Larian Studios
Posted By: Darth Rauko Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 09/10/20 03:15 PM
BG1 and 2 had a dynamic weather system with a day/night cycle that gave those games an amazing atmosphere.
Gorion is killed on a stormy night by Sarevok!
Go to the cemetery at night looking for Bodhi taking care of the vampires.






Will we have any of this in the game?






Posted By: malks Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 09/10/20 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by Darth Rauko
BG1 and 2 had a dynamic weather system with a day/night cycle that gave those games an amazing atmosphere.
Gorion is killed on a stormy night by Sarevok!
Go to the cemetery at night looking for Bodhi taking care of the vampires.






Will we have any of this in the game?








I would love that. But as it is designed right now I don't hink so.

Definetely should be considered by devs.

+1
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 09/10/20 03:18 PM
+1

As far as I know, threy dropped the idea for now, but one can always hope.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 09/10/20 04:08 PM
I think they're adamant about this due to problems with time passage and turn-based/multiplayer, but... I would so, so love this. Day/night cycles and weather have such a huge impact on a game's atmosphere. It was true even in older games like BG1/2 and Morrowind, but modern(ish) games just showed how amazing these elements can be. All those Witcher sunsets and Skyrim's bleak (or sunny!) weather. Makes the world much more believable, alive and immersive. There's so much lost potential here with BG3's impressive graphics. (Fog of war would diminish it a bit, though.)

And it's impactful in terms of gameplay, too. Wait until nightfall to infiltrate a camp of diurnal creatures or creep through a city unnoticed. Wait for daytime to explore a graveyard with a low-level party. One place can be wildly different during the day and during the night. Breath of the Wild had a great weather system, though of course it's a very different type of game.
Posted By: HeavensBells Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 09/10/20 04:12 PM
Can't weather change be only cosmetic without actual time passage? For example even an option in the settings in which you could choose to enable and even set a time for irl time passed for the cycle. For example I'd like a 2 irl hours playing the game to be a full cycle only to get from dawn till dusk, and some weather like rain or snow in a random amount of time.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 09/10/20 04:15 PM
Originally Posted by HeavensBells
Can't weather change be only cosmetic without actual time passage? For example even an option in the settings in which you could choose to enable and even set a time for irl time passed for the cycle. For example I'd like a 2 irl hours playing the game to be a full cycle only to get from dawn till dusk, and some weather like rain or snow in a random amount of time.


I guess that's exactly what didn't work with the how the engine tracks time in contrast to how system time advances.
Posted By: azarhal Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 09/10/20 04:23 PM
The game does have a dynamic weather system. When I entered the Owlbear cave with my warlock it was sunny, but when I left it after dealing with what was inside the cave, it started raining.

There is no night/days because the long rest is always at night between the adventuring days.
Posted By: HeavensBells Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 09/10/20 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by azarhal
The game does have a dynamic weather system. When I entered the Owlbear cave with my warlock it was sunny, but when I left it after dealing with what was inside the cave, it started raining.

There is no night/days because the long rest is always at night between the adventuring days.


Well this looks like the motto we have to pull a all nighter: "It ain't never tomorrow if I haven't slept yet"
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 09/10/20 04:28 PM
I THINK the time passage issue could be solved in a couple of different ways, but I have no confidence in my ability to estimate how viable this is.

One way (perhaps a crude one) would be to measure time passage by "not in TB party member(s) time flow". If it makes sense. Or the opposite, stop/slow time passage (in terms of time of the day) to match characters currently in TB. TB, FTB and mixed-mode party make the game world function in a weird temporal shift anyway, so I don't think it would make it worse. This would be sooort of similar to your suggested real world time passage, in that it would unify all party members' time.

I do realise that fully implementing day/night cycle and weather would be a massive amount of work, but imo it would do wonders for the game. So much more reactivity. Rain douses flames. Wind dispels clouds quicker. And let's not forget: Larian have underlined the significance of light/shadow in the game, and those systems would add so much depth to it.

To add to that, it would give a strategic layer to rests - perhaps limiting long rests to 1/day on higher/"survival" difficulties.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 09/10/20 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by azarhal
There is no night/days because the long rest is always at night between the adventuring days.


True... ok, then they could at least give us the option to say, rest during the day, though. Then the cycle wouldn't be dynamic, of course, but we at least could enjoy the benefits of night time gameplay.
Posted By: HeavensBells Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 09/10/20 04:32 PM
I
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
I THINK the time passage issue could be solved in a couple of different ways, but I have no confidence in my ability to estimate how viable this is.

One way (perhaps a crude one) would be to measure time passage by "not in TB party member(s) time flow". If it makes sense. Or the opposite, stop/slow time passage (in terms of time of the day) to match characters currently in TB. TB, FTB and mixed-mode party make the game world function in a weird temporal shift anyway, so I don't think it would make it worse. This would be sooort of similar to your suggested real world time passage, in that it would unify all party members' time.

I do realise that fully implementing day/night cycle and weather would be a massive amount of work, but imo it would do wonders for the game. So much more reactivity. Rain douses flames. Wind dispels clouds quicker. And let's not forget: Larian have underlined the significance of light/shadow in the game, and those systems would add so much depth to it.

To add to that, it would give a strategic layer to rests - perhaps limiting long rests to 1/day on higher/"survival" difficulties.


Great points I'd also add that, if you've chosen to play as a Astarion or a Drow, how are we gonna walk around in the sunlight when the tadpole is removed? Or is it never going to be removed at all?

Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 09/10/20 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by HeavensBells
I
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
I THINK the time passage issue could be solved in a couple of different ways, but I have no confidence in my ability to estimate how viable this is.

One way (perhaps a crude one) would be to measure time passage by "not in TB party member(s) time flow". If it makes sense. Or the opposite, stop/slow time passage (in terms of time of the day) to match characters currently in TB. TB, FTB and mixed-mode party make the game world function in a weird temporal shift anyway, so I don't think it would make it worse. This would be sooort of similar to your suggested real world time passage, in that it would unify all party members' time.

I do realise that fully implementing day/night cycle and weather would be a massive amount of work, but imo it would do wonders for the game. So much more reactivity. Rain douses flames. Wind dispels clouds quicker. And let's not forget: Larian have underlined the significance of light/shadow in the game, and those systems would add so much depth to it.

To add to that, it would give a strategic layer to rests - perhaps limiting long rests to 1/day on higher/"survival" difficulties.


Great points I'd also add that, if you've chosen to play as a Astarion or a Drow, how are we gonna walk around in the sunlight when the tadpole is removed? Or is it never going to be removed at all?



Probably not... it's kinda like being a Baal spawn. A gimmick to drive the story and explain special, homebrew powers. The final decision our character will probably make will be to either a) remove the tadpole or b) become an illithid elder brain, or something, but no matter the outcome, the story will most likely be over right after that.
Posted By: HeavensBells Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 09/10/20 04:48 PM
Well this kinda breaks the whole concept of Vampires and Drows dominating the night time, guess I'll have no drawback in those cases then.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 09/10/20 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by HeavensBells
I'd also add that, if you've chosen to play as a Astarion or a Drow, how are we gonna walk around in the sunlight when the tadpole is removed? Or is it never going to be removed at all?


This is just my speculation, but I think the tadpole might make some permanent changes. So removing it might take away psychic powers, but not some "passive" abilities, like sunlight sensitivity resistance.
Posted By: Darth Rauko Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 09/10/20 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester

And it's impactful in terms of gameplay, too. Wait until nightfall to infiltrate a camp of diurnal creatures or creep through a city unnoticed. Wait for daytime to explore a graveyard with a low-level party. One place can be wildly different during the day and during the night. Breath of the Wild had a great weather system, though of course it's a very different type of game.


[Linked Image]

Posted By: Horrorscope Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 09/10/20 09:41 PM
This is something they need to schedule time into their engine development team. If not for this game, for some iteration of their system in the future.
Posted By: Minsc1122 Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 09/10/20 11:35 PM
It was not in DOS2, why would they put it in Baldur Gate 3. x) Maybe BG4, it is probably way too late, the game is on the market after all.
My idea for this was, that they could have had a "cosmetic" visual weather day night cycle for separate areas, without a global clock...

Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 09/10/20 11:39 PM
Originally Posted by Minsc1122
It was not in DOS2, why would they put it in Baldur Gate 3...


Not an argument. This is no sequel to DOS...
Posted By: Minsc1122 Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 09/10/20 11:43 PM
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by Minsc1122
It was not in DOS2, why would they put it in Baldur Gate 3...


Not an argument. This is no sequel to DOS...


Just joking, it is irony.. smile
Posted By: Erwin Smith Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 12/10/20 12:21 AM
+1
BG1/2 also had random encounters at specific times.
I really want cycles, not a static world and and always sunny. frown
Posted By: largh Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 13/10/20 02:03 PM
+1 If not possible, make it always rainy night instead of sunny in the first region :P
Posted By: Tuco Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 13/10/20 02:05 PM
I'm all for it.
As I said elsewhere even a "mediocre" implementation would be better than nothing.
I know Larian already said this featue is out of the question, but in the ideal land of milk, honey and dreams I'd take it.
Posted By: Raiyan Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 13/10/20 02:19 PM
I posted on another Thread discussing a similar topic to which I've replied. I'm simply going to quote my response here as it's the same issue basically and feel like it could potentially work to add a bit of extra atmosphere to the game. Though, now that I think about it, I remember actually seeing this in the game when moving from the Grove to the Forest, for example. It's just a bit more subtle.

Originally Posted by Raiyan
Originally Posted by largh
Originally Posted by Raiyan
Is it just a visual thing? Or does it affect gameplay?

Light influences how we perceive things. Those vampire encounters on a graveyard in BG2 were epic because they took place in the night. Comparable graveyard scene in D:OS2 was not memorable because it took place in the middle of the day or at least you would not have to time it and wait for the night.


I see what you mean and I agree with you on that. Lighting and effects can certainly enhance the mood and atmosphere. One way they could implement this feature would be through post-processing effects. I'm a huge Guild Wars fan and I grew up with that game and, because every map was its own instance, they didn't feel the need to implement a day/night cycle. Instead, they added these small post-processing effects throughout parts of the map, so that upon entering that area the sky would change to appear darker/brighter, red/green, etc., simulating the effects of day/night cycle or weather and enhancing the overall atmosphere. The feeling you got when all of a sudden the sky turned dark with clouds and in front of you appeared a skeleton necromancer was palpable.

It's not an expensive feature and I think this could work in BG3 as a workaround.
Posted By: KingWilhelm Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 13/10/20 02:33 PM
I think the visual effects would be easier to make. A functional day and night cycle for towns folk (and maybe enemies and wildlife) would consume more time: How would it effect quests, encounters and mechanics ? Can you steal thinks easier at night from sleeping npcs, from drunk npcs? Can you get quests from people sleeping in their bed or will they call the guards an in Skyrim? (Are there even enough beds for all the npcs?) How are they moving during the day? Can you influence the weather with spells?

Don't get me wrong I really would like it and I think it would improve the game (better immersion, more ways to solve quests).
Posted By: svig Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 14/10/20 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
And it's impactful in terms of gameplay, too. Wait until nightfall to infiltrate a camp of diurnal creatures or creep through a city unnoticed. Wait for daytime to explore a graveyard with a low-level party. One place can be wildly different during the day and during the night. Breath of the Wild had a great weather system, though of course it's a very different type of game.


Indeed
Posted By: HYPERBOLOCO Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 14/10/20 07:41 AM
The more I play this game the more I believe it's been let down by Larian trying to merge DOS into D&D. Imagine what they could have done with those extra resources if they just stuck with 5e.
Posted By: alexawow2006 Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 14/10/20 08:45 AM
Its strange that 10 years ago they could make night day cycle and on the new super duper engine of Larian they cant...
Posted By: Tuco Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 14/10/20 08:49 AM
Originally Posted by alexawow2006
Its strange that 10 years ago they could make night day cycle and on the new super duper engine of Larian they cant...


Don't be fooled. In terms of dynamic lighting etc Larian's artists and programmers could probably have the feature working in matter of days.
It's the scripting part (having NPCs doing different things or being in different place on day or night) that would take most of the work and that they don't seem to be willing to embark into.


Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 14/10/20 09:04 AM
+1 and I think many players would enjoy that...

(Reddit poll before the EA begins)
https://www.reddit.com/r/baldursgat..._medium=android_app&utm_source=share

But I don't really know how they could handle that because it looks like there is no time management in their games exept a on/off mode.
Time just doesn't exist and every time related things use tricks (i.e "after the 10th long rest", "after this quest").
Not really sure they can even add something related to real time but anyway, I don't really know how that works.

Weather and D/N cycle would be awesome and would add a GREAT value to such a game.
This is one of the biggest things I'd love them to work on during the EA.
Posted By: Infiltrator Day/Night cycle? - 14/10/20 11:37 AM
Has anything regarding this been said? I think it was a pretty neat thing in previous games, day and night changing things like creatures who are present, affecting races, skills, items etc.

DoS2 was obviously built without this, but I think it has a much more important conotation in dnd.

However I am sure it is a big deal to work this through - stealth for example is based on cast shadows, so depending on how the team implemented light/shadow detection.

Based on that, I find it likely that Larian's decision on this had already been established, if not announced.
Posted By: Dark_Ansem Re: Day/Night cycle? - 14/10/20 12:15 PM
Yes, they said they couldn't be bothered so not gonna implement it
Posted By: spaceweed10™ Re: Day/Night cycle? - 14/10/20 12:43 PM
Originally Posted by Infiltrator
Has anything regarding this been said? I think it was a pretty neat thing in previous games, day and night changing things like creatures who are present, affecting races, skills, items etc.

DoS2 was obviously built without this, but I think it has a much more important conotation in dnd.

However I am sure it is a big deal to work this through - stealth for example is based on cast shadows, so depending on how the team implemented light/shadow detection.

Based on that, I find it likely that Larian's decision on this had already been established, if not announced.


Too much work - I'd rather have content. You can go into the Underdark if you don't like sunlight wink
Posted By: IrenicusBG3 Re: Day/Night cycle? - 14/10/20 01:20 PM
I hope they revisit the idea now they have even more funding.

It enhances the immersion, plus stories are more dramatic at night.
Posted By: zeel Re: Day/Night cycle? - 14/10/20 01:21 PM
Day/night cycles are already an incredible workload for just one, somewhat big, map. Considering the fact that this game is going to be absolutely huge, with a lot of different places to visit, implementing day/night cycles is a whole lot of work for something that's not really important to the gameplay.
Posted By: IrenicusBG3 Re: Day/Night cycle? - 14/10/20 01:28 PM
Originally Posted by zeel
Day/night cycles are already an incredible workload for just one, somewhat big, map. Considering the fact that this game is going to be absolutely huge, with a lot of different places to visit, implementing day/night cycles is a whole lot of work for something that's not really important to the gameplay.


Many huge games have D/N cycle.

Immersion is something that should not be dismissed in a RPG. I think this is where Larian needs to improve.


Posted By: xMardeRx Re: Day/Night cycle? - 14/10/20 01:37 PM
Originally Posted by zeel
Day/night cycles are already an incredible workload for just one, somewhat big, map. Considering the fact that this game is going to be absolutely huge, with a lot of different places to visit, implementing day/night cycles is a whole lot of work for something that's not really important to the gameplay.


It is of outmost importance, bandits , vampire's and ghost show up at night, Vampire's get huge buffs while at nigh.
Nights from tactical perspective are of outmost importance as shadows and the darkness make it much harder to hit and see you for sneaking past.
Even for RP and Infiltraten nights are of outmost importance.
Weather effects are also need and the benefits and drawbacks of rain and thunder

The only reason why they don't do it its because they want force that crappy under dark and surface world in one map thing. To bad a loading screen for the under dark and surface world will be necessary to keep them separated as apparently is to hard for the devs cant be bothered to do there programing job. Oh boi let us show two absolutely different environments together one of eternal darknes and one of eternal light, nobody will ever notice that its not raining never gets dark.
I am sorry but this utter terrible game design. Only because nobody could figure out how to make multiplier related loading screens and mechanics for different biomes and environments.

Drop the MP part or over work it I dont care about loading screens, they are welcome bathroom brake.
Posted By: Darth Rauko Re: Day/Night cycle? - 14/10/20 01:39 PM
up up up up up up up up
http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=88944&Number=683934
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: Day/Night cycle? - 14/10/20 02:06 PM
Didn't BG1 and BG2 have day night cycles and weather?? It even influenced events, quests, some spells etc...Remember that vampire only came out at night in the graveyard, the ghost boy, guards asking why your out so late, different random encounters, the fences of Athkatla who work for the Shadow Thieves, come out with their fancy magical goods, too smile.

Kind of a big deal not having this kind of BG stuff in. Instead we have cinematic dialogue with dicerolls...I guess.
Posted By: SeeJay Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 14/10/20 02:22 PM
Twould be nice if they'd take the extra scripting effort to have day\night cycles. Would help the world feel more immersive.
In BG2 It even influenced events, quests, stats, some spells etc...Remember that vampire only came out at night in the graveyard, the ghost boy, guards asking why your out so late, different types of random encounters, the fences of Athkatla who work for the Shadow Thieves, come out with their fancy magical goods, Jan busy growing turnips wink

Kind of a big deal not having this kind of BG stuff in. Instead we have camping and cinematic dialogue with dicerolls ...
Posted By: Alodar Re: Day/Night cycle? - 14/10/20 04:21 PM
BioWare jettisoned the Day/Night Cycle when they launched TOB.

I spent a lot of time on their forums back then, back when BioWare still had their own forums, and they explained that they felt the Day/Night cycle didn't really add anything and more often than not you had players standing around waiting for it to become day so they could interact with the folks they needed to interact with. (It also spawned ridiculous situations like traveling from one map to another and it taking 78 hours and you show up exhausted when obviously you would have rested on your journey.)

It really wouldn't be a BG game if they included a day/night cycle as the original developers of BG decided that it wasn't worth it over 19 years ago. It would be a huge slap in the face to the lessons that BioWare learned.
Posted By: Alodar Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 14/10/20 04:35 PM
BioWare jettisoned the Day/Night Cycle when they launched TOB.

I spent a lot of time on their forums back then, back when BioWare still had their own forums, and they explained that they felt the Day/Night cycle didn't really add anything and more often than not you had players standing around waiting for it to become day so they could interact with the folks they needed to interact with. (It also spawned ridiculous situations like traveling from one map to another and it taking 78 hours and you show up exhausted when obviously you would have rested on your journey.)

It really wouldn't be a BG game if they included a day/night cycle as the original developers of BG decided that it wasn't worth it over 19 years ago. It would be a huge slap in the face to the lessons that BioWare learned.
Posted By: Frumpkis Re: Day/Night cycle? - 14/10/20 04:48 PM
I think it's a reasonable trade-off to not have a day/night cycle. You lose a few things like enemies tied to the night cycle, and you can't have quests requiring things like "meet X at midnight by the docks." But then the devs don't have to program a sleep cycle for merchants either. There is nothing sillier than seeing merchants standing around at 3am ready to sell you stuff.

I do like day/night cycles in games like Witcher 3, but that's more of an immersive simulation style of Action/RPG, and probably had a much larger budget to work with.

I'd like to see more weather, but that might mess with Larian's heavy use of surface hazards. Can't have flames or acid everywhere on the ground if it's raining or snowing. Although, I think I remember at least one zone like that in the DOS 1 game.
Posted By: xMardeRx Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 14/10/20 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by Alodar
BioWare jettisoned the Day/Night Cycle when they launched TOB.

I spent a lot of time on their forums back then, back when BioWare still had their own forums, and they explained that they felt the Day/Night cycle didn't really add anything and more often than not you had players standing around waiting for it to become day so they could interact with the folks they needed to interact with. (It also spawned ridiculous situations like traveling from one map to another and it taking 78 hours and you show up exhausted when obviously you would have rested on your journey.)

It really wouldn't be a BG game if they included a day/night cycle as the original developers of BG decided that it wasn't worth it over 19 years ago. It would be a huge slap in the face to the lessons that BioWare learned.

Bioware did not learn a thing, there games got worse over time not better. I wont touch even one of there products. Same goes for elders scrolls sires that only got much much worse.
When will game designer bafoons learn that streamlining is crap. The theory they learn is usless.

Day night, weather effects are all important for quest, immersion and it only depends on the game designer to implement and use them but a lazy incompetent one wont even bother. Its always sunny in California. To bad the game is not set there.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 14/10/20 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by Alodar
BioWare jettisoned the Day/Night Cycle when they launched TOB.

I spent a lot of time on their forums back then, back when BioWare still had their own forums, and they explained that they felt the Day/Night cycle didn't really add anything and more often than not you had players standing around waiting for it to become day so they could interact with the folks they needed to interact with. (It also spawned ridiculous situations like traveling from one map to another and it taking 78 hours and you show up exhausted when obviously you would have rested on your journey.)

It really wouldn't be a BG game if they included a day/night cycle as the original developers of BG decided that it wasn't worth it over 19 years ago. It would be a huge slap in the face to the lessons that BioWare learned.


I would beg to question whether they learned the correct lessons.

One could also say "BioWare learned the lesson that cRPGs are shit and therefore abandoned the genre after DA:O."
Posted By: grysqrl Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 14/10/20 05:35 PM
I would really love a day/night cycle, and passage of time in general. This world doesn't feel alive to me - every NPC and their problems just vanish when I'm not watching them. I would really love for there to be a more meaningful difference between wandering around to get a quick scout of everything on the map and rushing in because we need to rescue those hostages right now!
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 14/10/20 05:37 PM
This is a strange lesson because many players arround the world definitely think that the D/N cycle + meteo add a great value to the old games. Maybe that's not the majority, Idk.
Posted By: Dark_Ansem Re: Day/Night cycle? - 14/10/20 05:45 PM
When did exactly Bioware jettison D/N cycle with Throne of Bhaal?
Posted By: HustleCat Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 14/10/20 06:16 PM
+1
This would be awesome

I think they could at least attach a day cycle to short rests.

Use 1 short rest, the lighting turns more orange as the sun beings to set

Use a 2nd short rest, it starts to get dark, map is more moonlit now

Random chance of weather for each of these time sections, but then you'll get into a big debate on surface area effects with the ground being all wet
Posted By: Alodar Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 14/10/20 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by xMardeRx
Originally Posted by Alodar
BioWare jettisoned the Day/Night Cycle when they launched TOB.

I spent a lot of time on their forums back then, back when BioWare still had their own forums, and they explained that they felt the Day/Night cycle didn't really add anything and more often than not you had players standing around waiting for it to become day so they could interact with the folks they needed to interact with. (It also spawned ridiculous situations like traveling from one map to another and it taking 78 hours and you show up exhausted when obviously you would have rested on your journey.)

It really wouldn't be a BG game if they included a day/night cycle as the original developers of BG decided that it wasn't worth it over 19 years ago. It would be a huge slap in the face to the lessons that BioWare learned.

Bioware did not learn a thing, there games got worse over time not better. I wont touch even one of there products. Same goes for elders scrolls sires that only got much much worse.


Once BioWare was purchased by Electronic Arts their games certainly went downhill.

For those who enjoy a Day/Night cycle more power to you. If you think it would add to the game -- good for you.
However those arguing that no Day/Night cycle means it's not BG are factually incorrect. The BG franchise dropped the Day/Night cycle with Throne of Bhaal. Using a Day/Night cycle in BG3 would go against the lessons learned from the BG developers.
Posted By: Alodar Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 14/10/20 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Alodar
BioWare jettisoned the Day/Night Cycle when they launched TOB.

I spent a lot of time on their forums back then, back when BioWare still had their own forums, and they explained that they felt the Day/Night cycle didn't really add anything and more often than not you had players standing around waiting for it to become day so they could interact with the folks they needed to interact with. (It also spawned ridiculous situations like traveling from one map to another and it taking 78 hours and you show up exhausted when obviously you would have rested on your journey.)

It really wouldn't be a BG game if they included a day/night cycle as the original developers of BG decided that it wasn't worth it over 19 years ago. It would be a huge slap in the face to the lessons that BioWare learned.


I would beg to question whether they learned the correct lessons.

One could also say "BioWare learned the lesson that cRPGs are shit and therefore abandoned the genre after DA:O."


Once BioWare was purchased by Electronic Arts their games certainly went downhill.

For those who enjoy a Day/Night cycle more power to you. If you think it would add to the game -- good for you.
However those arguing that no Day/Night cycle means it's not BG are factually incorrect. The BG franchise dropped the Day/Night cycle with Throne of Bhaal. Using a Day/Night cycle in BG3 would go against the lessons learned from the BG developers.
Posted By: Hachina Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 14/10/20 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by HeavensBells
I
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
I THINK the time passage issue could be solved in a couple of different ways, but I have no confidence in my ability to estimate how viable this is.

One way (perhaps a crude one) would be to measure time passage by "not in TB party member(s) time flow". If it makes sense. Or the opposite, stop/slow time passage (in terms of time of the day) to match characters currently in TB. TB, FTB and mixed-mode party make the game world function in a weird temporal shift anyway, so I don't think it would make it worse. This would be sooort of similar to your suggested real world time passage, in that it would unify all party members' time.

I do realise that fully implementing day/night cycle and weather would be a massive amount of work, but imo it would do wonders for the game. So much more reactivity. Rain douses flames. Wind dispels clouds quicker. And let's not forget: Larian have underlined the significance of light/shadow in the game, and those systems would add so much depth to it.

To add to that, it would give a strategic layer to rests - perhaps limiting long rests to 1/day on higher/"survival" difficulties.


Great points I'd also add that, if you've chosen to play as a Astarion or a Drow, how are we gonna walk around in the sunlight when the tadpole is removed? Or is it never going to be removed at all?


Drow can go outside. It just their gear that get dusted. Its takes a long time for them to accomodate to sunlight, though. Its hurts their eyes.
Apologies for the mild necro, but I would like to add my +1 for a day/night cycle that affects gameplay, as well as dynamic wheather (which could also affect gameplay: rain could douse fire; snow could stick to the ground and make it slippery, fog could reduce visual range, etc..)

The original games also had different music themes for day and night, which were really variations on the same pattern/progression. I thought that added a lot to the atmosphere, and it was one of those touches that really made the games feel like AAA titles back when they were released.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 16/10/20 04:47 PM
It's crazy BG1 and 2 had this but the game that comes out in 2020 doesn't.

It adds so much to the atmosphere when night falls in the wilderness, or it starts raining. The empty streets of Baldur's Gate at night after a busy day... The world becomes alive.
Posted By: fkhaller Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 16/10/20 05:26 PM
So I see a lot of comments about graveyards needing a day / night cycle so why don't they do just that. For certain areas in the game that requires it (cities, graveyards) they introduce a day night cycle and others they do not. That would be a compromise I'd be willing to take, even if it was only the largest graveyard that had it. If they could do it just for city of Baulder's Gate my expectations would be exceeded.
Posted By: Pah Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 16/10/20 06:15 PM
They went "Dragon Age Origin" with the camp you go to to rest at night and talk with companion you do not take in your party.

I also much prefer the Baldur's Gate way with Day/Night and weather cycles, and the camp you dress where ever you can
sometimes leading to dangerous sleepless nights.

I don't know how they can manage the other companions in this case, the party limit of 4 doesn't help.
Posted By: Kabeidon Day/Night Cycle and Weathers. - 20/10/20 06:38 PM
This is a must on any RPG , i hope the devs consider it.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Day/Night Cycle and Weathers. - 20/10/20 06:39 PM
Aaand another recurring thread.
Seriously people, is it too much to use a search function for once?
Maybe we could have a discussion about a single topic that could go on for more than four replies, instead of fifteen threads with one reply each.
Posted By: sinogy Day and night cycle is needed - 21/10/20 07:19 PM
I am sure Larian will add day and night cycle to the game. I mean it is 2020 and thinking about a serious cRPG without night time is absurd.

Also, I red somewhere in the forum some one suggested random encounters and attacks at camp at night. It is a wonderful idea especially when you camp in more dangerous areas further in story.

However, camping system in EA is terrible and totally immersion breaker. I mean having the ability to have a long rest wherever and whenever you wish after a fight is just cheating.
Posted By: Emrikol Re: Day and night cycle is needed - 21/10/20 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
I am sure Larian will add day and night cycle to the game. I mean it is 2020 and thinking about a serious cRPG without night time is absurd.

Also, I red somewhere in the forum some one suggested random encounters and attacks at camp at night. It is a wonderful idea especially when you camp in more dangerous areas further in story.

However, camping system in EA is terrible and totally immersion breaker. I mean having the ability to have a long rest wherever and whenever you wish after a fight is just cheating.

Rests need a reworking, yes. I doubt they will remove the transport to and from the campground, unfortunately. Day/night isn’t happening.
Posted By: sinogy Re: Day and night cycle is needed - 21/10/20 07:35 PM

Rests need a reworking, yes. I doubt they will remove the transport to and from the campground, unfortunately. Day/night isn’t happening.[/quote]

How do you know day/night is not gonna happen?
Posted By: Emrikol Re: Day and night cycle is needed - 21/10/20 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy


How do you know day/night is not gonna happen?

They explicitly said as much (AMA I think)
Posted By: TimVanBeek Re: Day and night cycle is needed - 21/10/20 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by Emrikol
Rests need a reworking, yes.


Yes, but maybe that topic deserves its own, dedicated thread...
Posted By: Emrikol Re: Day and night cycle is needed - 21/10/20 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by TimVanBeek
Originally Posted by Emrikol
Rests need a reworking, yes.


Yes, but maybe that topic deserves its own, dedicated thread...

There are many
Posted By: sinogy Re: Day and night cycle is needed - 21/10/20 11:38 PM
Originally Posted by TimVanBeek
Originally Posted by Emrikol
Rests need a reworking, yes.


Yes, but maybe that topic deserves its own, dedicated thread...


A lot of things deserve their own topic about this game. I don't know where to begin!


Man, I am sad I put too much faith on this game. I was hoping it'd be a great DnD game. It is a big let down. This game is just DOS with some DnD mechanics.
Posted By: mr_planescapist Day/night cycles - 22/10/20 12:27 AM
Just adds so much more "Baldur's gate" atmosphere. In BG2 many quests and events were tied to this. The nightime sound effects also were incredible.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Posted By: Xeneize Re: Day/night cycles - 22/10/20 12:29 AM
I would love to see a day/night cycle myself smile
Posted By: ArmouredHedgehog Re: Day/night cycles - 22/10/20 01:01 AM
That would be nice. I would also appreciate some bad weather.
Posted By: lanceromancer Re: Day/night cycles - 22/10/20 02:23 AM
Yes, please. Also weather as someone else suggested.
Posted By: LukasPrism Re: Day/night cycles - 22/10/20 02:42 AM
I’d really love this but Larian already said it’s not going to happen. Too much work to set up activity cycles for all the NPCs. Maybe BG4!
Posted By: svig Re: Day/night cycles - 22/10/20 02:50 AM
It would be awesome
Posted By: Madoric Re: Day/night cycles - 22/10/20 02:53 AM
I agreed! I hope they add it in, I'll wait as long as needed for them to implement everything that NEED to make this game the best it can be and since they have no official release date atm ( "when it's done").
Posted By: Vile Re: Day/night cycles - 22/10/20 04:16 AM
This would be a great addition, though I remember them considering this for Divinity Original Sin (the first one specifically) and deciding that it was not feasible; creating specific schedules for all NPCs in the game based on day/night was the deal breaker if I remember correctly.

Posted By: Tuco Re: Day/night cycles - 22/10/20 04:28 AM
Once again, I would absolutely love it, but months ago Larian sounded quite categorical about the fact that they don't want to do it.
Posted By: IrenicusBG3 Re: Day/night cycles - 22/10/20 04:29 AM
They have money and manpower to do it. It is huge deal for immersion.

Tactical adventures with a team of 17 people put it on Solasta.

I would be ok even if they had did a binary system like the same way you choose to go to camp but insteady switch to night.

Or being able to leave the camp at night.

The Goblin battle should be at night.

Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: Day/night cycles - 22/10/20 04:47 AM
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
They have money and manpower to do it. It is huge deal for immersion.

Tactical adventures with a team of 17 people put it on Solasta.

I would be ok even if they had did a binary system like the same way you choose to go to camp but insteady switch to night.

Or being able to leave the camp at night.

The Goblin battle should be at night.



My thought was the same, keep it simple, no in game live transitions. When camping or at an Inn have an option to leave at night. But yes it needs tons of new scripts for NPC not to be there, cinematic dialogues, quests etc...probably way to late for Larian to change this.
Crazy that BG2 was able to pull it off convincingly 20 years ago. Even the passage of time had consequences on quests (some quests even can cause party members to leave permanently if you don’t do it soon enough).
Not having this feels very Larian... clocks are non existent in their worlds smile
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Day/night cycles - 22/10/20 04:54 AM
+1 but it looks they don't want to please the players about that.
Posted By: FenrisC Re: Day/night cycles - 22/10/20 12:38 PM
No need to put specific routines for NPCs ; they could behave like in daytime, just cycle the lighting and atmosphere.

This plus bad weather are very important for immersion and sense of time going on, even it's only cosmetic it will add plenty to general feeling.

Plus things like rain could also affect items and surface behavior like fire being easier extinguished, creating mud and water puddles to be frozen, etc.

Things that can affect battle outcomes and add or remove options. Offering more stealth to anyone, reducing visibility (game already able to deal with smoke and fog), all little gameplay things that will greatly add to gameplay variations as well (and add replayability for instance), offering more variables in the surroudings.
Posted By: dza101 Re: Day/night cycles - 22/10/20 01:05 PM
it would cause problems ... right now some characters can be paused in combat while others can walk around freely. would time to progressing for unfrozen characters but frozen for the others?
Posted By: Corren Re: Day/night cycles - 22/10/20 01:09 PM
Seeing how great a job they're doing at implementing night vision in the game, a day/night cycle would be amazing for sure!
Posted By: RGiskard19 Re: Day/night cycles - 22/10/20 01:28 PM
I would love to see day/night cycle and having to do a long rest and eat something or suffer a level of exhaution everyday
Posted By: ILoveCheeses Re: Day/night cycles - 22/10/20 01:39 PM
I would like to see day/night cycle for several reasons.

1 - immersion
2 - giver me more versitility for stealth approach
3 - parties with low darkvision have more i sentive to go to camp at night
4 - i could finally stop seeing Astarion act like he's dying of poison and complain about sunlight every 5 minutes.
Posted By: Darth Rauko Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 25/10/20 03:37 AM
up
looking for more opinions
Posted By: Tuco Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 25/10/20 03:49 AM
What is vaguely bizarre for me is that Larian claimed that "day/night was going to too much work to do right" (but hey, Larian, I would have been fine even just with day/night done just ok, frankly) and then they are now wasting their time and efforts to build up this a fairly convoluted "camp system" and all the rules for it, that even at its peak will probably always stay a poor replacement of the former.
Posted By: Vile Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 25/10/20 04:25 AM
I am definitely all for Day/Night Cycles and Dynamic Weather, I just highly doubt Larian will add them. Ultimately I get the feeling that their aim is not to create an immersive, open & dynamic world, but instead to tell a story and let the player influence parts of it. An area won't have a dark and stormy atmosphere unless it serves the story, the same for day/night.

I agree with those that say the lack of these features makes the world feel less alive, it makes things feel much more artificial.
Posted By: Topgoon Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 25/10/20 05:23 AM
100% down for it. I think that aside from simulating a more immersive world, the day/night cycle can actually add an entirely new gameplay element into certain quests.


Giving us the option to do certain quests at night - i.e. ones where you're stealing an item, or sneaking into a certain location makes a tons of sense. It'll also add an additional element for dark-vision races.
Posted By: CMF Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 25/10/20 05:27 AM
I have actually found day night cycles become irritating to me in current games. It is constantly cycling and I just keep exploring having to deal with low visibility periodically.

If a day night system should exist, it should be based on user decision to explore at night versus day. Beyond that it is just a cosmetic. Also with the inclusion in BG3 of darkness lowering chance to hit, night cycles make combat harder for non-nightvision characters, so that is another conscious decision by Larian to not have cycling day/night impacting combat.

We have to think how it impacts the game as a whole and not just "it would be fun if".
Posted By: Abits Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 25/10/20 05:38 AM
Originally Posted by CMF
I have actually found day night cycles become irritating to me in current games. It is constantly cycling and I just keep exploring having to deal with low visibility periodically.

If a day night system should exist, it should be based on user decision to explore at night versus day. Beyond that it is just a cosmetic. Also with the inclusion in BG3 of darkness lowering chance to hit, night cycles make combat harder for non-nightvision characters, so that is another conscious decision by Larian to not have cycling day/night impacting combat.

We have to think how it impacts the game as a whole and not just "it would be fun if".

I felt the same about the system even in og BG. The only games who ever did anything interesting with day/night circle were the elder scrolls games, specifically the option to become a vampire in these games
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 25/10/20 06:35 AM
Originally Posted by CMF
I have actually found day night cycles become irritating to me in current games. It is constantly cycling and I just keep exploring having to deal with low visibility periodically


Just rest... Many adventurers don't like traveling at night wink
Posted By: CMF Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 25/10/20 06:55 AM
Then comes the mechanics. Should day night cycles rotate every 10 minutes? 20 minutes? an hour? If it is too frequent then you are constantly resting, if it is too far between, people will be irritated that it takes too long. I really think a good implementation is to compromise and allow users to cycle the time by choice and adventure at night or in the day based on camp decisions.

Some quests can happen at night, it would be easier to act as a thief or assassin at night, add a new aspect of strategy with npc patterns of life. Less people moving around but more roaming guards, permit ambushes for certain encounters, etc.
Posted By: SouthAfrica Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 25/10/20 08:12 AM
That would be sweet, aren't there any mechanics / interactivity in D&D tied to day/night cycles too?

Anyone know if the DOS2/Larian engine supports global dynamic lighting?

Jeez, imagine mechanics tied to making contact with specific shadows, that would be rad.
Posted By: jayn23 Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 25/10/20 09:28 AM
While i would love Day/Night and weather cycles id like to start with a modest request of only weather cycles since they dont really need to do to much extra scripting, only check if is raining/lightly/downpour whatever..
And it would increase immersion and just the cool factor by a lot.

Id love for day/Night cycle as well but if that involves scripting each NPC in the game and extra quests and such maybe ay least add it without extra scripting just for the cool factor and specific quests like vampire related stuff
Posted By: Corren The issue of the eternal day - 27/10/20 11:21 PM
D&D is balanced largely around the question of resource management, namely day&night cycle.

When playing, this is handled by the DM along with the players through narration. But in a game like BG3, it becomes a little more difficult.

One issue I encountered while playing was the ever present feeling of cheating the game anytime I pressed the "rest" button. Because yes, resting in D&D is ALSO a resource to be managed.

And so, since I can rest anytime I want, reset my spells after every fight, engage every ambush with full hp with no cost whatsoever and succeed this way much more often... Well I feel like I deserve none of these successes.
"Well, then, just rest less often, you absolute inane QQ machine", you'll tell me (in more gentle words I hope). Your advice would be sane. But what do I gain by not resting? And what interval is the right one? Who decides? I have no DM to turn to, and the game gives me no obligation, no limitation, nothing to aim for. I just limped away from a fight against a horde of goblins, closed the makeshift door behind me and blew off the torches best I could. Now, surely, the goblins are looking inside every room to find me. But the magic button teleports me in a magical forest, where my magic campsite awaits, with weirdly uncomfortable-looking sleeping bags.
Right now, the campsite feels like it's nothing short of a level 6 "Druid Grove" spell or a level 7 "Mordenkainen Magnificent Mansion" spell. Only it's FAR better, as it's completely free and doesn't require casting time or anything.

Anyway, I'm belaboring the point. Bottom line is: it feels weird to not have days and nights. It causes me to second guess every single spellcast, leads me to feel like I don't deserve my successes and kinda breaks the spell&rest system a little bit. As it is, it's a poor way of managing resources.
Posted By: SerraSerra Re: The issue of the eternal day - 29/10/20 01:47 PM
+1 for Larian to at least consider adding some kind of day/night cycle.
For me it's more of a world building / immersion issue. It just feels stupid that everything is the same all the time, it's like as if the world is a theme park run by robots instead of being populated with what should be credible npc inhabitants that close their shops by night and either go sleep or get a drink in a tavern.

If they would add some kind of narrative reason for act1 to take place in eternal sunny afternoon I could live with it, but as it stands now it literally makes no sense to me.
It might make sense for a very good oriented party - as the day allows them to avoid certain light-averse creatures, but it certainly makes absolute no sense for a vampire spawn and priestess of Shar. It makes the whole 'evil' (or even 'unlawful' ) route unsatisfying. I'm especially worried for how this permanent noontime stuff will impact other area's and notably the city of BG or other larger settlements which imo will feel very static, artificial and forced because of the absence of day/night cycle also meaning there will be no 'activity' cycle, meaning the city wont be 'alive' but rather frozen in time at 12pm.

I am also unable to understand how WoTC agreed to this as the day/night , bad/good, dark/light thing seems a central idea of their world-building and it seems super weird to simply drop such an important element of what makes a world immersive and realistic. It feels ridiculous that Astarion and Shadowheart (it's even in her name ffs) would nicely go to bed once it gets dark. Especially considering the supposed urgency of the tadpole thingy and the fact that the act1 map is in fact very unsafe for travelers given the conflict with the goblins, it would make A LOT of narrative sense to simply travel during the night...

As it is now, I feel like having to watch Lord of the Rings, but instead of Frodo and Sam traveling trough Mordor, they are actually on the teletubbies while pretending to be in Mordor.

Only thing that gives me some hope is that I believe people at Larian are aware of this and maybe even willing to do something about it given day/night cycle was one of their DO goals that didn't make it. Given the record sales BG3 made in EA alone I really hope they address this as it's a bit of an embarrassment not being able to deliver on a feature which a) already existed in the 20 year old prequels and b) is an undeniable aspect of any modern game that has a world exploration aspect to it (RDRD2 , Assassins creed series, kingdom come, etc).

Please, also don't see this as a bad spirited critique, I love the game, I realize it's Larian's child and in the end it's up to them, I just wanted to emphasize the importance of the issue for me.
Posted By: Aurgelmir Re: The issue of the eternal day - 29/10/20 01:54 PM
I'm very much in agreement about the issue of long resting all the time. It takes away a huge portion of the balance of 5e when you only get one short rest per long rest (and short rests are handled poorly too)

It would improve the game if there was a limit to how often you could long rest. And maybe tie "camp scenes" to short rests too. That way we can still go to camp, and get the scenes, without long resting all the darn time.

They should bring in the short rest mechanics of hit dice etc as well. (and maybe reducing the number of consumables that restore health somehow). I'm sure people will find another way to scum around any constrants though, but right now the game is poorly balanced around long rests..
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: The issue of the eternal day - 29/10/20 08:20 PM
I've said quite a lot on this topic in other threads concerning day/night cycle and weather, so I'll just add this: it makes the world so much more believable and alive. Immersive. I don't know how many people here played it, but for me implementation of time passage was great in the first Witcher game. It was very much eurojank, but it had an amazing atmosphere, and a part of that was how the world changed with time. A lively (if very troubled and quite grim) city became different at night - it made you uneasy and wary of whatever creature may have been prowling the night. City outskirts, populated by hard-working people during the day, turned dangerous after nightfall, when all sorts of monsters (sometimes in human form) would crawl out. The music (excellent in this game) reflected this very well. And the weather - once it started raining, all the people rushed to flock under any roof they could find. Townswomen took joy in spitefully wishing it would rain on their neighbours' laundry. The world felt alive, not as a setpiece - and it was a game that had to overcome many technical challanges.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: The issue of the eternal day - 29/10/20 08:25 PM
I agree.

Not sure how it work, but I guess it could be "easy" to add a cosmetic D/N cycle (i.e after 30 IG minutes, an animation/cinematics pops up and when the load is done, you're in the world at night).
It would add a great value to the game even if it's only cosmetic.

Resting and ressources management is another problem that has to be solved a way or another.
Posted By: Riandor Re: The issue of the eternal day - 29/10/20 08:26 PM
Could we at least get some weather?!
Posted By: Nicottia Re: The issue of the eternal day - 29/10/20 09:14 PM
Yes, +1 to OP and everyone who wants a damn day/night cycle and weather. As of now, even though the world Larian crafted is visually stunning, it feels too stale, too safe.

You've got no idea how disappointing it is to rest with the knowledge you won't be beset by bandits, or ambushed by any other beastie out there. As of now, there is absolutely no danger in resting after every fight. Why would you short rest when long rest is much better? It all needs some rebalancing. Not to mention racial abilities like darkvision (or the spell) could actually become useful outside of dungeons/the Underdark.

But the biggest disappointment of it all is: Larian has stated multiple times they aren't planning on implementing day/night cycle in the game. I do hope that we can get them to reconsider. I mean, very old games, archaic by today's standards had day/night cycles, hell, even some semblance of a weather (both BGs, both Icewinddales, both NWNs and the list goes on). It can't be that hard to change some visuals, add a clock and make some racial skills activate on night time. Mind you, I know nothing about game development, so I could be entirely wrong about the 'hard' part.
Posted By: Tuv Re: The issue of the eternal day - 29/10/20 09:33 PM
There already seems to be a main light source that moves, it happens when loading in and looks like fast forwarding a couple hours. Not sure what this is about.

Not having a day/night cycle is such a pity, the gameplay of nightly raids alone or seeing the landscape at night. Some locations like the goblin camp would look even more stunning if they held their celebrations at night.
Astarion could get a slight boost at night etc etc

Dragon Age had frozen in time maps and it was incredibly strange to return to such stagnating maps.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: The issue of the eternal day - 29/10/20 09:54 PM
I want night time simply for the atmosphere. The difference it makes in bringing the world alive is MASSIVE.

The eternal day is really weird. You can't wait for night time to go steal something but have to do the sneaking in broad daylight.

Areas turning more dangerous during the night makes the world feel dangerous and everything more like an adventure.

Going to meet some shady characters at night is completely different to meeting shady characters during the day.

Sunset and sunrise is a thing.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: The issue of the eternal day - 29/10/20 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by Tuv
Dragon Age had frozen in time maps and it was incredibly strange to return to such stagnating maps.


DA2 kiiinda had day'night cycle... but it was quite... inorganic? Still, it let you visit some locations at night and see the difference.

It's so sad Larian are opposed to dynamic world, it seems to go against some of their design goals for BG3 and it's just lots of wasted potential on so many aspects of the game... Visuals, atmosphere, immersion, mechanics, creative problem solving, world reactivity...
Posted By: Zarna Re: The issue of the eternal day - 29/10/20 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester

DA2 kiiinda had day'night cycle... but it was quite... inorganic? Still, it let you visit some locations at night and see the difference.


The more I play, the more I find myself missing nighttime. I would rather see this system than the always daytime we have currently. Of course a proper day/night cycle would be even better.
Posted By: Tuv Re: The issue of the eternal day - 29/10/20 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Tuv
Dragon Age had frozen in time maps and it was incredibly strange to return to such stagnating maps.


DA2 kiiinda had day'night cycle... but it was quite... inorganic? Still, it let you visit some locations at night and see the difference.

It's so sad Larian are opposed to dynamic world, it seems to go against some of their design goals for BG3 and it's just lots of wasted potential on so many aspects of the game... Visuals, atmosphere, immersion, mechanics, creative problem solving, world reactivity...


Yeah...I skipped the second one
I was thinking about the 3rd Dragon Age and being welcomed by the same god-rays every time etc

I really wish Larian the best so they can grow with this project, it's a good opportunity to add even more depth to the freedom we already have in the game.
And Larian likes fire, fire looks great at night.
Posted By: Wormerine Re: The issue of the eternal day - 29/10/20 11:13 PM
Per-rest abilities and resting has been an issue of every cRPG adaptation I have seen. Not sure, what cosmetic day&night cycle is supposed to do to address this issue. Universal camp is a strange concept, indeed.

From existing titles Pillars of Eternity had my favourite solution - carrying capacity of two camping supplies. While it didn’t prohibit players from spamming rest if they were willing to track back to town to buy more, it did allow for devs to pace how much intended rest there is per dungeon.

I would be curious to see per-rest system applied in a structure designed around that idea - perhaps like something similar to Dark Souls bonfires - resting in specific places only, and not being able to take one fight at a time. That would restfully in a very different game though.
Posted By: DasFlume Re: The issue of the eternal day - 29/10/20 11:32 PM
The lack of any real time pressure currently is what gets me most. Once I realised resting had no impact on the progress of the groups' ceramorphosis or the Druids' eternal chanting, the story lost all sense of urgency and a lot of its credibility. I can only imagine this is done purposefully for data gathering reasons. What I am hoping is that these quests with implied time pressures actually make themselves felt so that taking a long rest is a much more meaningful choice. To really make this work, the short rest system needs to be expanded. More short rests per long rest, the inclusion of hit dice and the removal of health gain from food items, allowing group interactions and story beats that currently only take place for long rests to happen during short rests where appropriate.
It's about managing resources to allow you to reach your desired outcome. Right now you have nothing to manage, nothing to loose from having a good sleep, fighting some spiders for 20 minutes then popping back off to bed.
Posted By: Changeling4 Re: The issue of the eternal day - 29/10/20 11:53 PM
Yep, the lack of a day/night cycle is such a huge missed opportunity.

As others have said, day/night has such an understated impact on immersion, and the mechanics of light in D&D mean that night time actually has some really interesting gameplay implications.

A day/night cycle and an Elderscrolls-esque "wait" feature could make for such engaging decision-making with regards to sneaking and darkvision. It could also be tied to the short rest mechanic, which currently feels completely immersion breaking (I hated the bed-roll in DOS2).

Day/night as a component for limiting long rests feels both realistic and in-keeping with 5e rules (and frankly the rest system is probably my biggest concern with regards to gameplay in BG3 at the moment).
Posted By: Lumign Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 12:11 AM
Originally Posted by DasFlume
The lack of any real time pressure currently is what gets me most. Once I realised resting had no impact on the progress of the groups' ceramorphosis or the Druids' eternal chanting, the story lost all sense of urgency and a lot of its credibility. I can only imagine this is done purposefully for data gathering reasons. What I am hoping is that these quests with implied time pressures actually make themselves felt so that taking a long rest is a much more meaningful choice. To really make this work, the short rest system needs to be expanded. More short rests per long rest, the inclusion of hit dice and the removal of health gain from food items, allowing group interactions and story beats that currently only take place for long rests to happen during short rests where appropriate.
It's about managing resources to allow you to reach your desired outcome. Right now you have nothing to manage, nothing to loose from having a good sleep, fighting some spiders for 20 minutes then popping back off to bed.


No. Time limit is a very bad idea. I was never fan of it. If necessary only in the hardest difficulty setting.

It's a game, I don't want to be stressed by deadlines.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 12:17 AM
Originally Posted by Tuv
Yeah...I skipped the second one


As a side note, I'd recommend at least giving DA2 a shot. YMMV, but I was pleasantly surprised with 2 (it DOES have a lot of problems... but overall is a decent game) and very disappointed with Inquisition.

Originally Posted by Tuv
And Larian likes fire, fire looks great at night.


Ahaha, now I imagine guys at Larian suddenly reconsider upon seeing this.
Posted By: Zellin Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 12:21 AM
Originally Posted by Lumign
Originally Posted by DasFlume
The lack of any real time pressure currently is what gets me most. Once I realised resting had no impact on the progress of the groups' ceramorphosis or the Druids' eternal chanting, the story lost all sense of urgency and a lot of its credibility. I can only imagine this is done purposefully for data gathering reasons. What I am hoping is that these quests with implied time pressures actually make themselves felt so that taking a long rest is a much more meaningful choice. To really make this work, the short rest system needs to be expanded. More short rests per long rest, the inclusion of hit dice and the removal of health gain from food items, allowing group interactions and story beats that currently only take place for long rests to happen during short rests where appropriate.
It's about managing resources to allow you to reach your desired outcome. Right now you have nothing to manage, nothing to loose from having a good sleep, fighting some spiders for 20 minutes then popping back off to bed.


No. Time limit is a very bad idea. I was never fan of it. If necessary only in the hardest difficulty setting.

It's a game, I don't want to be stressed by deadlines.


So far Larian was using somewhat different system for creating urgency. Instead of counting time, they were counting completed quests. So you would need to prioritize quests over each other, not do them in a given time span. And I hope they will adopt it for day/night cycle as well.
Posted By: Telephasic Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 12:31 AM
To be honest, I'd rather have no day/night cycle than the ridiculous accelerated one that many games have.

I've never understood why - provided the game is played at a realistic pace - there's ever any reason to have the day be shorter than approximately 12 real in-game hours. Which means that - since most people don't spent 12 RL hours on a single map - hat you shouldn't realistically see a change in time from day to night if you begin adventuring at dawn.

Now, of course, you can rest whenever, and if you had a game with overland travel (which I would prefer to the giant map) you could arrive at the map at any particular time. But given the constraints the game has - that you go to bed in the evening, and you begin adventuring at dawn - it makes a certain kind of sense you never see the sun go down.
Posted By: MarcHicks Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 02:10 AM
Originally Posted by Corren
D&D is balanced largely around the question of resource management, namely day&night cycle.

When playing, this is handled by the DM along with the players through narration. But in a game like BG3, it becomes a little more difficult.

One issue I encountered while playing was the ever present feeling of cheating the game anytime I pressed the "rest" button. Because yes, resting in D&D is ALSO a resource to be managed.

And so, since I can rest anytime I want, reset my spells after every fight, engage every ambush with full hp with no cost whatsoever and succeed this way much more often... Well I feel like I deserve none of these successes.
"Well, then, just rest less often, you absolute inane QQ machine", you'll tell me (in more gentle words I hope). Your advice would be sane. But what do I gain by not resting? And what interval is the right one? Who decides? I have no DM to turn to, and the game gives me no obligation, no limitation, nothing to aim for. I just limped away from a fight against a horde of goblins, closed the makeshift door behind me and blew off the torches best I could. Now, surely, the goblins are looking inside every room to find me. But the magic button teleports me in a magical forest, where my magic campsite awaits, with weirdly uncomfortable-looking sleeping bags.
Right now, the campsite feels like it's nothing short of a level 6 "Druid Grove" spell or a level 7 "Mordenkainen Magnificent Mansion" spell. Only it's FAR better, as it's completely free and doesn't require casting time or anything.

Anyway, I'm belaboring the point. Bottom line is: it feels weird to not have days and nights. It causes me to second guess every single spellcast, leads me to feel like I don't deserve my successes and kinda breaks the spell&rest system a little bit. As it is, it's a poor way of managing resources.


Interesting, I had just that thought last night. I do wonder if there is a way that they can limit the number of times you can camp-per X hours-and perhaps buff short rest a bit to compensate.
Posted By: virion Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 06:26 AM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Tuv
Yeah...I skipped the second one


As a side note, I'd recommend at least giving DA2 a shot. YMMV, but I was pleasantly surprised with 2 (it DOES have a lot of problems... but overall is a decent game) and very disappointed with Inquisition.

Originally Posted by Tuv
And Larian likes fire, fire looks great at night.


Ahaha, now I imagine guys at Larian suddenly reconsider upon seeing this.


You inspired me and I decided to try to recreate the druid grove at night. Below is the result. I think it looks kinda neat despite me being straight up incompetent when it comes to photoshop.


Original screenshot:
https://i.imgur.com/R8TSS1G.jpg

At night version:
https://i.imgur.com/xbdhgnG.png
Posted By: Tuco Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 07:08 AM
I agree with the OP* 100%, but sadly this is also the single flaw of the game I have the least amount of confidence Larian will ever address, especially because they've been rather explicit from the beginning (and adamant I would say) that they consider a day/night cycle a waste of resources and something too complex to do properly.

Which is a bit embarrassing, when you realize the size and scope of this production and the fact that in most other games with a fraction of this budget it was the standard for 20 years.

It's also funny as an excuse, because frankly even "doing it half assed" would still be leagues better than not doing it at all because "too difficult".

P.S. I'll say it outright: if I were offered the option to delay the final release by six months only to include a decent day/night cycle and resting system, I'd take it without a second of hesitation.



*except for the complains against rest abuse: I simply never rest more than absolutely necessary in most of these games, it doesn't even matter if I can or not, I don't like abusing it.
Posted By: trengilly Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 07:49 AM
While I would like night cycles . . . . I only want them if they have some meaningful effect.

NPC's need to go to sleep or do other things. New monsters/wildlife need to come out and play. New quests need to become available. etc.

If all that is done then night cycles are fantastic . . . but its a lot of work and I can understand why Larian hasn't implemented it (yet) .

I would bet money its on their list of 'things we would like to do'. So hopefully it will happen.

But if they don't have the time and resources to do it right then its better they skip it. Just making the sky dark doesn't cut it.

Right now I'd just be really happy if dead bodies and blood disappeared when you do a long rest.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 08:06 AM
Originally Posted by DasFlume
The lack of any real time pressure currently is what gets me most. Once I realised resting had no impact on the progress of the groups' ceramorphosis or the Druids' eternal chanting, the story lost all sense of urgency and a lot of its credibility. I can only imagine this is done purposefully for data gathering reasons. What I am hoping is that these quests with implied time pressures actually make themselves felt so that taking a long rest is a much more meaningful choice. To really make this work, the short rest system needs to be expanded. More short rests per long rest, the inclusion of hit dice and the removal of health gain from food items, allowing group interactions and story beats that currently only take place for long rests to happen during short rests where appropriate.
It's about managing resources to allow you to reach your desired outcome. Right now you have nothing to manage, nothing to loose from having a good sleep, fighting some spiders for 20 minutes then popping back off to bed.


It's primarily a game. Time limits never work very well for games (or aren't liked).
You cannot add time limits without making the player feel punished for exploring, even aside from the fact that it will encourage players to avoid as many fights as possible, which should not be the goal.

Rest limits are also problematic as players are different, not to mention the possible team compositions.
Rest limited by objects seems not such a bad idea, but remembering how he was disliked in PoE1 I don't know if it's a good idea.
The time limit is also a tragic idea as it actively encourages the player to minimize the game.
It seems to me that the best idea would be to prevent a long rest in certain places, as it currently works in the witch's hideout, and also when there are enemies nearby.
Posted By: Tuco Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 08:20 AM
Originally Posted by trengilly
While I would like night cycles . . . . I only want them if they have some meaningful effect.

It's something I've read around a lot and I guess it's supposed to be deep and insightful, but the more I think about it, the less convincing I found it.

Because quite frankly even without ANY variation to NPC scheduling/placement it would be an added value even simply for introducing a more dynamic environment (variable lighting conditions, different monster encounters based on the time of the day, etc) and the mere notion of passing time, getting tired, needing a proper rest, etc.
What's hilarious to me is that Larian removed all these factors entirely... And now they are basically struggling to reintroduce them and give them some meaning in other forms (the fact that you can miss events if you rest at an inappropriate time to suggest we aren't frozen in time, your characters occasionally claiming to be "tired" (even if apparently unaffected by it), the convoluted instanced camping to suggest the passing of days and that a "night" exists", etc).


Quote
I would bet money its on their list of 'things we would like to do'. So hopefully it will happen.

Uh, no. Unless they'll change their mind (which is unlikely so late in production) it's literally on their list "We are not going to bother because it's a lot of work".

Originally Posted by Rhobar121

It's primarily a game. Time limits never work very well for games (or aren't liked).

Limits and rules are what define a game.
Without restrictions that define the rules, you don't have a game but a toy.

Posted By: 1varangian Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 09:10 AM
Originally Posted by Lumign
Originally Posted by DasFlume
The lack of any real time pressure currently is what gets me most. Once I realised resting had no impact on the progress of the groups' ceramorphosis or the Druids' eternal chanting, the story lost all sense of urgency and a lot of its credibility. I can only imagine this is done purposefully for data gathering reasons. What I am hoping is that these quests with implied time pressures actually make themselves felt so that taking a long rest is a much more meaningful choice. To really make this work, the short rest system needs to be expanded. More short rests per long rest, the inclusion of hit dice and the removal of health gain from food items, allowing group interactions and story beats that currently only take place for long rests to happen during short rests where appropriate.
It's about managing resources to allow you to reach your desired outcome. Right now you have nothing to manage, nothing to loose from having a good sleep, fighting some spiders for 20 minutes then popping back off to bed.


No. Time limit is a very bad idea. I was never fan of it. If necessary only in the hardest difficulty setting.

It's a game, I don't want to be stressed by deadlines.



I understand this.

But they wrote a story with urgency. You can't have both urgency and meaningless passing of endless time.

I tried to rest as little as possible because of the tadpole and the druids, and Lae'zel aggressively pointing out how resting is bad. The game repeatedly told me "bad things are happening, act fast". I was hugely let down by the fake urgency.
Posted By: Tuco Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 09:18 AM
Reasonably forgiving (and explicitly stated) time limits on some optional goals would make most games better, actually.
But it can be a hard sell because some people have something bordering a panic attack at the mere notion of facing one, it doesn't matter if it's a senseless reaction and any barely competent playthrough will have no issues.

For an example of a GOOD implementation, I loved that in Pathfinder Kingmaker you can get a HEFTY reward (the first +2 magic sword in the game) if you complete the first major goal in the game under a month.
This also encouraged the player to actually travel light and use the rest function only when necessary.

Then again Kingmaker is also an example of putting in the game HIDDEN time limits that could punish you unreasonably hard, even leading to a game over if you missed the deadline.
Which is bullshit and makes the whole thing a mixed bag.




Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 11:56 AM
Originally Posted by virion
You inspired me and I decided to try to recreate the druid grove at night. Below is the result. I think it looks kinda neat despite me being straight up incompetent when it comes to photoshop.


Original screenshot:
https://i.imgur.com/R8TSS1G.jpg

At night version:
https://i.imgur.com/xbdhgnG.png


Pretty cool! Druid grove would be so atmospheric at night.

Originally Posted by Tuco
It's also funny as an excuse, because frankly even "doing it half assed" would still be leagues better than not doing it at all because "too difficult".


I think the excuse is multiplayer and wonky time flow when some characters are in real time and some in turn-based. But imo that's a shit excuse.

Originally Posted by Tuco
P.S. I'll say it outright: if I were offered the option to delay the final release by six months only to include a decent day/night cycle and resting system, I'd take it without a second of hesitation.


Yes. 100%. It just adds so much to so many aspects of a game.



I'm strongly against time limits though. It's fine for some game types, but not something I'd enjoy in an RPG. (I guess BG1-style deadlines were fine. You knew the deadline and it was quite generous. It also didn't prevent you from exploring and taking your time outside of the specific timed quest.)
Posted By: Tuco Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
[quote=virion]
I'm strongly against time limits though. It's fine for some game types, but not something I'd enjoy in an RPG. (I guess BG1-style deadlines were fine. You knew the deadline and it was quite generous. It also didn't prevent you from exploring and taking your time outside of the specific timed quest.)

So... you are NOT against time limits, only stringent ones.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 12:18 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester

I'm strongly against time limits though. It's fine for some game types, but not something I'd enjoy in an RPG. (I guess BG1-style deadlines were fine. You knew the deadline and it was quite generous. It also didn't prevent you from exploring and taking your time outside of the specific timed quest.)

So... you are NOT against time limits, only stringent ones.


Sort of. I dislike them in general, but if they are reasonably implemented and don't turn the whole game into "can't explore in peace and must always hurry", then it's... bearable. Still, I wouldn't say they improve the game. It might be jarring if the premise suggests urgency and you can take all the time you want, but I'd say it's the lesser evil.
Posted By: Tuco Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester

Sort of. I dislike them in general, but if they are reasonably implemented and don't turn the whole game into "can't explore in peace and must always hurry", then it's... bearable. Still, I wouldn't say they improve the game. It might be jarring if the premise suggests urgency and you can take all the time you want, but I'd say it's the lesser evil.

I don't see why decently implemented time limits should "prevent exploring".
They are supped to limit how much time you have to achieve specific goals, not how much time you can spend into the game in general.
It should be even less of an issue when matching a deadline gives you an extra reward, as in the Kingmaker example I mentioned, rather than punish you.
Posted By: Azarielle Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 12:29 PM
I like the way it's done in Witcher 3 - if you arrive in a settlement at night, people will be asleep and you'll have to meditate as well, if you want to talk to the blacksmith. While that may seem inconvenient at times, it also makes the world feel so much more alive along with dynamic weather.

If you compare the worlds of DAI and Witcher 3 - which one feels more organic to you? And as we know there are some among us who would argue that Witcher is not even an RPG, I for one think it's environment is one of the best examples of how an RPG world should feel like.
Posted By: Tuco Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 12:35 PM
Originally Posted by Azarielle
I like the way it's done in Witcher 3 - if you arrive in a settlement at night, people will be asleep and you'll have to meditate as well, if you want to talk to the blacksmith. While that may seem inconvenient at times, it also makes the world feel so much more alive along with dynamic weather.

If you compare the worlds of DAI and Witcher 3 - which one feels more organic to you? And as we know there are some among us who would argue that Witcher is not even an RPG, I for one think it's environment is one of the best examples of how an RPG world should feel like.

Yeah, scheduling tied to the night/day cycle.
Ultima VII did this stuff in 1992 -and I'm not even sure it was the first- and since then it's a staple in most (good) RPGs.

But Larian people seems to be way more fond of their "frozen in time" design approach, despise the fact that a day/night cycle was already something that they promised (and then never delivered) at the time of the Original Sin 1 kickstarter.
Somehow they seem to think that the concept of passing time, having a dynamic world, etc. is not worth the work.

Which is bizarre, given how much time Swen VIncke spent in the past saying that Ultima VII was his role model of an ideal RPG and where he wanted to go given the budget.
Now they are doing an RPG with a budget that would put even some Bioware production to shame, but just removing more and more expected features as the time goes.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 12:48 PM
Originally Posted by Corren
D&D is balanced largely around the question of resource management, namely day&night cycle.

When playing, this is handled by the DM along with the players through narration. But in a game like BG3, it becomes a little more difficult.

One issue I encountered while playing was the ever present feeling of cheating the game anytime I pressed the "rest" button. Because yes, resting in D&D is ALSO a resource to be managed.

And so, since I can rest anytime I want, reset my spells after every fight, engage every ambush with full hp with no cost whatsoever and succeed this way much more often... Well I feel like I deserve none of these successes.
"Well, then, just rest less often, you absolute inane QQ machine", you'll tell me (in more gentle words I hope). Your advice would be sane. But what do I gain by not resting? And what interval is the right one? Who decides? I have no DM to turn to, and the game gives me no obligation, no limitation, nothing to aim for. I just limped away from a fight against a horde of goblins, closed the makeshift door behind me and blew off the torches best I could. Now, surely, the goblins are looking inside every room to find me. But the magic button teleports me in a magical forest, where my magic campsite awaits, with weirdly uncomfortable-looking sleeping bags.
Right now, the campsite feels like it's nothing short of a level 6 "Druid Grove" spell or a level 7 "Mordenkainen Magnificent Mansion" spell. Only it's FAR better, as it's completely free and doesn't require casting time or anything.

Anyway, I'm belaboring the point. Bottom line is: it feels weird to not have days and nights. It causes me to second guess every single spellcast, leads me to feel like I don't deserve my successes and kinda breaks the spell&rest system a little bit. As it is, it's a poor way of managing resources.

I gain the sense of knowing that I'm playing the game the way I want. I was thinking that this was going to be focused on the lack of night for actual gameplay, instead of just another "but Long Resting is bad" thread. The immediate solution to the problem is to just not do it. It's what I do, and, in fact, I was afraid to do it initially, because time bomb in my head. Even after events play out, I refrain from doing it, not because I feel like it's exploitive or anything, but simply because that's my approach to a lot of optional things, if I don't feel like it's something I have to do, I don't do it. I carry lots of food too. Do I use it in combat? Nope. But I will use it after. Why? Because I can't see stopping in the middle of a fight to "make a sandwich". It's also why I don't change armor in combat, and why I don't loot during combat.
Posted By: Arkhan Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 02:35 PM
I also dislike the way rest is implemented. And not just the timing. The camp is awful too. Where is this camp? I can teleport to it from the bottom of a dungeon, have a sleep, and then teleport right back to the same place I was standing. This really destroys the believability of the world for me. I also hate that the camp is the place I talk to my companions - why can't I talk to them on the road?

Maybe we could have restrictions on where we can rest? For example, can't rest if monsters are nearby, or if indoors, or in hostile locations (like the Goblin den). To compensate, let us have more short rests - like in the 5e rules where we get one short rest per hit dice.
Posted By: virion Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by robertthebard

I gain the sense of knowing that I'm playing the game the way I want. I was thinking that this was going to be focused on the lack of night for actual gameplay, instead of just another "but Long Resting is bad" thread. The immediate solution to the problem is to just not do it. It's what I do, and, in fact, I was afraid to do it initially, because time bomb in my head. Even after events play out, I refrain from doing it, not because I feel like it's exploitive or anything, but simply because that's my approach to a lot of optional things, if I don't feel like it's something I have to do, I don't do it. I carry lots of food too. Do I use it in combat? Nope. But I will use it after. Why? Because I can't see stopping in the middle of a fight to "make a sandwich". It's also why I don't change armor in combat, and why I don't loot during combat.



Even if your approach is the healthiest and ultimately that's what I did in my playthrough it's not an answer to everything. Long rest and day night cycle are connected.

Look at it this way:
If your spells have limited use per day, sleeping restores them and you can sleep endlessly then indeed why would you have the limited use of spells in the first place?

In PnP ( correct me if I'm wrong , i never played tabletop!) you have your GM to tell you " you woke up 1 hour ago, you used all your spells...that's your problem. You can't go to sleep again for now"). So you have all this resources management thing that come into play. You CAN'T use them all at once. That's what makes a balanced game.

In BG2 they had no idea how to balance it so they added a day night cycle and a meaningless sleep system that you could spam. They could remove the sleep system together with the spell limit per day. It served immersion and that's it. They forced the fatigue system + random encounters to make at least some kind of game mechanic around it. But effectively your mage was a spell gatling gun.

In BG3 Larian added an incentive for resting -> Talking to your team. That's why they don't have to worry about a day/night cycle also. It was the simplest and most logical solution. That's why your enemies are bullet sponges. To make sure you use those precious spells of yours and have a reason to sleep. Your characters will never feel the need to sleep, you won't get random attacks when going to sleep. Effectively they sacrificed immersion and interactions with your team outside of camp. And earned simplicity in return. They don't have to implement a day -night cycle.

Larian focuses on gameplay above all in an RPG, so that decision is not surprising.

We want a day/night cycle for immersion. But this requires a non-retarded in-game sleep system that has still to be invented for the past 20 years. If you achieve this in this thread I will send all of you a cookie. I have no fucking idea how to do it.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester

Sort of. I dislike them in general, but if they are reasonably implemented and don't turn the whole game into "can't explore in peace and must always hurry", then it's... bearable. Still, I wouldn't say they improve the game. It might be jarring if the premise suggests urgency and you can take all the time you want, but I'd say it's the lesser evil.

I don't see why decently implemented time limits should "prevent exploring".
They are supped to limit how much time you have to achieve specific goals, not how much time you can spend into the game in general.
It should be even less of an issue when matching a deadline gives you an extra reward, as in the Kingmaker example I mentioned, rather than punish you.


Hence why I said I can tolerate time limits if they're "reasonably implemented and don't turn[...]".

And that's the thing - specific goals. One mission with a reasonable time limit to have semblance of realism and nudge the player (two weeks to rescue Dynaheir). Main quest isn't really a "specific goal". Now perhaps I'm just imagining the bad way to do time limits, but if a game tells me "here, have this vast area full of quests and interesting areas to explore... btw, you have 7 days to finish Act I", that's not fun.
Posted By: Scarecrow321321 Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 06:17 PM
Humm, something seems off here:

1) larian won't implement a day/night cycle because it's too complicated,

2) people don't want to reuse game mechanics from a 20 year old game, presumably because theyre outdated (too simple?)

3) BG 1/2 implemented a day/night cycle just fine, 20 years ago

which is it ?

for me (lets be clear, my opinion), the day/night cycle titally added to immersion, and for me, imersion is king. Playing a rogue, going on nighttime heists ? Streets more dangerous at night? Certain shopkeepers and fences only popping up at night ? Bring it on,!

While we're at it, if it's really just one eternal day, presumably my party are still alive, so I'll have them back, please smile
Posted By: Nicottia Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 10:49 PM
I still stand by my opinion that day/night cycle is of paramount importance when it comes to immersion... having some dynamic weather system would be welcome as well.

Now here's a little story: on my first BG3 playthrough, I played a cleric, and I made it a point to rest only when necessary, like some of you pointed - the game is yapping about our imminent ceremorphosis, about wasting time and what not, so, including the tiefling party I rested 4 times, from the beginning aboard the nautiloid (you can't rest there obviously) up until the boat ride in the Underdark. On my 2nd playthrough, knowing that resting a lot doesn't seem to have any impact whatsoever, I rested a crapload, uncovered all these little cutscenes and dialogues with the party members I have not encountered before - because lo and behold - they are tied to long resting after certain in game events and quests completed, long resting a lot as well.

Do I need to explain any of you the ... and I hate using this word btw - the retardation of our current system? I am not asking for Fallout 1's solution either (anyone remember the 30/60 day limit to finish FO1? now that is panic attack inducing), just give us day/night cycle, tie certain events (Astarion + Lae talking about stars for example) to the night, rework the way the camp works too. Make it adjust to our environment - you wanna rest in a dungeon? Fine, change it's surroundings to that of an inside of a broken down castle or something, wanna rest in the Underdark? Fine, but make it extra dark and give us no sky. Make it so we could be ambushed while camping. The thing is - your current suggestions to disallow camp inside of dungeons and what not is not the greatest solution, since you can just port to a waypoint outside, rest and go back and backtrack, sure, it's annoying, but just as immersion breaking.

As of now, BG3 seems to take too much out of Bioware's Mass Effect and Dragon Age pages, where depending of where you were, you were stuck in time, there was no day/night cycle in all 3 MEs and DAO, DA2 had different day/night versions of the same map that you could choose yourself, and I barely remember what DAI had, my brain is repressing the memories. wink Now let's talk about other D&D titles, which BG3 is supposed to have a lot in common with. BG1/2 - day/night, ambushes while resting, rudimentary weather (those random lightning strikes were hella annoying btw). IWD 1/2 - same as BG1/2. NWN - same, NWN2 - same + Mask of the Betrayer introduced this really cool resting mechanic - with the spirit eater curse slowly eating you up from the inside, that you had to choose your rests, otherwise - if you rested to much and the spirit eater's spirit hunger reached 0 = game over baby. I am pretty sure that the Temple of Elemental Evil also had day/night cycle, Planescape Torment, on the other hand, had none. But that could've been explained by the Nameless One being in hells, passage of time being ... different there. So, unless, our little trip to Avernus in BG3, fucked the fabric of space and time entirely, then Larian has no excuse as to why we have no day/night cycle. They could even make it like it was in NWN2 (base game) cosmetic only. It obviously would be quite amazing if we got to see the townsfolk move about their lives depending on the time of day, but that I'm betting, would be too hopeful.
Posted By: Tuco Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 11:00 PM
When you think about it, it's kinda embarrassing that Larian can't do day/night cycle and has no clue of how make resting feel contextually appropriate and relevant (while also limiting it to some extent) and yet Pathfinder Kingmaker nailed every single one of these aspects (including very amusing party banters during rest/camping!) with a budget that in comparison could be described as "Pennies and crumbles".
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: The issue of the eternal day - 30/10/20 11:24 PM
Originally Posted by Nicottia
anyone remember the 30/60 day limit to finish FO1? now that is panic attack inducing


Yes, that's the reason I only have like 20 hours on Fallout... And my above comments on time limits were written with Fallout in mind. I fear MotB, it's on my list, but I don't think I'm going to like the time mechanics.

Originally Posted by Nicottia
BG3 seems to take too much out of Bioware's Mass Effect and Dragon Age pages


This is what concerns me about BG3. It seems like D:OS/DA hybrid, not even D:OS/BG hybrid.

Originally Posted by Nicottia
I barely remember what DAI had, my brain is repressing the memories


Would you happen to be another victim of DA:I disappointment? wink

Originally Posted by Nicottia
It obviously would be quite amazing if we got to see the townsfolk move about their lives depending on the time of day, but that I'm betting, would be too hopeful.


NPC schedules (basic, day/night, it's no TES with NPC taking weekly trips) would be indeed amazing. The world would feel like less of a setpiece.
Posted By: Nicottia Re: The issue of the eternal day - 31/10/20 12:05 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
When you think about it, it's kinda embarrassing that Larian can't do day/night cycle and has no clue of how make resting feel contextually appropriate and relevant (while also limiting it to some extent) and Pathfinder Kingmaker nailed every single one of these aspects (including very amusing party banters during rest/camping!) with a budget that in comparison could be described as "Pennies and crumbles".


Yes, exactly, I don't understand how Larian seems to be unable to do that, given their budget. Like how many copies of BG3 has Larian sold in a month now? I remember it was ~1milion not even a week in. Now couple of weeks further, I think they've definitely outsold DOS2, and BG3 is not even out yet.

Also, I've never played Pathfinder Kingmaker, it's been sitting on my wishlist on steam, been planning to get it one day on a sale or something, so far everyone seems to be praising that game and I have to admit, I'm hella curious myself.

Originally Posted by Uncle Lester

Yes, that's the reason I only have like 20 hours on Fallout... And my above comments on time limits were written with Fallout in mind. I fear MotB, it's on my list, but I don't think I'm going to like the time mechanics.


I will admit, I played FO1 couple of times, first time when I was like... 7yr old? I know, it's not a game for children and stuff, I'm surprised my mother even let me play it, after I questioned her about meaning of certain words I didn't understand (different words that basically meant 'prostitute', 'intercourse' etc.), any sane parent would be in panic, I remember she told me something along the lines of: 'at lest your vocabulary is expanding'. laugh

And speaking of MotB, don't be scared, if you keep the spirit eater fed (via consuming spirits, duh), nothing bad will happen, and there are plenty of spirits scattered around, what I used to do was, once I reached like 40% I ate a spirit, got 100% and then rested, which, if I remember correctly, would put you at 90 or 80%, so it's pretty easy to manage. There was only one area that I can think of that was a bit troublesome, cause there was nothing for the spirit eater to consume, but aside from that, it's very easy and manageable. Don't worry and I really recommend that game! Also, that example of game over was from resting a couple of times in a row, I was curious what was going to happen once you reach 0 and was pleasantly surprised it was indeed game over. wink


Originally Posted by Uncle Lester

This is what concerns me about BG3. It seems like D:OS/DA hybrid, not even D:OS/BG hybrid.


Exactly, which is why I wrote that long ass post of mine. wink I don't want another DOS/DA hybrid clone. Truth be told, I never finished DOS2, got to act 3, got bored (might finish it one day), cause there were too many fights and too little story (y'know, the big setpiece fights Larian does so well). And I play RPGs for the story, not for the combat, sure, fun combat is a +. but it shouldn't be all the entire game is centered around.

Originally Posted by Uncle Lester

Would you happen to be another victim of DA:I disappointment? wink


Yes, I legit could be replaying DAO forever, storywise it was THAT good, but DAI? 1 time is enough. DAI.... it plays more like an MMO than an RPG, pretty, but inconsequential. Also, I hate how they retconned the qun, qunari, elves, elven gods, humans, dwarves etc and thought nobody would notice...

Originally Posted by Uncle Lester

NPC schedules (basic, day/night, it's no TES with NPC taking weekly trips) would be indeed amazing. The world would feel like less of a setpiece.


Yes, indeed, I hate how static everything is right now. Hell, in BG1/2, depending on the time of day, certain shop keepers would turn in for the night only to reappear come dawn. Something like that would be amazing in BG3... but like I said, I might be too hopeful.

PS: I love your nickname 'Uncle Lester'. Ah, the little zombie encounter in Athkatla's graveyard. laugh
Posted By: Sharp Re: The issue of the eternal day - 31/10/20 12:08 AM
Pretty much anything that adds to the realism of the setting is going to get my agreement. A day/night cycle and weather would go a long way in this department, provided its well implemented and there are things like a penalty to vision (and movement) while moving in rain. Hopefully they consider adding these mechanics, as well as npc schedules, but I suspect its not going to happen frown
Posted By: nation Re: The issue of the eternal day - 31/10/20 12:25 AM
+1 imo a day/night cycle being added to bg3, while maybe an undertaking at this stage of ea, would only work to enhance the game (obligatory 'the originals had it')
Posted By: Tuco Re: The issue of the eternal day - 31/10/20 12:17 PM
Originally Posted by Nicottia
exactly, I don't understand how Larian seems to be unable to do that, given their budget. Like how many copies of BG3 has Larian sold in a month now? I remember it was ~1milion not even a week in. Now couple of weeks further, I think they've definitely outsold DOS2, and BG3 is not even out yet.

Also, I've never played Pathfinder Kingmaker, it's been sitting on my wishlist on steam, been planning to get it one day on a sale or something, so far everyone seems to be praising that game and I have to admit, I'm hella curious myself.

I should probably premise that it's not, by any stretch, a flawless game.
For one I always hated its cartoony, "WoW-esque" art style and it got some time to grow used to it.
Also, I admittedly tried to play and then quickly abandoned the game up to three times before finally enjoying it when the "turn-based mod" came out (which on a positive note is not required anymore, since now they integrated the turn-based battles natively as an option).
I absolutely could never enjoy playing it in RTWP, as I can hardly enjoy the current alpha of its sequel for the same reason... But that's probably a matter of personal taste.

Here's what Pathfinder does:
- First, it gives you an overall party penalty to travel speed on the world map according to what you are carrying, and that penalty is MEANINGFUL, making the "leave down trash loot and pick up only valuable things" a perfectly legitimate (and possibly even optimal) strategy.
- Second, it gives the party the option between doing a quick rest/camping of 8 hours using fairly heavy prepacked rations... OR without carrying any of those, but spending more time hunting in the area for food (this can go up to 16 or even 24 hours). When you are in dungeon, only the former is an option since your men can't hunt.
- Third. When the player is camping on the world map, it's just the click of a button and you'll see a simple UI where you decide who goes on guard, who hunts, who cooks, who scouts for enemies, etc. When doing the same in dungeon, the player is required to find a suitable open area and to have cleaned enemies in the surrounding. In both cases the party members start bantering with each other. In both cases you can be eventually ambushed by enemies.
- Fourth, to make all the previous systems "come online" together and have meaning, the game gives you occasional time limits, both with positive reinforcement (an extra reward to stay under a certain deadline) and negative ones (some quests can fail if you take too much time).

It's all brilliant, really. The downside of it is that the game mixes excellent implementations of these ideas with some utter bullshit.

For an example of the former, you have the first major goal in the game (killing/dethroning a robber baron/brigand leader in charge of the region) and you can complete the goal under a month (quite tight and it will need for you to travel light and rest as little as possible, but still manageable exploring and completing 100% of the starting region) to get an exceptional bonus reward (a superlative +2 Dueling Sword that has almost no equals at that point of the game) OR complete the same goal under three months to not face a game over (and this is a walk in the park. There is almost NO way to waste that much time unless you'll go out of your way to rest every two steps).
I loved this shit, and managing the first goal was incredibly satisfying and immersive (it was nice to feel the pressure of the clock ticking, while still having the time to appreciate everything the game offered up to that point).

As a bad example of the latter, on the other hand, later in the game you have HIDDEN doom clocks that can make the entire campaign fail if you took too much time to chase your main goal. To be fair, once you are aware of them and understand the game mechanics they are rarely particularly pressing, but still, it's VERY BAD that in some case you can't even realize they are there because the game is rather obfuscating about how pressing the urgency can actually be.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: The issue of the eternal day - 31/10/20 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by Nicottia
I will admit, I played FO1 couple of times, first time when I was like... 7yr old? I know, it's not a game for children and stuff, I'm surprised my mother even let me play it, after I questioned her about meaning of certain words I didn't understand (different words that basically meant 'prostitute', 'intercourse' etc.), any sane parent would be in panic, I remember she told me something along the lines of: 'at lest your vocabulary is expanding'.


Ahaha, mine would be like "wait a couple of years". BG was fine though, but I'm guessing that's because she didn't know any details. Played Fallout just a couple of years ago though - now those were some old, cumbersome mechanics. I was at a loss at the first rat fight, haha.

Originally Posted by Nicottia
And speaking of MotB, don't be scared, if you keep the spirit eater fed (via consuming spirits, duh), nothing bad will happen, and there are plenty of spirits scattered around, what I used to do was, once I reached like 40% I ate a spirit, got 100% and then rested, which, if I remember correctly, would put you at 90 or 80%, so it's pretty easy to manage. There was only one area that I can think of that was a bit troublesome, cause there was nothing for the spirit eater to consume, but aside from that, it's very easy and manageable. Don't worry and I really recommend that game! Also, that example of game over was from resting a couple of times in a row, I was curious what was going to happen once you reach 0 and was pleasantly surprised it was indeed game over.


Thank you, I'm a bit relieved. laugh I've heard great things about MotB otherwise, including comparisons to P:T. That's something.

Originally Posted by Nicottia
Yes, I legit could be replaying DAO forever, storywise it was THAT good, but DAI? 1 time is enough. DAI.... it plays more like an MMO than an RPG, pretty, but inconsequential. Also, I hate how they retconned the qun, qunari, elves, elven gods, humans, dwarves etc and thought nobody would notice...


Most of the things I liked in DA:I was just production values. It had good graphics (sans hair; terrible hair!), beautiful 2D artstyle, good music, nice system of colour/fabric customization... But the gameplay and story? I absolutely love RTwP, but DA:I played like a pausable action MMO. The controls made me want to smash my keyboard (and I'm very much not the rage-against-the-peripherals type of person). I didn't like the story (especially Trespasser) and the worldbuilding was wonky at best (and I care a lot about worldbuilding). Oh yeah, and random loot, a pet peeve of mine. At least this game made me respect my time more. I have about 270 hours on Skyrim (a game I consider flawed and unfocused) and I don't regret it. I have almost the same on DA:I and most of it was a complete waste. (Sorry, I'm always ready to go on a rant on DA:I. Nevermind me, carry on. :P )

Originally Posted by Nicottia
PS: I love your nickname 'Uncle Lester'. Ah, the little zombie encounter in Athkatla's graveyard.


Haha, thank you! I love this encounter. On the topic of complimenting each other's internet personas, I really like your avatar. wink
Posted By: SerraSerra Re: The issue of the eternal day - 02/11/20 10:37 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
P.S. I'll say it outright: if I were offered the option to delay the final release by six months only to include a decent day/night cycle and resting system, I'd take it without a second of hesitation.


Originally Posted by Nicottia
So, unless, our little trip to Avernus in BG3, fucked the fabric of space and time entirely, then Larian has no excuse as to why we have no day/night cycle. They could even make it like it was in NWN2 (base game) cosmetic only. It obviously would be quite amazing if we got to see the townsfolk move about their lives depending on the time of day, but that I'm betting, would be too hopeful.


+1 , Please Larian, invest some of that sweet profit made in EA to implement a Day/night system, I know you want it....
Posted By: Gathord Re: The issue of the eternal day - 02/11/20 02:52 PM
I would love to see a day-night cycle too, one of the best things about pathfinder kingmaker for me was the fact the game had even snowfall with the coming of winter. Doubt that will be something in bg3, but a day-night cycle would add quite a bit of mood to the game, I want to see Baldurs gate as a city at night! Sneaking with current mechanics could potentially be too strong at night though, I am not sure.
Posted By: Cyka Re: The issue of the eternal day - 02/11/20 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by Riandor
Could we at least get some weather?!


With how surface/environmental modifier happy Larian is with their games, it feels strange to me they never considered weather effects on the encounter at all.
Posted By: Divine Star Re: The issue of the eternal day - 03/11/20 02:15 AM
+1. I would LOVE a night/day cycle, and when companions or PC says they are tired and want to rest to first, to show SOMETHING indicating why a character would be tired. A cycle would make that understandable.
Posted By: cal1s Baldur's Gate 3 Needs Day/Night Cycle - 04/11/20 03:04 AM
Since my first playthrough of BG3 EA, I'm in the mood of playing more crpgs. Right now I am playing BG2 and Pillars of Eternity (I've also started a second BG3 playthrough, Yes I'm crazy like that lol).

I'm enjoying Pillars right now, and I have to say going in an Inn during the day to rest and going out in the rain during nightfall is just absolutely great. We definately need a day/night cycle in bg3. It adds soooo much to the overall immersion and atmosphere and makes the world so much more believable.

What do you guys think?
Posted By: Tuco Re: Baldur's Gate 3 Needs Day/Night Cycle - 04/11/20 03:19 AM
The more I'm replaying EA, the more I'm realizing that the complete lack of day/night and passing time weights like a massive boulder on the believability of the setting, making it feel artificial.

Too bad the studio has already said in no dubious terms that it's not going to happen since they consider it "too much work for too little benefit to do properly".

Well, I'd be fine even without a "proper" version of it and just a mediocre implementation, because that can't be worse than having a "cardboard scenery" world frozen in a single moment in time.
They could look at Pathfinder Kingmaker as an example of game that did day/night and camping mechanics more than effectively enough using a mere fraction of the budget Larian can boast on this production.

Already said it in another thread, I'll say it again: it's not up to me to decide, but if I was offered the choice between going without a day/night cycle and getting it but delaying the final release six additional months, I'd take the latter without a second of hesitation.

Posted By: cal1s Re: Baldur's Gate 3 Needs Day/Night Cycle - 04/11/20 03:23 AM
They could start an additional Kickstarter only to fund the development of day/night cycle and I'm sure they'd easily get another 1-2 million for it, if not more. I'm sure I'd pay for it tbh.
Larian has a major problem creating immersion.

D/N is so essential and would improve the game even if it was binary (for example you could just choose to go end the day at the camp and explore during the night, so you have control of the plot).

I doubt CDPR would overlook something like this.
Posted By: Argyle Re: Baldur's Gate 3 Needs Day/Night Cycle - 04/11/20 03:34 AM
Neverwinter Nights II had awesome night scenes. I still remember walking up the winding trail to the Highcliff ruins, and I could see the moon rising behind the distant mountains and reflecting off the water below. Ahhh, such sweet stars in a magical land.

In BG I, I had to meet Narlen Darkwalk at night in order pull off the next caper. How is BG III gonna bring back Narlen if there is no night?? Maybe Larian can't make the day/night cycle run continuously on all maps, but perhaps it could be worked into certain special areas where it is a part of the story.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Baldur's Gate 3 Needs Day/Night Cycle - 04/11/20 03:37 AM
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3

D/N is so essential and would improve the game even if it was binary.

Right. That's what I meant.
They could literally do the most basic, binary system (i.e. dusk/dawn mini-video pops up, like in BG1, no dynamic light change required, a new darker/lighter version of the map is loaded, most NPC disappear/appear in their bed at night, stores are closed) and no matter how bare-boned, it would still add immensely to the believability of the game world.
Not to mention it would open a lot of opportunities for quest design, rest system, fatigue, exhaustion, etc.

It's fairly jarring that a feature that was considered basic in most CRPGs since Ultima and co. is now dismissed as "too expensive and unnecessary" in a game with an overall budget that probably dwarfs the almost totality of the classics (and several current competitors) combined.


Posted By: Xeneize Re: Baldur's Gate 3 Needs Day/Night Cycle - 04/11/20 03:46 AM
I like. Hope it is done.
Yeah, I'd much rather have a day / night cycle with normal camping or resting at inns than teleporting to a magic pocket camp.
Thats what happened to the budget <cry>.

Cinematic dialogues, CHECK
Hardocre sex scenes, CHECK
Realistic look faces, CHECK

Day/night cycles X
6 member parties X
Single character select UI X
Crazy amount of dialogue options and lore X
Tons of playable characters X
Posted By: virion Re: Baldur's Gate 3 Needs Day/Night Cycle - 04/11/20 08:38 AM
Meh, don't remember when but Sven said " we'll stop working on BG3 when we run out of money. Our Ea last usually for 1 year, not sure if it will be the case here" .
So as long as they find a reason to do it, why not do it? Only time will tell how Larian looks at our " suggestions". Fact is the main argument for Day/Night cycle for now is that it looks cool.

Well cinematic for every single dialogue has exactly the same reason to exist and it's in the game so MAYBE we can count on it ? Very curious how Larian will approach the subject in the end.
Posted By: jayn23 Re: Baldur's Gate 3 Needs Day/Night Cycle - 04/11/20 10:34 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3

D/N is so essential and would improve the game even if it was binary.

Right. That's what I meant.
They could literally do the most basic, binary system (i.e. dusk/dawn mini-video pops up, like in BG1, no dynamic light change required, a new darker/lighter version of the map is loaded, most NPC disappear/appear in their bed at night, stores are closed) and no matter how bare-boned, it would still add immensely to the believability of the game world.
Not to mention it would open a lot of opportunities for quest design, rest system, fatigue, exhaustion, etc.

It's fairly jarring that a feature that was considered basic in most CRPGs since Ultima and co. is now dismissed as "too expensive and unnecessary" in a game with an overall budget that probably dwarfs the almost totality of the classics (and several current competitors) combined.




I think Larians current way of thinking especially for BG3 is do it perfectly or dont do it at all, and doing day/night cycle perfectly includes a lot of work considering the number of NPC and Permutations they have in the game.
Maybe now with all the money from EA they will consider adding this feature.

I didnt notice if it was mentioned already but DOS had a kickstarter strech goal that said: " NPC Schedules, Day/Night Cycles and weather Systems have an impact on NPC and monsters, the weather and moons change and influence the different schools of magic" - doing all this for BG3 would take a lot of work but it would add so much to the game immersion and tactical approach to battels.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Baldur's Gate 3 Needs Day/Night Cycle - 04/11/20 01:00 PM
Originally Posted by jayn23

I think Larians current way of thinking especially for BG3 is do it perfectly or dont do it at all, and doing day/night cycle perfectly includes a lot of work considering the number of NPC and Permutations they have in the game.
Maybe now with all the money from EA they will consider adding this feature.

Yeah, I just don't think it's a particularly productive or beneficial mindset.
I mean, if you want to go out of your way to do "the best implementation to date yet", because you think you're up to the task, by all means be my guest!

But if that's not the case, arguing that "Iif it's not going to be top notch there's no reason for it to be there at all" is at very least questionable angle, given that as already argued even the most basic, "lazy" implementation of this feature would already be on itself a massive boon to make the game's world feel more alive. Even more importantly to sell the illusion that passing time is an actual thing and we aren't looking at at a diorama frozen into a single moment in time, which opens dozens of mechanical possibilities in GAMEPLAY terms, that bizarrely enough they are currently work their asses off to circumvent in far more convoluted ways (the whole current implementation of instanced camping/long rest mechanics seem to be a spectacularly clumsy attempt at that specific goal).

They could eventually argue "Well, actually our system will take less work overall".
Hum, yeah, possibly? But it will also clearly show it. It's not like they are finding an elegant solution that "will save work for a comparable result". The hit in term of immersion and believability of the game world is going to be massive, and the result if the current impressions are anything to go by will feel like a patchwork.

P.S. I was re-reading the entire thread and aside for the amount of times I repeated myself (to my defense the current thread is actually the merging of several other on the same topic) I find vaguely jarring how I basically went from an initial "Hehe, not going to happen, deal with it" to "Oh god, we need this so badly". Because, yes, it's actually a thing that weights on the game more and more as you try to stick with it.
Posted By: frequentic Re: Baldur's Gate 3 Needs Day/Night Cycle - 04/11/20 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by virion

So as long as they find a reason to do it, why not do it? Only time will tell how Larian looks at our " suggestions". Fact is the main argument for Day/Night cycle for now is that it looks cool.


I would say the main reason is immersion. They could put all the interactable characters to bed, not add any extra night events, etc. and I sitll think it would add something to the game. Night's here, we can't do anything. Time to go to camp and sleep some.

Yes, I am exaggerating a bit, but to have a sense of apssing time does plenty. Same goes for fast travel (it's already on the fast map). Change the teleporters to waysigns and notify the player that your travelling took an hour or two. It's the cheapest option and it could be doe plenty better with some effort, but I still think it would add ot the game.
Originally Posted by Darth Rauko
BG1 and 2 had a dynamic weather system with a day/night cycle that gave those games an amazing atmosphere.
Gorion is killed on a stormy night by Sarevok!
Go to the cemetery at night looking for Bodhi taking care of the vampires.






Will we have any of this in the game?








+1 :o that would be awesome!!!
Posted By: virion Re: Baldur's Gate 3 Needs Day/Night Cycle - 04/11/20 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by frequentic
Originally Posted by virion

So as long as they find a reason to do it, why not do it? Only time will tell how Larian looks at our " suggestions". Fact is the main argument for Day/Night cycle for now is that it looks cool.


I would say the main reason is immersion. They could put all the interactable characters to bed, not add any extra night events, etc. and I sitll think it would add something to the game. Night's here, we can't do anything. Time to go to camp and sleep some.

Yes, I am exaggerating a bit, but to have a sense of apssing time does plenty. Same goes for fast travel (it's already on the fast map). Change the teleporters to waysigns and notify the player that your travelling took an hour or two. It's the cheapest option and it could be doe plenty better with some effort, but I still think it would add ot the game.


The way sign thing is quite smart. Could work as a way to do things smile And yes, the graphic benefits of the night sky in bg3....oooh, that would be awesome.

Not sure how night impacts gameplay in D&D though. Apart from pure roleplay and infra-vision elf friends is there anything that changes for the way you play your character? Talking mechanics here, not roleplay wise obviously.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Baldur's Gate 3 Needs Day/Night Cycle - 04/11/20 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by virion


Not sure how night impacts gameplay in D&D though. Apart from pure roleplay and infra-vision elf friends is there anything that changes for the way you play your character? Talking mechanics here, not roleplay wise obviously.

- Some creatures (i.e. vampires, for one) would be able to be around just at night. Or just be more active/effective then.
- It would mark the passing of time, making the introduction of tiredness/exhaustion somethings that makes sense in context.
- Consequently, it would mark the necessity to rest at least every now that then.

And that's obviously without going into all the large amount of possibilities it opens in terms of scripting and quest design (which on the other hand would be something Larian would need to purposefully take advantage of) and the already mentioned benefits in terms of cosmetic value/immersion.

At night, spirits or ghosts such as Ulcaster often appear.
At night, you can meet thieves to complete missions sent by Mae'Var.
At night, it is the only time where you can meet Bodhi and when you have to be more careful of vampires.
Posted By: Vortex138 Re: Baldur's Gate 3 Needs Day/Night Cycle - 04/11/20 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
The more I'm replaying EA, the more I'm realizing that the complete lack of day/night and passing time weights like a massive boulder on the believability of the setting, making it feel artificial.

Too bad the studio has already said in no dubious terms that it's not going to happen since they consider it "too much work for too little benefit to do properly".

Well, I'd be fine even without a "proper" version of it and just a mediocre implementation, because that can't be worse than having a "cardboard scenery" world frozen in a single moment in time.
They could look at Pathfinder Kingmaker as an example of game that did day/night and camping mechanics more than effectively enough using a mere fraction of the budget Larian can boast on this production.

Already said it in another thread, I'll say it again: it's not up to me to decide, but if I was offered the choice between going without a day/night cycle and getting it but delaying the final release six additional months, I'd take the latter without a second of hesitation.



I agree with this. I don't mind waiting a bit longer for a mechanic like this to be implemented. The advantages to realism would simply add so much to the game. From sight disadvantages to the rogue's hide ability. It would just enhance the gameplay.
Posted By: cal1s Re: Baldur's Gate 3 Needs Day/Night Cycle - 04/11/20 04:15 PM
please Larian, re-think about adding day/night cycle. it is A MUST have for a proper crpg let alone Forgotten Realms game in this day and age.
It'd be really weird if this supposedly big budget game doesn't have features that lots of smaller or older games have. It doesn't even need to be a super complex lighting system with ray tracing or cool weather effects like The Witcher 3 were trees would sway in the wind from a storm, but give us *something* to make the world not feel so static. Perhaps this is something we'll see down the line.
Originally Posted by KingNothing69
It'd be really weird if this supposedly big budget game doesn't have features that lots of smaller or older games have. It doesn't even need to be a super complex lighting system with ray tracing or cool weather effects like The Witcher 3 were trees would sway in the wind from a storm, but give us *something* to make the world not feel so static. Perhaps this is something we'll see down the line.


Exactly. Solasta with 17 people was able to do it.
Posted By: jayn23 Re: Baldur's Gate 3 Needs Day/Night Cycle - 04/11/20 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Originally Posted by KingNothing69
It'd be really weird if this supposedly big budget game doesn't have features that lots of smaller or older games have. It doesn't even need to be a super complex lighting system with ray tracing or cool weather effects like The Witcher 3 were trees would sway in the wind from a storm, but give us *something* to make the world not feel so static. Perhaps this is something we'll see down the line.


Exactly. Solasta with 17 people was able to do it.


Solasta isn't a good example since its a very liner game and i dont remember the game having any special benefits during night time aside from cosmetic.
Larian could probably do it within a few weeks or less, the big extras are the scripting of 100's of NPC during nights time, than we would expect new events and quests that's why they aren't doing it in my opinion.
Originally Posted by jayn23
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Originally Posted by KingNothing69
It'd be really weird if this supposedly big budget game doesn't have features that lots of smaller or older games have. It doesn't even need to be a super complex lighting system with ray tracing or cool weather effects like The Witcher 3 were trees would sway in the wind from a storm, but give us *something* to make the world not feel so static. Perhaps this is something we'll see down the line.


Exactly. Solasta with 17 people was able to do it.


Solasta isn't a good example since its a very liner game and i dont remember the game having any special benefits during night time aside from cosmetic.
Larian could probably do it within a few weeks or less, the big extras are the scripting of 100's of NPC during nights time, than we would expect new events and quests that's why they aren't doing it in my opinion.


Still impressive, plus it even doesn't need full scripts to be nice.
Posted By: Soul-Scar Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 04/11/20 06:31 PM
How is a clock, lighting and rain "a huge workload"? If Larian said this is "out of the question" then maybe WotC shouldn't have granted a licence. Half arsed homebrew DOS like BG3 isn't something I would have paid early access for, end of story. I said if before, everytime something is changed, not implemented, homebrewed or removed because Larian can't be arsed, a game based on the D&D lore and rules becomes....well not based on D&D. I understand devs have artistic licence and require some freedoms and I don't want a 1:1 creation of the 5e rules if it doesn't work. However if you don't even bother implementing the rules to begin with how can you argue against it?

If you can make it dark inside why not outside? Implement a moving light source from above over a finite period then.... make it go away, sounds pretty easy to me. I don't even care if everyone just does what they do during the day or sleep on a roll next to their position. This isn't a small feature you can dismiss out of hand especially if it affects so much of the race lore. You will never see Drow in daylight unless dragged kicking and screaming, ever. Nor will they attack a settlement outside the dead of night. Tadpoles are becoming more McGuffin cheese story telling by the day.

Making a McGuffin the apparent cause for all the deviation from D&D is cringey af. The tadpole makes you warp to camp at night and warp back in the morning, the tadpole makes Drow and vampires daytime creatures, the tadpole makes it daytime all the time, the tadpole makes lv 1-3 goblins opaf with 20-30hp, the tadpole makes a 6 inch step a 9th level class advantage, the tadpole gives mages backstab advantages, the tadpole gives piles of specialist ammo and bombs to mundane garbage one hit mobs, the tadpole makes a DOS clone and calls it BG......so on and so forth.

I understand there is a need to please console players and speed runners. They want DOS3, pretty sure you can fudge a few numbers and add it to difficulty settings.
Posted By: Changeling4 Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 04/11/20 08:13 PM
I commented on another thread how much I would love a day/night cycle. Such a missed opportunity.

I also wondered whether an Elder Scrolls style wait system would be well suited, giving the player some control over conditions. For example, waiting to attack at night to facilitate stealth and inhibit non-dark vision races, or waiting for the mist to pass to better search an area.

This could also be tied to the rest system, which is completely flawed at the moment.

The more I think about and play this game, the more I realise how un-immersive it is in so many respects, despite having so much potential.
Posted By: kokoroutasan Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 05/11/20 01:54 AM
I've seen some games mange with a running "clock" and when you rest you choose how long you rest for, and in multi player you have to both choose the same amount of time in order to be able to accept the rest. This could also be neat, you carry around a bedroll with you, you can rest anywhere you want, (get in a short rest in a cave for example) but if you rest outside your camp you risk attack.


I think we'd be ok to not have the players in multiplayer need to choose the same amount of rest time since you can already explore relatively independently, maybe just make sure the party members that are chained to you auto unchain when you rest that way the other player can chain them if they want to wake up earlier.

Implementing a day/night cycle like this would end up affecting the long rest spams. currently the long rests do cycle a day through, so technically that could be used for quest time passage, but implementing a day/night mechanic and having the fast travel act like it did in BG1 where different travel jumps take a different amount of time, you would then have to choose "do I take 2 days worth of travel time just to go back to my main camp and lose 6 hours (4 for some) long resting then 2 more days of travel back here" or "do I take the risk of trying to short rest in this cave, maybe alternating watches but ultimately save myself a few days but I may be ambushed"


not suggesting sitting at a bedroll staring for 4 hours on watch either fyi. suggesting having an option available for "watch x hours" or "sleep x hours" and if player a choose to sleep 2 hours while player b chooses to watch 2 hours the game can roll through those two hours almost instantaneously (with background rolls of ambush chance/perception/etc....)

if player a chooses "watch 2 hours" while player b chooses "sleep 4 hours" it could skip through 2 hours worth of time then player a has 2 hours to do whatever while player b is still sleeping. which... that could get weird.... control another party member that's awake then and go do stuff???? idk actually....
Posted By: SerraSerra Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 06/11/20 12:46 PM
I would like to add that day/night is not necessarily mere aesthetics but also carries a potential solution to the many complaints about short/long rest being meaningless.
Posted By: SerraSerra Re: The issue of the eternal day - 06/11/20 12:47 PM
Hey question for the moderator(s), could this thread be merged with the other Day/night cycle thread that was recently merged ? Thanks
Posted By: Seraphael Re: The issue of the eternal day - 06/11/20 01:45 PM
+1

Rethink this Larian. Not asking for AI to begin to simulate proper 24 hour activity cycle. Just a simpler, more elegant representation of the passage of time that should improve immersion, strengthen the storyline (ticking time bombs), as well as work in conjunction with the D&D rest mechanic/balancing.
Posted By: Tuco Re: The issue of the eternal day - 06/11/20 02:11 PM
Imagine how shitty it will feel to reach Baldur's Gate, start moving across its quartiers and streets... And realize how that will also be constantly frozen in a single moment of the day: no night lights, no vampire ambushes in dark corners of the city, no shady thugs hanging out in some alley, etc.
A constant mid-day, across the entire city and its surrounding. For the entire playthrough.

What a bummer that will be.
Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: The issue of the eternal day - 06/11/20 09:00 PM
What if, as a compromise (if they really don't want to program in an actual day/night cycle which changes over time), they just had a "day mode" and a "night mode" of the city, and you can switch between them by going to an inn or something?
Posted By: RumRunner151 Re: The issue of the eternal day - 06/11/20 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Imagine how shitty it will feel to reach Baldur's Gate, start moving across its quartiers and streets... And realize how that will also be constantly frozen in a single moment of the day: no night lights, no vampire ambushes in dark corners of the city, no shady thugs hanging out in some alley, etc.
A constant mid-day, across the entire city and its surrounding. For the entire playthrough.

What a bummer that will be.


Imagine being fine with it and hoping they spend their resources elsewhere.
Posted By: Tuco Re: The issue of the eternal day - 06/11/20 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by RumRunner151

Imagine being fine with it and hoping they spend their resources elsewhere.

There are all kind of perverts around.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: The issue of the eternal day - 06/11/20 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
What if, as a compromise (if they really don't want to program in an actual day/night cycle which changes over time), they just had a "day mode" and a "night mode" of the city, and you can switch between them by going to an inn or something?


A DA2-like solution did cross my mind as I was writing my previous post here. It would be better than no night ever, of course... but not the best solution by far. I think the very basic implementation of time of day would be relatively easy to achieve and at the same time have very good pay-off in terms of enriching the game experience. Transitions could be made like in BG1/2 for extra simplicity. Or even simpler, just day/night (BG1/2 had more than two light levels.)
Posted By: ferzupo Re: The issue of the eternal day - 06/11/20 10:15 PM
That the day has come when we have to see an AAA game having no day n night cycle I would have never imagined when I first time played Zelda OoT in 1998 and was like "Wow that how it feels to have time changed in 3D games and the different elemenst/events. So immersive. I dont want to miss it ever"
22 years later I have to see that thread here ....
Posted By: IrenicusBG3 Re: The issue of the eternal day - 06/11/20 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Imagine how shitty it will feel to reach Baldur's Gate, start moving across its quartiers and streets... And realize how that will also be constantly frozen in a single moment of the day: no night lights, no vampire ambushes in dark corners of the city, no shady thugs hanging out in some alley, etc.
A constant mid-day, across the entire city and its surrounding. For the entire playthrough.

What a bummer that will be.


I imagine (seriously hope) they will at least have some scripted night missions. I personally think Goblins vs Druid battle should had been at night.


Originally Posted by ferzupo
That the day has come when we have to see an AAA game having no day n night cycle I would have never imagined when I first time played Zelda OoT in 1998 and was like "Wow that how it feels to have time changed in 3D games and the different elemenst/events. So immersive. I dont want to miss it ever"
22 years later I have to see that thread here ....


Exactly. BG3 is a regression in many, many ways unfortunately.
Posted By: Verte Re: The issue of the eternal day - 06/11/20 10:28 PM
Day/night cycle could be worth addition if there was something behind it. Like bandints and monsters appearing in some parts of the world at nights (not entirely random on the map but ambush in places where it has some tactical sense). Making day/night mechanic just for having it is a waste.
Posted By: ferzupo Re: The issue of the eternal day - 06/11/20 10:31 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Imagine how shitty it will feel to reach Baldur's Gate, start moving across its quartiers and streets... And realize how that will also be constantly frozen in a single moment of the day: no night lights, no vampire ambushes in dark corners of the city, no shady thugs hanging out in some alley, etc.
A constant mid-day, across the entire city and its surrounding. For the entire playthrough.

What a bummer that will be.

I would deduct 40 % from my review. If it were a 100 % game it would get 60% in the end if there is no day n night cycle
Posted By: ferzupo Re: The issue of the eternal day - 06/11/20 10:33 PM
Originally Posted by Verte
Day/night cycle could be worth addition if there was something behind it. Like bandints and monsters appearing in some parts of the world at nights (not entirely random on the map but ambush in places where it has some tactical sense). Making day/night mechanic just for having it is a waste.

Please play Zelda OoT (22 year old game) and you will find out what nights are for.
Posted By: Tuco Re: The issue of the eternal day - 06/11/20 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by Verte
Day/night cycle could be worth addition if there was something behind it. Like bandints and monsters appearing in some parts of the world at nights (not entirely random on the map but ambush in places where it has some tactical sense). Making day/night mechanic just for having it is a waste.
This is such a weak argument. Both because wrong in general (as already said a basic implementation would be already massively better than no implementation) and because generally short-sighted about the possibilities the feature opens.

It goes without saying that once you had a basic form of passing time-day/night cycle implemented in the game then content deliberately tailored around it would come, because you'd be giving the designers a pass to use the feature.
Conversely, to keep rejecting it because "You either DO A LOT with it or it's not worth it" acts as a complete showstopper to begin with.

It's like not putting a wardrobe in your new apartment because "You don't have that many clothes anyway" and then from that point going on you keep hanging your three pieces of clothing on a chair and every time you are offered a choice to buy some more you'll keep rejecting them because "you have no wardrobe, so there's no point".
Posted By: Verte Re: The issue of the eternal day - 06/11/20 11:24 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Verte
Day/night cycle could be worth addition if there was something behind it. Like bandints and monsters appearing in some parts of the world at nights (not entirely random on the map but ambush in places where it has some tactical sense). Making day/night mechanic just for having it is a waste.
This is such a weak argument. Both because wrong in general (as already said a basic implementation would be already massively better than no implementation) and because generally short-sighted about the possibilities the feature opens.

It goes without saying that once you had a basic form of passing time-day/night cycle implemented in the game then content deliberately tailored around it would come, because you'd be giving the designers a pass to use the feature.
Conversely, to keep rejecting it because "You either DO A LOT with it or it's not worth it" acts as a complete showstopper to begin with.

It's like not putting a wardrobe in your new apartment because "You don't have that many clothes anyway" and then from that point going on you keep hanging your three pieces of clothing on a chair and every time you are offered a choice to buy some more you'll keep rejecting them because "you have no wardrobe, so there's no point".


I'm not entirely against the feature but I have played games with the cycle where it was mostly cosmetic, like Pillars. BG3 is already massive enough that they had to trim act1 content for EA. If cycle would add something to the game beyond atmosphere of the night then I'm happy to explore possibilities.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: The issue of the eternal day - 10/11/20 04:47 AM
And they only came out at night!

hehe just wanted to add to the chorus. Of course there should be a Day/Night cycle.

Not only do I find this blasted daylight offensive to my general circadian sensibilities, but it just cuts off way too many story possibilities to set the game in a perpetual high noon scenario.

The hoops they're already jumping through so our one vampire Origin companion can go full daywalker is kinda comical. Meeting Bodhi in Shadows of Amn during the middle of the day would have been pretty lame.

Weather and the Day/Night cycle were part of the BG charm. It gave the games atmosphere.

Not that we need a full prince of persia hourglass of doom, but man, you'd think 20 years out they'd have like a lunar calendar and 5 day weather forecast by now. Instead of just you know, nixing Time all together lol
Posted By: JonasC Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 12/11/20 09:25 AM
Agree
Posted By: JonasC Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 12/11/20 09:25 AM
Agree. Make the world more alive.
Posted By: Surface R Re: Day/Night Cycle and Dynamic Weather - 12/11/20 04:47 PM
Funnilly, the weather in the first act changes when you move the camera across the river before the Blighted Village and over the river infront of temple of Selune. The skies darken, rain starts, there is even some sounds of rolling thunder. Even the clouds change and show an actual storm in the distance over the hills, all dark sky and silver small clouds infront of it. If you push the camera far enough and then turn sideways you can see the clouds changed into dark cover over the area with goblins. But if you move characters in that direction and so the camera moves with you the weather immediately returns to blasted sunlight and those clouds disappear.

That atleast shows they can and did implement different weather. Its actually in the game, only its not currently allowed to last, or show itself in full.

The Underdark does show they implemented the actual darkness in this game about coughSharcough... and i really love the fact that not having the dark sight actually makes you almost completely blind in the dark. So its not just fake dark like most games and movies use. At least in Whispering depths, the Underdark has its own glowing thingies that make it less actually pitch black dark.

So... on the ahem, bright side, these features are already in the game. Created. Implemented. Functional.

From there it isnt so impossible or somehow difficult or "against some design preference" to expand the weather and the dark to show up and cover more of maps. Especially because the good side, Selune is mistress of the stars and the moon. Cant get those while the bloody sun is blasting.

Posted By: The_BlauerDragon Re: The issue of the eternal day - 25/02/21 06:09 AM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
I'm strongly against time limits though. It's fine for some game types, but not something I'd enjoy in an RPG. (I guess BG1-style deadlines were fine. You knew the deadline and it was quite generous. It also didn't prevent you from exploring and taking your time outside of the specific timed quest.)
I am about 1/3rd of the way with you on that one. I like having a solid day/night, calendar, and weather system. I like having strong resting restrictions. I also long for the RPG that has some (if not all) storylines proceeding with me or without me. I would love it if I had to look at possible side quests and think, "Oooh, yeah... I've already done 4 side quests, I ought not to dawdle." Give the player ample time to venture down a few rabbit holes, sure... but put in a little sense of urgency and make it so that you can do a few things and some things will just have to be left for the next playthrough if you want to eventually try them all.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: The issue of the eternal day - 17/03/21 09:22 AM
Could we please have a mega thread about Day/Night cycle ?
This one could be a good beginning and I guess it could easily reach 30 pages if you merged other threads.
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