Larian Studios
Posted By: blazerules Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 10/10/20 02:25 PM
Hello! Been enjoying the game so far, did 2 full playthroughs to the end with one that basically cleared out the entirety of overworld and underdark maps.

But something has been bothering me as a blindingly obvious solution to the tadpole problem: Death.
Minor spoiler for owlbear, on the path to it you meet a dead true soul. Seconds after death the tadpole comes out and you can kill it.

This poses a question: Why can't you just have a party member die, wait a few seconds, kill the tadpole, revive?
You have the scrolls to do so. You can also revive via other means in camp via some pretty easy story progression and 200 gold.
Sure, the tadpole cant be removed via physical or magical tampering but death seems to make it pop out right away. And that makes sense, I think this is a pretty viable in universe solution to the problem.

Which makes me wonder why does the party not... try it? Just go "hey if I die in combat wait for the tadpole to pop out before you bring me back" or just actually die on purpose. Since this is a vastly preferable fate to becoming a mindflayer and the party is all too eager to get rid of it. With this fairly simple, easy and doable right now solution instead of going on a wild goose chase?

Just a bit of feedback from my end on how just... odd it is that the party doesnt even consider it with how easy it is. And observed to work by the dead true soul popping out a tadpole seconds after death. I'm only vaguely familiar with 3.5e and that scene made me realize how easy it is to solve the issue. Kinda got me going "oh hey! We found a solution to our problem!" dont think you can even handwave this away.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 10/10/20 02:37 PM
Hahaha... yea. That's the obvious "non-permanent death" issue in all fantasy settings with relative easy access to revival magic. The usual answer is: "Because fallen characters aren't truly dead" or "Death is only permanent if the soul departs to the farplane/afterlive, etc.", or something like that. This issue creeps up regularly in most fantasy games, novels and novels...
Posted By: rfuzzo Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 10/10/20 02:41 PM
ahem, no, obviously a revive scroll just is a dried and wrapped tadpole that get's magically inserted into your brain! and nothing changes...
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
"Death is only permanent if the soul departs to the farplane/afterlive, etc.",

Problem with fallen characters not truly being dead is, they are truly dead.

Like, one of your companions talks about how the Fugue Plane isn't that great after you revive him. Meaning they were, in story terms, 100% dead until you brought them back.
This also links to the revive option in camp which makes it super clear that your companions do in fact literally die in battle but can be brought back.

It is very much an issue with certain settings, but in terms of the plot for BG3 and the setting of FR its a bad fit. Since while it's expensive to be brought back from the dead its fairly doable. Alongside being, hilariously enough, the easiest solution to getting rid of the tadpole.

Bigger issue is that it doesn't seem to be accounted for at all. Might just be handwaved away with us having super special tadpoles amongst even the special tadpoles but that's... a bit much with how much convenience exists just to keep the party together.


Hope I don't come off as a bit too negative, genuinely enjoying the game and it's a blast. But I'm here after playing and enjoying the life out of DOS2. The plot hole just struck me as a bit too obvious especially with the game saying 2 different things, alongside the lore.
Posted By: Theliel Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 10/10/20 02:59 PM
Yeah, the way Raise Dead works in D&D is you literally are dead, your soul is in the afterlife, you know who is raising you and can choose to come back or not.

But...we're dealing with Revivify, which has a time limit of 1 minute and is a 3rd level spell instead of a 5th level spell with a time limit of 10 days.

The idea being that the tadpole can wait out the 'minute' or so of story time. You'd need Raise Dead and let them be proper dead for a day. Of course, Raise Dead requires an in-tact body and the worm could destroy the head as a final act of vengeance. Then you'd need Resurrection, a 7th level spell.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 10/10/20 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by blazerules
Hope I don't come off as a bit too negative, genuinely enjoying the game and it's a blast. But I'm here after playing and enjoying the life out of DOS2. The plot hole just struck me as a bit too obvious especially with the game saying 2 different things, alongside the lore.


Yea... sadly, it is very obvious that Larian doesn't have the firmest grasp of the setting, so to speak. Ah well, we'll see how the final product will turn out...
Posted By: Staden Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 10/10/20 03:04 PM
If Gale dies and you do the tasks he tells you to do, then you get a scroll of true ressurection. Which should remove the tadpole as it cleanses the body of all afflicted diseases.
Originally Posted by Theliel

But...we're dealing with Revivify, which has a time limit of 1 minute and is a 3rd level spell instead of a 5th level spell with a time limit of 10 days

What about the camp follower who can do so for a fee of 200 and revive no matter how long the companion was dead? I've no idea what spell he uses. But he seems quite powerful.

It does come off as Larian not having the best grasp of the setting yes. And Wotc not offering the best advice or looking close enough.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 10/10/20 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by blazerules
It does come off as Larian not having the best grasp of the setting yes. And Wotc not offering the best advice or looking close enough.

I don't think 2020 WotC still cares all that much, to be honest... they want to bring the IP to a new/wider audience, and they hired a popular RPG developer to do so.
One thing you're forgetting that isn't directly stated in the game yet (so its absolutely an understandable thing to miss) is that Revivify can only bring you back up to 1 minute later. By the time a party member fights he tadpoles influence enough to kill it, you're gone to the plane eternal. Now the robed dead man seems to have a more powerful spell at his disposal, so you have a point there. Also, your vamp friend can kill you at midnight while revivify can still bring you back at 6am so point made for you there too. This will be ironed out, I'm sure. The other element is that you're under some sort of divine/arcane/evil machinations that are stopping the progression of Mind Flayer-itis. Who stopped you from bonking your dome at the beginning when you fell off the ship? Why can't anyone remove it? Why does it have a protection method even a Mind Flayer doesn't understand? There's far more at play here than the other True Souls have experienced.
Only thing that contradicts the theory that you can die to remove the tadpole, despite the game clearly showing that this is the case in a scene, is that when Wyll dies he never has a tadpole leave his body.
For me he died 2/3 playthroughs at the gates of the druid grove. And both those times no tadpole no matter how long he has been dead.

No idea if its oversight, unfinished cause beta, plothole, weird tadpole stuff.

And then theres yeah if Astarion kills during feeding... why did the tadpole not leave a corpse?

Might be plot, might be not. I'm kinda iffy about if they make it a special tadpole that is special amongst special tadpoles. A bit too much special for me.
Posted By: Redwyrm Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 10/10/20 05:36 PM
Both Raise Dead and Revivify deals with existing dead body. And providing that tadpole technically is a part of your body at that point - it gets revived as well.

The only way truly get rid of tadpole is to use resurrection, true resurrection or reincarnate. (or Clone, for arcane spellscasters)

Well, or major restoration that is... obviously all those options not available for low level party.
That doesn't account for the fact that the tadpole does leave a dead body on its own free will. Which is even shown in game within a cutscene with a dead True Soul.

So would the tadpole be teleported back into the body if you revive it other methods?
Posted By: Raflamir Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 10/10/20 09:44 PM
I hope this is addressed. Maybe they could make this one guy with a tadpole escapee not a thing.
Posted By: LoneSky Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 10/10/20 09:53 PM
OP you mixing story and game mechanics. Dead is real only when the story says so, and then only the story can revive, scrolls won't. It's fine as a funny discussion, but the story decides alone what happens, how and when.
Posted By: 0Muttley0 Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 10/10/20 10:00 PM
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Demoulius Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 10/10/20 10:03 PM
I think the obvious anwser is because story reasons. Also we are thinking as gamers and not as people. Even if we we had an option to bring recently dead people back to life, I sincerely doubt that many people would be all that willing to take it. Oh hey you got a tumor in your head. Take this shotgun and blow your own brains out. We will revive you soon after and you will be FIINNNNEEEEEEE. grin

Also, 200gp for a resurrection spell is VERY cheap compared to how expensive it is in-universe. So I guess the anwser why they dident think of it is a combination of game mechanics amd story reasons.
Posted By: Raflamir Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 10/10/20 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by Demoulius
I think the obvious anwser is because story reasons. Also we are thinking as gamers and not as people. Even if we we had an option to bring recently dead people back to life, I sincerely doubt that many people would be all that willing to take it. Oh hey you got a tumor in your head. Take this shotgun and blow your own brains out. We will revive you soon after and you will be FIINNNNEEEEEEE. grin

Also, 200gp for a resurrection spell is VERY cheap compared to how expensive it is in-universe. So I guess the anwser why they dident think of it is a combination of game mechanics amd story reasons.


Lae'zel seemed perfectly okay with dying to "fix" the tadpole problem, without any promise of resurrection.


Originally Posted by LoneSky
Dead is real only when the story says so

Except the story does say so. Especially with our mage companion who ends up in the afterlife essentially.
We are dead dead until revived, the KO mechanic exists for dead but not dead yet reasons.
The resurrection via 200gp, which yeah is insanely cheap. More so since there are no copper or silver coins. Seems to be based on the fact that you are dead story wise.

Same counts for companions who aren't members of the party, like Wyll who died 2/3 playthroughs at the gate before he even joined my party. So he ceased to exist as a character right then and there.

I'm not really mixing story and mechanics up. Just a pretty logical extrapolation.

The problem with the shotgun to the brain analogy to remove cancer is that well... if you're brought back you'd still have it. While the tadpole leaves a dead body because it doesn't want to be in a corpse nor can it survive like that. Hence why it escapes even in game in a cutscene.

In universe, this is a perfectly reasonable thing to do considering you don't know when you'll end up a mindflayer. Would you really take the chance of going out on a wild goose chase that might not net you a cure when you can just... do it literally right then and there and the worst thing you get is wasted coin? Or a scroll?

It is super low risk. More so if they just ask not to be brought back to life if they fall in battle, to see if the tadpole really would leave. Which by all logic and lore it should.


Yeah, its purely a plot contrivance that this isn't a solution. But that makes me wonder if that means the plot, or such easy access to resurrection, was a good idea for the FR setting. Personally I can see why it's like this from a game mechanic but that doesn't fully excuse the plothole. Since it just seems odd setting a story in a setting but having it be rather contrived to even work. It's not a big thing, or a major thing. It's just a bad thing that is. And only exists due to ease of access to resurrection within the very start. I know it'll be rarer afterwards but even with 200gp price that's pretty cheap and easy to access. And is still a cure you can work towards by proxy of tadpoles bailing out.

Which is kinda great since this is really the only issue I have with the game. It's really good besides, with well made quests (in structure ignoring any EA issues), interesting stories, great interactions etc etc. Overall its a great experience with little to complain about. At the very least for me. I'm not huge on DnD or FR stuff. But this just stood out to me.
Maybe they can insert this idea as a joke later on.
Honestly that doesn't sound very wise. Since that'd probably annoy folk who like FR lore. Since it is a genuine solution you can pursue.
Posted By: Druid_NPC Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 10/10/20 10:50 PM
That is indeed a huge plot-hole. For 200 coins you could just revive everyone and be done with the tadpoles.
Side note, buying a +1 item (300 coin value) runs you 660 Coins. It seems insane that you can buy 3 Resurrections castings (Each with components running over 200 gold) for the cost of a simple +1 weapon.

Let's fix the problem by eliminating Resurrections entirely, that makes the most sense, and should keep all the Rule monkeys happy.
Die, tadpole comes out, stuck with a corpse.
Posted By: swampslug Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 11/10/20 12:21 AM
Killing the three leaders of the goblin tribe also causes tadpoles to spawn near the corpse that try to escape and can be killed easily.


It certainly seems like the obvious solution, although if you complete the Nettie part of the quest your companions seem rather averse to death as a cure. Maybe they don't trust you to resurrect them?

I hope that the full game explains why this is not a viable option.
It's obviously a gameplay vs fidelity decision, because if you don't have these revive scrolls you'd just wallop the reload.
Posted By: wpmaura Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 11/10/20 12:43 AM
Op is somewhat correct. Gale would be 100npercent cured with true resurrection and killing the tadpole and then casting raise dead would also do it
Posted By: hooloovoo Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 14/10/20 09:39 AM
I registered to the forum to post OP's solution smile I guess i was too slow.
One reason i think it wouldn't work is that there is a connection between the tadpoles so if one of the party member dies - on purpose or otherwise - the tadpole would know not to leave the body as it will be resurrected by the others.
But i really hope this gets addressed clearly.
Posted By: Aurgelmir Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 14/10/20 09:49 AM
The revivify scrolls "don't exist" in game.
They are something put in there for gameplay reasons. Bringing people back from the dead is generally a very costly and difficult thing to do in most Dungeons and Dragons settings.
So while from a gameplay stand point it's an "easy fix" it's not really part of the game setting.
Posted By: RKane Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 14/10/20 09:50 AM
Technically real death in these types of games happen if a soul moves on. Since these are parasites and also have souls would it not make sense they're a parasite of the soul too? Only when a soul moves on do they 'appear'. Thus a soul that remains to be revived also revives the tadpole
Posted By: 0Muttley0 Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 14/10/20 09:59 AM
The same reason the Council at Rivendell didn't just get the giant eagles to fly over Mt Doom and drop the ring in that way.
Posted By: Cmd7701 Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 08/03/21 07:33 PM
The guy who ressurects people in camp uses the 5th level spell Raise Dead..if you want to see it or have it for yourself, go to the console and add spell "Target_RaiseDead" smile

If I knew how to add an image to this post I would take a picture of my characters list of known spells lol.
Posted By: Rack Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 08/03/21 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by 0Muttley0
The same reason the Council at Rivendell didn't just get the giant eagles to fly over Mt Doom and drop the ring in that way.

Because Sauron could disrupt them with arrows and Fellbeasts causing them to drop the ring somewhere in Mordor? Or because the eagles had their own agency and wouldn't be willing to perform such a dangerous mission while Sauron lived?

I'm not sure how either of those would apply.
Originally Posted by LoneSky
OP you mixing story and game mechanics. Dead is real only when the story says so, and then only the story can revive, scrolls won't. It's fine as a funny discussion, but the story decides alone what happens, how and when.

If developers think in this way, then they could easy use some "Deus ex machina" end that is pretty annoying.

Originally Posted by Theliel
Yeah, the way Raise Dead works in D&D is you literally are dead, your soul is in the afterlife, you know who is raising you and can choose to come back or not.

But...we're dealing with Revivify, which has a time limit of 1 minute and is a 3rd level spell instead of a 5th level spell with a time limit of 10 days.

The idea being that the tadpole can wait out the 'minute' or so of story time. You'd need Raise Dead and let them be proper dead for a day. Of course, Raise Dead requires an in-tact body and the worm could destroy the head as a final act of vengeance. Then you'd need Resurrection, a 7th level spell.

Some people also say that Wish spell can be an option.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 10/03/21 12:17 PM
Simple. You can't just die and lose the tadpole because you and your parry are special. It's said multiple times. Your tadpole is different. Notice no other True Souls are running around using the same super powers, and the Absolute REALLY wants you.
Posted By: Ixal Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 10/03/21 12:37 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Simple. You can't just die and lose the tadpole because you and your parry are special. It's said multiple times. Your tadpole is different. Notice no other True Souls are running around using the same super powers, and the Absolute REALLY wants you.

And how does the Absolute prevent you from killing a companion, chop open his skull, physically removing the tadpole and then bring the body back to live?
Originally Posted by Loki the Cat
Side note, buying a +1 item (300 coin value) runs you 660 Coins. It seems insane that you can buy 3 Resurrections castings (Each with components running over 200 gold) for the cost of a simple +1 weapon.

Let's fix the problem by eliminating Resurrections entirely, that makes the most sense, and should keep all the Rule monkeys happy.
Die, tadpole comes out, stuck with a corpse.

Wish spell turn in a container, open the container and remove the tadpole.
Posted By: Frumpkis Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 10/03/21 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Simple. You can't just die and lose the tadpole because you and your parry are special. It's said multiple times. Your tadpole is different. Notice no other True Souls are running around using the same super powers, and the Absolute REALLY wants you.

I think that's the default answer, yes. Or if we really want to hand-wave it away, there's this:

The tadpoles allow party members to see through the eyes and link the minds of other party members, right? That's already established. So the tadpoles know in advance whether their host is likely to be resurrected in short order, and they hang around for it. That doesn't happen with other True Souls that don't have the same strong bond of our adventuring party, and the foreknowledge of what will happen after death of the host.

Yeah I know, that's a stretch...
They should just get rid of the Scrolls of Revivify completely instead of handing them out like candy. Characters in 5e are really hard to actually kill and I've never needed one.

And enforce that 1 minute rule to Revivify, otherwise it will be a 3rd level Raise Dead.

Plot hole solved as a side effect.

And the mysterious skeleton as a res vendor who has nothing better to do than hang out at your camp is pretty lol. Killed all intrigue about him.
Posted By: Ixal Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 10/03/21 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by Frumpkis
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Simple. You can't just die and lose the tadpole because you and your parry are special. It's said multiple times. Your tadpole is different. Notice no other True Souls are running around using the same super powers, and the Absolute REALLY wants you.

I think that's the default answer, yes. Or if we really want to hand-wave it away, there's this:

The tadpoles allow party members to see through the eyes and link the minds of other party members, right? That's already established. So the tadpoles know in advance whether their host is likely to be resurrected in short order, and they hang around for it. That doesn't happen with other True Souls that don't have the same strong bond of our adventuring party, and the foreknowledge of what will happen after death of the host.

Yeah I know, that's a stretch...
Still doesn't explain how the tadpole prevents being physically removed after death.
Raise dead can heal head wounds.
Posted By: Frumpkis Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 10/03/21 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by Ixal
[quote=FrumpkisStill doesn't explain how the tadpole prevents being physically removed after death.
Raise dead can heal head wounds.

Oh, that's easy. The tadpoles are telepathically linked among the party, and we know from that one cutscene that they can influence our actions, with that bit about trying to stop the PC from crushing the tadpole. So they just collectively prevent the party from trying to cut out the tadpole from a dead host before resurrection, using mind control.


Still pretty lame, I know, but it closes the plot hole using information already shown in the game, and it's better than "we're special."
Posted By: Wormerine Re: Obvious Tadpole solution? Why ignored? - 10/03/21 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Rack
Because Sauron could disrupt them with arrows and Fellbeasts causing them to drop the ring somewhere in Mordor? Or because the eagles had their own agency and wouldn't be willing to perform such a dangerous mission while Sauron lived?

I'm not sure how either of those would apply.
If I remember well, enlisting eagles' help is actually discussed in books during the Council of Elrond. It's been years now and can't remember exact reasons.

Still, with resurection scrolls, a better example would be our heroes riding eagles all the time, and then thinking how they will cross the river, while the eagle is chilling beside them. Still, BG3 has so many contrivances, that that plothole didn't stand out to me.
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