Larian Studios
Posted By: Firesong Please have more faith in video game rules - 10/10/20 10:50 PM
Video games work differently than table top games, mechanics, semantics and ideas from tabletop games make no sense here.

While it's nice to enjoy the lore of D&D, having to basically hack the system (save scumming) to do what EVERY computer role game player wants to do, namely to shape your own path, isn't good game design.

So lets get back to the virtues of what made D:OS 2 such an extraordinary game, take the assets and the (I think, can't tell too much, because the constant dice rolls are throwing me out of the track all the time) story and have a good time.

I'd love to spend another 1200+ hours on a Larian game. But on the game, not on the "reloading savegame" screen, because of some stupid dice roll.
The fact of the matter is that while there are many things that don't work in the tabletop and need changing- like the ranger's class features- plenty work fine or at the very least aren't immediately apparent as being problematic in a game. We have sweeping changes for no reason, like why are spears and quarterstaves no longer versatile? No one thought these weapons were OP in the tabletop and did too much damage, yet they were changed for the game and we don't know why.

Effectively, we know the tabletop is mostly balanced. If the game started from the rules of the tabletop and then tweaked from there based on player feedback I think plenty of us would be fine with that. Instead, we have a mishmash of changes and bugs that mean we have a harder time fine tuning the balance.
That may very well be, I just want a great Larian RPG game. I couldn't care less about D&D.
What exactly is your suggestion here? No dice rolls? How would you then suggest incorporating proficiencies and bonuses?

If you are save scumming to undo a missed attack or failed dialog option I think you might be missing the point.
Posted By: Orbax Re: Please have more faith in video game rules - 10/10/20 10:58 PM
Yeah, but if I did that how would I complain all day and not make any realistic suggestions?
Originally Posted by Firesong
Video games work differently than table top games



Literally everyone here understands that, and most of us have played good DnD adaptations before that took great liberties with the rules to make a better game.

This game doesn't do that. Surface spam worked in DIVOS 1 & 2 because the games were designed around it, but is just an imbalancing gimmick when overlaid onto DnD 5e. Skill checks are not well implemented. Puzzles aren't open-ended because they're all solved the same way. Why bother putting DnD trappings on the game if you don't care about presenting something in the spirit of DnD? Just go all-out on using a different system and don't use the horrible hybrid system we're seeing here.
Originally Posted by Firesong
That may very well be, I just want a great Larian RPG game. I couldn't care less about D&D.

kind of sounds like it's not a game aimed at you then?

it's the follow on to a series of D&D CRPGs. It's set in a D&D setting, and kinda has to use the D&D rules because of it (I really don't believe they could throw away the D&D rules and still make BG), I also think if they did away with D&D rules, they'd lose more players than they'd gain here. Most people that liked D:OS are likely to at least give BG3 a go, many of thsoe are likely to like it anyway. People that loved BG are likely to give it a go, and again many people will like it, people that are looking for a good D&D game? unlikely to play it without it being said good D&D game.

Originally Posted by PumatsHole
What exactly is your suggestion here? No dice rolls? How would you then suggest incorporating proficiencies and bonuses?

If you are save scumming to undo a missed attack or failed dialog option I think you might be missing the point.


I'm save scumming because, for example,
I would never play a character that would let a child die.


This is not about fights. A fight is a player skill test, this also includes fight preparation and strategy and, for Larian games, also finding clever ways to "cheese" a fight, which was a super fun aspect of D:OS2 (I made a sport out of it on my last playthrough - to cheese as many of the fights as possible). A dice roll is pure nonsense and does neither test my skill as a player nor increase the number of options I have. It just acts as an arbitrary limitation on my gameplay.

How I would include proficiencies and bonuses?

Skill checks. Like in a fight. A hard fight may be terribly hard with that sword from 3 levels ago (D:OS2 methodology, lol), but doable with extreme player skill.

Likewise for conversations. Add a puzzle if you need to, but this whole "lets roll a dice if my character is able to say 'hi'" is pointless.

If it contributes, it contributes, if it doesn't, it doesn't.
Posted By: Orbax Re: Please have more faith in video game rules - 10/10/20 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by Deemer
Originally Posted by Firesong
Video games work differently than table top games


Surface spam is a stupid gimmick.


...have you ever played DOS2? This is non-existent comparatively. Also, as a DM, a lot of players crave using surfaces and grease fires and all sorts of stuff. I think its a good way to introduce spell combos in a way you just never get to in TT because the rules dont allow for it. If you look realistically at most fights its Swing/miss/stay, shoot/hit 4/move 5 feet, swing/miss/stay, enemy swing/half damage on barb/stay, enemy multi/miss/hit/stay, sacred flame/miss/stay move 10 feet

Its fun in the meta of resources and your journey and seeing new creatures and new terrains. But translating the level of simplicity and almost 0 synergy players have with one another other than guiding bolt, its probably beneficial to bring environment more into play in a way that is hard for DMs to build or manage on a battle map - especially given how much time we have to actually make all the terrain and come up with random encounter maps and all that stuff. It explores some concepts a bit more, and game companies have been doing grease fires forever even though no edition I know of has grease as flammable. If it was DOS2 Id nope out of this, but I dont feel its unwieldy or unmanageable yet.

my 2c of course smile
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Deemer
Originally Posted by Firesong
Video games work differently than table top games


Surface spam is a stupid gimmick.


...have you ever played DOS2? This is non-existent comparatively. Also, as a DM, a lot of players crave using surfaces and grease fires and all sorts of stuff. I think its a good way to introduce spell combos in a way you just never get to in TT because the rules dont allow for it. If you look realistically at most fights its Swing/miss/stay, shoot/hit 4/move 5 feet, swing/miss/stay, enemy swing/half damage on barb/stay, enemy multi/miss/hit/stay, sacred flame/miss/stay move 10 feet

Its fun in the meta of resources and your journey and seeing new creatures and new terrains. But translating the level of simplicity and almost 0 synergy players have with one another other than guiding bolt, its probably beneficial to bring environment more into play in a way that is hard for DMs to build or manage on a battle map - especially given how much time we have to actually make all the terrain and come up with random encounter maps and all that stuff. It explores some concepts a bit more, and game companies have been doing grease fires forever even though no edition I know of has grease as flammable. If it was DOS2 Id nope out of this, but I dont feel its unwieldy or unmanageable yet.

my 2c of course smile


I have played DOS2. And surfaces have come up extensively in every single combat encounter and dungeon I've been in while playing BG3. Every spell makes a surface and every battlefield is littered with surfaces and surface-making objects. Sure, it's less than DOS2 but that game usually ended combat with literally every inch of the screen covered in necrofire, and comparatively less than that is still a hell of a lot.

Also I'm so sorry if your TT experience has been fighting in a white room. Encounters should have fun setpieces and narrative and interesting things to do besides exclusively autoattacking. 'Chuck a surface in there!' is not it, though, and that's BG3's approach to everything.
Game rules are game rules. Sometimes they are not compatible, despite the appreciated effort (and it IS appreciated)

Larian doesn't need to rewrite a system that already works and that they're trying to adapt. Full stop.
Originally Posted by Typhron
Game rules are game rules. Sometimes they are not compatible, despite the appreciated effort (and it IS appreciated)

Larian doesn't need to rewrite a system that already works and that they're trying to adapt. Full stop.


Honestly if they bulldozed 5e and replaced it with something that wasn't an imbalanced mess I wouldn't be complaining.

Fallout 3 completely overhauled the series, and besides the weak story it was great. Total War: Warhammer plays absolutely nothing like the tabletop strategy game but is still awesome for what it is.

What we got with BG3 is a half-assed hybrid that captures the worst of both worlds rather than the best. That's what needs addressed.
I think they should have an option for percentages checks for non D&D players
Honestly if you savescum every conversation and 'bad' consequence you are really missing out. Im like that in some games, or if I feel the game cheated me in some major way OR if a bug causes something that wouldnt happen without the bug. But if those scenarios dont apply I dont. And it makes for a much more interesting story and game.

Bad things happen sometimes. Even if your character dident intend to hurt someone, they might. Sometimes shit happens and how your character handles that makes for much better RP then one where you just savescum every unfortunate event away.
I agree that some things do not translate well to videogames. This isn't sitting at a table with friends where silly rules are there to gameify roleplay. There isn't a creative DM to tell you how things went down. There's just AI.
One thing that I think does work very well, in this game, is living with a bad conversation role. I don't feel locked out of something, I have a new thing to play with.
I really enjoy the dice rolls. It makes the game feel like you're playing a virtual version of D&D.
Originally Posted by Deemer
Originally Posted by Typhron
Game rules are game rules. Sometimes they are not compatible, despite the appreciated effort (and it IS appreciated)

Larian doesn't need to rewrite a system that already works and that they're trying to adapt. Full stop.


Honestly if they bulldozed 5e and replaced it with something that wasn't an imbalanced mess I wouldn't be complaining.

Fallout 3 completely overhauled the series, and besides the weak story it was great. Total War: Warhammer plays absolutely nothing like the tabletop strategy game but is still awesome for what it is.

What we got with BG3 is a half-assed hybrid that captures the worst of both worlds rather than the best. That's what needs addressed.


Well there's your issue.

You're complaining about nothing. This is not helpful feedback in the slightest.
Posted By: Orbax Re: Please have more faith in video game rules - 10/10/20 11:48 PM
Originally Posted by Deemer
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Deemer
Originally Posted by Firesong
Video games work differently than table top games


Surface spam is a stupid gimmick.


...have you ever played DOS2? This is non-existent comparatively. Also, as a DM, a lot of players crave using surfaces and grease fires and all sorts of stuff. I think its a good way to introduce spell combos in a way you just never get to in TT because the rules dont allow for it. If you look realistically at most fights its Swing/miss/stay, shoot/hit 4/move 5 feet, swing/miss/stay, enemy swing/half damage on barb/stay, enemy multi/miss/hit/stay, sacred flame/miss/stay move 10 feet

Its fun in the meta of resources and your journey and seeing new creatures and new terrains. But translating the level of simplicity and almost 0 synergy players have with one another other than guiding bolt, its probably beneficial to bring environment more into play in a way that is hard for DMs to build or manage on a battle map - especially given how much time we have to actually make all the terrain and come up with random encounter maps and all that stuff. It explores some concepts a bit more, and game companies have been doing grease fires forever even though no edition I know of has grease as flammable. If it was DOS2 Id nope out of this, but I dont feel its unwieldy or unmanageable yet.

my 2c of course smile


Also I'm so sorry if your TT experience has been fighting in a white room. Encounters should have fun setpieces and narrative and interesting things to do besides exclusively autoattacking. 'Chuck a surface in there!' is not it, though, and that's BG3's approach to everything.


Well, I am a DM of 15 campaigns and run 3 a week for dozens of players, and no they aren't played in a white room - or if they are people seem to enjoy the white room. The point I was making was if you did a print out of actions taken per turn by the players and creatures its fairly straight line activity. Being at the table, with people, in the context of the game adds excitement beyond what is really happening. If you added what this game is doing to your standard D&D encounters, it would be crazy and it goes the other direction too; if you played out a standard D&D encounter that was recreated in a game platform it just isn't terribly exciting. People reference BG1/2 and things like that and I have noticed they reference things that were not in those editions of D&D.The game makers changed stuff and brought it into the game. They were not true to D&D.

Dialing in the amount used and the interactions and making a value statement as to whether you want the players skills and abilities to be much more prominent than environmental damage - I think thats a good argument. People want to be the heroes; if half the people die 2 turns later because they were trapped in fire from a burning goblin wine barrel they accidentally ignited then you dont feel like YOU killed them. So, I think they can try to find another way to make a group feel like they are the masters of the arena instead of 50/50ing with it for victory. The concept of spell + spell + environment synergy is fun, so how do you do it in a way where it feels a bit more under control and focused?
Originally Posted by Firesong
That may very well be, I just want a great Larian RPG game. I couldn't care less about D&D.


I'm gonna be real. This is a D&D game. If you don't want to play a game based on D&D mechanics, don't play a D&D game.
Quote
While it's nice to enjoy the lore of D&D, having to basically hack the system (save scumming) to do what EVERY computer role game player wants to do, namely to shape your own path, isn't good game design.

good CRPG gives you a chance to failures so your path is also shaped by them, not by your successes only. Like real lives
Part of the fun, in my opinion, of D&D is taking what the dice throw at you. To be certain of the outcome of every single click takes part of the enjoyment out of it (not to mention all mechanics around checks and proficiencies). Maybe someone will create a mod that eliminates the need for dice rolls on conversations, but I certainly won't be using it.

Just my two cents.
Originally Posted by Synaryn
Originally Posted by Firesong
That may very well be, I just want a great Larian RPG game. I couldn't care less about D&D.

Originally Posted by Firesong
So lets get back to the virtues of what made D:OS 2 such an extraordinary game.


I'm gonna be real. This is a D&D game. If you don't want to play a game based on D&D mechanics, don't play a D&D game.


Exactly. This is not a divinity game. Was never meant to be. It's Baldur's Gate 3, a D&D franchise. Just because it's Larian studios doesn't mean that all their games has to be like earlier productions. Look at Bioware, they have several IP's that are vastly different but are very much liked anyway. Same goes for Blizzard. And Bethesda etc.

If you want a new Divinity Game from Larian Studio you simply have to wait until they announce that project.

We D&D fans didn't necessarily disliked the Divinity series, hey I enjoyed DOS2 very much, but what we want now is a different game
For the OP: You do know Baulder's Gate is a DnD game, right? So it has that framework to abide as much by as possible. The heart of DnD contains RNG, Choice, and Consequence. If you don't want those core tenants, then BG3 won't be enjoyable for ya. Wait for a mod.
The entire concept of this game is that they got the licensing rights to make a D&D 5E game. They made a video all about meeting with the company to make this agreement.
The fans want a 5E RPG.
This game is literally made with dice rolls in mind, and not succeeding all of them in skill checks. They've designed it so that no skill check failirue will be *needed* to enjoy the game. Sometimes failing a roll in the end gives a better result. Larian has been clear that they don't want dice rolls to feel like you must succeed, and encourages the players to just go with the flow and see what happens even if you fail. I have done that, and it is a much more nejoyablle experience tbh. You can always replay the game another time and hope for different results and get a whole different experience.
Dice rolls is just an easy and convenient way of drawing random numbers. Nearly everygame has random numbers in their mecanics.

But visual dice rolls like we see everytime on dialogs is something I don't like. It's an unnessacary UI intrusion according to me because I'm not interrested in tabletop simulator mecanics.
Sorry, I disagree. I am very excited that an excellent studio like Larian has taken the challenge to create a D&D ruleset game. Part of that challenge is creating a setting and story that can branch and seem "alive" based on your chance interations with the world. I love the thought that you can roleplay and you may get a different outcome everytime you do a playthrough.
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