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Posted By: pgmoro Rogue needs several fixes! - 12/10/20 02:47 AM
Currently there are several weird things going in with rogues:

1- The sneak attack: shouldnt be an action, but a toggle, so it can also work from offhand attacks.

2- Senak attack + other damage sources: damage sources like the +1d8 from shortsword of First blood aren't being properly added to de damage roll.

3- Too many offhand attacks: It should be only followed by the main hand attack, not something you can do every time a bonus action is available, probabbly by adding a toggle as well.

4- Offhand attack dex bonus: the offhand attack shouldnt be getting the bonus from dex (or str depending on which is higher) to damage.

I don't know if those were done on porpouse mostly or are bugs, but are definitly unbalanced, as a lvl 3 rogue with thief subclass can attack as many times as a 2 handed lvl 5 fighter, while adding it's ability modifier bonus to all attacks, and being able to move between attacks at will, which completly unbalanced the class imo, and most importantly, undermines it's main feature, the sneak attack, as you can only go for it once, if you miss only next turn, so your most reliable damage becomes crazy offhand span instead of the core class feature.
Posted By: ultraulf Re: Rogue needs several fixes! - 12/10/20 03:27 AM
The offhand should be getting dex modifier to attack roll though, shouldn't it? It currently does not.

If you remove the ability mod for dmg on offhand but add the ability mod to attack, then a level 11 thief would do the same damage as a level 11 fighter with a 2hander. Not counting any other damage altering feats between 4-11 for either class other than sneak attack for the thief and extra attacks for the fighter.

That sounds fair doesn't it? Should a fighter do more damage than a rogue?
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Rogue needs several fixes! - 12/10/20 04:37 AM
Rogue is also missing:

  • Proficiency in Thieves Tools (and Trap Disarm Kits, which are an entirely separate thing now, for some reason)
  • Expertise - See this thread for other complaints about the Rogue

They also suck for exploring.

Originally Posted by Stabbey
I tried to take my Rogue exploring to look for treasure. Alas, he could not make the jump, lacking the +3 modifier in Athletics which you get from SIXTEEN STRENGTH, because he is a ROGUE, not a fighter. His +5 to Acrobatics will let him do backflips*, but not to actually jump anywhere of significance. My Cleric, in her heavy armor, had to do all the exploring, becuase nothing says "I can jump really far" than wearing a set of plate mail.

* He also can't do backfips.

I just checked, and giving a Rogue proficiency in Athletics does not do ANYTHING to increase maximum Jump distance. Only raw STR does. So, Rogues now require at least 14 in DEX (attacking), CON (for the extra survival a d8 Hit die melee attacking character needs), STR if you want them to be able to jump and explore anywhere, and INT if you want to make them an Arcane Trickster.

That's called Multiple Ability Dependency, and it is a BAD thing to have in 5e, which is a little ironic because normally Rogues are supposed to be relatively simple to build.

Typically, at the tabletop, if a Rogue player wants to jump around, the DM doesn't say "No, you're not wearing enough heavy armor to do that", they try and accommodate them within reason. There isn't a DM here, and that makes things a little rougher.

Not to mention, what happens when people can dice-roll for their attributes and someone takes a 3 in STR as a tradeoff for high scores somewhere else? You can barely make that mandatory jump in the tutorial as it is with 8 STR.
Posted By: pgmoro Re: Rogue needs several fixes! - 12/10/20 11:45 AM
You are right, it is getting the modifier to damage but not to attack roll, overlooked it.

I think that fighter should do more damage in a fight without advantage, but thief should have an edge while in advantage and able to sneak attack
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