Larian Studios
Posted By: UnderworldHades Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 01:54 AM
Now, I'm creating this because Larian stated they wanted people to be evil and to test it to make it worth being evil, and having a satisfying story. For this particular discussion I'm gonna focus on the Goblin vs Grove situation, so FULL SPOILERS for that.

I'm gonna start off by saying right off the bat, when you go back to the tieflings and go "im joining the goblins", all my companions disapproved except Astarion, and I mention this because they said we will be getting evil/neutral companions for EA and from the start of being evil the player is punished. If these so called Evil companions disagree with me, then there is a few major issues with the evil storyline, which is what I want to talk about.

Now, from the the player is abducted and had a tadpole inserted into their eye and the companions they meet are adamant about having this removed, and that's fine. But the narrative doesn't really PUSH you towards being evil and neither do these companions. Now the biggest lead you have for this is Halsin, and i would consider him to be on the "good" side, where I should side with the grove to get his help. What incentive is there for me to help the goblins? The game doesn't really do anything to push their agenda and make you want to do. A smart evil character would still help Grove and get Halsins help because they want to figure out what's going on, what the option we have now is stupid evil instead. We are never enticed with anything to go join the Absolute. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to get out of helping the goblins and Minthara kill everyone. There isn't an enticing promise of answers or rewards for going down that path vs. just helping the refugees and finding Halsin to heal you from the tadpole. Right now the only reason you would help is because "fuck all these refugees and druids". Again, stupid evil IMO.

Everything up to that point in the game (being kidnapped by Illithids, all your companions explaining what the tadpoles do, and being concerned with getting healed) reinforces that we should want nothing to do with the Absolute because they violated us and will rid us of our free will if we don't get rid of the parasite. No type of evil character would want to help the goblins because we get nothing. Hell I lost Wyll after that, which is cool, and a good consequence, but that's it. I gained nothing from this it seems like. Now, I will say I'm interested in the story still. I wanna know what happens if I follow this trail, will i see Minthara again, will she be a companion or a returning side character? There is potential but just to see what could happen, but there are no rewards. You don't get any extra powers from it, nothing about healers (the priestess Gut wants to kill me bc I took the "Drow" option with sleep potion and then she goes "oh this will hurt"). I guess it was cool I had sex with her? But I mean at that night 3 of my companions were ready to sleep with me, and I lost 1 companion and gained...nothing.

Now I think the best way to fix it would be to have Minthara or someone else meet you REALLY early on and tell you, maybe entice you about the powers you can get. Have her tell you about the true souls, she shows you the power you can get if you use the tadpole, but right now there isn't anything like it. No character storywise would want to help goblins, even an evil one (smart evil one). It's kind of funny when the tiefling "Zevlor" asked me why I was doing this and i was like "uhhh....Bc Larian told me to? Whoops!" In the end, the Evil storyline for Grove vs Goblin needs more rewards and enticing. Why should my character risk dealing with them instead of looking for a healer, especially Halsin who is the best lead. Should I be doing it bc I got to bang the drow lol?

Would love to hear other peoples thoughts on what they think of this, and maybe ways to fix it, that way Larian can add/make some changes to make the evil side satisfying.
Posted By: Denzla Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 02:05 AM
I agree, even an evil character with at least 8 INT would choose druids in this situation. It would serve their interests better to befriend the druids.
Posted By: Orbax Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 02:07 AM
You can be a bit extra evil and kill Kagha by accusing her of being a shadow druid, get some more blood goin. Although, I wonder if you can kill Halsin and try to forge an alliance with the evil druids *thinking face*
Originally Posted by Orbax
You can be a bit extra evil and kill Kagha by accusing her of being a shadow druid, get some more blood goin. Although, I wonder if you can kill Halsin and try to forge an alliance with the evil druids *thinking face*



I believe you can, sort of? Like that storyline would involve Kagha still locking the Grove, but that still closes the avenue of Halsin being the best healer, which is what any type of character would be pursuing. I can see an evil character going after the power of the absolute/tadpole, but for our characters that's never really made clear. No incentive to go for the power bc we don't know about the power. Our characters are only told gruesome stories about about how you become a mindflayer LOL
Posted By: Orbax Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 02:28 AM
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Originally Posted by Orbax
You can be a bit extra evil and kill Kagha by accusing her of being a shadow druid, get some more blood goin. Although, I wonder if you can kill Halsin and try to forge an alliance with the evil druids *thinking face*



I believe you can, sort of? Like that storyline would involve Kagha still locking the Grove, but that still closes the avenue of Halsin being the best healer, which is what any type of character would be pursuing. I can see an evil character going after the power of the absolute/tadpole, but for our characters that's never really made clear. No incentive to go for the power bc we don't know about the power. Our characters are only told gruesome stories about about how you become a mindflayer LOL


haha true. you are right though, you have to be short-sighted right now to play hard core evil. i met the tiefling kids, they said theyd be in baldurs gate. *chin scratch* they do look like theyd be crappy and get in with the thieves guild...screw it, have the idol. I hate the druids anyway. No matter how sneaky you are with the idol, if it gets interrupted the druids attack the tieflings. So I think you have to do it after you clear the way for the refugees. Then have your way with the fools back in the grove.Im doing a relatively evil playthrough right now and didnt do anything in the grove other than save, test the shadow druids thing on kagha and get in a fight, reload and leave. I am going to the underdark before I go there to get the anti-magic flowers and and want to throw them around and murder those staff wielding hippies. Stuff like that. Do the "right" thing now, and then go back and murder them all haha.
Posted By: clavis Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 02:46 AM
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Now, I'm creating this because Larian stated they wanted people to be evil and to test it to make it worth being evil, and having a satisfying story. For this particular discussion I'm gonna focus on the Goblin vs Grove situation, so FULL SPOILERS for that.

I'm gonna start off by saying right off the bat, when you go back to the tieflings and go "im joining the goblins", all my companions disapproved except Astarion, and I mention this because they said we will be getting evil/neutral companions for EA and from the start of being evil the player is punished. If these so called Evil companions disagree with me, then there is a few major issues with the evil storyline, which is what I want to talk about.

Now, from the the player is abducted and had a tadpole inserted into their eye and the companions they meet are adamant about having this removed, and that's fine. But the narrative doesn't really PUSH you towards being evil and neither do these companions. Now the biggest lead you have for this is Halsin, and i would consider him to be on the "good" side, where I should side with the grove to get his help. What incentive is there for me to help the goblins? The game doesn't really do anything to push their agenda and make you want to do. A smart evil character would still help Grove and get Halsins help because they want to figure out what's going on, what the option we have now is stupid evil instead. We are never enticed with anything to go join the Absolute. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to get out of helping the goblins and Minthara kill everyone. There isn't an enticing promise of answers or rewards for going down that path vs. just helping the refugees and finding Halsin to heal you from the tadpole. Right now the only reason you would help is because "fuck all these refugees and druids". Again, stupid evil IMO.

Everything up to that point in the game (being kidnapped by Illithids, all your companions explaining what the tadpoles do, and being concerned with getting healed) reinforces that we should want nothing to do with the Absolute because they violated us and will rid us of our free will if we don't get rid of the parasite. No type of evil character would want to help the goblins because we get nothing. Hell I lost Wyll after that, which is cool, and a good consequence, but that's it. I gained nothing from this it seems like. Now, I will say I'm interested in the story still. I wanna know what happens if I follow this trail, will i see Minthara again, will she be a companion or a returning side character? There is potential but just to see what could happen, but there are no rewards. You don't get any extra powers from it, nothing about healers (the priestess Gut wants to kill me bc I took the "Drow" option with sleep potion and then she goes "oh this will hurt"). I guess it was cool I had sex with her? But I mean at that night 3 of my companions were ready to sleep with me, and I lost 1 companion and gained...nothing.

Now I think the best way to fix it would be to have Minthara or someone else meet you REALLY early on and tell you, maybe entice you about the powers you can get. Have her tell you about the true souls, she shows you the power you can get if you use the tadpole, but right now there isn't anything like it. No character storywise would want to help goblins, even an evil one (smart evil one). It's kind of funny when the tiefling "Zevlor" asked me why I was doing this and i was like "uhhh....Bc Larian told me to? Whoops!" In the end, the Evil storyline for Grove vs Goblin needs more rewards and enticing. Why should my character risk dealing with them instead of looking for a healer, especially Halsin who is the best lead. Should I be doing it bc I got to bang the drow lol?

Would love to hear other peoples thoughts on what they think of this, and maybe ways to fix it, that way Larian can add/make some changes to make the evil side satisfying.


Then what about siding with the cambion?

As for Halsin if he is as he seems to be then he is good, and helping him means you may have just helped a powerful enemy down the line, once your evil ways are known. Aiding Kagha seems the better choice, because she wants the grove locked. Yet if you follow grove free Halsin, he takes over again in the grove, again he appears to be good by him letting in the refugees, so your arming a potential enemy not only by giving him his grove back, but keeping it whole/intact. He's also made friends with the refugees by letting them in, they are another potential enemy or at least spies for Halsin.

If you help the goblins, destroy the grove, kill refugees you've elminated Halsins power base, and followers, and kept his potential allies from becoming stronger, or making more allies. Lowered the chance that he'll be able to come after you if you turn evil, and since you helped the goblins, they can serve as distractions for any bloody Heros that may want to target you, because your evil. Instead they have to focus on the goblin, with Priestess Guts. The Emerald Enclave then has to turn their attention towards the goblins to retaliate and reclaim Halsin's grove, Balders Gate has a large group of better armed, and prepared goblins then the usual masses on their doorstep. Again bigger threat for the moment then you. So 'stupid evil' or is it your playing for the long run, covering your tracks, by keeping everyone focused on other for the moment bigger threats while you go do what you gotta do. Taking out potential threats before they realize your a threat, and making all the other goody goods think it was someone/something else?
Originally Posted by clavis
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Now, I'm creating this because Larian stated they wanted people to be evil and to test it to make it worth being evil, and having a satisfying story. For this particular discussion I'm gonna focus on the Goblin vs Grove situation, so FULL SPOILERS for that.

I'm gonna start off by saying right off the bat, when you go back to the tieflings and go "im joining the goblins", all my companions disapproved except Astarion, and I mention this because they said we will be getting evil/neutral companions for EA and from the start of being evil the player is punished. If these so called Evil companions disagree with me, then there is a few major issues with the evil storyline, which is what I want to talk about.

Now, from the the player is abducted and had a tadpole inserted into their eye and the companions they meet are adamant about having this removed, and that's fine. But the narrative doesn't really PUSH you towards being evil and neither do these companions. Now the biggest lead you have for this is Halsin, and i would consider him to be on the "good" side, where I should side with the grove to get his help. What incentive is there for me to help the goblins? The game doesn't really do anything to push their agenda and make you want to do. A smart evil character would still help Grove and get Halsins help because they want to figure out what's going on, what the option we have now is stupid evil instead. We are never enticed with anything to go join the Absolute. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to get out of helping the goblins and Minthara kill everyone. There isn't an enticing promise of answers or rewards for going down that path vs. just helping the refugees and finding Halsin to heal you from the tadpole. Right now the only reason you would help is because "fuck all these refugees and druids". Again, stupid evil IMO.

Everything up to that point in the game (being kidnapped by Illithids, all your companions explaining what the tadpoles do, and being concerned with getting healed) reinforces that we should want nothing to do with the Absolute because they violated us and will rid us of our free will if we don't get rid of the parasite. No type of evil character would want to help the goblins because we get nothing. Hell I lost Wyll after that, which is cool, and a good consequence, but that's it. I gained nothing from this it seems like. Now, I will say I'm interested in the story still. I wanna know what happens if I follow this trail, will i see Minthara again, will she be a companion or a returning side character? There is potential but just to see what could happen, but there are no rewards. You don't get any extra powers from it, nothing about healers (the priestess Gut wants to kill me bc I took the "Drow" option with sleep potion and then she goes "oh this will hurt"). I guess it was cool I had sex with her? But I mean at that night 3 of my companions were ready to sleep with me, and I lost 1 companion and gained...nothing.

Now I think the best way to fix it would be to have Minthara or someone else meet you REALLY early on and tell you, maybe entice you about the powers you can get. Have her tell you about the true souls, she shows you the power you can get if you use the tadpole, but right now there isn't anything like it. No character storywise would want to help goblins, even an evil one (smart evil one). It's kind of funny when the tiefling "Zevlor" asked me why I was doing this and i was like "uhhh....Bc Larian told me to? Whoops!" In the end, the Evil storyline for Grove vs Goblin needs more rewards and enticing. Why should my character risk dealing with them instead of looking for a healer, especially Halsin who is the best lead. Should I be doing it bc I got to bang the drow lol?

Would love to hear other peoples thoughts on what they think of this, and maybe ways to fix it, that way Larian can add/make some changes to make the evil side satisfying.


Then what about siding with the cambion?

As for Halsin if he is as he seems to be then he is good, and helping him means you may have just helped a powerful enemy down the line, once your evil ways are known. Aiding Kagha seems the better choice, because she wants the grove locked. Yet if you follow grove free Halsin, he takes over again in the grove, again he appears to be good by him letting in the refugees, so your arming a potential enemy not only by giving him his grove back, but keeping it whole/intact. He's also made friends with the refugees by letting them in, they are another potential enemy or at least spies for Halsin.

If you help the goblins, destroy the grove, kill refugees you've elminated Halsins power base, and followers, and kept his potential allies from becoming stronger, or making more allies. Lowered the chance that he'll be able to come after you if you turn evil, and since you helped the goblins, they can serve as distractions for any bloody Heros that may want to target you, because your evil. Instead they have to focus on the goblin, with Priestess Guts. The Emerald Enclave then has to turn their attention towards the goblins to retaliate and reclaim Halsin's grove, Balders Gate has a large group of better armed, and prepared goblins then the usual masses on their doorstep. Again bigger threat for the moment then you. So 'stupid evil' or is it your playing for the long run, covering your tracks, by keeping everyone focused on other for the moment bigger threats while you go do what you gotta do. Taking out potential threats before they realize your a threat, and making all the other goody goods think it was someone/something else?


Do you mean Raphael when you say cambion? Because he only appeared once for me and never got a chance to make the deal. And as with the rest (including cambion), yes i can do those things, but the question is WHY. Even an evil character (smart evil character) would not make a deal with raphael. Why would he/she? You're trading your soul essentially and that is all the Cambions, devils etc deal in. A evil character is selfish, they won't make a deal that jeopardizes them. In the same vain, yes i helped the Goblins, but storywise it makes no sense for my character to do that. We are never enticed into doing it except because my character is just...bloodthirsty? For the sake of twirling mustache evil? The main focus of the storyline is pushing for a healer, the best one being Halsin so why would an evil character who cares about themselves first and foremost not want to do w/e it takes to help Halsin to get the help they need. The character needs more to go on to be evil and side with goblins.

I did that quest by siding with the goblins and i killed everyone, in the end nothing about a healer happened, i lost a companion bc he didnt want to be with me (which is fine), but i also didn't gain anything. No new power, no amazing loot given to me by the drow, she didnt join as a companion, i got nothing. Like I said, im curious to see how that story goes, it did a decent job of making me want to see what's next but not my character. Our character is not told why we should care about The Absolute or what it can do for us. Even the "evil" companions want healers to get rid of the tadpole except Astarion. Your points about "goblins serve as distractions" means nothing. It's just you making up story of what they can do. It doesn't solve the issue of why the character should follow them in terms of story. There is no "keeping everyone focused on other threats", there is no system like this in the game. It's very basic 1 for 1 right now.
Posted By: clavis Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 03:07 AM
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Originally Posted by clavis
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Now, I'm creating this because Larian stated they wanted people to be evil and to test it to make it worth being evil, and having a satisfying story. For this particular discussion I'm gonna focus on the Goblin vs Grove situation, so FULL SPOILERS for that.

I'm gonna start off by saying right off the bat, when you go back to the tieflings and go "im joining the goblins", all my companions disapproved except Astarion, and I mention this because they said we will be getting evil/neutral companions for EA and from the start of being evil the player is punished. If these so called Evil companions disagree with me, then there is a few major issues with the evil storyline, which is what I want to talk about.

Now, from the the player is abducted and had a tadpole inserted into their eye and the companions they meet are adamant about having this removed, and that's fine. But the narrative doesn't really PUSH you towards being evil and neither do these companions. Now the biggest lead you have for this is Halsin, and i would consider him to be on the "good" side, where I should side with the grove to get his help. What incentive is there for me to help the goblins? The game doesn't really do anything to push their agenda and make you want to do. A smart evil character would still help Grove and get Halsins help because they want to figure out what's going on, what the option we have now is stupid evil instead. We are never enticed with anything to go join the Absolute. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to get out of helping the goblins and Minthara kill everyone. There isn't an enticing promise of answers or rewards for going down that path vs. just helping the refugees and finding Halsin to heal you from the tadpole. Right now the only reason you would help is because "fuck all these refugees and druids". Again, stupid evil IMO.

Everything up to that point in the game (being kidnapped by Illithids, all your companions explaining what the tadpoles do, and being concerned with getting healed) reinforces that we should want nothing to do with the Absolute because they violated us and will rid us of our free will if we don't get rid of the parasite. No type of evil character would want to help the goblins because we get nothing. Hell I lost Wyll after that, which is cool, and a good consequence, but that's it. I gained nothing from this it seems like. Now, I will say I'm interested in the story still. I wanna know what happens if I follow this trail, will i see Minthara again, will she be a companion or a returning side character? There is potential but just to see what could happen, but there are no rewards. You don't get any extra powers from it, nothing about healers (the priestess Gut wants to kill me bc I took the "Drow" option with sleep potion and then she goes "oh this will hurt"). I guess it was cool I had sex with her? But I mean at that night 3 of my companions were ready to sleep with me, and I lost 1 companion and gained...nothing.

Now I think the best way to fix it would be to have Minthara or someone else meet you REALLY early on and tell you, maybe entice you about the powers you can get. Have her tell you about the true souls, she shows you the power you can get if you use the tadpole, but right now there isn't anything like it. No character storywise would want to help goblins, even an evil one (smart evil one). It's kind of funny when the tiefling "Zevlor" asked me why I was doing this and i was like "uhhh....Bc Larian told me to? Whoops!" In the end, the Evil storyline for Grove vs Goblin needs more rewards and enticing. Why should my character risk dealing with them instead of looking for a healer, especially Halsin who is the best lead. Should I be doing it bc I got to bang the drow lol?

Would love to hear other peoples thoughts on what they think of this, and maybe ways to fix it, that way Larian can add/make some changes to make the evil side satisfying.


Then what about siding with the cambion?

As for Halsin if he is as he seems to be then he is good, and helping him means you may have just helped a powerful enemy down the line, once your evil ways are known. Aiding Kagha seems the better choice, because she wants the grove locked. Yet if you follow grove free Halsin, he takes over again in the grove, again he appears to be good by him letting in the refugees, so your arming a potential enemy not only by giving him his grove back, but keeping it whole/intact. He's also made friends with the refugees by letting them in, they are another potential enemy or at least spies for Halsin.

If you help the goblins, destroy the grove, kill refugees you've elminated Halsins power base, and followers, and kept his potential allies from becoming stronger, or making more allies. Lowered the chance that he'll be able to come after you if you turn evil, and since you helped the goblins, they can serve as distractions for any bloody Heros that may want to target you, because your evil. Instead they have to focus on the goblin, with Priestess Guts. The Emerald Enclave then has to turn their attention towards the goblins to retaliate and reclaim Halsin's grove, Balders Gate has a large group of better armed, and prepared goblins then the usual masses on their doorstep. Again bigger threat for the moment then you. So 'stupid evil' or is it your playing for the long run, covering your tracks, by keeping everyone focused on other for the moment bigger threats while you go do what you gotta do. Taking out potential threats before they realize your a threat, and making all the other goody goods think it was someone/something else?


Do you mean Raphael when you say cambion? Because he only appeared once for me and never got a chance to make the deal. And as with the rest (including cambion), yes i can do those things, but the question is WHY. Even an evil character (smart evil character) would not make a deal with raphael. Why would he/she? You're trading your soul essentially and that is all the Cambions, devils etc deal in. A evil character is selfish, they won't make a deal that jeopardizes them. In the same vain, yes i helped the Goblins, but storywise it makes no sense for my character to do that. We are never enticed into doing it except because my character is just...bloodthirsty? For the sake of twirling mustache evil? The main focus of the storyline is pushing for a healer, the best one being Halsin so why would an evil character who cares about themselves first and foremost not want to do w/e it takes to help Halsin to get the help they need. The character needs more to go on to be evil and side with goblins.

I did that quest by siding with the goblins and i killed everyone, in the end nothing about a healer happened, i lost a companion bc he didnt want to be with me (which is fine), but i also didn't gain anything. No new power, no amazing loot given to me by the drow, she didnt join as a companion, i got nothing. Like I said, im curious to see how that story goes, it did a decent job of making me want to see what's next but not my character. Our character is not told why we should care about The Absolute or what it can do for us. Even the "evil" companions want healers to get rid of the tadpole except Astarion. Your points about "goblins serve as distractions" means nothing. It's just you making up story of what they can do. It doesn't solve the issue of why the character should follow them in terms of story. There is no "keeping everyone focused on other threats", there is no system like this in the game. It's very basic 1 for 1 right now.


Do we know for a fact that there won't be repercussions down the road, or a greater reward for helping the goblins. As for what we know or don't know. We don't know if Halsin is alive, when we choose things in the grove, what we do know is Nettie if you do that tries to kill you. That Kagda is seeking to seal the grove. The story I wove was looking at the world through my characters eyes as this is a Role Playing Game, and not what I would do based on rl facts, and what I know to be limitations of computer games. Which in pnp is considered meta and a nono, and I out of habit try not to look through the my own eye, and rather through the eyes of my character. One cause it's been instilled through pnp, and two to immerse myself in the game world.

But since we are basing everything on what we know to be limitations of video games, and facts we know to be true in the real world. I'll end up beating the game, so it really doesn't matter if I'm good or evil, if I trade my soul, or not. Because it's simply a game, and why should I care what I do.
Originally Posted by clavis


Do we know for a fact that there won't be repercussions down the road, or a greater reward for helping the goblins. As for what we know or don't know. We don't know if Halsin is alive, when we choose things in the grove, what we do know is Nettie if you do that tries to kill you. That Kagda is seeking to seal the grove. The story I wove was looking at the world through my characters eyes as this is a Role Playing Game, and not what I would do based on rl facts, and what I know to be limitations of computer games. Which in pnp is considered meta and a nono, and I out of habit try not to look through the my own eye, and rather through the eyes of my character. One cause it's been instilled through pnp, and two to immerse myself in the game world.

But since we are basing everything on what we know to be limitations of video games, and facts we know to be true in the real world. I'll end up beating the game, so it really doesn't matter if I'm good or evil, if I trade my soul, or not. Because it's simply a game, and why should I care what I do.


I know for certain Halsin is dead cuz i killed him lol.

But I don't see why you're discussing this if your response is "its simply a game and why should i care what I do". Nothing else to add with you then.
Posted By: benbaxter Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 03:12 AM
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Now I think the best way to fix it would be to have Minthara or someone else meet you REALLY early on and tell you, maybe entice you about the powers you can get. Have her tell you about the true souls, she shows you the power you can get if you use the tadpole, but right now there isn't anything like it. No character storywise would want to help goblins, even an evil one (smart evil one). It's kind of funny when the tiefling "Zevlor" asked me why I was doing this and i was like "uhhh....Bc Larian told me to? Whoops!" In the end, the Evil storyline for Grove vs Goblin needs more rewards and enticing. Why should my character risk dealing with them instead of looking for a healer, especially Halsin who is the best lead. Should I be doing it bc I got to bang the drow lol?


100% agreed http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=694988#Post694988
Posted By: clavis Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 03:19 AM
That actually wasn't my response to begin with. It was your response about game design, and that won't happen in the game. Which is you the person behind the computers response. When if you look through your characters eyes then what I posted and you discounted could very well happen. I gathered you wanted a response to you the person behind the comp on why you should play the evil side. rather then why your character would want to be evil, and do the evil things.

The responses are totally different you the player already know the outcome, you win, so therefore what you do really doesn't matter.

You the character unless 'stupid evil' would be looking towards the future, as well as the present. After all by time you hit the grove you've found 3 alternatives. Priestess Guts who maybe able to help you, if not rid you of this tadpole can teach you to control it, thus increasing your personal power. Rapheal or whatever the cambions name is who can aid you and possibly grant you additional boons for additional cost of your soul. your not really using it, and power is power the more you have the less likely someone can kill you. Then theres the creche which according to La'eazal will be a sure fire thing. At the grove itself Halsin may or may not be dead, but your character would be able to suss out that he is good, therefore is a threat or potential threat, and if you aid him he'll have the backing of his grove as well.

Again this is all dependant on how your viewing everything. as a gamer, or as your character.

some rewards are not monetary, but instead based upon personal satisfaction, or future plans.
I am looking as my character. Larian said they wanted to data on being evil, to make a satisfying run, to see how the story goes. And from my characters point of view it is missing a few key things to make the evil side in this particular scenario worth it. Think of it as RP'ing as that character or just going for an immersive story. I don't want to view it as a gamer/player, at that point I should be metagaming shit if i can. I want to make choices based on what my character knows.
Posted By: clavis Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 03:29 AM
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
I am looking as my character. Larian said they wanted to data on being evil, to make a satisfying run, to see how the story goes. And from my characters point of view it is missing a few key things to make the evil side in this particular scenario worth it. Think of it as RP'ing as that character or just going for an immersive story. I don't want to view it as a gamer/player, at that point I should be metagaming shit if i can. I want to make choices based on what my character knows.


and my woven story is very possible what could go through your characters head. he has a chance to remove a threat grove/halsin and keep other threats Emerald Enclave, Harpers, Balder Gate guards, random Heros, busy. Sure it's not money, Halsin was never a sure bet in the first place, and there are other options.

Which begs further questions is he willing to leave a known force of good who has sided with the Harpers in the past alive, when he can get aid in destroying it now. Then try for what seems the surer option with the Gith creche as La'ezel is adament that they can cure the tadpole. Or does he try the cambion and hope to find a way to screw it out of his soul. Thus costing him nothing in the long run, if he's a wizard is he can try to find out how to become a lich. Thus the cambion will have to wait longer, and he may very well be able to kill the cambion later on. or is he set on swift gains, and short term?
Posted By: benbaxter Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 03:33 AM
But that is just your head-canon. We are talking about what the game is presenting us/our characters.
Posted By: clavis Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 03:38 AM
Originally Posted by benbaxter
But that is just your head-canon. We are talking about what the game is presenting us/our characters.


Everything I've used is in game. the druid grove siding with harpers in the past. The Emerald Enclave, The random heros, Balders Gates having guards, the goblins, Raphael, the creche. All of it is mentioned or found when you enter the grove.

much of it is because my evil character is a drow lloth sworn. so she is looking for information on this grove to please Lloth, while looking for a cure for tadpole.
Posted By: BROttorney Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 03:48 AM
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Do you mean Raphael when you say cambion? Because he only appeared once for me and never got a chance to make the deal. And as with the rest (including cambion), yes i can do those things, but the question is WHY. Even an evil character (smart evil character) would not make a deal with raphael. Why would he/she? You're trading your soul essentially and that is all the Cambions, devils etc deal in. A evil character is selfish, they won't make a deal that jeopardizes them. In the same vain, yes i helped the Goblins, but storywise it makes no sense for my character to do that. We are never enticed into doing it except because my character is just...bloodthirsty? For the sake of twirling mustache evil? The main focus of the storyline is pushing for a healer, the best one being Halsin so why would an evil character who cares about themselves first and foremost not want to do w/e it takes to help Halsin to get the help they need. The character needs more to go on to be evil and side with goblins.

I did that quest by siding with the goblins and i killed everyone, in the end nothing about a healer happened, i lost a companion bc he didnt want to be with me (which is fine), but i also didn't gain anything. No new power, no amazing loot given to me by the drow, she didnt join as a companion, i got nothing. Like I said, im curious to see how that story goes, it did a decent job of making me want to see what's next but not my character. Our character is not told why we should care about The Absolute or what it can do for us. Even the "evil" companions want healers to get rid of the tadpole except Astarion. Your points about "goblins serve as distractions" means nothing. It's just you making up story of what they can do. It doesn't solve the issue of why the character should follow them in terms of story. There is no "keeping everyone focused on other threats", there is no system like this in the game. It's very basic 1 for 1 right now.


I think a smart evil character can make a deal with Raphael. A smart NE character will pay with someone else's soul. A smart LE character will make a deal with Raphael that can never actually be collected on because rules lawyering. Ever read the "Children of the Nameless" MTG novella? Think "You can have my soul if I don't die before I turn 65." While the character plainly knows that they have previously died and thus the devil can never fulfill their end.

Posted By: benbaxter Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 03:57 AM
Originally Posted by clavis
Originally Posted by benbaxter
But that is just your head-canon. We are talking about what the game is presenting us/our characters.


Everything I've used is in game. the druid grove siding with harpers in the past. The Emerald Enclave, The random heros, Balders Gates having guards, the goblins, Raphael, the creche. All of it is mentioned or found when you enter the grove.


You wrote a lot and made some good points smile

A lot of it is meta information though.
Example 1: How would my character know what Helsin was planning ahead of time? And honestly, if an evil character did have full knowledge of the situation, then it would be best to leave both parties at their throats in a stalemate that leaves my character room to operate and play them against each other.
Example 2: how would a character not from this area know about the current political situation topside in Faerun, let alone the localized situation in BG. If you are a Gith, you aren't even hanging out in this plane of existence very often.
Example 3: And I think this is the crux of both of these posts: How in the world would my character know about Priestess Guts and the opportunities that the goblin army presents?
Originally Posted by BROttorney


I think a smart evil character can make a deal with Raphael. A smart NE character will pay with someone else's soul. A smart LE character will make a deal with Raphael that can never actually be collected on because rules lawyering. Ever read the "Children of the Nameless" MTG novella? Think "You can have my soul if I don't die before I turn 65." While the character plainly knows that they have previously died and thus the devil can never fulfill their end.



That is a good idea, about paying with someone elses soul. Kind of like the Kharlach side quest, with the Tyr paladins type thing? But ofc that brings the point if that devil can be trusted, but that's a whole other thing so lets not jump there lol. It would be nice if paying with someone elses soul is an option later in the game if you do deal with Raphael.
Posted By: Moirnelithe Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 04:17 AM
I noticed that after the initial fight at the entrance of the Grove astarion suggests to immediately leave because most likely more goblins will come. Issue with this is if you do so you will not know about the auntie Ethel option, nor would you know about priestess gut. Do you even know halsin is a healer at that point? And finally if you do follow astarion advice why would you then go into a full camp of goblins considering you're trying to avoid goblins in the first place. And then what, the only options left are the gith and Raphael which you can't do in ea. You have a map full of places that you cannot explore cause goblins!
Posted By: Tylm Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 04:27 AM
I think Larian should deepen the antipathy one feels towards the substitute druidess. I mean, before I met Halsin, the druids in the grove were really selfish (except 1) and disdainful of refugees. And since we can (depending on the path we take) meet the pretty drow before to meet the imprisoned druid, it would be pretty smart if she tries to manipulate us by saying that the grove ritual will eradicate the area, killing the refugees and locals. Moreover it would make this choice look like the "right one" because we choose either to save the people, or to heal ourselves with the druids of the grove. Especially until now the people who propose to treat us have all failed...

It would be a good idea to create a funny friendly goblin with whom we create a link, making us feel guilty for razing his village to the ground. The one we saved just makes me want to set fire to the first goblin camp I come across because it smells of betrayal from far, far away.

The scenario is sometime too dichotomous, manichean, it would be more immersive to constantly have this feeling of "gosh, did I do the right thing?" as a good or bad player. (ex : Investigating the devil with the paladins of Tyr falsifying evidence. And don't make the speech with the tiefling so obvious).

Sorry for my english, say it if you dont understand my though.

Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
I noticed that after the initial fight at the entrance of the Grove astarion suggests to immediately leave because most likely more goblins will come. Issue with this is if you do so you will not know about the auntie Ethel option, nor would you know about priestess gut. Do you even know halsin is a healer at that point? And finally if you do follow astarion advice why would you then go into a full camp of goblins considering you're trying to avoid goblins in the first place. And then what, the only options left are the gith and Raphael which you can't do in ea. You have a map full of places that you cannot explore cause goblins!

If you can't explore an area because something alive is blocking your path, then you aren't playing an Evil character correctly.
Posted By: BROttorney Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 04:29 AM
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Originally Posted by BROttorney


I think a smart evil character can make a deal with Raphael. A smart NE character will pay with someone else's soul. A smart LE character will make a deal with Raphael that can never actually be collected on because rules lawyering. Ever read the "Children of the Nameless" MTG novella? Think "You can have my soul if I don't die before I turn 65." While the character plainly knows that they have previously died and thus the devil can never fulfill their end.



That is a good idea, about paying with someone elses soul. Kind of like the Kharlach side quest, with the Tyr paladins type thing? But ofc that brings the point if that devil can be trusted, but that's a whole other thing so lets not jump there lol. It would be nice if paying with someone elses soul is an option later in the game if you do deal with Raphael.


I'm not familiar enough with DnD rules but some tiefling in the druid camp gives you a soul coin without much prodding. She thinks you're some Devil's agent come to collect. She just gives it to you. Couldn't you pay Raphael with that?
Posted By: clavis Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 04:32 AM
Originally Posted by benbaxter
Originally Posted by clavis
Originally Posted by benbaxter
But that is just your head-canon. We are talking about what the game is presenting us/our characters.


Everything I've used is in game. the druid grove siding with harpers in the past. The Emerald Enclave, The random heros, Balders Gates having guards, the goblins, Raphael, the creche. All of it is mentioned or found when you enter the grove.


You wrote a lot and made some good points smile

A lot of it is meta information though.
Example 1: How would my character know what Helsin was planning ahead of time? And honestly, if an evil character did have full knowledge of the situation, then it would be best to leave both parties at their throats in a stalemate that leaves my character room to operate and play them against each other.
Example 2: how would a character not from this area know about the current political situation topside in Faerun, let alone the localized situation in BG. If you are a Gith, you aren't even hanging out in this plane of existence very often.
Example 3: And I think this is the crux of both of these posts: How in the world would my character know about Priestess Guts and the opportunities that the goblin army presents?


#1 helsin is good do to certain readables within the grove, also he has invited the refugees to stay, when everyone else in the grove is against it. Also other readables inside the grove tell of the groves past. By talking to the refugees, and druids you learn more of the going on around you. The frequent attacks by monster races, you yourself witnessed goblins attacking the grove.

#2. Again by talking to the refugees you learn about your immedaite surroundings, by talking to the druids you learn of their feelings towards the refugees, and also the current politics of the druids. Which by more talking you learn that more about Halsin. Then by looking at readables you learn yet more about him, again another conversation and you learn more about him. By exploring the camp and talking to certain people you learn of Priestess Guts. Knowing about Heros, and Balder Gate guards is simple Heros are always searching for evil, and alot of history which you learn in Menzobarean deals with Lloths truimphs over these Heros. A city having guards patrolling is just common sense, all cities have guards, they are always on the lookout. Drow raid topside so they learn about the land above them. As for Gith her information is coming from a conversation with La'eazel, also La'eazel is always vocal about how the creche will provide a cure. So again conversations, reading, exploring inside and before the Grove leads to these non meta information.

#3 again it comes from talking to certain people or person within the Grove. As for goblins most everyone knows about/heard about goblin raids, and goblin ambushes etc. Bards sing of deeds down by mighty hero's, maybe a Hero themself once talked to your character. As a drow my character's house even if minor would have goblin slaves, among other slaves. Also again the history taught within the drow schools to the Drow, or even her parents. Then after witnessing the goblin attack, talking, exploring, and reading whats laying about, or things that just happen to fall into your lap.

Your character may find all of this out. If they don't then he/she may, or may not come to the same conclussion. I was just proposing one, of several different conclusions and plots that may come to mind. Maybe they miss one thing only to learn about it in another encounter, maybe they feel that Halsin will never be a threat to them, so they side with him. Without moving past the Grove I've came up with several different options just from what I gathered in that one spot, and talking to my companions. It can further evolve as you get a better sense of everything through more encounters, the one I presented is theoritically sound, and may very well be what your character comes up with. yet as a theory based off information gathered it isn't proven in fact and therefore needs more investigation by my character. Then there is what may or may not happen on the road that may sway her into a different view, or another theory. Also her personal goals may change, therefore opening up different avenues of thought, and alternative theories. Which as of yet are not plans, just theories, based upon information gathering, and knowledge of goblins, and other monster races.

Posted By: Moirnelithe Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 04:34 AM
Originally Posted by fishworshipper
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
I noticed that after the initial fight at the entrance of the Grove astarion suggests to immediately leave because most likely more goblins will come. Issue with this is if you do so you will not know about the auntie Ethel option, nor would you know about priestess gut. Do you even know halsin is a healer at that point? And finally if you do follow astarion advice why would you then go into a full camp of goblins considering you're trying to avoid goblins in the first place. And then what, the only options left are the gith and Raphael which you can't do in ea. You have a map full of places that you cannot explore cause goblins!

If you can't explore an area because something alive is blocking your path, then you aren't playing an Evil character correctly.

I'm not a murder hobo. There is no gain in it and too much risk. Lawful evil playthrough just doesn't make sense to me. The only option in bg3 so far is stupid evil. Besides it's missing the point. Avoid goblins to go meet goblins? I need some seriously powerful motivation to go do what larian wants me to do and it's just not there.
Posted By: clavis Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 04:38 AM
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
I noticed that after the initial fight at the entrance of the Grove astarion suggests to immediately leave because most likely more goblins will come. Issue with this is if you do so you will not know about the auntie Ethel option, nor would you know about priestess gut. Do you even know halsin is a healer at that point? And finally if you do follow astarion advice why would you then go into a full camp of goblins considering you're trying to avoid goblins in the first place. And then what, the only options left are the gith and Raphael which you can't do in ea. You have a map full of places that you cannot explore cause goblins!


you learn about Halsins healing inside the grove from multipule people, you may later learn about it from some other source depending on what you do, where you go. The same is true for Priestess Gut, most of what you learn is centered within the druids Grove well it's the easiest place to pick up info. Other paths you take may well lead you to some of the knowledge found in the grove, but not all of it. As for avoiding goblins that also depends on where you go. I believe not 100% certain there is a path around the goblins, but again your looking for a healer. If you chose to not go into the grove that limits you to the cambion (if/when he shows up) and the Creche right at that point. yet you also don't learn things that La'eazel wants you to at that point.
Posted By: clavis Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 04:45 AM
Originally Posted by Tylm
I think Larian should deepen the antipathy one feels towards the substitute druidess. I mean, before I met Halsin, the druids in the grove were really selfish (except 1) and disdainful of refugees. And since we can (depending on the path we take) meet the pretty drow before to meet the imprisoned druid, it would be pretty smart if she tries to manipulate us by saying that the grove ritual will eradicate the area, killing the refugees and locals. Moreover it would make this choice look like the "right one" because we choose either to save the people, or to heal ourselves with the druids of the grove. Especially until now the people who propose to treat us have all failed...

It would be a good idea to create a funny friendly goblin with whom we create a link, making us feel guilty for razing his village to the ground. The one we saved just makes me want to set fire to the first goblin camp I come across because it smells of betrayal from far, far away.

Sorry for my english, say it if you dont understand my though.



think empathy towards the substitute is based on your character. One playthrough I saw her point, do to her desperation, and one of the things in her cut scene. Another I didn't let the cutscene play out and just killed her. Another I tried to intimidate her, another persuade her. I've killed her, knocked her unconscious, all depending on my character. I've missed lore because my character couldn't be bothered with it, so pretty much empathy towards her is based on what you think your character would do. Also if you notice some things in her cutscene and can try to read her feelings through what can be interpreted or misinterpreted by them. Then theirs dice rolls, etc. So lots of options to take, just which is best for what your character wants to do. Of course new things down the road may sway them, or make them regret a previous decision.
Originally Posted by BROttorney
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Originally Posted by BROttorney


I think a smart evil character can make a deal with Raphael. A smart NE character will pay with someone else's soul. A smart LE character will make a deal with Raphael that can never actually be collected on because rules lawyering. Ever read the "Children of the Nameless" MTG novella? Think "You can have my soul if I don't die before I turn 65." While the character plainly knows that they have previously died and thus the devil can never fulfill their end.



That is a good idea, about paying with someone elses soul. Kind of like the Kharlach side quest, with the Tyr paladins type thing? But ofc that brings the point if that devil can be trusted, but that's a whole other thing so lets not jump there lol. It would be nice if paying with someone elses soul is an option later in the game if you do deal with Raphael.


I'm not familiar enough with DnD rules but some tiefling in the druid camp gives you a soul coin without much prodding. She thinks you're some Devil's agent come to collect. She just gives it to you. Couldn't you pay Raphael with that?


Oh yeah there is that too lol. I dont think that coin has have had any use yet in EA, maybe something that pops up later? One of them could be for Raphael.
Posted By: Gray Ghost Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 09:35 AM
Originally Posted by clavis
That actually wasn't my response to begin with. It was your response about game design, and that won't happen in the game. Which is you the person behind the computers response. When if you look through your characters eyes then what I posted and you discounted could very well happen. I gathered you wanted a response to you the person behind the comp on why you should play the evil side. rather then why your character would want to be evil, and do the evil things.

The responses are totally different you the player already know the outcome, you win, so therefore what you do really doesn't matter.

You the character unless 'stupid evil' would be looking towards the future, as well as the present. After all by time you hit the grove you've found 3 alternatives. Priestess Guts who maybe able to help you, if not rid you of this tadpole can teach you to control it, thus increasing your personal power. Rapheal or whatever the cambions name is who can aid you and possibly grant you additional boons for additional cost of your soul. your not really using it, and power is power the more you have the less likely someone can kill you. Then theres the creche which according to La'eazal will be a sure fire thing. At the grove itself Halsin may or may not be dead, but your character would be able to suss out that he is good, therefore is a threat or potential threat, and if you aid him he'll have the backing of his grove as well.

Again this is all dependant on how your viewing everything. as a gamer, or as your character.

some rewards are not monetary, but instead based upon personal satisfaction, or future plans.


The problem with the priestess Gut route is that firstly, it seems quite easy to never hear about her, at least that was the case in my playthrough. Second is that you're never given a reason to think that the cult of the Absolute is anything more than a Mindflayer trap, and this is the important part. You're given no indication that they can actually help you in any real way and it's an unwise risk because you're risking the possibility that they can give you more power if you're right against the certainty of a fate worse than death if you're wrong. They need to be far more clear about what The Absolute can give you and that it's a viable way to deal with the tadpole, one that's not just a mindflayer trap, because at this point I recieved no evidence at all that it wasn't mindflayer manipulation.

Raphael is a risky proposition but one that I think a certain type of evil character would go for. It's risky, but someone confident they could play their cards right might take it.

Then with Halsin the problem with your thoughts here is that why would the PC feel the need to take Halsin into their future calculations? They don't actually live in the area, they're from Baldurs gate or potentially the Underdark. Either way wherever they're from it's far enough that Halsin's never heard of them and they've never heard of him. Presumably once they deal with the tadpole an evil character would be going back home where unless they're planning to like, take over the area, they would never have to be concerned with Halsin again. So Halsin is still a viable, reasonable option.

And then of course there's the Creche, which at first blush is the most obvious option for an evil character. They have a Githyanki in their party that can give them access to a creche and a means of healing themselves. She's the person with the most actual knowledge about Mindflayers currently in the party and her route is the most simple and direct one. By rights most evil characters shouldn't want to get involved with the goblins and druids at all because they call for a lot more runarounds and extra effort.
Posted By: Moirnelithe Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 10:56 AM
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost

And then of course there's the Creche, which at first blush is the most obvious option for an evil character. They have a Githyanki in their party that can give them access to a creche and a means of healing themselves. She's the person with the most actual knowledge about Mindflayers currently in the party and her route is the most simple and direct one. By rights most evil characters shouldn't want to get involved with the goblins and druids at all because they call for a lot more runarounds and extra effort.


Pretty much this. Playing the smart evil route simply isn't viable yet in EA, hopefully it will be in the future. There's still the issue that if you skip the goblins/grove/hag that you'll be way underlevelled to be able to actually go the githyanki route though since the patrol is level 5 and you'll be at best level 2 if you go straight for the bridge. Not to mention that you'll be missing out on companion / tadpole interactions in the camp.
Posted By: pgmoro Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 11:10 AM
There are more than one way to be evil, for instance helpinga khaga, I did a perfectly fine evil playthrough, roleplaying a character that considered themselves too good to go as low as to make an aliance with goblins, and ultimately killed them, but also helped khaga and the shadow druids and did a lot of evil choices.
Personaly I think that most evil characters should still despise goblins and don't want an aliance, specialy considering you are not there as theyer better but as one of their rank, actually taking orders from the goblin true soul, which evil characters with an ounce of self respect would do that?
I found that making an evil characters is not that hard, it's not about killing everyone that isn't evil as well, but making the choices that mostly benefit you, no Mather the consequences to others
Posted By: Aurgelmir Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 11:30 AM
+1

I was going to make a similar post to this.
The only reason I don't play "evil" is because evil seems like the worse choice.

Another issue I have in general with "the bad boy" route is that the bad boy choices seem to be the ones where you cut yourself off from content.
The "evil" thing to do isn't to go "Gosh Golly, please be my friend" to party members, it's to be "okay, you are on your own"

But why should it be the player characters choice to invite a character to the party? It would be better if they ask to join ME, and for me to react to that.

Evil to me is generally opportunistic, but they generally seem to be the bad solutions, and usually the ones that get's most of your party's disapproval. This is a party based game, so your party's approval is actually a huge control mechanism on what you choose to do. I'd love to see the cast of party members doubled, that way I would have the ability to let the correct people into my midst to play the evil route
Being introduced to the Absolute early on, by someone who speaks of it as a way to control the tadpole would make the choice of Removal or Integration a lot more interesting.

Further more, all the people who claim to know how to help you come up short, or are trying to trick you. So trusting the Goblin camp isn't exactly high on the list.

I have planned to go Team Goblin in my next playthrough, but I'm fearing how it will turn out to be honest... I fear I will have 4 grumpy party members on my hand.
Posted By: Druid_NPC Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 12:25 PM
Originally Posted by pgmoro
There are more than one way to be evil, for instance helpinga khaga, I did a perfectly fine evil playthrough, roleplaying a character that considered themselves too good to go as low as to make an aliance with goblins, and ultimately killed them, but also helped khaga and the shadow druids and did a lot of evil choices.
Personaly I think that most evil characters should still despise goblins and don't want an aliance, specialy considering you are not there as theyer better but as one of their rank, actually taking orders from the goblin true soul, which evil characters with an ounce of self respect would do that?
I found that making an evil characters is not that hard, it's not about killing everyone that isn't evil as well, but making the choices that mostly benefit you, no Mather the consequences to others


As Lolth-Sworn Drow for instance you hate the mind flayers and their "True Souls" but also wouldn't give a crap about refugees and Druids. It would be a matter of the enemy of my enemy is my friend (for now).
Posted By: clavis Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Originally Posted by clavis

.

absolute, priestess guts, stupd evil etc.


Good points to each, and believe it is much easier to work with now that it's explained from your view point. The Absolute from what I heard in the Grove not going on other conversations, and I may have heard wrong is a Goddess. So that is a sure fire way to get rid of the bug, if a mortal creature is able to put it in your head, Goddess can take it out with no difficulty what so ever. Though as you stated it's a cult with Priestess Guts at it's head it seems. If indeed you hear correctly that the Absolute is a goddess it's not a mind flayer trap do to the mind flayers not having a god but the Elder brain. (which as a drow my character would know. vs someone from the surface world wouldn't probably.) In any case it is worth a look, to further access if it is, or isn't. From what people know about Mind Flayers mostly from the ship, and if you read (actually it psionically projects something in your head. can be taken a couple ways since it is all together 3 lines.) the reports on the ship it gives some details as to mind flayers for those that don't know much about them. So my theory (note what i said and I apologize for being obscure, though I later amended it) is a theory, and needs further information gathering.

Raphael is risky, yet people do things like that for power alot they know it's inherently risky, yet still do it. After all if he has your soul, something people dont' use when their alive then why not right?? Also depending on how long your character lives, what class they are they might find a way to in the end get out of that deal. Lichdom being one way. Still risky, yet other ways as someone else stated to get out of it.

Halsin many of the characters despite Drow, and Gith seem to hail from Balders Gate which isn't from what has been said in game far from the Grove. If your character plans on doing evil things then he may and or may not think getting rid of the Grove, maybe even taking it over, since he has support currently be a good thing. After all now is a better chance to strike when everything is choatic then later when it's stable. Then there is the a chance the druids have powerful items that may help as well, if you can use them yourself you don't need Halsin. (again a theory that may or may not be true for your character. The idol does seem like a powerful magic foci). So it is an option both ways with again nothing concrete and noone at this time knows if Halsin is dead or not when you first hear about him. You know he's been captured, and goblins don't hold onto prisoners for long. (another find is goblin history, customs etc)

Dependng on backstory you made for your character it may not be wise to resettle again in Balders Gate, or the Underdark, or wherever you came from first. Or they're bored with it want new things etc., and a druid grove that is at first look well fortified would be a good place to start if its what they want to do building a base of power, especially do to the rumors of alot of monster races you can frighten, persuade etc to join in your cause.

Working with Gith is risky, sure Le'azel is adament about it, but Gith for the large part is the biggest unknown. More so then any of the other options, you know 1 gith. The fact you actually met a Gith is 'boggling' since they're from another plane of existance and more secretive then even Mind Flayers. So their culture, their wants, and desires are completely unknown. If you simply go by Le who is fanatical in her belief especially when it comes to killing mind flayers, and devotion to Vlaathica. Which makes them appear cultish much like the followers of the Absolute. Do gith take slaves, are the friendly with any other race (judging by Le's actions and words at this point, plus story when you do next step in her quest they are not friendly, they are quick to strike down other races, they are cultish, fanatics.) So based off Le, and what you've heard it seems more likely that if you go to the creche, they'll simple kill you, and heal Le.


edit response to other posts:

everyone is out to trick you and you to eventually trick you. You ask the other party members to accompany you, because currently you don't know what is out there, you've seen alot of dead intellect devourers and don't know if more are around. Also you are not sure if there are more mind flayers about. So traveling with someone makes sense, asking them to join you makes sense. After all when/if it gets bad all you have to do is outrun them, and the more you have around you the more likely that is to happen. Then there is if your one of the superior races, they are weaker then you pathetic but they may very well make a good slave, or henchman/woman in general. So better to test them, and see their potential.

As for working with goblins, it maybe a temporary thing until you can establish your own dominance over them, usurp their leaders, sway the masses to your cause, etc. The True Souls are not normal, so what can you learn from them before ultimately taking them out of the picture, or dominating them. Then having all their minions as your own, meaning more people to slow enemies down in case things go bad. Or maybe your character is stupid and doesn't mind joining someone smarter then them, specially if they get to kill things, and get rid of the tadpole.

Having four grumpy companions do to actions = sorry my friend they are already grumpy. so whats different?

Lloth sworn = You don't hate anyone but surface elves, and other drow. You are superior to every other creature walking Faerun so why should you bother even hating them? They are simply slaves waiting to be collared, playthings waiting to be played with, brief entertainment to oocupy a small portion of your time, and delight you until you find another one to take their place.
Posted By: clavis Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 05:06 PM
Alot of what I see this is my opinion, and there are good arguements and opinions like gray ghosts, is this. I will be using his to counter, and some others are included. Yet overall this is what I see.

That because your not getting an immedaite satisfaction, or reward it's not a viable option. Yes we can add gray's points to counter. Yet again may imo simply want the rewards, and tadpole removed. Yes greed is supposedly evil. From this I gather that many are

A)looking for short term satisfaction, the quick and easy or

B) Remove my tadpole, give me riches, and treasure.

C) again easy path.

You don't want to aid the goblins because they attack you, your evil kill them, by doing so you prove to their boss your not to be trifled with, and will make a good underling (note your lvl 3 your not even near developed enough in your class to do mighty things) killing goblins no problem. Killing farmers, and unarmed people no problem, taking out certain druids again might be no problem. Yet in the long run your a fly that has it's uses. They know this even if you don't, yet you do have potential, and could eventually become a threat to their power. So you kill goblins (they breed like rabbits so always more) prove yourself to the Bosses, who are now willing to aid you if you aid them.

If the goblins simply let you waltz into their camp not knowing you, not knowing if your a threat, a potential and useful ally, then they would be stupid evil. If the Bosses simply helped you not knowing you, not knowing if your a spy for another enemy, or if you can be any use to them they'd be stupid evil. You as is argued by many, and a reason many are still following the good path are an unknown so aiding you for no reward is stupid evil. Why should they their not good they don't pass to coins to beggars, they may very well steal the beggars coin.

You say well I'm not getting a reward from it, and thats stupid evil. Whats the reward for them helping an unknown, nothing that they know of.

You argue - that evil is greedy self centered, and motivated by personal gain. True in large part I applaude you, but your failing to see that guess what, they evil people in the game are the exact same way.
So by your own logic, and arguements they would be stupid evil to do anything for you. Until you prove to them that your useful, and not just more trash they have goblins for that, and goblins breed far faster then the other races. Your not giving them a reward, unless you do something for them.

So you don't want to be stupid evil. I get that it's boring, and not very exciting. Why the hell should the enemies in the game be stupid evil??

Rant over. note this is a view from rp stand point, and not meant to inflame, debase anyone. Please feel free to prove me wrong, or agree up to you.
Posted By: Panda Warlord Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 05:27 PM
On top of that if you actually follow up on Kagha it turns out she's working against the grove on purpose. So the least sympathetic character in that camp is an antagonist if you go with the path of siding with them. Having an "evil" route feels retrograde, if players tend to be unwilling to go down the more ruthless routes in morally grey scenarios you need a REALLY good motivation for taking an evil route. If you make a game without that, with all the information out there about player behaviour, who is to blame for very few people taking that route?

Edit: Also worth noting what the D&D source books tend to say about evil parties. Short version is it is not really made for that.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades


Now I think the best way to fix it would be to have Minthara or someone else meet you REALLY early on and tell you, maybe entice you about the powers you can get. Have her tell you about the true souls, she shows you the power you can get if you use the tadpole, but right now there isn't anything like it. No character storywise would want to help goblins, even an evil one (smart evil one). It's kind of funny when the tiefling "Zevlor" asked me why I was doing this and i was like "uhhh....Bc Larian told me to? Whoops!" In the end, the Evil storyline for Grove vs Goblin needs more rewards and enticing. Why should my character risk dealing with them instead of looking for a healer, especially Halsin who is the best lead. Should I be doing it bc I got to bang the drow lol?

Would love to hear other peoples thoughts on what they think of this, and maybe ways to fix it, that way Larian can add/make some changes to make the evil side satisfying.




You are absolutely right, I have nothing to add. The player has no motivation to help the goblins, or not to get rid of the parasite. This option was found by accident, it should not be so.

If the developers want more players to try the "dark side of the force", then they should give the player food for thought, temptation, more information about the cult of the absolute. Why not make a goblin messenger who searches the wreck site and invites the player to the goblin camp? Why not get a more detailed offer from Minthara, whose only character in the goblin camp should have the brains to figure out what's what?

Playing on the evil side should be fun, like Fable's Lost Chapters. And not Fallout 3 where to be bad means to be stupid idiots who kills everything in its path for some unknown reason (and I would really like to join the Enclave faction)

And the evil side should be variable, it's very cool if you can take the side of ANY antagonist. No "absolute enemies" are imposed on us, only freedom of choice

In The Elder Scrolls, you can play as the murderer of the dark brotherhood, be a thief, do bad things, but for some reason the developers decided that it is impossible to play as a necromancer and this guild is closed .. or in Oblivion, you cannot join the mythical dawn and go through an alternative plot. Why are they enemies, maybe I wanted to help them, hey!

Things like that spoil everything, if this is not the case in Baldurs Gate the game deserves a 10 out of 10
Posted By: Khorvale Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by clavis
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Now, I'm creating this because Larian stated they wanted people to be evil and to test it to make it worth being evil, and having a satisfying story. For this particular discussion I'm gonna focus on the Goblin vs Grove situation, so FULL SPOILERS for that.

I'm gonna start off by saying right off the bat, when you go back to the tieflings and go "im joining the goblins", all my companions disapproved except Astarion, and I mention this because they said we will be getting evil/neutral companions for EA and from the start of being evil the player is punished. If these so called Evil companions disagree with me, then there is a few major issues with the evil storyline, which is what I want to talk about.

Now, from the the player is abducted and had a tadpole inserted into their eye and the companions they meet are adamant about having this removed, and that's fine. But the narrative doesn't really PUSH you towards being evil and neither do these companions. Now the biggest lead you have for this is Halsin, and i would consider him to be on the "good" side, where I should side with the grove to get his help. What incentive is there for me to help the goblins? The game doesn't really do anything to push their agenda and make you want to do. A smart evil character would still help Grove and get Halsins help because they want to figure out what's going on, what the option we have now is stupid evil instead. We are never enticed with anything to go join the Absolute. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to get out of helping the goblins and Minthara kill everyone. There isn't an enticing promise of answers or rewards for going down that path vs. just helping the refugees and finding Halsin to heal you from the tadpole. Right now the only reason you would help is because "fuck all these refugees and druids". Again, stupid evil IMO.

Everything up to that point in the game (being kidnapped by Illithids, all your companions explaining what the tadpoles do, and being concerned with getting healed) reinforces that we should want nothing to do with the Absolute because they violated us and will rid us of our free will if we don't get rid of the parasite. No type of evil character would want to help the goblins because we get nothing. Hell I lost Wyll after that, which is cool, and a good consequence, but that's it. I gained nothing from this it seems like. Now, I will say I'm interested in the story still. I wanna know what happens if I follow this trail, will i see Minthara again, will she be a companion or a returning side character? There is potential but just to see what could happen, but there are no rewards. You don't get any extra powers from it, nothing about healers (the priestess Gut wants to kill me bc I took the "Drow" option with sleep potion and then she goes "oh this will hurt"). I guess it was cool I had sex with her? But I mean at that night 3 of my companions were ready to sleep with me, and I lost 1 companion and gained...nothing.

Now I think the best way to fix it would be to have Minthara or someone else meet you REALLY early on and tell you, maybe entice you about the powers you can get. Have her tell you about the true souls, she shows you the power you can get if you use the tadpole, but right now there isn't anything like it. No character storywise would want to help goblins, even an evil one (smart evil one). It's kind of funny when the tiefling "Zevlor" asked me why I was doing this and i was like "uhhh....Bc Larian told me to? Whoops!" In the end, the Evil storyline for Grove vs Goblin needs more rewards and enticing. Why should my character risk dealing with them instead of looking for a healer, especially Halsin who is the best lead. Should I be doing it bc I got to bang the drow lol?

Would love to hear other peoples thoughts on what they think of this, and maybe ways to fix it, that way Larian can add/make some changes to make the evil side satisfying.


Then what about siding with the cambion?

As for Halsin if he is as he seems to be then he is good, and helping him means you may have just helped a powerful enemy down the line, once your evil ways are known. Aiding Kagha seems the better choice, because she wants the grove locked. Yet if you follow grove free Halsin, he takes over again in the grove, again he appears to be good by him letting in the refugees, so your arming a potential enemy not only by giving him his grove back, but keeping it whole/intact. He's also made friends with the refugees by letting them in, they are another potential enemy or at least spies for Halsin.

If you help the goblins, destroy the grove, kill refugees you've elminated Halsins power base, and followers, and kept his potential allies from becoming stronger, or making more allies. Lowered the chance that he'll be able to come after you if you turn evil, and since you helped the goblins, they can serve as distractions for any bloody Heros that may want to target you, because your evil. Instead they have to focus on the goblin, with Priestess Guts. The Emerald Enclave then has to turn their attention towards the goblins to retaliate and reclaim Halsin's grove, Balders Gate has a large group of better armed, and prepared goblins then the usual masses on their doorstep. Again bigger threat for the moment then you. So 'stupid evil' or is it your playing for the long run, covering your tracks, by keeping everyone focused on other for the moment bigger threats while you go do what you gotta do. Taking out potential threats before they realize your a threat, and making all the other goody goods think it was someone/something else?


Rationalising that you make the default good choices that the game allows you to because of ulterior motives, is a poor substitute for having actual evil choices that are worth it.
I fully agree that the whole Absolute plot-line really needs a lot more promise of reward and exposition for it to make any sort of sense to join up with them. I ended up eradicating the Goblins on my evil play-through because there was next to no incitement to do anything else. I was also sorely disappointed to find that apparently there are no fun things that an evil character can get up to with a Hag, either.
Posted By: Renaire Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 06:15 PM
The way i look at it, allying with goblins doesn't even make much sense for an evil char. What does make sense is removing them (or rather the 3 leaders)
Considering that:
a. You embarked on this journey to remove the parasite. That's ..the name of the main quest. It's what you want. It's what your companions want.. if their dialogue is to be believed. Now, the only real 'promise' of a cure comes from Halsin, who was kidnapped by goblins. And to get Halsin, you need the goblins gone. So as an evil character, a pragmatic one, who wants the parasite gone..why would you choose the goblins over Halsin?
b. If the goblin leaders find out that you want the tadpole removed or that YOU killed the mind flayer, they will attack (as will the 2 humans you encounter early on near the grove, if you tell them you were on the ship). They are a threat to you, so why would you want to let them live?
c. You learn that they have tadpoles of their own. If you know what power these tadpoles can offer, wouldn't you technically as an evil char want your competition removed?
d. The goblin leaders offer you nothing, as far as i've noticed. No promise of a cure, no promise of riches or power. Maybe i somehow missed this conversation, but in my game the drow (Minthara?) just went 'oh another true soul, come, sister, let us attack the grove!'. Ya ok, but why? Why would i want to be their underling, and potentially be paid in potatoes, if removing them is so much easier?

If there was a way to manipulate the cult leaders, if you could take over this branch & end up with an army of goblins to command AND SO make your path forward basically easier, i'd understand the appeal. But as it is rn, killing them is the only logical option.
Originally Posted by Renaire
The way i look at it, allying with goblins doesn't even make much sense for an evil char. What does make sense is removing them (or rather the 3 leaders)
Considering that:
a. You embarked on this journey to remove the parasite. That's ..the name of the main quest. It's what you want. It's what your companions want.. if their dialogue is to be believed. Now, the only real 'promise' of a cure comes from Halsin, who was kidnapped by goblins. And to get Halsin, you need the goblins gone. So as an evil character, a pragmatic one, who wants the parasite gone..why would you choose the goblins over Halsin?
b. If the goblin leaders find out that you want the tadpole removed or that YOU killed the mind flayer, they will attack (as will the 2 humans you encounter early on near the grove, if you tell them you were on the ship). They are a threat to you, so why would you want to let them live?
c. You learn that they have tadpoles of their own. If you know what power these tadpoles can offer, wouldn't you technically as an evil char want your competition removed?
d. The goblin leaders offer you nothing, as far as i've noticed. No promise of a cure, no promise of riches or power. Maybe i somehow missed this conversation, but in my game the drow (Minthara?) just went 'oh another true soul, come, sister, let us attack the grove!'. Ya ok, but why? Why would i want to be their underling, and potentially be paid in potatoes, if removing them is so much easier?

If there was a way to manipulate the cult leaders, if you could take over this branch & end up with an army of goblins to command AND SO make your path forward basically easier, i'd understand the appeal. But as it is rn, killing them is the only logical option.


All of this. If you do end up getting to Minthara and not already started butchering them, she doesn't offer anything. Hell the only way I knew allying with her is a thing bc I saw on the internet you can. How is a person who isn't looking supposed to know? You don't. The game doesn't tell you in anyway, instead you're made to fight them with your companions and other npcs you meet telling you how evil they are. The only way I didn't get in a fight is I played drow and the gatekeeper was like "drow coming through let em go". No dialogue persuasion or anything. I was gearing up for a fight.

But in the end I got nothing. A companion left me (rightfully so, I like this part) but in the end I got nothing at all. No power, no loot from the drow, and she just peaces out. I guess I became a homicidal maniac for the drow booty.
Posted By: Khorvale Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 06:33 PM
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
I noticed that after the initial fight at the entrance of the Grove astarion suggests to immediately leave because most likely more goblins will come. Issue with this is if you do so you will not know about the auntie Ethel option, nor would you know about priestess gut. Do you even know halsin is a healer at that point? And finally if you do follow astarion advice why would you then go into a full camp of goblins considering you're trying to avoid goblins in the first place. And then what, the only options left are the gith and Raphael which you can't do in ea. You have a map full of places that you cannot explore cause goblins!


To be fair, if this was the full game it might be perfectly reasonable to just say "fuck this" and head for the creché so just because it doesn't make sense in EA doesn't mean it couldn't make sense in the larger scope of the finished game

Originally Posted by UnderworldHades

All of this. If you do end up getting to Minthara and not already started butchering them, she doesn't offer anything. Hell the only way I knew allying with her is a thing bc I saw on the internet you can. How is a person who isn't looking supposed to know? You don't. The game doesn't tell you in anyway, instead you're made to fight them with your companions and other npcs you meet telling you how evil they are. The only way I didn't get in a fight is I played drow and the gatekeeper was like "drow coming through let em go". No dialogue persuasion or anything. I was gearing up for a fight.

But in the end I got nothing. A companion left me (rightfully so, I like this part) but in the end I got nothing at all. No power, no loot from the drow, and she just peaces out. I guess I became a homicidal maniac for the drow booty.


I snuck into the goblin camp and kinda just got tolerated there (I guess they take all kinds though I'm pretty sure I was the only Dwarf there. Which was commented on once or twice which was a nice touch), and when I met up with Minthara she immediately recognizes me as a True Soul. I can then *volunteer* to go torture a guy to find out where the Grove is, or just offer to tell her and then get told to go kill them. No promises of anything at all so to me it seemed 100% "evil for the sake it". Figured the loot would be better in Goblin camp so I killed them all, not just the men but the women and children too (yeah, felt a bit bad about murdering those Goblin kids to be honest) and the loot was definitely worth it laugh
Posted By: clavis Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by Renaire
The way i look at it, allying with goblins doesn't even make much sense for an evil char. What does make sense is removing them (or rather the 3 leaders)
Considering that:
a. You embarked on this journey to remove the parasite. That's ..the name of the main quest. It's what you want. It's what your companions want.. if their dialogue is to be believed. Now, the only real 'promise' of a cure comes from Halsin, who was kidnapped by goblins. And to get Halsin, you need the goblins gone. So as an evil character, a pragmatic one, who wants the parasite gone..why would you choose the goblins over Halsin?
b. If the goblin leaders find out that you want the tadpole removed or that YOU killed the mind flayer, they will attack (as will the 2 humans you encounter early on near the grove, if you tell them you were on the ship). They are a threat to you, so why would you want to let them live?
c. You learn that they have tadpoles of their own. If you know what power these tadpoles can offer, wouldn't you technically as an evil char want your competition removed?
d. The goblin leaders offer you nothing, as far as i've noticed. No promise of a cure, no promise of riches or power. Maybe i somehow missed this conversation, but in my game the drow (Minthara?) just went 'oh another true soul, come, sister, let us attack the grove!'. Ya ok, but why? Why would i want to be their underling, and potentially be paid in potatoes, if removing them is so much easier?

If there was a way to manipulate the cult leaders, if you could take over this branch & end up with an army of goblins to command AND SO make your path forward basically easier, i'd understand the appeal. But as it is rn, killing them is the only logical option.


Ya'll playing neutral characters. Your letting reward decide what to do, not swayed either way by good or evil. So stop kidding yourself.

A: Halsin is kidnapped by goblins, meaning he may not be very powerful. This combined with fact you, yourself can kill the goblins would lead your character to believe he's not all that. So he's not sure thing. After all if he was this powerful why'd he let himself get caught in the first place? As an evil character why would you help someone to weak to defend themselves against goblins, you need someone strong enough powerful enough to remove this thing from your head, not be captured by goblins. If he is that powerful, then that means the goblins are even stronger, or their leaders are. So they're more likely to be able to help you. Plus fact he is a goody two shoes, who will help other goody two shoes, including heros that are annoying, and a threat. Plus can't be manipulated, or controlled do to their boring moral code. Unless you get stronger! Since your not changing yet.... and can use new ability.. hmmm.

B: You don't know this when you go to ask them for help, why are you telling them this, better to find out their plans first. (again in character) You are evil everyone is either 1. fodder 2. potential slave 3. useful ally to be later discarded. 4. A threat to your power 5. able to help you grow more powerful then be discarded. in the end as an evil person when they are no longer a use they're discarded. Dscarded more then likely killed, tortured, maimed, most of it for fun, first one so they don't try to usurp your power.

C. Why haven't they changed into mindflayers? Why haven't you showed any symptoms? Why can you use the tadpole, to do things and not change? (A new source of power for you to exploit? These people know lets use them, help them, get in good with them, learn their ways and then discard them.)

D. They offer you a way to utilize a new power per C. by fully understanding what is going on. Your so bent on getting rid of this tadpole (a thing a good person would want to do, or one who is fanatically against mind flayers.) why if it's not turning you into a mindflayer, then it's a source of power. A source these leaders seem to understand, so you can use them to find out about it. Then of course they have to go once they are no longer useful.

Your supposed to be evil, why are you looking at short term all the time? Why do you want the enemy to be stupid evil? Does a wizard/necromancer want to turn into a Lich for the extra power simply find what they need. No they have to work for it. So by fact it's not an immediate reward why would they bother? They're evil it will grant them power, but they have to work for it. It's a long road, which they have to follow to it's end. A thing your denying your characters because your interested in right now, give me, give me, give me. I must have things now, it must all be mine, right now.

stupid evil = allowing an unknow to waltz into your camp, give them rewards before they prove themselves, and their uses to you. Allow them free run of the camp, without knowing their intentions? Allowing them to live when they are going against what you want. (telling them you killed the mindflayer, and want tadpole gone.)
Posted By: IdPreferNotTo Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 07:47 PM
The only angles to align with the mind flayers/absolute I can think of are:

1)Delusional PC, that believe the parasite lunching on his/her brain and the mindflayers have his/her best interests at heart

or

2)Suicide cultist. Selfless/self-erasing PC that assert the renewal of the mind flayer empire as the absolute truth of his/her desire. To such a PC slavery to the mind flayers, and ultimately, death by ceremorphosis, functions as a goal in itself that transcends any personal gain, self-preservation and other "selfish" motives.

I'm not really interested in either RP option.
Posted By: Renaire Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 07:47 PM
a. You need Halsin not because he's a poweful fighter, with the ability to slay all, you need him because you want a good healer. Why would you care about his proficiency in a fight? You aren't looking to recruit him as a merc, you want him to heal you.
And i don't understand why you assume 'goody thow shoes' can't be manipulated. Plenty of good peeps get manipulated, if anything manipulating a good person would be easier since they're more likely to believe the shit you say.

b. But when you ask them for help, they don't help! They offer you absolutely nothing usefull -> making them basically useless to you. SO by your logic, you wouldn't want to ally with them, you'd want to kill/ torture/ maim the goblin leaders.

c. But how do you know that they know? From all the convos you have with them they don't give you any rational explanation. No new info. Just a bunch of 'this is the will of the Absolute, i was chosen, blah blah'

d. You don't need to be good to want to get rid of the tadpole. You can be evil and see this tadpole as an inconvenience you want removed at all cost. But that's not the point. When you talk to them and join their side, they don't offer you a way to master your power, unless, again, i missed that convo.

They give you no explanation, no information, no new skill, no new powers. They give you nothing. As an evil char.. why would you waste your time on something that doesn't benefit you at all?
Unless of course you are evil for the sake of evil.
Posted By: clavis Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by IdPreferNotTo
The only angles to align with the mind flayers/absolute I can think of are:

1)Delusional PC, that believe the parasite lunching on his/her brain and the mindflayers have his/her best interests at heart

or

2)Suicide cultist. Selfless/self-erasing PC that assert the renewal of the mind flayer empire as the absolute truth of his/her desire. To such a PC slavery to the mind flayers, and ultimately, death by ceremorphosis, functions as a goal in itself that transcends any personal gain, self-preservation and other "selfish" motives.

I'm not really interested in either RP option.

i like this one. and makes more sense since your looking at it not through good vs evil, reward vs. no reward but another deeper issue.

Originally Posted by Renaire

a. You need Halsin not because he's a poweful fighter, with the ability to slay all, you need him because you want a good healer. Why would you care about his proficiency in a fight? You aren't looking to recruit him as a merc, you want him to heal you.
And i don't understand why you assume 'goody thow shoes' can't be manipulated. Plenty of good peeps get manipulated, if anything manipulating a good person would be easier since they're more likely to believe the shit you say.

b. But when you ask them for help, they don't help! They offer you absolutely nothing usefull -> making them basically useless to you. SO by your logic, you wouldn't want to ally with them, you'd want to kill/ torture/ maim the goblin leaders.

c. But how do you know that they know? From all the convos you have with them they don't give you any rational explanation. No new info. Just a bunch of 'this is the will of the Absolute, i was chosen, blah blah'

d. You don't need to be good to want to get rid of the tadpole. You can be evil and see this tadpole as an inconvenience you want removed at all cost. But that's not the point. When you talk to them and join their side, they don't offer you a way to master your power, unless, again, i missed that convo.

They give you no explanation, no information, no new skill, no new powers. They give you nothing. As an evil char.. why would you waste your time on something that doesn't benefit you at all?
Unless of course you are evil for the sake of evil.



A. Looking at what you've seen druids do. A fairly common druid shape shifted into a bear, if you killed Kadga you'd see her as well shape shift, fought Nettie shapeshift. All these forms are from druids that can't help you, because their not strong enough. You yourself (believe, may believe) that you can take out some pesky goblins, you just did right before entering the grove, and did so easily. your character (may know powerful enough to remove the tadpole) druids are a force of a nature even those focused on healing are nasty in a fight. If Halsin is a strong enough Druid to remove this tadpole he should also be able to protect himself from simple things like goblins, or escape. He didn't so one can draw the conclusion he isn't really all that powerful. That he got captured alone shows he's not stronger then the goblins, and who leads the goblins, the strongest. Talking with certain Npc lets you know information that comes into play into another conclussion (if you didn't get this, or any of the others then it wouldn't come into play from characters stand point.) Goody two shoes can be manipulated but again if he is strong enough to remove this tadpole, he may very well be smart enough to avoid your manipulation (can be enhanced if you fail/failed to persuade Kadga and/or nettie. If your not able to then you can draw a conclusion that he is smarter and less likely to be manipulated by you), or figure out your manipulating him at the wrong time. Manipulating people isn't a given you don't want them to figure it out at the wrong time, especially those that are powerful, and you yourself haven't come into your power yet. It's the before stated Risk to Reward. The risk is very high that manipulation will be found out, by Halsin in this case, and if you put him back in his grove (a thing that enhances druids powers) then you've not only given him his seat of power back, but followers, lost the chance to remove a powerful enemy before they suspected you, gave Heros in the location a safe harbor to work out of. So manipulating Halsin though rewards you with removal or may reward you with removal of tadpole. has just given power to your enemies Which do o moral code good people are, especially Heros, and Halsin is probably one of those types to hunt evil.

B. If they prove useless to you, then as an evil character they are useless, but they have to prove it. Again this goes to you having to prove to them as well. They are evil you have to prove to them your useful. So you have to do what they want you to, again they are evil. Halsin helps you because you rescue him, proving to him (wether or not it's true your useful, and good). This is the basic thing in quests, proof. If you fail at a quest you've proven you can't do it, and don't get a reward. If you complete the quest you get the reward. So for Halsin you got a quest to rescue him, you complete it he heals you or attempts to. If you don't rescue him he doesn't help. Much like if you don't do what the leaders want they don't help.

C. You don't straight up, you do know (if you get the conversation), they are powerful, and have a powerful healer. Again the captured Halsin, are making lives miserable to those behind a fortification enough that the druids are preparing a ritual to protect them. Meaning the druids are afraid of this group even with their magic, and walls. In order for new things to open up you have to follow them to completion. If you don't follow to completion no matter if it's good or evil you won't know. Thats why theres no new info. Halsins quest started back at the Grove when you learned of him. If you didn't follow it then there would be no new info. You asked nettie for help, she didn't help she tried to kill you. again had to follow to completion on Netties quests to find that out, and escape.

D. Your right you don't need to be good to do that, and can see it that way good or evil. It may be a missed conversation, but again you won't know until you follow it to completion. It seems that alot of people are not following these quests to completion or are just rushing through without exploring. Then coming here to bemoan this and that imo. I'm merely offering one view, not all my views, that could be why you join goblins, and not Halsin. IMO it seems people expect to be welcomed like they were in the grove by evil people when they show up, or to not follow the goblins path because it's longer. Instead choosing the quick and easy path which is neutral since your siding with good (meaning you have no real feelings towards good and evil) vs. chosing evil, which may bring about more power for your character, and rid you of someone that will pose a threat in the future. (being halsin, Harpers, and other good people that stroll by Halsin who will heal them, feed them, maybe even supply them since there is a trader in the grove.)

As an evil character why would you help good? By helping Halsin you give everyone that is good and comes by (much like the refugees) a place to stock up, heal, plan, safety, security. Since you are evil that includes those coming after you, or will want to come after you. Unless you plan on leaving and never returning to this part of the country. Which may very well happen, yet anyone in the future coming through here to hunt you down can stop by the grove. Find out you'd been there where you were headed (or direction) stock up, heal up, and be on there way unmolested by the goblins. Region turns stable making it harder for evil to act including you! Because good guys stick together, bad guys don't for very long.

If you find the leaders after completing their quests to be useless, you may just leave and go look for the creche. In that scenerio you can always come back, maybe take over, start a new cult, whatever. yet there won't be for a while a druid grove to stock up heros, offer shelter to refugees, a powerful healer to heal good heros, etc. Even heros coming through are going to have to contend with goblins, and maybe even the leaders. If the heros win good, if the leaders wins good. How is that good because either way a potential rival is done away with, and one or the other is weakened. Hero wins goblins scatter you can manipulate the goblins into working for you, slowly building up your own goblin army, in a region that has been unstable. Region still unstable easier to work in if thats your desire. hero continues to work in region or believes threat gone.

Again all this is just theory, ways of viewing it that matches one of my characters. Each is thought out from what that character knows, and has found out. Are they the way for your character to go up to you.
Posted By: Renaire Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by clavis

A. Looking at what you've seen druids do. A fairly common druid shape shifted into a bear, if you killed Kadga you'd see her as well shape shift, fought Nettie shapeshift. All these forms are from druids that can't help you, because their not strong enough. .....


Not going to quote all the text, but lol, here we go:

a. Well, again, healing and fighting are diff things, but surely you don't expect Halsin to single-handedly kill every goblin in the temple? If we are judging Minthara&co. by the same criterion, how come they're so weak that they can't succesfully attack the grove. EVEN with superior numbers. The way the battle plays out if you side with them is that YOU, the player char, get rid of everyone in the grove. Minthara and her gang contribute almost nothing ...which may be a gameplay thing more than anything else, (or maybe i was that lucky) but still... Not exactly an inspiring display of power, is it?

And Alright.. lets roll with the 'Halsin is a weakling'. Would it not be more lucrative to keep him around as opposed to keeping Minthara and co. around? You know, to ensure that your opponent/rival (in your example Halsin) is easier to eliminate if the need ever arises? Why keep the 3 goblin leader around if they are overall a bigger threat to you?
Would it not be easier to use Halsin, 'cash in' the favour?.. have him serve u?.. since you saved him and all?

b. They have to prove they're useful. OK, but why would you waste time and effort, if you DON'T KNOW if they're going to be useful at all? At that point you're operating under the assumprion that surely if i help them they help me. But why would they help you in return? Why would they not, being the evil guys, use you and then throw you away?
Again, since Halsin is a 'good guy' you can trust that he at least, is going to hold his end of the deal. Which means you have higher chances of getting what YOU want.

c. If you don't want Halsin's help or don't want to help him - fine. You know what you can do? Kill Minthara and talk to her corpse. She'll tell you where to go next. She'll point you to moonrise tower or whatever the name.

d. Evil has to be appealing, otherwise nobody would choose the evil path. If i have to do the same amount of work, or arguably MORE work, to be evil, then why would i? Why would anybody?
Unless as stated above they're 'delusional or suicide cultists'

Posted By: Moirnelithe Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by Renaire


c. If you don't want Halsin's help or don't want to help him - fine. You know what you can do? Kill Minthara and talk to her corpse. She'll tell you where to go next. She'll point you to moonrise tower or whatever the name.

Hmm. The game actually explicitly tells you that corpses won't talk to their killers. It's even in the hints on the loading screens. So I never bothered.
Posted By: Renaire Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Originally Posted by Renaire


c. If you don't want Halsin's help or don't want to help him - fine. You know what you can do? Kill Minthara and talk to her corpse. She'll tell you where to go next. She'll point you to moonrise tower or whatever the name.

Hmm. The game actually explicitly tells you that corpses won't talk to their killers. It's even in the hints on the loading screens. So I never bothered.

They won't talk to your main char, but they talk to your companions just fine.
Posted By: clavis Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by Renaire

Originally Posted by clavis

A. Looking at what you've seen druids do. A fairly common druid shape shifted into a bear, if you killed Kadga you'd see her as well shape shift, fought Nettie shapeshift. All these forms are from druids that can't help you, because their not strong enough. .....


Not going to quote all the text, but lol, here we go:

a. Well, again, healing and fighting are diff things, but surely you don't expect Halsin to single-handedly kill every goblin in the temple? If we are judging Minthara&co. by the same criterion, how come they're so weak that they can't succesfully attack the grove. EVEN with superior numbers. The way the battle plays out if you side with them is that YOU, the player char, get rid of everyone in the grove. Minthara and her gang contribute almost nothing ...which may be a gameplay thing more than anything else, (or maybe i was that lucky) but still... Not exactly an inspiring display of power, is it?

And Alright.. lets roll with the 'Halsin is a weakling'. Would it not be more lucrative to keep him around as opposed to keeping Minthara and co. around? You know, to ensure that your opponent/rival (in your example Halsin) is easier to eliminate if the need ever arises? Why keep the 3 goblin leader around if they are overall a bigger threat to you?
Would it not be easier to use Halsin, 'cash in' the favour?.. have him serve u?.. since you saved him and all?

b. They have to prove they're useful. OK, but why would you waste time and effort, if you DON'T KNOW if they're going to be useful at all? At that point you're operating under the assumprion that surely if i help them they help me. But why would they help you in return? Why would they not, being the evil guys, use you and then throw you away?
Again, since Halsin is a 'good guy' you can trust that he at least, is going to hold his end of the deal. Which means you have higher chances of getting what YOU want.

c. If you don't want Halsin's help or don't want to help him - fine. You know what you can do? Kill Minthara and talk to her corpse. She'll tell you where to go next. She'll point you to moonrise tower or whatever the name.

d. Evil has to be appealing, otherwise nobody would choose the evil path. If i have to do the same amount of work, or arguably MORE work, to be evil, then why would i? Why would anybody?
Unless as stated above they're 'delusional or suicide cultists'



thanks I was thinking the same thing lol

A. No but he should been able to get away, by some reasoning. After all the 3 at the gate did, and they're not especially powerful seeming. So someone more powerful in theory be able to do so. For instance bears run faster then humans so goblin bowling. Evil leaders don't show up for all the fights, one they are softening up the grove, 2 the goblins were a hunting party and came across the Adventurers and Halsin so again leaders wouldn't be with them. As to assualt on the grove as my character isn't there (character I'm using for this view) she wouldn't know. Though if this happened they would again have proven useless leading her to react to their uselessness in whatever way she deems necassary. Being drow it will probably be very creative, and very painful. Yet one objective was served a longer objective. Keeping a region destabilized for easier Drow raids, or for you to take over. 2. deny enemy fortifications, and increase in power. 3. the joy of hearing innocents scream. 4. Knowledge that I need to seek elsewhere to remove/learn about this tadpole. As you see like in real life she changes her views, and plans as more information is provided. Which is what your character would do. Though many of the others have dropped out of the discussion, still it's showing alternate ways that could be written in, and improved.

1. The problem with Halsin isn't just him, it's the stability of the region he would give. The fortified druid grove, the access to trader, and other things that he would be virtue of being alive give to the forces of good. With Min and Co. alive good would have to fight for that stability, which would take time, and fight for that foothold. Drawing forces from other places, drawing resources from strong holds, which makes them easier to get at since the resources are no longer behind walls, and as heavily guarded.

2. Since Min and & Co are evil they are more inclined to share similair beliefs for example raiding farms, or monastaries, or druid groves. Hunting down heros, making life miserable for people in general. Which can aid you if you plan on operating in this area. Which draws more attention large forces of goblins rampaging around the country side, or you going about your business? If they showed they are weak then keeping them around and subjegating them later on is a valid option. If they showed how weak they were by letting you do all the heavy lifting. All the better you now have proof that they are not currently a threat. Make an example out of one if need be, keep the others cowed, and destabilizing the area. Again if it's where your basing your operations. If not simply leave, they'll still be distractions, still drawing attention away from you. Which is always a good thing.

B. All ths can be said about Halsin as well, it's the crux of it all. The uggg are they useful, or are they not. You don't know if they are going to be, and not even sure if Halsin will be. yet in the long run as per 2 Min and goblin forces are useful simply by existing then Halsin is. The next part is another one of those uggg are they going to play me, or not. Yet there is the tadpole, which like with your companions forms a bond perhaps. A way to get your foot in the door, futher things you can run into will affect the view, or plan. For instance most of my views are just in Druids Grove since I'm only using one character to keep the view focused. Or I would be typing pages. The fact you do know Halsin is a good guy is a strong point in favor of going with him. Yet it weakens if your going to use this area for BoO do to previously mentioned statements. Again something to take into consideration, is how long one is planning on staying there.

C. It's always an option though think you killing them will adversely affect the difficulty of rolls that would be forthcoming. Could just leave them all to their own devices.or again side with halsin. Depending again on your character. One of mine who's evil may end up siding with Halsin not for (rewards, etc) just because he's not wholly evil, more neutral and just wants the damn bug out of his head. Also he dislikes goblins and they are kos for him, generally he just dislikes everyone. Even the fools he's traveling with, but they may know something he doesn't. there are other reasons but not going into detail.

D. Or they are planning for the long road. Maybe a return to this part of the area, and they want it to be destabilized. maybe they are working to simply create chaos and goblins do that very well. This part is moving onto the whole discussion of lawful, neutral, or chaotic evil. Which is a more narrowed view.

True it has to be tempting to play evil, but the same goes for good. If everyone is simply choosing the good path then there won't be feed back for all aspects of the evil path. If everyone is focused simply on rewards, and ease of path. Then the longer ones won't get feedback. Evil is often times not rewarded by other evil people. It is in games a reward to break out of the normal path, to go 'crazy' and do things differently. To try and be that slimey, sleezeball noone wants, and stick it to the face of good. or to be that murder hobo, or delussional physchopath, or whatever. That in and of itself can be rewarding. Not having to worry about the moral issues, simply (though I admit sadly) being evil for the sake of evil. With just your and mine conversation it's givin a brief peak in somethings that can be added to the game. Then further discussed, on how to go about it. Rewards and immedaite gratifications are self evident in my opinion. Larian should already know this, yet what are different ways of going about it in adding more things. maybe a created stronghold for the pc, or letting them take over for Min, or letting them use the grove as a BoA and tying the grove into the camp function, or the goblin base into the camp function, etc. having a hero show up, and running into the players etc. Something besides immediate reward on quest completion. Which is why I tend to play the devils advocate.
Posted By: clavis Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 09:59 PM
sorry for my walls of text you all. just hard to say so much in so few words, and not have assumptions tossed around like candy at a parade.
Originally Posted by Renaire
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Originally Posted by Renaire


c. If you don't want Halsin's help or don't want to help him - fine. You know what you can do? Kill Minthara and talk to her corpse. She'll tell you where to go next. She'll point you to moonrise tower or whatever the name.

Hmm. The game actually explicitly tells you that corpses won't talk to their killers. It's even in the hints on the loading screens. So I never bothered.

They won't talk to your main char, but they talk to your companions just fine.


That didnt work for me. Might be bugged for me then? That's odd.
Posted By: clavis Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 10:01 PM
also even if it doesn't change anything. I'm just glad for intellectual debate. lol
Posted By: Moirnelithe Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by clavis
also even if it doesn't change anything. I'm just glad for intellectual debate. lol

The problem is your head canon is at this point not supported by feedback in the game, That keeps it just that, your head canon. It doesn't fit mine smirk
Posted By: Renaire Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 10:18 PM
Originally Posted by clavis


True it has to be tempting to play evil, but the same goes for good. If everyone is simply choosing the good path then there won't be feed back for all aspects of the evil path. If everyone is focused simply on rewards, and ease of path. Then the longer ones won't get feedback. Evil is often times not rewarded by other evil people. It is in games a reward to break out of the normal path, to go 'crazy' and do things differently. To try and be that slimey, sleezeball noone wants, and stick it to the face of good. or to be that murder hobo, or delussional physchopath, or whatever. That in and of itself can be rewarding. Not having to worry about the moral issues, simply (though I admit sadly) being evil for the sake of evil. With just your and mine conversation it's givin a brief peak in somethings that can be added to the game. Then further discussed, on how to go about it. Rewards and immedaite gratifications are self evident in my opinion. Larian should already know this, yet what are different ways of going about it in adding more things. maybe a created stronghold for the pc, or letting them take over for Min, or letting them use the grove as a BoA and tying the grove into the camp function, or the goblin base into the camp function, etc. having a hero show up, and running into the players etc. Something besides immediate reward on quest completion. Which is why I tend to play the devils advocate.


Very well, then let us look at it this way: The game already allows you to be a murder hobo. It's a viable route, if it fits your character's motivation then by all means kill everyone.
The game also allows you to side with the gobblins, great if your character has the motivations you listed previously.

But then what about ..the selfish self-serving evil type? The game doesn't quite offer you an alternative here, since the best way to go about it is still to side with Halsin or at the very least kill Minthara - things that a 'good' character will also have to do. So what distinguishes your evil char from your good one?

Is there any dialogue that lets your character tell everyone that 'i only did it because it was the fastest way to accomplish my goal'. I think you get something like that with Shadowheart at the camp party, but she DOESN'T EVEN BELIEVE YOU when you say it, so...idk.
Posted By: Renaire Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Originally Posted by Renaire
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Originally Posted by Renaire


c. If you don't want Halsin's help or don't want to help him - fine. You know what you can do? Kill Minthara and talk to her corpse. She'll tell you where to go next. She'll point you to moonrise tower or whatever the name.

Hmm. The game actually explicitly tells you that corpses won't talk to their killers. It's even in the hints on the loading screens. So I never bothered.

They won't talk to your main char, but they talk to your companions just fine.


That didnt work for me. Might be bugged for me then? That's odd.

Oh well, did you previously talk to the corpse? I know that if i use 'talk to corpse' once i can't retry with a different char.
But i know for sure that i talked to Minthara and Spike after killing them.
Posted By: Hachina Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 10:21 PM
Yeah, Being Evil always was hard in D&D game; the only C-RPG that allowed for interesting evil was Tyranny, which was exceptonnal at that; In BG3, I have yet to see a good reason to be evil except the usual madman, or greedy soldier who would kill anything for gold/bloodlust. We need more smart, political evil like in Tyranny, that allow the player to seize additional power and influence by performing bad deeds. This can comes in many way, including gold, trinkets, but also alternate quest lines. For example, by being evil, you could be offered a easy solution, a privilege, for a latter quest. Or a house with bodyguard and your voice in the druid council. Just an example.
@Renaire I have, i know you get another skill of "reapply" or something, but the ability itself wouldn't do anything with a companion, that's why im assuming its a bug. I couldn't even click on the body lol
Posted By: Renaire Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 10:39 PM
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
@Renaire I have, i know you get another skill of "reapply" or something, but the ability itself wouldn't do anything with a companion, that's why im assuming its a bug. I couldn't even click on the body lol

No no, don't try to reapply. You only get one chance to talk to a corpse 'that refuse to talk to its murderer'. If you already got the 'it wont talk to you' then you can't retry after with a comp. It won't be selectable. I had to reload and make sure that my comp was the first one to talk to the corpse.

But if that didn't work for you, then yeah, idk, might be a bug.
Posted By: clavis Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Originally Posted by clavis
also even if it doesn't change anything. I'm just glad for intellectual debate. lol

The problem is your head canon is at this point not supported by feedback in the game, That keeps it just that, your head canon. It doesn't fit mine smirk

Lol, it was never meant to. It did succeed in what it was meant for though.

Getting others to tell specifics that they are looking for, why this isn't working, what they want it to do, what they are thinking at one point, and why. What ideas, or story bits can be added to the game to make playing evil be worth it. for instance the hag wasn't brought up as a viable option until deep into a discussion. The fact that Min and goblins didn't help you in the grove. That the Leaders didn't much do anything at all. That finding out certain things about the Absolute is being missed. plus more that slowly came out over the discussion.

All this if read supplies better feedback then. Evil side is stupid, because I don't get a reward. Also it lets players know that they are indeed missing things that can help them better understand, whats going on. Who is who, and what is what. Even if they don't read my blocks of text. The smaller replies have it in them.
Originally Posted by Renaire
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
@Renaire I have, i know you get another skill of "reapply" or something, but the ability itself wouldn't do anything with a companion, that's why im assuming its a bug. I couldn't even click on the body lol

No no, don't try to reapply. You only get one chance to talk to a corpse 'that refuse to talk to its murderer'. If you already got the 'it wont talk to you' then you can't retry after with a comp. It won't be selectable. I had to reload and make sure that my comp was the first one to talk to the corpse.

But if that didn't work for you, then yeah, idk, might be a bug.


Oh yeah, i didnt reload, just retried it with the companion, that might be it. Whoops!
Posted By: JDCrenton Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 14/10/20 11:35 PM
Joneleth Irenicus is now a MurderHobo.
I also just realized something, if you side with the goblins, you lose out on most of the traders if not all? Where am i supposed to go sell.

The Goblin camp is hostile bc Minthara says "oh u were supposed to die so don't go back", and ofc...all the traders in the Grove are also dead. Lol.
Posted By: Renaire Re: Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side - 15/10/20 12:29 AM
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
I also just realized something, if you side with the goblins, you lose out on most of the traders if not all? Where am i supposed to go sell.

The Goblin camp is hostile bc Minthara says "oh u were supposed to die so don't go back", and ofc...all the traders in the Grove are also dead. Lol.

There's ..a place near the burning village. Some outpost with a waypoint, i forgot how it's called (Zentharian smth?), but there's a trader there. It's connected to the Iron flask / Missing shipment mission.
Oh, I have not been there yet. Went to spiders first to Underdark...then saw the crappy 3 action per turn Minotaur fight. its been a real amazing night in the Underdark lol.
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