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Posted By: FrostyFardragon Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 09:59 AM
Shove is currently very overpowered, I find I'm winning more fights by shoving enemies into pits/the water than by frying them with spells or prodding them with pointy bits of metal.

It should be an action rather than a bonus action.
Posted By: Aurgelmir Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 10:28 AM
The more I play the more I feel most of the "bonus actions" that are actions in 5e is a mistake.
I love to be able to do it, and it's very fun, but it also takes away from some choices in the game.

The Fighter Battle Master get's the pushing attack, but can then also shove a second enemy off the cliff?
Everyone basically get's "Repelling Blast" on their attacks in melee, granted their strength is high enough.

It adds a lot of dynamics to the game, and I find it fun to play, it speeds up the game... but ultimately it takes away some of the choices you have to weigh. (Not to mention gutting Rogues Cunning Actions)
Posted By: FrostyFardragon Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 10:36 AM
It's nice to have it - it gets round the Strength is a rubbish stat issue that 5e has - but it should be instead of attacking, not in addition to!
Posted By: Mythago Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 10:40 AM
Yes. Jump and Shove as bonus actions might be fun things to do in combat. But how much fun is it to level up and gain an ability that does the same thing as a bonus action everyone already has?

As a funny side-note, Shove does not trigger hostility the same way that stealing does. You can, for example, keep pushing the druid's holy idol all the way to the goblin camp if you feel like it, and nobody objects. Well, the goblins might when they see you approaching.
Posted By: JDCrenton Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 10:47 AM
A lot of actions being bonus actions. Yet another thing that creates redundancy issues with the class system and murders party synergy.
Posted By: FrostyFardragon Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 10:49 AM
I'm not worried about jump. being able to disengage as a bonus action is not inherently overpowered - it only steps on the PnP rogue's toes. The extra bonus action the thief gets more than makes up for that. Shame about the Arcane Trickster...
Posted By: Quent Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 11:09 AM
Originally Posted by FrostyFardragon
It's nice to have it - it gets round the Strength is a rubbish stat issue that 5e has - but it should be instead of attacking, not in addition to!



5e has an issue with Strength being a rubbish stat? Since when? Like so many basic physical things run off of strength in 5e, from jump distances to encumbrance to attacking to overrunning to grappling to resisting grapples and overruns. (albeit overruns are an optional rule). Like dump strength too low, good luck taking basic travelling gear with you.

But I do agree that shove should be an action.
Posted By: Nyanko Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 11:12 AM
I never use shove personally cause the combat is already easy and shove makes it too easy. So if it's an action, might be more balanced, I agree.
Posted By: Pupito Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 11:13 AM
Agreed, make it an action for me to Sparta kick people off of cliffs.
Posted By: Sunfly Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 11:31 AM
I don't know if it really makes sense to call shove op when Warlocks get infinite ranged shoves, Battle Masters get a limited but still generous amount of ranged shoves, and shove arrows are a thing. Even if sparing the action isn't hard by itself you still have to at least be in melee range to do the regular bonus action shove.
Posted By: JDCrenton Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 11:34 AM
Originally Posted by Sunfly
I don't know if it really makes sense to call shove op when Warlocks get infinite ranged shoves, Battle Masters get a limited but still generous amount of ranged shoves, and shove arrows are a thing. Even if sparing the action isn't hard by itself you still have to at least be in melee range to do the regular bonus action shove.


The magic hand also shoves, i think even some familiars lol
Posted By: dunehunter Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 11:38 AM
Originally Posted by Sunfly
I don't know if it really makes sense to call shove op when Warlocks get infinite ranged shoves, Battle Masters get a limited but still generous amount of ranged shoves, and shove arrows are a thing. Even if sparing the action isn't hard by itself you still have to at least be in melee range to do the regular bonus action shove.


EB is an action, Battlemaster shove is an action, Shove is a bonus action, see the difference here?
Posted By: Sunfly Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by dunehunter
Originally Posted by Sunfly
I don't know if it really makes sense to call shove op when Warlocks get infinite ranged shoves, Battle Masters get a limited but still generous amount of ranged shoves, and shove arrows are a thing. Even if sparing the action isn't hard by itself you still have to at least be in melee range to do the regular bonus action shove.


EB is an action, Battlemaster shove is an action, Shove is a bonus action, see the difference here?

I do but it hardly seems like a meaningful one. The Battle Mastee still gets their regular bonus damage so it's no different than what they were going to do anyway most likely, warlock should be spamming blasts so that's hardly an action sacrifice, and the same goes for arrows. Shove at least costs an offhand attack if you're a dual wielder.
Posted By: FrostyFardragon Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by Quent
Originally Posted by FrostyFardragon
It's nice to have it - it gets round the Strength is a rubbish stat issue that 5e has - but it should be instead of attacking, not in addition to!



5e has an issue with Strength being a rubbish stat? Since when? Like so many basic physical things run off of strength in 5e, from jump distances to encumbrance to attacking to overrunning to grappling to resisting grapples and overruns. (albeit overruns are an optional rule). Like dump strength too low, good luck taking basic travelling gear with you.

But I do agree that shove should be an action.

Yes, it's generally accepted on 5e forums that DEX is by far better under most circumstances. Most tables simply do not use encumbrance, and jump distance rarely crops up.
Posted By: Nyatalie Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 12:24 PM
Nooo I love to shove people I have won most things like that. maybe hard mode, but I have a 9-5 job and need to do some shoving away to get to the smooching
Posted By: Aurgelmir Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 12:26 PM
Both Repelling Blast and Battle Master's Pushing Attack are chosen abilities though, you pick them at the cost of other abilities.
Battle Master even has to use a resource to push.

Yes Repelling Blast is "free" but warlocks pay for this by having a very small pool of spells, and less spell slots. Eldrich Blast is meant to become very powerful.

I enjoy shove as a bonus action, but I see that it's a bit of an overpowered ability as it stands.

If it was bade an attack action, and you could use it as one of your attacks with multi attack (as you can in 5e) then I think it would still do it's job.
Posted By: Sunfly Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 12:38 PM
Originally Posted by Aurgelmir
Both Repelling Blast and Battle Master's Pushing Attack are chosen abilities though, you pick them at the cost of other abilities.
Battle Master even has to use a resource to push.

Yes Repelling Blast is "free" but warlocks pay for this by having a very small pool of spells, and less spell slots. Eldrich Blast is meant to become very powerful.

I enjoy shove as a bonus action, but I see that it's a bit of an overpowered ability as it stands.

If it was bade an attack action, and you could use it as one of your attacks with multi attack (as you can in 5e) then I think it would still do it's job.


Battle Master might have to make a choice and spend a resource but considering how many battles have powerful shoving spots it's not exactly a hard choice and they were already going to spend that resource on some form of damage steroid anyway. As for Warlock, sure it comes at the price of being a Warlock but it's not like your blasts are bad. Eldritch Blast+Hex is far from bad damage and, like with Battle Master, ranged shoving in and of itself is incredibly strong to the point that you hardly need any other spells besides Hex and Misty Step to be effective.
Posted By: FrostyFardragon Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 01:18 PM
Going to make a strong Thief called Shovey McShoveface who does nothing but shove enemies off ledges.
Posted By: Thrythlind Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 01:25 PM
In 5e, Shove is exactly an Action...it replaces an attack. Which means it can be done as either part of an action or bonus action. A 5th+ Martial could do two of them in a single Attack Action. Having it as a bonus action here does not bother me at all and it is one of the most fun things in the game to be able to shove someone off a cliff.

I tend to warn against being too precise in details when adapting a thing from one medium to another. Something that's fine on the tabletop doesn't work as well in a computer game. There are some things that need to be simplified/streamlined and some that will be made more complex (especially the sort of optional rules that would slow down game play on a tabletop but which the computer can do in the background easier.)
Posted By: Zaxtaj Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 01:36 PM
So, one big thing I learned about having shove as a bonus action which is game-breaking is how invisibility works. Because shove is a bonus action instead of an attack action it does not break invisibility. This means while invisible and hiding you can continuously shove enemies with a 100% chance of success and it never breaks your invisibility or stealth.

It's very easy to abuse and makes many fights trivial, so I would recommend that shove be an action specifically for the purpose of causing invisibility to end.
Posted By: Sunfly Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by Zaxtaj
So, one big thing I learned about having shove as a bonus action which is game-breaking is how invisibility works. Because shove is a bonus action instead of an attack action it does not break invisibility. This means while invisible and hiding you can continuously shove enemies with a 100% chance of success and it never breaks your invisibility or stealth.

It's very easy to abuse and makes many fights trivial, so I would recommend that shove be an action specifically for the purpose of causing invisibility to end.


Wouldn't making shove count as an attack, or simply another thing that breaks invisibility, also fix this?
Posted By: Zaxtaj Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by Sunfly
Originally Posted by Zaxtaj
So, one big thing I learned about having shove as a bonus action which is game-breaking is how invisibility works. Because shove is a bonus action instead of an attack action it does not break invisibility. This means while invisible and hiding you can continuously shove enemies with a 100% chance of success and it never breaks your invisibility or stealth.

It's very easy to abuse and makes many fights trivial, so I would recommend that shove be an action specifically for the purpose of causing invisibility to end.


Wouldn't making shove count as an attack, or simply another thing that breaks invisibility, also fix this?


Well, shove originally was an attack action, so if they restored it to consume an action instead it would fix it. As performing any action would break invisibility as it is currently programmed into the game.
Posted By: Sunfly Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 01:53 PM
Originally Posted by Zaxtaj
Originally Posted by Sunfly
Originally Posted by Zaxtaj
So, one big thing I learned about having shove as a bonus action which is game-breaking is how invisibility works. Because shove is a bonus action instead of an attack action it does not break invisibility. This means while invisible and hiding you can continuously shove enemies with a 100% chance of success and it never breaks your invisibility or stealth.

It's very easy to abuse and makes many fights trivial, so I would recommend that shove be an action specifically for the purpose of causing invisibility to end.


Wouldn't making shove count as an attack, or simply another thing that breaks invisibility, also fix this?


Well, shove originally was an attack action, so if they restored it to consume an action instead it would fix it. As performing any action would break invisibility as it is currently programmed into the game.


It would fix it but it'd also heavily alter the class balance. Ranged shoving attacks are already better than the bonus action shove for the most part. Turning shove into a regular action is just going to make archer builds, battle masters, and warlocks even stronger by comparison to other classes than they already are.
Posted By: FrostyFardragon Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Which means it can be done as either part of an action or bonus action.

Wrong. In 5e something is ether an action or a bonus action. You cannot use an action to carry out a bonus action, you cannot use a bonus action to carry out an action. Only special class abilities allow a character to do something using either.

From 5e Sage Advice:
Quote
Actions and bonus actions aren't interchangeable. In the example, the bard could use Bardic Inspiration or healing word on a turn, but not both.

WotC Sage Advice compendium.



Posted By: Merry Mayhem Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 02:01 PM
Originally Posted by Aurgelmir
The more I play the more I feel most of the "bonus actions" that are actions in 5e is a mistake.
I love to be able to do it, and it's very fun, but it also takes away from some choices in the game.

The Fighter Battle Master get's the pushing attack, but can then also shove a second enemy off the cliff?
Everyone basically get's "Repelling Blast" on their attacks in melee, granted their strength is high enough.

It adds a lot of dynamics to the game, and I find it fun to play, it speeds up the game... but ultimately it takes away some of the choices you have to weigh. (Not to mention gutting Rogues Cunning Actions)


This is my worry, WotC really thought out the action economy in 5e and turning things that are Actions in 5e into Bonus Actions is really screwing up balance.
Posted By: FrostyFardragon Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 02:05 PM
Originally Posted by Sunfly
Originally Posted by Zaxtaj
Originally Posted by Sunfly
Originally Posted by Zaxtaj
So, one big thing I learned about having shove as a bonus action which is game-breaking is how invisibility works. Because shove is a bonus action instead of an attack action it does not break invisibility. This means while invisible and hiding you can continuously shove enemies with a 100% chance of success and it never breaks your invisibility or stealth.

It's very easy to abuse and makes many fights trivial, so I would recommend that shove be an action specifically for the purpose of causing invisibility to end.


Wouldn't making shove count as an attack, or simply another thing that breaks invisibility, also fix this?


Well, shove originally was an attack action, so if they restored it to consume an action instead it would fix it. As performing any action would break invisibility as it is currently programmed into the game.


It would fix it but it'd also heavily alter the class balance. Ranged shoving attacks are already better than the bonus action shove for the most part. Turning shove into a regular action is just going to make archer builds, battle masters, and warlocks even stronger by comparison to other classes than they already are.


Currently, you can do BOTH.

To be able to do Ranged attack shove it requires a significant investment. You either need to be a warlock and select the required invocation, forfeiting, for example, the ability to see in the dark; or you need to be a battlemaster, forfeiting the spells of an EK and other battlemaster manoeuvres (PnP has a lot more than 4!) and use a consumable resource. For that amount of build specialisation it had better be good!
Posted By: Merry Mayhem Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by Nyatalie
Nooo I love to shove people I have won most things like that. maybe hard mode, but I have a 9-5 job and need to do some shoving away to get to the smooching


This is great that you are having fun but my inner DM is thinking from you statement "So we have a bonus action that is so good, it replace many other class abilities or actions? That overpowered."

If something becomes the go to option for every fight / encounter, it needs to be looked at.

what is wrong having shove act like the 5e rules?

Shoving a Creature
Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
The target must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within your reach. Instead of making an attack roll, you make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you.
Posted By: Merry Mayhem Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by Zaxtaj
So, one big thing I learned about having shove as a bonus action which is game-breaking is how invisibility works. Because shove is a bonus action instead of an attack action it does not break invisibility. This means while invisible and hiding you can continuously shove enemies with a 100% chance of success and it never breaks your invisibility or stealth.

It's very easy to abuse and makes many fights trivial, so I would recommend that shove be an action specifically for the purpose of causing invisibility to end.


Actually they need to fix is so bonus actions will break invisibility to have it behave closer to how a human DM would run invisibility.
Posted By: flick40 Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 02:15 PM
I think it should also be strength based, and it may be, but my weak ass wizard should have no chance pushing an enemy trained in combat stances or a larger creature, yet he has done so to great effect. Make it class specific and an action unless again your class allows it i.e. monk.
Posted By: Druid_NPC Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem
This is great that you are having fun but my inner DM is thinking from you statement "So we have a bonus action that is so good, it replace many other class abilities or actions? That overpowered."


Exactly right now a bonus action its pretty often doing more damage then a 2nd lvl spell. And it can also be performed by Mage Hands to make it even worse.
Posted By: Zaxtaj Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by Sunfly
Originally Posted by Zaxtaj
Originally Posted by Sunfly
Originally Posted by Zaxtaj
So, one big thing I learned about having shove as a bonus action which is game-breaking is how invisibility works. Because shove is a bonus action instead of an attack action it does not break invisibility. This means while invisible and hiding you can continuously shove enemies with a 100% chance of success and it never breaks your invisibility or stealth.

It's very easy to abuse and makes many fights trivial, so I would recommend that shove be an action specifically for the purpose of causing invisibility to end.


Wouldn't making shove count as an attack, or simply another thing that breaks invisibility, also fix this?


Well, shove originally was an attack action, so if they restored it to consume an action instead it would fix it. As performing any action would break invisibility as it is currently programmed into the game.


It would fix it but it'd also heavily alter the class balance. Ranged shoving attacks are already better than the bonus action shove for the most part. Turning shove into a regular action is just going to make archer builds, battle masters, and warlocks even stronger by comparison to other classes than they already are.


There is an additional concern to making shove a action in this game that the Dev's probably considered. It has a 100% chance of success while hiding, so if you just move behind an enemy bonus action hide and then shove as an action there is nothing to stop you from pushing people without resistance on any class. But this is also due to how they made hide a bonus action for everyone. Though that is a whole different issue.

In other words, because they made shove always succeed while hidden it had to consume the same type of action as hide otherwise their game would be broken, but the Theif rogue completely invalidates that concern.
Posted By: Sunfly Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 02:26 PM
There is virtually no reason right now to pick anything for Warlock besides cha blast and shove blast. Everything else you can gain either via optimizing your background and race or via in-game items. Battle Master is another non-example because of how incredibly strong ranged shoves are and the fact that their ranged shove also gets bonus damage (on an ability that will presumably already be generating lots of bonus damage). EK has some convenient abilities but the only major reason to pick it over battle master is because you're trying to make burst damage team and need more spellcasters. Build specialization is only a sacrifice if that build isn't generally superior to the alternatives. And again, on top of these examples there are arrows any accurate archer can use that also offer ranged shoving. I get your point that you can do both at the same time but if you were already planning to abuse bonus action melee shoves and you aren't a Thief then why are you not just optimizing around purely abusing ranged shoves instead? They're a lot safer and their subclass/subchoice investment is almost never at the cost of anything significant unless you're trying to run very particular team arrangements.
Posted By: FrostyFardragon Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by Sunfly
There is virtually no reason right now to pick anything for Warlock besides cha blast and shove blast. Everything else you can gain either via optimizing your background and race or via in-game items. Battle Master is another non-example because of how incredibly strong ranged shoves are and the fact that their ranged shove also gets bonus damage (on an ability that will presumably already be generating lots of bonus damage). EK has some convenient abilities but the only major reason to pick it over battle master is because you're trying to make burst damage team and need more spellcasters. Build specialization is only a sacrifice if that build isn't generally superior to the alternatives. And again, on top of these examples there are arrows any accurate archer can use that also offer ranged shoving. I get your point that you can do both at the same time but if you were already planning to abuse bonus action melee shoves and you aren't a Thief then why are you not just optimizing around purely abusing ranged shoves instead? They're a lot safer and their subclass/subchoice investment is almost never at the cost of anything significant unless you're trying to run very particular team arrangements.


Warlock* and Battlemaster work just the same in PnP, and whist good, the other classes don't need free shoving to keep up.


*Apart from Devil's Sight lets you see in magical darkness (unlike darkvision), which is massively powerful combined with the Darkness spell.
Posted By: Sunfly Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by FrostyFardragon
Originally Posted by Sunfly
There is virtually no reason right now to pick anything for Warlock besides cha blast and shove blast. Everything else you can gain either via optimizing your background and race or via in-game items. Battle Master is another non-example because of how incredibly strong ranged shoves are and the fact that their ranged shove also gets bonus damage (on an ability that will presumably already be generating lots of bonus damage). EK has some convenient abilities but the only major reason to pick it over battle master is because you're trying to make burst damage team and need more spellcasters. Build specialization is only a sacrifice if that build isn't generally superior to the alternatives. And again, on top of these examples there are arrows any accurate archer can use that also offer ranged shoving. I get your point that you can do both at the same time but if you were already planning to abuse bonus action melee shoves and you aren't a Thief then why are you not just optimizing around purely abusing ranged shoves instead? They're a lot safer and their subclass/subchoice investment is almost never at the cost of anything significant unless you're trying to run very particular team arrangements.


Warlock* and Battlemaster work just the same in PnP, and whist good, the other classes don't need free shoving to keep up.


*Apart from Devil's Sight lets you see in magical darkness (unlike darkvision), which is massively powerful combined with the Darkness spell.


They don't? Maybe that's how it is in tabletop 5e but going by what's effective in BG3 I don't think the same is true here. One shove can execute entire bosses and there's a plethora of "regular" fights where one shove can delete an equal number of enemies. Thief benefits from melee shoving because he gets two tries, everybody else becomes immensely more threatening with a ranged shove in the pocket because suddenly you don't have to try and bait the ai into vulnerable positions nearly as hard.

Devil's Sight is nice for what it is but it's also one of the things I meant when I said that background and race optimization cover anything you couldn't replace with items. Even if you're not optimizing super hard you can still work dancing lights onto most player characters with ease (and also get it from items). With that much access to darkvision and light manipulation already it's hard for me to see why you wouldn't want the infinitely spammable ranged shove instead. I do see your point about magical darkness but you could also simply use that slot to cast misty step and reposition in a way that forces whatever is in the darkness to come out.
Posted By: Thrythlind Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by FrostyFardragon
Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Which means it can be done as either part of an action or bonus action.

Wrong. In 5e something is ether an action or a bonus action. You cannot use an action to carry out a bonus action, you cannot use a bonus action to carry out an action. Only special class abilities allow a character to do something using either.

From 5e Sage Advice:
Quote
Actions and bonus actions aren't interchangeable. In the example, the bard could use Bardic Inspiration or healing word on a turn, but not both.

WotC Sage Advice compendium.





Shove and Grapple aren't actions or bonus actions in and of themselves, they are things you can do in place of an attack. There is no Shove action. There is an Attack action and you can replace attacks given to you by the Attack action with shoves on a one-for-one basis. So anybody with Extra Attack could shove twice if they want. Heck, a Monk with Flurry of Blows at 5th level can shove 4 times. A Frenzied Berserker in frenzy can shove twice at 3rd level (bonus attack) and 3 times at 5th.

Switching shove from attack-option to a full Bonus Action sort of limits its use by the martials. It is also limited by the fact that you can't chose to knock someone prone and have them sit there. Shove prone+Grapple (they are now prone at 0 speed and thus unable to stand) is a great way on the TTRPG which you can't pull off here. Nor can you go on a shoving spree quite the way you can in the tabletop. Making the shove in general involve much further distances addresses that loss however. Overall, the impact of shove is different but not particularly any more powerful.
Posted By: Horrorscope Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 03:18 PM
Originally Posted by FrostyFardragon
Shove is currently very overpowered, I find I'm winning more fights by shoving enemies into pits/the water than by frying them with spells or prodding them with pointy bits of metal.

It should be an action rather than a bonus action.


First I don't disagree, but it this is a thing the AI should be smarter than stand near high ledges.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 03:26 PM
I'll repost in my idea for Shove mechanics as well:

Originally Posted by Stabbey
I made a thread about this, and my suggestions are as follows:

  • Shoving should be an Athletics check versus the higher score of the target's Acrobatics or Athletics.
  • Display the check in the combat log.
  • The attacker rolls with advantage if the attacker is one size category larger that the target. If the attacker is two categories larger than the target, the shove automatically succeeds.
  • The attacker rolls with disadvantage if the target is one size category larger than the attacker. If the target is two categories larger than the attacker, the shove automatically fails.
  • The attacker rolls with advantage if the target has the surprised condition.
  • If the target is completely unaware, the shove is an automatic success, if the attacker is the same size category or larger than the target.
  • If the target is completely unaware, the shove is a contested roll if the attacker is one size category SMALLER than the target. (A straight roll, as the advantage from the target being unaware is cancelled by the target being a larger size than the attacker.)
  • Shove should be a bonus action for Fighters and Barbarians only, and a full action for every other class.
  • Mage Hands should not be able to shove living creatures (or undead, constructs, summons, etc). Shoving dead bodies is fine.


My reasoning for "Shove should be a bonus action for Fighters and Barbarians only, and a full action for every other class" is because it's a compromise between Larian's concern about Fighters feeling like there's not much to do in the early game, and the actual 5e rules.

I am also fine with Shove being a full action for everyone.
Posted By: Orbax Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 03:33 PM
I don't think shoving can be resolved as an isolated "fix". The entire combat economy needs to be redone to incorporate everything correctly.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by Orbax
I don't think shoving can be resolved as an isolated "fix". The entire combat economy needs to be redone to incorporate everything correctly.


You eat an elephant one bite at a time. This is one bite.
Posted By: Merry Mayhem Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by Orbax
I don't think shoving can be resolved as an isolated "fix". The entire combat economy needs to be redone to incorporate everything correctly.


You eat an elephant one bite at a time. This is one bite.


Not in this game, I eat it as a bonus action and it heals me! wink
Posted By: Sunfly Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by Orbax
I don't think shoving can be resolved as an isolated "fix". The entire combat economy needs to be redone to incorporate everything correctly.


You eat an elephant one bite at a time. This is one bite.


Elephant isn't exactly delicious, we eat it one bite at a time because we have to. There's no reason a game's combat can only be altered one change at a time, especially if you already know your changes will leave vacuums in other areas.
Posted By: Orbax Re: Shove should be an action - 15/10/20 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by Orbax
I don't think shoving can be resolved as an isolated "fix". The entire combat economy needs to be redone to incorporate everything correctly.


You eat an elephant one bite at a time. This is one bite.


Ok, you just ate a leg, the rest of the elephant fell down. Also, as a solutions architect, my career is based on stopping people from fixing things one at a time like rats at a feeder bar taking in issues. Its how you end up with "accidental" or "organic" systems that you now have a system the way it is because a dev team pulled a tetsuo and trapper-keepered in quick hits.

You have to try to see why its like the way it is. Here are some of my theories

- Jump / Disengage as an action. Because you are consistently put into clusterF scenarios with environmental issues, elevation traps, and an *incredibly* ambiguous "threatened" v "in melee and will get an AOO" range. You will die without this mechanic. I have never used jump and never even come close in all of my D&D years playing to come to what I have had to do in this game to date. So if we looked at "fixing" that (not saying this thread is) it wouldnt solve the issue of why it needs to be so heavily used and why changing its economy would make the game extremely difficult.

- Dip. Sure. Only a few things are actually worth wasting a BA on doing that instead of getting a solid hit with a magical weapon, so it should be done prior to battle if possible anyway. Good early game if you find some poison though.

- Shove. Why are you shoving in the first place? That never happens in D&D. We also know Larian loves elevation so they needed a way to take advantage of that. Start a fire, sneak up, shove them off the cliff into it. Or put feather fall on yourself and have a team mate shove you across something. Some fun stuff. But why is it a combat mechanic that is so easily executed when you have jump and disengage. Shove doesnt even knock them prone. Jump is your disengage, this is a combat maneuver and has a 100% success rate on "unsuspecting" (whatever that means) creatures. Its grossly overpowered and you can take most of the encounters and set up a push-centric battle strategy that takes almost no resources, limits your damage, and makes it so they can't close effectively. It is also not based on str for distance.

My theory: I don't have one. it doesn't make any sense. It should be a str based athletics v athletics/Acrobatics contest with a max distance of 10. As someone mentioned, an attack that is a special attack like grapple. Not going to be used very much at that point except ring-out fighting tactics. A nice pocket option, not heavily used by anyone other than fighters and later barbs. I think there is a context missing of why they aren't letting eldritch blast with a push and thunderwave shine. Forget the mage hand thing, its so dumb and turns it into an action once every 3 rounds to keep doing it. Why not let the people with actual force mechanics do the force stuff? What are we gaining by ring-out tactics in this game? It gives a "heh" factor, but I only catch myself doing it if the fight is entirely too difficult. So, if it is going to be an option at all, Im down with it being a type of attack. I get through the game just fine without it and if it went away entirely, wouldn't really care. If they have introduced an issue with it becoming a pushing match like it does in the duergar fight in the underdark, that needs to be solved. I think it would be better served being replaced with grapple and being able to drag people to the edge and drop with checks at the start of every turn.

Hide: Shouldn't be needed by anyone other than rogues. You don't really get a benefit from it other than it breaking aggro. Which is the real problem. They will run across the map to nail a squish even though it puts them into imminent danger from 3 murder monsters. They will do anything to kill that person. Hide automatically removes them from the aggro order. Breaking LOS doesn't make them recalculate, only hiding. Hiding is a band-aid to the larger issue of AI tactic precedence. To me.

Throw/dash/knock out/help - no real issues there. Help expanded to giving someone advantage would be nice. But that is your action in all the cases they have listed


I think there is a larger issue regarding the nature of the combat and the environments you get put into that are making people need it as much as they are. It being a bonus action is good if you need it that much. Making it an action makes sense if it doesnt mean a TPK every other fight. But just doing it based on what it technically would be in the book is merely solving a pedantic gripe.
Posted By: Drath Malorn Re: Shove should be an action - 25/11/21 05:05 PM
I just figured I would add my +1 to this request. It's all in title :

Shove should cost an Action.

I am tempted to add the following requests.

  • The shove-distance should be 1.5m (5ft). Or perhaps depend on the Strength of the shover.
  • It should be possible to Shove-to-prone, in addition to Shove-push.
  • When a character is able to make multiple attacks with their Attack action, they should be able to replace one of them by a Shove.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Shove should be an action - 25/11/21 05:56 PM
+1 For all those people who love shoving enemies, at level 5 currently your fighter/paladin/barbarian/ranger will still only be able to shove once per turn. However, if shove is modified to match RAW (replace an attack with a shove) then you'll be able to shove twice per turn!

If your fighter Action Surges, then they could shove 4x in a single turn at level 5!
If you get hasted, then you'll get another shove attempt! (Possibly 2 more depending on how Larian implements the interaction between Haste and Extra Attack)
At level 11, your fighter could shove 3x per turn, 6x if action surged, 7-9x if Hasted!

None of the above happens with a bonus action shove. It will always be only once per turn, except for I suppose rogues maybe with their additional BA...?
Posted By: Niathlak Re: Shove should be an action - 25/11/21 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
  • The shove-distance should be 1.5m (5ft). Or perhaps depend on the Strength of the shover.
  • It should be possible to Shove-to-prone, in addition to Shove-push.
  • When a character is able to make multiple attacks with their Attack action, they should be able to replace one of them by a Shove.
Love the new Shovemaster fighter subclass laugh
In all seriousness tho; Scaling shove-length with STR is a good suggestion, so much so im surprised it doesnt work like that already. I think now its only shove chance?
STR is often a undervalued stat imo, would add more value to it.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
+1 For all those people who love shoving enemies, at level 5 currently your fighter/paladin/barbarian/ranger will still only be able to shove once per turn. However, if shove is modified to match RAW (replace an attack with a shove) then you'll be able to shove twice per turn!

If your fighter Action Surges, then they could shove 4x in a single turn at level 5!
If you get hasted, then you'll get another shove attempt! (Possibly 2 more depending on how Larian implements the interaction between Haste and Extra Attack)
At level 11, your fighter could shove 3x per turn, 6x if action surged, 7-9x if Hasted!

None of the above happens with a bonus action shove. It will always be only once per turn, except for I suppose rogues maybe with their additional BA...?

This is a good point. I think currently there is too few bonus actions in general for a lot of classes, so I agree its better as a bonus action. That way you avoid excessive shove attempts. And thief rogues dont usually have high STR so they might need an extra attempt anyway.

Also, by shoving people into lava and such you often dont get their loot. Its not all sunshine and rainbows.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Shove should be an action - 25/11/21 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
None of the above happens with a bonus action shove. It will always be only once per turn, except for I suppose rogues maybe with their additional BA...?

To complete : You forgot to mention that as a BA, it will only be once / turn but at every single turns because most classes and ennemies won't ever have anything better to do with their BA (than using shove to push, to disengage, to awake a sleeping ally,...)

There's no choice between "shoving or doing nothing" ?
Posted By: UnknownEvil Re: Shove should be an action - 25/11/21 07:41 PM
We use D&D 5e as base for the rules of this game. Changing a single thing in a ruleset can break it. Implementing shove as bonus action did exactly that.

As per PHB of D&D5e :

"Using the Attack action to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push (not throw) it away from you. If you're able to to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this replaces one of them.
The target of your shove must be no more than one size larger than you, and it must be within your reach. You make a Strenght (Athletics) check contestet by the target's Strenght (Athletics) or Dexterity
(Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you win the contest, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you."

This is the exact wording. No Bonus action, no throwing over walls or to the moon. 5 feet are approx 1,5m.

We also miss the "ready" ready action, which has a big impact on combat.

Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Help, Hide and Grapple (wich we don't have) are also actions.

The bonus action as per PHB:

"Various features, spells, and other alilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action. The Cunning Action feature, for example, allows a rogue to take a bonus action. You can take a bonus action only when a
special ability, spell or other feature of the games states that you can do someting as a bonus action. You otherwise don't have bonus actions to take.
You can only take one bonus action on your turn, so you must choose which bonus action to use when you have more than one available.
You choose to take when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action."

That makes it pretty clear why Larians decision to change the bonus action almost totally changes the dynamics of 5e combat. 'nuff said.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Shove should be an action - 25/11/21 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
+1 For all those people who love shoving enemies, at level 5 currently your fighter/paladin/barbarian/ranger will still only be able to shove once per turn. However, if shove is modified to match RAW (replace an attack with a shove) then you'll be able to shove twice per turn!

If your fighter Action Surges, then they could shove 4x in a single turn at level 5!
If you get hasted, then you'll get another shove attempt! (Possibly 2 more depending on how Larian implements the interaction between Haste and Extra Attack)
At level 11, your fighter could shove 3x per turn, 6x if action surged, 7-9x if Hasted!

None of the above happens with a bonus action shove. It will always be only once per turn, except for I suppose rogues maybe with their additional BA...?
12 attacks or shoves for a haste surprise attack by an 11th level Fighter before the enemy gets to do anything will do a great job at highlighting the strengths of turn based combat.

/sarcasm

But seriously, how is that not going to be a huge problem? You can shove someone across the map if you don't just feel like killing them with a Greatsword.
Posted By: Kind_Flayer Re: Shove should be an action - 26/11/21 01:56 AM
There are two problems with shove in BG3. As already noted, it is currently a bonus action. Secondly, the physics are exaggerated so characters that get shoved fly much further than they should. Per the PHB, the max distance is 5ft, which is obviously way different from the BG3 implementation.

I have never seen shove abused in D&D, like it currently is BG3.
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