Larian Studios
Posted By: OneManArmy Help the wounded mind flayer - 17/10/20 03:05 AM
After the ship crashes, we meet a Mind Flayer with HP 3.
I was upset when I learned that he cannot be healed with magic or helped through the action button, or dialogue after passing all the dice rolls.
It may look stupid, but why can't I do it if such a thought occurred to me? I wanted to let him understand that hypnosis does not work for me, but I want to help, talk to him and get answers about the worm in my head
Perhaps we will meet this mind flayer later and he will influence the plot. (in the goblin camp, for example, he will be alive, and he will say something about the fact that we helped him)
Posted By: Traycor Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 17/10/20 03:47 AM
Yeah, any game I've ever run, the players would be like, "This is the solution to all our problems!"
Instead it's just played as a moment for revenge.
Posted By: struggler_guts Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 17/10/20 03:58 AM
Yeah I was also disappointed that even choosing all the helpful options he ends up trying to kill us still
Posted By: Postwave Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 17/10/20 03:58 AM
I totally think that attempt should be available to you — but it's also reasonable for it to not work. Mindflayers are alien and see themselves as totally superior. There's no "it will be full of gratitude for being saved" path. It's completely reasonable for the game to let you try it — but then the game should make it very very clear that it won't work.
Posted By: Traycor Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 17/10/20 04:04 AM
Originally Posted by Postwave
I totally think that attempt should be available to you — but it's also reasonable for it to not work. Mindflayers are alien and see themselves as totally superior. There's no "it will be full of gratitude for being saved" path. It's completely reasonable for the game to let you try it — but then the game should make it very very clear that it won't work.

Agreed, but I can totally see players ripping off its tentacles one by one until it decides to talk.
Posted By: Zer0 Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 17/10/20 04:09 AM
Mind Flayers aren't helpful. However you treat it, you're only one of two things to it: food or breeding stock. They feel massively superior to the humanoid races, and rightfully so. The average Mind Flayer is as much smarter than the average human as the average human is smarter than the average cow.

If you want to be silly enough to save it, there should be a couple different options to do so, but then it makes complete sense that it will just kill you as soon as it's not dying anymore.
Posted By: Traycor Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 17/10/20 04:15 AM
Originally Posted by Zer0
If you want to be silly enough to save it, there should be a couple different options to do so, but then it makes complete sense that it will just kill you as soon as it's not dying anymore.

Sounds like excellent drama and excitement to me!
Posted By: JDCrenton Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 17/10/20 04:32 AM
It's pointless since you don't even get exp for passing the checks. You have to kill it while it's on the ground. I also beat it recovered and it just vanishes.
Posted By: Crikk Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 17/10/20 04:43 AM
Yeah... I tried to talk to it once and it tried to dominate me. Every play-through since I just blast it as soon as I get within range.
Trying to help it and expecting it to be helpful is like coming across a gaunt, growling, foaming-at-the-mouth dog and saying "I'm sure if I try to pet it nothing bad will happen". (Spoiler, it's going to try to eat your hand!)
Posted By: clavis Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 17/10/20 04:54 AM
Originally Posted by Crikk
Yeah... I tried to talk to it once and it tried to dominate me. Every play-through since I just blast it as soon as I get within range.
Trying to help it and expecting it to be helpful is like coming across a gaunt, growling, foaming-at-the-mouth dog and saying "I'm sure if I try to pet it nothing bad will happen". (Spoiler, it's going to try to eat your hand!)

+1
Posted By: Redwyrm Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 17/10/20 06:52 AM
Why would you possibly want to help mindflayers?
Of all creatures, there no more racist species than mindflayers. They look upon any other races as bugs - literally.
Expecting mindflayer to be grateful, is like trying to converse with hurricane.
Posted By: Dark_Ansem Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 17/10/20 08:56 AM
You can help the mindflayer by offering your brain.
Posted By: Gaidax Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 17/10/20 09:02 AM
Frankly, they should offer an options for those who are foolish enough to do it. Probably should also trigger game over screen.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 26/10/20 09:15 PM
I tried to heal him with the Shadow Heart spell. He was healed ... and died immediately. Bug
Posted By: Rhovaniel Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 26/10/20 10:44 PM
Originally Posted by Redwyrm
Why would you possibly want to help mindflayers?
Of all creatures, there no more racist species than mindflayers. They look upon any other races as bugs - literally.
Expecting mindflayer to be grateful, is like trying to converse with hurricane.


That's a bit racist of you!
Posted By: Niara Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 27/10/20 03:26 AM
I wanted to converse with the mindflayer while it was in a disadvantageous position - it's intelligent and it doesn't want to die, and it has a story to tell and knows things, important things. That's a huge part of what social interaction in games like this is all about, but Larian's writers never even entertained it as a possible option that players might want to pursue. Unfortunately, that, and other 'dialogue' sequences scattered through the intro and the early stages of the chapter really do sum up Larian's writing style, and it's distressing and depressing to think that the whole game might end up like this. Larian writes conversations like fights to be won, or expressions of dominance, and nothing else. The idea of having a conversation where someone isn't actively trying to boss everyone else around, or lord their superiority (in some fashion) over the other person, seems to be an almost wholly alien concept to their scripting so far, and that, more than anything else, is going to make the game distasteful and a struggle to enjoy. It was what made DOS2 unenjoyable as well. Maybe the intro and the scenes along the beach and nearby areas where you're gathering your party aren't actually going to be indicative of how conversations go for the rest of the game... but if not they are a terrible, terrible way to start out and introduce players to them.
Posted By: Fisher Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 27/10/20 04:18 AM
Originally Posted by Niara
I wanted to converse with the mindflayer while it was in a disadvantageous position - it's intelligent and it doesn't want to die, and it has a story to tell and knows things, important things. That's a huge part of what social interaction in games like this is all about, but Larian's writers never even entertained it as a possible option that players might want to pursue.

Or perhaps the Mind Flayer is not particularly interested in conversing with what it views as slaves and livestock. Offer your brain to help it survive, or kill it. There's no other options because the MIND FLAYER is not interested in anything else.

Originally Posted by Niara
Larian writes conversations like fights to be won, or expressions of dominance, and nothing else. The idea of having a conversation where someone isn't actively trying to boss everyone else around, or lord their superiority (in some fashion) over the other person, seems to be an almost wholly alien concept to their scripting so far, and that, more than anything else, is going to make the game distasteful and a struggle to enjoy. It was what made DOS2 unenjoyable as well. Maybe the intro and the scenes along the beach and nearby areas where you're gathering your party aren't actually going to be indicative of how conversations go for the rest of the game... but if not they are a terrible, terrible way to start out and introduce players to them.

What you're describing does not fit my recollection of my multiple playthroughs to completion AT ALL. There are numerous conversations where you can simply ask questions and get to know more. The only adversarial conversations tends to be ones where tensions are already high. There are options that are less "assert dominance" and more "deescalate the situation," though. They're skill checks for the skill Persuasion. If you're trying to Intimidate, of course it's going to be like you describe.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 27/10/20 04:32 AM
I'll just say that ideal RPG is one in which the player can make any decision that theoretically can come to his head. BG3 is great compared to other similar games, but there are moments where it could be done even better. Yes, even if he would have attacked me immediately after healing with the ability, they did not even think that someone would want to do it and see what would happen. I just wanted to see something other than a bug. Even if it is an attack and a sarcastic comment from our companion
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 27/10/20 04:47 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I'll just say that ideal RPG is one in which the player can make any decision that theoretically can come to his head. BG3 is great compared to other similar games, but there are moments where it could be done even better. Yes, even if he would have attacked me immediately after healing with the ability, they did not even think that someone would want to do it and see what would happen. I just wanted to see something other than a bug

Agreed. You should be able to heal the mindflayer. It is an NPC and you should be able to cast spells/give potions to any and all NPCs. After which, it should probably attack you. But maybe, just maybe (difficult persuasion check), it puts you into the category of "helpful servant" instead of "food." Or it takes a moment to search your brain, and recognizes that you have a tadpole in your head and thus it should probably try to keep you alive for breeding/Absolute purposes.

Then it could order you to do additional tasks to aid it (tasks that would obviously involve a lot of killing and kidnapping). If you disobeyed or questioned it, you'd have to pass a difficult charisma or intelligence check or it would become hostile. Now that could be an interesting playthrough: having to follow the mindflayer's instructions or risk having your brain eaten, always a single failed deception/persuasion check away from it realizing that you have too much free will and it would be better served eating you.

I could see you going to the grove offering your aid to the tieflings, except instead of leading them to Baldur's Gate you lead them directly to the mindflayer >:)
Or the mindflayer tells you to go directly to the goblin hideout to coordinate with the other True Souls...
Posted By: Sadurian Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 27/10/20 06:04 AM
If I offered my tabletop RPG players a game where they were all controlled by a vastly superior intelligence and essentially had no free will, I can't see that they would be jumping at the chance to play.

It's bad enough having them play as (reasonably) law-abiding citizens or having a boss or organisation for whom they work. Having the characters literally mind slaves to the GM/mind-flayer's whim would rightly earn me a hard look and revocation of GM screen privileges.
Posted By: Niara Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 27/10/20 07:12 AM
Originally Posted by Fisher
What you're describing does not fit my recollection of my multiple playthroughs to completion AT ALL. There are numerous conversations where you can simply ask questions and get to know more. The only adversarial conversations tends to be ones where tensions are already high. There are options that are less "assert dominance" and more "deescalate the situation," though.


Oh certainly there were a number of more sensible conversations to be had in DOS2 - But the overall tone was one of a world full of arseholes, and a game which gave you plenty of dialogue options to be one as well... but precious, precious few to to speak against it or stand up against bad behaviour in anything short of a violent manner. It made it unpleasant to play - no matter how the reasoning for making the game like that is explained, that's the truth of it, from my perspective; the reasoning doesn't matter when the result was that I found it unenjoyable to subject myself to series after series of horrible people behaving horribly, and having to simply carry on the conversations and let them, because I'm not allowed to call them down for it, short of killing them. I tried to do a second playthrough, and found I just didn't WANT to go through all those unpleasant personal interactions again. I do NOT want BG3 to end up like that... but it's made a very bad start in that direction.

My experience with BG3 conversations and dialogues so far as been a distinctly disheartening and unpleasant one. Every single companion I've picked up, at first meeting, has made it their point of vigorously asserting dominance, condescending to me, touting their superiority or otherwise being deeply unpleasant... in the cases where the NPCs *aren't* doing that, my only dialogue options are to do that to them *instead*. (Take Lizzy in the cage as an example: The npcs weren't domineering, sure, but instead, MY options there were 1) take control of the situation without asking any questions, and lie to them in order to scare them off by enacting fantasy racism, 2) take control of the situation without asking any questions, and trick them into letting her down ,based on suggestion that we should kill her because she's so alien and weird looking, and thus probably dangerous 3) Attack them, or 4) leave. Oh, and also the option to mock and taunt Lizzy... but nothing positive or reassuring to say to her. Nowhere was there any option to ask them what was going on, or learn anything more about the situation.)

It's not a good first impression. This has nothing to do with their perceived alignment - other RPGs have shown us time and time again that it's quite possible to have ultimately good people who are jerks to be around, and morally red characters who are, nevertheless, reasonable and amicable.

That is my first impression: those are the conversations I've had and experienced. If those were to be the first series of interpersonal interactions I faced when starting a new game, I would dread continuing it, and I would not be excited.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 27/10/20 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by Niara
I wanted to converse with the mindflayer while it was in a disadvantageous position - it's intelligent and it doesn't want to die, and it has a story to tell and knows things, important things. That's a huge part of what social interaction in games like this is all about, but Larian's writers never even entertained it as a possible option that players might want to pursue. Unfortunately, that, and other 'dialogue' sequences scattered through the intro and the early stages of the chapter really do sum up Larian's writing style, and it's distressing and depressing to think that the whole game might end up like this. Larian writes conversations like fights to be won, or expressions of dominance, and nothing else. The idea of having a conversation where someone isn't actively trying to boss everyone else around, or lord their superiority (in some fashion) over the other person, seems to be an almost wholly alien concept to their scripting so far, and that, more than anything else, is going to make the game distasteful and a struggle to enjoy. It was what made DOS2 unenjoyable as well. Maybe the intro and the scenes along the beach and nearby areas where you're gathering your party aren't actually going to be indicative of how conversations go for the rest of the game... but if not they are a terrible, terrible way to start out and introduce players to them.

Why would it want to have a dialog with a thrall? I mean, I talk to my cat all the time, but that doesn't stop her from biting me when she's ready to bite me, or reaching down from the desk to "poke" my hand with her claws when she thinks she's not getting enough attention. The lost part of this perspective here is that we are, according to the mindflayer, slaves. Yes, the goal is for us to become mindflayers, presumably, since this is how we reproduce, but how much dialog are going to have with embryos? I think the reasonable response to attempting to reason with the mindflayer is exactly what happens in game, it asserts it's authority.

Note that when we're given the opportunity to use our tadpole powers it says "Authority"? I'm thinking that's not an accident.
Posted By: Tzariax Re: Help the wounded mind flayer - 27/10/20 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Niara
I wanted to converse with the mindflayer while it was in a disadvantageous position - it's intelligent and it doesn't want to die, and it has a story to tell and knows things, important things. That's a huge part of what social interaction in games like this is all about, but Larian's writers never even entertained it as a possible option that players might want to pursue. Unfortunately, that, and other 'dialogue' sequences scattered through the intro and the early stages of the chapter really do sum up Larian's writing style, and it's distressing and depressing to think that the whole game might end up like this. Larian writes conversations like fights to be won, or expressions of dominance, and nothing else. The idea of having a conversation where someone isn't actively trying to boss everyone else around, or lord their superiority (in some fashion) over the other person, seems to be an almost wholly alien concept to their scripting so far, and that, more than anything else, is going to make the game distasteful and a struggle to enjoy. It was what made DOS2 unenjoyable as well. Maybe the intro and the scenes along the beach and nearby areas where you're gathering your party aren't actually going to be indicative of how conversations go for the rest of the game... but if not they are a terrible, terrible way to start out and introduce players to them.

Why would it want to have a dialog with a thrall? I mean, I talk to my cat all the time, but that doesn't stop her from biting me when she's ready to bite me, or reaching down from the desk to "poke" my hand with her claws when she thinks she's not getting enough attention. The lost part of this perspective here is that we are, according to the mindflayer, slaves. Yes, the goal is for us to become mindflayers, presumably, since this is how we reproduce, but how much dialog are going to have with embryos? I think the reasonable response to attempting to reason with the mindflayer is exactly what happens in game, it asserts it's authority.

Note that when we're given the opportunity to use our tadpole powers it says "Authority"? I'm thinking that's not an accident.


Agree, from a RP and Lore perspective, the Mind Flayer would not give 2 hoots about you. If you help it up, it should realistically ask you to obey failing which it would take you out.
© Larian Studios forums