I seriously don't get it. 5e is already an edition with a lot of hp inflation and low lethality, mainly if compared to 2e. Why inflate enemy hit points even further? I saw an lv 4 spider in a cave with freaking 138 hp. Back on 2e times, Vecna, a Legendary demigod Lich had 150 hp. Demogorgon, one of the most legendary demon lords, had 200 hp. Myrkul avatar, 228. Goblins which you cold slay an entire army with an single fireball on previous BG, takes so much time to die. It is not fun or engaging, just boring.

138 hp is enough to soak 18 heavy crossbow bolts from a good(+3 dex/str) hunter. firing dozens of eldritch blasts, firebolts, arrow shots and polleaxes swings is not fun or engaging. Just tedious.

5e already has a lot of bloat. We don't need more hp bloat. Especially in a turn based game with slow animations and no option to use concurrent turns like ToEE had.

I think this is in part one of the dominoes which fell as a result of surfaces and AoE's everywhere, and really, really easy advantage from Height and backstabbing making hits a lot easier. All that stuff in the game made it easier to kill enemies, so they tossed in higher HP to compensate for increased damage, instead of reducing the extra sources of damage.

I personally would prefer large numbers of low-HP/low-AC opponents....re: the 1 HP minions from 4e. Being able to have large swarms of enemies out but ability to cut them down quickly and easily makes for an epic feel.

Make the enemies using this stuff against the player too. However, making enemies able to soak dozens of arbalests/longbows shots that should be enough to kill an bear in a well placed shot(critical) and was able to do that on older editions is just silly.

Turn based = ok. There are a lot of amazing TB games. Dark Sun : Shattered Sands and Wake of the Ravager, Knights of the Chalice and Temple of Elemental Evil.

Turn based + large scale battles + ULTRA ridiculous hp bloat where spiders can have 138 hp and goblins 50 hp + slow animations = not ok. The game becomes tedious and instead of cool spells and weapons feeling cool, they fell worthless.

The HP bloat is an issue now, and it will be later too.

I want to feel like I can one-shot goblins at level 4 with a good Eldritch Blast.

Larian may also decide to put goblins in further down the line, and I do not want them scaled up hardcore.
What's the point of having a caster learn abilities like Fireball if you can't use it to cut out all the fodder in an epic explosion?

I can see it now. A horde of goblins when your characters are level 5/6/7, and they're all the same level as you for reasons.
Gale throws a Fireball, just making a giant floor covered in fire, not killing a single goblin.
Then he gets focused and dies immediately.

That's not the game I want to be playing.

They didn't change the PC's HP and AC, just the enemy's.

that one was a boss, and it wasn't her HP that was the problem, it was the ability to one shot 2 of my companions a turn, while spawning 6 or 7 little ones, and having another grown one as backup, or 2 depending on what you did. still killed her without cheesing, early witch bolt for the win.

Her hp do to limitations was something I could see. now doing that when you fight Guts is stupid, thankfully they avoided that. yet like the 2 shot ability of the spider, the amount of magic, surface creating, sheer amount of damage that ends with tpk in one to 3 rounds is again a bigger problem. oh yeah imo...

If the game has a hidden opportunity to meet with one of the avatars of the Gods, I wonder how much HP he will have if the player decides to attack

I'd ask why I player would, but figure I'd already know the answer.....

4k easy

Its just one design choice leading to more issues. Subpar to terrible design choices compounding and creating more issues.

The demon commander from the prologue has already been killed, there was a video on YouTube. I will not be surprised if they will kill 4k avatar too for achievement

As another question, even ordinary spider fights are difficult for me

On 2e, see the book Faiths & Avatars. Myrkul stats is on page 124. He has 228 hp.
On 5e, IDK but expect stats similar to Tiamat.
On BG3, probably over 8k



Vecna, a legendary demigod lich on Vecna's reborn had 150 hp. And was far above an regular "boss". The module himself recommend starting on lv 10 and that players should't fight him. Should try to escape from his realm of dread and flee from him. Cuz you honestly even at epic levels has little to no chances against him...

Dragons on Original BG2 was """"bosses"""" and had about 200 hp. Firkraag, an Dragon which most people can only defeat on later chapters at lv 15+, had 184 hp.



And the change only made the combat extremely boring.

I can't wait to see the 10 hour challenge on killing the avatar of God from bloggers and streamers, and Easter eggs after

8k with a strong hero is powerful. I wonder how they'll kill them and what will happen after (I don't believe no one can break the game)


Yes, 0.1% of players will do it, but it will be interesting for everyone to watch on YouTube

I really don't want to see HP bloat either. It belongs in grindy MMO's with 15 random people raiding a boss. Not here.

"Bosses" can have resistances and they have minions. They can have an unfair advantage that is more intelligent than giving them +100HP.

For our characters to feel heroic, their stats, including HP, need to be comparable to the enemies. We need to be able to believe that we fight in the same league. Maybe we could 1v1 a boss.. with a little help. But all that is thrown out the window the second something has 10x your HP or some ridiculous amount in the hundreds or thousands. It instantly means you need an MMO style gang, or you need to CHEESE somehow. Like plopping down 8 barrels from your inventory and blowing them up for 300 damage on an "unsuspecting" enemy. D&D isn't about that and I don't want that in BG3. "Video game" doesn't cut it here.

@op cause getting lengthy, and scrolly. so your last post

true, but even in those fights most times you weren't being one shot. As for the hp difference take into consideration the amount of surface damage you can do, with cantrips, fall damage, shove etc. I seperated fall, and shove do to this fight where you can burn the web beneath her. Dealing damage etc, and then shove which you can do to get fall damage. So the hp bloat currently makes sense, until the other issues get resolved, bonus action shove, action attack, action cantrip burning plus surface damage, then barrels... So again the hp bloat makes sense, when other things are unbalanced, and super cheese mode. Even with the hp bloat no barrels, no shoves, no cantrips, one surface (brine) the fight didn't last very long. With the things I didn't do it would of been even shorter, and not much of a challenge. Perhaps bump her AC up? then you still have to deal with those who use swiss, or add extra cheddar. (okay to not invalidate people) yes it's an option.

Still how would you go about not bumping hp, and still make it a difficult fight?

Did you played ToEE? A lot of people complain about how ToEE is hard and ... No HP bloat. Just put more enemies, more traps and so on.

All D&D turn based games avoided HP bloat. And all good D&D games too.

Part of the appeal of D&D is a heroic power fantasy. If your powers are worthless and you need gimmicky to kill enemies, you kill it from the game.




I strongly agree and even mmos, was much better BEFORE the bloat was the norm.

See for eg, ultima online and dark sun online : crimson sands. Even bosses could die in matter of minutes...



No, that would be a extremely boring thing to watch.

I don't think the HP bloating is that bad in this game, considering the generally lower AC.

I think it is a viable approach to the encounters that makes classes that attack the AC a bit more reliable.

And the classes that don't attack AC.... can just suck?

Is bad in ANY game.

At least make it OPTIONAL!!!!

Eg - "original AC and HP (not recommended)" on settings.

So people who enjoy having to hit an spider with 30 crossbow bolts can enjoy their slow and tedious fights and people who enjoy deadlier encounters can enjoy their fights.

didn't see that in his post. Each class should viable, and reliable. But why have classes that rely on AC to defend against, or get their attack through. When currently all the other options are far more reliable, and prevelant through the game. Currently in it's state their is almost 0 zeros to run a fighter, or any class that is melee heavy. Why because your wizards can do more damage, and stay back then a fighter. They do it through surface effects, plus initial hit, the same goes with rogues. Clerics are always viable so its smarter to run 2 clerics in the game in it's current state to keep everyone healed up from the surface areas, and the occasional melee combatant.

So your just telling melee heavy, AC dependant classes your useless go sit on the bench, and think of your life choses.

As I said in that fight it makes sense, with everything else in that game. If they were simply bloating to bloat, then other 'bosses' wouldn't have pretty standard hp. guts has around same amount as your party. The other leaders in goblin camp same. Ogres within 20 hp or so, goblins some have slightly increased (this do to their levels in a class. Which at times again makes since) So overall the hp bloat doesn't appear to be massive, or all round. It seems you are baised, or dead set on this do to one spider. If you want prove me wrong give me examples of other bloated hps, they can be vague I like vague. Like the minotaurs, or drow, or whatever.

As mentioned, ToEE was a turn based, tactical combat focused D&D game - and actually featured some of the best combat of any D&D. Mobs and bosses fought using intelligent combat, traps, numbers, surprise and to the degree available then, positioning. They did NOT need hp bloat. Momma spider in EA has mid level support spiders, mass mini spider spawn ability, climbing ability to make use of stealth/surprise, poison attacks, multi attacks and so on. There is no reason to add an unnecessaryhp bloat - especially as that leads to further bloat down the line.

I can accept some bloat where goblins are concerned (as goblins can have classes and levels just like the player character) but even then, most goblins should be lvl 1 normal goblins, just as most humans townfolk would be level 1 human bakers, groundskeepers, scullery maids and so on. But 100+ hp spiders (unless they are handmaiderns of Loth or such specialized 'boss' material) do seem to be overboard, and leading to 300 hp tigers, 500 hp ogres, 2k hp hill giants and the like. As pointed out, a 15th level fighter could have close to the 184 hp Firkaag the red dragon possessed in BG2, but numbers and tactics were still needed to overcome all those delicious dragon offenses and defenses. Firkaag didn't need more hp than the total hp of your entire group to be a good opponent.

The HP bloat is problematic, regardless of a lowered AC value. Simply due to the fact that fights, especially the larger ones, take longer and use up more resources than they should. I'm not saying that every goblin must have 7 HP, but neither do they need 15+ HP like some in the Selune temple/Goblin camp. It also devalues spells like sleep that are affected by the HP of the enemies.

That's not an example of something which could reasonably be an option. HP/AC has to be consistent - at least per difficulty level, otherwise the permutations for balancing become too difficult.

The excessive focus on balance is what is killing modern RPG's, but that is another discussion. The main point of a game is to be fun and entertaining. Balanced or not, seeing all your cool weapons/spells being ineffective against an enemy is not fun IMO.



Or just put 2x more goblins but maintain their P&P low HP.



Yep. He had a lot of nasty abilities and defenses. This is why he was a hard battle to take mainly on chapter 2 so most people left him for later chapters. He was not hard cuz you need to spend minutes spamming the same abilities over and over to kill him.

Now I found a gargantuous sized red dragon with 256 hp. His level? 4... Imagine on lv 15...

That's a silly thing to be saying in your own thread which is literally complaining about balance.

I wasn't using balance in the sense that everything has to be perfectly symmetrically equal, but that the more "options" that get put in, the harder it is to test properly, and the more likely things like what you are complaining about end up in the final game.

Ranged 4d6 AOE with poison cloud that last way too many turns. A level 4 spiders shouldn't have that, boss or not. Actually, 5e phase spiders don't even have ranged attacks, they are pure melee.

Also, that boss only give 20 XP, level 3 Goblins gives 25XP. Someone just put that there to see what players would do I think.

Hit points are a abstraction of how much an creature can "take" before going down. An elephant for eg, can probably survive a .22 LR rifle shot but a Rabbit probably won't, hence, this increased durability is translated to higher hp to the elephant. Seeing Goblins at low level with more HP than Ogres is just silly cuz defeat what HP are meant to represent.

The same happens to damage numbers. An Arbalest does more damage than a light crossbow, cuz and heavier crossbow can throw a heavier projectile and higher speed. Simple as that. Other mechanics like AC, are also abstractions of combat. The entire role playing game was born from war gaming. And game mechanics needs to "simulate" the fictional universe.

That last bit is true to many of the things I've said on other posts, and why game is in EA. Which is a testing ground for a larger group of people. Not sure about the entire dice thing I'll test it out, or do you have a screen shot of how much damage? I personally didn't check, or notice but again I took her down really fast, then focused the mid level. The fact that phase spiders are different in 5e is again probably do to Larian trying it out, and their noteable love for wide spread effects. Nothing really knew there, it's part of what makes them who they are. And the op is about HP bloat. Yet so far only one I've heard of is this spider.

I'll need to do more fighting with her, and make sure it lasts awhile this time, stead of 5 rounds top. Oh poor Larians going to have more information. In my playthrough which currently I've fought her twice she never used the aoe, instead summoned spiderlings, and hulked out.
So all goblins are supposed to be universal or near universal. Some of those goblins have classes in cleric, fighter what not which is standard in D&D. It increases their toughness, gives them some perks to make them a viable threat, and turns them from common mob to something a bit more dangerous. Also is used to show that they are not run of the mill goblins, but ones who have trained to do something in particular. Like guard the camp, or boss, maybe they have more experience in battle. Have just blah mobs that are easily one shotted is MMO mindset, not D&D. or most rpgs for that matter. Skyrim Bandit Bosses, Bandit archers, Bandit mages all have different hp levels to show their experience and their training. Goblins should not be any different #goblinsarepeople to. Unless of course you want a world filled with trash mobs, and no realism, one that is without the nuances like goblins having different hp, abilities etc as boring as watching paint peel. Which is an MMO thing and why I don't play them.

On to fights taking longer then they should, yes that is a problem it's not do to hp bloat. It's do to numbers of enemies, balance overall, and to many encounters coming at once. Then again all the encounters is part of most video games, were you mostly walk from one fight to the next. It's not hp bloat it's pacing, which since you can simply camp, fast travel isn't all that much of a problem at times. Though it can be. Which leads back to balance, Balance of not only combat, but the world. How do you make a world feel alive with only a small number of npc's in it. more often then not you dont' because it feels empty. So do you spread the map out a bit more. For instance moving Guts further away from main hall, moving the Zhent trader somewhere else, so on and so forth. Then your using more memory up by adding additional areas, which increases load times. So then you have other issues, which through EA can be fixed. One of the Guts fight problems can be fixed by simply having fewer goblins come to her aid, and having the Zhents stay out of it. Why they would really care about this fight, and not bug out is beyond me. Whoever wins they can trade with.

1 - In this games that you mentioned, EVERYONE criticize that enemies soaks too much damage on harder difficulties.

2 - ToEE was considered an hard game and din't inflated enemy hp and enemy hp uses 3.5e hp values, not 5e which area already inflated

3 - Nobody is complaining about goblins having levels, but a goblin with 50 hp should't be something common. Just like humans with 50 hp should't be a common thing.

Quoting the PHB of AD&D

"These hit points represent how much damage (actual or potential) the character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and / or magical factors. Let us suppose that a fighter has 55 hit points, plus a bonus of 30 hit points for his constitution, for a total of 85 hit points. This is the equivalent of about 18 hit dice for creatures, about what it would take to kill four huge warhorses. It is ridiculous to assume that even a fantastic fighter can take that much punishment. The some holds true to a lesser extent for clerics, thieves, and the other classes. Thus, the majority of hit points are symbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces"

The body of a mid level character is supernatural and hence, he can sustain supernatural amounts of punishment. An Goblin should't be that resistant. And note that on 2e, after lv 10, you barely get any amount of hp. 100 hp was rare even among epic level adventurers.

You probably didn't notice, but the spider with 138, which I killed easily at level 3, will use the "blink" ability everytime to put herself atop a spider web.
If you burn/destroy that web, she falls prone and takes around 38 dmg everytime she does it.

So... easy peasy. Just gotta play smart and as it was said, use the terrain/elements. It died pretty fast after the third "blink" on a web

Yeah. Now that you mention Firkraag : he haste himself, stoneskin, has incredible ac and attack speed, incredible attack damage, a AoE that can one shot your weak party member, a buffet attack that knock out everyone around him and send your character rolling to the edge of the area. Not to mention his magic resist, backstab immunity, invisibility detection and a variety of spells.

About resilience : Stoneskin made it so he could take like ten hit, and ten hit with his armor was quite a lot. Unless you dispelled it of course.
So yeah, I agree, Firkraag didn't need more hp. he just needed resistance against almost anything you could do to him, and the ability to two shot almost any party member.

I dunno about the HP bloat thing. If Larian can get closer to BG2 , I'd say yes, anytime, any day. So maybe yeah, less HP bloat, more defensive ability like stoneskin and what not. But since the levels of the character are low, its not like they can use buff and defensive spell yet . After all, you started BG2 at lv 7/8. And baldurs gate 1 was like, much more deadly and random . One critical / magic missile basically could kill anyone, you or enemy , during the first level.
Also, the HP scaled pretty quickly in baldurs gate 1 , contrary to the second. In BG1, you earned like 6 to 14hp every level, ending in 120 HP Khalid at the end of the expansion (durlag tower).

Barrels, pure and simple. They expect you to cheese everything with exploding barrels so had to pump up the hit points.

I an playing a D&D game. I wanna lethal spells and weapons. Not lethal barrels.

If Larian homebew or someone mods a "create barrel" spell into the game, is would be the most OP spell in the game...



And can die in two rounds to my necromancer. He is tough not cuz he has a lot of HP... I know cuz I soloed it as a necromancer some time ago.



By putting in a sequencer/contigency two lower resist + a greater malison, you can reduce up to 60% of enemy MR and make him deal a save vs spell at -8 penalty(-4 from malison + -2 from necromancer specialization + -2 from FoD spell itself), so, against Firkraag, the Red Dragon, the malison has a 95% chance of sticking. 65% chance of Firkraag failing his save against the FoD if the malison is on, 45% if it isn't. Combined, that's a 64% chance of failing his save. Then it's 95% to beat the remaining magic resistance with the FoD, for an overall 60.8% chance of the two-round kill. If you try to kill the same enemy using damaging spells, would take far more time on LoB with far less chance of success.



Yep... Gimmicky fights.

Cuz an spider failing from 5m takes more damage than being hit in the eye by a heavy crossbow bolt...

PoE2 has some mega boss who has 16k hp, which I feel is extremely stupid design.

So what your saying is you want ToEE, and not BG3. Cool they made that game if you didn't know, it's for 3.5 edition not 5e. Furthermore it seems like you simply have a spider probably I can take care of that. Then there is all that with Firkaag. So they pretty much made him near invincible with all that, and you were fine with that? I could quote you what all is wrong with that many things on one monster but I'm not going to. It's not (kept coming out it' snot) the game we are giving feedback on, or even the edition. Still it is good to be able to refrence things. So here goes.

Stoneskin on spider makes no sense. Immunity to backstab (spiders supposedly can see in many directions. Unsure of this may be untrue.) spider caster haste, spiders can cast magic, uh no. Spider that big having high AC no it's size alone, the inability to wear armor. Sure it's chitin can count as armor, maybe factor in it's dex. Would have to look up it's dex. Then subtract for size vs party. May bump it a couple higher. I'll need to look at it to see. Think it's AC was 13. It already has incredible attack damage (one shotting party members. With it's rage/haste it gets the 2 for 1 deal) Aoe it has that with it's long range poison spit. No buffet but it does have little ones to come to it's aid. No spells except for it's ethereal jaunt, no invisibility detection unless your own it's web. No backstab immunity though it could use it honestly.

In my book, I'd much prefer the spider. I'd be annoyed at the abuse of DM powers that created Firkraag, who appears to be near invincible. Were as the spider makes sense.

On to hp amount you factor in what it doesn't have compared to Firkaag stoneskin, spells, immunities, invunerabilities, aoe to outright kill one party member instead of slowly weakening them with poison, magic resist. Instead it has health, ethereal jaunt, some easily smashed babies, and 1 or 2 mid level underlings. Thinking we need to still give that spider something to beef it up compared to Firkaag. maybe stoneskin. Because if you do the math Firkaag had more hp through his resistances, his immunities, his stone skin then the spider does. More attacks do to his having spells, aoe's, buffet. Then there is fact you can send it tumbling if you break it's web.

I know your love for ToEE seems to have blinded you to those facts. Backstab immunity means no extra damage from your rogue, invisibilty detection shoots down one tactic completely, stone skin increases his armor that you said was already high to begin with. also doesn't it halve bludgeoning/piercing/slashing damage? (unsure figured I'd ask) haste meaning multipule attacks/spells per turn, resist to magic so your mage, is just about useless so factor in any damage he'd be doing into total FirFir hp, and the previously mention sneak attack from your rogue. Then factor in any damage he avoids when he sends you flying across the room, with haste that could well be every round. (ignore this if you can get in close in that turn with him again. or equivelent amount of time.) Which unsure if ToEE is turn based or not. If it isn't just adds irrevelance to it since your moves are more hampered in turn based then other forms.

I counted in that area 1 goblin in that area with no wait guts didn't have 50 hp, that was the half orc warrior that had 50. The drow as well was close. Zhents have around 30 roughly. Again though difference of 3.5 and 5e about the amount of hitpoints they should or should not have. Several goblins had between 8 and 15. So wheres all the other 50's at? I'll look more.

Dude Firkaag is from bg2 not ToEE.

@dune

Ahh, my bad he keeps talking about ToEE. assumption on my part, unless he was also in ToEE. it's been forever since I played BG2.

This will gonna be length, there are a lot to awnser



Nope. I wanna BG3. I only mentioned ToEE cuz is a TB low level game like BG3. But BG2 is IMO better.




Did you read my post??? I literally made an strategy capable of soloing him in 2 rounds on LoB difficulty with about 60% success chance.




I prefer to fight enemies which has high AC, high mobility, good AI, a lot of things to consider than just an "bullet sponge"




Wrong. Stoneskin negate blows on 2e, gives 10/5 on 3/.5e and on 5e is very lackluster "This spell turns the flesh of a willing creature you touch as hard as stone. Until the spell ends, the target has resistance to nonmagical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage." https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Stoneskin#content

Know what else the spider lacked that Firkraag had? A group of 6 level 15+, well geared characters attacking him. I still argue that facing a group of 4 level 3/4 characters, other more creative methods can be used to make it a quality fight than just bloating its hp.

[quote]

Nope. I wanna BG3. I only mentioned ToEE cuz is a TB low level game like BG3. But BG2 is IMO better.
[quote]


I do as well, I've actually forgotten most of BG2 do to me not being impressed with it overall.

[quote]
Then there is all that with Firkaag. So they pretty much made him near invincible with all that
Did you read my post??? I literally made an strategy capable of soloing him in 2 rounds on LoB difficulty with about 60% success chance.
[quote]

Honestly my mind went blank with some of the big words you used. lack of sleep, and lack of technical jargon. It happens and I did read where you did whatever to allow you to do it 60% of the time. If you want shoot me a pm explaining all that in simpler terms. Small words would be appreciated.

[quote]
On to hp amount you factor in what it doesn't have compared to Firkaag stoneskin, spells, immunities, invunerabilities, aoe to outright kill one party member instead of slowly weakening them with poison
I prefer to fight enemies which has high AC, high mobility, good AI, a lot of things to consider than just an "bullet sponge"
[quote]

Understandable but theres not much you can do with a giant spider. It's a giant spider, so you bump it's hp up. even then she's really a pushover. She does have mobility, her AI needs improving she spent to much time close to me, while the mid levels phased in and out as much as possible. Might be different for others, but my two, three fights she was always to close. Then again as someone said Phases spiders are spose to be melee online.

[quote]
Wrong. Stoneskin negate blows on 2e, gives 10/5 on 3/.5e and on 5e is very lackluster "This spell turns the flesh of a willing creature you touch as hard as stone. Until the spell ends, the target has resistance to nonmagical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage." https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Stoneskin#content
[quote]

Ahh, yeah. Still it may be lacklaster but at such low levels your not really going 'ham' with magic. It's mostly mundane, and spiders can't cast. So it effectively doubles your hp for a time. Anything that hits and is negated means you should count each up as that amount of hp. to figure it all into an equation. though you had a point with dispel to end it. Curious did it with his magic resistance even affect him?

ugg my quote fu is garbage. any help would be appreciated lol

It's a spider. Sure you could go the abomination route if you wanted, grant it stone skin like property dropping it's hp down to 50 which would still be like around a 100. unless your group is continually doing magic damage. Many haven't grabbed much in the way of magical gear when you come across her.

If it was actually an intelligent creature with the ability to cast spells and stuff then it would open the doors far more, then it being a spider. especially a spider thats a side quest that you can do if you want or you can skip it.

The closing tag needs "/quote" instead of "quote"

I'm not sure, honestly. But even the 5e HP levels of gods are pretty insane.

All gods (and their avatars) possess divine ranks (DR). Quasi-deities, which includes all avatars, demigods, titans, and vestiges as well as the likes of True Dragon Ascendants, have a DR of 0. Stronger deities have higher DR, with powerfule greater deities having a DR of upto 20, and supreme deities (like Ao) going even beyond that. Letting aside all additional bonuses and spells gods get in combat, let us look at raw HP numbers.
1. All gods get max HP for all their hit dice. And gods usually have a character level in the range 30-50 split between various classes. So that's already hundreds of HP. Considering a god with only d8 classes, that's 240-400 HP.
2. HP bonus from constitution modifiers is multiplied by (DR+1).
3. All gods have a minimum of 17 and a maximum of 30 to all stats, with higher DR gods getting massive ASIs. For a powerful greater deity with DR 20, we can assume they get 30 CON, giving them an HP bonus of 210.
That means a powerful greater deity with only rogue-like classes probably ends up with around 610 HP.

Of course, gods are also immune to most non-magical damage. Gods with a DR of at least 1 are also resistant to ALL forms of damage.

TLDR: it would be a slug fest, if you could last that long despite all the other feats and advantages deities get (such as a speed bonus of 15-50 ft depending on DR).

+1. That’s all.

Really? One of my biggest complaints for the 5e monster manual is how few hitpoints everything has relative to the amount of damage players do

A level 10 party can kill most CR10 monsters in a single round. A level 9 hexblade sharpshooter can do over 100 damage with a single arrow

The queen spider is not balanced for a fourth level party, by the way, it's closer to a young red dragon in CR than it is to a Giant Spider

but...yeah... don't use 2e hp values to make any judgements, this isn't 2e. A 5th level party has ABSOLUTLEY no problem chewing through 138hp, and you should really be 5th before fighting the Spider Queen Fight (literally nothing compels you to battle it at level 3-4, you can just go past it) Let me lay out ONE good round (assuming the game is finished):

- Laezel uses Great Weapon master to attack four times (Action surge.) Statistically, she'll miss twice, so she uses Precision Attack to hit. She uses Menacing Attack on the two that already hit.
She deals on average 89 points of damage if all four hit (really! do the math yourself, I might be wrong cuz its 3:26am, but it sounds right to me. 2d6+3+2d6+3+2d6+3+2d6+3+1d8+1d8+10+10+10+10)
- Wyll uses hex on the spider and casts Scorching Ray at third level, dealing 12d6 points of damage, averaging out to 42 damage (assuming they leave in 2x casts in one turn)
-Wyll's imp stabs the Spider Queen for 5 points of damage, killing her
- Gael uses Fireball to destroy minions
- Shadowheart casts Spirit Guardians, huddling around the party, to deal 14 damage to anything that comes within 15 feet of the party and slow its movement to a crawl

Yes this is, statistically, a VERY good round, but in just ONE good round, with two party members not doing anything to the spider queen, they've killed it

The reason I say 5th level is that it seems to me like the spider queen fight is a pretty well balanced encounter for a 5th level party

They are still too weak compared to old edition deities. 2e only had rules for avatars, true deities was above game rules and 3.5e have a lot of nasty abilities to deities. Like immunity to any weapon bellow +5 and the possibility to cast antimagical field which doesn't affect the God himself while he can cast disjunction on the party and make all of his epic gear mundane and spells worthless. Not mentioning that due all energy from his followers, they allways roll the best possible result for everything. And even if you somehow managed to make then lose a lot of HP, they can teleport to their divine realm where they are near omnipotent and are protected by ludicrous powerful followers.

This talking about a general deity. Good lucky resisting an single wail of the Banshee from an deity like Myrkul... IDK his stats but believe that the DC to resits... Assuming 30 INT and divine rank = 16 (lowest of an greater deity), his DC would probably be > 10 + 10 ( int ) + 16 (divine rank ) + 3 (he probably has at least epic spell focus necromancy) + 9 (spell level) = 48. The FORT save of an CR 19 ancient red dragon on 3.5e is 22, so if the ancient red dragon rolls 19, he only gets 41 vs the 48 of this ultra low estimate..

But not even Gods, archdevils like Mephistopheles on 3.5e had a lot of nasty DC 30+ spells to resist.

NOTE : Fort save on 3.5e can be translated to CON save on 5e.

Without the help of another God, is near impossible to kill an God, even with a 12 party sized on epic level.

Tiamat on 5e is weaker than most non deity ancient dragons dragons on 2e...



CR are too "inflated" on 5e. Monsters who are CR 10 should probably be CR 6 or 7 in other editions. And you rarely fight a single creature alone. You generally fight at least a squad of 5+.

And you are looking with only to the damage with high rolls and crits.

Did you played BG2? 3 horrid Wilting in a chain contingency can be cast in a instant and the 3 would deal 60d8 damage in a huge area, yes, 3*20d8 ( https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Abi-Dalzim%27s_Horrid_Wilting ). On 5e, it deals only 12d8 necrotic damage. Which means that the AVERAGE 20d8 damage from 2e(90) is almost the same of the max damage of the 5e spell(96)

First off: comparing HP between Editions seems to be a rather pointless exercise.

But it is right that some enemies seem to have more HP/Stats/Abilities than they have in the MM. Which is weird for the usual grunts running around. A boss with more HP and stuff they can do is fine tho.

My point is that 5e already has a big hp bloat. No need to inflate even more. 5e is the second edition with hp bloat, losing only to 4e. And an "boss" should be hard not cuz he is a sponge, but cuz he has interesting abilities, spells, traps, allies, tactics, AI, etc.

While i generally agree, i think the high health pools of some opponents are necessary due to design flaws that took place before.
On the one hand because of surface and status effect DoTs that are way stronger compared to regular DnD. And on the other hand due to the absurd hit rates. In BGIII you rarely have a hit chance under 85% due to high ground and backstab. Your avarage damage is at least 2 times of the damage you could achieve in regular DnD5e, especially if you take into account crazy stuff like shoving in a bonus action.
If we look at generic DnD5e: Just pick the Bandit captain. That is a NPC that gets thrown at you by at least 1 campaign as level1 bossfight. he has 65 HP. Now consider you are 3 levels higher than that facing the spider + you got like a 100% damage boost compared to regular 5e.... The Monsters need such a large health pool.

Unfortunate, but i think the "big health pool" issue is a symptome, not a desease. ´
If it had 80 health i would laugh it away in 1 turn perhaps 2.

Don't know so much about the balance in older editions but the absolute numbers are pretty much irrelevant, as long as the relative numbers are somewhere comparable. Does not matter if the boss has 10hp and I do 1 dmg per round or he has 1000hp and I do 100dmg per round.

Anyway: I agree that Larian should put more trust into the CR balance, that is already there and just builds appropriate encounters with them.

They do indeed matter, because in all RPGs (at least all i ever played and its a lot), output and input do not scale in the same speed. Does not matter weather its DnD, Pathfinder, Skyrim or anything. The higher the performance gets, the shorter and deadlier the fights are. Thats because of stacking synergies. Everyone remembers Level 1-2 fights in TTRPGs that took like 15 rounds and were pretty close. As the PCs are getting stronger, the fights will shorten significantly, since the PCs can more effectivly focus and CC enemies down.
Due to the highly increased performance of both PC and NPC in BG3, the low level fights are already affected by this effect. Fast, short and deadly for either side.
Most people will have beaten EA without any major problems, so i do not think the game is too hard. But it is less exiting in terms of combat. For the most part, after the seeing how the first round of combat goes, you generally already know that you have won or lost, since you either managed to achieve your win condition or you didnt and be doomed.

The thrill of finally hitting that little bastard goblin who kept evading you and dealing enough damage to crush it is one of the most satisfying parts of tabletop. I want it in BG3. Please don't bloat hp.

Maybe you misunderstood me: I am talking relative HP at any given level. Progression balance is another thing, but OP was having problems with the fact that a god in BG1 or 2 had 150 absolute HP and now a spider has 150 absolute HP. That in and off itself has no meaning whatsoever and its pointless to compare 2 editions in that way.

The relative power is important, not what number is representing it.

In an interview with Swen from last year he argued that you'd missed a lot in D&D, which according to him wouldn't be very fun in a video game.

Maybe reducing some of the AC whilst pumping HP to make up for that has been done with that in mind in parts too.

It has been discussed a lot that you can't do that without messing up the balance elsewhere. Not all attacks target AC. Anything that attacks saves or HP directly gets nerfed when you lower AC's.

Actually is the opposite. An warlock with an Eldritch Blast can OHK another warlock with low con at lv 1 with good rolls. But at lv 20, an warlock can sustain multiple critical hits from another lv 20 warlock without any problem.



The best CRPG's are this RPG's where enemies dodge, armor deflect blows, hit enemies are hard but each hit deals a lot of damage. JNobody deserve everything being an bullet sponge.

By the DMG, 138 HP with AC of 15 is squarely in CR 4. Assuming "level" is "CR", if the AC is particularly low, that could be defensive CR 4 in practice. That is supposed to be balanced with the offensive CR, which for CR 4 is 27–32 damage per round -- which as I recall was about right for the phase spider matriarch.

So, eh — it doesn't seem like particular bloat to me.

The issue is that it has been done inconsistently. Some HP and AC values are consistent with that from 5e, but not all. Enemy HP is up and AC is down, but spell damage for spells which are balanced based on enemy saving throws have not had their values adjusted, which makes them underwhelming compared to attack-roll spells (because saving throws are the same).

With all the advantages, and extra damage sources in the game. I'm still not having a problem killing the high HP mobs. Heck there is an amulet that doubles the damage of magic missile. Honestly even with the HP inflation, and going into fights in non strategic positions it's easy with optimal builds to ruin this game. I think it's because of all the liberties taken with the 5e combat system, and the insane items in the game. Currently my level 4 wizzard has 10 str, 14 dex, 16 stam, 18 int 14 wis 14 char. Combine that with 21 ac all self casted buffs, and a spell level 1 spell that does 6d4 +3 damage, or level 2 8d4 + 4 damage, and can't miss. I melt everything, and take very little damage. Not to mention I can heal, give my group +5 max hp permanent, and cast any spell I can find.

All in all I don't think the balance is there yet. Some things are really op. That not including exploits, or bugs in the game just optimal building for a wizzard.

Yeah yeah... if you read my whole post, you would have understood that I was saying exactly the same thing. My warrior One shot firkraag with vorpal blade, can always find better way to cheese the game.

note I'm still looking for a goblin with 50 hp. haven't found one yet are they in goblin camp? Even one with a higher hp then one of the ogres, seems to be goose chase, and I only chase owlbears!
I also only used witchbolt and the spider still went down like a hooker on a friday night.
So even with the ass ton of hp, she isn't well balanced, and needs something more. Yes she did drop 2 of my people with one shot, but they were lvl 3. Novices, Sharp Eyed, and Brawlers are all level three. Ragzlin is level 3 or 4, and Minthara is level 5. My party at level 3 had between 20 - 30 hp. Most goblins fell nearly in one hit by 3 out of 4 of my party. Cleric was used for melee, and healing. Used hex 2x once on Minthara, and Guts, because I find guts to be annoying with all the AC, mirror image, and things used on her.

Novice Greet = 10
Novice Sheek = 12
Dror Ragzlin = 50
novice muzul = 15
Sharp-eyed Azak = 13
Novice Mrak = 15
Brawler Gurd = 17
Sharp eyed Zami = 15
Novice Klak = 15
Priestess guts = 30 something her body is currently hidden
Zurga goblin boss = 25
Rozzack goblin boss = 24
Minthara lv 5 cleric = 57
Skurt goblin boss = 35
Sharp eye Neem = 15
SE Eef = 15
Brawler Gurd = 17
Novice Kagran = 6
Novice cry = 15
Novice husk 17
Novice Gnar = 12

Yep.

It's fine that named goblins are the "tough" level 2 ones that stand out.

But where's all the fodder with 6hp? Make Shatter feel powerful.

Yeah. Please no HP bloat across the board.

Stick the 5e Monster Manual Larian. Stick to 5e game mechanics.

Do this and you will win BG3 with your D&D and fans.

The greatest problem is " I think it's because of all the liberties taken with the 5e combat system, and the insane items in the game."

The problem with this type of itemization is, what about classes who can't find those items?

And note that D&D is great cuz your power is in your char, not on stat stickie gear.



If you got a Vorpal sword on chapter 2, or you are extremely lucky or good. Either way, vorpal weapons can OHK powerful enemies. But deal with his ludicrous good AC, hit him and then trigger the vorpal effect is extremely unlikely...

It's a Larian feature just like exploding everything.

Create barrel cantrip when?

Soon enough my brethren, soon enough.

looool. QFT.

Just imagine

Cantrip = Create barrel
1 level spell = Create oil barrel
2 level spell = Create exploding barrel

Best spells ever.

Hmm, isn't part of the reason that spider has lots of health because you can make it take about a third of its health in damage from destroying the webbing it's standing on and having it take fall damage?

When I fought ti with my friend, we made sure to do that and it went reasonably well. I assume if you were baller you could run onto the central webbing, making him come attack you there, slowfall yourself before destroying the webbing and get a full kill along with a casual fall into the underdark. (haven't tried that yet because my party was just a fighter and ranger on that run)

Again, gimmicky boss and a spider taking more damage from failing from 5m than taking an heavy arbalest shot in the head makes zero sense...

Who said you had to fight him in chapter 2 ? and why are you trying to hard to compete on the best way to kill a boss in a 20 years old game?

Because this 20 yo game is the best RPG ever made. BG3 is good? Yes. Is good as BG2? Nope. The unique aspect which seems superior to BG2 is enemy AI.

You call it bloat some enemies are "bloated" You mean their health is higher than the avg roll on their monster sheet? Take the owlbear, in game its 81 hp but lost a few points, Sheet says 7d10+21 for health and avg at 59, CR 3. If the DM rolled for health and or raised the health, would you even know? Or rather should you even know as a player?

Also keep in mind that most encounters don't last that long/dont have many enemies in 5e. What you should be worried about are the two 32 + unit encounters in BG3.

THE ONLY MONSTER, that i have encountered, THAT DOES NOT CONFORM TO THE HEALTH ON THE MM are the 2 SPECTATORS those are super bloated.

Also in the case of the goblins and other NPC humonids, it seems like larian decided to have them use hit die from their classes and levels. So really you are fighting things that have leveled.


Also phase spider matriarch:

This same boss you can actually deal 1/3 total hp per round as a caster/ranged? Roughly 46 hp per round until spider rages, then its about 2 rounds to put it down, without haste. Please understand that larian does reward you for resolving fights in abnormal ways. As do some DMs.



For those having issues, keep in mind that all classes are actually viable, their subs might be better than others however.


Evil playthrough ran:

Eldritch knight: 22 ac buffed (tyrs protection), relied on cantrips at range MM 1d4+1 x3 (9dmg avg)when needed, melee in short. Never died. (extremely reliable for choke points) Super tank. Can have 22ac with resistance to blud/slash/pierce. Most of the time was spent pushing foes around and grouping them up, as well as soaking all the hits and melee dmg 1d8+5 with poison 1d4 (11 avg dmg per round)(lets face it, even if she isnt an eldritch knight, she still will have 22 buffed ac)

Astarion thief: 16 ac, ranged when needed 1d8+5 plus 1d4 plus 2d6 sneak (avg 14 per roundish), melee when burst needed 1d6+5 1d4 2d6 (avg 13 ish) + bonus actions 1d4+5 1d4 x1 since 1 usually missed (avg 11 dmg) (soloed many encounters because sneak attack / stealth with poison op) If you are in a bind (wyvern poison can save the day at an extra 7d6 21 dmg avg) I also had him carry a Sussacc (magic drain flower)...what is more mage killing than no magic casting while a rogue smashing your backside in? Granted this only worked in certain areas and had minimal use haha.

Gale (alive and dead): 15 ac with mage armor: high damage dealer, spell of choice MM2 1d4+1 x 4 (12dmg avg), used fog cloud when gale surrounded, hardly died. Gale was sacrificed at certain choke points in 1st playthrough, since dead Gale is kinda OP. Do note that GALE CANT SEE TO SAVE HIS LIFE IN THE DARK and relying on dancing lights, light, or darkvision from a spell is okay at best. MM is pure gold because it hits 100% unless you are like me and forget to check if the path is obstructed.

PC Light cleric: 21 Ac buffed (absolute's protection) . Used a bonus action to cast heal once, maybe twice in the whole run. Healing as an action is a joke (in this game, not 5e lets get that straight), use items and food to heal then use your action to do some damage. Had decent dmg through longbow prof, BANE all day with casting and gloves of absolute. 1d8+4 (8 dmg avg) if not casting bane/FF or guiding bolt if comfortable.

This was a quicker and easier run through than my first. Do note that i used a good deal of items to speed things along after eveyrone ganged up on Zae. Nothing beats Caustic brine explosions if you want aoe dmg, until you get fireball that is.

Also keep mind that surface damage is a DEX savethrow. Your characters keep failing them, either cast Aid pre fight to mitigate, get higher dex, get prof, or endure them and give them a piece of their own medicine 10fold.



Honestly though, many some fights were already nerfed. (ahem hooked horrors)

Oh and who would have know most magic constructs dont work when magic is nullified? This is why items in game are ACTUALLY OP if you use them in certain ways.

The HP creep has been across all editions of D&D and AD&D. In OD&D, fighting-men got d8 hit dice, same in "basic" D&D and AD&D 1e. In AD&D 2e, Warriors got d10 hit dice. In D&D 3e/3.5e fighters got d12 hit dice. In D&D 4e, they got 12 HP per level.

Weapons saw a similar power creep with the hardest hitting weapon in basic D&D doing 1d10 damage, in AD&D 2e it's 2d6 damage. In newer editions, weapons can go higher, sometimes much higher.

In AD&D 1e, the creature with the most hit points (In Deities and Demigods) had 400 HP. In D&D 4e, it was 1500 HP (Bahamut iirc).

There's also the difference in maximum level. Basic D&D had a max level of 36. AD&D 1e and 2e had a soft limit of 20 levels (though it was possible to keep going and one adventure was even published for level 100). D&D 3e had a limit of 20 levels unless you used the Epic Level Handbook, which extended it to 40 levels. D&D 4e had 30 levels. D&D 5e has dialed the level limit back down to 20 levels.

All that aside, there's also magic resistance in AD&D. Sure, in AD&D you could smack Asmodeus with a 20d6 fireball, but he had 95% magic resistance (so on a 94 or lower on d00, the spell failed). and even if you got past that, he was immune to fire, but assume you somehow negated that (dunno how, maybe with wish?), he was also immune to spells of lower than 5th level. He only needed 200 HP because your mage was 95% useless at that level. You also better have a good sword because most stuff is immune to non-magical weapons at high level.

You really can't compare game math across editions. It doesn't translate neatly. It's even less neat when trying to translate between the "classic" systems from TSR which were largely compatible and used similar math and the "modern" systems of WotC. They may as well be totally different games from a mechanical perspective.

Again totally agree the HP bloat is too damn high..

HP bloat is fine.
Don't hear you crying that your characters automatically get max hp every level.
This game is too easy as it is.

Never mind you don't even understand what you're asking for,
Without HP you'll have to either lower hit-chance to keep the same level of combat, meaning that even more of your attacks would be annoying misses, which is not fun for anyone, or you have to add more enemy creatures to every encounter, and the whole thing lurches very fast off-balance, since more creatures means more attacks on you, meaning instead of fun well calculated fights u have a horde fight on ur hands every time and it just becomes silly.

After playing Solasta I remember again how satisfying it is to drop 3 goblins hiding behind cover with Sleep. The Wizard has a purpose other than spamming fire surfaces from high ground.

Did Larian nerf Sleep's duration as well? It hits only one goblin and it wakes up right away.

Goblins have 7HP for a reason. You can sometimes one hit them, because they are the weakest minions. But not on a weak hit. 7 is a good number.

I hate Larian's HP bloated goblins who all have a name and an arsenal of exploding fire / acid / knockback arrows. I just want a horde of nameless grunts to CC with spells and carve a path through with Fighters, as it should be.

And the females look so cute with their hair-dos and british accents it feels like they are people much more than monsters. I don't want a moral conflict when killing goblins! That's what the Tieflings are for.

Characters don't get max hp every level...???

The problem is that HP bloat (combined with only AC reduction) has other consequences, like making spells that affect HP (sleep) or spells against Saves (sacred flame) suck. I'd be much more fine with HP increase if they decreased AC and enemy Saving Throws and proportionally buffed spells like Sleep. But then you run into the problem of "Okay, sleep is now too powerful against the normal-HP players, which means player HP has to increase, which means now enemies need to be buffed.....etc, etc.

Simple solution. Don't buff HP. Just reduce enemy AC and ST on lower difficulties. This allows players to hit often on easier difficulties (and thus have more fun) but doesn't have a cascading chain of effects.