Larian Studios
Okay, I've looked up 'Ray of Frost' in the PHB for 5th Edition, and it's NOT supposed to make an icy patch on the ground. It's strictly cold damage.

Ground effects were an interesting mechanic in DoS2, but lay off it already for BG3. It's not needed, and it's making some fights harder than they should be.

And on Page 195 of the PHB, it specifically says that Shoving a creature is an Attack action, not a bonus action. Which explains why it seems so overpowered in BG3.

Just my two copper pieces. laugh

The shove distance is also increased in BG3, and fall damage seems to be much higher.

But res tassured there are many people making those same complaints. smile
Using ray of frost to free water is something that in dnd would in most cases be left up to dm interpretation in heavier rp games most dms would let something like that apply just most players for games do not think outside the box. The idea behind the game was to make it similar to dnd where thinking outside the box is encouraged. Thus several mechanics. Not just ray of frost where this could be used.
Originally Posted by acatlas
Using ray of frost to free water is something that in dnd would in most cases be left up to dm interpretation in heavier rp games most dms would let something like that apply just most players for games do not think outside the box. The idea behind the game was to make it similar to dnd where thinking outside the box is encouraged. Thus several mechanics. Not just ray of frost where this could be used.


However, I'm sure most DM's would object to "The spell freezes the gallons of blood which had spilled from the target after it took that 1 point of slashing damage".
I love the ground effects. I've been trying to figure out why people hate them so much. If they were removed I think I'd stop playing this game because it'd be so boring.
No. They don’t need changes
Originally Posted by acatlas
Using ray of frost to free water is something that in dnd would in most cases be left up to dm interpretation in heavier rp games most dms would let something like that apply just most players for games do not think outside the box. The idea behind the game was to make it similar to dnd where thinking outside the box is encouraged. Thus several mechanics. Not just ray of frost where this could be used.


That should really be the Shape Water cantrip for freezing water. Create Bonfire for creating a patch of fire. If they would just use the rules as written, they could have their surface effects. The attack cantrips are really just that, attacks, Pretty much so that Wizards don't need to carry around crossbows.
Originally Posted by eikona
I love the ground effects. I've been trying to figure out why people hate them so much. If they were removed I think I'd stop playing this game because it'd be so boring.


It's because the game is trying to use Hit points, Armor Class, and Spell Slots from D&D 5e, which is based around the idea of attrition of health and other resources over encounters, and it's also using massive AoE attacks in every battle, unresistable status effects, surface damage, and high ground advantage from D:OS 2, which is based around the idea of being fully healed and fully charged for each encounter.

The two systems clash when used together. If Larian really wants to use AoE's, unresistable status effects, surfaces, and high ground advantage, it also has to change the parts which are designed based on a system which doesn't have those.


EDIT: There's more. Some spells target AC, other spells require the target to make saving throws. The spells which target AC are easier to hit because of lowered monster AC. Saving throws have not been altered. This means spells which require saving throws have not been rebalanced and are now underwhelming to use and are not effective. See Sacred Flame, Color Spray, Sleep - all of those feel very bad to use because they're much more ineffective than they should be.

Other spells are powerful because they require Concentration to be effective. Concentration is a saving throw. Saving throws are much easier to fail when there is unresistable, no-saving-throw-to-avoid damage and AoE attacks and explosions all over the place. This makes concentration spells less effective, AND LESS FUN TO USE.
Originally Posted by acatlas
Using ray of frost to free water is something that in dnd would in most cases be left up to dm interpretation in heavier rp games most dms would let something like that apply just most players for games do not think outside the box. The idea behind the game was to make it similar to dnd where thinking outside the box is encouraged. Thus several mechanics. Not just ray of frost where this could be used.

I would leave this in too.

But I would take a look at how much blood is spilled from every low damage attack. It has been exaggerated in BG3 just so you have more surfaces to manipulate.

You should have to make a choice between A) Hit creature as in PhB, only damage no surface OR B) Target the terrain under the opponent to make them roll Acrobatics or fall prone. No damage AND surface, that's just overpowering the cantrip.

And I would make sure the area frozen by a cantrip is small enough to not turn into AoE i.e. only under a single creature. There are more powerful spells that cost a spell slot and can manipulate larger areas. Burning Hands, Sleet Storm
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by eikona
I love the ground effects. I've been trying to figure out why people hate them so much. If they were removed I think I'd stop playing this game because it'd be so boring.


It's because the game is trying to use Hit points, Armor Class, and Spell Slots from D&D 5e, which is based around the idea of attrition of health and other resources over encounters, and it's also using massive AoE attacks in every battle, unresistable status effects, surface damage, and high ground advantage from D:OS 2, which is based around the idea of being fully healed and fully charged for each encounter.

The two systems clash when used together. If Larian really wants to use AoE's, unresistable status effects, surfaces, and high ground advantage, it also has to change the parts which are designed based on a system which doesn't have those.


I see this complaint a lot but I've yet to hear a good explanation for why it's actually a bad idea beyond "5e handles it this way instead". There's nothing special about hp, ac, and vancian spellcasting that gets ruined by BG3's implentation of the rules. Numbers can be tuned to account for the added functionalities of some spells and the rest is just adjusting available resources. It's bizarre that "It's not the same as it is in 5e" is a reply to "I find it fun".
Originally Posted by Sunfly
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by eikona
I love the ground effects. I've been trying to figure out why people hate them so much. If they were removed I think I'd stop playing this game because it'd be so boring.


It's because the game is trying to use Hit points, Armor Class, and Spell Slots from D&D 5e, which is based around the idea of attrition of health and other resources over encounters, and it's also using massive AoE attacks in every battle, unresistable status effects, surface damage, and high ground advantage from D:OS 2, which is based around the idea of being fully healed and fully charged for each encounter.

The two systems clash when used together. If Larian really wants to use AoE's, unresistable status effects, surfaces, and high ground advantage, it also has to change the parts which are designed based on a system which doesn't have those.


I see this complaint a lot but I've yet to hear a good explanation for why it's actually a bad idea beyond "5e handles it this way instead". There's nothing special about hp, ac, and vancian spellcasting that gets ruined by BG3's implentation of the rules. Numbers can be tuned to account for the added functionalities of some spells and the rest is just adjusting available resources. It's bizarre that "It's not the same as it is in 5e" is a reply to "I find it fun".


And they do tune the numbers to account for the added functionalities...on the monsters. Somehow my 8 HP wizard just doesn't feel "tuned" to account for unblockable fire damage that can't be avoided because the entire fucking floor is on fire for the next 50 turns. Nobody says to completely remove ground effects, at least not for the most part. Just tone them down already, not literally every single elemental spell in the game should create a patch of ice or fire
Played again BG2. Read throuh D&D2. Half of all the spells dont match, discriptions are different ect ect....
But somehow playing BG2 was an incredible experience, yet again. It FELT d&d.
BG3 doesnt have to be letter by letter a 5e game.
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Played again BG2. Read throuh D&D2. Half of all the spells dont match, discriptions are different ect ect....
But somehow playing BG2 was an incredible experience, yet again. It FELT d&d.
BG3 doesnt have to be letter by letter a 5e game.


Engine limitations, but some were quite awesome like spell sequencer.
Some changes are good, like False Life giving a set temporary HP number or Armor of Agathys lasting until the next long rest.

Picking through which are good and which aren't will be tough however...
Originally Posted by Pupito
Originally Posted by Sunfly
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by eikona
I love the ground effects. I've been trying to figure out why people hate them so much. If they were removed I think I'd stop playing this game because it'd be so boring.


It's because the game is trying to use Hit points, Armor Class, and Spell Slots from D&D 5e, which is based around the idea of attrition of health and other resources over encounters, and it's also using massive AoE attacks in every battle, unresistable status effects, surface damage, and high ground advantage from D:OS 2, which is based around the idea of being fully healed and fully charged for each encounter.

The two systems clash when used together. If Larian really wants to use AoE's, unresistable status effects, surfaces, and high ground advantage, it also has to change the parts which are designed based on a system which doesn't have those.


I see this complaint a lot but I've yet to hear a good explanation for why it's actually a bad idea beyond "5e handles it this way instead". There's nothing special about hp, ac, and vancian spellcasting that gets ruined by BG3's implentation of the rules. Numbers can be tuned to account for the added functionalities of some spells and the rest is just adjusting available resources. It's bizarre that "It's not the same as it is in 5e" is a reply to "I find it fun".


And they do tune the numbers to account for the added functionalities...on the monsters. Somehow my 8 HP wizard just doesn't feel "tuned" to account for unblockable fire damage that can't be avoided because the entire fucking floor is on fire for the next 50 turns. Nobody says to completely remove ground effects, at least not for the most part. Just tone them down already, not literally every single elemental spell in the game should create a patch of ice or fire


Sounds like you need to work on positioning your wizard tbh.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize paid $60 to play "the floor is lava", I thought it was for Baldur's Gate 3, a D&D 5e game. Next time I'll just leave my entire party sitting on a rock somewhere while I go make a snack and hope the entire world is no longer on fire by the time I come back. If only I had known that this game required hour long breaks after every combat to wait for all the fire to go out.
As an avid DOS player I have no problem with surfaces and kinda know how to play around them but sometimes the differences in outcomes from D&D5e to BG3 are staggering.

I mean, a goblin can try to throw an alchemical fire flask at me, roll a CRITICAL MISS and it still will set the ground around me on fire and make me take like 6 damage + 2 when I try to step out of the flame patch.

Any decent DM would make the flask pop open and pour on the goblin, slip out of his hand and land in the bushes or something to that extent on a critical miss.

In BG3 it still deals full damage. And that's what I have a problem with.
Originally Posted by Sunfly
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by eikona
I love the ground effects. I've been trying to figure out why people hate them so much. If they were removed I think I'd stop playing this game because it'd be so boring.


It's because the game is trying to use Hit points, Armor Class, and Spell Slots from D&D 5e, which is based around the idea of attrition of health and other resources over encounters, and it's also using massive AoE attacks in every battle, unresistable status effects, surface damage, and high ground advantage from D:OS 2, which is based around the idea of being fully healed and fully charged for each encounter.

The two systems clash when used together. If Larian really wants to use AoE's, unresistable status effects, surfaces, and high ground advantage, it also has to change the parts which are designed based on a system which doesn't have those.


I see this complaint a lot but I've yet to hear a good explanation for why it's actually a bad idea beyond "5e handles it this way instead". There's nothing special about hp, ac, and vancian spellcasting that gets ruined by BG3's implentation of the rules. Numbers can be tuned to account for the added functionalities of some spells and the rest is just adjusting available resources. It's bizarre that "It's not the same as it is in 5e" is a reply to "I find it fun".



Seems like you did not read the answer already given to you. Yes, you could balance it around for surface effects and away from 5e. But what is the point of making a 5e game, when you balance away from it? The thing that is special about HP/AC/Spellcasting that gets ruined is: the balance. All those things are balanced around each other and versus balanced encounters. 5e has done a pretty good job there and rebalancing it all again would in the end probably mean we get some kind of DOS:2 balance. Which is fine and fun, but distinctly NOT 5e.

You seem to have very little understanding how 5e works, which is fine, but maybe refrain from making those kind of statements then.
If it missed, and you are not on fire on start of your turn. Jump to dodge floor, you don't have damage then.

And every 10 meter there's floor effect, heroes jump and jump like grasshopper if I don't want to get damage from floor effects, and it feels super non-epic.

DOS2 can have much of floor effects since there's 4 action points (with some traits, and items there's 6AP), and scrolls for everyone (I think non-spell casters wouldn't use scrolls eventually), and there's gap-closer skill to avoid ground effect, and there's nail on shoes makes heroes slipped-immune. BG3 has only one action to deal with burning floor, or non spell-caster must jump like grasshopper if you don't want to get disadvantage of that.

I am really up to total floor effects if there's no much and makes sense like oil and alchole and some wooden object are flammable, ice spells can freeze water. (and it doesn't make slipped every time unlike grease, is just difficult terrain) DND is imaginary world, good DM should allow ground effects on situational circumstance, now BG3 there's fire on cobble stones, ray spell supposed to hit a target hits target and freeze under his/her/its feet and make them prone. It is just too much power to spell casters, and it makes controlling melees less fun in my opinion.
Originally Posted by KingTiki



Seems like you did not read the answer already given to you. Yes, you could balance it around for surface effects and away from 5e. But what is the point of making a 5e game, when you balance away from it? The thing that is special about HP/AC/Spellcasting that gets ruined is: the balance. All those things are balanced around each other and versus balanced encounters. 5e has done a pretty good job there and rebalancing it all again would in the end probably mean we get some kind of DOS:2 balance. Which is fine and fun, but distinctly NOT 5e.

You seem to have very little understanding how 5e works, which is fine, but maybe refrain from making those kind of statements then.


At some point you will have to accept that this isn't a TT game. It's a video game where there will be much more combat. Adjusting it so that the combat is more interesting is possibly the most important thing they do. They also have to adjust for a wide variety of competence on the part of the players- this will also require changing some rules.

I understand wanting the game to reflect 5e as much as possible. I want that, as well. But there will be changes, such as giving characters more mobility options to avoid surfaces. Homebrew is a thing, and you may wish to view BG3 as a 5e homebrew. View the game in it's totality rather than critique each and every rule change, otherwise you're just rules lawyering.
Originally Posted by Dulany67
Originally Posted by KingTiki



Seems like you did not read the answer already given to you. Yes, you could balance it around for surface effects and away from 5e. But what is the point of making a 5e game, when you balance away from it? The thing that is special about HP/AC/Spellcasting that gets ruined is: the balance. All those things are balanced around each other and versus balanced encounters. 5e has done a pretty good job there and rebalancing it all again would in the end probably mean we get some kind of DOS:2 balance. Which is fine and fun, but distinctly NOT 5e.

You seem to have very little understanding how 5e works, which is fine, but maybe refrain from making those kind of statements then.


At some point you will have to accept that this isn't a TT game. It's a video game where there will be much more combat. Adjusting it so that the combat is more interesting is possibly the most important thing they do. They also have to adjust for a wide variety of competence on the part of the players- this will also require changing some rules.

I understand wanting the game to reflect 5e as much as possible. I want that, as well. But there will be changes, such as giving characters more mobility options to avoid surfaces. Homebrew is a thing, and you may wish to view BG3 as a 5e homebrew. View the game in it's totality rather than critique each and every rule change, otherwise you're just rules lawyering.


No problem with having to make adjustments when it comes to making this a PC game. But there are adjustments and there are just bad homebrews. If we are honest 90% of homebrew is utter shite, because people are not thinking straight, but "omg having a heavy armor wizard subclass with access to 9th level spells as their starting ability would be so great" (overexaggeration, but you get the point). Similar I feel that Larian is going hard for their revamping of mechanics like surfaces etc. They make concentration spells basically useless, and those already are a gamble in the normal rules. Just to point out one huge problem.
Concentration needs adjustment, I agree. But surfaces are kind of a core thing to Larian and I doubt they will go away. I also doubt they will change mobility bonus actions because they are necessary to deal with the surfaces. While homebrews may be mostly shite, I expect that when all is said and done, Larian's will not be. But people can disagree.

Personally, I find the effects of acid on the ground and the ability to carry around barrels silly.
Quote
I see this complaint a lot but I've yet to hear a good explanation for why it's actually a bad idea beyond "5e handles it this way instead". There's nothing special about hp, ac, and vancian spellcasting that gets ruined by BG3's implentation of the rules. Numbers can be tuned to account for the added functionalities of some spells and the rest is just adjusting available resources. It's bizarre that "It's not the same as it is in 5e" is a reply to "I find it fun".


Well, since this game supposed to be 5e D&D game, if there's no great fun, or some serious limitation, it should take 5e rules.

It was funny in DOS 1, 2 with ground effects, and it makes sense flammable things can be burned, water can be frozen in table top game. So I don't complain there's some ground effect, not like Larian should remove it entirely. And I hope they don't remove it entirely. Now Let's see DOS 1 ,2 you get many action points, do multiple spells and skills on same time(I can't remember DOS1 perfectly, DOS 2 you get 4AP normally, Lone wolf get some more with 2 characters, glass cannon gives 6AP too, tea and chapter 2 stuff gives +2AP with spending some resources. Which makes easier to get out, and make ground effects, even then there was cool time to spells and skills, and grenades isn't powerful enough compared to spells. You can counter ice floor with nailed shoes easily, there's some kind of blink skill if you go for melee. (Warfare(phoenix dive, and some skill), and Scoundrel(jump, and i can't remember but +2AP skill for some turn)) And there was physical/magical armor to prevent CC and burning effect. DOS1 doesn't have it, it has saving throw (only CC if I remember correctly)


Let's see Baldur's gate 3, there's one action for every character, and enemies surpasses your number normally. Every encounter, almost half of them throw ground effects. If your wizard deal it safely, you must expend your spell slot, and action, and you should prepare non damage spell which takes prepared spell slots too. If you can't change prepared spell before long rest(it will be sometime after I guess?), So it's extreme waste, if you do this, there's more goblins than your party members to re-apply ground effects. Unlike DOS2 it's not easy to deal with it. But this game has almost same amount of ground effects of DOS2.

Melees doesn't have gap-closer like DOS2 if they don't have magical items, and there's almost every time limitation of short rest or something. So they jump every time to avoid ground effect which waste your bonus action every time. And my personal opinion, it's suck to jump every turn, it feels like melees being grasshopper or bunny. Spellcasters use bonus action more useful than melees normally, jumping around makes more serious waste to them.



Shove things is an attack. Since the best way to deal some damages to enemies now is shoving them off the cliff. Normally action is for dealing damage, and major CC, bonus action is for buff and utils in DND 5e. Throw was bonus action before early access, but Larian changed it because bonus action is for utility not dealing damage. And DND 5e there's safety that shove only pushes them 5.ft, so if you place your characters well, there's no super dangerous situation to be shoved til death unless multiple enemies try to shove only one creature til death (at least there will be multiple strength contest)

BG3 they push almost 20ft with high strength, and I can't be sure it uses strength contest, or melee attack accuracy. And there's bunch of thing push them with area effect. It means BG3 you can easily instantly die. And there's no unconscious if there's no ground, instant death, which is suck, and bodies teleport back to camp, it's so silly. and there's bug that Gale's body teleport to Camp and kill all the other party members with necrotic aura. If place has too much cliff, you die so easily it becomes initiative, saving throw rock scissor paper game. It feels almost unfair, and non-playable.

This is the spoiler situation that I felt unfairness, I killed these encounter somehow, but I had no fun with it.

Minos in underdark, if you encounter them on the cliff, with bug(movement doesn't equals jump distance) Minos come from really long distance, and push parties off the cliff easily.


This is the most bummer part of shove. If released game will have this same encounter and same mechanic, I'll be very disappointed.
Duergars on the fairing boat, The last fight of early access. Boat fight! They pushes my party with all their effort, position doesn't matter in this encounter, bomb, pushing arrows, spells (these 3 are AOE push), their strength(shove distance), and their AI manage to push parties off the boat with just one push (which is instant death, there's no swimming back unlike good DND situation) Only saving throw and invisibility help this encounter in my case, which was no fun, no tactics, just luck. Game doesn't supposed to be this, I dare to say.



This is the explanation why too much ground effect is bad, and shove is too op in my opinion.

Sorry for my bad English.
Originally Posted by Syrek
As an avid DOS player I have no problem with surfaces and kinda know how to play around them but sometimes the differences in outcomes from D&D5e to BG3 are staggering.

I mean, a goblin can try to throw an alchemical fire flask at me, roll a CRITICAL MISS and it still will set the ground around me on fire and make me take like 6 damage + 2 when I try to step out of the flame patch.

Any decent DM would make the flask pop open and pour on the goblin, slip out of his hand and land in the bushes or something to that extent on a critical miss.

In BG3 it still deals full damage. And that's what I have a problem with.

This and the fact that *arrows* explode in pools and fire and acid. Arrows should not pack enough substance to make an AoE unless they are super expensive magical arrows. And I'd still rather see those kind of effects come from spells or flasks rather than arrows.

And the AoE throwables never miss their mark. They could sometimes be off a meter or two.
I also would like to flink in that when people use the argument "but it's not TT it's a videogame it needs to be fun" they forget something very important. They forget to add "for me". Instead pretty much always making the assumption that they speak for the majority.

Well. I, personally would find it more fun if it followed closer to the TT. Which means that cantrips shouldn't create surfaces and damage at the same time. That shove shouldn't be a bonus action. Hide should be a bonus action only for some classes and need a feat taken for the others. Encounters should be trimmed down as 20+ enemies is not something a lvl3 party should meet. That scrolls should be for casters only. That surfaces and barrels not disappear entirely but are toned down greatly and only exists as strategic options in some encounters. That spells like sleep doesn't become useless because of HP buffering etc.

And I don't even play the tabletop version. Haven't for 25 years. So why do I wish it to follow the 5e D&D rules more closely than they do now? Because as someone that loves crpg's, it would be something new. Something that hasn't been truly successfully done so far. A true transition from TT to cprg where the main difference is that the DM can't improvise on the go. I don't want another NWN clone. Or a DOS clone set in Forgotten Realms. Or PoE or Kingmaker. Pick inspiration from everywhere but create something that really can't be compared to the other series more than a few similarities.

Considering that Larian Studios only has one strong IP(Divinity) with two top sellers(DOS 1&2), I think it's imperative that they show us that they are able to create this. And I think that so far they are showing promise but that the solution should never be to stray from the 5e d&d rules if it can be fixed in other ways. Because if they get stuck in the same game design that has worked for them before, they will soon fall behind the next upcoming studio with a smash hit on the market.
Originally Posted by Sunfly

I see this complaint a lot but I've yet to hear a good explanation for why it's actually a bad idea beyond "5e handles it this way instead". There's nothing special about hp, ac, and vancian spellcasting that gets ruined by BG3's implentation of the rules. Numbers can be tuned to account for the added functionalities of some spells and the rest is just adjusting available resources. It's bizarre that "It's not the same as it is in 5e" is a reply to "I find it fun".



You didn't hear a good explanation? That was literally the explanation. It's not difficult to understand.

Here, there's a part that I left out.

EDIT: There's more. Some spells target AC, other spells require the target to make saving throws. The spells which target AC are easier to hit because of lowered monster AC. Saving throws have not been altered. This means spells which require saving throws have not been rebalanced and are now underwhelming to use and are not effective. See Sacred Flame, Color Spray, Sleep - all of those feel very bad to use because they're much more ineffective than they should be. Other spells are powerful because they require Concentration to be effective. Concentration is a saving throw. Saving throws are much easier to fail when there is unresistable, no-saving-throw-to-avoid damage and AoE attacks and explosions all over the place. This makes concentration spells less effective, AND LESS FUN TO USE.


The game is using two different systems designed for two different styles of game. Because the systems are working at odds with each other, THIS DOES NOT FEEL FUN.

I hope you are able to understand that.



Originally Posted by KingTiki

No problem with having to make adjustments when it comes to making this a PC game. But there are adjustments and there are just bad homebrews. If we are honest 90% of homebrew is utter shite, because people are not thinking straight, but "omg having a heavy armor wizard subclass with access to 9th level spells as their starting ability would be so great" (overexaggeration, but you get the point). Similar I feel that Larian is going hard for their revamping of mechanics like surfaces etc. They make concentration spells basically useless, and those already are a gamble in the normal rules. Just to point out one huge problem.


This. There are plenty of adjustments from the tabletop which are good and fun. Because some things need adjusting does not mean that every single adjustment is by definition a good one.
I'm not a TT player but I think the game would be way more memorable to me if Larian followed the rules a little bit more.

I don't play a BG / D&D to focus on tactical combats.
Dipping, surfaces, OP ennemies, flashy effects, shove/jump all the time,... That's fun, but if it's everywhere in the game it don't look very RP to me.

I think the focus is too much about "gameplay" and not enough about adventure, immersion and consistency regarding D&D and the FR.


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