Larian Studios
Posted By: Grimo BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 06:53 AM
As a long time DM, this game makes me furious. Not because I don't like a good challenge, but because it feels like the game is actively being inconsistent with 5e rules, punishing players and all-in-all making an environment hostile to players, especially those who want to play a heroic character.

- every. damn. NPC. hates you. Why? Why does this have to be so damn oppressive? Where is the levity, the gratitude, the derring-do? Why is everyone such a dick? It doesn't make me want to solve quests because the people who give them to me are such c- well, you know.
- goblins have triple their MM health, loads of alchemists fire. It feels like the DM is cheating for no good reason.
- surfaces. surfaces everywhere. go away.
- the game wastes my time with big 'set piece' battles like the one at the gates of the druid grove. Lots of NPCs fighting lots of NPCs. I can't ambush or anything because a cutscene forces me into combat so far away from the action I spend most moves running. Just use a cutscene, please.
- most fights are so difficult that you need party optimisation, which means you'll need to be a cleric or have shadowheart and that's that.
- picking on low-armor backline targets or knocked out ones. Seriously, I get that in real life monsters will probably do this, but in gameplay the reality is people are going to just give up trying to have low armored casters in their party at all.
- and after all this, theres... nothing. no loot. no helpful items. everything seems empty.

This game has great potential but right now it feels like it is a great adventure in the hands of a shitty neckbeard DM who hates you.


+1 to everything you've said.

I'll just add that you're stuck with a bad DM, but your fellow players aren't great either : your companions just want you dead or away.
Posted By: Pupito Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 07:33 AM
+1 entire game feels like you got forced to play at a table where literally everyone hates you, and wants to fuck over you specifically. Reminds me of a D&D story I saw a while back where this dude made an Evil aligned character, and right at the start of the campaign the douchebag DM told everyone at the table he was playing an evil character. Didn't tell any of the other players alignments, just his. And then both the party and DM proceeded to attempt to kill him at every possible opportunity. Turn that into a video game and you have BG3
I have the same feelings.

It's not very immersive atm and I have the feeling I'm only playing a tactical RPG, which is not my main concern in a BG / D&D game.
+1
Posted By: Sunfly Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 07:43 AM
I don't understand the point about needing a Cleric, is it something specific?
Posted By: Pupito Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 07:48 AM
Originally Posted by Sunfly
I don't understand the point about needing a Cleric, is it something specific?


They're the healer class for the most part, they can excel in other area as well but they make the best healers above other classes, so with the way combat flows right now with explosive barrels, special arrows, ground effects, insane triple attacks and things like that you often need a lot of healing during combat and are therefore almost forced into having a cleric in the party.
Posted By: Sunfly Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 08:12 AM
Originally Posted by Pupito
Originally Posted by Sunfly
I don't understand the point about needing a Cleric, is it something specific?


They're the healer class for the most part, they can excel in other area as well but they make the best healers above other classes, so with the way combat flows right now with explosive barrels, special arrows, ground effects, insane triple attacks and things like that you often need a lot of healing during combat and are therefore almost forced into having a cleric in the party.


But there's food and potions everywhere that don't consume spellslots. If anything Cleric feels like dead weight to me, I usually just have Shadowheart stay at camp while Lae'zel, Astarion, and Wyll do the next lifting.
This I completly understand...where is Jaheira/ Minsc or Jan?Those essential balancing supportive NPCs.
I agree about the companions. They're all so special it's getting annoying.

I just want an ordinary hero at this point. An Eder, Jaheira or Branwen. Ajantis, Keldorn, a boring predictable knight type. A light-hearted rogue like Coran.

Not everyone needs to be undead, alien, devil-spawn or have dark secrets (that are painfully obvious). It gets old. If everyone is extra special, no one is.

The mysterious hooded undead you encounter early in the game is another good example of how special falls flat. I thought he was a really cool and mysterious character. I was intrigued. Until he showed up at camp and turned into a vendor.
An Eder-type companion would be great. He was so un-special and it was nice.
Originally Posted by Raflamir
An Eder-type companion would be great. He was so un-special and it was nice.


Yeah he was special in being so aggressively normal, something this game really lacks. Apart from the PC, who seems remarkably shallow compared to each and every companion who could rightfully be the protagonist of his own game.
Posted By: Pupito Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 09:52 AM
It's pretty sad when the custom PC is the most bland and normal of all the characters, while the "side characters" are all super special. And I totally feel that about the undead guy becoming a vendor. I had that conversation with him and was so excited to bump into him later on in the game and see what he wanted from me and what he was all about, like maybe he had a questline or something for me? And then he just randomly shows up in my camp as the cheapest vendor in existence. Like really? Even the vendors in this game are more special than my PC!

Apparently, despite my character supposedly being the main character of this game, she's just some Drow named Tav who just so happened to get abducted by some mind flayers. Meanwhile one of my companions literally has something to do with a goddess and could apparently cause the destruction of the entire world. It's like the opposite of Skyrim, where instead of being some super badass dude who can eat the souls of dragons, you play as Lydia and your job is to just carry his shit around.
Posted By: Xantyr Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 10:55 AM
Some strong opinions in this topic.

Remind yourselves, this is Early Access. We are all playing a custom made character. The companions in your party are the - as for now, unplayable - Origin characters with a full-fledged built-in storyline. Hence, your custom made character will indeed feel more bland than that of your party mates. Your custom made character will be calling all the shots , though.

Posted By: Ixal Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 11:13 AM
Originally Posted by Xantyr
Some strong opinions in this topic.

Remind yourselves, this is Early Access. We are all playing a custom made character. The companions in your party are the - as for now, unplayable - Origin characters with a full-fledged built-in storyline. Hence, your custom made character will indeed feel more bland than that of your party mates. Your custom made character will be calling all the shots , though.



Yet many people have no interest in playing origin characters instead of their custom ones. That worked for DOS2 where you could build every character to do whatever you wanted and the race selection was limited. But it does not for BG3 with fixed classes and more races than origin characters.
Originally Posted by Xantyr
Some strong opinions in this topic.

Remind yourselves, this is Early Access. We are all playing a custom made character. The companions in your party are the - as for now, unplayable - Origin characters with a full-fledged built-in storyline. Hence, your custom made character will indeed feel more bland than that of your party mates. Your custom made character will be calling all the shots , though.



Origin characters aren't a good thing for a game franchised as Baldurs Gate. You either end up with a story shoehorned by Larian (Origin stories are totally written in advance, you can't customize much), or with a bland PC with nothing special (Custom made).

Either way, the main story is watered down because it has to fit with both Origin and Custom characters.

Whereas, in the old Baldurs Gate/Bioware games, you had one strong main character, almost entirely customable, along with enjoyable companions who were to remain companions all the way, not characters who would compete for the spotlight because of theses Origin story mechanics.

Usually, games make a choice in early stages of creation : either letting you play whatever character you want and add a strong story on top of it to make it feel special (let's say, Dragon Age Inquisition) or give you a premade character which allows the story to dig deep into what you're supposed to roleplay (let's say, Witcher 3).

Baldur's Gate 3 tries too much to be its own thing, and by not choosing an identity (be it for story or even gameplay with the very questionable choice of merging D&D5 and DOS mechanics), it just makes it bland and forgettable.

Originally Posted by Sunfly
Originally Posted by Pupito
Originally Posted by Sunfly
I don't understand the point about needing a Cleric, is it something specific?


They're the healer class for the most part, they can excel in other area as well but they make the best healers above other classes, so with the way combat flows right now with explosive barrels, special arrows, ground effects, insane triple attacks and things like that you often need a lot of healing during combat and are therefore almost forced into having a cleric in the party.


But there's food and potions everywhere that don't consume spellslots. If anything Cleric feels like dead weight to me, I usually just have Shadowheart stay at camp while Lae'zel, Astarion, and Wyll do the next lifting.


Yea that's great too... With all those healing potions and food everywhere the healer is useless^^
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- every. damn. NPC. hates you. Why? Why does this have to be so damn oppressive? Where is the levity, the gratitude, the derring-do? Why is everyone such a dick? It doesn't make me want to solve quests because the people who give them to me are such c- well, you know.


They don't. Sorry, but this point is just plain wrong. Zevlor is a cool dude, as is Halsin, Rath the Tiefling couple and many more are nice.

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- goblins have triple their MM health, loads of alchemists fire. It feels like the DM is cheating for no good reason.


This is indeed a problem.

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- surfaces. surfaces everywhere. go away.


Make them >really< rare. Like just the powder room + the trap in the cave would be more than enough for act 1.

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- the game wastes my time with big 'set piece' battles like the one at the gates of the druid grove. Lots of NPCs fighting lots of NPCs. I can't ambush or anything because a cutscene forces me into combat so far away from the action I spend most moves running. Just use a cutscene, please.


This is the one thing you cannot go around, and this is fine to me. All the other battles are not forced in a certain way.

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- most fights are so difficult that you need party optimisation, which means you'll need to be a cleric or have shadowheart and that's that.


Doing my 2nd play right now, no cleric in the party. Just Wizard, Ranger, Rogue, Fighter custom party. You dont *need* any class.

Quote
- picking on low-armor backline targets or knocked out ones. Seriously, I get that in real life monsters will probably do this, but in gameplay the reality is people are going to just give up trying to have low armored casters in their party at all.


I agree and think this is probably an AI bug, as they atm use too much meta information to make "optimal" plays.

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- and after all this, theres... nothing. no loot. no helpful items. everything seems empty.


You talk about a bad DM, but tbh: a bad DM is one that has to gift their players something for every encounter. "You killes 3 goblins? Here have a Staff of the Magi!"

Posted By: Zress Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 11:35 AM
Originally Posted by Grimo
As a long time DM, this game makes me furious. Not because I don't like a good challenge, but because it feels like the game is actively being inconsistent with 5e rules, punishing players and all-in-all making an environment hostile to players, especially those who want to play a heroic character.

- every. damn. NPC. hates you. Why? Why does this have to be so damn oppressive? Where is the levity, the gratitude, the derring-do? Why is everyone such a dick? It doesn't make me want to solve quests because the people who give them to me are such c- well, you know.
- goblins have triple their MM health, loads of alchemists fire. It feels like the DM is cheating for no good reason.
- surfaces. surfaces everywhere. go away.
- the game wastes my time with big 'set piece' battles like the one at the gates of the druid grove. Lots of NPCs fighting lots of NPCs. I can't ambush or anything because a cutscene forces me into combat so far away from the action I spend most moves running. Just use a cutscene, please.
- most fights are so difficult that you need party optimisation, which means you'll need to be a cleric or have shadowheart and that's that.
- picking on low-armor backline targets or knocked out ones. Seriously, I get that in real life monsters will probably do this, but in gameplay the reality is people are going to just give up trying to have low armored casters in their party at all.
- and after all this, theres... nothing. no loot. no helpful items. everything seems empty.

This game has great potential but right now it feels like it is a great adventure in the hands of a shitty neckbeard DM who hates you.




Me and my gf are playing in a D&D group and after playing some bg3 we decided that it's like our own DM is running this game, and those are exactly the flaws we talked about lol. Giving monsters stupid abilities out of the blue, all the NPCs are assholes.

So far every NPC that talked shit to me I killed. Same goes for that stupid tiefling with the crossbow, she want you to do something for her but in the process of giving you the quest she curses you so many time and act like she can take the whole party that I just Eldrich Blasted her stupid face to oblivion.
Originally Posted by VincentNZ
Originally Posted by Raflamir
An Eder-type companion would be great. He was so un-special and it was nice.


Yeah he was special in being so aggressively normal, something this game really lacks. Apart from the PC, who seems remarkably shallow compared to each and every companion who could rightfully be the protagonist of his own game.


As has been pointed out, it's like that because the origin characters are intended to be the protagonists of their own games.

In some ways, the custom PC is the Eder of the game. I am not really sure why Larian decided to follow along in the same ruts as DOS2, but I suspect it's because they want to differentiate themselves from the original makers of the BG series (Bioware/Black Isle).

In any event, I second a lot of the things mentioned in this thread. I have seen people mention that there'll be more companions in the game by launch, but I haven't found any actual evidence of this... And I wonder, if they haven't already started with them, do they realistically have enough time to include more companions?

I found myself at the end of the Goblin Camp story in the home base, with no one really interested in my character except Astarion. Which is a bit awkward because I prefer to play wlw characters, and neither lady liked a good hearted PC, regardless of their gender. It might not be a big issue to some players, but romance is important to me in my RPGs and to be left out just because someone early in development decided to make both female companions either out and out evil, or at least evil adjacent does not feel real good. BG1+2 had the advantage of having a fairly big selection of companions, and so gave the player a better choice of who would accompany them on their adventures.

Anyway... I'm going to put BG3 away for a few months and come back later when the EA has advanced a bit and see what changes. (And keep an eye on the forums in the meantime.)

Z.
Posted By: Muthud Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by Grimo

- goblins have triple their MM health, loads of alchemists fire. It feels like the DM is cheating for no good reason.

Why can't I have battles like in 5e where 10 goblins rush you, your fighter slashes through 2 and your wizard blasts 3 others. And the difficulty comes from there being many enemies or being surprised.

Originally Posted by Grimo

- surfaces. surfaces everywhere. go away.

I have to say I like the surfaces. Could be a little less common - especially enemies having surface creating bottles / arrows is frustrating.

Originally Posted by Grimo

- the game wastes my time with big 'set piece' battles like the one at the gates of the druid grove. Lots of NPCs fighting lots of NPCs. I can't ambush or anything because a cutscene forces me into combat so far away from the action I spend most moves running. Just use a cutscene, please.

I'm OK with some 'set piece' battles. In fact, having a few large scale battles feels like there's something big happening story-wise. But they shouldn't be very common.

Originally Posted by Grimo

- most fights are so difficult that you need party optimisation, which means you'll need to be a cleric or have shadowheart and that's that.

THIS -- I'm a long-time DM and in D&D you don't re-do battles. You have easy battles, tough battles and then you have boss-level very challenging battles. But - the players need to feel they can find a way to beat it, no matter how unexpectedly they stumble into the fight. Now you may encounter 3 goblins at lvl 4 and have a drop 2 characters. All boss fights you need to first stumble into, then load and find a way to surprise the enemy. Not fun at all.

This was the biggest negative thing in DOS2 as well for me.

In some situations you notice the enemy first and can plan a sneak attack. Most times I would expect fights to start on even ground or anyway the enemy attacking openly or in surprise. The players should feel they are in trouble, but it doesn't mean you die 9 times out of 10 because you were surprised. The players are the heroes! They should be able to overcome without a re-do.

Originally Posted by Grimo

- picking on low-armor backline targets or knocked out ones. Seriously, I get that in real life monsters will probably do this, but in gameplay the reality is people are going to just give up trying to have low armored casters in their party at all.

No matter what you do, Gale goes down. I mean, when the fight breaks, the enemy don't know who you are. Why would they go after the guy farthest back? They don't know he's the easiest to kill or that they should go after that one (unless you meta the AC).

Originally Posted by Grimo

This game has great potential but right now it feels like it is a great adventure in the hands of a shitty neckbeard DM who hates you.

It really does. All the dice roll DC's outside battle. All the fights with overpowered enemies with stacks of HP. Goblins 2-hitting your lvl3 characters. Bosses 1-hitting your AC18 fighter.

If you need to load (even multiple times) for a battle to find the right approach, it's bad game design for an RPG.

Originally Posted by Zandilar

As has been pointed out, it's like that because the origin characters are intended to be the protagonists of their own games.

In some ways, the custom PC is the Eder of the game. I am not really sure why Larian decided to follow along in the same ruts as DOS2, but I suspect it's because they want to differentiate themselves from the original makers of the BG series (Bioware/Black Isle).

Coop is important to Larian and origins are a brilliant design for that, as it allows coop buddies to easily take over companions in your.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 04:19 PM
There's actually a whole lot I disagree with, here.
The point about goblins (and other creatures) having their stats changed drastically is basically the only one where I feel it could be a problem.
Well, that and the AI's fondness for bullying the weak.
Surfaces effects need to be toned down across the game. but I have no issue with the mechanic existing in principle.

Loot if anything seems to be almost too generous right now if we talk about equipment, and DEFINITELY too abundant we are referring to everything else.
Originally Posted by Zandilar
Originally Posted by VincentNZ
Originally Posted by Raflamir
An Eder-type companion would be great. He was so un-special and it was nice.


Yeah he was special in being so aggressively normal, something this game really lacks. Apart from the PC, who seems remarkably shallow compared to each and every companion who could rightfully be the protagonist of his own game.


As has been pointed out, it's like that because the origin characters are intended to be the protagonists of their own games.

In some ways, the custom PC is the Eder of the game. I am not really sure why Larian decided to follow along in the same ruts as DOS2, but I suspect it's because they want to differentiate themselves from the original makers of the BG series (Bioware/Black Isle).

In any event, I second a lot of the things mentioned in this thread. I have seen people mention that there'll be more companions in the game by launch, but I haven't found any actual evidence of this... And I wonder, if they haven't already started with them, do they realistically have enough time to include more companions?

I found myself at the end of the Goblin Camp story in the home base, with no one really interested in my character except Astarion. Which is a bit awkward because I prefer to play wlw characters, and neither lady liked a good hearted PC, regardless of their gender. It might not be a big issue to some players, but romance is important to me in my RPGs and to be left out just because someone early in development decided to make both female companions either out and out evil, or at least evil adjacent does not feel real good. BG1+2 had the advantage of having a fairly big selection of companions, and so gave the player a better choice of who would accompany them on their adventures.

Anyway... I'm going to put BG3 away for a few months and come back later when the EA has advanced a bit and see what changes. (And keep an eye on the forums in the meantime.)

Z.


Yeah, I get that. Basically the Origin characters are unused PCs that now act as companions. So your custom NPC is a clean slate apart from the tadpole- so far that is. I am fine with having little to no backstory, and tendencially I have nothing against companions that have a crapton of baggage attached. However, they are so annoying about it. They hint at that there is more to it, and when asked they say something along the lines of "this is not the time" until it is the time and it is all slapped into your face again. Otherwise there is no real interaction and not a whole lot of natural dialogue.
Eder is a fine example, because you meet in that village go along a quest together and he has constant remarks that reveal parts of his past, so I build up a relationship and then help him. Sagani on the other hand is pretty open and straightforward rightaway, so I can ask for the background and the quest attached to her and then decide, if I want to follow it.
In BG3 there is little of that sort, oh there is that banter of Shadowheart being a constant idiot to Lae'zel and some might have a dialogue option after seeing something. To put it into TES:Oblivion NPC speech: "I do not know you and I don't care to know you." It really feels like they created a custom party, then painted some companion character sheets on them and gave up halfway through. The result is a throwaway party, supported by the fact that Larian said that the party is set after Act I implying some of them leaving/dying/whatever.
That is also why I think, they will add real companions later in the game, that are not Origin characters and Minsc being one part of it. And then let the other PCs fade into non-existence. Or actually bring them to life, which would take a lot of rework including quests, dialogue and voice files.
Posted By: Noraver Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by Raflamir
An Eder-type companion would be great. He was so un-special and it was nice.


Eder was Minsc-Tier for me, companion-wise.

It'll be a shame if we don't get an amazing, happy-go-lucky or jokingly fun companion in this game.
And not the kind that intentionally tries to make jokes; Eder and Minsc were just being them, and it was fun and funny, sometimes touching and sad.

I hope we get someone like that if there are more companions.
Volo is a bit of this, but he's not a Bard I can take with me on my adventure (Or I absolutely would).
Posted By: Hachina Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by VincentNZ
Originally Posted by Raflamir
An Eder-type companion would be great. He was so un-special and it was nice.


Yeah he was special in being so aggressively normal, something this game really lacks. Apart from the PC, who seems remarkably shallow compared to each and every companion who could rightfully be the protagonist of his own game.


He was normal but he had a hell of a backstory. His brother died in the war of the saint and he was sad about it, sad about Eothas demise and his loss of faith. Eder is a pillar, he is kind, compassionate, quiet, and listening. He play the roles of a tank. But these vulnerabilities, his past, the fact that you recruit him during the soulless child crisis near a hanged-man tree, all of this gives eder a dimension, a thickness, a feeling of realism. Its all in the writing, the character went through a lot. He may be ''normal'', but he has tons of experience, he has lived, and he talks about it.
Posted By: Emrikol Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by Grimo
As a long time DM, this game makes me furious. Not because I don't like a good challenge, but because it feels like the game is actively being inconsistent with 5e rules, punishing players and all-in-all making an environment hostile to players, especially those who want to play a heroic character.

- every. damn. NPC. hates you. Why? Why does this have to be so damn oppressive? Where is the levity, the gratitude, the derring-do? Why is everyone such a dick? It doesn't make me want to solve quests because the people who give them to me are such c- well, you know.
- goblins have triple their MM health, loads of alchemists fire. It feels like the DM is cheating for no good reason.
- surfaces. surfaces everywhere. go away.
- the game wastes my time with big 'set piece' battles like the one at the gates of the druid grove. Lots of NPCs fighting lots of NPCs. I can't ambush or anything because a cutscene forces me into combat so far away from the action I spend most moves running. Just use a cutscene, please.
- most fights are so difficult that you need party optimisation, which means you'll need to be a cleric or have shadowheart and that's that.
- picking on low-armor backline targets or knocked out ones. Seriously, I get that in real life monsters will probably do this, but in gameplay the reality is people are going to just give up trying to have low armored casters in their party at all.
- and after all this, theres... nothing. no loot. no helpful items. everything seems empty.

This game has great potential but right now it feels like it is a great adventure in the hands of a shitty neckbeard DM who hates you.



- So much criticism was leveled against Larian for the lighthearted goofiness of their earlier games. Now everyone is a ‘meany’. They can’t win.
- Goblin health? Yeah, not by the official rules. Fights would be too easy if they had 4 hp though. That being said, it’s part of the whole approach. If rests were limited, lower health goblins and such would be fine. The attrition approach of D&D isn’t present.
- I haven’t seen it overly much, but I don’t abuse barrels. Surfaces were too readily present in dos2. Hopefully not as much here.
- Big battles are fine. Seriously seems like a lot of ADD around here.
- Fights aren’t that bad. As it is now, you just need to rest more than you normally would in d&d
- On the one hand, picking on squishy is good A.I. On the other hand, stupid creatures like goblins shouldn’t have much ‘I’ to begin with
- Loot is already too much. Stop with the welfare state DMing
Originally Posted by Sunfly
Originally Posted by Pupito
Originally Posted by Sunfly
I don't understand the point about needing a Cleric, is it something specific?


They're the healer class for the most part, they can excel in other area as well but they make the best healers above other classes, so with the way combat flows right now with explosive barrels, special arrows, ground effects, insane triple attacks and things like that you often need a lot of healing during combat and are therefore almost forced into having a cleric in the party.


But there's food and potions everywhere that don't consume spellslots. If anything Cleric feels like dead weight to me, I usually just have Shadowheart stay at camp while Lae'zel, Astarion, and Wyll do the next lifting.

The fact that one of the most central classes and one of the major classes of the game feels like dead weight doesn't bother you? I would consider that a red flag that needs immediate attention.


Originally Posted by Xantyr
Some strong opinions in this topic.

Remind yourselves, this is Early Access. We are all playing a custom made character. The companions in your party are the - as for now, unplayable - Origin characters with a full-fledged built-in storyline. Hence, your custom made character will indeed feel more bland than that of your party mates. Your custom made character will be calling all the shots , though.


Have you considered that I don't want to play someone else's story? That I don't want to play Larians vision of the Hero's Journey but my version of the hero's journey? What reason would there be for this option to not be available to me if not the main focus of the game? If I make a custom character I am making that character to go on an adventure and it's my adventure. I want to be the hero. I don't think that is an unreasonable or big ask especially because it IS early access and now is the time where they can change it without having to retcon later.
Originally Posted by Argonaut


Have you considered that I don't want to play someone else's story? That I don't want to play Larians vision of the Hero's Journey but my version of the hero's journey? What reason would there be for this option to not be available to me if not the main focus of the game? If I make a custom character I am making that character to go on an adventure and it's my adventure. I want to be the hero. I don't think that is an unreasonable or big ask especially because it IS early access and now is the time where they can change it without having to retcon later.


So you want it to be a power fantasy.
Posted By: Ixal Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by Emrikol
They can’t win.


Of course they can win. By making "normal" NPCs and not cazy snowflakes ones. I rather have characters like in Kingmaker and not vampires,
chosen
etc.
Originally Posted by Emrikol
[quote=Grimo]
- So much criticism was leveled against Larian for the lighthearted goofiness of their earlier games. Now everyone is a ‘meany’. They can’t win.



Hah I remember that. They did tone down the worst of the DoS 1 goofiness for DoS 2, and here they're going for a mostly straight-ahead D&D theme. The current companions aren't likeable on the surface, but we haven't seen all of them yet or their later development in the game. So I'm not gonna pass judgement on that yet.

On some of the other OP points: Goblins having too-high HP is probably a result of Larian deciding the maximum enemy group size the game engine and camera view could support, and then working backwards from there to balance each combat encounter. We get high HP goblins because the game engine probably can't support throwing a horde of lower-HP goblins at the player party.

The current ruleset lets anyone heal, just not always at a distance, so it doesn't really force choosing a Cleric.

Big battles take a while, partly due to AI processing and that may be optimized before final release. The game allows Save in the middle of combat, which surprised me, but makes the larger battles more manageable because I can stop and come back later.

Originally Posted by Dulany67
Originally Posted by Argonaut


Have you considered that I don't want to play someone else's story? That I don't want to play Larians vision of the Hero's Journey but my version of the hero's journey? What reason would there be for this option to not be available to me if not the main focus of the game? If I make a custom character I am making that character to go on an adventure and it's my adventure. I want to be the hero. I don't think that is an unreasonable or big ask especially because it IS early access and now is the time where they can change it without having to retcon later.


So you want it to be a power fantasy.

Where did you get that from?

Are you under the impression that being the hero means no trials or tribulations? No struggle? No prejudice or ramifications? Because as I stated clearly if I am making a custom character then it is my adventure and I should be afforded the choice. I never gave any sort of sentiment that could be misconstrued as me asking to change the way the world or other characters react to me or any changes to the story at all and it would not affect my ability to also play an origin character and play through their adventure and their interpretation of the hero's journey. Would you like me to point you towards examples of the hero's journey that are not power fantasies? Furthermore, if the origin characters get to be Larians power fantasy, why can I not have my own?
Posted By: vel Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 09:05 PM
Grimo those are nearly all good points. Very much agree with the notion that everyone is mean, dark, rude, unhelpful, ungrateful, etc. It sets a pretty crappy tone for what could otherwise be a lot of fun interactions. Especially companions.

The combat difficulty is not tuned yet and it's deliberately hard. I ended up cruising through most battles, but the hard ones I'd party wipe first before figuring out a trick or another. I deliberately didn't abuse surfaces because after playing 160 hours of DOS2 I was tired of that. They really need to limit/remove surfaces. No DM would do what they've done.

The "attack the caster" targeting of low armor backline folks forces you to place them strategically and, once you have the spells, cast mirror image, blur, or one of the other AC raising spells. If you're a caster in cloth armor and no AC buffs you're dead. This becomes much less of a problem after level 2. What's interesting about this is how you'll also do this to the enemy parties, target and destroy the casters before they can nuke you.

If you're struggling with heals without a cleric, note that once you're well into level 2 or so you'll have found enough healing potions that you won't need to abuse the (completely against the spirit of D&D) eating food to heal mechanic. There are also magic items, scrolls, and combat abilities that can heal. I think the thing that's broken here is eating food to heal, not a lack of heals. 5e rules seem to deliberately deemphasize caster healing in favor of buffs.

The loot is ridiculously broken. Searching crate after crate after crate and finding 99% garbage for that 1% very special and amazing magic item that was randomly left out in the open... makes no sense.

I really hope Larian addresses your feedback and similar posts I've read.




Posted By: sinogy Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 09:06 PM
Totally agree with OP

NPCs are awful in this game. They just treat you like you are a piece of sh*t without a reason!

Companions are bad too. I would gladly kill Shadowheart (very stupid name) if I didn't need a healer. I always try to avoid companion interactions because they either annoy me or force my playthrough into paths I don't wanna go. And, there is Gale. I don't give a damn if that wizard die exploding, I am not giving any item to him to destroy. Plus, I think Astarion is the most annoying character I have ever encounter in a game. Why does he have to be always flirty? We get it he is a lil bit softy but you don't have to shove it down our throats. You wanna put a bisexual char in your game then take a look at Pillars of Iternity2. Serafen was multidimensional and interesting char overall and one of his aspects was being bisexual but it was not his only characteristic. Astarion on the other hand feels like he would just gonna grab your genitals midfight.

I know Larian wanna get away from stereotypes but it is too much. At least give us some normies as companion option in the future. A stereotype doesn't have to be a uninteresting or dull character.
Originally Posted by VincentNZ
Originally Posted by Raflamir
An Eder-type companion would be great. He was so un-special and it was nice.


Yeah he was special in being so aggressively normal, something this game really lacks. Apart from the PC, who seems remarkably shallow compared to each and every companion who could rightfully be the protagonist of his own game.


But this is a Larian game, if you are not playing an Origin Character, you are playing the game wrong. You would think having a custom character name show up as Tav would tell you everything Larian wants you to know about your character. The PC is not the hero of this story, we are the sidekick unless your choose to be a protagonists, i.e. an Origin Character.
Posted By: vel Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 09:20 PM
We forgot another thing that only a bad DM would let you do: shove every enemy to win. Or let the party wipe by being shoved.

I agree with you on most points, except I love the setpiece battles. I think there should be more some smaller encounters between them, but in general, very fun.
Posted By: Hachina Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 09:26 PM
Personally, I don't mind the evil companion. I Actually like all of them. I just want more. I don't get all the criticism toward them, except the lack of meaningful discussion / interaction. I Think all of them have something unique and the voice, the acting, the gesture are all very well done. I would just like more banter during travel, and them to actually get out of their way to give their opinion during quest other than their own. Or them to argue randomly while travelling. That kind of little thing. I mean, I don't think Larian has to do much to make the companion great and rememberable.

And tbh you people should really be more level headed about what character you like or you don't like. Its a roleplaying game. These people are not your BFF . They aren't your friend at all, actually. Its a story where you are surrounded by different, dangerous, and often ambiguous characters. Not a saturday party where you meet friends.
Anyways, we ll probably get to meet your typical ''loyal good straight neverlying always kind compassionate and merciful handsome paladin'' boy and your usual ''sexy innocent mommy girly wise secretive mischievous'' girl later in the game. So I think the work of Larian on unusual character should be appreciated, and people should suggest how to make the current companions better instead of wiping them. Also rooting for more companions , so we get more choices.
Agreed with everything except needing a cleric, I honestly don't know why I have Shadowheart tag along, she's pretty useless to me, I carry plenty of potions and food to keep me up, anyways, and with a warlock, rogue and fighter, I deal enough damage to wipe the floor with most enemies, anyways.
I also just discovered you can throw item on potions and heal people like that.

Doesn't help that the heals are very limited, and rests aren't, not that I needed many rests with the amount of food I hoarded, had to leave the food/potion bag at camp because that thing weighs like 80 kilos by now...
Originally Posted by Pupito
+1 entire game feels like you got forced to play at a table where literally everyone hates you, and wants to fuck over you specifically. Reminds me of a D&D story I saw a while back where this dude made an Evil aligned character, and right at the start of the campaign the douchebag DM told everyone at the table he was playing an evil character. Didn't tell any of the other players alignments, just his. And then both the party and DM proceeded to attempt to kill him at every possible opportunity. Turn that into a video game and you have BG3
You specifically, indeed, the strange thing is that Lae'zel talking with the other origin characters makes her seem more likeable, she seems respectful enough towards Gale especially, yet to me, all I get for saving her is "Looks like you're not a COMPLETE moron yet"
Originally Posted by Postwave
I agree with you on most points, except I love the setpiece battles. I think there should be more some smaller encounters between them, but in general, very fun.


The issue is they need to be better thought out.

In my evil playthrough, when I raid the grove, Rath is still alive back at the inner sanctum entrance so I need to spend many rounds where I have to just use dash to get to him.

In the harpy battle, similar thing. Last harpy flew to other side of the map so spent 5-6 rounds just moving my team around.

There a point where the battle is over. When it's 4 to 1 in my favor and there no way I could lose, don't force me to spend like 15 minutes mindlessly having me move my people to finish off the last mob.
Posted By: Krall Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 09:42 PM
I'm inclined to agree with quite a bit of this but I want to personally expand further on the issue with combat. That's where I'm really REALLY struggling with during this. I haven't beaten Act 1 yet due to this. Hell, I haven't hit level 4 on either of my playthroughs (had to junk one due to a major bug but that's already been posted).

Combat runs by 5e rules, but the encounters are not set up for proper 5e balance.

At low levels (See all of Act 1) the player characters do not have the tools to handle being outnumbered in any degree. This makes the goblin encounters a situation of "Either cheese this fight to be straight up gouda, or it's a thresher". Seven enemies, same level, starting at ideal positions for their jobs in a fight? And there's no way to talk your way through the encounter? The way the game kinda nudges you to encounter goblins for the first time on your own, you're probably going to get absolutely decimated. The windmill fight is going to make you tear your hair out because goblins being reinforced by clerics is just asking for someone to throw their monitor.
My suggestion would be to either lower the headcount, change the scaling formula so that monsters framed as "weak" such as Goblins don't reach same level with the players, maybe PlayerLevel Minus 1 or 2. Their overwhelming numbers are supposed to be the scary part, not the fact that they're overwhelming you, have more abilities than you, and are surface-weavers. They're Goblins. They're not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Surfaces-
Firebolt. This spell is stronger than nearly anything else in my armaments for Wade. Ray of Frost? Pfft. Shocking Grasp? He's a mage, that's just not going to land, ever. Firebolt? Guaranteed damage. I hit? 1d6 fire. I miss? 1d4 fire from setting the target ablaze and them standing in fire. Their turn starts? Chance for 1d4 fire because they start in fire. Everything lands? Minimum 3 fire damage after everything goes, up to about 14 fire damage if the target is having a particularly bad time. As a CANTRIP and it can detonate things.
I want to iterate here that if my damage numbers are wrong for starting in fire and being on fire, and they're too LOW, then that makes what I'm saying an even WORSE problem.
This makes me want to ask the dev team "Are you making Divinity D20 or are you making a Dungeons and Dragons game?" I know surfaces are a huge thing with Larian titles, but it's heavily incompatible with how you're presenting the rest of combat.

This turned into a big rant post, I'm aware, but I do hope these issues are seen and worked on. Hell, some acknowledgement from the devs about Firebolt needing to be looked at would be nice.
Originally Posted by Zress
Same goes for that stupid tiefling with the crossbow, she want you to do something for her but in the process of giving you the quest she curses you so many time and act like she can take the whole party that I just Eldrich Blasted her stupid face to oblivion.

Well in her case it's understandable, given what she's been through presumely a few minutes or hours before you arrived, I actually liked her..
Posted By: Hachina Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 09:48 PM
Originally Posted by Krall
I'm inclined to agree with quite a bit of this but I want to personally expand further on the issue with combat. That's where I'm really REALLY struggling with during this. I haven't beaten Act 1 yet due to this. Hell, I haven't hit level 4 on either of my playthroughs (had to junk one due to a major bug but that's already been posted).

Combat runs by 5e rules, but the encounters are not set up for proper 5e balance.

At low levels (See all of Act 1) the player characters do not have the tools to handle being outnumbered in any degree. This makes the goblin encounters a situation of "Either cheese this fight to be straight up gouda, or it's a thresher". Seven enemies, same level, starting at ideal positions for their jobs in a fight? And there's no way to talk your way through the encounter? The way the game kinda nudges you to encounter goblins for the first time on your own, you're probably going to get absolutely decimated. The windmill fight is going to make you tear your hair out because goblins being reinforced by clerics is just asking for someone to throw their monitor.
My suggestion would be to either lower the headcount, change the scaling formula so that monsters framed as "weak" such as Goblins don't reach same level with the players, maybe PlayerLevel Minus 1 or 2. Their overwhelming numbers are supposed to be the scary part, not the fact that they're overwhelming you, have more abilities than you, and are surface-weavers. They're Goblins. They're not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Surfaces-
Firebolt. This spell is stronger than nearly anything else in my armaments for Wade. Ray of Frost? Pfft. Shocking Grasp? He's a mage, that's just not going to land, ever. Firebolt? Guaranteed damage. I hit? 1d6 fire. I miss? 1d4 fire from setting the target ablaze and them standing in fire. Their turn starts? Chance for 1d4 fire because they start in fire. Everything lands? Minimum 3 fire damage after everything goes, up to about 14 fire damage if the target is having a particularly bad time. As a CANTRIP and it can detonate things.
I want to iterate here that if my damage numbers are wrong for starting in fire and being on fire, and they're too LOW, then that makes what I'm saying an even WORSE problem.
This makes me want to ask the dev team "Are you making Divinity D20 or are you making a Dungeons and Dragons game?" I know surfaces are a huge thing with Larian titles, but it's heavily incompatible with how you're presenting the rest of combat.

This turned into a big rant post, I'm aware, but I do hope these issues are seen and worked on. Hell, some acknowledgement from the devs about Firebolt needing to be looked at would be nice.



I disagree. The game is not hard by any means. The hardest thing is the lag.

The first goblin fight at the village : Just sneak in, go on the top part of the house and kill the gobelin from hight ground, then decimate the survivor.

Windmill: You just have to nearly kill the boss for the fight to end. Granted, this should be easier to do, and maybe one character should shoot ''focus the boss'' to help you understand that, but once you know it, its a one round or two round fight.

Fortress fight : these are only problematic because of the lag and the boredom of waiting enemy turn.

This game is also about knowing the rules, exploiting your tool and the environment. Push goblin off ledge. use spell appropriatly. Use consummable and potion. Sneak in to get better positionning. Take the hight ground. Larian give you so many options to win, you need to use them.
Posted By: luciant Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 09:53 PM
I understand some of the points of OP but disagree with him on lots of others

Agree:
-Enemy stats not matching 5e MM (as well as abilities)
-Loot does seem to be lackluster in this game, but that is also the case in 5e D&D-- most WoTC officially licensed campaigns only have a handful of magic items in them.

Disagree (and why):
-NPCs hating you - i haven't really run across this, I'm about 30 hours into the EA (2 characters with different choices) and it doesn't really seem like this to me.
-Surfaces - this is a big gripe a lot of people have, but you have to understand the foundation the game is coming from-- this not JUST a D&D game, but a hybrid of D&D and Larian Studio's RPG gaming style. I personally like it as it adds tactical elements to the fights instead of just back and forth wailing on one another. You have to be smart and position well, if you die you reload and change tactics.
-Set pieces-- not sure what you mean by this, I've gone into combats where there were cutscenes but still able to set my guys up as i needed them. Even the example you provided, Goblins at the Druid Grove Gate, if you approach from one side you can get the high ground and the battle flows very differently. The Cutscenes don't place you in a specific spot.
-Picking on backline/downed-- umm thats good AI-- maybe try an easier difficulty?

Originally Posted by Grimo
As a long time DM, this game makes me furious. Not because I don't like a good challenge, but because it feels like the game is actively being inconsistent with 5e rules, punishing players and all-in-all making an environment hostile to players, especially those who want to play a heroic character.

- every. damn. NPC. hates you. Why? Why does this have to be so damn oppressive? Where is the levity, the gratitude, the derring-do? Why is everyone such a dick? It doesn't make me want to solve quests because the people who give them to me are such c- well, you know.
- goblins have triple their MM health, loads of alchemists fire. It feels like the DM is cheating for no good reason.
- surfaces. surfaces everywhere. go away.
- the game wastes my time with big 'set piece' battles like the one at the gates of the druid grove. Lots of NPCs fighting lots of NPCs. I can't ambush or anything because a cutscene forces me into combat so far away from the action I spend most moves running. Just use a cutscene, please.
- most fights are so difficult that you need party optimisation, which means you'll need to be a cleric or have shadowheart and that's that.
- picking on low-armor backline targets or knocked out ones. Seriously, I get that in real life monsters will probably do this, but in gameplay the reality is people are going to just give up trying to have low armored casters in their party at all.
- and after all this, theres... nothing. no loot. no helpful items. everything seems empty.

This game has great potential but right now it feels like it is a great adventure in the hands of a shitty neckbeard DM who hates you.



Posted By: Sharet Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by KingTiki
Quote

[quote]- the game wastes my time with big 'set piece' battles like the one at the gates of the druid grove. Lots of NPCs fighting lots of NPCs. I can't ambush or anything because a cutscene forces me into combat so far away from the action I spend most moves running. Just use a cutscene, please.


This is the one thing you cannot go around, and this is fine to me. All the other battles are not forced in a certain way.


Everyone is talking about this massive battle, am I the only one who missed it? Maybe because I stealthy assassinate all the absolute leader as Halsin asked me?
Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem
Originally Posted by VincentNZ
Originally Posted by Raflamir
An Eder-type companion would be great. He was so un-special and it was nice.


Yeah he was special in being so aggressively normal, something this game really lacks. Apart from the PC, who seems remarkably shallow compared to each and every companion who could rightfully be the protagonist of his own game.


But this is a Larian game, if you are not playing an Origin Character, you are playing the game wrong. You would think having a custom character name show up as Tav would tell you everything Larian wants you to know about your character. The PC is not the hero of this story, we are the sidekick unless your choose to be a protagonists, i.e. an Origin Character.

This is so easy to dispute it is comical.

If we are the sidekick why do we make all the choices and get to close out the game as the main character? Why do we get to choose who gets to come along for the ride? Please explain this to me in detail because you seem privy to information I am not. Furthermore, why give you the option in the first place but not give you the option to play the main character as well? It would make no difference whatsoever as companions taking over dialogues is already a prevalent feature in the game that affects the main story arc constantly and consistently. The feature to watch the conversation play out and also get to read it and voice your opinions also already exists and is used for the entire game in DivOS2 coop.

Now to address the portion that is downright inconsiderate. We are playing wrong? Why does Larian not release a statement to that effect then? They have made statements solidifying their position in many other controversial regards so why not this one? If you have some sort of back channel access directly to the writers and developers could you please let us know and source a comment to this effect for us or ask your friends to release a statement to this regard as this would let us know that we are wasting our time and money in more way than one and should seek restitution. If you are an employee of Larian please make this statement with some official media tied to your actual person so that it may acquire some validity please and thank you. Would you also please explain to us why we paid full price for early access intended to source feedback but are not allowed to voice our opinions, criticism and feedback?

Posted By: Okidoki Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 10:46 PM
SPOILERS BTW

First thank you for being a DM, it's not the easiest job.

so...


Originally Posted by Grimo

- every. damn. NPC. hates you. Why? Why does this have to be so damn oppressive? Where is the levity, the gratitude, the derring-do? Why is everyone such a dick?


I don't know, maybe it's the worm in your eye, the goblins wanting to wipe out the druids, the shadowdruids, a hag (Auntie ethel was actually damn hilarious) , souls being ransomed by zariel, the absolute wanting you dead, back stabbing goblins and drow, Gith with a stick up his ass, Scratch sitting next to his dead master, and the owlbear cub whos mother you probably killed that makes this game so dickish?

That aside there are plenty of things that are light-hearted. You can spam pet scratch the dog because he is such a good boy, you can play fetch with him too, Volo...who uses an ice pick to try and get the worm out of your eye...hint: he fails, "chasing the chicken" in the goblin camp (though its kinda sad but you can save the cub anyway) Auntie ethel's comments and tone (obvious hag from day 1) but still fun to listen to...Petal, the softcore porn scene with a certain drow, The urchin tiefling kids who steal, scam you, listening to shadowheart's sarcastic comments as you get beaten by a sadomasochist, the deep gnome on the windmill, the bear's looks of concern while talking to Volo, The swamp's "sheep" Baaaaa,

Quote
goblins have triple their MM health, loads of alchemists fire. It feels like the DM is cheating for no good reason.


1 fight was CR 18 v party of 4. Sure feels like it, but every combat can be beaten without a cleric healing.

Quote
- surfaces. surfaces everywhere. go away.


More things to look out for, more tactical possibilities, more oh shit moments when you realize poison spores blow up too. As a 5e and DoS2 player surfaces don't bother me since through 5e I've learned to think creatively. Though i will say that certain surfaces will 1 shot encounters.

Quote
- the game wastes my time with big 'set piece' battles like the one at the gates of the druid grove. Lots of NPCs fighting lots of NPCs. I can't ambush or anything because a cutscene forces me into combat so far away from the action I spend most moves running. Just use a cutscene, please.


I see your point, and it would be nice to ambush anything at any time.


Quote
- most fights are so difficult that you need party optimisation, which means you'll need to be a cleric or have shadowheart and that's that.


No, I ran a "no healing" cleric for my evil campaign and it was easier than the first (used healing word once to keep an NPC alive. I used tons of healing items sure (gale) but i rarely used shadowheart at all. My 1st playthrough party was PC lock without knockback, Necrosis gale, trickster Astarion, eldritch knight zae (who was shadowheart until lvl 3). AI targets gale first, great, no problem, let him die and necrosis everyone to death while you choke point them all. (a few encounters were nerfed btw). 2nd playthrough was PC non heals light cleric, gale, elritch zae, theif astarion, this one was FAR more effective at survival than the first party. Cleric ac 19 (21 when buffed), Zae ac 20 (22 when buffed), astarion ac 17 with poison on at all times, Gale (abjuration) ac 16 i think. You don't need an optimized party, you just need to be smart about how you go about each encounter, AND USE POTIONS/FOOD as a bonus action and not waste your action on a heal. Which is a pretty big difference coming from 5e.

Quote
- picking on low-armor backline targets or knocked out ones. Seriously, I get that in real life monsters will probably do this, but in gameplay the reality is people are going to just give up trying to have low armored casters in their party at all.

Actually, gale is one of my stronger characters when he is alive AND dead. If they want gale so badly, give him to them and let them suffer for it. I actually had a fight where the 2 minotaurs knocked astarion off a cliff and they jumped down to pummel him into vampire dust. It was absolutely hillarious and actually made my fight easier to handle.

Quote
- and after all this, theres... nothing. no loot. no helpful items. everything seems empty.

Not every combat needs to drop something good (hook horrors,minotaurs,bulette, and two spectator fights) for example.


Quote
This game has great potential but right now it feels like it is a great adventure in the hands of a shitty neckbeard DM who hates you.

I actually felt like Larian was a DM who was constantly trying to goad me into making the "wrong choice" just to see what would happen. Break the mirror sure, i like liches? sure!, make a deal with a hag? sure, have volo take out your eye with an ice pick? sure! WHO WOULDNT DO ALL OF THESE!?




Posted By: Sunfly Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Sunfly
Originally Posted by Pupito
Originally Posted by Sunfly
I don't understand the point about needing a Cleric, is it something specific?


They're the healer class for the most part, they can excel in other area as well but they make the best healers above other classes, so with the way combat flows right now with explosive barrels, special arrows, ground effects, insane triple attacks and things like that you often need a lot of healing during combat and are therefore almost forced into having a cleric in the party.


But there's food and potions everywhere that don't consume spellslots. If anything Cleric feels like dead weight to me, I usually just have Shadowheart stay at camp while Lae'zel, Astarion, and Wyll do the next lifting.

The fact that one of the most central classes and one of the major classes of the game feels like dead weight doesn't bother you? I would consider that a red flag that needs immediate attention.


Originally Posted by Xantyr
Some strong opinions in this topic.

Remind yourselves, this is Early Access. We are all playing a custom made character. The companions in your party are the - as for now, unplayable - Origin characters with a full-fledged built-in storyline. Hence, your custom made character will indeed feel more bland than that of your party mates. Your custom made character will be calling all the shots , though.


Have you considered that I don't want to play someone else's story? That I don't want to play Larians vision of the Hero's Journey but my version of the hero's journey? What reason would there be for this option to not be available to me if not the main focus of the game? If I make a custom character I am making that character to go on an adventure and it's my adventure. I want to be the hero. I don't think that is an unreasonable or big ask especially because it IS early access and now is the time where they can change it without having to retcon later.


If you had actually read my chain instead of arguing for the sake of arguing you'd realize that your question was irrelevant to the context of my post.
Originally Posted by 1varangian
I agree about the companions. They're all so special it's getting annoying.

I just want an ordinary hero at this point. An Eder, Jaheira or Branwen. Ajantis, Keldorn, a boring predictable knight type. A light-hearted rogue like Coran.

Not everyone needs to be undead, alien, devil-spawn or have dark secrets (that are painfully obvious). It gets old. If everyone is extra special, no one is.

The mysterious hooded undead you encounter early in the game is another good example of how special falls flat. I thought he was a really cool and mysterious character. I was intrigued. Until he showed up at camp and turned into a vendor.



THIS, THIS, THIS. I thought the undead guy was SO fucking cool until he just shows up.... to be at your camp... as a vendor.....
The core of both the BG series and D&D is that the character is yours. If Larian "designed" the game to be played with pregens as only true option than this game deserves to fail as it has missed the point.
Originally Posted by Sunfly

If you had actually read my chain instead of arguing for the sake of arguing you'd realize that your question was irrelevant to the context of my post.

I understood your point perfectly.
I then proceeded to challenge it using simple reasoning.

If you believe otherwise I welcome the explanation.
Originally Posted by Argonaut

Have you considered that I don't want to play someone else's story? That I don't want to play Larians vision of the Hero's Journey but my version of the hero's journey? What reason would there be for this option to not be available to me if not the main focus of the game? If I make a custom character I am making that character to go on an adventure and it's my adventure. I want to be the hero. I don't think that is an unreasonable or big ask especially because it IS early access and now is the time where they can change it without having to retcon later.


I mean, they DO offer that. That is what the custom character is. They aren't going to remove the origin characters' stories just because you want to play El Generico and not have anyone interesting in the part. If they had a pre-prologue before the mind flayer abduction where you were made to fight some giant rats in the inn's cellar or however El Generico got his/her/their start, would that be better?
Originally Posted by WinterbornGuard
The core of both the BG series and D&D is that the character is yours. If Larian "designed" the game to be played with pregens as only true option than this game deserves to fail as it has missed the point.


Charname in BG 1 and 2 isnt YOUR character either. They have a pre-set backstory and origin (Bhaalspawn, Imoen's foster brother, adopted child of whatevr the mage guy is).
Posted By: Sunfly Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/10/20 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Sunfly

If you had actually read my chain instead of arguing for the sake of arguing you'd realize that your question was irrelevant to the context of my post.

I understood your point perfectly.
I then proceeded to challenge it using simple reasoning.

If you believe otherwise I welcome the explanation.


Simple reasoning that not only didn't relate to what I said but also didn't relate to what the people I was replying to said? I'm good. Going by your post history I can see why you teachers gave up on teaching you what a tangent is.
Originally Posted by Sunfly
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Sunfly

If you had actually read my chain instead of arguing for the sake of arguing you'd realize that your question was irrelevant to the context of my post.

I understood your point perfectly.
I then proceeded to challenge it using simple reasoning.

If you believe otherwise I welcome the explanation.


Simple reasoning that not only didn't relate to what I said but also didn't relate to what the people I was replying to said? I'm good. Going by your post history I can see why you teachers gave up on teaching you what a tangent is.

You stated that you did not understand his point about needing a cleric to which he replied that the main purpose of the class is to be healers and support. Your counter point to this was that there are consumables and other sources of healing to which I asked you if you don't think that one of the major classes of the game being, as you so eloquently put it, dead weight is not a matter of concern to you and something that needs addressing. This is a direct follow through on your reasoning using your own words. I'll not be enabling your insults if thats alright with you.'


Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg
Originally Posted by Argonaut

Have you considered that I don't want to play someone else's story? That I don't want to play Larians vision of the Hero's Journey but my version of the hero's journey? What reason would there be for this option to not be available to me if not the main focus of the game? If I make a custom character I am making that character to go on an adventure and it's my adventure. I want to be the hero. I don't think that is an unreasonable or big ask especially because it IS early access and now is the time where they can change it without having to retcon later.


I mean, they DO offer that. That is what the custom character is. They aren't going to remove the origin characters' stories just because you want to play El Generico and not have anyone interesting in the part. If they had a pre-prologue before the mind flayer abduction where you were made to fight some giant rats in the inn's cellar or however El Generico got his/her/their start, would that be better?

My comment was directly related to the person I quoted. Their own estimation was that a custom character does not feel as involved as the origin characters but was also motivated by how the companions are shoe horned in and played as main characters themselves. I didn't ask for any changes to be made, I asked for the option to be given to me to play my hero's story without having to play theirs. I will admit I should have probably expanded on this by asking for the choice to start without any of them and not have them show up in game. I am playing a custom character with a bunch of NPC's that have more interaction and tangible significance than my own. This is not the same thing.
Posted By: Sunfly Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 19/10/20 12:01 AM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Sunfly
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Sunfly

If you had actually read my chain instead of arguing for the sake of arguing you'd realize that your question was irrelevant to the context of my post.

I understood your point perfectly.
I then proceeded to challenge it using simple reasoning.

If you believe otherwise I welcome the explanation.


Simple reasoning that not only didn't relate to what I said but also didn't relate to what the people I was replying to said? I'm good. Going by your post history I can see why you teachers gave up on teaching you what a tangent is.

You stated that you did not understand his point about needing a cleric to which he replied that the main purpose of the class is to be healers and support. Your counter point to this was that there are consumables and other sources of healing to which I asked you if you don't think that one of the major classes of the game being, as you so eloquently put it, dead weight is not a matter of concern to you and something that needs addressing. This is a direct follow through on your reasoning using your own words. I'll not be enabling your insults if thats alright with you.'


Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg
Originally Posted by Argonaut

Have you considered that I don't want to play someone else's story? That I don't want to play Larians vision of the Hero's Journey but my version of the hero's journey? What reason would there be for this option to not be available to me if not the main focus of the game? If I make a custom character I am making that character to go on an adventure and it's my adventure. I want to be the hero. I don't think that is an unreasonable or big ask especially because it IS early access and now is the time where they can change it without having to retcon later.


I mean, they DO offer that. That is what the custom character is. They aren't going to remove the origin characters' stories just because you want to play El Generico and not have anyone interesting in the part. If they had a pre-prologue before the mind flayer abduction where you were made to fight some giant rats in the inn's cellar or however El Generico got his/her/their start, would that be better?

My comment was directly related to the person I quoted. Their own estimation was that a custom character does not feel as involved as the origin characters but was also motivated by how the companions are shoe horned in and played as main characters themselves. I didn't ask for any changes to be made, I asked for the option to be given to me to play my hero's story without having to play theirs. I will admit I should have probably expanded on this by asking for the choice to start without any of them and not have them show up in game. I am playing a custom character with a bunch of NPC's that have more interaction and tangible significance than my own. This is not the same thing.


Your reading comprehension already enables insults. At no point did I say it was desirable that a class should be dead weight, in fact I didn't make a judgement one way or the other at all because that wasn't what was being discussed. I was questioning the idea that clerics were essential party members as had been suggested. Whether or not that state is desirable was beyond the scope of anything that had been discussed in that chain but that didn't stop you from feeling the need to jump in with a tangent so you could keep boosting your post count like you've been doing throughout this whole thread. If you want to keep sealioning for the last word though then we can keep going like this.
Originally Posted by Sunfly

Your reading comprehension already enables insults. At no point did I say it was desirable that a class should be dead weight, in fact I didn't make a judgement one way or the other at all because that wasn't what was being discussed. I was questioning the idea that clerics were essential party members as had been suggested. Whether or not that state is desirable was beyond the scope of anything that has been discussed in that chain but that didn't stop you from feeling the need to jump in with a tangent so you could keep boosting your post count like you've been doing throughout this whole thread. If you want to keep sealioning for the last word though then we can keep going like this.

I never said you made any claims.
I never challenged your viewpoint.
I am confused as to how calling them dead weight and describing how you leave the cleric behind is not passing judgement but fair enough.
I asked you a simple question out of curiosity using your own words. Yes, I am quite involved with the discussion in threads that interest me and if you feel I made a superfluous post where I am not actively discussing the game please point them out and explain why to me and I will delete them. I never insulted you. I never insinuated anything negative about you. You have been hostile to me and have been denigrating me the entire time for asking you a question. Here is the question:

Originally Posted by Argonaut
The fact that one of the most central classes and one of the major classes of the game feels like dead weight doesn't bother you? I would consider that a red flag that needs immediate attention.

Please tell me how that warranted the extreme aggression you are displaying towards me.
+1 to OP, fully agree.

Speaking only to tone, not the mechanical issues, it is very super oppressive. There are only a handful of people encountered who I would want to quest for, or adventure with, although Wyll, the guy with a demon pact, seems like the nicest of the bunch. I don't feel any motivation to want to adventure with any of the party outside of necessity to get the tadpole removed, then I'd happily lone-wolf the game unless better party members come along. At present with what we've been given, I don't care about any of the premade adventurer's stories, I am using them to heal the tadpole then looking to bail if the option presents itself. I also am annoyed that apparently many random NPC's just can instantly sense you have an illithid tadpole in your head, I guess they got an advanced copy of the script for the game. These are not conducive to an engaging story, more like just oppressive, heavy handed, narration. The sense of freedom and choice vanishes when the game actively works against you doing other than what it wants you to (multiple skill checks to pass something the story doesn't want you to, but only one to fail it for example). This is the epitome of a crap DM, in that its railroading and its hand-waving to make the game do what it wants more than what the player wants.
Posted By: Sunfly Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 19/10/20 12:14 AM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Sunfly

Your reading comprehension already enables insults. At no point did I say it was desirable that a class should be dead weight, in fact I didn't make a judgement one way or the other at all because that wasn't what was being discussed. I was questioning the idea that clerics were essential party members as had been suggested. Whether or not that state is desirable was beyond the scope of anything that has been discussed in that chain but that didn't stop you from feeling the need to jump in with a tangent so you could keep boosting your post count like you've been doing throughout this whole thread. If you want to keep sealioning for the last word though then we can keep going like this.

I never said you made any claims.
I never challenged your viewpoint.
I am confused as to how calling them dead weight and describing how you leave the cleric behind is not passing judgement but fair enough.
I asked you a simple question out of curiosity using your own words. Yes, I am quite involved with the discussion in threads that interest me and if you feel I made a superfluous post where I am not actively discussing the game please point them out and explain why to me and I will delete them. I never insulted you. I never insinuated anything negative about you. You have been hostile to me and have been denigrating me the entire time for asking you a question. Here is the question:

Originally Posted by Argonaut
The fact that one of the most central classes and one of the major classes of the game feels like dead weight doesn't bother you? I would consider that a red flag that needs immediate attention.

Please tell me how that warranted the extreme aggression you are displaying towards me.


"You don't think (clear bad thing not being discussed) is bad? I'd find it bad personally."

Sealion.
Originally Posted by Sunfly
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Sunfly

Your reading comprehension already enables insults. At no point did I say it was desirable that a class should be dead weight, in fact I didn't make a judgement one way or the other at all because that wasn't what was being discussed. I was questioning the idea that clerics were essential party members as had been suggested. Whether or not that state is desirable was beyond the scope of anything that has been discussed in that chain but that didn't stop you from feeling the need to jump in with a tangent so you could keep boosting your post count like you've been doing throughout this whole thread. If you want to keep sealioning for the last word though then we can keep going like this.

I never said you made any claims.
I never challenged your viewpoint.
I am confused as to how calling them dead weight and describing how you leave the cleric behind is not passing judgement but fair enough.
I asked you a simple question out of curiosity using your own words. Yes, I am quite involved with the discussion in threads that interest me and if you feel I made a superfluous post where I am not actively discussing the game please point them out and explain why to me and I will delete them. I never insulted you. I never insinuated anything negative about you. You have been hostile to me and have been denigrating me the entire time for asking you a question. Here is the question:

Originally Posted by Argonaut
The fact that one of the most central classes and one of the major classes of the game feels like dead weight doesn't bother you? I would consider that a red flag that needs immediate attention.

Please tell me how that warranted the extreme aggression you are displaying towards me.


"You don't think (clear bad thing not being discussed) is bad? I'd find it bad personally."

Sealion.

You failed to explain what has warranted this aggression on your behalf and what your problem is with the question I asked you but I am beginning to notice a pattern here. I'm terribly sorry I don't talk like you, but rephrasing what I said didn't change what I asked at all.
Posted By: Sunfly Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 19/10/20 12:27 AM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Sunfly
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Sunfly

Your reading comprehension already enables insults. At no point did I say it was desirable that a class should be dead weight, in fact I didn't make a judgement one way or the other at all because that wasn't what was being discussed. I was questioning the idea that clerics were essential party members as had been suggested. Whether or not that state is desirable was beyond the scope of anything that has been discussed in that chain but that didn't stop you from feeling the need to jump in with a tangent so you could keep boosting your post count like you've been doing throughout this whole thread. If you want to keep sealioning for the last word though then we can keep going like this.

I never said you made any claims.
I never challenged your viewpoint.
I am confused as to how calling them dead weight and describing how you leave the cleric behind is not passing judgement but fair enough.
I asked you a simple question out of curiosity using your own words. Yes, I am quite involved with the discussion in threads that interest me and if you feel I made a superfluous post where I am not actively discussing the game please point them out and explain why to me and I will delete them. I never insulted you. I never insinuated anything negative about you. You have been hostile to me and have been denigrating me the entire time for asking you a question. Here is the question:

Originally Posted by Argonaut
The fact that one of the most central classes and one of the major classes of the game feels like dead weight doesn't bother you? I would consider that a red flag that needs immediate attention.

Please tell me how that warranted the extreme aggression you are displaying towards me.


"You don't think (clear bad thing not being discussed) is bad? I'd find it bad personally."

Sealion.

You failed to explain what has warranted this aggression on your behalf and what your problem is with the question I asked you but I am beginning to notice a pattern here. I'm terribly sorry I don't talk like you, but rephrasing what I said didn't change what I asked at all.


It's okay, I forgive you for being a seafaring mammal.
Originally Posted by Sunfly

It's okay, I forgive you for being a seafaring mammal.


cry

I hope you wake up feeling better.
OP, combat is super easy when you learn the game.
Nothing in this game is hard when you still have all the D:OS abuse around. So stop whining about difficulty already.
Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem
But this is a Larian game, if you are not playing an Origin Character, you are playing the game wrong. You would think having a custom character name show up as Tav would tell you everything Larian wants you to know about your character. The PC is not the hero of this story, we are the sidekick unless your choose to be a protagonists, i.e. an Origin Character.


How is the PC not the hero of the story whether you choose an Origin character or not? There are some heavy hints that the entire story arc is about whether you're going to accept the power of the Illithid tadpole and become a powerful evil force in the world, or resist it and fight the Mind Flayers.

Isn't that enough? It allows players to choose an Origin character or build a blank slate to follow that story line.
Originally Posted by Frumpkis
Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem
But this is a Larian game, if you are not playing an Origin Character, you are playing the game wrong. You would think having a custom character name show up as Tav would tell you everything Larian wants you to know about your character. The PC is not the hero of this story, we are the sidekick unless your choose to be a protagonists, i.e. an Origin Character.


How is the PC not the hero of the story whether you choose an Origin character or not? There are some heavy hints that the entire story arc is about whether you're going to accept the power of the Illithid tadpole and become a powerful evil force in the world, or resist it and fight the Mind Flayers.

Isn't that enough? It allows players to choose an Origin character or build a blank slate to follow that story line.



Because compared to Origin characters, Custom characters fall flat, and are just cardboard cutouts with zero personality or history. That was a major criticism of OS2 and it remains here. Too many resources go into making all these Origin characters playable and making it so you can see their story in "first person view", and Custom characters are left blank. It leaves a sour taste just calling the main character "custom". In every RPG it's just "main character" or a name, in this one its "oh custom". That to me just comes off weird and terrible. Because every Origin character can be played, they allll have to be special in some way, which means no one is special, and ofc...same goes for Custom even more. Custom is nothing.

Before you are on the ship, your character has zero history. Yes you get your "race" dialogues, but that's not unique. That's race dialogue, that's not YOUR character dialogue. They have no history and just "appear" out of nowhere when the game starts it looks like. Every CRPG does something to make the main character have some sort of background, a link to the world. Even pillars 1 (where u are a blank slate), has the character traveling to a new place and a mandatory NPC asks you for your reasoning, which gives your character a place in the world. An actual place, not some headcanon stuff and some elaborate history players can make. All CRPGS/RPGS do it. Even fallout NV (which is considered a damn good rpg by majority) has some backstory, like you being a courier, outside of that it's a clean slate.

I too feel the same about a lot of what you said.

1) I for one don't mind the hostility from the npc's. Its just a story, I like it. Who know's what the other Act's will hold

2) The battles suck, I have said this before in another post, It feels like every battle is played out by a champion chess player, meh no chaos , Every time the enemy goes right to the high ground and bombs my player characters with endless ranges weapons, Fire, acid , blindness, fear, after a few playthroughs i've really lost my taste for the game now.

3) I know this is EA , and this is to be expected, My characters will get skipped in the combat round.. I lost a entire 40 hr saved game, my search and completion of the underdark was lost.. that bummed me out. I know the game will be wiped anyway.. so there is that

Over all the game has had me enthralled. I guess my biggest fuss is the combat, and camera.









0
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Originally Posted by Frumpkis
Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem
But this is a Larian game, if you are not playing an Origin Character, you are playing the game wrong. You would think having a custom character name show up as Tav would tell you everything Larian wants you to know about your character. The PC is not the hero of this story, we are the sidekick unless your choose to be a protagonists, i.e. an Origin Character.


How is the PC not the hero of the story whether you choose an Origin character or not? There are some heavy hints that the entire story arc is about whether you're going to accept the power of the Illithid tadpole and become a powerful evil force in the world, or resist it and fight the Mind Flayers.

Isn't that enough? It allows players to choose an Origin character or build a blank slate to follow that story line.



Because compared to Origin characters, Custom characters fall flat, and are just cardboard cutouts with zero personality or history. That was a major criticism of OS2 and it remains here. Too many resources go into making all these Origin characters playable and making it so you can see their story in "first person view", and Custom characters are left blank. It leaves a sour taste just calling the main character "custom". In every RPG it's just "main character" or a name, in this one its "oh custom". That to me just comes off weird and terrible. Because every Origin character can be played, they allll have to be special in some way, which means no one is special, and ofc...same goes for Custom even more. Custom is nothing.

Before you are on the ship, your character has zero history. Yes you get your "race" dialogues, but that's not unique. That's race dialogue, that's not YOUR character dialogue. They have no history and just "appear" out of nowhere when the game starts it looks like. Every CRPG does something to make the main character have some sort of background, a link to the world. Even pillars 1 (where u are a blank slate), has the character traveling to a new place and a mandatory NPC asks you for your reasoning, which gives your character a place in the world. An actual place, not some headcanon stuff and some elaborate history players can make. All CRPGS/RPGS do it. Even fallout NV (which is considered a damn good rpg by majority) has some backstory, like you being a courier, outside of that it's a clean slate.


+1

This is also my main gripe with BG3 right now. To feel a little bit special you gotta play something like a drow and a cleric (from my experience that combo gets the most extra dialogue), cause indeed, your race and your class don't make up for your character's personal history and dialogue specific only to them. Hell, in POE, depending on what you picked - like a noble who's family got murdered, it would be referenced MULTIPLE times later in the game. It indeed made the PC unique. The PC had a place in the world. They did something long before they were run out or decided to make the journey across Eora to build up a new life elsewhere. Your companions even ask you what would you do once this is all over, what are your plans. In BG3 as of now the only companion that wants to know what you wanna do after the tadpole problem is dealt with is Astarion.. and to get that dialogue you gotta rest in camp multiple times and get Lae to speak to Zorru. You kill Lae? Oh, no extra content for you.

Also, I agree with most of what the OP has said. Aside from hard battles, in my book they aren't hard, just tedious. I wish Larian took some pages off of what Obsidian has done with POE, give us some sort of fast forward or something. Some battles got so many NPCs attached that waiting for your turn gets real boring real quick. Oh and I hate the surfaces with a passion. They belong in DOS1 and DOS2, not in a D&D game. At least not to this extent.
Surfaces wouldn't be so bad if I didn't get bombarded with grease and fire on round 1 half the time with those goblins.
Goblins are easy, you can use those some things against the goblins. Gale is great to have cause he has Grease and Sleep, and Astarion is just amazing when tackling goblins. Make sure you get the high ground, you get a higher chance to hit and higher chance to dodge/get hit less when up high smile.

Lae'zel also can learn abilities that give enemies Frightened status too. With these three you shouldn't have much trouble imo(I was able to clear every fight with these guys up) .

Originally Posted by FatePeddler
OP, combat is super easy when you learn the game.


You mean... when you exploit the game ? eek

(backstab + eating + surfaces + shove + jump + rest + advantages + ...)
Posted By: Knoland Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 19/10/20 05:17 AM
Just completed my first entire play through of the game...


First thoughts were hmmmm... Why only a handful of NPC?
Why only 4?
Why Do I feel like I missing something?

But then kept playing and figured out how the game works, why everyone is so hostile and why I’m feeling like something is missing.

We are.

We are missing our sanity from being Mind-Flayed...

We are hostile because of what happened and do not trust even our own minds...

We are becoming like the Mind-Flayers...

We are missing features and content as is intended....

So then I just will have to play it again when live and then judge it. But so far the style and story is fun and new. Still not sure what Bhaal Spawn connections there will be? The first two games are entirely about that and about how the surrounding NPC reaction to that plays out. So what I would like is this...

A big bad that is interesting that wants me dead (Sarevok, Jon Irenicus)

Some epic storyline that fits into the the first 2? (Drizzt to the rescue, Minsc and Boo!)

Some totally random storylines that have nothing to do with tadpoles and main arc.

Weapons and Armor from the first two games making a return. (Gauntlets of Ogre strength, Belt of Hillgiant,

Overall will still say I like it 4/5
Posted By: Okidoki Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 19/10/20 05:42 AM
Originally Posted by Doomlord


2) The battles suck, I have said this before in another post, It feels like every battle is played out by a champion chess player, meh no chaos , Every time the enemy goes right to the high ground and bombs my player characters with endless ranges weapons, Fire, acid , blindness, fear, after a few playthroughs i've really lost my taste for the game now.

0


Sucks to lose your stuff even in EA, i feel for you.

But as far as smart enemies goes, why wouldn't they take the high ground? Or rather why shouldn't they? Are goblins stupid, no they shouldn't be according to volo.

https://www.themonstersknow.com/goblinoids-revisited/ this is a pretty decent resource.


Posted By: Sharp Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 19/10/20 06:12 AM
Originally Posted by Grimo
As a long time DM, this game makes me furious. Not because I don't like a good challenge, but because it feels like the game is actively being inconsistent with 5e rules, punishing players and all-in-all making an environment hostile to players, especially those who want to play a heroic character.

- every. damn. NPC. hates you. Why? Why does this have to be so damn oppressive? Where is the levity, the gratitude, the derring-do? Why is everyone such a dick? It doesn't make me want to solve quests because the people who give them to me are such c- well, you know.


Compared to many of the companions in BG 1 and BG 2, I see them as an improvement. Aerie and Minsc get killed the moment I run into them, I absolutely loathed those companions from the prior games. Some of us prefer darker companions although they could definitely be written better than they are. This is definitely a personal taste thing and ideally there would be different companions for different tastes. Considering Larian has said they wanted data on the evil stuff, I would not be surprised if the good stuff does exist but its not included for the sake of early access testing.

Originally Posted by Grimo

- goblins have triple their MM health, loads of alchemists fire. It feels like the DM is cheating for no good reason.


The game is already fairly easy. I am playing it solo atm with a warlock to keep combat interesting. If they were to go with the default values, it would go from "fairly easy" to "I can fall asleep on the keyboard and still win the encounter." I feel like a lot of the complaining about these changes are from people who expect to be able to run head on into a fight and expect to win, instead of positioning tactically and taking advantage of terrain obstructions, bottle-necking enemies in tight corridors or differences in height.

Originally Posted by Grimo

- surfaces. surfaces everywhere. go away.

I like surfaces, they add an additional tactical layer to the game, however they could probably do with some additional balancing factors to make them better fit in the game.
Originally Posted by Grimo

- the game wastes my time with big 'set piece' battles like the one at the gates of the druid grove. Lots of NPCs fighting lots of NPCs. I can't ambush or anything because a cutscene forces me into combat so far away from the action I spend most moves running. Just use a cutscene, please.

There are only 2 large set piece battles in the EA. Either you attack the Goblin Camp, or you Attack/Defend the Grove (or you do both if you enjoy combat). Set piece battles, when used sparsely are imo fine and Larian has definitely used them sparsely.
Originally Posted by Grimo

- most fights are so difficult that you need party optimisation, which means you'll need to be a cleric or have shadowheart and that's that.

Demonstrably false, considering I am playing through the game with a single character. Take advantage of height differences, break line of sight, take stock of the environment and see what you can use to your advantage. Stand in dimly lit areas to lower your enemies chance to hit. The list goes on.
Originally Posted by Grimo

- picking on low-armor backline targets or knocked out ones. Seriously, I get that in real life monsters will probably do this, but in gameplay the reality is people are going to just give up trying to have low armored casters in their party at all.

I would rather have a good AI, which prioritizes targets in an intelligent manner, than a poor AI which does not. Right now the AI has a lot of flaws and the fact that the targets it picks are predictable is 1 of them. You know who they will go after? Well, take advantage of that. Put that target in hard to reach places, where enemies will need to take several attacks of opportunity to get to them. Make them bleed. There are many ways you can use that piece of information to your advantage.
Originally Posted by Grimo

- and after all this, theres... nothing. no loot. no helpful items. everything seems empty.

This game has great potential but right now it feels like it is a great adventure in the hands of a shitty neckbeard DM who hates you.

It is good that powerful items are rare and hard to come by. A rose in a rose garden does not stand out as much as a rose in a bed of weeds. By having powerful items being rare, it makes them that much more rewarding when you do actually get them.
Posted By: Okidoki Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 19/10/20 06:19 AM
Originally Posted by Sharp




Yes on everything
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
OP, combat is super easy when you learn the game.


You mean... when you exploit the game ? eek

(backstab + eating + surfaces + shove + jump + rest + advantages + ...)


How is using the game mechanics, "exploiting"? Do you want BG3 to be a JRPG where you load into a set battle arena?
Posted By: Zarna Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 19/10/20 06:55 AM
Originally Posted by Grimo
As a long time DM, this game makes me furious. Not because I don't like a good challenge, but because it feels like the game is actively being inconsistent with 5e rules, punishing players and all-in-all making an environment hostile to players, especially those who want to play a heroic character.

- every. damn. NPC. hates you. Why? Why does this have to be so damn oppressive? Where is the levity, the gratitude, the derring-do? Why is everyone such a dick? It doesn't make me want to solve quests because the people who give them to me are such c- well, you know.
- goblins have triple their MM health, loads of alchemists fire. It feels like the DM is cheating for no good reason.
- surfaces. surfaces everywhere. go away.
- the game wastes my time with big 'set piece' battles like the one at the gates of the druid grove. Lots of NPCs fighting lots of NPCs. I can't ambush or anything because a cutscene forces me into combat so far away from the action I spend most moves running. Just use a cutscene, please.
- most fights are so difficult that you need party optimisation, which means you'll need to be a cleric or have shadowheart and that's that.
- picking on low-armor backline targets or knocked out ones. Seriously, I get that in real life monsters will probably do this, but in gameplay the reality is people are going to just give up trying to have low armored casters in their party at all.
- and after all this, theres... nothing. no loot. no helpful items. everything seems empty.

This game has great potential but right now it feels like it is a great adventure in the hands of a shitty neckbeard DM who hates you.


I find most of the npcs are appropriately respectful, the rest don't usually last very long. smile So a lot of this probably depends on race and class. Right now, where are you going to find levity? How much sidetracking are you going to do for this gratitude? You have a tadpole in your head that needs to come out now before you are no longer you. Everyone else can wait unless they might be able to help you, even a good aligned player should recognise the dangers of what this tadpole is going to do and not want to inflict it on the world. If you are constantly running around for others right now then it becomes stupid like FO4 with the "my baby!! must find my baby!! but let me just solve all the problems in the world and save a lot of fools and build settlements and.... but my baby!!

Tactical play is best when dealing with the goblins, not a straight up fight. The health makes it tedious but not sure how to balance this otherwise.

I agree the surfaces thing is a bit much. Makes it too easy and certain cantrips too powerful. The effects should not last as long as they do either, especially after combat.

Could maybe move the trigger to when you get closer to the grove. Problem I have with big battles is the length of time, enemy turns take entirely too long.

Again, tactical play makes it much easier. Find the high ground as much as possible. Climb up somewhere and shoot the ladder behind you so no one can get to you. Even if they change the AI to be more realistic when they can't find the player, fights are entirely doable solo or at least without a cleric. Potions are easily found/bought, everyone can use scrolls, food is everywhere.

Targeting the mage or healer is logical. Mage Armour exists, use it or play a warlock or race with armour proficiency. Have your wizard save all the scrolls for it and use for big fights so they don't have to waste a spell slot.

Not sure what you consider good loot but my current character has a lot of really useful stuff that actually fits the concept I made for him.

I don't get the DM hating you feel at all from this, but I am used to having to come up with creative solutions to what look like no win solutions in pretty much all games rather than having everything predictable and easy. Things definitely have room for improvement however.
Originally Posted by Doomlord

2) The battles suck, I have said this before in another post, It feels like every battle is played out by a champion chess player, meh no chaos , Every time the enemy goes right to the high ground and bombs my player characters with endless ranges weapons, Fire, acid , blindness, fear, after a few playthroughs i've really lost my taste for the game now.
0

Yeah combat is way too much about racing to high ground and spamming arrows and bombs that leave surfaces. And exploiting the game against a superior enemy with free Shoves and backstabs.

Where is the battle that plays out "normally"? Where a tanky Fighter goes in first and HOLDS the front. Fighters don't draw any aggro much less hold anyone.

I don't like it how basically all the monsters have been given weapons that leave surfaces. Goblins have special arrows and bombs. Phase Spiders now have a ranged spit that leaves a large pool of poison. Because of course they do. Etc.
The fight in front of the druid grove is easy(with 4 characters)...

As you near the area your character even says you hear shouting. So, sneak up the hill and approach that way to investigate. It also gives you the high ground, making it a lot easier.

You can do this fight without losing a single NPC.
Originally Posted by Hachina
Originally Posted by VincentNZ
Originally Posted by Raflamir
An Eder-type companion would be great. He was so un-special and it was nice.


Yeah he was special in being so aggressively normal, something this game really lacks. Apart from the PC, who seems remarkably shallow compared to each and every companion who could rightfully be the protagonist of his own game.


He was normal but he had a hell of a backstory. His brother died in the war of the saint and he was sad about it, sad about Eothas demise and his loss of faith. Eder is a pillar, he is kind, compassionate, quiet, and listening. He play the roles of a tank. But these vulnerabilities, his past, the fact that you recruit him during the soulless child crisis near a hanged-man tree, all of this gives eder a dimension, a thickness, a feeling of realism. Its all in the writing, the character went through a lot. He may be ''normal'', but he has tons of experience, he has lived, and he talks about it.


My point precisely. He had a whole slew of issues, like we all have and that was relatable. That is stressful, yet he remains calm and focused and speaks about it. Meanwhile we have a vampiric elf and a powerful priest of an evil god and a guy possessed by a demon and Lae'Zel is probably the secret queen of all githyanki. Yeah, I am sure this is stressful, but what do I have to do with it? Why are you so on edge about it all the time? Why don't you want help and why don't you simply want to talk about it? Geez, these entitled people. It is like the people complaining about their life and the gas prices just to ride off into the sunset with their Porsche.
Posted By: CMF Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 19/10/20 11:53 AM
Constant feedback I keep seeing from the "og d&d/BG1&2" crowd is that the NPCs are mean to the player character...........
You are in a strange land, dropped off in a other dimensional ship, with catastrophic mind controlling worms manipulating everything, at the risk of turning into mindflayers themselves. Each companion NPC is stressed out, confused, and distrustful on if the others are brainwashed or about to turn.

It's not all peaches and cream and good games and high fives. Jolly good adventure, lets go to the pub and enjoy a mug. Fun times there hero, you are a hero, by the way did we mention how heroic you are?

The environment and setting is supposed to be distrustful with a slow bonding over time through trials and tribulations. You don't just start out best-ies from the start.

If anything, the casually light heartedness of Gale was refreshing, but he is also keeping secrets on his own. Wyll is friendly and ready to be your bro if you fight goblins with him. Astarion is that guy who is friendly to get what he wants. Lae'zel wants a man's man to show her strength, she don't take no scrubs. Shadowheart is just your classic tsundere anime waifu.

Too many times the shallowest of requests for Minsc and his damn hamster keep being brought up. Yes yes, go for the eyes..ha....ha...ha, so lovable.

Also, the stronger goblins are also apart of a new cult with magic imbued powers from the "almighty". This could explain the newfound strength and organization of the goblins.

Fights can take a while, but I find it rewarding due to the tactical input I can provide and it is much like a chess game. Old goldbox D&D games were also turn based, so I am comfortable with this long thoughtful combat.

Surface manipulation and awareness add to the situational awareness and tactical gameplay.

Fights are not overly difficult as long as you use all the advantages to your ability. Keep high ground, build proper combat builds and skills, proper positioning, don't be afraid to fall back and lure enemies to chokes and into rooms where line of sight is protecting your squishy backline. Use surfaces to limit enemy movement or force them to walk through damaging or crowd controlling effects.

Loot, there is actually a lot of loot and special items. If anything, having a power fantasy and getting super strong at level 4 is already an issue. Special items should be special, and normal gear should be maintained. Taking out a boss or finishing a big quest line would be ok to provide loot, but finding magic items aplenty on the vendors is a bit much, and so early too!

Posted By: Muthud Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 19/10/20 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
OP, combat is super easy when you learn the game.


You mean... when you exploit the game ? eek

(backstab + eating + surfaces + shove + jump + rest + advantages + ...)


How is using the game mechanics, "exploiting"? Do you want BG3 to be a JRPG where you load into a set battle arena?


Having to "use the game mechanics" like this is not fun. It breaks the immersion, it makes the game a bad rpg. You can do all things mentiond + loading to find the optimal approach - but it's in no way enjoyable to do. You can't fix bad game design with "using the mechanics". The game is supposed to be D&D, so let's make it so. Doing the above does in no way represent how an RPG should go (for you to beat the fights & advance the game).
Originally Posted by Muthud
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
OP, combat is super easy when you learn the game.


You mean... when you exploit the game ? eek

(backstab + eating + surfaces + shove + jump + rest + advantages + ...)


How is using the game mechanics, "exploiting"? Do you want BG3 to be a JRPG where you load into a set battle arena?


Having to "use the game mechanics" like this is not fun. It breaks the immersion, it makes the game a bad rpg. You can do all things mentiond + loading to find the optimal approach - but it's in no way enjoyable to do. You can't fix bad game design with "using the mechanics". The game is supposed to be D&D, so let's make it so. Doing the above does in no way represent how an RPG should go (for you to beat the fights & advance the game).


+1 but this abuse is derivative of Larians design philosophy. Hopefully they will not repeat the mistakes they made with DivOS2 or the indifference they had to balancing that game.
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
OP, combat is super easy when you learn the game.


You mean... when you exploit the game ? eek

(backstab + eating + surfaces + shove + jump + rest + advantages + ...)


How is using the game mechanics, "exploiting"? Do you want BG3 to be a JRPG where you load into a set battle arena?


Yea and you can eat an apple between 2 hit with your sword, you can jump like frogs to avoid damage, you can use a magic scroll when you never learn magic, you have more chance to hit a target with your bow if you're 50m away and higher... If you're 50m away but at the same level it's harder...

This is bad game design, so this is exploit.
I hope the majority of EA testers don't think like you^^
Originally Posted by Okidoki

Are goblins stupid, no they shouldn't be according to volo.

Well, Volo isn't exactly smart, himself.
Originally Posted by GloriousZote
Originally Posted by Okidoki

Are goblins stupid, no they shouldn't be according to volo.

Well, Volo isn't exactly smart, himself.

Volo is probably the most important NPC in all of FR and is the person who writes 99% of in game lore. Think of his as a self insert for anyone that has written or contributed to FRCS lore.
But isn't the appearance of Volo in a classical D&D setting usually meaning the DM wants to kill you? Isn't there a long running meme/joke about it too?
Most of the bad mechanical stuff is follow ons from changes they've made from the ruleset, again like a bad DM would, just a cascade of patches to their homebrew system that breaks the system they had that already worked

-Larian puts in goblin encounter
-Larian implements their height advantage/disadvantage system (giving a 3:1 advantage for the high creature)
-Goblins are now impossible to hit (the basic goblin in D&D has high AC and low hitpoints)
-Goblins have their AC reduced to 7 so players can hit them when they are elevated, because combat was too unfun missing over and over
-Larian introduces surface effects to everything
-Firebolt now kills goblins even if it misses them
-Triple the goblin HP
-Concentration spells are vastly nerfed by the fire surfaces created by enemies, you have a small chance of holding concentration if put in a fire field
- YOU ARE HERE -

this is just going to keep spiraling into more and more dev effort to patch problems of their own making
Originally Posted by override367
Most of the bad mechanical stuff is follow ons from changes they've made from the ruleset, again like a bad DM would, just a cascade of patches to their homebrew system that breaks the system they had that already worked

-Larian puts in goblin encounter
-Larian implements their height advantage/disadvantage system (giving a 3:1 advantage for the high creature)
-Goblins are now impossible to hit (the basic goblin in D&D has high AC and low hitpoints)
-Goblins have their AC reduced to 7 so players can hit them when they are elevated, because combat was too unfun missing over and over
-Larian introduces surface effects to everything
-Firebolt now kills goblins even if it misses them
-Triple the goblin HP
-Concentration spells are vastly nerfed by the fire surfaces created by enemies, you have a small chance of holding concentration if put in a fire field
- YOU ARE HERE -

this is just going to keep spiraling into more and more dev effort to patch problems of their own making

+1
Originally Posted by override367
Most of the bad mechanical stuff is follow ons from changes they've made from the ruleset, again like a bad DM would, just a cascade of patches to their homebrew system that breaks the system they had that already worked

-Larian puts in goblin encounter
-Larian implements their height advantage/disadvantage system (giving a 3:1 advantage for the high creature)
-Goblins are now impossible to hit (the basic goblin in D&D has high AC and low hitpoints)
-Goblins have their AC reduced to 7 so players can hit them when they are elevated, because combat was too unfun missing over and over
-Larian introduces surface effects to everything
-Firebolt now kills goblins even if it misses them
-Triple the goblin HP
-Concentration spells are vastly nerfed by the fire surfaces created by enemies, you have a small chance of holding concentration if put in a fire field
- YOU ARE HERE -

this is just going to keep spiraling into more and more dev effort to patch problems of their own making

+1
Worst thing is, surface effects would be fine in moderation, using the terrain to your advantage would be very fun that way, maybe enemies smarter than goblins could utilize such tactics, but these guys? come on, man!
I Have clocked 88 hours in the game so far, 3 playthrougs of EA with several "one shot" characters.

And I don't agree with much of what OP said.

I don't think characters are particularly hostile, some of them are, but hey look at the situation they are in?
The Setpiece battles aren't all that prevalent imo. But some combats have a lot of compatants, that's annoying at times.

Surfaces, sure need to be toned down imo. I would like to see 5e be followed more, but I don't really mind it.

As for combat difficulty:
First playthrough, 3 players, 3 character party, no cleric in the party, not at all optimized builds, managed fine.
You just need to learn the house rules of the game really, like what gives advantage and disadvantage. What items to stock up on etc. Could it be optimized? Sure
Goblins being better than MM? Have you never used custom creatures? Bog standard goblins get boring after a while. Most annoying thing about them is the surfaces, so if you tone that down, I think Goblins are just fine. Also most goblins have about 8-14 HP if I recall correctly. That put's the, at just 1-2 HP over MM.


Yes the game needs some balance tweaking, but I've enjoyed every 88 hours I've played.
Originally Posted by override367
Most of the bad mechanical stuff is follow ons from changes they've made from the ruleset, again like a bad DM would, just a cascade of patches to their homebrew system that breaks the system they had that already worked

-Larian puts in goblin encounter
-Larian implements their height advantage/disadvantage system (giving a 3:1 advantage for the high creature)
-Goblins are now impossible to hit (the basic goblin in D&D has high AC and low hitpoints)
-Goblins have their AC reduced to 7 so players can hit them when they are elevated, because combat was too unfun missing over and over
-Larian introduces surface effects to everything
-Firebolt now kills goblins even if it misses them
-Triple the goblin HP
-Concentration spells are vastly nerfed by the fire surfaces created by enemies, you have a small chance of holding concentration if put in a fire field
- YOU ARE HERE -

this is just going to keep spiraling into more and more dev effort to patch problems of their own making


The mess they’ve made with the basic rules are so overwhelmingly bad that now for the first time I wonder if that comments about being DOS3 which I used to hate wasn’t an overreaction at all.

Also, I’ve noticed that the only homebrew I really appreciate are those weapon skills.

Couldn’t enjoy the game so far
Posted By: cgexile Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 19/10/20 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
OP, combat is super easy when you learn the game.


This.

I mean I wiped out like half the goblin village by assassinating/1-shotting every goblin that.., I won't spoil it for ya but pay close attention to what the goblins are occasionally doing wink

I agree with the OP about you starting out with mostly a-holes. Gale and one other warms up to you quickly but yeah they are all pretty ungrateful for my efforts out of the gate.
For four days now I want to make another run with my newly gained knowledge on game mechanics and all the stuff I likely missed already (I read that there is a green headband that sets intelligence to 18 2 hours into the game, yet I never saw it), but since then I start the game and still find something else to do, like ironing my clothes.

I really have isues with the game and, while I see the potential and also think it is good, I just can not be bothered to play it more. That does say a lot.
Originally Posted by override367
Most of the bad mechanical stuff is follow ons from changes they've made from the ruleset, again like a bad DM would, just a cascade of patches to their homebrew system that breaks the system they had that already worked

-Larian puts in goblin encounter
-Larian implements their height advantage/disadvantage system (giving a 3:1 advantage for the high creature)
-Goblins are now impossible to hit (the basic goblin in D&D has high AC and low hitpoints)
-Goblins have their AC reduced to 7 so players can hit them when they are elevated, because combat was too unfun missing over and over
-Larian introduces surface effects to everything
-Firebolt now kills goblins even if it misses them
-Triple the goblin HP
-Concentration spells are vastly nerfed by the fire surfaces created by enemies, you have a small chance of holding concentration if put in a fire field
- YOU ARE HERE -

this is just going to keep spiraling into more and more dev effort to patch problems of their own making


+1
So while I completely respect the opinion of the OP...I disagree with most of what is said here. I just want to let my opinion be known so it doesn't seem like every player feels the same way.

- every. damn. NPC. hates you. Why? Why does this have to be so damn oppressive? Where is the levity, the gratitude, the derring-do? Why is everyone such a dick? It doesn't make me want to solve quests because the people who give them to me are such c- well, you know.

I don't get this impression at all. I read something similar in a published review. Even among your companions, the only ones that seem like they hate you are Lae'zel and Shadowheart IMO. Gale is actually pretty open with you and Wyll is basically the embodiment of "derring-do." I mean he even shouts his moniker in battle like he's freaking Zorro lol.

As for non-companions, I've had plenty of NPCs seem grateful after I helped them. They even threw a huge party for me.

Maybe it's just your playthrough that is giving you this impression?

- goblins have triple their MM health, loads of alchemists fire. It feels like the DM is cheating for no good reason.
- most fights are so difficult that you need party optimisation, which means you'll need to be a cleric or have shadowheart and that's that.
- picking on low-armor backline targets or knocked out ones. Seriously, I get that in real life monsters will probably do this, but in gameplay the reality is people are going to just give up trying to have low armored casters in their party at all.


All of these boil down to this being a computer game where you can save and reload, and not actual D&D where if you die, it's permanent (unless you get rezzed). Yes, the game is clearly tuned to be more difficult than actual D&D. But this is because it would be incredibly boring to play a game where you can just win every encounter without ever needing to save or reload.

Also, you really don't need a cleric. You can get downed people up with any party member, and it lets you eat food or drink potions as bonus actions.

- surfaces. surfaces everywhere. go away.

I don't get the hatred for surfaces. Yes, surfaces are like Divinity, yes, I get a lot of people don't like that for some reason. But surfaces actually make the game feel much closer to pen and paper D&D. In pen and paper D&D you can do creative things like cast an ice spell on a pool of water to try to freeze it, and if your DM allows, that can be a fun way to turn the tables. Surfaces let you actually pull off things like this in a game.

- the game wastes my time with big 'set piece' battles like the one at the gates of the druid grove. Lots of NPCs fighting lots of NPCs. I can't ambush or anything because a cutscene forces me into combat so far away from the action I spend most moves running. Just use a cutscene, please.

I agree, don't have lengthy NPC vs NPC battles.

- and after all this, theres... nothing. no loot. no helpful items. everything seems empty.

There does need to be some more loot, I'm hoping they add some.





Originally Posted by override367
Most of the bad mechanical stuff is follow ons from changes they've made from the ruleset, again like a bad DM would, just a cascade of patches to their homebrew system that breaks the system they had that already worked

-Larian puts in goblin encounter
-Larian implements their height advantage/disadvantage system (giving a 3:1 advantage for the high creature)
-Goblins are now impossible to hit (the basic goblin in D&D has high AC and low hitpoints)
-Goblins have their AC reduced to 7 so players can hit them when they are elevated, because combat was too unfun missing over and over
-Larian introduces surface effects to everything
-Firebolt now kills goblins even if it misses them
-Triple the goblin HP
-Concentration spells are vastly nerfed by the fire surfaces created by enemies, you have a small chance of holding concentration if put in a fire field
- YOU ARE HERE -

this is just going to keep spiraling into more and more dev effort to patch problems of their own making

You did it, you glorious bastard. That is the perfect summary of how Larian have changed the mechanics instead of balancing encounters and creating even exponentially more problems for themselves.
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by override367
Most of the bad mechanical stuff is follow ons from changes they've made from the ruleset, again like a bad DM would, just a cascade of patches to their homebrew system that breaks the system they had that already worked

-Larian puts in goblin encounter
-Larian implements their height advantage/disadvantage system (giving a 3:1 advantage for the high creature)
-Goblins are now impossible to hit (the basic goblin in D&D has high AC and low hitpoints)
-Goblins have their AC reduced to 7 so players can hit them when they are elevated, because combat was too unfun missing over and over
-Larian introduces surface effects to everything
-Firebolt now kills goblins even if it misses them
-Triple the goblin HP
-Concentration spells are vastly nerfed by the fire surfaces created by enemies, you have a small chance of holding concentration if put in a fire field
- YOU ARE HERE -

this is just going to keep spiraling into more and more dev effort to patch problems of their own making

You did it, you glorious bastard. That is the perfect summary of how Larian have changed the mechanics instead of balancing encounters and creating even exponentially more problems for themselves.


Yet many people will state that they’ve beaten the game with just one character and that’s all right. It’s doesn’t matter how many save scumming you’ve done, or how many cheesing you’ve used through battlefield exploration that was added intentionally by Larian to make you feel special and smart. In the end you’re not creative, all that marvelous tactics functions like your DM is playing for you.

I think many people judge the difficulty rate of a game my the amount of deaths you’ve accumulated through a campaign and how much you’ve loaded. I do think that every time I repeat a battle it gets less and less unique.
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Nothing in this game is hard when you still have all the D:OS abuse around. So stop whining about difficulty already.

what if we want to play the game how you play 5th edition and not abuse the larianisms
Originally Posted by Okidoki
Originally Posted by Doomlord


2) The battles suck, I have said this before in another post, It feels like every battle is played out by a champion chess player, meh no chaos , Every time the enemy goes right to the high ground and bombs my player characters with endless ranges weapons, Fire, acid , blindness, fear, after a few playthroughs i've really lost my taste for the game now.

0


Sucks to lose your stuff even in EA, i feel for you.

But as far as smart enemies goes, why wouldn't they take the high ground? Or rather why shouldn't they? Are goblins stupid, no they shouldn't be according to volo.

https://www.themonstersknow.com/goblinoids-revisited/ this is a pretty decent resource.




the problem is they had to give the goblins 3 times the hitpoints as a balancing mechanic for their unnecessary elevation system

I can't wait until we get level 9 and have a 35% chance to hit a dragon all the time

oh wait nevermind, flight doesn't actually fly in this game, because larian can't pull off what firaxis or indie game Solasta can
Originally Posted by override367
Originally Posted by Okidoki
Originally Posted by Doomlord


2) The battles suck, I have said this before in another post, It feels like every battle is played out by a champion chess player, meh no chaos , Every time the enemy goes right to the high ground and bombs my player characters with endless ranges weapons, Fire, acid , blindness, fear, after a few playthroughs i've really lost my taste for the game now.

0


Sucks to lose your stuff even in EA, i feel for you.

But as far as smart enemies goes, why wouldn't they take the high ground? Or rather why shouldn't they? Are goblins stupid, no they shouldn't be according to volo.

https://www.themonstersknow.com/goblinoids-revisited/ this is a pretty decent resource.




the problem is they had to give the goblins 3 times the hitpoints as a balancing mechanic for their unnecessary elevation system

I can't wait until we get level 9 and have a 35% chance to hit a dragon all the time

oh wait nevermind, flight doesn't actually fly in this game, because larian can't pull off what firaxis or indie game Solasta can


I wonder if Larian actually takes feedback in account, because so far the biggest change they’ve ever made was the durability of the weapons in DOS2
That’s their biggest example of how they changed due to customer based complaint.
Posted By: Okidoki Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 20/10/20 12:06 AM
Originally Posted by override367



the problem is they had to give the goblins 3 times the hitpoints as a balancing mechanic for their unnecessary elevation system



So goblins should have 7 hit points right?

Say a cleric starts with 10 or 11 hp. 10 being 8+con mod of 2. Then lets give them 2 levels at a 5 (which is avg given according the PH) and add 2 for con mod. So thats 10+7+7 = 24 HP. Wait havent we seen lvl 3 goblin clerics at 24 hp?

Take a note at the health pool of the goblins, especially in the ruined shrine courtyard where you found volo. They are level 1 humanoids who happen to have specific classes and can do what those classes present for the most part. So wouldnt it make sense that their Health increase while they level?

Or is that too difficult?
Originally Posted by Okidoki
Originally Posted by override367



the problem is they had to give the goblins 3 times the hitpoints as a balancing mechanic for their unnecessary elevation system



So goblins should have 7 hit points right?

Say a cleric starts with 10 or 11 hp. 10 being 8+con mod of 2. Then lets give them 2 levels at a 5 (which is avg given according the PH) and add 2 for con mod. So thats 10+7+7 = 24 HP. Wait havent we seen lvl 3 goblin clerics at 24 hp?

Take a note at the health pool of the goblins, especially in the ruined shrine courtyard where you found volo. They are level 1 humanoids who happen to have specific classes and can do what those classes present for the most part. So wouldnt it make sense that their Health increase while they level?

Or is that too difficult?


They're all higher hitpoint because they have much lower armor class, for two reasons: burning surfaces instakill 7hp goblins and normal AC goblins wouldn't be hittable from lower elevation by low level parties with the system larian has introduced
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by Doomlord

2) The battles suck, I have said this before in another post, It feels like every battle is played out by a champion chess player, meh no chaos , Every time the enemy goes right to the high ground and bombs my player characters with endless ranges weapons, Fire, acid , blindness, fear, after a few playthroughs i've really lost my taste for the game now.
0

Yeah combat is way too much about racing to high ground and spamming arrows and bombs that leave surfaces. And exploiting the game against a superior enemy with free Shoves and backstabs.

Where is the battle that plays out "normally"? Where a tanky Fighter goes in first and HOLDS the front. Fighters don't draw any aggro much less hold anyone.

I don't like it how basically all the monsters have been given weapons that leave surfaces. Goblins have special arrows and bombs. Phase Spiders now have a ranged spit that leaves a large pool of poison. Because of course they do. Etc.


Only exceptionally cruel and suicidal creatures, or incredibly tacticians should just laser focus your squishies

If I'm fighting hobgoblins, I want to see their commander yell "Kill *charactername*" and then they all target that person to death. If I'm fighting Maw Demons, them scuttling past my fighters to get to my back line is fine. If I'm fighting goblins? Yeah no, they should attack a lot less coordinated fashion

seriously if any DM ran this game like this the casters would quit
Posted By: Zarna Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 20/10/20 01:09 AM
Originally Posted by override367

the problem is they had to give the goblins 3 times the hitpoints as a balancing mechanic for their unnecessary elevation system

I disagree with elevation being unnecessary. This is useful for tactical advantage and for strategy planning with the godsawful camera angles. If the enemy AI had some intelligence then the health could be more in line with what it should be. They should move to look for a hidden player and not just stand there like idiots, maybe some should even run away if they take damage. If they know an enemy is somewhere in the rafters then they should use some kind of AoE attack up there to flush them out. This kind of behaviour would also help those that insist they will only play melee and rush in to a fight.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 20/10/20 01:33 AM
Originally Posted by Zarna
Originally Posted by override367

the problem is they had to give the goblins 3 times the hitpoints as a balancing mechanic for their unnecessary elevation system

I disagree with elevation being unnecessary. This is useful for tactical advantage and for strategy planning with the godsawful camera angles. If the enemy AI had some intelligence then the health could be more in line with what it should be. They should move to look for a hidden player and not just stand there like idiots, maybe some should even run away if they take damage. If they know an enemy is somewhere in the rafters then they should use some kind of AoE attack up there to flush them out. This kind of behaviour would also help those that insist they will only play melee and rush in to a fight.

I also like the tactics elevation offers, though I'd suggest that it gives a +2 instead of advantage. This allows you to have regular-AC goblins, as it will be possible (although still difficult) to hit them from low ground.

However, and I can't believe I'm going to say this, a problem with elevation is that enemies can't jump. Hear me out. At the goblin camp, I took my party to the upper levels (requires a jump, even if you sneak top right) and spent the remaining turns picking off the goblins on the ground who couldn't reach me. Every single turn, the ~10-15 goblins+ogre without ranged weapons took 20 seconds to think, then did nothing because there's no possible path to reach me without jumping. If BG3 allows PCs to reach otherwise-unreachable areas via jumping, then they also have to give enemies the ability to jump.

Or, much more preferably, make sure there is a non-jumping method of reaching every surface where a combat would feasibly take place. I really really really don't want every enemy to be a frog.
Posted By: Okidoki Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 20/10/20 01:58 AM
Originally Posted by override367


They're all higher hitpoint because they have much lower armor class, for two reasons: burning surfaces instakill 7hp goblins and normal AC goblins wouldn't be hittable from lower elevation by low level parties with the system larian has introduced


Are you sure about that?

Isn't it more likely that their HP is directly related to their class and level? Also their armor dictates some AC, some aren't wearing any, their Ac happens to be lower.

Where is your proof that they raised goblin HP because of surfaces?
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by FatePeddler
OP, combat is super easy when you learn the game.


You mean... when you exploit the game ? eek

(backstab + eating + surfaces + shove + jump + rest + advantages + ...)


How is using the game mechanics, "exploiting"? Do you want BG3 to be a JRPG where you load into a set battle arena?

because none of that series of actions has anything to do with how D&D is played.
Posted By: Zarna Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 20/10/20 02:44 AM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
However, and I can't believe I'm going to say this, a problem with elevation is that enemies can't jump. Hear me out. At the goblin camp, I took my party to the upper levels (requires a jump, even if you sneak top right) and spent the remaining turns picking off the goblins on the ground who couldn't reach me. Every single turn, the ~10-15 goblins+ogre without ranged weapons took 20 seconds to think, then did nothing because there's no possible path to reach me without jumping. If BG3 allows PCs to reach otherwise-unreachable areas via jumping, then they also have to give enemies the ability to jump.

Or, much more preferably, make sure there is a non-jumping method of reaching every surface where a combat would feasibly take place. I really really really don't want every enemy to be a frog.

Sad thing is that enemies will do nothing on their turns no matter what if you hide, not just if you have higher ground. I can duck behind a corner and they do absolutely nothing on their turns. Anything with half a brain would know where I went and act accordingly unless they are all too scared to follow? If this was the case then they should use this opportunity to make a tactical retreat, not stand there with their useless attempts to goad me into revealing myself.

I agree with you that more enemies should be able to jump. Some already do, like minotaurs who can jump much higher then the player. There are many combat areas with non jumping ways to reach elevation. Most of these you can destroy the ladder behind you, only seen a few types with infinite health.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 20/10/20 02:55 AM
Originally Posted by Zarna
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
However, and I can't believe I'm going to say this, a problem with elevation is that enemies can't jump. Hear me out. At the goblin camp, I took my party to the upper levels (requires a jump, even if you sneak top right) and spent the remaining turns picking off the goblins on the ground who couldn't reach me. Every single turn, the ~10-15 goblins+ogre without ranged weapons took 20 seconds to think, then did nothing because there's no possible path to reach me without jumping. If BG3 allows PCs to reach otherwise-unreachable areas via jumping, then they also have to give enemies the ability to jump.

Or, much more preferably, make sure there is a non-jumping method of reaching every surface where a combat would feasibly take place. I really really really don't want every enemy to be a frog.

Sad thing is that enemies will do nothing on their turns no matter what if you hide, not just if you have higher ground. I can duck behind a corner and they do absolutely nothing on their turns. Anything with half a brain would know where I went and act accordingly unless they are all too scared to follow? If this was the case then they should use this opportunity to make a tactical retreat, not stand there with their useless attempts to goad me into revealing myself.

I agree with you that more enemies should be able to jump. Some already do, like minotaurs who can jump much higher then the player. There are many combat areas with non jumping ways to reach elevation. Most of these you can destroy the ladder behind you, only seen a few types with infinite health.

That is true. Hopefully this height/hide auto-wins will be fixed when enemy AI is fixed. I agree that enemies should either search for you or retreat to safety when they can't find/reach you.

Yes, what everyone wants in this game is more minotaurs :P. And hmmm, do enemies ever destroy the ladder behind them? That could make for some rough encounters o.O
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 20/10/20 03:24 AM
Originally Posted by override367

They're all higher hitpoint because they have much lower armor class, for two reasons: burning surfaces instakill 7hp goblins and normal AC goblins wouldn't be hittable from lower elevation by low level parties with the system larian has introduced

This stuff was mostly debunked here: https://old.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat...lin_hpac_bloat_discussion_some_research/
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by Doomlord

2) The battles suck, I have said this before in another post, It feels like every battle is played out by a champion chess player, meh no chaos , Every time the enemy goes right to the high ground and bombs my player characters with endless ranges weapons, Fire, acid , blindness, fear, after a few playthroughs i've really lost my taste for the game now.
0

Yeah combat is way too much about racing to high ground and spamming arrows and bombs that leave surfaces. And exploiting the game against a superior enemy with free Shoves and backstabs.

Where is the battle that plays out "normally"? Where a tanky Fighter goes in first and HOLDS the front. Fighters don't draw any aggro much less hold anyone.

I don't like it how basically all the monsters have been given weapons that leave surfaces. Goblins have special arrows and bombs. Phase Spiders now have a ranged spit that leaves a large pool of poison. Because of course they do. Etc.




+1
Posted By: Hachina Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 20/10/20 05:19 PM
Originally Posted by VincentNZ
Originally Posted by Hachina
Originally Posted by VincentNZ
Originally Posted by Raflamir
An Eder-type companion would be great. He was so un-special and it was nice.


Yeah he was special in being so aggressively normal, something this game really lacks. Apart from the PC, who seems remarkably shallow compared to each and every companion who could rightfully be the protagonist of his own game.


He was normal but he had a hell of a backstory. His brother died in the war of the saint and he was sad about it, sad about Eothas demise and his loss of faith. Eder is a pillar, he is kind, compassionate, quiet, and listening. He play the roles of a tank. But these vulnerabilities, his past, the fact that you recruit him during the soulless child crisis near a hanged-man tree, all of this gives eder a dimension, a thickness, a feeling of realism. Its all in the writing, the character went through a lot. He may be ''normal'', but he has tons of experience, he has lived, and he talks about it.


My point precisely. He had a whole slew of issues, like we all have and that was relatable. That is stressful, yet he remains calm and focused and speaks about it. Meanwhile we have a vampiric elf and a powerful priest of an evil god and a guy possessed by a demon and Lae'Zel is probably the secret queen of all githyanki. Yeah, I am sure this is stressful, but what do I have to do with it? Why are you so on edge about it all the time? Why don't you want help and why don't you simply want to talk about it? Geez, these entitled people. It is like the people complaining about their life and the gas prices just to ride off into the sunset with their Porsche.


Yeah, I read your post and I totally agree with it, it was a very good point about Eder. However, one could argue that Eder had time to digest it and you're not not in a race when you meet him, unlike companions in BG3.
I'd prefer more discussion with BG3 character as well, after a whole act, I don't know them that well. I mean, some people talk when they re stressed, people aren't always secretive, so maybe one or two of them could talk more about their past. Will could talk about his adventure, Gayle about his studies and mystra, Lae'zel about the githyanki life, and Astarion about the Baldur's gate life or his duties as a slave. At the moment , its almost as if the character do not exist outside of their personal quest and secrets.


Note : They actually banter during travelling. Because english isn't my native language, and the action doesn't stop during banter, its harder to notice. Also, they may repeat often the same line (this may be due to early access and bug).
Posted By: ulric Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 20/10/20 09:45 PM
+1 to OP,
The fights just don't feel like D&D at the moment, because of all the things that have been taken over from DOS2.
Outside the fights hardly a minute of play passes without a skill check. I find the sheer number of these checks absolutely annoying.
And like many others, I find the current companions unsympathetic. I can hardly believe that these were created by the same company that created the Red Prince.
Disagree.

Ive had exciting, incredibly memorable fights, nearly all of them - and I love the surface dynamics. I dont find everyone is rude to us - but jeez, everyone is either newly tadpoled, under attack from goblins, or a malevolent race - we're in the middle of an emergency zone in act 1. What do you expect?! Dont worry, we'll have a nice cozy fireplace somewhere at some point for you to exchange pleasantries with a tavern maid in front of soon enough. *eyeroll*
To be perfectly honest, every CRPG is this to me and I still have fun with them. I'll let CRPGs slide on things I'd never accept from a tabletop game because of the limits of a computer.

But that said...I do hate some of the implementation of skill rolls. There are places where it feels like they replaced a dialogue puzzle with "roll a die" and it just feels frustrating and annoying when I run into that...especially in comparison to where they implement things well.
Originally Posted by ulric
+1 to OP,
The fights just don't feel like D&D at the moment, because of all the things that have been taken over from DOS2.
Outside the fights hardly a minute of play passes without a skill check. I find the sheer number of these checks absolutely annoying.
And like many others, I find the current companions unsympathetic. I can hardly believe that these were created by the same company that created the Red Prince.


+1
I'm sure this will get very boring pretty fast if they don't carefully manage each encounter instead of just lazily spamming ranged enemies ( Spells, Ranged Weapons, Throwables ) abusing high ground advantage. Don't forget the encounters are limited, we have no respawning enemies over here. That's why D:OS2 got incredibly boring after Driftwood, besides having 0% char progression since everything became a "Highest Initiative One Shot Wins" fest.
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
I'm sure this will get very boring pretty fast if they don't carefully manage each encounter instead of just lazily spamming ranged enemies ( Spells, Ranged Weapons, Throwables ) abusing high ground advantage. Don't forget the encounters are limited, we have no respawning enemies over here. That's why D:OS2 got incredibly boring after Driftwood, besides having 0% char progression since everything became a "Highest Initiative One Shot Wins" fest.


That's the thing, though. You need a working framework to make the game engaging outside of planned/scripted events... proper party/character management, expendable resources (camping supplies, ammunition, etc.), maybe crafting. D&D is not only about following a set story, moving from scene to scene, set piece to set piece, that's not role playing, that's storytelling.
Posted By: Okidoki Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 20/10/20 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
I'm sure this will get very boring pretty fast if they don't carefully manage each encounter instead of just lazily spamming ranged enemies ( Spells, Ranged Weapons, Throwables ) abusing high ground advantage. Don't forget the encounters are limited, we have no respawning enemies over here. That's why D:OS2 got incredibly boring after Driftwood, besides having 0% char progression since everything became a "Highest Initiative One Shot Wins" fest.


I wouldn't say its boring.

Maybe if you decided to make a lone wolf build where you really needed to one shot things to make it work, then sure i guess one shotting things was boring. It's also boring when you murder hobo everything before their "talk encounter begins." As far as character progression goes, I'd actually have to give you that one, i don't really remember all of their stories for the most part. (Doctor was adhramalehk, fane was special, prince...something about assasins, sebeille...was a slave?)

Monsters shouldn't respawn in places you have cleared, that feels like an exp farm to me.
Posted By: wpmaura Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 21/10/20 12:51 AM
+1
Originally Posted by Zarna
Originally Posted by override367

the problem is they had to give the goblins 3 times the hitpoints as a balancing mechanic for their unnecessary elevation system

I disagree with elevation being unnecessary. This is useful for tactical advantage and for strategy planning with the godsawful camera angles. If the enemy AI had some intelligence then the health could be more in line with what it should be. They should move to look for a hidden player and not just stand there like idiots, maybe some should even run away if they take damage. If they know an enemy is somewhere in the rafters then they should use some kind of AoE attack up there to flush them out. This kind of behaviour would also help those that insist they will only play melee and rush in to a fight.

5e already has a cover system.

Cover is easier to obtain at elevation, and harder to obtain at lower elevation.

Giving a 3:1 advantage/disadvantage is asinine, it's the single most important factor in any combat. It makes a low AC spectator as hard to hit as an Iron Golem or a Red Dragon is supposed to be, and it makes your platemail+shield character as easy to hit as a naked wizard. It also makes it impossible for your rogues to sneak attack a creature above them (this isn't hyperbole, sneak attack won't function in that circumstance, where as in D&D 5e, it would) Good luck if you planned on playing an Assassin.


Originally Posted by Thrythlind
To be perfectly honest, every CRPG is this to me and I still have fun with them. I'll let CRPGs slide on things I'd never accept from a tabletop game because of the limits of a computer.

But that said...I do hate some of the implementation of skill rolls. There are places where it feels like they replaced a dialogue puzzle with "roll a die" and it just feels frustrating and annoying when I run into that...especially in comparison to where they implement things well.


Almost none of the complaints have anything to do with the limitations of a CRPG

Changes from 5e like reducing the maximum range of attacks are a concession to a CRPG, because spell sniper eldritch blasts hitting things from across the map won't be workable.
Putting fire everywhere or making 5 feet of elevation confer a 3:1 advantage are deliberate design choices, not compromises.
Posted By: vel Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 22/10/20 01:05 AM
Originally Posted by Doomlord
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by Doomlord

2) The battles suck, I have said this before in another post, It feels like every battle is played out by a champion chess player, meh no chaos , Every time the enemy goes right to the high ground and bombs my player characters with endless ranges weapons, Fire, acid , blindness, fear, after a few playthroughs i've really lost my taste for the game now.
0

Yeah combat is way too much about racing to high ground and spamming arrows and bombs that leave surfaces. And exploiting the game against a superior enemy with free Shoves and backstabs.

Where is the battle that plays out "normally"? Where a tanky Fighter goes in first and HOLDS the front. Fighters don't draw any aggro much less hold anyone.

I don't like it how basically all the monsters have been given weapons that leave surfaces. Goblins have special arrows and bombs. Phase Spiders now have a ranged spit that leaves a large pool of poison. Because of course they do. Etc.




+1


+1 I really hope they change their height / elevation, surfaces, throwables.

I feel like I'm playing DOS King of the Hill Rush the Ladder Edition.

I was min/maxing exploiting this broken advantage mechanic - champion fighter on a highground with elven accuracy & sharpshooter & rolled stats would break the game with multiple attacks per round and crit fishing
You're exaggerating in almost every point. Which is fine to make a point but you just sound so aggressive towards the developers. The game is in a decent place overall (obviously needs some improvements)
Posted By: Grimo Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 22/10/20 04:07 AM
My intent was not to exaggerate, though I do tend towards the dramatic.

My core message is this: Swen mentioned in the first livestream that a game series that is historically RtWP was going turn based because it is more faithful to 5e. Now that EA is here, none of this feels like 5e. It feels like DOS.

I am not a rules purist. But if the intent of BG3 is supposed to be more than the cynical use of a revered brand name to make DOS3, then the spirit of the gameplay needs to change.

I am enjoying the companions a lot more now, but still feel like good natured or light hearted additions would help immensely.
Originally Posted by Grimo

My core message is this: Swen mentioned in the first livestream that a game series that is historically RtWP was going turn based because it is more faithful to 5e. Now that EA is here, none of this feels like 5e. It feels like DOS.


Sad but true...
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Grimo

My core message is this: Swen mentioned in the first livestream that a game series that is historically RtWP was going turn based because it is more faithful to 5e. Now that EA is here, none of this feels like 5e. It feels like DOS.


Sad but true...


Yup
Posted By: Zefhyr Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 22/10/20 08:19 AM
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Grimo

My core message is this: Swen mentioned in the first livestream that a game series that is historically RtWP was going turn based because it is more faithful to 5e. Now that EA is here, none of this feels like 5e. It feels like DOS.


Sad but true...


Yup


That's it. So true.

I found it pretentious when he said it and that it was "more strategic" but, cause I liked DOS2 I waited to see. Now I saw and i agree. This is more like a DOS3 with BG attire than a BG3.
Posted By: Abits Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 22/10/20 08:28 AM
Hight differences were never a huge part of dos battles
Posted By: Lynoa Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 22/10/20 09:03 AM
I join in and say: yes to everithing in the first post.
this game feels like no one likes you and after some time I don´t like anyone eather. thats not how I like to play. (yea I know I am the boring type trying to do good(chaotic good smile )
Every party member hides something and it is obviouse that they do, it gets really boring.
and he is wight with the cutscenes at the gate. have the fight I try to get to the fight... and after a massive battle, I get normal swords and bows, if i am lucky. It does not feel rewarding at all.
Originally Posted by Grimo
My core message is this: Swen mentioned in the first livestream that a game series that is historically RtWP was going turn based because it is more faithful to 5e. Now that EA is here, none of this feels like 5e. It feels like DOS.


100% agree with you on that.
It feels so much like DoS it actually cancels out the nostalgic feeling I want to feel playing a BG game. Also, it significantly hurt the emotional connection I'm having with the game based on my familiarity with 5e.
Originally Posted by Abits
Hight differences were never a huge part of dos battles


Are you really sure?? DOS2 increased damage when shooting from high ground. Marksman skill increased that trait even more.

Nevertheless, would BG3 have decided to add 2raw damage instead of an advantage, the game would be way more close to DnD5e
Originally Posted by Grimo
My intent was not to exaggerate, though I do tend towards the dramatic.

My core message is this: Swen mentioned in the first livestream that a game series that is historically RtWP was going turn based because it is more faithful to 5e. Now that EA is here, none of this feels like 5e. It feels like DOS.

I am not a rules purist. But if the intent of BG3 is supposed to be more than the cynical use of a revered brand name to make DOS3, then the spirit of the gameplay needs to change.

I am enjoying the companions a lot more now, but still feel like good natured or light hearted additions would help immensely.



Considering how much feedback they are getting on "be more like 5e" I think we'll see some changes coming. Most of those changes shouldn't be difficult to make either. Make all the combat bonus actions into actions, easy.
Give rogues more cunning actions back, also should be easy.
Tone down surfaces and make spells more true to their origins: should be easy.

And this is EA, I think they should try it out, and we can see how it works out.
Haven't played the game yet, but was looking around to see how the game is coming along. This thread stood out to me, as the problems it adresses are very similar to the problems I had with DOS2. So first I got some questions for those still playing EA:
Have there been many changes to the game mechanics around the height advantage?
Are surfaces toned down yet?
Are most battles still setup as an ambush where you win by using meta knowledge to setup your party beforehand?
Can you also move around your characters while one talks to get very silly pre-fight advantages?
Are battles much faster than DOS2? I would've been fine with DOS2 combat, if it was more snappy. I would really like to see moves and animations sped up, like in fire emblem for example.

I'll also give my cup of tea on these subjects.

Surfaces are a great idea, but there's a tendency to overuse the concept. Many things, like sand or green grass, shouldn't catch fire easily. Are enemies standing in dry grass? Then it should catch fire, so throwing a fire bolt at the ground is cool. Same with electrocuting water. It's really cool if you can pull enemies through a river and use electricity on it. It's not cool when you always have a bunch of water balloons to make this happen. Surface effects should be used to make certain situations more memorable, rather than making it always the dominant strategy.

There is an inherent advantage to being on high ground, that negates the need for also giving advantage. D&D 5e already has a cover system. Often times, being on high ground will allow you to shoot at enemies over their cover. The high ground might allow you to target the enemy, or have their cover be less effective. Additionally, looking up at someone can give cover to that person, at which point it also matters how near you are to the cliff. This would make much more sense than just giving straight up advantage to attack rolls. So everyone saying that high ground being advantageous makes sense... It does, and a DM can use the cover system to simulate that. Additionally, giving advantage so often diminishes a lot of other abilities. Ranged is already highly advantageous, even in 5e. It's often harder to get advantage than it is for melee characters though.

In terms of difficulty it's important to understand the role of short and long rests. During an adventuring day, you use up resources. This allows a DM to have encounters that aren't super-deadly, while still putting pressure on the players. Not sure about BG3, but in DOS2 you could rest up at all times. This makes it so that you have to go full-nova every battle. That then means all encounters need to be superdifficult to challenge the players. Were you expending resources, the question would be:"Will I go all the way back to town/out of the dungeon for a long rest, or can I continue on a short rest?" This creates a sort of variable difficulty. A player having trouble can take a bunch of extra time (fail state that's not so frustrating) to rest up, which will feel less like an exploit than pre-positioning with meta knowledge. The player confident in their tactical prowess can go through the whole dungeon with short rests and still get challenged. By doing this, you'd need way less of the extremely swingy battles, where the outcome is usually decided by the initial positioning.


My personal opinion is that Larian has a really hard time understanding the importance of contrast. They have amazing ideas and then use them so much that it gets old quick. They also have a tendency to sort of railroad the player through optimal strategies, where you constantly do the same thing, cus it's just always better than all other options. It's cool to find some high ground that is hard for enemies to get to sometimes and use that to your advantage, but if every battle that is the best thing to do, it's boring. It's cool to find an oil barrel at the magical oil refinery and figure out how you'll steal it and carry that along with you to blow some goblins up. It's boring (and immersion-breaking) when there are random oil barrels everywhere.


I'm very curious how BG3 is coming along, but cautiously optimistic. I hope someone can answer these questions.
Originally Posted by Dabedidabe
Haven't played the game yet, but was looking around to see how the game is coming along. This thread stood out to me, as the problems it adresses are very similar to the problems I had with DOS2. So first I got some questions for those still playing EA:
Have there been many changes to the game mechanics around the height advantage?
Are surfaces toned down yet?
Are most battles still setup as an ambush where you win by using meta knowledge to setup your party beforehand?
Can you also move around your characters while one talks to get very silly pre-fight advantages?

- nothing has changed with Highground and backstab advantage yet.

- surfaces have been towned down A BIT, but there are still huge issues (concentration, damages even if the attack miss,...)

- all battle are VERY hard without metagaming / attacking non hostile creatures before the combats start.

- yes, you can talk with a character to freeze a group of creatures, position the 3 others without a threat than close the dialogs to start combats with better positions.
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
- all battle are VERY hard without metagaming / attacking non hostile creatures before the combats start.
xD
Posted By: Niara Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 16/06/21 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by Dabedidabe
Have there been many changes to the game mechanics around the height advantage?
Are surfaces toned down yet?
Are most battles still setup as an ambush where you win by using meta knowledge to setup your party beforehand?
Can you also move around your characters while one talks to get very silly pre-fight advantages?
Are battles much faster than DOS2? I would've been fine with DOS2 combat, if it was more snappy. I would really like to see moves and animations sped up, like in fire emblem for example.

To confirm with Max,

-No, it's just as it was, no change
-Not much; two cantrips had their surface generation effect taken away, that was about it.
-Yes, that's still very much a thing that is encourage, and going in 'normally' almost always leaves you at a dramatic disadvantage otherwise.
-Yes, you can still do this; you can also do it by getting one person into combat while the rest are far away and then sneaking them in while the combat is 'frozen'. Not only is this it a thing, but it's somethign that Swen is particularly excited about abusing and exploiting, and loves as a 'feature'... it's part of his game design 'philosophy' in fact, so it seems unlikely to change.
[quote]
To confirm with Max,

-No, it's just as it was, no change
-Not much; two cantrips had their surface generation effect taken away, that was about it.
-Yes, that's still very much a thing that is encourage, and going in 'normally' almost always leaves you at a dramatic disadvantage otherwise.
-Yes, you can still do this; you can also do it by getting one person into combat while the rest are far away and then sneaking them in while the combat is 'frozen'. Not only is this it a thing, but it's somethign that Swen is particularly excited about abusing and exploiting, and loves as a 'feature'... it's part of his game design 'philosophy' in fact, so it seems unlikely to change.[/quote]

My thanks to you and Maximuuus for the quick reply. Not that happy with the answers though. xD Gonna be very dissapointed when it actually releases. D:

They have some "design philosophies" that really hurt the game's quality and most of all immersion. I really expected all these problems would be fixed, because they had a good ruleset to use. But when you just start homebrewing willy nilly with a complete disregard to game balance... /sigh
At the moment it looks like they'll use their old receipe for every games but maybe they'll finally realize that other IP may be better with a different taste.

That's what a lot of us here still hope. Without this hope a lot of fans here wouldn't be fans anymore^^
Posted By: Thomson Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/06/21 12:29 AM
Originally Posted by Niara
-Yes, you can still do this; you can also do it by getting one person into combat while the rest are far away and then sneaking them in while the combat is 'frozen'. Not only is this it a thing, but it's somethign that Swen is particularly excited about abusing and exploiting, and loves as a 'feature'... it's part of his game design 'philosophy' in fact, so it seems unlikely to change.
The entire game design 'philosophy' looks like a dreaded hippo to me (highest payed persons opinion).

That is why basically all feedback is ignored and we will get the greatest game about high ground jumping and barrelmancy ever created, since that is awesome and nobody cares about sword and sorcery anymore.

The best thing about BG3 I can currently say is that I read about Solasta here and I had a ton of fun playing that game.

P.S.: The first game I played was on a monochrome display on the Ohio Scientific Challenger, so I can live with second rate graphics. But what I want is a game mechanic that I enjoy.
[quote=Thomson]
The entire game design 'philosophy' looks like a dreaded hippo to me (highest payed persons opinion).

That is why basically all feedback is ignored and we will get the greatest game about high ground jumping and barrelmancy ever created, since that is awesome and nobody cares about sword and sorcery anymore.

The best thing about BG3 I can currently say is that I read about Solasta here and I had a ton of fun playing that game.

P.S.: The first game I played was on a monochrome display on the Ohio Scientific Challenger, so I can live with second rate graphics. But what I want is a game mechanic that I enjoy.[/quote]

Solasta is a bit jank in places, but at least the DnD 5e implementation is well done. I don't mind the graphics either. I also love the visual clarity with the grid system, which was definitely a problem in DOS2 and I assume from what I've seen, in BG3 too.

The creative freedom Larian provides with several things are great ideas for the most part. Just the implementation... ehhh. Most "creative" solutions feel like exploits. It didn't make me feel smart, it felt like I was cheating. Getting ambushed and insta-killed, after which I load and setup with my meta knowledge feels like cheating if anything. Keeping a dialogue box open and positioning everyone left a bad taste.

I don't necessarily mind barrelmancy so much, as it's an exploit that seems like an oversight more than by design. Also, it's not likely you'll start using it by the third battle, as with most other exploits/"clever strategies".
Originally Posted by <Redacted>
<Redacted>

Yeah, that's pretty much DOS2 combat in a nutshell.

Whoever said they were able to defeat that damn scarecrow by simply walking up to her and starting the fight there is a liar. Same for Alexander at the end of Act 1. Then again, the game by that point really drills it into your head that you're a dumbass if you're not stealth alpha striking every encounter, which is the entire point of being able to see potential enemies from so far away. The more I played the game in Tactician mode, the more I realized that each battle was more of an elaborate puzzle of how I could take control of the fight immediately and maintain control.

BG3 feels the same way to me. The main difference is that you're lacking the tools that DOS2 gave you to regain control of a fight if something goes awry, and combat fields are even larger and more vertical than they were in DOS2. A bad dice roll in regular DnD is an unfortunate occurrence that your team suddenly has to adapt to. A bad roll in BG3 can immediately spiral into a wipe (especially if it's shove-related), and if your plan placed all bets on that one roll succeeding, you're probably shit out of luck.

The problem with continuing to design the combat like this is that it runs counter to the idea of having deeper character interaction mechanics that DOS2 did not have (in some cases you're just making it a lot harder on yourself by talking to that boss instead of ambushing them immediately, but you'll miss out on all that interesting dialogue and skill checks you'll want to make!). People ask for skill checks to be shared among the party, but what's the point if the following combat encourages you to keep the party split up? Are party members going to interject and assist in skill checks from halfway across the map? It's super immersion-breaking and I'm sure Larian has already run into this exact concern.

Strangely enough, DOS1 actually didn't give off this feeling at all, even though you had a lot of similar tools there. I suppose the main difference is that the game wasn't balanced around the idea that you'd be playing so dirty that it's basically mandatory.
Posted By: Niara Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/06/21 10:00 AM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
It's super immersion-breaking and I'm sure Larian has already run into this exact concern.

Unfortunately, the problem here is that the concept of immersion is completely detached and alien from anything related to encounters and combat, for Larian. Worse - given the comments we've seen and the jokes that get made, they (or at least Sven and by extension the team) are aware that so much of their game design is complete anathema to immersion; they simply don't care, because it's not an important consideration to them, not as much as the other things they're putting ahead of it.
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Strangely enough, DOS1 actually didn't give off this feeling at all, even though you had a lot of similar tools there. I suppose the main difference is that the game wasn't balanced around the idea that you'd be playing so dirty that it's basically mandatory.
Because the ways DOS1 and 2 approach combat are actually very different. DOS2 places too much emphasis on pre-positioning enemies, providing high grounds in too many fights just so enemy mages/archers can get on (which is, of course, what these enemies spend their very first action to do). If it's not high grounds, then it's oil barrels and other things that are only waiting for enemies to use against you. DOS2 also eliminated the "skill check" system, meaning a character without armor is guaranteed to be disabled. This naturally leads to you doing the same things enemies do - pre-positioning your own team, getting on high grounds yourself, etc. - and more, in order to balance the scale. You can tell that the devs really wanted you to follow these strats, because it is these very elements that set their game apart from other, similar games, and they take pride in these home rules. I, for one, wish they had stuck with DOS1's combat design.
Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
It's super immersion-breaking and I'm sure Larian has already run into this exact concern.

Unfortunately, the problem here is that the concept of immersion is completely detached and alien from anything related to encounters and combat, for Larian. Worse - given the comments we've seen and the jokes that get made, they (or at least Sven and by extension the team) are aware that so much of their game design is complete anathema to immersion; they simply don't care, because it's not an important consideration to them, not as much as the other things they're putting ahead of it.

Don't mind me, I'm just generally using the 'immersion' argument partly to highlight the detached absurdity between the serious effort spent on character interactions and cutscenes, while the combat may encourage you to ignore it in the same breath against certain encounters. But it's mostly to mock people I've seen who don't want to entertain something like how Solasta handles reactions because of it, when the entire combat system itself as it is currently designed already buries the concept of immersion six inches under the ground.
Posted By: earl45 Re: BG3 rn feels like playing with a sh*t DM - 18/06/21 04:00 PM
Seems the original comment in the thread focused on the desire to be heroic. Agreed.

My suggestion to Larian would be create and allow for more:
- heroism
- anti-heroism (perhaps with new classes? see also Petersen Games)
- nefarianism (you know what I mean?). DOS2 did a pretty good job of making evil NPCs pretty evil, diabolical
- a feeling of the mystic (both the diabolic and otherwise - I do get that this is in the works, particularly w/NPC backgorunds but just more please)
- humorous (I realize that it is early days but seems BG3 could use some of the BG2 humor, always an important ingredient in a good D&D session)
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