Larian Studios
Posted By: ExperThies Save Scumming - 20/10/20 08:46 PM
Hello,
Being able to save at any moment can be nice, especially when you want to try out different outcomes or if you want to see if you can jump off of the nautiloid. However, being able to save at any moment also rewards saving after almost every step. I hit the enemy in battle, I save. I know that some people like that option. The issue is that it really takes away from the D&D feel of the game. Your decisions do not matter if you can just reload the save. I suggest having different difficulty options when you create the game. Easy-you can save whenever and wherever and there are auto saves, Normal- there are only autosaves (which you need more of by the way), Hard-the game only saves when you rest at camp, and Real D&D where the game only saves when you quit the game and will only load that save once. If there are other good ideas or you like these ideas, please discuss them. The save scumming is real and, in my opinion, a big problem if the game is trying create the feel of a real D&D campaign.
Thank you.

Posted By: Thrythlind Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 08:53 PM
This seems more of a personal thing than a game thing. At most make a difficult option that cuts down on saves. But really, for some people this will ruin the feel of the game for themselves and for other people it won't.

I understand temptation to do such things even when you know it'll ruin your experience so I can see why some people would want to turn the option off for themselves. But at the same time, having to redo a long sequence from the beginning for some people can just add to feelings of frustration and ruin the game for them. So getting rid of it entirely is going to ruin things for some people and keeping it will annoy others...so best option is to make it an option.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 08:55 PM
This has been discussed at length here, and it is possible that Difficulty Levels will implement some sort of restriction on the number of saves.

As for not being true to the D&D feel, that might be true if you have a particularly harsh GM, but in my experience most will be pretty lenient where a potential character death is concerned. A CRPG can't recreate the human touch, so you don't get a GM raising his eyebrows and asking if you are sure you want to pickpocket the Lich you are chatting with, or pointing out that trying to climb the cliff is almost certainly going to lead to your being smashed onto sharp rocks.

Saving frequently also allows for issues with software and interaction with a computer-generated world. Obviously you wanted to shoot the oil barrel in the middle of the goblins rather than the one next to the party, but your finger slipped or the game hiccupped and BOOM.

I would also point out that, in a PnP game, a character dying means creating a new character (usually at the same level as the old one) and picking up more-or-less where you left off (albeit at a suitable place for the character to be introduced). In a CRPG it means having to play through from the beginning again (or last save).
Posted By: biomag Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 09:02 PM
I do have to ask - what do you care what others to with the game? People save scumming does not affect you at all, but limiting saves would affect others.


Personally I want as few save limitations as possilbe. I don't have endless time to play games and I like to be able to save and stop playing when real life interferes, not being forced to replay certain parts again just because I had to leave a game.


At the same time nothing prevents me from accepting results or forces me to abuse the save system. If I want the D&D feeling I can have it. No need to force this limitation on others.
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 09:06 PM
Simple answer - don't do it if you don't want to. It's one of those non issue things and having options is better.
Posted By: Xeneize Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 09:07 PM
I agree. Let the option be; and if you personally do not want to make use of it then that is fine smile
Posted By: denhonator Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 09:19 PM
During early access it's very important to be able to freely save/load. For full release, I agree that save scumming would take away from the experience and hopefully they find a way to discourage it. I do also think that in a game where you can mess everything up real fast (accidentally attack someone in town for instance), it's important to have frequent saves and it's generally better to give players control over it than rely on an autosave system.

Personally I didn't feel a need to save scum as I knew there would always be alternatives when I chose or rolled poorly in dialog for example. I never felt like I was screwed, it just got me into a different scenario.

One interesting solution would be to have the game save your dialog choices and skill checks in a per character file that's separate from story progress and have it autosave after every choice and roll. So even if you go back to an older save, this "dialog save" would remember how a dialog went and force it to repeat.

And have this be optional of course, because I 100% understand people wanting to get a particular outcome or trying different options just to see all the content.

This reminds of Mount & Blade, which asks the player if it should be allowed to quit without saving. If not, you can make saves, sure, but to load a save you have to save & exit, overwriting the previous save. Of course you could alt f4, but it did encourage you to live with the consequences. That method does have the weakness of no save slots however.
Posted By: ExperThies Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 09:23 PM
I would like to be able to play a version of the game where your decisions actually matter. Additionally, I agree that in an actual D&D campaign you can create a new character and rejoin the party and I think that is a great suggestion and should be an option in this game.
Posted By: brunotavm Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 09:26 PM
+1 we want a game mode were dice rolls matter
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by ExperThies
I would like to be able to play a version of the game where your decisions actually matter. Additionally, I agree that in an actual D&D campaign you can create a new character and rejoin the party and I think that is a great suggestion and should be an option in this game.

There's nothing stopping you from doing that, except you. Well, not the new character bit, but the "not saving every step". I don't save every step, and I think saving during combat shouldn't be a thing, so I don't save during combat, to the point where I'm not even sure you can, because I haven't tried. I do save before encounters though, more because I don't want to go back however long since my last save than due to any need to achieve the perfect outcome. I figure that that's what new characters are for.
Posted By: Blade238 Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 09:39 PM
Originally Posted by ExperThies
I would like to be able to play a version of the game where your decisions actually matter. Additionally, I agree that in an actual D&D campaign you can create a new character and rejoin the party and I think that is a great suggestion and should be an option in this game.

And taking away the ability to save would make decisions matter? Other people having the ability to save in an RPG would have zero barring on this. You could, 1.) Not make use of the convenient feature 2.) Ask for changes in other aspects of the game to make decisions carry more weight. Ultimately me saving my game so that when it crashes or when it glitches out or even if I want to reroll something to explore different choices ("save-scumming") has zero impact on your purchase or gameplay.

To use a fallacy: I could easily suggest you shouldn't have the option of using revivify or reloading a save on death or when the game bugs out or even starting a new game, because then decisions won't actually matter. There's only one chance in life after all. *shrugs*
Posted By: brunotavm Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by ExperThies
I would like to be able to play a version of the game where your decisions actually matter. Additionally, I agree that in an actual D&D campaign you can create a new character and rejoin the party and I think that is a great suggestion and should be an option in this game.

There's nothing stopping you from doing that, except you. Well, not the new character bit, but the "not saving every step". I don't save every step, and I think saving during combat shouldn't be a thing, so I don't save during combat, to the point where I'm not even sure you can, because I haven't tried. I do save before encounters though, more because I don't want to go back however long since my last save than due to any need to achieve the perfect outcome. I figure that that's what new characters are for.


i don't see the problem with having a mode with more restrictions, the author of post clearly don't want this to be a thing in normal mode, ironman modes are quite common, there's a mode in DOS2 that deletes your save game if everyone dies
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by ExperThies
Hello,
Being able to save at any moment can be nice, especially when you want to try out different outcomes or if you want to see if you can jump off of the nautiloid. However, being able to save at any moment also rewards saving after almost every step. I hit the enemy in battle, I save. I know that some people like that option. The issue is that it really takes away from the D&D feel of the game. Your decisions do not matter if you can just reload the save. I suggest having different difficulty options when you create the game. Easy-you can save whenever and wherever and there are auto saves, Normal- there are only autosaves (which you need more of by the way), Hard-the game only saves when you rest at camp, and Real D&D where the game only saves when you quit the game and will only load that save once. If there are other good ideas or you like these ideas, please discuss them. The save scumming is real and, in my opinion, a big problem if the game is trying create the feel of a real D&D campaign.
Thank you.



There is likely to be some sort of iron man mode in the final version. Other than that, no. Difficulty should not restrict saving. If you don't want to save, develop some willpower.
Posted By: sethmage Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by ExperThies
Hello,
Being able to save at any moment can be nice, especially when you want to try out different outcomes or if you want to see if you can jump off of the nautiloid. However, being able to save at any moment also rewards saving after almost every step. I hit the enemy in battle, I save. I know that some people like that option. The issue is that it really takes away from the D&D feel of the game. Your decisions do not matter if you can just reload the save. I suggest having different difficulty options when you create the game. Easy-you can save whenever and wherever and there are auto saves, Normal- there are only autosaves (which you need more of by the way), Hard-the game only saves when you rest at camp, and Real D&D where the game only saves when you quit the game and will only load that save once. If there are other good ideas or you like these ideas, please discuss them. The save scumming is real and, in my opinion, a big problem if the game is trying create the feel of a real D&D campaign.
Thank you.



so... you just want to force on everybody playstyle you approve of, did i get that right?
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 10:02 PM
Yeah, like Sadurian when I DM'd I would fudge rolls when I thought it would better to let players win. Another time I was a player and our party got wiped out and the DM said. Okay the mists clear and you are outside the door -- what do you *this time*.

So F8 can actually happen in pen and paper. smile
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by brunotavm
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by ExperThies
I would like to be able to play a version of the game where your decisions actually matter. Additionally, I agree that in an actual D&D campaign you can create a new character and rejoin the party and I think that is a great suggestion and should be an option in this game.

There's nothing stopping you from doing that, except you. Well, not the new character bit, but the "not saving every step". I don't save every step, and I think saving during combat shouldn't be a thing, so I don't save during combat, to the point where I'm not even sure you can, because I haven't tried. I do save before encounters though, more because I don't want to go back however long since my last save than due to any need to achieve the perfect outcome. I figure that that's what new characters are for.


i don't see the problem with having a mode with more restrictions, the author of post clearly don't want this to be a thing in normal mode, ironman modes are quite common, there's a mode in DOS2 that deletes your save game if everyone dies

As discussed later, since it does exist in other Larian games, it's likely to come in to play here as well. Will it be in the what amounts to an Alpha build we have now? Probably not, too many ways for that to go south during testing. But it's likely to be a thing once it goes live.
Posted By: vometia Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by sethmage
so... you just want to force on everybody playstyle you approve of, did i get that right?

I've seen the same argument come up with so many video games and suspect it's sometimes used as an excuse to not develop a very robust saving system that can end up in the territory of checkpoint saves.

IMHO in a game where chance features as prominently as skill, it's always going to be a controversial subject and removing it will alienate a lot of players, whether the chance thing or that making decisions a much higher risk for inexperienced or non-native-speaking players. At the most it should be an gameplay menu option but it certainly shouldn't be an imposition on everyone.

As Stabbey says, it's really a matter of willpower, though I have seen conspicuous examples where the same rationale has been given in obvious bad faith and it's more about policing other people's playing style.
Posted By: IdPreferNotTo Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 10:21 PM
I prefer to save a lot and I've never been a fan of the dice rolls in RPGs, especially if there's just a succeed/fail type of either/or scenario at stake. This thread makes me think of something the novelty dicemaker in Disco Elysium says about the subject.... But luckily "save scumming" is a way to avoid the issue with the rolls.
Posted By: Thrythlind Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by IdPreferNotTo
I prefer to save a lot and I've never been a fan of the dice rolls in RPGs, especially if there's just a succeed/fail type of either/or scenario at stake. This thread makes me think of something the novelty dicemaker in Disco Elysium says about the subject.... But luckily "save scumming" is a way to avoid the issue with the rolls.


Being able to save anywhere is also a good hedge against, crashes, being called away for some reason, power outages, hitting the wrong key, A have recently heard a let's player note that he never does anything Ironman because it just opens up vulnerability to far too many technical issues.

Also, I find that a of CRPGs give the dice influence over things that I would tend to never give them influence over if I am running a game. This is largely because a computer can't do spot adjudication of circumstances the way a human GM can, so I understand it, but "make die rolls matter" is sort of undermined in this case for me by the thoughts "that shouldn't be a die roll".

Still, again, I'm not opposed to this being an option at all...let people play the way want to play. I just will absolutely oppose the idea of plentiful saves being removed entirely.
Posted By: Okidoki Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 10:32 PM

While it does feel that way, the save feature should be kept the way it is to allow for people to save in combat. It should never be taken away! Why? I would love to save in the middle of a hour and a half 32+ unit combat, because shit happens. Games crash, things get reset, and sometimes we dont have an hour and a half to sit in a combat. It's nice to revisit.

Taking away something that could be essential for some, but cater to others preferences is potentially dangerous.

Use your discretion when save scumming.
Posted By: IdPreferNotTo Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Originally Posted by IdPreferNotTo
I prefer to save a lot and I've never been a fan of the dice rolls in RPGs, especially if there's just a succeed/fail type of either/or scenario at stake. This thread makes me think of something the novelty dicemaker in Disco Elysium says about the subject.... But luckily "save scumming" is a way to avoid the issue with the rolls.


Being able to save anywhere is also a good hedge against, crashes, being called away for some reason, power outages, hitting the wrong key, A have recently heard a let's player note that he never does anything Ironman because it just opens up vulnerability to far too many technical issues.

Also, I find that a of CRPGs give the dice influence over things that I would tend to never give them influence over if I am running a game. This is largely because a computer can't do spot adjudication of circumstances the way a human GM can, so I understand it, but "make die rolls matter" is sort of undermined in this case for me by the thoughts "that shouldn't be a die roll".

Still, again, I'm not opposed to this being an option at all...let people play the way want to play. I just will absolutely oppose the idea of plentiful saves being removed entirely.


Yeah, there are plenty of good reasons to save a lot. I just picked the main one for me, since I wanted to keep the comment short and sweet.

Forcing the ironman mode on everyone or severely limiting saves usually just amounts to policing the playerbase for enjoying the game wrong, especially in RPGs. It's the cRPG version of not giving the "bad players" of the sports team any playtime on the field.
Posted By: JDCrenton Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 11:07 PM
This is why this game doesn't need cheesy mechanics in the first place.
Posted By: Thrythlind Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 11:09 PM
Currently the only mechanics that I don't find great fun are the dialogue-skill rolls...which feel like are implemented inconsistently with some feeling like "oh that's clever" and others feel like "and suddenly I have no agency."
Posted By: Jilljedin Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 11:27 PM
Question to the poeple that want a limit to avoid save scumming: How is limiting the amount of saves improving your experience of the game?

It is a bit like modding, if you do not like it, don't do it. Noone forces you to play evil either, but taking away these options it mainly limiting other peoples experience.

So, why insist on this? Why do you want to force others into the same experience? Why should I be limited in my choices because of your dislike of the option?
Posted By: JDCrenton Re: Save Scumming - 20/10/20 11:42 PM
Most of us will just have to wait for the mod that removes all the D:OS stuff on full version.
Posted By: kanisatha Re: Save Scumming - 21/10/20 01:11 AM
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Most of us will just have to wait for the mod that removes all the D:OS stuff on full version.

Amen to this.
Originally Posted by Jilljedin
Question to the poeple that want a limit to avoid save scumming: How is limiting the amount of saves improving your experience of the game?

It is a bit like modding, if you do not like it, don't do it. Noone forces you to play evil either, but taking away these options it mainly limiting other peoples experience.

So, why insist on this? Why do you want to force others into the same experience? Why should I be limited in my choices because of your dislike of the option?

Yeah it's come up in a few other threads as well. It's a mentality that is completely alien to me. There can be no justification for this mentality of trying to deny something to other people because you don't want that something.
Posted By: Evankhell Re: Save Scumming - 21/10/20 01:17 AM
It takes me many many reloads while having 60+% and I am just at the beginning. Actually I am so unlucky, I have never won at first time with that chance. takes usally 4-10 tries to finally hit the 60%. Without the ability to reload I just would not even give a shit about the whole gameystem of rolling the dice in persuasions.
Posted By: Thrythlind Re: Save Scumming - 21/10/20 01:23 AM
Originally Posted by Evankhell
It takes me many many reloads while having 60+% and I am just at the beginning. Actually I am so unlucky, I have never won at first time with that chance. takes usally 4-10 tries to finally hit the 60%. Without the ability to reload I just would not even give a shit about the whole gameystem of rolling the dice in persuasions.


A number of the dialogue skill rolls are terribly implemented....putting dice rolls in places that shouldn't be a die roll.

Also, I am never not going to reload the Kahga conversation until Arabelle lives. Because that die roll is ridiculous.
Posted By: vometia Re: Save Scumming - 21/10/20 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Most of us will just have to wait for the mod that removes all the D:OS stuff on full version.

Don't derail the topic, please.

Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Originally Posted by Evankhell
It takes me many many reloads while having 60+% and I am just at the beginning. Actually I am so unlucky, I have never won at first time with that chance. takes usally 4-10 tries to finally hit the 60%. Without the ability to reload I just would not even give a shit about the whole gameystem of rolling the dice in persuasions.


A number of the dialogue skill rolls are terribly implemented....putting dice rolls in places that shouldn't be a die roll.

Also, I am never not going to reload the Kahga conversation until Arabelle lives. Because that die roll is ridiculous.

Maybe it's because I don't come from a D&D background, where I understand it's a game of chance mitigated by knowledge, tactics and skill, but IMHO dice-rolls really don't belong in dialogue: that should really just be a straightforward charisma/knowledge/other relevant stats/choices check. I didn't invest points in that skill just to have a mostly ineffective change to my chance to lose a dice roll! Whether or not my magical ability to routinely roll 5-or-less is really a thing, it's involving a lot of F8 to play it as I would like. But that's just me, "not from a D&D background" feels like my opinion shouldn't carry that much weight and as with others, "may require a mod to sort it out". In fact as I've already been experimenting maybe I should start looking.
Posted By: Jazhara202 Re: Save Scumming - 21/10/20 02:05 AM
In 5e there are actually "Skill Challenges" that can be designed as tough as a combat encounter depending. With many different skill checks back to back. Usually the DC will vary depending what skill you are using. Having Advantage on a skill you roll 2 D 20s and take the highest roll and then add your mod. It FEELS a lot better to roll the 2 than have it just adjust the DC by 5.

Skill Challenges should also reward just as much and on top of that gained faction which can have an impact later. That is one of the main reasons to play a "Face" Character in a group. Its common if a skill challenge doesnt go as planned you can easily get into combat. The Major difference is that in a tabletop you Cant reload your game because of the different outcome you wanted didnt go as planned. There are always consequences for your actions and you have to adjust to what they are as a group in real time.

Jaz
Posted By: Evankhell Re: Save Scumming - 21/10/20 02:33 AM
Indeed, my Main is a Drow with max charisma and I just will not accept that she always ends up at the end of the rope - that's not acceptable, "just by playing the game". If you go for a charismatic character you should not have to reload every time because you lose to the dice multiple times. And tbh: Whatever algorithm they use, it's probably a very flexible one with many more variables and as it looks currently you always take the short end if you invest in that gamesystem.

I don't like it. Just use thresholds that acknowledge investments - with fail-safes. I was fine with that system in DV:OS1 because it's just numbers. In BG3 it's more than that.
Posted By: Stray952 Re: Save Scumming - 21/10/20 02:52 AM
Originally Posted by Evankhell
Indeed, my Main is a Drow with max charisma and I just will not accept that she always ends up at the end of the rope - that's not acceptable, "just by playing the game". If you go for a charismatic character you should not have to reload every time because you lose to the dice multiple times. And tbh: Whatever algorithm they use, it's probably a very flexible one with many more variables and as it looks currently you always take the short end if you invest in that gamesystem.

I don't like it. Just use thresholds that acknowledge investments - with fail-safes. I was fine with that system in DV:OS1 because it's just numbers. In BG3 it's more than that.


I wouldn’t assume that most dialogue checks are one time only. I like the dice rolls in convo because you can’t always get what you want. IDK maybe your guys single life was a lot better than mine. I think it adds a lot of replay ability and realism. People aren’t predictable. Dealing with other peoples’ personalities should feel pretty far out of our control.

They need to script in multiple chances at whatever you’re trying to do in dialogue.
Posted By: Mezbarrena Re: Save Scumming - 21/10/20 03:07 AM
I don't care about the dice rolling in convo. But perhaps you as a player shouldn't save scum. Living with the outcome of the dialog is half the fun of DnD and this game. I have failed many rolls that have lead into a rather hard fight and one a playthough if I win that roll I just keep going. If you're "meta-gaming" the choices to always be the best.... are you really playing the game?
Posted By: Zarna Re: Save Scumming - 21/10/20 03:18 AM
Originally Posted by ExperThies
Hello,
Being able to save at any moment can be nice, especially when you want to try out different outcomes or if you want to see if you can jump off of the nautiloid. However, being able to save at any moment also rewards saving after almost every step. I hit the enemy in battle, I save. I know that some people like that option. The issue is that it really takes away from the D&D feel of the game. Your decisions do not matter if you can just reload the save. I suggest having different difficulty options when you create the game. Easy-you can save whenever and wherever and there are auto saves, Normal- there are only autosaves (which you need more of by the way), Hard-the game only saves when you rest at camp, and Real D&D where the game only saves when you quit the game and will only load that save once. If there are other good ideas or you like these ideas, please discuss them. The save scumming is real and, in my opinion, a big problem if the game is trying create the feel of a real D&D campaign.
Thank you.

If you are advocating for additional difficulty modes to prevent this while also keeping the current system then sure. If you are trying to force your playstyle on others, especially in a mostly single player game, then perhaps you should not be so weak willed in regards to your own game play.
Posted By: JDCrenton Re: Save Scumming - 21/10/20 03:20 AM
Savescumming actually doesn't affect anyone because it's not being forced into the core gameplay/mechanics unlike the D:OS System. It's the only legit cheat that has always been allowed in CRPGS.
Posted By: Thrythlind Re: Save Scumming - 21/10/20 05:03 AM
Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Most of us will just have to wait for the mod that removes all the D:OS stuff on full version.

Don't derail the topic, please.

Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Originally Posted by Evankhell
It takes me many many reloads while having 60+% and I am just at the beginning. Actually I am so unlucky, I have never won at first time with that chance. takes usally 4-10 tries to finally hit the 60%. Without the ability to reload I just would not even give a shit about the whole gameystem of rolling the dice in persuasions.


A number of the dialogue skill rolls are terribly implemented....putting dice rolls in places that shouldn't be a die roll.

Also, I am never not going to reload the Kahga conversation until Arabelle lives. Because that die roll is ridiculous.

Maybe it's because I don't come from a D&D background, where I understand it's a game of chance mitigated by knowledge, tactics and skill, but IMHO dice-rolls really don't belong in dialogue: that should really just be a straightforward charisma/knowledge/other relevant stats/choices check. I didn't invest points in that skill just to have a mostly ineffective change to my chance to lose a dice roll! Whether or not my magical ability to routinely roll 5-or-less is really a thing, it's involving a lot of F8 to play it as I would like. But that's just me, "not from a D&D background" feels like my opinion shouldn't carry that much weight and as with others, "may require a mod to sort it out". In fact as I've already been experimenting maybe I should start looking.


In general, skill rolls in D&D mostly go towards:

Lore checks (Nature, History, Religion, Arcana) and is mostly to determine what your character would know about a thing. (As a long time D&D player, this partly how I determine how much of my knowledge of the game to consider in-character knowledge)

Checks regarding physical challenges like climbing/jumping/etc.

Social interaction, where you generally go to the dice when an argument is such that a particular NPC might go either way. If a player presents a reasonable in-character argument then you might not need the dice, but there's a chance the NPC might not react as the PCs want then you bring the dice in. You might also use the dice if a player isn't sure what to say so the dice act as a crutch for when someone is feeling unconfident about RPing or just tired or whatever reason.


Point is, in general, RP/player choice is priority over dice in social interaction. There are going to be places where a failed die roll results in a terrible thing, but usually you only get to such a point because of successive player decisions.


Which is why I prefer CRPG dialogue trees based die-rolls to function for giving you hints or opening up extra rewards, but not being the primary success/fail of the core plot-element of the dialogue. Which is why I HATE the Kahga dialogue. It should be a puzzle of navigating responses rather than "roll this die and hope the computer is feeling friendly." You've made no decisions to bring you to this point. Your choices or thoughts don't matter. You just have a die roll shoved into your face.
Posted By: Thrythlind Re: Save Scumming - 21/10/20 05:12 AM
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Savescumming actually doesn't affect anyone because it's not being forced into the core gameplay/mechanics unlike the D:OS System. It's the only legit cheat that has always been allowed in CRPGS.


For all your complaint about D:OS....I've never played either of those games more than the opening cut scene and all I can say about this game is "This is like NWN2 except 5e and I can do the sort of shenanigans I do in the tabletop game because I finally have shove that isn't useless and there's actual environment programmed in."

It feels like all the D&D CRPGs I've played before just with good implementation of options you have in the Tabletop that historically hasn't been put into past games in anyway useful way.

Perhaps the Improved Trip stuff in NWN/NWN2 would have been useful if it had been turn-based instead of RTWP but it wasn't. So in general Trip (the 3.X equivalent to Shove) wasn't really useful in NWN2 while it was very useful in the tabletop.

Now we have a CRPG useful Shove to match the TTRPG useful Shove. So, finally I can have something of the extent of tactics I use when playing a tabletop fighter or ranger in a CRPG.

So, even if you think this is "D:OS" I personally think it's closer to my TTRPG experience.
Posted By: JDCrenton Re: Save Scumming - 21/10/20 05:19 AM
Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Savescumming actually doesn't affect anyone because it's not being forced into the core gameplay/mechanics unlike the D:OS System. It's the only legit cheat that has always been allowed in CRPGS.


For all your complaint about D:OS....I've never played either of those games more than the opening cut scene and all I can say about this game is "This is like NWN2 except 5e and I can do the sort of shenanigans I do in the tabletop game because I finally have shove that isn't useless and there's actual environment programmed in."

It feels like all the D&D CRPGs I've played before just with good implementation of options you have in the Tabletop that historically hasn't been put into past games in anyway useful way.

Perhaps the Improved Trip stuff in NWN/NWN2 would have been useful if it had been turn-based instead of RTWP but it wasn't. So in general Trip (the 3.X equivalent to Shove) wasn't really useful in NWN2 while it was very useful in the tabletop.

Now we have a CRPG useful Shove to match the TTRPG useful Shove. So, finally I can have something of the extent of tactics I use when playing a tabletop fighter or ranger in a CRPG.

So, even if you think this is "D:OS" I personally think it's closer to my TTRPG experience.


I find it hard to believe you, otherwise you wouldn't care about me saying anything about D:OS in the first place. It's a game i know from top to bottom and have at least 2k hours invested on it so any assumptions you make about me are pointless too. As you say in your own "Personal Experience". If it feels like i'm somehow telling you to not like this game, well that's just your "Own Perception" or "Take at the Matter". Welcome to the "Real World" where people will have different opinions and preferences.
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Save Scumming - 21/10/20 05:24 AM
Keep it, because again, you can choose to do it or not. Why remove something that is optional.
Posted By: kanisatha Re: Save Scumming - 21/10/20 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by vometia
Maybe it's because I don't come from a D&D background, where I understand it's a game of chance mitigated by knowledge, tactics and skill, but IMHO dice-rolls really don't belong in dialogue: that should really just be a straightforward charisma/knowledge/other relevant stats/choices check. I didn't invest points in that skill just to have a mostly ineffective change to my chance to lose a dice roll!

I come from almost 30 years of D&D background and I 100% agree with you here. It's why I have in recent years begun to walk away from D&D and no longer consider D&D to be a good RPG system, for exactly this reason. It has way too much random chance (die rolls) in way too many areas of the game, and that takes away from my character creation and character development choices (possibly even making my choices meaningless).
Posted By: Argonaut Re: Save Scumming - 21/10/20 12:59 PM
Originally Posted by ExperThies
Hello,
Being able to save at any moment can be nice, especially when you want to try out different outcomes or if you want to see if you can jump off of the nautiloid. However, being able to save at any moment also rewards saving after almost every step. I hit the enemy in battle, I save. I know that some people like that option. The issue is that it really takes away from the D&D feel of the game. Your decisions do not matter if you can just reload the save. I suggest having different difficulty options when you create the game. Easy-you can save whenever and wherever and there are auto saves, Normal- there are only autosaves (which you need more of by the way), Hard-the game only saves when you rest at camp, and Real D&D where the game only saves when you quit the game and will only load that save once. If there are other good ideas or you like these ideas, please discuss them. The save scumming is real and, in my opinion, a big problem if the game is trying create the feel of a real D&D campaign.
Thank you.


I think this is kind of a non-issue as the previous games included Honor Mode and this one will most likely include it too.

I think save scumming is antithetical to gaming and role playing but to each their own and I wouldn't endorse anything past the inclusion of honor mode.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Save Scumming - 21/10/20 01:17 PM
Originally Posted by Thrythlind


In general, skill rolls in D&D mostly go towards:

Lore checks (Nature, History, Religion, Arcana) and is mostly to determine what your character would know about a thing. (As a long time D&D player, this partly how I determine how much of my knowledge of the game to consider in-character knowledge)

Checks regarding physical challenges like climbing/jumping/etc.

Social interaction, where you generally go to the dice when an argument is such that a particular NPC might go either way. If a player presents a reasonable in-character argument then you might not need the dice, but there's a chance the NPC might not react as the PCs want then you bring the dice in. You might also use the dice if a player isn't sure what to say so the dice act as a crutch for when someone is feeling unconfident about RPing or just tired or whatever reason.


Point is, in general, RP/player choice is priority over dice in social interaction. There are going to be places where a failed die roll results in a terrible thing, but usually you only get to such a point because of successive player decisions.


Which is why I prefer CRPG dialogue trees based die-rolls to function for giving you hints or opening up extra rewards, but not being the primary success/fail of the core plot-element of the dialogue. Which is why I HATE the Kahga dialogue. It should be a puzzle of navigating responses rather than "roll this die and hope the computer is feeling friendly." You've made no decisions to bring you to this point. Your choices or thoughts don't matter. You just have a die roll shoved into your face.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you counter your closing argument in this post. Your given example is trying to convince the NPC that she should just let the thief go. The thief, meanwhile, didn't just nab a few apples, or a few coins, but an idol to the temple's deity. Why shouldn't this be a really hard check? One side thinks that it's harsh, and remember, at this point, the goal is to just lock the thief up, which the other side feels is justifiable. The thief panics, and that results in what happens if you fail the roll. As it stands, I'm 50/50 on it, I've passed it once, and failed it once. The point of the roll, however, is to get the NPC to go against what they think is the right thing to do. Why should this be easy? It's not even that I'm a fan of the outcome of failure, it's just that I do understand what I'm trying to do when I decide to roll that die. A more lenient DM may let that conversation play out for an hour, but pacing is a thing in video games, and if we want every conversation to play out 100% in our favor every time, why not just do it on the first line of dialog, and be done with it?

This should be a hard check, because we're trying to assert our will on the NPC. We did, in fact, make a choice, we chose to interject and try to assert our will on the outcome. Things like this are what add replay-ability to games. "my next character will get this" sort of scenarios, and I don't take issue with that. I'm looking to spend thousands of hours in this game, after release. Things like this will make that easier to do, so I hope there are a lot of things like this going on as the game progresses.
Posted By: Thrythlind Re: Save Scumming - 21/10/20 10:54 PM
The girl's actions are outside the control of the players. This should be hard, yes. But when you reduce things to a single die roll, that's not hard, that's arbitrary. You're replacing actual difficulty with random chance. This should be a dialogue tree puzzle, something you have to think through and consider. The die rolls should open up paths to make things easier, but they should not determine success or failure in and of itself. Not on such a plot point.

By saying, well, this NPC did such and such and etc etc, so you have to make this one die roll that might as well be a coin flip both robs players of a chance to feel like THEY accomplished a thing and punishes them for what is essentially the GM's actions. Both are things that breed resentment and frustration.

That conversation oozes potential to be interesting and clever, but it is instead reduced to a single die roll.

By comparison, the single die roll of the meeting with the Githyanki as to whether you get Lae'zel to play along with the dragonrider or not is fine. That IS a detail in the story, it is not a crossroads. Regardless of the results of that roll, the dragonrider is marked as Lae'zel's enemy and you don't get closer on your quest to deal with the tadpole. The only difference is whether or not he leaves aware of Lae'zel's annoyance with him or not. By and large story trajectory has not changed.

Now, if this encounter were prefaced by an encounter with Arabella where you can talk to her and your dialogue options with her result in her trying to do this then suddenly it IS a result of player choices and that one die roll is a last ditch chance to recover from their own mistakes.

But this feels like "The GM feels like you should randomly roll a die."

It's even worse that this is a quest that is solved essentially by walking to a place and rolling a single. No challenge. No difficulty. No thought. No puzzle to navigate. Just a die roll.

I hate to say this, but it would have been a better decision just to have no quest and simply have the girl die as an establishing fact rather than do this half-assed encounter. (EDIT: I don't want this to be their answer...I want them to expand on this encounter, not eliminate it.)

And yes, eventually, such a dialogue puzzle would have guides published somewhere, but that is the same for any puzzle in any game.

A random die roll is not a substitute for making things difficult. A high difficulty single roll can be a good end-cap to a "you made a mistake, this is your last chance" or "you've worked hard to open a slim opportunity at a nearly impossible task."

It a terrible thing to do for "This is the first influence of any kind you've had on this matter have a die roll and that'll be the last influence on the subject at all. Oh did I say you'd have influence? I lied, the die will have all the influence.""

Make me work my way up to that die roll. If it were prefaced by several different dialogue choices with that die roll maybe being at the cap of a number of badly chosen arguments and be that last ditch effort to save the girl. Make the better chosen arguments lead to just saving the girl and the middling arguments lead to a moderately easy roll. Then I'll be happy.

Allow for other skill options, maybe an Acrobatics roll to snatch the snake before it strikes. Maybe Athletics to snap the girl up and get bitten yourself, requiring you to waste resources of some kind on curing the poison.

These will all improve the encounter.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: Save Scumming - 21/10/20 11:20 PM
Any persuasion or intimidation check is a die roll, and should be. No matter how you're going about it. In the specific example, again, we're trying to subvert what she believes is the correct course of action. Since her intention was not to kill the thief, initially, we do have the potential to make it worse, and we should have that potential. I get people will feel bad about the outcome, I certainly did, but we made a decision to interject ourselves into their internal struggle, and I'm not even sure that's the right word, the better concept is we're interjecting ourselves, and our opinions, into something that is none of our business. Do we want to save the child? I certainly did, and I did, once out of two tries, so far, but it shouldn't be something where we spend a half hour in a dialog tree trying to find a way to manipulate the druid into changing their mind. How many hours of the dialog we're having now would it take to change your mind about what happens with this scenario? Will we both be holding the same position in a week? I would be, because I understand that I likely will not be able to change your mind, and I know it's possible that I won't change the druid's mind either. Not every dialog puzzle should be solvable by just cycling through choices until they relent, and, in fact, w/out a skill check to persuade them one way or another, why should we be able to convince her to not lock up someone that stole a holy relic from the temple?

In a PnP situation, where the dialog isn't scripted, a DM can roll a die check on every point raised by the players. In this instance, that's both impractical, and covered, by giving the player a chance to use dialog skills to manipulate the druid to our desired outcome. It could have just as easily had no way for us to influence it, given the nature of the druid in question. I don't know what happens if we just ignore that, and hammer her about needing a healer, and then leaving the dialog, and I'm not even sure it's possible, but if it is, is there another outcome? Could it be that, by sticking our nose where it doesn't belong, and failing that check, we are responsible for a death that may not have happened under any other circumstance? What happens if we say nothing, I seem to recall that that's an option? "You roll the dice and you take your chances" is an expression I've heard a lot. It's associated with gambling, I believe, but the sentiment remains the same.
Posted By: Soulcatcher30 Re: Save Scumming - 22/10/20 06:29 AM
Save scumming is really useful, what with the crashes and all. At best add some sort of ironman man mode for those who want it. Others should not be forced to use it.
Posted By: frequentic Re: Save Scumming - 22/10/20 09:01 AM
Originally Posted by Thrythlind
The girl's actions are outside the control of the players. This should be hard, yes. But when you reduce things to a single die roll, that's not hard, that's arbitrary. You're replacing actual difficulty with random chance. This should be a dialogue tree puzzle, something you have to think through and consider. The die rolls should open up paths to make things easier, but they should not determine success or failure in and of itself. Not on such a plot point.


I've been discussing this in other topics already, but my feelings are pretty much summed up by the quote.

It could be handled multiple ways. It could be

1) an initial dice roll, opening up more dialogue options on success

2) a branching dialogue where you select maybe 3-5 lines, and in the end you roll with a target that is determined on your dialogue choices. The target could be raised, lowered or stay the same, depending on your choices.

3) as it is today (see next point)

4) along with any of the above options you could get additional dialogue options, or additions to the skill check based on the what information you uncovered. A very relevant point in this case could be to prevent the Tiefling refugees to go into conflict with the druids - this would require a slightly different narrative than we have in game today, but it would definitely be worth considering for someone in Kargha's position.
Posted By: Aurgelmir Re: Save Scumming - 22/10/20 09:20 AM
Originally Posted by ExperThies
Hello,
Being able to save at any moment can be nice, especially when you want to try out different outcomes or if you want to see if you can jump off of the nautiloid. However, being able to save at any moment also rewards saving after almost every step. I hit the enemy in battle, I save. I know that some people like that option. The issue is that it really takes away from the D&D feel of the game. Your decisions do not matter if you can just reload the save. I suggest having different difficulty options when you create the game. Easy-you can save whenever and wherever and there are auto saves, Normal- there are only autosaves (which you need more of by the way), Hard-the game only saves when you rest at camp, and Real D&D where the game only saves when you quit the game and will only load that save once. If there are other good ideas or you like these ideas, please discuss them. The save scumming is real and, in my opinion, a big problem if the game is trying create the feel of a real D&D campaign.
Thank you.



Savescumming is a "you" not a "me" problem though. It's one of those issues where it comes down to the player.

1. Some people don't do it, at all.
2. Some people do it, and like that they can
3. Some players do it if they misclicked, or got an unexpected outcome.
4. Some players do it, and hate that they can do it.

I'm sure there are more scenarios, but in most cases it's a minority issue, that I don't think should be addressed by making it harder to do, as it hurts more players than it helps.

Besides: they should be more lenient with inspiration points. It's a cool mechanic, but one you got once, and probably used on a meaningless roll. If we had more of them then more people would maybe not want to save scum?

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