Larian Studios
Posted By: sinogy This is not romance! - 21/10/20 02:10 PM
That so called romance in party night at camp is waaaay far from romance. It is a very low level grab what you can kind of one night stand. I mean your party members get aligned to be picked up by PC is a huge immersion breaker.

Another huge immersion breaker is nothing really changes in dialogs or personality of the companion with whom you made love a night before. There is just some kind of "what do you think about last night" option and it is completely empty.

I don't know what you guys over there understand from romance but the thing you implemented is not romance. It is just a low level one night stand.

And, please, get rid of those over the top facial expressions of PC during dialogs. They just look like teenagers who lack self esteem rather than an adventurer who is on an epic journey about life and death in a land full of magic and danger.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 02:13 PM
Correct, it is not Romance.

The developers could hardly market it as 'One-night stand screwing' though.
Posted By: override367 Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 02:15 PM
I feel like Shadowheart's is the only one that could qualify
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 02:16 PM
It will turn into romance if you pursue it to the end of the game. How many people have you slept with one time that wanted to spend the rest of their life with you right after?
Posted By: Sigi98 Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
And, please, get rid of those over the top facial expressions of PC during dialogs. They just look like teenagers who lack self esteem rather than an adventurer who is on an epic journey about life and death in a land full of magic and danger.


to this I'd like to say that there is probably a thin line between 'over the top facial expressions' and the characters looking absolutely lifeless. its probably not that easy to implement in a completely natural way, since humans are so incredibly sensitive to mimics/facial recognition in general.

Originally Posted by sinogy
That so called romance in party night at camp is waaaay far from romance. It is a very low level grab what you can kind of one night stand. I mean your party members get aligned to be picked up by PC is a huge immersion breaker.

Another huge immersion breaker is nothing really changes in dialogs or personality of the companion with whom you made love a night before. There is just some kind of "what do you think about last night" option and it is completely empty.


about the romance thing, I also found it a bit unbelievable that everyone is suddenly into you. and like you said, it feels a bit empty when after that night the companion you romanced acts almost entirely like it never happened. The only companion for which I think a one night stand makes sense is Astarion (i mean, the dude probably wasn't allowed to have sex for over 200 years - you would be horny too).
Posted By: SwordSaintSilver Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 02:18 PM
Im under the impression this isn't meant to be the final version of this, but admittedly its only cuz of how ham-fisted and out of nowhere it is. No one could have looked at this and said "Yeah, this makes sense for this group who has known each other less then a week"

Githyanki girl especially, i didn't get her romance option but even the refusal sounded all kinds of off for her

Quote
[/quote] The only companion for which I think a one night stand makes sense is Astarion (i mean, the dude probably wasn't allowed to have sex for over 200 years - you would be horny too).[quote]



Completely agree with this, I had talked to him first and found it pretty natural only to then be wierded out by everyone else wanting it too
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 02:20 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
It will turn into romance if you pursue it to the end of the game. How many people have you slept with one time that wanted to spend the rest of their life with you right after?



so you are just a person who can only think of extremes!
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 02:21 PM
I mean, they could have easily made it a "We might as well, because neither of us knows if it's the last time" thing... but if it's really not the final version of these "romances", then it's a really cheap marketing gag to sell EA on.
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by Sigi98
Originally Posted by sinogy
And, please, get rid of those over the top facial expressions of PC during dialogs. They just look like teenagers who lack self esteem rather than an adventurer who is on an epic journey about life and death in a land full of magic and danger.


to this I'd like to say that there is probably a thin line between 'over the top facial expressions' and the characters looking absolutely lifeless. its probably not that easy to implement in a completely natural way, since humans are so incredibly sensitive to mimics/facial recognition in general.

Originally Posted by sinogy
That so called romance in party night at camp is waaaay far from romance. It is a very low level grab what you can kind of one night stand. I mean your party members get aligned to be picked up by PC is a huge immersion breaker.

Another huge immersion breaker is nothing really changes in dialogs or personality of the companion with whom you made love a night before. There is just some kind of "what do you think about last night" option and it is completely empty.


about the romance thing, I also found it a bit unbelievable that everyone is suddenly into you. and like you said, it feels a bit empty when after that night the companion you romanced acts almost entirely like it never happened. The only companion for which I think a one night stand makes sense is Astarion (i mean, the dude probably wasn't allowed to have sex for over 200 years - you would be horny too).



I should have made a video of my wood elf ranger's facial expressions during that night. It is beyond pathetic. It was like my char was mentally challenged and never saw a woman naked before!
Well if there is a thin line then you should be extra careful not to cross it. I mean this 2020 and there are tons of great examples to look after. Witcher 3 is a 5 years old game and has 1000 times better facial expressions than BG3.
Posted By: Sigi98 Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
I should have made a video of my wood elf ranger's facial expressions during that night. It is beyond pathetic. It was like my char was mentally challenged and never saw a woman naked before!
Well if there is a thin line then you should be extra careful not to cross it. I mean this 2020 and there are tons of great examples to look after. Witcher 3 is a 5 years old game and has 1000 times better facial expressions than BG3.



i get what you mean, but this is still EA and Larian said themselves that they know that some things still look a bit janky, but they're gonna fix it.
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by SwordSaintSilver
Im under the impression this isn't meant to be the final version of this, but admittedly its only cuz of how ham-fisted and out of nowhere it is. No one could have looked at this and said "Yeah, this makes sense for this group who has known each other less then a week"

Githyanki girl especially, i didn't get her romance option but even the refusal sounded all kinds of off for her

Quote
The only companion for which I think a one night stand makes sense is Astarion (i mean, the dude probably wasn't allowed to have sex for over 200 years - you would be horny too).
Quote



Completely agree with this, I had talked to him first and found it pretty natural only to then be wierded out by everyone else wanting it too


Well, Astarion is another example of being over the top in this game. The dude seems like he will dry hump you during a fight laugh
Posted By: override367 Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by SwordSaintSilver
Im under the impression this isn't meant to be the final version of this, but admittedly its only cuz of how ham-fisted and out of nowhere it is. No one could have looked at this and said "Yeah, this makes sense for this group who has known each other less then a week"

Githyanki girl especially, i didn't get her romance option but even the refusal sounded all kinds of off for her

Quote
The only companion for which I think a one night stand makes sense is Astarion (i mean, the dude probably wasn't allowed to have sex for over 200 years - you would be horny too).
Quote



Completely agree with this, I had talked to him first and found it pretty natural only to then be wierded out by everyone else wanting it too

....What? Githyanki party hard and one night stand all over the place, they don't even have monogamy as a concept

What wouldn't make any sense for Lae'zel is actually falling in love with you, not without some total realignment of her worldview, Githyanki don't "do" love, dating, or romance

I have a feeling Lae'zel will be the hardest character to actually form a romantic bond with, and we already know she won't be monogamous, because he people don't do that, it's not a concept they were ever taught. Githyanki are bred as warriors, they lay eggs and leave them for someone else to raise, they might have an attachment with another gith and be overjoyed when they see them, but when they're deployed they're deployed, and they lay with whoever catches their eye while they are.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Well if there is a thin line then you should be extra careful not to cross it. I mean this 2020 and there are tons of great examples to look after. Witcher 3 is a 5 years old game and has 1000 times better facial expressions than BG3.


That's a general issue with the game, though... the "cinematic" approach was a bad idea to begin with, to be honest. It's almost like Larian isn't trying to make a Baldur's Gate follow up, but a Dragon Age 4 or - better - DA Origins 2, while, sadly neither having the directing nor the writing skills necessary to really make it work.
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by Sigi98
Originally Posted by sinogy
I should have made a video of my wood elf ranger's facial expressions during that night. It is beyond pathetic. It was like my char was mentally challenged and never saw a woman naked before!
Well if there is a thin line then you should be extra careful not to cross it. I mean this 2020 and there are tons of great examples to look after. Witcher 3 is a 5 years old game and has 1000 times better facial expressions than BG3.



i get what you mean, but this is still EA and Larian said themselves that they know that some things still look a bit janky, but they're gonna fix it.



Well I know this is EA and that's why I point out things to be fixed. Otherwise, we'd just wait and hope.
Posted By: override367 Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by SwordSaintSilver
Im under the impression this isn't meant to be the final version of this, but admittedly its only cuz of how ham-fisted and out of nowhere it is. No one could have looked at this and said "Yeah, this makes sense for this group who has known each other less then a week"

Githyanki girl especially, i didn't get her romance option but even the refusal sounded all kinds of off for her

Quote
The only companion for which I think a one night stand makes sense is Astarion (i mean, the dude probably wasn't allowed to have sex for over 200 years - you would be horny too).
Quote



Completely agree with this, I had talked to him first and found it pretty natural only to then be wierded out by everyone else wanting it too


Well, Astarion is another example of being over the top in this game. The dude seems like he will dry hump you during a fight laugh


He's a vampire spawn, permanently stuck between thirsty and thirsty

The only bare beginnings of a romance plot in Chapter 1 is Shadowheart, but the rest of them are just sex which makes a lot of sense given the impending doom and the fact that everyone has the body of an athlete
Posted By: Mister Monster Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 02:37 PM
Keep in mind that this is only the first act: these are the opening motions of will -become- a romance later on in the game!

The 'hookups' at this point in time are just that; they're intended to be whirlwind, potentially alcohol-induced nights of revelry. Will they stay as just that? Or will you keep going back? Find out in Act 2 and beyond!
Posted By: Demoulius Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 02:39 PM
Honeslly ive seen alot of conversations that were triggered when the 'trigger' wasent met yet. And vice versa.

Ive seen Gale mention how he was happy how I took the news about his black hole of item eating ness while he hadent even told me that yet....

I think at the moment things arent done yet, not in the proper order yet and obviously would be spread out over the complete game normally while they currently might not be restricted at all.

Id chalk it up to the whole 'its EA, this isent the final form of dialogue and romance yet' tbh
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 02:40 PM
Quote
Ive seen Gale mention how he was happy how I took the news about his black hole of item eating ness while he hadent even told me that yet....


Astarion constantly talking about Cazador when I have no idea who that is yet...
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by override367
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by SwordSaintSilver
Im under the impression this isn't meant to be the final version of this, but admittedly its only cuz of how ham-fisted and out of nowhere it is. No one could have looked at this and said "Yeah, this makes sense for this group who has known each other less then a week"

Githyanki girl especially, i didn't get her romance option but even the refusal sounded all kinds of off for her

Quote
The only companion for which I think a one night stand makes sense is Astarion (i mean, the dude probably wasn't allowed to have sex for over 200 years - you would be horny too).
Quote



Completely agree with this, I had talked to him first and found it pretty natural only to then be wierded out by everyone else wanting it too


Well, Astarion is another example of being over the top in this game. The dude seems like he will dry hump you during a fight laugh


He's a vampire spawn, permanently stuck between thirsty and thirsty

The only bare beginnings of a romance plot in Chapter 1 is Shadowheart, but the rest of them are just sex which is definitely not romance, and doesn't necessarily lead to it. have none of you used Tinder?



It is just a one way of seeing things. There are multiple variations that shape one's character. For example, he doesn't act like a person who got stuck in a desperate situation for a long time yet has managed to survive. He is just designed to be spoiled horny man child! Well maybe it is not intentional maybe developers lack qualifications to design believable characters or maybe they just don't care about little but important details and just wanna sell their products to their target audience as soon as possible and I am not among that target audience.
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by Mister Monster
Keep in mind that this is only the first act: these are the opening motions of will -become- a romance later on in the game!

The 'hookups' at this point in time are just that; they're intended to be whirlwind, potentially alcohol-induced nights of revelry. Will they stay as just that? Or will you keep going back? Find out in Act 2 and beyond!


This is just wishful thinking. Companions are just literally alinged to be picked up at that night like red-light district prostitutes or as if high school horny teenagers who just wait for an oportunity to get laid. These are supposed to be people who have extreme backgrounds and immense experience. We are talking about people who can get into love affairs with a goddess or seen and done things with demons which granted them immense powers so that they have gone extraordianry adventures. However, somehow they get easily picked up to get laid by a person they just know for a week while they are in a mortal danger.

Do you really think it is not immersion breaker than go on have fun playing this game. I am happy for you.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
This is just wishful thinking. Companions are just literally alinged to be picked up at that night like red-light district prostitutes or as if high school horny teenagers who just wait for an oportunity to get laid. These are supposed to be people who have extreme backgrounds and immense experience. We are talking about people who can get into love affairs with a goddess or seen and done things with demons which granted them immense powers so that they have gone extraordianry adventures. However, somehow they get easily picked up to get laid by a person they just know for a week while they are in a mortal danger.

Do you really think it is not immersion breaker than go on have fun playing this game. I am happy for you.


Well, turns out being able to affort an IP and time at a motion capture studio doesn't make you a Chris Avellone... who would have funked? wink
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 03:03 PM
Quote
so you are just a person who can only think of extremes!


Are you going to sleep with me if I say yes? wink
Posted By: robertthebard Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
It will turn into romance if you pursue it to the end of the game. How many people have you slept with one time that wanted to spend the rest of their life with you right after?



so you are just a person who can only think of extremes!

How so? In my own experiences, I've had plenty of dates that didn't turn into anything else, whether they ended up in the sack or not. I've also had a fair share of nights in the sack that didn't start from, or end up in anything like a romance. I don't view any of that as "extreme", just part of life. I've met plenty of people that I feel like the world would be better off w/out. Why would it be unusual to run into that kind of scenario in a game?

Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Mister Monster
Keep in mind that this is only the first act: these are the opening motions of will -become- a romance later on in the game!

The 'hookups' at this point in time are just that; they're intended to be whirlwind, potentially alcohol-induced nights of revelry. Will they stay as just that? Or will you keep going back? Find out in Act 2 and beyond!


This is just wishful thinking. Companions are just literally alinged to be picked up at that night like red-light district prostitutes or as if high school horny teenagers who just wait for an oportunity to get laid. These are supposed to be people who have extreme backgrounds and immense experience. We are talking about people who can get into love affairs with a goddess or seen and done things with demons which granted them immense powers so that they have gone extraordianry adventures. However, somehow they get easily picked up to get laid by a person they just know for a week while they are in a mortal danger.

Do you really think it is not immersion breaker than go on have fun playing this game. I am happy for you.

So the only way a person could take any interest in you is if they're a prostitute, and yet you were claiming someone else's view of this situation was extreme? I can see plenty of reasons to want to blow off some steam in a hot and sweaty sexual encounter, especially in the current predicament they're in. Who knows, maybe tomorrow you're a mind flayer, might as well do something you'll regret, or regret not doing, if you can remember your past life, while you have a chance. Sorry that they didn't wine and dine you, and bring you flowers, but to flip your argument back on you here, it's a life and death situation, and fiction is full of relationships, for better or worse, that spring up out of these situations, and it doesn't have to be particularly romantic.

But tell me, since you seem to have a lot of insight into how this unfolds later in the game, exactly how do these romances play out in Act II and III? You can put it in spoiler tags if you want.
Posted By: override367 Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Mister Monster
Keep in mind that this is only the first act: these are the opening motions of will -become- a romance later on in the game!

The 'hookups' at this point in time are just that; they're intended to be whirlwind, potentially alcohol-induced nights of revelry. Will they stay as just that? Or will you keep going back? Find out in Act 2 and beyond!


This is just wishful thinking. Companions are just literally alinged to be picked up at that night like red-light district prostitutes or as if high school horny teenagers who just wait for an oportunity to get laid. These are supposed to be people who have extreme backgrounds and immense experience. We are talking about people who can get into love affairs with a goddess or seen and done things with demons which granted them immense powers so that they have gone extraordianry adventures. However, somehow they get easily picked up to get laid by a person they just know for a week while they are in a mortal danger.

Do you really think it is not immersion breaker than go on have fun playing this game. I am happy for you.


What the actual hell are you talking about?

Love affairs with goddesses? Lol what?

Let's go one at a time:

Lae'zel: A githyanki, they party hard, they don't have monogomy. If you got Lae'zel pregnant, she wouldn't even tell you until after laying her eggs in a creche
Wyll: An emotionally fragile man who tries to put on a front that he's a big hero who does things heroes are supposed to do. Banging Sexy Ladies Is a Thing Heroes Do Right?!
Asterion: A vampire who's primary job is half whore and half spy. Horny af
Gale: A pretty normal wizard who obviously has access to some kind of family or organizational wealth for his research that he's lost access to. Probably because of his PROBLEM
Shadowheart: Doesn't do a one night hookup to my knowledge under any circumstance


Which one of these people is fucking gods? What things has Wyll "seen and done" with Demons? What about Asterion or Lae'zel's personalities indicates to you that they don't frequently engage in meaningless sex?
Posted By: Demoulius Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by override367
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Mister Monster
Keep in mind that this is only the first act: these are the opening motions of will -become- a romance later on in the game!

The 'hookups' at this point in time are just that; they're intended to be whirlwind, potentially alcohol-induced nights of revelry. Will they stay as just that? Or will you keep going back? Find out in Act 2 and beyond!


This is just wishful thinking. Companions are just literally alinged to be picked up at that night like red-light district prostitutes or as if high school horny teenagers who just wait for an oportunity to get laid. These are supposed to be people who have extreme backgrounds and immense experience. We are talking about people who can get into love affairs with a goddess or seen and done things with demons which granted them immense powers so that they have gone extraordianry adventures. However, somehow they get easily picked up to get laid by a person they just know for a week while they are in a mortal danger.

Do you really think it is not immersion breaker than go on have fun playing this game. I am happy for you.


What the actual hell are you talking about?

Love affairs with goddesses? Lol what?

Let's go one at a time:

Lae'zel: A githyanki, they party hard, they don't have monogomy. If you got Lae'zel pregnant, she wouldn't even tell you until after laying her eggs in a creche
Wyll: An emotionally fragile man who tries to put on a front that he's a big hero who does things heroes are supposed to do. Banging Sexy Ladies Is a Thing Heroes Do Right?!
Asterion: A vampire who's primary job is half whore and half spy. Horny af
Gale: A pretty normal wizard who obviously has access to some kind of family or organizational wealth for his research that he's lost access to.
Shadowheart: Doesn't do a one night hookup to my knowledge under any circumstance


Which one of these people is fucking gods? What things has Wyll "seen and done" with Demons? What about Asterion or Lae'zel's personalities indicates to you that they don't frequently engage in meaningless sex?

Gale didetn fuck a god per se but basicly said Mystra came to him and he had a massive crush on her.
Posted By: Nyanko Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 03:18 PM
I think the real romance part comes later. The one night stand is only during act 1. If you get one of your companion to have an excellent opinion, this is where I think the real romance starts, but later.

So far I got approval high with Shadowheart, but it doesn't seem to create new entries in our dialogues for romance. I guess you need to get higher than that.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 03:28 PM
Sorry, OP not with you. A number of my real world 'romances' have started this way. It's time for celebration, inhibitions are down and people are realizing how shared circumstances and joint tasks have brought them together.

My favorite is the slow burn, you can enjoy a bottle of wine and kiss with Shadowheart and she (consistent with the strictures of her deity) create some distance the next day.

As time goes on we will see if attraction and desire become lurve.
Posted By: Argonaut Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
That so called romance in party night at camp is waaaay far from romance. It is a very low level grab what you can kind of one night stand. I mean your party members get aligned to be picked up by PC is a huge immersion breaker.

Another huge immersion breaker is nothing really changes in dialogs or personality of the companion with whom you made love a night before. There is just some kind of "what do you think about last night" option and it is completely empty.

I don't know what you guys over there understand from romance but the thing you implemented is not romance. It is just a low level one night stand.

And, please, get rid of those over the top facial expressions of PC during dialogs. They just look like teenagers who lack self esteem rather than an adventurer who is on an epic journey about life and death in a land full of magic and danger.

It may be worse than you think.
10 common reactions to Trauma
A lot of the defense I've seen for the writing and characters is that it centers around trauma.
"9. Sexual relationships may also suffer after a traumatic experience. Many people find it difficult to feel intimate or to have sexual relationships again. This is especially true for those who have been sexually assaulted, since in addition to the lack of trust, sex itself can be a reminder of the assault."

Originally Posted by override367

Lae'zel: A githyanki, they party hard, they don't have monogomy. If you got Lae'zel pregnant, she wouldn't even tell you until after laying her eggs in a creche

FR Wiki including bibliography
"As a people, githyanki were generally proud and xenophobic. They viewed all other races with contempt[26] and were generally unwilling to learn anything about other cultures, including other languages.[14] They viewed Material Plane–dwellers as ignorant and incompetent, or, in worse cases, as potential slaves. They could only bring themselves to use magic items not of githyanki design if they were extremely powerful, and even then by rationalizing that any such items must have been designed with githyanki knowledge to begin with. It was uncommon, but not impossible, for a githyanki to overcome the prejudices of its people and start regarding others with respect."
"Within their communities, githyanki typically lived alone, unless they chose to share their dwellings with someone close. Since there were no family units, those bonds were most common among training partners."


Originally Posted by override367
Wyll: An emotionally fragile man who tries to put on a front that he's a big hero who does things heroes are supposed to do. Banging Sexy Ladies Is a Thing Heroes Do Right?!

10 Most Common Reactions to Trauma by Oxford Clinical Psychology including bibliography
"9. Sexual relationships may also suffer after a traumatic experience. Many people find it difficult to feel intimate or to have sexual relationships again. This is especially true for those who have been sexually assaulted, since in addition to the lack of trust, sex itself can be a reminder of the assault."

Originally Posted by override367
Asterion: A vampire who's primary job is half whore and half spy. Horny af

Free pass.

Originally Posted by override367
Gale: A pretty normal wizard who obviously has access to some kind of family or organizational wealth for his research that he's lost access to. Probably because of his PROBLEM

when I find a pertinent article I will link it but the trauma one applies here as well. There isn't that much research into how obsession and idolatry of someone affects casual encounters that I can source as of yet that pertains to this example.

Originally Posted by override367
Shadowheart: Doesn't do a one night hookup to my knowledge under any circumstance

Free pass, too incomplete.

Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by override367
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Mister Monster
Keep in mind that this is only the first act: these are the opening motions of will -become- a romance later on in the game!

The 'hookups' at this point in time are just that; they're intended to be whirlwind, potentially alcohol-induced nights of revelry. Will they stay as just that? Or will you keep going back? Find out in Act 2 and beyond!


This is just wishful thinking. Companions are just literally alinged to be picked up at that night like red-light district prostitutes or as if high school horny teenagers who just wait for an oportunity to get laid. These are supposed to be people who have extreme backgrounds and immense experience. We are talking about people who can get into love affairs with a goddess or seen and done things with demons which granted them immense powers so that they have gone extraordianry adventures. However, somehow they get easily picked up to get laid by a person they just know for a week while they are in a mortal danger.

Do you really think it is not immersion breaker than go on have fun playing this game. I am happy for you.


What the actual hell are you talking about?

Love affairs with goddesses? Lol what?

Let's go one at a time:

Lae'zel: A githyanki, they party hard, they don't have monogomy. If you got Lae'zel pregnant, she wouldn't even tell you until after laying her eggs in a creche
Wyll: An emotionally fragile man who tries to put on a front that he's a big hero who does things heroes are supposed to do. Banging Sexy Ladies Is a Thing Heroes Do Right?!
Asterion: A vampire who's primary job is half whore and half spy. Horny af
Gale: A pretty normal wizard who obviously has access to some kind of family or organizational wealth for his research that he's lost access to. Probably because of his PROBLEM
Shadowheart: Doesn't do a one night hookup to my knowledge under any circumstance


Which one of these people is fucking gods? What things has Wyll "seen and done" with Demons? What about Asterion or Lae'zel's personalities indicates to you that they don't frequently engage in meaningless sex?




So obviously you haven't played the game long enough or with the correct save checks.
Gale is faaaar from a normal wizard. Spoiler alert but you earned it. he was in love with a goddess and in search for godly powerful magic to get her back that's how he got into that time magic bomb situtaion. He was so poweful that he was able to move towers as if they are nothing. These ae his own words.
Wyll comes from a noble family he was super rich and privilaged. He was sent to a martial school to get stronger but he chose to pact with a powerful she demon who ganted him extraordinary powers. He used thaose powers generously and eraned a lot of favor and also enemies.

I don't know man next time if you play an RPG do not skip dialogs or just do not speak about things you don't know.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 03:44 PM
Ok, but where did it say he slept with her? I'm in love with a lot of ladies that I've never actually slept with.
Posted By: Demoulius Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by override367
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Mister Monster
Keep in mind that this is only the first act: these are the opening motions of will -become- a romance later on in the game!

The 'hookups' at this point in time are just that; they're intended to be whirlwind, potentially alcohol-induced nights of revelry. Will they stay as just that? Or will you keep going back? Find out in Act 2 and beyond!


This is just wishful thinking. Companions are just literally alinged to be picked up at that night like red-light district prostitutes or as if high school horny teenagers who just wait for an oportunity to get laid. These are supposed to be people who have extreme backgrounds and immense experience. We are talking about people who can get into love affairs with a goddess or seen and done things with demons which granted them immense powers so that they have gone extraordianry adventures. However, somehow they get easily picked up to get laid by a person they just know for a week while they are in a mortal danger.

Do you really think it is not immersion breaker than go on have fun playing this game. I am happy for you.


What the actual hell are you talking about?

Love affairs with goddesses? Lol what?

Let's go one at a time:

Lae'zel: A githyanki, they party hard, they don't have monogomy. If you got Lae'zel pregnant, she wouldn't even tell you until after laying her eggs in a creche
Wyll: An emotionally fragile man who tries to put on a front that he's a big hero who does things heroes are supposed to do. Banging Sexy Ladies Is a Thing Heroes Do Right?!
Asterion: A vampire who's primary job is half whore and half spy. Horny af
Gale: A pretty normal wizard who obviously has access to some kind of family or organizational wealth for his research that he's lost access to. Probably because of his PROBLEM
Shadowheart: Doesn't do a one night hookup to my knowledge under any circumstance


Which one of these people is fucking gods? What things has Wyll "seen and done" with Demons? What about Asterion or Lae'zel's personalities indicates to you that they don't frequently engage in meaningless sex?




So obviously you haven't played the game long enough or with the correct save checks.
Gale is faaaar from a normal wizard. Spoiler alert but you earned it. he was in love with a goddess and in search for godly powerful magic to get her back that's how he got into that time magic bomb situtaion. He was so poweful that he was able to move towers as if they are nothing. These ae his own words.
Wyll comes from a noble family he was super rich and privilaged. He was sent to a martial school to get stronger but he chose to pact with a powerful she demon who ganted him extraordinary powers. He used thaose powers generously and eraned a lot of favor and also enemies.

I don't know man next time if you play an RPG do not skip dialogs or just do not speak about things you don't know.

To be fair. Some dialogue need skill checks and can be easily missed.
Posted By: vometia Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by override367
I feel like Shadowheart's is the only one that could qualify

I dunno. I got a snog then the day after was The Day After and "I regret it now". Which was its own sort of awesomeness.
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Sorry, OP not with you. A number of my real world 'romances' have started this way. It's time for celebration, inhibitions are down and people are realizing how shared circumstances and joint tasks have brought them together.

My favorite is the slow burn, you can enjoy a bottle of wine and kiss with Shadowheart and she (consistent with the strictures of her deity) create some distance the next day.

As time goes on we will see if attraction and desire become lurve.



Maybe because you are just a regular no one. Is it possible?
However, in this game, we are in a high fantasy settings with the characters who should behave appropriately according to their experience and settings they are into. Not according to your real life experience which no one wants to play as a video game.
Posted By: override367 Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Originally Posted by override367
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Mister Monster
Keep in mind that this is only the first act: these are the opening motions of will -become- a romance later on in the game!

The 'hookups' at this point in time are just that; they're intended to be whirlwind, potentially alcohol-induced nights of revelry. Will they stay as just that? Or will you keep going back? Find out in Act 2 and beyond!


This is just wishful thinking. Companions are just literally alinged to be picked up at that night like red-light district prostitutes or as if high school horny teenagers who just wait for an oportunity to get laid. These are supposed to be people who have extreme backgrounds and immense experience. We are talking about people who can get into love affairs with a goddess or seen and done things with demons which granted them immense powers so that they have gone extraordianry adventures. However, somehow they get easily picked up to get laid by a person they just know for a week while they are in a mortal danger.

Do you really think it is not immersion breaker than go on have fun playing this game. I am happy for you.


What the actual hell are you talking about?

Love affairs with goddesses? Lol what?

Let's go one at a time:

Lae'zel: A githyanki, they party hard, they don't have monogomy. If you got Lae'zel pregnant, she wouldn't even tell you until after laying her eggs in a creche
Wyll: An emotionally fragile man who tries to put on a front that he's a big hero who does things heroes are supposed to do. Banging Sexy Ladies Is a Thing Heroes Do Right?!
Asterion: A vampire who's primary job is half whore and half spy. Horny af
Gale: A pretty normal wizard who obviously has access to some kind of family or organizational wealth for his research that he's lost access to.
Shadowheart: Doesn't do a one night hookup to my knowledge under any circumstance


Which one of these people is fucking gods? What things has Wyll "seen and done" with Demons? What about Asterion or Lae'zel's personalities indicates to you that they don't frequently engage in meaningless sex?

Gale didetn fuck a god per se but basicly said Mystra came to him and he had a massive crush on her.


I'm glad they're keeping to the current lore, Mystra is super active in the world, and if you are going to cause a magical cataclysm, expect a visit from her, Elminster, or Storm
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Maybe because you are just a regular no one. Is it possible?

<cough>

Wow.
Posted By: override367 Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Sorry, OP not with you. A number of my real world 'romances' have started this way. It's time for celebration, inhibitions are down and people are realizing how shared circumstances and joint tasks have brought them together.

My favorite is the slow burn, you can enjoy a bottle of wine and kiss with Shadowheart and she (consistent with the strictures of her deity) create some distance the next day.

As time goes on we will see if attraction and desire become lurve.



Maybe because you are just a regular no one. Is it possible?
However, in this game, we are in a high fantasy settings with the characters who should behave appropriately according to their experience and settings they are into. Not according to your real life experience which no one wants to play as a video game.


It's in the Forgotten realms, the Sword Coast

A fantasy setting that has no social mores against hookups

Nobody is making you hook up with any of your party members

I can cite you textual evidence of the behavior your companions display being normal for the setting if you want, and if you don't want it and prefer to stick to realism, I suggest you look up what happens at the Olympic Village every time the Olympics is held
Posted By: Argonaut Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by override367

I'm glad they're keeping to the current lore, Mystra is super active in the world, and if you are going to cause a magical cataclysm, expect a visit from her, Elminster, or Storm

Forgotten Realms wiki article for Mystra including bibliography

1 - "Toward the end of her reign as the keeper of the Weave, she had grown tired and bitter, fed up with the schemes, maneuverings, and blatant attacks that her preeminent position attracted from every power-hungry being, sycophant, and fawning parasite, for century after century. Her pride in her status, and the kindness and respect she received from those that aided or worshiped her for other than magical gain, kept her hopes alive."

2 - "As the centuries passed, Mystra had grown tired of the ceaseless grasping for power through pleading, flattery, or treachery. She and her portfolio were the target of gods and mortals alike and that took its toll on the Mother of All Magic."

Mystra was super active in the world. This is post time of troubles.

Just for contrast, here is the wiki entry on Gale.

"Gale has one ambition: to become the greatest wizard Faerûn has ever known. Yet his thirst for magic led to disaster. A Netherese Destruction Orb beats in his chest, counting down to an explosion that can level a city. Gale is confident he'll overcome it, but time is not on his side."

Totally 'accurate' Mystra and FR Lore here yep no discrepancies.



Posted By: override367 Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:14 PM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by sinogy
That so called romance in party night at camp is waaaay far from romance. It is a very low level grab what you can kind of one night stand. I mean your party members get aligned to be picked up by PC is a huge immersion breaker.

Another huge immersion breaker is nothing really changes in dialogs or personality of the companion with whom you made love a night before. There is just some kind of "what do you think about last night" option and it is completely empty.

I don't know what you guys over there understand from romance but the thing you implemented is not romance. It is just a low level one night stand.

And, please, get rid of those over the top facial expressions of PC during dialogs. They just look like teenagers who lack self esteem rather than an adventurer who is on an epic journey about life and death in a land full of magic and danger.

It may be worse than you think.
10 common reactions to Trauma
A lot of the defense I've seen for the writing and characters is that it centers around trauma.
"9. Sexual relationships may also suffer after a traumatic experience. Many people find it difficult to feel intimate or to have sexual relationships again. This is especially true for those who have been sexually assaulted, since in addition to the lack of trust, sex itself can be a reminder of the assault."

Originally Posted by override367

Lae'zel: A githyanki, they party hard, they don't have monogomy. If you got Lae'zel pregnant, she wouldn't even tell you until after laying her eggs in a creche

FR Wiki including bibliography
"As a people, githyanki were generally proud and xenophobic. They viewed all other races with contempt[26] and were generally unwilling to learn anything about other cultures, including other languages.[14] They viewed Material Plane–dwellers as ignorant and incompetent, or, in worse cases, as potential slaves. They could only bring themselves to use magic items not of githyanki design if they were extremely powerful, and even then by rationalizing that any such items must have been designed with githyanki knowledge to begin with. It was uncommon, but not impossible, for a githyanki to overcome the prejudices of its people and start regarding others with respect."
"Within their communities, githyanki typically lived alone, unless they chose to share their dwellings with someone close. Since there were no family units, those bonds were most common among training partners."


Originally Posted by override367
Wyll: An emotionally fragile man who tries to put on a front that he's a big hero who does things heroes are supposed to do. Banging Sexy Ladies Is a Thing Heroes Do Right?!

10 Most Common Reactions to Trauma by Oxford Clinical Psychology including bibliography
"9. Sexual relationships may also suffer after a traumatic experience. Many people find it difficult to feel intimate or to have sexual relationships again. This is especially true for those who have been sexually assaulted, since in addition to the lack of trust, sex itself can be a reminder of the assault."

Originally Posted by override367
Asterion: A vampire who's primary job is half whore and half spy. Horny af

Free pass.

Originally Posted by override367
Gale: A pretty normal wizard who obviously has access to some kind of family or organizational wealth for his research that he's lost access to. Probably because of his PROBLEM

when I find a pertinent article I will link it but the trauma one applies here as well. There isn't that much research into how obsession and idolatry of someone affects casual encounters that I can source as of yet that pertains to this example.

Originally Posted by override367
Shadowheart: Doesn't do a one night hookup to my knowledge under any circumstance

Free pass, too incomplete.



Hey, as a victim of sexual assault, I'd thank you to gtfo trying to say that we can't have consequence free hookups, because you're wrong

I would prefer for someone like Wyll, that to actually develop a ROMANCE with him that instead of hooking up the first time you guys party together, you talk instead (like with Shadowheart)
Posted By: Argonaut Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:15 PM
Common
1. occurring, found, or done often; prevalent.

Impossible
1. not able to occur, exist, or be done.

Take it up with Oxford Clinical and the findings of thousands of test subjects. Stop trying to bring yourself into it. Address the facts and evidence in their entirety. Thank you.

Some other good reading:
Statistical Deviation
What is a Statistical Anomaly



Posted By: vometia Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by sinogy
Maybe because you are just a regular no one. Is it possible?

<cough>

Wow.

I presume they meant the PC, not the player...
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by sinogy
Maybe because you are just a regular no one. Is it possible?

<cough>

Wow.

I presume they meant the PC, not the player...

In context, I'm not so sure. However, benefit of the doubt and all that.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by override367
I feel like Shadowheart's is the only one that could qualify

I dunno. I got a snog then the day after was The Day After and "I regret it now". Which was its own sort of awesomeness.


It was. We really needed an awkward breakfast moment to make it complete. "So . . . Uh . . . Good eggs huh? mmm. what should we do today? "
Posted By: override367 Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by override367

I'm glad they're keeping to the current lore, Mystra is super active in the world, and if you are going to cause a magical cataclysm, expect a visit from her, Elminster, or Storm

Forgotten Realms wiki article for Mystra including bibliography

1 - "Toward the end of her reign as the keeper of the Weave, she had grown tired and bitter, fed up with the schemes, maneuverings, and blatant attacks that her preeminent position attracted from every power-hungry being, sycophant, and fawning parasite, for century after century. Her pride in her status, and the kindness and respect she received from those that aided or worshiped her for other than magical gain, kept her hopes alive."

2 - "As the centuries passed, Mystra had grown tired of the ceaseless grasping for power through pleading, flattery, or treachery. She and her portfolio were the target of gods and mortals alike and that took its toll on the Mother of All Magic."

Mystra was super active in the world. This is post time of troubles.

Just for contrast, here is the wiki entry on Gale.

"Gale has one ambition: to become the greatest wizard Faerûn has ever known. Yet his thirst for magic led to disaster. A Netherese Destruction Orb beats in his chest, counting down to an explosion that can level a city. Gale is confident he'll overcome it, but time is not on his side."

Totally 'accurate' Mystra and FR Lore here yep no discrepancies.





Please click the source on that Wiki, and ask yourself what timeline a book written in 1989 would take place in.

You are talking about Mystra, the goddess of magic after Mystral, and keeper of the weave for many centuries, and murdered by Cyric.

I'm talking about Mystra, the new goddess of magic who arose at the same time the most high of Netheril was put down by Elminster and the Srinshee over Myth Drannor

Mystra is only ~14 years old at the time of baldur's gate 3! Citation: "The Herald", Ed Greenwood, 2014, about the Second Sundering, the reestablishment of the weave, and the birth of Mystra
Posted By: robertthebard Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by sinogy
Maybe because you are just a regular no one. Is it possible?

<cough>

Wow.

I presume they meant the PC, not the player...

That was my take away from it, and, it's true. In so far as a Custom Character is concerned, we have our backstory that we make up, and nobody else may have ever even heard of us.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by override367
Mystra is only ~14 years old at the time of baldur's gate 3! Citation: "The Herald", Ed Greenwood, 2014, about the Second Sundering, the reestablishment of the weave, and the birth of Mystra

Ed Greenwood?

What would he know about Forgotten Realms lore?

T'cha.
Posted By: override367 Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:28 PM
In Death Masks, which takes place concurrently with the campaign module Storm King's Thunder, Mystra is even seen by a homeless guy in Waterdeep when she's bugging Elminster, later she (seems to) castigate the blackstaff, but mostly leaves things to her chosen when they're available.

She is a young and brash goddess, possessing many of the old Mystra's memories, but being her own person, and especially being a lot more secretive with her chosen

My GUESS is that Gale is on the knife's edge of becoming a new chosen of Mystra or dying horribly. Mystra is currently recruiting, big time

In fact Laerel is Open Lord of Waterdeep only because the reborn Mystra commanded it, in Death Masks they directly comment on how unusual it is for a god to take such a direct role in mortal governance, but Mystra is super keen on increasing the number of spellcasters in Faerun, and creating more egalitarian access to The Art
Posted By: Demoulius Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:31 PM
Out of sll the gods I figured Mystra would be the one more active ones. She has her own little fanclub and everything :p

Both sound like good fits when you listen to Gale though. Maybe he was sincere at first but later the god perceived or felt that he was trying to use her for his own gain and decided to dissapear.

Would explain why she suddenly was gone and why Gale went to such extremes to try and get back into her good graces.

Also. Punished by making him lvl 1 again. Thats harsh!
Posted By: robertthebard Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Out of sll the gods I figured Mystra would be the one more active ones. She has her own little fanclub and everything :p

Both sound like good fits when you listen to Gale though. Maybe he was sincere at first but later the god perceived or felt that he was trying to use her for his own gain and decided to dissapear.

Would explain why she suddenly was gone and why Gale went to such extremes to try and get back into her good graces.

Also. Punished by making him lvl 1 again. Thats harsh!

Damn, she took all her toys and went home. hahaha
Posted By: Argonaut Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by override367
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by override367

I'm glad they're keeping to the current lore, Mystra is super active in the world, and if you are going to cause a magical cataclysm, expect a visit from her, Elminster, or Storm

Forgotten Realms wiki article for Mystra including bibliography

1 - "Toward the end of her reign as the keeper of the Weave, she had grown tired and bitter, fed up with the schemes, maneuverings, and blatant attacks that her preeminent position attracted from every power-hungry being, sycophant, and fawning parasite, for century after century. Her pride in her status, and the kindness and respect she received from those that aided or worshiped her for other than magical gain, kept her hopes alive."

2 - "As the centuries passed, Mystra had grown tired of the ceaseless grasping for power through pleading, flattery, or treachery. She and her portfolio were the target of gods and mortals alike and that took its toll on the Mother of All Magic."

Mystra was super active in the world. This is post time of troubles.

Just for contrast, here is the wiki entry on Gale.

"Gale has one ambition: to become the greatest wizard Faerûn has ever known. Yet his thirst for magic led to disaster. A Netherese Destruction Orb beats in his chest, counting down to an explosion that can level a city. Gale is confident he'll overcome it, but time is not on his side."

Totally 'accurate' Mystra and FR Lore here yep no discrepancies.





Please click the source on that Wiki, and ask yourself what timeline a book written in 1989 would take place in.

You are talking about Mystra, the goddess of magic after Mystral, and keeper of the weave for many centuries.

I'm talking about Mystra, the new goddess of magic who arose at the same time the most high of Netheril was put down by Elminster and the Srinshee over Myth Drannor

Mystra is only ~14 years old at the time of baldur's gate 3! Citation: "The Herald", Ed Greenwood, 2014, about the Second Sundering, the reestablishment of the weave, and the birth of Mystra


I am aware, here, from the same Wiki.

"In the Year of the Ageless One, 1479 DR, while recuperating in a cabin in the King's Forest, Elminster felt Mystra's presence calling to him. He found her much diminished, possessing the body of a bear that had guarded a cache of items Mystra's still-mortal form had collected. She asked her most trusted servant to find new candidates to become Chosen and to recruit Cormyr's War Wizards.[20]"

Anything not altered means there is no opposing evidence to contradict it in new materials. Mystra herself is not looking for new Chosen, the current Chosen are the ones doing that. Did you forget about the other consequences of the time of troubles such as Ao directly commanding all gods that they cannot directly interfere with the mortal world in any way whatsoever? This is why gods now have champions. The only setting in which this rule does not apply is Eberron FYI.

Please try again, sources and citations.

You like The Second Sundering right?
The Second Sundering
"Most of the gods created many Chosen among mortals, trying to gather as much power as possible to be as high in divine ranking as they could before Ao completed the new Tablets of Fate, sealing their status and portfolio.[9] People started to claim they had been "chosen" by the gods and granted special powers, some apparently for "divine purposes" while others had no idea why"
Posted By: azarhal Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by override367
I feel like Shadowheart's is the only one that could qualify

I dunno. I got a snog then the day after was The Day After and "I regret it now". Which was its own sort of awesomeness.


"It was the wine talking"

I can't decide if she is a tsundere or if she doesn't want a personal relationship.


Posted By: Abits Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Correct, it is not Romance.

The developers could hardly market it as 'One-night stand screwing' though.

Lol.

For the op - romance is a very loose term that in video games generally means "if I'll say what my waifu wants to hear enough time, she will allow me to bang her". If that's what you meant by romance perhaps it's better without it.
Posted By: IdPreferNotTo Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:38 PM
Depends how you look at it. To me there's romance in the game as it is now. It just hasn't developed into obvious levels yet, I guess. Unless you count the dreams you have with the tadpole mindfucking you with the hallusinations of you prancing around on the summer meadows with your dream beau. Don't think the burn is slow enough for my liking though. Shadowheart is fine as a slow burn, if you're into the drag-pull way of romancing and don't mind her baggage as something overtly familiar or uninteresting. The NPCs let it slip in different ways they're looking for love, not just a night in the sack.

I don't think of the romances we have, even leave room for the "plain screwing approach", if you're into holding on to that thought any length of time. Some people seem to think Minthara fills the position in the game, but she's basically the most devout romantic of the lot. She's like the possessed Drow version of Merril from Dragon age 2, who also was estranged from her kin, on a overblown suicidal trajectory and was actively manipulated(though not yet possessed) by a supernatural entity. They both also blurt out that they love the PC after the first time you have sex. While the scared Minthara, "whose entire being is laid bare before you" after you screw her, just doesn't say it in such an obvious way. But there are those adorable telltale romantic gestures: like her bungling an assassination attempt and her affirming her belief in gender equality(saying something like "you're mine and I'm yours") after you convince her you're also still a useful tool to the absolute.
Posted By: override367 Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by override367
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by override367

I'm glad they're keeping to the current lore, Mystra is super active in the world, and if you are going to cause a magical cataclysm, expect a visit from her, Elminster, or Storm

Forgotten Realms wiki article for Mystra including bibliography

1 - "Toward the end of her reign as the keeper of the Weave, she had grown tired and bitter, fed up with the schemes, maneuverings, and blatant attacks that her preeminent position attracted from every power-hungry being, sycophant, and fawning parasite, for century after century. Her pride in her status, and the kindness and respect she received from those that aided or worshiped her for other than magical gain, kept her hopes alive."

2 - "As the centuries passed, Mystra had grown tired of the ceaseless grasping for power through pleading, flattery, or treachery. She and her portfolio were the target of gods and mortals alike and that took its toll on the Mother of All Magic."

Mystra was super active in the world. This is post time of troubles.

Just for contrast, here is the wiki entry on Gale.

"Gale has one ambition: to become the greatest wizard Faerûn has ever known. Yet his thirst for magic led to disaster. A Netherese Destruction Orb beats in his chest, counting down to an explosion that can level a city. Gale is confident he'll overcome it, but time is not on his side."

Totally 'accurate' Mystra and FR Lore here yep no discrepancies.





Please click the source on that Wiki, and ask yourself what timeline a book written in 1989 would take place in.

You are talking about Mystra, the goddess of magic after Mystral, and keeper of the weave for many centuries.

I'm talking about Mystra, the new goddess of magic who arose at the same time the most high of Netheril was put down by Elminster and the Srinshee over Myth Drannor

Mystra is only ~14 years old at the time of baldur's gate 3! Citation: "The Herald", Ed Greenwood, 2014, about the Second Sundering, the reestablishment of the weave, and the birth of Mystra


I am aware, here, from the same Wiki.

"In the Year of the Ageless One, 1479 DR, while recuperating in a cabin in the King's Forest, Elminster felt Mystra's presence calling to him. He found her much diminished, possessing the body of a bear that had guarded a cache of items Mystra's still-mortal form had collected. She asked her most trusted servant to find new candidates to become Chosen and to recruit Cormyr's War Wizards.[20]"

Anything not altered means there is no opposing evidence to contradict it in new materials. Mystra herself is not looking for new Chosen, the current Chosen are the ones doing that. Did you forget about the other consequences of the time of troubles such as Ao directly commanding all gods that they cannot directly interfere with the mortal world in any way whatsoever? This is why gods now have champions. The only setting in which this rule does not apply is Eberron FYI.

Please try again, sources and citations.


in Death Masks she is directly, and personally, ordering Elminster. She seems to be rapidly regaining power with the fall of Shar's Shadoweave scheme

Given the completion of the new Host Tower of the Arcane at the hands of one of her chosen and the creation of a kind of Avengers of Wizards (A netherese lord, the most powerful drow wizard, a cloud giant, and one of her chosen, this happens in the last 3 R.A. Salvatore novels), and one of Mystra's Chosen literally running waterdeep at her command (again, death masks), it stands to reason that she is rapidly gaining power, because she visited Gale in person (citation: Baldur's Gate 3, Larian Studios)

I'm not arguing with you that her Chosen are her hands in Faerun, so the question is "why visit Gale personally?", my guess is that she wants to recruit him, since she's recruiting right now (Companions, Death Masks). Mystra doesn't personally solve anything for her Chosen, she merely commands them, but old Mystra visited potential chosen before they became chosen, and there's no textual evidence against new Mystra doing that.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:39 PM
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Also. Punished by making him lvl 1 again. Thats harsh!

It lets him grow to be a better person than he was before.

Or at least take a more optimised build.
Posted By: Cowoline Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:40 PM
For the love of... It's the first act and what we see is only the start of the relationship. Just because it starts with sex doesn't mean it doesn't evolve, and it differs from character to character. Just be patient. They did a good job in DOS2, so I'm sure this will be fine too.
Posted By: Klawz Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:43 PM
They've done romance very well, from what we've seen so far. You can either have a one-night stand from Laz / Ant, or persue Shadow / Gale for an actual relationship. Usual RPGs is basically you tick a few boxes or do a quest and they suddenly fall for you, in BG3 it (so far) looks like a more grounded approach where you can sleep with someone who's horny at a party or take some time to actually court somebody. This also feels natural with the companions personallity types - you've got the implulsive and more mature adventurers.
Posted By: Argonaut Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by override367


in Death Masks she is directly, and personally, ordering Elminster. She seems to be rapidly regaining power with the fall of Shar's Shadoweave scheme

Given the completion of the new Host Tower of the Arcane at the hands of one of her chosen and the creation of a kind of Avengers of Wizards (A netherese lord, the most powerful drow wizard, a cloud giant, and one of her chosen), and one of Mystra's Chosen literally running waterdeep at her command (again, death masks), it stands to reason that she is rapidly gaining power, because she visited Gale in person (citation: Baldur's Gate 3, Larian Studios)

MY GUESS is that Gale is a potential Chosen, warranting her visiting him personally

No, as you said her influence is defined by the actions of her Chosen and not herself. One of her chosen must approach the mortal champion and first be offered this knowing fully what he is committing to. Ao directly forbade gods to influence the world in any other way. This was a direct consequence of the time of troubles, the Era of Upheaval and the Second Sundering.

Think about what you are saying very carefully. You are saying Mystra directly contacted a mortal and forced him into a contract without explaining anything when more than enough of her power has become capable in order to do this and either:

a) Gave him a task that he failed, invalidating him as a potential chosen.
b) Approves of his thirst for power despite this being the thing Mystra hates and has suffered at the hands of AND places all the restrictions that currently exist on magic.

You are saying that you think that MYSTRA trusts a power hungry mortal and sought him out and still seeks him out despite his added on ineptitude and the damage he is doing to the balance of the weave with his subsequent actions. Please.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by Cowoline
For the love of... It's the first act and what we see is only the start of the relationship. Just because it starts with sex doesn't mean it doesn't evolve, and it differs from character to character. Just be patient.

I'm of this opinion too. The 'romance' at this stage is a 'getting to know you' roll in the sack. Hopefully a deeper relationship is possible with at least some of the Companions as the game progresses.

Although, I'm not sure I want to pursue that option with the current crop.
Posted By: Horrorscope Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:47 PM
When you are talking romance in RPG's like this, I can only picture Marvin. "This is going to end in tears". For some reason as a community we can't handle this topic well, it is so subjective, one likes to think it will mature, but we have some high hurdles to jump in this area for us all to be in somewhat of an agreement.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by override367
I feel like Shadowheart's is the only one that could qualify

I dunno. I got a snog then the day after was The Day After and "I regret it now". Which was its own sort of awesomeness.


"It was the wine talking"

I can't decide if she is a tsundere or if she doesn't want a personal relationship.





I'm voting for tsundre tied to a crisis of faith. She worships the goddess of loss not the the god of hope and new beginnings.
Posted By: Demoulius Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Also. Punished by making him lvl 1 again. Thats harsh!

It lets him grow to be a better person than he was before.

Or at least take a more optimised build.

Hmm maybe she saw a big flaw in his build and shes letting him reroll 🤔
Posted By: override367 Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by override367
I feel like Shadowheart's is the only one that could qualify

I dunno. I got a snog then the day after was The Day After and "I regret it now". Which was its own sort of awesomeness.


"It was the wine talking"

I can't decide if she is a tsundere or if she doesn't want a personal relationship.





I'm voting for tsundre tied to a crisis of faith. She worships the goddess of loss not the the god of hope and new beginnings.


Shar doesn't allow for genuine caring, Shar does allow for sex for fun or advantage, just like Dark Elves. Everyone needs to keep themselves secret.

MY THEORY is that she's ACTUALLY a cleric of Selune, but Sharrites wiped her memory and turned her onto their religion. She's actually a good person, under there, and depending on the player will embrace Shar or rediscover who she was
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by sinogy
Maybe because you are just a regular no one. Is it possible?

<cough>

Wow.

I presume they meant the PC, not the player...


who are them?
anyways I am talking very much about that particular player.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by override367
MY THEORY is that she's ACTUALLY a cleric of Selune, but Sharrites wiped her memory and turned her onto their religion. She's actually a good person, under there, and depending on the player will embrace Shar or rediscover who she was

Larian need to give her a pair of glasses and a hair bun. Then, when she changes personality to be a better person, she can whip the glasses off, undo her hair, and the PC can say, "Why, Miss Shadowheart, you're really a beautiful person."

Of course, it might be a double transformation - pretending to be a cleric of Selune pretending a cleric of Shar, but actually an agent of Lolth. The hostility with Laz'el is all just part of the deception plan.
Posted By: vometia Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 09:55 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
who are them?
anyways I am talking very much about that particular player.

Well don't; it's rude, disruptive and likely to get you a suspension.
Posted By: Nyanko Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by override367
MY THEORY is that she's ACTUALLY a cleric of Selune, but Sharrites wiped her memory and turned her onto their religion. She's actually a good person, under there, and depending on the player will embrace Shar or rediscover who she was


Interesting theory. When she told me about her wiped memory, I actually thought about Total Recall, and I told myself: "What if she was really evil but they wiped some of her past so she can seem to be an almost decent character and mingle with people they need her to spy on, or even murder."
Posted By: Synaryn Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 10:18 PM
The romances are obviously not complete, this is Act 1, not the entire game. We have zero idea how these romances play out later or how they will develop.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 10:26 PM
Every time I read the thread title, I have, going round in my head, the classic Public Image Limited song, This is Not a Love Song.

If I can earworm anyone else with the song, my work here is done.
Posted By: Dominemesis Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 10:31 PM
Unfortunately, I wouldn't worry about it with the current set of companions because I don't like any of them enough to want to romance. A one night smash or lover of convenience tops with these unlikeable rabble, none of them are personable enough to warrant a relationship.
Posted By: Xeneize Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 10:37 PM
This is only Act 1... it stands to reason romance won't be fully developed in one chapter, or that every companion will go all out in one night. I suspect it further develops as the game goes.
Posted By: FatePeddler Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
That so called romance in party night at camp is waaaay far from romance. It is a very low level grab what you can kind of one night stand. I mean your party members get aligned to be picked up by PC is a huge immersion breaker.

Another huge immersion breaker is nothing really changes in dialogs or personality of the companion with whom you made love a night before. There is just some kind of "what do you think about last night" option and it is completely empty.

I don't know what you guys over there understand from romance but the thing you implemented is not romance. It is just a low level one night stand.

And, please, get rid of those over the top facial expressions of PC during dialogs. They just look like teenagers who lack self esteem rather than an adventurer who is on an epic journey about life and death in a land full of magic and danger.



This is incorrect, if you get with Astarion and have Best Friend status with him, he says, "Hello, Lover." When you engage dialogue with him up. My Twitter post ^^

Also, it is only chapter 1 and Astarion is clearly only wanted a small fling. It definitely looks like in the future he will open up to you more when you pursue him ^^.
Posted By: AngryFan_ Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
It will turn into romance if you pursue it to the end of the game. How many people have you slept with one time that wanted to spend the rest of their life with you right after?
I have only slept with one person. And I married her first... So maybe not everyone is a whore here. Like you seem to be.
Posted By: Osprey39 Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Mister Monster
Keep in mind that this is only the first act: these are the opening motions of will -become- a romance later on in the game!

The 'hookups' at this point in time are just that; they're intended to be whirlwind, potentially alcohol-induced nights of revelry. Will they stay as just that? Or will you keep going back? Find out in Act 2 and beyond!


This is just wishful thinking. Companions are just literally alinged to be picked up at that night like red-light district prostitutes or as if high school horny teenagers who just wait for an oportunity to get laid. These are supposed to be people who have extreme backgrounds and immense experience. We are talking about people who can get into love affairs with a goddess or seen and done things with demons which granted them immense powers so that they have gone extraordianry adventures. However, somehow they get easily picked up to get laid by a person they just know for a week while they are in a mortal danger.

Do you really think it is not immersion breaker than go on have fun playing this game. I am happy for you.


I've said it before and I'll say it again. "Romance" in these games is just stupid. Maybe it's because of the generation I'm from but trying to get lucky with a computer game character is just ridiculous to me. It's not even like it's hard to achieve that goal and the correct dialogue choices are usually blatantly obvious. Don't worry, if you can't figure it out, the internet will tell you the right things to say. It's just silly and I wish I could just enjoy a good adventure without having to dodge around the contrived romantic sub-plots.
Posted By: vometia Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by AngryFan_
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
It will turn into romance if you pursue it to the end of the game. How many people have you slept with one time that wanted to spend the rest of their life with you right after?
I have only slept with one person. And I married her first... So maybe not everyone is a whore here. Like you seem to be.

Don't insult other forum members or I'll ban you.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by Osprey39
I've said it before and I'll say it again. "Romance" in these games is just stupid. Maybe it's because of the generation I'm from but trying to get lucky with a computer game character is just ridiculous to me. It's not even like it's hard to achieve that goal and the correct dialogue choices are usually blatantly obvious. Don't worry, if you can't figure it out, the internet will tell you the right things to say. It's just silly and I wish I could just enjoy a good adventure without having to dodge around the contrived romantic sub-plots.


Of course it's stupid... (almost) always was, but for some reason, it's kinda expected for RPGs at this point. It's a trope, and it can actually be detremental to the reception a game receives these days. Just take The Outer Worlds, for instance, and how much sh*t Obsidian got pre-release, when they specifically stated that there will be NO romances in the game, because they thought it to be non-sensical to have them in the story they wanted to tell.

Romances can work, though... if they are well written and fit/have a place in the narrative (Jaheira in BG2, Annah in Planescape Torment), but usually they are just a "checkbox feature", and convoluted as hell.
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by Dominemesis
Unfortunately, I wouldn't worry about it with the current set of companions because I don't like any of them enough to want to romance. A one night smash or lover of convenience tops with these unlikeable rabble, none of them are personable enough to warrant a relationship.


Exactly this too. These companions are not likeable, not even a bit. They are all either too special with some great mysteries or too edgy. They are like written by 15 years olds!

Plus, I don't think there is a reasonable romance mechanics in this game other than hooking up at nights in camp or some other places then force us to pretend that was some deep or special moment. What I mean is if you are dedicated to put romance in your game, which is a bad idea most of the time, you should consider a lot of things. I mean you go into fights against monsters along side the person you've slept with a night before and maybe she cast a saving spell on you and then what? Just go on with the quest like a robot as if she didn't save your life a minute ago!
Posted By: Osprey39 Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by Osprey39
I've said it before and I'll say it again. "Romance" in these games is just stupid. Maybe it's because of the generation I'm from but trying to get lucky with a computer game character is just ridiculous to me. It's not even like it's hard to achieve that goal and the correct dialogue choices are usually blatantly obvious. Don't worry, if you can't figure it out, the internet will tell you the right things to say. It's just silly and I wish I could just enjoy a good adventure without having to dodge around the contrived romantic sub-plots.


Of course it's stupid... (almost) always was, but for some reason, it's kinda expected for RPGs at this point. It's a trope, and it can actually be detremental to the reception a game receives these days. Just take The Outer Worlds, for instance, and how much sh*t Obsidian got pre-release, when they specifically stated that there will be NO romances in the game, because they thought it to be non-sensical to have them in the story they wanted to tell.


The people that were upset are probably the same ones I hear talking about "waifus" when I play World of Warships laugh
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: This is not romance! - 21/10/20 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Exactly this too. These companions are not likeable, not even a bit. They are all either too special with some great mysteries or too edgy. They are like written by 15 years olds!

Plus, I don't think there is a reasonable romance mechanics in this game other than hooking up at nights in camp or some other places then force us to pretend that was some deep or special moment. What I mean is if you are dedicated to put romance in your game, which is a bad idea most of the time, you should consider a lot of things. I mean you go into fights against monsters along side the person you've slept with a night before and maybe she cast a saving spell on you and then what? Just go on with the quest like a robot as if she didn't save your life a minute ago!


That's usually how it goes, yea... and it's also usually the best way to tell if a "romance" is part of the actual narrative or just in there, well, just because. Cheap titillation.
Posted By: AngryFan_ Re: This is not romance! - 22/10/20 12:01 AM
Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by AngryFan_
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
It will turn into romance if you pursue it to the end of the game. How many people have you slept with one time that wanted to spend the rest of their life with you right after?
I have only slept with one person. And I married her first... So maybe not everyone is a whore here. Like you seem to be.

Don't insult other forum members or I'll ban you.


-Removed for failing to listen-
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 22/10/20 12:06 AM
Originally Posted by Osprey39
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Mister Monster
Keep in mind that this is only the first act: these are the opening motions of will -become- a romance later on in the game!

The 'hookups' at this point in time are just that; they're intended to be whirlwind, potentially alcohol-induced nights of revelry. Will they stay as just that? Or will you keep going back? Find out in Act 2 and beyond!


This is just wishful thinking. Companions are just literally alinged to be picked up at that night like red-light district prostitutes or as if high school horny teenagers who just wait for an oportunity to get laid. These are supposed to be people who have extreme backgrounds and immense experience. We are talking about people who can get into love affairs with a goddess or seen and done things with demons which granted them immense powers so that they have gone extraordianry adventures. However, somehow they get easily picked up to get laid by a person they just know for a week while they are in a mortal danger.

Do you really think it is not immersion breaker than go on have fun playing this game. I am happy for you.


I've said it before and I'll say it again. "Romance" in these games is just stupid. Maybe it's because of the generation I'm from but trying to get lucky with a computer game character is just ridiculous to me. It's not even like it's hard to achieve that goal and the correct dialogue choices are usually blatantly obvious. Don't worry, if you can't figure it out, the internet will tell you the right things to say. It's just silly and I wish I could just enjoy a good adventure without having to dodge around the contrived romantic sub-plots.



Bravo. You summed up perfectly. This game lacks a lot of cool DnD mechanics yet the developers seemed to be so eager to serve some kind of totally unnecessary mechanics they call romance! At least, they could have made it optional. As you said perfectly not every player should spend some of their play time trying to dodge the contrived romantic sub-plots.

I mean we are talking about a cRPG without day/night cycle, with free camera scouting which renders DnD scouting mechanics useless, with wherever and whenever you wish long rest which renders so many mechanics in terms of magic economy and party setups useless, etc. etc... Yet, what we are served is some so called romance dialog options with unlikeable characters.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: This is not romance! - 22/10/20 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Bravo. You summed up perfectly. This game lacks a lot of cool DnD mechanics yet the developers seemed to be so eager to serve some kind of totally unnecessary mechanics they call romance! At least, they could have made it optional. As you said perfectly not every player should spend some of their play time trying to dodge the contrived romantic sub-plots.

I mean we are talking about a cRPG without day/night cycle, with free camera scouting which renders DnD scouting mechanics, with wherever and whenever you wish long rest which renders so many mechanics in terms of magic economy and party setups, etc. etc... Yet, what we are served is some so called romance dialog options with unlikeable characters.


Well, that's catering to mass market tastes for ya... is it really so unexpected, though? You played Larian games before, haven't you? wink
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 22/10/20 12:23 AM
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by sinogy
Bravo. You summed up perfectly. This game lacks a lot of cool DnD mechanics yet the developers seemed to be so eager to serve some kind of totally unnecessary mechanics they call romance! At least, they could have made it optional. As you said perfectly not every player should spend some of their play time trying to dodge the contrived romantic sub-plots.

I mean we are talking about a cRPG without day/night cycle, with free camera scouting which renders DnD scouting mechanics, with wherever and whenever you wish long rest which renders so many mechanics in terms of magic economy and party setups, etc. etc... Yet, what we are served is some so called romance dialog options with unlikeable characters.


Well, that's catering to mass market tastes for ya... is it really so unexpected, though? You played Larian games before, haven't you? wink


Yeah unfortunately that's that...

I played DOS2 until the last act then I quit. I mean it was an ok game but not a great game which almost everybody says so!

I was foolishly hoping BG3 was gonna be a true DnD cRPG. But, the design path Larian has taken for BG3 is too clear to ignore. It's gonna be DOS3.
It is so obvious. Heck, even the marketing art has the same language. Look at he banner at the top. It has the same design approach with that of DOS2.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: This is not romance! - 22/10/20 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by sinogy
Bravo. You summed up perfectly. This game lacks a lot of cool DnD mechanics yet the developers seemed to be so eager to serve some kind of totally unnecessary mechanics they call romance! At least, they could have made it optional. As you said perfectly not every player should spend some of their play time trying to dodge the contrived romantic sub-plots.

I mean we are talking about a cRPG without day/night cycle, with free camera scouting which renders DnD scouting mechanics, with wherever and whenever you wish long rest which renders so many mechanics in terms of magic economy and party setups, etc. etc... Yet, what we are served is some so called romance dialog options with unlikeable characters.


Well, that's catering to mass market tastes for ya... is it really so unexpected, though? You played Larian games before, haven't you? wink


Yeah unfortunately that's that...

I played DOS2 until the last act then I quit. I mean it was an ok game but not a great game which almost everybody says so!

I was foolishly hoping BG3 was gonna be a true DnD cRPG. But, the design path Larian has taken for BG3 is too clear to ignore. It's gonna be DOS3.


Yup, seams like it... then again, look at the lack of widespread success other games in this current CRPG renaissance (Pillars1+2, Pathfinder) have achieved. Like it or not, actual, mechanically solid (and thus more complex) CRPG's are still niche in today's games market. DOS1+2 not so much... so they did something "right" there (ie. they simply replaced what made past CRPG's great, with "dumbed down" spectacle and wacky humor... but don't quote me on that. wink )
Posted By: Eddiar Re: This is not romance! - 22/10/20 12:37 AM
Certain things need to be changed for sure.

1) Don't make everyone horny. The flirting between characters should be an on going thing throughout the gameplay and concluded then.
Yes Affinity and character's approval of you is important but it totally feels weird for Gale to be hitting on me randomly that night and being so crushed that I turn him down... its just cringe man.

Have Gale try to flirt with my character, I turn him down, He grumbles. This could be randomly generated event as I play the game. Like the time I stepped in front of the crossbow to protect Sazza. Have him say something that I could respond with a flirt. This should start the series of flirty dialogue lines that both Gale and player experience until the Tiefling party where finally Gale and my character decide to take it further.

That would feel much more organic.
And if it HAS to happen that night then here is option 2!

2) When the party starts Astarion has a question mark over his head about how much he hates the party. And he says he wants to have some fun.
This time instead of telling you wants to bang me how about he asks me "Hey bud, The wine is crap but at least maybe I can find a good bang! What about you? Who do you have your eye on?"

This gives the player total control of who they want. Instead of other characters hitting on you, you tell Astarion "hey I had my eye on Shadowheart, she is hot".
Now whether Shadowheart overhears this coversation or Astarion is the best wingman ever... you take your pick.
Thats when she starts flirting with you and maybe invites you to the "after-party"

Of course this may be a little too quick for some so there is always option 3.

3) Player hits on the tieflings and just has a one night stand. The other Origin companions make commentary and maybe give some flirts of their own.

But besides all that... for the love of god overhaul the Tiefling party, an office party has more energy and fun that whatever it was I saw there at my camp.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: This is not romance! - 22/10/20 01:05 AM
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by sinogy
Bravo. You summed up perfectly. This game lacks a lot of cool DnD mechanics yet the developers seemed to be so eager to serve some kind of totally unnecessary mechanics they call romance! At least, they could have made it optional. As you said perfectly not every player should spend some of their play time trying to dodge the contrived romantic sub-plots.

I mean we are talking about a cRPG without day/night cycle, with free camera scouting which renders DnD scouting mechanics, with wherever and whenever you wish long rest which renders so many mechanics in terms of magic economy and party setups, etc. etc... Yet, what we are served is some so called romance dialog options with unlikeable characters.


Well, that's catering to mass market tastes for ya... is it really so unexpected, though? You played Larian games before, haven't you? wink


Yeah unfortunately that's that...

I played DOS2 until the last act then I quit. I mean it was an ok game but not a great game which almost everybody says so!

I was foolishly hoping BG3 was gonna be a true DnD cRPG. But, the design path Larian has taken for BG3 is too clear to ignore. It's gonna be DOS3.


Yup, seams like it... then again, look at the lack of widespread success other games in this current CRPG renaissance (Pillars1+2, Pathfinder) have achieved. Like it or not, actual, mechanically solid (and thus more complex) CRPG's are still niche in today's games market. DOS1+2 not so much... so they did something "right" there (ie. they simply replaced what made past CRPG's great, with "dumbed down" spectacle and wacky humor... but don't quote me on that. wink )


Number of game owners according to Steam spy:
-> POE 1 is between 1-2 mln
-> POE 2 is between 500-1mln
-> Pathfinder is between 500-1mln
-> DoS2 is between 2-5mln !!!
The situation is worse if you look at other statistics.
Unfortunately, old school games are not popular.
Only PoE 1 sold over 1 million copies because it was one of the first classic RPGs in this decade. POE 2 sold much worse.
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 22/10/20 01:15 AM
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Certain things need to be changed for sure.

1) Don't make everyone horny. The flirting between characters should be an on going thing throughout the gameplay and concluded then.
Yes Affinity and character's approval of you is important but it totally feels weird for Gale to be hitting on me randomly that night and being so crushed that I turn him down... its just cringe man.

Have Gale try to flirt with my character, I turn him down, He grumbles. This could be randomly generated event as I play the game. Like the time I stepped in front of the crossbow to protect Sazza. Have him say something that I could respond with a flirt. This should start the series of flirty dialogue lines that both Gale and player experience until the Tiefling party where finally Gale and my character decide to take it further.

That would feel much more organic.
And if it HAS to happen that night then here is option 2!

2) When the party starts Astarion has a question mark over his head about how much he hates the party. And he says he wants to have some fun.
This time instead of telling you wants to bang me how about he asks me "Hey bud, The wine is crap but at least maybe I can find a good bang! What about you? Who do you have your eye on?"

This gives the player total control of who they want. Instead of other characters hitting on you, you tell Astarion "hey I had my eye on Shadowheart, she is hot".
Now whether Shadowheart overhears this coversation or Astarion is the best wingman ever... you take your pick.
Thats when she starts flirting with you and maybe invites you to the "after-party"

Of course this may be a little too quick for some so there is always option 3.

3) Player hits on the tieflings and just has a one night stand. The other Origin companions make commentary and maybe give some flirts of their own.

But besides all that... for the love of god overhaul the Tiefling party, an office party has more energy and fun that whatever it was I saw there at my camp.




Yes, make sense. Plus, not everyone has to be accessible to PC. For example, Gale's crush on the goddess might be too strong for him to ignore so that he is completely close to any other intimate possibilities. Things like that could bring realism and depth to character backgrounds. Yet, here we have everyone so special but so accessible at the same time.

And speaking of "1) Don't make everyone horny."... We have Astarion. The dude is horny and giggly even when he talks about game map. What in the hell!!! Why not just put a drag-queen as the party's rogue while you are at it Larian.
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 22/10/20 01:26 AM
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by sinogy
Bravo. You summed up perfectly. This game lacks a lot of cool DnD mechanics yet the developers seemed to be so eager to serve some kind of totally unnecessary mechanics they call romance! At least, they could have made it optional. As you said perfectly not every player should spend some of their play time trying to dodge the contrived romantic sub-plots.

I mean we are talking about a cRPG without day/night cycle, with free camera scouting which renders DnD scouting mechanics, with wherever and whenever you wish long rest which renders so many mechanics in terms of magic economy and party setups, etc. etc... Yet, what we are served is some so called romance dialog options with unlikeable characters.


Well, that's catering to mass market tastes for ya... is it really so unexpected, though? You played Larian games before, haven't you? wink


Yeah unfortunately that's that...

I played DOS2 until the last act then I quit. I mean it was an ok game but not a great game which almost everybody says so!

I was foolishly hoping BG3 was gonna be a true DnD cRPG. But, the design path Larian has taken for BG3 is too clear to ignore. It's gonna be DOS3.


Yup, seams like it... then again, look at the lack of widespread success other games in this current CRPG renaissance (Pillars1+2, Pathfinder) have achieved. Like it or not, actual, mechanically solid (and thus more complex) CRPG's are still niche in today's games market. DOS1+2 not so much... so they did something "right" there (ie. they simply replaced what made past CRPG's great, with "dumbed down" spectacle and wacky humor... but don't quote me on that. wink )


Agreed. It is all about money. Everything else is a corporate lie.
Posted By: Eddiar Re: This is not romance! - 22/10/20 01:53 AM
I think maybe the best and the most easy solution is option 2.

Astarion is horny enough to ask "Hey I am thinking of getting laid tonight. How about you?"

Player then chooses a companion, and then we can have a funny scene where he runs off to your person of interest and you know... its been a looong day.
I can totally see everybody, including Shadowheart who is the hardest nut to crack to say to themselves "Welp, why the hell not? We might die tomorrow so I might as well go for it."

And in Act 2 we can deal with the hilarious will they wont they repercussions.
I much prefer that sort of uncertainty that can have funny or drama potential than Shadowheart referring to my PC as her beloved in every dialogue or worse completely ignoring what happened between us.
Posted By: lanceromancer Re: This is not romance! - 22/10/20 02:20 AM
Yes, I definitely got weird vibes from the writing on this. Felt like I was part of some weird, polyamorous, bisexual sex cult. Also doesn't help that the characters are rather snotty and unlikable.
Posted By: Azarielle Re: This is not romance! - 22/10/20 09:17 AM
I agree it's not romance - let's just hope we can add "yet" in.
But it also makes quite a lot of sense it isn't quite the let's get married scene yet and frankly I prefer it that way.

- I feel Astarion's party invitation is completely in character for him even if his opinion on character isn't the best, so I wouldn't change anything there. Also his relationship with the PC afterward makes sense.

- I've never actually gotten the Wyll scene - must be bugged or something, but in order for anything to happen the PC need to be the one to ask - so what's the problem? After seeing the cutscene on Youtube I have to state though that there's hardly anything more off-putting than a horned lady spying on you through eye prosthesis while you're getting busy.

- Gale will only act on it if you've been asking for it through the elusive and hard to get Weave scene. while I consider his "romance" development by far the best of all available options, the morning after talk though? IRL he'd be flying of my bed, clothes following through the window!

- Shadowheart is really sweet and conflicted about herself in general and her next day reaction actually makes sense in this context.

- Lae'Zel is uh just being herself I guess whatever that's supposed to be

In conclusion Astarion is the only one that doesn't leave the PC bruised the day after (emotionally or physically) which really wouldn't be my first guess...

It really sucks to be left with these cliffhangers though for an unforseeable future. Let me just stare this loud and clear before anyone at Larian gets any ideas I absolutely loathe tragic endings- really I'm capable of uninstalling an never look your way again was this to take place 🤫🤭
Posted By: Cowoline Re: This is not romance! - 22/10/20 09:33 AM
Originally Posted by Eddiar
I think maybe the best and the most easy solution is option 2.

Astarion is horny enough to ask "Hey I am thinking of getting laid tonight. How about you?"

Player then chooses a companion, and then we can have a funny scene where he runs off to your person of interest and you know... its been a looong day.
I can totally see everybody, including Shadowheart who is the hardest nut to crack to say to themselves "Welp, why the hell not? We might die tomorrow so I might as well go for it."

And in Act 2 we can deal with the hilarious will they wont they repercussions.
I much prefer that sort of uncertainty that can have funny or drama potential than Shadowheart referring to my PC as her beloved in every dialogue or worse completely ignoring what happened between us.



This reminds me soooo much of DA2, where everyone's complaint want "Anders is hitting on me!!!". Isabella did the exact same thing and noone battered an eye. You have the option to turn him down. It's not like you're being forced into anything.
Posted By: Aurgelmir Re: This is not romance! - 22/10/20 09:34 AM
Wait you guys get "romacnce" in this game? All I get is Shadowhears disapproval! (Good realism simulator)

Jokes aside. I haven't actually been able to unlock a whole lot of romance sequences. In my evil Run Shadowheart seemed into me, but "She knows better to share a bunk with someone when she's drunk" which I honestly thought was an amazing way to get "rejected, but not rejected"

Minthara was ready to pork, but that's obviously not "love". And Astarion too. Although his scene wasn't done yet, so it's hard to say how it really played out, but it seemed very much a path to something more. It was the "first night of passion that leads to something more"

In my multiplayer play through it seemed some of the characters were willing, but we let them down.


To me it all comes down to the camp dialogue feeling both bugged and half done. Gale ends up with no options after a while, which is okay, but Shadowheart keeps all of hers, so you have the same conversation over and over.

It's not the romance that feels wrong, but I don't feel a sense of growing closer to the characters. Shadowheart responds differently when you decipher her god, which is cool, but she's still the snarky *itch towards you even when she considers you a friend.
I'd love to see this be improved during EA.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 22/10/20 09:42 AM
Agreed.

I'm happy with Shadowheart (aka the Black Widow) to be snarky, to be treated as a disposable sex toy by Astarion and to be looked at as some sort of pond scum by Lae'zel. That's what they are like and it shows that they have their own minds and characters (that, in the RP side, have existed long before I came along).

What I hope is that the Romance paths (not the horizontal jogging, that's not romance) see a more significant change in this behaviour. We see some evidence for that in this first Act, but my hope is that, by the end, you will be viewed by your chosen Companion as an actual friend. That would be a worthy Romance path to my mind.
Posted By: Redwyrm Re: This is not romance! - 22/10/20 09:45 AM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Correct, it is not Romance.

The developers could hardly market it as 'One-night stand screwing' though.

Good thing Larian making RPG, and not dating sim...
Posted By: Blade238 Re: This is not romance! - 22/10/20 09:52 AM
Originally Posted by lanceromancer
Yes, I definitely got weird vibes from the writing on this. Felt like I was part of some weird, polyamorous, bisexual sex cult. Also doesn't help that the characters are rather snotty and unlikable.

If there's no South Park style blood orgies, then Larian are prudes.

Seriously though, the whole handling was weird. I'm hoping it's because they were just trying to throw it in for EA, but final release will have a lot more buildup and won't have the sex cult vibe.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: This is not romance! - 22/10/20 09:58 AM
Originally Posted by Blade238
Originally Posted by lanceromancer
Yes, I definitely got weird vibes from the writing on this. Felt like I was part of some weird, polyamorous, bisexual sex cult. Also doesn't help that the characters are rather snotty and unlikable.

If there's no South Park style blood orgies, then Larian are prudes.

Seriously though, the whole handling was weird. I'm hoping it's because they were just trying to throw it in for EA, but final release will have a lot more buildup and won't have the sex cult vibe.


It's probably the whole "showcasing the evil options" stuff... than again, what does that tell us about Larian, if they consider this "evil"? xD

...also, we already go to the Underdark, so if it's blood orgies you want, just throw in a Lloth temple!
Posted By: Aurgelmir Re: This is not romance! - 22/10/20 10:01 AM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Agreed.

I'm happy with Shadowheart (aka the Black Widow) to be snarky, to be treated as a disposable sex toy by Astarion and to be looked at as some sort of pond scum by Lae'zel. That's what they are like and it shows that they have their own minds and characters (that, in the RP side, have existed long before I came along).

What I hope is that the Romance paths (not the horizontal jogging, that's not romance) see a more significant change in this behaviour. We see some evidence for that in this first Act, but my hope is that, by the end, you will be viewed by your chosen Companion as an actual friend. That would be a worthy Romance path to my mind.


With Shadowheart I do get a sense of that brewing, especially when you accept her religion, she does warm up a bit. But I wish we could see it reflected in other dialogue too.
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 22/10/20 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by lanceromancer
Yes, I definitely got weird vibes from the writing on this. Felt like I was part of some weird, polyamorous, bisexual sex cult. Also doesn't help that the characters are rather snotty and unlikable.


Exactly this.
Posted By: Baraz Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 05:47 AM
+1 to OP. Just blatant fact.

I took issue with two major quirks :

a) They all try to hook-up for sex no matter the lack of any attempt to figure the main character's sexual orientation or interest. See suggestions below.
Their sudden suggestions for sex appears out of the blue (no preceding dialogue hints leading to it).
Laezel was notably whacky : nothing remotely hinted towards an interest beforehand.

b) When you hook-up with one companion, the others all react like something was hurt and they are not subtle at all. It does not make sense.

And, like OP said here, they almost all seem to just want a fling rather than something more. Shadowheart is more subtle in the current version (though my lady Drow went for Astarion).

SUGGESTIONS :
- prior dialogue lines that "subtly" let's the player state his/her sexual orientation (men/women/bi)
- prior teasing or flirting should determine if a companion will express any form of jealousy or frustration during the party. Without it, the companion remains neutral on that level.

EDIT :
- The UI states my companions are Neutral in Approval (gee, imagine *if* they liked my character, oof!).
- I am clearly not against romance nor sex : no judgement here.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 05:52 AM
Originally Posted by Baraz
+1 to OP. Just blatant fact.

I took issue with two major quirks :

a) They all try to hook-up for sex no matter the lack of any attempt to figure the main character's sexual orientation or interest. See suggestions below.
Their sudden suggestions for sex appears out of the blue (no preceding dialogue hints leading to it).
Laezel was notably whacky : nothing remotely hinted towards an interest beforehand.

b) When you hook-up with one companion, the others all react like something was hurt and they are not subtle at all. It does not make sense.

And, like OP said here, they almost all seem to just want a fling rather than something more. Shadowheart is more subtle in the current version (though my lady Drow went for Astarion).

SUGGESTION :
- prior dialogue lines that "subtly" let's the player state his/her sexual orientation (men/women/bi)
- prior teasing or flirting should determine if a companion will express any form of jealousy or frustration during the party. Without it, the companion remains neutral on that level.


[Linked Image]
Posted By: JDCrenton Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 05:53 AM
It's as cringey as it has always been. And the people that put too much thought into this should reevaluate their life priorities.
Posted By: pinklily Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 06:30 AM
Some super judgy people in this thread. What's wrong with some fantasy fulfillment. Isn't that the point to video games... especially... fantasy ones...? I have a super happy marriage and almost exclusively play games that feature romance options. It's just what I like. Some people love guns and shooting and fps games are great for them. I don't but different strokes for different folks.

That said, I think the romances as of Act one could use some improvements but I don't think they're inherently bad or unrealistic. Some are easy, some are not. I think it would be more immersive if, during the party, only characters you've already expressed interest in should ask you for quality time. Having a few flirtatious options in earlier conversations should establish this. This way, people who don't want to participate in the romance element can ignore it altogether or people who only want to flirt with a specific gender can control their experience. Plus, having flirt options beforehand would make things feel more immersive. I also 100% think there should be a follow-up conversation to the camp scene. It's kind of strange that there isn't anything of the sort currently.

I don't have any problems with the pc's facial expressions. I think my tiefling is pretty cute but I don't know how those facial expressions translate to the male characters.
Posted By: Azarielle Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 06:33 AM
There we go again - and up till now we were missing these kind of "get a life" replies that so often tend to overflow the topic of romance in games.

Because writing expertises on DnD rules clearly shows your superior life priorities right?
And TYVM my life priorities are quite sorted I only have a bit too much time on my hands having just undergone major surgery being stuck in my bed for a few more weeks.

A story based RPG focusing on companion interaction is actually quite unrealistic without even a hint of romance if you ask me, because well if my time in national sports team taught me anything - if a certain number of mixed gender people go somewhere for more than N days, somebody's gonna bang.
Posted By: Eddiar Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 06:36 AM
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
It's as cringey as it has always been. And the people that put too much thought into this should reevaluate their life priorities.


I think you are doing a bit of a projection buddy, most people seem to just have a problem with it on a narrative level. Like any nerd debates on a show or book.
But anyway since you are so edgy and cool and let me communicate it to you through a meme.

[Linked Image]


Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 06:42 AM
As I already said, I don't have a problem with romances in story driven games in general, I do have a problem with how badly and tropy they are presented these days, however... especially when it comes to games with custom protagonists, because they also have to be written in a one-size-fits-all way in those. Couple that with the delicate timing of non linear storytelling, end the end product is usually bad... very bad... like penny romance novel bad.
Posted By: Eddiar Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 07:02 AM
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
As I already said, I don't have a problem with romances in story driven games in general, I do have a problem with how badly and tropy they are presented these days, however... especially when it comes to games with custom protagonists, because they also have to be written in a one-size-fits-all way in those. Couple that with the delicate timing of non linear storytelling, end the end product is usually bad... very bad... like penny romance novel bad.


Its actually quite cringey.

It adheres to the juvenile fantasies of "If I am strong everyone would like me sexually", At least this time Larian did not only apply to this to just the female NPCs but males as well. Equality I guess but still pretty bad.
I would argue though that this is just EA shenanigans but... they had voice actors do these lines. So I hope to lords above its not in the final version.
Posted By: pinklily Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 07:03 AM
Originally Posted by Azarielle
There we go again - and up till now we were missing these kind of "get a life" replies that so often tend to overflow the topic of romance in games.

Because writing expertises on DnD rules clearly shows your superior life priorities right?
And TYVM my life priorities are quite sorted I only have a bit too much time on my hands having just undergone major surgery being stuck in my bed for a few more weeks.

A story based RPG focusing on companion interaction is actually quite unrealistic without even a hint of romance if you ask me, because well if my time in national sports team taught me anything - if a certain number of mixed gender people go somewhere for more than N days, somebody's gonna bang.



Agreed, but you don't need an excuse--whether you have loads of time or very little time. Your time is yours and you should invest it however you like. Lots of people like these elements in games--otherwise they wouldn't have become a staple of modern rpgs.

Originally Posted by WarBaby2
As I already said, I don't have a problem with romances in story driven games in general, I do have a problem with how badly and tropy they are presented these days, however... especially when it comes to games with custom protagonists, because they also have to be written in a one-size-fits-all way in those. Couple that with the delicate timing of non linear storytelling, end the end product is usually bad... very bad... like penny romance novel bad.


If anything I've observed the opposite--games are presenting more interesting and dynamic romances. Have you read a trashy romance novel? Because none of these come close to those. Even with how clumsy the romances are handled currently (and it's really only because of the suddenness of the camp scene), they aren't anything like what you get in a bodice ripper. I think the romances in this game will get better/more interesting and we haven't seen enough with them to really pass the kind of judgement you've already passed.

I'm curious what romances you're referencing, specifically though, that are so badly written and trope heavy.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 07:05 AM
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
As I already said, I don't have a problem with romances in story driven games in general, I do have a problem with how badly and tropy they are presented these days, however... especially when it comes to games with custom protagonists, because they also have to be written in a one-size-fits-all way in those. Couple that with the delicate timing of non linear storytelling, end the end product is usually bad... very bad... like penny romance novel bad.


Its actually quite cringey.

It adheres to the juvenile fantasies of "If I am strong everyone would like me sexually", At least this time Larian did not only apply to this to just the female NPCs but males as well. Equality I guess but still pretty bad.
I would argue though that this is just EA shenanigans but... they had voice actors do these lines. So I hope to lords above its not in the final version.


Oh, I'm pretty sure it is... maybe not like that/at this point in the story, but still. Moreover, they even did a "behind the scenes" about their voice acting and motion capture that featured some romance stuff, so they seam to be mighty proud of it too.

@pinklily: Hm, the Nameless One, Annah and Deionarra in Planecape Torment come to mind... Geralt, Yennefer and Triss (Witcher 1-3), obviously... Tidus and Yuna in FFX, but that one had it's cringe parts too, I guess... there aren't too many actually good ones, to be honest. I especially came to dislike the "BioWare" style of "romance" around Dragon Age 2... and BG3 seams tto fit that same level of "tone deaf free for all" right now.
Posted By: Eddiar Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 07:10 AM
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
As I already said, I don't have a problem with romances in story driven games in general, I do have a problem with how badly and tropy they are presented these days, however... especially when it comes to games with custom protagonists, because they also have to be written in a one-size-fits-all way in those. Couple that with the delicate timing of non linear storytelling, end the end product is usually bad... very bad... like penny romance novel bad.


Its actually quite cringey.

It adheres to the juvenile fantasies of "If I am strong everyone would like me sexually", At least this time Larian did not only apply to this to just the female NPCs but males as well. Equality I guess but still pretty bad.
I would argue though that this is just EA shenanigans but... they had voice actors do these lines. So I hope to lords above its not in the final version.


Oh, I'm pretty sure it is... maybe not like that/at this point in the story, but still. Moreover, they even did a "behind the scenes" about their voice acting and motion capture that featured some romance stuff, so they seam to be mighty proud of it too.


Well in this day and age. You absolutely need mocap to tell any sort of story for an RPG and Story driven games. Otherwise you end up with games like Assassins Creed where the facial expressions and talk animations are constantly recycled and any emotional scene is laughably bad.

The problem so far though it seems things move WAY too quick and there is not enough interaction beforehand.
Posted By: JDCrenton Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 07:13 AM
I find none of the current NPC's personalities believable or appealing. The one that at least tries to play in char all the time is the Vampire and maybe the Gith and that's not saying much. I only carry them because i try to do good class synergy in a game that doesn't really care about it despite being marketed as D&D lol. Gale trying to play Mr. Goody Two Shoes, CMON. I roll my eyes every time i see his background info.

I think most of you are just desperate/lonely and love bad or cheesy writing.

No one that has ever read a good novel would find this good.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 07:16 AM
Originally Posted by Baraz
+1 to OP. Just blatant fact.

I took issue with two major quirks :

a) They all try to hook-up for sex no matter the lack of any attempt to figure the main character's sexual orientation or interest. See suggestions below.
Their sudden suggestions for sex appears out of the blue (no preceding dialogue hints leading to it).
Laezel was notably whacky : nothing remotely hinted towards an interest beforehand.

b) When you hook-up with one companion, the others all react like something was hurt and they are not subtle at all. It does not make sense.

And, like OP said here, they almost all seem to just want a fling rather than something more. Shadowheart is more subtle in the current version (though my lady Drow went for Astarion).

SUGGESTION :
- prior dialogue lines that "subtly" let's the player state his/her sexual orientation (men/women/bi)
- prior teasing or flirting should determine if a companion will express any form of jealousy or frustration during the party. Without it, the companion remains neutral on that level.

I'm not inclined to run around saying "Hey, are you straight? Wanna hook up?". Of course, for my generation, asking a woman out on a date wasn't considered assault. I have actually asked a lesbian out on a date, and she politely told me that wasn't into men, but thanks anyway. Ironically, even asking "hey, are you into x" today can find you on the receiving end of a criminal complaint, because reasons? You see, once upon a time, if someone took an interest in someone else, they didn't have to have their lawyer talk to their lawyer to obtain a 57 page permission slip to ask them out. So when I see things like this in camp, it's just another day at the beach, instead of "Help, call the police, I've been assaulted".
Posted By: ControllerLyfe Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 07:19 AM
Hey I was referred to try and post this here smile I will catch up with the rest of this thread :P

My 1st post here! hello!

I'm new to BG just fyi lol and this is based on my 1st playthrough.

I'm loving the companions! They each have their complex background and motives.

I loved the party banter in DAI, and I love that this is in BG3, makes traveling with your party feel more real, having them add something when chatting to an NPC is always interesting as well. So please keep on working/adding to this as much as you are able to smile

Romance: I'm a good dude trying to help out whoever I can, and Gale loves this about me, and I love that we are going to get along and be best buds! I love that! but I was hoping Shadowheart would be like that too because she's bomb lol. Anyway I'm not entirely happy with the romance because she is very closed, and I do enjoy the chase and trying to "woo" and have her see the light, but I had a much easier time playing an evil character because she was more impressed! lol

Since I found it difficult to get to know her, I found it odd that she would sleep with me at the celebration party, even though I get its meant to be a drunk fling. However during the whole journey there is no mention of it, during NPC convos she doesn't defend or show any affection. I'm just saying its kinda lacking, and please forgive me if you find it annoying, but I love Dragon Age's way of doing these things. I don't want to make this long, but how about for once, maybe one character, its love at 1st sight? and you get married or move in together and grow on the journey together? lol

Just my initial thoughts for some options, I am really enjoying the game, and I know there is more to explore with the relationships as we go after EA. So if you read this thank you!
Posted By: ControllerLyfe Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 07:20 AM
Wow! I thought I was the only one!
Posted By: Riandor Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 07:23 AM
The Tiefling party is clearly very unfinished graphically and soundwise (lack of background merriment, singing, etc...).

Im therefore hopeful the conversations are too.

I mean I let Astarion feed on me and he is a vampire, so sure, I get him thinking I might be fun. But Wyll and Gale come across as a little weird and jealous if I choose someone else with zero prior conversation. Yeah in both cases they revealed their history to me, but there was no flirtation or sounding out potential attraction or preferences.

Now even that could be circumvented with a little story telling. Maybe the virile connection is there due to the tadpoles? Have someone talk to us near the beginning of the party (like an overt Astarion if he still likes you for example), and yeah flirt if that’s their thing but instead of just acting all rejected, be a friend, ask who I might fancy?

I think someone suggested wingman as an idea further back in the thread, and this concept could be used for the game to get a feel for how I like relationships.

Do I just want to sleep around and leave my options open? Am I focused on 1 party member, or am I a take it slow kinda person? Maybe I just want everyone to leave me be because I actually had someone before being abducted (or didn’t and it’s just an excuse to be left alone).

Either way I have to admit the current everyone acting like a scorned teenager just because I told character x I would see them later is odd. Does no one simply want to pat me on the back and have a drink? It’s a party!! Besides how do they even know? (Why does everyone care?!)

I’m obviously happy to put most of the above to EA, but should Larian be reading, then whilst I love options, this particular scene definitely needs some more subtlety and variation and fun!

Heck, it might be fun if I choose Shadowheart for example if someone wants to fight me for her (if not a character how about a tiefling lol)
Posted By: ControllerLyfe Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 07:24 AM
I have no real problems with the one night stand, my problem is that yes agreed after that night it feels like it never happened. My romance never brings it up, there's no mention of it. In a realistic relationship you are thinking about each other every damn minute lol
Posted By: ControllerLyfe Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 07:28 AM
Agreed, its just to bring it up, we want the best of this game! smile
Posted By: robertthebard Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 07:32 AM
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
As I already said, I don't have a problem with romances in story driven games in general, I do have a problem with how badly and tropy they are presented these days, however... especially when it comes to games with custom protagonists, because they also have to be written in a one-size-fits-all way in those. Couple that with the delicate timing of non linear storytelling, end the end product is usually bad... very bad... like penny romance novel bad.

Uh oh, people are gonna talk, but I don't disagree here. However, per our dialog elsewhere, I'm not convinced I can lay this solely at Larian's feet. Yeah, they did similar in DOS 2, but, they're gamers, making games, and I'd be willing to bet, they read gaming forums too.

Flashback to Dragon Age Origins, and the BSN's reaction to not being able to bang Alistair with a gay protagonist. There was, surprisingly, less uproar about Morrigan with lesbians, but there was some. Fast Forward to DA 2, with "player sexual" companions, and once again, the forums burnt down, because all the options that were on the table were on the table, no matter who Hawke was. See the pattern? Care to guess how it went in Inquisition, where they reverted to Origins for the LIs? If you guessed grab a fire extinguisher and some popcorn, you'd be absolutely correct. Guess what happened in ME Andromeda, some of the characters suddenly officially became bi, and mods took care of the rest. At any rate, this is a no win scenario. Obsidian caught flak for no romance in Outer Worlds, and BioWare caught tons of flak for not being inclusive enough, and too inclusive. It's a classic Catch 22, damned if you, damned if you don't situation, so they chose to err on the side of "inclusivity", and even the people that might be running around with signs during the day screaming "we need inclusivity" aren't happy, because someone didn't submit a resume before having the audacity to flirt, or be hurt because the PC chose someone else, or did something that they don't approve of.
Posted By: ControllerLyfe Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 07:33 AM
Originally Posted by sinogy
[quote=Mister Monster]Keep in mind that this is only the first act: these are the opening motions of will -become- a romance later on in the game!

Do you really think it is not immersion breaker than go on have fun playing this game. I am happy for you.


Agreed, its best to bring this up now, Larian said they listen, because if they don't get this right, its just going to feel like DOS again.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 07:42 AM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
As I already said, I don't have a problem with romances in story driven games in general, I do have a problem with how badly and tropy they are presented these days, however... especially when it comes to games with custom protagonists, because they also have to be written in a one-size-fits-all way in those. Couple that with the delicate timing of non linear storytelling, end the end product is usually bad... very bad... like penny romance novel bad.

Uh oh, people are gonna talk, but I don't disagree here. However, per our dialog elsewhere, I'm not convinced I can lay this solely at Larian's feet. Yeah, they did similar in DOS 2, but, they're gamers, making games, and I'd be willing to bet, they read gaming forums too.

Flashback to Dragon Age Origins, and the BSN's reaction to not being able to bang Alistair with a gay protagonist. There was, surprisingly, less uproar about Morrigan with lesbians, but there was some. Fast Forward to DA 2, with "player sexual" companions, and once again, the forums burnt down, because all the options that were on the table were on the table, no matter who Hawke was. See the pattern? Care to guess how it went in Inquisition, where they reverted to Origins for the LIs? If you guessed grab a fire extinguisher and some popcorn, you'd be absolutely correct. Guess what happened in ME Andromeda, some of the characters suddenly officially became bi, and mods took care of the rest. At any rate, this is a no win scenario. Obsidian caught flak for no romance in Outer Worlds, and BioWare caught tons of flak for not being inclusive enough, and too inclusive. It's a classic Catch 22, damned if you, damned if you don't situation, so they chose to err on the side of "inclusivity", and even the people that might be running around with signs during the day screaming "we need inclusivity" aren't happy, because someone didn't submit a resume before having the audacity to flirt, or be hurt because the PC chose someone else, or did something that they don't approve of.


Yea, well, it would be a cach 22 if not adhering to "the mob" would actually hurt gaming companies, which it generally doesn't if they stick to their guns (aka artisic integrity) from the start, and ignore what (certain) games media and (certain) vocal minorities say, and neither does it actually benefit them when they do... but that's something - especially US - games companies have yet to learn.

Until then, I guess we'll have to life with "the cringe"... wink
Posted By: DZs7 Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 08:23 AM
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
As I already said, I don't have a problem with romances in story driven games in general, I do have a problem with how badly and tropy they are presented these days, however... especially when it comes to games with custom protagonists, because they also have to be written in a one-size-fits-all way in those. Couple that with the delicate timing of non linear storytelling, end the end product is usually bad... very bad... like penny romance novel bad.

Uh oh, people are gonna talk, but I don't disagree here. However, per our dialog elsewhere, I'm not convinced I can lay this solely at Larian's feet. Yeah, they did similar in DOS 2, but, they're gamers, making games, and I'd be willing to bet, they read gaming forums too.

Flashback to Dragon Age Origins, and the BSN's reaction to not being able to bang Alistair with a gay protagonist. There was, surprisingly, less uproar about Morrigan with lesbians, but there was some. Fast Forward to DA 2, with "player sexual" companions, and once again, the forums burnt down, because all the options that were on the table were on the table, no matter who Hawke was. See the pattern? Care to guess how it went in Inquisition, where they reverted to Origins for the LIs? If you guessed grab a fire extinguisher and some popcorn, you'd be absolutely correct. Guess what happened in ME Andromeda, some of the characters suddenly officially became bi, and mods took care of the rest. At any rate, this is a no win scenario. Obsidian caught flak for no romance in Outer Worlds, and BioWare caught tons of flak for not being inclusive enough, and too inclusive. It's a classic Catch 22, damned if you, damned if you don't situation, so they chose to err on the side of "inclusivity", and even the people that might be running around with signs during the day screaming "we need inclusivity" aren't happy, because someone didn't submit a resume before having the audacity to flirt, or be hurt because the PC chose someone else, or did something that they don't approve of.


Yea, well, it would be a cach 22 if not adhering to "the mob" would actually hurt gaming companies, which it generally doesn't if they stick to their guns (aka artisic integrity) from the start, and ignore what (certain) games media and (certain) vocal minorities say, and neither does it actually benefit them when they do... but that's something - especially US - games companies have yet to learn.

Until then, I guess we'll have to life with "the cringe"... wink


I find it funny (at least for now as it may end up with creative dumpster) personally as those most vocal groups not only most times are more despotic than anyone else, they contradict themselves and the best part the don't care about stuff like games and comics at all. Which some project and companies learnt hard way when they went with following this non sense.

I mean, I can get over that everyone likes and sleeps with everyone in game/story. But calling it anything other than the mob pleasing treatment is just non sense. It hurts writing, overall story and just limits characters. Best supporting examples for this would be games from Japan or like Eastern EU where they just don't bother about things like it at all.

Also imagine game in 2020 with white male character that hates or even is just afraid all women in general. Even with perfectly justified backstory like his mother beating and tormenting since childhood or just him having Gynophobia.
Posted By: Argonaut Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 09:11 AM
Originally Posted by pinklily
Some super judgy people in this thread. What's wrong with some fantasy fulfillment. Isn't that the point to video games... especially... fantasy ones...? I have a super happy marriage and almost exclusively play games that feature romance options. It's just what I like. Some people love guns and shooting and fps games are great for them. I don't but different strokes for different folks.

I can't speak for others but for me I just use it as more evidence of poor characterization and poor writing. I argued someone to standstill over their theory and was waiting for their response to get them in a catch 22 where I would bring up characterization and quote a few authors regarding the issue but sadly he didn't take the bait. I am vehemently against the necessity for romance options and the inclusion of sex scenes is top tier cringe.

Originally Posted by pinklily
That said, I think the romances as of Act one could use some improvements but I don't think they're inherently bad or unrealistic. Some are easy, some are not. I think it would be more immersive if, during the party, only characters you've already expressed interest in should ask you for quality time. Having a few flirtatious options in earlier conversations should establish this. This way, people who don't want to participate in the romance element can ignore it altogether or people who only want to flirt with a specific gender can control their experience. Plus, having flirt options beforehand would make things feel more immersive. I also 100% think there should be a follow-up conversation to the camp scene. It's kind of strange that there isn't anything of the sort currently.

They are unrealistic and poorly written on the basis of them being homogenous. The only exemption to this is Shadowheart who is poorly written for other reasons. What you described in your post is the need for characterization which is almost completely absent from the characters outside of their one dimensional trope.

Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 09:13 AM
Originally Posted by DZs7
I find it funny (at least for now as it may end up with creative dumpster) personally as those most vocal groups not only most times are more despotic than anyone else, they contradict themselves and the best part the don't care about stuff like games and comics at all. Which some project and companies learnt hard way when they went with following this non sense.

I mean, I can get over that everyone likes and sleeps with everyone in game/story. But calling it anything other than the mob pleasing treatment is just non sense. It hurts writing, overall story and just limits characters. Best supporting examples for this would be games from Japan or like Eastern EU where they just don't bother about things like it at all.

Also imagine game in 2020 with white male character that hates or even is just afraid all women in general. Even with perfectly justified backstory like his mother beating and tormenting since childhood or just him having Gynophobia.


Yea, well, as I said - (western) companies will learn sooner or later. Wishfulfillment for infantile ego-manics is only fun/profitable for so long... and sooner or later, general audiences will be sick of it.
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 09:46 AM
Not just romances...cinematic dialogues in general are shallow with very few options. Romances feels totally unnatural, so it sticks out even more than the mediocre rest.
DOS2 BG2 handled way better, but you need to READ. And here lies to problem nowadays. Everyone has the attention span of a turnip unless you have cinematics.
Cinematics should complement your game (to a minimum for a better written story in my opinion...), not overtake it. Movies do a better job at that.

Check out the power of word. Now THATS choice :
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Argonaut Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 09:48 AM
Shhh evidence, facts and reality are not welcome here.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
I think most of you are just desperate/lonely and love bad or cheesy writing.

No one that has ever read a good novel would find this good.

You might want to wind in the personal judgements here. For one thing you are wrong, and for another, you are being offensive.

Outside the world of D&D and similar games there is a huge increase in popularity of relationship and storytelling RPGs. The popularity of such games strongly suggests that people enjoy playing out social interactions and potential romances in their RPGs. CRPGs which have included 'romance' and relationship options for their PCs have won acclaim, and the relationship mechanics have been singled out by many people as being both fun and a major part of their enjoyment.

Your experience might vary from other people's but there is no need to go on the attack.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 10:44 AM
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Not just romances...cinematic dialogues in general are shallow with very few options. Romances feels totally unnatural, so it sticks out even more than the mediocre rest.
DOS2 BG2 handled way better, but you need to READ. And here lies to problem nowadays. Everyone has the attention span of a turnip unless you have cinematics.
Cinematics should complement your game (to a minimum for a better written story in my opinion...), not overtake it. Movies do a better job at that.

Check out the power of word. Now THATS choice :
[Linked Image]


Hah, yea, well... I've given up on trying to convey the merits of actual RPG's to the current generation of gamers some time ago. It's all about the spectacle and illusion choice with the "youngens". laugh

Seriously, though, it is possible to transport a "deep", complex, and varied story with "modern" means... they just have to be used effectively.
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 10:49 AM
Originally Posted by Baraz
+1 to OP. Just blatant fact.

I took issue with two major quirks :

a) They all try to hook-up for sex no matter the lack of any attempt to figure the main character's sexual orientation or interest. See suggestions below.
Their sudden suggestions for sex appears out of the blue (no preceding dialogue hints leading to it).
Laezel was notably whacky : nothing remotely hinted towards an interest beforehand.

b) When you hook-up with one companion, the others all react like something was hurt and they are not subtle at all. It does not make sense.

And, like OP said here, they almost all seem to just want a fling rather than something more. Shadowheart is more subtle in the current version (though my lady Drow went for Astarion).

SUGGESTION :
- prior dialogue lines that "subtly" let's the player state his/her sexual orientation (men/women/bi)
- prior teasing or flirting should determine if a companion will express any form of jealousy or frustration during the party. Without it, the companion remains neutral on that level.


I just want romance in the game to be optional. I don't wanna play a dating (or banging this case) simulator in my RPG. And I am sure there are a lot of people thinking like me.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 10:56 AM
Originally Posted by sinogy
I just want romance in the game to be optional. I don't wanna play a dating (or banging this case) simulator in my RPG. And I am sure there are a lot of people thinking like me.


...and there is the problem: Voice work and motion capture are expensive, so making it totally optional is a potential waste of budget. So, either it's voven into the story somewhat realistically - and thus non-optional - or it's sudden and convoluted...
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:00 AM
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by sinogy
I just want romance in the game to be optional. I don't wanna play a dating (or banging this case) simulator in my RPG. And I am sure there are a lot of people thinking like me.


...and there is the problem: Voice work and motion capture are expensive, so making it totally optional is a potential waste of budget. So, either it's voven into the story somewhat realistically - and thus non-optional - or it's sudden and convoluted...



F that. If you price the game as AAA and want full price for EA then you have to work harder.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:01 AM
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Not just romances...cinematic dialogues in general are shallow with very few options. Romances feels totally unnatural, so it sticks out even more than the mediocre rest.
DOS2 BG2 handled way better, but you need to READ. And here lies to problem nowadays. Everyone has the attention span of a turnip unless you have cinematics.
Cinematics should complement your game (to a minimum for a better written story in my opinion...), not overtake it. Movies do a better job at that.

Check out the power of word. Now THATS choice :
[Linked Image]


Hah, yea, well... I've given up on trying to convey the merits of actual RPG's to the current generation of gamers some time ago. It's all about the spectacle and illusion choice with the "youngens". laugh

Seriously, though, it is possible to transport a "deep", complex, and varied story with "modern" means... they just have to be used effectively.

Ah, to be a "youngen" again. I'm afraid that ship sailed for me before some of the people in these forums were born. The sad thing is, looking at all those choices, you only got about 3 outcomes. Sorry, were we discussing the "illusion of choice"? I've enjoyed my fair share, and probably a few other people's fair share too, of novels in my day. I've even picked up a pen to write a few pages here and there. But I'll take my illusion of choice in the streamlined version, tyvm. It's not like there were no "but that wasn't supposed to happen" moments when I had 11 choices of non-voiced dialog, after all.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by sinogy
I just want romance in the game to be optional. I don't wanna play a dating (or banging this case) simulator in my RPG. And I am sure there are a lot of people thinking like me.


...and there is the problem: Voice work and motion capture are expensive, so making it totally optional is a potential waste of budget. So, either it's voven into the story somewhat realistically - and thus non-optional - or it's sudden and convoluted...



F that. If you price the game as AAA and want full price for EA then you have to work harder.

That's great, except that they told you if you're looking for a polished and complete experience, to hold off on buying into EA, because it's not going to be that. What's hilarious to me are the people that don't understand what that means trying to explain writing.
Posted By: Argonaut Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Not just romances...cinematic dialogues in general are shallow with very few options. Romances feels totally unnatural, so it sticks out even more than the mediocre rest.
DOS2 BG2 handled way better, but you need to READ. And here lies to problem nowadays. Everyone has the attention span of a turnip unless you have cinematics.
Cinematics should complement your game (to a minimum for a better written story in my opinion...), not overtake it. Movies do a better job at that.

Check out the power of word. Now THATS choice :
[Linked Image]


Hah, yea, well... I've given up on trying to convey the merits of actual RPG's to the current generation of gamers some time ago. It's all about the spectacle and illusion choice with the "youngens". laugh

Seriously, though, it is possible to transport a "deep", complex, and varied story with "modern" means... they just have to be used effectively.

Ah, to be a "youngen" again. I'm afraid that ship sailed for me before some of the people in these forums were born. The sad thing is, looking at all those choices, you only got about 3 outcomes. Sorry, were we discussing the "illusion of choice"? I've enjoyed my fair share, and probably a few other people's fair share too, of novels in my day. I've even picked up a pen to write a few pages here and there. But I'll take my illusion of choice in the streamlined version, tyvm. It's not like there were no "but that wasn't supposed to happen" moments when I had 11 choices of non-voiced dialog, after all.

3 outcomes, 11 different characterizations.

And you write?
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:06 AM
Originally Posted by sinogy
I just want romance in the game to be optional. I don't wanna play a dating (or banging this case) simulator in my RPG. And I am sure there are a lot of people thinking like me.

The fact that romance and companion relationship was a large part of the game has not been kept secret during development or release. It was all over the Larian websites and all over the previews. If you object to playing games that contain such content, why on earth did you buy the game?
Posted By: Argonaut Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:07 AM
Don't forget the sex scenes.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by sinogy
F that. If you price the game as AAA and want full price for EA then you have to work harder.


One might think so... but we are talking about an industry that increasingly hires their "talent" based on factors other then merit, here. wink
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:11 AM
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by sinogy
F that. If you price the game as AAA and want full price for EA then you have to work harder.


One might think so... but we are talking about an industry that increasingly hires their "talent" based on factors other then merit, here. wink


yeah and that is cancer, not only for gaming industry but also for many more others...
Posted By: Argonaut Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:14 AM
We know, tell Larian.
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:16 AM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by sinogy
I just want romance in the game to be optional. I don't wanna play a dating (or banging this case) simulator in my RPG. And I am sure there are a lot of people thinking like me.

The fact that romance and companion relationship was a large part of the game has not been kept secret during development or release. It was all over the Larian websites and all over the previews. If you object to playing games that contain such content, why on earth did you buy the game?



How is it a large part of the game ffs? Speak based on your experince not based on corporate marketing talk.

You just hook up once Which is completely avoidable btw ( that means you can complete the game without having any intimate relationship with any one even if the system is there) and that was the whole so called romance thing throughout the whole Act.

Start thinking before posting.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:17 AM
Originally Posted by Argonaut


3 outcomes, 11 different characterizations.

And you write?

I'm sure this is going to be hard for you to understand, but the illusion of choice includes "I'm going to say 11 different things, but you could get the same results just picking 1-3". Hey, I can say whatever I want, but if the character is going to rent me that room for full price, half price or free, why waste the time with all those other options? "But my characterization"!!!!eleven11111", bah. When the protagonist isn't voiced, the characterization is on you anyway. If you can't translate an attitude through one selection of text that suggests it, but need someone to spell it out for you, are you really role playing in your role playing game, or are you waiting for someone to hold your hand?
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:22 AM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by sinogy
I just want romance in the game to be optional. I don't wanna play a dating (or banging this case) simulator in my RPG. And I am sure there are a lot of people thinking like me.

The fact that romance and companion relationship was a large part of the game has not been kept secret during development or release. It was all over the Larian websites and all over the previews. If you object to playing games that contain such content, why on earth did you buy the game?



How is it a large part of the game ffs? Speak based on your experince not based on corporate marketing talk.

You just hook up once Which is completely avoidable btw ( that means you can complete the game without having any intimate relationship with any one even if the system is there) and that was the whole so called romance thing throughout the whole Act.

Start thinking before posting.

Ah, nothing like reasoned debate.

Absolutely nothing like it.
Posted By: Argonaut Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:23 AM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Argonaut


3 outcomes, 11 different characterizations.

And you write?

I'm sure this is going to be hard for you to understand, but the illusion of choice includes "I'm going to say 11 different things, but you could get the same results just picking 1-3". Hey, I can say whatever I want, but if the character is going to rent me that room for full price, half price or free, why waste the time with all those other options? "But my characterization"!!!!eleven11111", bah. When the protagonist isn't voiced, the characterization is on you anyway. If you can't translate an attitude through one selection of text that suggests it, but need someone to spell it out for you, are you really role playing in your role playing game, or are you waiting for someone to hold your hand?

I don't know where you confused yourself as I didn't say anything about the illusion of choice. I'm talking about characterization which is an absolute basic principle for writing and a benchmark on which authors are broken. One attitude does not equate another and you can be aggressive for different reasons and this says many different things about you. Being aggressive because you are possessive and being aggressive because you are a tribal savage are two different things and the idea to include more options with more variety and different characterization is objectively superior in a role playing game. Do you think it is not important to give you choices that represent your character better in a game? Seriously?
Why is characterization impotant in a story?
Feel free to argue with me, but you are arguing that characterization is not important and anyone with 5 minutes and google can find a mountain of evidence against this idea from best selling authors.

Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:30 AM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by sinogy
I just want romance in the game to be optional. I don't wanna play a dating (or banging this case) simulator in my RPG. And I am sure there are a lot of people thinking like me.

The fact that romance and companion relationship was a large part of the game has not been kept secret during development or release. It was all over the Larian websites and all over the previews. If you object to playing games that contain such content, why on earth did you buy the game?



How is it a large part of the game ffs? Speak based on your experince not based on corporate marketing talk.

You just hook up once Which is completely avoidable btw ( that means you can complete the game without having any intimate relationship with any one even if the system is there) and that was the whole so called romance thing throughout the whole Act.

Start thinking before posting.

Ah, nothing like reasoned debate.

Absolutely nothing like it.


Then enlighten me how on earth and heaven did you get the impression romance will be a large part of the game? Please, I am begging you.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:32 AM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by sinogy
I just want romance in the game to be optional. I don't wanna play a dating (or banging this case) simulator in my RPG. And I am sure there are a lot of people thinking like me.

The fact that romance and companion relationship was a large part of the game has not been kept secret during development or release. It was all over the Larian websites and all over the previews. If you object to playing games that contain such content, why on earth did you buy the game?



How is it a large part of the game ffs? Speak based on your experince not based on corporate marketing talk.

You just hook up once Which is completely avoidable btw ( that means you can complete the game without having any intimate relationship with any one even if the system is there) and that was the whole so called romance thing throughout the whole Act.

Start thinking before posting.

That's a really good idea. So maybe we shouldn't have threads like "This is not a romance!" based on a chapter 1 one night stand? Would it make you feel better if they took you down to the shore, and had a nice little picnic laid out, with wine and flowers, and maybe a choir, since we don't have radios yet? Maybe they should have had a ring, and an appropriate priest to do a marriage ceremony afterwards? Maybe they needed to have their people contact your people and submit a resume before expressing interest in you at all? Isn't that where modern "romance" is heading now?

Do you want to know what I find really hilarious about this? That it is completely avoidable, and yet you chose not to avoid it, and then complain about it? Speculation on my part, maybe you just watched on YouTube, and don't even know what all went in to getting where they were in the video? Anyway, what information do you have about the progression into Act II and Act III of this "not a romance"? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say none, am I right? But hey, if I'm wrong, you can shoot me a DM with the links to your insider information, so I can take a look through what you provided. I'm more than happy to correct myself when I'm wrong.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:33 AM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Argonaut


3 outcomes, 11 different characterizations.

And you write?

I'm sure this is going to be hard for you to understand, but the illusion of choice includes "I'm going to say 11 different things, but you could get the same results just picking 1-3". Hey, I can say whatever I want, but if the character is going to rent me that room for full price, half price or free, why waste the time with all those other options? "But my characterization"!!!!eleven11111", bah. When the protagonist isn't voiced, the characterization is on you anyway. If you can't translate an attitude through one selection of text that suggests it, but need someone to spell it out for you, are you really role playing in your role playing game, or are you waiting for someone to hold your hand?

I don't know where you confused yourself as I didn't say anything about the illusion of choice. I'm talking about characterization which is an absolute basic principle for writing and a benchmark on which authors are broken. One attitude does not equate another and you can be aggressive for different reasons and this says many different things about you. Being aggressive because you are possessive and being aggressive because you are a tribal savage are two different things and the idea to include more options with more variety and different characterization is objectively superior in a role playing game. Do you think it is not important to give you choices that represent your character better in a game? Seriously?
Why is characterization impotant in a story?
Feel free to argue with me, but you are arguing that characterization is not important and anyone with 5 minutes and google can find a mountain of evidence against this idea from best selling authors.


Because you didn't read the post you replied to?
Posted By: Argonaut Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:35 AM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Argonaut


3 outcomes, 11 different characterizations.

And you write?

I'm sure this is going to be hard for you to understand, but the illusion of choice includes "I'm going to say 11 different things, but you could get the same results just picking 1-3". Hey, I can say whatever I want, but if the character is going to rent me that room for full price, half price or free, why waste the time with all those other options? "But my characterization"!!!!eleven11111", bah. When the protagonist isn't voiced, the characterization is on you anyway. If you can't translate an attitude through one selection of text that suggests it, but need someone to spell it out for you, are you really role playing in your role playing game, or are you waiting for someone to hold your hand?

I don't know where you confused yourself as I didn't say anything about the illusion of choice. I'm talking about characterization which is an absolute basic principle for writing and a benchmark on which authors are broken. One attitude does not equate another and you can be aggressive for different reasons and this says many different things about you. Being aggressive because you are possessive and being aggressive because you are a tribal savage are two different things and the idea to include more options with more variety and different characterization is objectively superior in a role playing game. Do you think it is not important to give you choices that represent your character better in a game? Seriously?
Why is characterization impotant in a story?
Feel free to argue with me, but you are arguing that characterization is not important and anyone with 5 minutes and google can find a mountain of evidence against this idea from best selling authors.


Because you didn't read the post you replied to?

I read it twice, it dismissed the value of having 11 choices based on there being 3 outcomes completely missing how much depth and variety they add via characterization. Much like everything else in life the end is not the journey. I'll point it out for you.

Originally Posted by robertthebard
Ah, to be a "youngen" again. I'm afraid that ship sailed for me before some of the people in these forums were born. The sad thing is, looking at all those choices, you only got about 3 outcomes. Sorry, were we discussing the "illusion of choice"? I've enjoyed my fair share, and probably a few other people's fair share too, of novels in my day. I've even picked up a pen to write a few pages here and there. But I'll take my illusion of choice in the streamlined version, tyvm. It's not like there were no "but that wasn't supposed to happen" moments when I had 11 choices of non-voiced dialog, after all.


Plot points VS Plot lines.
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:35 AM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Why is characterization impotant in a story?
Feel free to argue with me, but you are arguing that characterization is not important and anyone with 5 minutes and google can find a mountain of evidence against this idea from best selling authors.


True, but that requires actual writing skill... that's why consistent characterization has been replaced with surface level audience representation, in much of modern fiction writing.
Posted By: Argonaut Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:43 AM
It's not even audience representation WarBaby. Pick any conversation at random and you can most likely color code it for good choice, less good choice, sarcastic choice, bad choice.
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:43 AM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by sinogy
I just want romance in the game to be optional. I don't wanna play a dating (or banging this case) simulator in my RPG. And I am sure there are a lot of people thinking like me.

The fact that romance and companion relationship was a large part of the game has not been kept secret during development or release. It was all over the Larian websites and all over the previews. If you object to playing games that contain such content, why on earth did you buy the game?



How is it a large part of the game ffs? Speak based on your experince not based on corporate marketing talk.

You just hook up once Which is completely avoidable btw ( that means you can complete the game without having any intimate relationship with any one even if the system is there) and that was the whole so called romance thing throughout the whole Act.

Start thinking before posting.

That's a really good idea. So maybe we shouldn't have threads like "This is not a romance!" based on a chapter 1 one night stand? Would it make you feel better if they took you down to the shore, and had a nice little picnic laid out, with wine and flowers, and maybe a choir, since we don't have radios yet? Maybe they should have had a ring, and an appropriate priest to do a marriage ceremony afterwards? Maybe they needed to have their people contact your people and submit a resume before expressing interest in you at all? Isn't that where modern "romance" is heading now?

Do you want to know what I find really hilarious about this? That it is completely avoidable, and yet you chose not to avoid it, and then complain about it? Speculation on my part, maybe you just watched on YouTube, and don't even know what all went in to getting where they were in the video? Anyway, what information do you have about the progression into Act II and Act III of this "not a romance"? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say none, am I right? But hey, if I'm wrong, you can shoot me a DM with the links to your insider information, so I can take a look through what you provided. I'm more than happy to correct myself when I'm wrong.


You assume too much. "Maybe"s are endless. For example, maybe you are a pervert and a loser in real life and enjoy one night stands, which add nothing to gameplay in any shape or form, in video games.

That is the our general problem in current times. We do not speak and act based on our experiences but based on wishful thinking and pseudo-good will.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:44 AM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Sadurian
The fact that romance and companion relationship was a large part of the game has not been kept secret during development or release. It was all over the Larian websites and all over the previews. If you object to playing games that contain such content, why on earth did you buy the game?



How is it a large part of the game ffs? Speak based on your experince not based on corporate marketing talk.

You just hook up once Which is completely avoidable btw ( that means you can complete the game without having any intimate relationship with any one even if the system is there) and that was the whole so called romance thing throughout the whole Act.

Start thinking before posting.

Ah, nothing like reasoned debate.

Absolutely nothing like it.


Then enlighten me how on earth and heaven did you get the impression romance will be a large part of the game? Please, I am begging you.

Go to Larian's website. The huge advert for BG3 there is entitled 'Love in the Forgotten Realms'. Go to just about any review of the game. The romance features heavily. Play the game. The romance and relationship scenes occur just about every time you camp.

You need to be willfully looking the other way to not notice that it is a large part of the game.
Posted By: Argonaut Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:46 AM
@Sadurian
Tbh I think that is more of a misdirection tactic by presenting something that will receive mass appeal as important and put it in the forefront and focus of discussion so as to avoid other issues that are move involved such as balance, mechanics or writing taking a prevalent spot. It is a very commonplace marketing tactic and should tell you a lot about the company in and of itself.
Posted By: Riandor Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:48 AM
The discussion of a mountain of text vs cinematic is a different one, though my 2cents for what it’s worth is that despite being if the older generation, I prefer cinematics and speech.

Witcher 3 showed how possible it can be if you’re willing to put the effort in. I’m not sure they alllll need to be as presented, I would be happy enough for more conversation points to be with text overhead like the banter you hear whilst walking around, rather than interrupting the flow of the game all the time, but that’s a preference.

The problem at the moment is the unfinished character animations for customs, where we react either bored, smug or aghast and due to no speech deliver very little nuance.

I think that’s where the block text approach benefits because it’s allll in your own head. The moment you apply cinematics and speech you have to pour a ton of effort in to not make it look cliche or clunky. We’re not there yet, but I’m hopeful Larian will bring that part up to scratch as development continues.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:49 AM
Whether it is misdirection or not, the Romance and Relationships part of BG3 has been highly prominent in the advertising and promotions for the game. It would have been very easy to have seen this before EA launch and, if relationships in CRPGs are not only not your thing but so offensive as to warrant calling for it to be cut from the game, to have avoided it by not buying the game.
Posted By: Argonaut Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:50 AM
@Riandor
Witcher 3 was not an RPG and Geralt is a fixed character in the universe with a fixed personality. Can you give an example of what you support where this is not the case?
Posted By: Azarielle Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:50 AM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
[quote=robertthebard][quote=Argonaut]

Feel free to argue with me, but you are arguing that characterization is not important and anyone with 5 minutes and google can find a mountain of evidence against this idea from best selling authors.



Wow and here we we're having an almost civil discussion until you discovered this topic as well and decided to grace us with your presence and superior intellect AGAIN.

Can we just all agree you won -we've all been elightened in your presence and allow you to move on to the next topic please?

Offtopic: I really wouldn't quote bestselling authors for reference on anything, BG3 characterisation even as it is right now blows the socks off those two that wrote 50 shades of grey and twilight series
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:51 AM

[/quote]
Go to Larian's website. The huge advert for BG3 there is entitled 'Love in the Forgotten Realms'. Go to just about any review of the game. The romance features heavily. Play the game. The romance and relationship scenes occur just about every time you camp.

You need to be willfully looking the other way to not notice that it is a large part of the game.[/quote]

Are you for real?! I dont need to go anywhere. I have EA. I am playing the game. None of these things you think exist DO NOT exist in the game. That one night hook up has "0", I repeat "zero", effect on gameplay.
Stop being a mouth piece for a corporation you give your money.
Posted By: Argonaut Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by Azarielle
Originally Posted by Argonaut
[quote=robertthebard][quote=Argonaut]

Feel free to argue with me, but you are arguing that characterization is not important and anyone with 5 minutes and google can find a mountain of evidence against this idea from best selling authors.



Wow and here we we're having an almost civil discussion until you discovered this topic as well and decided to grace us with your presence and superior intellect AGAIN.

Can we just all agree you won -we've all been elightened in your presence and allow you to move on to the next topic please?

Offtopic: I really wouldn't quote bestselling authors for reference on anything, BG3 characterisation even as it is right now blows the socks off those two that wrote 50 shades of grey and twilight series

I don't care.

If you believe me to be wrong present evidence. If you want to have a circlejerk do it on a non public forum. If you hear best selling Authors and think twillight and 50 shades of grey and not Douglas Adams or Tolkien, CS Lewis, Leigh Bard etc that is a you problem and not a me problem. Read more fantasy and less drivel.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 11:56 AM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Are you for real?! I dont need to go anywhere. I have EA. I am playing the game. None of these things you think exist DO NOT exist in the game. That one night hook up has "0", I repeat "zero", effect on gameplay.
Stop being a mouth piece for a corporation you give your money.

Your tone is getting increasingly offensive and I don't think you are here for reasoned debate.

Please feel free to continue in a more level manner later on, but I'm not involving myself in a ranting argument where we resort to name-calling and insinuation.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 12:00 PM
This thread has become very toxic.

It was a reasonably polite debate until recently. Can people unstick their egos from the argument and start allowing others to hold contrary opinions? The alternative seems to be that a formerly interesting thread gets locked.
Posted By: vometia Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 12:00 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
You assume too much. "Maybe"s are endless. For example, maybe you are a pervert and a loser in real life and enjoy one night stands, which add nothing to gameplay in any shape or form, in video games.

That is the our general problem in current times. We do not speak and act based on our experiences but based on wishful thinking and pseudo-good will.

Be polite, please. If you wish to speak to people like that, you can do it somewhere else.
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 12:03 PM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by sinogy
Are you for real?! I dont need to go anywhere. I have EA. I am playing the game. None of these things you think exist DO NOT exist in the game. That one night hook up has "0", I repeat "zero", effect on gameplay.
Stop being a mouth piece for a corporation you give your money.

Your tone is getting increasingly offensive and I don't think you are here for reasoned debate.

Please feel free to continue in a more level manner later on, but I'm not involving myself in a ranting argument where we resort to name-calling and insinuation.



OOOOOH ofc you are offended. Ofc... Why bother trying to back your ideas with reason and logic or willing to change your ideas before clear as deay light reality? Why? Ofc. you are offended. Ofc. you become a victim. It is too easy to pass.

Every one gets offended nowadays for anything. Why not you? I am so sorry for being offensive. It was a crime against humanity and against snowflakes.
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by sinogy
You assume too much. "Maybe"s are endless. For example, maybe you are a pervert and a loser in real life and enjoy one night stands, which add nothing to gameplay in any shape or form, in video games.

That is the our general problem in current times. We do not speak and act based on our experiences but based on wishful thinking and pseudo-good will.

Be polite, please. If you wish to speak to people like that, you can do it somewhere else.


I don't see anything in my post not being polite.

Actually you are not polite for accusing me for not being polite for no reason!
Posted By: Azarielle Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 12:08 PM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Azarielle
Originally Posted by Argonaut
[quote=robertthebard][quote=Argonaut]

Feel free to argue with me, but you are arguing that characterization is not important and anyone with 5 minutes and google can find a mountain of evidence against this idea from best selling authors.



Wow and here we we're having an almost civil discussion until you discovered this topic as well and decided to grace us with your presence and superior intellect AGAIN.

Can we just all agree you won -we've all been elightened in your presence and allow you to move on to the next topic please?

Offtopic: I really wouldn't quote bestselling authors for reference on anything, BG3 characterisation even as it is right now blows the socks off those two that wrote 50 shades of grey and twilight series

I don't care.

If you believe me to be wrong present evidence. If you want to have a circlejerk do it on a non public forum. If you hear best selling Authors and think twillight and 50 shades of grey and not Douglas Adams or Tolkien, CS Lewis, Leigh Bard etc that is a you problem and not a me problem. Read more fantasy and less drivel.


Was is it you who wrote bestselling authors or was it me?
And TYVM I actually prefer other types of literature despite being a long time gamer (Marquez, Rushdie, Houellebecq etc) even at it's best fantasy literature can be very lacking with some bright exceptions.

I love Tolkien as much as the next person but to call it high literature is a bit of overstatement + his characterisation is at least mildly lacking as well in many places. If I had to pick my reference I'd go with Neil Gaiman. Which also makes me kind of doubt your references mentioned in your other hot topics.
Posted By: robertthebard Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 12:09 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by robertthebard

That's a really good idea. So maybe we shouldn't have threads like "This is not a romance!" based on a chapter 1 one night stand? Would it make you feel better if they took you down to the shore, and had a nice little picnic laid out, with wine and flowers, and maybe a choir, since we don't have radios yet? Maybe they should have had a ring, and an appropriate priest to do a marriage ceremony afterwards? Maybe they needed to have their people contact your people and submit a resume before expressing interest in you at all? Isn't that where modern "romance" is heading now?

Do you want to know what I find really hilarious about this? That it is completely avoidable, and yet you chose not to avoid it, and then complain about it? Speculation on my part, maybe you just watched on YouTube, and don't even know what all went in to getting where they were in the video? Anyway, what information do you have about the progression into Act II and Act III of this "not a romance"? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say none, am I right? But hey, if I'm wrong, you can shoot me a DM with the links to your insider information, so I can take a look through what you provided. I'm more than happy to correct myself when I'm wrong.


You assume too much. "Maybe"s are endless. For example, maybe you are a pervert and a loser in real life and enjoy one night stands, which add nothing to gameplay in any shape or form, in video games.

That is the our general problem in current times. We do not speak and act based on our experiences but based on wishful thinking and pseudo-good will.

I really didn't assume anything. I asked you for your evidence. That's why there are so many ?s in the post. The biggest assumption here is that I'm not speaking from my own experiences. I am. I am speaking from my own experiences with assorted video games with romances, and from my experiences out here in the real world. I am speaking from my experience here, where we have less than one third of the game, and in it, we have the potential for a one night stand. What I did, here, was ask for your information that goes beyond what we know. To state something as fact, one must have something to go on, and what we have evidently doesn't compare to what you know. So if you have that information, provide it. I've been in one night stands, and I've had what was supposed to be a one night stand turn into a long term relationship. I can't sit here today, with the information we have, and say "this isn't a romance" or "this relationship won't be important later". That's you, and that's an assumption based on what? Your own feelings? "But bad writing", then support that, show us where in the entirety of the relationship plotline, the writing is bad. I can't do it, because I don't have access to the entirety of the arc, but you, apparently, do? So lay it on us. That'd be great.
Posted By: sinogy Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 12:18 PM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by robertthebard

That's a really good idea. So maybe we shouldn't have threads like "This is not a romance!" based on a chapter 1 one night stand? Would it make you feel better if they took you down to the shore, and had a nice little picnic laid out, with wine and flowers, and maybe a choir, since we don't have radios yet? Maybe they should have had a ring, and an appropriate priest to do a marriage ceremony afterwards? Maybe they needed to have their people contact your people and submit a resume before expressing interest in you at all? Isn't that where modern "romance" is heading now?

Do you want to know what I find really hilarious about this? That it is completely avoidable, and yet you chose not to avoid it, and then complain about it? Speculation on my part, maybe you just watched on YouTube, and don't even know what all went in to getting where they were in the video? Anyway, what information do you have about the progression into Act II and Act III of this "not a romance"? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say none, am I right? But hey, if I'm wrong, you can shoot me a DM with the links to your insider information, so I can take a look through what you provided. I'm more than happy to correct myself when I'm wrong.


You assume too much. "Maybe"s are endless. For example, maybe you are a pervert and a loser in real life and enjoy one night stands, which add nothing to gameplay in any shape or form, in video games.

That is the our general problem in current times. We do not speak and act based on our experiences but based on wishful thinking and pseudo-good will.

I really didn't assume anything. I asked you for your evidence. That's why there are so many ?s in the post. The biggest assumption here is that I'm not speaking from my own experiences. I am. I am speaking from my own experiences with assorted video games with romances, and from my experiences out here in the real world. I am speaking from my experience here, where we have less than one third of the game, and in it, we have the potential for a one night stand. What I did, here, was ask for your information that goes beyond what we know. To state something as fact, one must have something to go on, and what we have evidently doesn't compare to what you know. So if you have that information, provide it. I've been in one night stands, and I've had what was supposed to be a one night stand turn into a long term relationship. I can't sit here today, with the information we have, and say "this isn't a romance" or "this relationship won't be important later". That's you, and that's an assumption based on what? Your own feelings? "But bad writing", then support that, show us where in the entirety of the relationship plotline, the writing is bad. I can't do it, because I don't have access to the entirety of the arc, but you, apparently, do? So lay it on us. That'd be great.



You assume everything yet you still act in denial. "I really didn't assume anything. I asked you for your evidence." right? is that so? First, you are no in shape or form to ask evidence because you either do not know what you wrote or are not honest.
Second, "That it is completely avoidable, and yet you chose not to avoid it, and then complain about it?" This is not a question. You don't ask questions by just putting question marks at end of your ideas and assumptions.
I am free to experience every possibility in a game I paid and complain about things I didn't like. Some people really care about the "immersion" in their games. Maybe you are not one of them but you can't expect any one to pass some aspects they don't like and pretend there is nothing to bother them.
Start thinking before trying to educate others.
Posted By: Argonaut Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 12:22 PM
Originally Posted by Azarielle

Was is it you who wrote bestselling authors or was it me?

And you first reaction was to pick drivel as opposed to authors of non drivel. This is a you problem.

Originally Posted by azarielle
And TYVM I actually prefer other types of literature despite being a long time gamer (Marquez, Rushdie, Houellebecq etc) even at it's best fantasy literature can be very lacking with some bright exceptions.

Was it me that misrepresented myself to gain traction in an argument or you?
Please expand on your second point. Tell me how Douglas Adams, C.S Lewis or Tolkien are lacking.

Originally Posted by azarielle
I love Tolkien as much as the next person but to call it high literature is a bit of overstatement + his characterisation is at least mildly lacking as well in many places. If I had to pick my reference I'd go with Neil Gaiman. Which also makes me kind of doubt your references mentioned in your other hot topics.

Please provide examples. Opinions are not evidence.

C-

Originally Posted by robertthebard
I am speaking from my own experiences with assorted video games with romances, and from my experiences out here in the real world. I am speaking from my experience here, where we have less than one third of the game, and in it, we have the potential for a one night stand.

Anecdote is as good as anecdote. Objective fact is where it is at. So far you don't understand characterization or the different between a plot point or a plot line so please stop presenting your opinion as fact or authority.

D+
Posted By: robertthebard Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 12:23 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by robertthebard

That's a really good idea. So maybe we shouldn't have threads like "This is not a romance!" based on a chapter 1 one night stand? Would it make you feel better if they took you down to the shore, and had a nice little picnic laid out, with wine and flowers, and maybe a choir, since we don't have radios yet? Maybe they should have had a ring, and an appropriate priest to do a marriage ceremony afterwards? Maybe they needed to have their people contact your people and submit a resume before expressing interest in you at all? Isn't that where modern "romance" is heading now?

Do you want to know what I find really hilarious about this? That it is completely avoidable, and yet you chose not to avoid it, and then complain about it? Speculation on my part, maybe you just watched on YouTube, and don't even know what all went in to getting where they were in the video? Anyway, what information do you have about the progression into Act II and Act III of this "not a romance"? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say none, am I right? But hey, if I'm wrong, you can shoot me a DM with the links to your insider information, so I can take a look through what you provided. I'm more than happy to correct myself when I'm wrong.


You assume too much. "Maybe"s are endless. For example, maybe you are a pervert and a loser in real life and enjoy one night stands, which add nothing to gameplay in any shape or form, in video games.

That is the our general problem in current times. We do not speak and act based on our experiences but based on wishful thinking and pseudo-good will.

I really didn't assume anything. I asked you for your evidence. That's why there are so many ?s in the post. The biggest assumption here is that I'm not speaking from my own experiences. I am. I am speaking from my own experiences with assorted video games with romances, and from my experiences out here in the real world. I am speaking from my experience here, where we have less than one third of the game, and in it, we have the potential for a one night stand. What I did, here, was ask for your information that goes beyond what we know. To state something as fact, one must have something to go on, and what we have evidently doesn't compare to what you know. So if you have that information, provide it. I've been in one night stands, and I've had what was supposed to be a one night stand turn into a long term relationship. I can't sit here today, with the information we have, and say "this isn't a romance" or "this relationship won't be important later". That's you, and that's an assumption based on what? Your own feelings? "But bad writing", then support that, show us where in the entirety of the relationship plotline, the writing is bad. I can't do it, because I don't have access to the entirety of the arc, but you, apparently, do? So lay it on us. That'd be great.



You assume everything yet you still act in denial. "I really didn't assume anything. I asked you for your evidence." right? is that so?
"That it is completely avoidable, and yet you chose not to avoid it, and then complain about it?" This is not a question. You don't ask questions by just putting question marks at end of your ideas and assumptions.
I am free to experience every possibility in a game I paid and complain about things I didn't like. Some people really care about the "immersion" in their games. Maybe you are not one of them but you can't expect any one to pass some aspects they don't like and pretend there is nothing to bother them.
Start thinking before trying to educate others.

Now, I want you to look at that sentence that you pulled out of the quote, and look at how it ends. Your here, educating us on writing, but you don't know what a question mark (?) represents? How does that work, exactly?
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 12:28 PM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Not just romances...cinematic dialogues in general are shallow with very few options. Romances feels totally unnatural, so it sticks out even more than the mediocre rest.
DOS2 BG2 handled way better, but you need to READ. And here lies to problem nowadays. Everyone has the attention span of a turnip unless you have cinematics.
Cinematics should complement your game (to a minimum for a better written story in my opinion...), not overtake it. Movies do a better job at that.

Check out the power of word. Now THATS choice :
[Linked Image]


Hah, yea, well... I've given up on trying to convey the merits of actual RPG's to the current generation of gamers some time ago. It's all about the spectacle and illusion choice with the "youngens". laugh

Seriously, though, it is possible to transport a "deep", complex, and varied story with "modern" means... they just have to be used effectively.

Ah, to be a "youngen" again. I'm afraid that ship sailed for me before some of the people in these forums were born. The sad thing is, looking at all those choices, you only got about 3 outcomes. Sorry, were we discussing the "illusion of choice"? I've enjoyed my fair share, and probably a few other people's fair share too, of novels in my day. I've even picked up a pen to write a few pages here and there. But I'll take my illusion of choice in the streamlined version, tyvm. It's not like there were no "but that wasn't supposed to happen" moments when I had 11 choices of non-voiced dialog, after all.

3 outcomes, 11 different characterizations.

And you write?


I think that we can all agree even if there is 3 or 4 "endings", it is the JOURNEY of the 11 <characterization> that makes the adventure worthwhile. Unless you are a speedrunner wink
Posted By: Argonaut Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 12:32 PM
@mr_planescapist
Yes, this was my point. It is why I think writing in older games is better whereas writing for BG3 is poor at best. It is also why I think the excuse of EA is nonsense because characterization is something that needs to be fairly prevalent throughout the story, including it's beginning.
Posted By: Eddiar Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 12:43 PM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Go to Larian's website. The huge advert for BG3 there is entitled 'Love in the Forgotten Realms'. Go to just about any review of the game. The romance features heavily. Play the game. The romance and relationship scenes occur just about every time you camp.

You need to be willfully looking the other way to not notice that it is a large part of the game.


I don't think romance currently in BG3 comes even close to even the tackiest dating simulation games.
In fact its so barebones that it is incredibly cringe.

I have clocked about a 100 hours into this game and the romance lasted about 20 minutes total.
I don't mean fancy mocap sex scenes, or an interactive sex minigame. I am talking about dialogue scenes too... you know the whole point of companions in BG3 or D&D game in general.

Which you know is a huge deal in a dnd game.
I think your post is just blatantly misinformed and that doesn't seem like a good recipe for constructive discussion.
Posted By: Azarielle Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 12:46 PM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Azarielle

Was is it you who wrote bestselling authors or was it me?

And you first reaction was to pick drivel as opposed to authors of non drivel. This is a you problem.

Originally Posted by azarielle
And TYVM I actually prefer other types of literature despite being a long time gamer (Marquez, Rushdie, Houellebecq etc) even at it's best fantasy literature can be very lacking with some bright exceptions.

Was it me that represented myself to gain traction in an argument or you?
Please expand on your second point. Tell me how Douglas Adams, C.S Lewis or Tolkien are lacking.

Originally Posted by azarielle
I love Tolkien as much as the next person but to call it high literature is a bit of overstatement + his characterisation is at least mildly lacking as well in many places. If I had to pick my reference I'd go with Neil Gaiman. Which also makes me kind of doubt your references mentioned in your other hot topics.

Please provide examples. Opinions are not evidence.

C-

Originally Posted by robertthebard
I am speaking from my own experiences with assorted video games with romances, and from my experiences out here in the real world. I am speaking from my experience here, where we have less than one third of the game, and in it, we have the potential for a one night stand.

Anecdote is as good as anecdote. Objective fact is where it is at. So far you don't understand characterization or the different between a plot point or a plot line so please stop presenting your opinion as fact or authority.

D+


Oh wow now we're even getting grades?! On a gaming forum no less? I've seen many things (trust me -played WOW for years) but this is a first! Count me impressed!

Besides I have better things to do than wrote literary essays for you especially on something that should be self evident to a self proclaimed expert on literature.

Maybe you could write us - the unenlightened an essay on why Legolas is so infinitely better characterised than say Gale (and it's not even a fair competitions with only having Act1 available to go by).

And I agree this probably calls for a lockdown any time now.
Posted By: Riandor Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 12:46 PM
I would appreciate it if we could keep the thread about relationships, rather than the tit for tat that’s going on in here.

As for the W3 not being an rpg, I respectfully disagree. You still play a role, you decide how Geralt behaves, who he romances, what his build is and to a minor degree, his look. Yes, a lot is “predetermined” but it is still an RPG, and you could certainly argue it’s more of an rpg than taking any of the origin characters in BG3 (based on current evidence), other than the potential here in BG3 to decide which side of the story you are on. Yeah you can’t join the Wild Hunt and be a real evil ass, but you do decide Ciri’s fate.

But that’s really by the by and missing the point of what is possible in AAA cinematic driven conversational games. Mass Effect, Dragon Age etc...

Given also how BG3 is set-up, it will draw comparisons to the above titles, including W3 in terms of story and presentation. No BG3 isn’t open world, it has large areas, but still.

So far the romance options I have witnessed (and those certainly are not all - only the tiefling party after killing the goblins), seemed awkward. I have no issue with the guys coming on to my male half elf character, or a Githyanki needing to blow off some steam or Shadowheart preferring a more wine and chat approach, but all at the same time and all being Whitney about you having already chosen someone is just too much. I mean jeez, if that’s the case then let us have a whole party orgy if we truly play it right and then it’s win win on the options front.

Another thing I struggle with currently is that the whole character ABC approves or disapproves is flashed up and gone too quickly. Often you’re mid conversation and don’t realize immediately the effect of your choice and who was happy with what.

I would like to include that info in the log and have a more visual/audio clue with how they are feeling about us when we I urinate conversation. Maybe I just haven’t had enough of a swing to witness what might already be there, but without digging into the character sheets, I don’t know what each character thinks of me currently.




Posted By: Grantig Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 12:51 PM
Good writing/storytelling and decisions that actually count is so rare these days that games with it extremely outstand.
Like, you know, Witcher 3...


DOS 2 is a good example for bad writing in my opinion. The story was so bad I didn't even care to follow it, "decisions" were worthless.
Wasteland 3 also falls in that category, retarded decisions all the way while logical solutions were left out; couldn't care much about the finale.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by Riandor
Another thing I struggle with currently is that the whole character ABC approves or disapproves is flashed up and gone too quickly. Often you’re mid conversation and don’t realize immediately the effect of your choice and Mia who was happy with what.

I would like to include that info in the log and have a more visual/audio clue with how they are feeling about us when we I urinate conversation. Maybe I just haven’t had enough of a swing to witness what might already be there, but without digging into the character sheets, I don’t know what each character thinks of me currently.

I agree here. The relationship you have with the NPCs, and how your choices affect them, is written through the game and yet there is no current way to determine how you are viewed except by picking up clues in conversation. In some games, the relationship you have with your NPC companions triggers events later in the game. In BG and BG2, for just one example, you could have a Companion storm off if your relationship with them went sour because you picked the wrong choice.

I don't think a hard numerical meter would fit, but some easily-checked indication as to whether the relationship was good, neutral or bad would be nice. Something you could check in camp, perhaps.
Posted By: Eddiar Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 12:54 PM
I agree Riandor... maybe when selecting a dialogue or action we can see what the other character approves or disapproves of.

Also I mentioned this before, add more dialogue to the characters when we talk to them during the adventure. For example if I talk to Shadowheart in the middle of a Selunite ruin maybe I could see her giggle a little? Or Astarion in the middle of a swamp to complain?

And then let the player flirt with them there to raise the romance flag.
I currently have Gale as the highest approving character, i don't want him to keep hitting on my PC just because of that. There should be a specific action by the player to start this type of behavior.

Otherwise its just awkward and tiring.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 12:57 PM
Originally Posted by Eddiar
I don't think romance currently in BG3 comes even close to even the tackiest dating simulation games.
In fact its so barebones that it is incredibly cringe.

I have clocked about a 100 hours into this game and the romance lasted about 20 minutes total.
I don't mean fancy mocap sex scenes, or an interactive sex minigame. I am talking about dialogue scenes too... you know the whole point of companions in BG3 or D&D game in general.

Which you know is a huge deal in a dnd game.
I think your post is just blatantly misinformed and that doesn't seem like a good recipe for constructive discussion.

I'm not talking solely about romance here, I'm talking about relationships and romance. You can probably play to the end of the entire game without choosing romance, but you cannot avoid relationships because they happen even if you don't actively acknowledge them.
Posted By: Riandor Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 01:04 PM
I’m hoping it’s an EA test thing, but it would be a little odd maybe if every character wants to romance you irrespective of sexuality. I mean perhaps that’s refreshing in some regards, but even in a fantasy setting I would expect to see preferences, even if it’s possible to override them if you put a lot of effort in.

Iirc you could do this with primarily straight characters in both Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age Inquisition, but you pushed for it.

Regardless it would just be slightly more realistic if certain characters were just ecstatic to have someone they can call a friend in the current situation. Trust is usually in short supply. That shouldn’t immediately mean drop clothes at the first opportunity, though in turn for some characters that would fit.

I.e. everyone behaving the same way at the same time with regards to dropping their pants is a little jarring Larian!! grin

More foreplay required ;-)
Posted By: Sigi98 Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Riandor
Another thing I struggle with currently is that the whole character ABC approves or disapproves is flashed up and gone too quickly. Often you’re mid conversation and don’t realize immediately the effect of your choice and Mia who was happy with what.

I would like to include that info in the log and have a more visual/audio clue with how they are feeling about us when we I urinate conversation. Maybe I just haven’t had enough of a swing to witness what might already be there, but without digging into the character sheets, I don’t know what each character thinks of me currently.

I agree here. The relationship you have with the NPCs, and how your choices affect them, is written through the game and yet there is no current way to determine how you are viewed except by picking up clues in conversation. In some games, the relationship you have with your NPC companions triggers events later in the game. In BG and BG2, for just one example, you could have a Companion storm off if your relationship with them went sour because you picked the wrong choice.

I don't think a hard numerical meter would fit, but some easily-checked indication as to whether the relationship was good, neutral or bad would be nice. Something you could check in camp, perhaps.


If you right click on a companion --> examine, then you can see how the view you... (neutral, medium, high, very high and so on....)
Posted By: robertthebard Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by Riandor
I’m hoping it’s an EA test thing, but it would be a little odd maybe if every character wants to romance you irrespective of sexuality. I mean perhaps that’s refreshing in some regards, but even in a fantasy setting I would expect to see preferences, even if it’s possible to override them if you put a lot of effort in.

Iirc you could do this with primarily straight characters in both Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age Inquisition, but you pushed for it.

Regardless it would just be slightly more realistic if certain characters were just ecstatic to have someone they can call a friend in the current situation. Trust is usually in short supply. That shouldn’t immediately mean drop clothes at the first opportunity, though in turn for some characters that would fit.

I.e. everyone behaving the same way at the same time with regards to dropping their pants is a little jarring Larian!! grin

More foreplay required ;-)

Nope, barring mods, femshep could not romance Tali in ME 2, or 3, and the same was true in DA I. Someone provided some mods, but the romances had preferences, and stuck to them. BioWare did some changing in Andromeda, for Jaal, for sure, but other than that, they had preferences too, and frankly, I'm down with that. Everyone I know out here in the real world has preferences, and I'm not on that list for some of them, and I'm ok with that too.
Posted By: Azarielle Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 01:24 PM
I agree, more interaction overall is certainly needed, but we should probably cut them some slack since we're in EA and even a lot of content that is already there isn't triggering correctly on many occasions.

As for sexuality - I really see no reason why I should be offended by anyone's sexual preference in game or otherwise (ofc excluding some extremes).

But maybe a workaround that would please most people here would be to have PC subtly express their preference in conversation or make first step while interacting with an NPC (I think Gale is a good example here).
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 01:31 PM
I see the sexuality thing as being the Companion you choose to sleep with just happens to be of the right sexuality. The meta-knowledge that any of the others would have also had that sexuality is not a problem to me, I just assume that they may or may not have been interested and concentrate on the one I've chosen. I can overlook conversation clues.

As for being uncomfortable or offended by being approached by the 'wrong' sexuality, I am a straight man who has been propositioned by more gay men than by straight women. It doesn't upset me in any way, and is actually quite refreshingly flattering.
Posted By: Riandor Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by Sigi98
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Riandor
Another thing I struggle with currently is that the whole character ABC approves or disapproves is flashed up and gone too quickly. Often you’re mid conversation and don’t realize immediately the effect of your choice and Mia who was happy with what.

I would like to include that info in the log and have a more visual/audio clue with how they are feeling about us when we I urinate conversation. Maybe I just haven’t had enough of a swing to witness what might already be there, but without digging into the character sheets, I don’t know what each character thinks of me currently.

I agree here. The relationship you have with the NPCs, and how your choices affect them, is written through the game and yet there is no current way to determine how you are viewed except by picking up clues in conversation. In some games, the relationship you have with your NPC companions triggers events later in the game. In BG and BG2, for just one example, you could have a Companion storm off if your relationship with them went sour because you picked the wrong choice.

I don't think a hard numerical meter would fit, but some easily-checked indication as to whether the relationship was good, neutral or bad would be nice. Something you could check in camp, perhaps.


If you right click on a companion --> examine, then you can see how the view you... (neutral, medium, high, very high and so on....)

Like I said, other than going into a menu to find it, there, at first glance, does not appear to be a way of seeing your status with someone when initiating chat. Maybe it's just the characters are all prickly anyway that the nuance is a little lost on me so far. I have only played the 30hrs, so it just might simply not be enough time to have noticed.

As for the Femshep example, yes that's correct, I just had it in mind that there were characters harder to romance than others, but maybe that wasn't based on sexual preferences, just general stance on relationships with PC (i.e. certain characters were just designed to be tougher to romance). Been a while since I played those games.

Anyway, totatlly agree Azarielle... totaly cutting Larian some slack here, it's EA and I am sure there will be some changes, but perhaps not necessarily in "preferences of the Origin characters", so it's fine for us all to express how we feel about the characters romantic or non romantic interactions with us.
Posted By: Eddiar Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 01:38 PM
Crazy idea.
That night if the party the player has to roll charisma to flirt and do the one night stand.

Lmao.
Posted By: Moirnelithe Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 01:44 PM
@OP Indeed, it's not romance if the Loviathar priest of pain isn't included frown
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
@OP Indeed, it's not romance if the Loviathar priest of pain isn't included frown


Pfff, there is only one goddess of everything "horny", and that's Beshaba! Sune is a prude next to her whip work... wink
Posted By: Riandor Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Crazy idea.
That night if the party the player has to roll charisma to flirt and do the one night stand.

Lmao.


Ha ha, I actually like this, as long as it's not a "hard fail" (no pun intended), depending on your standing. Witcher 3 had some funny moments (not die roll driven obviously), but what if you had a GOOD standing with your beau of choice but failed the charisma check, I would hate it if they went all sourpuss, but maybe something funny happened. Referencing the Witcher again, what if Shadowheart needs longer to get in the mood because of your die roll and falls asleep or drinks too much and vomits. (See Shani in W3 for details). It's funny or quirky vs Hard Win / Hard Fail. The character who technically likes you could be sheepish or want to ignore it the next day without the "your die roll just got you relegated to the bench until enough in game time has passed to try again".

Obviously if standing not on sure footing, then the Charisma roll takes on more meaning, i.e. going for broke and with the harder consequences that may or may not bring, depending on character. Or perhaps a character is straight, but you use your wily charms to come round to your way of thinking!
Posted By: Baraz Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by robertthebard

I'm not inclined to run around saying "Hey, are you straight? Wanna hook up?". Of course, for my generation, asking a woman out on a date wasn't considered assault. I have actually asked a lesbian out on a date, and she politely told me that wasn't into men, but thanks anyway. Ironically, even asking "hey, are you into x" today can find you on the receiving end of a criminal complaint, because reasons? You see, once upon a time, if someone took an interest in someone else, they didn't have to have their lawyer talk to their lawyer to obtain a 57 page permission slip to ask them out. So when I see things like this in camp, it's just another day at the beach, instead of "Help, call the police, I've been assaulted".

Not remotely close to what I was thinking or saying in my opinion.
Laezel suddenly, out of the blue, gives me an angry zealous rant, when we never said anything before ... Does not fit her personality... and everyone else also gives their semi-jealous remarks when we had nothing going on.

As for the hints of sexual orientation, I personally do not outright propose sex to people around me without testing the waters. Not saying it should be as insanely complicated as in real life :P, but a bit of innuendo and flirting beforehand serves two purposes in the game design: a) player indicates to companions if the main character is somewhat open to men/women/or both and b) simulates a form of flirting leading up to...

Moreover, the flirting/banter beforehand can hint about if a companion wants only sex or also relationship/friendship. But, currently, we are far from that level. Just the above would be a needed improvement.

EDIT : I think it is visible that the scene in question was rushed for Early Access and is a work-in-progress to be fixed.
Posted By: Baraz Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
@OP Indeed, it's not romance if the Loviathar priest of pain isn't included frown

Oh ! I did not kill him : I should have invited him to the party !
Posted By: Eddiar Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by Riandor
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Crazy idea.
That night if the party the player has to roll charisma to flirt and do the one night stand.

Lmao.


Ha ha, I actually like this, as long as it's not a "hard fail" (no pun intended), depending on your standing. Witcher 3 had some funny moments (not die roll driven obviously), but what if you had a GOOD standing with your beau of choice but failed the charisma check, I would hate it if they went all sourpuss, but maybe something funny happened. Referencing the Witcher again, what if Shadowheart needs longer to get in the mood because of your die roll and falls asleep or drinks too much and vomits. (See Shani in W3 for details). It's funny or quirky vs Hard Win / Hard Fail. The character who technically likes you could be sheepish or want to ignore it the next day without the "your die roll just got you relegated to the bench until enough in game time has passed to try again".

Obviously if standing not on sure footing, then the Charisma roll takes on more meaning, i.e. going for broke and with the harder consequences that may or may not bring, depending on character. Or perhaps a character is straight, but you use your wily charms to come round to your way of thinking!


Yep! Noodles are straight too until they get wet 😏😏😏😏
Posted By: Baraz Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Crazy idea.
That night if the party the player has to roll charisma to flirt and do the one night stand.

Lmao.

And the proverbial Constitution roll ...

( For those new at D&D : it is a classical for DMs to ask the character(s) to do a Constitution roll to determine how long they can last in sexual activity before falling asleep or other more shallow notions. It is dumb and more common for younger DMs. :P)
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by Baraz
And the proverbial Constitution roll ...

( For those new at D&D : it is a classical for DMs to ask the character(s) to do a Constitution roll to determine how long they can last in sexual activity before falling asleep or other more shallow notions. It is dumb and more common for younger DMs. :P)

Don't forget to roll for disease and for players of female characters to roll for pregnancy.

Gods, there were some terrible terrible GMs back in the day. there probably still are, come to that, but I doubt many descend to the crass and immature level that we saw in the early days. Of course, all this was accompanied by calls of, "why don't we see more girls playing?".



No, to be more accurate it would have been, "why don't we see more chicks playing."
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Baraz
And the proverbial Constitution roll ...

( For those new at D&D : it is a classical for DMs to ask the character(s) to do a Constitution roll to determine how long they can last in sexual activity before falling asleep or other more shallow notions. It is dumb and more common for younger DMs. :P)

Don't forget to roll for disease and for players of female characters to roll for pregnancy.

Gods, there were some terrible terrible GMs back in the day. there probably still are, come to that, but I doubt many descend to the crass and immature level that we saw in the early days. Of course, all this was accompanied by calls of, "why don't we see more girls playing?".



No, to be more accurate it would have been, "why don't we see more chicks playing."


Google "Book of Erotic Fantasy"... you're welcome. laugh
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 05:38 PM
A previous GM had that book. How we laughed.

Just a shame it came too late for B.A.D.D., because it would have blown their minds. Schnoebelen railed against the 1e Monster Manual showing a succubus, he would have had a coronary with BoEF.
Posted By: Azarielle Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by Baraz
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
@OP Indeed, it's not romance if the Loviathar priest of pain isn't included frown

Oh ! I did not kill him : I should have invited him to the party !


He and a few rats that haven't died in crossfire are the sole survivors of my visits to the goblin camp.

I have to give it to Astarion - killing goblins is a strangely satisfying job.
That priest is a legend though!
Posted By: Telephasic Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 05:41 PM
I could see introducing fixed orientations for the characters later on. But with five NPCs, I can see why they didn't want to do it now. I mean, I recall people were really upset when Dragon Age: Origins came out and there was only a SSM male romance option...and it was Zevran.

Since we only have five companions right now - and only two women - eliminating playersexuality would cut down on romance options considerably. But if we go up to 8-12 companions eventually, having a mixture of gay/bi/straight companion romance options makes sense.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 05:43 PM
The problem there is that the NPCs the developers decide are of one orientation might not be the ones that the players choose for their PCs.
Posted By: Azarielle Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
The problem there is that the NPCs the developers decide are of one orientation might not be the ones that the players choose for their PCs.


I agree, I couldn't really understand the fuss about it until I've met Dorian, eversince I've been a "whatever floats your boat" advocate 😉

Since they are writing the romance and most of the voice acting would be the same anyway I don't really see why not.

Just meta knowing it's there won't break your game in any way (maybe make it a bit less obvious for the more sensitive among us and everybody wins).
Posted By: Nicottia Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Baraz
And the proverbial Constitution roll ...

( For those new at D&D : it is a classical for DMs to ask the character(s) to do a Constitution roll to determine how long they can last in sexual activity before falling asleep or other more shallow notions. It is dumb and more common for younger DMs. :P)

Don't forget to roll for disease and for players of female characters to roll for pregnancy.

Gods, there were some terrible terrible GMs back in the day. there probably still are, come to that, but I doubt many descend to the crass and immature level that we saw in the early days. Of course, all this was accompanied by calls of, "why don't we see more girls playing?".



No, to be more accurate it would have been, "why don't we see more chicks playing."


Errr, I dunno about other 'chicks' experiences in the 'early' days of D&D, but I've been exposed to it when I was hella young, and all I could do was watch my cousin and his friends play it, asked them many times if I could join and all I got for an answer was:

1) 'We don't play with girls.'

2) 'It's only boys game, your brain can't comprehend it.'

So all I was doing was watching them play and reading the player handbook and imagining what class/race I'd pick if I was ever allowed to join them (what obviously never happened).

So... yes, you can still wonder why more chicks don't play it. wink
Posted By: Riandor Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
The problem there is that the NPCs the developers decide are of one orientation might not be the ones that the players choose for their PCs.

One could just make certain characters harder to woo if same sex rather than completely one way or the other. Thus keep options open but not make everyone instantly available. :hihi:
Posted By: Leuenherz Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 07:25 PM
As an aside, the screenshot provided on page 7 does not actually showcase official BG2 content.

It's from an NPC mod (Saerileth), which is, ironically, regarded poorly for its bad writing and romance.
Posted By: nation Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by Nicottia
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Baraz
And the proverbial Constitution roll ...

( For those new at D&D : it is a classical for DMs to ask the character(s) to do a Constitution roll to determine how long they can last in sexual activity before falling asleep or other more shallow notions. It is dumb and more common for younger DMs. :P)

Don't forget to roll for disease and for players of female characters to roll for pregnancy.

Gods, there were some terrible terrible GMs back in the day. there probably still are, come to that, but I doubt many descend to the crass and immature level that we saw in the early days. Of course, all this was accompanied by calls of, "why don't we see more girls playing?".



No, to be more accurate it would have been, "why don't we see more chicks playing."


Errr, I dunno about other 'chicks' experiences in the 'early' days of D&D, but I've been exposed to it when I was hella young, and all I could do was watch my cousin and his friends play it, asked them many times if I could join and all I got for an answer was:

1) 'We don't play with girls.'

2) 'It's only boys game, your brain can't comprehend it.'

So all I was doing was watching them play and reading the player handbook and imagining what class/race I'd pick if I was ever allowed to join them (what obviously never happened).

So... yes, you can still wonder why more chicks don't play it. wink
i saw your post and felt real bad - im sorry that you had to deal with that nicottia during your dnd career. the hobby has come a far way since some of those earlier days, but unfortunately there are still some of those dated behaviors/mannerisms present in the community (and society at large unfortunately) which is just sad. i hope that you eventually got to play with a good group - i would say that i was probly fortunate to not come across such dnd players/dms in my own experience (im also a dude so likely couldnt speak as well as you could on the topic), but that type of behavior wouldnt fly at a table i was at and it really doesnt have any place in the community.

i would fall back and say that if it works and everyone is comfortable in your group to roleplay some of those mature elements quoted then all the power to your dm and players, but it is important to set that standard before you start a campaign.

frankly, they missed out playing with you nicottia as every campaign ive played with ladies as part of the party has been better for the experience
Posted By: Nicottia Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by nation
i saw your post and felt real bad - im sorry that you had to deal with that nicottia during your dnd career. the hobby has come a far way since some of those earlier days, but unfortunately there are still some of those dated behaviors/mannerisms present in the community (and society at large unfortunately) which is just sad. i hope that you eventually got to play with a good group - i would say that i was probly fortunate to not come across such dnd players/dms in my own experience (im also a dude so likely couldnt speak as well as you could on the topic), but that type of behavior wouldnt fly at a table i was at and it really doesnt have any place in the community.

i would fall back and say that if it works and everyone is comfortable in your group to roleplay some of those mature elements quoted then all the power to your dm and players, but it is important to set that standard before you start a campaign.

frankly, they missed out playing with you nicottia as every campaign ive played with ladies as part of the party has been better for the experience


Oh, thanks... but I didn't write it for sympathy, when that occurred it was late 90ies/early 2000s, I always justified it by being a different time back then. Also, I did try joining some D&D clubs back at school too, and got denied for the same reason my cousin and his friend group denied me. Not gonna lie, I felt so discouraged I gave up on the idea of playing PnP D&D entirely for a really long time and started playing D&D based video games instead, which back then were also considered a 'boys domain'. wink

I'll tell you a little secret: I've never got to play PnP D&D, never found a big enough group to do it with, so I've been watching a lot of youtube videos of people playing D&D, watched a bunch of twitch streams too. So, I know most of the lore by heart, and I know most of the D&D 5.5e rules.

But I'm sure there are more ladies who've had similar, if not the same, experience as me. Anyway, I don't want to be derailing this topic further.

So let me add something to the topic, which I'm sure has been mentioned a lot of times before: speaking of romance in BG3.... I gotta say, it progresses way too fast. You go from few flirts to:

[Linked Image]

And I've been consistent in saying that there needs to be a bit more dialogue branching out in different directions, cause so far it's just 'one night stand simulator'.
Posted By: nation Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 08:38 PM
cool cool - still pulling for you to find a good group tho! i pretty much agree with everything in your post too about the romance dynamics lol
Posted By: Demoulius Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by Nicottia

[Linked Image]

Picture or the videos it come from always crack me up xD

But yeah that level of campiness is best avoided.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by Nicottia
I'll tell you a little secret: I've never got to play PnP D&D, never found a big enough group to do it with, so I've been watching a lot of youtube videos of people playing D&D, watched a bunch of twitch streams too. So, I know most of the lore by heart, and I know most of the D&D 5.5e rules.

A bit of a deviation, but I'm sure a group exists in your vicinity that would be happy to let you join, should that be something you want to try. Many/most RPG groups play D&D and there are more RPG groups out there than you might expect. I'd be very surprised if you could track down a group. Tabletop gaming is as much about friendship and socialising as gaming, and it is well worth looking into.
Posted By: Nicottia Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Picture or the videos it come from always crack me up xD

But yeah that level of campiness is best avoided.


Same, same, that's the main reason I used it. laugh


Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Nicottia
I'll tell you a little secret: I've never got to play PnP D&D, never found a big enough group to do it with, so I've been watching a lot of youtube videos of people playing D&D, watched a bunch of twitch streams too. So, I know most of the lore by heart, and I know most of the D&D 5.5e rules.

A bit of a deviation, but I'm sure a group exists in your vicinity that would be happy to let you join, should that be something you want to try. Many/most RPG groups play D&D and there are more RPG groups out there than you might expect. I'd be very surprised if you could track down a group. Tabletop gaming is as much about friendship and socialising as gaming, and it is well worth looking into.


Well, there is one D&D group close by in a video game store nearby, but the problem is, in our current times... you know, with the 'big bad virus' going around, such groups have been closed for the unforeseeable future, so I would have to look for such groups online... and while I might be quite vocal on the forums, irl I'm more on the 'reserved shy' side. wink
Posted By: Eddiar Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by Nicottia
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Picture or the videos it come from always crack me up xD

But yeah that level of campiness is best avoided.


Same, same, that's the main reason I used it. laugh


Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Nicottia
I'll tell you a little secret: I've never got to play PnP D&D, never found a big enough group to do it with, so I've been watching a lot of youtube videos of people playing D&D, watched a bunch of twitch streams too. So, I know most of the lore by heart, and I know most of the D&D 5.5e rules.

A bit of a deviation, but I'm sure a group exists in your vicinity that would be happy to let you join, should that be something you want to try. Many/most RPG groups play D&D and there are more RPG groups out there than you might expect. I'd be very surprised if you could track down a group. Tabletop gaming is as much about friendship and socialising as gaming, and it is well worth looking into.


Well, there is one D&D group close by in a video game store nearby, but the problem is, in our current times... you know, with the 'big bad virus' going around, such groups have been closed for the unforeseeable future, so I would have to look for such groups online... and while I might be quite vocal on the forums, irl I'm more on the 'reserved shy' side. wink


Ah who needs all that jazz?
When dungeon master mode comes along I am sure a lot of people would give it a try. I have never played pnp d&d neither but would definitely give it a try if Larian makes a cool dungeon master mode for BG3.

Who knows maybe people like you or I can finally find a group willing to play with us.
PS. I see your meme and raise you mine.
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Posted By: ControllerLyfe Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by pinklily
Some super judgy people in this thread. What's wrong with some fantasy fulfillment. Isn't that the point to video games... especially... fantasy ones...? I have a super happy marriage and almost exclusively play games that feature romance options. It's just what I like. Some people love guns and shooting and fps games are great for them. I don't but different strokes for different folks.


Same dude! its just a game! What should I go and romance people other than my marriage? lol If I'm paying money, and they are asking for feedback, imma give it! lol
Posted By: Nicottia Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 09:44 PM
Originally Posted by Eddiar

Ah who needs all that jazz?
When dungeon master mode comes along I am sure a lot of people would give it a try. I have never played pnp d&d neither but would definitely give it a try if Larian makes a cool dungeon master mode for BG3.

Who knows maybe people like you or I can finally find a group willing to play with us.

Agreed! laugh

Originally Posted by Eddiar

PS. I see your meme and raise you mine.
[Linked Image]


Haha I've seen this one on reddit! And I just made my own:

[Linked Image]

Basically BG3 romance in a nutshell. wink
Posted By: Eddiar Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by Nicottia

Haha I've seen this one on reddit! And I just made my own:


I MEAN! He did want to stab Tav when they first meet. He still wants to stab Tav just with a different weapon!
Posted By: Nicottia Re: This is not romance! - 23/10/20 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by Nicottia

Haha I've seen this one on reddit! And I just made my own:


I MEAN! He did want to stab Tav when they first meet. He still wants to stab Tav just with a different weapon!



Hahaha true enough. laugh

I mean, some of this writing is giving me Fifty Shades of Grey vibe... and I don't mean it as a compliment. I find it hilarious. wink
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