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They drop 50 meters and they are fine. I think it should be very damaging. Anyone else think so?
It should also be much harder to push people off ledges. The cartoony shoving and flying was funny at first but now it's just annoying.

I want more realistic shoving where the distance is much shorter and limited by Strength. Shoving anyone more than 5 feet should require 20+ Strength. Ogres and bigger should just fall prone.
50 meters is 15d6 or 45 damage, typically. Enemies have been taking 45 dmg off 20 meter drops.Its too much damage. Its D6 per 10 feet in D&D and its too easy to cheese your way out of encounters with a cough.
I haven't tried shoving enemies too much, so I don't know if the damage they take is too low. But the damage I take when shoved off is deadly.

As for the animation, yeah it's funny. But it is unrealistic. They're shoved, not fired out a canon.
I think damage is fine.
Happened to me that the first time I realized that pushing someone from high ground happened to my caster in the zhentarim lair....I was buffled that this was possible and started to do it too on my further games. And I think damage inflicted is fine, propably a little bit according to the rules at all, take only the vertikal distance and not the somewhat unrealistic ballistic curve into account.
The damage is a bit weird. A big spider falling 10 feet took 56 damage but a Duergar flying 100 feet far and 60 feet down took like 14 and got up right away.
Originally Posted by 1varangian
The damage is a bit weird. A big spider falling 10 feet took 56 damage but a Duergar flying 100 feet far and 60 feet down took like 14 and got up right away.


This is the best summary. Matriarch takes so much. I am wondering if they are using the "object size" rule for damage and they damage themselves more for being large or something
I think there are two different directions to take here. Make shove an action, maybe buff it a little in exchange OR nerf the distance you can shove enemies (scale with strength and enemy weight)
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by 1varangian
The damage is a bit weird. A big spider falling 10 feet took 56 damage but a Duergar flying 100 feet far and 60 feet down took like 14 and got up right away.


This is the best summary. Matriarch takes so much. I am wondering if they are using the "object size" rule for damage and they damage themselves more for being large or something


Well if you drop a mouse 10 foot, it'll get up and scurry off, drop and elephant 10 foot and it'll likey break everyone bone in its legs wink
Originally Posted by 1varangian
It should also be much harder to push people off ledges. The cartoony shoving and flying was funny at first but now it's just annoying.

I want more realistic shoving where the distance is much shorter and limited by Strength. Shoving anyone more than 5 feet should require 20+ Strength. Ogres and bigger should just fall prone.

I have a novel idea...

How about they use the 5e Core rules for shoving! wink

Originally Posted by Player's Handbook Page 195

SHOVING A CREATURE

Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee
attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or
push it away from you. If you're able to make multiple
attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces
one of them.

The target of your shove must be no more than one
size larger than you, and it must be within your reach.
You make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the
target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics)
check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you win
the contest, you either knock the target prone or push
it 5 feet away from you.


Originally Posted by Eireson

Well if you drop a mouse 10 foot, it'll get up and scurry off, drop and elephant 10 foot and it'll likey break everyone bone in its legs wink

I would imagine big spider being lighter and more resistant to falling than like an ogre of that size. Weight should be considered for fall damage and maybe give certain creatures fall damage resistance
Originally Posted by Hoarfrost
They drop 50 meters and they are fine. I think it should be very damaging. Anyone else think so?

Yes.

And I don't know if they're following 5e Core rules or not but here it is:

Originally Posted by Players Handbook. Page 183.

FALLING
A fall from a great height is one of the most common
hazards facing an adventurer.

At the end of a fall, a creature takes 1d6 bludgeoning
damage for every 10 feet it fell, to a maximum of 20d6.
The creature lands prone, unless it avoids taking
damage from the fall.


That doesn't scale to the laws of physics very well, choosing to use a more simplistic method for quicker resolution at the table-top.

Personally, I prefer the more realistic rule used in the AD&D Wilderness Survivor's Guide:

Originally Posted by Wilderness Survivor's Guide Page. Page 35.

Table 17: DAMAGE FROM FREE FALL OR SEVERE SLOPE

Distance of Fall Damage
10 feet 1d6
11-20 feet 3d6
21-30 feet 6d6
31-40 feet 10d6
41-50 feet 15d6
51 feet or more 20d6 (maximum)


But, that said, in a game based on the 5e rules, the AD&D Wilderness Survival Guide rule should be, at best, a Homebrew Rule. Perhaps enforced only on a higher difficulty setting in BG3.
Originally Posted by Full Bleed
Originally Posted by 1varangian
It should also be much harder to push people off ledges. The cartoony shoving and flying was funny at first but now it's just annoying.

I want more realistic shoving where the distance is much shorter and limited by Strength. Shoving anyone more than 5 feet should require 20+ Strength. Ogres and bigger should just fall prone.

I have a novel idea...

How about they use the 5e Core rules for shoving! wink

Originally Posted by Player's Handbook Page 195

SHOVING A CREATURE

Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee
attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or
push it away from you. If you're able to make multiple
attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces
one of them.

The target of your shove must be no more than one
size larger than you, and it must be within your reach.
You make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the
target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics)
check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you win
the contest, you either knock the target prone or push
it 5 feet away from you.



What a novel idea indeed +1
Since they padded monster HP by 2x to 3x they also need to increase the fall damage to monster by 2x to 3x to keep it in line.
Originally Posted by Full Bleed

I have a novel idea...

How about they use the 5e Core rules for shoving! wink

Originally Posted by Player's Handbook Page 195

SHOVING A CREATURE

Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee
attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or
push it away from you. If you're able to make multiple
attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces
one of them.

The target of your shove must be no more than one
size larger than you, and it must be within your reach.
You make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the
target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics)
check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you win
the contest, you either knock the target prone or push
it 5 feet away from you.




That would be great, yeah.
The game needs to be closer to 5e in general, there are so many unnecessary deviations from the core rules it's not even funny.
Uh....

Most of the times its a 1 shove kill for me?

Find some higher cliffs I guess? 😂
Originally Posted by Hoarfrost
They drop 50 meters and they are fine. I think it should be very damaging. Anyone else think so?


It's 1d6 damage per 10 ft D&D 5e RAW (and that rule goes back to about 1e, I believe) which is close to 3.333 meters, I believe. I'm estimating based on 1 meter being close to 1 yard.

Fall damage has always been rather forgiving in D&D (in comparison to what was likely from a real fall, at least.) So, this is working as intended pretty much.
Having shove replace an attack in part of an attack action would add another layer of menus to go through because once you select attack, you'd have to decide whether or not it was a shove or a normal attack for each attack in the action. This seems to be more trouble than it's worth for accuracy to the tabletop. And just having shove an Action doesn't feel right because that's not really how it functions on tabletop. Having it a bonus action is a decent compromise.

As to the distance, the BG3 shove does not truly knock people prone (there is an animation where they fall down, but the target immediately stands right back up, no prone condition applied.) If the tabletop rules were followed we're now looking at three layers of menus: Choose Attack - Shove or Attack? - Prone or 5ft? Again, doable, but irritating to do every time. Losing the functionality of the knock prone in exchange for what appears to be either a strength-based distance or else just a flat 10 ft distance....again fair compromise. (I have to go check this later...I'm suddenly not actually sure the shove distance is even 10 ft.)

We're also losing Grapple as an option....which again, the 5e variation of Grapple works pretty well, especially in combination with Shove (Shove Prone + Grapple is basically an armbar, they're now prone and have no speed with which to stand up), but in the computer game, I have a feeling it would be a bit irritating to deal with regularly.

So, losing the ability to shove multiple times in a round (one for each Attack), the ability to knock prone, and the ability to grapple, in exchange for shove 10ft as a bonus action feels fine. And it's not like this is going to make Pushing Attack, Repelling Blast, or Open Hand Monk less powerful....those powers allow you to do damage in addition to adding the shove...and Repelling Blast lets you do it at range.

So, I'm good with their alterations on shove. It's not quite the way my shove-happy table-top group does things, but we already have proven ourselves able to find cliffs, stairwells, bridges, and lava flows to shove people off of or into just fine. The compromise here is close to that.
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by 1varangian
The damage is a bit weird. A big spider falling 10 feet took 56 damage but a Duergar flying 100 feet far and 60 feet down took like 14 and got up right away.


This is the best summary. Matriarch takes so much. I am wondering if they are using the "object size" rule for damage and they damage themselves more for being large or something

They seem to be, and I approve, by the by. As long as larger creatures are harder to push (magic cheats and should be fine) then the system works as intended and makes sense. Elephants and mice and all that jazz, but in general the base game does not handle big creatures falling very well at all.

On the other hand, please don't let us deal damage by abusing this to orbital drop dragon corpses or something-or make it so that you can at least save to avoid falling creatures/objects. I don't want to kill the final boss by dropping a statue on him. It would be too lame.

Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Having shove replace an attack in part of an attack action would add another layer of menus to go through because once you select attack, you'd have to decide whether or not it was a shove or a normal attack for each attack in the action. This seems to be more trouble than it's worth for accuracy to the tabletop. And just having shove an Action doesn't feel right because that's not really how it functions on tabletop. Having it a bonus action is a decent compromise.

As to the distance, the BG3 shove does not truly knock people prone (there is an animation where they fall down, but the target immediately stands right back up, no prone condition applied.) If the tabletop rules were followed we're now looking at three layers of menus: Choose Attack - Shove or Attack? - Prone or 5ft? Again, doable, but irritating to do every time. Losing the functionality of the knock prone in exchange for what appears to be either a strength-based distance or else just a flat 10 ft distance....again fair compromise. (I have to go check this later...I'm suddenly not actually sure the shove distance is even 10 ft.)

We're also losing Grapple as an option....which again, the 5e variation of Grapple works pretty well, especially in combination with Shove (Shove Prone + Grapple is basically an armbar, they're now prone and have no speed with which to stand up), but in the computer game, I have a feeling it would be a bit irritating to deal with regularly.

So, losing the ability to shove multiple times in a round (one for each Attack), the ability to knock prone, and the ability to grapple, in exchange for shove 10ft as a bonus action feels fine. And it's not like this is going to make Pushing Attack, Repelling Blast, or Open Hand Monk less powerful....those powers allow you to do damage in addition to adding the shove...and Repelling Blast lets you do it at range.

So, I'm good with their alterations on shove. It's not quite the way my shove-happy table-top group does things, but we already have proven ourselves able to find cliffs, stairwells, bridges, and lava flows to shove people off of or into just fine. The compromise here is close to that.

Disagree on every point in the general and the specific.

First, menus are fine. I don't understand why people dislike them. If Larian isn't willing to go through the work of implementing them, they shoulden't have taken the project. DnD 5e has those options on purpose.

Second, Bonus action shove is the least troubling of the changes, but the distance is too long. I could actually accept the compromise if it was shorter, but don't see any need for it fundamentally.

Third, you have to choose between shove prone and shove back in 5e, which should be easy to implement. Heck, certain weapons can already knock prone.

Fourth, shoving by enemies is always worse than the player because next to no enemies have skills, so it's never been a truly effective tactic. It can work, but in situations where it is the optimal action the player is usually a wizard or something, so it makes sense to try it.

Fifth, we should be able to grapple.

So in summary, the compromises here shoulden't exist, they are implemented poorly, and there is no reason a stricter implementation is impossible.
I mean I can only speak for myself but every time I have shoved an enemy off a cliff they have died, so the damage seems fine.

I'd rather not have it as a bonus action. I don't want to be "forced" to shove for some extra damage.

I would rather it be a choice kinda like it is in D&D.
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