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More than a third of players rated it with the WORST possible rating.

One thing that I hate on most non faitfhful D&D adaptaions is the hp bloat. On DDO, I have a epic level warlock but play on epic levels where every mob require dozens of EB to die is so boring. I like kill & die fast. The unique thing worse than HP bloat is cooldowns.

"But missing is not fun"

Says who? Also, this mindset assumes that everyone is playing as a human fighter like an jrpg. On the stream that I watched before deciding to buy the game, most people was asking for warlock over and over and having to hit an enemy 20 times with eldritch blast is not fun or engaging. Is more easy to just nerf enemy AC on the beginning and give a "non increased hit chance" option. Do you know what eldritch blast is? IS like a force magical heavy crossbow. It needs to be deadly!!! I can get a high level priest of Lolth surviving dozen of shots from it. But low level goblins? Common low level spiders?

If Larian believes that bullet sponge enemies are fun, why not give the OPTION to play with P&P values or not?
It was an issue in OS2, to the point where there were multiple mods to "fix" it.

And they do it again. It's like they don't learn for some...reason. HP bloat was one of the biggest complains of OS2.
Only boss characters should Be 'bullet spondges" normal goblins should be quite fragile on dps to feel D&D goblins now it feels fighting Orcs on steroids. dosen't feel godly.
Originally Posted by AranSIRE
Only boss characters should Be 'bullet spondges" normal goblins should be quite fragile on dps to feel D&D goblins now it feels fighting Orcs on steroids. dosen't feel godly.


Bosses that are hard cuz they have a lot of defenses and interesting spells, good AC, like firkraag are much better than soaking bosses

Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
It was an issue in OS2, to the point where there were multiple mods to "fix" it.

And they do it again. It's like they don't learn for some...reason. HP bloat was one of the biggest complains of OS2.


And ... Was NEVER a issue on BG franchise.

An clay golem has 50 hp on BG2:SoA. Liches? 90 hp.
I fought today an goblin army on a massive battle goblins about 30 combatants few allies that are mostly useless. At lv 3 goblin archers that have 20 HP goblin shock troopers that have 50 two Giant spiders HP45 and an Ogre 60 hp and 2 spell casting shamans HP 35 and one Boss character That had about 50 hpAnd 4 goblin explosives that deal just Minor AoE at 20 HP Is this Ven a fair encounters by Amy design standard?
And your attacks deal mostly 1d10 \ 2d8 dmg. And few AoE barrels on field.
Originally Posted by AranSIRE
And your attacks deal mostly 1d10 \ 2d8 dmg. And few AoE barrels on field.


But almost never misses...

Originally Posted by AranSIRE
I fought today an goblin army on a massive battle goblins about 30 combatants few allies that are mostly useless. At lv 3 goblin archers that have 20 HP goblin shock troopers that have 50 two Giant spiders HP45 and an Ogre 60 hp and 2 spell casting shamans HP 35 and one Boss character That had about 50 hpAnd 4 goblin explosives that deal just Minor AoE at 20 HP Is this Ven a fair encounters by Amy design standard?


I had that fight too. Took hours...

And since I had't a rest before the battle, I had to rest and waste all resources in a single encounter...
Originally Posted by AranSIRE
I fought today an goblin army on a massive battle goblins about 30 combatants few allies that are mostly useless. At lv 3 goblin archers that have 20 HP goblin shock troopers that have 50 two Giant spiders HP45 and an Ogre 60 hp and 2 spell casting shamans HP 35 and one Boss character That had about 50 hpAnd 4 goblin explosives that deal just Minor AoE at 20 HP Is this Ven a fair encounters by Amy design standard?


its ok... just add more explosive barrels to deal with the bloat. Balance resolved!
To me it looks like it is to address the miss miss miss issue that gamers on another side will complain about it because it's a common complaint in TB games.
Originally Posted by Horrorscope
To me it looks like it is to address the miss miss miss issue that gamers on another side will complain about it because it's a common complaint in TB games.


Most likely yes. Nobody suggested any other solution, except "it's not in the rules so change it".
New results are ready 111 interviews

https://docdro.id/ZTA1llB

Originally Posted by Horrorscope
To me it looks like it is to address the miss miss miss issue that gamers on another side will complain about it because it's a common complaint in TB games.


And ... Instead of enemy armor deflecting crossbow shots, we have now enemies that at low level can sustain dozens of crossbow shots.

Vincke could give hidden +5 bonus to hit after you miss and the same bonus to the enemy. That way, if you have 50% chance to hit, you will NEVER miss 3 times in a roll. If you have 5%, after a couple of misses, you will gonna hit.

And asi've said, it RUINS spells, not only offensive spells but also spells like sleep which are life saving on earlier BG1 levels. And completely worthless on BG3.

Originally Posted by pill0ws
Originally Posted by AranSIRE
I fought today an goblin army on a massive battle goblins about 30 combatants few allies that are mostly useless. At lv 3 goblin archers that have 20 HP goblin shock troopers that have 50 two Giant spiders HP45 and an Ogre 60 hp and 2 spell casting shamans HP 35 and one Boss character That had about 50 hpAnd 4 goblin explosives that deal just Minor AoE at 20 HP Is this Ven a fair encounters by Amy design standard?


its ok... just add more explosive barrels to deal with the bloat. Balance resolved!


The point of D&D is to play with powerful heoric guys, not gimmicky stuff.
These piddly damage dealing spells, and a save for half damage no less, aren't good in an environment with no HP bloat or damaging surface mayhem. Now, they are are a waste of an action and a precious resource. They were designed in the way they were to work within a certain environment which makes then less of a waste of time. That environment no longer exists in BG III.
I agree it makes the game unplayable and its not following the rule set the game is supposedly designed for.. so why say its D&D 5 edition if its not even following the rules..
I too hate the hp bloat.

And elevation advantage and overuse of surfaces, throwables...
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
It was an issue in OS2, to the point where there were multiple mods to "fix" it.

And they do it again. It's like they don't learn for some...reason. HP bloat was one of the biggest complains of OS2.

This is my biggest fear.

That Larian are too set in their ways how things "are done" and can only do things one way. Missing 5 times in a row in NWN: EE still feels better than chipping away at 2000 armor in Divinity.

They are all about systems and player agency, to the point where they can no longer see what's too much. How to make the game world feel real and immersive.. they should take notes from old Bioware and Obsidian and their D&D games. They didn't need to remove misses from combat or add cartoony shoving and jumping or food healing.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat...lin_hpac_bloat_discussion_some_research/


Also, why create a new thread when you can just carry on the discussion in the original one? Multiplying small thread doesn't help the discussion, its just make people repeat the same argument over and over.
They have to nerf surfaces and firebolt creating fire even on a miss. Otherwise if they had less HP, you really would just want to burn everything always.

I feel like they have to make adjustable settings:
- Increased HP on/off
- Lowered AC on/off
- Other debated aspects that could just be toggled

There are clearly a lot of people who want things to play a specific way (more like 5e) and a lot of people who don't want to miss a bunch, but not necessarily wanting a strictly easier game. This seems exactly the game where players should be given a lot of control over how things work. Of course it's a nightmare to balance everything if everything can be adjusted, but let's say there are certain presets for the most popular settings and they test that each of those are enjoyable. Then, players can adjust it further to their liking
Originally Posted by denhonator

I feel like they have to make adjustable settings:
- Increased HP on/off
- Lowered AC on/off
- Other debated aspects that could just be toggled

If you start putting a toggle for every single feature in your system iit will quickly turn into a swamp of core design.
Originally Posted by Horrorscope
To me it looks like it is to address the miss miss miss issue that gamers on another side will complain about it because it's a common complaint in TB games.


As long as you miss one 80% hitchance after the other, there is an issue with that.
I have the feeling my chars hit more often, when the chance is 20% than 80%. But in total they hit much less than the hit chances would imply, as like the displayed chance is just wrong. That feels so weird.
Originally Posted by Tuco

If you start putting a toggle for every single feature in your system iit will quickly turn into a swamp of core design.


Perhaps. On the other hand, Larian doesn't want to be restricted by 5e rules while lots of fans just want a 5e experience. I feel like there is no perfect middle ground. I think they should allow some magnitude of adjustability. That, it will be up to mods.
Imo the hp bloat coupled with the gamey abilities make just about every fight in thr underdark play out as if you are fighting a bunch of superheroes.

For example: Hook horrors can do over 20meter jumps that do aoe damage, shockwaves, have multi attack. And you fight 4 of them. You can beat it. Thats not the point. The point is you arent fighting hook horrors.

I saw multi attacking minotaurs move 200 feet in 1 turn, a beholder fly an entire screen away and using rays he shouldnt have.

If you want to use the dnd license then use it, but dont dress monsters up as classic dnd monsters and give them all new abilities....
Originally Posted by Grantig
Originally Posted by Horrorscope
To me it looks like it is to address the miss miss miss issue that gamers on another side will complain about it because it's a common complaint in TB games.


As long as you miss one 80% hitchance after the other, there is an issue with that.
I have the feeling my chars hit more often, when the chance is 20% than 80%. But in total they hit much less than the hit chances would imply, as like the displayed chance is just wrong. That feels so weird.


I see some people claim real hit chance is lower than displayed. I haven't felt like that at all. I think you're either unlucky or notice misses more easily than hits. After all, a few people saying the RNG seems off out of everyone doesn't really indicate it's broken. Every game with heavy RNG elements have people claiming the odds are worse than shown
This change isn't the biggest deal to me, but the 'fix' they implement is just a bad choice. You break - once again - the balance of the system to achieve a 'feeling' without actually any meaning to it.

D&D doesn't have injury effects so a character is as effective with 1 hp as with 1000, meaning that this change actually just reduced the chance to kill off enemies in one round increasing the chance that you need to attack them several times. So instead of missing the first round and maybe hitting and killing it the next round because of their low hp value, now you need to manage to hit twice as your damage output isn't scaled to deal with bloated hp, while the enemy is going to be still as strong as it was before. Not seeing that this is going to cause balancing issues through out the whole game that is as complex as D&D in its mechanics is baffling.


I'm definitely in the camp of making more interesting animations for misses instead of just piling up stats. And yes, I'm aware its a lot more work for animations and code, but the result is definitely better than just giving game designers the sense that they 'fixed' someone else's system by introducing changes that break other things.
Originally Posted by denhonator
Originally Posted by Grantig
Originally Posted by Horrorscope
To me it looks like it is to address the miss miss miss issue that gamers on another side will complain about it because it's a common complaint in TB games.


As long as you miss one 80% hitchance after the other, there is an issue with that.
I have the feeling my chars hit more often, when the chance is 20% than 80%. But in total they hit much less than the hit chances would imply, as like the displayed chance is just wrong. That feels so weird.


I see some people claim real hit chance is lower than displayed. I haven't felt like that at all. I think you're either unlucky or notice misses more easily than hits. After all, a few people saying the RNG seems off out of everyone doesn't really indicate it's broken. Every game with heavy RNG elements have people claiming the odds are worse than shown

Yeah theres actually a eord for that. Dont recall which one but basicly our brains renember the times we fail far more then the times that we succeed.

I always point out the combat log at the buttom right. You can click on the arrow and it expands a log so you can see what dice results were rolled. If advantage or disadvantage was in play and if damage is reduced because if resistance its mentioned there as well!

That said ive had sessions at the table where I couldnt hit a lowly goblin if my life depended on it and I instant-gibbed the boss with a single hit. Im seeing the same zany randomness back in the game. If anything, its to realistic 😂
Originally Posted by 1varangian
That Larian are too set in their ways how things "are done" and can only do things one way. Missing 5 times in a row in NWN: EE still feels better than chipping away at 2000 armor in Divinity.


I strongly agree. Also, on NWN1 on OC chapter 1, when I got fireball, I OHKilled a lot of enemies with a single fireball cast. That was so dope. Those who survived the reflex save was ok.

Originally Posted by denhonator
(...)This seems exactly the game where players should be given a lot of control over how things work. Of course it's a nightmare to balance everything if everything can be adjusted, but let's say there are certain presets for the most popular settings and they test that each of those are enjoyable. Then, players can adjust it further to their liking


I honestly don't care. All masterpiece RPG's are unbalanced and in a low ac environment, some builds are better, in a high ac, others are better, everything in D&D is situational and will be with more options.

Originally Posted by denhonator
Originally Posted by Tuco

If you start putting a toggle for every single feature in your system iit will quickly turn into a swamp of core design.


Perhaps. On the other hand, Larian doesn't want to be restricted by 5e rules while lots of fans just want a 5e experience. I feel like there is no perfect middle ground. I think they should allow some magnitude of adjustability. That, it will be up to mods.


Yep. I can bet that the most popular mod when modding tools become available will fix this ludicrous HP bloat.


-------------------------


I only played 3e with a group once and having the DM describing how a crit managed to hit on enemy neck, he is bleeding a lot and heavily injured was so dope. on P&P, you know that a single crit can flip the table in your on in your enemy favor and make the combat fells more risky is a huge part of the appeal. I get that Larian needs to please Greeks(D&D fans) and Trojans(DOS2 fans) but making things optional will be a perfect middle ground. Being able to one shot an goblin small army when you get a AoE spell which was a trouble before was also part of the appeal of spell circles on almost every game with tier based spell progression.

Larian don't get it since they are too used to DOS2 and probably most people there din't even played BG1/2...
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by denhonator

I feel like they have to make adjustable settings:
- Increased HP on/off
- Lowered AC on/off
- Other debated aspects that could just be toggled

If you start putting a toggle for every single feature in your system iit will quickly turn into a swamp of core design.


It will probably be the case cause Larian stated they will add difficulty modes. So there will be story, classic and tactical. And in tactical, they will have lots of HPs and their normal AC I guess.

It's also very interesting to notice how disparate the combat feels for players. I for one have no issue with bloating and I find the combat already too easy. So I hope enemies will keep the HPs they have and will have better AC and better Attack bonuses in the highest difficulty settings.
I'd rather have multiple misses knowing this will get better at higher levels than this Carnival of Surface Retardedness and HP Bloat we have now.
Originally Posted by Nyanko

It's also very interesting to notice how disparate the combat feels for players. I for one have no issue with bloating and I find the combat already too easy. So I hope enemies will keep the HPs they have and will have better AC and better Attack bonuses in the highest difficulty settings.


HP bloat doesn't make the combat harder.

Just a TEDIUM!!!

That is the problem.

I've soloed BG2EE:SoA on Legacy of Bhaal and don't wanna play not cuz is too hard but cuz is a tedium. in many places.

Since Richard Garriott first RPG, part of the appeal of RPG's is power fantasy. I own a 175 lbf crossbow and love practice shooting with it. Now imagine the power to have a eldritch at will crossbow with unlimited ammo and no reload required, is even cooler than a IRL crossbow and that is Eldritch Blast(and BTW crossbow bolts are expensive, you can reuse a lot but eventually they break). If you make even low lv goblins able to sustain multiple shots of this eldritch crossbow, you kill the fantasy of having a cool power. Every game which tier based spell progression appeals to that power fantasy. It is not only for D&D games, Gothic, Ultima and tons of RPG's... And the situation will be worse when we get fireballs and AoE spells. They will fell weak if they can't kill low level goblins like they could in every D&D game.
Just to clarify: have we determined which monsters are affected by this HP bloat? From what I remember from my playthroughs is that Bugbears, Ogres , Minotaurs had same HP as in Monster Manual.

They have upped goblin's HP for sure. But.. are there more?

It would make this discussion more precise.
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
I'd rather have multiple misses knowing this will get better at higher levels than this Carnival of Surface Retardedness and HP Bloat we have now.


Definitely agree with that. Missing in combat often is part of the early levels after all, but I guess most people just want to feel like superheroes at level 1 unfortunately.
Originally Posted by Xantyr
Just to clarify: have we determined which monsters are affected by this HP bloat? From what I remember from my playthroughs is that Bugbears, Ogres , Minotaurs had same HP as in Monster Manual.

They have upped goblin's HP for sure. But.. are there more?

It would make this discussion more precise.


Spiders too. But considering how goblins are prevelant, "just goblins" is like "just 40% of enemies on act 1/EA".
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Nyanko

It's also very interesting to notice how disparate the combat feels for players. I for one have no issue with bloating and I find the combat already too easy. So I hope enemies will keep the HPs they have and will have better AC and better Attack bonuses in the highest difficulty settings.


HP bloat doesn't make the combat harder.

Just a TEDIUM!!!

That is the problem.

I've soloed BG2EE:SoA on Legacy of Bhaal and don't wanna play not cuz is too hard but cuz is a tedium. in many places.

Since Richard Garriott first RPG, part of the appeal of RPG's is power fantasy. I own a 175 lbf crossbow and love practice shooting with it. Now imagine the power to have a eldritch at will crossbow with unlimited ammo and no reload required, is even cooler than a IRL crossbow and that is Eldritch Blast(and BTW crossbow bolts are expensive, you can reuse a lot but eventually they break). If you make even low lv goblins able to sustain multiple shots of this eldritch crossbow, you kill the fantasy of having a cool power. Every game which tier based spell progression appeals to that power fantasy. It is not only for D&D games, Gothic, Ultima and tons of RPG's... And the situation will be worse when we get fireballs and AoE spells. They will fell weak if they can't kill low level goblins like they could in every D&D game.


Just check on the internet. Some players are soloing act 1 with no issue whatsoever. So I am wondering if it's more a matter of adapting to a new type of combat which has nothing to compare with BG1 & 2 or to have it easier because some players think they know how to beat the game cause they were doing good in previous installments.

It's easier I think for a developer to explain well its combat system rather than changing it into a list of impossible compromises because it tries to please a very broad type of gamers. And maybe Larian lacks explaining its game mechanics in that sense. Which in itself is not good.
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor

HP bloat doesn't make the combat harder.

Just a TEDIUM!!!


It does make it harder. Hard and tedius aren't mutually exclusive. Let's say some enemy is highly dangerous, but low HP. You could possibly one shot it and be fine.

Now the enemy has more HP and you can't one shot it, and you need to find a way to survive its turn because you can't kill it before that.

It's an additional challenge that requires strategy to beat. Doesn't mean it can't also feel tedius. Maybe it's not the best way to add difficulty. Maybe we should discuss alternative methods of increasing difficulty if more HP is something people don't wanna see.
Nice. It seems that even the word "unplayable" is a matter of opinion now.

I'm under the impression that enemies with more hp is in order to have less enemies on the battlefield. And I don't see why it's a problem
IIRC hookhorrors actually had a little less hp but they got some insame abilities they shouldnt have. They should have 75hp. They do normally have multi attack to attack twice though

Spectator should have 39 hp, is medium not large and are generally friendly creatures.

Bullete should have 94hp. Dont recall what it actually has ingame. Its aoe jump is actually a feature of the bulette but not of other creatures. It also has a ranged attack it shouldnt have.

Minotaurs have multi attack, a jump aoe attack and a shockwave ability they shouldnt have. Hp should be 76. Minotaurs do have a special charge but they need to move a certain distance before they can use that ability.

And before people acuse me of beeing a dnd purist or something, an extra ability here or there is fine. But do it in moderation. Giving Minotaurs a melee cleave for example would make sense and doesent sound to broken.

Giving them multi attack and an aoe jump gives them 3 attacks. One which can also knock you down if you fail a str test. They are balanced around having 1 attack with the greataxe or a running gore attack. Using their reckless ability to gain advantage but also granting it to attacks against them.

They hit hard but you csn hit them easily as well. Currently they not only hit hard, their movement is somany times more then ut should be thst its basicly a joke...
Originally Posted by Abits
Nice. It seems that even the word "unplayable" is a matter of opinion now.

I'm under the impression that enemies with more hp is in order to have less enemies on the battlefield. And I don't see why it's a problem


I have the feeling that people don't understand why this change exists.
Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.
You can achieve this by increasing their number or by giving them additional stats.



Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Abits
Nice. It seems that even the word "unplayable" is a matter of opinion now.

I'm under the impression that enemies with more hp is in order to have less enemies on the battlefield. And I don't see why it's a problem


I have the feeling that people don't understand why this change exists.
Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.
You can achieve this by increasing their number or by giving them additional stats.

Larian did both though. Thats why its an issue
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Abits
Nice. It seems that even the word "unplayable" is a matter of opinion now.

I'm under the impression that enemies with more hp is in order to have less enemies on the battlefield. And I don't see why it's a problem


I have the feeling that people don't understand why this change exists.
Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.
You can achieve this by increasing their number or by giving them additional stats.




Yeah that's what I said. I don't know much about designing turn based combat, but intuitively I think it is better the have few strong enemies than many week ones. What I can say for sure is that I enjoyed the battles with the strong few monsters much more than when I had to fight hordes of weaker ones
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Abits
Nice. It seems that even the word "unplayable" is a matter of opinion now.

I'm under the impression that enemies with more hp is in order to have less enemies on the battlefield. And I don't see why it's a problem


I have the feeling that people don't understand why this change exists.
Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.
You can achieve this by increasing their number or by giving them additional stats.

Larian did both though. Thats why its an issue


Not counting fighting with whole goblin's camp i didn't see any fighting too many enemies.


Was mostly talking about the gobbo camp but enemies there have ober twice the hp they should have, some have class lvls etc etc.

AND ontop of that theres tons of them.

The fight with gut where everyone in the throne room partipated in particular was a nasty one
I agree, the goblin camp is too much.
Originally Posted by Demoulius
IIRC hookhorrors actually had a little less hp but they got some insame abilities they shouldnt have. They should have 75hp. They do normally have multi attack to attack twice though

Spectator should have 39 hp, is medium not large and are generally friendly creatures.

Bullete should have 94hp. Dont recall what it actually has ingame. Its aoe jump is actually a feature of the bulette but not of other creatures. It also has a ranged attack it shouldnt have.

Minotaurs have multi attack, a jump aoe attack and a shockwave ability they shouldnt have. Hp should be 76. Minotaurs do have a special charge but they need to move a certain distance before they can use that ability.

And before people acuse me of beeing a dnd purist or something, an extra ability here or there is fine. But do it in moderation. Giving Minotaurs a melee cleave for example would make sense and doesent sound to broken.

Giving them multi attack and an aoe jump gives them 3 attacks. One which can also knock you down if you fail a str test. They are balanced around having 1 attack with the greataxe or a running gore attack. Using their reckless ability to gain advantage but also granting it to attacks against them.

They hit hard but you csn hit them easily as well. Currently they not only hit hard, their movement is somany times more then ut should be thst its basicly a joke...



Without these changes, fighting the minotaurs would be terribly easy, especially at 5lvl (Even now it's not difficult).
Some enemies need upgrades if they are to be challenging. Theoretically, you can give more difficult enemies, but this has limitations.
Originally Posted by denhonator
Now the enemy has more HP and you can't one shot it, and you need to find a way to survive its turn because you can't kill it before that.

It's an additional challenge that requires strategy to beat. Doesn't mean it can't also feel tedius. Maybe it's not the best way to add difficulty. Maybe we should discuss alternative methods of increasing difficulty if more HP is something people don't wanna see.


Except that on D&D there are a lot of strategies to avoid taking any damage. Mirror image for eg, is the most used illusion spell on BG1/2. On Legacy of Bhaal, a LOT of enemies can one shot you and has ridiculous hp bloat, so the game become more a tedium of attacking from long distance with summons, rest and save scumming and when you get Finger of Death or a vorpal weapon, praying to RNGoddess.

Here is my thread explaining the difficulty https://www.reddit.com/r/baldursgate/comments/hrxn15/my_experience_soloing_soa_lecagy_of_bhaal_as_a/

Originally Posted by Rhobar121
[
I have the feeling that people don't understand why this change exists.
Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.
You can achieve this by increasing their number or by giving them additional stats.


5e is ALREADY the edition with most HP bloat ever except 4e.

Sustaing some time and sustain DOZENS of arbalest shots are two different things.

The appeal of the combat on D&D is that an single critical can flip the table. With low ac/high hp rules this isn't truth.

Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Abits
Nice. It seems that even the word "unplayable" is a matter of opinion now.

I'm under the impression that enemies with more hp is in order to have less enemies on the battlefield. And I don't see why it's a problem


I have the feeling that people don't understand why this change exists.
Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.
You can achieve this by increasing their number or by giving them additional stats.




Yeah that's what I said. I don't know much about designing turn based combat, but intuitively I think it is better the have few strong enemies than many week ones. What I can say for sure is that I enjoyed the battles with the strong few monsters much more than when I had to fight hordes of weaker ones


We din't saw fireball, nor fighters with 2 attacks per round, on ToEE the best battles that I had was very long battles.

Originally Posted by Rhobar121


Without these changes, fighting the minotaurs would be terribly easy, especially at 5lvl (Even now it's not difficult).
Some enemies need upgrades if they are to be challenging. Theoretically, you can give more difficult enemies, but this has limitations.


Call it a high level minotaur and give cool abilities and powers, not just inflate his hp. That is boooring.
Not every fight needs to be amazing and challengine to the degree that you need to burn all your resources to win it.

The monsters as they are in the monster manual have the stats and abilities that they do for a reason. Deviating to much from them can drasticly change the DC rating that they should be.
Giving Larian until January...Otherwise going to Solasta. So much more enjoyable gameplay. It actually feels more like BG3.
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Demoulius
IIRC hookhorrors actually had a little less hp but they got some insame abilities they shouldnt have. They should have 75hp. They do normally have multi attack to attack twice though

Spectator should have 39 hp, is medium not large and are generally friendly creatures.

Bullete should have 94hp. Dont recall what it actually has ingame. Its aoe jump is actually a feature of the bulette but not of other creatures. It also has a ranged attack it shouldnt have.

Minotaurs have multi attack, a jump aoe attack and a shockwave ability they shouldnt have. Hp should be 76. Minotaurs do have a special charge but they need to move a certain distance before they can use that ability.

And before people acuse me of beeing a dnd purist or something, an extra ability here or there is fine. But do it in moderation. Giving Minotaurs a melee cleave for example would make sense and doesent sound to broken.

Giving them multi attack and an aoe jump gives them 3 attacks. One which can also knock you down if you fail a str test. They are balanced around having 1 attack with the greataxe or a running gore attack. Using their reckless ability to gain advantage but also granting it to attacks against them.

They hit hard but you csn hit them easily as well. Currently they not only hit hard, their movement is somany times more then ut should be thst its basicly a joke...



Without these changes, fighting the minotaurs would be terribly easy, especially at 5lvl (Even now it's not difficult).
Some enemies need upgrades if they are to be challenging. Theoretically, you can give more difficult enemies, but this has limitations.


Then add one or two minotaurs or use a more powerfull creature... Minotaurs are FP3...

+ Every fight doesn't have to be that challenging. This is a BG/FR/D&D RP game... Combats are not supposed to be the main feature and focus, even if there are important.
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor


Originally Posted by Rhobar121


Without these changes, fighting the minotaurs would be terribly easy, especially at 5lvl (Even now it's not difficult).
Some enemies need upgrades if they are to be challenging. Theoretically, you can give more difficult enemies, but this has limitations.


Call it a high level minotaur and give cool abilities and powers, not just inflate his hp. That is boooring.


They don't have more HP.


Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Giving Larian until January...Otherwise going to Solasta. So much more enjoyable gameplay. It actually feels more like BG3.


Already bought Solasta and BG3. Solasta is being much more fun and challenging. Sadly I can't play as a warlock there, but shock arcanist was a good homebrew subclass...
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Imo the hp bloat coupled with the gamey abilities make just about every fight in thr underdark play out as if you are fighting a bunch of superheroes.

For example: Hook horrors can do over 20meter jumps that do aoe damage, shockwaves, have multi attack. And you fight 4 of them. You can beat it. Thats not the point. The point is you arent fighting hook horrors.

I saw multi attacking minotaurs move 200 feet in 1 turn, a beholder fly an entire screen away and using rays he shouldnt have.

If you want to use the dnd license then use it, but dont dress monsters up as classic dnd monsters and give them all new abilities....


on top of all of this, Firebolt only has a 60ft distance, Eldritch blast only has a 60 feet distance. Every opponent in the game can close the gap on my Wizard within a single turn (and they tend to target him regardless of proximal enemies)
This reminds me of TTK (time to kill) arguments with first person shooters lol. Like your warzone vs apex legends debate, which boils down to some people just like to have to dump 180 rounds into every single enemy they come across just to break shields let alone kill where as others enjoy weapons working closer to reality in that 60 rounds can kill 3-4 guys as long as your accurate. This debate is no different in that its reached an impass of personal.preference. personally I would rather see difficult balanced through AC, accuracy, and damage than hitpoints exclusively.
I'm absolutely not a GM and I'm not a D&D tabletop player but I try to understand things.
Let me know if I'm wrong.

I'll consider a character level 3 with a basic 1D8 weapon (average damage 4), an attack roll modifier of +3, a proficiency bonus to weapon +2.

D&D Goblins : 15 AC with shield / 7 HP

Modifier + Proficiency = 5
Dice roll needed : 10 (50%)
Hit to kill : 2

Average attack to hit and kill : 4
Total turn to kill one goblin : 1


Larian's Goblin : 10 AC with shield / 12 HP

Modifier + Proficiency = 5
Dice roll needed : 5 (75%)
Hit to kill : 3

Average attack to hit and kill : 4
Total turn to kill one goblin : 1

It looks like actually it changes absolutely nothing about goblins.
So what's the point of changing these stats except you see "75%" instead of "50%" ?

Wouldn't it be easier to stick a little bit more to the rules, and just add an additionnal +1, +2 or even +3 bonus to the attack roll if you're higher instead of an advantage (+1 means +5% chance of hit, +2 means +10%, +3 means +15%).
Or maybe just decrease the AC but not changing the HP so combats are faster ?
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Demoulius
IIRC hookhorrors actually had a little less hp but they got some insame abilities they shouldnt have. They should have 75hp. They do normally have multi attack to attack twice though

Spectator should have 39 hp, is medium not large and are generally friendly creatures.

Bullete should have 94hp. Dont recall what it actually has ingame. Its aoe jump is actually a feature of the bulette but not of other creatures. It also has a ranged attack it shouldnt have.

Minotaurs have multi attack, a jump aoe attack and a shockwave ability they shouldnt have. Hp should be 76. Minotaurs do have a special charge but they need to move a certain distance before they can use that ability.

And before people acuse me of beeing a dnd purist or something, an extra ability here or there is fine. But do it in moderation. Giving Minotaurs a melee cleave for example would make sense and doesent sound to broken.

Giving them multi attack and an aoe jump gives them 3 attacks. One which can also knock you down if you fail a str test. They are balanced around having 1 attack with the greataxe or a running gore attack. Using their reckless ability to gain advantage but also granting it to attacks against them.

They hit hard but you csn hit them easily as well. Currently they not only hit hard, their movement is somany times more then ut should be thst its basicly a joke...



Without these changes, fighting the minotaurs would be terribly easy, especially at 5lvl (Even now it's not difficult).
Some enemies need upgrades if they are to be challenging. Theoretically, you can give more difficult enemies, but this has limitations.



Maybe if every character in the game didnt have bonus action disengage/hide.... they wouldnt be so easy that the devs need to buff the crap out of them with novel mechanics that they never had in 5e. This is the slippery slope that their action economy has created.
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I'm absolutely not a GM and I'm not a D&D tabletop player but I try to understand things.
Let me know if I'm wrong.

I'll consider a character level 3 with a basic 1D8 weapon (average damage 4), an attack roll modifier of +3, a proficiency bonus to weapon +2.

D&D Goblins : 15 AC with shield / 7 HP

Modifier + Proficiency = 5
Dice roll needed : 10 (50%)
Hit to kill : 2

Average attack to hit and kill : 4
Total turn to kill one goblin : 1


Larian's Goblin : 10 AC with shield / 12 HP

Modifier + Proficiency = 5
Dice roll needed : 5 (75%)
Hit to kill : 3

Average attack to hit and kill : 4
Total turn to kill one goblin : 1

It looks like actually it changes absolutely nothing about goblins.
So what's the point of changing these stats except you see "75%" instead of "50%" ?

Wouldn't it be easier to stick a little bit more to the rules, and just add an additionnal +1, +2 or even +3 bonus to the attack roll if you're higher instead of an advantage (+1 means +5% chance of hit, +2 means +10%, +3 means +15%).
Or maybe just decrease the AC but not changing the HP so combats are faster ?


What part of spells din't you got?

Spells doesn't target enemy AC, so a firebolt deals less damage than a heavy crossbow but will hit more often. With that nerf, the cantrip will ALWAYS be worse. Sleep? such life saving spell on BG1 is worthless on BG3.

You are assuming that everyone will be playing as a human fighter like in a JRPG when casters are very popular on D&D and always was. And even for fighters, that hit more often, deals less damage KILLS all combat tension.
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I'm absolutely not a GM and I'm not a D&D tabletop player but I try to understand things.
Let me know if I'm wrong.

I'll consider a character level 3 with a basic 1D8 weapon (average damage 4), an attack roll modifier of +3, a proficiency bonus to weapon +2.

D&D Goblins : 15 AC with shield / 7 HP

Modifier + Proficiency = 5
Dice roll needed : 10 (50%)
Hit to kill : 2

Average attack to hit and kill : 4
Total turn to kill one goblin : 1


Larian's Goblin : 10 AC with shield / 12 HP

Modifier + Proficiency = 5
Dice roll needed : 5 (75%)
Hit to kill : 3

Average attack to hit and kill : 4
Total turn to kill one goblin : 1

It looks like actually it changes absolutely nothing about goblins.
So what's the point of changing these stats except you see "75%" instead of "50%" ?

Wouldn't it be easier to stick a little bit more to the rules, and just add an additionnal +1, +2 or even +3 bonus to the attack roll if you're higher instead of an advantage (+1 means +5% chance of hit, +2 means +10%, +3 means +15%).
Or maybe just decrease the AC but not changing the HP so combats are faster ?


What part of spells din't you got?

Spells doesn't target enemy AC, so a firebolt deals less damage than a heavy crossbow but will hit more often. With that nerf, the cantrip will ALWAYS be worse. Sleep? such life saving spell on BG1 is worthless on BG3.

You are assuming that everyone will be playing as a human fighter like in a JRPG when casters are very popular on D&D and always was. And even for fighters, that hit more often, deals less damage KILLS all combat tension.



Hes also taking the most modest example for hius math. Do this with the Goblins that have 20hp and up
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I'm absolutely not a GM and I'm not a D&D tabletop player but I try to understand things.
Let me know if I'm wrong.

I'll consider a character level 3 with a basic 1D8 weapon (average damage 4), an attack roll modifier of +3, a proficiency bonus to weapon +2.

D&D Goblins : 15 AC with shield / 7 HP

Modifier + Proficiency = 5
Dice roll needed : 10 (50%)
Hit to kill : 2

Average attack to hit and kill : 4
Total turn to kill one goblin : 1


Larian's Goblin : 10 AC with shield / 12 HP

Modifier + Proficiency = 5
Dice roll needed : 5 (75%)
Hit to kill : 3

Average attack to hit and kill : 4
Total turn to kill one goblin : 1

It looks like actually it changes absolutely nothing about goblins.
So what's the point of changing these stats except you see "75%" instead of "50%" ?

Wouldn't it be easier to stick a little bit more to the rules, and just add an additionnal +1, +2 or even +3 bonus to the attack roll if you're higher instead of an advantage (+1 means +5% chance of hit, +2 means +10%, +3 means +15%).
Or maybe just decrease the AC but not changing the HP so combats are faster ?


What part of spells din't you got?

Spells doesn't target enemy AC, so a firebolt deals less damage than a heavy crossbow but will hit more often. With that nerf, the cantrip will ALWAYS be worse. Sleep? such life saving spell on BG1 is worthless on BG3.

You are assuming that everyone will be playing as a human fighter like in a JRPG when casters are very popular on D&D and always was. And even for fighters, that hit more often, deals less damage KILLS all combat tension.


Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that these changes have more consequences, especially on spells like i.e sleep.
It was just an exemple for me to try to understand WHY they changed... And my conclusion is that it has USELESS consequences exept that we see "75%" instead of "50%". I never said it's good or the only things to care about.

+ tell me again if I'm wrong, but I think many spells also confronts the target's AC in 5e.
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I'm absolutely not a GM and I'm not a D&D tabletop player but I try to understand things.
Let me know if I'm wrong.

I'll consider a character level 3 with a basic 1D8 weapon (average damage 4), an attack roll modifier of +3, a proficiency bonus to weapon +2.

D&D Goblins : 15 AC with shield / 7 HP

Modifier + Proficiency = 5
Dice roll needed : 10 (50%)
Hit to kill : 2

Average attack to hit and kill : 4
Total turn to kill one goblin : 1


Larian's Goblin : 10 AC with shield / 12 HP

Modifier + Proficiency = 5
Dice roll needed : 5 (75%)
Hit to kill : 3

Average attack to hit and kill : 4
Total turn to kill one goblin : 1

It looks like actually it changes absolutely nothing about goblins.
So what's the point of changing these stats except you see "75%" instead of "50%" ?

Wouldn't it be easier to stick a little bit more to the rules, and just add an additionnal +1, +2 or even +3 bonus to the attack roll if you're higher instead of an advantage (+1 means +5% chance of hit, +2 means +10%, +3 means +15%).
Or maybe just decrease the AC but not changing the HP so combats are faster ?


Except total HP makes a difference in the effectiveness of various spells like sleep. The bigger point being made by HP bloat isn't actually time to kill but all the ripple effects and subsequent changes to other systems that have to happen but upset the balance of how these mechanics should be translated to the game.
Same answer as the previous one, we probably wrote at the same time smile
I'm just trying to think with Larian's eyes with easy exemples.

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that these changes have more consequences, especially on spells like i.e sleep.
It was just an exemple for me to try to understand WHY they changed... And my conclusion is that it has USELESS consequences exept that we see "75%" instead of "50%". I never said it's good or the only things to care about
+ tell me again if I'm wrong, but I think many spells also confronts the target's AC in 5e..


Originally Posted by pill0ws
Hes also taking the most modest example for hius math. Do this with the Goblins that have 20hp and up

Yes, it becomes worse and worse as soon as they have more HP, both to kill them and many spells efficiency.
Originally Posted by WinterbornGuard

Except total HP makes a difference in the effectiveness of various spells like sleep. The bigger point being made by HP bloat isn't actually time to kill but all the ripple effects and subsequent changes to other systems that have to happen but upset the balance of how these mechanics should be translated to the game.



This is the slippery slope I am talking about. Every homebrew rule that Larian is running is going to have secondary and tertiary affects. A nerf to AC is a fat buff to Sharpshooter/Great Weapon Master. Suddenly now you are going to need to ensure the HP is scaled up enough that it's not a trivial tradeoff because these are popular choices and a missed attack really is supposed to be the tradeoff for the fat damage they give you.
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I'm absolutely not a GM and I'm not a D&D tabletop player but I try to understand things.
Let me know if I'm wrong.

I'll consider a character level 3 with a basic 1D8 weapon (average damage 4), an attack roll modifier of +3, a proficiency bonus to weapon +2.

D&D Goblins : 15 AC with shield / 7 HP

Modifier + Proficiency = 5
Dice roll needed : 10 (50%)
Hit to kill : 2

Average attack to hit and kill : 4
Total turn to kill one goblin : 1


Larian's Goblin : 10 AC with shield / 12 HP

Modifier + Proficiency = 5
Dice roll needed : 5 (75%)
Hit to kill : 3

Average attack to hit and kill : 4
Total turn to kill one goblin : 1

It looks like actually it changes absolutely nothing about goblins.
So what's the point of changing these stats except you see "75%" instead of "50%" ?

Wouldn't it be easier to stick a little bit more to the rules, and just add an additionnal +1, +2 or even +3 bonus to the attack roll if you're higher instead of an advantage (+1 means +5% chance of hit, +2 means +10%, +3 means +15%).
Or maybe just decrease the AC but not changing the HP so combats are faster ?

Your math is inaccurate. That warrior with that attack roll modifier would also get +3 to his damage rolls meaning his avatage damge wouldnt be 4 but 7. Not to mention that dnd is a game about dice. You will get high rolls, you will get low rolls. For a fighter for that weapon however (D8 damage die) 4 and up (so half of the possible die results) instantly kill that goblin. Also goblins have leather armor alongside their shields with a dex mod of 2 gives them that AC15. The ones with bows would be easier to hit because of the lack of a shield.

Now try to 1 hit the Larians Goblins with the same fighter. Even with a crit its almost impossible to 1 shot them. And the few times that it does happen mean that you cant rely on it beeing an effective tactic.

Also some other lvl 1 spells that easily CAN kill Goblins in 1 hit: magic missle, burning hands (3d6 in a cone, auto hits but dex save for half), Eldritch blast (with the bonus from your casting mod mind you. which ive seen most warlocks take), Chromatic orb are some easy examples that could do it no problem. But even CANTRIPS can 1 shot Goblins under normal circumstances in pnp dnd.

In bg3 atm though? Non of that applies. Goblins are a threat because of their numbers and because they may ambush unsuspecting targets. Here though theyre also a threat because you cant kill them fast enough and because they still have those numbers that they would normally have. The spellcasters added ontop of that throw even more mud in the water. They should be quite rare for goblins but most groups in the camp have at least 1 if not more spell casters amongst their numbers.
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Abits
Nice. It seems that even the word "unplayable" is a matter of opinion now.

I'm under the impression that enemies with more hp is in order to have less enemies on the battlefield. And I don't see why it's a problem


I have the feeling that people don't understand why this change exists.
Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.
You can achieve this by increasing their number or by giving them additional stats.


Or they could have left their AC and HP values untouched. Novel idea, I know....
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Abits
Nice. It seems that even the word "unplayable" is a matter of opinion now.

I'm under the impression that enemies with more hp is in order to have less enemies on the battlefield. And I don't see why it's a problem


I have the feeling that people don't understand why this change exists.
Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.
You can achieve this by increasing their number or by giving them additional stats.



Why trash mobs have to be able to withstand in a fight for some time? I enjoy blow them away with one fireball. I have the feeling that you don’t understand what trash mobs are, and why they exists.
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I'm absolutely not a GM and I'm not a D&D tabletop player but I try to understand things.
Let me know if I'm wrong.

I'll consider a character level 3 with a basic 1D8 weapon (average damage 4), an attack roll modifier of +3, a proficiency bonus to weapon +2.

D&D Goblins : 15 AC with shield / 7 HP

Modifier + Proficiency = 5
Dice roll needed : 10 (50%)
Hit to kill : 2

Average attack to hit and kill : 4
Total turn to kill one goblin : 1


Larian's Goblin : 10 AC with shield / 12 HP

Modifier + Proficiency = 5
Dice roll needed : 5 (75%)
Hit to kill : 3

Average attack to hit and kill : 4
Total turn to kill one goblin : 1

It looks like actually it changes absolutely nothing about goblins.
So what's the point of changing these stats except you see "75%" instead of "50%" ?

Wouldn't it be easier to stick a little bit more to the rules, and just add an additionnal +1, +2 or even +3 bonus to the attack roll if you're higher instead of an advantage (+1 means +5% chance of hit, +2 means +10%, +3 means +15%).
Or maybe just decrease the AC but not changing the HP so combats are faster ?

Your math is inaccurate. That warrior with that attack roll modifier would also get +3 to his damage rolls meaning his avatage damge wouldnt be 4 but 7. Not to mention that dnd is a game about dice. You will get high rolls, you will get low rolls. For a fighter for that weapon however (D8 damage die) 4 and up (so half of the possible die results) instantly kill that goblin. Also goblins have leather armor alongside their shields with a dex mod of 2 gives them that AC15. The ones with bows would be easier to hit because of the lack of a shield.

Now try to 1 hit the Larians Goblins with the same fighter. Even with a crit its almost impossible to 1 shot them. And the few times that it does happen mean that you cant rely on it beeing an effective tactic.

Also some other lvl 1 spells that easily CAN kill Goblins in 1 hit: magic missle, burning hands (3d6 in a cone, auto hits but dex save for half), Eldritch blast (with the bonus from your casting mod mind you. which ive seen most warlocks take), Chromatic orb are some easy examples that could do it no problem. But even CANTRIPS can 1 shot Goblins under normal circumstances in pnp dnd.

In bg3 atm though? Non of that applies. Goblins are a threat because of their numbers and because they may ambush unsuspecting targets. Here though theyre also a threat because you cant kill them fast enough and because they still have those numbers that they would normally have. The spellcasters added ontop of that throw even more mud in the water. They should be quite rare for goblins but most groups in the camp have at least 1 if not more spell casters amongst their numbers.


Oh you're right, I forget that the modifier also apply to damage !
I'll do it again and try considering spells because even if I don't know everything about D&D, I have the same feelings about how negative what they did is bad for the game.

I'll continue to try to understand why they did that because that argument seems really bad to me :
Originally Posted by Rhobar121

I have the feeling that people don't understand why this change exists.
Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.
You can achieve this by increasing their number or by giving them additional stats.
Originally Posted by Kendaric
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Abits
Nice. It seems that even the word "unplayable" is a matter of opinion now.

I'm under the impression that enemies with more hp is in order to have less enemies on the battlefield. And I don't see why it's a problem


I have the feeling that people don't understand why this change exists.
Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.
You can achieve this by increasing their number or by giving them additional stats.


Or they could have left their AC and HP values untouched. Novel idea, I know....

Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.

What?

These are goblins, not Umber hulks! Their strength comes from their numbers and their tactics, not their healthpools!
Originally Posted by dunehunter
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Abits
Nice. It seems that even the word "unplayable" is a matter of opinion now.

I'm under the impression that enemies with more hp is in order to have less enemies on the battlefield. And I don't see why it's a problem


I have the feeling that people don't understand why this change exists.
Opponents must be able to withstand in the fight for some time.
You can achieve this by increasing their number or by giving them additional stats.



Why trash mobs have to be able to withstand in a fight for some time? I enjoy blow them away with one fireball. I have the feeling that you don’t understand what trash mobs are, and why they exists.


There should be no such thing as tash mobs in a turn-based game. Fighting them is pointless if there aren't enough of them to be dangerous.
Maybe some people like boring fights, but I don't.


Originally Posted by Demoulius


These are goblins, not Umber hulks! Their strength comes from their numbers and their tactics, not their healthpools!


Yep. Goblins should be enemies hard to hit, with greater number and coiward tactics, not M1 Abrams
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Demoulius


These are goblins, not Umber hulks! Their strength comes from their numbers and their tactics, not their healthpools!


Yep. Goblins should be enemies hard to hit, with greater number and coiward tactics, not M1 Abrams


You cannot fight multiple goblins at once if you don't want the turns to last forever.
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Demoulius


These are goblins, not Umber hulks! Their strength comes from their numbers and their tactics, not their healthpools!


Yep. Goblins should be enemies hard to hit, with greater number and coiward tactics, not M1 Abrams


You cannot fight multiple goblins at once if you don't want the turns to last forever.


Yes, you can. Burning hands for eg can kill a couple of then.
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Just check on the internet. Some players are soloing act 1 with no issue whatsoever.


They are using exploit and meta-knowledge to do that. Everyone can solo Act 1 with barrel cheese and abusing surface in general. Everyone can abuse shove. Everyone can summon the Imp familiar with good attack and bonus action invisibility on demand or the spider familiar with 33 hp too. Or abuse the stealth mechanic which is entirely line of sight based so as long as you aren't in the red cone you don't even need to be good at sneaking.

Nobody can solo the spider Matriarch with 0 prior knowledge. She can one-shot a level 4 character with her range attack and you'll trigger the fight before you see her unless you stealth rolls are good...and you can't one-shot her with stealth attacks with her amount of HP. She's only worth 20 XP, killing level 3 goblins is more rewarding too...

You can also do the entire critical path (i.e. get to the boat in the Underdark) by fighting exactly 0 enemies outside maybe a Bulette encounter where she runs away after a round. Doesn't require stealth, just abusing the tadpole conversation. I've done it yesterday, but took the time to kill the 3 leaders because why not.

People are right in saying the game isn't hard despite the HP bloat, even without all the cheese, but the reasons for that are:
1. the AI taking dumb decisions (focusing on downed party members...lol).
2. Long resting after every after fight, which appears to be a design decision with how camp conversations triggers.
3. The amount of scrolls, magical arrows, magical items you can find and the fact that everyone can cast spells from scrolls. A level 5 character in a high magic setting in 5e should only have 1 uncommon magical item. You get enough to fill all equipment slots in the EA except cloak as there are no cloak.
4. Meta-knowledge, going blindly into a fight is different than doing it for a second time.

1. Can be improve in development.
2. This really need to be reworked. You shouldn't be able to go the camp when there are potential enemies nearby.
3. That one is not going to change, as video gamers need their sparkling equipment and they need it fast otherwise they get bored.
4. Not something the devs can fix really.
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Demoulius


These are goblins, not Umber hulks! Their strength comes from their numbers and their tactics, not their healthpools!


Yep. Goblins should be enemies hard to hit, with greater number and coiward tactics, not M1 Abrams


You cannot fight multiple goblins at once if you don't want the turns to last forever.


Yes, you can. Burning hands for eg can kill a couple of then.


Ok. What if you don't have the appropriate class or spell slots.
Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Just check on the internet. Some players are soloing act 1 with no issue whatsoever.


They are using exploit and meta-knowledge to do that. Everyone can solo Act 1 with barrel cheese and abusing surface in general. Everyone can abuse shove. Everyone can summon the Imp familiar with good attack and bonus action invisibility on demand or the spider familiar with 33 hp too. Or abuse the stealth mechanic which is entirely line of sight based so as long as you aren't in the red cone you don't even need to be good at sneaking.

Nobody can solo the spider Matriarch with 0 prior knowledge. She can one-shot a level 4 character with her range attack and you'll trigger the fight before you see her unless you stealth rolls are good...and you can't one-shot her with stealth attacks with her amount of HP. She's only worth 20 XP, killing level 3 goblins is more rewarding too...

You can also do the entire critical path (i.e. get to the boat in the Underdark) by fighting exactly 0 enemies outside maybe a Bulette encounter where she runs away after a round. Doesn't require stealth, just abusing the tadpole conversation. I've done it yesterday, but took the time to kill the 3 leaders because why not.

People are right in saying the game isn't hard despite the HP bloat, even without all the cheese, but the reasons for that are:
1. the AI taking dumb decisions (focusing on downed party members...lol).
2. Long resting after every after fight, which appears to be a design decision with how camp conversations triggers.
3. The amount of scrolls, magical arrows, magical items you can find and the fact that everyone can cast spells from scrolls. A level 5 character in a high magic setting in 5e should only have 1 uncommon magical item. You get enough to fill all equipment slots in the EA except cloak as there are no cloak.
4. Meta-knowledge, going blindly into a fight is different than doing it for a second time.

1. Can be improve in development.
2. This really need to be reworked. You shouldn't be able to go the camp when there are potential enemies nearby.
3. That one is not going to change, as video gamers need their sparkling equipment and they need it fast otherwise they get bored.
4. Not something the devs can fix really.

1: isent actually that much of a dumb move considering we can otherwise res them in a fight. Making sure they stay down CAN be a good move, although not always.
2: That needs to change. Agreed.
3: The original baldurs gate handled this very well. Unless you had some meta knowledge about 2 rings it would take a decent amount of time before you stumbled upon magical items.
4: Agreed.

Not all gear that you find has to be magical btw. Or only have advantages. A great move would be if you found some non magical items that just behaved a little differently or allowed you to use them in a different manner. Making a sweeping attack with them for example or allowing you to cripple an enemy with a succesfull attack. Im just spitballing ideas but it could work and be implemented nicely.
Originally Posted by Rhobar121


Ok. What if you don't have the appropriate class or spell slots.


Then is your fault. Running out of resources or trying to play a high magical fantasy game without a caster is not a good idea.
I think we should wait the full release, in OS you have four different difficulty levels, in almost all the games I play there's a choice on how difficult the game should be.

I don't know if that is doable due to the fact that BG3 relay on D&D rules, still I think they would do a difficulty choose menu (unless they are going to risk lots of players quiting the game because they're not interested on spend time searching a strategy or that get tired fi they line up a seires of natural 1s ).

To me is catchy the fact that I have to find the smart use of barrels, altitude, spells ^^ (but sometimes I really want to throw the pc out of the windows laugh laugh )
Originally Posted by Bufotenina
I think we should wait the full release, in OS you have four different difficulty levels, in almost all the games I play there's a choice on how difficult the game should be.

I don't know if that is doable due to the fact that BG3 relay on D&D rules, still I think they would do a difficulty choose menu (unless they are going to risk lots of players quiting the game because they're not interested on spend time searching a strategy or that get tired fi they line up a seires of natural 1s ).

To me is catchy the fact that I have to find the smart use of barrels, altitude, spells ^^ (but sometimes I really want to throw the pc out of the windows laugh laugh )



Mentioning future difficulties (you did not say this btw) what is with this notion that increased HP is the only way to balance difficulty level?? So many other ways to make encounters harder that does not even need to scale HP in any way. In my mind HP is the lazy way to increase difficulty of an encounter as there are way more compelling ways to do so that keep encounter fast and lethal without sacrificing tactics
Originally Posted by Bufotenina
I think we should wait the full release, in OS you have four different difficulty levels, in almost all the games I play there's a choice on how difficult the game should be.


Saying "we should wait" is kinda weird when it's EA it's important to discuss now and affect the development.

We can assume there will be difficulty levels. But since currently there are not, we should assume this is standard, baseline difficulty. With this in mind, you could argue "HP bloat should only exist in a harder difficulty setting", for example
I mean, hp beeing used to make the game more difficult works. Even if its a rather lazy way of making the combat more difficult.

Id prefer if they instead 'spiked' damage rolls and initiaitve in thr npc's favour on higher difficulties. Maybe give them an extra point of ac or something? But just more hp is abit... boring
Originally Posted by Demoulius
I mean, hp beeing used to make the game more difficult works. Even if its a rather lazy way of making the combat more difficult.

Id prefer if they instead 'spiked' damage rolls and initiaitve in thr npc's favour on higher difficulties. Maybe give them an extra point of ac or something? But just more hp is abit... boring


+1
Glad to see this thread getting as long as it is -- let's hope Larian is taking notice.

For me the thing I don't like about HP bloat is the way it nerfs casters. Sacred flame should be just as strong as firebolt but it's not because you have a much better chance at making to hit roll than having the enemy fail its savings roll. Unless you increase the power of sleep and fireball to make up for bloated HP those spells are effectively nerfed meaning the caster can no longer serve as crowd control.
Originally Posted by denhonator
Originally Posted by Bufotenina
I think we should wait the full release, in OS you have four different difficulty levels, in almost all the games I play there's a choice on how difficult the game should be.


Saying "we should wait" is kinda weird when it's EA it's important to discuss now and affect the development.

We can assume there will be difficulty levels. But since currently there are not, we should assume this is standard, baseline difficulty. With this in mind, you could argue "HP bloat should only exist in a harder difficulty setting", for example


Exactly this, first it was a meme of oh is EA, ignore it... But in seriousness, is EA and they are asking for feedback and you have to take all the criticism. I suggest everyone to keep posting their feedback of the EA, and don't let other tell you "just wait" or "get over it" ....
Originally Posted by Demoulius
I mean, hp beeing used to make the game more difficult works. Even if its a rather lazy way of making the combat more difficult.


HP inflation makes the game X more hard and X³ more boring.



Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Glad to see this thread getting as long as it is -- let's hope Larian is taking notice.

For me the thing I don't like about HP bloat is the way it nerfs casters. Sacred flame should be just as strong as firebolt but it's not because you have a much better chance at making to hit roll than having the enemy fail its savings roll. Unless you increase the power of sleep and fireball to make up for bloated HP those spells are effectively nerfed meaning the caster can no longer serve as crowd control.


Yep. Lets hope that someone in Larian is taking feedback into account.

And as I've said months ago. One change on AC/hp will need to lead to a CHAIN REACTION OF CHANGES If enemies has 2x hp but half miss change, you din't just messed with the marital combat making the game less lethal but with equal pacing. You made all spells which deals damage or scale with hp half as effective.
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Just check on the internet. Some players are soloing act 1 with no issue whatsoever.


They are using exploit and meta-knowledge to do that. Everyone can solo Act 1 with barrel cheese and abusing surface in general. Everyone can abuse shove. Everyone can summon the Imp familiar with good attack and bonus action invisibility on demand or the spider familiar with 33 hp too. Or abuse the stealth mechanic which is entirely line of sight based so as long as you aren't in the red cone you don't even need to be good at sneaking.

Nobody can solo the spider Matriarch with 0 prior knowledge. She can one-shot a level 4 character with her range attack and you'll trigger the fight before you see her unless you stealth rolls are good...and you can't one-shot her with stealth attacks with her amount of HP. She's only worth 20 XP, killing level 3 goblins is more rewarding too...

You can also do the entire critical path (i.e. get to the boat in the Underdark) by fighting exactly 0 enemies outside maybe a Bulette encounter where she runs away after a round. Doesn't require stealth, just abusing the tadpole conversation. I've done it yesterday, but took the time to kill the 3 leaders because why not.

People are right in saying the game isn't hard despite the HP bloat, even without all the cheese, but the reasons for that are:
1. the AI taking dumb decisions (focusing on downed party members...lol).
2. Long resting after every after fight, which appears to be a design decision with how camp conversations triggers.
3. The amount of scrolls, magical arrows, magical items you can find and the fact that everyone can cast spells from scrolls. A level 5 character in a high magic setting in 5e should only have 1 uncommon magical item. You get enough to fill all equipment slots in the EA except cloak as there are no cloak.
4. Meta-knowledge, going blindly into a fight is different than doing it for a second time.

1. Can be improve in development.
2. This really need to be reworked. You shouldn't be able to go the camp when there are potential enemies nearby.
3. That one is not going to change, as video gamers need their sparkling equipment and they need it fast otherwise they get bored.
4. Not something the devs can fix really.

1: isent actually that much of a dumb move considering we can otherwise res them in a fight. Making sure they stay down CAN be a good move, although not always.
2: That needs to change. Agreed.
3: The original baldurs gate handled this very well. Unless you had some meta knowledge about 2 rings it would take a decent amount of time before you stumbled upon magical items.
4: Agreed.

Not all gear that you find has to be magical btw. Or only have advantages. A great move would be if you found some non magical items that just behaved a little differently or allowed you to use them in a different manner. Making a sweeping attack with them for example or allowing you to cripple an enemy with a succesfull attack. Im just spitballing ideas but it could work and be implemented nicely.


1. That was just an example and it is sometimes dumb because it can make the enemy vulnerable. I also saw enemy clerics just cast resistance every round after expending their 1st spell level slots. Enemies going up to place themselves in the right spot for a good shove without having to move my characters. Them using items/spells/abilities that kill/hit their allies or themselves instead of my party members...

3. BG still had a lots of scrolls/potions, but the game spaced gaining the other items better. Mostly because vendors didn't sell many of them in the early game areas or they were super expensive for early adventurers. In the EA, you can buy +1 weapon/armor the first time you reach the Grove. You can even craft some. I really think they should leave that for Act 2 based on current level progression. The items left would be the Absolute items (which require the brand to use) and a few items in the Underdark/quest rewards. It doesn't help that the economy is totally broken, things are worth way too much despite vendors giving you around 50% of the price for them. A leather armor is supposed to be worth 10 gp, not 120 gp.
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Was mostly talking about the gobbo camp but enemies there have ober twice the hp they should have, some have class lvls etc etc.

AND ontop of that theres tons of them.

The fight with gut where everyone in the throne room partipated in particular was a nasty one

And yet in every hard fight there is a way to cheese it.

I just played king of the hill there and no one ever got to attempt a proper attack on me. I was just raining down arrows from the highest elevation.

That wasn't the only place where climbing up made the fight trivial. There are places where they can't even reach you. You have advantage, they have disadvantage and you can move out of sight too. And the AI is dumb enough to keep fighting like that until they die.
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Was mostly talking about the gobbo camp but enemies there have ober twice the hp they should have, some have class lvls etc etc.

AND ontop of that theres tons of them.

The fight with gut where everyone in the throne room partipated in particular was a nasty one

And yet in every hard fight there is a way to cheese it.

I just played king of the hill there and no one ever got to attempt a proper attack on me. I was just raining down arrows from the highest elevation.

That wasn't the only place where climbing up made the fight trivial. There are places where they can't even reach you. You have advantage, they have disadvantage and you can move out of sight too. And the AI is dumb enough to keep fighting like that until they die.

Fact that you can cheese the fights doesent mean that buffing hp arbitrarily though. Just that something needs to be done about the cheese. Or the need to cheese.

Persobally high giving you advantagr is in itself fine. It also granting your opponents disadvantage though is overkill
Originally Posted by denhonator
Originally Posted by Bufotenina
I think we should wait the full release, in OS you have four different difficulty levels, in almost all the games I play there's a choice on how difficult the game should be.


Saying "we should wait" is kinda weird when it's EA it's important to discuss now and affect the development.

We can assume there will be difficulty levels. But since currently there are not, we should assume this is standard, baseline difficulty. With this in mind, you could argue "HP bloat should only exist in a harder difficulty setting", for example


i see your point, and indeed is kinda weird ^^', but (obviously there was a "but" coming :P laugh ) my comment was about those players that feel like the actual combat system is too difficult (I get their point, sometimes it gets frustrating to get involved in fights).

On the actual mechanics I lack knowledge so I trust the players that state how difficult can be raised by other means different than hp bloating and numbers of npc. Still I wonder if it's possible at all to make such changes while mantaining coherence with the D&D 5th edition rules (alas I shiver if I think that your affirmation on the actual system being that standard, that is no different difficulty levels, becomes real. It would make hard the higher levels, making fights more a matter of piling up barrels and searching for altitudes and boringly long, like the Goblin Camp that takes a lot of time to be cleansed).

Larian has a very complicated issue in his hands: to balance the needs of seasoned and skilled (and lucky) players and those of unlucky not so skilled ones or the lazy ones (I fall in the unluck ones, miss miss miss critical miss are something I got used to laugh laugh laugh )
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Was mostly talking about the gobbo camp but enemies there have ober twice the hp they should have, some have class lvls etc etc.

AND ontop of that theres tons of them.

The fight with gut where everyone in the throne room partipated in particular was a nasty one

And yet in every hard fight there is a way to cheese it.

I just played king of the hill there and no one ever got to attempt a proper attack on me. I was just raining down arrows from the highest elevation.

That wasn't the only place where climbing up made the fight trivial. There are places where they can't even reach you. You have advantage, they have disadvantage and you can move out of sight too. And the AI is dumb enough to keep fighting like that until they die.

Fact that you can cheese the fights doesent mean that buffing hp arbitrarily though. Just that something needs to be done about the cheese. Or the need to cheese.

Persobally high giving you advantagr is in itself fine. It also granting your opponents disadvantage though is overkill


That's not really the point, but in another thread someone suggest that higher/lower ground give something like a +/-1 or +/-2 bonus/malus to attack roll instead of an advantage/disadvantage.
I think it would be better to balance the combats.
Advantage/disadvantage is very too OP to be a main component of all fights.
HP bloat on a few named guys here and there, sub bosses and bosses I think is fine. But the common enemy needs MM health and rules. The minotaur fight only took me 2 tries to win. Even with their bloated abilities. Put them back at MM skills and abilities unless they are Sub bosses. I would be fine if one was a MM Minotaur and the other was a sub-boss with slightly bloated hp OR slightly bloated abilities.
One good aspect of this game is the AI.
+1 op
give us our cake and let us eat it too!!!

maybe its a pain but this is a huge game right? give us lotsa options to play how we want. if we want 5E stats and all the missing then let us have that. people who dont want that can have the HP bloat. Pathfinder Kingmaker has tons of settings you can tinker with to get the game to play the way you want. I'm sure Larian could do similar and tweak balance as time goes... or i guess just let modders do it all smirk
Well, I don't like the bloated HP either, but if Larian continues ''The Great War Against Missing"', it's better than FUBARing the Advantage/Disadvantage system by handing out advantage at no resource cost. This completely screws the class rewards system.
Originally Posted by Matey
give us our cake and let us eat it too!!!

maybe its a pain but this is a huge game right? give us lotsa options to play how we want. if we want 5E stats and all the missing then let us have that. people who dont want that can have the HP bloat. Pathfinder Kingmaker has tons of settings you can tinker with to get the game to play the way you want. I'm sure Larian could do similar and tweak balance as time goes... or i guess just let modders do it all smirk


Exactly, you can change almost everything on pfkm difficulty.

If you don't like enemy with high AB, you can change it. If you like enemies dealing ludicrous high damage to your party with 200% damage, you can change it. Why? Because PFKM is one of the few modenr games which puts fun above this balance dogma...
Originally Posted by Matey
give us our cake and let us eat it too!!!

maybe its a pain but this is a huge game right? give us lotsa options to play how we want. if we want 5E stats and all the missing then let us have that. people who dont want that can have the HP bloat. Pathfinder Kingmaker has tons of settings you can tinker with to get the game to play the way you want. I'm sure Larian could do similar and tweak balance as time goes... or i guess just let modders do it all smirk
Yeah, this is probably the best solution. Personally, I'll be annoyed if a D&D game supposedly based on 5e stays so distantly removed from D&D 5e, but I understand there are others with a range of differing preferences.
You won’t realize how OP disadvantage/advantage is until you see the dice, I’m playing Solasta and when I see my nature 20 became a nature 1 then I realize it’s a very strong buff/debut. And it shall not be granted so easy.
Originally Posted by AranSIRE
Only boss characters should Be 'bullet spondges" normal goblins should be quite fragile on dps to feel D&D goblins now it feels fighting Orcs on steroids. dosen't feel godly.


Bosses need lair actions to make them more dangerous, not more hit points. Let the bosses break the action economy, that why they are bosses.
Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem
Originally Posted by AranSIRE
Only boss characters should Be 'bullet spondges" normal goblins should be quite fragile on dps to feel D&D goblins now it feels fighting Orcs on steroids. dosen't feel godly.


Bosses need lair actions to make them more dangerous, not more hit points. Let the bosses break the action economy, that why they are bosses.


I've been thinking on Legendary actions - maybe give the monster extra places in initiative that can only be used for legendary actions. It will telegraph the actions a bit, but would make something like the phase spider matriarch more interesting.

I really do think we should see goblins reverted to the tabletop standard, but at the same time I appreciate the variance in "types" of goblins. Oddly, it seems like goblins are the only opponents that have had this treatment.
Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Just check on the internet. Some players are soloing act 1 with no issue whatsoever.


They are using exploit and meta-knowledge to do that. Everyone can solo Act 1 with barrel cheese and abusing surface in general. Everyone can abuse shove. Everyone can summon the Imp familiar with good attack and bonus action invisibility on demand or the spider familiar with 33 hp too. Or abuse the stealth mechanic which is entirely line of sight based so as long as you aren't in the red cone you don't even need to be good at sneaking.

Nobody can solo the spider Matriarch with 0 prior knowledge. She can one-shot a level 4 character with her range attack and you'll trigger the fight before you see her unless you stealth rolls are good...and you can't one-shot her with stealth attacks with her amount of HP. She's only worth 20 XP, killing level 3 goblins is more rewarding too...

You can also do the entire critical path (i.e. get to the boat in the Underdark) by fighting exactly 0 enemies outside maybe a Bulette encounter where she runs away after a round. Doesn't require stealth, just abusing the tadpole conversation. I've done it yesterday, but took the time to kill the 3 leaders because why not.

People are right in saying the game isn't hard despite the HP bloat, even without all the cheese, but the reasons for that are:
1. the AI taking dumb decisions (focusing on downed party members...lol).
2. Long resting after every after fight, which appears to be a design decision with how camp conversations triggers.
3. The amount of scrolls, magical arrows, magical items you can find and the fact that everyone can cast spells from scrolls. A level 5 character in a high magic setting in 5e should only have 1 uncommon magical item. You get enough to fill all equipment slots in the EA except cloak as there are no cloak.
4. Meta-knowledge, going blindly into a fight is different than doing it for a second time.

1. Can be improve in development.
2. This really need to be reworked. You shouldn't be able to go the camp when there are potential enemies nearby.
3. That one is not going to change, as video gamers need their sparkling equipment and they need it fast otherwise they get bored.
4. Not something the devs can fix really.


5. abusing the advantage from height / using jump to get behind a mob so can almost always have advantage.
6. using all the bonus actions they added, shove, jump to disengage, etc.
7. Food healing during a fight.

Honestly if there was not all these homebrewed rules in effect, normal by the book goblins would be a challenge.

Originally Posted by lvl20DM
Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem
Originally Posted by AranSIRE
Only boss characters should Be 'bullet spondges" normal goblins should be quite fragile on dps to feel D&D goblins now it feels fighting Orcs on steroids. dosen't feel godly.


Bosses need lair actions to make them more dangerous, not more hit points. Let the bosses break the action economy, that why they are bosses.


I've been thinking on Legendary actions - maybe give the monster extra places in initiative that can only be used for legendary actions. It will telegraph the actions a bit, but would make something like the phase spider matriarch more interesting.

I really do think we should see goblins reverted to the tabletop standard, but at the same time I appreciate the variance in "types" of goblins. Oddly, it seems like goblins are the only opponents that have had this treatment.


The Githyanki patrol look like they are specialized but I would expect them to be.
Originally Posted by denhonator
Originally Posted by Bufotenina
I think we should wait the full release, in OS you have four different difficulty levels, in almost all the games I play there's a choice on how difficult the game should be.


Saying "we should wait" is kinda weird when it's EA it's important to discuss now and affect the development.

We can assume there will be difficulty levels. But since currently there are not, we should assume this is standard, baseline difficulty. With this in mind, you could argue "HP bloat should only exist in a harder difficulty setting", for example


Yes, this is the time to be discussing this, not after release. Fixing general balance need to be done as early as possible. Last thing you want to do is leave balancing stuff to the end. A lots of these things have ripple effects and the sooner they can be address, the smoother the rest of your development can go.

Part of the reason I am puzzled about why they are tossing out so much of the tabletop rules that have been tested for 5 plus years?
Originally Posted by dunehunter
You won’t realize how OP disadvantage/advantage is until you see the dice, I’m playing Solasta and when I see my nature 20 became a nature 1 then I realize it’s a very strong buff/debut. And it shall not be granted so easy.


Hiding the dice is certainly the onlyh way they will ever sneak this shit past the average players head. D&D players already know how ridiculously strong Advantage is. If they showed people what was happening with the dice it would piss them off, and rightfully so, because Advantage was a niche effect that was given out only by certain conditions and class effects. Larian needs to tone back giving out these bonuses so easily.


another thing I noticed and the reason I came to this thread. Shopkeepers are frigin LOADED right from the start. no freaking wonder Larian feels the need to bump HP at the expense of AC.... players have a full set of +1 gear right when they hit the grove if they thieve for it (long rests reset inventory). Larian should reel that in... these are refugees, if their shopkeepers have that much gear, why are they having a problem with the garbage geared gobos? Every tiefling refugee could be decked out, I think the greedy merchants are the source of their problems.
Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem
Originally Posted by AranSIRE
Only boss characters should Be 'bullet spondges" normal goblins should be quite fragile on dps to feel D&D goblins now it feels fighting Orcs on steroids. dosen't feel godly.


Bosses need lair actions to make them more dangerous, not more hit points. Let the bosses break the action economy, that why they are bosses.


And minions, powerful resistances, supernatural defenses, spell like abilities, etc; not HP bloat
Matt Mercer in Critical Role is my favorite example of a lot of bad boss fights in their second campaign. It is almost inevitably a hydra, or a golem with 6 attacks, a roper, etc...

Every fight:
- High rollers: The standard array adds up to 72 points total in stats, they are averaging around 86. Hard to hit, they probably won't miss, huge DCs.
- Bane, get ready to fail all your attacks and save
- Slow: 1 attack, no reactions. Goodbye multi-attack
- Enfeeble: Str based attacks are half damage
- Spirit Guardians: Half speed, guaranteed damage
- 2 Clerics: can heal through the chip damage no issue
- No minions: 100% focus on the boss
- Always a full rest before boss fight: 100% offensive spells, incoming!
- Sentinel attack: No more escaping, get 0 movement on the hit
- Stunning Strike: Lol, bye, monk has 14 ki can do this shit all day
- Multiple misty steps: Can never close distance
- Command: It worked, skip you turn!

And so many more. Its just an un-ending shutdown until the thing dies. Matt Colville has a video on this in his Running the Game series that specifically talks about stopping the classic D&D run into melee with it and roll dice until it dies. They should be able to escape, summon things, legendary actions to interrupt 6 full turns of fucking your world before you go again every time. Minibosses can have limited 1x/day abilities, condition immunities, special attacks, ALWAYS HAVE MINIONS. My D&D players have said multiple times they've never enjoyed boss fights as much as in my games, but it took me a while to dial it in.

These are a few fights and they were level 5 I think against them. The only person without minions could turn into a shadow that could move along the floor, ceiling and walls, grapple with advantage with a garrote that did 22 damage and had 0 penalties for movement when grappling so hed pop up behind the group, grab the cleric, and then move 50 feet away and up into the 30' ceiling and start hanging them. The run forward and die stuff is just annoying and spamming bullshit abilities is just as annoying. Suspira had a 15 foot flame radius that every 2 turns in it you gained a point of exhaustion. Legendary action, knock you prone, then great club with advantage that would set you on fire when it hit you. You also took fire damage every time you hit it. There was just a lot going on to figure out. Raised corpses 3 went after ranger 2 after the cleric. They couldnt help heal and attacks at disadvantage.

Or a guy with a sword that attacks 3 times with 1000hp. "Fun"

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by pill0ws
Originally Posted by dunehunter
You won’t realize how OP disadvantage/advantage is until you see the dice, I’m playing Solasta and when I see my nature 20 became a nature 1 then I realize it’s a very strong buff/debut. And it shall not be granted so easy.


Hiding the dice is certainly the onlyh way they will ever sneak this shit past the average players head. D&D players already know how ridiculously strong Advantage is. If they showed people what was happening with the dice it would piss them off, and rightfully so, because Advantage was a niche effect that was given out only by certain conditions and class effects. Larian needs to tone back giving out these bonuses so easily.


It just now occurred to me that BG3 does not currently show the dice rolls for advantage (particularly when rolling to disarm traps or in conversations). That might make it clear just how important a bonus advantage really is - it increases the average on a d20 roll by 5, but more than that it greatly increases critical hits and greatly diminishes critical misses (which, granted, only apply to attacks). It is a huge advantage, but typically you really have to work for it; not so in Early Access. It seems that they are using a variant of the optional "facing" rules from the 5e Dungeon Master's Guide - those rules allow to you get advantage when you hit an opponent from behind. In standard, core D&D facing does not exist and a character is assumed to have a 360 degree visual arc during combat (this, of course, is subject to DM fiat - a DM might decide that a particular foe is singularly focused on a particular task or opponent, and grants advantage to a rear attacker). The thing is - those facing rules also mean that moving from someone's front arc to the back would provoke an opportunity attack, something that we don't need to worry about due to the bonus action jump/disengage. Facing also means that shields only apply to certain arcs as well. I've never used facing, primarily because each round is 6 full seconds and I imagine characters are changing facing constantly throughout the round.
I expect it's just coming from tabletop but I would love to see the dice instead of the hit / miss or % to hit stuff. Another option that I hope that they will add.
While facing is optional rules, attacking someone who cant see you already grants advantage. Unless the dm rules that for ease of play everyone just has 360 vieuw.

After all in combat its not uncommon for people to move around so just translating that to 360 degrees vieuw has some merits. That said I generally dont want to punish my players when they try to do a tactical move and hitting someone in the rear when they csnt see you would fall under that as well.

I think ingame its not really a problem though, the AI makes use of it as well after all.
HP bloating every single thing is more of a problem than the bosses. In general turning every encounter into a set piece battle with high ground, explosive containers, grenades, multiple casters, buffed stat enemies makes playing the game kind of a chore. There should be some "pallet cleanser" encounters. Sometimes a group of goblins should be just a group of goblins.
Originally Posted by Panda Warlord
HP bloating every single thing is more of a problem than the bosses. In general turning every encounter into a set piece battle with high ground, explosive containers, grenades, multiple casters, buffed stat enemies makes playing the game kind of a chore. There should be some "pallet cleanser" encounters. Sometimes a group of goblins should be just a group of goblins.


4e skill checks too

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd%2F4ex%2F20080505a


In 5e after level 5 a lone fighter can kill 4 goblins in one turn with a longbow and a use of action surge.

Originally Posted by Skaia
In 5e after level 5 a lone fighter can kill 4 goblins in one turn with a longbow and a use of action surge.



Seriously? Is not 3? OHK one, then another then use the action and another.
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Skaia
In 5e after level 5 a lone fighter can kill 4 goblins in one turn with a longbow and a use of action surge.

Seriously? Is not 3? OHK one, then another then use the action and another.

Action surge gives you another action. Extra attack gives you two attacks per action.
So with your normal action, you kill 2 goblins. Then you action surge giving you another 2 attacks.
Ahh thanks. I was thinking that surge gives one extra attack, nor an action which are 2 attacks
AC -> HP balancing is tough because modelling impact is much harder than it sounds. Intuitively HP / (Hit Chance x Expected Damage) = Expected Hits to Kill so as long as HP / Hit Chance stays about the same it looks like not much has changed. Higher hit chance, lower variance, less frustrating, seems like an improvement. The problem is that damage is done in a small number of discrete chunks rather than deterministic blobs. One shotting weak enemies unreliably is much stronger than two shotting with ~double reliability because you will some times deny actions/placement (just existing in combat is useful, for example by threatening ranged attackers). And not all attacks are equal, opening attacks tend to be stronger, so making enemies more spongey nerfs that.

Also the flip side of lowering impact of variance on attack die is that it makes damage dice more swingy. For example part of why Warlock is so good in EA, 1d10 + Cha + 1d6 (hex and assuming Agonising Blast) is pretty good for one shotting at range, but even there a bad damage roll and your target surviving is more likely with higher HP, where as with the RAW 7hp a goblin has a 1/20 chance of surviving a hit with Eldritch Blast hit with +3 Cha, 1/60 at +4. With their current HP they have better odds of surviving a critical hit.
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
[Linked Image]

sources

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...l3qdH_eKI0I_zM01Me0q_2q5Dg/viewanalytics

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=712680&page=1

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More than a third of players rated it with the WORST possible rating.

One thing that I hate on most non faitfhful D&D adaptaions is the hp bloat. On DDO, I have a epic level warlock but play on epic levels where every mob require dozens of EB to die is so boring. I like kill & die fast. The unique thing worse than HP bloat is cooldowns.

"But missing is not fun"

Says who? Also, this mindset assumes that everyone is playing as a human fighter like an jrpg. On the stream that I watched before deciding to buy the game, most people was asking for warlock over and over and having to hit an enemy 20 times with eldritch blast is not fun or engaging. Is more easy to just nerf enemy AC on the beginning and give a "non increased hit chance" option. Do you know what eldritch blast is? IS like a force magical heavy crossbow. It needs to be deadly!!! I can get a high level priest of Lolth surviving dozen of shots from it. But low level goblins? Common low level spiders?

If Larian believes that bullet sponge enemies are fun, why not give the OPTION to play with P&P values or not?



I didn't realize that that was what was going on.

I agree. Many enemies (Gobbos) have so much more health than I thought they should have. If its the case that enemy AC has been lowered and their health has been raised, then that decision should be overturned. I'd much rather miss or have more arrow glance off their armour than something like, I filled you with wounds now you may finally die.
Originally Posted by Panda Warlord
AC -> HP balancing is tough because modelling impact is much harder than it sounds. Intuitively HP / (Hit Chance x Expected Damage) = Expected Hits to Kill so as long as HP / Hit Chance stays about the same it looks like not much has changed. Higher hit chance, lower variance, less frustrating, seems like an improvement. The problem is that damage is done in a small number of discrete chunks rather than deterministic blobs. One shotting weak enemies unreliably is much stronger than two shotting with ~double reliability because you will some times deny actions/placement (just existing in combat is useful, for example by threatening ranged attackers). And not all attacks are equal, opening attacks tend to be stronger, so making enemies more spongey nerfs that.

Also the flip side of lowering impact of variance on attack die is that it makes damage dice more swingy. For example part of why Warlock is so good in EA, 1d10 + Cha + 1d6 (hex and assuming Agonising Blast) is pretty good for one shotting at range, but even there a bad damage roll and your target surviving is more likely with higher HP, where as with the RAW 7hp a goblin has a 1/20 chance of surviving a hit with Eldritch Blast hit with +3 Cha, 1/60 at +4. With their current HP they have better odds of surviving a critical hit.


If you heave your greatsword down through a gobbo, that should be a oneshot. Somethings just don't connect. In my opinion, lowering the chance of damage makes sense, and encourages people to make more effective combat decisions as opposed to using every spell slot and short rest feature, then cheesing the camp system.
Originally Posted by Demoulius
While facing is optional rules, attacking someone who cant see you already grants advantage. Unless the dm rules that for ease of play everyone just has 360 vieuw.

After all in combat its not uncommon for people to move around so just translating that to 360 degrees vieuw has some merits. That said I generally dont want to punish my players when they try to do a tactical move and hitting someone in the rear when they csnt see you would fall under that as well.

I think ingame its not really a problem though, the AI makes use of it as well after all.


I never see AI attack me from my back, unless I have my back towards them, I doubt AI is smart enough to do this.
I hate it that my first post in the official forum of my favorite developer is a whiny complaining, but I just can't help myself, it is so frustrating. My level 4 warlock simply cannot kill a goblin child. A goblin child. It has 15 HP - with hex and +4 from agonizing blast, my damage is anywhere from 6 to 20 in one hit. I have been save-scumming for the past 20 minutes, which I almost never do, just because I refuse to believe a level 4 warlock cannot kill a child in a single hit, and it's just not happening.

I would just like to remind Larian that 5-10 level parties are considered "Heroes of the Realm" - page 37, Dungeon Master's Guide. Level 4 is not quite there, true, but it isn't that far either. If I was an Outerwordly patron - frankly, I would be disgusted at my character's inaptitude and would consider embracing that child instead!
Originally Posted by tyrion85
I hate it that my first post in the official forum of my favorite developer is a whiny complaining, but I just can't help myself, it is so frustrating. My level 4 warlock simply cannot kill a goblin child. A goblin child. It has 15 HP - with hex and +4 from agonizing blast, my damage is anywhere from 6 to 20 in one hit. I have been save-scumming for the past 20 minutes, which I almost never do, just because I refuse to believe a level 4 warlock cannot kill a child in a single hit, and it's just not happening.

I would just like to remind Larian that 5-10 level parties are considered "Heroes of the Realm" - page 37, Dungeon Master's Guide. Level 4 is not quite there, true, but it isn't that far either. If I was an Outerwordly patron - frankly, I would be disgusted at my character's inaptitude and would consider embracing that child instead!


Not to mention that a goblin child with 15 HP is ridiculous... especially when you compare it to adult of any race.
+1 as im sure others have stated in this thread, blanket hp bloat isnt a great design choice in a game where your character is supposed to gain a sense of advancement/progression while they gain levels, and frankly it comes off as a lazy fix that actually causes more problems than it solves, again for alot of the reasons posted here. at lvl 1, i can understand being worried about my fighters chances against a small goblin mob, but by the time i get to level 3-4, a single fighter should be able to manage or at least hold their own, but this is made that much more difficult when instead of dealing with say 4 gobbos at 7 for 21 hp, you have 4 at 15 for 60 (obviously its not this simple, bc your fighter theoretically will be 'stronger', but for sake of discussion)

i think scaling hp for certain boss npcs or giving enemies bonuses can be better implemented and explained narratively (ie a more disciplined/established goblin tribe in the region is known for having better armor and therefore higher AC or a more rugged/barbaric tribe could have possible rage/dmg resist functions, etc.) as opposed to just raising hp for enemies across the board irregardless of narrative whenever you level. i also think this speaks to some of the general weaknesses that are inherent currently in bg3 encounters from both a narrative design (ex. has anyone been able to knockout anyone yet and get a different story progression or is this still not fully implemented?) and combat gameplay (altho larian is still likely balancing/tuning dnd/dos mechanics) standpoint.
Originally Posted by nation
*snip* has anyone been able to knockout anyone yet and get a different story progression or is this still not fully implemented?

I got into combat with the myconid colony, making the traders hostile. I knocked one (the one with the ox) out and cleaned the remaining area. When I returned after a long rest, the trader was up and non-hostile initially. However, she reverted to hostility after some amount of time...not sure why.

Unless the non-hostility itself was just a bug, there is at least some implementation in the code that makes those you've knocked out non-hostile.
Originally Posted by tyrion85
I hate it that my first post in the official forum of my favorite developer is a whiny complaining, but I just can't help myself, it is so frustrating. My level 4 warlock simply cannot kill a goblin child. A goblin child. It has 15 HP - with hex and +4 from agonizing blast, my damage is anywhere from 6 to 20 in one hit. I have been save-scumming for the past 20 minutes, which I almost never do, just because I refuse to believe a level 4 warlock cannot kill a child in a single hit, and it's just not happening.

I would just like to remind Larian that 5-10 level parties are considered "Heroes of the Realm" - page 37, Dungeon Master's Guide. Level 4 is not quite there, true, but it isn't that far either. If I was an Outerwordly patron - frankly, I would be disgusted at my character's inaptitude and would consider embracing that child instead!


yeah its pretty ridiculous in comparison
Originally Posted by tyrion85
I would just like to remind Larian that 5-10 level parties are considered "Heroes of the Realm" - page 37, Dungeon Master's Guide. Level 4 is not quite there, true, but it isn't that far either. If I was an Outerwordly patron - frankly, I would be disgusted at my character's inaptitude and would consider embracing that child instead!


Eldritch Blast should be powerful as an force heavy crossbow. The idea of a goblin child surviving it makes ZERO sense.

However, this "tiers" on 5e are just RETARDED. Seriously. An lv 17 guy on the city of Liches can be the weakest non slave in that city and hence not even close to an "local hero" there, but according to the tier, he is a "hero of the world". This FORCES the DM to escalate teh conflict with the character growth and you can't have interesting high level adventures that are more local or even personal, like an hero trying to escape from Carceri.

As for warlocks, warlocks LEARNS from their patron. IDK why so many people believe that they are clerics. This wasen't the case on 2e and 3.5e...
Originally Posted by tyrion85
I hate it that my first post in the official forum of my favorite developer is a whiny complaining, but I just can't help myself, it is so frustrating. My level 4 warlock simply cannot kill a goblin child. A goblin child. It has 15 HP - with hex and +4 from agonizing blast, my damage is anywhere from 6 to 20 in one hit. I have been save-scumming for the past 20 minutes, which I almost never do, just because I refuse to believe a level 4 warlock cannot kill a child in a single hit, and it's just not happening.


I suspect there is something odd going on with damage dice rolls. It's super anecdotal but my rolls seemed to be distributed lower than they should be. On targets with no resistance to force or necrotic damage it should be an average of 13 per hit. That should be mean, median, modal average. In contrast I rarely seen it hit for that much or more.

Like I said, super anecdotal.
The enemies later on in the early access are definitely...harder. Ive yet to beat the spectator and the phase spider matriarch, and the githyanki patrol required a couple rounds of save scumming until I got them. Ive also yet to beat the hook horror encounter.

Keep in mind though that, far as I am aware, we can only reach level 4. Once one hits level 5 they unlock the ability to make an extra attack, which will substantially improve your damage output. I feel like once we start getting into the higher levels it will mostly even out

I do agree though that at times a couple of the encounters feel as though they are a bit much. The githyanki patrol, for example, are all level 5 and can easily kill you due to their having extra attack. Poor Gale could only let off a single fireball before he was downed, but At least he served as a distraction for one of the githyanki, lol. The minatours are an encounter I have seen cited. I do think them getting 3 moves against a party of level 4 characters is a bit much.

I dont think anything should be nerfed though. If Larian does choose to address the current difficulty, I think they should just buff our XP gain so that we can reach level 5 easier during current early access. things like HP totals should not be mucked with until all the classes are integrated imo.
Originally Posted by PraiseThanos
The enemies later on in the early access are definitely...harder. Ive yet to beat the spectator and the phase spider matriarch, and the githyanki patrol required a couple rounds of save scumming until I got them. Ive also yet to beat the hook horror encounter.

Keep in mind though that, far as I am aware, we can only reach level 4. Once one hits level 5 they unlock the ability to make an extra attack, which will substantially improve your damage output. I feel like once we start getting into the higher levels it will mostly even out

I do agree though that at times a couple of the encounters feel as though they are a bit much. The githyanki patrol, for example, are all level 5 and can easily kill you due to their having extra attack. Poor Gale could only let off a single fireball before he was downed, but At least he served as a distraction for one of the githyanki, lol. The minatours are an encounter I have seen cited. I do think them getting 3 moves against a party of level 4 characters is a bit much.

I dont think anything should be nerfed though. If Larian does choose to address the current difficulty, I think they should just buff our XP gain so that we can reach level 5 easier during current early access. things like HP totals should not be mucked with until all the classes are integrated imo.


Even now, you should be able to unlock lvl 5 before harder encounters.
In the full game, this shouldn't be a problem.
Low level cap, hp bloat, spell nerfs... Is Larian trying to DESTROY casters???? Why even have casters as option in the game? Force everyone to be a boring human fighter like in a JRPG
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Low level cap, hp bloat, spell nerfs... Is Larian trying to DESTROY casters???? Why even have casters as option in the game? Force everyone to be a boring human fighter like in a JRPG


At the same time there's a thread about wizard being too powerful. I would say mostly warlocks lack power now, since wizards can long rest whenever and always have full spell slots. Other than that, all classes seem powerful. Just maybe not in the way you'd expect. Not saying balance is great, I just think the overall power difference isn't that big between classes
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Low level cap, hp bloat, spell nerfs... Is Larian trying to DESTROY casters???? Why even have casters as option in the game? Force everyone to be a boring human fighter like in a JRPG


Well, it's quite the opposite. I made a post about it yesterday. Wizards are so overpowered even at low level in the game that you don't even have any incentive to recruit party members. You can literally solo the entire act 1. No other class is as versatile and strong at the moment.
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Low level cap, hp bloat, spell nerfs... Is Larian trying to DESTROY casters???? Why even have casters as option in the game? Force everyone to be a boring human fighter like in a JRPG


Well, it's quite the opposite. I made a post about it yesterday. Wizards are so overpowered even at low level in the game that you don't even have any incentive to recruit party members. You can literally solo the entire act 1. No other class is as versatile and strong at the moment.


Casters and Wizards are two different things. When I mean casters, I mean any divine and arcane spell caster. Warlocks, Sorcerers, Clerics, Druids and Wizard. WLK unable to kill a goblin child with a eldritch blast is an example of ludicrous nerf.

And the main point of wizard is versitality.

You can argue that wizards are too versitile but destroying ALL other casters by it is not fair.
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Low level cap, hp bloat, spell nerfs... Is Larian trying to DESTROY casters???? Why even have casters as option in the game? Force everyone to be a boring human fighter like in a JRPG


Well, it's quite the opposite. I made a post about it yesterday. Wizards are so overpowered even at low level in the game that you don't even have any incentive to recruit party members. You can literally solo the entire act 1. No other class is as versatile and strong at the moment.


Casters and Wizards are two different things. When I mean casters, I mean any divine and arcane spell caster. Warlocks, Sorcerers, Clerics, Druids and Wizard. WLK unable to kill a goblin child with a eldritch blast is an example of ludicrous nerf.

And the main point of wizard is versitality.

You can argue that wizards are too versitile but destroying ALL other casters by it is not fair.


Yes, but your formulation wasn't right then. Because if you say 'Is Larian trying to DESTROY casters?' and I show you that one of them at least is kind of overpowered, it proves your assessment is wrong. Because wizards don't belong to the ones being destroyed, and they are casters.
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Low level cap, hp bloat, spell nerfs... Is Larian trying to DESTROY casters???? Why even have casters as option in the game? Force everyone to be a boring human fighter like in a JRPG


Well, it's quite the opposite. I made a post about it yesterday. Wizards are so overpowered even at low level in the game that you don't even have any incentive to recruit party members. You can literally solo the entire act 1. No other class is as versatile and strong at the moment.


Casters and Wizards are two different things. When I mean casters, I mean any divine and arcane spell caster. Warlocks, Sorcerers, Clerics, Druids and Wizard. WLK unable to kill a goblin child with a eldritch blast is an example of ludicrous nerf.

And the main point of wizard is versitality.

You can argue that wizards are too versitile but destroying ALL other casters by it is not fair.


Yes, but your formulation wasn't right then. Because if you say 'Is Larian trying to DESTROY casters?' and I show you that one of them at least is kind of overpowered, it proves your assessment is wrong. Because wizards don't belong to the ones being destroyed, and they are casters.


They could have destroyed all casters except wizards. Casters in general still are destroyed. And I never played as a wizard on BG3.

But Wizards always was powerful on D&D.

Solasta has spells like Fireball and shock arcanist wizard subclass which is amazing. You can't compare BG3 wiz with Solasta Wiz.
Like @sorcerervictor I think the HP bloat nerfs casters. The offensive cleric cantrips should be roughly equal to the wizard cantrips but because one relies upon "to hit" and the other on "savings throw" the are nerfed. Do you find yourself using sacred flame often? Hold person?

Hold person should be a devastating spell that made the cleric a formidable foe. Lose a savings throw and then the enemies get free critical hits. But if missing "to hit" is rare the power of that spell goes away. The enemy has to: lose savings throw (1 round), get hit (second round) then gets another savings throw to get free in the third. Now if we were dealing with MM HP that critical hit would either kill or severely wound. But with bloated HP / lowered AC you are better advised to take the hit three times in a row than to take risk on two savings throws being lost in a row. Right? Whats better 3 near certain hits or a spell that may produce nothing on successful save with a payoff of the equivalent of two hits and a smaller chance (using Baysean probabilities) of getting to four hits in 3 rounds. Giving up three birds in the hand for a remote possibility of four in the bush is a bad gamble.

When Larian decided to change this rule I don't think they understood the waves it would produce.

Granted wizard cantrips are currently OP, they shouldn't have the surface effects. I want to see the 1d10 returned. Let them catch things on fire but don't give a guaranteed 1 point of damage. (In fact I've found that it's better to make a high elf cleric with a firebolt cantrip and a bow proficiency than to use sacred flame at all)

We will all notice the nerfing on higher level spells. Sleep is already nerfed only putting one or two enemies asleep. Fireball will be nerfed as well.

And yes, one or two eldritch blasts should take out a standard goblin.
NWN2 is a game which DESTROYED casters and hence, most people play with spell fixes/warlock reworked. In that game, an lv 4 warlock could OHK weaklings with eldritch blast. And could hit enemies at 250 feet with Eldritch Spear. Warlock fells so weak in BG3 that I fell like I an playing more as my party members...
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