Larian Studios
Posted By: Vhaldez Kagha - 24/10/20 12:52 PM
TL;DR so you can skip my hot take below:


- Kagha being a demagogue with easy answers for the refugee question in the grove makes no sense, Olodan only complicates this further.
- "Siding with" her is a thankless job that dips into comic book villainy as you massacre the refugees singlehandedly for her.

- To fix this, remove the child murdering scene when you first meet her
- Remove all reference to the refugees being "just about to leave" and involve the druids in the cleansing of the grove somehow
- Said cleansing should be expulsion of the Tieflings without heed of consequence, not ethnic cleansing as it is right now lol
- Maybe make Kagha a bit less of a cold bitch to the player when "siding with" her.


Now for some unorganised rambling on why Kagha is a ridiculous character;

The main questline for Act 1 revolves around helping or hindering these Tiefling refugees in the druid grove of Silvanus. They are opposed by the grove's interim leader who is secretly working with a druid hate group to make their circle xenophobic isolationists and possibly genocide the helpless refugees. As you walk into this situation you find this interim leader on the cusp of imprisoning a child and possibly witness it being murdered. Only the circle's second in command seems to take offense to this, even the pedestrian servants grumble on how this is a comeuppance for a long period of grievances they have had with these unwelcome outsiders. If you go back to the outer area there is a woman sending secret messages to the circle's actual leader, a swole chad bear-man-elf with perfect intentions and not a hint of xenophobia. This woman tells you that she is basically the circle's one person resistance movement and that the interim leader is druid Hitler who has swayed everyone but two people to her hateful cause.

The player is not nescessarily incentivised to act on the Tieflings' behalf in this situation and some of your companions even seem to prefer you siding with the evil druids (although all of them are of the opinion that WENEEDAHEALER-...). If you decide to do this though, prepare to be surprised about how nobody will be thankful for your help. Kagha, the interim druid leader, hates you the moment you step into her sanctum. All she does is sneer at you. She then orders you to go "deal with" the Tiefling leader, which can spiral into your party inciting a race war against them. Expect no help from the druids here if you even get to this point. When I tried it, I basically had to admit to Kagha that I am a racist and wanted to see hellspawn removed from this plane of existence. When I said it was none of my concern, Kghga blew me off and the opportunity I had to slaughter an entire people was gone. From what I have read on the forums the outcome you get when you manage to go through with this is you taking on the entire refugee camp alone, Kagha sealing off the grove forever and prompty telling you to sod off.

If you happen to be a rational human being and ignore the path I described in the second paragraph you will find that not only have the Tieflings done nothing wrong, they have a very easy and concrete way out of the druids' hair forever. All they need is a clear road to Baldur's Gate and they will no longer be a problem. Zevlor, the Tiefling leader, even comically shouts out that they were "getting ready to LEAVE!" if the goblins end up attacking the grove in full force. While this is happening the druids do absolutely nothing and should you persevere in your final standoff with the goblin raid or assassinate their leaders beforehand Kagha will even be promptly murdered for her child killing by the child's vengeful parents. In fact, there are three scenarios related to that outcome; Either Kagha is fully exposed as a druid KKK member and you talk her into siding against her Grand Wizard which leads to her being remorseful when Halsin (the real leader of the circle) returns and demotes her or you never expose her and she says almost to Halsin's face that she and Olodan the hatemongress will coup the grove in his absence anyway.

Now, ignoring the matter of the real-world political implications of a xenophobic populist rallying ignorant people against harmless refugees for a moment (because God knows we want to stay clear of that) the problem is that there really is no moral choice here. Kagha is absurdly in the wrong and the Tieflings are absurdly innocent. Making the latter more guilty is probably not going to work. Zevlor and all the Tiefling side characters are falling over themselves to prove how whimsical and charming they are (there is a three minute cinematic performance of a song with a montage of playing Tiefling children in there somewhere) and band-aid fixing that by having a Tiefling John Doe slap a druid's ass or something would be painfully artificial. I hope others in this threat can provide more elegant solutions, but as it stands right now I think cutting Kagha altogether would be the right thing to do. Leave the inexperienced Rath as the leader of the grove who is then struggling to accomodate for the refugees' needs, which leads to both parties realising that the grove is not going to sustain them for much longer. If you really want to salvage her character I would start by cutting the child murder scene, making her a little more friendly with the player (maybe even have her be knowledgeable about the tadpole like Halsin?) and have her final solution involve kicking the Tieflings out without heed of consequence instead of kicking them into the next life. The wholesale slaughter of those people, children and all, just has to go.
Posted By: Zarna Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 01:29 PM
I think she is a good character to have. It gives players someone to hate early on and gets people more emotionally invested in the situation. Also, Tieflings are treated like crap in most places, druid grove is a good introduction to this.

She can be killed without speaking to her at all and this method keeps the Tieflings safe (she doesn't run out to kill them). Not sure if you have to kill Nettie first or not.

For people that have a hard time with the Kagha introduction, perhaps there should be an autosave when you enter that area.

Originally Posted by Vhaldez

The player is not nescessarily incentivised to act on the Tieflings' behalf in this situation

I actually found more incentive to act on their behalf simply because of what happened. If the situation was just a simple bit of dislike between the two groups then I would have disregarded it entirely and continued looking for a cure. Would help them with the goblins later so I was not at risk of endangering everyone.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by Zarna
I think she is a good character to have. It gives players someone to hate early on and gets people more emotionally invested in the situation. Also, Tieflings are treated like crap in most places, druid grove is a good introduction to this.


My point is that Kagha and her followers are mad about something they could eaily solve themselves but have chosen to be xenophobic assholes for a reason the player does not understand. I doubt you are supposed to hate Kahga to the level where siding with her is just irrational, right?

Originally Posted by Zarna

I actually found more incentive to act on their behalf simply because of what happened. If the situation was just a simple bit of dislike between the two groups then I would have disregarded it entirely and continued looking for a cure. Would help them with the goblins later so I was not at risk of endangering everyone.


The Tieflings are totally in the right and the druids totally in the wrong. There is no incentive IMO because there is no rational decision making behind not helping the refugees. The evil / goblin path notwithstanding as there you simply murder everyone in the grove for vague religious reasons.
Posted By: Zarna Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez


My point is that Kagha and her followers are mad about something they could eaily solve themselves but have chosen to be xenophobic assholes for a reason the player does not understand. I doubt you are supposed to hate Kahga to the level where siding with her is just irrational, right?

This might be one of those situations where the only people who are supposed to side with her are the "purge all the unholy in the name of whatever" types to make them feel good about themselves.


Originally Posted by Vhaldez
The Tieflings are totally in the right and the druids totally in the wrong. There is no incentive IMO because there is no rational decision making behind not helping the refugees. The evil / goblin path notwithstanding as there you simply murder everyone in the grove for vague religious reasons.

I agree with you on the first sentence. What I meant about not helping the refugees was that at this point in the game you probably are thinking the tadpole is really urgent and getting it out is priority. If you stop to save anyone you potentially put them at risk. The Kagha situation may shock you into acting to help the refugees first even if is not the safest idea.
Posted By: pill0ws Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 02:07 PM
In Kahga's defense... these people did literally come from hell. I dont give a shit what your story is, if you are from hell and at my doorstep asking for a place to stay.... I'm gonna tell ya to kick rocks too. You had to do something bad to get to hell in the first place.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 02:09 PM
Originally Posted by pill0ws
In Kahga's defense... these people did literally come from hell. I dont give a shit what your story is, if you are from hell and at my doorstep asking for a place to stay.... I'm gonna tell ya to kick rocks too. You had to do something bad to get to hell in the first place.


There has to be more of a reason than demon people bad. Druids never act like this.
Posted By: Demoulius Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by pill0ws
In Kahga's defense... these people did literally come from hell. I dont give a shit what your story is, if you are from hell and at my doorstep asking for a place to stay.... I'm gonna tell ya to kick rocks too. You had to do something bad to get to hell in the first place.


There has to be more of a reason than demon people bad. Druids never act like this.

There is
.
Shes a shadow druid
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by Demoulius

There is
.
Shes a shadow druid


Except that then turns into an allegory about populism and is rendered moot when Halsin comes back to demote her. Is it really FR lore that there are comically racist druid hate groups out there?
Posted By: pill0ws Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 02:15 PM
I think they hint at Kahga being evil. Shes the "serpent" druid and all. I mean when you first meet her shes torturing a child, so yea, not your typical druid for sure. I feel like shes the real evil path, like the "lawful evil" path if they were to actually get the paths right. Minthara is a psycho... Kahga has a Game of Thrones Cersei Lannister vibe... at little less smooth but about as coldhearted. and when you think about it, a serpent is cold blooded
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by pill0ws
I think they hint at Kahga being evil. Shes the "serpent" druid and all. I mean when you first meet her shes torturing a child, so yea, not your typical druid for sure. I feel like shes the real evil path, like the "lawful evil" path if they were to actually get the paths right. Minthara is a psycho... Kahga has a Game of Thrones Cersei Lannister vibe... at little less smooth but about as coldhearted. and when you think about it, a serpent is cold blooded



But Kagha is not evil. She is

being manipulated by Olodan's shadow druid circle.


My problem with this is that she and the druids behave as though the Tieflings don't also want to leave.
Posted By: Demoulius Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 02:22 PM
Dont know, I think you have to tell him shes a shadow druid. He doesent seem to have caught on. Also a demotion of the kind that he dishes out there is a severe punishment. Banishment or death is probably the only things that are worse in their order.

That said people often confuse druids who roleplay their alignment and neutrality well. They have alot of things that they dont care about and some things they care about to the degree that they would kill people for transgressing on it. I dont think 'druids have to be some form of neutral' is still in the game for PC's but generally thats how they were always portrayed.

And honestly, I think most druids were protrayed very well. Nettie is a good example of good roleplay there. The multiple tests thing is horrid in its execution but she does what a druid would do when put in such a situation. She cant cure you and only Halsin possibly could but as far as she knows he might be dead. If she doesent cure it you will turn into a mindflayer (as per canon knowledge) and be a threat to all she holds dear. In a way shes giving you a mercy kill which is the kindest thing that she can do.

If id have to voice a complaint it would be that to many of the druids inside the grove (where you find her threatening the child) have no issues with it whatsoever. THAT is abit off. Them respecting her rank is 1 thing but seeing no problem with it another.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by Demoulius

That said people often confuse druids who roleplay their alignment and neutrality well. They have alot of things that they dont care about and some things they care about to the degree that they would kill people for transgressing on it. I dont think 'druids have to be some form of neutral' is still in the game for PC's but generally thats how they were always portrayed.


Druids care about nature and their grove so they would be upset if someone upset that balance. They are also rational beings who can understand that the Tieflings have a concrete option to get out of their hair if they would actually bother to help them. If you "side with" the druids now Kagha encourages you to genocide the refugees because she is xenophobic and part of a hate group. That is bad writing.

Originally Posted by Demoulius

If id have to voice a complaint it would be that to many of the druids inside the grove (where you find her threatening the child) have no issues with it whatsoever. THAT is abit off. Them respecting her rank is 1 thing but seeing no problem with it another.


This plays into that idea that the other druids are scared of the refugees destroying their livelihood (even though the Halfing trader is fine with them) and look to Kagha the demagogue for easy answers. I don't understand how they think Kagha is doing what is needed had you not conveniently showed up to do it for her, since she never undertakes anything against the Tieflings on her own initiative.
Posted By: Demoulius Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Demoulius

That said people often confuse druids who roleplay their alignment and neutrality well. They have alot of things that they dont care about and some things they care about to the degree that they would kill people for transgressing on it. I dont think 'druids have to be some form of neutral' is still in the game for PC's but generally thats how they were always portrayed.


Druids care about nature and their grove so they would be upset if someone upset that balance. They are also rational beings who can understand that the Tieflings have a concrete option to get out of their hair if they would actually bother to help them. If you "side with" the druids now Kagha encourages you to genocide the refugees because she is xenophobic and part of a hate group. That is bad writing.

Originally Posted by Demoulius

If id have to voice a complaint it would be that to many of the druids inside the grove (where you find her threatening the child) have no issues with it whatsoever. THAT is abit off. Them respecting her rank is 1 thing but seeing no problem with it another.


This plays into that idea that the other druids are scared of the refugees destroying their livelihood (even though the Halfing trader is fine with them) and look to Kagha the demagogue for easy answers. I don't understand how they think Kagha is doing what is needed had you not conveniently showed up to do it for her, since she never undertakes anything against the Tieflings on her own initiative.

Well if they actually showed that they feared the Thieflings abit more that could work. But they dont see them mentioning or referencing this. Just that the druids feel that the Thieflings are eating their food and are uninvited quests. Or wose, vieuw them as parasites as Kaghda does.

Kahga doesent represent balance either, shes far from it. And non of the druids seem to really comment on this. Why is the the second in line to be leader after Halsin? This is also not really explained. Some do as she says because they fear her or do what she says because shes in charge. The ones fearing her allude to the fact that they know that what shes doing is wrong but you dont find any really speaking up. I did talk to 1 of them who was sending out a bird but failed the check to get more information out of her. My guess is shes looking for Halsin or sends the bird to inform him about whats going on.

But an entire camp of druids and only 1 is trying to 'fight back' doesent really sound like a druid camp to me. Maybe they should show Kahga dishing out punishment or crushing all dissent or something because as it stands it just seems shes feared because she has a big mouth. There has to be something bigger behind it...
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by Demoulius


Kahga doesent represent balance either, shes far from it. And non of the druids seem to really comment on this. Why is the the second in line to be leader after Halsin? This is also not really explained. Some do as she says because they fear her or do what she says because shes in charge. The ones fearing her allude to the fact that they know that what shes doing is wrong but you dont find any really speaking up. I did talk to 1 of them who was sending out a bird but failed the check to get more information out of her. My guess is shes looking for Halsin or sends the bird to inform him about whats going on.

But an entire camp of druids and only 1 is trying to 'fight back' doesent really sound like a druid camp to me. Maybe they should show Kahga dishing out punishment or crushing all dissent or something because as it stands it just seems shes feared because she has a big mouth. There has to be something bigger behind it...


Apukisis (the woman with the bird sending out messages) explains all of this if you pursuade her to tell you. She is Halsin's only remaining inside woman and says that all the other druids are flocking to Kagha because she is a demagogue and has easy answers. Like I said before I think the idea here is that populism bad, refugees good in a really hamfisted way. The actual logic behind the storytelling seems to take a backseat to push that message. Making Kagha even more evil like you suggest or trying to muddy the message somehow is not going to work. Druids are not a good antagonist in a story about sticking up for the oppressed.

If they do this;
Originally Posted by Vhaldez

Leave the inexperienced Rath as the leader of the grove who is then struggling to accomodate for the refugees' needs, which leads to both parties realising that the grove is not going to sustain them for much longer.


It would be much better. An uncomfortable situation with two groups on neutral terms makes more sense than a dramatically hostile situation that can spiral into mass murder of women and children.
Posted By: Demoulius Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 02:58 PM
You know why that wouldnt work?

Druids can LITERALLY conjure food and water with lvl 1 spells. The 'they eat our food' argument that she uses is BEYOND retarded. That you cant point this out seems like an oversight or at the very least a shame... Likewise the refugees want to leave but cant do so safely; which is why they staying. Again you cant seem to point this out to them.

The Goblins are very destructive. they destroy the surrounding countryside and kill the wildlife and the druids not caring that its going on is also off.

All of it is off.

You know what, I take back what I said earlier. I have alot of issues with how the druids are portrayed....
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by Demoulius
You know why that wouldnt work?

Druids can LITERALLY conjure food and water with lvl 1 spells. The 'they eat our food' argument that she uses is BEYOND retarded. That you cant point this out seems like an oversight or at the very least a shame... Likewise the refugees want to leave but cant do so safely; which is why they staying. Again you cant seem to point this out to them.

The Goblins are very destructive. they destroy the surrounding countryside and kill the wildlife and the druids not caring that its going on is also off.

All of it is off.

You know what, I take back what I said earlier. I have alot of issues with how the druids are portrayed....



See? It gets worse the more you think about it. Why did they pick druids for this scenario? The Tieflings could have been holed up in a tent camp in Waukeen's Rest but that is burnt to the ground, so now we are stuck with this awkard scenario where good people are bad and bad people are good.
Posted By: Demoulius Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 03:32 PM
There are some serious questions that you should be able to ask and when Kahga doesent have an anwser you then should be able to point that out.

The druids not getting involved is fine. Its not their responsibility to fight it after all and a gesture of 'you can stay here for the time beeing. He will feed you. But we wont fight on your behalf' would work alot better.

Disdain for their race is also fine, racism excists in dnd; but not disdain for their lives. Thats not what druids are about.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by Demoulius
There are some serious questions that you should be able to ask and when Kahga doesent have an anwser you then should be able to point that out.

The druids not getting involved is fine. Its not their responsibility to fight it after all and a gesture of 'you can stay here for the time beeing. He will feed you. But we wont fight on your behalf' would work alot better.

Disdain for their race is also fine, racism excists in dnd; but not disdain for their lives. Thats not what druids are about.


100% agree on the first and last part there. The druids should not want to actively fight the goblins so that the refugees can go away but they should also definitely not have the amount of disdain for the Tieflings' lives as they do now. I just have to disagree with the racism angle. There is something profoundly ironic about a multiracial druid grove originally led by a saintly gigachad falling into racist xenophobia so hard they forego the excuse that the Tieflings' presence is an affront to Faerûn's nature. Kagha is the worst example of this, she seems perfectly okay with the unnatural mix of her own people (surely that circle has no existed in the form that is is in now for thousands of years?) but as soon as demon people show up she wants to murder their children.

Let us also not forget how absurd it is that despite living conditions for the Tieflings supposedly being perilous, they are hanging out in a massive set of caves that the druids are not longer inhabiting for some reason. If they had just built a city there the druids would have been screwed, right?
Posted By: Demoulius Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 04:54 PM
Actually I see no problem with that. They do have various races but none of the druids are Thieflings wink

Also thr story of bg3 takes place shortly after descent into Avernus which explains their problems with the 'fiends'
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 05:49 PM
[Linked Image]

My counterpoint is this line. Does this sound like druids to you? How is the "simple solution" not to help these people on their way?
Posted By: Demoulius Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 06:13 PM
That would involve either removing the goblins or make sure they can safely leave in some other manner. And we already established its essentially not their problem.

Why, what do you think is their 'simple' solution?
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by Demoulius

Why, what do you think is their 'simple' solution?


Murdering everyone. This is apparently a non-chaotic evil path you can pick, although I personally have never seen it. The Tieflings will all shout "the druids have gone mad!" while you cut their famillies down and at the end Kagha coldly tells you that you are no longer required, then seals the grove.

How are the other druids okay with this? Are they too "afraid"?

EDIT: Here's proof:

I first started by talking to Kagha and receiving a command to drive the tieflings out of the grove. I figured getting rid of tieflings would remove three whole fights, so I went to Zevlor and asked him to remove his people. He gave me a quest to talk to Wyll and do the standard "kill three goblin leaders" business, but I insisted about him having to go away now. This makes Zevlor attack, and needless to say he didn't live.

This is where the interesting things started happening. Afte reporting Zevlor's death to Kagha, she says you still need to remove all other tieflings, and it should be "even easier" now. That's a lie - no matter how many tieflings I tried to talk to, there was no option to make them feel unwelcome. Trying to purge them manually (I started from Arabella's parents) resulted in the druids acting like standard guards, and offering me a fine or prison. Clearly, the druids have no appreciation for the fine art of ethnic cleansing.

I decided to approach the situation from the other end, and kill druids first - or at the very least, Kagha. I did the quest about shadow druids in the swamp. The quest ended with Kagha and the shadow druids dead, after which I turned on Rath. This is where things turned from "interesting" to "broken". First of all, I noticed that Kagha's death failed to reflect in any way in my journal. Secondly, for some reason, neither Rath, nor his wolf reacted at all to being murdered, and I just stabbed them repeatedly as they just stood there.

After Rath died, I proceeded to start the purge on the outside. Curiously, only about half the NPCs turned hostile after being attacked - the other half watched the first half being killed. Far more curiously, I saw three tieflings inside the grove, speaking between each other as if the tieflings attacked the druids, and killed them all. Upon being spoken to, however, they had different dialogue - implying that the druids are in the process of attacking, and they fear for their lives.

After killing the druids and the tieflings both, I headed to the refugee camp, where tieflings stood armed. They also had strange dialogue that implied they're under attack by the druids. I killed them all, and headed to the Makeshift Prison - for some reason, every single tiefling civilian NPC was gathered inside. Probably, another result of the imaginary race war against the non-existent druids.

https://i.imgur.com/GiQqJPx.jpg

Having killed those too, I killed two or three tieflings by the gate. I then ran around the grove and the camp to make sure every single soul there was dead - which I had to confirm, because I did not have any journal entry I expected on the matter. Upon confirming it, I teleported to the goblin camp and spoke to Minthara. There were no lines of dialogue anywhere that allowed me to say the job was already done before it was given to me, so I agreed on the ridiculous plan of attacking an empty grove.

https://i.imgur.com/HjyTx4o.jpeg

Normally, you return to find the gate closed, and a cutscene plays where the tieflings open them for you and let you in. There, during the dialogue with Zevlor, you get an opportunity for betrayal. However, because Zevlor was already dead, and so were all other tieflings, no events trigger. I broke the gates with melee attacks, and ran around on top, even turning the now useless winch and blowing the war horn to see if it will make the goblin army spawn, but no such thing happened. The journal entry of the quest tells you to return to tieflings, so it appears that you absolutely have to have Zevlor alive for the army to spawn.

https://i.imgur.com/xFbxntQ.jpeg

tl; dr - if you decide to kill tieflings and druids out of your own volition, strange bugs happen. Zevlor being alive, for a bizarre reason, is absolutely mandatory for the "Raid the Grove" quest to proceed normally, and his death breaks it.

Fun fact - if Zevlor dies, he has a grave by the gates. You can dig up his body, and if you're a cleric, you also have some unique lines on the matter.

https://i.imgur.com/htBhlmY.jpeg

Posted By: ScouseSorcerer1 Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 06:35 PM
1. She's a Shadow Druid. She even has Faldorn's writings, a Shadow Druid from BG1, in her chest in the library. Shadow Druids are very much "screw literally all people" militant druids that legitimately will murder entire villages just to preserve what they see as the balance. Slaughtering innocent refugees in order to be able to focus on nature is LITERALLY Faldorn's Shadow Druid sect territory. It's her bread and butter.

2. "Druids can create goodberries with a lvl1 spell so the food situation makes no sense" is poorly thought out criticism. How many spell slots must they expend every day? Why? Spell slots are a resource the druid need to do things like communicate with animals and carry out their duties. Kahga knows this.

Posted By: Eddiar Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 06:36 PM
Omg... I just realized Kagha is a donald trump reference.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by ScouseSorcerer1
1. She's a Shadow Druid. She even has Faldorn's writings, a Shadow Druid from BG1, in her chest in the library. Shadow Druids are very much "screw literally all people" militant druids that legitimately will murder entire villages just to preserve what they see as the balance. Slaughtering innocent refugees in order to be able to focus on nature is LITERALLY Faldorn's Shadow Druid sect territory. It's her bread and butter.

2. "Druids can create goodberries with a lvl1 spell so the food situation makes no sense" is poorly thought out criticism. How many spell slots must they expend every day? Why? Spell slots are a resource the druid need to do things like communicate with animals and carry out their duties. Kahga knows this.




I understand what Shadow Druids are supposed to be. What I don't get is how an entire cabal of them managed to infiltrate a circle like the one Kagha is a member of because of a non-conflict with refugees. Do Shadow Druid circles actively look for groves in mild distress (with an absent leader!) to subvert them?

The argument about food is not mine and I honestly am indifferent as to why there would or would not be supply issues with the refugees. The Tieflings brought oxen and other foodstuffs with them so food is probably not even an issue. It is also not why Kagha wants them gone. She is just a racist extremist with shallow motivations. Nobody in their right mind would be okay with ethnic cleansing as a solution to this situation unless all the druids are uncomfortably racist against Tieflings as well, to the point where they even consider their women and children as fair game for murder.

Which then begs the question; why is everyone so okay with being comically racist against goblins? At least they are native to Faerûn, right?

Originally Posted by Eddiar
Omg... I just realized Kagha is a donald trump reference.


She is a standin for any populist politician but only if you want to bring that into the discussion, which is a bad call when there are so many other problems with her character. I just want to address this now so we can avoid having the entire narrative vehicle of BGIII be about racism and refugees.
Posted By: Demoulius Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by ScouseSorcerer1
1. She's a Shadow Druid. She even has Faldorn's writings, a Shadow Druid from BG1, in her chest in the library. Shadow Druids are very much "screw literally all people" militant druids that legitimately will murder entire villages just to preserve what they see as the balance. Slaughtering innocent refugees in order to be able to focus on nature is LITERALLY Faldorn's Shadow Druid sect territory. It's her bread and butter.

2. "Druids can create goodberries with a lvl1 spell so the food situation makes no sense" is poorly thought out criticism. How many spell slots must they expend every day? Why? Spell slots are a resource the druid need to do things like communicate with animals and carry out their duties. Kahga knows this.


1 goodberry spell feeds 10 people for a day. A lvl 1 druid has 2 of these and im going to assume that most of the druids will be higher level. The idea that they cant spare 5 or 6 (guessing on their numbers, could be less) lvl 1 spells for goodverry and 1 for water is laughable. Noone would take that as a serious reason why feeding these people would be a problem.

They wouldnt need to help them beyond that though. Keeping them fed also preserves the balance as it is. In the sense that a status quo doesent change anyway.

That said their options to help the Thieflings are somewhat limited without getting involved in some way which might make them a target for the Goblins. So to take the druids their perspective, what should they do?
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Demoulius

That said their options to help the Thieflings are somewhat limited without getting involved in some way which might make them a target for the Goblins. So to take the druids their perspective, what should they do?


Enlist our help and not be complete jerks about it? Lol come to think of it, Wyll has a ready-made plan for them...
Posted By: Imora DalSyn Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 09:13 PM
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Omg... I just realized Kagha is a donald trump reference.


Since when is he the only populist leader?

And isn't Larian not in the US? If that's the case, I don't see a reason to single out the US leader.

Step away from the politics.
Posted By: Contra Re: Kahga - 24/10/20 09:54 PM
I haven't explored the Druid Grove dialogue in depth, but I do agree that Kagha's "I will murder to protect my flock" doesn't seem appropriate given the scene we're shown as players. What I think is supposed to be implied but is never shown to us are the Druid's dead, which are supposedly numerable. We're told that the refugees aren't unwelcome because they're eating up all the food, but because their arrival has coincided with monster attacks and now goblin raids and that the grove is now under thread. If we saw graves, battle sites, or other signs of the Druid's plight since the refugees' arrival, their susceptibility to Kagha's demagoguing might be more clear.

I think the Druids are also missing a critical presence at the Grove's front gate, which from what we can see is defended entirely by refugees. It's hard to believe that the Druids have been hard pressed to defend their enclave since the tieflings arrived when it's the tieflings that are providing their own defense, even if a great deal of their collective effort is currently focused on the rite of thorns. Even a single Druid manning the gate, who can express to us if asked how much heat the grove has come under since the refugees arrived or how many of his comrades he has lost would change the image of the grove quite a bit.

As a side note: if we saw a Druid among the actual refugees, maybe providing food or water or giving some other sort of support, the argument that the refugees are a strain on the grove's resources would seem a bit more real and less like it was conjured up out of the idea that they are refugees and therefor~ etc.

Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 25/10/20 09:28 AM
Originally Posted by Contra
I haven't explored the Druid Grove dialogue in depth, but I do agree that Kagha's "I will murder to protect my flock" doesn't seem appropriate given the scene we're shown as players. What I think is supposed to be implied but is never shown to us are the Druid's dead, which are supposedly numerable. We're told that the refugees aren't unwelcome because they're eating up all the food, but because their arrival has coincided with monster attacks and now goblin raids and that the grove is now under thread. If we saw graves, battle sites, or other signs of the Druid's plight since the refugees' arrival, their susceptibility to Kagha's demagoguing might be more clear.

I have to admit that I missed the dialogue referring to the druids' dead, I thought there was none to begin with. We are indeed told that the refugees' main problem is causing monster attacks at the grove, but that raises two questions; why do the druids see goblins, who are part of nature, as "monsters" to the point where they begin to see Tieflings as unnatural abominations that need to be culled, and what you say in this next part below.
Originally Posted by Contra

I think the Druids are also missing a critical presence at the Grove's front gate, which from what we can see is defended entirely by refugees. It's hard to believe that the Druids have been hard pressed to defend their enclave since the tieflings arrived when it's the tieflings that are providing their own defense, even if a great deal of their collective effort is currently focused on the rite of thorns. Even a single Druid manning the gate, who can express to us if asked how much heat the grove has come under since the refugees arrived or how many of his comrades he has lost would change the image of the grove quite a bit.

100% agreed. The druid grove should be a Bitter Springs type of location if you are familliar with that from F:NV. Druids and refugees intermingling, struggling both to get by.
Originally Posted by Contra

As a side note: if we saw a Druid among the actual refugees, maybe providing food or water or giving some other sort of support, the argument that the refugees are a strain on the grove's resources would seem a bit more real and less like it was conjured up out of the idea that they are refugees and therefor~ etc.

The Goodberry argument is a DnD problem and not really something BGIII should look to resolve. If they just say the refugees are straining the druids' supplies nobody is going to be the guy who points out magical food is endless as it renders farming obsolete, removes food from politics completely etc. A huge mess better left untouched.
Originally Posted by Imora DalSyn
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Omg... I just realized Kagha is a donald trump reference.


Since when is he the only populist leader?

And isn't Larian not in the US? If that's the case, I don't see a reason to single out the US leader.

Step away from the politics.

This is why I want to address this now. Imagine if the rest of the story in Act II following the Tieflings' escape is all about how the (coincidentally mocapped by black and asian actors) Tiefling race is totally unwelcome there and all the other races banding together against this affront to Faerûn's natural order, lol.
Posted By: M3r4 Re: Kahga - 25/10/20 10:01 AM
100% agree with OP here, and that's something I did include in the feedback I sent Larian, though you said it a lot better yourself smile
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 25/10/20 10:36 AM
Originally Posted by M3r4
100% agree with OP here, and that's something I did include in the feedback I sent Larian, though you said it a lot better yourself smile


Thank you for reminding me, I have just submitted this forum post as feedback to Larian.
Posted By: Surface R Re: Kahga - 25/10/20 01:31 PM
That whole part of the game including the sham trial is completely broken nonsensical mess - because someone decided to force a real world situation into a specific DnD lore and setting that does not fit that "problem" at all.
That is why the player never gets numerous common sense dialogue options and why everything, every single thing about this whole sub plot is completely illogical and broken, From the internal DnD setting and lore angle, as well as from the "real world" angle and logic or any common sense consideration. I criticized it heavily in my post about writing that was mostly about the very start of the game, because it deserves harsh criticism.
Everything about it needs to be rewritten. Especially that horribly done sham trial.

First of, Druids and Khaga think the attacks are happening only because of the refugees - but why? It doesnt make any sense they would think so.
Even if they all turned into bigoted racists (ridiculous nonsense by itself) they don't have any info that specific or any reason to think attacks would stop if refugees are gone.

The Goblin, Minthara angle also needs to be expanded upon because what we get is insufficiently limited. She says they are out to kill all heretics, right. But that also includes the Druids and everyone else not in the Cult.
Well then, once we get that info we should be able to use it when talking to Druids - to make them see the attacks are not happening just because of the Tieflings and that they wont stop just because Tieflings have gone.

If Khaga has her own issues those should be motivated by her Shadow druidic ideology. And if we go by that logic, she should be interested in wiping out both the Goblins and the Tieflings, not because she is a bigot and a "racist" but because thats how Shadow Druids think and operate - kill everyone so the Nature is restored. A super duper extreme Greenpeace squad. If anything she should be trying to manipulate everyone into mutually destructive conflict - after which she will do the ritual and seal the grove... And if she is doing that then it needs to be a secret. She is undermining the Druid order from the inside. Secretly. (a secret we could discover and reveal for different purposes to different NPCs, of course)

As it is right now, and i consider this whole plot an unfinished very early EA version, not even revealing she is a Shadow Druid achieves anything. She gets a slap on the wrist and remains in the grove to re-learn the values... which is complete ridiculous nonsense.

Even so, having a new power near the Grove bent on destroying everyone not just because of "religious reasons" but because that new power is trying to expand its territory, power and influence - only its minions dont necessarily understand that (they dont even understand they have Illithid tadpoles implanted) - but the player should be able to figure all that out in a way where it represent a useful info.

So then, Khaga should be trying to get you and the Tieflings, other Druids and the Goblins to kill each other, and she would seek to do the ritual to seal the Grove and take it for herself and her Shadow Druid cabal.
Goblins and the Absolute would be complete enemies to her, worse then some refugees in many ways.

The Absolute would be trying to destroy the Druids and the Shadow Druids in that region, because it wants control. And even if Shadow druids are also evil, the two sides are so opposite to each other no cooperation would be possible.
Except maybe both sides would try to cheat the other and come on top in the end. (perfect opportunity for evil players to juggle with)

Druids should in fact be concerned about the attacks and the Goblins regardless of the refugees, instead of just thinking whoever is the boss thinks - and if they would want refugees gone then it should be for simple but logical reasons, such as not wanting so many people living there and spoiling their groove in the Grove. Building houses, or Silvanus help us, establishing a ghastly town and, gasp, a civilization right there. This could be easily shown by making the Grove looking overcrowded, Tieflings kids running around making mess of things, trampling over flowers, messing up daily rituals and so on. Maybe they would be worried Tieflings would somehow cause the Grove to slide into the Hell, like Ethuriel city did. That would make at least some internal logic sense.
Only they cant just boot them out because that would be murder in the situation.

They cant let them stay, they cant let them go.

So then they would welcome you to solve the issue and find a secure way to the Baldurs gate.


But all that is useless if the devs just want to force a current real word problem into the game in a very superficial and cheap ways.


Posted By: Merry Mayhem Re: Kahga - 25/10/20 02:01 PM
Originally Posted by Demoulius
You know why that wouldnt work?

Druids can LITERALLY conjure food and water with lvl 1 spells. The 'they eat our food' argument that she uses is BEYOND retarded. That you cant point this out seems like an oversight or at the very least a shame... Likewise the refugees want to leave but cant do so safely; which is why they staying. Again you cant seem to point this out to them.

The Goblins are very destructive. they destroy the surrounding countryside and kill the wildlife and the druids not caring that its going on is also off.

All of it is off.

You know what, I take back what I said earlier. I have alot of issues with how the druids are portrayed....


Seriously the vendors are restocking their trade goods every long rest? If they can get infinite +1 weapons, potions & scrolls every day from elsewhere, even if they could not create the food needed, you think those supplies would be more needed then stuff to sell to adventures.
Posted By: Merry Mayhem Re: Kahga - 25/10/20 02:30 PM
I agree that this side story / quest just has too many issue and not sure it could be fixed without a lot of work.

At the end of the day, does it really effect the main story of Goblin VS Tieflings?

I love that Larian trying to add all these side quests but I doubt they have the resources to make them all perfect so I would rather that time goes into the main quest.

I would suggest the following.

1. Drop the Kagda kills the kid. Without the child dying, no reason for Zelvor to want to hire you to kill Kagda.
2. Tone down the xenophobia and just have Kadga focus on sealing the inner grove. As far as she is concerned, the Tieflings can keep the outer caves, her Druids will be safe in the inner grove.
3. Set a timer of like 7 Long Rests for Kagda to seal the inner grove if the Tiefling have not moved into your camp.
4. If the inner grove is sealed, you lose access to the Halfling trader.
5. The Goblins still need to be dealt with so the Tieflings are safe.
6. If you decide to side with the Goblins, check to see if inner grove is sealed, if so, double the Tiefling defenders to get the Goblin raid that feeling it now has. Minthara will be upset at you about not being able to kill all the Druids but still should be able to follow her betraying you in your camp stuff.
7. If you defeat the Goblins, have Hassan comment about being uphappy that the inner grove is sealed but he joining your camp so it not like he really cares about the grove.

I think it would be easier to trim down this subplot to make it seem more logical without really effecting the main story much.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 25/10/20 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by Surface R
That whole part of the game including the sham trial is completely broken nonsensical mess - because someone decided to force a real world situation into a specific DnD lore and setting that does not fit that "problem" at all.
That is why the player never gets numerous common sense dialogue options and why everything, every single thing about this whole sub plot is completely illogical and broken, From the internal DnD setting and lore angle, as well as from the "real world" angle and logic or any common sense consideration. I criticized it heavily in my post about writing that was mostly about the very start of the game, because it deserves harsh criticism.
Everything about it needs to be rewritten. Especially that horribly done sham trial.


What worries me the most is that I keep finding worse tidbits of this real world situation. "Refugees good, xenophobia bad" being the prevailing factor in them. Halsin for example sends for an outsider to become the new first druid in his absence when he joins your camp and delivers a speech about how sometimes foreigners are needed to provide a fresh perspective on things, how you must not close yourself off from the outside world, bla bla bla. It is painful to listen to. Why did they feel the need to put such a message in their fantasy roleplaying game where borders don't even exist?
Posted By: Demoulius Re: Kahga - 25/10/20 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Contra
I haven't explored the Druid Grove dialogue in depth, but I do agree that Kagha's "I will murder to protect my flock" doesn't seem appropriate given the scene we're shown as players. What I think is supposed to be implied but is never shown to us are the Druid's dead, which are supposedly numerable. We're told that the refugees aren't unwelcome because they're eating up all the food, but because their arrival has coincided with monster attacks and now goblin raids and that the grove is now under thread. If we saw graves, battle sites, or other signs of the Druid's plight since the refugees' arrival, their susceptibility to Kagha's demagoguing might be more clear.

I have to admit that I missed the dialogue referring to the druids' dead, I thought there was none to begin with. We are indeed told that the refugees' main problem is causing monster attacks at the grove, but that raises two questions; why do the druids see goblins, who are part of nature, as "monsters" to the point where they begin to see Tieflings as unnatural abominations that need to be culled, and what you say in this next part below.
Originally Posted by Contra

I think the Druids are also missing a critical presence at the Grove's front gate, which from what we can see is defended entirely by refugees. It's hard to believe that the Druids have been hard pressed to defend their enclave since the tieflings arrived when it's the tieflings that are providing their own defense, even if a great deal of their collective effort is currently focused on the rite of thorns. Even a single Druid manning the gate, who can express to us if asked how much heat the grove has come under since the refugees arrived or how many of his comrades he has lost would change the image of the grove quite a bit.

100% agreed. The druid grove should be a Bitter Springs type of location if you are familliar with that from F:NV. Druids and refugees intermingling, struggling both to get by.
Originally Posted by Contra

As a side note: if we saw a Druid among the actual refugees, maybe providing food or water or giving some other sort of support, the argument that the refugees are a strain on the grove's resources would seem a bit more real and less like it was conjured up out of the idea that they are refugees and therefor~ etc.

The Goodberry argument is a DnD problem and not really something BGIII should look to resolve. If they just say the refugees are straining the druids' supplies nobody is going to be the guy who points out magical food is endless as it renders farming obsolete, removes food from politics completely etc. A huge mess better left untouched.
Originally Posted by Imora DalSyn
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Omg... I just realized Kagha is a donald trump reference.


Since when is he the only populist leader?

And isn't Larian not in the US? If that's the case, I don't see a reason to single out the US leader.

Step away from the politics.

This is why I want to address this now. Imagine if the rest of the story in Act II following the Tieflings' escape is all about how the (coincidentally mocapped by black and asian actors) Tiefling race is totally unwelcome there and all the other races banding together against this affront to Faerûn's natural order, lol.

Larian is located in Belgian. I really dont see the comparison to Trump though... maybe if she yelled 'make the grove great again' then sure. But as is shes just xenophobic and rude.

Also about the goodberries. I can guarantee you that if I put this scenario about the refugees taking up all their food they would have questions for me before I even finished my sentance. Not thinking about it because its a dnd problem and not a bg3 problem also doesent make sense. Bg3 is using dnd rules and is set in their universe. If npc's blurt out something that is obviously a lie the players should be able to bring that up in dialogue...

And about borders. They very much excist. Faerun has nations with borders just like the real world. Its one of the more common reason why conflict excists in dnd. What makes people say they dont excist?
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 25/10/20 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by Demoulius

Larian is located in Belgian. I really dont see the comparison to Trump though... maybe if she yelled 'make the grove great again' then sure. But as is shes just xenophobic and rude.


Kagha is a vehicle for any demagogue ever and has nothing to do with Trump. The problem is not that she has disagreeable views but that her character is nonsensical.

Originally Posted by Demoulius

And about borders. They very much excist. Faerun has nations with borders just like the real world. Its one of the more common reason why conflict excists in dnd. What makes people say they dont excist?


The modern phenomenon of borders comes from the idea of nationhood and sovereignty. Faerûn is a medieval fantasy world where there are toll houses and trade routes like in our middle ages, but no legally recognised and rigid borders because of the way vassalage works and how decentralised medieval realms are. I think Larian knows this, because besides the Tieflings everyone is everywhere; there is no Africa analogue where all the black humans come from, no Asia or Europe etc. which is why there is two black humans in the druid grove and thus racism should not exist in the way it does in our world unless you find a reall hamfisted way to force it into your story. Like bringing an entire outside race over from another dimension. 🙄

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either Faerûn is a colourblind wonderland where racial differences are overlooked or races have distinct homelands that they rarely travel away from, which means our party is looked at funny everywhere they go. Come to think of it, this problem is kind of like your average IRL DnD session where everyone is an absurd exotic rare and nothing in your party makes sense. You ignore it because it makes you uncomfortable when you dwell on it too much.
Posted By: Demoulius Re: Kahga - 25/10/20 06:39 PM
The idea that Faerun or dnd as a whole doesent know borders is outright false. Just as the notion that during the middle ages we dident have borders. Are you serious? Ofcourse we had borders. Why does everyone believe that the people in the middle ages were uncultured swines who had no form of common sense, were all illiterate and dident wash.

They had maps with clearly defined borders just like they have in dnd.

Maybe they werent as accurate as maps today are, but the notion that they dident have any at all is laughably false.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 25/10/20 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by Demoulius
The idea that Faerun or dnd as a whole doesent know borders is outright false. Just as the notion that during the middle ages we dident have borders. Are you serious? Ofcourse we had borders. Why does everyone believe that the people in the middle ages were uncultured swines who had no form of common sense, were all illiterate and dident wash.


Maybe they werent as accurate as maps today are, but the notion that they dident have any at all is laughably false.


I never said that. Borders are no a sign of enculturation either. What I meant is that border legality is an invented concept that has no bearing on reality unless you start enforcing borders with milltary force, which medieval states never committed enough resources to. You had realms with claims but no state back then was so centralised that it could enforce something like modern day borders or even Roman limes imperii. In the middle ages territory was controlled indirectly through an interdependent relationship between the lord and his vassals. It never came down to rigid lines on a map because nobody was capable of enforcing their borders so strongly.

If you want an example, here is a map of the Netherlands in 1300;

[Linked Image]


See all those enclaves and exclaves? That is because there is a difference between de jure lands and de facto lands.

Anyway, enough history lessons. None of this really matters in the setting of BGIII beyond the point that it makes Kagha's plotline look silly.
Posted By: Demoulius Re: Kahga - 25/10/20 07:20 PM
Whats your point exactly? That they did not have clearly defined borders with a map? That they dont have clearly defined property borders? Where do you base these assumptions on?

In dnd they do have armies who maintain there borders and border conflict happens all the time. Some nations are marred with borders conflicts between them and their neighbours. One region's basic premise (border kingdoms) is that its borders basicly change by the day. Why would that make the region special if it happened everywhere?

Agree that Kahga's situation is silly. But borders have nothing to do with it
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 25/10/20 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Whats your point exactly? That they did not have clearly defined borders with a map? That they dont have clearly defined property borders? Where do you base these assumptions on?

In dnd they do have armies who maintain there borders and border conflict happens all the time. Some nations are marred with borders conflicts between them and their neighbours. One region's basic premise (border kingdoms) is that its borders basicly change by the day. Why would that make the region special if it happened everywhere?

Agree that Kahga's situation is silly. But borders have nothing to do with it


Today, borders are widely recognised as complex multileveled and -layered social phenomena related to the fundamental organisation of society as well as human psychology. This is not, however, been always the case, but the way borders have been viewed and interpreted has evolved – much in line with broader discursive shifts in social sciences as well as in relation to overlying geopolitical events. This has resulted in clear discursive shifts in understanding and framing borders. The traditional definitions and comprehension of borders have been challenged primarily because the context in which they were created and existed has also altered.

(2) (PDF) A historical view on the study of borders. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319876230_A_historical_view_on_the_study_of_borders [accessed Oct 25 2020].


Kahga is a nativist in this story but is perfectly okay with her racially diverse circle of druids, for some reason Tieflings is where she draws the line. As someone else pointed out in this thread her focus should be on exterminating the enemies of nature in goblins and Tieflings both, which should be communicated clearly. What does Kahga do right now? Call a demon child a parasite, kill it, cringe and speech about "protecting her people".

Where borders (don't) come in is that Larian has essentially created the only possible scenario in this area where there is a group of people who want another group of people to get out of their land. The problem is that this land is really a big house that they were not really using anyway, the other group of people is defending it themselves and the immediate solution that is on the table is mass murder for some reason. The amount of hoops you have to jump through to put a racism allegory into a medieval fantasy setting while also presenting an as diverse and harmonious society as possible is truly staggering.
Posted By: SilverSaint Re: Kahga - 25/10/20 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Originally Posted by ScouseSorcerer1
1. She's a Shadow Druid. She even has Faldorn's writings, a Shadow Druid from BG1, in her chest in the library. Shadow Druids are very much "screw literally all people" militant druids that legitimately will murder entire villages just to preserve what they see as the balance. Slaughtering innocent refugees in order to be able to focus on nature is LITERALLY Faldorn's Shadow Druid sect territory. It's her bread and butter.

2. "Druids can create goodberries with a lvl1 spell so the food situation makes no sense" is poorly thought out criticism. How many spell slots must they expend every day? Why? Spell slots are a resource the druid need to do things like communicate with animals and carry out their duties. Kahga knows this.


1 goodberry spell feeds 10 people for a day. A lvl 1 druid has 2 of these and im going to assume that most of the druids will be higher level. The idea that they cant spare 5 or 6 (guessing on their numbers, could be less) lvl 1 spells for goodverry and 1 for water is laughable. Noone would take that as a serious reason why feeding these people would be a problem.

They wouldnt need to help them beyond that though. Keeping them fed also preserves the balance as it is. In the sense that a status quo doesent change anyway.

That said their options to help the Thieflings are somewhat limited without getting involved in some way which might make them a target for the Goblins. So to take the druids their perspective, what should they do?

Personally, I would like to see some additional depth to the situation due to this interaction.

For one, there is more than one type of supply-food could be sufficient if the refugees are running out of medicine or niceties, or stuff like arrows and weapons. Also, if the druids/refugees were legitimately pressed enough that the druids had to actively help defend the grove, or if the ritual required a constant expenditure of spell slots to fuel, it is possible that there would be a choice between spells to make food and spells to protect the grove. It's easy to show this-at the start, when a tiefling is sniped, have a druid run up to him and cast cure wounds and save him after a moment of hesitation-then sadly inform Zevlor that this was his only free spell so he can't make food for the refugees today.
Posted By: Surface R Re: Kahga - 25/10/20 07:53 PM
Of curse countries in our Medieval times had borders. They were fing kingdoms. Countries had borders since first countries were invented.
They may not have been as precisely defined and marked as modern ones but they sure existed and people sure did get pissed off about them and other dirty foreigners getting into places where they dont belong.

Thats not the problem here. The problem is that the reason why there is animosity towards refugee Tieflings - by Druids is never explained in a way that would make any sense in this setting and its lore. Especially in the situation where a third force is attacking everyone. This is not a case of Earth borders and politics and problems, modern ones or historic ones.

The whole sub plot is based only on vapid extremely superficial generalizations without any background or any specifics, and the same kind of blunt cheap generalizations are used in the trial. The player is never allowed to argue or ask or point out the most obvious issues about the whole deal.


Khaga idea is this: Once the refugees are gone, whichever way - she can cast the big ritual and seal the Grove, mkay?

Well... okay, bu that immediately raises several really obvious questions.

1. If the ritual will protect the grove... why doesnt she just do it and protect everyone?

2. If the refugees are creating any issue why that could not work...like maybe there isnt enough food for everyone, why are we never told anything about it and we cant even ask about it.

3. Obviously - a druid grove should not suffer from any food problems even with refugees around.

4. Why does anyone think that attacks are happening only because of refugees? Is that based on any info at all? Where the F did they get that idea?

5. Wouldn't Druids be extremely miffed about bands of Goblins killing everything and burning and destroying everything they can around them?

6. If Khaga is a Shadow Druid and if that isnt just used to show "she is evil" - then she should consider everyone enemies. Especially the Goblins.

7. If the Grove is sealed from the outside - doesnt that mean all the Druids would be trapped inside and unable to do anything about a Goblin army ravaging the whole area?

8. Do they want to stay sealed inside the Grove... forever?

9. Wouldnt they want to know more about this army thats attacking everyone?


... And on and on and on , these kinds of questions never stop because the whole situation setup is done so badly it cannot exist unless all these considerations are simply removed and not allowed to be considered.

And the trial is even worse. The player never even gets a chance to ask about any of these most basic and obvious considerations.
Posted By: Demoulius Re: Kahga - 25/10/20 08:04 PM
Kahga's (supposed) problem with the Thieflings isent that they are sitting on the land that they are or are not using per se. As fas as I can tell anyway. (might need to replay it. Its been a few days) Its more so that theyre beeing dragged in their conflict and (apparently) are eating their food. We already adressed the 2nd point but the first has some merit to it. To a certain degree.

The group of Goblins are the ones who are investigating the crashed ship. Its highly likely that they would have investigated the grove regardless if the thieflings were manning the ramparts or not. Infact theyre doing the defending for the druids in this case. So in a a sense they are helping the druids instead of beeing a drain on their supplies. If some died those could have been druids who died. Kahga doesent examine the situation outside of the grove though. She stays in the inner circle and just bosses her fellow druids around without even taking a look at the actual situation. The Goblins would have already been inhabbiting that ruined temple for a while, so the Thieflings have nothing to do with them 'suddenly' appearing.

It seems to me that alot of ingame conversations are still missing because alot of things arent talked about. Either things arent brought up or they dont really go into details of things like how Kahga got into her position.
Posted By: Surface R Re: Kahga - 25/10/20 08:54 PM
The Tieflings dont have anything specific to do with Goblins who are just following the Absolute orders of basically attacking everyone in the area.

I think some Goblins or maybe even Minthara mention something short about Tieflings, but it doesnt make sense they would be solely focused only on them.
It maybe that the writers just tried to create an excuse for their "refugees are a problem because Goblins attacks us because of them!!!" but it doesnt actually make any sense in the overall situation. Because obviously Goblins are attacking everyone they can and Absolute would not leave Druids in the Grove, just hugging trees all day.

Apparently the forces of Hell are interested into the whole deal, but other then they are playing with it all and are not direct allies of the Absolute its unclear exactly in what way they are interested.
And Tieflings are not really directly connected to inhabitants of Hells anyway. Just random people turned into devilish lookalikes and poor refugees. If there is anything else there we never got even a hint.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Kahga - 26/10/20 08:54 AM
Hold up, Kagha doesn’t encourage you to slaughter the Tieflings. She orders you to offer to go mercenary for them to get them out of her hair. The genocide here is a player choice. Also, she is actively working to expel the Tieflings — that’s what the Ritual is.

Further — the Goblins don’t even care about the Tieflings, Druids, or the Grove. They’re after the gang of Adventurers you help save/let die upon discovering the grove. They state they’re after those people — presumably for stealing, assaulting, or trespassing. Additionally, they’re interested in the Nautiloid. If you follow Sazza to speak with the Drow — they say as much, clearly not knowing those adventurers have left.

So, its simple — Goodberry isn’t cutting it with all the mouths they have to feed, and what is left is being stolen by the tieflings (break into that larder shack in the Grove as you arrive). The druids are merely seeking to conserve their way of life, and feel they’re being taken advantage of (which they are) and when their Charismatic leader goes missing and presumed dead, the only person stepping up with -any- direction is Kiddy-killer.

Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 26/10/20 12:02 PM
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Hold up, Kagha doesn’t encourage you to slaughter the Tieflings. She orders you to offer to go mercenary for them to get them out of her hair. The genocide here is a player choice. Also, she is actively working to expel the Tieflings — that’s what the Ritual is.


What is all this nonsense about "the Viper must strike" then? Isn't the part of the grove where the Tieflings are also going to be covered in bramble? Moreover, why are the voicelines for the Tieflings that suggest you are acting on the druids' behalf when you murder them all?
Posted By: Surface R Re: Kahga - 26/10/20 12:54 PM


Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Hold up, Kagha doesn’t encourage you to slaughter the Tieflings. She orders you to offer to go mercenary for them to get them out of her hair. The genocide here is a player choice. Also, she is actively working to expel the Tieflings — that’s what the Ritual is.


What do you mean "thats what the ritual is"? Expelling the Tieflings is a ritual, wut? She also wants you to kill Zevlor. She doesnt stright up wants you to kill all the refugees but doesnt mind it eaither.
And all for what reason?

Originally Posted by Marshmallow

Further — the Goblins don’t even care about the Tieflings, Druids, or the Grove. They’re after the gang of Adventurers you help save/let die upon discovering the grove. They state they’re after those people — presumably for stealing, assaulting, or trespassing.
They state several times they want to find the Grove, even Minthara sends you to specifically find it.
Ok, not because of Tieflings but they want to find the Grove and kill all the heretics.

Originally Posted by Marshmallow

So, its simple — Goodberry isn’t cutting it with all the mouths they have to feed, and what is left is being stolen by the tieflings (break into that larder shack in the Grove as you arrive).

Why is that then not stated by any Druid?

Originally Posted by Marshmallow

The druids are merely seeking to conserve their way of life, and feel they’re being taken advantage of (which they are) and when their Charismatic leader goes missing and presumed dead, the only person stepping up with -any- direction is Kiddy-killer.

None of that is explained in the game itself. Its only what you basically invented or inferred by yourself as explanation. There is no Druid who actually says "i feel being taken advantage of".
Posted By: Demoulius Re: Kahga - 26/10/20 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
So, its simple — Goodberry isn’t cutting it with all the mouths they have to feed, and what is left is being stolen by the tieflings (break into that larder shack in the Grove as you arrive). The druids are merely seeking to conserve their way of life, and feel they’re being taken advantage of (which they are) and when their Charismatic leader goes missing and presumed dead, the only person stepping up with -any- direction is Kiddy-killer.

Divide the number of people in the camp by 10. Thats the number of LEVEL ONE spell slots needed to feed everyone. The druids sleep and they get those spell slots back. Goodberry has a sprig of missletoe tied to it for material componnents.

But evem then I find the idea that the druids dont have enough food to go around is laughable at best. Even assuming that they have run out of the material components for the spells, theyre druids. They are in touch with nature and alongside rangers who are in their preffered enviroment would know best how to easily find food in their inmediate enviroment. The 1 line simply doesent work once you put it under any kind of scrutiny.

I think its a missed opportunity as well. You cant aid the druids other then just outright removing the entire goblin camp for them. Why isent it an option to aid the druids with their problems? Find food for them somehow? Maybe they are out of missletoe for the goodberry spell and finding a bunch of that can help them their supposed food problem. Maybe theres a source of food nearby that you can offer to them instead? Maybe you find some sick of weak animals that can be easily hunted and you can point the druids in that direction so that they have enough for the time beeing.

As it stands its just a throw away line that doesent come across as genuine and seems more as an easy excuse to fool anyone who doesent think about it.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 26/10/20 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by Surface R


Originally Posted by Marshmallow

The druids are merely seeking to conserve their way of life, and feel they’re being taken advantage of (which they are) and when their Charismatic leader goes missing and presumed dead, the only person stepping up with -any- direction is Kiddy-killer.

None of that is explained in the game itself. Its only what you basically invented or inferred by yourself as explanation. There is no Druid who actually says "i feel being taken advantage of".


This is a very important point. The druids are all fully on board with the bigotry and xenophobia on display with Kagha and even after the Tieflings are gone they make condescending remarks about good riddance. Apiskusis and Rath are the only tolerant druids left.
Posted By: Surface R Re: Kahga - 26/10/20 03:19 PM
I think - cant be bothered to start a new game to check - that the attacks are attributed to Tieflings a few times in different conversations.

Kahga also says she wants to protect the Grove - and thats apparently achievable by removing the refugees... how or why is irrelevant. It just is, mkay?
Only then the ritual can be done and seal the Grove... for how long? Dont ask. Grove sealed - we safe - refugees bad.

There is also a river right there, just sayin... and one Druid bear lazily slapping fish out of it. All day.

Btw, the bears look awful. Like someone wanted to create cuddly funny looking bears but also make them angry at the same time. They looked like stuffed angry fat toys.

Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 26/10/20 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by Surface R

Kahga also says she wants to protect the Grove - and thats apparently achievable by removing the refugees... how or why is irrelevant. It just is, mkay?
Only then the ritual can be done and seal the Grove... for how long? Dont ask. Grove sealed - we safe - refugees bad.


We are afraid and Kagha has easy answers. We also do not ask questions.
Posted By: slothgodfather Re: Kahga - 26/10/20 04:57 PM
I wish there was an option to remind Kahga of the tenants of their order - there is a book in the room behind her that is basically "3 easy steps to being a good druid" and one is to help those in need. Reading that should give additional dialogue options to both main druids in the sanctum. Maybe it can be used to out Kahga as a dark druid or it can be used to convince Rath that she is in the wrong and we'd help him take over. For being an evil person though, she is a little too one dimensional evil.
Posted By: Bossk_Hogg Re: Kahga - 26/10/20 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by slothgodfather
I wish there was an option to remind Kahga of the tenants of their order - there is a book in the room behind her that is basically "3 easy steps to being a good druid" and one is to help those in need. Reading that should give additional dialogue options to both main druids in the sanctum. Maybe it can be used to out Kahga as a dark druid or it can be used to convince Rath that she is in the wrong and we'd help him take over. For being an evil person though, she is a little too one dimensional evil.


There is. In the initial trial scene, there's an option to debate her on the teachings of silvanus. It may be related to religion, elf, or ranger option, I cant recall which. But either way it seemed to lower the DC to get the tiefling kid free, and sets the groundwork for getting her to turn against the dark druids and assist you in killing them later. She then ends the ritual and submits to Halsin's judgment.

I personally like that its a little hard to get the kid out alive. It sets up a neat payoff where the mom poisons Khaga in the celebration or motivates you to hate her. I guess people are just used to their PC having mind control powers in tabletop. "Sure, I'm an evil druid and this brat stole our sacred artifact, but you DID ask nicely for her to be released and you do have a PC flag over your head, so one roll of 5+ is all it takes for me to go against my core character trait!".


Posted By: Bossk_Hogg Re: Kahga - 26/10/20 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Surface R

Kahga also says she wants to protect the Grove - and thats apparently achievable by removing the refugees... how or why is irrelevant. It just is, mkay?
Only then the ritual can be done and seal the Grove... for how long? Dont ask. Grove sealed - we safe - refugees bad.


We are afraid and Kagha has easy answers. We also do not ask questions.


If only there was some sort of real world example of a xenophobic leader imprisoning kids, blaming refugees, wanting to build a wall, and having support from a significant portion of the population despite it going against supposed core principles of their country!
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 26/10/20 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg

If only there was some sort of real world example of a xenophobic leader imprisoning kids, blaming refugees, wanting to build a wall, and having support from a significant portion of the population despite it going against supposed core principles of their country!


Haha yes, imagine if there was such a thing. I sure would not want it in my fantasy roleplaying game which I play for escapism.
Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg


There is. In the initial trial scene, there's an option to debate her on the teachings of silvanus. It may be related to religion, elf, or ranger option, I cant recall which. But either way it seemed to lower the DC to get the tiefling kid free, and sets the groundwork for getting her to turn against the dark druids and assist you in killing them later. She then ends the ritual and submits to Halsin's judgment.


While this is happening Kagha is over the top in her racist bigotry and seems to regret not killing Arabella if you talk her out of it. Then when she actually does kill her she has the "cringe" animation before going back to being racist. It makes no sense.
Posted By: Bossk_Hogg Re: Kahga - 26/10/20 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
[quote=Bossk_Hogg]

While this is happening Kagha is over the top in her racist bigotry and seems to regret not killing Arabella if you talk her out of it. Then when she actually does kill her she has the "cringe" animation before going back to being racist. It makes no sense.


Because she's somewhat conflicted and not "all in" on evil yet. Its one thing to have hate and anger, and another thing to see a dead kid. After the deed is done, she's stuck to doubling down on the behavior or admit she was wrong.

Have you redeemed her yet? She thanks you for pulling her back from the brink and reflects on what she almost did.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 26/10/20 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg
[quote=Vhaldez][quote=Bossk_Hogg]
Have you redeemed her yet? She thanks you for pulling her back from the brink and reflects on what she almost did.


I did, and Olodan and her cabal just up and disappear lol. As if they are only there so you have something to fight during the confrontation scene when you know Kagha is a shadow druid. In my first "kill Kagha" run on Zevlor's behalf I thunderwaved the three mice (who were throwing fire and acid at me...) and these three people popped out of thin air. Druids are not a good narrative vehicle for the story they want to tell with the Tieflings and I have a sneaking suspicion that once we get to Baldur's Gate they will just do this one all over again with the townsfolk there.
Posted By: Surface R Re: Kahga - 26/10/20 11:29 PM
Getting kid out alive being hard isnt a problem. All of it being done really stupidly is.

The real world similar problem you mention does not have a third party attacking US which would then be blamed on the refugees... although im quite sure someone would try it. Regardless of how bat shit insane and idiotic that would be.
Posted By: SaurianDruid Re: Kahga - 27/10/20 04:02 AM
An easy solution to making Kagha's stance more understandable is to explain exactly what the ritual they are trying to cast does and why it can't be cast with the Tieflings still in the grove.

Have some dialogue mention that the Ritual of Thorns will create a violent growth of vines and thorns that will kill any non-druid in the grove. The ritual will protect the grove as a whole from outside threats like the goblins and other monsters that have been drawn to the grove due to the increased number of people there, but it would also kill the refugees if they stuck around.

The current story kind of implies this with the ritual being seen as a bad thing, but at least I didn't come across any dialogue that outright states it.

This would change matters considerably as the last line of defense the druids have literally cannot be enacted so long as the refugees are in the grove. Therefore the longer the refugees stay the more danger the grove is in. It isn't just about the food. The refugees are also crippling the grove's defenses just by being in the way.

You could also showcase why the refugees are a problem more too. Show how this large population of people is depleting the region of natural resources. Goodberry covers food, though every spell slot dedicated to feeding the refugees are spell slots that aren't being used to heal wild animals, mend diseased trees, and maintaining the health of the region. The tieflings would also need to be chopping down trees for firewood to keep warm at night, dirtying once clean water sources with their waste and bathing, and just all around making noise and disrupting the natural tranquility of the grove. One of the children literally tried to steal the druid's holy symbol too. I'm sure this isn't the first instance of one of the little scamps getting into something they shouldn't out of ignorance for the druids' religion and duties.

Large concentrations of humans is almost never good for the local ecosystem. More stress can be put on that point.

As far as Kagha not being very rewarding if you side with her? Yah. I think that is a major problem with choosing the villainous options in the game in general. I tried to do an evil run with my Lawful Evil Githyanki but upon meeting Minthara she didn't... Offer anything. At all. I had no clear incentive to side with her.

If Kagha suggested she could help remove the tadpole if she weren't pre-occupied with the refugee problem that would immediately make her more desirable to side with. Rather than chasing after a possibly dead Halsin your character would have a more immediately solution in front of them. In the end she can't help you of course, but have her make an effort before sending you on your way. Maybe give you some magic druid artifact for your trouble as a consolation prize.
Posted By: Surface R Re: Kahga - 27/10/20 07:07 AM
All of that is reasonable and obviously missing in the whole subplot. I suggested the same because its all obvious common sense.

I would like to see clarification that stealing the idol was done to protect the kids parents - which is also really, really obvious, and not just stealing it as a prank, or to sell it. This must be available as a dialogue option in the trial.
That attempt to steal the idol can be a nice little side addition to the gang of kids that hide in the caves and one that sells "magical" trinkets. Kids trying to do something but going about it in a wrong way out of desperation and - being kids.

A group of Goonies, yeah?
And then you go "Hey kids, youre just messing things up, the situation is very tense and what you did may have just started a conflict inside the Grove and turned the Druids against you. You almost caused a catastrophe. Let me handle this."
Add some actual sliding down some tunnels Goonies style to find a small treasure and fight some monster - first hint there is Underdark somewhere bellow the Grove. There is a kid in the caves who has some kind of issue but that sub quest bugged out for me, tie all that up with a few basic options to close it.

Another important fact - issue that cannot be overlooked is the question of the attacking force. That cannot be just left out of Druids considerations. Kahga especially would be interested in who and what and why of it.
And while the ritual can maybe protect the Grove in the moment - how long that separation would last also needs to be considered - especially when a third force is in the area destroying everything and unbalancing the nature.
For christ sake the inner Druid Sanctum is full of frescos depicting how Druids fought the dark forces, right?
Harpers are involved, in the area.

Would the Ritual be completely impervious to everything outside forces can do? Do they mean to stay locked up forever? Is that really a solution?

What if the Grove can be breached through the Underdark - connection you discover in the Gonnies subplot?

Could evil players use that later on to breach the sealed Grove from the inside as it were? Trade that info or abuse it themselves? Run into a cabal of Shadow druids that took over the Grove once it was sealed and are trying to corrupt and expand the ritual so it destroys everything?

All these options become naturally available if you just respect the established specifics of the lore and the setting and basic common sense.



I dont think Kahga needs to offer another tadpole "solution" or be told about it. We are already telling about our tadpole to way too many people as it is. We dont need another false hope or giving that info to people we dont know. (Unless its done as a obvious mistake with bad consequences later on)
The evil players do not need to become buddies with every other evil character or plot. In fact, being evil would work against that.
Kahga, being a Shadow Druid would consider everyone else the enemy and the player would discover that and her situation then needs to be solved along those lines. Even if the player is playing evil Kahga and Shadow druids would be competition, not allies.

This would also remove the "im evil lets just kill everyone muahahaha" evil gameplay a lot of players are already complaining about, and give them some more interesting options, gameplay and consequences.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 27/10/20 07:45 AM
Halsin and Kagha's personalities clash so much that I honestly have trouble believing they once led the same grove. Sealing the whole place off from the outside is totally counter to Halsin's philosophy of being in nature and away from the duties of ruling. How did Kagha (and Olodan through her) manage to convince the entire circle of the opposite beliefs of Halsin? Has he been gone for decades or something?
Posted By: SaurianDruid Re: Kahga - 27/10/20 09:30 AM
Originally Posted by Surface R

I dont think Kahga needs to offer another tadpole "solution" or be told about it. We are already telling about our tadpole to way too many people as it is. We dont need another false hope or giving that info to people we dont know. (Unless its done as a obvious mistake with bad consequences later on)
The evil players do not need to become buddies with every other evil character or plot. In fact, being evil would work against that.
Kahga, being a Shadow Druid would consider everyone else the enemy and the player would discover that and her situation then needs to be solved along those lines. Even if the player is playing evil Kahga and Shadow druids would be competition, not allies.

This would also remove the "im evil lets just kill everyone muahahaha" evil gameplay a lot of players are already complaining about, and give them some more interesting options, gameplay and consequences.



Giving Kagha a means to aid the player would reduce the "maniac evil PC" problem because if she had a solution then siding with her would be a choice that would make sense for a self interested, rational, but ultimately amoral person to choose.

As is she offers nothing. You as the player are looking for a way to fix the tadpole problem. She asks you to get the tieflings to leave. Why would you do this unless you just hate tieflings? Generally you wouldn't because there is nothing to be gained for risking your life. But if she could offer something the PC wants while the tieflings don't an evil character has a strong reason to consider her offer and do something horrible for their own gain.

This also enriches the choice to side with the tieflings because it means your good aligned character is turning down a potential way to save their own life because they refuse to do something morally repugnant.

It adds nuance to the choice.

As for the consequences of choosing the evil option of siding with Kagha? I assume how you handle this will influence Act 2 when you run into the tieflings again in Baldur's Gate. Or don't as they're all dead.

By and large that should be how the good vs evil choices are handled. Evil gives immediate, short term gains but cut out options later in the game because of your actions while good choices are crippling in the short term due to your sacrifices but have big pay offs later in the game when you run into people you've helped before.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 27/10/20 09:38 AM
Originally Posted by SaurianDruid

Giving Kagha a means to aid the player would reduce the "maniac evil PC" problem because if she had a solution then siding with her would be a choice that would make sense for a self interested, rational, but ultimately amoral person to choose.

As is she offers nothing. You as the player are looking for a way to fix the tadpole problem. She asks you to get the tieflings to leave. Why would you do this unless you just hate tieflings? Generally you wouldn't because there is nothing to be gained for risking your life. But if she could offer something the PC wants while the tieflings don't an evil character has a strong reason to consider her offer and do something horrible for their own gain.

This also enriches the choice to side with the tieflings because it means your good aligned character is turning down a potential way to save their own life because they refuse to do something morally repugnant.

It adds nuance to the choice.

As for the consequences of choosing the evil option of siding with Kagha? I assume how you handle this will influence Act 2 when you run into the tieflings again in Baldur's Gate. Or don't as they're all dead.

By and large that should be how the good vs evil choices are handled. Evil gives immediate, short term gains but cut out options later in the game because of your actions while good choices are crippling in the short term due to your sacrifices but have big pay offs later in the game when you run into people you've helped before.


The "evil" path does this right now and has you betray the Tieflings in order to gain a potential cure / solution to the parasite problem through Minthara and the Absolute. The problem is that this also leads to every single other option becoming completely unviable (Halsin dies or is otherwise out of the picture). Kagha has no solution for you because if you "side with" her, Halsin gets locked out of the grove and helps you anyway.
Posted By: Surface R Re: Kahga - 27/10/20 10:15 AM
No.

Having Kahga be yet another "i have a solution" NPC is a cheap and superficial approach. With nothing to achieve because that too unavoidably turns out to be not true.
We already have that with Nattie and Halsin - and Gith patrol. And auntie Ethel. And the godamn Goblins who dont even know they have tadpoles implanted and refuse to believe it.

Having yet another same - false solution promise - is uninspired, unimaginative, cheap and too repetitive. I would like to have some other kind of content then "looking for a healer who cant heal the problem" thanks.
Its not like its a realistic option anyway - because the whole game is based on your issue with tadpoles and their effects - so ofcourse we wont be able to solve it in act 1, or 2.
And i sure dont intend to go around whole game world telling every major NPC is have a illithid tadpole in my head.
Its supposed to be a secret, ffs.

Helping Tieflings does not need to be tied to this game over solution to the tadpoles - at all.
Not every godamn sub quest needs to be about it - directly. It can just be a consequence of other decisions you make, that you are forced to make. And personal preferences of the players.
The whole world does not need to be just about you and your godamn tadpoles.

You find yourself in that situation - and you cant just do nothing anyway. Sure you can just stealth through and into the Underdark - for lols, just because, any maybe you can do similar in the rest of the game (i hihgly doubt it) but that means you will skip most of the content of the game. You may as well simply uninstall it. Btw, this also makes Shadowheart nagging about not getting involved completely nonsensical. If you are to find a healer - you have to get godamn involved.
One way or another.

And no, reducing everything into two extremes of good OR evil does not add any nuance. It removes it.
Having every major NPC offering a false solution also doesnt add nuance - it removes it.

Posted By: SaurianDruid Re: Kahga - 27/10/20 10:45 AM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
[quote=SaurianDruid]

The "evil" path does this right now and has you betray the Tieflings in order to gain a potential cure / solution to the parasite problem through Minthara and the Absolute. The problem is that this also leads to every single other option becoming completely unviable (Halsin dies or is otherwise out of the picture). Kagha has no solution for you because if you "side with" her, Halsin gets locked out of the grove and helps you anyway.


Really? Because Minthara didn't offer me anything. She just commanded that I attack the Grove without offering anything at all to me to do it.

Originally Posted by Surface R
No.

Having Kahga be yet another "i have a solution" NPC is a cheap and superficial approach. With nothing to achieve because that too unavoidably turns out to be not true.
We already have that with Nattie and Halsin - and Gith patrol. And auntie Ethel. And the godamn Goblins who dont even know they have tadpoles implanted and refuse to believe it.

Having yet another same - false solution promise - is uninspired, unimaginative, cheap and too repetitive. I would like to have some other kind of content then "looking for a healer who cant heal the problem" thanks.


The problem is that the early game is very, very urgent about you finding a healer as soon as possible so any path that doesn't offer at least the possibility of a cure feels unnatural to choose. It should be the top priority of any character, good or evil, unless for some reason they really like the idea of having their soul snuffed out and body transformed into a Mind Flayer. Any choice that doesn't lead toward a cure of some sort seems forced because of that. Your character would only ever consider it if they somehow already knew they weren't going to transform in a matter of days.

Even if not a cure though, Kagha still needs to offer something to entice you to help her. Maybe she does some druid magic that is supposed to slow your transformation. Or maybe she just points you in the direction of a different solution. Maybe she knows about Ethel and directs you to the swamp area for help.

But if you really insist on her not being able to help with the tadpole at all she needs to at least offer something. Something enticing too if she expects you to put your life or death, immediately urgent quest on hold to do it.
Posted By: Surface R Re: Kahga - 27/10/20 12:25 PM
There is nothing urgent about the condition. The start of the game, the intro and first immediate five minutes push that angle but there is no actual need or reason for it.

The actual experience of the gameplay is designed directly opposite to any kind of urgency.
Most of the plot and revelations about the condition get revealed through companions interaction which doesn't happen without resting. And the first bigger effects also happen during or within resting periods.
The whole experience of actually playing doesn't have anything to do with any kind of urgency about it.

You may want to spend the game repeatedly going from one major NPC to another and asking everyone for a solution and reveling to everyone your condition. I dont.
I would rather have additional different content that would make the world feel more alive, that may be connected to our quest in different ways. Sometimes more, sometimes less, and sometimes not at all.

Posted By: Bossk_Hogg Re: Kahga - 27/10/20 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg
[quote=Vhaldez][quote=Bossk_Hogg]
Have you redeemed her yet? She thanks you for pulling her back from the brink and reflects on what she almost did.


I did, and Olodan and her cabal just up and disappear lol. As if they are only there so you have something to fight during the confrontation scene when you know Kagha is a shadow druid. In my first "kill Kagha" run on Zevlor's behalf I thunderwaved the three mice (who were throwing fire and acid at me...) and these three people popped out of thin air. Druids are not a good narrative vehicle for the story they want to tell with the Tieflings and I have a sneaking suspicion that once we get to Baldur's Gate they will just do this one all over again with the townsfolk there.


Weird, I had some issues with my cinematic as well. The mice are the shadow druids, and their evil is foreshadowed if you speak with them using speak with animals as they are pretty nasty (though not as rude as Timber... F you squirrel!). They break the wildshape and command Kagha to purge you. If you succeed in religion/ranger/elf she turns against them and the three shadow druids fight you, Kagha, Rath and the two other rando druids. Otherwise the randos and I think the snotty librarian guy fight you and Rath.

The druids work well IMO. They've tended to have an isolationist attitude, given Silvanus has an alignment of Neutral. The tieflings present an easy scapegoat to further the shadow druids agenda. There's racism at play, but also that they arent druids so are less subservient to her. She doesnt want them locked in with her while she continues her work of converting the rest of the circle because they present a clear ally for those druids who might balk at joining the shadow circle.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 27/10/20 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg

The druids work well IMO. They've tended to have an isolationist attitude, given Silvanus has an alignment of Neutral. The tieflings present an easy scapegoat to further the shadow druids agenda. There's racism at play, but also that they arent druids.


But these druids don't. Halsin is a perfect xenophile good guy and he has led the grove for an innumerable amount of time before Kagha stepped in. Were all the druids secretly racists who hated Halsin? Is Halsin a huge blowhard who was the only thing standing in the circle's way to becoming a hate group? It should not be possible to manipulate such a small grove so strongly without making uncomfortable implications about the true nature of the people living in it.
Posted By: Cendre Re: Kahga - 27/10/20 05:57 PM
From my point of view, most of you are overthinking all of this. With that kind of criticism even real history doesn't seem to make sense. Here is the story i felt i was told about during my play.

There was a druid grove in a savage but peacefull land. They lived here and made their druidic stuff, helping travelers who needed it but keeping mostly to themselves. Until that balance was broken by goblins and other malicious species, unprecedently organised and driven by a new faith. Doing their stuff and event venturing outside became dangerous, and staying hidden became more important. They could defend themselves but not able to take down an army. But they still offered safe harbour when a large group of weak refugees from Elturel was nearly slaughtered by this new threat, because it was their duty, the rule of the grove. But living with all those strangers now trapped here is not the same as helping the occasionnal fellow passing by, and so tensions arose, as a powerfull but impatient druid voiced the feeling of many : the strangers should be casted out whatever the consequences for them, since their presence incresed the risk for the grove to be found and invaded by an army. Their leader argued that this would be the destruction of the grove in another way, cause its role was to be a shelter in those lands. Leaded by a darker faction of their cult eager to gain another sanctuary in their grasp, and as their true leader vanished, the second took the decision to seal the grove no matter what, and seek for the best option to do it peacefully. Ultimatum, use of mercenaries to protect the refugee or force them off, anything as long as they're gone. Better the grove under Shadow druid rule than no grove at all, and darkness could be the way to survive those dark times. It could have lead to refugees finally succombing to this evil army or escaping them, to an armed conflict inside the grove where the druids would surely have prevailed, but in all outcomes the grove was still there and defended by those thorns. But since plot armored PCs came and defeated singlehandly this army, their bosses, saved the grove leader, and maybe save 2 children, killed the hag, and burnt a red dragon with magic barrels, the grove was saved without having to change to adapt to a newly hostile land. And Halsin could play his 'wise and forgiving good guy who was right all along' act.

I'm trolling a little at the end, but really, all those stories need to be crafted so we decide the outcome/are the solution. So of course other characters of the world make clearly identifiable mistakes and lack some kind of action power. It's an rpg.

But i find this story very believable and consistent. If your home was invaded, would you go outside and try to oppose the invaders or stay with your family in the most hidden and defendable place you can find, and wait for the danger to pass? And how many of the others would you take with you, and how different?

I didn't even need to considere the fact that we're talking about a bunch of hell spawn people to make sense of how this story got where i find it.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 27/10/20 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by Cendre
From my point of view, most of you are overthinking all of this. With that kind of criticism even real history doesn't seem to make sense. Here is the story i felt i was told about during my play.


It's a bunch of innocent refugees being scapegoated by a demagogue as the source of the community's problems until an outside force solves these problems and teaches the community leader the error of their ways by having their true leader step in and reprimand them. After which this true leader gives a speech about the value of outsiders. Now the rest of BG3 will be about following these innocent refugees along the road to happiness and assisting them against the dangers of Faerûn as well as the bigotry of its inhabitants.

Tiefling lives matter.
Posted By: SaurianDruid Re: Kahga - 27/10/20 11:05 PM
Originally Posted by Surface R
There is nothing urgent about the condition. The start of the game, the intro and first immediate five minutes push that angle but there is no actual need or reason for it.

The actual experience of the gameplay is designed directly opposite to any kind of urgency.
Most of the plot and revelations about the condition get revealed through companions interaction which doesn't happen without resting. And the first bigger effects also happen during or within resting periods.
The whole experience of actually playing doesn't have anything to do with any kind of urgency about it.

You may want to spend the game repeatedly going from one major NPC to another and asking everyone for a solution and reveling to everyone your condition. I dont.
I would rather have additional different content that would make the world feel more alive, that may be connected to our quest in different ways. Sometimes more, sometimes less, and sometimes not at all.




Nothing urgent? I am not sure we played the same game.

You're told very early on by everyone you meet that you have only days, maybe hours, before your soul is snuffed out and transformed into a monster. Nettie tries to murder you because she is worried you'll change before Halsin is found again. When you rest your companions ask if it is wise to make camp knowing you may all turn.

The gameplay may not encourage that sense of urgency but the story does. The characters don't calm down about the tadpole until after a couple long rests and they start to wonder why they've not turned already.

Also if you don't want to tell everyone about your tadpole that is absolutely already an option. You can keep it secret and not tell anyone if you want, but you should also have the option of telling people in hopes of finding a cure. With potential bad outcomes to go along with it if you talk about it to the wrong person, like when you ask Gut to cure you.

Anyway, we're veering off course. We shouldn't derail the thread. This is about Kagha and how we can make her side more justifiable or at least rewarding.
Posted By: virion Re: Kahga - 28/10/20 12:41 AM
Kagha's actions seem unreasonable because we don't know her motives yet. But she was trying to achieve something on behalf of shadow's druids . There's a note about it near the encounters with shadows at the swamp.

So the whole " purge the heresy" bs from kagha might be a way for her to justify closing the grove. " If they came here, more will come". Also the absolute wants to attack the grove and it has nothing to do with the refugees.

Her actions seem to be a bit unreasonable but with the absolute, bhaal being teased in various notes and the shadow druid thing ... I think there's more to it. I think khaga is not a silly psychopath. She has an objective and she's extremely bad and putting it into place.
Posted By: Orbax Re: Kahga - 28/10/20 12:42 AM
Originally Posted by virion
Kagha's actions seem unreasonable because we don't know her motives yet. But she was trying to achieve something on behalf of shadow's druids .


Her chest is behind the attached library behind the shelves. There is a letter to her there that says to go to the tree. You go, read it, confront her. Win some rolls and she roughly tells you her motives. Win some more, she joins you, accepts punishment. Classic "how did I become so blind" storyline that you helped her see the wrongness of her ways.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 28/10/20 07:58 AM
Originally Posted by virion
Kagha's actions seem unreasonable because we don't know her motives yet. But she was trying to achieve something on behalf of shadow's druids . There's a note about it near the encounters with shadows at the swamp.

So the whole " purge the heresy" bs from kagha might be a way for her to justify closing the grove. " If they came here, more will come". Also the absolute wants to attack the grove and it has nothing to do with the refugees.

Her actions seem to be a bit unreasonable but with the absolute, bhaal being teased in various notes and the shadow druid thing ... I think there's more to it. I think khaga is not a silly psychopath. She has an objective and she's extremely bad and putting it into place.


Kagha is being manipulated by Olodan who is acting by the beliefs of a BG1 throwback character. Where Olodan comes from or how she managed to just walk into Halsin's circle with her cabal and puppet the interim leader, we don't know. I doubt it will be explained in Act 2 and beyond though. Her story is done.
Posted By: Azarielle Re: Kahga - 28/10/20 08:09 AM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by virion
Kagha's actions seem unreasonable because we don't know her motives yet. But she was trying to achieve something on behalf of shadow's druids . There's a note about it near the encounters with shadows at the swamp.

So the whole " purge the heresy" bs from kagha might be a way for her to justify closing the grove. " If they came here, more will come". Also the absolute wants to attack the grove and it has nothing to do with the refugees.

Her actions seem to be a bit unreasonable but with the absolute, bhaal being teased in various notes and the shadow druid thing ... I think there's more to it. I think khaga is not a silly psychopath. She has an objective and she's extremely bad and putting it into place.


Kagha is being manipulated by Olodan who is acting by the beliefs of a BG1 throwback character. Where Olodan comes from or how she managed to just walk into Halsin's circle with her cabal and puppet the interim leader, we don't know. I doubt it will be explained in Act 2 and beyond though. Her story is done.



If you pass the persuade rolls she tells you the letters just started appearing one day warning her of the immitent goblin threat and how the grove was bound to fall sooner or later, so she took the deal out of desperation to protect her own. To me it seemed like yet another branch of the Absolute wanting the druid circle out of the picture one way or the other. It's true however she just comes off as a psychotic maniac if you fail your persuades.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 28/10/20 08:17 AM
Originally Posted by Azarielle

If you pass the persuade rolls she tells you the letters just started appearing one day warning her of the immitent goblin threat and how the grove was bound to fall sooner or later, so she took the deal out of desperation to protect her own. To me it seemed like yet another branch of the Absolute wanting the druid circle out of the picture one way or the other. It's true however she just comes off as a psychotic maniac if you fail your persuades.


It's going to be a real shocker when we find out everyone we have ever met is secretly working for the Absolute. Isn't it more likely Olodan is just doing what Shadow Druids are apparently known for and is thus working independently? If not then there were two conflicting plans operating at the same time on the Absolute's part.

Three if you count Zevlor, who has been revealed to be a spy through his voice line leak. This might not be in the game anymore though,
Posted By: Azarielle Re: Kahga - 28/10/20 09:54 AM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Azarielle

If you pass the persuade rolls she tells you the letters just started appearing one day warning her of the immitent goblin threat and how the grove was bound to fall sooner or later, so she took the deal out of desperation to protect her own. To me it seemed like yet another branch of the Absolute wanting the druid circle out of the picture one way or the other. It's true however she just comes off as a psychotic maniac if you fail your persuades.


It's going to be a real shocker when we find out everyone we have ever met is secretly working for the Absolute. Isn't it more likely Olodan is just doing what Shadow Druids are apparently known for and is thus working independently? If not then there were two conflicting plans operating at the same time on the Absolute's part.

Three if you count Zevlor, who has been revealed to be a spy through his voice line leak. This might not be in the game anymore though,






Maybe yes maybe no, it doesn't really matter in regard to Kagha - certainly seems like Olodan has some inside knowledge which could probably also be acquired by simply spying or different sort of collaboration (like Zhents).

In the end Kagha is just a person in over her head - consistent with desperate people in desperate circumstances theme of the Druid Grove. Ultimately it all boils down to something similar to "Wyll dilemma" whether or not the end justifies the means and I'm guessing we'll be seeing a lot of that also in regard to our Ilithid powers.

So to me she's actually very well written, once you have the full picture, but as in life you might not always get there, so that's fine too.

Posted By: Nyanko Re: Kahga - 28/10/20 10:08 AM
Khaga is an interesting character because she offers multiple outcomes depending on how the player wants to deal with her. The narration straight up makes her looking quite the villain with the attempt to save the child purposely left behind a steep die roll, even though she's actually not directly involved in her death.

I agree with Azarielle. All things considered, she's a well written character, multilayered and contrived by her allegiances.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 28/10/20 10:16 AM
Originally Posted by Azarielle


In the end Kagha is just a person in over her head - consistent with desperate people in desperate circumstances theme of the Druid Grove. Ultimately it all boils down to something similar to "Wyll dilemma" whether or not the end justifies the means and I'm guessing we'll be seeing a lot of that also in regard to our Ilithid powers.

So to me she's actually very well written, once you have the full picture, but as in life you might not always get there, so that's fine too.


Originally Posted by Nyanko
Khaga is an interesting character because she offers multiple outcomes depending on how the player wants to deal with her. The narration straight up makes her looking quite the villain with the attempt to save the child purposely left behind a steep die roll, even though she's actually not directly involved in her death.

I agree with Azarielle. All things considered, she's a well written character, multilayered and contrived by her allegiances.



I don't agree and think her character does not fit her surroundings but if that is later handwaved away by her or Olodan being an agent of the Absolute then I guess this thread is null and void.
Posted By: Pélagie Re: Kahga - 29/10/20 05:43 AM
I agree with Azarielle. I think Kagha is an interesting, multilayered and well written character. When you first met her you might think she's a Disney villain but if you try to learn more about her motivations you get the picture little by little.
She's fallible, conflicted, credible. I like her character a lot.
My feelings about her have evolved continually through my game, from hate (first meeting with arabella), curiosity (when you deceal some cracks in her), disdain (when you find those notes about the shadows druids) to pity (when you redeem her, talk with her and understand she has been manipulated).

I think she is rather overprotective than purely xenophobic.
What is sure is that she is weak, easily manipulated, despite her stong-willed apparence.

PS: sorry for the mistakes, english is not my first langage smile
Posted By: Worm Re: Kahga - 29/10/20 04:22 PM
I like Kahga as a heel. I think her facial capture work is really good for it. I agree that the food shortage thing is a bit much given the existence of conjure food. I still think the conflict is fine generally.

I feel like the kid should just end up captured and I feel like her being killed is a real lame way to force the player into a conflict he can't handle. I feel like the child dying should be more from some attempt to rescue or failed acrobatics roll or something like that. Though other than that I don't have a huge issue with the conflict, I do have a problem with both sides being surprisingly fine with genocide of the other.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 29/10/20 04:34 PM
Olodan's role in Kagha's story and how the two of them managed to flip grove politics on its head needs to be addressed. Halsin is such a good guy compared to Kagha that it's hard to believe she could turn all of his people around so easily.
Posted By: virion Re: Kahga - 29/10/20 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez


My counterpoint is this line. Does this sound like druids to you? How is the "simple solution" not to help these people on their way?


Based on bg2 lore it's not surprising to see druids in this case where they get corrupted and do stupid shit.

I mean kagha indeed is presented in a very strange way. Like you really need to explore to find yourselves reasons to help her. Even if you are " evil" you're not stupid. Killing refugees from hell (you're evil so for all that matters you don't care if you side with demons) doesn't give you anything. In theory.

But one of the thieflings in the village can give you a soul coin and reveals she's chased by a demon. Raphael gets in contact with you. I can see it coming where in ACT 2 you end up going to Avernus and someone is like " Oh you killed those guys that ran off? We're friends now. "

I remember there was this quest in BG2 with the circle of druids. Same shit, druids going crazy killing everyone around them. Not sure why they were doing it but if i forgot why it must have been something among the lines of ' we are baaaad". The only difference being kagha doesn't kill innocent people. She needs someone else to do it for her. And tbh no one knows if they are innocent.

Clearly Kagha doesn't make it easy to understand her, doesn't let you close enough to start thinking " she might be right". But deep inside her heart she doesn't believe she's right too so ... it makes sense to some extent. It's a really strange quest and I have to admit it feels like something is missing. But I think that's PRECISELY because something is missing. Like the whole city of Baldur's Gate XD
Posted By: Vaell Re: Kahga - 30/10/20 02:13 AM
Originally Posted by pill0ws
In Kahga's defense... these people did literally come from hell. I dont give a shit what your story is, if you are from hell and at my doorstep asking for a place to stay.... I'm gonna tell ya to kick rocks too. You had to do something bad to get to hell in the first place.

That... isn't how it works in D&D. Their very existence is due to demons breeding with other races, primarily humans. Most tieflings have never even seen hell themselves.
Posted By: Warlocke Re: Kahga - 30/10/20 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by virion

I remember there was this quest in BG2 with the circle of druids. Same shit, druids going crazy killing everyone around them. Not sure why they were doing it but if i forgot why it must have been something among the lines of ' we are baaaad". The only difference being kagha doesn't kill innocent people. She needs someone else to do it for her. And tbh no one knows if they are innocent.


There is evidence in Khaga’s chest that she is a disciple of the same circle of shadow druids.
Posted By: Orbax Re: Kahga - 30/10/20 02:34 AM
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by virion

I remember there was this quest in BG2 with the circle of druids. Same shit, druids going crazy killing everyone around them. Not sure why they were doing it but if i forgot why it must have been something among the lines of ' we are baaaad". The only difference being kagha doesn't kill innocent people. She needs someone else to do it for her. And tbh no one knows if they are innocent.


There is evidence in Khaga’s chest that she is a disciple of the same circle of shadow druids.


I think youre forgetting what the internet has made quite clear and this has nothing to do with prior BGs.
Posted By: virion Re: Kahga - 30/10/20 03:45 AM
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by virion

I remember there was this quest in BG2 with the circle of druids. Same shit, druids going crazy killing everyone around them. Not sure why they were doing it but if i forgot why it must have been something among the lines of ' we are baaaad". The only difference being kagha doesn't kill innocent people. She needs someone else to do it for her. And tbh no one knows if they are innocent.


There is evidence in Khaga’s chest that she is a disciple of the same circle of shadow druids.


I think youre forgetting what the internet has made quite clear and this has nothing to do with prior BGs.


Yeah it isn't but remember this was all an answer to "Vhaldez " :p My point is pretty much be it BG3 by Larian or BG2 by Bioware druids were kinda aggressive at first. I'm referencing BG2 cause i don't play tabletop ^^

It didn't surprise me the slightest when i heard what's going on in the grove.
Posted By: N7Greenfire Re: Kahga - 30/10/20 04:11 AM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Olodan's role in Kagha's story and how the two of them managed to flip grove politics on its head needs to be addressed. Halsin is such a good guy compared to Kagha that it's hard to believe she could turn all of his people around so easily.


Well we find out the grove is almost completely out of food. It literally cant support the liefling's any longer meanwhile Halsin is off investigating the parakites
Posted By: Orbax Re: Kahga - 30/10/20 04:26 AM
Originally Posted by virion
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by virion

I remember there was this quest in BG2 with the circle of druids. Same shit, druids going crazy killing everyone around them. Not sure why they were doing it but if i forgot why it must have been something among the lines of ' we are baaaad". The only difference being kagha doesn't kill innocent people. She needs someone else to do it for her. And tbh no one knows if they are innocent.


There is evidence in Khaga’s chest that she is a disciple of the same circle of shadow druids.


I think youre forgetting what the internet has made quite clear and this has nothing to do with prior BGs.


Yeah it isn't but remember this was all an answer to "Vhaldez " :p My point is pretty much be it BG3 by Larian or BG2 by Bioware druids were kinda aggressive at first. I'm referencing BG2 cause i don't play tabletop ^^

It didn't surprise me the slightest when i heard what's going on in the grove.


Haha I was just kidding around!
Posted By: GladeusExMachina Re: Kahga - 30/10/20 07:54 AM
Late to the party, but yeah, Kagha is like two characters packaged into one - a neutral evil facade of ruthlessness, or a neutral slide down the wrong path. I suspect many never side with her in any situation, even when the devs wanted people to explore the more evil potential of the story.

I think this rather overt villainy is to juxtapose an extreme towards the Tieflings. In terms of stereotypes, wood elves are supposed to be free-spirited, good aligned characters, whilst Tieflings are drawn to evil due to their hellish ancestry. Larian have decided to flip the stereotype to create a cartoonishly evil proposition where elves are evil, and a child is held at fang point to prove a point.

The simplest way to fix this is to add other options to diffuse the situation, especially with lower difficulty checks. Propose an alternative punishment like sweeping leaves, actually allow someone with Speak to Animals to persuade the snake (and give the a snake charmer achievement or something), or even allow certain Clerics (there isn't an option for Silvanus or Nature Clerics, though that might change) (or Druids when they get implemented). Curiously enough, Wyll has a slightly different dialogue option, but otherwise doesn't change the DC18 check.

Beyond that, I wouldn't mind having the redeemed Kagha as an optional companion for the party, though that obviously has three problems - the first, is that maybe only a quarter of players will have the option, the second being she doesn't have a tadpole and thus isn't centrally tied to the plot, and third being the voice resources needed to make her relevant when they could focus their efforts on many, many other things.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 30/10/20 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by virion

I remember there was this quest in BG2 with the circle of druids. Same shit, druids going crazy killing everyone around them. Not sure why they were doing it but if i forgot why it must have been something among the lines of ' we are baaaad". The only difference being kagha doesn't kill innocent people. She needs someone else to do it for her. And tbh no one knows if they are innocent.


Mfw BGIII whitewashes druids.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kagha - 31/10/20 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by Reddit
The first time you see Zevlor and Wyll protect the Grove and no one else even tries to protect the Grove too busy doing the Ritual. Even when you convince Kagha to stop the Ritual after exposing her. They still hide in their caves.



Forgot to mention if you never recruit him Wyll just stands at the gate and refuses to defend the Grove a second time. Out of Character.



The only time I see the Druids show up is when you side with the Goblins but to defend their gates nah they will never bother with gate defense even when the Goblins are outside and the Gates gives them a defenders advantage.

Quote
Unfortunately this is MEANT to be - even if you redeem Kahga, all the people that were following her to the Shadow Druids actually still complain at you for stepping into their business, saying that you haven't "swayed them" or that you "shouldn't be messing with Druid business" -- hell, most their idle dialogue is: I'll drive these outsiders out to protect our grove, they shouldn't be here.

They're only curtailed if you kill Kahga without redeeming her, realising the fatal mistake of siding with the Shadow Druids.

I'd like it if Larian made the ones that are Vehemently against her and the Shadow Druids (Rath, the old lady, the Elf that's working with the Bird outside, 1-2 of the younger Druids) join you up top - but as it is now, I'd say about 2/3rds of the Druids actually believe Kagha is right and were looking forward to driving the Tieflings out of their midst.

How did it get to this point? Is Halsin just a terrible but idealistic leader that everyone secretly despises?
Posted By: Tulkash01 Re: Kahga - 31/10/20 12:51 PM
I don't think Kagha needs to be changed. In D&D terms she's someone who's on the brink of a shift of allignment but she's not completely evil yet. You can convince her not to murder the child and later on you can also redeem her if you do things right. In fact I did so twice in the course of 2 different playthroughs.

As it is Kagha is an excellent NPC to have: you can fight her, stop her plans from coming to fruition (free Halsin or steal the idol of Silvanus) or make her see the error of her ways and redeem her before she does anything irredemable. And before hating on her too much keep in mind this game gives you the chance to slaughter all of the refugees, children included, and all of the druids, while alligning yourself with a bloodthirsty band of murderous drows and goblins, an outcome that actually makes Kagha's imminent allignment shift a tad more understandable I believe.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Kahga - 31/10/20 01:55 PM
Originally Posted by Tulkash01
I don't think Kagha needs to be changed. In D&D terms she's someone who's on the brink of a shift of allignment but she's not completely evil yet. You can convince her not to murder the child and later on you can also redeem her if you do things right. In fact I did so twice in the course of 2 different playthroughs.

While that hardly makes her less unlikable, I think people need to come to terms with the fact that she doesn't intentionally "murder the child" as many keep claiming.
The scene is intended as her threatening the girl with a punishment, with the snake being there just as a tool of intimidation... Except things go out of control.
Posted By: Tulkash01 Re: Kahga - 31/10/20 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Tulkash01
I don't think Kagha needs to be changed. In D&D terms she's someone who's on the brink of a shift of allignment but she's not completely evil yet. You can convince her not to murder the child and later on you can also redeem her if you do things right. In fact I did so twice in the course of 2 different playthroughs.

While that hardly makes her less unlikable, I think people need to come to terms with the fact that she doesn't intentionally "murder the child" as many keep claiming.
The scene is intended as her threatening the girl with a punishment, with the snake being there just as a tool of intimidation... Except things go out of control.


Exactly. Not every NPC needs to be likeable, expecially not at first. Kagha MIGHT go down the evil path or MIGHT NOT depending on your party's actions. It just depends on what you want to do with her and the kind of character you want your hero to be.
Posted By: SaurianDruid Re: Kahga - 31/10/20 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco

While that hardly makes her less unlikable, I think people need to come to terms with the fact that she doesn't intentionally "murder the child" as many keep claiming.
The scene is intended as her threatening the girl with a punishment, with the snake being there just as a tool of intimidation... Except things go out of control.


You can also see in her face that she immediately regrets everything when the kid dies. Even with the kind of rough animations the game has right now it looks like she's fighting back tears before she regains control of herself and goes back to putting on a brave face to seem like she's still in charge.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Kahga - 31/10/20 09:17 PM
OP, I have a question about Kagha.
If we take her side and kill the tieflings, and then kill the goblin leaders, will we have a party with the Shadow druids?
Or should we not kill the goblin leaders in this case .. How does the plot evolve if we help the Kahga?
Posted By: Tulkash01 Re: Kahga - 31/10/20 11:05 PM
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by virion

I remember there was this quest in BG2 with the circle of druids. Same shit, druids going crazy killing everyone around them. Not sure why they were doing it but if i forgot why it must have been something among the lines of ' we are baaaad". The only difference being kagha doesn't kill innocent people. She needs someone else to do it for her. And tbh no one knows if they are innocent.


There is evidence in Khaga’s chest that she is a disciple of the same circle of shadow druids.


Actually no. There's just evidence Kagha had been contacted by Shadow Druids from Cloakwood suggesting she could change her alliance to their circle and was almost ready to give in (she can actually do so if you fail to convince her it's a mistake). The person mentioned in the note, Faldorn, was a playable NPC in BG1 (an evil Shadow Druid from the Cloakwood) and an antagonist in BG2. Note that the shadow druids are actually present near Kagha the whole time as they are shapeshifted as 3 mices and only reveal themselves when you present Kagha with evidence of her dealings with them.


About Shadow Druids: they are evil druids that think the only way to preserve the natural order is getting rid of civilization altogether killing people and taking away the means sentient races use to impose their will on the world. They are basically violent ecoterrorists.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: Kahga - 01/11/20 02:53 AM
I think the desire to avoid standard story tropes and to create something 'totally new' that hasn't been done before, is kind of landing them in a cul de sac with this first act.

Throwing Kagha and Shadowdruids at us right out the gate (literally) makes the whole druid narrative rather less interesting than if the same thing happened a bit further down the line. So the first Druid we meet kills a devil kid for no good reason? OK, I guess so. But you know it just lands a bit different with no prior set up.

I had much the same general impression with pet intellect devourer Us in the prologue. Like legit the very first conversation in the game is going for the gross out angle? Alright. I mean I get it, they don't want to do Candlekeep again and be accused of boring writing, but some of this stuff just feels reaching and kinda off the deep end sophomoric. Like "wouldn't it be cool if we inverted every expectation!" Not really lol

Its just a weird way to pitch D&D, especially to new players. Can you imagine if this shit came out in the 80s? Reaganites would have had a field day, like "Obviously Dungeons and Dragons is Satanic. It starts in Hell, and what about the children?!!!" Well they can just fuck right off and die I guess heheh. I'm in no way opposed to a solid Evil arch for Charname's adventures, but without some nuance and a bit of subtlety it just doesn't land like it might otherwise.

I like the Kagha character, I'd take her in the party as a Faldorn 'feed the worms' alt Druid archetype if that was on offer. Join team shadowdruid and wrap it up in thorns! Sure thing, I'm there. But I just think they're trying to cover too much ground right at the beginning. There's no easing into it, like you'd typically see in a campaign designed for new lvl1 characters.

I wish they'd consider a more mundane start, maybe with a prologue to their current prologue (set in Baldur's Gate with an emphasis on lvl1), so new players could enjoy a bit more of the standard Adventure fair before they get launched out a cannon straight into the dark. If this game had to serve as an introduction or primer to D&D, the way the first Baldur's Gate did for many people, its missing a bunch of tried and true hooks.

ps. I dig her hair cut
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kagha



Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Kahga - 01/11/20 03:09 AM
I got through helping Kagha.. yes, we have serious problems with this root.

Kagha looks quite friendly towards MC, even if he is drow (there are special lines).
Zevlor was already killed at the time of the conversation with her, for this they even made a special dialogue option.
On this, work on "Kagha root" ended and the problems began:

1. The task of Kagha is not clear when she says that we should deal with the tieflings after Zevlor's death. I killed everyone, When trying to kill tieflings (the girl's parents), druids become aggressive. I don't understand what she wants from me.
2. Immortal tiefling children ... oh, this looks like a bug, not censorship. Let them just run away somewhere when I start killing adult tieflings, okay?
3. When we go to the camp, there is a note in the journal that the tieflings left the camp.
When we return we see this picture: the children of the tieflings are still in the grove of the druids, and the druids have become aggressive. Not a single dialogue, they are just aggressive and that's it. Why? I helped Kagha!
4. When I killed all the other tieflings and came to the Kagha, there is no option to report it to her.
5. There is no reward for killing tieflings. I would like some simple artifact, the right to visit the grove (we are not refugees, but the guests who helped them), and a potential ally of the Kaga if she meets us in the next acts.
6. No vine has grown, the rite is not complete.
7. We have the label "hiding from the law", it is incorrect, we are enemies of tieflings in the grove of druids but not the law.
8. The lack of an adequate response to my actions from all tieflings

I think a possible "neutral" root was buried here. There is no reason to help Kagha now, it doesn't look like a path - it looks like a dead end.

Perhaps she doesn't need to be a Shadow Druid, just a Druid vying for power with the Khalsin. We already have evil heroes, it should be made neutral.
If we help her, we should have a task from Kagha to resolve the situation with Mintara peacefully (a truly neutral path, or possibly neutral evil depending on the player's decision) or kill the goblin leaders (a neutral good path for lovers of elves and druids, which will be no different from helping the tieflings, except for the fact that on the party will be druids)

In general, there are a lot of things to think about if it won't be difficult for Larian.
The druids can either become Minthar's neutrality/allies, or replace the tieflings at the party - for ex
Larian can remove this possibility altogether, it would be better than leaving the illusion of choice with a dead end.

I don't want this to be an extra waste of resources that can be spent on more important quests, but the Kagha root in the form in which it is in the game is now completely unplayable. At least cosmetic improvements are needed so that there is no feeling of "dead end"

Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 01/11/20 06:00 PM
Thank you for your extensive comment, I will go through everything one subject at a time;

Originally Posted by OneManArmy
On this, work on "Kagha root" ended and the problems began:

1. The task of Kagha is not clear when she says that we should deal with the tieflings after Zevlor's death. I killed everyone, When trying to kill tieflings (the girl's parents), druids become aggressive. I don't understand what she wants from me.
2. Immortal tiefling children ... oh, this looks like a bug, not censorship. Let them just run away somewhere when I start killing adult tieflings, okay?
3. When we go to the camp, there is a note in the journal that the tieflings left the camp.
When we return we see this picture: the children of the tieflings are still in the grove of the druids, and the druids have become aggressive. Not a single dialogue, they are just aggressive and that's it. Why? I helped Kagha!
4. When I killed all the other tieflings and came to the Kagha, there is no option to report it to her.
5. There is no reward for killing tieflings. I would like some simple artifact, the right to visit the grove (we are not refugees, but the guests who helped them), and a potential ally of the Kaga if she meets us in the next acts.
6. No vine has grown, the rite is not complete.
7. We have the label "hiding from the law", it is incorrect, we are enemies of tieflings in the grove of druids but not the law.
8. The lack of an adequate response to my actions from all tieflings
You ran into the bug / feature of certain druids acting as generic guard NPC's responsible for crime handling in the entire grove, not taking into account that they actually hate the Tieflings. Until separate flags are set up for the ritual site area and the caves, this is going to keep popping up like it did in 1, 3 and 7.
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Perhaps she doesn't need to be a Shadow Druid, just a Druid vying for power with the Khalsin. We already have evil heroes, it should be made neutral.
If we help her, we should have a task from Kagha to resolve the situation with Mintara peacefully (a truly neutral path, or possibly neutral evil depending on the player's decision) or kill the goblin leaders (a neutral good path for lovers of elves and druids, which will be no different from helping the tieflings, except for the fact that on the party will be druids)
Can only agree here. Olodan makes things unnescessarily complicated (where did she come from? how did she manipulate the entire grove into following her?). I don't think Minthara would want to cooperate with the druids as Sylvanus is a serious threat in the region for some reason.
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
In general, there are a lot of things to think about if it won't be difficult for Larian.
The druids can either become Minthar's neutrality/allies, or replace the tieflings at the party - for ex
Larian can remove this possibility altogether, it would be better than leaving the illusion of choice with a dead end.

I don't want this to be an extra waste of resources that can be spent on more important quests, but the Kagha root in the form in which it is in the game is now completely unplayable. At least cosmetic improvements are needed so that there is no feeling of "dead end"
There should be at least something for Kagha in the long run, yes. I think she is meant as a one-off character and that druids in general might not even become important again after Act 1, so her character and faction seem irrelevant now.
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I think a possible "neutral" root was buried here. There is no reason to help Kagha now, it doesn't look like a path - it looks like a dead end.
It's not a path, I don't know why people keep saying it is. There are only two paths, the Tieflings and the Goblins. Making Kagha a third path would be great and something I would encourage if Larian does not want to rewrite her.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 01/11/20 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
I think the desire to avoid standard story tropes and to create something 'totally new' that hasn't been done before, is kind of landing them in a cul de sac with this first act.
It had me second guessing myself, I thought I had just misunderstood the portrayal of druids in FR as neutral keepers of balance. All of a sudden they have populist demagogues and xenophobic bigotry and all.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Kahga - 01/11/20 06:13 PM
Yes, if there are two big paths in the first act - tieflings and goblins, Larian can keep the whole point but add cosmetic changes with the help of druids:

After we dealt with Zevlor, Kahga must give us a quest to resolve the situation with the goblins peacefully or hostilely, depending on our decision.

1.) A party with druids after goblin leaders killing (good way). No difference except that there will be druids at the party, and maybe this will open up a one night romantic option with Kahga. Who will become the leader of the druids depends on our decision, we can fulfill Kahga's secret request to deal with Halsin when we find him, or not. I think female characters will get Khalsin at the celebration party, and one night option with him, they will be pleased.

2.) Druids who performed the ritual and transferred the bodies and loot of tieflings to the goblins and a declaration of their support from Minthara (goblin party, evil way).
And Kahga transfer to Minthara information that the captured bear is Khalsin and must be executed. But in comparison with the classic evil way, this one will be more "kind". Minthara congratulates us on killing tieflings and the leader of the druids, and forcing Kahga to recognize her leadership and authority in the region.

If the Druid Grove is sealed and deprived of tiefling support, the goblins will not be able to attack it, and will probably agree to a compromise. In which Kaga will be a vassal in exchange for saving the grove of sylvanus.

From the point of view of game mechanics, it will be much easier to implement the changes above than to give us a third neutral "Kahga path", in the end we get the same result as now. But it will give us a real choice and the freedom of role-playing, not a dead end
Posted By: Kraydenvar Re: Kahga - 01/11/20 07:08 PM
Hmm yeah, that would be the only way I could see the druids convincing the goblins to a neutral path. However, wasn't Minthara's motivation simply show of power through slaughter in the region? She may or may not be able to be reasoned with if that is her motive.
Confronting Kahga about the shadow druids doesn't have a path that works with the shadow druids. They just say kill Tav/PC even if you choose a pro shadow druid dialogue option.
Posted By: SaurianDruid Re: Kahga - 01/11/20 08:48 PM
Out of curiosity, when does Kagha ask you to slaughter all the tieflings? Whenever I've spoken to her the deal is that I help Zevlor and the tieflings leave, not that I murder them all for her.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Kahga - 01/11/20 09:37 PM
I also experienced lol from double standards - when Kagha kills a tiefling child it's ok, no censorship, and when we go to kill tieflings and their children, their children run around with 0 hp and spoil the immersion.
Oh, well, you can still kill goblin children, that's ok and tiefling children aren't ok

I’m not asking for the ability to kill children in the game (I’m not interested), but I don’t like the fact that the game looks bugged due to double censorship standards. I don't care about the tieflings and their children, if they can't be killed, let them all run away from the Druid Grove to be eaten by wolves, so they find a new home or something like that. Or let it be just bags of loot instead of their bodies when I deal fatal damage to them, but not this bug

Posted By: SecondAchaius Re: Kahga - 01/11/20 10:29 PM
From the combination all the plot lines.

It seems to me that Kagha wants to close off the grove so that the shadow druids can have an easier time taking over the grove AND keep safe from goblins. They don't want the tieflings maybe partly due to what happened before with the town descending into hell (these are the tieflings that were part of that.) The druids were conflicted in keeping the tie flings because they just became leaderless and Kagha was a strong figure to band around to (This type of stuff happens) They are leaderless because the goblins captured Halsin. Halsin said that the goblins were causing an imbalance. So as a druid, killing/stopping the goblins is actually GOOD.

The tieflings were bringing in goblins attacks. Thus the tieflings were also causing an imbalance. So Kagha, a member of the shadow druids, decides to close off the grove. If she really was 100% committed to shadow druid ideology, she would've just killed the tieflings herself, but she was trying to radicalize the grove into shadow druids.

Simply put

Refugees from Hell have come to reside in our grove after a pretty large incident concerning Hell.
Leader taken by Goblins
Goblins are attacking trying to kill refugees.
Shadow Druids try to fill vaccum- Blame refugees for goblin attack
PC can either help tieflings or let them die.
Kagha don't care as long as they are gone before they close off the grove so she can take control


Shadow Druids are pretty harsh when it comes to anyone messing with nature. Now imagine a Hellspawn (Which already get bad rep) taking one of your relics. They gonna be pissed.

I don't really understand the disconnect here.

If a certain race of people with a bad rep come to a grove that is being taken over by extremists that believe anything that upsets with nature and balance should be destroyed or leave then I don't find this arc to be too unbelievable personally.
Posted By: Kraydenvar Re: Kahga - 02/11/20 01:17 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I also experienced lol from double standards - when Kagha kills a tiefling child it's ok, no censorship, and when we go to kill tieflings and their children, their children run around with 0 hp and spoil the immersion.
Oh, well, you can still kill goblin children, that's ok and tiefling children aren't ok

I’m not asking for the ability to kill children in the game (I’m not interested), but I don’t like the fact that the game looks bugged due to double censorship standards. I don't care about the tieflings and their children, if they can't be killed, let them all run away from the Druid Grove to be eaten by wolves, so they find a new home or something like that. Or let it be just bags of loot instead of their bodies when I deal fatal damage to them, but not this bug


was off screen though wasnt it ?
Posted By: Traycor Re: Kahga - 02/11/20 02:22 AM
As it is, Kagha is a very mustache-twirling villain. And the Tieflings are overly innocent and good. It should be a difficult choice between who you want to side with. Both parties should seem reasonable, and following either path should offer a satisfying story.

Currently Kagha is I HATE PEOPLE, I MURDER CHILDREN, I WANTS HAVE COUP, I IS VILLAINY!!!! It's all way over the top. Villains like this are expected for small encounters where you need to know almost immediately who the bad guy is and need to feel okay about slaughtering your opponent. But for full on locations like the druid grove, complete with story lines, multiple characters, and evolving plots -- for those we need more complex characters and situations.
Posted By: N7Greenfire Re: Kahga - 02/11/20 02:49 AM
Originally Posted by Traycor
As it is, Kagha is a very mustache-twirling villain. And the Tieflings are overly innocent and good. It should be a difficult choice between who you want to side with. Both parties should seem reasonable, and following either path should offer a satisfying story.

Currently Kagha is I HATE PEOPLE, I MURDER CHILDREN, I WANTS HAVE COUP, I IS VILLAINY!!!! It's all way over the top. Villains like this are expected for small encounters where you need to know almost immediately who the bad guy is and need to feel okay about slaughtering your opponent. But for full on locations like the druid grove, complete with story lines, multiple characters, and evolving plots -- for those we need more complex characters and situations.

You only find it by snooping and reading journal's but the Grove was almost entirely out of food, they literally couldent support the trifling any longer.

All the while during this Halsin is experimenting in secret on the dead drow, and decides to leave for the ruins, caring nothing about the empty food stores
Posted By: Traycor Re: Kahga - 02/11/20 03:02 AM
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
You only find it by snooping and reading journal's but the Grove was almost entirely out of food, they literally couldent support the trifling any longer.

All the while during this Halsin is experimenting in secret on the dead drow, and decides to leave for the ruins, caring nothing about the empty food stores

The no-food angle sounds like great "meat" for the story. Kagha would be 100x more reasonable if she was struggling to feed everyone. "We can't go outside the grove to look for food because of the goblins, and everyone here will starve if these refugees stay. They keep saying they are about to leave. Always about to leave. Are they going to wait until every scrap of food is gone?"

Kagha should also play up more that Halsin abandoned them. She doesn't want to make these hard decisions, but Halsin left her no choice.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Kahga - 02/11/20 03:21 AM
Originally Posted by Traycor
As it is, Kagha is a very mustache-twirling villain. And the Tieflings are overly innocent and good. It should be a difficult choice between who you want to side with. Both parties should seem reasonable, and following either path should offer a satisfying story.

Currently Kagha is I HATE PEOPLE, I MURDER CHILDREN, I WANTS HAVE COUP, I IS VILLAINY!!!! It's all way over the top. Villains like this are expected for small encounters where you need to know almost immediately who the bad guy is and need to feel okay about slaughtering your opponent. But for full on locations like the druid grove, complete with story lines, multiple characters, and evolving plots -- for those we need more complex characters and situations.


It's true. I played a high elf on my first playthrough, and when I saw the elf druids I thought I'd have an interesting choice ... no, no choices for an elf lover. Kagha is bad, not neutral. I had to help the tifflings kill Kagha.

It's strange that tieflings, creatures from hell, are the most positive characters in the first act, is this such a performance against racism from Larian?
Posted By: N7Greenfire Re: Kahga - 02/11/20 03:26 AM
Originally Posted by Traycor
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
You only find it by snooping and reading journal's but the Grove was almost entirely out of food, they literally couldent support the trifling any longer.

All the while during this Halsin is experimenting in secret on the dead drow, and decides to leave for the ruins, caring nothing about the empty food stores

The no-food angle sounds like great "meat" for the story. Kagha would be 100x more reasonable if she was struggling to feed everyone. "We can't go outside the grove to look for food because of the goblins, and everyone here will starve if these refugees stay. They keep saying they are about to leave. Always about to leave. Are they going to wait until every scrap of food is gone?"

Kagha should also play up more that Halsin abandoned them. She doesn't want to make these hard decisions, but Halsin left her no choice.


She mentions it too him if you dont reveal the shadow druids iirc.
Posted By: Traycor Re: Kahga - 02/11/20 05:08 AM
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
Originally Posted by Traycor
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
You only find it by snooping and reading journal's but the Grove was almost entirely out of food, they literally couldent support the trifling any longer.

All the while during this Halsin is experimenting in secret on the dead drow, and decides to leave for the ruins, caring nothing about the empty food stores

The no-food angle sounds like great "meat" for the story. Kagha would be 100x more reasonable if she was struggling to feed everyone. "We can't go outside the grove to look for food because of the goblins, and everyone here will starve if these refugees stay. They keep saying they are about to leave. Always about to leave. Are they going to wait until every scrap of food is gone?"

Kagha should also play up more that Halsin abandoned them. She doesn't want to make these hard decisions, but Halsin left her no choice.


She mentions it too him if you dont reveal the shadow druids iirc.

For it to make an impact, these sorts of struggles should come out in your first conversation with Kagha. Her conflicted gray areas should be apparent right at the beginning so we as a player struggle as well. Otherwise she comes off as a cartoon.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 02/11/20 09:30 AM
Originally Posted by SecondAchaius
From the combination all the plot lines.

It seems to me that Kagha wants to close off the grove so that the shadow druids can have an easier time taking over the grove AND keep safe from goblins. They don't want the tieflings maybe partly due to what happened before with the town descending into hell (these are the tieflings that were part of that.) The druids were conflicted in keeping the tie flings because they just became leaderless and Kagha was a strong figure to band around to (This type of stuff happens) They are leaderless because the goblins captured Halsin. Halsin said that the goblins were causing an imbalance. So as a druid, killing/stopping the goblins is actually GOOD.

The tieflings were bringing in goblins attacks. Thus the tieflings were also causing an imbalance. So Kagha, a member of the shadow druids, decides to close off the grove. If she really was 100% committed to shadow druid ideology, she would've just killed the tieflings herself, but she was trying to radicalize the grove into shadow druids.

Simply put

Refugees from Hell have come to reside in our grove after a pretty large incident concerning Hell.
Leader taken by Goblins
Goblins are attacking trying to kill refugees.
Shadow Druids try to fill vaccum- Blame refugees for goblin attack
PC can either help tieflings or let them die.
Kagha don't care as long as they are gone before they close off the grove so she can take control


Shadow Druids are pretty harsh when it comes to anyone messing with nature. Now imagine a Hellspawn (Which already get bad rep) taking one of your relics. They gonna be pissed.

I don't really understand the disconnect here.

If a certain race of people with a bad rep come to a grove that is being taken over by extremists that believe anything that upsets with nature and balance should be destroyed or leave then I don't find this arc to be too unbelievable personally.
I find it unbelievable that a leader like Halsin could let his grove slip so hard into meme nativist populism, up to the point where even if you help the Tieflings leave and have Halsin discipline Kagha the damage she's seemingly managed to do is irreversible. Is Halsin just full of shit and oblivious to the problems his grove had? How does Olodan facto into this, give that her motivations are just "hail shadow druidry"? Sometimes it feels as though everyone is under the influence of some kind of spell. Not to mention that this makes the shadow druids a totally unrelated evil faction the Absolute's forces can wipe out by accident. Why?
Posted By: Tulkash01 Re: Kahga - 02/11/20 11:12 AM
Originally Posted by SecondAchaius
From the combination all the plot lines.

It seems to me that Kagha wants to close off the grove so that the shadow druids can have an easier time taking over the grove AND keep safe from goblins. They don't want the tieflings maybe partly due to what happened before with the town descending into hell (these are the tieflings that were part of that.) The druids were conflicted in keeping the tie flings because they just became leaderless and Kagha was a strong figure to band around to (This type of stuff happens) They are leaderless because the goblins captured Halsin. Halsin said that the goblins were causing an imbalance. So as a druid, killing/stopping the goblins is actually GOOD.

The tieflings were bringing in goblins attacks. Thus the tieflings were also causing an imbalance. So Kagha, a member of the shadow druids, decides to close off the grove. If she really was 100% committed to shadow druid ideology, she would've just killed the tieflings herself, but she was trying to radicalize the grove into shadow druids.

Simply put

Refugees from Hell have come to reside in our grove after a pretty large incident concerning Hell.
Leader taken by Goblins
Goblins are attacking trying to kill refugees.
Shadow Druids try to fill vaccum- Blame refugees for goblin attack
PC can either help tieflings or let them die.
Kagha don't care as long as they are gone before they close off the grove so she can take control


Shadow Druids are pretty harsh when it comes to anyone messing with nature. Now imagine a Hellspawn (Which already get bad rep) taking one of your relics. They gonna be pissed.

I don't really understand the disconnect here.

If a certain race of people with a bad rep come to a grove that is being taken over by extremists that believe anything that upsets with nature and balance should be destroyed or leave then I don't find this arc to be too unbelievable personally.


A few notes:

-There is a shortage of resources at the grove. The halfling trader mentions this for example, the druids cannot feed the tieflings.
-Tieflings are not "denziens from hell" they are people who have devil blood in their ancestry. A cambion (Mizora and Raphael are cambions and the creatures fighting the Illithids in Avernus are cambions) is someone born directly from the union of a material plane denzien and a devil).
-Shadow Druids simply don't want people of any kind around. They are isolationists who believe nature can only be protected if the world is brought back to a primordial state by any means necessary, which usually means killing people. They don't want the tieflings in the grove not because they are tieflings but simply because they are not shadow druids.
-Kagha is not a Shadow Druid (yet) when you meet her. She's falling for them though. You have the chance to prevent this from happening.
-If you listen to Kagha and read her correspondance with Olodan you learn that Olodan KNEW about the assault on the grove and offered Kagha a way out IF she was willing to bring the grove under the Shadow Druids control. It's very possible the Shadow Druids are part of the conspiracy threatening the Sword Coast.
-Also, Silvanus' Grove is important to the plot. The druids were the ones helping the Selunites stop the forces of Shar years before (check the murals inside the grove). The tadpole is protected by netherese Shadow Magic which was the gift of Shar to the Netherese survivors of Karsus' Folly (the Shadovars). All of this is connected.
Posted By: Dogmatis Re: Kahga - 02/11/20 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Vhaldez


I find it unbelievable that a leader like Halsin could let his grove slip so hard into meme nativist populism, up to the point where even if you help the Tieflings leave and have Halsin discipline Kagha the damage she's seemingly managed to do is irreversible. Is Halsin just full of shit and oblivious to the problems his grove had? How does Olodan facto into this, give that her motivations are just "hail shadow druidry"? Sometimes it feels as though everyone is under the influence of some kind of spell. Not to mention that this makes the shadow druids a totally unrelated evil faction the Absolute's forces can wipe out by accident. Why?



Halsin made some bad calls. I would not say that he is full of shit, but his leadership skills are lacking, or he simply didn't prepare the druids for a scenario were they would be under threat, so when it came down to it the other druids did not know what to do in his absence.

It's the same thing that would happen in any workplace. If the boss/leader leaves without giving proper guidance on how to handle certain situations, things are going to turn into a shit show real quick especially if the second in command is someone as incompetent as Kagha.

Halsin was also probably counting on being back in the Grove and not being absent due to him getting captured.
Posted By: Abits Re: Kahga - 02/11/20 12:12 PM
Helsin sucks it is known (fight me fanboys!!!). The worst first druid ever. But it's not the first case of a druid grove going rogue. Not even the first case of druid grove going rogue in Baldur's Gate games.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 02/11/20 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by Dogmatis
Halsin made some bad calls. I would not say that he is full of shit, but his leadership skills are lacking, or he simply didn't prepare the druids for a scenario were they would be under threat, so when it came down to it the other druids did not know what to do in his absence.

It's the same thing that would happen in any workplace. If the boss/leader leaves without giving proper guidance on how to handle certain situations, things are going to turn into a shit show real quick especially if the second in command is someone as incompetent as Kagha.

Halsin was also probably counting on being back in the Grove and not being absent due to him getting captured.
So Kagha is a discord moderator? 🤔
Posted By: Dogmatis Re: Kahga - 02/11/20 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Dogmatis
Halsin made some bad calls. I would not say that he is full of shit, but his leadership skills are lacking, or he simply didn't prepare the druids for a scenario were they would be under threat, so when it came down to it the other druids did not know what to do in his absence.

It's the same thing that would happen in any workplace. If the boss/leader leaves without giving proper guidance on how to handle certain situations, things are going to turn into a shit show real quick especially if the second in command is someone as incompetent as Kagha.

Halsin was also probably counting on being back in the Grove and not being absent due to him getting captured.
So Kagha is a discord moderator? 🤔



I don't know. That depends on how feasible it would be to get children killed while moderating a disc channel.
Posted By: Bossk_Hogg Re: Kahga - 02/11/20 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Olodan's role in Kagha's story and how the two of them managed to flip grove politics on its head needs to be addressed. Halsin is such a good guy compared to Kagha that it's hard to believe she could turn all of his people around so easily.



The druids arent good though. Charity isnt a tenant of Silvanus, nor is kindness. Their true neutral god doesnt give a shit about others who arent his followers or the forest. Sure, some of his followers might be neutral good, but most are true neutral, some are neutral evil. The neutral and evil ones aren't thrilled to have to deal with a bunch of non-believers sucking up their resources, disrupting their rites, and bringing goblin attacks on them.


It would be interesting to see a tiefling druid in the grove with a hardline stance against the tiefling refugees.
Posted By: SilverSaint Re: Kahga - 02/11/20 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Olodan's role in Kagha's story and how the two of them managed to flip grove politics on its head needs to be addressed. Halsin is such a good guy compared to Kagha that it's hard to believe she could turn all of his people around so easily.



The druids arent good though. Charity isnt a tenant of Silvanus, nor is kindness. Their true neutral god doesnt give a shit about others who arent his followers or the forest. Sure, some of his followers might be neutral good, but most are true neutral, some are neutral evil. The neutral and evil ones aren't thrilled to have to deal with a bunch of non-believers sucking up their resources, disrupting their rites, and bringing goblin attacks on them.


It would be interesting to see a tiefling druid in the grove with a hardline stance against the tiefling refugees.

The problem there is that the Druids aren't doing anything to actually solve the fundamental problems either way. Yeah, sure, they can protect themselves, but being a Druid is about encouraging natures balance-and the shadow weave, illithid invasion, and violent, rapacious society of the goblins all disrupt those. Kagha is just being a complete fool and looking at the safety of herself and hers, instead of addressing the actual task which Silvanus grants the druids powers to fix. Hence why Halsin, who isn't a complete idiot, is off doing stuff that actually helps the Druids purpose, in addition to protecting them.

If the ritual were made in such a way that it at least destroyed the goblins as well, it could be justified as a violent by legitimate solution. Instead of closing off the grove, it causes the entire surrounding area to become violently hostile to everyone, killing all humanoid creatures. Purge the illithid infestation by killing the hosts, purge the goblins, purge them all.

But Kagha isn't a smart, wise, or worthy leader, she's an idiot demagogue whom is pandering to a scared base with a stupid solution that protects them at the expense of actually doing what they are supposed to do. Which, I believe, is part of the intent here.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Kagha - 03/11/20 04:31 AM
Vhaldez: Kagha is bad!
Kagha reaction:
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kagha - 03/11/20 08:28 AM
[Linked Image] You hate to see her come but you love to see her go.

Back on topic though;

Originally Posted by Baldur's Gate 3 Wiki
When the grove was founded, the druids forced hordes of creature, such as goblins, from the land. However in 1490s DR, they came back after being influenced by the Absolute, and other beings flocked to the grove, particularly tieflings. The goblins of the Absolute seized the First Druid, Master Halsin, and Kagha took over in his place, but had very little tolerance for their kind.

One of the young tieflings that came to the grove, Arabella, stole the Idol of Silvanus. Kagha captured the young tiefling thief and had her viper watch over her. She then instructed the druids of the grove to perform the Rite of Thorns to protect their sacred home from other outsiders. In truth she sought to take over as leader of the grove and rededicate it to serve the Shadow Druids.
The more I read up on FR druids, the more confused I get. They forced goblins off their land? What?
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Kagha - 03/11/20 09:41 AM
She is cute in this screenshot

What's wrong with Shadow Druids? I don't understand them, but if I hear that there are some assholes in an RPG game, I always wonder if there is an option to make friends with them
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kagha - 03/11/20 09:44 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
What's wrong with Shadow Druids? I don't understand them, but if I hear that there are some assholes in an RPG game, I always wonder if there is an option to make friends with them
The only thing I can really say is that they are the druid KKK, which I also don't understand. Druids are certainly not good and selfless by definition but roving bands of subversive extremists staging secret coups in unsuspecting groves is just bizarre.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Kagha - 03/11/20 10:05 AM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
What's wrong with Shadow Druids? I don't understand them, but if I hear that there are some assholes in an RPG game, I always wonder if there is an option to make friends with them
The only thing I can really say is that they are the druid KKK, which I also don't understand. Druids are certainly not good and selfless by definition but roving bands of subversive extremists staging secret coups in unsuspecting groves is just bizarre.


The only thing I can say is that I would like to see her and the elves at my party instead of tieflings. (If I decide to play as a good elf in second playthrough)
Although it can be called a neutral root
As a companion, I would not want her, let him sit in her grove. (although she would be much better than Karlach or that halfling werewolf girl on which developers decided to spend resources) But I like the option to start helping her and get a reward in the form of an artifact / party with elves / castescene for one night more than the option with tieflings.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Kagha - 03/11/20 07:02 PM
Let's collect more screenshots with her.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kagha - 08/11/20 09:41 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Let's collect more screenshots with her.
I thought you were Russian, not German. Huh.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Kagha - 08/11/20 12:09 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Let's collect more screenshots with her.
I thought you were Russian, not German. Huh.


That's right, screenshots from the Internet.
Not a bad elf, only her face is evil. Apparently he was specially made so that it was clear that she was cruel. More elves needed
Posted By: Niara Re: Kagha - 08/11/20 01:07 PM
Quick jump in just to say:

A fun irony to how poorly made this whole situation is, is that, if you act in a way that causes the druids to attack the teiflings in an attempt to purge them from the grove (messing with the idol does this - they'll decry you, and then the whole grove pitches into a fight,m druid against tiefling), and stay out of the fight yourself.... the tieflings win. By a very clear margin. Kagha and all of hers, as well as all of the druids that went along with her, attempt to 'purge the foul blood parasites', and they all die, and most of the tieflings survive, and end up talking about the situation, now that the druids are all gone.

Oh, and the absolutely useless racist mercenaries from the intro to the grove, don't fight at all - they leg it at the first sign of conflict.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kagha - 08/11/20 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by Niara
Quick jump in just to say:

A fun irony to how poorly made this whole situation is, is that, if you act in a way that causes the druids to attack the teiflings in an attempt to purge them from the grove (messing with the idol does this - they'll decry you, and then the whole grove pitches into a fight,m druid against tiefling), and stay out of the fight yourself.... the tieflings win. By a very clear margin. Kagha and all of hers, as well as all of the druids that went along with her, attempt to 'purge the foul blood parasites', and they all die, and most of the tieflings survive, and end up talking about the situation, now that the druids are all gone.

Oh, and the absolutely useless racist mercenaries from the intro to the grove, don't fight at all - they leg it at the first sign of conflict.
Lol. The druids can also act as generic area guard NPC's if you attack the tieflings unprovoked, which can cause them to collectively turn hostile against you. Their corpses piled up on the grove stairs in their valiant effort to protect the "parasites" from my wrath.
Posted By: Surface R Re: Kagha - 09/11/20 06:35 AM
I just started a new game and its all even worse. I guess at first play i still had some reservations in my judgement all of it being new and EA.

When you talk to Zevlor after the fight at the gate (which now plays out worse then before as character freeze and slide across terrain and melee hit each other from ten meters away) he says the grove has been attacked by some beasts and Druids are blaming Tieflings for it - while Tieflings were attacked by Gnolls (over by the river) so had to seek refuge in a hurry.

Then there is the Bugbear assassin in hiding - but how is he there while Minthara and the goblins dont know where the Grove is? He got lost?

And there are goblins in that cave you find around the corner after you exit the grove, that leads into the library of the Grove only i guess they didnt think of sending one running back and informing the others.
Sure, they cant get through the traps and want the glory but with other things its a bit too much Absolute forces in or right next to the grove.

While the situation is presumably at the cusp of some resolution because the ritual is already in the process and the refugees must leave like right now, only you can take your time dealing with it all and sleep over for days.
The ritual that will seal the grove into being permanently surrounded by goblins, gnolls and other Absolute forces - about which Druids dont care and dont want to know anything. Because they are biggoted close minded exclusionists - and racists! TLM! TLM!

I cant bring myself to go and relive that awfully written trial again.
Posted By: Ellenhard Re: Kagha - 09/11/20 08:24 AM
Originally Posted by Surface R
I just started a new game and its all even worse. I guess at first play i still had some reservations in my judgement all of it being new and EA.

When you talk to Zevlor after the fight at the gate (which now plays out worse then before as character freeze and slide across terrain and melee hit each other from ten meters away) he says the grove has been attacked by some beasts and Druids are blaming Tieflings for it - while Tieflings were attacked by Gnolls (over by the river) so had to seek refuge in a hurry.

Then there is the Bugbear assassin in hiding - but how is he there while Minthara and the goblins dont know where the Grove is? He got lost?

And there are goblins in that cave you find around the corner after you exit the grove, that leads into the library of the Grove only i guess they didnt think of sending one running back and informing the others.
Sure, they cant get through the traps and want the glory but with other things its a bit too much Absolute forces in or right next to the grove.

While the situation is presumably at the cusp of some resolution because the ritual is already in the process and the refugees must leave like right now, only you can take your time dealing with it all and sleep over for days.
The ritual that will seal the grove into being permanently surrounded by goblins, gnolls and other Absolute forces - about which Druids dont care and dont want to know anything. Because they are biggoted close minded exclusionists - and racists! TLM! TLM!

I cant bring myself to go and relive that awfully written trial again.


We can explain most of it in our heads, theoretically...

Zevlor is overreacting at some words, said by some druid who did not know exactly the situation he/she spoke of;
Bugbear just now found his target, and was unable to get back to Minthara because he decided to take out the lone tiefling first and get back to goblin camp later with another kill;
Yes, the grove is almost found and only our party stops the danger (a good thing we can influence this in my book... if those little achievements of relieving the grove from goblin scout forces are being acknowledged by the game, unlike now);

Yet I refuse to explain the problem created by "we can take time for a long rest as much as you want, the situation with ritual and tadpole and parties looking for us, the survivors with an important weapon - wouldn't change". I second the notion it isn't written good enough for now.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kagha - 09/11/20 09:58 AM
Originally Posted by Surface R
The ritual that will seal the grove into being permanently surrounded by goblins, gnolls and other Absolute forces - about which Druids dont care and dont want to know anything. Because they are biggoted close minded exclusionists - and racists! TLM! TLM!
This. The writing sets the tieflings up as paragons of virtue to beat you over the head with a message nobody was going to question anyway. They cannot make the tieflings more "evil" or that message is muddied, but they also cannot do anything about the druids' perspective because the ritual is not going to do anything for them. How is some bramble going to protect them from fire?
Posted By: Surface R Re: Kagha - 09/11/20 03:35 PM
If you have to invent stuff in your head to patch, excuse, cover up or minimize what the game or story writing is telling you... Its not good writing you are experiencing.
Sure we have to go over some details and moments in almost every story, game or a movie but this is a whole big part of the very start of the game an its main plot, not some minor side quest.

And its not just minor details but he whole of it.
If it was a multifaceted dice, every way you would turn it, it would result in roll fail.

Its not just about the bramble and fire, maybe its magical and it can withstand fire. The point is the Druids have no idea how long that state can last and worse - they dont even want to know - and worse, you cant even point this out to any of them. They can be closing themselves for years, maybe for centuries - and preventing themselves from doing anything about those outside forces in any way. And of course, its not like Druids are supposed to only protect their small grove and let the world burn.

The writers know that the player will affect the situation one way or another - and you betraying the Druids only makes Kagha plan all the more stupid an absurdly naive - but the Druids themselves have no idea you will remove the threat - and they are not interested in even asking you to investigate what the threat really is, or to do anything about it. They are just braindead focused on "its the refugees fault! get them out and then everything is going to be great!" although they have no evidence, not even any hint the attacks are happening only because of the refugees - they just apparently assumed so... and thats it.
Which is just utterly idiotic and not true as we discover ourselves too.

Halsin apparently figured out something else is going on and went to investigate with that band of adventurers - but it was all done on the hush hush, with only him and Nettie involved in it... but why the fuck would the Archdruid do that? Why would he investigate strange tadpole discovered in an attack on the Druids - like its a secret mission other druids shouldn't know about? Why do it alone? Why not alert the others, especially if there is some kind of stupid plot of inside takeover run by Kagha, that there are outside forces in play that may be a threat to everyone and the whole region, to unite them and prepare them to be vigilant and to fight if necessary. Why not use the whole nature around the grove to spy and collect information - the whole forest is full of eyes that crawl, fly, swim and skitter around. Its not like those first few villages are far away either!

- the goblins inside the tunnel/cave already talk about how rats may be spying for druids, and apparently some rats inside the grove are connected to the shadowdruid side, the druid woman sends a bird to search for Halsin, etc, etc etfc.

The more you probe the very surface of this whole quest the more it unravels and worse and worse it gets. The more inane and illogical and absurd it gets.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kagha - 11/11/20 09:03 PM
I'm worried they will use Halsin's neglect of his grove as a narrative vehicle to set up
why he stabbed Ketheric Thorm's daughter (IIRC) with a glaive and created the shadow curse by accident.
In my opinion this sours our perspective of him as a character because he did something before the game even started, which is bad narrative practice.
Posted By: Svalr Re: Kagha - 11/11/20 10:34 PM
Did anyone else feel like ...

Kagha changed her mind too easily?
It was too simple to convince her to turn against the Shadow Druids, she's so fickle.
Posted By: Surface R Re: Kagha - 11/11/20 10:58 PM
I could not care less about Balsin if i tried. He is a non entity as far as am concerned. Im gonna push him into some deep hole the first chance i get.

Kagha changing her mind so easily is just another symptom of horrible writing of that whole section. Because the writers dont want to really condemn the "druids" or Kagha, but instead sort of sit on two chair at once, which is why you cant talk to anyone about any of the immediately obvious logically following additions, extensions and any sort of underlying reasons or motivations. Or anything.

Today while playing a new game i got into the grove inner sanctum from the caves with goblins. Went into the library, opened the section where the drow corpse is, looted most of Netties room. Then i chugged the invisibility potion, thinking to pickpocket that missing tile to open the basement, but as soon as i stepped into the room where Kagha was holding the trial - sneaking and invisible - the game took me out of invisibility and just pushed me into the trial.

Fuck that kind of game design.
Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: Kagha - 12/11/20 03:06 AM
Originally Posted by Surface R
I could not care less about Balsin if i tried. He is a non entity as far as am concerned. Im gonna push him into some deep hole the first chance i get.

Kagha changing her mind so easily is just another symptom of horrible writing of that whole section. Because the writers dont want to really condemn the "druids" or Kagha, but instead sort of sit on two chair at once, which is why you cant talk to anyone about any of the immediately obvious logically following additions, extensions and any sort of underlying reasons or motivations. Or anything.

Today while playing a new game i got into the grove inner sanctum from the caves with goblins. Went into the library, opened the section where the drow corpse is, looted most of Netties room. Then i chugged the invisibility potion, thinking to pickpocket that missing tile to open the basement, but as soon as i stepped into the room where Kagha was holding the trial - sneaking and invisible - the game took me out of invisibility and just pushed me into the trial.

Fuck that kind of game design.



I can say that happens VERY rarely. I've done a ton of sneaking around and invisible stalking around in this game, and it almost never forces you into a cutscene which breaks your stealth. Kagha is one of the few exceptions.
Posted By: Surface R Re: Kagha - 12/11/20 05:01 AM
I was talking about this specific case - in a thread that is about this specific quest line and character - NOT about the whole game. So i dont see any point in your reply.
And its not a cutscene.
Posted By: Bleeblegum Re: Kagha - 12/11/20 07:54 AM
Originally Posted by Surface R
I could not care less about Balsin if i tried. He is a non entity as far as am concerned. Im gonna push him into some deep hole the first chance i get.

Kagha changing her mind so easily is just another symptom of horrible writing of that whole section. Because the writers dont want to really condemn the "druids" or Kagha, but instead sort of sit on two chair at once, which is why you cant talk to anyone about any of the immediately obvious logically following additions, extensions and any sort of underlying reasons or motivations. Or anything.

Today while playing a new game i got into the grove inner sanctum from the caves with goblins. Went into the library, opened the section where the drow corpse is, looted most of Netties room. Then i chugged the invisibility potion, thinking to pickpocket that missing tile to open the basement, but as soon as i stepped into the room where Kagha was holding the trial - sneaking and invisible - the game took me out of invisibility and just pushed me into the trial.

Fuck that kind of game design.

Yea for a game that claims to be allowing infinite player choice there is far too much railroading in this act. I'm still blown away by the fact that we can't avoid the fight at the gate against the goblins even if we want to side with them from the start!
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kagha - 12/11/20 09:25 AM
Originally Posted by Bleeblegum
Yea for a game that claims to be allowing infinite player choice there is far too much railroading in this act. I'm still blown away by the fact that we can't avoid the fight at the gate against the goblins even if we want to side with them from the start!
The game's morality seems very stacked against Goblins and in favour of Tieflings. The druid circle itself exemplifies this; they see Tieflings as unnatural abominations but still give them shelter in the grove, while not even stopping and thinking about the totally natural Goblin population. As Halsin says, you have to care about all of Sylvanus' creatures, but Goblins are really far down that list.
Posted By: FelLich Re: Kagha - 12/11/20 08:34 PM
I'm ignorant of general D&D lore but aren't goblins more or less just a bunch of savages? Kind of dumb, tendency for violent solutions not really all that diplomatic. You're definitely railroaded as the story currently is, but goblins don't exactly strike me as ever being much more than pawns for someone else. In which case killing their leadership (Tadpole crew) "saves" them since they'd probably calm down with the massive mobilization against the other locals. The Teiflings, they're straight up refugee stereotype so it'd be hard to see them as anything other than sympathetic. Regarding Kagha, the killing of the kid comes across more as a fuck up on her part. An aside, I don't really care about the kid dying in so far as it's inconvenient when dealing with the general grove issues. I mean even with the grove invasion I view it more as a pain to have to go around finding every Teifling to kill rather than the killing themselves being bad/evil. Back to Kagha, she wants to be tough and naturally takes it too far if you don't step in. This is also made more clear by her whole dealing with the shadow druids where they sold her a bit and she thought it was the right thing to do. Sealing off the grove is obviously an extreme measure but it's not absurd to believe someone would pursue it and probably hints that she's generally afraid (see real life). It's also not all that wild that you can talk her out of it as while she certainly is headstrong she also seems susceptible to charismatic people. After all to convince her to back off from the kid and abandoning the Shadows requires some good (lucky) charisma, if Halsin returns she also backs down really quickly.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kagha - 12/11/20 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by FelLich
I'm ignorant of general D&D lore but aren't goblins more or less just a bunch of savages? Kind of dumb, tendency for violent solutions not really all that diplomatic. You're definitely railroaded as the story currently is, but goblins don't exactly strike me as ever being much more than pawns for someone else. In which case killing their leadership (Tadpole crew) "saves" them since they'd probably calm down with the massive mobilization against the other locals. The Teiflings, they're straight up refugee stereotype so it'd be hard to see them as anything other than sympathetic.
The idea is that Tieflings are unnatural (extraplanar) and Goblins are natural (from Faerûn). I have to admit that when we start factoring in that druids can talk to animals and most of them are more intelligent than Goblins, things start getting a little confusing. You can have intricate conversation with a bear, but a Goblin is always a stereotypical working class Londoner. The Goblins have also taken up worshiping the Absolute, which upset their natural place under Maglubiyet's control. There is even a Maglubiyet priest held captive in the Goblin camp.

None of the druids act like human beings during this quest. At least, if we assume that Halsin taught them his values. If he somehow ignored the fact that his entire grove is a bunch of xenophobic bigots that just needed a reason to hate, I sure hope they explain that later down the line.
Posted By: Surface R Re: Kagha - 12/11/20 09:38 PM
Those issues should be decided based on such generalizations but on actual behavior of each group as we experience it. Goblins are not enemies because they are "a bad race" they are enemies because they are attacking and trying to kill everyone except True Souls. Refugees cannot be considered a single mind hive group, because they consist of many different personalities - who use to be ordinary people in Elturel. They are not enemies simply because they are not attacking anyone.
And they cannot be held responsible for attacks by a completely different third fing party.

They can be held responsible as a sort of obvious stupid mistake - made by stupid idiots who dont even want to consider any other reason because they are apparently braindead, but not in a way where the player is prevented of even mentioning it, asking why would anyone think that, or pointing out to the Druids that hey... you are getting attacked with or without refugees around.

The problem is not that the Druids "hate the refugees" - the problem is that they are blaming them for the attacks from a completely separate force - based on nothing! Which is beyond idiotic. If the situation was normal then maybe the Druids could say, "Ach, those are all hellspawn! We dont want them in our grove! Get out you devils!" like any other normal xenophobe and person frightened of "devils" would. But thats not the situation.

The "devils" angle is barely mentioned at all, even if it doesnt make any sense in this specific situation - why - because the third force attacking all of them has nothing to do with it!
And the refugees dont want to stay in the Grove at all. They want to get out of there. But cant because they will all be killed - by the third force. A force that will not leave druids alone after they are done with the refugees. The force that is attacking and killing everyone in the area.

Ive said this already at least five times...
Posted By: Bossk_Hogg Re: Kagha - 12/11/20 10:29 PM
Originally Posted by Svalr
Did anyone else feel like ...

Kagha changed her mind too easily?
It was too simple to convince her to turn against the Shadow Druids, she's so fickle.


It requires 2 checks if memory serves, on top of finding the evidence and confronting her about it (which is gated behind a perception check). How many hoops do you want to jump through to get to the fireworks factory?
Posted By: FelLich Re: Kagha - 12/11/20 10:55 PM
Halsin seems more "worldly" while the rest of grove, or about 90% of them, are introverts and xenophobic. Halsin allowed the Teiflings refuge while several members of the grove were, silently, against it. Since Halsin was/is the Arch Druid there was no questioning this decision even if many were against it. Once he ran off to save the world and got himself captured Kagha took the reins and so the xenophobia was now permitted to be expressed publicly. Now the dislike for outsiders may have always been there, or the shadow druids may have been fanning the xenophobia within the entire grove rather than just Kagha. Of course, if this is the case, then Larian may need to better flesh this out through secondary options such as conversations between characters, notes and other such things. Realistically there doesn't actually have to be concrete facts for people to hate a group of outsiders even if they have nothing to do with the current issue, there just has to be an issue and someone to aim the blame. After all once they force out the Teiflings and enact the ritual they don't have to care about the outside world, so those demonkin gotta go.

A question that could be better explained is how well Halsin managed his grove. I mean going by what we have so far, he's done a shit job of it. He bailed as soon as he heard about the underground fort/temple and he joins our merry little band if we save the grove. There really doesn't seem to be much concern on his part about what happens in the Grove. He seems far more interested in the larger issue of dark magic saturating the land around Moonrise tower. If it turns out he's been focusing more on this big picture issue rather than his Grove that would explain why the xenophobia had become so prevalent.

I wouldn't say the Teiflings are a hivemind, they're a fairly diverse group, it's simply that they aren't a bunch of little shits towards you no matter what you do. Currently, personally, the most satisfying outcome with that grove is killing most of the druids(99.9% of them) then wiping out the goblins. Most definitely not a good guy go but damn are those druids annoying.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kagha - 13/11/20 08:22 PM
There is now a thread to make a neutral path for Kagha.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Kahga - 14/11/20 12:07 AM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Demoulius

That said people often confuse druids who roleplay their alignment and neutrality well. They have alot of things that they dont care about and some things they care about to the degree that they would kill people for transgressing on it. I dont think 'druids have to be some form of neutral' is still in the game for PC's but generally thats how they were always portrayed.


Druids care about nature and their grove so they would be upset if someone upset that balance. They are also rational beings who can understand that the Tieflings have a concrete option to get out of their hair if they would actually bother to help them. If you "side with" the druids now Kagha encourages you to genocide the refugees because she is xenophobic and part of a hate group. That is bad writing.

Originally Posted by Demoulius

If id have to voice a complaint it would be that to many of the druids inside the grove (where you find her threatening the child) have no issues with it whatsoever. THAT is abit off. Them respecting her rank is 1 thing but seeing no problem with it another.


This plays into that idea that the other druids are scared of the refugees destroying their livelihood (even though the Halfing trader is fine with them) and look to Kagha the demagogue for easy answers. I don't understand how they think Kagha is doing what is needed had you not conveniently showed up to do it for her, since she never undertakes anything against the Tieflings on her own initiative.


Some things to clarify there. Some druid care about balance. Others are the embodiment of the furies of nature. The Druids of Malar for example delights in to hunting and murdering sensient being in ritual hunts and most of them are even were creature. Khaga is two things. An High Elf (Or sun elf) that by nature are very Elitist and not open toward outsiders and is also more Alligned toward the Shadow Druids the shadow Druids are problematic and often are also very cruel and unforgiving as for them outsiders are always a threat to be dealt with. Now combine this two things and you have Khaga a Druid that wants to protect her circle at all costs even at the price to eliminate the refugees that she sees as threat. Stealing an idol is always a grave offence for a normal druid but for a Shadow Druid? Steal an idol from them is a death sentence.
Khaga represent the extremist druids that believe it or not are not a rarity in the Forgotten Realms and they can also stay in a Druidic circle with other Druids that don't share her point of view.

Now Tiefling. They don't come from HELL or the Abyss. They are not Devils nor Demons they are just poor sod that have Demonic or Devil blood most of them even Indirectly. You don't become a Tiefling you are born as one. They grew up not trusted or even rejected by civilization in many cases because of the Heritage they have. But they don't are necessarily evil they can become evil but most of the time is for their hard life rather than their Lineage. They are often the Underdog and not by choice but because of prejudice. Yes some of them can become evil by direct Lineage influence but most of them are just people that happen to have ancestry with a Demon or a Devil
Posted By: Rieline Re: Kahga - 14/11/20 12:38 AM
Originally Posted by Surface R
Of curse countries in our Medieval times had borders. They were fing kingdoms. Countries had borders since first countries were invented.
They may not have been as precisely defined and marked as modern ones but they sure existed and people sure did get pissed off about them and other dirty foreigners getting into places where they dont belong.

Thats not the problem here. The problem is that the reason why there is animosity towards refugee Tieflings - by Druids is never explained in a way that would make any sense in this setting and its lore. Especially in the situation where a third force is attacking everyone. This is not a case of Earth borders and politics and problems, modern ones or historic ones.

The whole sub plot is based only on vapid extremely superficial generalizations without any background or any specifics, and the same kind of blunt cheap generalizations are used in the trial. The player is never allowed to argue or ask or point out the most obvious issues about the whole deal.


Khaga idea is this: Once the refugees are gone, whichever way - she can cast the big ritual and seal the Grove, mkay?

Well... okay, bu that immediately raises several really obvious questions.

1. If the ritual will protect the grove... why doesnt she just do it and protect everyone?

2. If the refugees are creating any issue why that could not work...like maybe there isnt enough food for everyone, why are we never told anything about it and we cant even ask about it.

3. Obviously - a druid grove should not suffer from any food problems even with refugees around.

4. Why does anyone think that attacks are happening only because of refugees? Is that based on any info at all? Where the F did they get that idea?

5. Wouldn't Druids be extremely miffed about bands of Goblins killing everything and burning and destroying everything they can around them?

6. If Khaga is a Shadow Druid and if that isnt just used to show "she is evil" - then she should consider everyone enemies. Especially the Goblins.

7. If the Grove is sealed from the outside - doesnt that mean all the Druids would be trapped inside and unable to do anything about a Goblin army ravaging the whole area?

8. Do they want to stay sealed inside the Grove... forever?

9. Wouldnt they want to know more about this army thats attacking everyone?


... And on and on and on , these kinds of questions never stop because the whole situation setup is done so badly it cannot exist unless all these considerations are simply removed and not allowed to be considered.

And the trial is even worse. The player never even gets a chance to ask about any of these most basic and obvious considerations.


So i played in the Forgotten realms since the second edition i can explain some things:
1) Usually when such ritual is done is to protect the specific druidic circle. Druidic circles often are zone in the wilderness where there is a Mystical force usually dependant on a natural artifact or simply tied of one of the nature Gods ((in this case the Artifact of Silvanus) normally any druidic circle will forbhid the access even close to a zone like that if not for very specific and lack of choices cases. And the artifact was stolen that was a great offence enough for any druid figures a Shadow Druid like Khaga they are very extremist.

2)For the druid the concept of food and suvivability is tied also with local natural resources. THe refugees are many and they require a lot of food. They would hunt around for wild animals to feed theyrself if allowed to stay permanently they will cut trees and plant crops ruining the natural fauna and flora and the echosystem of the place that is in part already proved considering we have a village not much distant from it.

3)Wrong. Druids use divine powers to create food even with that sort of spell is not something they can abuse that would bring down the balance they strive for. Nor they can allow the refugees to deplete the natural resources around.

4)It is a common staple of the druidic circles. A stranger is a potential trouble. Many stranger is a potential threat. Not to mention those strangers were seeking shelter from the druid. The old Archdruid accepted this because he represent the more tollerant druid part. However more numbers more attention. More attention more dangers for theyr sacre circle.

5)Goblin are not considered inherently a threat by Druid per se. Unless those goblins are attacking them directly however Goblin are often seen by druid as part of nature as well as they have a tribal society and not a civilized one. Goblins don't make crops nor build cities they just live in the wilderness and are opportunistic in nature. A goblin pack would hardly attack a druidic circle is more like to prey on paesants or adventurers attacking in numbers.

6)Again for shadow druids and also for normal Druid goblins are seen like creature that despite of everything live with nature as they have primitive tribal society. They would accept more gladly a tribe of Goblin nearby than a pack of people that want to get settled also the goblin of this story are not acting natural they are driven forward and bold by this faith of the absolute. Goblins usually prey in easy targets.

7)Is a ritual of isolation quite common in to Druidic traditions. Is a Ritual that isolate the circle that protects the relic and preserve the heart of the druidic circle. Usually Druids rely in this ritual to shield theyr Circle from danger. They can just do that allow the situation to unfold with the time and then resume the ritual to open the circle again.

8)Not forever. But theyr priority is preserve the druidic Circle probably they will be sealed inside till will be more safe for them to break the seal.

9)On normal circumstance they could. However since a Shadow Druid was chosen as the second Archdruid while the other was away that priority changed. The old Archdruid actually was out seeking answers he also examinated the tadpole and got attacked by a drow that was infected by it. This also answer why they are so on edge at what is happening round. They have the refugees then they had a Nautiloid crashing nearby the groove. On top of that the old Archdruid was attacked by a drow infected with a tadpole. This combination of circumstances is already aggravating a situation that was hard to start with.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 14/11/20 09:44 AM
Originally Posted by Rieline
Some things to clarify there. Some druid care about balance. Others are the embodiment of the furies of nature. The Druids of Malar for example delights in to hunting and murdering sensient being in ritual hunts and most of them are even were creature. Khaga is two things. An High Elf (Or sun elf) that by nature are very Elitist and not open toward outsiders and is also more Alligned toward the Shadow Druids the shadow Druids are problematic and often are also very cruel and unforgiving as for them outsiders are always a threat to be dealt with. Now combine this two things and you have Khaga a Druid that wants to protect her circle at all costs even at the price to eliminate the refugees that she sees as threat. Stealing an idol is always a grave offence for a normal druid but for a Shadow Druid? Steal an idol from them is a death sentence.
Khaga represent the extremist druids that believe it or not are not a rarity in the Forgotten Realms and they can also stay in a Druidic circle with other Druids that don't share her point of view.

Now Tiefling. They don't come from HELL or the Abyss. They are not Devils nor Demons they are just poor sod that have Demonic or Devil blood most of them even Indirectly. You don't become a Tiefling you are born as one. They grew up not trusted or even rejected by civilization in many cases because of the Heritage they have. But they don't are necessarily evil they can become evil but most of the time is for their hard life rather than their Lineage. They are often the Underdog and not by choice but because of prejudice. Yes some of them can become evil by direct Lineage influence but most of them are just people that happen to have ancestry with a Demon or a Devil


I'm aware of all of these things but at times it seems as though the narrative is not. Kagha is an extremist Shadow Druid and her followers are at various stages down that road, but this used to be Halsin's grove. He has a polar opposite philosophy, how did Kagha manage to turn that around in an indeterminate amount of time? How is seemingly no one aware of the potential threat of Shadow Druid infiltration in the first place, considering their grove's belief system 180'ed possibly overnight?

As for the Tieflings; if that is indeed the case, why even view them as unnatural in the first place? It makes for an uncomfortable analogue to have your (Black and Asian) "refugee race" be literally blood-cursed...
Posted By: Rieline Re: Kahga - 14/11/20 02:42 PM
The old Archdruid when you meet him explain that the circle lost his way. Probably it was a process that was started even before the Refugee arrival. That Circle has also a particular story on the past. If you examinate the slates you can see the place had a very problematic past. I assume what Khaga did was slowly convincing the other druids and bring them to her side. Also not all extremists druids are Shadow Druid. Consider that Sylvanus is not a good oriented God is a Neutral one. You can meet Sylvanus druids leaning toward being good like ones leaning toward evil. In a circle there are various individuals what it matters is what they follow despite if they are good persons or not.

They are seen as Innatural because fiends ((Demon and Devil)) are not native from the material plane Tieflings having Devil or Demonic blood have an heritage that comes from the lower planes ((Abyss and The nine Hells)) so are often seen as creature with Hellish or Abyssal blood and many assume they are evil. The story also take place after Elturel ((one of the cities close to Baldur's gate)) was actually taken from the material plane and dragged in to the Avernums ((that is one of the layers of the Nine Hells)) this also explain further how is bad the situation for Tieflings. People are superstitious.
Posted By: Surface R Re: Kahga - 14/11/20 03:24 PM
That may well be but its never actually provided as the reason of mistrust. Nor did the possible lack of food.
Both which are solved by enabling the refugees to do what they actually want to do - hit the road to Baldurs Gate. Which they cant do because of the Absolute forces. That druids hilariously just dont care about and apparently cant even think about.

Rieline,

The fact that the stealing of the Silvanus idol is serious offense to the Druids is not in dispute. The reason why it was stolen and intentional removal of all obvious common sense dialogue options about it - is.

The druids dont just have to create food magically, and there is no need for "depletion of natural resources" - not in the least because Druids can teach others how to grow food without depleting the natural resources. They can use their magic and nature knowledge to help people grow food faster, better. There is a whole godamn river right next to the grove. And the point is - the situation is not an ordinary situation - and the refugees dont want to stay there.

The threat and danger to the grove literally dont have anything to do with the refugees. At best its a misunderstanding - with plenty of direct evidence against it, including the attack on the gates and all other attacks and destruction in the area. Including the attack on the Archdruid showing its not just goblins behaving as usual - only he keeps that a secret from the rest. Except Nettie but she doesnt say anything to anyone either so its irrelevant in this sense. The goblins are not to be considered a threat just because they are goblins - but because they are a part of attacks on the whole area and the grove.

Closing the grove in this situation would have very specific consequences - if the player doesnt intervene. Not any good ones. Its the opposite of what should be done and exposes the grove to eventual destruction.
Because its not just goblins behaving as usual. Not to mention that putting that kid in a jail is directly opposite to what Kagha apparently wants.

And so on...
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 14/11/20 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by Surface R
That may well be but its never actually provided as the reason of mistrust. Nor did the possible lack of food.
Both which are solved by enabling the refugees to do what they actually want to do - hit the road to Baldurs Gate. Which they cant do because of the Absolute forces. That druids hilariously just dont care about and apparently cant even think about.
And this is what ruins the narrative for me. There is a solution in sight that should not involve an outside agent like the player at all but the druids are so xenophobic that they refuse to look beyond the borders of their little grove and help the Tieflings leave. Zevlor even hilariously shouts out "we were just about to LEAVE!!!" when the Goblin assault you. Like, okay? Leave then? Last time I asked you you charged at me...
Posted By: N7Greenfire Re: Kahga - 14/11/20 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by Surface R
That may well be but its never actually provided as the reason of mistrust. Nor did the possible lack of food.
Both which are solved by enabling the refugees to do what they actually want to do - hit the road to Baldurs Gate. Which they cant do because of the Absolute forces. That druids hilariously just dont care about and apparently cant even think about.

Rieline,

The fact that the stealing of the Silvanus idol is serious offense to the Druids is not in dispute. The reason why it was stolen and intentional removal of all obvious common sense dialogue options about it - is.

The druids dont just have to create food magically, and there is no need for "depletion of natural resources" - not in the least because Druids can teach others how to grow food without depleting the natural resources. They can use their magic and nature knowledge to help people grow food faster, better. There is a whole godamn river right next to the grove. And the point is - the situation is not an ordinary situation - and the refugees dont want to stay there.

The threat and danger to the grove literally dont have anything to do with the refugees. At best its a misunderstanding - with plenty of direct evidence against it, including the attack on the gates and all other attacks and destruction in the area. Including the attack on the Archdruid showing its not just goblins behaving as usual - only he keeps that a secret from the rest. Except Nettie but she doesnt say anything to anyone either so its irrelevant in this sense. The goblins are not to be considered a threat just because they are goblins - but because they are a part of attacks on the whole area and the grove.

Closing the grove in this situation would have very specific consequences - if the player doesnt intervene. Not any good ones. Its the opposite of what should be done and exposes the grove to eventual destruction.
Because its not just goblins behaving as usual. Not to mention that putting that kid in a jail is directly opposite to what Kagha apparently wants.

And so on...

The Grove strait up cant support the Tieflings, the druids were living in balence with nature before they showed up, they cant just conjure infinite food.

Then Olodin tells Kagha about the Absolute's forces mustering, she really didn't have any option but to kick the teiflings out
Posted By: Rieline Re: Kahga - 14/11/20 06:33 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Surface R
That may well be but its never actually provided as the reason of mistrust. Nor did the possible lack of food.
Both which are solved by enabling the refugees to do what they actually want to do - hit the road to Baldurs Gate. Which they cant do because of the Absolute forces. That druids hilariously just dont care about and apparently cant even think about.
And this is what ruins the narrative for me. There is a solution in sight that should not involve an outside agent like the player at all but the druids are so xenophobic that they refuse to look beyond the borders of their little grove and help the Tieflings leave. Zevlor even hilariously shouts out "we were just about to LEAVE!!!" when the Goblin assault you. Like, okay? Leave then? Last time I asked you you charged at me...


It makes sense if you think about it. They just reiceved an attack so for them is the worst possible moment to leave the safety of the Groove and hit the road. Would be a potential suicidie. Druids always care about theyr own agenda. And is always paramount to them to keep going at it does not matter what happens around them till they are under a direct threat. And even then Khaga decided to isolate the grove. It is perfectly in lore and in character considering also how extremist Khaga is. Also Khaga is getting a lot of influence in the circle that for the majority supports her decision. Is also the reason why the archdruid decides to call an outsider to name as Archdruid he wants to restore the circle to be less extremist. It is clear that particular Circle is shifty slowly to the ways of the Shadow Druids.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 14/11/20 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by Rieline
Is also the reason why the archdruid decides to call an outsider to name as Archdruid he wants to restore the circle to be less extremist.
Halsin even says that this is a great idea as the grove needs a neutral, total ousider to take over but I can't help but imagine it going horribly wrong and Kagha taking back control as the outsider has no connection with anyone there. Halsin needs to step in himself, but he is content with hanging out with us instead.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Kahga - 14/11/20 06:41 PM
Halsin has something bigger to take care of at the moment. He has the shadow curse situation to solve that is an unnatural plague and represent what the druids attempt to avoid in the first place he also feel responsable for this so he is attempting to rettify his mistakes. An outsider could bring the druid back on a more tollerant way an outsider would be the perfect choice because he could have the the perspective necessary to solve the issue. Since Halsin was kidnapped nobody named an archdruid. Khaga probably was named by consensus. But usually is an Archdruid that names an Archdruids the decision is never under question as long the new Archdruid keep to mantain balance in a good or a bad way.
Posted By: Surface R Re: Kahga - 14/11/20 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

The Grove strait up cant support the Tieflings, the druids were living in balence with nature before they showed up, they cant just conjure infinite food.


I noticed from your previous attempt at a reply you are a simpleton so what i say will be very difficult to understand for you.

1. There is nothing in the game that says the grove cannot "straight up" support the Tieflings.

- The Tieflings dont want to stay - in - the - grove. Mkay?

2. there is nothing in the game that says or presents that "druids were living in a balance with nature before they showed up" or that balance was especially inbalanced by refugees - while apparently NOT by a rampaging third force destroying everything and killing everyone...

3. If you had ability to read words i wrote, and ability to understand them, you would have seen that "conjuring infinite food" is not needed at all.

Its just that you are so stupid you cant.


Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

Then Olodin tells Kagha about the Absolute's forces mustering, she really didn't have any option but to kick the teiflings out

Only if you are a complete idiot.


Quote
Would be a potential suicidie. Druids always care about theyr own agenda. And is always paramount to them to keep going at it does not matter what happens around them till they are under a direct threat.


... they are... under.... a direct threat.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: Kagha - 14/11/20 07:29 PM
Surface R: Quit the personal attacks.
Posted By: N7Greenfire Re: Kagha - 14/11/20 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by Surface R
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

The Grove strait up cant support the Tieflings, the druids were living in balence with nature before they showed up, they cant just conjure infinite food.


I noticed from your previous attempt at a reply you are a simpleton so what i say will be very difficult to understand for you.

1. There is nothing in the game that says the grove cannot "straight up" support the Tieflings.

- The Tieflings dont want to stay - in - the - grove. Mkay?

2. there is nothing in the game that says or presents that "druids were living in a balance with nature before they showed up" or that balance was especially inbalanced by refugees - while apparently NOT by a rampaging third force destroying everything and killing everyone...

3. If you had ability to read words i wrote, and ability to understand them, you would have seen that "conjuring infinite food" is not needed at all.

Its just that you are so stupid you cant.


Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

Then Olodin tells Kagha about the Absolute's forces mustering, she really didn't have any option but to kick the teiflings out

Only if you are a complete idiot.


Quote
Would be a potential suicidie. Druids always care about theyr own agenda. And is always paramount to them to keep going at it does not matter what happens around them till they are under a direct threat.


... they are... under.... a direct threat.



Dude did you even play the game? The initial vendor tells you they don't have the supplies, you can break into the store room and see the supplies are near empty...

You have no food an army advancing on you and your leader is MIA what other option did she have?

Really feels like you didnt even play
Posted By: Rieline Re: Kagha - 14/11/20 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by Surface R
Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

The Grove strait up cant support the Tieflings, the druids were living in balence with nature before they showed up, they cant just conjure infinite food.


I noticed from your previous attempt at a reply you are a simpleton so what i say will be very difficult to understand for you.

1. There is nothing in the game that says the grove cannot "straight up" support the Tieflings.

- The Tieflings dont want to stay - in - the - grove. Mkay?

2. there is nothing in the game that says or presents that "druids were living in a balance with nature before they showed up" or that balance was especially inbalanced by refugees - while apparently NOT by a rampaging third force destroying everything and killing everyone...

3. If you had ability to read words i wrote, and ability to understand them, you would have seen that "conjuring infinite food" is not needed at all.

Its just that you are so stupid you cant.


Originally Posted by N7Greenfire

Then Olodin tells Kagha about the Absolute's forces mustering, she really didn't have any option but to kick the teiflings out

Only if you are a complete idiot.


Quote
Would be a potential suicidie. Druids always care about theyr own agenda. And is always paramount to them to keep going at it does not matter what happens around them till they are under a direct threat.


... they are... under.... a direct threat.



They are yes. But usually Goblins don't threat Druidic circles why would they? Usually Druid don't care about the presence of goblin. They are now under threat and they blame the opening to the outsiders ((not all of them)) as a main reason for it. In the end those adventurers got themself in a skirmish with the goblins and did lead them to the grove. The difference is those are not in fact simple goblins. They follow the Absolute and they have allies that normally would never have. All of this makes this goblins bold enough bold to raid villages. But before the Adventurer incident the Circle had no reason to believe the goblins were a threat this is also why they see the refugees with bad eyes. Is also explain to you that since the presence of the refugees monsters in the reason becomed way more aggressive and this is a reason of concern. So is easy to see how the druids are considering this opening to the Refugees cause of trouble. Again their main agenda is to protect the circle at any costs. Khaga may have her reasons but that dosn't change the fact she is a lot extremist in the druidic way even if somehow contain herself. A shadow druid would had simple attacked the Refugees directly and force them to leave or they would had simply exteminated them in order to keep the Circle safe and unnoticed. Is a chain of events that brought in that situation however Khaga while her motivation would be valid in this case is way more alligned to the violent part of the nature. The comments she makes if you have a drow character give more insight on how she act and thinks as she actually admires Drow.

To me the narration of the Groove is well made. Following perfectly the lore and also the druidic mindset it can be confused because is not presented totally to you as a RL situation would be. If you want to have more insight you have to work for it and search for it. Khaga journal is a good example.
Posted By: Surface R Re: Kagha - 14/11/20 08:06 PM
The initial vendor doesnt tell you that at all. He tells you that he doesnt have much and then sells you food, healing potions, +1 weapons and gear. The camp is full of food in various containers. there is a second trader-smith that can sell you more, A cooking lady that gives you a broth - with more food right next to her on the table. And auntie Ethel.

I already addressed the store room, actual natural area of the grovve that includes a river, fact that druids can use their magic to grow food and help refugees to grow more. All that, you simply refused to read.
Just s you can make hilarious claims about me not even playing - while you continuously show you dont remember the very parts of dialogue you think support your ... ideas.

You again simply fail to acknowledge or consider that refugees dont want to stay in the grove, and the fact that the grove leadership is somehow simply not interested in forces attacking the grove and destroying the whole area around it.
While closing the grove will only achieve they remain in constant indefinite siege, completely surrounded - while not even knowing what is attacking them and what capabilities those forces have.
Which, according to you is the best course of action.


Originally Posted by Rieline


They are yes. But usually Goblins don't threat Druidic circles why would they? Usually Druid don't care about the presence of goblin. They are now under threat and they blame the opening to the outsiders ((not all of them)) as a main reason for it. In the end those adventurers got themself in a skirmish with the goblins and did lead them to the grove. The difference is those are not in fact simple goblins. They follow the Absolute and they have allies that normally would never have. All of this makes this goblins bold enough bold to raid villages. But before the Adventurer incident the Circle had no reason to believe the goblins were a threat this is also why they see the refugees with bad eyes. Is also explain to you that since the presence of the refugees monsters in the reason becomed way more aggressive and this is a reason of concern. So is easy to see how the druids are considering this opening to the Refugees cause of trouble. Again their main agenda is to protect the circle at any costs. Khaga may have her reasons but that dosn't change the fact she is a lot extremist in the druidic way even if somehow contain herself. A shadow druid would had simple attacked the Refugees directly and force them to leave or they would had simply exteminated them in order to keep the Circle safe and unnoticed. Is a chain of events that brought in that situation however Khaga while her motivation would be valid in this case is way more alligned to the violent part of the nature. The comments she makes if you have a drow character give more insight on how she act and thinks as she actually admires Drow.

To me the narration of the Groove is well made. Following perfectly the lore and also the druidic mindset it can be confused because is not presented totally to you as a RL situation would be. If you want to have more insight you have to work for it and search for it. Khaga journal is a good example.


Its not the usual situation, thats why.

They are now under threat - yes - and they may initially blame the outsiders - thats fine too. It can happen. But it cannot just remain like that unless they are all insane and deranged. Because there is plenty of evidence against and the player should be able to use that to change such nonsensical opinions. Especially because its not just goblins - at all. Yet we never even get a chance to mention it.

The problem is that druids apparently have no interest for any of the nature or living beings outside of the grove getting destroyed, despite being capable of using animals to keep an eye on things in that whole area - but they just didnt. Never occurred to anyone. So they simply missed all the other attacks and destruction - and increasing unbalance across that whole area, that you say is so very important to druids. They also missed the attack on their own Archdruid... same as you simply dont remember that happening. They even have a goblin prisoner happy to scream about the Absolute to anyone in vicinity - yet that simply doesnt matter anyway.

And there wasnt a single attack that we can see that happened because of the refugees. At all.

Quote
Is also explain to you that since the presence of the refugees monsters in the reason becomed way more aggressive and this is a reason of concern.

What does this even mean? What refugee monsters becoming more aggressive? Monsters in the region? No, obviously. Its not what actually happens in the game at all.
This horrible Druid script tells you so or makes you think thats what they think - but every single event that happens in the game is completely opposite to that.

You are literally delusional.


Quote
Again their main agenda is to protect the circle at any costs.

Is their agenda to protect only the circle - nothing else?
How is that achieved by refusing to even think about the attacking force and locking the grove into permanent siege and indefinite encirclement - by forces they refuse to even consider, let alone know anything about?
How can they be sure the ritual will protect them against absolutely everything the enemies may attempt - while not knowing anything about that enemy and refusing to even think about it?

WHY is the player denied even the opportunity to point this out to anyone?

How many times must i repeat this? Are you people just incapable of actually understanding the simple arguments i make - instead of constantly tripping over the few points you misunderstand and cant get over?

Quote

Following perfectly the lore and also the druidic mindset it can be confused because is not presented totally to you as a RL situation would be.

No, actually it works completely against the lore and basic common sense. Nothing to do with the RL - unless you think the most basic logic and common sense have nothing to do with Faerun, BG games, RPGs or fantasy in general.

Quote
If you want to have more insight you have to work for it and search for it. Khaga journal is a good example.


Yeah... i know... the problem is that the player cannot do anything with any of that insight and things we discover.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Kagha - 14/11/20 08:22 PM
I also have a memory of the vendor telling me that they're running out of food. Not in the "what do you have to trade" dialogue option, but if you ask him about the situation between the druids and tieflings.

The food in the crates: eh I would separate this from the internal logic of the world. The food is in those crates because Larian put it there for the player, but this doesn't necessarily mean that the NPCs are aware of it. Also, "will run out of food" is not the same as "already out of food."

That said, it is incredibly silly that druids would run out of food. They can cast goodberry, feeding 10 people per day for the cost of a single sprig of mistletoe. They should also know how to live off the land. And, if they're running out of food now, how does it help them to "close themselves off from the world"? Won't they just run out of food even faster without the ability to forage/hunt??
Posted By: Rieline Re: Kagha - 14/11/20 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by Surface R
The initial vendor doesnt tell you that at all. He tells you that he doesnt have much and then sells you food, healing potions, +1 weapons and gear. The camp is full of food in various containers. there is a second trader-smith that can sell you more, A cooking lady that gives you a broth - with more food right next to her on the table. And auntie Ethel.

I already addressed the store room, actual natural area of the grovve that includes a river, fact that druids can use their magic to grow food and help refugees to grow more. All that, you simply refused to read.
Just s you can make hilarious claims about me not even playing - while you continuously show you dont remember the very parts of dialogue you think support your ... ideas.

You again simply fail to acknowledge or consider that refugees dont want to stay in the grove, and the fact that the grove leadership is somehow simply not interested in forces attacking the grove and destroying the whole area around it.
While closing the grove will only achieve they remain in constant indefinite siege, completely surrounded - while not even knowing what is attacking them and what capabilities those forces have.
Which, according to you is the best course of action.





Is not uncommon for Druid to act in this way. Consider the Ritual of Isolation is not jus simply conjuring a barrier druidic magic is absolutely different and way more intricate. This is a common pratice of defence when Druids are under threat isolate the Druidic circle to then come back eventually when the situation will be less hot. Of course the resources refugees have is another problem they may have not much in term of weaponry but they don't lack food at the moment. And that is basically what concern the druids most. The over consuming of the place they have a circle in resources. If you notice around the camp there are improvvised home or structure made of wood those are not made by druid hand. The druids stay inside theyr circle in the ruins they have also room with beds. So most likely the refugees built the gates and the wooden structures as well. Only that alone can be seen problematic for a druid. Druids dislike universally one thing. Civilization. They dislike to see trees cut down to make space to cities village or camps. Some druids learned to cohexist with this. In the case of Mielikki followers that may result less closed. Or Chauntea ones. They will be the ones helping with crops cultivation. But Silvanus is different. The cult of Silvanus is often very isolated and not much open to outsiders. Silvanus also known has Father Oak is not even a divinity good alligned to start with he is in fact a neutral God all Sylvanus followers want is Balance now this can go well or bad. There are many various individuals in the cult of Sylvanus a druidic Cyrcle of Silvanus followers can be composed even by evil or good druids as well most of them are neutral so they usually act on what they decide is better to the moment. If it was instead a Circle devoted to Mielikki or Chauntea probably the druids would had helped them gladly with the hope to teach them to respect balance.

Is not running out of food the problem. Is the deplection of the nautral resources around the circle because of the Refugees. Yes they can cast goodberries. But for a divine caster abusing of power is not something that is acceptable to do. They have those powers but is a good pratice to use them only if necessary.

"The church of Silvanus is spread everywhere across Faerun and is far stronger than many might think. Nevertheless, most outsiders view the church of Chauntea, as patrons of agriculture, as being favorably inclined towards the expansion of civilization, while the church of Silvanus is the implacable foe of those who would settle new lands. Neither impression is correct, yet the church of the Oak Father is often perceived as little different from those faiths that venerate the Deities of Fury."

Dogma of SIlvanus
"Silvanus sees and balances all, meting out wild water and drought, fire, and ice, life and death. Hold your distance and take in the total situation, rather than latching on to the popular idea of what is best. All is in a cycle, deftly and beautifully balanced. It is the duty of the devout to see this cycle and the sacred Balance as clearly as possible. Make others see the Balance and work against those that would disturb it. Watch, anticipate, and quietly manipulate. Resort to violence and open confrontation only when pressured by time or hostile action. Fight against the felling of forests, banish disease wherever you find it, defend the trees, and plant new flora wherever possible. Seek out, serve, and befriend the dryads and learn their names. Kill only when needful, destroy fire and its employers, and beware orcs and others who bring axes into the forest."

So in the eyes of the Druis the arrival of the Refugees and the old Archdruid accepting them in was see like a disturbance of balance. They also say that since the Refugee arrivals creatures in the area turned way more hostile. While this is true or just a coincidence they have reasons to believe this Refugees must move away and quick. On the other hand after the goblin attacks Refugees can't simply move away as they are many and they would likely draw attention and get attacked in the way. So we have Khaga that wants the Refugees out. And the Refugees being stuck in the choice between a bad situation and another bad situation.

Also Khaga is more alligned with the Shadow Druids. And those are way more drastic in theyr manner to act.
Posted By: Surface R Re: Kagha - 14/11/20 08:51 PM
I edit in the reply to you previous post into the post above.

Quote
This is a common pratice of defence when Druids are under threat isolate the Druidic circle to then come back eventually when the situation will be less hot.


I understood you the first time. They have no idea when the situation will become less hot. In fact f Kagha geiousplan wors things will only become more hot. indefinitely. And they fail to even be interested in who the enemies are and what capabilities they have. This also - again for the fifteenth time - will result in destruction of the whole area around the grove, mass murders and destruction of nature. - i.e. destruction of balance. While putting the grove into a permanent siege and encirclement. With no option to affect that situation in any way but just wait until the enemy manages to figure out some way to get in and kill them all. This of course is something not available to player characters to point out.

Kagha on the other hand being a Shadowdruid - only not - apparently - according to you would kill refugees - but somehow refuses to even consider the other attacking force which is just fine... everything is going swimmingly.
Ill just kill the refugees - although they have nothing to do with hostilities and attacks. Only she doesnt. because... i dunno, electrolytes? Only she wants the out like right now, but doesnt want to know anything about the attacking force...

Thats just... amazing.

Quote
Of course the resources refugees have is another problem they may have not much in term of weaponry but they don't lack food at the moment.


Wut? Didnt you notice that Tiefling smith making +1 armors gear and weapons? They dont lack food for the moment? What does that mean?
How come? Seeing how they are ruining the natural resources and whatnot?


Quote
So most likely the refugees built the gates and the wooden structures as well. Only that alone can be seen problematic for a druid.


Never mentioned by anyone in the game. And even if it gets into some NPCs dialogue the player wont be able to address it in any way. Or to point out that refugees actually want to gtfo.



Quote
Dogma of SIlvanus
"Silvanus sees and balances all, meting out wild water and drought, fire, and ice, life and death. Hold your distance and take in the total situation, rather than latching on to the popular idea of what is best. All is in a cycle, deftly and beautifully balanced. It is the duty of the devout to see this cycle and the sacred Balance as clearly as possible. Make others see the Balance and work against those that would disturb it. Watch, anticipate, and quietly manipulate. Resort to violence and open confrontation only when pressured by time or hostile action. Fight against the felling of forests, banish disease wherever you find it, defend the trees, and plant new flora wherever possible. Seek out, serve, and befriend the dryads and learn their names. Kill only when needful, destroy fire and its employers, and beware orcs and others who bring axes into the forest."


Umm... just wow.

Not a word about enclose yourself and hide while refusing to even think about forces destroying everything around you, btw.

Work against those who disturb it, - lol.


Quote
So in the eyes of the Druis the arrival of the Refugees and the old Archdruid accepting them in was see like a disturbance of balance. They also say that since the Refugee arrivals creatures in the area turned way more hostile. While this is true or just a coincidence they have reasons to believe this Refugees must move away and quick.

Did you just skip what i repeatedly said about this or are you literally incapable to see my words?

1. Attacks started before refugees came along. Only apparently druids are brain damaged, and all have some kind of memento condition. Simply dont observe the area around the Grove, dont care, cant remember what just happened.

2. Attack on the gates of the Grove does not happen because of the refugees at all.

3. The player can and does find plenty of evidence - yet is never allowed to even mention it.

4. The refugees want to get out not stay there.

5. .... whatever, really. wtf. why am i even wasting my time.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Kagha - 14/11/20 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by Surface R
I edit in the reply to you previous post into the post above.

Quote
This is a common pratice of defence when Druids are under threat isolate the Druidic circle to then come back eventually when the situation will be less hot.


I understood you the first time. They have no idea when the situation will become less hot. In fact f Kagha geiousplan wors things will only become more hot. indefinitely. And they fail to even be interested in who the enemies are and what capabilities they have. This also - again for the fifteenth time - will result in destruction of the whole area around the grove, mass murders and destruction of nature. - i.e. destruction of balance. While putting the grove into a permanent siege and encirclement. With no option to affect that situation in any way but just wait until the enemy manages to figure out some way to get in and kill them all. This of course is something not available to player characters to point out.

Kagha on the other hand being a Shadowdruid - only not - apparently - according to you would kill refugees - but somehow refuses to even consider the other attacking force which is just fine... everything is going swimmingly.
Ill just kill the refugees - although they have nothing to do with hostilities and attacks. Only she doesnt. because... i dunno, electrolytes? Only she wants the out like right now, but doesnt want to know anything about the attacking force...

Thats just... amazing.

Quote
Of course the resources refugees have is another problem they may have not much in term of weaponry but they don't lack food at the moment.


Wut? Didnt you notice that Tiefling smith making +1 armors gear and weapons? They dont lack food for the moment? What does that mean?
How come? Seeing how they are ruining the natural resources and whatnot?


Quote
So most likely the refugees built the gates and the wooden structures as well. Only that alone can be seen problematic for a druid.


Never mentioned by anyone in the game. And even if it gets into some NPCs dialogue the player wont be able to address it in any way. Or to point out that refugees actually want to gtfo.



Quote
Dogma of SIlvanus
"Silvanus sees and balances all, meting out wild water and drought, fire, and ice, life and death. Hold your distance and take in the total situation, rather than latching on to the popular idea of what is best. All is in a cycle, deftly and beautifully balanced. It is the duty of the devout to see this cycle and the sacred Balance as clearly as possible. Make others see the Balance and work against those that would disturb it. Watch, anticipate, and quietly manipulate. Resort to violence and open confrontation only when pressured by time or hostile action. Fight against the felling of forests, banish disease wherever you find it, defend the trees, and plant new flora wherever possible. Seek out, serve, and befriend the dryads and learn their names. Kill only when needful, destroy fire and its employers, and beware orcs and others who bring axes into the forest."


Umm... just wow.





Allright i try to be more clear sorry english is not my first language so please bear with me.
The druidic circle is a place of mystical power for the druids so important that if that would be destroyed would cause most of the time a chain reaction all around that would create a damage that could not be undone so easily. Even if the groove and the area around the grove would be torn down but the circle would survive the druid could replants trees bring back animals with no problem. If instead the circle is destroyed that would be way more difficoult to do. This is why for druids is paramount the circle will survive at any cost. Consider also that a ritual like Khaga wants to do would shield totally the Circle is more easy to take a well defended fortress than penetrate in the defence of a ritual so complex. The goblin would simply not be capable to do it Absolute or not this is how powerful this ritual is. Khaga is in a problematic situation as she gained consensus but nobody is aware she is a shadow druid((or most likely being manipulated by them)) aside of the shadow druids hidden whiting the grove. She is slowly bringing the circle on the side of the Shadowdruids see that as a sort of mindset corruption going on. Being way too directly drastic would make her lose the consensus she gained and with that the position of it.

The attacking force situation is a bit problematic see the old Archdruid were aware of this new situation with the goblins however he went away with the adventurersd and got captured in the end.That probably given Khaga the opportunity to gain consensous and end as Archdruid. Druids are the most problematic character or NPC to deal with. Their way of reasoning usually elused the common way of thinking the game gives hint that since the Refugee arrivals the situation on the Grove and surrounding becomed way more violent. Of course Khaga is lacking the general picture of it but she dislike outsiders coming in to the Grove and if was for her probably those refugees were sent away and would never had been taken in.

A druid usually think in the long run.
Imagine this you are a Druid and you can see this new people coming in your sacred grove they start to build shelter eating food from wilderness and consume they are many so there is the danger they would actually bring problems to the Balance of the Areas. Then you have the area turning more violent. On all of this a nautiloid crashed in to the ground probably destroying part of the nearby wilderness like if this was not enough a group of adventured chased by goblins brought them to the Grove.

Now is easy to understand why Khaga don't want the Refugees and want to sent them out quickly as possible. Is also even esier to understand why she is preparing a ritugal that would cause the grove to be sealed and impenetrable to save the Druidic Circle.

Also is a druidic circle of Silvanus they always tend to avoid open confrontation. As for the refugee they want indeed to leave but they did reiceved an attack they have childrens and some people that are not even fighters. Venturing out toward Baldur's Gate is a huge risk of them because in the end they are many and they would be noticed. I can undestand both points of view. Like i said is a complex situation for both and is even worse as Khaga i think is being manipulated by the Shadow Druids.





Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Kagha - 15/11/20 06:54 PM
I'm glad to see active on this topic, it gives us a better chance that Larian will pay more attention to the Kagha and make a rework. All the same, she is cute, I would like to romance her in the second playthrough. She is even better than Shadow Heart, but needs to be more neutral and "more elven" albeit with a difficult character. Her features need to be softened a little too, as well as her character, so that she is more cute. But just a little so that she doesn't become too good.

If Larian wants to add more companions and characters for romance, then let it be Kagha and not the strange werewolf halflings or tieflings with a crossbow.
Probably I'm one of those gamers who make decisions on the routes based on what kind of charismatic girl I will get in this route for my party.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kagha - 15/11/20 07:34 PM
While I'm also glad to see activity on this thread I feel the message I wanted to convey is getting a bit lost in translation now.
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I'm glad to see active on this topic, it gives us a better chance that Larian will pay more attention to the Kagha and make a rework. All the same, she is cute, I would like to romance her in the second playthrough. She is even better than Shadow Heart, but needs to be more neutral and "more elven" albeit with a difficult character. Her features need to be softened a little too, as well as her character, so that she is more cute. But just a little so that she doesn't become too good.

If Larian wants to add more companions and characters for romance, then let it be Kagha and not the strange werewolf halflings or tieflings with a crossbow.
Probably I'm one of those gamers who make decisions on the routes based on what kind of charismatic girl I will get in this route for my party.
All for reworking the grove storyline but maybe not for making everyone who is remotely likeable a romance option.
Posted By: ArmouredHedgehog Re: Kagha - 15/11/20 09:26 PM
OneManArmy likes to take concepts to the extreme, right now one of his favourite theme is romance. I cannot guarantee that he is not 100% serious but I would like to think so. Take it with a grain of salt (those big ones you can buy on ebay).
Serious or not, it does provide entertainment and interesting reactions by others.
Kagha does have a point. Maybe the devs could improve her character by offering a clearer explanation why the refugee situation is unsustainable. If the druids are truly in a desperate situation it would make the choice of the player even harder
Posted By: FelLich Re: Kagha - 15/11/20 11:07 PM
I felt they explained it well enough. Xenophobic druids decided to enact a ritual that would seal off the grove from outside forces. They'd been conducting the ritual for a few days and were nearing completion which meant that the Teiflings had to go. The Teiflings were reluctant to leave because the Goblin threat was still out there and if they tried to make their way to Baldur's Gate they'd be killed. Desperation on the druids part was never a factor as it was simply time running out for the completion of the ritual. There isn't really a choice between druids and Teiflings; it's more do you enact the isolationist plan for which you will gain nothing and makes sense for the situation; or do you solve the groves issues by one of the three other methods. The other three being: Kill off the druids, remove Kagha through force/persuasion, or go save Halsin/kill the puppet cult and let him deal with it.

It's apparently been stated by Larian's head that they had to force their writers to add in "evil" choices and those boil down to; be an idiot and kill someone that could've been useful down the line. Personally I prefer when the decisions are more grey and you can argue which was the better choice. I mean if they're going to go with a psychotic evil path they needed to have a psychotically fun companion to go with it, and they very much don't have that.

Also I have to agree with the lets not have every single thing that breaths be romanceable. That would result in either a space captain scenario, or a whole lot of shallow romances.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Kagha - 15/11/20 11:46 PM
Originally Posted by FelLich
I mean if they're going to go with a psychotic evil path they needed to have a psychotically fun companion to go with it, and they very much don't have that.


That seems to be exactly what they're going for with Astarion.
Posted By: Riandor Re: Kagha - 16/11/20 12:13 AM
Astarion is a bit of a hard fail as an evil character though.
I mean yes, he is a vampire and yes he does want to eat you, but he is always such a cheeky rascal that you can’t help but love him.

He is also never that bothered if you do good as long as you’re not whiter than Snow White and he often in talking to him never sounds anything more than a debonair chap who is a bit naughty but not the bad sort naughty, just you know, naughty.

In all seriousness, he is too accepting of a non evil play though (if he is supposed to be the evil one), and is hardly in your ear making nasty or manipulative suggestions, even in ironic jest.

Perhaps when character interventions are introduced, but otherwise he’s a overly charming vampire. You don’t expect good, but you’re not getting evil either. At worst he’s neutral evil and that’s a stretch.

Now, I’ll caveat that and say if you yourself play evil he might be the more impressed of the group, or you might access speech lines that you don’t get if you stay on the so called good quest line. Which means he might be playing the room, staying coy if you’re not evil, loving it if you are and if so I missed a trick, but i would love a truly nasty character in camp, one that whispers in your ear until you break and grin maniacally as you fall into his or her train of thinking, or you break and flat out kill them before you go mad.
Posted By: FelLich Re: Kagha - 16/11/20 01:54 AM
I just don't see Astarion being evil, he comes across as aristocracy rather than a form of evil. He sees himself as above all others, similar to Lae'zel, and is interested in his own self gain. He wants to be rich, powerful and in control of his own life. Specifically, this is shown in his want to be free of Cazador's control and willingness to split his soul's ownership to accomplish it. Even his want to control the tadpole is born of a need to be in control rather than any grand evil designs. Sure the guy can be an ass and doesn't care about other people's lives but he's not psychotic by any stretch, none of the current companions are. His flamboyance (eccentric nature?) can perhaps come across as self absorbed and aloof but it never really reaches a level of evil, not in my mind at least. Lae'zel might, hard might, be the closest companion to being evil and that's only because she's a soldier with a fanatic loyalty to her queen, plus a hefty dose of pride. With the others; Gale is a moron, Wyll is good though has made at least one bad choice and Shadowheart is probably brainwashed. But, as Riandor says, none of the companions want to dance in blood or watch the grove burn because the druids didn't show enough respect, they don't find it fun to drive the Gnoll mad and make it eat itself after eating everyone else. While at the same time liking the Teiflings because they're polite and make nice music. Sure they can some of them can accept "evil" actions such as killing innocence or potential allies but for them its all kosher so long as you're making your way towards getting the tadpole out of your head. Truly none of them are psychotically evil or even just plain evil, which puts a crimp in a lot of the current evil choices and paths which are all kill anything that breaths. I mean if one of them had wondered aloud if the druids were all that tough when the lady at the steps threatens you that would've been a good poke that maybe you should just get rid of them. Little nudges here and there would work well, but for all the current companions that doesn't seem to be in their character. Granted such things can change, after all we've only got the first act right now, and maybe through the story Astarion or one of the others might "show their true colours". But as it currently is I have a hard time seeing any of the companions as evil in any real form.

The companions being more self absorbed jackasses rather than any form of evil can be seen simply in their whole reaction to the grove. Yes Wyll and Gale want to help, or at least Wyll obviously does. But Shadowheart, Astarion and Lae'zel are pretty much "This place have a cure? No? Well fuck this place lets get going". That said having something in your skull that could at any moment kill your and obliterate your soul does tend to redirect priorities but their tone sells the attitude.
Posted By: Riandor Re: Kagha - 16/11/20 07:28 AM
Yeah this kinda now starts swinging towards the other thread regarding the “evil path”, but whilst I don’t want a grand moustache twiddling cliche of baddie in my camp, someone perhaps finally more like the worshipper of Loviatar in the goblin camp, someone who takes actual pleasure in nasty deeds.

Someone who might whisper in your ear about how you know:

Them: “...or we couuuuuld flay their skin off?”
Us: “We could? Oh yeah hmmm yeah we could couldn’t we.”

Someone who if you leave them in camp long enough they infect others with their poisonous mind. Shadowheart maybe, or Gale.

Interesting fact (probably mentioned elsewhere in the forum) Loviatar serves Bhaal, but also hung around with Shar during Bhaal’s absence.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Kagha - 16/11/20 07:53 AM
Originally Posted by FelLich
I just don't see Astarion being evil



Evil or not, you can tell by the actions they approve or disapprove.

Astarion is chaotic evil, that's how I see it. He approves of killing a squirrel, approves of killing a child for stealing, approves of betraying the tieflings (many others bad things). At a party among corpses, you get his approval, and he is much happier than at a tiefling party.
Yes, he doesn't leave you if you save them, but maybe just because he's using you. Leaving is not profitable. Also, he does not approve of saving the tieflings, or any other actions close to this. Does that mean anything to you? It seems to me that the developers should add more 'disapprove reactions' so that people understand that Astarion is evil character.
He's also xenophobic...


Even if he has a traumatic past and a fear of a master, it doesn't change anything. He kill for fun, it cant be good or neutrally.


We don't have much information, he may be unhappy travel with you, but still stay to use you.

Also you don't need to have great intentions to be evil.
Posted By: Riandor Re: Kagha - 16/11/20 08:24 AM
Well you could if that approve or disapprove stayed on the screen long enough 😜.

Yeah Astarion is of course happier with the darker side of things, but he’s not hard to keep moderately happy. Heck maybe I got away with all those good things by letting him feed on me! Haha.

I have nothing against Astarion at all actually, I personally just feel there could also be someone a little more twisted in camp. I actually thought it might have been the resurrect dude who hangs around camp, but no (not yet at any rate).
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Kagha - 16/11/20 08:40 AM
Originally Posted by Riandor
Well you could if that approve or disapprove stayed on the screen long enough 😜.

Yeah Astarion is of course happier with the darker side of things, but he’s not hard to keep moderately happy. Heck maybe I got away with all those good things by letting him feed on me! Haha.

I have nothing against Astarion at all actually, I personally just feel there could also be someone a little more twisted in camp. I actually thought it might have been the resurrect dude who hangs around camp, but no (not yet at any rate).


Like I say maybe he's 'happy' only cuz he still can use you. But this is still a good deal, then every good/kind character can get a "knife in the back" later. Worse, if there is a situation like was with Sebille. Their stories are too similar... Hmm
Posted By: Ari Re: Kagha - 16/11/20 09:14 AM
Asterion strikes me as a "I will saw the branch we are all standing on because altruism is for losers" brand of evil companion. It seems he approves of pretty much every single act of cruelty, no matter how petty and counterproductive, and disapproves of nearly all good acts, even if they benefit you. There are even a few evil acts he disapproves of if you do not take the requisite amount of sadistic glee in it, such as if you raise Mayrina's husband as a zombie and do not find it amusing.

More on topic.

Kagha's child killing scene. I found it mustache-twirlingly evil. Very in my face. Honestly, especially since the game gives her a route of redemption, I found it all rather unnecessary. Her redemption, to me, feels far more believable if the kid is not killed off.

To me, the attitude of the druids, especially how Kagha took control, seems very disconnected from how events actually are. From the way the adventurers and Zevlor spoke of it, it sounds Halsin has been out on a stroll for a few days at most. The druids, however, speak as if Halsin has been gone for months. Considering how xenophilic Halsin seemed to be, how did Kagha so quickly turn every single druid to her side? They only learned that Halsin is MIA minutes after you show up at the grove. It was not like he was off on some suicide mission, he was expected to return up until then. How did they decide that all hope is lost and to fire up the ritual in that small a time frame?
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kagha - 16/11/20 09:55 AM
Originally Posted by ArmouredHedgehog
Kagha does have a point. Maybe the devs could improve her character by offering a clearer explanation why the refugee situation is unsustainable. If the druids are truly in a desperate situation it would make the choice of the player even harder
I don't know if Kagha is supposed to have a point. The story does everything in its power to present her has obviously in the wrong and the refugees are;
  • Constantly about to leave
  • Fending off monsters on their own while the Druids perform the fuck off ritual
  • Chalked up as the "good" side in a conflict where the "bad" side is an outside force bent on destroying everyone, including the Druids

Moreover, Olodan and her cabal are another outside force independent of the Absolute trying to do evil that you cannot side with. In the best case scenario when Kagha is outed but spared and Olodan is killed, the grove is still as xenophobic as ever. Only Kagha herself can have a change of heart, but her brothers and sisters remain resentful. It's almost as if Halsin is completely in the wrong about everything he believes and totally ignorant of the reality he finds himself in. It would be bizarre and hilarious to have him come clean about this when he joins your camp, that he basically goes: "whew, finally got out of that rat's nest, I had no control whatshowever" and then Apukisis' corpse falls out of the sky.

And then there's this.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by Ari
To me, the attitude of the druids, especially how Kagha took control, seems very disconnected from how events actually are. From the way the adventurers and Zevlor spoke of it, it sounds Halsin has been out on a stroll for a few days at most. The druids, however, speak as if Halsin has been gone for months. Considering how xenophilic Halsin seemed to be, how did Kagha so quickly turn every single druid to her side? They only learned that Halsin is MIA minutes after you show up at the grove. It was not like he was off on some suicide mission, he was expected to return up until then. How did they decide that all hope is lost and to fire up the ritual in that small a time frame?
All good points. What timeframe is this even taking place in? The more you investigate Halsin's circle the more it seems like he is lying to you about his beliefs and style of leadership, but the game makes no effort to present this as an option to you. We can only assume he is lying because we have knowledge the player character does not and can infer a conclusion based on that, but that doesn't fly in the game itself.
Posted By: FelLich Re: Kagha - 17/11/20 01:18 AM
I think the time frame is a few days, at most a week. The only evidence I really know of is the druid who mentions that they had been chanting for days, after you stop the ritual. I believe, in regards to Halsin, it went something along the lines that he went out a few days before you arrive but became MIA when the mercs returned. The xenophobia and poor leadership timeframe can only be guessed at, I don't think there are any hard facts given with that stuff. Though it is evident that Halsin was more interested in dealing with the Shadow curse rather than managing his grove. With what can be gathered it paints an image that Halsin is not a good leader. The fact that the shadow druids either swept in right under his nose or were able to get in and usurp control within days is not a good sign. Considering how quickly they got operation Thorn Shield going there was obviously a lot of festering resentment going on within the grove. With Kagha, I'm fairly certain she is supposed to be someone who was poorly trained, has a lot of resentment and was easily open to manipulation. Hence our ability to talk her out her decisions as easily as she seemed to have been talked into them*.

*Easy being relative to your luck with the gods of RNG.

The killing of the child comes across, and I'm pretty sure I've already stated it in this thread, more as a fuck up rather than a "muahahaa I'm so evil" vibe. If they were going for mustache evil than she would have simply ordered the snake to kill the kid. Not like Rath was actually going to do anything other than cry about it, its all dumb evil.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kagha - 17/11/20 10:05 AM
From the datamining thread:
Originally Posted by Chubblot
Vhaldez, this might be slightly interesting in terms of your Kagha is bad topic - I left out quite a few Druid responses so as not to bloat the video and to not totally destroy any sense of intrigue for people. There's an option you can take to call out one of the Druids in the cave for doing nothing to help and being snarky about it and his response is basically "only god can judge me."

https://imgur.com/a/LgKhcwM
So being a druid only makes the grove experience worse, it seems. I don't understand why they would assassinate the class like this. The PC as a druid is the only person besides Halsin with a shred of humanity and common sense. Why is this grove so cartoonishly evil?
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Kagha - 17/11/20 10:11 AM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
From the datamining thread:
Originally Posted by Chubblot
Vhaldez, this might be slightly interesting in terms of your Kagha is bad topic - I left out quite a few Druid responses so as not to bloat the video and to not totally destroy any sense of intrigue for people. There's an option you can take to call out one of the Druids in the cave for doing nothing to help and being snarky about it and his response is basically "only god can judge me."

https://imgur.com/a/LgKhcwM
So being a druid only makes the grove experience worse, it seems. I don't understand why they would assassinate the class like this. The PC as a druid is the only person besides Halsin with a shred of humanity and common sense. Why is this grove so cartoonishly evil?



Yes, also those tieflings. If druids need to reduce evil, then tieflings need to evil up. Choosing between druids and tieflings must be difficult. For example, for an idol to be stolen by an adult tiefling. We also learned that they steal supplies from the druids since it's a matter of their survival.
Posted By: Abits Re: Kagha - 17/11/20 10:16 AM
I have a question about dark druids. The FR wiki doesn't have much information about them, other than what was already in in the Baldur's Gate games, which makes me assume they are an invention of BioWare. Is it true?
Posted By: Ari Re: Kagha - 17/11/20 10:21 AM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
From the datamining thread:
Originally Posted by Chubblot
Vhaldez, this might be slightly interesting in terms of your Kagha is bad topic - I left out quite a few Druid responses so as not to bloat the video and to not totally destroy any sense of intrigue for people. There's an option you can take to call out one of the Druids in the cave for doing nothing to help and being snarky about it and his response is basically "only god can judge me."

https://imgur.com/a/LgKhcwM
So being a druid only makes the grove experience worse, it seems. I don't understand why they would assassinate the class like this. The PC as a druid is the only person besides Halsin with a shred of humanity and common sense. Why is this grove so cartoonishly evil?


At this rate, the grove’s reaction to the shadow druids should be “hooray, allies!”

Actually, why were they even horrified to learn of shadow druid meddling? Near all of them were completely onboard with this whole ritual. Both groups want the same thing. They clearly have no love for Halsin’s worldview, just join them.

Though, in the game’s defense, one is able to question Halsin giving such a lenient punishment to Kagha (demotion, a pretty heavy one granted, but this could be an unrepentant woman who killed a child). This could hint that Halsin did not master to “stick” side of carrot and stick leadership.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kagha - 17/11/20 10:37 AM
Originally Posted by Ari
At this rate, the grove’s reaction to the shadow druids should be “hooray, allies!”

Actually, why were they even horrified to learn of shadow druid meddling? Near all of them were completely onboard with this whole ritual. Both groups want the same thing. They clearly have no love for Halsin’s worldview, just join them.
Like I said before I feel like Halsin is going to come clean about not having bothered to lead the grove for untold years at some point in the future. That or the shadow druids have put everyone under some kind of spell.
Originally Posted by Abits
I have a question about dark druids. The FR wiki doesn't have much information about them, other than what was already in in the Baldur's Gate games, which makes me assume they are an invention of BioWare. Is it true?
I would not be surprised if that was true, but even then the behaviour of the normal druids is inexcusable. I think part of the reason why this all feels so unnatural is that Larian (and maybe FR lore in general) has turned druids into member associations with uniforms and a rank and file. When three mice show up at your doorstep and your interim head druid is seen conversing with them in secret, should that not ring any alarm bells? Can these shadow druids invade any grove of their choosing and subvert their leadership like this without anyone noticing? Does this happen more often?
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
If druids need to reduce evil, then tieflings need to evil up. Choosing between druids and tieflings must be difficult. For example, for an idol to be stolen by an adult tiefling. We also learned that they steal supplies from the druids since it's a matter of their survival.
I would like that, but I feel that is not what Larian wants to go for. The druids are a one-off Act 1 thing and the Tieflings will almost definitely follow you through the rest of the game, so there is no room for a difficult choice like that here.
Originally Posted by Ari
Though, in the game’s defense, one is able to question Halsin giving such a lenient punishment to Kagha (demotion, a pretty heavy one granted, but this could be an unrepentant woman who killed a child). This could hint that Halsin did not master to “stick” side of carrot and stick leadership.
I know I should not make up headcanon or speculate on indev content, but it seems to me that the game foreshadows really hard that if Kagha is demoted by Halsin without exposing the shadow druid cabal she will eventually stage a full on coup and throw the grove into darkness. If she is not outed she has zero respect for Halsin and gives him a real evil eyed look that says "Olodan will come for you later" to me.

Not that it would matter to Halsin since he is a blowhard that bails on "politics" to hang out with us instead, lol.

Posted By: Zzealot Re: Kahga - 17/11/20 10:37 PM
Quote
remove the child murdering scene when you first meet her


Kagha disapproves

[Linked Image]



Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 19/11/20 09:39 AM
#JusticeForArabella
Posted By: Rieline Re: Kahga - 19/11/20 01:23 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Ari
At this rate, the grove’s reaction to the shadow druids should be “hooray, allies!”

Actually, why were they even horrified to learn of shadow druid meddling? Near all of them were completely onboard with this whole ritual. Both groups want the same thing. They clearly have no love for Halsin’s worldview, just join them.
Like I said before I feel like Halsin is going to come clean about not having bothered to lead the grove for untold years at some point in the future. That or the shadow druids have put everyone under some kind of spell.
Originally Posted by Abits
I have a question about dark druids. The FR wiki doesn't have much information about them, other than what was already in in the Baldur's Gate games, which makes me assume they are an invention of BioWare. Is it true?
I would not be surprised if that was true, but even then the behaviour of the normal druids is inexcusable. I think part of the reason why this all feels so unnatural is that Larian (and maybe FR lore in general) has turned druids into member associations with uniforms and a rank and file. When three mice show up at your doorstep and your interim head druid is seen conversing with them in secret, should that not ring any alarm bells? Can these shadow druids invade any grove of their choosing and subvert their leadership like this without anyone noticing? Does this happen more often?
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
If druids need to reduce evil, then tieflings need to evil up. Choosing between druids and tieflings must be difficult. For example, for an idol to be stolen by an adult tiefling. We also learned that they steal supplies from the druids since it's a matter of their survival.
I would like that, but I feel that is not what Larian wants to go for. The druids are a one-off Act 1 thing and the Tieflings will almost definitely follow you through the rest of the game, so there is no room for a difficult choice like that here.
Originally Posted by Ari
Though, in the game’s defense, one is able to question Halsin giving such a lenient punishment to Kagha (demotion, a pretty heavy one granted, but this could be an unrepentant woman who killed a child). This could hint that Halsin did not master to “stick” side of carrot and stick leadership.
I know I should not make up headcanon or speculate on indev content, but it seems to me that the game foreshadows really hard that if Kagha is demoted by Halsin without exposing the shadow druid cabal she will eventually stage a full on coup and throw the grove into darkness. If she is not outed she has zero respect for Halsin and gives him a real evil eyed look that says "Olodan will come for you later" to me.

Not that it would matter to Halsin since he is a blowhard that bails on "politics" to hang out with us instead, lol.



There is a lot of content about the druids in the manuals of the past edition but for the most part they tend to follow the Deity a Circle is affiliated on. In this case Silvanus. Even Evil allingment Silvanus druids are perfectly fine. Silvanus is a neutral divinity this means it also accept Evil followers. Druids are not a Bioware invention what Bioware did is take the Lorde of the Forgotten Realms.


And again being Tiefling does not necessarily mean be evil. It means that there is demonic blood or devil blood in to ancestry but they all have a thing in common they are not well accepted around because of their bloodline are often not trusted or even shunned. Many of them end to become bandits or criminal because of this rather than their ancestry.

Halsin is good alligned. Khaga is leaning toward Evil on top of that is being manipulated from the shadow druids.
Posted By: Bossk_Hogg Re: Kahga - 19/11/20 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
#JusticeForArabella



#ActionsHaveConssequences

The story is honestly better if she dies and Kagha is turned against the dark druids.

There does need to be a low DC check to convince Arabella to simply go to jail.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 20/11/20 08:49 AM
Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
#JusticeForArabella



#ActionsHaveConssequences

The story is honestly better if she dies and Kagha is turned against the dark druids.

There does need to be a low DC check to convince Arabella to simply go to jail.
The story would be better without dark druids. All of the citations referring to them on the FR wiki are BG2 and BG3 self-references, so Abits was right about them being made up by Bioware.
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Kahga - 20/11/20 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
#JusticeForArabella



#ActionsHaveConssequences

The story is honestly better if she dies and Kagha is turned against the dark druids.

There does need to be a low DC check to convince Arabella to simply go to jail.
The story would be better without dark druids. All of the citations referring to them on the FR wiki are BG2 and BG3 self-references, so Abits was right about them being made up by Bioware.

It's been a while since I've played the original games, but I don't recall any talk about shadow druids being made up by Bioware. Searching for "shadow circle" does bring up references outside of the BG games, but I don't play pnp so no idea what is official material or not.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: Kahga - 20/11/20 02:48 PM
Evil druids go back to 3e (2000) in D&D. That was when the old 2e rule of them being True Neutral changed to allow Neutral Evil, Chaotic Neutral and so on. In D&D gaming terms, therefore, 'Shadow Druids' or 'Dark Druids' are nothing new. Their precise titles and motivations, of course, change according to the writer and/or GM.

Whilst I haven't read the old 2e Complete Druid's Handbook, I know that it contained a selection of druid templates. If anyone has access to that book, perhaps they might find a proto-Shadow Druid template therein?
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 20/11/20 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Evil druids go back to 3e (2000) in D&D. That was when the old 2e rule of them being True Neutral changed to allow Neutral Evil, Chaotic Neutral and so on. In D&D gaming terms, therefore, 'Shadow Druids' or 'Dark Druids' are nothing new. Their precise titles and motivations, of course, change according to the writer and/or GM.

Whilst I haven't read the old 2e Complete Druid's Handbook, I know that it contained a selection of druid templates. If anyone has access to that book, perhaps they might find a proto-Shadow Druid template therein?
I meant the specific type of druid called "Shadow Druid" that is tied to that druid from BG2, most of the Shadow Druid lore and indeed the order where the Shadow Druids in BG3 originate from ties into the games and not any older FR lore.
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Kahga - 20/11/20 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Evil druids go back to 3e (2000) in D&D. That was when the old 2e rule of them being True Neutral changed to allow Neutral Evil, Chaotic Neutral and so on. In D&D gaming terms, therefore, 'Shadow Druids' or 'Dark Druids' are nothing new. Their precise titles and motivations, of course, change according to the writer and/or GM.

Whilst I haven't read the old 2e Complete Druid's Handbook, I know that it contained a selection of druid templates. If anyone has access to that book, perhaps they might find a proto-Shadow Druid template therein?
I meant the specific type of druid called "Shadow Druid" that is tied to that druid from BG2, most of the Shadow Druid lore and indeed the order where the Shadow Druids in BG3 originate from ties into the games and not any older FR lore.

And that handbook (which comes up in google search for me) describes shadow circle druids. Afaik this 2ed is what BG1 was based on; I guess the devs came up with calling them "shadow druids", but they didn't invent the concept. While neutral in alignment, their actions would often be considered both chaotic and evil by outsiders, as they followed the "survival of the fittest" philosophy and were strongly anti-civilization.They were also a hidden circle that infiltrated other druidic circles trying to convert them to their side.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 20/11/20 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by ash elemental

And that handbook (which comes up in google search for me) describes shadow circle druids work. Afaik this 2ed is what BG1 was based on. It's in agreement with how Faldorn and the others were portrayed in BG1 & 2; while neutral in alignment, their actions would be considered both chaotic and evil by outsiders, as they followed the "survival of the fittest" philosophy and were strongly anti-civilization.
That sounds great, but that is more anarchoprimitivism and less isolationism if you ask me. A Shadow Druid circle would be burning villages, not hiding away behind bramble in a tiny corner of the world.
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Kahga - 20/11/20 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by ash elemental

And that handbook (which comes up in google search for me) describes shadow circle druids work. Afaik this 2ed is what BG1 was based on. It's in agreement with how Faldorn and the others were portrayed in BG1 & 2; while neutral in alignment, their actions would be considered both chaotic and evil by outsiders, as they followed the "survival of the fittest" philosophy and were strongly anti-civilization.
That sounds great, but that is more anarchoprimitivism and less isolationism if you ask me. A Shadow Druid circle would be burning villages, not hiding away behind bramble in a tiny corner of the world.

Sorry, I just edited my post for clarification. They are not hiding in BG3, they are infiltrating the circle, trying to take over; this is their main goal. Nature's fury and so on, this is what Faldorn used to be about in BG1 too.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 20/11/20 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Sorry, I just edited my post for clarification. They are not hiding in BG3, they are infiltrating the circle, trying to take over; this is their main goal. Nature's fury and so on, this is what Faldorn used to be about in BG1 too.
Were they going to go on the offensive once their chips were down and the grove was sealed then? I don't think this is communicated to the player, nor does that sounds anything like Kagha's plan. Maybe the problem is that Olodan gets hardly any lines?
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Kahga - 20/11/20 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Were they going to go on the offensive once their chips were down and the grove was sealed then? I don't think this is communicated to the player, nor does that sounds anything like Kagha's plan. Maybe the problem is that Olodan gets hardly any lines?

My interpretation is that they simply want the goblins to kill all of the refugees, who represent civilization to them (city folk basically). For Kagha, this might be an initiation rite into the shadow circle. Interestingly, this is similar to an example quoted in that handbook: shadow circle methods include allying with races considered "uncivilized", such as goblins, orcs or giants, as long it is against civilization.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 20/11/20 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Interestingly, this is similar to an example quoted in that handbook: shadow circle methods include allying with races considered "uncivilized", such as goblins, orcs or giants, as long it is against civilization.
That would mean that an ideologically consistent evil Druid player character would end up wiping out the grove with Minthara 🧠
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Kahga - 20/11/20 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Interestingly, this is similar to an example quoted in that handbook: shadow circle methods include allying with races considered "uncivilized", such as goblins, orcs or giants, as long it is against civilization.
That would mean that an ideologically consistent evil Druid player character would end up wiping out the grove with Minthara 🧠

Not necessarily, because Minthara also represents civilization. It's not about evil vs. good, but nature vs. civilization. The goal is not the eradication of all civilized life, but rather destroying all civilized habitats (such as cities and villages), and thus enforcing a return to the more natural ways of life, because it'll be the only way of surviving once civilization is gone.

My guess is that the druids in BG3 are hoping locking of the circle will protect them from Minthara (who for all her posturing doesn't have that much magical power), while goblins slaughtering the tieflings is survival of the fittest in a way.

edit: Evil druids can join the group of all other evil characters who are not happy with how the evil plotline is being handled.
Posted By: Bossk_Hogg Re: Kahga - 20/11/20 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by ash elemental

And that handbook (which comes up in google search for me) describes shadow circle druids work. Afaik this 2ed is what BG1 was based on. It's in agreement with how Faldorn and the others were portrayed in BG1 & 2; while neutral in alignment, their actions would be considered both chaotic and evil by outsiders, as they followed the "survival of the fittest" philosophy and were strongly anti-civilization.
That sounds great, but that is more anarchoprimitivism and less isolationism if you ask me. A Shadow Druid circle would be burning villages, not hiding away behind bramble in a tiny corner of the world.


Kagha is an elf. When you live for over 500 years, isolating for a few while the goblins do the scut work of burning some towns seems a bit more reasonable.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 21/11/20 09:27 AM
Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg

Kagha is an elf. When you live for over 500 years, isolating for a few while the goblins do the scut work of burning some towns seems a bit more reasonable.
Kagha is also the head of a racially diverse grove with humans and gnomes who can't afford to spend their entire life waiting for some minor conflict to blow over.
Posted By: Ari Re: Kahga - 24/11/20 10:43 AM
I just find kagha’s writing hamfisted, regardless of the background lore behind the shadow druids or druids in general. As if Larian has no faith that I will see her in the wrong unless she is a raving lunatic who kills children. Not enough to be apathetic towards the plight of the tieflings in favor of her own nest, gotta call them parasites and advocate for ethnic cleansing. Gotta make the dead child scene a nigh impossibility to avoid. Maybe if she returns for another chapter, she will take on the gentleman’s game of kitten kicking. Druids need to pass the time under the dome of thorns somehow after all.

If anything, Arabella’s death felt more like a consequence that should have cone for royally screwing up an interaction. Or perhaps the influence of an evil pc playing the devil on the shoulder. Making it this difficult to avoid seems more an encounter for the goblin camp.
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Kahga - 24/11/20 11:09 AM
I prefer the old-fashioned neutral druids, because their goals of protecting nature and preserving the balance was something different to the usual good vs. evil axis, which is what most cRPGs tend to focus solely on. I'd rather have them put the survival of the grove first than risk the grove for the tieflings. Might as well make them good aligned priests of some nature-related deity in that case. I'm not a big fan of either Kagha or Halsin as they currently are.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 24/11/20 01:22 PM
Originally Posted by Ari
I just find kagha’s writing hamfisted, regardless of the background lore behind the shadow druids or druids in general. As if Larian has no faith that I will see her in the wrong unless she is a raving lunatic who kills children. Not enough to be apathetic towards the plight of the tieflings in favor of her own nest, gotta call them parasites and advocate for ethnic cleansing. Gotta make the dead child scene a nigh impossibility to avoid. Maybe if she returns for another chapter, she will take on the gentleman’s game of kitten kicking. Druids need to pass the time under the dome of thorns somehow after all.

If anything, Arabella’s death felt more like a consequence that should have cone for royally screwing up an interaction. Or perhaps the influence of an evil pc playing the devil on the shoulder. Making it this difficult to avoid seems more an encounter for the goblin camp.
It's also quite amusing to see Early Access marketed as "live out your evil fantasies!" and then a character like Kagha shows up who is so evil that even Lolth Drow wouldn't side with her. Not that you can side with her, for that matter.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
I prefer the old-fashioned neutral druids, because their goals of protecting nature and preserving the balance was something different to the usual good vs. evil axis, which is what most cRPGs tend to focus solely on. I'd rather have them put the survival of the grove first than risk the grove for the tieflings. Might as well make them good aligned priests of some nature-related deity in that case. I'm not a big fan of either Kagha or Halsin as they currently are.
Completely agree with you. If the druids need a hamfisted alignment like this then what differentiates them from Paladins / Demons now.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Kahga - 24/11/20 01:29 PM
Druids are vary depends on the Circle but as is common to see neutral druids of Silvanus is also common to see evil druid of Silvanus as well. It mostly depend on the Circle. Is not like all druid must be neutral. There are also chaotic evil druids the circle of fury druids as well.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 24/11/20 01:31 PM
Originally Posted by Rieline
Druids are vary depends on the Circle but as is common to see neutral druids of Silvanus is also common to see evil druid of Silvanus as well. It mostly depend on the Circle. Is not like all druid must be neutral. There are also chaotic evil druids the circle of fury druids as well.
Unless they are under the influence of Shadow Druids, which apparently turns them into remorseless child killing extremist xenophobes.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Kahga - 24/11/20 01:39 PM
No all the druidic circles are tolerant or neutral. It don't take much for a circle of Silvanus to become way less tolerant all it takes is an Archdruid that lead the circle in that direction. Archdruid have the final word in everything. Like i explained in past Silvanus circles are often not open to the outsiders even the pure neutral ones. In the case of Khaga is different factors that turns her the way she is.

Druids are not hippy. And the circle represented in the game were belonging to Silvanus. And in the case of the Grove is truly evident how many druids, included Khaga thing the balance in the area is disrupted this alone could bring a circle to take action and even if neutral they could even take openly hostile action.

I think Khaga wants to appear always in the right but in the end she was not the one killing the child. Her vyper was. The prejudice she had on the Tiefling was in this case aggravated by the fact that the girl ((even if she did that to aid the others)) stole the silvanus idol. But overall Tiefling are often victim of prejudice.
Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: Kahga - 24/11/20 02:02 PM
Druids are always shitlords, honestly.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Kahga - 24/11/20 02:09 PM
Like i already said i play in this setting since Advanced Dungeons and Dragon. And more i were learning about the situation more i were thinking ((uh oh.. This is going to be very problematic)).

For what concerns me Larian was true to the setting when designed this situation. We also have to keep in mind that for many players this is a setting they know soley by the Videogames Bg/Bg2/Icw/icw2/nwn/nwn2 in those games excluded baldurs gate 2 potrayal of the druid were largerly: We are the nature guys that loves to hugs trees.

So they may lack the informations on the setting that would explain a lot of things.
Posted By: Bossk_Hogg Re: Kahga - 24/11/20 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Rieline
Druids are vary depends on the Circle but as is common to see neutral druids of Silvanus is also common to see evil druid of Silvanus as well. It mostly depend on the Circle. Is not like all druid must be neutral. There are also chaotic evil druids the circle of fury druids as well.
Unless they are under the influence of Shadow Druids, which apparently turns them into remorseless child killing extremist xenophobes.



Settle down Beavis. She didnt kill the kid. The snake did when the kid shoves the guard and tries to flee. And she's not exactly happy about it as evidenced by her look of horror before she regains her icy composure.
Posted By: FelLich Re: Kahga - 24/11/20 07:22 PM
Sure the private killed the kid but the sergeant gave the order. But yes she definitely fucked up and realizes it immediately of course Rath stands there like a muppet. Kagha's not a leader she's a puppet to the shadow druid. Her hostile composure constantly breaks, if you come in as an under being she immediately tries to seek validation from you. If you talk her down from the kid killing she comes across as someone hopped up rather than someone cold and in control. Talking her into breaking from the Shadow Druids she sounds confused and naïve, if successful, if you fail she hardens her resolve. Though, if knock out actually did something a good ass kicking would probably also smarten her up.

Druids always stuck me as xenophobic and haughty, I suppose these ones are just more blatant.
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Kahga - 24/11/20 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by Rieline
Like i already said i play in this setting since Advanced Dungeons and Dragon. And more i were learning about the situation more i were thinking ((uh oh.. This is going to be very problematic)).

For what concerns me Larian was true to the setting when designed this situation. We also have to keep in mind that for many players this is a setting they know soley by the Videogames Bg/Bg2/Icw/icw2/nwn/nwn2 in those games excluded baldurs gate 2 potrayal of the druid were largerly: We are the nature guys that loves to hugs trees


For me it's not whether they are true to the setting, because I agree they are. My point was that Kagha and Halsin, as they are, feel unnecessary. The conflict between the druids, trying to protect the grove because it's a sacred place, and desperate refugees, whose presence is putting the grove at risk, would have been more interesting without the entire good vs. evil druid leader subplot.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Kahga - 24/11/20 11:29 PM
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Rieline
Like i already said i play in this setting since Advanced Dungeons and Dragon. And more i were learning about the situation more i were thinking ((uh oh.. This is going to be very problematic)).

For what concerns me Larian was true to the setting when designed this situation. We also have to keep in mind that for many players this is a setting they know soley by the Videogames Bg/Bg2/Icw/icw2/nwn/nwn2 in those games excluded baldurs gate 2 potrayal of the druid were largerly: We are the nature guys that loves to hugs trees


For me it's not whether they are true to the setting, because I agree they are. My point was that Kagha and Halsin, as they are, feel unnecessary. The conflict between the druids, trying to protect the grove because it's a sacred place, and desperate refugees, whose presence is putting the grove at risk, would have been more interesting without the entire good vs. evil druid leader subplot.


It is not a good versus evil at all. As i explained several posts ago for the Druids the circle is something sacred so sacred that is usually well hidden and well shielded from outsider. Halsin accepted the refugees then the situation started to turn worse from the entire area. A chain of events happened Halsin disappeared and the druid found theyrself filled with problems they are just protecting their circle there is not evil about that. Even when the snakes killed the child Khaga seems very shocked about it probably she were not expecting the child to attempt to flee.

Steal an idol of Silvanus even only attempt to do it on a Circle of Silvanus is usually a death sentence even if the circle is neutral. In a druid mind the overall balance comes at the first place refugees means settling down. Settling down means deplete the natural resources of the area and turning the area Civilized. Now you can see the area is already partially civilized as there is a village not far from the grove. Like i said is a chain of events that brought the druids to take a drastic decision.

Silvanite druids care only for civilized people usually when they represent a threat for the place they have a circle in. It may be hills or forests is not important. Silvanite usually manipulate to keep in control the advancing of the civilization and are far from tolerant. They are not violent but they are not tolerant.

If you pay attention you can see a lot of huts. Platforms. Even a gate built around the grove that is not a thing that Silvanus druids do.
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Kahga - 25/11/20 10:03 AM
Originally Posted by Rieline


It is not a good versus evil at all. As i explained several posts ago for the Druids the circle is something sacred so sacred that is usually well hidden and well shielded from outsider. Halsin accepted the refugees then the situation started to turn worse from the entire area. A chain of events happened Halsin disappeared and the druid found theyrself filled with problems they are just protecting their circle there is not evil about that. Even when the snakes killed the child Khaga seems very shocked about it probably she were not expecting the child to attempt to flee.


And I disagree. Kagha's actions are evil; she is threatening a young child with her deadly viper. As an adult elf she surely has lived long enough to understand that a child this young doesn't have the capacity to fully grasp the consequences of her actions, and that when faced with a deadly threat a child will very likely panic. Kagha, or any of the other druids, is capable of physically restraining a child without harming them, so they could have simply locked her up. She chooses instead to threaten Arabella with her viper, which is both cruel and an unnecessary use of force. It's the classic "mwhahaha chaotic evil" of harming someone weaker because you can. And Kagha seems shocked that a little kid acted out of fear in such a situation? I'd like to know what her wisdom score is, really.

The above adds nothing to the druids vs tiefling conflict in my opinion. Sometimes less is better in storytelling.
Posted By: T2aV Re: Kahga - 25/11/20 10:12 AM
Faerun is full of "xenophobic" races. Every single one, in one way or another. That's DnD.
Posted By: T2aV Re: Kahga - 25/11/20 10:24 AM
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Rieline



And I disagree. Kagha's actions are evil; she is threatening a young child with her deadly viper. As an adult elf she surely has lived long enough to understand that a child this young doesn't have the capacity to fully grasp the consequences of her actions, and that when faced with a deadly threat a child will very likely panic. Kagha, or any of the other druids, is capable of physically restraining a child without harming them, so they could have simply locked her up. She chooses instead to threaten Arabella with her viper, which is both cruel and an unnecessary use of force. It's the classic "mwhahaha chaotic evil" of harming someone weaker because you can. And Kagha seems shocked that a little kid acted out of fear in such a situation? I'd like to know what her wisdom score is, really.

The above adds nothing to the druids vs tiefling conflict in my opinion. Sometimes less is better in storytelling.


arabella is apart of crime syndicate run by mol. They are thieves, They fully grasp what they are doing. khaga planned to lock her up, she decided to try and flee? Try and steal any holy relic from any of the major/minor religions in faerun and you would be slaughtered on the spot, child or not( especially a tiefling). Even a Lawful Good diety like Tyr would have you tried and executed for such a crime.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 25/11/20 10:28 AM
Originally Posted by T2aV
arabella is apart of crime syndicate run by mol. They are thieves, They fully grasp what they are doing. khaga planned to lock her up, she decided to try and flee? Try and steal any holy relic from any of the major/minor religions in faerun and you would be slaughtered on the spot, child or not( especially a tiefling). Even a Lawful Good diety like Tyr would have you tried and executed for such a crime.
Why does this take keep popping up? Last time I heard that all the Tieflings are "in a crime syndicate" and therefore irredeemable. Isn't it more that this is their ticket into Baldur's Gate? You know, the "noble refugee turned noble criminal" trope?
Posted By: EMC_V Re: Kahga - 25/11/20 10:36 AM
Kagha is a shadow druid like Faldorn (neutral evil).

As for the stealing a sacred relic, I disagree that all faerun religions would kill the ofender. Lawful good might if they are more lawful than good. But that would not be good even if the thief is an adult. It would be neutral being generous. After all, death penalty for theft is against human rights. It might be lawful, but still moraly wrong.

And I think that is exactly the point. Arabella is a thief, she is not inocent, but she doesn't deserve to be killed anyway. She deserves a more balanced punishment, not death. And a Tyr palladin would know that. Punish should fit the crime otherwise there is no justice, just revenge.
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Kahga - 25/11/20 12:57 PM
Originally Posted by T2aV


arabella is apart of crime syndicate run by mol. They are thieves, They fully grasp what they are doing. khaga planned to lock her up, she decided to try and flee? Try and steal any holy relic from any of the major/minor religions in faerun and you would be slaughtered on the spot, child or not( especially a tiefling). Even a Lawful Good diety like Tyr would have you tried and executed for such a crime.

And what a great syndicate it is, run by a bunch of kids hiding in a cave. Kagha could have easily locked her up without killing her; the druids are all adults (and spellcasters to boot), and Arabella is an unarmed little girl. Kagha chooses to use a viper, when she knows how deadly snakes are and how they act. As a druid she is fully aware of the high risk involved. I doubt a good-aligned deity would be in favor of executing a child in this situation. Simply following the law without mercy is lawful neutral, not good.
Posted By: Eldath Re: Kahga - 25/11/20 01:54 PM
If the writing offends you it accomplished it's goal. Keep in mind that druids are supposed to be about upholding some natural order of sorts, and planetouched people, like tieflings are very much an anomaly to the natural order of the prime material plane. Sylvanus and druids in general are not about being fair, being just or even being nice, so I don't see why they wouldn't be hostile to a bunch of demon-looking creatures who have flames for eyes and steal their stuff. Appealing to modern sentiments of "human rights" makes no sense because tieflings are not humans, Kagha is not human, in fact we are talking about species that are only connected via their ability to interbreed. This doesn't mean that suddenly everyone is just another flavour of human.
Furthermore you could argue that the idea of "equality" or "human rights" are a product of civilization, so druids could be explained to be naturally opposed to that.
Just my two cents.
Posted By: EMC_V Re: Kahga - 25/11/20 02:57 PM
I don't think the writing is ofensive. But druids can be any neutral alignment. From neutral good, true neutral, legal neutral, chaotic neutral and neutral evil. Kagha is neutral evil.

Kagha is not human, but it is humanoid. And Tieflins don't upset the natural order more than a human. As far as chapter 1 goes, zentarim and the inn or the goblins are a bigger threath to balance.
Posted By: Eldath Re: Kahga - 25/11/20 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by EMC_V
I don't think the writing is ofensive. But druids can be any neutral alignment. From neutral good, true neutral, legal neutral, chaotic neutral and neutral evil. Kagha is neutral evil.

Kagha is not human, but it is humanoid. And Tieflins don't upset the natural order more than a human. As far as chapter 1 goes, zentarim and the inn or the goblins are a bigger threath to balance.


Tieflings are quite literally creatures with extraplanar heritage. They carry the nature of the lower planes within their blood. At best druids would see them as diseased abominations, at worst they would be seen a corruption of nature. Humans and tieflings can't be equivocated in this case, because humans are a natural/native part of the world of Abeir-Toril and part of it's natural order, while tieflings are quite literally outsiders by nature. I would fully expect druids to dispatch extraplanar creatures on sight or to banish them.

Kagha not being human has no bearing on the issue at all. The point I wanted to make is that only humans are human, so talking about "human rights" makes no sense, especially amongst people who stand for untamed nature as opposed to civilization.

Also, the goblins being a threat doesn't mean that tieflings are suddenly not a threat. I think that if Kagha decided to exterminate them both, she would be authentic to her own professed value system.
Sylvanus himself is a morally unaligned deity, he doesn't care if his followers kill children or do things that would be considered evil. Sylvanus just wants results.
Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: Kahga - 25/11/20 06:07 PM
Originally Posted by T2aV

Try and steal any holy relic from any of the major/minor religions in faerun and you would be slaughtered on the spot, child or not( especially a tiefling). Even a Lawful Good diety like Tyr would have you tried and executed for such a crime.



I strongly disagree. This statement flies in the face of everything I've read about the Forgotten Realms, its good deities, and the good alignments in general.
Posted By: Leuenherz Re: Kahga - 25/11/20 06:22 PM
Tyr especially teaches that justice has to be tempered by mercy. And there are many faiths of benevolent gods, where the death penalty would never be a prospect for some desperate urchin, tiefling or not.

Kagha isn't justified in what she is doing, although she feels the opposite is true. That is kind of the entire point of her character. She is a druid, but with extremist and xenophobic leanings.

The only reason she is even in her position is because there is a lack of other leadership figures competing with her and she is the only one pushing for a "solution" in times of fear and turmoil. Now, because all of that is reflecting a lot of what is going on in the political climate everywhere in the real world, she might seem too modern for the setting. But really, this kind of situation would not be out of place in *any* historical time period, including the ones DnD or the Forgotten Realms are based on.
Posted By: Eldath Re: Kahga - 25/11/20 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by Leuenherz


Kagha isn't justified in what she is doing, although she feels the opposite is true. That is kind of the entire point of her character. She is a druid, but with extremist and xenophobic leanings.



How is she not justified? You are projecting your views on her. According to her own religion she is well within her rights to do exactly what she does, and if the ritual works that pretty much means that Sylvanus approves. Again, xenophobia against extraplanar outsiders is not something I would describe as "wrong" according to the value-system of a Sylvanus-worshipping druid. Sylvanus doesn't care about your morality as long as you get the job done.
Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: Kahga - 25/11/20 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by Eldath
According to her own religion she is well within her rights to do exactly what she does,



According to their religion, gnolls are well within their rights to murder and eat literally anyone they come across. I doubt many people in the Realms would consider them to be justified.
Posted By: Eldath Re: Kahga - 25/11/20 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Eldath
According to her own religion she is well within her rights to do exactly what she does,



According to their religion, gnolls are well within their rights to murder and eat literally anyone they come across. I doubt many people in the Realms would consider them to be justified.

Gnolls are demonic spawns of Yeenoghu, they would face the same attitude from druids as tieflings.
However I agree, most of the realms would not consider them justified which is pretty much the reason why they have their own communities far from civilization. That being said, as druids of Sylvanus within their own domain they have the right to do as they please as long as Sylvanus is not offended. Why? Because it's their turf.
Posted By: Leuenherz Re: Kahga - 25/11/20 09:20 PM
Originally Posted by Eldath
Originally Posted by Leuenherz


Kagha isn't justified in what she is doing, although she feels the opposite is true. That is kind of the entire point of her character. She is a druid, but with extremist and xenophobic leanings.



How is she not justified? You are projecting your views on her. According to her own religion she is well within her rights to do exactly what she does, and if the ritual works that pretty much means that Sylvanus approves. Again, xenophobia against extraplanar outsiders is not something I would describe as "wrong" according to the value-system of a Sylvanus-worshipping druid. Sylvanus doesn't care about your morality as long as you get the job done.


Your accusation rings false.

In fact, I do not recall ever reading material that confirms your characterization of Silvanus and his faith, nor the laws of his faith. It seems like conjecture on your part, based on your personal definition of what his alignment entails.

Nor do I think druidic attitude towards outsiders is as uniform as you describe. Let us not forget that fey (dryads among them) are outsiders as well.

Finally, I do not remember all the details of the druidic ritual, but druidic magic is not in and of itself divine in nature, and therefore not dependent on the approval of any god. Further, even for clerics, it is not common for a god to immediately thwart magic that is cast in a way that contradicts the tenets of their faith. Rather, withholding magic happens as a consequence of, often repeated, misconduct of their faithful.
Lastly, the ritual Kagha wants to perform and Silvanus's approval thereof are independent of her hostility towards the tieflings and her treatment of Arabella.

Kagha may reject common morality, reasoning based on her faith or otherwise. But that does not, in fact, absolve them of their immoral nature. After all, any evil character could use the same slippery slope if that were true.


TL;DR: Kagha a bad bitch
Posted By: SaurianDruid Re: Kahga - 26/11/20 04:44 AM
Kagha is pretty well justified in imprisoning the girl for trying to steal their sacred idol. Which is what Kagha was attempting to do. She was never intent on using the death penalty, at least not based on what the game tells us. She also is visibly horrified when her snake kills the girl.

Arabella's death was an accident. One caused by Kagha's mishandling of the situation, but still an accident.

Out of curiosity does Halsin's punishment of Kagha change depending on if Arabella died or not? I've only freed Halsin twice so far and both times I was able to talk Kagha down with a nature check.

As for the actual topic of the thread, something I think would go a long way to making the Kagha choice more compelling is if we were directed toward investigating her and the shadow druids. So far in all my playthroughs I've never actually found the shadow druid evidence because I've not found anything that tells me I should be investigating anything in the first place. It seems like something you'd only stumble upon if you went snooping on your own.

I also want to punch that one elf druid in the face. One of Kagha's supporters. I can't remember his name but he's in the room with Rath and Loic.
Posted By: Ari Re: Kahga - 26/11/20 06:12 AM
Halsin’s punishment is the same no matter if the child dies or not. If Arabella dies, you do get to call him out on his leniency.
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Kahga - 26/11/20 07:19 AM
Originally Posted by Eldath

Gnolls are demonic spawns of Yeenoghu, they would face the same attitude from druids as tieflings.

Times must have changed then, because from what I remember BG and BG2 gave an example of a druid defending gnolls in character creation.
Posted By: SaurianDruid Re: Kahga - 26/11/20 09:55 AM
Originally Posted by ash elemental

Times must have changed then, because from what I remember BG and BG2 gave an example of a druid defending gnolls in character creation.


Yah, 5e totally re-wrote gnoll lore and made them fleshy demon-spawn. They aren't just a beast race anymore which is very upsetting to me as it means it is impossible to make a gnoll PC for the Forgotten Realms.
Posted By: Eldath Re: Kahga - 26/11/20 11:13 AM
Originally Posted by Leuenherz

In fact, I do not recall ever reading material that confirms your characterization of Silvanus and his faith, nor the laws of his faith.

Then you mustn't have read much about it at all. The followers of Silvanus are known for vigorously and VIOLENTLY defending their home turf.

Originally Posted by Leuenherz

Nor do I think druidic attitude towards outsiders is as uniform as you describe.

The church of Sylvanus is exremely diverse when it comes to moral outlooks because Silvanus doesn't care about morality at all as long as your promote the protection of untamed wilderness. We are talking about a Druidic cult of Silvanus druids here, not of any other deity.

Originally Posted by Leuenherz

druidic magic is not in and of itself divine in nature

Not only is this false in general, it's especially false in a circle of druids who get their spells from Silvanus.

Originally Posted by Leuenherz

it is not common for a god to immediately thwart magic that is cast in a way that contradicts the tenets of their faith

False, again. The only deities that would roll with that are chaotic deities, like Lolth who allowed one of her clerics to heal Drizzt in one of the books. And then she punished the cleric, but that's Lolth being insane.
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Kahga - 26/11/20 11:14 AM
Originally Posted by SaurianDruid

Yah, 5e totally re-wrote gnoll lore and made them fleshy demon-spawn. They aren't just a beast race anymore which is very upsetting to me as it means it is impossible to make a gnoll PC for the Forgotten Realms.

That's disappointing to hear. smirk
Posted By: Leuenherz Re: Kahga - 26/11/20 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by Eldath
snip


Hardly, they are known for opposing the expansion of industrious peoples, *sometimes* violently. They do not protect a "turf" like some kind of youth gang, they guard nature and its balance. The temporary presence of refugees and a bumbling theft attempt committed by a small child are a far cry from, say, a forest being chopped down to make room for a new town.

The specification you are now trying to promote in regards to Silvanus's druids did not at all exist in your earlier post (when you were talking about banishment of outsiders), but that's secondary. Silvanus is characterized as "harsh but fair" and as a distant deity. But that is not the same as the "by any means necessary" attitude you are trying to ascribe to him here. Even in nature, whose impartial fairness Silvanus emulates, the young of animals enjoy "puppy license". While it is perfectly in character for Silvanus to mete out punishment to a child or his approval thereof, it seems very unlikely he would choose death, not for Arabella's crime in any case.

I think you are operating on outdated information here (3.x, from the sounds of it). Druids may draw the power of their spells from different sources, just as clerics or paladins now can. I will concede, however, that this particular circle in all likelihood gets their magic from Silvanus, as a nature deity is still a *possible* source.

Yet, in another novel (Brimstone Angels), Torm himself only takes the magic of his young acolyte away after the latter has misused it at least once, and he does not reverse the results of the previous misuse.
5e does not provide a lot of information on this, except for paladins, but even if I think back, the loss of features and spells is always a consequence of something the character has already done (usually resulting in an alignment shift), which they are then being punished for.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Regardless, I can tell we are getting lost in the minutiae of a sideshow here. In the interest of both of our time:

I think Kagha's actions are excessive and immoral, despite her attempted justifications. You argue that she is justified within the framework of her faith and value system.

We have both argued, presumably, to the best of our knowledge, though both largely without providing sources.

I have said my piece. If you have, agree to disagree and go our merry ways?
Posted By: Eldath Re: Kahga - 26/11/20 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by Leuenherz
Originally Posted by Eldath
snip


snip


Regardless I provided enough evidence that justifies Kagha's behaviour as not uncommon or unacceptable according to Silvanus's standards, which are the only standards she should care about as a Silvanus druid. The rest is literally just people coping about their convenient morality.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 26/11/20 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by Eldath
Regardless I provided enough evidence that justifies Kagha's behaviour as not uncommon or unacceptable according to Silvanus's standards, which are the only standards she should care about as a Silvanus druid. The rest is literally just people coping about their convenient morality.
Then why Halsin.

He makes no sense in this context if everyone else in the grove acts so extremely antithetical to his beliefs. It almost makes me believe his defining flaw will be that he never-ever pays attention to his rank and file.
Posted By: EMC_V Re: Kahga - 26/11/20 06:21 PM
Silvanus acept neutral evil followers. It is just one step from true neutral.

Silvanus accepting Kagha doesn't make her less evil. Faldorn was also evil and a druid.
Posted By: Zellin Re: Kahga - 26/11/20 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Eldath
Regardless I provided enough evidence that justifies Kagha's behaviour as not uncommon or unacceptable according to Silvanus's standards, which are the only standards she should care about as a Silvanus druid. The rest is literally just people coping about their convenient morality.
Then why Halsin.

He makes no sense in this context if everyone else in the grove acts so extremely antithetical to his beliefs. It almost makes me believe his defining flaw will be that he never-ever pays attention to his rank and file.

It pretty much what he says about whole situation. When he talks to you about going to Moonrise towers, you can ask him about how the grove will be without him and he'll admit that he never was a good leader and all what happend is his fault first of all.
Posted By: SaurianDruid Re: Kahga - 26/11/20 11:19 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Then why Halsin.

He makes no sense in this context if everyone else in the grove acts so extremely antithetical to his beliefs. It almost makes me believe his defining flaw will be that he never-ever pays attention to his rank and file.


Not everyone in the grove rejects Halsin's beliefs. Rath exists pretty much entirely to inform us that there are druids who abhor Kagha's views. There's also that druid with the bird who is searching silently for Halsin and presumably Nettie since she's going on with her normal duties rather than working on the ritual. Zevlor even points you in her direction which he wouldn't do if Nettie was refusing to heal outsiders. The druid trader also seems concerned for the tieflings and seems there to pass out supplies.

I also don't think everyone working on the ritual is necessarily as extreme as Kagha. Desperation can push people to do uncharacteristic things and we are told this is a very desperate situation.

What really needs to be done is show the desperation more on the side of the druids. Maybe have one talk about how the regional forests have suffered because the druids have had to re-direct their efforts into aiding the tieflings. Have another mention that their magic has been stretched thin trying to accommodate them and that several druids have died defending the grove from monster attacks.

And like I said earlier we need an NPC to direct us toward investigating Kagha. The bird druid who doesn't want to talk seems like a good candidate. if you press the issue maybe she tells the PC that she's heard whispering from inside Kagha's room and is suspicious of those rats that are always following her but don't respond when spoken to.

Also the opportunity to join the Shadow Druids if you're a druid or ranger would be really cool. I have a neutral evil druid concept that'd fit in perfectly with what they are all about.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Kahga - 26/11/20 11:30 PM
Your bets, in the new patch Kaga will be bad or Kaga will not be bad?
Posted By: FelLich Re: Kahga - 27/11/20 12:28 AM
They might smooth things out, make a change here and there but I highly doubt they'll be making massive character changes to anyone in the grove.
Posted By: SaurianDruid Re: Kahga - 27/11/20 12:59 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if they at least made the DC to save Arabella easier. Or added a DEX roll to intercept the snake before it bites her, which is something I think really should've been in from the start.

It'd be really interesting to see how Kagha reacts to almost getting a child killed. Who knows? Maybe that would scare her straight. Actually killing Arabella forces her to double down on her evil or admit she royally messed up, but seeing the possible consequence without it actually going through could snap her out of her mindset pretty quick.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Kahga - 27/11/20 01:11 AM
#JusticeForArabella
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 27/11/20 08:42 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Your bets, in the new patch Kaga will be bad or Kaga will not be bad?
They are probably focusing on the Absolute first so my chips are on still bad.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Kahga - 27/11/20 03:23 PM
There is a lot to be said. But for once i am glad this thread went up. While i don't believe Khaga acting was over the place as she clearly is leaning toward evil and Silvanus is a deity that accepts also evil followers those kind of discussion are truly engaging.

I play in this setting since the Advanced Dungeons and Dragon. Some editions made more damage than good like the 4th edition that broken so much the overall lore that many people that started with that usually lacks the past knowledge and many notions.
However for being a such hot debate this thread was respectful we should have more threads like this.

On Khaga:
For how she appears i think she is a Sun elf now Sun elf were always very elitist in nature that put strenght also on her attitude of low tollerance.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 30/11/20 05:23 PM
With the next patch slated for either tonight or tomorrow I'm looking forward to any Kagha / grove questline changes.
Posted By: MagusLascivious Re: Kahga - 30/11/20 06:58 PM
I thought Kagha was great.
Not everyone wants to roleplay a bleeding heart do gooder all the time (it's bad enough to have to do it IRL) and she gives us the option to cause more chaos and do more selfish evil. It's nice to have games with LOADS of options for how you play and what you do. Playthough as 'yourself' on a run, playthrough making the seemingly 'right' choices on a run and make a completely selfish and evil run... that's part of the fun.

She didn't even kill the kid, her out of control snake did.. And weather you want to believe it or not she represents a good percentage of the human population today(no I don't mean xenophobic and racist, I mean tribal and wanting to protect their own and their way of life) and yes, I know she's a fictional elf, but that just works out more for my argument than against it as fiction always mirrors reality in some sense and a fictional character can be whatever the creator wants them to be weather you like it or not. Looking just a hundred years or so back in human history will show all of that you need to see and if we compare to our own dark ages (when kings sat in castles and knights rode out) Women and children wore rarely spared. Hell, looking at the middle east and other chunks of the world today will give you plenty of examples of stuff like this... Also, I don't recall being asked to kill tieflings, just tell them to leave so she can seal the grove and protect her people. That's pretty realistic... (Now I want to play a Drow and see if I can kill them all before I tell the goblins where the grove is....just to look for that option)

Reading back to your opening post, It seems like you're just calling for some soft, politically correct, social justice nonsense to be implemented because you don't see how anyone would ever take a fictional characters side in a role playing game because you think it's evil...

"The player is not necessarily incentivized to act on the Tieflings' behalf" - Nor should they be.. that's why it's called a choice... But, I'd argue that they're not really incentivized to act on anyones behalf but their own.
" I basically had to admit to Kagha that I am a racist and wanted to see hellspawn removed from this plane of existence." - Sounds like you don't like that this choice exists because it rubs you the wrong way.... That's kind of selfish and silly.. it's a game...
"If you happen to be a rational human being and ignore the path I described in the second paragraph" - Jesus Christ man.. can you virtue signal any harder... It's a game with story options.. Options that are based in the historical reality of animalistic behavior, including human... and humans have been on this planet for over 100k years. We survived a great many things by being tribal. Really, it's the last couple hundred years that have let us be comfortable and safe enough to pretend otherwise.
"Now, ignoring the matter of the real-world political implications of a xenophobic populist rallying ignorant people against harmless refugees for a moment (because God knows we want to stay clear of that" - PFFT, BWHAHAHA, you do, because you're projecting too hard...
" the problem is that there really is no moral choice here" - Morals are subjective... always have been, always will be.
" If you really want to salvage her character I would start by cutting the child murder scene" - Nope, that scene was important in establishing what kind of person we are dealing with and how out of control she actually is. It gives us reason to go hunting for answers and fight mud mephits. It's nice to see Haslin slap her wrist and talk the childs parents into killing her at the little party later.

In the end it's a game, and trying to project your rose colored version of life on to it just seems ridiculous. Seems like the Tiefling kid being killed offended some part of you and the rest of Kaghas character just added to it. That doesn't mean it needs to go because it upset you.. it was supposed to upset you.. that was the point...
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Kahga - 30/11/20 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
slated for either tonight or tomorrow

Where exactly did you get this information? O_o
Posted By: SaurianDruid Re: Kahga - 04/12/20 06:55 AM
Originally Posted by SaurianDruid
I wouldn't be surprised if they at least made the DC to save Arabella easier.



Seems I was right. At least the nature check changed. It used to be a 16 I think, and now it is seems to be a 12.

Anyone else checked what the persuasion check is now?
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 04/12/20 11:39 AM
There are no changes to her story I've noticed, the "Kagha path" is still more like a failstate than a real option. Zevlor attacks you, you report his death to Kagha as if he died at the grove gate and that was that.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Kahga - 04/12/20 02:31 PM
We Demand More Kagha Content!
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 09/03/21 12:56 PM
Is Kagha still bad asking for a friend
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Kahga - 09/03/21 05:13 PM
She never was. :P
Posted By: agouzov Re: Kahga - 09/03/21 05:24 PM
I love that you can now get Teela the snake to step in and reason with Kagha. It's a cool way to save Arabella without having to do a check if you approach her in animal form.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Kahga - 09/03/21 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by agouzov
I love that you can now get Teela the snake to step in and reason with Kagha. It's a cool way to save Arabella without having to do a check if you approach her in animal form.

Really? I have to try that.

As for Khaga, I like her redemption arc, if you manage to talk her down from helping the shadow Druids.
But I do think, she isn't very sincere in the conversation with Halsin. Maybe because she doesn't respect him? She is much more open to us, total strangers, about her motives and regrets, than she is with Halsin, her mentor.
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Kahga - 09/03/21 09:41 PM
You get an option to talk to the snake during the dialogue with Kagha too, provided your druid has that "speak with animals" spell active.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Kahga - 09/03/21 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by agouzov
I love that you can now get Teela the snake to step in and reason with Kagha. It's a cool way to save Arabella without having to do a check if you approach her in animal form.

Really? I have to try that.

As for Khaga, I like her redemption arc, if you manage to talk her down from helping the shadow Druids.
But I do think, she isn't very sincere in the conversation with Halsin. Maybe because she doesn't respect him? She is much more open to us, total strangers, about her motives and regrets, than she is with Halsin, her mentor.

Maybe they could add something like a degree of resentment that helped push her to this direction and even with things being "fixed" that resentment is not resolved and probably never will?
Posted By: Adiktus Re: Kahga - 09/03/21 11:21 PM
"Politically correct". "Virtue signalling". Shame you couldn't squeeze a few "wokes" in there as well.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Kahga - 10/03/21 09:52 AM
Originally Posted by Adiktus
"Politically correct". "Virtue signalling". Shame you couldn't squeeze a few "wokes" in there as well.
It was a different time.
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