Larian Studios
This isn't your typical "I start out as a farmer and take up adventuring as a profession after the dragon ate my flock" sort of story. All of the pre-rolled characters have a decent backstory that seems to indicate that they've been doing this a while. You can't tell me that in the 200 years since Astarion was turned into a vampire that he didn't pick up more than the basics of picking locks. Even worse is the thought that Gale was wandering the planes but still can't cast more than a couple of level 1 spells.

Maybe start out at level 5 or something like that. Makes it a bit more plausible unless later on all the characters say that the tadpole must have chewed on the part of the brain that contains all their previous experience.

I'm enjoying the various backstories the characters have and their different personalities, it's just this part of the equation is leaving me scratch my head.
Starting as a lv 1 char on candlekeep is ok

Starting as a lv 1 char in a middle of a epic fight between mindflayers and his spelljammer ship vs a draconic army = not ok
Posted By: Tuco Re: Why do we start out at level 1? [SPOILERS] - 25/10/20 10:57 PM
Hey, I say that if an Archdruid can be level 4, a level 1 can wander the planes.

Just kidding, you're right, it's one of the inherent silly things about fictional settings and the attempt to tie them to level systems without thinking too much about the incongruences.


Not to derail the tread but I'd also take the chance to point to Larian that:

1- Not every NPC we meet has to be necessarily in our level range, especially if the plot suggests he/she should be a power house by our standards.
It's nice that you leave us the option to attack and kill anyone in the game, but being free to try doesn't mean we should be able to do it.
2- ..And as we are on topic, I don't think we really need to SEE the level of every NPC stated under his name to begin with.

Posted By: Orbax Re: Why do we start out at level 1? [SPOILERS] - 25/10/20 10:59 PM
If you've played PnP you know people usually have a bio of

I am Ket'Narath. I was spun out of the Chaotic energies of the Abyss born whole. Within the first 10 minutes I had already drank my first belly full of blood as I laid the shattered body of a Glabrezu at the feet of Baphomet himself. I was blessed that day with what some may call a curse. In the heat of battle I can no longer tell friend from foe, all life is to be taken in His glory. I have helped topple kings, I have trophy hunted those favored by Llolth, the Bitch Queen, to paint their tunnels with a warning that He is coming, and I am his HERALD.

[Linked Image]

5 minutes later:

Does a 12 hit?

- Yep, roll for damage

uhm 5 damage.

- The skeleton is looking rough! A few more of those and hes probably going to shatter? He rolled a 16 whats your AC?

15

- You take 8 points of damage.

FUCK IM DOWN GUYS HELP HELP HELP
The companions have backstories, but I wouldn't call them "epic adventures." It's more like they screwed up their lives in various ways and got some powers on the side, but haven't done anything with it to make a mark in the world.

This is their first real adventure in D&D terms. The adventuring is what drives the leveling. I don't have a problem with it personally, but then I've played so many games like this that I don't mind hand-waving some of the setups. I'd rather be adventuring with this group than with a farm boy.
Posted By: Orbax Re: Why do we start out at level 1? [SPOILERS] - 25/10/20 11:57 PM
Originally Posted by Frumpkis
The companions have backstories, but I wouldn't call them "epic adventures." It's more like they screwed up their lives in various ways and got some powers on the side, but haven't done anything with it to make a mark in the world.

This is their first real adventure in D&D terms. The adventuring is what drives the leveling. I don't have a problem with it personally, but then I've played so many games like this that I don't mind hand-waving some of the setups. I'd rather be adventuring with this group than with a farm boy.



Well, Gale was such a prodigy he had sex with Mystra, the goddess of magic and after she ignored him he found a Netherese artifact left over from Karsus' Folly, the only 12th level spell ever cast where Karsus took over her body, the weave undid itself, she committed suicide, and a new goddess was born to take over and repair it. Gale then had this shadow weave chaotic magic from the time of days of the most powerful spells cast and items created and it somehow consumed him when he opened it and now has to feed it powerful artifacts or he thinks that his explosion would wipe out the largest city on the Sword Cost, Waterdeep.
@orbax
If a player presented me that backstory as a GM for a lvl 1 I'd just snicker and tell him to be serious. This is fairly normal and common place for PnP. As far as your second post that is some really nice head canon you have going there.

Game shouldn't start at lvl 1, shouldn't be limited to lvl 10. Balancing high levels in turn based will be a nightmare when they announce BG4.
Posted By: Orbax Re: Why do we start out at level 1? [SPOILERS] - 26/10/20 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
@orbax
As far as your second post that is some really nice head canon you have going there.



Gale tells it all to you smile
As far as I remember he tells you some things that maybe allude to him having a connection to Mystra and being a powerful wizard but doesn't explain too much about how he cocked up and his whole affair with Mystra is all inside his head. It would be a lot worse if he did spell all that out for you.
Posted By: Orbax Re: Why do we start out at level 1? [SPOILERS] - 26/10/20 12:17 AM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
As far as I remember he tells you some things that maybe allude to him having a connection to Mystra and being a powerful wizard but doesn't explain too much about how he cocked up and his whole affair with Mystra is all inside his head. It would be a lot worse if he did spell all that out for you.


I got him to flat out say all of that haha
Wyll mentions that the parasite has curbed his power (implying it's curbed all the companions' power) in a banter with another character (I forget who).

He also mentions there was a time he could take on a (powerful) xxx monster, but now he'd be knocked into another country by (much weaker) yyy monster.
Posted By: Haps Re: Why do we start out at level 1? [SPOILERS] - 26/10/20 01:09 AM
Yeah it's mentioned that the tadpole injection gave everyone a factory reset.

Gale used to be an archmage. Asterion is 200+ years old. Wyll was decent at something, and so on.
The same reason why you have barrels, throwables and ranged enemies spamming them everywhere. They forgot to add bombs and wings to the minotaurs frown
Posted By: Orbax Re: Why do we start out at level 1? [SPOILERS] - 26/10/20 01:21 AM
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
The same reason why you have barrels, throwables and ranged enemies spamming them everywhere.


As soon as JD says something nice about this game, Larian will have created something so perfect it will be considered a divine artifact and the second coming of Christ will be nigh.
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
The same reason why you have barrels, throwables and ranged enemies spamming them everywhere.


As soon as JD says something nice about this game, Larian will have created something so perfect it will be considered a divine artifact and the second coming of Christ will be nigh.


You're kidding? That's the #1 feature that made ppl buy this EA.
I think starting out at level 1 would be alright if not for the fact that the game spans only ten levels. BG3 has a level cap of 10 which seems really dull. That shit was alright back in BG1 where the whole concept of a game like that was an all-new thing, but in this day and age, having the (supposedly) definitive 5e video game end at level 10 is disappointing.
Posted By: Orbax Re: Why do we start out at level 1? [SPOILERS] - 26/10/20 01:31 AM
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
The same reason why you have barrels, throwables and ranged enemies spamming them everywhere.


As soon as JD says something nice about this game, Larian will have created something so perfect it will be considered a divine artifact and the second coming of Christ will be nigh.


You're kidding? That's the #1 feature that made ppl buy this EA.


Im not ready >.< So many loves half loved, so many inventions half invented. Why, working on this blasted time machine set me back 10 years alone!
Posted By: Orbax Re: Why do we start out at level 1? [SPOILERS] - 26/10/20 01:35 AM
Originally Posted by Clawfoot
I think starting out at level 1 would be alright if not for the fact that the game spans only ten levels. BG3 has a level cap of 10 which seems really dull. That shit was alright back in BG1 where the whole concept of a game like that was an all-new thing, but in this day and age, having the (supposedly) definitive 5e video game end at level 10 is disappointing.


Its an odd decision, Id love to hear their thoughts on it. WotC did a survey and pulled data from D&D beyond and stuff and the average player gets to level 6 before making a new one.its like less than 20% of players get beyond level 9. Might be even less than that. Long campaigns are hard to do. I mean *buffs knuckles* I am DMing 3 10+ campaigns spanning years but whatever. NORMAL people dont get to do it often. Getting to 15+ is the frigging DREAM. To have a game that is flat out saying its a solo D&D game, huzzahs for all of the people who cant get group together, and not let you get big is such a bizarre choice to say "this is not only the best way to do it, its the right way to do it."
Originally Posted by Clawfoot
I think starting out at level 1 would be alright if not for the fact that the game spans only ten levels. BG3 has a level cap of 10 which seems really dull. That shit was alright back in BG1 where the whole concept of a game like that was an all-new thing, but in this day and age, having the (supposedly) definitive 5e video game end at level 10 is disappointing.
They seem to backed off on level 10 being the limit. It looks like they'll go a little higher, though we don't know how much.

But I can understand capping at Level 10 in this game, then to 20 in the next game. There's only 20 levels to the game, so it makes sense to spread it out (somewhat) equally.
Normal people don't even play D&D according to casuals. Defeats the point of trying to make a D&D for the normies in the first place but OH WOTC can't say you haven't tried your best dumbing it down till the point of making a soulless, generic and bland experience that everyone can enjoy.
Originally Posted by Clawfoot
I think starting out at level 1 would be alright if not for the fact that the game spans only ten levels. BG3 has a level cap of 10 which seems really dull. That shit was alright back in BG1 where the whole concept of a game like that was an all-new thing, but in this day and age, having the (supposedly) definitive 5e video game end at level 10 is disappointing.


Well that's because in this day an age it's all about making the most "moneys" with the least of invesment, time and effort as possible. Just hope the next BG4 EA is twice as expensive.
Larian already said it will be in the region of lvl12-14, they haven’t quite decided yet.
Just think of it as the tadpole scrambling your brain and temporarily weakening everyone. You start gaining levels quickly anyway.
Being abducted by mind flayers at a low level and thrust into an adventure well beyond their capabilities sort of fits what seems to happen in the prologue. Complaints like this make me think you aren't actually paying attention to events happening in the game. You're not a famous hero. Neither are any of the companions.
So. 2 things.

1. Level 1 adventurers are not ordinary people. In a world where the average stat for a person is a 10-11 me having 16 in probably one or two abilities makes me a pretty extraordinary dude.

Citation from the PHB:

Quote
A score of 10 or 11 is the normal human average, but adventurers and many monsters are a cut above average in most abilities. A score of 18 is the highest that a person usually reaches. Adventurers can have scores as high as 20, and monsters and divine beings can have scores as high as 30.


A 16/17 are "power levels" half of divine beings. So that whole shtick about that level 1 means = weak is just not having any merits.

2. Not every story needs to start in a low stakes environment.
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
The same reason why you have barrels, throwables and ranged enemies spamming them everywhere.


As soon as JD says something nice about this game, Larian will have created something so perfect it will be considered a divine artifact and the second coming of Christ will be nigh.


cheer

On topic though: Wyll and Gale both mention they've been considerably weakened by the whole ordeal. I guess the rationale is the whole gang kinda got an unstandard treatment with the spaceship crash and all.
From the Duke abduction we can probably deduce they don't go around abducting farmers but people of certain talents and/or influence.

Now on a personal note I agree I'd much rather be running around with this lot than a bunch of random farmers/shepherds/miners.
Posted By: Abits Re: Why do we start out at level 1? [SPOILERS] - 26/10/20 09:48 AM
The only companion who really gives the impression of more than level 1 character bis Gale. What else we got? A very young and inexperienced gith girl, a Shar priestess that right now we know nothing about how experienced she is but I think she is much less experienced than she wants us to believe, we have a so called "hero" that his biggest nemesis is a fucking goblin (you can even comment about how lame it is), and a vampire spawn that in theory could be very experienced, but based on what we learned about him he was just a strange kink slave for all the time he was alive. Their life situations are interesting, but none of them seem like very experienced adventures when you stop to think about that
Originally Posted by Clawfoot
I think starting out at level 1 would be alright if not for the fact that the game spans only ten levels. BG3 has a level cap of 10 which seems really dull. That shit was alright back in BG1 where the whole concept of a game like that was an all-new thing, but in this day and age, having the (supposedly) definitive 5e video game end at level 10 is disappointing.

IIRC 5th edition has 'compressed' things quite significantly, so a level 10 character in 2nd edition is actually noteably weaker than a level 10 in 5th edition.
Originally Posted by Thieves Rule
You can't tell me that in the 200 years since Astarion was turned into a vampire that he didn't pick up more than the basics of picking locks.

Even worse is the thought that Gale was wandering the planes but still can't cast more than a couple of level 1 spells.

Astarion was a noble ... he never needed to pick some locks, they always invited him in, because his very presence meant an increase in prestige among the social elite.
And Gale probably was until now focused on magic, that dont involve combat.

There. wink
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Thieves Rule
You can't tell me that in the 200 years since Astarion was turned into a vampire that he didn't pick up more than the basics of picking locks.

Even worse is the thought that Gale was wandering the planes but still can't cast more than a couple of level 1 spells.

Astarion was a noble ... he never needed to pick some locks, they always invited him in, because his very presence meant an increase in prestige among the social elite.
And Gale probably was until now focused on magic, that dont involve combat.

There. wink


Besides what good would lockpicking do to a vampire anyway, no matter the age? "Excuse me I picked your lock, invite me in?"

And imagine the uproar if we had actually gotten the companions with higher levels - just look at all the threads dedicated to them being "incorrectly specced" at level 1
In general I feel like there was a real disconnection between the mechanics side of the game and the story side of the game.

For example, the realization that Shadowheart is a Priestess of Shar - and that Wyll is a Warlock - is supposed to be a big deal for the PC. But as the player, we can see that the second they join.
I don't understand the aim of this post honestly. A background story and level 1 is what you get when you start a D&D campaign, even if you play an elf who's 200 years old. I don't see the point in arguing about this at all.
Originally Posted by Azarielle
What good would lockpicking do to a vampire anyway, no matter the age? "Excuse me I picked your lock, invite me in?"

That... that is an excellent point which I had completely overlooked.
Originally Posted by Nyanko
I don't understand the aim of this post honestly. A background story and level 1 is what you get when you start a D&D campaign, even if you play an elf who's 200 years old. I don't see the point in arguing about this at all.

There are players who feel cheated if they have to start at Level 1 (actual or the equivalent on other games), in PnP and CRPGs. Some player just want to dive straight in a 'Uber-Mega Level' without having to go through all the tedium of building up to it.

It's a different style of gaming, but one I am glad BG3 is not all about. I enjoy the story of earning those XP and levels, of facing ever-more difficult tasks and stronger enemies. For me, starting at higher levels is as unsatisfying as using a cheat God-Mode to power through the game to the end. I have, after all, invested money for a game. I want playing that to the conclusion to be a long and leisurely experience.

Each to their own, but I'll stick with the slow route.
Originally Posted by Thieves Rule
This isn't your typical "I start out as a farmer and take up adventuring as a profession after the dragon ate my flock" sort of story. All of the pre-rolled characters have a decent backstory that seems to indicate that they've been doing this a while. You can't tell me that in the 200 years since Astarion was turned into a vampire that he didn't pick up more than the basics of picking locks. Even worse is the thought that Gale was wandering the planes but still can't cast more than a couple of level 1 spells.

Maybe start out at level 5 or something like that. Makes it a bit more plausible unless later on all the characters say that the tadpole must have chewed on the part of the brain that contains all their previous experience.

I'm enjoying the various backstories the characters have and their different personalities, it's just this part of the equation is leaving me scratch my head.


I have to make Will, Shadowheart, Laez'el, spill the beans about their past but if Gale is an example of what happened they all didi something that brought them back to level 1. The archmage messed up with Mystra ending up killing her and with the need of powerful artifacts to avoid him to explode and erase half of the map with him and unable to use magic as he was used to.

Furthermore the really big and epic enemies can not be killed (like the demon lord in the flying squid), and the mobs in the area are at max level 4.

For our character, well the mindflyers kidnapped pratically any sentient living being they could (ehy, they implated a tadpole in a Gnoll!), so they toke a mr/mrs/miss nobody without any exceptional backstory.
Posted By: Abits Re: Why do we start out at level 1? [SPOILERS] - 26/10/20 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by Bufotenina
Originally Posted by Thieves Rule
This isn't your typical "I start out as a farmer and take up adventuring as a profession after the dragon ate my flock" sort of story. All of the pre-rolled characters have a decent backstory that seems to indicate that they've been doing this a while. You can't tell me that in the 200 years since Astarion was turned into a vampire that he didn't pick up more than the basics of picking locks. Even worse is the thought that Gale was wandering the planes but still can't cast more than a couple of level 1 spells.

Maybe start out at level 5 or something like that. Makes it a bit more plausible unless later on all the characters say that the tadpole must have chewed on the part of the brain that contains all their previous experience.

I'm enjoying the various backstories the characters have and their different personalities, it's just this part of the equation is leaving me scratch my head.


I have to make Will, Shadowheart, Laez'el, spill the beans about their past but if Gale is an example of what happened they all didi something that brought them back to level 1. The archmage messed up with Mystra ending up killing her and with the need of powerful artifacts to avoid him to explode and erase half of the map with him and unable to use magic as he was used to.

Furthermore the really big and epic enemies can not be killed (like the demon lord in the flying squid), and the mobs in the area are at max level 4.

For our character, well the mindflyers kidnapped pratically any sentient living being they could (ehy, they implated a tadpole in a Gnoll!), so they toke a mr/mrs/miss nobody without any exceptional backstory.

Like I said (and for some reason everyone ignored it), what makes you think that any of them (aside from Gale perhaps) deserves more than level 1?
I just want to add that level caps are dumb and I look forward to the mod that will fix that (I know there is a mod for it now in EA, but I mean to go beyond lv 10 when the game is released)
Originally Posted by slothgodfather
I just want to add that level caps are dumb and I look forward to the mod that will fix that (I know there is a mod for it now in EA, but I mean to go beyond lv 10 when the game is released)


Level caps are needed in games because the challenge for each level dinged has to be programmed. You don't have a human DM who can respond in a creative way to an arbitrary number of levels.

Every time the party levels up, the game needs to offer an appropriate challenge that isn't either too easy or too hard. It involves gating off higher level enemies with both story triggers and map design, so the player doesn't get whomped too early. Ten levels in a D&D game is already a lot of work to program this way. Asking for higher levels is basically asking for a larger game with more time put into it, and a further release date. Instead, we're getting a decent-sized game with 10-ish levels and possibly a DLC.

A mod that increases the level cap for the final game isn't going to give you the additional content you'd actually need to make that level challenging and worthwhile. I don't see the point, unless the goal is just to continually level up and roflstomp the existing game content because you can't be touched.
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Bufotenina
Originally Posted by Thieves Rule
This isn't your typical "I start out as a farmer and take up adventuring as a profession after the dragon ate my flock" sort of story. All of the pre-rolled characters have a decent backstory that seems to indicate that they've been doing this a while. You can't tell me that in the 200 years since Astarion was turned into a vampire that he didn't pick up more than the basics of picking locks. Even worse is the thought that Gale was wandering the planes but still can't cast more than a couple of level 1 spells.

Maybe start out at level 5 or something like that. Makes it a bit more plausible unless later on all the characters say that the tadpole must have chewed on the part of the brain that contains all their previous experience.

I'm enjoying the various backstories the characters have and their different personalities, it's just this part of the equation is leaving me scratch my head.


I have to make Will, Shadowheart, Laez'el, spill the beans about their past but if Gale is an example of what happened they all didi something that brought them back to level 1. The archmage messed up with Mystra ending up killing her and with the need of powerful artifacts to avoid him to explode and erase half of the map with him and unable to use magic as he was used to.

Furthermore the really big and epic enemies can not be killed (like the demon lord in the flying squid), and the mobs in the area are at max level 4.

For our character, well the mindflyers kidnapped pratically any sentient living being they could (ehy, they implated a tadpole in a Gnoll!), so they toke a mr/mrs/miss nobody without any exceptional backstory.

Like I said (and for some reason everyone ignored it), what makes you think that any of them (aside from Gale perhaps) deserves more than level 1?


To me, Gale and Astarion are the two that are out of place. Gale because if he can survive wandering the planes looking for forbidden magic and Astarion because he'd have to get some experience doing something for 200 years as a vampire or else he'd starve to death.

Wyll's boasting about his abilities I can chalk up to the PnP background example given before. Shadowheart and Laez'el don't offer up enough of their background (at least in any of my interactions with them yet) to form an opinion.

If they want to chalk this up to the tadpole messing with their heads, then a simple solution is to have the main character complain about missing memories or something like that when they first wake up on the mind flayer ship. I'm ok with that. What bugged me was it wasn't that obvious in the dialogs I remember having that said each of them was missing something from their previous life.


Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Frumpkis
The companions have backstories, but I wouldn't call them "epic adventures." It's more like they screwed up their lives in various ways and got some powers on the side, but haven't done anything with it to make a mark in the world.

This is their first real adventure in D&D terms. The adventuring is what drives the leveling. I don't have a problem with it personally, but then I've played so many games like this that I don't mind hand-waving some of the setups. I'd rather be adventuring with this group than with a farm boy.



Well, Gale was such a prodigy he had sex with Mystra, the goddess of magic and after she ignored him he found a Netherese artifact left over from Karsus' Folly, the only 12th level spell ever cast where Karsus took over her body, the weave undid itself, she committed suicide, and a new goddess was born to take over and repair it. Gale then had this shadow weave chaotic magic from the time of days of the most powerful spells cast and items created and it somehow consumed him when he opened it and now has to feed it powerful artifacts or he thinks that his explosion would wipe out the largest city on the Sword Cost, Waterdeep.



Gale kept saying that when he lost the favour of Mystra his magic suffered, then he went out and just bought that book with it's bubble dimension before having the magic claw his way into him. I think we're supposed to believe that losing the (raunchy) favour of Mystra AND having a weave eating magical parasite in him made him weak as a newborn kitten. So I will raise my eyebrow and play along with that.

Otherwise level 1 seems fairly appropriate for the rest:
We have a somewhat lazy vampire who sounds like he did housework (or also sex work, who knows).
A folk hero that did some stuff we've apparently heard of but aren't super impressed by. Also he has a demon patron that could've given him an extra little boost to put him in the right circles if it was something impressive.
A Shar cleric that's core competency is being surly and acting like we should be surprised she worships Shar.
A Githyanki that spends all her time talking about how she's going to prove herself and how she followed protocol like it's her first day on the job.

Wait wait wait, You mean this game isn’t going to have New Game+ mode? If a game doesn’t have 100 levels why even bother. When are they adding the loot boxes? I’m bored of looking at the same vendor trash. When can I bind fire ball to mousebutton2? I need bigger damage numbers and why are all the monsters talking so much, just die already no one cares.
It is worth remembering that having a level in a class is actually a big deal in and of itself in DnD. The vast majority of people in the world never achieve this. They are functionally level 0 with 10s in every stat while we're rocking 12s and 16s. A person with 16 Intelligence is nearly a genius in their own right. A person with 16 strength is like a professional athlete in peak physical condition.


Level 1 isn't a novice. It is someone who has enough competence in their art they can reasonably be expected to take on small groups of goblins, kobolds, and bandits on their own. Something normal people wouldn't be capable of.
Larian doesn't really care about consistency.
They took what they find cool everywhere in D&D and the FR, change,mix them and add their own touche everywhere and... that's BG3.

This game is absolutely inconsistent in regards of the FR and D&D...
If you're a random low level from the surface that jump in a hole and fight with creatures in the underdark... You die. End.
Drizzt almost die there many times even if he's a powerfull native that had years of rude training in Menzoberranzan (and he didn't encounter overboosted minotaurs).

And yes those companions story...
They all lived totally WTF things but yea... Still level 1...

But don't worry, "that's the tadpole" grin

And I don't remember that you can dip your weapon in fire to have a +1D4 fire damage weapon in the FR, but that's another point.
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Bufotenina
Originally Posted by Thieves Rule
This isn't your typical "I start out as a farmer and take up adventuring as a profession after the dragon ate my flock" sort of story. All of the pre-rolled characters have a decent backstory that seems to indicate that they've been doing this a while. You can't tell me that in the 200 years since Astarion was turned into a vampire that he didn't pick up more than the basics of picking locks. Even worse is the thought that Gale was wandering the planes but still can't cast more than a couple of level 1 spells.

Maybe start out at level 5 or something like that. Makes it a bit more plausible unless later on all the characters say that the tadpole must have chewed on the part of the brain that contains all their previous experience.

I'm enjoying the various backstories the characters have and their different personalities, it's just this part of the equation is leaving me scratch my head.


I have to make Will, Shadowheart, Laez'el, spill the beans about their past but if Gale is an example of what happened they all didi something that brought them back to level 1. The archmage messed up with Mystra ending up killing her and with the need of powerful artifacts to avoid him to explode and erase half of the map with him and unable to use magic as he was used to.

Furthermore the really big and epic enemies can not be killed (like the demon lord in the flying squid), and the mobs in the area are at max level 4.

For our character, well the mindflyers kidnapped pratically any sentient living being they could (ehy, they implated a tadpole in a Gnoll!), so they toke a mr/mrs/miss nobody without any exceptional backstory.

Like I said (and for some reason everyone ignored it), what makes you think that any of them (aside from Gale perhaps) deserves more than level 1?


Who are you refering to? O.o Mine was an answer to really clear and targeted question. The original post wasn't about the characters deserving to be more than level 1 but how lame it was that they start at such low level without any given reason.

What can I say, when I answer a question I usually stay on topic and I not used to make another question to defuse the argument brought by the one maing the question.

Said that, lets focus on you off topic answer:

1) Gale was an archmage able to evoke the personification of magic herself, pretty sure is quite an accomplisment, something no level one can even dream off.

2) Will, he has created a militar force, and his name is known all around, and when he shows up he is frigging powerful compared to other npcs and the playing party (indeed he is the one character that seriously seems nerfed when joins the party);

3) Astarion is an elf turned vampire with two hundred years of experience, one can assume he has trained, unless Cazador wanted him just as a pet so didn't allow the pale elf to train his abilities nor those tied to the fact that he is a vampire, nor those tied to his class, I am pretty sure Astarion wasn't even a rogue before he was kidnapped by the mindfliers (that would easily explain why he is a level 1);

4) Laez'el is a trained warrior in a very competitive race where strenght is highly valued indeed the underlings of her fellow dragon raider are all above level one, so it's just normal to think she is of a higher level;

5) Shadowheart was sent to a very difficult mission by her church, pretty sure they won't give such a delicate quest to a low level adept.
Yes, all the companions we meet should be level 10. But does the game need it? Is there a point in screwing the game mechanics derived from D&D just to satisfy the thrive for authenticity and logic of some players?
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Yes, all the companions we meet should be level 10. But does the game need it? Is there a point in screwing the game mechanics derived from D&D just to satisfy the thrive for authenticity and logic of some players?


Again, it's all about consistency.
Maybe you don't really care... And I have to admit that in a game like DoS it's not a problem to me... But BG3 is not sell as a DoS game.

I guess when you write stories from nothing, you can easily choose to be consistent to the rules/the lore of the world in which your stories take place... Or you can choose something else. Whatever your choices, your stories can be interresting and engaging.
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Yes, all the companions we meet should be level 10. But does the game need it? Is there a point in screwing the game mechanics derived from D&D just to satisfy the thrive for authenticity and logic of some players?


Again, it's all about consistency.
Maybe you don't really care... And I have to admit that in a game like DoS it's not a problem to me... But BG3 is not sell as a DoS game.


What consistency are you talking about? So playing a level 1 high elf wizard who's 200 years old already with a big background story is fine in D&D but it's not fine in BG3? How does it work exactly?

Maybe you don't know what I am talking about. Have you played any pnp D&D?
Posted By: Ixal Re: Why do we start out at level 1? [SPOILERS] - 27/10/20 01:30 PM
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Yes, all the companions we meet should be level 10.


This, especially Gale.
Thing is, Larian can't write "normal" NPCs. They all have to be extra special with some quirk and such, so their backstory never matches the mechanics. Same happened in D:OS2 with their origin characters where everyone except Lohse would have been higher level already.
I wish the characters backstory would be something like they’ve got lv drained by the tadpole.
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Yes, all the companions we meet should be level 10. But does the game need it? Is there a point in screwing the game mechanics derived from D&D just to satisfy the thrive for authenticity and logic of some players?


Again, it's all about consistency.
Maybe you don't really care... And I have to admit that in a game like DoS it's not a problem to me... But BG3 is not sell as a DoS game.


What consistency are you talking about? So playing a level 1 high elf wizard who's 200 years old already with a big background story is fine in D&D but it's not fine in BG3? How does it work exactly?

Maybe you don't know what I am talking about. Have you played any pnp D&D?


Oh ok, so BG3 is just designed to be a random custom campaign instead of a consistent story in the FR. That explain so many things.....
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Argonaut
As far as I remember he tells you some things that maybe allude to him having a connection to Mystra and being a powerful wizard but doesn't explain too much about how he cocked up and his whole affair with Mystra is all inside his head. It would be a lot worse if he did spell all that out for you.


I got him to flat out say all of that haha

Can you screencap it or make a video please?

For people talking about power scaling and ability stats I'm not surprised none of you brought up the Tiers of Play.

Originally Posted by 5e D&D Players Handbook Pg 12 "Tiers of Play"

In the first tier (levels 1-4), characters are effectively apprentice adventurerers. The threats they face are relatively minor, usually posing a danger to local farmsteads or villages.
In the second tier (levels5-10), characters come into their own. These characters have become important, facing dangers that threaten cities and kingdoms.
In the third tier (levels 11-16), characters have reached a level of power that sets them high above the ordinary populace and makes them special even among adventurers.
At the fourth tier (levels 17-20), characters achieve the pinnacle of their class features, becoming heroic archetypes in their own right. The fate of the world of even the fundamental order of the multiverse might hang in the balance during their adventure


5e outlines how powerful you are at every stage, and even with pumped up stats you're nothing special in the first tier. City guardmens or army soldiers and a lot of bandits are stronger than you. We are in tier 4 play as tier 1 characters.
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Argonaut
As far as I remember he tells you some things that maybe allude to him having a connection to Mystra and being a powerful wizard but doesn't explain too much about how he cocked up and his whole affair with Mystra is all inside his head. It would be a lot worse if he did spell all that out for you.


I got him to flat out say all of that haha

Can you screencap it or make a video please?






Like more than half of the companion' stuff it's easy to miss.
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Argonaut
As far as I remember he tells you some things that maybe allude to him having a connection to Mystra and being a powerful wizard but doesn't explain too much about how he cocked up and his whole affair with Mystra is all inside his head. It would be a lot worse if he did spell all that out for you.


I got him to flat out say all of that haha

Can you screencap it or make a video please?






Like more than half of the companion' stuff it's easy to miss.

Here is the OP statement.

Quote
Well, Gale was such a prodigy he had sex with Mystra, the goddess of magic and after she ignored him he found a Netherese artifact left over from Karsus' Folly, the only 12th level spell ever cast where Karsus took over her body, the weave undid itself, she committed suicide, and a new goddess was born to take over and repair it. Gale then had this shadow weave chaotic magic from the time of days of the most powerful spells cast and items created and it somehow consumed him when he opened it and now has to feed it powerful artifacts or he thinks that his explosion would wipe out the largest city on the Sword Cost, Waterdeep.

He didn't flat out say any of that shit. He said he was powerful and he lost his power because he tried to gain mystras favor(which is a no no to mystra). Sex with mystra is in his head, she didn't ignore him so much as he wanted her favor etc.
Posted By: Orbax Re: Why do we start out at level 1? [SPOILERS] - 27/10/20 03:31 PM
Originally Posted by Argonaut


He didn't flat out say any of that shit. He said he was powerful and he lost his power because he tried to gain mystras favor(which is a no no to mystra). Sex with mystra is in his head, she didn't ignore him so much as he wanted her favor etc.



He did. You saying it was in his head means he told you about it. You are choosing to not believe what he says. And in 6 playthroughs he said all that ONCE. You have a false assumption that you have had every possible conversation with him. Your experience is not other people's. If you are this vehement about it, you obviously didnt see the text I did. You're just choosing to not believe something because you personally haven't seen it. Hubris.
@Orbax
Video or Screencaps please. What he says in the video covers what I said but not what you said. Also when I said its in his head I meant from the tadpole or delusions, as in it didn't actually happen. You present it as though its fact that happened.

Citation. Needed.
Posted By: Orbax Re: Why do we start out at level 1? [SPOILERS] - 27/10/20 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
@Orbax
Video or Screencaps please. What he says in the video covers what I said but not what you said. Also when I said its in his head I meant from the tadpole or delusions, as in it didn't actually happen. You present it as though its fact that happened.

Citation. Needed.


You just made me realize how little I care about you believing me or not. Pretend this is a victory when I am not going to go back and restart a game specifically to get to a point in a conversation so I can screen cap it to "Argonaut" and say "see see!". Enjoy your version of the game.
@Orbax
Why not just go find it on you tube in 5 seconds? Nice head cannon mate.
Originally Posted by Argonaut
@Orbax
Video or Screencaps please. What he says in the video covers what I said but not what you said. Also when I said its in his head I meant from the tadpole or delusions, as in it didn't actually happen. You present it as though its fact that happened.

Citation. Needed.


Originally Posted by Argonaut
@Orbax
Video or Screencaps please. What he says in the video covers what I said but not what you said. Also when I said its in his head I meant from the tadpole or delusions, as in it didn't actually happen. You present it as though its fact that happened.

Citation. Needed.

Not sure if this will help or hurt, but I can confirm that Gale says all of these things. He romanced Mystra. Lost favor. Found that artefact and tried to use it to give Mystra back some of her lost power and win back her favor. It backfired and now he has a magic-eating nuke inside of him that he has to keep feeding or else it will explode.

Edit: or see Rhobar121's link above
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Yes, all the companions we meet should be level 10.


Only if you believe the stories they're telling you. smile

Some of it could be exaggeration revealed later, or just accepted on faith but we don't really know if all those stories are true. All we have is their word for it. And we already know some of them, or all of them, are concealing things from the player character.
Not counting Wyll and Gale (at least the Gale is explained) no other character is overly exaggerated.
-> We know practically nothing about Shadowheart. Before kidnapping, she might as well have been a peasant or an avatar of god (in terms of power)
-> Lae'zel looks like a standard young fighter trying to prove his skills. She even mentions that she was never on the astral plane and hopes to become her home soon.
-> Before the kidnapping, Astarion probably never fought (or at least didn't have much of a chance). He may have been a slave, but his master was mighty.
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Argonaut
@Orbax
Video or Screencaps please. What he says in the video covers what I said but not what you said. Also when I said its in his head I meant from the tadpole or delusions, as in it didn't actually happen. You present it as though its fact that happened.

Citation. Needed.




God thank you, why was that so hard.

Still his head cannon FYI as it's all his word/delusion. I'd say I really hope they don't make that cannon for the several degrees where it breaks the source but I wouldn't be surprised if it is.
Laezel and Shadowheart definitely seem more like rookies. Laezel was raised in a creche but has not been to the Astral Plane (she will tell this to Gale as you explore the world). The Githyanki have to take part in a successful illithid hunt before they can venture to Tunarath. I think she is also terribly unreliable, not because she is a liar, but because the Githyanki are all indoctrinated in the Cult of Personality that is Vlaakith. Shadowheart is mysterious, but strikes me as someone that is not terribly experienced in the world.

Gale has had his power stripped from him (maybe from the tadpole, maybe because of losing the favor of the goddess of magic or absorbing the pocket of the astral into himself).

Wyll may or may not be lying - I can't tell, he will talk about what he was capable of before the mind flayers took him. But he could be lying/exaggerating. I tend to think that it's a combination of both.

Astarion is a vampire spawn. Spawn are slaves to true vampires and have little free will - they are also depicted as fairly uniform in ability. A farmer or a child turned into a vampire spawn is just as dangerous as a wizard or an experienced knight or something. They lose their identity and become vampiric slaves. Astarion is free for the first time in two centuries - I think him being a rogue is a representation of his talents derived from being a spawn. If he was a typical vampire spawn he would be; 1) destroyed immediately by all the sunlight; 2) capable of regeneration; and 3) much, much more powerful than he is. I single Vampire Spawn would tear through a level 1 adventuring party, so it is again clear that the tadpole has changed him substantially.
Posted By: Orbax Re: Why do we start out at level 1? [SPOILERS] - 27/10/20 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Argonaut
@Orbax
Video or Screencaps please. What he says in the video covers what I said but not what you said. Also when I said its in his head I meant from the tadpole or delusions, as in it didn't actually happen. You present it as though its fact that happened.

Citation. Needed.




God thank you, why was that so hard.

Still his head cannon FYI as it's all his word/delusion. I'd say I really hope they don't make that cannon for the several degrees where it breaks the source but I wouldn't be surprised if it is.


Because im not going to do work for you. If you care, YOU go look it up. Entitled little bastard aren't you.
@Orbax
Because you made a claim that wasn't supported by fact. Burden of evidence is on you. Someone did your job for you FYI and it's still just his word / delusion.
Posted By: Abits Re: Why do we start out at level 1? [SPOILERS] - 27/10/20 04:27 PM
Bullshit. If you would like some elaboration just say so
Level 1 adventurers in 5e are not common farmers or common soldiers. There is an assumption that PCs, or individual with fully fleshed out design, are exceptional individuals through talent, experience, or both. If you look at the NPC stat blocks available, most of the closest equivalents to a PC class aren't as effective. A knight is sort of a lesser paladin and a berserker is sort of a lesser barbarian.

That said, notice that some of the people stuck on that nautaloid were, indeed, farmers, bakers, students, and the like. So even if level 1 in 5e wasn't beyond the average person, there are several commoners there that are on the ship, so it makes sense someone lower level would be there.

Also, it seems Gale's story is he used to be much stronger and was smashed down to lower level. Karlach seems to have a similar situation. As much as I don't miss Level Drain as a mechanic....at all....the backstory of "I once was stronger than I am now" works perfectly well as an intro to a new campaign and character.

Having a video game start from higher level is tempting but I don't think it would be the best option in the long run. Among other things, some people don't like to just jump to high level and design the higher level character. They like to tweak the build here and there as they level to make sure there are no holes.

I would say that this "drop them in the deep end" wouldn't be a great tabletop design but Out of the Abyss exists...so there's that.
Posted By: Orbax Re: Why do we start out at level 1? [SPOILERS] - 27/10/20 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Level 1 adventurers in 5e are not common farmers or common soldiers. There is an assumption that PCs, or individual with fully fleshed out design, are exceptional individuals through talent, experience, or both. If you look at the NPC stat blocks available, most of the closest equivalents to a PC class aren't as effective. A knight is sort of a lesser paladin and a berserker is sort of a lesser barbarian.

That said, notice that some of the people stuck on that nautaloid were, indeed, farmers, bakers, students, and the like. So even if level 1 in 5e wasn't beyond the average person, there are several commoners there that are on the ship, so it makes sense someone lower level would be there.

Also, it seems Gale's story is he used to be much stronger and was smashed down to lower level. Karlach seems to have a similar situation. As much as I don't miss Level Drain as a mechanic....at all....the backstory of "I once was stronger than I am now" works perfectly well as an intro to a new campaign and character.

Having a video game start from higher level is tempting but I don't think it would be the best option in the long run. Among other things, some people don't like to just jump to high level and design the higher level character. They like to tweak the build here and there as they level to make sure there are no holes.

I would say that this "drop them in the deep end" wouldn't be a great tabletop design but Out of the Abyss exists...so there's that.


Level drain can be great. I had 2 players that were young silver dragons. They polymorphed into humans to lead a raid against a cult and their humans were all wiped out while they escaped. They tried shifting back and couldn't. Bahamut trapped them in their forms until they learned what it was like for them and maybe they'd be more careful with their lives the next time they meddled in their affairs. They've gotten moments where they got to transform during intense moments and the end of their arc will be the ability to transform again (they're druids). It has been incredible and there are some really fun mechanics with it. It can just be hard to do if the mechanic you are unlocking is Power Word Kill or something because at that point all you are mechanically doing is getting high level again and feeling weak until then. I don't like that way of doing it. Gale doin something foolish in his youth to "Notice me, Senpai" Mystra even though he was wildly out of his depth, regardless of aptitude, would be a more appropriate arc to pursue. Its always just a bit off for some reason with their stories haha.
Originally Posted by Orbax


Level drain can be great. I had 2 players that were young silver dragons. They polymorphed into humans to lead a raid against a cult and their humans were all wiped out while they escaped. They tried shifting back and couldn't. Bahamut trapped them in their forms until they learned what it was like for them and maybe they'd be more careful with their lives the next time they meddled in their affairs. They've gotten moments where they got to transform during intense moments and the end of their arc will be the ability to transform again (they're druids). It has been incredible and there are some really fun mechanics with it. It can just be hard to do if the mechanic you are unlocking is Power Word Kill or something because at that point all you are mechanically doing is getting high level again and feeling weak until then. I don't like that way of doing it. Gale doin something foolish in his youth to "Notice me, Senpai" Mystra even though he was wildly out of his depth, regardless of aptitude, would be a more appropriate arc to pursue. Its always just a bit off for some reason with their stories haha.


I hace a concept for a draconic sorcerer who is actually a young black dragon stuck in a form somewhat close to a drow (or wood elf fluffed as drow). Her dragon form is heavily damaged and scarred and it involves great pain for her to enter it. (as a hatchling she'd been tortured by goblins and accidentally saved by adventurers.) Some of her spells represent briefly returning to draconic form. Like polymorph to a T-Rex would be T-Rex stats but fluffed as a dragon with damaged wings and the mental stat drop due to the pain she'd be in.

She was a bit on the shy and hesitant side. Got the idea from a story a while back. I figured if she were to get to Epic Levels, some of the Epic Boons would be things like "Ageless" and her 9th spell would be Shapechange.
Posted By: Orbax Re: Why do we start out at level 1? [SPOILERS] - 27/10/20 06:39 PM
I gave one the ability to act is if they had the fly spell on them for 1 minutes 1/x day, could use a breath weapon 1/x a day, 15' cone 2d6 damage 1/2 on save stuff like that. You can thread in abilities without actually needing to change. Called it the blessing of Bahamut and was DM booned when they made choices in line with what Bahamut asked for them that required sacrifice on their part. I could totally take your idea and do tons with it. They are doing it with the illithid powers, there is not real reason to not unlock positive boons if they are doing the drain mechanic. Glimpses into the future keep the carrot on the stick for motivating people to behave a certain way. Want more illithid powers? Abuse the power. Want to unlock better skills for Gale? Give him more magic. Gith chick? Have options to let her battle one on one or something, who knows. But I think D&D needs to use Chechov's Gun - if its going to be mentioned or in there, it needs to be used.
To be honest, most adventurs start ouf at lvl 1 unless youve got a group of experiences players who moan about that fact. Then you generally starta few lvls higher if the DM is willing to meet them halfway.

But as others said its kinda plot related, the parasite reset everyone to a lower lvl essentially. That said compelte the tutorial and kill the 3 intellect devourers and you are lvl 2 so its not like you are lvl 1 for very long
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