Larian Studios
So far, going by the recent patch seems they are more worried about petting the dog and correcting cinematics and visual stuff.

There has been no mention of them actually trying to get the rules right, given that it's a D&D 5E and there are many mistakes (ie: mages learning cleric spells from scrolls, bonus action jumping to disengage + all the stuff in this forum.....).

I just finished Solasta EA and I'm surprised at how many things they got right for a 16-man team! I mean, I can even use the dodge action, reaction when something attacks me or even counterspell, ready actions....all the basics mostly works fine too.

So how come many things be done right by a much smaller team? But not by Larian.

I don't really know if Larian is listening.

What do you think?
I'm also quite worried, they seem to think 75% took the good path because they want to play a good character. I can say that I saved the thieflings in the good path the first playthrough because I wasn't given a decent motivation to go help the goblins. Hell I didnt even know about an alternative until I saw the forums about Minthara. And there are many threads on this with the same problem. If you help the evil side you then get shafted by the game over and over. How Larian does not realize this after all the feedback threads they've gotten on the broken evil path is beyond me.
Let me use copy paste because I’ve said that this earlier

I’m using this argument for a while regarding what’s the Larian counterpart for the community feedback.

-DOS2 “we’ve removed weapon durability”. Yes, that’s it. That’s all you’ll get.

And after 3 years after full release Larian will incorporate QoL mods in their system that was created by the community as well.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m also suggesting many things to the game and so on. But I’m not expecting to have this problem solved &/or to have my opinions implemented.

The point of feedback in EA is not supposed to be “hey customer, let’s work together and develop the game”. It’s more like: “I have a project, here’s my concept, could you please be so kind and increase my cashflow?”
There are already several threads discussing Larians silence and whether or not we players should have more patience regarding updates. Sadly I haven't learned how to link threads yet.
Yeah, this update pissed me off a bit.
Not for the lack of big changes in the patch (I already said more than once that minor hotfixes are all I'm expecting on the long term) but because the official post that accompanied the patch spent most of its length throwing useless factoids at us without even PRETENDING to acknowledge (let alone address) the most recurring points of criticism.
I miss Paradox style Dev Diaries.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Yeah, this update pissed me off a bit.
Not for the lack of big changes in the patch (I already said more than once that minor hotfixes are all I'm expecting on the long term) but because the official post that accompanied the patch spent most of its length throwing useless factoids at us without even PRETENDING to acknowledge (let alone address) the most recurring points of criticism.

I agree that I think they should've at least commented on gameplay mechanics since it's been such a hot topic, especially the 5e and homebrew stuff. Something like "Our team is experimenting with changes to gameplay mechanics based on feedback and will get back to you later on" would have sufficed. Like I saw someone on Reddit comment, they're most likely different teams working on cinematics, bugs, what we got, compared to gameplay related stuff, which might just not be ready by now. After all, there is a lot of feedback and data to go through. But a comment on the topic would have been nice
I mean, I'm happy for the patch and what it fixes. I would like to have a Larian guy or gal saying "we are currently discussing the gameplay feedbacks" tho.
You don't need a player base giving you feedback on crashes and screwed cinematics, a simple AI could do that work. You need a player base to collect feedbacks on game mechanics and balance of the game and there is still silence on the matters from the studio.
Of course they aren't.

They didn't listen during DivOS development and they didn't listen during DivOS2 development. This is the age of social media and they could release a statement that would placate everyone within a few seconds. Most companies have PR specifically to do this and are still duplicitous. They know this will sell like DivOS and DivOS2 and they've already cashed in on BG3 pretty hard with a legal caveat in case they decide to never finish it.
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
I'm also quite worried, they seem to think 75% took the good path because they want to play a good character. I can say that I saved the thieflings in the good path the first playthrough because I wasn't given a decent motivation to go help the goblins. Hell I didnt even know about an alternative until I saw the forums about Minthara. And there are many threads on this with the same problem. If you help the evil side you then get shafted by the game over and over. How Larian does not realize this after all the feedback threads they've gotten on the broken evil path is beyond me.


Maybe I'm being naive but I hope Larian is just fooling around with this update and is working on making these changes behind the scenes. They still have 18 months to do it. I have however heard a lot of bad things about the DOS2 EA where they hardly changed anything about the story, so if nothing regarding that is announced fairly soon I will have to hop on the hate bandwagon.
@Vhaldez

I backed DivOS and DivOS2. They doubled back on promises that where bought and paid for and ignored community feedback even by people who had paid a premium for that privilege. It wasn't just DivOS2 EA. I genuinely do not understand how people can still defend Larian in this day and age.
Originally Posted by Argonaut
@Vhaldez

I backed DivOS and DivOS2. They doubled back on promises that where bought and paid for and ignored community feedback even by people who had paid a premium for that privilege. It wasn't just DivOS2 EA. I genuinely do not understand how people can still defend Larian in this day and age.


Damn. I didn't know about this. I thought EA was all about hearing feedback. Oh well.

I just want little fixes or even a false promise like "we're listening to feedback about gameplay, etc...".

LIE TO ME LARIAN lol
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
I'm also quite worried, they seem to think 75% took the good path because they want to play a good character. I can say that I saved the thieflings in the good path the first playthrough because I wasn't given a decent motivation to go help the goblins. Hell I didnt even know about an alternative until I saw the forums about Minthara. And there are many threads on this with the same problem. If you help the evil side you then get shafted by the game over and over. How Larian does not realize this after all the feedback threads they've gotten on the broken evil path is beyond me.


The only problem are people putting a morality value on the consequences instead of on the decisions/motivations of the characters. That's valid for posters and some people at Larian. It's not just about that quest. The companion's alignment threads are full of people arguing X or Y are good because they like pets. Go check the D&D alignment description, none of them says you can't like pets if evil or that good have to like pets.

Stealing isn't evil only when you get caught. It's always bad.
Saving people because you wanted to get revenge on someone holding them captive isn't you being a goody-two-shoes.
Killing the 3 leaders because Haslin won't help you otherwise and he looks like the best healer option isn't you going out of your way to save the Tieflings and play the hero.

I suspect most people have never seen the Raid/Defend the Grove, as the game set you on the "kill the 3 leaders" path from the start. I'm even surprised that they call the Defend the Grove the good path when you have to betray the trust of both the Tielfings and Minthara to get there. You're character is a selfserving asshole on that path.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Yeah, this update pissed me off a bit.
Not for the lack of big changes in the patch (I already said more than once that minor hotfixes are all I'm expecting on the long term) but because the official post that accompanied the patch spent most of its length throwing useless factoids at us without even PRETENDING to acknowledge (let alone address) the most recurring points of criticism.

I think the problem is not that larian doesn't address anything, is that it seems like they're addressing very specific things - the data they get from our playthroughs. It's the second or third time since the release of the EA that all Larian is talking about is data they collected from people playing the game. nothing about comments from the community. like we are some kind of lab rats in their experiment lol
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Tuco
Yeah, this update pissed me off a bit.
Not for the lack of big changes in the patch (I already said more than once that minor hotfixes are all I'm expecting on the long term) but because the official post that accompanied the patch spent most of its length throwing useless factoids at us without even PRETENDING to acknowledge (let alone address) the most recurring points of criticism.

I think the problem is not that larian doesn't address anything, is that it seems like they're addressing very specific things - the data they get from our playthroughs. It's the second or third time since the release of the EA that all Larian is talking about is data they collected from people playing the game. nothing about comments from the community. like we are some kind of lab rats in their experiment lol


Wait, but did you know 30% of players walked west instead of east and 50% attacked Astarion instead of recruiting him. Oh, but wait, 80% decided to use speak with the dead with the dude that's just lying there. Also, 70% don't give a shit about these facts, but we do!
Originally Posted by Tuco
Yeah, this update pissed me off a bit.
Not for the lack of big changes in the patch (I already said more than once that minor hotfixes are all I'm expecting on the long term) but because the official post that accompanied the patch spent most of its length throwing useless factoids at us without even PRETENDING to acknowledge (let alone address) the most recurring points of criticism.


You know aside from a few people this place is nearly an echo chamber and the population is quite small; you have the same 5-6 retards bitching about 5e not being RAW, you have a bunch of people requesting for X or Y class, a bunch of bugs that are probably going to be addressed first, and a handful of QoL.

Even some of the most communicative devs (GGG for example) will not acknowledge what people think are major concerns unless it actually is. They have a ton more data than we do and we have no idea what their internal state is.


At the end of the day we represent a very small portion of the user base and most of the missing content isn't even released so the weight of our feedback is a bit diminished.

It's whatever though, if you want them to listen you'll need to get a nice tidal wave of criticism going and I think their focus is going to be more on the narrative side of things at the end of the day.
Whenever I read someone concerned about the line of action regarding feedbacks I share this link

https://www.google.com.br/amp/s/sil...e-flaws-of-divinity-original-sin-ii/amp/

Use the search to find “the big issue”

You are ready to go regarding your expectations vs feedbacks
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Tuco
Yeah, this update pissed me off a bit.
Not for the lack of big changes in the patch (I already said more than once that minor hotfixes are all I'm expecting on the long term) but because the official post that accompanied the patch spent most of its length throwing useless factoids at us without even PRETENDING to acknowledge (let alone address) the most recurring points of criticism.

I think the problem is not that larian doesn't address anything, is that it seems like they're addressing very specific things - the data they get from our playthroughs. It's the second or third time since the release of the EA that all Larian is talking about is data they collected from people playing the game. nothing about comments from the community. like we are some kind of lab rats in their experiment lol

The worrying part is that the conclusions they reach based on that data they collect seem to have some serious bias. I would even call it tunnel vision.
Btw, I have to apologize for my earlier comment. I had not yet noticed the recent community update.
Originally Posted by Argonaut
@Vhaldez

I backed DivOS and DivOS2. They doubled back on promises that where bought and paid for and ignored community feedback even by people who had paid a premium for that privilege. It wasn't just DivOS2 EA. I genuinely do not understand how people can still defend Larian in this day and age.


Guess it's time to uninstall and come back in two-three years then.

Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Tuco
Yeah, this update pissed me off a bit.
Not for the lack of big changes in the patch (I already said more than once that minor hotfixes are all I'm expecting on the long term) but because the official post that accompanied the patch spent most of its length throwing useless factoids at us without even PRETENDING to acknowledge (let alone address) the most recurring points of criticism.

I think the problem is not that larian doesn't address anything, is that it seems like they're addressing very specific things - the data they get from our playthroughs. It's the second or third time since the release of the EA that all Larian is talking about is data they collected from people playing the game. nothing about comments from the community. like we are some kind of lab rats in their experiment lol

The worrying part is that the conclusions they reach based on that data they collect seem to have some serious bias. I would even call it tunnel vision.


Isn't the 75%-25% thing just a meme? Surely they're not really thinking people ignore the "evil" path because they are good in real life.

Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Tuco
Yeah, this update pissed me off a bit.
Not for the lack of big changes in the patch (I already said more than once that minor hotfixes are all I'm expecting on the long term) but because the official post that accompanied the patch spent most of its length throwing useless factoids at us without even PRETENDING to acknowledge (let alone address) the most recurring points of criticism.

I think the problem is not that larian doesn't address anything, is that it seems like they're addressing very specific things - the data they get from our playthroughs. It's the second or third time since the release of the EA that all Larian is talking about is data they collected from people playing the game. nothing about comments from the community. like we are some kind of lab rats in their experiment lol

The worrying part is that the conclusions they reach based on that data they collect seem to have some serious bias. I would even call it tunnel vision.

I must admit, I had that feeling.
Maybe just a bit, but I can't deny it.
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Tuco
Yeah, this update pissed me off a bit.
Not for the lack of big changes in the patch (I already said more than once that minor hotfixes are all I'm expecting on the long term) but because the official post that accompanied the patch spent most of its length throwing useless factoids at us without even PRETENDING to acknowledge (let alone address) the most recurring points of criticism.

I think the problem is not that larian doesn't address anything, is that it seems like they're addressing very specific things - the data they get from our playthroughs. It's the second or third time since the release of the EA that all Larian is talking about is data they collected from people playing the game. nothing about comments from the community. like we are some kind of lab rats in their experiment lol

The worrying part is that the conclusions they reach based on that data they collect seem to have some serious bias. I would even call it tunnel vision.

I'm sure there is much value in the data they collect and never shuts up about, but I'm not sure they understand the limitations of this kind of data.
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Tuco
Yeah, this update pissed me off a bit.
Not for the lack of big changes in the patch (I already said more than once that minor hotfixes are all I'm expecting on the long term) but because the official post that accompanied the patch spent most of its length throwing useless factoids at us without even PRETENDING to acknowledge (let alone address) the most recurring points of criticism.

I think the problem is not that larian doesn't address anything, is that it seems like they're addressing very specific things - the data they get from our playthroughs. It's the second or third time since the release of the EA that all Larian is talking about is data they collected from people playing the game. nothing about comments from the community. like we are some kind of lab rats in their experiment lol

The worrying part is that the conclusions they reach based on that data they collect seem to have some serious bias. I would even call it tunnel vision.


Am I the only one who thinks most of this patch is stuff they were already working on before the EA came out?

And they do mention the community...Twitch...

and stan memes?
That data mentality isn't Larian speaking, it's WotC/Hasbro.

Anyone familiar with tabletop and these two publishers knows that they love statistical surveys and the only thing they take away from it is how to model their product for increasing profits. This is why you see prevalent trends being endorsed and acknowledged without context or consideration. It started with character creation and now it's going into romance, good vs evil and other tripe nonsense and it will continue to go like this probably until shortly before release because, and this is just theory through reasoning, whatever difference there was between them and other devs who wanted the title most likely revolves around "it will sell more because of X Y Z" and now statistics are showing this to not be the case.

I understand that seems like lunacy but again, if you are familiar with WotC/Hasbro this is nothing new. They have dropped multiple projects before for this reason and have released products for this reason as well. Look up how "Dragon Magic" came to be a thing.
Originally Posted by Sozz


Am I the only one who thinks most of this patch is stuff they were already working on before the EA came out?

And they do mention the community...Twitch...

and stan memes?


You are most likely right, they must also be working on Act 1B (and C/D), Acts 2 and 3 etc. behind the scenes while slowly working backwards to implement feedback. But then they also make funny jokes about how so many people chose the good path meaning there is much good in the world.

Originally Posted by Argonaut
That data mentality isn't Larian speaking, it's WotC/Hasbro.

Anyone familiar with tabletop and these two publishers knows that they love statistical surveys and the only thing they take away from it is how to model their product for increasing profits. This is why you see prevalent trends being endorsed and acknowledged without context or consideration. It started with character creation and now it's going into romance, good vs evil and other tripe nonsense and it will continue to go like this probably until shortly before release because, and this is just theory through reasoning, whatever difference there was between them and other devs who wanted the title most likely revolves around "it will sell more because of X Y Z" and now statistics are showing this to not be the case.

I understand that seems like lunacy but again, if you are familiar with WotC/Hasbro this is nothing new. They have dropped multiple projects before for this reason and have released products for this reason as well. Look up how "Dragon Magic" came to be a thing.


This is probably also why Twitch integration is a basegame feature and why controller support is available etc. marketing decisions to appeal to certain demographics.

Originally Posted by Sozz


Am I the only one who thinks most of this patch is stuff they were already working on before the EA came out?


I get that impression too.
Reading you is very dissapointing because everyone before the EA's launch said something like "Larian always listen to players".
That's exactly why I bought the EA, to give my feedback and hope BG3 could become the followings of the legend.

If they don't listen, I think the "DoS3" things will definitely become true.
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Of course they aren't.

they've already cashed in on BG3 pretty hard with a legal caveat in case they decide to never finish it.


Yeeeaaahhhh that's would not make a whole lot of sense from a business standpoint; not finishing the game when you know they have the funds to do so lol. I am confident they will finish this game as they feel they should.

That said, this update is a bummer. Better cinematics is not enough of a reason for me to replay this a 3rd time. I just want a working level cap increase frown That alone would have kept me going because then you can at least experiment with new power! I also didn't really care for how many players slept with who. Thanks for sharing but a content update of any kind - be it new leveling stats or new encounter(s) - would have kept me going.

Funny I decided to fire up DoS2 DE since I never ran through DE (beat it a long time ago before they released that update) and it's like wow look at all the stuff that's working flawlessly! You would think that at least some fundamentals would already be in place in BG3 working properly like inventory management/trade management/hotbar management, clicking on party portraits the first time instead of the 4th time to try and highlight the god damn char.
@cgexile
The EA legal caveat includes "might never be finished" my dude. Remember that the game finishing is not up to larian but WotC/Hasbro.

Oh and DivOS2 DE still has a lot of bugs and features that are not working / balanced but Larian doesn't care. I've posted videos of such stuff in the mega threads area in the RTwP VS Turn based thread if you are interested but you can look up "Manithro" on youtube and his entire channel is breaking the combat system and explaining in detail why the balance is horrendous. Hell, I'll just link them again

Solo last boss with Cat - 1 turn kill
It's not a bug it's a feature
Mages are balanced and phys damage is fair

I wonder, do people who bought dos2 EA had to pay extra for the definitive edition?
Originally Posted by Tequilaman
I don't really know if Larian is listening.

What do you think?


I hope they do.
Even if at this very moment i'am not really happy with BG3 for many different reasons, I still have a faith that on Day 1 it will become the game i've been waiting for.
Only time will tell, but it's nice to say so many regular updates from them.
Originally Posted by Sozz

Am I the only one who thinks most of this patch is stuff they were already working on before the EA came out?

As I said, the content of the patch itself is the last of my concerns when it comes to this update.
Originally Posted by azarhal
The only problem are people putting a morality value on the consequences instead of on the decisions/motivations of the characters. That's valid for posters and some people at Larian. It's not just about that quest. The companion's alignment threads are full of people arguing X or Y are good because they like pets. Go check the D&D alignment description, none of them says you can't like pets if evil or that good have to like pets.

Stealing isn't evil only when you get caught. It's always bad.
Saving people because you wanted to get revenge on someone holding them captive isn't you being a goody-two-shoes.
Killing the 3 leaders because Haslin won't help you otherwise and he looks like the best healer option isn't you going out of your way to save the Tieflings and play the hero.

I suspect most people have never seen the Raid/Defend the Grove, as the game set you on the "kill the 3 leaders" path from the start. I'm even surprised that they call the Defend the Grove the good path when you have to betray the trust of both the Tielfings and Minthara to get there. You're character is a selfserving asshole on that path.

Bumping this comment. In my first playthrough I was playing a self-centered, asshole, evil character. I saved the grove because that was the option I thought would benefit me the most (Halsin could heal me and Gut tried to kill me). I wonder how many of those "75% of players stood with the tieflings" were playing evil characters...
Originally Posted by Abits
I wonder, do people who bought dos2 EA had to pay extra for the definitive edition?


No, it was auto-added to my steam library.
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by azarhal
The only problem are people putting a morality value on the consequences instead of on the decisions/motivations of the characters. That's valid for posters and some people at Larian. It's not just about that quest. The companion's alignment threads are full of people arguing X or Y are good because they like pets. Go check the D&D alignment description, none of them says you can't like pets if evil or that good have to like pets.

Stealing isn't evil only when you get caught. It's always bad.
Saving people because you wanted to get revenge on someone holding them captive isn't you being a goody-two-shoes.
Killing the 3 leaders because Haslin won't help you otherwise and he looks like the best healer option isn't you going out of your way to save the Tieflings and play the hero.

I suspect most people have never seen the Raid/Defend the Grove, as the game set you on the "kill the 3 leaders" path from the start. I'm even surprised that they call the Defend the Grove the good path when you have to betray the trust of both the Tielfings and Minthara to get there. You're character is a selfserving asshole on that path.

Bumping this comment. In my first playthrough I was playing a self-centered, asshole, evil character. I saved the grove because that was the option I thought would benefit me the most (Halsin could heal me and Gut tried to kill me). I wonder how many of those "75% of players stood with the tieflings" were playing evil characters...


I can tell you that I was one of those evil characters. I might be several even if they keep track of playthrough and not profiles.
Originally Posted by Limz
Originally Posted by Tuco
Yeah, this update pissed me off a bit.
Not for the lack of big changes in the patch (I already said more than once that minor hotfixes are all I'm expecting on the long term) but because the official post that accompanied the patch spent most of its length throwing useless factoids at us without even PRETENDING to acknowledge (let alone address) the most recurring points of criticism.


You know aside from a few people this place is nearly an echo chamber and the population is quite small; you have the same 5-6 retards bitching about 5e not being RAW, you have a bunch of people requesting for X or Y class, a bunch of bugs that are probably going to be addressed first, and a handful of QoL.

Even some of the most communicative devs (GGG for example) will not acknowledge what people think are major concerns unless it actually is. They have a ton more data than we do and we have no idea what their internal state is.


At the end of the day we represent a very small portion of the user base and most of the missing content isn't even released so the weight of our feedback is a bit diminished.

It's whatever though, if you want them to listen you'll need to get a nice tidal wave of criticism going and I think their focus is going to be more on the narrative side of things at the end of the day.


All true, what it bothers me tho it's that they incentives us, the "small player base", to report our feedback here in the forum and on steam. If they ask us to do so and then completely ignore our feedback then we should be rightfully pissed off.

I don't demand anything, they are not required to implement all the feedback just because, I'm just asking for them to consider and respond to our concerns (since we paid 60€). Why should we care how many times the dog was petted? It's cute and all but this isn't what updates should be about.
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Reading you is very dissapointing because everyone before the EA's launch said something like "Larian always listen to players".
That's exactly why I bought the EA, to give my feedback and hope BG3 could become the followings of the legend.

If they don't listen, I think the "DoS3" things will definitely become true.

Let's be clear, Larian DOES listen at what the players say. They did even with their past early access experiences.

What they don't do, on the other hand, is trusting their user base feeling on a topic after all that listening.

Here's the typical "Larian Cycle" when it comes to feedback:

Larian: "here’s our clever design."
Everyone: "Boy, that sucks."
Larian: "Nuh-uh, you’ll come around eventually."

*Two years later*

Larian: "Boy, that surely sucked, uh? Too bad what’s done is done."
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Originally Posted by Abits
I wonder, do people who bought dos2 EA had to pay extra for the definitive edition?


No, it was auto-added to my steam library.

That's what I thought since in my game (I bought the definitive version) you have both versions and can choose which one to play. It's actually really cool. As a DMC fan I hate the idea of having to pay more for the same game with some new content
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Reading you is very dissapointing because everyone before the EA's launch said something like "Larian always listen to players".
That's exactly why I bought the EA, to give my feedback and hope BG3 could become the followings of the legend.

If they don't listen, I think the "DoS3" things will definitely become true.


totally agree
Originally Posted by Tuco


Here's the typical "Larian Cycle" when it comes to feedback:

Larian: "here’s our clever design."
Everyone: "Boy, that sucks."
Larian: "Nuh-uh, you’ll come around eventually."

*Two years later*

Larian: "Boy, that surely sucked, uh? Too bad what’s done is done."





It would be nice if they kept us in the loop on what grand vision they have for the "evil" path and the Absolute. I sure hope it won't feel contrived if the latter gets a massive power increase in Act 1B / 2 and we are suddenly facing down a god or god-killer, or if the former leads to us becoming demigods through the ascension at Moonrise.

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Reading you is very dissapointing because everyone before the EA's launch said something like "Larian always listen to players".
That's exactly why I bought the EA, to give my feedback and hope BG3 could become the followings of the legend.

If they don't listen, I think the "DoS3" things will definitely become true.


Amen to that.

So is Larian actually listening to feedback here?
NO
I hope not. IMHO, DOS2: Definitive Edition was basically the game we should have gotten on initial release.

I am worried about the FULL release of BG3, as my first FULL release play of DOS2 on the first week of release was full of bugs and broken quests and crashes. DOS2: DE, which came out well after the initial FULL game, was basically an attempt to finally fix all of that.

They advertised new content and new combat, but it was very minimal and you were playing the same game. Most of the mods and features they added were created by the players because of their inactivity.

They were a small studio without much revenue or notoriety until then, so they had an excuse. With the money they have now, there is no excuse for this game to be mismanaged.
Dos2 DE is a variable I didn't consider at all in all of my comparisons... What are the biggest differences between normal dos2 and de?
Originally Posted by Abits
Dos2 DE is a variable I didn't consider at all in all of my comparisons... What are the biggest differences between normal dos2 and de?


Improved AI
Balanced enemies magic resistance and armour to make mage compositions more viable
Added about 8 new combat encounters across the entire game
Added some minor quest and story content
Attempted to fix Arx (last act), which many complained about.

So, basically, the original DOS2 wasn't really complete when they released it 12 months out from its EA. I am worried the same will happen for this one, which means that it's almost better for me not to play BG3 immediately upon release.

Their QC system is terrible and I have no idea why they had people sign NDA to do play testing and they didn't find any of the stuff we found.
Can
Originally Posted by gaymer
Originally Posted by Abits
Dos2 DE is a variable I didn't consider at all in all of my comparisons... What are the biggest differences between normal dos2 and de?


Added some minor quest and story content.

Can you elaborate about this part a little?
I bet they got caught a bit off guard with the level of engagement (both in sales and in the forums). They are silent because they must have 1-2 people in charge of ALL forum posts.
This patch fixes things the developers can see without any feedback from Customer Support / QA / whoever is incharge of the forums. They probably didn't read the vast majority of the posts and definitely did not incorporate it in the work-plan for this patch.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see if it will be changed in future patches.
Originally Posted by Abits
Can
Originally Posted by gaymer
Originally Posted by Abits
Dos2 DE is a variable I didn't consider at all in all of my comparisons... What are the biggest differences between normal dos2 and de?


Added some minor quest and story content.

Can you elaborate about this part a little?


They added Ser Lora as a companion for the entire game, who is a Squirrel Knight. He follows you around and occasionally says stuff.

Some of the end-game quests and content in Arx were expanded upon and given some additional combat to make the story flow smoother. IMHO, it was just more stuff to kill for EXP and it didn't really tie the story together.

And now they added some sets of armour and other items that have its own story, but I haven't played it since they added this.
Originally Posted by gaymer
Originally Posted by Abits
Can
Originally Posted by gaymer
Originally Posted by Abits
Dos2 DE is a variable I didn't consider at all in all of my comparisons... What are the biggest differences between normal dos2 and de?


Added some minor quest and story content.

Can you elaborate about this part a little?


They added Ser Lora as a companion for the entire game, who is a Squirrel Knight. He follows you around and occasionally says stuff.

Some of the end-game quests and content in Arx were expanded upon and given some additional combat to make the story flow smoother. IMHO, it was just more stuff to kill for EXP and it didn't really tie the story together.

And now they added some sets of armour and other items that have its own story, but I haven't played it since they added this.

Lame. Sir Loras is the most useless thing I have ever seen in a video game
Sure would be nice if they could use those stats and analytics on the forum conversations happening by the end users.
Originally Posted by Sharet
Originally Posted by Limz
Originally Posted by Tuco
Yeah, this update pissed me off a bit.
Not for the lack of big changes in the patch (I already said more than once that minor hotfixes are all I'm expecting on the long term) but because the official post that accompanied the patch spent most of its length throwing useless factoids at us without even PRETENDING to acknowledge (let alone address) the most recurring points of criticism.


You know aside from a few people this place is nearly an echo chamber and the population is quite small; you have the same 5-6 retards bitching about 5e not being RAW, you have a bunch of people requesting for X or Y class, a bunch of bugs that are probably going to be addressed first, and a handful of QoL.

Even some of the most communicative devs (GGG for example) will not acknowledge what people think are major concerns unless it actually is. They have a ton more data than we do and we have no idea what their internal state is.


At the end of the day we represent a very small portion of the user base and most of the missing content isn't even released so the weight of our feedback is a bit diminished.

It's whatever though, if you want them to listen you'll need to get a nice tidal wave of criticism going and I think their focus is going to be more on the narrative side of things at the end of the day.


All true, what it bothers me tho it's that they incentives us, the "small player base", to report our feedback here in the forum and on steam. If they ask us to do so and then completely ignore our feedback then we should be rightfully pissed off.

I don't demand anything, they are not required to implement all the feedback just because, I'm just asking for them to consider and respond to our concerns (since we paid 60€). Why should we care how many times the dog was petted? It's cute and all but this isn't what updates should be about.


What bothers me is that you - and others! - seem to mistake the fact Larian asks for our feedback for the power to decide. It is one thing to listen and quite another to fully adopt whatever might be suggested. Which, I might add, is contradictory at the best of times. Some people may pretend their point of view is universally shared, but the truth is that we, as a group, tend to disagree with one another. Furthermore, has any of you considered that it might take a bit more time to implement various suggestions IF they are deemed worthwhile? Changes aren't trivial. Quite apart from possible balance concerns, anything that is changed may require new dialogue to be recorded, after said dialogue has been written in the first place, cinematics, plot changes, map changes and the list goes on.
Well it is one thing to listen and say "Okey but we prefer it that way" and another to just ignore
I imagine there is some attention here, but I imagine most of their information is going to come from datamining on the people currently playing. Judging from the review numbers on the Steam entry, this forum represents a fraction of the current audience. Especially since I doubt the review numbers represent even a quarter of the people who have purchased. Because most people are lazy and tend not to report on stuff like this.

To be perfectly honest it feels like giving heavy weighting to this forum would be irresponsible since we are simply the vocal minority. Important to observe and take into consideration, yeah, but there's the risk that appeasing us actually overall harms the success of the game.

Especially since we are divided all over the place.

Some people love Jump and Shove others don't.
Some people love the complex environments and height advantage, others don't.
Some people think it's too much Divinity, others don't think so. (I need to actual play some divinity to have an effective opinion here.)
Some are fine or approve of the compromises with the Tabletop rules, others insist on total accuracy.

There's not much in the way of subjects that we aren't effectively split down the middle on. And it's not like we're allied on subjects at all times. Person A is fine with issue X but not Y. Person B is fine with Y and Z but not X. So, we're all going to find something we want not happening and in some cases what we don't get is a dealbreaker that's just the way it is. There isn't anything for but just that.

Even listening to us doesn't mean they'll decide what we say is something they want to do. We can complain all we want, say "dumbed down" or some other term, but it doesn't give us any more validity or authority. And if the couple hundred of us here on this forum all got to the point we didn't want to play the game...and given how all over we are, I doubt that would happen....it would still be a fraction of the total audience and would likely still be very successful.

Regardless of whether all the things I want to happen get in or not, I hope the game is successful because it will introduce new people to D&D which will introduce new people to the roleplaying hobby in one form or another. And even if that's just as players of video games or spectators of the RPG streams, it grows the community and reaches more people and more players and more GMs and more designers.
Originally Posted by Thrythlind
I imagine there is some attention here, but I imagine most of their information is going to come from datamining on the people currently playing. Judging from the review numbers on the Steam entry, this forum represents a fraction of the current audience. Especially since I doubt the review numbers represent even a quarter of the people who have purchased. Because most people are lazy and tend not to report on stuff like this.

To be perfectly honest it feels like giving heavy weighting to this forum would be irresponsible since we are simply the vocal minority. Important to observe and take into consideration, yeah, but there's the risk that appeasing us actually overall harms the success of the game.

Especially since we are divided all over the place.

Some people love Jump and Shove other don't.
Some people love the complex environments and height advantage, others don't.
Some people think it's too much Divinity, others don't think so. (I need to actual play some divinity to have an effective opinion here.)
Some are fine or approve of the compromises with the Tabletop rules, others insist on total accuracy.

There's not much in the way of subjects that we aren't effectively split down the middle on. And it's not like we're allied on subjects at all times. Person A is fine with issue X but not Y. Person B is fine with Y and Z but not X. So, we're all going to find something we want not happening and in some cases what we don't get is a dealbreaker that's just the way it is. There isn't anything for but just that.

Even listening to us doesn't mean they'll decide what we say is something they want to do. We can complain all we want, say "dumbed down" or some other term, but it doesn't give us any more validity or authority. And if the couple hundred of us here on this forum all got to the point we didn't want to play the game...and given how all over we are, I doubt that would happen....it would still be a fraction of the total audience and would likely still be very successful.

Regardless of whether all the things I want to happen get in or not, I hope the game is successful because it will introduce new people to D&D which will introduce new people to the roleplaying hobby in one form or another. And even if that's just as players of video games or spectators of the RPG streams, it grows the community and reaches more people and more players and more GMs and more designers.


We signed up for the focus testing program to see what features are marketable on release. The grand vision of BG3 won't change, especially considering how little we know about the story beyond Act 1.
Maybe if we got the community to run around on the map spelling RTWP with their footsteps...
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
[quote=Thrythlind]

We signed up for the focus testing program to see what features are marketable on release. The grand vision of BG3 won't change, especially considering how little we know about the story beyond Act 1.


Yeah, by the time a game gets to this stage, a lot of it is set in stone.
Originally Posted by Darth Rauko
So is Larian actually listening to feedback here?
NO


Yes.
Originally Posted by Thrythlind
I imagine there is some attention here, but I imagine most of their information is going to come from datamining on the people currently playing. Judging from the review numbers on the Steam entry, this forum represents a fraction of the current audience. Especially since I doubt the review numbers represent even a quarter of the people who have purchased. Because most people are lazy and tend not to report on stuff like this.

To be perfectly honest it feels like giving heavy weighting to this forum would be irresponsible since we are simply the vocal minority. Important to observe and take into consideration, yeah, but there's the risk that appeasing us actually overall harms the success of the game.

Especially since we are divided all over the place.

Some people love Jump and Shove other don't.
Some people love the complex environments and height advantage, others don't.
Some people think it's too much Divinity, others don't think so. (I need to actual play some divinity to have an effective opinion here.)
Some are fine or approve of the compromises with the Tabletop rules, others insist on total accuracy.

There's not much in the way of subjects that we aren't effectively split down the middle on. And it's not like we're allied on subjects at all times. Person A is fine with issue X but not Y. Person B is fine with Y and Z but not X. So, we're all going to find something we want not happening and in some cases what we don't get is a dealbreaker that's just the way it is. There isn't anything for but just that.

Even listening to us doesn't mean they'll decide what we say is something they want to do. We can complain all we want, say "dumbed down" or some other term, but it doesn't give us any more validity or authority. And if the couple hundred of us here on this forum all got to the point we didn't want to play the game...and given how all over we are, I doubt that would happen....it would still be a fraction of the total audience and would likely still be very successful.

Regardless of whether all the things I want to happen get in or not, I hope the game is successful because it will introduce new people to D&D which will introduce new people to the roleplaying hobby in one form or another. And even if that's just as players of video games or spectators of the RPG streams, it grows the community and reaches more people and more players and more GMs and more designers.

Everything you said is completely valid and I think anyone who ever raised any suggestion or complaint in this forum should always keep it in mind.

However, there is power in the hardcore fanbase and I don't think it should be disregarded so casually. And like I said I would appreciate ANY kind of comment. Short list of possible comments I would have appreciated-
-"we saw your comments but there are just too much for us to properly respond right now"
-"we saw your comments and we disagree with them so we'll do things our way"
-"we didn't saw your comments yet"
What I don't appreciate is the complete indifference. They wrote a very long update. They could add a line about the discussion in the communities. But, like I said, it seems right now like we are little more than data to them.
Where are we actually standing? EA is a somewhat open term.
Reading through this post i start to fear that this company is like a lot of others, taking money and then just investing the minimal amount of that money and using the rest for other stuff.

Playing this it still compares a lot to an alpha build. Graphics and animation is annoying but the least of the problems this game has.

I sincerly hope this comes around. Seems very promising. laugh
Originally Posted by Tethtoril
Maybe if we got the community to run around on the map spelling RTWP with their footsteps...


Hmmm, that means we who don't like it would have to run around and write NO all over. But that discussion is already handled in another thread and I have come to the conclusion that Vometia don't want to see it spill over to other threads. So I will leave it at that smile
Originally Posted by Tethtoril
Maybe if we got the community to run around on the map spelling RTWP with their footsteps...

Comment of the year no doubt
Originally Posted by Tuco
Yeah, this update pissed me off a bit.
Not for the lack of big changes in the patch (I already said more than once that minor hotfixes are all I'm expecting on the long term) but because the official post that accompanied the patch spent most of its length throwing useless factoids at us without even PRETENDING to acknowledge (let alone address) the most recurring points of criticism.


This is spot on Tuco. Infuriating to say the least. I should have waited a year to purchase.
Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by Darth Rauko
So is Larian actually listening to feedback here?
NO


Yes.

From the mail that was sent out today:
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems.

An optimistic note to end on. "

Then they shouldn't have said that.
Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
Where are we actually standing? EA is a somewhat open term.
Reading through this post i start to fear that this company is like a lot of others, taking money and then just investing the minimal amount of that money and using the rest for other stuff.

Playing this it still compares a lot to an alpha build. Graphics and animation is annoying but the least of the problems this game has.

I sincerly hope this comes around. Seems very promising. laugh



The fact is. we don't know. And you will find, especially in a thread like this, much of the more negative attitude towards Larian. But only time will tell. We still have at least a year to pass by before we will see the final product.
Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
Where are we actually standing? EA is a somewhat open term.
Reading through this post i start to fear that this company is like a lot of others, taking money and then just investing the minimal amount of that money and using the rest for other stuff.

Playing this it still compares a lot to an alpha build. Graphics and animation is annoying but the least of the problems this game has.

I sincerly hope this comes around. Seems very promising. laugh



The fact is. we don't know. And you will find, especially in a thread like this, much of the more negative attitude towards Larian. But only time will tell. We still have at least a year to pass by before we will see the final product.

what does it even mean? If I criticise certain things Larian does I'm negative?
Originally Posted by Thrythlind
I imagine there is some attention here, but I imagine most of their information is going to come from datamining on the people currently playing. Judging from the review numbers on the Steam entry, this forum represents a fraction of the current audience. Especially since I doubt the review numbers represent even a quarter of the people who have purchased. Because most people are lazy and tend not to report on stuff like this.

To be perfectly honest it feels like giving heavy weighting to this forum would be irresponsible since we are simply the vocal minority. Important to observe and take into consideration, yeah, but there's the risk that appeasing us actually overall harms the success of the game.

Especially since we are divided all over the place.

Some people love Jump and Shove others don't.
Some people love the complex environments and height advantage, others don't.
Some people think it's too much Divinity, others don't think so. (I need to actual play some divinity to have an effective opinion here.)
Some are fine or approve of the compromises with the Tabletop rules, others insist on total accuracy.

There's not much in the way of subjects that we aren't effectively split down the middle on. And it's not like we're allied on subjects at all times. Person A is fine with issue X but not Y. Person B is fine with Y and Z but not X. So, we're all going to find something we want not happening and in some cases what we don't get is a dealbreaker that's just the way it is. There isn't anything for but just that.

Even listening to us doesn't mean they'll decide what we say is something they want to do. We can complain all we want, say "dumbed down" or some other term, but it doesn't give us any more validity or authority. And if the couple hundred of us here on this forum all got to the point we didn't want to play the game...and given how all over we are, I doubt that would happen....it would still be a fraction of the total audience and would likely still be very successful.

Regardless of whether all the things I want to happen get in or not, I hope the game is successful because it will introduce new people to D&D which will introduce new people to the roleplaying hobby in one form or another. And even if that's just as players of video games or spectators of the RPG streams, it grows the community and reaches more people and more players and more GMs and more designers.

I like jump, and shove and height advantage, and surfaces, and the action economy, and I don't care about the hp bloat, or things people are claiming are too hard/easy, or about barrels, which i have never picked up, I don't think its very much like DoS 1&2, neither of which I really liked, except visually, which is fine imo. And I don't care about D&D tabletop, or some sort of magic fidelity to "the books". I am far more interested in bug fixes, stability, combat speed and hanging (which falls under bugs really), plot consistency, story quality and role-playing opportunities, all of which could do with some work from what I have experienced, but all in all its seems like a good game.

I'm just one of those people who are quietly enjoying the game as it stands.

Originally Posted by Argonaut
@cgexile
The EA legal caveat includes "might never be finished" my dude. Remember that the game finishing is not up to larian but WotC/Hasbro.


Sounds more like something an artist would say about their work as they strive for perfection vs actual legal verbiage. If that is the actual quoted text, the word “might” and that whole phrase is pretty vague to be legitimate legal copy.
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Originally Posted by Thrythlind
I imagine there is some attention here, but I imagine most of their information is going to come from datamining on the people currently playing. Judging from the review numbers on the Steam entry, this forum represents a fraction of the current audience. Especially since I doubt the review numbers represent even a quarter of the people who have purchased. Because most people are lazy and tend not to report on stuff like this.

To be perfectly honest it feels like giving heavy weighting to this forum would be irresponsible since we are simply the vocal minority. Important to observe and take into consideration, yeah, but there's the risk that appeasing us actually overall harms the success of the game.

Especially since we are divided all over the place.

Some people love Jump and Shove others don't.
Some people love the complex environments and height advantage, others don't.
Some people think it's too much Divinity, others don't think so. (I need to actual play some divinity to have an effective opinion here.)
Some are fine or approve of the compromises with the Tabletop rules, others insist on total accuracy.

There's not much in the way of subjects that we aren't effectively split down the middle on. And it's not like we're allied on subjects at all times. Person A is fine with issue X but not Y. Person B is fine with Y and Z but not X. So, we're all going to find something we want not happening and in some cases what we don't get is a dealbreaker that's just the way it is. There isn't anything for but just that.

Even listening to us doesn't mean they'll decide what we say is something they want to do. We can complain all we want, say "dumbed down" or some other term, but it doesn't give us any more validity or authority. And if the couple hundred of us here on this forum all got to the point we didn't want to play the game...and given how all over we are, I doubt that would happen....it would still be a fraction of the total audience and would likely still be very successful.

Regardless of whether all the things I want to happen get in or not, I hope the game is successful because it will introduce new people to D&D which will introduce new people to the roleplaying hobby in one form or another. And even if that's just as players of video games or spectators of the RPG streams, it grows the community and reaches more people and more players and more GMs and more designers.

I like jump, and shove and height advantage, and surfaces, and the action economy, and I don't care about the hp bloat, or things people are claiming are too hard/easy, or about barrels, which i have never picked up, I don't think its very much like DoS 1&2, neither of which I really liked, except visually, which is fine imo. And I don't care about D&D tabletop, or some sort of magic fidelity to "the books". I am far more interested in bug fixes, stability, combat speed and hanging (which falls under bugs really), plot consistency, story quality and role-playing opportunities, all of which could do with some work from what I have experienced, but all in all its seems like a good game.

I'm just one of those people who are quietly enjoying the game as it stands.


May I guess that you're mainly here because BG3 is the next Larian's game and not the next Baldur's Gate game and/or D&D game and/or that stand in the FR ? smile
Serious question, that's not some sort of judgement.
So what if he is?
Originally Posted by Abits
So what if he is?


Nothing, just thinking that maybe Larian's fans are more satisfied with the game atm than those playing BG3 for other reasons.
Of course, there is no need to generalize.
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Abits
So what if he is?


Nothing, just thinking that maybe Larian's fans are more satisfied with the game atm than those playing BG3 for other reasons.
Of course, there is no need to generalize.

It's true but I wonder how much of the people who bought BG3 are BG fans and how much are dos fans who don't have much knowledge of bg
I find the note on the Tieflings vs Minthara a little concerning, given that they specifically requested feedback on the evil route and all the critique on it seems to be overwhelmingly in agreement that their "Evil" route is much more akin to Chaotic Stupid than Evil or even Chaotic Asshole (which I play regularly). Would have liked to see them mention again that they've heard the feedback, since they mentioned in the stream weeks ago that they heard players found the goblin route unsatisfying and were tooling with changes.

Of course those kinds of changes are going to take time, and given I'd rather they were working on the actual game and potential rewrites than a bunch of immediate fixes to placate some loud voices on the forums, it's possible that those changes don't trickle down to EA until months from now. That's not a surprise to me in the slightest. Still wish they'd mention they were doing it.
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Abits
So what if he is?


Nothing, just thinking that maybe Larian's fans are more satisfied with the game atm than those playing BG3 for other reasons.
Of course, there is no need to generalize.

It's true but I wonder how much of the people who bought BG3 are BG fans and how much are dos fans who don't have much knowledge of bg


that would be a neat poll to take.
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool

I like jump, and shove and height advantage, and surfaces, and the action economy, and I don't care about the hp bloat, or things people are claiming are too hard/easy, or about barrels, which i have never picked up, I don't think its very much like DoS 1&2, neither of which I really liked, except visually, which is fine imo. And I don't care about D&D tabletop, or some sort of magic fidelity to "the books". I am far more interested in bug fixes, stability, combat speed and hanging (which falls under bugs really), plot consistency, story quality and role-playing opportunities, all of which could do with some work from what I have experienced, but all in all its seems like a good game.

I'm just one of those people who are quietly enjoying the game as it stands.


May I guess that you're mainly here because BG3 is the next Larian's game and not the next Baldur's Gate game and/or D&D game and/or that stand in the FR ? smile
Serious question, that's not some sort of judgement.


Removing my original post, I can say I love Jump and Shove because they match more closely what my scenery chewing group does in any RPG we play, D&D or otherwise.
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
I like jump, and shove and height advantage, and surfaces, and the action economy, and I don't care about the hp bloat, or things people are claiming are too hard/easy, or about barrels, which i have never picked up, I don't think its very much like DoS 1&2, neither of which I really liked, except visually, which is fine imo. And I don't care about D&D tabletop, or some sort of magic fidelity to "the books". I am far more interested in bug fixes, stability, combat speed and hanging (which falls under bugs really), plot consistency, story quality and role-playing opportunities, all of which could do with some work from what I have experienced, but all in all its seems like a good game.

I'm just one of those people who are quietly enjoying the game as it stands.

Thank you for posting. As with most feedback, people who are unhappy (or extremely ecstatic) are more likely to post. Posts from people in the middle of that spectrum (I see that this was your first post) are invaluable for gauging the true opinions of players.

If you haven't already, could you take a few minutes to fill out the survey on various mechanics https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=712680&gonew=1#UNREAD ? I'm not the survey's creator; I'm just in favor of the data collection.

Edit: @Tethtoril, the survey above is collecting data on which people are familiar with 5e rules or not. It's likely not a great representative sample, but it is something
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Originally Posted by Thrythlind
I imagine there is some attention here, but I imagine most of their information is going to come from datamining on the people currently playing. Judging from the review numbers on the Steam entry, this forum represents a fraction of the current audience. Especially since I doubt the review numbers represent even a quarter of the people who have purchased. Because most people are lazy and tend not to report on stuff like this.

To be perfectly honest it feels like giving heavy weighting to this forum would be irresponsible since we are simply the vocal minority. Important to observe and take into consideration, yeah, but there's the risk that appeasing us actually overall harms the success of the game.

Especially since we are divided all over the place.

Some people love Jump and Shove others don't.
Some people love the complex environments and height advantage, others don't.
Some people think it's too much Divinity, others don't think so. (I need to actual play some divinity to have an effective opinion here.)
Some are fine or approve of the compromises with the Tabletop rules, others insist on total accuracy.

There's not much in the way of subjects that we aren't effectively split down the middle on. And it's not like we're allied on subjects at all times. Person A is fine with issue X but not Y. Person B is fine with Y and Z but not X. So, we're all going to find something we want not happening and in some cases what we don't get is a dealbreaker that's just the way it is. There isn't anything for but just that.

Even listening to us doesn't mean they'll decide what we say is something they want to do. We can complain all we want, say "dumbed down" or some other term, but it doesn't give us any more validity or authority. And if the couple hundred of us here on this forum all got to the point we didn't want to play the game...and given how all over we are, I doubt that would happen....it would still be a fraction of the total audience and would likely still be very successful.

Regardless of whether all the things I want to happen get in or not, I hope the game is successful because it will introduce new people to D&D which will introduce new people to the roleplaying hobby in one form or another. And even if that's just as players of video games or spectators of the RPG streams, it grows the community and reaches more people and more players and more GMs and more designers.

I like jump, and shove and height advantage, and surfaces, and the action economy, and I don't care about the hp bloat, or things people are claiming are too hard/easy, or about barrels, which i have never picked up, I don't think its very much like DoS 1&2, neither of which I really liked, except visually, which is fine imo. And I don't care about D&D tabletop, or some sort of magic fidelity to "the books". I am far more interested in bug fixes, stability, combat speed and hanging (which falls under bugs really), plot consistency, story quality and role-playing opportunities, all of which could do with some work from what I have experienced, but all in all its seems like a good game.

I'm just one of those people who are quietly enjoying the game as it stands.


May I guess that you're mainly here because BG3 is the next Larian's game and not the next Baldur's Gate game and/or D&D game and/or that stand in the FR ? smile
Serious question, that's not some sort of judgement.

as i said i my post, i didnt enjoy dos or dos 2, which are the only 2 larian games ive played
What bothers me for real is not the fact that they’re not meeting my expectations in the early access.
For me, my main headache is: there are MAJOR topics which aren’t related to TB vs RTWP that aren’t being debated.

Wouldn’t be asking too much for them to position themselves regarding:

Evaluation of the mechanics changed from the core 5e rules
Evaluation of resting system
Evaluation of social interaction in game
Evaluation of AC/hp shifts

Are they happy with the results? Why they decided to follow that path ?
Why is it better for gaming experience? Is it settled? Can it changes through the course of the Early access?

It’s just a matter of positioning themselves.

Let’s check the next chapters
Originally Posted by Moirnelithe
Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by Darth Rauko
So is Larian actually listening to feedback here?
NO


Yes.

From the mail that was sent out today:
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems.

An optimistic note to end on. "

Then they shouldn't have said that.

mad mad mad
Originally Posted by xxAres
I find the note on the Tieflings vs Minthara a little concerning, given that they specifically requested feedback on the evil route and all the critique on it seems to be overwhelmingly in agreement that their "Evil" route is much more akin to Chaotic Stupid than Evil or even Chaotic Asshole (which I play regularly). Would have liked to see them mention again that they've heard the feedback, since they mentioned in the stream weeks ago that they heard players found the goblin route unsatisfying and were tooling with changes.

Of course those kinds of changes are going to take time, and given I'd rather they were working on the actual game and potential rewrites than a bunch of immediate fixes to placate some loud voices on the forums, it's possible that those changes don't trickle down to EA until months from now. That's not a surprise to me in the slightest. Still wish they'd mention they were doing it.


A small note would go a long way to ease concerns over whatever they put in the announcement post. I think what happened with the evil route is that Larian thought drow sex and plain murder would be enough to entice people to try it. Some of the greatest villains in literature and even games are far more methodical in how they approach their evil acts. They missed the mark, issue is how would rewriting and developing the evil route affect the rest of the story? That's what I'm also worried about. What we see here now might be indicative of the evil choices further into the game.
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems.

An optimistic note to end on. " this comment is so wrong and makes it very hard for me to come into Larian's defence.
At some point in the future I'd also love to know if I'll be ever able to enjoy this game with a control scheme that doesn't completely blow ass.

Playing the Wrath of the Righteous alpha and then moving back to BG3 feels like suddenly becoming physically impaired, when it comes to controlling your party.
Which is impressive on its own, given that in theory I should absolutely dislike the RTWP combat of the former, but it controls so much better in every other scenario.
Originally Posted by Abits
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems.

An optimistic note to end on. " this comment is so wrong and makes it very hard for me to come into Larian's defence.


It sounded like a mockery on their part, given that there are a lot of topics on the forum with feedback about evil root, where it is explained in detail what they did wrong and how to do it better. 50-50 should be Larian's goal, and it's totally possible if they listen to us.
(not Us with nautiloid)
i think we can all agree that while we have been enjoying the game and ea content for the most part thus far, that there are some significant forum topics (combat gameplay, camera/companion controls, narrative/story elements) that get alot of discussion here that would benefit larian to comment on, even if just to say that they are aware and interested in seeing what the community thinks

as someone who was late to the larian dos1/2 party and isnt as familiar with what the ea process for those games were, is there any insight or expectations the community can take from larian's responses to feedback for those games that we can apply here to bg3?
Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
Originally Posted by Tethtoril
Maybe if we got the community to run around on the map spelling RTWP with their footsteps...


Hmmm, that means we who don't like it would have to run around and write NO all over. But that discussion is already handled in another thread and I have come to the conclusion that Vometia don't want to see it spill over to other threads. So I will leave it at that smile


Fucks sake, your game is being made, let me try to get mine.
Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool

I like jump, and shove and height advantage, and surfaces, and the action economy, and I don't care about the hp bloat, or things people are claiming are too hard/easy, or about barrels, which i have never picked up, I don't think its very much like DoS 1&2, neither of which I really liked, except visually, which is fine imo. And I don't care about D&D tabletop, or some sort of magic fidelity to "the books". I am far more interested in bug fixes, stability, combat speed and hanging (which falls under bugs really), plot consistency, story quality and role-playing opportunities, all of which could do with some work from what I have experienced, but all in all its seems like a good game.

I'm just one of those people who are quietly enjoying the game as it stands.


May I guess that you're mainly here because BG3 is the next Larian's game and not the next Baldur's Gate game and/or D&D game and/or that stand in the FR ? smile
Serious question, that's not some sort of judgement.


Removing my original post, I can say I love Jump and Shove because they match more closely what my scenery chewing group does in any RPG we play, D&D or otherwise.


I also like jump and shove, but it's ridiculously implemented atm smile
Originally Posted by nation
as someone who was late to the larian dos1/2 party and isnt as familiar with what the ea process for those games were, is there any insight or expectations the community can take from larian's responses to feedback for those games that we can apply here to bg3?

The problem with a lot of features currently subject to criticism is that it's a "now or never" scenario.
There's no "Maybe they'll talk about this in few months". They either recognize that there is a problem immediately (and then they can feel free to take all the time they want to fix it) or they can keep pretending all is jolly and dandy and let these issues cripple the overall quality of their product.

Which would be a shame, because there's so much here to love.
I've been playing the Baldur's Gate games since the day the first one launched, I loved them for years, I often listed BG2 as possibly my favorite RPG of all times* and I still think Larian here have the building blocks ready to create a game capable to surpass the originals.
IF they readjust the aim now in some minor areas.


* despise a certain amount of shortcomings.








Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Abits
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems.

An optimistic note to end on. " this comment is so wrong and makes it very hard for me to come into Larian's defence.


It sounded like a mockery on their part, given that there are a lot of topics on the forum with feedback about evil root, where it is explained in detail what they did wrong and how to do it better. 50-50 should be Larian's goal, and it's totally possible if they listen to us.
(not Us with nautiloid)

Not only here. everywhere! even on reddit people don't automatically downvote you if you say the evil path needs work. I don't know which option is worse - that Larian is not aware that people think that, or that they are aware and trying to piss on us.
i think they will start looking at improvements at proper time, all we propose here are improvements, you don't try to make your product nicer or cooler while things are still broken in many places, at least you shouldn't do that, is all about priorities
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by nation
as someone who was late to the larian dos1/2 party and isnt as familiar with what the ea process for those games were, is there any insight or expectations the community can take from larian's responses to feedback for those games that we can apply here to bg3?

The problem with a lot of features currently subject to criticism is that it's a "now or never" scenario.
There's no "Maybe they'll talk about this in few months". They either recognize that there is a problem immediately (and then they can feel free to take all the time they want to fix it) or they can keep pretending all is jolly and dandy and let these issues cripple the overall quality of their product.

Which would be a shame, because there's so much here to love.
I've been playing the Baldur's Gate games since the day the first one launched, I loved them for years, I often listed BG2 as possibly my favorite RPG of all times* and I still think Larian here have the building blocks ready to create a game capable to surpass the originals.
IF they readjust the aim now in some minor areas.


* despise a certain amount of shortcomings.



I have the same feelings as you (and I usually agree with you) but I think more and more that we will both be disappointed...
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
I like jump, and shove and height advantage, and surfaces, and the action economy, and I don't care about the hp bloat, or things people are claiming are too hard/easy, or about barrels, which i have never picked up, I don't think its very much like DoS 1&2, neither of which I really liked, except visually, which is fine imo. And I don't care about D&D tabletop, or some sort of magic fidelity to "the books". I am far more interested in bug fixes, stability, combat speed and hanging (which falls under bugs really), plot consistency, story quality and role-playing opportunities, all of which could do with some work from what I have experienced, but all in all its seems like a good game.

I'm just one of those people who are quietly enjoying the game as it stands.

Thank you for posting. As with most feedback, people who are unhappy (or extremely ecstatic) are more likely to post. Posts from people in the middle of that spectrum (I see that this was your first post) are invaluable for gauging the true opinions of players.

If you haven't already, could you take a few minutes to fill out the survey on various mechanics https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=712680&gonew=1#UNREAD ? I'm not the survey's creator; I'm just in favor of the data collection.

Edit: @Tethtoril, the survey above is collecting data on which people are familiar with 5e rules or not. It's likely not a great representative sample, but it is something

Yeah bro i definately filled that out as soon as i knew it existed.

I've deleted facebook due to the silliness and politicization of all things or i wouldve shared it on there too.
Originally Posted by Tuco
At some point in the future I'd also love to know if I'll be ever able to enjoy this game with a control scheme that doesn't completely blow ass.

Playing the Wrath of the Righteous alpha and then moving back to BG3 feels like suddenly becoming physically impaired, when it comes to controlling your party.
Which is impressive on its own, given that in theory I should absolutely dislike the RTWP combat of the former, but it controls so much better in every other scenario.


Ah, a fellow wrath tester. After playing both it's hard not to compare the two, for me wrath is winning out by a huge margin. Just my opinion.
Originally Posted by brunotavm
i think they will start looking at improvements at proper time, all we propose here are improvements, you don't try to make your product nicer or cooler while things are still broken in many places, at least you shouldn't do that, is all about priorities

true. but still:
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems.

An optimistic note to end on. "
that's it I'm adding this line to my signature
In 3 weeks they never communicated on combat mechanics and other feedbacks, i think that it shows quite well that they will never do it in the future...
I liked the 40 hours of my run except for many things that are listed in the feedback threads, but let's be honest, they have a vision of what their Baldur's gate should be and they will never deviate from their path.
Sad but i have no hope regarding feedbacks listening .
Originally Posted by Calim
In 3 weeks they never communicated on combat mechanics and other feedbacks, i think that it shows quite well that they will never do it in the future...
I liked the 40 hours of my run except for many things that are listed in the feedback threads, but let's be honest, they have a vision of what their Baldur's gate should be and they will never deviate from their path.
Sad but i have no hope regarding feedbacks listening .

They didn't communicate about anything don't exclude the other aspects of the game they said nothing about

Originally Posted by Abits
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems.

An optimistic note to end on. " this comment is so wrong and makes it very hard for me to come into Larian's defence.


I work in data science and analytics. I really hope some marketer wrote that to be cute because if those are the insights their analysts derived from this, I have zero confidence in Larian Studios’ capability to correctly analyze any data.

I’ve remained neutral-to-optimistic on my experience so far, but this latest communication kicked my enthusiasm for the game square in the nuts.
Clearly the neat stats they've shown us so far are just fun facts they want to present to humor us. Like who players are romancing or how many times the dog has been pet. Doesn't make me think "they're using this data to conclude that Shadowheart needs to be more attractive". Similarly, I wouldn't think anything of the good vs evil route.
Originally Posted by Schepel
Originally Posted by Sharet
Originally Posted by Limz
Originally Posted by Tuco
Yeah, this update pissed me off a bit.
Not for the lack of big changes in the patch (I already said more than once that minor hotfixes are all I'm expecting on the long term) but because the official post that accompanied the patch spent most of its length throwing useless factoids at us without even PRETENDING to acknowledge (let alone address) the most recurring points of criticism.


You know aside from a few people this place is nearly an echo chamber and the population is quite small; you have the same 5-6 retards bitching about 5e not being RAW, you have a bunch of people requesting for X or Y class, a bunch of bugs that are probably going to be addressed first, and a handful of QoL.

Even some of the most communicative devs (GGG for example) will not acknowledge what people think are major concerns unless it actually is. They have a ton more data than we do and we have no idea what their internal state is.


At the end of the day we represent a very small portion of the user base and most of the missing content isn't even released so the weight of our feedback is a bit diminished.

It's whatever though, if you want them to listen you'll need to get a nice tidal wave of criticism going and I think their focus is going to be more on the narrative side of things at the end of the day.


All true, what it bothers me tho it's that they incentives us, the "small player base", to report our feedback here in the forum and on steam. If they ask us to do so and then completely ignore our feedback then we should be rightfully pissed off.

I don't demand anything, they are not required to implement all the feedback just because, I'm just asking for them to consider and respond to our concerns (since we paid 60€). Why should we care how many times the dog was petted? It's cute and all but this isn't what updates should be about.


What bothers me is that you - and others! - seem to mistake the fact Larian asks for our feedback for the power to decide. It is one thing to listen and quite another to fully adopt whatever might be suggested. Which, I might add, is contradictory at the best of times. Some people may pretend their point of view is universally shared, but the truth is that we, as a group, tend to disagree with one another. Furthermore, has any of you considered that it might take a bit more time to implement various suggestions IF they are deemed worthwhile? Changes aren't trivial. Quite apart from possible balance concerns, anything that is changed may require new dialogue to be recorded, after said dialogue has been written in the first place, cinematics, plot changes, map changes and the list goes on.


Did you read the part where I say "I don't demand anything, they are not required to implement all the feedback just because"?
Originally Posted by Tuco
The problem with a lot of features currently subject to criticism is that it's a "now or never" scenario.
There's no "Maybe they'll talk about this in few months". They either recognize that there is a problem immediately (and then they can feel free to take all the time they want to fix it) or they can keep pretending all is jolly and dandy and let these issues cripple the overall quality of their product.

Which would be a shame, because there's so much here to love.
I've been playing the Baldur's Gate games since the day the first one launched, I loved them for years, I often listed BG2 as possibly my favorite RPG of all times* and I still think Larian here have the building blocks ready to create a game capable to surpass the originals.
IF they readjust the aim now in some minor areas.


* despise a certain amount of shortcomings.


Very well said. Those are big decisions to be made, but they need to be made (or at least seriously discussed internally) now, not when the game is about to be released. I'm not saying they should do anything without proper consideration or churn out the patch with 3 overhauls tomorrow - but now is the time to start doing something about underlying systems in the game.

That said - perhaps something IS being done about those and we just don't know that. Perhaps they are internally testing stuff we've been vigorously discussing over the past weeks and aren't telling us so we can't tell them "U FUCKEN PROMISED" should they change their minds.

Though even then - it would alleviate some... player anxiety if they stated something like "We are aware of several major points of discussion regarding game systems and we are working on some of them. We'll share more specifics once we feel more confident about releasing these for public testing.".

If I'm not mistaken, Swen said (German streamers twitch interview) that they were planning to release some info on "this feature is currently in the works". I'm very surprised it's still not here. Like people have been suggesting the dialogue improvements (the whole party talks) since EA launched and we know (from the same interview) it's something that was supposed to be included on EA release but wasn't ready.
Originally Posted by Limz
[...]
Even some of the most communicative devs (GGG for example) will not acknowledge what people think are major concerns unless it actually is. [...]

True. GGG's commuication is probably the best in the industry. I recall during Closed Beta (man I miss the Fellshrine runs) I issued some serious negative feedback within the game, not even the forums. After a few hours I had a PM in my inbox from Chris Wilson apologizing. I'm not kidding. Still got the PM in my box after all those years. I felt pretty bad though after receiving it and apologized back wink
Originally Posted by TravelingBuddha

Originally Posted by Abits
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems.

An optimistic note to end on. " this comment is so wrong and makes it very hard for me to come into Larian's defence.


I work in data science and analytics. I really hope some marketer wrote that to be cute because if those are the insights their analysts derived from this, I have zero confidence in Larian Studios’ capability to correctly analyze any data.

I’ve remained neutral-to-optimistic on my experience so far, but this latest communication kicked my enthusiasm for the game square in the nuts.


Those release are mostly going to marketing oriented. They're under no obligation to share in depth analysis with us, and to be honest, doing such would turn off a lot of audiences.
People need to realize this is beta and were bug smashers that's it. God i hope you can mo1d this game
I think we just have to wait for an update on gameplay mechanics and see what kind of direction they are taking. Right now, they have not responded to these burning topics. But, as an extreme example, if they were to give us an update where shove and jump get buffed, literally the opposite of what everyone wants, then we would know they really don't care. Or if we don't get any response to the hot topics before Christmas, it's gonna look really bad. But for now, although I wish they commented on it, they have not yet brought up the topics. At this point we can criticize them for not communicating that well, but not for ignoring feedback, I would say.
Really reading quite heavily into a quick info post up. They released a patch and threw up some stats of gameplay, I've seen that done with HoI4s, Swtor, FO76 and others, doesn't mean much other than the fact that they're recording various stats. It's not like a lead came out and said 75% sided with the teiflings so obviously we will only be focusing on the good path.

As for if they're reading feedback I'd be surprised if they aren't, I mean they did ask for feedback and this is their main forum. Now they may not be reading screeching posts or hyperbolic posts but who knows. As for acknowledging it, maybe they'll post about it or maybe it'll just show in future patches, I mean some of the major complaints ie. the "evil" path or combat complaints aren't things that could be immediately addressed anyways. Reality is even if they responded you're just getting responses from community managers or some other PR speak person so it's meaningless other than you get to feel good about being acknowledged.
Originally Posted by denhonator
Clearly the neat stats they've shown us so far are just fun facts they want to present to humor us. Like who players are romancing or how many times the dog has been pet. Doesn't make me think "they're using this data to conclude that Shadowheart needs to be more attractive". Similarly, I wouldn't think anything of the good vs evil route.

I agree that these stats are meant to be "fun facts to humor us." The problem lies that for the past two weeks, we haven't heard anything from Larian. Meanwhile, we've had a lot of good (and bad) discussion on these forums about things that mean a lot to us. Narrative, combat, gameplay things that we feel are fantastic or terrible for the game. And after 2 weeks of silence, Larian puts out an update that mentions almost none of these things. Not even a line saying "we are currently still reading through feedback."

Quote
Speaking of good boys, last update we discussed how Gale was ultimately attacked quite a lot. Check out last week’s update for the stats on that. Somewhat contradicturally, he’s the most “romanced” of the party.

This line stood out to me much more than the "75-25% stood with tieflings" line. They bring up the fact that Gale dies a lot, which they acknowledged in the previous update. This has been the subject of many forum discussions: how enemies focus on the lowest-AC character, how enemies attack downed party members, the lack of the spell "Shield" in the game, etc. And Larian just glosses over all that feedback, all those hours we have put in, to tell us "Gale has been romanced the most!!!"

Either they are aware of these issues we have discussed, in which case the humor-only-update reads as condescension. Or they are unaware of our complaints/praises, in which case what is the point of anything we're doing here?

tl;dr: Larian might be working on all of our feedback. They might be making decisions on whether AI should attacked downed enemies based on our suggestions. But we don't know. And it is frustrating to see a patch/Community Update (that we've been eagerly waiting for) with little acknowledgement of our feedback.
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
Where are we actually standing? EA is a somewhat open term.
Reading through this post i start to fear that this company is like a lot of others, taking money and then just investing the minimal amount of that money and using the rest for other stuff.

Playing this it still compares a lot to an alpha build. Graphics and animation is annoying but the least of the problems this game has.

I sincerly hope this comes around. Seems very promising. laugh



The fact is. we don't know. And you will find, especially in a thread like this, much of the more negative attitude towards Larian. But only time will tell. We still have at least a year to pass by before we will see the final product.

what does it even mean? If I criticise certain things Larian does I'm negative?



I'm sorry, that was my answer to UnknownEvil that, what I take from what he wrote, seemed to have lost a bit of hope. And, taken the thread title, plus people's disappointment, mine included, with the latest community update, into account(?) you ofc will meet a lot of harsh critique and negative emotions right now. justified or not. It was just a reminder for him/her to not condemn the company when there's still so much time left for them to improve. I never meant to offend anyone in this thread. Clearly I manage to do that enough in my own threads smile
I’d say that was the worst scenario possible that was expecting in their community update. From what it seems they’re trying to increase the replayability of the early access instead of moving forward.

It’s okay working on the bugs for those who are still hyped by EA
It’s“ nice to have” bringing that data related to the gameplay decisions
It’s vital to know where the company is heading now. I wasn’t expecting a damn deadline. I simply do not care about it at all. I just want to know how they’ll handle that major topics and what’s their vision of the future for the game.
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
I’d say that was the worst scenario possible that was expecting in their community update. From what it seems they’re trying to increase the replayability of the early access instead of moving forward.


I mean not really? They are polishing graphics and tweaking performance but this update seems to just be the in-dev stuff from pre-EA. There is nothing in it that incentivises me to invest another 70 hours into EA right now.
Tuco
I would like to try Wrath of the Righteous.
After playing BG3 EA, I would like it more and more...
I feel like I put my dibs on the wrong horse
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
I’d say that was the worst scenario possible that was expected in their community update. From what it seems they’re trying to increase the replayability of the early access instead of moving forward.


I mean not really? They are polishing graphics and tweaking performance but this update seems to just be the in-dev stuff from pre-EA. There is nothing in it that incentivizes me to invest another 70 hours into EA right now.


I mean EA is their main way of getting data and feedback about how people play the game and want to play it ( data AND feedback in this particular order it seems).
So it seems only natural they want to increase the replayability.

Sven said in an interview just after EA release they won't be making any public roadmap or public announcement as to what they are working on or what they will be working on. Mostly because everything is subject to change and they want to have the freedom to remove something from the game without deceiving expectations. So I'm afraid you can straight up forget about Larian making a public announcement like " Yeah, we are considering increased party size". One day it will happen or it won't, there won't be any middle ground or public statement regarding their point of view on this.
Originally Posted by Zefhyr
Tuco
I would like to try Wrath of the Righteous.
After playing BG3 EA, I would like it more and more...
I feel like I put my dibs on the wrong horse


WotR definitely plays much more like BG1&2 from a computer game standpoint. BG3 at this point is (was?) Trying to be an actual true to D&D tabletop game, not a BG game. But they said as much way before EA.
Originally Posted by WinterbornGuard
Originally Posted by Zefhyr
Tuco
I would like to try Wrath of the Righteous.
After playing BG3 EA, I would like it more and more...
I feel like I put my dibs on the wrong horse


WotR definitely plays much more like BG1&2 from a computer game standpoint. BG3 at this point is (was?) Trying to be an actual true to D&D tabletop game, not a BG game. But they said as much way before EA.


Except about TB, not sure BG3 is really closer to D&D than BG1/2 were...
Originally Posted by WinterbornGuard
Originally Posted by Zefhyr
Tuco
I would like to try Wrath of the Righteous.
After playing BG3 EA, I would like it more and more...
I feel like I put my dibs on the wrong horse


WotR definitely plays much more like BG1&2 from a computer game standpoint. BG3 at this point is (was?) Trying to be an actual true to D&D tabletop game, not a BG game. But they said as much way before EA.

I'm an early backer of P:WotR, but don't have the time to be a tester. So I haven't yet been able to play the game. So looking forward to it though.
Come on guys... Larian have given themselves upwards of a year to fix stuff and you’re crying that after two weeks the patches only fix minor bugs and cinematics? Come’s across as a little entitled.
This.

I had a good feeling when the mod pinned the suggestions and feedback thread. Then a bad one when they changed its root forum.

But this update really lacked substance.

I still have hope they are discussing some of the most concerning points and will at least give us some feedback.

This is not divinity.

BG3 was far more expensive, they started ea to throw ideas and get feedback. Having that in mind I jumped to the foruns and have been trying my best to be fair.

I don't think everything that's suggested should be done. But at least don't ignore us.

So Larian.

Do listen to the feedback you wanted, don't let these people who trusted, some who still do (I have hope) down.
Originally Posted by virion
Originally Posted by Vhaldez
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
I’d say that was the worst scenario possible that was expected in their community update. From what it seems they’re trying to increase the replayability of the early access instead of moving forward.


I mean not really? They are polishing graphics and tweaking performance but this update seems to just be the in-dev stuff from pre-EA. There is nothing in it that incentivizes me to invest another 70 hours into EA right now.


I mean EA is their main way of getting data and feedback about how people play the game and want to play it ( data AND feedback in this particular order it seems).
So it seems only natural they want to increase the replayability.

Sven said in an interview just after EA release they won't be making any public roadmap or public announcement as to what they are working on or what they will be working on. Mostly because everything is subject to change and they want to have the freedom to remove something from the game without deceiving expectations. So I'm afraid you can straight up forget about Larian making a public announcement like " Yeah, we are considering increased party size". One day it will happen or it won't, there won't be any middle ground or public statement regarding their point of view on this.



Ouch. I’m afraid of that freedom. After all balance was never their strength to begin with.

Also, from the client perspective it couldn’t be worse. Imagine they marketing a car and receiving a bike instead. Our main intention is not to put our fingers in their campaign, still we want to know if in the end that campaign we’ve backed will be BG3 or king of the hill medieval simulator.
At this point im thinking cut my losses, expect nothing and wait for path of righteousness which i didnt even know existed until this thread, so thank you for that!
Reality checks for commentators :

a) Changes to the rules and design of the game can take longer than one week or two. These decisions require thought and a lot of discussions within the Larian team.

b) Beyond the fluffy funny introduction to the update, this update focuses mostly on crashes and bug fixing, and new passes on the cut-scenes (which they will do every EA update really).
Which is understandable.
Also see point A.

I am *not* saying the core systems are good at the moment --for example the party/character movement out of combat is annoying as hell and I suffered it for over 100 hours in DOS1 already-- but changes to the design, rules and engine will take more than a few weeks.
Originally Posted by Tethtoril
At this point im thinking cut my losses, expect nothing and wait for path of righteousness which i didnt even know existed until this thread, so thank you for that!

It's Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous.
Just in case you want an actual chance to track it down.
Fixing crashing and cinematics in EA first makes sense. What doesn't make sense is changing the AI (Gael) before making some decisions that affect game balance- if they decide to make changes.

Honestly, I think there is a chance that they limit barrelmancy, change shove to an action, perhaps adjust reactions- but I doubt they will ever make it Solasta like. Many more people than just 5e devotees will play this game. I think many of you need to adjust your expectations.
Originally Posted by Riandor
Come on guys... Larian have given themselves upwards of a year to fix stuff and you’re crying that after two weeks the patches only fix minor bugs and cinematics? Come’s across as a little entitled.


Well, this makes any attempt to have a discussion a bit pointless, because what you are doing here is beating a strawman, not addressing the real point.
No one is complaining the current patch is not fixing everything and satisfying all our desires, the disappointment comes from the written update absolutely refusing to acknowledge any of the major points of criticism so far.
It's not even that I was expecting a "P.S. Tuco, we totally noticed all your bitching about the awful controls and we are fixing everything by tomorrow. You're the hero of our design team. Sleep well, mate!", but I was hoping for something like a vague handwave in our direction, even if sugarcoated like "We also received a lot of valuable feedback about rule implementation, controls, reactivity, Ui and we are working to address it".
But nah, here's some trivia about what demographic likes to bang who.


And just for the record, for anyone willing to smugly wave around the good old "You forum dwellers are a niche, everyone else likes it", two corrections:
1) I like it too, which doesn't mean I can't find flaws in it.
2) If you people take your time to check video reactions and stuff, you'll see that while the general reception tends to be good, even a lot of more "casual" users are spotting the rough sides on this current version of the game. For instance you don't have to be a 5th Edition purist to realize that hopping around is the most efficient strategy and that it looks stupid as hell.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Riandor
Come on guys... Larian have given themselves upwards of a year to fix stuff and you’re crying that after two weeks the patches only fix minor bugs and cinematics? Come’s across as a little entitled.


Well, this makes any attempt to have a discussion a bit pointless, because what you are doing here is beating a strawman, not addressing the real point.
No one is complaining the current patch is not fixing everything and satisfying all our desires, the disappointment comes from the written update absolutely refusing to acknowledge any of the major points of criticism so far.
It's not even that I was expecting a "P.S. Tuco, we totally noticed all your bitching about the awful controls and we are fixing everything by tomorrow. You're the hero of our design team. Sleep well, mate!", but I was hoping for something like a vague handwave in our direction, even if sugarcoated like "We also received a lot of valuable feedback about rule implementation, controls, reactivity, Ui and we are working to address it".
But nah, here's some trivia about what demographic likes to bang who.


And just for the record, for anyone willing to smugly wave around the good old "You forum dwellers are a niche, everyone else likes it", two corrections:
1) I like it too, which doesn't mean I can't find flaws in it.
2) If you people take your time to check video reactions and stuff, you'll see that while the general reception tends to be good, even a lot of more "casual" users are spotting the rough sides on this current version of the game. For instance you don't have to be a 5th Edition purist to realize that hopping around is the most efficient strategy and that it looks stupid as hell.

+1
But they’ve already stated they’re reviewing the forums and reddit etc...

The last two updates have been pretty "minor" in terms of actual content or changes and I would expect that to be addressed at some point. I could be wrong of course, and I would certainly prefer if Larian were more open with discussing roadmaps, plans, etc... but that’s the kind of stuff I expect after a month or so of gathering and internalising, rather than a rash "yes we’ll fix everything" comment. I know that’s not what you are after Tuco either, but some on these boards are at least coming across as rather quite pissed off after what has been merely a couple of weeks since release In a still tricky work environment.

Sometimes no news is good news. No they haven’t stated what they intend to fix, they also haven’t stated they won’t fix some of the larger topics in here either. Think for now we should accept the updates as what they are, upgrades whilst they work on the big stuff and see what happens a little later down the line.

But hey that’s just me.
Originally Posted by Riandor
But they’ve already stated they’re reviewing the forums and reddit etc...

The last two updates have been pretty "minor" in terms of actual content or changes and I would expect that to be addressed at some point. I could be wrong of course, and I would certainly prefer if Larian were more open with discussing roadmaps, plans, etc... but that’s the kind of stuff I expect after a month or so of gathering and internalising, rather than a rash "yes we’ll fix everything" comment. I know that’s not what you are after Tuco either, but some on these boards are at least coming across as rather quite pissed off after what has been merely a couple of weeks since release In a still tricky work environment.

Sometimes no news is good news. No they haven’t stated what they intend to fix, they also haven’t stated they won’t fix some of the larger topics in here either. Think for now we should accept the updates as what they are, upgrades whilst they work on the big stuff and see what happens a little later down the line.

But hey that’s just me.


yeap if they have no clear timeline on when they will address a problem, makes no difference at all to mention it at this point, wait at least 2 months before complaining of not being heard, be reasonable
Originally Posted by Riandor
But they’ve already stated they’re reviewing the forums and reddit etc...

The last two updates have been pretty "minor" in terms of actual content or changes and I would expect that to be addressed at some point. I could be wrong of course, and I would certainly prefer if Larian were more open with discussing roadmaps, plans, etc... but that’s the kind of stuff I expect after a month or so of gathering and internalising, rather than a rash "yes we’ll fix everything" comment. I know that’s not what you are after Tuco either, but some on these boards are at least coming across as rather quite pissed off after what has been merely a couple of weeks since release In a still tricky work environment.

Sometimes no news is good news. No they haven’t stated what they intend to fix, they also haven’t stated they won’t fix some of the larger topics in here either. Think for now we should accept the updates as what they are, upgrades whilst they work on the big stuff and see what happens a little later down the line.

But hey that’s just me.

I guess we'll see either way. I want to bring up the quote again"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems." this quote can mean one of two things, both are kinda bad:
1. Larian is giving us the finger - they know we know we didn't like the evil route because no one (including me) can shut up about it, and want to show us they don't care
2. They have no idea - no higher-up of Larian ever laid eyes on any forum that discusses this game. Even Reddit, that is the most pro bg3 online right now, has posts criticizing the evil route that doesn't get downvoted as much as other criticism against the game. If Larian really has no idea we think so poorly about this story bit, it makes sense they will draw the wrong conclusions if they rely only on game statistics. And if that's the case, it just shows how limited this approach is in trying to figure out how to move forward.

the only other option I can think of which is much more optimistic is that Larian is simply focusing on bug fixes polishing the current experience. But if that's true, what about the rest of the game? does Larian plan to move forward and continue writing the next bits of the story without making sure that what they have now works? by the by, why asking the players to try the evil route in the first place if you are not interested in making any changes?

to summarize I'm just really confused.
I just assumed all of the cutesy stats and fun facts they threw into the updates where jokes. I don't think we're supposed to be taking them super seriously or reading into them too much. Maybe I'm just an optimist.

I totally understand why some people (aka most people in this thread) find it frustrating tho.
I totally think it’s fine to highlight that the stats are likely skewed because “reason ABC”. I still read that as a little harmless fun insights, similar to the generic character creation one.

I don’t expect these little updates to come out and say: “oh people obviously aren’t being evil because we totally made being evil super hard to figure out and unrewarding”.

1 - Because even if you do most people jump on you anyway for not realizing prior to release / and usually want to know what you’re going to do about it!!

2 - Not everyone got the “hey try and be evil memo”. I have several friends who just bought the EA thinking it was further along and that the companions were not evil just grumpy or weird and go on with being their usual good guy selves. It’s what the majority feel comfortable with and given none of the companions really push you or get too bothered if you play it safe and nice, there’s little real obvious incentive to play “evil”.

Which is totally valid criticism of course!!
I hope that they will draw the right conclusions, because I really want to play on the path of evil, and so that it is deeper and more thoughtful. And I want other players to try it too.
Unfortunately, in any relationship, the things that make people endearing becomes the things you don't like when you're upset with them. Their jokes becomes mocking statements of disregard that ignore the real issues, their goofy CEO becomes an idiot because dancing around in armor and making something you don't like must mean you are a buffoon, statistics become a measure of how tone deaf they are to the real problems. It ignores the underlying issue which is primarily one of feeling connected to the process that the paying members of EA enthusiastically participating in. If those posts didnt change at all, but devs came in here and commented on a thread "thats a great idea, we've had some discussions on how to implement it and it is still ongoing. Love the chat, hope this is something we can do keep it coming!", then people wouldn't care.

Right now though, its what makes people quit companies. The C-Level Executives and upper management's plans and strategies are beknownst only to them, each director has only their relevant peek into it, and at the end of the day anyone below upper management doesn't know why they are doing anything, if it matters, and half the time it looks like the companies moves past any reasonable input because you don't understand their decision making process. So you stop caring because they aren't listening and you go into "pulling a paycheck" mode where bare minimum to keep your stuff functioning starts and the thing that makes companies stay in business - innovation - dies. What they are doing is killing innovation because people stop giving ideas.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Riandor
Come on guys... Larian have given themselves upwards of a year to fix stuff and you’re crying that after two weeks the patches only fix minor bugs and cinematics? Come’s across as a little entitled.


Well, this makes any attempt to have a discussion a bit pointless, because what you are doing here is beating a strawman, not addressing the real point.
No one is complaining the current patch is not fixing everything and satisfying all our desires, the disappointment comes from the written update absolutely refusing to acknowledge any of the major points of criticism so far.
It's not even that I was expecting a "P.S. Tuco, we totally noticed all your bitching about the awful controls and we are fixing everything by tomorrow. You're the hero of our design team. Sleep well, mate!", but I was hoping for something like a vague handwave in our direction, even if sugarcoated like "We also received a lot of valuable feedback about rule implementation, controls, reactivity, Ui and we are working to address it".
But Nah, here's some trivia about what demographic likes to bang who.


And just for the record, for anyone willing to smugly wave around the good old "You forum dwellers are a niche, everyone else likes it", two corrections:
1) I like it too, which doesn't mean I can't find flaws in it.
2) If you people take your time to check video reactions and stuff, you'll see that while the general reception tends to be good, even a lot of more "casual" users are spotting the rough sides on this current version of the game. For instance, you don't have to be a 5th Edition purist to realize that hopping around is the most efficient strategy and that it looks stupid as hell.


Rolling 1d20 intelligence to agree with you. Target 2. Ah..Failed... you're wrong , after all you're a forum dweller(Quick Load).

But on a more serious note I have to agree. Most of the issues here really have nothing to do with being a purist of d&d rules. ^^ And in the largest threads people tend to give not only a problem but a reasonable solution attached with it. Hence the reactions about romance updates lol.
Well Orbax if you feel that way, I’m not here to tell you you’re wrong. I mean my understanding of EA was to help out financially, get a shot at playing early and provide some feedback.

I don’t remember being promised anything in particular, but Larian did say multiple times they would gather and listen. The fact that no big announcement on issues has been made either way simply suggests to me they aren’t ready to discuss those items with us yet.

We’ve had some bug fixes, nothing else... Larian haven’t even added OR DISCUSSED the changes and additions we know will come (classes etc...), should we question those now too because they weren’t in either update?

Let’s not get our knickers in a twist eh?! I’ve worked in software development, I’ve seen nothing to make me concerned in any of their commutations “so far”.
Originally Posted by virion

Rolling 1d20 intelligence to agree with you. Target 2. Ah..Failed... you're wrong , after all you're a forum dweller(Quick Load).

Yep. and I will keep being one for a while, given that my government just decided to shut down my gym for at least a month (because three and half in the first half of the year weren't enough to bankrupt me, apparently), which makes me temporarily unemployed.
Want to preface the following comment with a lot dev studios are terrible with communication related to their games in development. So not unique to Larian.

Forbes has a few articles related to the importance of feedback economy especially to consumers utilizing feedback sources (like forums). Its highly recommended if not considered critical to respond directly to feedback, even if you don't have an answer, often. Letting the consumer know they have been heard regularly makes a huge difference in the quality of the feedback going forward.

Side note: will see if I can find and link them, been a little bit since I originally found them (months). Only cause they had some interesting statistics about it.
Originally Posted by Riandor
Well Orbax if you feel that way, I’m not here to tell you you’re wrong. I mean my understanding of EA was to help out financially, get a shot at playing early and provide some feedback.

I don’t remember being promised anything in particular, but Larian did say multiple times they would gather and listen. The fact that no big announcement on issues has been made either way simply suggests to me they aren’t ready to discuss those items with us yet.

We’ve had some bug fixes, nothing else... Larian haven’t even added OR DISCUSSED the changes and additions we know will come (classes etc...), should we question those now too because they weren’t in either update?

Let’s not get our knickers in a twist eh?! I’ve worked in oft ware development, I’ve seen nothing to make me concerned in any of their commutations “so far”.


I'm a Technical Solutions Architect that for almost two decades has done nothing but develop, deploy, and support enterprise applications for companies in the billions for annual rev. I do a heck of a lot better than these guys walking people through this stuff. Its a simple tactic - communicate a bunch so people don't ask you questions and repeat known issues. If users know what is up, the channel quiets down to new issues and everyone has more time to find and focus on the high priority issues. The level of effort is so low - that is what is blowing my mind. Can anyone say what this will look like in 2 weeks? 1? Thats crazy. Im at 250 hours into this right now, so it isn't like im flipping them the bird, but my submission rate has dropped to a tenth of the previous rate. If they care they can ask about something. The throw sht against the wall and see what sticks attitude isn't that much fun, ill just play the game and hope their in-game engine is giving them something useful as that is the only thing they are really acknowledging right now.
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Let me use copy paste because I’ve said that this earlier

I’m using this argument for a while regarding what’s the Larian counterpart for the community feedback.

-DOS2 “we’ve removed weapon durability”. Yes, that’s it. That’s all you’ll get.

And after 3 years after full release Larian will incorporate QoL mods in their system that was created by the community as well.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m also suggesting many things to the game and so on. But I’m not expecting to have this problem solved &/or to have my opinions implemented.

The point of feedback in EA is not supposed to be “hey customer, let’s work together and develop the game”. It’s more like: “I have a project, here’s my concept, could you please be so kind and increase my cashflow?”


Yep exactly. And this is EXACTLY why the whole "early access" argument does not work. Too many posters here keep nonsensically defending Larian, for some odd reason, stating that all of the problems are justified because it's "early access."

Thousands of feedback threads have been made, and not once has Larian acknowledged any of it. This game is definitely going down the typical "early access" route that we see time and time again, in which the "EA" release is 99% similar to the final release. It sure seems that's what's happening here.


No quality of life updates or core aspects of the game have been improved since release. such as:


1) Perks / abilities / passives / etc DO NOT appear in the character sheet. For example, at level 2 for warlock I chose "Agonizing Blast" and "Devil's Sight" as additional passives. However, NOWHERE in the character sheet (or entire game) does it display that I now have these for my warlock. I would only know I have them because I remember picking them. It is a serious oversight to not have ALL of the character progressions and advancements display in the character sheet.

2) Unclear status effects on spells, lack of a compendium. Many spells that cause status effects are unclear in what they actually do. For example, "Blind." The tooltip on this spell states it causes "Blindness" that can be shaken off with a saving throw, but it does not state what the actual effects of Blindness are. Does Blindness mean that attacks can't be made? Or does it mean they just have less of a chance to hit? The tooltip on the spell is incomplete in this sense, and the lack of a compendium means that I cannot look it up anywhere in the game. Another example is "Silence," which creates a sphere in which all creatures are "Silenced." What does Silenced mean? Does it mean they are literally silent, or does it mean they cannot cast abilities? Again, the spell tooltip is unclear. This is true for MANY spells. Either expand the tooltips, or create a compendium where the player can read about status effects and what they do.

3) Hidden details on spells / abilities that are not listed in the tooltip. One example here being "Hex." If the concentration of Hex is ever broken, Hex can be recast on another target without the use of a spell slot. This is not mentioned on the tooltip. Another example is "Shatter," which is an AoE spell, but nowhere on the tooltip is it actually listed as AoE. It makes me wonder how many other spells have hidden effects that I am unaware of.

4) Inconsistent rules. The example here being if I cast "Darkness," why is it that my warlock with Devil's Sight cannot see or attack in the zone of Darkness? If the rules are supposed to follow D&D, then my warlock SHOULD BE ABLE to see and attack in the Darkness spell effect. In this game, that is not the case, and it is unclear why. Furthermore, how does this make "Darkness" any different from "Fog?" Perhaps this is a simple oversight in game design and programming.

5) Lack of a rulebook. If the entire game is based on the rules of D&D and even plays exactly like D&D with dice rolls, why not include an in-game rulebook? It's easy enough to google all sorts of rules, but at least including the basics would make sense. This of course would simply be a quality of life change, and an optional compendium that exists for players that want it.
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Riandor
Well Orbax if you feel that way, I’m not here to tell you you’re wrong. I mean my understanding of EA was to help out financially, get a shot at playing early and provide some feedback.

I don’t remember being promised anything in particular, but Larian did say multiple times they would gather and listen. The fact that no big announcement on issues has been made either way simply suggests to me they aren’t ready to discuss those items with us yet.

We’ve had some bug fixes, nothing else... Larian haven’t even added OR DISCUSSED the changes and additions we know will come (classes etc...), should we question those now too because they weren’t in either update?

Let’s not get our knickers in a twist eh?! I’ve worked in oft ware development, I’ve seen nothing to make me concerned in any of their commutations “so far”.


I'm a Technical Solutions Architect that for almost two decades has done nothing but develop, deploy, and support enterprise applications for companies in the billions for annual rev. I do a heck of a lot better than these guys walking people through this stuff. Its a simple tactic - communicate a bunch so people don't ask you questions and repeat known issues. If users know what is up, the channel quiets down to new issues and everyone has more time to find and focus on the high priority issues. The level of effort is so low - that is what is blowing my mind. Can anyone say what this will look like in 2 weeks? 1? Thats crazy. Im at 250 hours into this right now, so it isn't like im flipping them the bird, but my submission rate has dropped to a tenth of the previous rate. If they care they can ask about something. The throw sht against the wall and see what sticks attitude isn't that much fun, ill just play the game and hope their in-game engine is giving them something useful as that is the only thing they are really acknowledging right now.


+1 regular feedback from the developer increases the quality of feedback you receive.
Originally Posted by WinterbornGuard
Want to preface the following comment with a lot dev studios are terrible with communication related to their games in development. So not unique to Larian.

Forbes has a few articles related to the importance of feedback economy especially to consumers utilizing feedback sources (like forums). Its highly recommended if not considered critical to respond directly to feedback, even if you don't have an answer, often. Letting the consumer know they have been heard regularly makes a huge difference in the quality of the feedback going forward.

Side note: will see if I can find and link them, been a little bit since I originally found them (months). Only cause they had some interesting statistics about it.

Totally, though with more communication and acknowledgement comes more consumer expectation, but that in general is fine.

I do think there are valid points being made, like uncertainty over whether remarks by Larian regarding stats are serious or what not and Larian could possibly help themselves by adding “oh characters look like this because [insert amusing answer] OR because the community feel there is a lack of choice currently? Comment below ->”

You know open up a debate on these issues with a dash of humor and self critique.

Same here with the evil stat, had it been phrased “oh are you all goody two shoes or did we not entice you enough to the dark side?” People mich have reacted less feverishly.

But I‘lol bow out of this for now and see how it goes. I certainly respect people’s right to critique, I just am against hyperbole at this early stage.
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Riandor
Well Orbax if you feel that way, I’m not here to tell you you’re wrong. I mean my understanding of EA was to help out financially, get a shot at playing early and provide some feedback.

I don’t remember being promised anything in particular, but Larian did say multiple times they would gather and listen. The fact that no big announcement on issues has been made either way simply suggests to me they aren’t ready to discuss those items with us yet.

We’ve had some bug fixes, nothing else... Larian haven’t even added OR DISCUSSED the changes and additions we know will come (classes etc...), should we question those now too because they weren’t in either update?

Let’s not get our knickers in a twist eh?! I’ve worked in software development, I’ve seen nothing to make me concerned in any of their commutations “so far”.


I'm a Technical Solutions Architect that for almost two decades has done nothing but develop, deploy, and support enterprise applications for companies in the billions for annual rev. I do a heck of a lot better than these guys walking people through this stuff. Its a simple tactic - communicate a bunch so people don't ask you questions and repeat known issues. If users know what is up, the channel quiets down to new issues and everyone has more time to find and focus on the high priority issues. The level of effort is so low - that is what is blowing my mind. Can anyone say what this will look like in 2 weeks? 1? Thats crazy. Im at 250 hours into this right now, so it isn't like im flipping them the bird, but my submission rate has dropped to a tenth of the previous rate. If they care they can ask about something. The throw sht against the wall and see what sticks attitude isn't that much fun, ill just play the game and hope their in-game engine is giving them something useful as that is the only thing they are really acknowledging right now.


It’s crazy in your or even my world, but in the game’s industry it’s pretty much par for the course. I don’t know a single game, even when I was doing Alpha on Elite Dangerous and opening thread after thread, or closely following Cyberpunk 2077 that gave a weekly level of communication on what was coming. Anyone know how Diablo4 is shaping up?

If you take these forums, steam, Reddit and any others and glance at all the threads... that’s a metric ton of stuff to wade through. Bugs first, they’re happening, that feedback is being addressed. The rest? I think we can wait a little longer to see how Larian responds, no?

And no I’m not a Larian fanboy, I couldn’t get into DoS2 (though I might have preferred it on pc vs ps4).
I could probably spend less than a day and capture and summarize the top 20 issues across all three. I've been following reddit and here, Steams a mess but I paid attention for like a week on and off. Their biggest issue was expectation setting. If they had said "We have in game metrics running, just play the game, we'll patch ad hoc as we need to, and keep on chugging, we'd appreciate it!" then it wouldn't be an issue. It was the "we are listening so hard, we take all your feedback in so much!" and then doing nothing to meet that expectation. Under-promise, over-deliver. that and "honor your commitments" are kind of the golden rules of business. They oversold it, simple enough.
Originally Posted by Orbax
I'm a Technical Solutions Architect that for almost two decades has done nothing but develop, deploy, and support enterprise applications for companies in the billions for annual rev. I do a heck of a lot better than these guys walking people through this stuff. Its a simple tactic - communicate a bunch so people don't ask you questions and repeat known issues. If users know what is up, the channel quiets down to new issues and everyone has more time to find and focus on the high priority issues. The level of effort is so low - that is what is blowing my mind. Can anyone say what this will look like in 2 weeks? 1? Thats crazy. Im at 250 hours into this right now, so it isn't like im flipping them the bird, but my submission rate has dropped to a tenth of the previous rate. If they care they can ask about something. The throw sht against the wall and see what sticks attitude isn't that much fun, ill just play the game and hope their in-game engine is giving them something useful as that is the only thing they are really acknowledging right now.


Orbax I vehemently agree. I'm in tech in Silicon Valley. Treating customers to near silence about their concerns after your go live gets your company killed.

It's more common in games, probably even more common after an established studio takes in ~ $45M in EA sales, but you don't have to look too far to find other games that did a better job managing EA comms (Hades, Darkest Dungeon).




Originally Posted by Riandor

It’s crazy in your or even my world, but in the game’s industry it’s pretty much par for the course. I don’t know a single game, even when I was doing Alpha on Elite Dangerous and opening thread after thread, or closely following Cyberpunk 2077 that gave a weekly level of communication on what was coming. Anyone know how Diablo4 is shaping up?


While the game industry has set the bar low for comms, you didn't pay full price for a buggy EA for those other examples.

Expectation setting was a fail.
The first few weeks have dominantly been about working to make sure that blockers are fixed first (crashes, saves corrupting or being unable to load, bugs that severely cripples some players' ability to play the game).

I suppose it's also important to point out that while Larian is a big group of people now, not all of them are working on Early Access. One portion works on maintenance, polish and implementing content to EA, while the rest works on actually finishing up the game. And not all of them are involved in writing community updates. In fact you'd count that on less than a hand. Then there's the nuance of corporation and communications, further complicated by Covid and different people working from home, all over the world.

So while processing feedback is fairly easy, I've collected about 80 pages from Discord and the feedback form from the game launcher has seen pages upon pages of feedback as well - Processing that, forwarding it and going through internal discussions, decisions, and then starting to map out what you may start talking about, is not something that's done in a week.

There's a lot more nuance to it than that, but I've tried my best to simplify the gist of it down to a few lines.

What I can tell you though, is that -so much feedback- have gone through the gates, that not only will just reading through it take time, but discussing it would take significantly longer. And only then can you start deciding on additions/changes - At least of what is based on player feedback.

Hopefully my ramblings are found worthwhile at least to some 🙈
I would not say the indications are that Larian *isn't* listening, but rather, we can't be *sure* if they *are* listening...

To Larian moderators & developers,

In the vein of this thread, it would be helpful if you included in your patch notes, "We have heard a lot of what you said regarding X (pick your big topic - 5e rules, ground effects, etc.), and we are evaluating how best to adjust the game as progress develops."

Or

Be straight up in the other direction: "We have heard a lot about what you said regarding X, and we feel we are on track and will continue with XYZ in this regard even though it disagrees with 5e PnP mechanics."

Or

Hey, "We heard what you said about XYZ, and we are implementing fixes that will hopefully blend the 5e mechanics with other cRPG philosophies we believe will benefit the game and community..."

Or

There's a hundred variations...I'm just saying: Give us something to indicate where you're headed in response to the gross amount of feedback in this forum. Very few care about cinematic imperfections at this point -- we know its early access and frankly we want to hear more about how you are handling the finished product with regard to rules & gameplay issues we have brought up versus cinematic imperfections.

$.02
Larian has serious structural issues where it comes to community management. When it comes to communicating with your community I think no one does it better than people working on Path of Exile or Space engineers.

1)In case of path of exile they have their patch notes and updates and on the other hand you have a community manager keeping an eye on the forums, being part of the discussion and passing some of the more important feedback to dev's. You know she will read your bs. She will answer. And if it's not bs but actually structured feedback you will hear what the dev team thought about your " idea". A very successful game.

2)In the case of space engineers, they literally had weekly feedback during EA all the way up to the release. The game itself turned out to be a Frankenstein but the communication was there and was visible. They also had a community manager and his entire work was about being a forum dweller and communicating with the devs + creating the weekly updates. Without it space engineers wouldn't be a nice (failed) idea . It would have been considered as thievery.

3)Path of exile is free to play and space engineers was an EA sold for 10 EUR.

Compare that to BG3. We have patch notes.


I jumped into BG3 EA out of curiosity but also because I hoped for a two way communication. We have a one way communication right now.

But effectively there's no answer regarding the forum feedback. I have no doubt there's a guy at Larian who's going through everything in here trying to create some kind of feedback list for devs. He probably wants to eat his keyboard reading all of the above btw. But this same person should be given time to interact with people from the forums. The same people who just want to stay in touch with a company they entrusted their money for what seems to be less than 20% of the game.

The money you pay for EA is obviously a help for the DEV based on trust but you need to upkeep that trust. With the quality of the product + communication.
For now we have quality (with some flaws) but no communication. I want both cookies.
Originally Posted by The Composer
The first few weeks have dominantly been about working to make sure that blockers are fixed first (crashes, saves corrupting or being unable to load, bugs that severely cripples some players' ability to play the game).

I suppose it's also important to point out that while Larian is a big group of people now, not all of them are working on Early Access. One portion works on maintenance, polish and implementing content to EA, while the rest works on actually finishing up the game. And not all of them are involved in writing community updates. In fact you'd count that on less than a hand. Then there's the nuance of corporation and communications, further complicated by Covid and different people working from home, all over the world.

So while processing feedback is fairly easy, I've collected about 80 pages from Discord and the feedback form from the game launcher has seen pages upon pages of feedback as well - Processing that, forwarding it and going through internal discussions, decisions, and then starting to map out what you may start talking about, is not something that's done in a week.

There's a lot more nuance to it than that, but I've tried my best to simplify the gist of it down to a few lines.

What I can tell you though, is that -so much feedback- have gone through the gates, that not only will just reading through it take time, but discussing it would take significantly longer. And only then can you start deciding on additions/changes - At least of what is based on player feedback.

Hopefully my ramblings are found worthwhile at least to some 🙈

Thank you for this post. I think a lot of us were looking for this type of comment from the Community Update and were disappointed when there wasn't one.
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Riandor
Well Orbax if you feel that way, I’m not here to tell you you’re wrong. I mean my understanding of EA was to help out financially, get a shot at playing early and provide some feedback.

I don’t remember being promised anything in particular, but Larian did say multiple times they would gather and listen. The fact that no big announcement on issues has been made either way simply suggests to me they aren’t ready to discuss those items with us yet.

We’ve had some bug fixes, nothing else... Larian haven’t even added OR DISCUSSED the changes and additions we know will come (classes etc...), should we question those now too because they weren’t in either update?

Let’s not get our knickers in a twist eh?! I’ve worked in oft ware development, I’ve seen nothing to make me concerned in any of their commutations “so far”.


I'm a Technical Solutions Architect that for almost two decades has done nothing but develop, deploy, and support enterprise applications for companies in the billions for annual rev. I do a heck of a lot better than these guys walking people through this stuff. Its a simple tactic - communicate a bunch so people don't ask you questions and repeat known issues. If users know what is up, the channel quiets down to new issues and everyone has more time to find and focus on the high priority issues. The level of effort is so low - that is what is blowing my mind. Can anyone say what this will look like in 2 weeks? 1? Thats crazy. Im at 250 hours into this right now, so it isn't like im flipping them the bird, but my submission rate has dropped to a tenth of the previous rate. If they care they can ask about something. The throw sht against the wall and see what sticks attitude isn't that much fun, ill just play the game and hope their in-game engine is giving them something useful as that is the only thing they are really acknowledging right now.



You can't really compare us, the forumites, to clients such as that honestly it's a different scale and expectations are different. For starters, if you work in enterprise your team definitely has signed some legal paperwork that binds you to respond in certain ways. Also, it's quite often that you're dealing with developer-to-developer or if you're consulting and building an in house solution you're still somewhat part of that process. In other words, expectations are set.

Here it is definitely not the case; we don't know whether or not we're the core demographic or just a small salty bunch with even saltier people in between. There's also no modicum of professionalism between us and the devs; a lot of the negative users here are consistently terrible towards the devs. What incentive would they have to placate those people let alone the rest of us who have zero trustworthiness? It's why A LOT of studios simply have their devs behind a wall because the abuse they face is pretty depressing. Again, this doesn't apply to the enterprise world because lol HR and also lol business ramifications.

You're also giving quality feedback through your game play assuming they bad touched everything with analytics, your actual feedback is shit at the end of the day compared to your actual behaviors in game. The best thing you can do is whenever they do release new content is to play it repeatedly and add more data points.

So, sure, they could talk but what's the point when the energy is generally going to be trending towards the negative. They have their data and the feedback they deem necessary and will address it in time, hopefully to your liking.

I believe the silent majority is what Larian is targeting at the end of the day, the forums are just for shits and giggles and occasionally useful as a tool to get feedback that might have been missed.
Originally Posted by virion
Larian has serious structural issues where it comes to community management. When it comes to communicating with your community I think no one does it better than people working on Path of Exile or Space engineers.

1)In case of path of exile they have their patch notes and updates and on the other hand you have a community manager keeping an eye on the forums, being part of the discussion and passing some of the more important feedback to dev's. You know she will read your bs. She will answer. And if it's not bs but actually structured feedback you will hear what the dev team thought about your " idea". A very successful game.



PoE Devs constantly get shit on and you heard how some of them break down and cry due to the criticism they receive. Also, look at how every league the complaints are the same even though they're pretty much not a vocal issue amongst the majority of players.

So, what you want might not be for the best either for their sanity. But as the Composer alluded to and what you suspected is that there is someone at the other end having to sort through all the stuff to make sense of it.
Originally Posted by mrfuji3

Thank you for this post. I think a lot of us were looking for this type of comment from the Community Update and were disappointed when there wasn't one.

Meh, sort of.
I appreciate that he took the time to write that reply, but without any pretense to speak for everyone else I should probably make it clear that on a personal note I'm not looking for being patted on the head.
What I'd like from Larian is more along the lines of telling us what they are taking away from the feedback. What they are planning to do about it.

"We are listening" should be more a prerequisite than an answer.
Originally Posted by Limz

PoE Devs constantly get shit on and you heard how some of them break down and cry due to the criticism they receive. Also, look at how every league the complaints are the same even though they're pretty much not a vocal issue amongst the majority of players.

So, what you want might not be for the best either for their sanity. But as the Composer alluded to and what you suspected is that there is someone at the other end having to sort through all the stuff to make sense of it.



You get used to it : D tech is a rough biz. They just need to watch this a few times https://youtu.be/r6Lf8GtMe4M
Originally Posted by Limz
Originally Posted by virion
Larian has serious structural issues where it comes to community management. When it comes to communicating with your community I think no one does it better than people working on Path of Exile or Space engineers.

1)In case of path of exile they have their patch notes and updates and on the other hand you have a community manager keeping an eye on the forums, being part of the discussion and passing some of the more important feedback to dev's. You know she will read your bs. She will answer. And if it's not bs but actually structured feedback you will hear what the dev team thought about your " idea". A very successful game.



PoE Devs constantly get shit on and you heard how some of them break down and cry due to the criticism they receive. Also, look at how every league the complaints are the same even though they're pretty much not a vocal issue amongst the majority of players.

So, what you want might not be for the best either for their sanity. But as the Composer alluded to and what you suspected is that there is someone at the other end having to sort through all the stuff to make sense of it.




I mean yes they get shit on due to their decisions BUT bex is staying in touch with reddit. The problems with the shitstorm around GGG was the understanding of " less is more" . After this league they finally understood what this means xD. But now imagine if Bex wasn't here. If the ONLY answer were GGG patchnotes.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Thank you for this post. I think a lot of us were looking for this type of comment from the Community Update and were disappointed when there wasn't one.

Meh, sort of.
I appreciate that he took the time to write that reply, but without any pretense to speak for everyone else I should probably make it clear that on a personal note I'm not looking for being patted on the head.
What I'd like from Larian is more along the lines of telling us what they are taking away from the feedback. What they are planning to do about it.

"We are listening" should be more a prerequisite than an answer.

I didn't say this was a sufficient response. Especially since there were no specifics in that post. But it's more than we got from the Community Update
Originally Posted by virion
Originally Posted by Limz
Originally Posted by virion
Larian has serious structural issues where it comes to community management. When it comes to communicating with your community I think no one does it better than people working on Path of Exile or Space engineers.

1)In case of path of exile they have their patch notes and updates and on the other hand you have a community manager keeping an eye on the forums, being part of the discussion and passing some of the more important feedback to dev's. You know she will read your bs. She will answer. And if it's not bs but actually structured feedback you will hear what the dev team thought about your " idea". A very successful game.



PoE Devs constantly get shit on and you heard how some of them break down and cry due to the criticism they receive. Also, look at how every league the complaints are the same even though they're pretty much not a vocal issue amongst the majority of players.

So, what you want might not be for the best either for their sanity. But as the Composer alluded to and what you suspected is that there is someone at the other end having to sort through all the stuff to make sense of it.




I mean yes they get shit on due to their decisions BUT bex is staying in touch with reddit. The problems with the shitstorm around GGG was the understanding of " less is more" . After this league they finally understood what this means xD. But now imagine if Bex wasn't here. If the ONLY answer were GGG patchnotes.



If you look at what Chris Wilson said they're changing their process and fighting against scope creep but their iteration time remains the same. However, that does not mean they won't try new ideas like Synthesis, Betrayal, Blight, etc which also received a ton of complaints. It's not simply "less is more" some players really just want to map and play iterations of Breach, other players want something else.

But sure, I can imagine if Bex wasn't there because I rarely look at her posts and her posts are only once every 3-4 days depending on the context.

My point is that no dev really wants to bother with the most ungrateful shits that comprise of the vocal community. They obviously didn't bother in DOS2 and it sold fine.
Originally Posted by The Composer
The first few weeks have dominantly been about working to make sure that blockers are fixed first (crashes, saves corrupting or being unable to load, bugs that severely cripples some players' ability to play the game).

I suppose it's also important to point out that while Larian is a big group of people now, not all of them are working on Early Access. One portion works on maintenance, polish and implementing content to EA, while the rest works on actually finishing up the game. And not all of them are involved in writing community updates. In fact you'd count that on less than a hand. Then there's the nuance of corporation and communications, further complicated by Covid and different people working from home, all over the world.

So while processing feedback is fairly easy, I've collected about 80 pages from Discord and the feedback form from the game launcher has seen pages upon pages of feedback as well - Processing that, forwarding it and going through internal discussions, decisions, and then starting to map out what you may start talking about, is not something that's done in a week.

There's a lot more nuance to it than that, but I've tried my best to simplify the gist of it down to a few lines.

What I can tell you though, is that -so much feedback- have gone through the gates, that not only will just reading through it take time, but discussing it would take significantly longer. And only then can you start deciding on additions/changes - At least of what is based on player feedback.

Hopefully my ramblings are found worthwhile at least to some 🙈


They are worthwhile mate. You just need more little imps to help you with it. It's visible from a mile that there's one guy taking care of it. I used to work for a bank. The kind of boring one and the kind of no one heard of. They are everywhere but they are well hidden in the financial structures of this world. We had 5 people working in community relations department. Most of the time they were doing things totally not related to managing community cause a bank community is not exactly as active as a video game forum smile. Still, worst case scenario they could be assigned at any time to deal with a lot of incoming messages from forums, Facebook, Twitter , etc.

So it's more a question of Larian philosophy than anything else. Do you need to have a dedicated team only for this? Eeeeh....probably not. Your company won't cease to exist. Is it safer to avoid this kind of thread on the forum? Yes. On the internet, it doesn't matter what's true or not. What matters is the title of threads on forums and who screams louder. In the end, it's a question of company philosophy and policy.
Originally Posted by Limz

My point is that no dev really wants to bother with the most ungrateful shits that comprise of the vocal community. They obviously didn't bother in DOS2 and it sold fine.


Any dev worth their salt wants to hear all of the opinions. You can get really good ideas even reading the most vitriolic crap. Source 25+ years in I.T., 20 doing development and architecture. If reading mean things makes you sad don't make things that humans interface with, they're all little animals and the nice ones will turn vicious as fast as anyone when it doesn't go their way. Go watch how Jobs treated people at Apple, Bill Gates was a tyrant. You either have vision like they did and its just as miserable or you want the community to help. Star Citizen has its poison too, but I havent paid attention to it in like a year and a half and I still et emails like twice a week from them about all their stuff. I'd say they have a pretty aggressive goal too.

The point is simple: Its possible, its relatively easy. Pretty low odds that I could walk into their offices for a week and walk out saying "Yep. Its impossible to meet their goals and have any kind of interaction with the community. Whoa!"

The fact is they are doing exactly what they want to be doing, and it doesn't involve the community. It wouldn't be an issue if they had made their process and goals clear. The forums would be empty except for a hopeful few and the rest would play the game, beat it, wait for the next patch, and probably play it again.Stop if they aren't having fun anymore. Quiet, simple, we are in accord. Could have been a brothel, we paid our money, got what we wanted no frills, and we go home. Right now, it was implied we'd be getting coffee back at their place and they said "thanks for the ride, I didn't have any change" and patted the taxi off to take you home when you got 3 blocks away from their apartment. If I knew that would have happened I'd have gone to a brothel :p
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Limz

My point is that no dev really wants to bother with the most ungrateful shits that comprise of the vocal community. They obviously didn't bother in DOS2 and it sold fine.


Any dev worth their salt wants to hear all of the opinions. You can get really good ideas even reading the most vitriolic crap. Source 25+ years in I.T., 20 doing development and architecture. If reading mean things makes you sad don't make things that humans interface with, they're all little animals and the nice ones will turn vicious as fast as anyone when it doesn't go their way. Go watch how Jobs treated people at Apple, Bill Gates was a tyrant. You either have vision like they did and its just as miserable or you want the community to help. Star Citizen has its poison too, but I havent paid attention to it in like a year and a half and I still et emails like twice a week from them about all their stuff. I'd say they have a pretty aggressive goal too.

The point is simple: Its possible, its relatively easy. Pretty low odds that I could walk into their offices for a week and walk out saying "Yep. Its impossible to meet their goals and have any kind of interaction with the community. Whoa!"

The fact is they are doing exactly what they want to be doing, and it doesn't involve the community. It wouldn't be an issue if they had made their process and goals clear. The forums would be empty except for a hopeful few and the rest would play the game, beat it, wait for the next patch, and probably play it again.Stop if they aren't having fun anymore. Quiet, simple, we are in accord. Could have been a brothel, we paid our money, got what we wanted no frills, and we go home. Right now, it was implied we'd be getting coffee back at their place and they said "thanks for the ride, I didn't have any change" and patted the taxi off to take you home when you got 3 blocks away from their apartment. If I knew that would have happened I'd have gone to a brothel :p


Orbax : thx for the insight based on experience. Always cool to hear how it might look after years of dealing with this kind of subject form the other side ^^.
Limz : They sold more copies than they expected day one. Such a huge success comes in the end from the games they make. The feedback everyone hears, the one that impacts the sales is based on the majority of those who bought the game. You are right.

Now you have the fact this thread exists. Is it cool for Larian to have it on the forum? Eeeh..not really. Is it avoidable at relatively low cost? Also. Is it impossible to reach successful sales without avoiding it? Absolutely not. But over time the reputation of Larian's EA (and only EA) might be kinda " meeh". It won't be a problem on the short term but on the long run if you can avoid it why not do it?

The thing is most of the things you do to interact with your community are straight pointless when it comes to the goal you're working on. Apart from managing your community "sanity". ^^

Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Limz

My point is that no dev really wants to bother with the most ungrateful shits that comprise of the vocal community. They obviously didn't bother in DOS2 and it sold fine.


Any dev worth their salt wants to hear all of the opinions. You can get really good ideas even reading the most vitriolic crap. Source 25+ years in I.T., 20 doing development and architecture. If reading mean things makes you sad don't make things that humans interface with, they're all little animals and the nice ones will turn vicious as fast as anyone when it doesn't go their way. Go watch how Jobs treated people at Apple, Bill Gates was a tyrant. You either have vision like they did and its just as miserable or you want the community to help. Star Citizen has its poison too, but I havent paid attention to it in like a year and a half and I still et emails like twice a week from them about all their stuff. I'd say they have a pretty aggressive goal too.

The point is simple: Its possible, its relatively easy. Pretty low odds that I could walk into their offices for a week and walk out saying "Yep. Its impossible to meet their goals and have any kind of interaction with the community. Whoa!"

The fact is they are doing exactly what they want to be doing, and it doesn't involve the community. It wouldn't be an issue if they had made their process and goals clear. The forums would be empty except for a hopeful few and the rest would play the game, beat it, wait for the next patch, and probably play it again.Stop if they aren't having fun anymore. Quiet, simple, we are in accord. Could have been a brothel, we paid our money, got what we wanted no frills, and we go home. Right now, it was implied we'd be getting coffee back at their place and they said "thanks for the ride, I didn't have any change" and patted the taxi off to take you home when you got 3 blocks away from their apartment. If I knew that would have happened I'd have gone to a brothel :p



Its a hair different for me. I dont typically use forums as they are clumsy and difficult to organize. Lets not forget that a lot of this concern stems from simply the Title.

We have a generation of gamers that went from "for their times." epic RPGs like NWN made by relatively small companies that took a lot more time to develope games to industry giants like EA (Electronic Arts) buying successful names and systemically raping them for every penny they could pinch from them.

Its been a successful model; and a mostly dissapointing one at that. I dont typically buy early access either but i was hoping this would be a labor of love considering Larians background and the fact that other than WoTC they dont answer to any publishers. Im not attempting to put them in the same bucked as bioware or anything - i'm just saying the community has caught on and most of them are tired of the same old promise of nastalgia only to be greeted with a few pretty cinematics, some good graphics, and shit writing/gameplay so to that end EA for me was me trying to do my part and avoid that outcome.

If thats not what this particular EA was for then okay, my mistake. $60 wasted wont do it again. Itll be the last penny i toss at Larian though.
Originally Posted by Orbax

Any dev worth their salt wants to hear all of the opinions. You can get really good ideas even reading the most vitriolic crap. Source 25+ years in I.T., 20 doing development and architecture. If reading mean things makes you sad don't make things that humans interface with, they're all little animals and the nice ones will turn vicious as fast as anyone when it doesn't go their way.


You want to hear opinions that matters to your particular context - qualified and quantified, the rest can be lumped together (and that's not exactly hearing all of them) - you also have a time frame for it too. Otherwise your feedback would never end nor would your meetings nor your contract which might be good in some cases, but you would also never get a product out.

You can also get really good ideas without going through that shit and you can always hire someone else or have a machine parse through it without ever having to respond to it directly either. How many times does an AT&T engineer actually bother responding to a customer? You either get an automated message or you get a low level rep - not a dev. You would be lucky (or unlucky) to have a dev directly interact with you, otherwise the best you can hope for is that your complaint makes its way through their intake and ends up as a JIRA ticket. That's pretty much the experience of most people and somehow I don't think you're asking for an automated reply. Also, go ahead and look at the github issues opened on say Sendgrid and tell me how many of those complaints say "You guys are so fucking stupid you have no idea what you're doing". Pretty much none.

You're also conflating good development to having to directly read and respond to things; you have CM for that and barring that it isn't a given that you need to write a reply. Most of the time it isn't your job as you're better off coding rather than get involved in arguing with the endless wave.

Most development companies are not what you describe - I've jumped around a few Y Combinator start ups and I do currently work at a Fortune 500 company as a lead developer.

Originally Posted by Orbax

The point is simple: Its possible, its relatively easy. Pretty low odds that I could walk into their offices for a week and walk out saying "Yep. Its impossible to meet their goals and have any kind of interaction with the community. Whoa!"


And the point is it's also simple to read and move on. What isn't simple is having to craft a reply and have it vetted by PR, legal, and what other forces are at play.

I mean what's more simple? Reading and responding or reading?

At the end of the day you aren't entitled to a response. You're entitled to a product that is described on the store page but that's about it.

Originally Posted by Orbax

The fact is they are doing exactly what they want to be doing, and it doesn't involve the community. It wouldn't be an issue if they had made their process and goals clear.


Depends on your definition of involving the community considering that the only way to get the data that they have is for the community to play it and as others have alluded they are taking feedback, but they aren't required to respond directly either. Also, the EA period isn't over so there's plenty of time for them to open up (or not). At the end of the day, they don't need to make their processes or goals clear beyond setting basic expectations and you may have overreached with yours. Would it be better if they did? Maybe. But looking at how DOS2 went and how it sold, I don't think there is a compelling argument that they should change their process viewing it externally.

And here's the funny thing...

Originally Posted by Orbax

The forums would be empty except for a hopeful few and the rest would play the game, beat it, wait for the next patch, and probably play it again.Stop if they aren't having fun anymore. Quiet, simple, we are in accord


This is pretty much what is happening now. All this outrage is pretty much a minority much like the 5e purists.

Also, if you are what you say you are, you earn enough money to do both. In a matter of fact, why not play BG3 while at a brothel.
Originally Posted by virion


Orbax : thx for the insight based on experience. Always cool to hear how it might look after years of dealing with this kind of subject form the other side ^^.
Limz : They sold more copies than they expected day one. Such a huge success comes in the end from the games they make. The feedback everyone hears, the one that impacts the sales is based on the majority of those who bought the game. You are right.

Now you have the fact this thread exists. Is it cool for Larian to have it on the forum? Eeeh..not really. Is it avoidable at relatively low cost? Also. Is it impossible to reach successful sales without avoiding it? Absolutely not. But over time the reputation of Larian's EA (and only EA) might be kinda " meeh". It won't be a problem on the short term but on the long run if you can avoid it why not do it?

The thing is most of the things you do to interact with your community are straight pointless when it comes to the goal you're working on. Apart from managing your community "sanity". ^^



Here's another outcome. They release a content patch that seems to address whatever shortcomings but they never say anything but a cutesy phrase. Instead they might say, "We released a bunch of new stuff and changed some stuff. We're hoping for people to play X Y Z! Did you know a bunch of people did B thing? Wow. " rather than say "We looked at the feedback, felt that it was not right and made some changes because it wasn't in our vision".

They also just release patch notes and have a content and it would be enough for many people here.

Based on how DOS2 went, I don't think they respond through words but by action.
Originally Posted by Limz


Also, if you are what you say you are, you earn enough money to do both. In a matter of fact, why not play BG3 while at a brothel.



Amsterdam has spotty internet, I have to have priorities smirk
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Limz


Also, if you are what you say you are, you earn enough money to do both. In a matter of fact, why not play BG3 while at a brothel.



Amsterdam has spotty internet, I have to have priorities smirk


You said they should collect every opinion. So now we need the opinion of an Amsterdam sex worker + Orbax co-op BG3.

You do want to help give Larian as much feedback as possible right?
Originally Posted by Limz
Originally Posted by virion


Orbax : thx for the insight based on experience. Always cool to hear how it might look after years of dealing with this kind of subject form the other side ^^.
Limz : They sold more copies than they expected day one. Such a huge success comes in the end from the games they make. The feedback everyone hears, the one that impacts the sales is based on the majority of those who bought the game. You are right.

Now you have the fact this thread exists. Is it cool for Larian to have it on the forum? Eeeh..not really. Is it avoidable at relatively low cost? Also. Is it impossible to reach successful sales without avoiding it? Absolutely not. But over time the reputation of Larian's EA (and only EA) might be kinda " meeh". It won't be a problem on the short term but on the long run if you can avoid it why not do it?

The thing is most of the things you do to interact with your community are straight pointless when it comes to the goal you're working on. Apart from managing your community "sanity". ^^



Here's another outcome. They release a content patch that seems to address whatever shortcomings but they never say anything but a cutesy phrase. Instead they might say, "We released a bunch of new stuff and changed some stuff. We're hoping for people to play X Y Z! Did you know a bunch of people did B thing? Wow. " rather than say "We looked at the feedback, felt that it was not right and made some changes because it wasn't in our vision".

They also just release patch notes and have a content and it would be enough for many people here.

Based on how DOS2 went, I don't think they respond through words but by action.




Responding by actions won't solve the fact this kind of topics might appear. That's my point. Like if you think about it there's really 0 issues right now with BG3. It was released not long ago, they already had 3 patches. They went quiet for some time and it seems obvious they are busy. It' s obvious sooner or later they will address some of the issues raised by people from EA, they literally asked for it. But by then some people will already start to talk bs. Matter of choice if you care about those people or not. It's not a cataclysm either :p
Originally Posted by Limz

So now we need the opinion of an Amsterdam sex worker + Orbax co-op BG3.



The internet the way it is, that would probably pay a hell of a lot more than what I make lol. Oh, to be young again
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by mrfuji3

Thank you for this post. I think a lot of us were looking for this type of comment from the Community Update and were disappointed when there wasn't one.

Meh, sort of.
I appreciate that he took the time to write that reply, but without any pretense to speak for everyone else I should probably make it clear that on a personal note I'm not looking for being patted on the head.
What I'd like from Larian is more along the lines of telling us what they are taking away from the feedback. What they are planning to do about it.

"We are listening" should be more a prerequisite than an answer.

To be fair, they can't just knee-jerk make changes based on feedback. They have to analyze the feedback and compare it to their game data. Then they have to decide what the community actually wants. Then what the community wants has to be compared to their goals for the game so they can make a decision.

Unless the feedback is overwhelmingly (and obviously) in a certain direction, that's a big undertaking to get right.
Come on people some of you really need to grow a sense of humor. Somehow I doubt they consider our dog petting and bedwarming habits the pinnacle of feedback collection.

So what did the update do? Made the game PLAYABLE for many people that (like you) paid to (you guessed it) PLAY it - if that's not top priority (or shouldn't be), I don't know what is. Furthermore they fixed some issues for multiplayer again to make it playable.
I'd bet there's separate teams working on graphics that were going to polish the cinematics and the models no matter what, so why not release some as they go.

As for the content, that's certainly a bigger issue and can't or shouldn't be undertaken lightly as it will invariably trigger a domino effect.

You are also conveniently forgetting that the vocal few on these forums do not represent the whole community nor target demographics - it pains me to say but there's Steam forums (eugh), reddit and so on and while you (or me) might be of different opinions those matter to Larian as well (as they want to you know SELL the game - or are many of you going to work just for a pat on the back?).

So while you (or me) think combat for example could be more challenging in places, there's still a lot of people (even on these forums - look at help section) who struggle as is. Now should they cater to minority or make it enjoyable for everyone?

And you know as well as I do that some people here will never be satisfied no matter what they end up doing.

So for me the update read: here guys we tried to make the game playable for everyone, hope it works. We are very glad you're mostly enjoying the game and will continue to do our best. Have some cookies. Ok I'll admit shortcomings of the evil route should have been addressed somewhere in that context.
Yes - Larian have put out almost weekly updates so far - some people in this thread should just get a refund & wait for the finalised version because you can only complain for so long before people ignore you. Dont like & dont have anything constructive to give in the way of feedback...leave & save yourself the stress.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Yeah, this update pissed me off a bit.
Not for the lack of big changes in the patch (I already said more than once that minor hotfixes are all I'm expecting on the long term) but because the official post that accompanied the patch spent most of its length throwing useless factoids at us without even PRETENDING to acknowledge (let alone address) the most recurring points of criticism.

I feel exactly the same. It was the thing that led me to leave a negative review on Steam, because doing an EA release to use players as unpaid testers without intending to change anything philosophy-wise feels like a scam.
Originally Posted by Faulkner
Originally Posted by Tuco
Yeah, this update pissed me off a bit.
Not for the lack of big changes in the patch (I already said more than once that minor hotfixes are all I'm expecting on the long term) but because the official post that accompanied the patch spent most of its length throwing useless factoids at us without even PRETENDING to acknowledge (let alone address) the most recurring points of criticism.

I feel exactly the same. It was the thing that led me to leave a negative review on Steam, because doing an EA release to use players as unpaid testers without intending to change anything philosophy-wise feels like a scam.


Things that are easy to change: Bugs and graphical glitches.
Things that take more time to change: Game play and ingame features.

Honestly we shouldn't expect them to start changing the gameplay just yet. (Not to mention some people have way to high expectations to Larian just outright fixing everything they want).

Besides the game has been out for what? Three weeks? I think two patches that fixes glitches and bugs in that timespan is good.

"They didn't acknowledge our whining" is really all you guys are saying.
For Larian right now, <5e> gameplay seems just fine and dandy......
Priority to game braking bugs. Controller, console and multiplayer support.
Oh and Cinematic dialogue bugs calore, as I expected. Tons of resources going into this so dont hold your breach on other changes.
Oh well. Maybe in 6 months we might get some kind of update on actually gameplay criticism.
MAKE AUTO JUMP FOR <ANYONE CAN DO IT REGULAR JUMPS>!!!!!!!! This is so annoying.
"THANK YOU
Greetings Adventurer,
Thank you for joining us in Early Access. Thank you for your feedback! It'll be read by the team.

We appreciate you taking the time to leave feedback to help create a better game for everyone to enjoy.

If by chance you've left a bug report, please either use the Help button on the Launcher, or use this link directly:
https://larian.com/support/baldur-s-gate-3#modal
Thank you for your support during Early Access and we look forward to hearing more of your feedback."

This is what they emial you when you send them Feedback. Notice it is not just bug reports...

Seems like Larian wanted more than just bug reports!
Originally Posted by Faulkner

I feel exactly the same. It was the thing that led me to leave a negative review on Steam, because doing an EA release to use players as unpaid testers without intending to change anything philosophy-wise feels like a scam.


Being unpaid testers is exactly what we signed up for, and it’s ridiculous at this stage to say they don’t intend to change anything. EA isn’t a process with a turn around of a few weeks, it’s likely to be at least a year.

Hitting bugs and making the game more stable is an obvious place to start. I gave up playing not far into the game due to constant crashes, and frankly I wouldn’t mind having another go (haven’t tried the latest patch yet though).

Even before EA we saw two major changes based on reactions to gameplay streams- initiative systems and ditching the past tense dialogue choices.

There will be other changes, but it will take time for Larian to decide what to change and how to change them. Not everything people ask for will be changed, of course. Probably nowhere near.
People have a right to be dissapointed in the turn around times of feedback to acknowledhement ratio.
I just think there are equally a vocal minority who are going overboard, or whose expectations are off the chart in to how this should run. Larian do not have SLA agreements with us, we signed up for the EA to do more than help a studio out. We were oversold NOTHING in return. No promise to address, or acknowledge or fix anything based upon what we uncovered and posted was in the EULA agreement of EA.. Now of course, Larian upfront said they would most certainly look into doing those things and yes, I am sure they would like to be more upfront about what has been uncovered. I think we as fans have a respnsibility to provide constructive feedback on the game and on communication, but equally to be respectful of the current market/working situation and the fact that clearly Larian were overwhelmed with EA sales and feedback. And yes, you signed up for EA because you are fan, because if you are a customer, then you should have read what was on the box and waited for full release.

I've seen a few examples float around here, including Star Cititzen, the most over promised underdelivered game possibly ever, at least until recently. I was there from day one and I can promise you community updates took a fair few weeks to get off the ground. They essentially took the money and built a whole new company and then got to work. Yeah it looks pretty good noy and they still aren't finished, so if that's the standard, I think we can cut Larian a few more weeks.

I do no know of a single game (though there most probably were examples), that went EA or had piad ALpha/Beta's that adressed the biggest concerns so quickly. It is ALWAYS bug fixes first, get the game in its state as playable as possible, soak up the feedback, wait for the smoke to clear and then make a sound judgement call.

But we are going round in circles and I am part of that. So why not all agree that we hope Larian address the big concerns, mention them, acknowledge etc... and let us keep from throwing the baby out with the bath water every time a minor community update comes out about dog petting, that my X hours of playing and feedback was not worthy of recognition.
A few days ago i made a post titled "isn't this a bit too broken?" because even for an early access release, especially since they're asking full price for it, it was too unstable, buggy and unfinished. For this reason i'm not surprised by this update. Before thinking of changing game mechanics and taking feedback into consideration they have to fix A TON of stuff. The game was already delayed and this is proving they should have waited even more.
Originally Posted by Albi
A few days ago i made a post titled "isn't this a bit too broken?" because even for an early access release, especially since they're asking full price for it, it was too unstable, buggy and unfinished at launch. For this reason i'm not surprised by this update. Before thinking of changing game mechanics and taking feedback into consideration they have to fix A TON of stuff. The game was already delayed and this is proving they should have waited even more.

Yeah that's standard.... to be fair the criticism is not so much that the issues haven't been fixed, it's that the community updates so far haven't even acknowledged the existence of said topics. Some think that's unreasonable, others like me thinks it's normal at this early stage.
The game was never "delayed" because it never had an official release date to begin with.
And no, I don't think it's "too broken even for an EA". I have no idea to what alleged standard that comparison would be based on, to begin with.
If anything I remember spending my first hours with the game surprised by how far ahead it was already compared to when DOS 2 entered EA (most of the voice over is already in place, for a start).

I also find any claim that "before addressing core mechanical issues there are bugs to fix" extremely questionable. I'd argue that getting the foundations right should be a priority over any degree of polishing, especially if you don't fancy the idea of having to redo a lot of work twice as you introduce new systems.
Originally Posted by Riandor

Yeah that's standard.... to be fair the criticism is not so much that the issues haven't been fixed, it's that the community updates so far haven't even acknowledged the existence of said topics. Some think that's unreasonable, others like me thinks it's normal at this early stage.

I agree to a certain extent. For me it's not "normal" because people paid full price for it and something more was to be expected. Not in terms of features but in terms of polish. It's up to interpretation and sensibility clearly, some people including Larian felt it was good enough and i don't think it is. I'd never have the audacity to ask full price for a game in such early state.
Originally Posted by Albi
Originally Posted by Riandor

Yeah that's standard.... to be fair the criticism is not so much that the issues haven't been fixed, it's that the community updates so far haven't even acknowledged the existence of said topics. Some think that's unreasonable, others like me thinks it's normal at this early stage.

I agree to a certain extent. For me it's not "normal" because people paid full price for it and something more was to be expected. Not in terms of features but in terms of polish. It's up to interpretation and sensibility clearly, some people including Larian felt it was good enough and i don't think it is. I'd never have the audacity to ask full price for a game in such early state.

But Larian stated up front about the price. We should have all known what we were getting into.

As for Tuco's point about bugs over core... fixing graphical crashes to ensure that people can play IS more important that party member size and movement. In essence, that is CORE and what we want is the flavour on top and you know that you and I have similar views and wish lists.
People "paid full price for it" because what they are buying is a full game.

What they have now is not a full game and not what they paid for. What they have now is preferential access to an incomplete build of a game still in full development.
Which is where the "early" part of "early access" comes from.

Originally Posted by Riandor

As for Tuco's point about bugs over core... fixing graphical crashes to ensure that people can play IS more important that party member size and movement. In essence, that is CORE and what we want is the flavour on top and you know that you and I have similar views and wish lists.

I never experienced a single client crash so far, for what it matters.
Yeah it is very much EARLY Early Access, but actually they stated up front EA would only ever be Act1, witht he promise of the full game at 1.0 release.
So even with the core mechanics fixed and polish and classes etc... we won't have the full game at all in EA, that's what I paid for.
Originally Posted by Tuco
The game was never "delayed" because it never had an official release date to begin with.
And no, I don't think it's "too broken even for an EA". I have no idea to what alleged standard that comparison would be based on, to begin with.
If anything I remember spending my first hours with the game surprised by how far ahead it was already compared to when DOS 2 entered EA (most of the voice over is already in place, for a start).

I also find any claim that "before addressing core mechanical issues there are bugs to fix" extremely questionable. I'd argue that getting the foundations right should be a priority over any degree of polishing, especially if you don't fancy the idea of having to redo a lot of work twice as you introduce new systems.
It was delayed by a week, the game is out right now, it's available, it's on sale, don't be naive about it. I've played Grounded and the difference compared to this in terms of polish is mind-boggling, sometimes it didn't even feel like a game in early access. And fixing bugs before game mechanics is clearly a priority, especially when people couldn't even play the game for 5 minutes without running into something broken.
Originally Posted by Tuco
People "paid full price for it" because what they are buying is a full game.

What they have now is not a full game and not what they paid for. What they have now is preferential access to an incomplete build of a game still in full development.
Which is where the "early" part of "early access" comes from.

Originally Posted by Riandor

As for Tuco's point about bugs over core... fixing graphical crashes to ensure that people can play IS more important that party member size and movement. In essence, that is CORE and what we want is the flavour on top and you know that you and I have similar views and wish lists.

I never experienced a single client crash so far, for what it matters.


I have experienced all of 2 in 40 odd hours of playing, hardly an issue for me either, but there are those who struggle with it, so I very much believe that should be priority 1 and what we want priority 2.

Actually Albi it was "delayed" longer than that because origincally they said August, then it slipped by a month to September, then to October, but it doesn't really matter.
Originally Posted by Riandor
Yeah it is very much EARLY Early Access
As I said, it feels almost like a final product compared to how DOS 2 was at the beginning of its EA.
Technical issues are not a concern, bug fixing should not be anyone's genuine concern, more polish rounding up the rough edges will come 100% and I see absolutely no use in pretending otherwise.

What worries me is what they are going to do in terms of core design. How the game will play, if they will ever address some of the shortcoming introduced by their mechanical changes*, the inadequacies of the UI.
Not the level of embellishment that they will add on top, which is pretty much a given.


* frankly I'm not even in the group that worries particularly about "sticking with 5th ed. no matter what". The problem I have with some gameplay loops and potential exploits is that they are goofy and nonsensical, not that they are not "true to to the source".
Originally Posted by Riandor
Yeah it is very much EARLY Early Access, but actually they stated up front EA would only ever be Act1, witht he promise of the full game at 1.0 release.
So even with the core mechanics fixed and polish and classes etc... we won't have the full game at all in EA, that's what I paid for.


Not really. This is already an early beta to be honest.
The mechanics and system already stands, at least I do not see that Larian has the intention to change anything like removing D:OS influences and such, and all that is left is bugfixes and adding more content.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Riandor
Yeah it is very much EARLY Early Access
As I said, it feels almost like a final product compared to how DOS 2 was at the beginning of its EA.
Technical issues are not a concern, bug fixing should not be anyone's genuine concern, more polish rounding up the rough edges will come 100% and I see absolutely no use in pretending otherwise.

What worries me is what they are going to do in terms of core design. How the game will play, if they will ever address some of the shortcoming introduced by their mechanical changes*, the inadequacies of the UI.
Not the level of embellishment that they will add on top, which is pretty much a given.


* frankly I'm not even in the group that worries particularly about "sticking with 5th ed. no matter what". The problem I have with some gameplay loops and potential exploits is that they are goofy and nonsensical, not that they are not "true to to the source".

Agree.


Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by Riandor
Yeah it is very much EARLY Early Access, but actually they stated up front EA would only ever be Act1, witht he promise of the full game at 1.0 release.
So even with the core mechanics fixed and polish and classes etc... we won't have the full game at all in EA, that's what I paid for.


Not really. This is already an early beta to be honest.
The mechanics and system already stands, at least I do not see that Larian has the intention to change anything like removing D:OS influences and such, and all that is left is bugfixes and adding more content.

Disagree.
We already saw just prior to release of EA changes based upon our feedback, notably the 3rd person narrative. There are supposedly 11 months and 1 week (give or take) until so called planned 1.0 release, no game stays in Beta that long!

That's not to say that I expect all of the main topic to be fixed, but that's not the argument here really, it's still about comms and acknowledging or not, what we as a community have given as feedback.
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by The Composer
The first few weeks have dominantly been about working to make sure that blockers are fixed first (crashes, saves corrupting or being unable to load, bugs that severely cripples some players' ability to play the game).

I suppose it's also important to point out that while Larian is a big group of people now, not all of them are working on Early Access. One portion works on maintenance, polish and implementing content to EA, while the rest works on actually finishing up the game. And not all of them are involved in writing community updates. In fact you'd count that on less than a hand. Then there's the nuance of corporation and communications, further complicated by Covid and different people working from home, all over the world.

So while processing feedback is fairly easy, I've collected about 80 pages from Discord and the feedback form from the game launcher has seen pages upon pages of feedback as well - Processing that, forwarding it and going through internal discussions, decisions, and then starting to map out what you may start talking about, is not something that's done in a week.

There's a lot more nuance to it than that, but I've tried my best to simplify the gist of it down to a few lines.

What I can tell you though, is that -so much feedback- have gone through the gates, that not only will just reading through it take time, but discussing it would take significantly longer. And only then can you start deciding on additions/changes - At least of what is based on player feedback.

Hopefully my ramblings are found worthwhile at least to some 🙈

Thank you for this post. I think a lot of us were looking for this type of comment from the Community Update and were disappointed when there wasn't one.


+1
I kinda agree. EA has no real "how far it should be" apart from being playable more or less stable. That it does. The less done a game is for EA the longer it will take till release and the greater the risk of losing customers. We'll see.

That they correct graphic bugs etc. atm kinda confuses me. Just this morning i read an article about the delay of cyberpunk2077. Something along: Games are highly complex structures and even graphic changes can have an impact on other systems etc.

Personally i think game mechanics should work before all else. After that you can go back to fixing graphics etc. But maybe they attack it from another angle. I am not enough of a programmer to give a valid evaluation. Beeing an engineer i'd say make the car run before you paint it smile
Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
I kinda agree. EA has no real "how far it should be" apart from being playable more or less stable. That it does. The less done a game is for EA the longer it will take till release and the greater the risk of losing customers. We'll see.

That they correct graphic bugs etc. atm kinda confuses me. Just this morning i read an article about the delay of cyberpunk2077. Something along: Games are highly complex structures and even graphic changes can have an impact on other systems etc.

Personally i think game mechanics should work before all else. After that you can go back to fixing graphics etc. But maybe they attack it from another angle. I am not enough of a programmer to give a valid evaluation. Beeing an engineer i'd say make the car run before you paint it smile


Programming for me is like making a sandwich. You can taste the ham and sugar separately and figure out it tastes well. Then you decide to put the two together. And you discover the taste of sweet ham. A taste you are to never forget anymore. A taste you didn't want to ever discover.
Originally Posted by Argonaut
@Vhaldez

I backed DivOS and DivOS2. They doubled back on promises that where bought and paid for and ignored community feedback even by people who had paid a premium for that privilege. It wasn't just DivOS2 EA. I genuinely do not understand how people can still defend Larian in this day and age.

Originally Posted by Argonaut
Of course they aren't.

They didn't listen during DivOS development and they didn't listen during DivOS2 development. This is the age of social media and they could release a statement that would placate everyone within a few seconds. Most companies have PR specifically to do this and are still duplicitous. They know this will sell like DivOS and DivOS2 and they've already cashed in on BG3 pretty hard with a legal caveat in case they decide to never finish it.


I feel like the two of you failed to remember that, and please correct me if I'm wrong, literally a couple months before launch, they decided to do voiceovers for the entire game despite them saying that they weren't going to do it (Due to both budget and time constraints).
They went ahead and did it anyway because enough people asked for it and told them directly that the game would be significantly worse if it didn't have voice acting.
That's a massive undertaking for the short time they had left.
Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by Darth Rauko
So is Larian actually listening to feedback here?
NO


Yes.


This and The Composer's other post are the best posts in this thread.

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=719776
Originally Posted by vel
Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by Darth Rauko
So is Larian actually listening to feedback here?
NO


Yes.


This and The Composer's other post are the best posts in this thread.

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=719776


I missed this comment and I actually think it's exactly what I wanted to hear. It's a shame we had to whine so much for them to respond
I truly HOPE Larian listens well to the fanbase =)
Here is part of The Problem (tm) with The Composer's response:

We know different people work on different elements of the game. The person doing facial animations doesn't really care whether or not every fight involves overpowered surfaces. They can do their job regardless.

BUT, and this is why I think at least some of us are very worried, some of the changes the community is clamoring for will require core mechanical changes that will significantly alter how encounters and combat are designed. The longer people at Larian work with the current mechanics, the greater amount of work will be required to undertake to adjust if the fixes are made.

That is disheartening because it means the more time passes, the less likely we are to see substantial changes to the mechanics, due to the reasoning that 'changing this mechanic would require too much additional effort now'. This is why people are pushing so hard to get responses and changes incorporated, because the longer we wait the less likely the changes are to be implemented.
And for the record a year aint a hell of a lot of time. Not for a game as large as Larian claims this one is.
It looks like a miracle happened and Larian read this and other topics, watch their video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Originally Posted by Tuco
I never experienced a single client crash so far, for what it matters.

I've had a handful, but they were all in "busy" areas and I suspect my now quite old graphics card (R9 390X... it was cool once) doesn't help. And keyboard polling can be a bit slow so I've learnt to hold e.g. N or SPACE down until it responds.

[positive bit redacted as I sounded a bit fangirly]
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
It looks like a miracle happened and Larian read this and other topics, watch their video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

Looks like I can still be too hasty not to check the youtube URL before clicking
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
It looks like a miracle happened and Larian read this and other topics, watch their video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

I was going to complain about you not using my newly fixed video embedding but realised that there are spoilers therein.
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
It looks like a miracle happened and Larian read this and other topics, watch their video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

Stop it lol.
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
It looks like a miracle happened and Larian read this and other topics, watch their video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

Stop it lol.


Never gonna give this up
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
It looks like a miracle happened and Larian read this and other topics, watch their video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

Stop it lol.


Never gonna give this up



Wildly off-topic, his appearance where Grohl saw him at a concert and said "dude want to do a song with us" and pulled him, no warning, into a concert is amazing
https://youtu.be/IdkCEioCp24

and his choir appearance was awesome

https://youtu.be/dJRsWJqDjFE

legit good singer, I love that guy
Originally Posted by Orbax
legit good singer, I love that guy

I hate to admit that I really disliked that song when it first charted, but yeah, he's a great singer and a genuinely nice guy too. He's taken all this in really good humour.
Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by Orbax
legit good singer, I love that guy

I hate to admit that I really disliked that song when it first charted, but yeah, he's a great singer and a genuinely nice guy too. He's taken all this in really good humour.

+1

Same lol.
Larian is not looking at this forum. They are on Reddit gathering feedback

Meanwhile in today’s Reddit trending topics

“I made a Shadowheart salad-fingers cosplay, I hope you enjoy!“

Farewell smile
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Larian is not looking at this forum. They are on Reddit gathering feedback

Meanwhile in today’s Reddit trending topics

“I made a Shadowheart salad-fingers cosplay, I hope you enjoy!“

Farewell smile


[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by Abits
Originally Posted by vel
Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by Darth Rauko
So is Larian actually listening to feedback here?
NO


Yes.


This and The Composer's other post are the best posts in this thread.

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=719776


I missed this comment and I actually think it's exactly what I wanted to hear. It's a shame we had to whine so much for them to respond

Ironically that tells me that my predictions are somewhat realistic.

Quick lesson in software development: it becomes more and more expensive to fix issues the longer the project is progressing. This doesn't just mean money, it also means time, effort and resources. So if it takes them lets say a month to arrive at the conclusion that "the player base is unhappy with the current implementation of the core mechanics and its for XYZ reasons" development of new encounters, maps, mechanics, balancing you get the idea would have already progressed based on the old assumptions to be true. So if they then decide to change the core mechanics that means a significant rework of essentially everything they have created up until that point and that frankly seems not very realistic within one year.
Two things that would hurt literally nobody and would only stand to broaden Larian's audience with BG3 are as follows:

1. The dice-roll minigame when selecting certain dialogue options should be entirely optional. If toggled off in the menu, should be replaced with the same non-intrusive environmental dice roll, with a short sound effect to at least signify your character made a dice roll. Many share the opinion that this minigame is monotonous, mind-numbing, gimmicky and intrusive. Alternatively, there are people who love it. Which is why it should be OPTIONAL. Personally I can't stand it any more and it's lost its novelty after like the first 5 times. And once again, this hurts literally nobody and only gives Larian a chance to gain something - more players, and more engaged and happy players who are less frustrated. Less Save&Exits. More hours invested.

2. The previous issue leads me to this one. Perhaps I just haven't figured out how to do this, but nothing I've tried has worked, even straight up mashing the keyboard... I can't even find a keybind option to set to let me do this - but clicking anywhere on screen during a dialogue cutscene should literally just skip to the next line, with NO time-consuming transition or anything. Plenty of people scum-save, and if I've heard the same dialogue 10 or 15 times already, I don't have any desire to waste any more of my life away being forced to watch it any more. I can't tell you how many times I've just quit playing because I get sick of trying to get through a conversation after a couple of failed dice roll gimmicks that don't align with my playthrough agenda for that character.

The purpose of digitalizing the original saga was to remove some real life aspects of DMing a game that a lot of videogamers find tedious and jarring, both of these included. This is especially the case with players who prefer a single player experience.

I will reiterate that enabling us the OPTION to decide for ourselves whether we want to play the dice roll minigame hurts NOBODY, and only stands to allow Larian to gain. I will also reiterate that it also hurts nobody to let us simply click through redundant dialogue scenes if we wish. To argue against giving us these options makes it obvious you will swallow any pill Larian gives you, and I personally find it distasteful to have spent $60 on an EA that forces things on players that don't affect anybody else but that player should options not be given to avoid them.

I could also go on and on about broken lore, too many European accents (granted Larian is a Euro company but the saga is as American as it gets) but I'll leave it as these two major issues which absolutely need a change.
I agree with ABSOfficial

I think Larian should give the possibility for infinite re-roll. Why you ask ?
Here is why.

When I talked about the bad-feeling I get from the roll-dice, LOT of gamers said "just reload if you're unhappy".

So for my second game, this is what I did. I reload.
For an example, yesterday night I reloaded exactly 11 times my save just to get a positive roll-dice.

FACT IS : it was not fun and it was a lot of time lost.
FACT IS : I don't feel like I have time to lost in video game. I loved them but my time is precious and spending 5-10 minutes loading the same save again and again is a terrible waste and decrease of fun.
FACT IS : I don't have (or I wont take) times to do a new game crossing my fingers, hoping to have a better reroll this time in all the game...

So I understand people who love the thrill of the roll-dice. At least, I get it.
But I think this people should also understand and get MY point of view.

And this is why I think Larian should add a button "infinite re-roll" for the gamers like me (and I know, I'm not alone).
So the players who want to live in one roll-dice, keep living with one roll-dice, and the players, like me, who want to live "fully" control and choose the story they live, could reroll (I even think I could find funny to see how many times I have to roll to win a persuasion test at 3 !).

I call it a compromise.

Sadly I have the feeling it's something hard to accept for Larian (and even some people here)...
Optimally, they could add these two modes:

1) Commit mode, where each roll and dialog choice is autosaved and cannot be reverted

2) Freedom mode, where you can attempt skill checks many times

Or integrate something along those lines to difficulty modes / hardcore mode. But their time is probably better spent on making the baseline experience as good as possible, then figure out how they want to adjust difficulty settings.
I don't understand infinite re-roll?!
In essence you are saying you want to succeed any check you make in conversations? Or Just in gerneral? Why? Why is "failure" such a bad thing? There are usually other methods of getting round said failure (unless a fight ensues) and trying again later (like with character conversations).

But ok, let's say that's your point of view and all views are equal, then I don't think infinite re-roll is the way forward UNLESS you want to be able to select when you fail and when you don't, in which case in an easy option or optional selection box, yeah, you could add infinite re-roll points, I forget their name, the ones you can earn. Otherwise infinite re-roll is a waste of animation time, you could just remove the die and have auto-succeed.

I personally would rather more nuances to "failure", I want to charm Shadowheart but she rebuffs me now, but later on I do something heroic or evil that opens her eyes and she initiates a conversation recognising that she was wrong before. Black & White Suceed / Failure sucks. Sometimes it has to happen, I mean if you fail a last ditch intimidation roll and a fight ensues and someone dies, then that's that.

EDIT: This topic now seems to have it's own thread here: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=721465#Post721465
Reading through this thread, the one phrase that keeps popping into my head is "massive sense of over-entitlement". Seriously, you sound as tbough you think that 100% of your suggestions should have been both acknowledged & implemented within the 3 weeks that Early Access has been available. Like I said, over-entitled much? It might surprise you to know that you're all just a tiny fraction of BG3's total player base. It might also surprise you to realise that Larian is under no obligation to implement your suggestions in a time-frams that suits you. For all you know, tbe fixes & improvements in the latest patch might well have been stuff they had been working on since before EA started.
Anyway, the impression I get is that you're all pretty clueless about how game development actually works.....
Originally Posted by denhonator
Optimally, they could add these two modes:

1) Commit mode, where each roll and dialog choice is autosaved and cannot be reverted

2) Freedom mode, where you can attempt skill checks many times

Or integrate something along those lines to difficulty modes / hardcore mode. But their time is probably better spent on making the baseline experience as good as possible, then figure out how they want to adjust difficulty settings.


Good Idea.....an Ironman mode, basically. That would be a great addition.
Originally Posted by CrestOfArtorias

Quick lesson in software development: it becomes more and more expensive to not fix issues the longer the project is progressing.


FTFY
Originally Posted by Riandor
I personally would rather more nuances to "failure", I want to charm Shadowheart but she rebuffs me now, but later on I do something heroic or evil that opens her eyes and she initiates a conversation recognising that she was wrong before. Black & White Suceed / Failure sucks. Sometimes it has to happen, I mean if you fail a last ditch intimidation roll and a fight ensues and someone dies, then that's that.


There is actually a good example of this in her romance scene. You can ask her to reveal something about herself, fail the roll, then have it be a mildly awkward moment as she teases you slightly for prying.

And then there's the scene when you ask her about her Sharran worship and fail that roll.

"I sAiD nOt fOr dIsCuSsIoN!!!!!!!!"
I know its early days but it sure doesn't feel like they are listening.. Time will tell i guess.. They have all our money so we are in it either way.
I hope they listen. Solasta did absolutely great job so far (It's EA) in getting 5e rules from book to game and it's working mostly great. So Larian has no excuse with "ooow, this rules are not easy to put in game". Yeah, no.

I would like to at least see feedback that they actually read and listen to feedback.
Probably not.
Originally Posted by Benny89
I hope they listen. Solasta did absolutely great job so far (It's EA) in getting 5e rules from book to game and it's working mostly great. So Larian has no excuse with "ooow, this rules are not easy to put in game". Yeah, no.

I would like to at least see feedback that they actually read and listen to feedback.


+1
Got Solasta as well, and outside a few things, that game feels very close to 5e and they are limited to SRD.
Originally Posted by MarcHicks
Reading through this thread, the one phrase that keeps popping into my head is "massive sense of over-entitlement". Seriously, you sound as tbough you think that 100% of your suggestions should have been both acknowledged & implemented within the 3 weeks that Early Access has been available. Like I said, over-entitled much? It might surprise you to know that you're all just a tiny fraction of BG3's total player base. It might also surprise you to realise that Larian is under no obligation to implement your suggestions in a time-frams that suits you. For all you know, tbe fixes & improvements in the latest patch might well have been stuff they had been working on since before EA started.
Anyway, the impression I get is that you're all pretty clueless about how game development actually works.....


Nobody is clueless here, and it just happens a lot of us have played countless other games (including BG1 & BG2) which have had much more faithful adaptions to the actual D&D rules.

And Solasta is a great example, since it's an EA that came out right after BG3 using D&D 5E rules (although limited to SRD).

And you know what is amazing - I pointed out that Green Mages couldn't learn from scrolls which are in the green mage spell list, and guess what? They fixed it in the first patch.

A friend of mine also commented that heavy armor was still considering Dex modifier (something that is actually right in BG3) and guess what? They also fixed it in the first patch. Plus a bunch of other fixes related to the rules. THAT is listening to feedback and trying to move in the right direction.

Solasta is not the only example. Pathfinder: Kingmaker started out with a LOT of bugs and mistakes, but you could see from the beginning that they were trying to be as faithful as possible and nowadays it's a nearly perfect game that goes by the Pathfinder rules.

I mean, we also must not forget about the legacy. BG1 and BG2 were also very faithful - as much as a real time-based game based on D&D could be. Same with NWN.

Anyways, hopefully they will hear us at some point. I wish more people spoke out in social media (such as Twitter) instead of just this forum. Most of Larian's Twitter responses are endless praises, and stuff about romance & relationships.

D&D players are not a tiny fraction of BG3 player base. See how many Twitch views Critical Role gets for example. Most of them just don't voice out their opinions/criticism as much.
Employees - writers and developers, owners, investors Larian Studio of course read this forum in their free time. They are all people too, just like us, it would be very strange if they did not watch the forum discussing their work.


Technical problems and bugs go to the developers and they are solved very quickly.
I am 100% sure that writers who write specific characters monitor ALL topics and feedback about these characters and take notes.
Writers who write quests monitor all discussions of their quests.

Another question is that they have no right to answer so as not to draw attention to something, or not to give spoilers. (NDA)
Plus an important point - how they discuss it within the team, who makes decisions (complicated bureaucracy), what feedback is accepted and what is not, and so on. It takes much less time to collect statistics or fix minor bugs than if you need to change something in gameplay or quests.

If the next community update is devoted to the problems of "Evil Root", it means that we are doing everything right and our feedback is important to them.
If not, this can only be explained by bureaucracy and corporate culture.
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Employees - writers and developers, owners, investors Larian Studio of course read this forum in their free time. They are all people too, just like us, it would be very strange if they did not watch the forum discussing their work.


Technical problems and bugs go to the developers and they are solved very quickly.
I am 100% sure that writers who write specific characters monitor ALL topics and feedback about these characters and take notes.
Writers who write quests monitor all discussions of their quests.

Another question is that they have no right to answer so as not to draw attention to something, or not to give spoilers. (NDA)
Plus an important point - how they discuss it within the team, who makes decisions (complicated bureaucracy), what feedback is accepted and what is not, and so on. It takes much less time to collect statistics or fix minor bugs than if you need to change something in gameplay or quests.

If the next community update is devoted to the problems of "Evil Root", it means that we are doing everything right and our feedback is important to them.
If not, this can only be explained by bureaucracy and corporate culture.

What about the good characters and good route, you know the non edgy customers are wanting.
The evil path, if done well, would not be the "edgy" path, simply an alternate path. As for the good path, having the knock out ability, which I made a thread about, actually be a viable option for fights and quests could be a good improvement for that one. That said, is this thread not a straight forward question that has been answered?
Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by Darth Rauko
So is Larian actually listening to feedback here?
NO


Yes.

Listening maybe.. doing not so much.
Originally Posted by Tequilaman
Originally Posted by MarcHicks
Reading through this thread, the one phrase that keeps popping into my head is "massive sense of over-entitlement". Seriously, you sound as tbough you think that 100% of your suggestions should have been both acknowledged & implemented within the 3 weeks that Early Access has been available. Like I said, over-entitled much? It might surprise you to know that you're all just a tiny fraction of BG3's total player base. It might also surprise you to realise that Larian is under no obligation to implement your suggestions in a time-frams that suits you. For all you know, tbe fixes & improvements in the latest patch might well have been stuff they had been working on since before EA started.
Anyway, the impression I get is that you're all pretty clueless about how game development actually works.....


Nobody is clueless here, and it just happens a lot of us have played countless other games (including BG1 & BG2) which have had much more faithful adaptions to the actual D&D rules.

And Solasta is a great example, since it's an EA that came out right after BG3 using D&D 5E rules (although limited to SRD).

And you know what is amazing - I pointed out that Green Mages couldn't learn from scrolls which are in the green mage spell list, and guess what? They fixed it in the first patch.

A friend of mine also commented that heavy armor was still considering Dex modifier (something that is actually right in BG3) and guess what? They also fixed it in the first patch. Plus a bunch of other fixes related to the rules. THAT is listening to feedback and trying to move in the right direction.

Solasta is not the only example. Pathfinder: Kingmaker started out with a LOT of bugs and mistakes, but you could see from the beginning that they were trying to be as faithful as possible and nowadays it's a nearly perfect game that goes by the Pathfinder rules.

I mean, we also must not forget about the legacy. BG1 and BG2 were also very faithful - as much as a real time-based game based on D&D could be. Same with NWN.

Anyways, hopefully they will hear us at some point. I wish more people spoke out in social media (such as Twitter) instead of just this forum. Most of Larian's Twitter responses are endless praises, and stuff about romance & relationships.

D&D players are not a tiny fraction of BG3 player base. See how many Twitch views Critical Role gets for example. Most of them just don't voice out their opinions/criticism as much.


Dear god they are listening to twitter muppets my expectations for the game just took a meteoric nosedive. Unfortunately, for me and many others, if they are doing twitter feedback there is no way to communicate. I mean a two line forum post wouldn't be too much to ask for right? Explains why they jumped on the romance crap nobody but a twitter parrot would give a shit about.

If you are a paying customer there is nothing entitled about offering honest feedback, this isnt a charity donation. There is nothing wrong with expectations that ask Larian to be faithful to the original series and D&D. That being said, Larian have been handed the BG legacy if they choose to make it for their loyal DOS fans their isn't anything anyone can do if they have the DOS fanbase to fanboi the feedback. Can't even get a refund, long gone are the days EA playtesting was free now you get to pay for the honor of doing their job for them.
Originally Posted by Tequilaman
So far, going by the recent patch seems they are more worried about petting the dog and correcting cinematics and visual stuff.

There has been no mention of them actually trying to get the rules right, given that it's a D&D 5E and there are many mistakes (ie: mages learning cleric spells from scrolls, bonus action jumping to disengage + all the stuff in this forum.....).

I just finished Solasta EA and I'm surprised at how many things they got right for a 16-man team! I mean, I can even use the dodge action, reaction when something attacks me or even counterspell, ready actions....all the basics mostly works fine too.

So how come many things be done right by a much smaller team? But not by Larian.

I don't really know if Larian is listening.

What do you think?


Solasta? You mean that Solasta with whole 4 linear maps ingame, NWN2 level graphics and linear story with forgettable cast and no companions at all?


I think, they do what they need to do - fix bugs in EA while people are still around to report them. They will do mechanical changes, add classes, feats and more at a later stage. This EA will last good year and a half, there is a lot of time for everything.
Solasta is really awesome but obviously things have to be replaced in context. They are 17 working on it, they don't have the full D&D5 licence and no FR. They don't have Larian's money and expertise...

Anyway it's a very good game and if you don't consider the huge technical problems, combats are way closer to D&D than BG3 and they aren't slower, annoying or too easy for a normal game mode.

I think BG3 could become a 20/20 if Larian trusted D&D a little bit more. Their custom rules are awesome but they actually altered the experience way too much. I think that with a lot of adjustement, BG3 has the potiential to become a real new legend for decades.
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Solasta is really awesome but obviously things have to be replaced in context. They are 17 working on it, they don't have the full D&D5 licence and no FR. They don't have Larian's money and expertise...

Anyway it's a very good game and if you don't consider the huge technical problems, combats are way closer to D&D than BG3 and they aren't slower, annoying or too easy for a normal game mode.

I think BG3 could become a 20/20 if Larian trusted D&D a little bit more. Their custom rules are awesome but they actually altered the experience way too much. I think that with a lot of adjustement, BG3 has the potiential to become a real new legend for decades.

That is exactly how I feel man... I truly believe we have a game of the year contender. With the right fixes and gamemaster mode it could easily rival never winter nights in replay value. That game still has full servers.
Solasta just posted an update for what they're planning to do in coming updates. The specifics of it are unimportant, but what is important is that they acknowledge the major concerns which the players are talking about the most.

Quote
The most common complaint of our Early Access version has since switched to our Light System which we've explained more than a year ago in an article... and not without good reasons. We've been reading through your messages and suggestions, and we find ourselves agreeing on quite a few of them. The largest issues being:

  • We've been saying that Solasta is faithful to the 5e Tabletop ruleset, but we've made changes regarding the lighting rules
  • This design change wasn't clearly explained in-game, leading many people to be disappointed after expecting their Darkvision characters to be able to see without light
  • Fighting in dark environments is frustrating due to often rolling with disadvantage, especially against enemies that like to stay at range


While we had our reasons to change the lighting rules originally (as stated in our article), we've come to appreciate how difficult it is for Tabletop players to adjust to that new set of rules - especially since everything else stays fairly close to the original Tabletop ruleset. So... we're going back to the drawing board to make it better! After all, that's what Early Access is for is it not? Gather feedback from the players, keep what people love and rework what people find problematic.


That was simple, wasn't it? An acknowledgement of the issues players have raised, an agreement that the players have several valid points, and a commitment to make improvements. That's what was missing from Larian's Update #10 for BG 3. If players could see that, then they wouldn't feel so much like they were shouting into the void, and this thread wouldn't exist.
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Solasta? You mean that Solasta with whole 4 linear maps ingame, NWN2 level graphics and linear story with forgettable cast and no companions at all?


Such a hate for Solasta. Mechanically, Solasta is far superior than current BG3. They are not in the same league of comparison in other aspects as expected.

Quote
The most common complaint of our Early Access version has since switched to our Light System which we've explained more than a year ago in an article... and not without good reasons. We've been reading through your messages and suggestions, and we find ourselves agreeing on quite a few of them. The largest issues being:

  • We've been saying that Solasta is faithful to the 5e Tabletop ruleset, but we've made changes regarding the lighting rules
  • This design change wasn't clearly explained in-game, leading many people to be disappointed after expecting their Darkvision characters to be able to see without light
  • Fighting in dark environments is frustrating due to often rolling with disadvantage, especially against enemies that like to stay at range


While we had our reasons to change the lighting rules originally (as stated in our article), we've come to appreciate how difficult it is for Tabletop players to adjust to that new set of rules - especially since everything else stays fairly close to the original Tabletop ruleset. So... we're going back to the drawing board to make it better! After all, that's what Early Access is for is it not? Gather feedback from the players, keep what people love and rework what people find problematic.


That is really impressive.
We are not comparing apples to apples here, in budget, technology, developers... etc. Still somehow Solasta has been able to (IMO) create a Gameplay and Combat system that is mechanically and tactically better than Larian's BG3:

- In depth showing of the dice, attack damage, saves, abilities)
- Clear and understandable recap of rolls (advantage, disadvantage, feats, abilities, lighting, etc. etc.)
- Easy to split PCs
- Available Options based on remaining action economy
- Long rests are tied to Time and Supplies, cannot be spammed
- Short Rests now have a use, hit dice and clear what is regained during (Channel Divinity, Spells slots, etc.)
- Switching weapons requires economy and can only be done once a turn minimizing abuse
- Ritual casting!
- Concentration warnings
- Dodge, Shove, Disengage, Stabilize, Ready, Reactions, Hide. All implemented as RAW.
- Proper advantage/disadvantage and cover. You can't get adv from standing on a small rock, or walking 180 degrees around a non flanked target!
- Creatures have expected AC, HP, Saves.
- No food abundance, Stabilize does not get people up to 1hp. This puts back the importance of health potions and healing again!
- There isn't fire, acid, ice, explosive barrels every 10 feet. Cantrips are back to their normal strength.

I really hope Larian is listening to feedback. Moreover I hope they are seeing what a gameplay and combat system with an actual identity looks like, while theirs is in limbo between DOS and DND.
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Solasta just posted an update for what they're planning to do in coming updates. The specifics of it are unimportant, but what is important is that they acknowledge the major concerns which the players are talking about the most.

Quote
The most common complaint of our Early Access version has since switched to our Light System which we've explained more than a year ago in an article... and not without good reasons. We've been reading through your messages and suggestions, and we find ourselves agreeing on quite a few of them. The largest issues being:

  • We've been saying that Solasta is faithful to the 5e Tabletop ruleset, but we've made changes regarding the lighting rules
  • This design change wasn't clearly explained in-game, leading many people to be disappointed after expecting their Darkvision characters to be able to see without light
  • Fighting in dark environments is frustrating due to often rolling with disadvantage, especially against enemies that like to stay at range


While we had our reasons to change the lighting rules originally (as stated in our article), we've come to appreciate how difficult it is for Tabletop players to adjust to that new set of rules - especially since everything else stays fairly close to the original Tabletop ruleset. So... we're going back to the drawing board to make it better! After all, that's what Early Access is for is it not? Gather feedback from the players, keep what people love and rework what people find problematic.


That was simple, wasn't it? An acknowledgement of the issues players have raised, an agreement that the players have several valid points, and a commitment to make improvements. That's what was missing from Larian's Update #10 for BG 3. If players could see that, then they wouldn't feel so much like they were shouting into the void, and this thread wouldn't exist.


Agree. I can make do without non-essentials and small talk, but exact steps and roadmap is a must, imo. And Solasta team is smaller!
Admittedly, sometimes more people having a vote in democracy=longer councils, but aren't Larian is a normal company with all roles set?
Would be very nice to have this post stickied and updated as new information from the team goes in:
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=719776#Post719776
Larian has 9999 times more feedback and data to comb through and try to absorb in an organized way than the Solasta devs do. Give them time.
The updates thus far have been dozens of crash and bug fixes. Of course that's going to take priority over balancing and rule changes. No one is going to care if Cantrips are different than the PHB version if the game crashes on startup.
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Larian has 9999 times more feedback and data to comb through and try to absorb in an organized way than the Solasta devs do. Give them time.


No one said they needed to provide an detailed description of the solution. The least which could have been done was acknowledging the feedback they've received.

The last update shared data on the number of people who pet the dog, and who romanced who, but didn't even acknowledge that they've read feedback on some of the other issues. 11 months isn't that long a time.
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Solasta just posted an update for what they're planning to do in coming updates. The specifics of it are unimportant, but what is important is that they acknowledge the major concerns which the players are talking about the most.

That was simple, wasn't it? An acknowledgement of the issues players have raised, an agreement that the players have several valid points, and a commitment to make improvements. That's what was missing from Larian's Update #10 for BG 3. If players could see that, then they wouldn't feel so much like they were shouting into the void, and this thread wouldn't exist.

That is a good update
-a long discussion about light: the changes and why they originally made them, the player response during EA, and an agreement to listen and look into other options based on that player feedback
-"inventory and shopping improvements, hand-picked from your suggestions"
-a roadmap of things to expect in the coming months

I, at least, am not expecting Larian to implement all (or any) of our changes in their next update. That's obviously expecting too much.
But an acknowledgement of our feedback (1 or 2 of the bigger things) and a rough roadmap would go a long way. Stabbey says it best: currently it feels like we're shouting into the void.
My feedback for Larian: throw us a bone. I want to be here. I want to help make the game better. Let me know that my/our feedback is doing something.

@Fisher: That's what "Launch Community Update" was for. And if they had done "Launch Update pt 2, pt 3, etc," that would have been fine. The problem was they put out a new Community Update, starting with "it's big patch time." Then spent most of it talking about (misleading) stats and ending with a conclusion that implied they had 0 understanding of a huge problem with the current evil playthrough, a problem that took up a decent amount of forum space and that they specifically asked us to test and provide feedback on.
Originally Posted by Fisher
The updates thus far have been dozens of crash and bug fixes. Of course that's going to take priority over balancing and rule changes. No one is going to care if Cantrips are different than the PHB version if the game crashes on startup.



I hope I'm wrong, but bug reports number after the latest patch just increased, not decreased. More problems have been caused than fixed after 27th October, and it's roughly two weeks now. Just saying.
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Larian has 9999 times more feedback and data to comb through and try to absorb in an organized way than the Solasta devs do. Give them time.


What an irony: if they won't say the safeword, even more feedback would come over time, even if the players report more of the same sometimes. Burying them in work even more.
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Larian has 9999 times more feedback and data to comb through and try to absorb in an organized way than the Solasta devs do. Give them time.

They aren't exactly supposed to address all of it, either.
Identifying a bunch (hell, let's say three) of the top recurring complaints and just stating how they are CONSIDERING moving about them would be greatly appreciated.

On a side note, we are more or less an hour away to learn if my baseless guess about the fact that we are getting a patch today turns out to be true.
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Solasta is really awesome but obviously things have to be replaced in context. They are 17 working on it, they don't have the full D&D5 licence and no FR. They don't have Larian's money and expertise...

Anyway it's a very good game and if you don't consider the huge technical problems, combats are way closer to D&D than BG3 and they aren't slower, annoying or too easy for a normal game mode.

I think BG3 could become a 20/20 if Larian trusted D&D a little bit more. Their custom rules are awesome but they actually altered the experience way too much. I think that with a lot of adjustement, BG3 has the potiential to become a real new legend for decades.



100% agree!!! I wish they would TRUST core DND rules more!!!!
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Solasta? You mean that Solasta with whole 4 linear maps ingame, NWN2 level graphics and linear story with forgettable cast and no companions at all?


Such a hate for Solasta. Mechanically, Solasta is far superior than current BG3. They are not in the same league of comparison in other aspects as expected.



While i liked Solasta i found the combat more fun in BG3, and i am betting many other players who dont play Tabletop feel the same, the issues so many Tabletop players have is because you are looking at a game you regularly play and enjoy
and you dont like to see any changes to it, but as someone who dosent play Tabletop and has played both games EA with no prior Opinions i found BG3 to be far more fun.
Sure they have a lot of things they should fix, many of 5E rules i have seen posted seem very logical and i am sure they will make adjustments.

And dont forget that for a team of 17 people it is very easy to have a sit down and decide on changes, Larian is 250-300 people, the structure is completely different the way decisions are made is far more complex and the scope of the game is far bigger any change might impact many other things we are not taking in to account but the devs do.
Listen.

You're not being paid to develop this game. There is an entire army of developers, managers, artists and what have you that want to press their own interests with this game. I was going in with an open mind, but I've quickly confirmed what is going on here. You just got to take a look at how the forum looks, it's old, outdated, forgotten really. Even if you have pin-point perfect feedback, where are they even supposed to look, all the sub-forums are catch-all bins with no specific seperation inside, you can't even find your own thread after one day because it gets swamped by all the other threads that are so rapidly created. I haven't seen any dev-team member post outside of their announcement threads, to me, if they were serious about taking in player feedback, they would have adressed all these things before the EA even started.

The only thing they are willing to take seems to be what is fed to the algo from each of our playthroughs, which is a handy statistic to have, but it ain't player feedback.
Larian team members do read these forums and note the points being made.
Originally Posted by jayn23
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Solasta? You mean that Solasta with whole 4 linear maps ingame, NWN2 level graphics and linear story with forgettable cast and no companions at all?


Such a hate for Solasta. Mechanically, Solasta is far superior than current BG3. They are not in the same league of comparison in other aspects as expected.



While i liked Solasta i found the combat more fun in BG3, and i am betting many other players who dont play Tabletop feel the same, the issues so many Tabletop players have is because you are looking at a game you regularly play and enjoy
and you dont like to see any changes to it, but as someone who dosent play Tabletop and has played both games EA with no prior Opinions i found BG3 to be far more fun.
Sure they have a lot of things they should fix, many of 5E rules i have seen posted seem very logical and i am sure they will make adjustments.

And dont forget that for a team of 17 people it is very easy to have a sit down and decide on changes, Larian is 250-300 people, the structure is completely different the way decisions are made is far more complex and the scope of the game is far bigger any change might impact many other things we are not taking in to account but the devs do.


Well, that’s a matter of acknowledging the feedbacks from the community and not to actually change it. We’re not expecting them to implement the DnD5e rules by the book, yet there are pain points spread all over this forum with actual arguments regarding balance issues - mainly in the combat pillar.

Compared to redesign the other pillars (social interaction & exploration) - combat is the less tricky one.

Also, I’m not following you regarding head-count comparison between both companies. Address the major complaints of a community should be easier in a larger team compared to a smaller one.
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid

Also, I’m not following you regarding head-count comparison between both companies. Address the major complaints of a community should be easier in a larger team compared to a smaller one.


Ill try to explain what i meant,
For small team like for Solasta there's is probably 1 or 2 combat/mechanics designers and they all probably work in the same office with the boss, so when they want to make a change they just go over to the office talk it over and that's it,

For a big company that has branches across multiple countries, my guess would be if a designer want to try something out he needs his boss to approve it who in turn needs another manager to approve, that manager will probably start looking at data form many different avenues and try to understand what would sell more in the end etc...
my point is even if they have seen the feedback and even if some combat designer feels that changes should be made its going to take some time until its approved by all the higher ups, and only after its approved would anyone talk about it in a community update. so lets just give them some time.

like i said many of the changes requested on the forum are really good and i am sure they will address it in time.
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Solasta? You mean that Solasta with whole 4 linear maps ingame, NWN2 level graphics and linear story with forgettable cast and no companions at all?


Such a hate for Solasta. Mechanically, Solasta is far superior than current BG3.


That's not hate, that's simply the reality. I bought Solasta, I played Solasta and it is what it is - right now it is literally 4 areas - 1 "city" and 3 linear, tunnel quest areas with super linear quests and NWN2 level graphics - a game from 2006, just a bit shinier spells.

It is exactly that, so I am not even sure what exactly you want me to glorify there. Story? Nothing to write home about - absolutely linear one path tunnel campaign. Characters and companions? You literally don't have any of note and there are simply no companions by definition.

Its only value is for RAW purists where they try to jump out of their skin to make it as close as they can to 5e core rules and in my personal opinion - the combat suffers for it. IMO, Solasta shows very well exactly why Larian did the changes they did with all these shitty reaction popups, smite popups and what not with your lowbie characters stiff as fuck with single action per turn and little more than that, except for odd minor utility spell or power.


Despite all the above, I believe that Solasta will be ok, given its 35 bucks price and first shot for that tiny studio. It will be a fair time burner for people like me who like turn based tactical combat games, but it's obvious it won't be even 1/3 of what BG3 will be and I'm being generous there.
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Solasta? You mean that Solasta with whole 4 linear maps ingame, NWN2 level graphics and linear story with forgettable cast and no companions at all?


Such a hate for Solasta. Mechanically, Solasta is far superior than current BG3.


That's not hate, that's simply the reality. I bought Solasta, I played Solasta and it is what it is - right now it is literally 4 areas - 1 "city" and 3 linear, tunnel quest areas with super linear quests and NWN2 level graphics - a game from 2006, just a bit shinier spells.

It is exactly that, so I am not even sure what exactly you want me to glorify there. Story? Nothing to write home about - absolutely linear one path tunnel campaign. Characters and companions? You literally don't have any of note and there are simply no companions by definition.

Its only value is for RAW purists where they try to jump out of their skin to make it as close as they can to 5e core rules and in my personal opinion - the combat suffers for it. IMO, Solasta shows very well exactly why Larian did the changes they did with all these shitty reaction popups, smite popups and what not with your lowbie characters stiff as fuck with single action per turn and little more than that, except for odd minor utility spell or power.

Thais is my new favourite comment on the forum
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Solasta? You mean that Solasta with whole 4 linear maps ingame, NWN2 level graphics and linear story with forgettable cast and no companions at all?


Such a hate for Solasta. Mechanically, Solasta is far superior than current BG3.


That's not hate, that's simply the reality. I bought Solasta, I played Solasta and it is what it is - right now it is literally 4 areas - 1 "city" and 3 linear, tunnel quest areas with super linear quests and NWN2 level graphics - a game from 2006, just a bit shinier spells.

It is exactly that, so I am not even sure what exactly you want me to glorify there. Story? Nothing to write home about - absolutely linear one path tunnel campaign. Characters and companions? You literally don't have any of note and there are simply no companions by definition.

Its only value is for RAW purists where they try to jump out of their skin to make it as close as they can to 5e core rules and in my personal opinion - the combat suffers for it. IMO, Solasta shows very well exactly why Larian did the changes they did with all these shitty reaction popups, smite popups and what not with your lowbie characters stiff as fuck with single action per turn and little more than that, except for odd minor utility spell or power.


Maybe look at this from a different angle: they made less content than Larian for now, and started updating their mechanics and giving their feedback for questions raised - earlier. We should look where both games would be 1 year from now.
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid


Well, that’s a matter of acknowledging the feedbacks from the community and not to actually change it. We’re not expecting them to implement the DnD5e rules by the book, yet there are pain points spread all over this forum with actual arguments regarding balance issues - mainly in the combat pillar.

Compared to redesign the other pillars (social interaction & exploration) - combat is the less tricky one.



This. Nailed it. Totally avoided the red herrings. (this forum needs a like button)

No one is asking no deviations from the book. No one is saying social and exploration sucks (in fact it's great). The criticism is about combat.
I don't think Larian's PR strategy here has been perfect (I think they can be more transparent), but to expect implementation or commitment to certain changes by this point is kind of nuts. We're only a month out of Early Access. For a project this huge, it makes sense that they'll need to take time to parse feedback, debate solutions, and test before committing to any changes.

You need at least a few weeks just to wait for a proper range of feedback to kick-in - you can't simply take week 1 reactions and start running with that as it will skew your response base.

Then you need time to parse through it all and figure out which feedback you actually agree with - as not all of it is universal. More so, a lot of "individual" feedback points affect a larger system as a whole and can't be implemented in isolation. This is on top of having a larger organizational structure that will require the proper time spent on getting internal buy-in to changes.

All of that needs to be done before they even do internal testing, nevermind put it in a public patch. The only thing that will piss people off who demand Change X and not getting it fast enough is if you give them X and then have to take it away later because it turns out it doesn't work with Y and Z.

Larian's biggest mistake IMO has been their PR communication during patch updates. Raving on and on about meaningless stats and puppy petting without even mentioning if they've been looking at mechanical feedback is a poor move as it gives off an impression of a distracted child. The "humorous", nonchalant tone used in those updates makes exacerbates this. They don't have to commit to any changes (since they probably don't know at this point), but just an acknowledgement will do wonders.
Originally Posted by Ellenhard

Maybe look at this from a different angle: they made less content than Larian for now, and started updating their mechanics and giving their feedback for questions raised - earlier. We should look where both games would be 1 year from now.


I look at it from a simple angle of expecting to see a good RPG game first and only then everything else second and quite frankly - that game barely qualifies as RPG, especially in 2020. Heck, it would barely qualify as RPG back in 2002 seeing NWN.

It is a faithful 5e combat simulator and simply nothing else. It's about as much RPG as Xcom is and heck at least in Xcom you sort of have illusion of different paths, here it's just one thing.
Originally Posted by Topgoon
I don't think Larian's PR strategy here has been perfect (I think they can be more transparent), but to expect implementation or commitment to certain changes by this point is kind of nuts. We're only a month out of Early Access. For a project this huge, it makes sense that they'll need to take time to parse feedback, debate solutions, and test before committing to any changes.

We (I) don't want implementation of or commitment to changes. We want confirmation that Larian realizes our feedbacks and problems exist, hopefully with a statement that they'll look into these and maybe change them.

Originally Posted by Topgoon
Larian's biggest mistake IMO has been their PR communication during patch updates. Raving on and on about meaningless stats and puppy petting without even mentioning if they've been looking at mechanical feedback is a poor move as it gives off an impression of a distracted child. The "humorous", nonchalant tone used in those updates makes exacerbates this. They don't have to commit to any changes (since they probably don't know at this point), but just an acknowledgement will do wonders.

100% agree.
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Originally Posted by Ellenhard

Maybe look at this from a different angle: they made less content than Larian for now, and started updating their mechanics and giving their feedback for questions raised - earlier. We should look where both games would be 1 year from now.


I look at it from a simple angle of expecting to see a good RPG game first and only then everything else second and quite frankly - that game barely qualifies as RPG, especially in 2020. Heck, it would barely qualify as RPG back in 2002 seeing NWN.

It is a faithful 5e combat simulator and simply nothing else. It's about as much RPG as Xcom is and heck at least in Xcom you sort of have illusion of different paths, here it's just one thing.


It's a bit too harsh, unnecessary: there is an interesting system which took place instead of character's alignment, and it is already better then what BG 3 shown us (for now) because it gives us a fixed outline of a role and background from the start in an RPG. Altruist/egoist/idealistic/practical.

There are hints of party banter, too, not fleshed out yet. And all party members make their rolls in any events, based on the best character.

Moreover, - while graphics of Solasta are understandably much weaker than BG 3, the clothes/armor in Solasta actually better styled, they fit better with an overall style than in BG 3, but that is of course just an opinion.
The thing about Larian is that they will make the game they want to make. Our feedback is the smallest part of their process. It was the same in DOS2. Yes, they made changes of one or two of the glaring issues people ranted about, but for the most part nothing changed except bugs and refinements based on heat maps.

Swen is stubborn, and he won't change his mind.

He created this project to show a wider audience "Larian's formula" of CRPG. They openly co-opted the BG name to do this.

That means DOS. That means puppy petting and cringe worthy companions and binary dialogue options and tons of barrels everywhere.

BG3 will never become the game D&D or BG fans expected.
Originally Posted by Topgoon
I don't think Larian's PR strategy here has been perfect (I think they can be more transparent), but to expect implementation or commitment to certain changes by this point is kind of nuts. We're only a month out of Early Access. For a project this huge, it makes sense that they'll need to take time to parse feedback, debate solutions, and test before committing to any changes.

You need at least a few weeks just to wait for a proper range of feedback to kick-in - you can't simply take week 1 reactions and start running with that as it will skew your response base.

Then you need time to parse through it all and figure out which feedback you actually agree with - as not all of it is universal. More so, a lot of "individual" feedback points affect a larger system as a whole and can't be implemented in isolation. This is on top of having a larger organizational structure that will require the proper time spent on getting internal buy-in to changes.

All of that needs to be done before they even do internal testing, nevermind put it in a public patch. The only thing that will piss people off who demand Change X and not getting it fast enough is if you give them X and then have to take it away later because it turns out it doesn't work with Y and Z.

Larian's biggest mistake IMO has been their PR communication during patch updates. Raving on and on about meaningless stats and puppy petting without even mentioning if they've been looking at mechanical feedback is a poor move as it gives off an impression of a distracted child. The "humorous", nonchalant tone used in those updates makes exacerbates this. They don't have to commit to any changes (since they probably don't know at this point), but just an acknowledgement will do wonders.




You said everything i was thinking but articulated so much better than me. So yes what he said
Originally Posted by tsundokugames
The thing about Larian is that they will make the game they want to make. Our feedback is the smallest part of their process. It was the same in DOS2. Yes, they made changes of one or two of the glaring issues people ranted about, but for the most part nothing changed except bugs and refinements based on heat maps.

Swen is stubborn, and he won't change his mind.

He created this project to show a wider audience "Larian's formula" of CRPG. They openly co-opted the BG name to do this.

That means DOS. That means puppy petting and cringe worthy companions and binary dialogue options and tons of barrels everywhere.

BG3 will never become the game D&D or BG fans expected.


There's a massive difference between building your own IP and making a game with a D&D licence that has a 3 in the title.

I would expect WotC to supervise their IP closely, but then again Sword Coast Legends got made.
Originally Posted by Gaidax
That's not hate, that's simply the reality. I bought Solasta, I played Solasta and it is what it is - right now it is literally 4 areas - 1 "city" and 3 linear, tunnel quest areas with super linear quests and NWN2 level graphics - a game from 2006, just a bit shinier spells.

It is exactly that, so I am not even sure what exactly you want me to glorify there. Story? Nothing to write home about - absolutely linear one path tunnel campaign. Characters and companions? You literally don't have any of note and there are simply no companions by definition.

Its only value is for RAW purists where they try to jump out of their skin to make it as close as they can to 5e core rules and in my personal opinion - the combat suffers for it. IMO, Solasta shows very well exactly why Larian did the changes they did with all these shitty reaction popups, smite popups and what not with your lowbie characters stiff as fuck with single action per turn and little more than that, except for odd minor utility spell or power.

Despite all the above, I believe that Solasta will be ok, given its 35 bucks price and first shot for that tiny studio. It will be a fair time burner for people like me who like turn based tactical combat games, but it's obvious it won't be even 1/3 of what BG3 will be and I'm being generous there.


It is obvious what Larian did better. BG3 is a far better game. But this is not the point. Tactical Adventures made a lot of good choices in their game design.

Mechanically: they were able to implement many things that Larian with 10x larger team, a AAA budget and record could not (so far).

Party management, auto-jump, day-night cycle, combat that flows better with more optimized AI, less over-the-top animations, better camera. And should not be the case.
Originally Posted by tsundokugames
The thing about Larian is that they will make the game they want to make. Our feedback is the smallest part of their process. It was the same in DOS2. Yes, they made changes of one or two of the glaring issues people ranted about, but for the most part nothing changed except bugs and refinements based on heat maps.

Swen is stubborn, and he won't change his mind.

He created this project to show a wider audience "Larian's formula" of CRPG. They openly co-opted the BG name to do this.

That means DOS. That means puppy petting and cringe worthy companions and binary dialogue options and tons of barrels everywhere.

BG3 will never become the game D&D or BG fans expected.


That’s what I feel regarding this whole thing related to feedback.

The pledge for the early access was all about “hop on dude! Let’s build this game together”. So far, seems that the most representative feedback gathered and mentioned by Swen in the latest interview was about a guy who missed 8 times in a row. For those skilled with statistics are you aware of the odds of missing 8 times in a row (50% hit rate)?

Transparency is the thing that a customer (and I’m speaking strictly about my impression) values the most.

If the pledge was “invest in our early access yet be aware that our ambition is to develop OUR game. So please give us a leap of faith” I’d still have bought the game nevertheless. The main difference is that currently I feel scammed.

Also, for those saying that Solasta feels a much worse game compared to BG3 as an argument to justify the lack of return of Larian regarding the early access clearly shows that did not understood the purpose of this post. TA shows more customer experience orientation in 1 month of early access than Larian since DOS1 till nowadays.
Maybe instead of leaving feedback to Larian we should direct it to WotC? Basically saying Larian is using the BG name and promise of D&D 5e to false advertise DOS3 to a wider audience. If Larian with their near 400 man team can't be arsed with a forum post once a week with an update then we should go to the licence holders.
I don't think WOTC has ANY say in how this game will be made.
From IGN article:

One of the more difficult elements of developing Baldur’s Gate 3 with player involvement is that there are numerous different ‘camps’ of people interested in the game. There’s Larian’s long-term fans, who are crying out for there to be more ‘surfaces’ in the game (a mechanic used in the Original Sin games to create dynamic fire, poison clouds, oil slicks, and more). Then there’s players of the D&D tabletop game, who’d rather have surfaces removed all together. And then there’s old-school Baldur’s Gate fans, who want the real-time combat of the BioWare original games back. There’s a lot of people pulling in a lot of directions.

“I can imagine that we will never manage to find the balance that will please everyone,” says Vincke. But, there is a (sort of) solution: “The game will be moddable eventually, so people will be able to make their mods. I expect multiple flavors of Baldur’s Gate 3 to come out of that. Over time there will be probably a flavor that will appeal hopefully to everybody.”

But as for the flavour that the Larian team will create themselves? It’s actually closer to the general consensus of what players apparently want than you may imagine. “All of the things that people are suggesting were already on the list of things that we had to do,” says Vincke. “So they fit our roadmap. We are, to a large extent, in sync with our audience, I think. But there are things that we hadn't thought of. So it'll be interesting to see what they are going to add to the game.”

Lol, I was an idiot to sepnd 90 bucks on this game. Oh well.
Originally Posted by Grimo
From IGN article:

One of the more difficult elements of developing Baldur’s Gate 3 with player involvement is that there are numerous different ‘camps’ of people interested in the game. There’s Larian’s long-term fans, who are crying out for there to be more ‘surfaces’ in the game (a mechanic used in the Original Sin games to create dynamic fire, poison clouds, oil slicks, and more). Then there’s players of the D&D tabletop game, who’d rather have surfaces removed all together. And then there’s old-school Baldur’s Gate fans, who want the real-time combat of the BioWare original games back. There’s a lot of people pulling in a lot of directions.

Does....does anyone actually want more surfaces? Weren't the biggest criticisms of DOSI&II about the surfaces??!!?
Originally Posted by Grimo


Lol, I was an idiot to sepnd 90 bucks on this game. Oh well.


So it is exactly what I suspected from day 1, DOS3 and leave details to the modders.
I must admit at this point I do see BG3 - without at least significant changes to the combat - to be just a 7.5/10 game for me. Overall its a disappointment (mainly because of the unbalanced combat, but also the questionable appeal of the NPCs and the DOS2 world structure - going through hubs on a very linar path). I don't think its a DOS3, but all the things I dislike about it are artefacts from DOS2, a game that for me was a (surprisingly) unmemorable and mediocre experience.
Originally Posted by mrfuji3

Does....does anyone actually want more surfaces? Weren't the biggest criticisms of DOSI&II about the surfaces??!!?


Exactly. Someone has used the tadpole too often because that's only taking place in dreamland.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Originally Posted by mrfuji3

Does....does anyone actually want more surfaces? Weren't the biggest criticisms of DOSI&II about the surfaces??!!?


Exactly. Someone has used the tadpole too often because that's only taking place in dreamland.


+1
I’d like to know if there was an actual survey to know that and I’ll shut my trap
Originally Posted by mrfuji3

Does....does anyone actually want more surfaces? Weren't the biggest criticisms of DOSI&II about the surfaces??!!?


Wat? Surfaces is one of the most amazing things about D:OS/2. So many unforgettable fights with that, it was really awesome.

I don't know if anyone asked for more surfaces, but there is surely plenty of people who would not mind this at all and you bet there are people who would like combat to be more deterministic like D:OS2 one too.
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Originally Posted by mrfuji3

Does....does anyone actually want more surfaces? Weren't the biggest criticisms of DOSI&II about the surfaces??!!?


Wat? Surfaces is one of the most amazing things about D:OS/2. So many unforgettable fights with that, it was really awesome.

I don't know if anyone asked for more surfaces, but there is surely plenty of people who would not mind this at all and you bet there are people who would like combat to be more deterministic like D:OS2 one too.


Said sample size of 1. The great minority like it.

My surveys in Reddit and forum says it.
I’m not reliable? There’s another joe’s poll here

https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat...p;utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

No. There’s no evidence that the majority likes it. It’s the opposite.
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Originally Posted by mrfuji3

Does....does anyone actually want more surfaces? Weren't the biggest criticisms of DOSI&II about the surfaces??!!?


Wat? Surfaces is one of the most amazing things about D:OS/2. So many unforgettable fights with that, it was really awesome.

I don't know if anyone asked for more surfaces, but there is surely plenty of people who would not mind this at all and you bet there are people who would like combat to be more deterministic like D:OS2 one too.


Said sample size of 1. The great minority like it.

My surveys in Reddit and forum says it.
I’m not reliable? There’s another joe’s poll here

https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat...p;utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

No. There’s no evidence that the majority likes it. It’s the opposite.


If Larian thinks that people like them, then they are probably right. They certainly have access to much more accurate data than one survey.
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Originally Posted by mrfuji3

Does....does anyone actually want more surfaces? Weren't the biggest criticisms of DOSI&II about the surfaces??!!?


Wat? Surfaces is one of the most amazing things about D:OS/2. So many unforgettable fights with that, it was really awesome.

I don't know if anyone asked for more surfaces, but there is surely plenty of people who would not mind this at all and you bet there are people who would like combat to be more deterministic like D:OS2 one too.

Your second paragraph there, that's exactly my point.You can't bring up anyone who asked for more surfaces. I certainly haven't seen significant posts on the forum about wanting more surfaces. Even you, who think that "surfaces is one of the most amazing things about D:OS/2" would only "not mind" more surfaces in BG3. (For the record, I also loved the surfaces in DOS. I liked the hectic-ness and the tactics of combining surfaces.)

And yet Swen claims that people
Quote
are CRYING OUT for there to be more surfaces in the game

Really, Swen? Really? Sounds like projection to me...
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Originally Posted by mrfuji3

Does....does anyone actually want more surfaces? Weren't the biggest criticisms of DOSI&II about the surfaces??!!?


Wat? Surfaces is one of the most amazing things about D:OS/2. So many unforgettable fights with that, it was really awesome.

I don't know if anyone asked for more surfaces, but there is surely plenty of people who would not mind this at all and you bet there are people who would like combat to be more deterministic like D:OS2 one too.


Said sample size of 1. The great minority like it.

My surveys in Reddit and forum says it.
I’m not reliable? There’s another joe’s poll here

https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat...p;utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

No. There’s no evidence that the majority likes it. It’s the opposite.


If Larian thinks that people like them, then they are probably right. They certainly have access to much more accurate data than one survey.


Share with everyone this amazing source and we’ll promise to shut our trap smile
I suggest less passion and more reasonable solutions

Professionalism comes from actual data not just feelings.
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Let me use copy paste because I’ve said that this earlier

I’m using this argument for a while regarding what’s the Larian counterpart for the community feedback.

-DOS2 “we’ve removed weapon durability”. Yes, that’s it. That’s all you’ll get.

And after 3 years after full release Larian will incorporate QoL mods in their system that was created by the community as well.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m also suggesting many things to the game and so on. But I’m not expecting to have this problem solved &/or to have my opinions implemented.

The point of feedback in EA is not supposed to be “hey customer, let’s work together and develop the game”. It’s more like: “I have a project, here’s my concept, could you please be so kind and increase my cashflow?”



I made a post about this and I found out most people in this forum don't see it this way, and they were basically against my point of view. Nice to see someone else understands that EA in gaming are just ways of using us for Bug reporting and faster QA, they don't care about our gameplay ideas, only about our valuable millions of daily hours of testing.
Originally Posted by drimaxus
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Let me use copy paste because I’ve said that this earlier

I’m using this argument for a while regarding what’s the Larian counterpart for the community feedback.

-DOS2 “we’ve removed weapon durability”. Yes, that’s it. That’s all you’ll get.

And after 3 years after full release Larian will incorporate QoL mods in their system that was created by the community as well.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m also suggesting many things to the game and so on. But I’m not expecting to have this problem solved &/or to have my opinions implemented.

The point of feedback in EA is not supposed to be “hey customer, let’s work together and develop the game”. It’s more like: “I have a project, here’s my concept, could you please be so kind and increase my cashflow?”



I made a post about this and I found out most people in this forum don't see it this way, and they were basically against my point of view. Nice to see someone else understands that EA in gaming are just ways of using us for Bug reporting and faster QA, they don't care about our gameplay ideas, only about our valuable millions of daily hours of testing.



And you know, that’s a completely acceptable approach to develop a game UNLESS you have your main flagship “give us damn feedbacks”

Have you ever wondered why there’s not this amount of rage against CD Projekt? Because they :

1-they’re honest to their concept from the very beginning
2-they aren’t cash grabbing people’s money as a trade off to let them participate in the game development

And in the end I’m pretty sure we’ll see CD star rocketing in sales and positive reviews
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Originally Posted by mrfuji3

Does....does anyone actually want more surfaces? Weren't the biggest criticisms of DOSI&II about the surfaces??!!?


Wat? Surfaces is one of the most amazing things about D:OS/2. So many unforgettable fights with that, it was really awesome.

I don't know if anyone asked for more surfaces, but there is surely plenty of people who would not mind this at all and you bet there are people who would like combat to be more deterministic like D:OS2 one too.


Said sample size of 1. The great minority like it.

My surveys in Reddit and forum says it.
I’m not reliable? There’s another joe’s poll here

https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat...p;utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

No. There’s no evidence that the majority likes it. It’s the opposite.


If Larian thinks that people like them, then they are probably right. They certainly have access to much more accurate data than one survey.


Steam like and dislike ? grin
Originally Posted by Rhobar121

If Larian thinks that people like them, then they are probably right. They certainly have access to much more accurate data than one survey.


Really? Then where are all the posts on these forums, the Steam forums, Larian's forums, Reddit which are wanting to have more surfaces? I don't recall seeing "There are not enough surfaces" as a serious complaint in this game.
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by Rhobar121

If Larian thinks that people like them, then they are probably right. They certainly have access to much more accurate data than one survey.


Really? Then where are all the posts on these forums, the Steam forums, Larian's forums, Reddit which are wanting to have more surfaces? I don't recall seeing "There are not enough surfaces" as a serious complaint in this game.


Found another one poll that clearly shows people that are “crying out” for more surfaces

https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat...p;utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Originally Posted by Grimo
From IGN article:

One of the more difficult elements of developing Baldur’s Gate 3 with player involvement is that there are numerous different ‘camps’ of people interested in the game. There’s Larian’s long-term fans, who are crying out for there to be more ‘surfaces’ in the game (a mechanic used in the Original Sin games to create dynamic fire, poison clouds, oil slicks, and more). Then there’s players of the D&D tabletop game, who’d rather have surfaces removed all together. And then there’s old-school Baldur’s Gate fans, who want the real-time combat of the BioWare original games back. There’s a lot of people pulling in a lot of directions.

“I can imagine that we will never manage to find the balance that will please everyone,” says Vincke. But, there is a (sort of) solution: “The game will be moddable eventually, so people will be able to make their mods. I expect multiple flavors of Baldur’s Gate 3 to come out of that. Over time there will be probably a flavor that will appeal hopefully to everybody.”

But as for the flavour that the Larian team will create themselves? It’s actually closer to the general consensus of what players apparently want than you may imagine. “All of the things that people are suggesting were already on the list of things that we had to do,” says Vincke. “So they fit our roadmap. We are, to a large extent, in sync with our audience, I think. But there are things that we hadn't thought of. So it'll be interesting to see what they are going to add to the game.”

Lol, I was an idiot to sepnd 90 bucks on this game. Oh well.


So they are going for the Bethesda solution, let the modders fix it, wonderful, just wonderful. Sigh, I hope this does not turn into Larian's Fallout 76 where they go from a must buy to never bother with.
"There’s Larian’s long-term fans, who are crying out for there to be more ‘surfaces’ in the game (a mechanic used in the Original Sin games to create dynamic fire, poison clouds, oil slicks, and more..."

I'm sorry, Citation Absolutely Needed here from the author, because that is a straight up lie from even the most casual of reviews of feedback on any of the available platforms.
Yeah, I’ve never seen anyone begging to have “more surfaces” into the game. And it’s not a matter of fidelity to the pen & paper either. “Too many surfaces everywhere, every this is constantly on fucking fire” was a recurring complaint about DOS 2 as well. And the fact it often was NECROfire didn’t make things any better.

At most I’ve seen people saying they don’t hate the idea of surface entirely, but they think those should be less ubiquitous across the game. That’s the “moderate” opinion and the group I’d count myself in.

A lot of other people on the other hand seem to want them gone from the game entirely.
Surfaces and environment effects can make for fantastic memories, but Larian put them everywhere and overpowered to turn them into purely trival part of combat. There is nothing special about them and it stopped all the way back in DOS1 to feel special. DOS2 ruined surface effects for me completely and now they are spilled over into BG3.

I don't want them completely gone, but like most good DM would say it: when its a creative idea to solve a situation its great. When it becomes a regularly used exploit it ruins the game. That's where Larian ended with those in their games.
Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem

So they are going for the Bethesda solution, let the modders fix it, wonderful, just wonderful. Sigh, I hope this does not turn into Larian's Fallout 76 where they go from a must buy to never bother with.



No. This is not the same. They are going to make a polished, working, fun game for a very large audience of people. Most people will not need or want to mod the game. But then the modders will make alternatives to make the game suit various NICHE audiences. Bethesda releases shittily-made games that actually need FIXING, not just customizing for select player preferences. Larian is gonna release a perfectly solid title, but it just might have some design elements that various minority groups dislike, and those people can mod the game to fit their perfect vision.


As for people "crying out" for more surfaces, that's absolute nonsense. I spend several hours a day on this forum and the BG3 subreddit, and I've never seen ANYONE "cry out" for MORE surfaces. What a load of tripe.


As for Larian communicating with us about what feedback they're considering, I think it's a double-edged sword. There's a reason they're hesitant to do that. You'll notice that they basically said, "give us your feedback and we'll use it to make the game better" and NOT "give us your feedback, we'll talk to you about your feedback, and then we'll make the game better". The reason that developers, especially big ones with lots of money and reputation riding on the line, keep things vague and unspecific, or just don't say anything. That reason is that gamers are fucking insane.

If they say, "we notice people asking for a larger party" or "we notice that people are asking for a classic CRPG control scheme" or "we notice that people are asking for Disengage and Hide to be regular actions", 9999 people will take these statements as Promises From On High that those issues are going to be addressed, in exactly the way that they hope. If Larian says those things, and then chooses NOT to alter their game to suit those particular feedbacks, then 9999 people will come out of the woodwork screaming, "They LIED to us! They said they were gonna fix these issues! Larian are liars, liars, liars! How dare they!" If you've been paying any attention to Greater Internet Discourse in the online gaming community over the last decade or so, you know that I'm right.

It just makes the most sense for them to stay quiet about specific issues until they feel like they are likely to give people what they want on those issues, to avoid crazy people misconstruing their words and starting an internet shitfire.
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
. . .the modders will make alternatives to make the game suit various NICHE audiences. Bethesda releases shittily-made games that actually need FIXING, not just customizing for select player preferences. Larian is gonna release a perfectly solid title, but it just might have some design elements that various minority groups dislike, and those people can mod the game to fit their perfect vision . . .


But there's the rub, who gets to decide who is a niche audience? Which is why the use badly drawn or disingenuously constructed continuums is worrisome. Such techniques can be used to make majority opinions seem like minority ones.

At the risk of getting my post moved -- I see this used in the political realm all the time. Policies that have something like an 80 percent approval rating are constructed as 'extreme' or 'marginal'.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit

But there's the rub, who gets to decide who is a niche audience?



The professional game developers who know how to make a game that will sell to a very large audience. They get to decide, because they have the most data and the most expertise.
Well I think we can all think of counter examples to those principles -- devs who thought they hand their finger on the pulse didn't and of devs who defied the consensus and produced hits.
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem

So they are going for the Bethesda solution, let the modders fix it, wonderful, just wonderful. Sigh, I hope this does not turn into Larian's Fallout 76 where they go from a must buy to never bother with.



No. This is not the same. They are going to make a polished, working, fun game for a very large audience of people. Most people will not need or want to mod the game. But then the modders will make alternatives to make the game suit various NICHE audiences. Bethesda releases shittily-made games that actually need FIXING, not just customizing for select player preferences. Larian is gonna release a perfectly solid title, but it just might have some design elements that various minority groups dislike, and those people can mod the game to fit their perfect vision.


As for people "crying out" for more surfaces, that's absolute nonsense. I spend several hours a day on this forum and the BG3 subreddit, and I've never seen ANYONE "cry out" for MORE surfaces. What a load of tripe.


As for Larian communicating with us about what feedback they're considering, I think it's a double-edged sword. There's a reason they're hesitant to do that. You'll notice that they basically said, "give us your feedback and we'll use it to make the game better" and NOT "give us your feedback, we'll talk to you about your feedback, and then we'll make the game better". The reason that developers, especially big ones with lots of money and reputation riding on the line, keep things vague and unspecific, or just don't say anything. That reason is that gamers are fucking insane.

If they say, "we notice people asking for a larger party" or "we notice that people are asking for a classic CRPG control scheme" or "we notice that people are asking for Disengage and Hide to be regular actions", 9999 people will take these statements as Promises From On High that those issues are going to be addressed, in exactly the way that they hope. If Larian says those things, and then chooses NOT to alter their game to suit those particular feedbacks, then 9999 people will come out of the woodwork screaming, "They LIED to us! They said they were gonna fix these issues! Larian are liars, liars, liars! How dare they!" If you've been paying any attention to Greater Internet Discourse in the online gaming community over the last decade or so, you know that I'm right.

It just makes the most sense for them to stay quiet about specific issues until they feel like they are likely to give people what they want on those issues, to avoid crazy people misconstruing their words and starting an internet shitfire.



Absolutely right and can not be stressed enough, the expectations some people in the forum have are riducolus.
Originally Posted by Maldurin
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem

So they are going for the Bethesda solution, let the modders fix it, wonderful, just wonderful. Sigh, I hope this does not turn into Larian's Fallout 76 where they go from a must buy to never bother with.



No. This is not the same. They are going to make a polished, working, fun game for a very large audience of people. Most people will not need or want to mod the game. But then the modders will make alternatives to make the game suit various NICHE audiences. Bethesda releases shittily-made games that actually need FIXING, not just customizing for select player preferences. Larian is gonna release a perfectly solid title, but it just might have some design elements that various minority groups dislike, and those people can mod the game to fit their perfect vision.


As for people "crying out" for more surfaces, that's absolute nonsense. I spend several hours a day on this forum and the BG3 subreddit, and I've never seen ANYONE "cry out" for MORE surfaces. What a load of tripe.


As for Larian communicating with us about what feedback they're considering, I think it's a double-edged sword. There's a reason they're hesitant to do that. You'll notice that they basically said, "give us your feedback and we'll use it to make the game better" and NOT "give us your feedback, we'll talk to you about your feedback, and then we'll make the game better". The reason that developers, especially big ones with lots of money and reputation riding on the line, keep things vague and unspecific, or just don't say anything. That reason is that gamers are fucking insane.

If they say, "we notice people asking for a larger party" or "we notice that people are asking for a classic CRPG control scheme" or "we notice that people are asking for Disengage and Hide to be regular actions", 9999 people will take these statements as Promises From On High that those issues are going to be addressed, in exactly the way that they hope. If Larian says those things, and then chooses NOT to alter their game to suit those particular feedbacks, then 9999 people will come out of the woodwork screaming, "They LIED to us! They said they were gonna fix these issues! Larian are liars, liars, liars! How dare they!" If you've been paying any attention to Greater Internet Discourse in the online gaming community over the last decade or so, you know that I'm right.

It just makes the most sense for them to stay quiet about specific issues until they feel like they are likely to give people what they want on those issues, to avoid crazy people misconstruing their words and starting an internet shitfire.



Absolutely right and can not be stressed enough, the expectations some people in the forum have are riducolus.


I simply don’t get people why some gamers don’t feel like customers. When you buy a product/service with your own money, you are not supposed to feel like a random Joe walking in the Louvre and admiring Da Vinci’s Gioconda.
I won’t stop you feeling this way be please don’t teach us how to behave like clients.

Larian is not making a F2P game, guys. Inside game data does not show client satisfaction level. Inside data only show how clients behave given certain pressure/temperature conditions. Of course you can claim that they have this unknown data regarding how the players feel concerning certain features in the game, yet you fail to show:

1-how it was taken
2-the results

Just to be more accurate: a subreddit meme with a map 100% covered in necrofire clearly isn’t the best way to get data.
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Maldurin
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem

So they are going for the Bethesda solution, let the modders fix it, wonderful, just wonderful. Sigh, I hope this does not turn into Larian's Fallout 76 where they go from a must buy to never bother with.



No. This is not the same. They are going to make a polished, working, fun game for a very large audience of people. Most people will not need or want to mod the game. But then the modders will make alternatives to make the game suit various NICHE audiences. Bethesda releases shittily-made games that actually need FIXING, not just customizing for select player preferences. Larian is gonna release a perfectly solid title, but it just might have some design elements that various minority groups dislike, and those people can mod the game to fit their perfect vision.


As for people "crying out" for more surfaces, that's absolute nonsense. I spend several hours a day on this forum and the BG3 subreddit, and I've never seen ANYONE "cry out" for MORE surfaces. What a load of tripe.


As for Larian communicating with us about what feedback they're considering, I think it's a double-edged sword. There's a reason they're hesitant to do that. You'll notice that they basically said, "give us your feedback and we'll use it to make the game better" and NOT "give us your feedback, we'll talk to you about your feedback, and then we'll make the game better". The reason that developers, especially big ones with lots of money and reputation riding on the line, keep things vague and unspecific, or just don't say anything. That reason is that gamers are fucking insane.

If they say, "we notice people asking for a larger party" or "we notice that people are asking for a classic CRPG control scheme" or "we notice that people are asking for Disengage and Hide to be regular actions", 9999 people will take these statements as Promises From On High that those issues are going to be addressed, in exactly the way that they hope. If Larian says those things, and then chooses NOT to alter their game to suit those particular feedbacks, then 9999 people will come out of the woodwork screaming, "They LIED to us! They said they were gonna fix these issues! Larian are liars, liars, liars! How dare they!" If you've been paying any attention to Greater Internet Discourse in the online gaming community over the last decade or so, you know that I'm right.

It just makes the most sense for them to stay quiet about specific issues until they feel like they are likely to give people what they want on those issues, to avoid crazy people misconstruing their words and starting an internet shitfire.



Absolutely right and can not be stressed enough, the expectations some people in the forum have are riducolus.


I simply don’t get people why some gamers don’t feel like customers. When you buy a product/service with your own money, you are not supposed to feel like a random Joe walking in the Louvre and admiring Da Vinci’s Gioconda.
I won’t stop you feeling this way be please don’t teach us how to behave like clients.

Larian is not making a F2P game, guys. Inside game data does not show client satisfaction level. Inside data only show how clients behave given certain pressure/temperature conditions. Of course you can claim that they have this unknown data regarding how the players feel concerning certain features in the game, yet you fail to show:

1-how it was taken
2-the results

Just to be more accurate: a subreddit meme with a map 100% covered in necrofire clearly isn’t the best way to get data.



Surely the sailiant point was that Larian are being cautious as to what feedback they comment on, if they comment at all. FOr all we know next patch introduces 6 party members, a new UI and sexy lingerie armour as per the big threads. Likelihood is they don't but continue to monitor and internally discuss and develop whilst polishing Act 1 and working on whatever is missing from the later Acts. Yes we are customers, but in EA we are also testers and as far as I am concerned I did not sign a contract giving me the right to scream blue murder until Larian acknowledges my often "think out loud" posts.

We are all providing feedback, what Larian chooses to do with that is entirely up to them. Sure, I would love it if they came in and went, bloody hell Riandor, you sound like you write fantasy (I do) and have fantastic ideas (I often don't), come work for us!! But I would equally be happy if they didn't even acknowledge my posts or anyone elses here and quietly got on with fixing the game. As long as it comes out with some of the items the community on here is in agreement on (more than not), then that's a win. If I don't like the game post release, or post patches, I will complain and not play and that will be dissapointing.

Sure, customer interaction is great, but it is often a two edged sword and as this forum alone is proof of, not everyone agrees with each other... which is great, but in that case a studio, or anyone, is often best sticking to their concepts, than trying to adapt anything that theiir customer base disagrees on.
I agree with you that Larian holds the final decision. I guess the whole community agree with that and clearly that’s not what being debated.
Again, we’re focusing in acknowledgment issues that are not being addressed by the company so far. Quite frankly, I don’t even feel that we’ll see something different in the final and polished version.

I’m also okay with the fact that they’ve adapted many rules to a videogame system. Yet, some of them (I’ve said some and not all) have a humongous backlash in the mechanics and the balance of the game, that currently cannot be seen. I’ve said many times how Barbarian will suffer drastically with this mess on the advantage system. Buff/debuff based classes like bards and clerics also will suffer. Well, let’s wait and see smile
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
I agree with you that Larian holds the final decision. I guess the whole community agree with that and clearly that’s not what being debated.
Again, we’re focusing in acknowledgment issues that are not being addressed by the company so far. Quite frankly, I don’t even feel that we’ll see something different in the final and polished version.

I’m also okay with the fact that they’ve adapted many rules to a videogame system. Yet, some of them (I’ve said some and not all) have a humongous backlash in the mechanics and the balance of the game, that currently cannot be seen. I’ve said many times how Barbarian will suffer drastically with this mess on the advantage system. Buff/debuff based classes like bards and clerics also will suffer. Well, let’s wait and see smile


Yeah I would also like to see how it all behaves together when the other classes are added. Hopefullly they come sooner rather than later so we can comment.
It seems like they're at least getting some of the complaints here, but my concern is that they're not understanding them or are just way off the mark.

Like complaints about companions for instance. It seems like they're attributing the generally unlikable companions to their alignments, which is extremely off the mark.

Companion alignment should not matter at all in terms of likeability. It's the dialogue and how they're written. Some evil characters are the most loved in fiction like Joker, Dexter, Pulp Fiction, Blacklist, etc. I mean, a lot of times people root for the villain!
I don't find either of the companions particularly evil, at all.

I mean Astarion is a Vampire, so yeah, he sure as hell isn't good, but he is cliche and and can go either way (figuratively and literally), but the rest are all self centered perhaps, but Evil? THey might be more relaxed with the player being of dubious morals, but not even Shadowheart strikes me as particularly evil and she worships Shar. I mean I played what I determined as CHaotic Good, with a touch of Sod you murderhobo if someone really ticked me off and I was universally loved by my party. Well I think Laezel might have only been moderatly enamoured.

Maybe Larian needs to hire Claudia Black for some voiceovers, always liked her dubious characters in games. lol.

I'm certain it's why we have seen calls for the Drow to be able to join us rather than betray us.
Originally Posted by Blade238
Some evil characters are the most loved in fiction like Joker, Dexter, Pulp Fiction, Blacklist, etc. I mean, a lot of times people root for the villain!


...Edwin, Korgan, Viconia...

I don't have much of an opinion on the companions in BG3 yet (though I'm probably not going to like most of them), but you can by all means make a character that is both evil and likeable.
Out of the feedbacks regarding the game mechanics, companion in-depth analysis is the one I’d like to avoid the most. This is the ground where as a customer I wouldn’t like to mess.

Yes, the companions are leaning more toward being a jerk than evil (with exception of Astarion who is a jerk and evil altogether). Yet, I’d say that this start is somehow better compared to BGI-II (except Jaheira&Khalid that clearly have reasons to join your party without being self centered & selfish)
due to the facts that your bounds are not strong enough to justify a blind commitment. In their position I’d also use Tav as a tool for our greater goal (just like Edwin).

Exploration and social interaction pillars are okayish to me. Combat is poorly designed and I simply dislike the great majority of the changes because they implemented way too many DOS like “strengths” as a trump card without visualizing the long run.
Seriously doubt Larian has appointed people to come to places like forums and reddit, to learn what they need to tweak in their game. They more than likely have their own people who play and troubleshoot the game, while paying a great deal of attention to the data we give them through playing.
Originally Posted by cool-dude01
Seriously doubt Larian has appointed people to come to places like forums and reddit, to learn what they need to tweak in their game. They more than likely have their own people who play and troubleshoot the game, while paying a great deal of attention to the data we give them through playing.


Considering the last patch was full of updates that were improvements that the community asked for, I disagree.
Originally Posted by Evandir
Originally Posted by cool-dude01
Seriously doubt Larian has appointed people to come to places like forums and reddit, to learn what they need to tweak in their game. They more than likely have their own people who play and troubleshoot the game, while paying a great deal of attention to the data we give them through playing.


Considering the last patch was full of updates that were improvements that the community asked for, I disagree.

Swen himself said they’ve been gathering feedback from the subreddit and this forum.
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Swen himself said they’ve been gathering feedback from the subreddit and this forum.

I believe the actual question here is how they do that ... there is many topics that have 15+ paiges ... do they read it whole, or just OP? :-/
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Swen himself said they’ve been gathering feedback from the subreddit and this forum.

I believe the actual question here is how they do that ... there is many topics that have 15+ paiges ... do they read it whole, or just OP? :-/


Not sure if every single post is duly noted... But we know mods (The Composer anyway) make notes of forum feedback and since they, well, moderate, they at least read a good portion of the forum posts.
Originally Posted by Evandir
Originally Posted by cool-dude01
Seriously doubt Larian has appointed people to come to places like forums and reddit, to learn what they need to tweak in their game. They more than likely have their own people who play and troubleshoot the game, while paying a great deal of attention to the data we give them through playing.

Considering the last patch was full of updates that were improvements that the community asked for, I disagree.

Fair enough, but beings that they thought people didn't like being evil because "evil bad", despite the numerous threads on the topic, tells me that the feedback they look at isn't what you think it is.
Considering that apparently half the posters on this board need to go to horny jail I start to wish Larian wouldn't read this board...
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Swen himself said they’ve been gathering feedback from the subreddit and this forum.
I believe the actual question here is how they do that ... there is many topics that have 15+ paiges ... do they read it whole, or just OP? :-/
Not sure if every single post is duly noted... But we know mods (The Composer anyway) make notes of forum feedback and since they, well, moderate, they at least read a good portion of the forum posts.
Well ...
When i see last patch ... i can definietly tell that they listened to most people who were angry about amount of spells in hotbar ... and they also definietly listened to their sugested "hex-like pop-up menu" solution ...
But since they completely scraped everything they created before. :-/ Im not quite sure if they simply didnt read reactions of that second group of people who liked it as it was ... or simpy choose to ignore them.

What is most confusing for me is the question why there even need to be only one system, since those two dont colide. :-/
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