Larian Studios
To be clear, this is not for stating changes to the base rules of 5e or even decrying some of these elements. This is to create a master list of all the elements of the game that make it ‘feel’ like a DoS game, rather than a Baldur’s Gate/D&D game, given that it is such a popular forum topic. I also acknowledge that I have shamelessly stolen many of these items from other posters, I cannot thank you all enough. Generally speaking, here is the logical process I used for inclusion on this list:

THIS IS NOT A LIST OF COMPLAINTS. THIS IS A LIST OF FACTORS (GOOD OR BAD) THAT CONTRIBUTE TO THE COMPLAINT THAT BG 3 FEELS TOO MUCH LIKE A DOS GAME

Step 1 - Was the 'thing' something that does exist in DoS?
Step 2 - Was the 'thing' something that is well known for existing in DoS?
Step 3 - Was the 'thing' something that does exist in BG?
Step 4 - Was the 'thing' something that is well known for existing in BG?
Step 5 - How often have I experienced the 'thing' being discussed?

I will keep this list updated if people wish to add to/remove from it:

1. Choice of color palette
2. Origin characters vs NPC companions
3. All Origin characters discovered nearly immediately in the game rather than organically throughout the entire story.
4. World full of meaningless items
5. World full of meaningless containers/locked chest with very little of value in them
6. Battles based in the environment and not in Character Class
7. Height (King of the Hill gameplay)
8. Backstab (only lacking the ground indicator from DoS)
9. Removing Class identity by making each character a Swiss Army knife, able to do everything (converting many Actions into Bonus Actions that normally only a Rogue would have, all classes can use scrolls, all classes have massive mobility in combat due to Jump, etc.)
10. Exactly the same starting pattern. Start as a prisoner on the vessel (boat/nautiloid) of our mentally flogging enemies (Magisters/Mindflayer). Vessel is attacked and we must take advantage of this to escape. Only everything does not go as planned and we fall off (void/water) and we are saved from dying by a mysterious force. Then we arrive on a beach and we wake up. Proceed to small settlement nearby.
11. Barrelmancy
12. Surfaces *everywhere*
13. Surfaces having overpowered effects beyond just damage
14. Food everywhere that is better healing than everything else
15. Encounter design that assumes you are fully rested for each fight.
16. Every fight involves flashy gimmicks and enemies using a host of special items (elemental arrows, grenades, healing potions)
17. No normal enemies
18. Reused DoS items that don’t exist in D&D 5e (Trap Kit)
19. Succeeding on a thieving check but the target magically knows you stole from them a few seconds later.
20. Enemies have insanely high HP values, needlessly lengthening combat
21. Chaining party members and movement system
22. Shared inventory space
23. Inventory management and UI
24. Swap any gear on and off in combat
25. Screen shake on ability selection, regardless of activation
26. Overly flashy effects for mundane actions (Jump, etc)
27. Stealth sight cones
28. Swap spells nearly at-will
29. Limited to 1 summon per character
30. Being knocked prone ends your turn
31. Turn Based vs Real Time with Pause
32. Overpowering low level characters via magic items (Doubling Magic Missiles damage)
33. Closeup character models for Portraits
34. Teleportation fast travel accessible from anywhere
35. Narrator’s voice is Malady from DoS 2
36. Normal attack with duel-wielding weapons attacks with both at the same time
37. Reused ability names and animations (Great Weapon Master is called “All In”)
38. Same highlighting mechanic of climbable surfaces
39. Same blocky item reveal UI that doesn’t actually show the item (pressing Alt)
40. Same revealing a hidden item graphic
41. Terrible pathing that will lead to allies unintentionally walking over surfaces and traps
42. Merchant UI
43. Giving free items to the merchant increases your ‘likeable’ score for that merchant, resulting in lower prices
44. Stealing from someone with one character while you are talking to them with another character
45. Giant contiguous maps rather than small and more discrete maps
46. 4 party limit
47. Same map and minimap UI (showing interactable ground, map markers)
48. Hotbar UI (primarily functionality)
49. Resurrection mechanics, animation (being able to magically teleport someone when resurrecting them)
50. Needing to double click to cast ‘self’ range spells
51. Inability to target party members for spells/abilities via their portrait
52. No non-combat exp or reward for avoiding combat
53. Only able to customize 1 character at the beginning
54. Excessively long ‘AI thinking’ delays in combat
55. Lockpicking progress bar
56. Most books and item descriptions extremely short
57. No need to identify magic items
58. Showing the percentage to-hit
59. Being able to right click on an enemy an ‘examine’ them to learn all of their stats
60. Moving cursor around a target can change whether you hit the target or the ranged attack is intercepted.
61. Companions completely block movement
62. Same party management UI in multiplayer
63. No day/night cycle, it’s always the same time of day in the location
64. Cannot adjust starting gear
65. Overabundance of magic items that remove the need to pick certain spells or abilities (Amulets for Speak with Dead, Misty Step, staff with Create Water, etc.)
66. No Fog of War
67. Ability to keep one or more party members out of combat via Stealth
68. No tracking of normal arrows
69. Wallhack scouting via camera manipulation
70. Aimbotting AI (automatically knowing which party member has the ‘least’ in a defensive stat and focusing solely on them)
71. No random encounters
72. Infinitely summonable Zombie companion
*edits below*
73. Access to enemy statistics by "Examining" them. (Note: DoS has this mechanic but locks some information behind spending points a particular skill, while BG did not have this at all).
74. Main theme music (credit to Endolex for demonstrating the audible difference a BG based theme would sound like -> https://soundcloud.com/endolex/baldurs-gate-iii-alternate-main-menu-arrangement)
Posted By: Matey Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 28/10/20 05:44 PM
Excellent list.
They dont have to change everything but as the list shows... there are just way too many things taken more or less directly from dos which makes this game feel too much like dos rather than its own thing.
Posted By: Orbax Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 28/10/20 05:50 PM
Now make one for how its like BG 1/2 and then a third one of what they need to change laugh
I'm actually already compiling one of those Orbax (for the similar to BG 1/2) but this list took quite a while to compile so if someone else wants to do it I'd be game haha.
Great list.
Posted By: vel Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 28/10/20 05:55 PM
Isaac Springsong that's a great list. I'd suggest submitting it via their site form as well to ensure a human at Larian sees it.
Originally Posted by Orbax
Now make one for how its like BG 1/2 and then a third one of what they need to change laugh


Hi Orbax, it’s me again smile

To find what’s BG2 just do this math

BG2 = BG3^(-1)

That’s the equation smile

Now, being serious, BG1&2 is a clean game. It’s like getting an rock and cutting it into a diamond. BG3 feels like you had a diamond and decided to put it into a necklace with multicolored chains. Too much information. Feel incredibly unpolished.

There’s this phrase that links to BG1/2 perfecly

A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

I don’t feel that in BG3 & DOS series

Hope you understand my artistic point of view
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Orbax
Now make one for how its like BG 1/2 and then a third one of what they need to change laugh


Hi Orbax, it’s me again smile

To find what’s BG2 just do this math

BG2 = BG3^(-1)

That’s the equation smile

Now, being serious, BG1&2 is a clean game. It’s like getting an rock and cutting it into a diamond. BG3 feels like you had a diamond and decided to put it into a necklace with multicolored chains. Too much information. Feel incredibly unpolished.

There’s this phrase that links to BG1/2 perfecly

A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

I don’t feel that in BG3 & DOS series

Hope you understand my artistic point of view


You do realize bg3 is in EARLY ACCES right?

Honestly I just see a list of complaints vs an informative or insightfull post that can help them.
+1000000 to OP, good list.
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Orbax
Now make one for how its like BG 1/2 and then a third one of what they need to change laugh


Hi Orbax, it’s me again smile

To find what’s BG2 just do this math

BG2 = BG3^(-1)

That’s the equation smile

Now, being serious, BG1&2 is a clean game. It’s like getting an rock and cutting it into a diamond. BG3 feels like you had a diamond and decided to put it into a necklace with multicolored chains. Too much information. Feel incredibly unpolished.

There’s this phrase that links to BG1/2 perfecly

A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

I don’t feel that in BG3 & DOS series

Hope you understand my artistic point of view


You do realize bg3 is in EARLY ACCES right?

Honestly I just see a list of complaints vs an informative or insightfull post that can help them.


OP made a great job by listing things for Larian to consider improving. What ere you doing besides complaining others effort?
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Orbax
Now make one for how its like BG 1/2 and then a third one of what they need to change laugh


Hi Orbax, it’s me again smile

To find what’s BG2 just do this math

BG2 = BG3^(-1)

That’s the equation smile

Now, being serious, BG1&2 is a clean game. It’s like getting an rock and cutting it into a diamond. BG3 feels like you had a diamond and decided to put it into a necklace with multicolored chains. Too much information. Feel incredibly unpolished.

There’s this phrase that links to BG1/2 perfecly

A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

I don’t feel that in BG3 & DOS series

Hope you understand my artistic point of view


You do realize bg3 is in EARLY ACCES right?

Honestly I just see a list of complaints vs an informative or insightfull post that can help them.


Hi Demolius,

Do you realize that feedback is “expected” for early access right?

In customer experience you don’t tell a car company how to make the seats. They’re the owner of technology. They are the ones who should find the best solution. It’s the customers role to tell them what feels bad “oh, this seat is not comfortable at all”.

Let’s be professional handling with bad reviews. It happens in the market more than you can imagine smile I’d like to think that Larian is mature and they can handle it. They do not need defenders.

Wish you all the best my fellow comrade
Posted By: Nezix Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 28/10/20 06:58 PM
Overall, excellent list, many of which made me laugh sadly because they are so lazy (43).

However I'm not really sure if #15 is true. In my playthrough of like 50 hours with Ranger/Laz/Wyll/Gale I only long rested like 4 times. And that's not exploiting barrels or stealth etc. (shrug)
I wasent complaining about the list itself but if you insist... Half of these things are nitpicks or things that have already been brought up a dozen times. Some of these things are issues that are already confirmed to be subject to change or features that they are working on. Some are the same exact point as others in the list which made the list bloated. (4 and 5 easy example of this)

So in short im rolling my eyes and sighing because I see a post like this at least twice, if not more times; per day. And each time the posts come across as if the OP doesent understand what an early acces is.

OP is free to share his list. Just like others are free to have reservations about the lists.
Posted By: eLeF Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 28/10/20 07:13 PM
Nice list, how/when is Larian going to adress this?
Originally Posted by Demoulius
I wasent complaining about the list itself but if you insist... Half of these things are nitpicks or things that have already been brought up a dozen times. Some of these things are issues that are already confirmed to be subject to change or features that they are working on. Some are the same exact point as others in the list which made the list bloated. (4 and 5 easy example of this)

So in short im rolling my eyes and sighing because I see a post like this at least twice, if not more times; per day. And each time the posts come across as if the OP doesent understand what an early acces is.

OP is free to share his list. Just like others are free to have reservations about the lists.


.....

Did you read the title? Or the introduction paragraph where I blatantly said some of them are sourced from other posters?

And by all means, please, point out (and provide the source for) which ones:
- Are confirmed to be subject to change
- Are confirmed to be features they are working on

Next, do you know the difference between a meaningless Item (rope, tongs, sheers, aka all of the copied DoS resources with no function) and a meaningless Container (chest and barrels with nothing in them)? If Larian wishes to keep the meaningless Items for flavor, but lose the meaningless Containers for ease of gameplay...well there ya go. Different elements.

Please, provide more examples. As noted, since you appear to not have actually read the introductory paragraph, I am happy to add to/remove from the list
Posted By: Emrikol Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 28/10/20 07:25 PM
Good job on compiling these points. Hopefully this will be the place where all such discussions are redirected so we don't have a new post every day regarding one or more of these issues.

As to the points themselves, there should be no surprise that there are a lot of parallels. It would be wasteful for them to change certain things just to be different (e.g. 49, 38, 35). Some are wrong (e.g hotbar UI). A good amount we can expect (or at least hope) to change (e.g 7, 8, 14, 15 and so on). Some are so subjective as to be meaningless (e.g 1). Moreover, a lengthy list can also be compiled that shows why BG3 doesn't feel like DOS2.
Originally Posted by Nezix
Overall, excellent list, many of which made me laugh sadly because they are so lazy (43).

However I'm not really sure if #15 is true. In my playthrough of like 50 hours with Ranger/Laz/Wyll/Gale I only long rested like 4 times. And that's not exploiting barrels or stealth etc. (shrug)


It is certainly possible, and if the game ever fixes the litany of problems one suggestion I will provide is to introduce (a non-5e mechanic even) that encourages or rewards Ironman-style gameplay where the less you rest the more the reward (difficulty level based).

But their encounter design is straight out of the DoS playbook that assumes you're spamming the bedroll between each encounter. This is demonstrated, to me at least, by several of the other points such as the abundance and power of surfaces, item usage by enemies, numerous sources of unavoidable damage, and generally the complete lack of any 'standard' fight that exists just because it makes RP sense for some weak goblins to be there, rather than the full elite crew of special ops ones we face now. This is exacerbated by Larian spamming food items that provide better and more easily accessible healing to try and compensate for the DoS style encounters.

If people feel that #15 is inaccurate however, I am happy to remove!
Great job with the list, OP! I don't necessarily agree with every single item on it, but the overall picture it paints is spot on.
Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
To be clear, this is not for stating changes to the base rules of 5e or even decrying some of these elements. This is to create a master list of all the elements of the game that make it ‘feel’ like a DoS game, rather than a Baldur’s Gate/D&D game, given that it is such a popular forum topic. I also acknowledge that I have shamelessly stolen many of these items from other posters, I cannot thank you all enough. I will keep this list updated if people wish to add to/remove from it:

1. Choice of color palette
2. Origin characters vs NPC companions
3. All Origin characters discovered nearly immediately in the game rather than organically throughout the entire story.
4. World full of meaningless items
5. World full of meaningless containers/locked chest with very little of value in them
6. Battles based in the environment and not in Character Class
7. Height (King of the Hill gameplay)
8. Backstab (only lacking the ground indicator from DoS)
9. Removing Class identity by making each character a Swiss Army knife, able to do everything (converting many Actions into Bonus Actions that normally only a Rogue would have, all classes can use scrolls, all classes have massive mobility in combat due to Jump, etc.)
10. Exactly the same starting pattern. Start as a prisoner on the vessel (boat/nautiloid) of our mentally flogging enemies (Magisters/Mindflayer). Vessel is attacked and we must take advantage of this to escape. Only everything does not go as planned and we fall off (void/water) and we are saved from dying by a mysterious force. Then we arrive on a beach and we wake up. Proceed to small settlement nearby.
11. Barrelmancy
12. Surfaces *everywhere*
13. Surfaces having overpowered effects beyond just damage
14. Food everywhere that is better healing than everything else
15. Encounter design that assumes you are fully rested for each fight.
16. Every fight involves flashy gimmicks and enemies using a host of special items (elemental arrows, grenades, healing potions)
17. No normal enemies
18. Reused DoS items that don’t exist in D&D 5e (Trap Kit)
19. Succeeding on a thieving check but the target magically knows you stole from them a few seconds later.
20. Enemies have insanely high HP values, needlessly lengthening combat
21. Chaining party members and movement system
22. Shared inventory space
23. Inventory management and UI
24. Swap any gear on and off in combat
25. Screen shake on ability selection, regardless of activation
26. Overly flashy effects for mundane actions (Jump, etc)
27. Stealth sight cones
28. Swap spells nearly at-will
29. Limited to 1 summon per character
30. Being knocked prone ends your turn
31. Turn Based vs Real Time with Pause
32. Overpowering low level characters via magic items (Doubling Magic Missiles damage)
33. Closeup character models for Portraits
34. Teleportation fast travel accessible from anywhere
35. Narrator’s voice is Malady from DoS 2
36. Normal attack with duel-wielding weapons attacks with both at the same time
37. Reused ability names and animations (Great Weapon Master is called “All In”)
38. Same highlighting mechanic of climbable surfaces
39. Same blocky item reveal UI that doesn’t actually show the item (pressing Alt)
40. Same revealing a hidden item graphic
41. Terrible pathing that will lead to allies unintentionally walking over surfaces and traps
42. Merchant UI
43. Giving free items to the merchant increases your ‘likeable’ score for that merchant, resulting in lower prices
44. Stealing from someone with one character while you are talking to them with another character
45. Giant contiguous maps rather than small and more discrete maps
46. 4 party limit
47. Same map and minimap UI (showing interactable ground, map markers)
48. Hotbar UI
49. Resurrection mechanics, animation (being able to magically teleport someone when resurrecting them)
50. Needing to double click to cast ‘self’ range spells
51. Inability to target party members for spells/abilities via their portrait
52. No non-combat exp or reward for avoiding combat
53. Only able to customize 1 character at the beginning
54. Excessively long ‘AI thinking’ delays in combat
55. Lockpicking progress bar
56. Most books and item descriptions extremely short
57. No need to identify magic items
58. Showing the percentage to-hit
59. Being able to right click on an enemy an ‘examine’ them to learn all of their stats
60. Moving cursor around a target can change whether you hit the target or the ranged attack is intercepted.
61. Companions completely block movement
62. Same party management UI in multiplayer
63. No day/night cycle, it’s always the same time of day in the location
64. Cannot adjust starting gear
65. Overabundance of magic items that remove the need to pick certain spells or abilities (Amulets for Speak with Dead, Misty Step, staff with Create Water, etc.)
66. No Fog of War
67. Ability to keep one or more party members out of combat via Stealth
68. No tracking of normal arrows
69. Wallhack scouting via camera manipulation
70. Aimbotting AI (automatically knowing which party member has the ‘least’ in a defensive stat and focusing solely on them)
71. No random encounters
72. Infinitely summonable Zombie companion



+1 for around 90%, great list overall
Originally Posted by Emrikol
Good job on compiling these points. Hopefully this will be the place where all such discussions are redirected so we don't have a new post every day regarding one or more of these issues.

As to the points themselves, there should be no surprise that there are a lot of parallels. It would be wasteful for them to change certain things just to be different (e.g. 49, 38, 35). Some are wrong (e.g hotbar UI). A good amount we can expect (or at least hope) to change (e.g 7, 8, 14, 15 and so on). Some are so subjective as to be meaningless (e.g 1). Moreover, a lengthy list can also be compiled that shows why BG3 doesn't feel like DOS2.


Several of the items were condensed for brevity, such as the Hotbar UI. In particular I was trying to reference how it both appears similar stylistically and functionally. For example, the automatically placing of potions, scrolls, items, abilities resulting in a cluttered mess that doesn't keep its arrangement, as well as the automatic removal of 'abilities' that are no longer available (such as the Recast Hex/Hunter's Mark) that then get filled in by picking something up, making for a tedious process each time you use those 'temporary' skills. Should I provide more detail on some of them?

Other items like #1 were straight up lifted based on seeing the same comment repeated on this forum or the Discord server. I suppose someone could do a full color palette analysis, but admittedly it was ultimately a subjective call on my part. The plural of anecdote is not data, but until someone can do a more objective analysis I do agree that the color palette is more similar to the DoS series (bright, exaggerated lighting, overly vivid colors) than anything else, much less the Baldur's Gate series (duller, subdued lighting). Undoubtedly some of that is due to the progression of time and expectations of visual fidelity, but the comparison remains (compare BG 3 to something like the PKM/Wasteland 3 color palettes to show what the feel could be even on a modern engine).
I only have one problem with the premise: I was w/out internet for several hours today, and spent that time playing D: OS 2. While it's not Apples to Oranges, it's not the same either, more like crab apples to green apples.

1. Maybe it's Skyrim? Basically the same color pallete.
2. Yep, that's the same.
3. EA, although I'm not sure that will change, but if they want you to meet these comps for EA, there's really not a better way to do it. Then there's the whole thing you go on to point out later with the boat/ship similarities? Over how many thousands of miles do you expect the wreckage to be strewn, considering we teleported in, and then crashed? I didn't see anyone bailing off when we do see the ship in the opening cutscene, did I miss something?
4. Too many games to list for this, including a ton of MMOs.
5. Were you perhaps expecting to loot BiS gear for you and all your comps before level 5?
6. this, and 11, 12 and 13 are the same thing? Maybe I was playing Tomb Raider recently, and noticing all those empty bottles, and gas cans, and empty cans to make grenades out of...
7. At least "realistic", depending on the environment.
8. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Backstab was in the original BG. It is also in most iterations of DnD games, and other games with thieves. NWN has Assassinate, and it can even be used with a ranged weapon.
9. Yep, that needs to be fixed, I love my rogues, and I want them to be rogues.
10. Oblivion, and Skyrim say hello, off the top of my head. With the added bonus of BG 2. Sorry, this isn't a Divinity Trope, it predates Larian. Still, kinda tropey, but it is what it is.
11-13 covered above.
14. Again, Oblivion and Skyrim say hello.

I'd go on, but frankly, I can imagine that the list will continue in this fashion, where there's 2 in 14 items that I can say, yeah, that's probably based on what they've been successful with. With the rest being a definition of trope before Larian ever opened their doors. Going on a spree of "well, that was in this game, and that game" doesn't do anyone any good when there are a lot of other games we can point to that have the same things, and some of them are far older than D: OS 2.
Posted By: Emrikol Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 28/10/20 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
Originally Posted by Emrikol
Good job on compiling these points. Hopefully this will be the place where all such discussions are redirected so we don't have a new post every day regarding one or more of these issues.

As to the points themselves, there should be no surprise that there are a lot of parallels. It would be wasteful for them to change certain things just to be different (e.g. 49, 38, 35). Some are wrong (e.g hotbar UI). A good amount we can expect (or at least hope) to change (e.g 7, 8, 14, 15 and so on). Some are so subjective as to be meaningless (e.g 1). Moreover, a lengthy list can also be compiled that shows why BG3 doesn't feel like DOS2.


Several of the items were condensed for brevity, such as the Hotbar UI. In particular I was trying to reference how it both appears similar stylistically and functionally. For example, the automatically placing of potions, scrolls, items, abilities resulting in a cluttered mess that doesn't keep its arrangement, as well as the automatic removal of 'abilities' that are no longer available (such as the Recast Hex/Hunter's Mark) that then get filled in by picking something up, making for a tedious process each time you use those 'temporary' skills. Should I provide more detail on some of them?

Other items like #1 were straight up lifted based on seeing the same comment repeated on this forum or the Discord server. I suppose someone could do a full color palette analysis, but admittedly it was ultimately a subjective call on my part. The plural of anecdote is not data, but until someone can do a more objective analysis I do agree that the color palette is more similar to the DoS series (bright, exaggerated lighting, overly vivid colors) than anything else, much less the Baldur's Gate series (duller, subdued lighting). Undoubtedly some of that is due to the progression of time and expectations of visual fidelity, but the comparison remains (compare BG 3 to something like the PKM/Wasteland 3 color palettes to show what the feel could be even on a modern engine).

Fair point on the hotbar. Probably should rephrase to “hotbar functionality” though.

Please don’t feel like you need to defend all the points you listed (you’ll have no time for anything else if you do). I know you are simply listing arguments made by others.
Originally Posted by Emrikol

Fair point on the hotbar. Probably should rephrase to “hotbar functionality” though.

Please don’t feel like you need to defend all the points you listed (you’ll have no time for anything else if you do). I know you are simply listing arguments made by others.


No worries, it was a great suggestion so I tweaked #48 a bit to clarify. Still trying to keep it 'broad' until asked to clarify, otherwise it becomes less of a list and more of a novel. And honestly just a bit apprehensive of doing something more comprehensive until Larian shows how much they care if the game feels like DoS rather than BG :-/
Originally Posted by robertthebard
I only have one problem with the premise: I was w/out internet for several hours today, and spent that time playing D: OS 2. While it's not Apples to Oranges, it's not the same either, more like crab apples to green apples.

1. Maybe it's Skyrim? Basically the same color pallete.
2. Yep, that's the same.
3. EA, although I'm not sure that will change, but if they want you to meet these comps for EA, there's really not a better way to do it. Then there's the whole thing you go on to point out later with the boat/ship similarities? Over how many thousands of miles do you expect the wreckage to be strewn, considering we teleported in, and then crashed? I didn't see anyone bailing off when we do see the ship in the opening cutscene, did I miss something?
4. Too many games to list for this, including a ton of MMOs.
5. Were you perhaps expecting to loot BiS gear for you and all your comps before level 5?
6. this, and 11, 12 and 13 are the same thing? Maybe I was playing Tomb Raider recently, and noticing all those empty bottles, and gas cans, and empty cans to make grenades out of...
7. At least "realistic", depending on the environment.
8. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Backstab was in the original BG. It is also in most iterations of DnD games, and other games with thieves. NWN has Assassinate, and it can even be used with a ranged weapon.
9. Yep, that needs to be fixed, I love my rogues, and I want them to be rogues.
10. Oblivion, and Skyrim say hello, off the top of my head. With the added bonus of BG 2. Sorry, this isn't a Divinity Trope, it predates Larian. Still, kinda tropey, but it is what it is.
11-13 covered above.
14. Again, Oblivion and Skyrim say hello.

I'd go on, but frankly, I can imagine that the list will continue in this fashion, where there's 2 in 14 items that I can say, yeah, that's probably based on what they've been successful with. With the rest being a definition of trope before Larian ever opened their doors. Going on a spree of "well, that was in this game, and that game" doesn't do anyone any good when there are a lot of other games we can point to that have the same things, and some of them are far older than D: OS 2.


I feel like you might have a misconception of my intention.

This isn't a list of things that are 'only' from DoS. They are factors that make the game 'feel' like DoS, rather than a Baldur's Gate. Apologies if that was a confusion.

#3. BG 1 started you off in Candlekeep, a well known location and nary a shipwreck or prison in site. BG 2 *did* start you off in a prison, of sorts, but you didn't wake up on a beach, you weren't throw overboard. You started in a literally massive city. Compare the start of BG 3 to BG1/2, and then comparing BG 3 to the start of DoS 1/2.

BG 1/2 - You start as a prisoner in BG 2.....

DoS 1/2 - All of the things I listed.

That's why it's on the list.

#4. BG 1/2 had very few 'useless' items. There were some for flavor, but otherwise that was it. The world was filled with non-relevant items, but they were background art, non-interactable. The fleshed out the world without being cumbersome. DoS 1/2 on the other hand, chocked full of them to the point where it is literally a meme. Are some MMOs filled with useless items? Yes, but people don't seem to be comparing BG 3 to any MMOs out there, they are comparing it almost exclusively to the BG series and DoS.

#5. Nope, in fact you may noticed I listed the overabundance of certain magic items as a similarity with DoS rather than BG 1/2. Might want to read the full list. This is in reference to the absurd number of containers that contain....nothing. Not useless items as in #4, literally nothing. BG series *kind* of had that *occasionally* with the bookshelves, but more often than not those bookshelves at least had thick lore books to read in them (albeit most just copies).

#6 This one may have suffered due to my efforts at condensing list/just taking from other posters. If it continues to be viewed unfavorably happy to remove.

#7. Nope, please see -> https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=719930. It follows neither the rules of 5e nor is it good for game balance, but more importantly the perspective of "King of the Hill" style gameplay being a clear import from DoS is pretty common in the forums and Discord server.

#8. Yes, sort of. But as you may or may not know, BG 1 & 2 didn't use 5e rules. It used 2e rules. It also didn't operate as Advantage for every single class but more as a class feature for certain Rogues. Compare that to DoS where any character could access it with minimal effort.

#10. Please see response to #3.

#14. Please see my introduction to this post, I don't care if other games have done it. BG did not do it and DoS absolutely did it. To the point where they literally reused the same DoS resources including the sound effects and certain icons in BG 3.
Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
Originally Posted by robertthebard
I only have one problem with the premise: I was w/out internet for several hours today, and spent that time playing D: OS 2. While it's not Apples to Oranges, it's not the same either, more like crab apples to green apples.

1. Maybe it's Skyrim? Basically the same color pallete.
2. Yep, that's the same.
3. EA, although I'm not sure that will change, but if they want you to meet these comps for EA, there's really not a better way to do it. Then there's the whole thing you go on to point out later with the boat/ship similarities? Over how many thousands of miles do you expect the wreckage to be strewn, considering we teleported in, and then crashed? I didn't see anyone bailing off when we do see the ship in the opening cutscene, did I miss something?
4. Too many games to list for this, including a ton of MMOs.
5. Were you perhaps expecting to loot BiS gear for you and all your comps before level 5?
6. this, and 11, 12 and 13 are the same thing? Maybe I was playing Tomb Raider recently, and noticing all those empty bottles, and gas cans, and empty cans to make grenades out of...
7. At least "realistic", depending on the environment.
8. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Backstab was in the original BG. It is also in most iterations of DnD games, and other games with thieves. NWN has Assassinate, and it can even be used with a ranged weapon.
9. Yep, that needs to be fixed, I love my rogues, and I want them to be rogues.
10. Oblivion, and Skyrim say hello, off the top of my head. With the added bonus of BG 2. Sorry, this isn't a Divinity Trope, it predates Larian. Still, kinda tropey, but it is what it is.
11-13 covered above.
14. Again, Oblivion and Skyrim say hello.

I'd go on, but frankly, I can imagine that the list will continue in this fashion, where there's 2 in 14 items that I can say, yeah, that's probably based on what they've been successful with. With the rest being a definition of trope before Larian ever opened their doors. Going on a spree of "well, that was in this game, and that game" doesn't do anyone any good when there are a lot of other games we can point to that have the same things, and some of them are far older than D: OS 2.


I feel like you might have a misconception of my intention.

This isn't a list of things that are 'only' from DoS. They are factors that make the game 'feel' like DoS, rather than a Baldur's Gate. Apologies if that was a confusion.

#3. BG 1 started you off in Candlekeep, a well known location and nary a shipwreck or prison in site. BG 2 *did* start you off in a prison, of sorts, but you didn't wake up on a beach, you weren't throw overboard. You started in a literally massive city. Compare the start of BG 3 to BG1/2, and then comparing BG 3 to the start of DoS 1/2.

BG 1/2 - You start as a prisoner in BG 2.....

DoS 1/2 - All of the things I listed.

That's why it's on the list.

#4. BG 1/2 had very few 'useless' items. There were some for flavor, but otherwise that was it. The world was filled with non-relevant items, but they were background art, non-interactable. The fleshed out the world without being cumbersome. DoS 1/2 on the other hand, chocked full of them to the point where it is literally a meme. Are some MMOs filled with useless items? Yes, but people don't seem to be comparing BG 3 to any MMOs out there, they are comparing it almost exclusively to the BG series and DoS.

#5. Nope, in fact you may noticed I listed the overabundance of certain magic items as a similarity with DoS rather than BG 1/2. Might want to read the full list. This is in reference to the absurd number of containers that contain....nothing. Not useless items as in #4, literally nothing. BG series *kind* of had that *occasionally* with the bookshelves, but more often than not those bookshelves at least had thick lore books to read in them (albeit most just copies).

#6 This one may have suffered due to my efforts at condensing list/just taking from other posters. If it continues to be viewed unfavorably happy to remove.

#7. Nope, please see -> https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=719930. It follows neither the rules of 5e nor is it good for game balance, but more importantly the perspective of "King of the Hill" style gameplay being a clear import from DoS is pretty common in the forums and Discord server.

#8. Yes, sort of. But as you may or may not know, BG 1 & 2 didn't use 5e rules. It used 2e rules. It also didn't operate as Advantage for every single class but more as a class feature for certain Rogues. Compare that to DoS where any character could access it with minimal effort.

#10. Please see response to #3.

#14. Please see my introduction to this post, I don't care if other games have done it. BG did not do it and DoS absolutely did it. To the point where they literally reused the same DoS resources including the sound effects and certain icons in BG 3.




No worries mate, I was just pointing out that if someone had never played DOS 2, they may have a completely different take, because some of the tropey stuff is tropey for a reason.

In regard to 5: The question stands. There were lootable items in BG, BG 2, IWD, IWD 2, NWN, NWN 2 and on and on, that were there for the express purpose of being sold to a vendor. Useless for anything else.

7. Yeah, so is "it's exactly the same as Divinity". I have the experience from just this morning because my catalog of games I can play offline is small, to say "Nope, it's not exactly the same". I also have some real world experience to know that shooting from high ground does give one an advantage. I may have even addressed that in that thread, but perhaps not. However, even with archery, if you're shooting deer, you can get a clearer shot from a blind in a tree than trying to shoot through underbrush to hit it. Nothing to do with range, or damage rolls, just a purely factual representation of what it's actually like.

Regarding 8, see where I agreed with you about the rogues. Yes, I did know, I have a lot of experience with both BG and BG 2.

10: Yeah, as I said, it's a trope for a reason. Pointing at all the tropes to say "see, DOS 3" doesn't carry a lot of weight, especially if they were tropes before DOS 2 ever came out.

Wasn't 14 about food? Did you know you could be a master chef in Aion, about 10 years before Divinity? This is what I'm talking about. Someone reading this that's never played DOS 2 is going to be more like "what are they going on about, that was in Oblivion, or Aion, or (insert other games they may have played that had cooking)".
+1 to 90% of these!

The other 10% is QoL changes, or speeding up development/integration of features by using existing stuff from DOS (trading/bartering etc.)
Originally Posted by robertthebard
*snip*


No worries mate, I was just pointing out that if someone had never played DOS 2, they may have a completely different take, because some of the tropey stuff is tropey for a reason.

In regard to 5: The question stands. There were lootable items in BG, BG 2, IWD, IWD 2, NWN, NWN 2 and on and on, that were there for the express purpose of being sold to a vendor. Useless for anything else.

7. Yeah, so is "it's exactly the same as Divinity". I have the experience from just this morning because my catalog of games I can play offline is small, to say "Nope, it's not exactly the same". I also have some real world experience to know that shooting from high ground does give one an advantage. I may have even addressed that in that thread, but perhaps not. However, even with archery, if you're shooting deer, you can get a clearer shot from a blind in a tree than trying to shoot through underbrush to hit it. Nothing to do with range, or damage rolls, just a purely factual representation of what it's actually like.

Regarding 8, see where I agreed with you about the rogues. Yes, I did know, I have a lot of experience with both BG and BG 2.

10: Yeah, as I said, it's a trope for a reason. Pointing at all the tropes to say "see, DOS 3" doesn't carry a lot of weight, especially if they were tropes before DOS 2 ever came out.

Wasn't 14 about food? Did you know you could be a master chef in Aion, about 10 years before Divinity? This is what I'm talking about. Someone reading this that's never played DOS 2 is going to be more like "what are they going on about, that was in Oblivion, or Aion, or (insert other games they may have played that had cooking)".


#5 yup, the infamous Vendor Trash (tm). But this isn't vendor trash. The VT in the listed games had actually worthwhile gold value, especially relative to their weight. We didn't get inventories full of 1gp bones, skulls, ropes, tongs, sheers, etc. That's why I didn't say vendor trash, but specifically the useless items that don't even serve the purpose of generating gold.

#7 If you read the link I wrote, I am actually *heavily* advocating for BG 3 to represent digitally what you described. Which is the Cover mechanics, a base rule of 5e. Height should potentially allow you to shoot over Cover, thus providing (in general) a +2 to the attack roll. That's not what is currently represented in BG 3. Right now, shooting from a stand is treated as if you suddenly strapped a thermal scope and hunted in pitch black, regardless of whether there was any Cover between you and the target to begin with. But as you know, shooting a target from a stand or from the ground, when there is no Cover at all between you and your target to begin with, is not any more inherently accurate (target/range/sighting dependent, but roughly true), while BG 3 currently treats it as if there is. Introducing the 5e Cover mechanics is a golden goal for me personally.

#10 But it's not a trope of the BG series, while it is a *firm* trope of the DoS series. To the point where all you have to say is "start on a beach" and too many people immediately know you're memeing DoS. Like it or not, that trope is *heavily* associated with DoS, and not at all with the BG series. This is not a point I expect Larian to change at this point, but it is accurate for a list of why the game may feel like DoS rather than BG.

#14 Again, I feel like you're ignoring the point of this thread. Generally speaking, here is the logical process I used for inclusion on this list:

Step 1 - Was the 'thing' something that does exist in DoS?
Step 2 - Was the 'thing' something that is well known for existing in DoS?
Step 3 - Was the 'thing' something that does exist in BG?
Step 4 - Was the 'thing' something that is well known for existing in BG?
Step 5 - How often have I experienced the 'thing' being discussed?

Yes, Yes, No, No, often = put on the list. Whether or not another game also had a similar feature isn't relevant to me, especially because Larian isn't known for those games so the expectations to differentiate from some random other game aren't relevant (to me at least).

This thread isn't relevant, at all, for someone that hasn't played DoS. But then again the literally most commonly provided feedback on this forum also isn't that BG 3 feels too much like Aion. It's that it feels too much like DoS. So that's what DoS is the comparison, not other games. It isn't factors that are unique to DoS, it's for factors that are prominent in DoS but also generally not prominent in BG, thus lending to the feeling of playing DoS rather than BG.
Great list, smile
one more: no xp for conversation
Posted By: Orbax Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 28/10/20 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Orbax
Now make one for how its like BG 1/2 and then a third one of what they need to change laugh


Hi Orbax, it’s me again smile

To find what’s BG2 just do this math

BG2 = BG3^(-1)

That’s the equation smile

Now, being serious, BG1&2 is a clean game. It’s like getting an rock and cutting it into a diamond. BG3 feels like you had a diamond and decided to put it into a necklace with multicolored chains. Too much information. Feel incredibly unpolished.

There’s this phrase that links to BG1/2 perfecly

A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

I don’t feel that in BG3 & DOS series

Hope you understand my artistic point of view



That does paint a picture, but it also leaves one asking Claude Monet if he can make his pictures more like picasso but still keep that monet feeling
Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
Originally Posted by Demoulius
I wasent complaining about the list itself but if you insist... Half of these things are nitpicks or things that have already been brought up a dozen times. Some of these things are issues that are already confirmed to be subject to change or features that they are working on. Some are the same exact point as others in the list which made the list bloated. (4 and 5 easy example of this)

So in short im rolling my eyes and sighing because I see a post like this at least twice, if not more times; per day. And each time the posts come across as if the OP doesent understand what an early acces is.

OP is free to share his list. Just like others are free to have reservations about the lists.


.....

Did you read the title? Or the introduction paragraph where I blatantly said some of them are sourced from other posters?

And by all means, please, point out (and provide the source for) which ones:
- Are confirmed to be subject to change
- Are confirmed to be features they are working on

Next, do you know the difference between a meaningless Item (rope, tongs, sheers, aka all of the copied DoS resources with no function) and a meaningless Container (chest and barrels with nothing in them)? If Larian wishes to keep the meaningless Items for flavor, but lose the meaningless Containers for ease of gameplay...well there ya go. Different elements.

Please, provide more examples. As noted, since you appear to not have actually read the introductory paragraph, I am happy to add to/remove from the list

I read the title and your opening paragraph. Doesent take away from my points though. But for the sake of beeing helpfull rather then just critiize il add my 2 cents.

So what I see is that the list can basicly be summed up in a variety of categories. Complaints. And often generic ones at that. Points where the game compares alot to DOS. Points where it compares to BG, but the opinion is that theres to little of these. And things that either seem to be bugs, incomplete features or things that just need to be adressed. Which is what the EA is for. Il list some feedback by each points why I do or do not see the merit behind it.

Generic complaints
1. Choice of color palette. I mean.... Ok? Bg 1 and 2 were pretty dark in a lot of places. Why is this a complaint exactly?
6. Battles based in the environment and not in Character Class. 7. Height (King of the Hill gameplay) Combined these 2 because they are literally the same. Height giving advantage is a VERY frequently mentioned point of critisim. BG dident even have heigh (or lack thereof) so uh.... You all want a flatt world or something?
8. Backstab (only lacking the ground indicator from DoS). Uh. Yeah? They use the same engine. Also its a dnd 5e rule. Attacking someone who cant see you gives you advantage. Whats the complaint?
14. Food everywhere that is better healing than everything else. Food defenitly isent better then the greater or superior healing potions so this is just outright false.
27. Stealth sight cones. Why is this a complaint? It allows one to make use of stealth. Seriously why are the vision cones a complaint?
29. Limited to 1 summon per character. Might be for balance reasons, or engine related. There also arent many classes outside of necromancer or conjurers who can actually get multiple minions.
31. Turn Based vs Real Time with Pause. The game is based on 5th ed dnd. Dnd is turn based. Making it real time would mean things like reactions etc would need major overhauls or simply wouldnt work. Cant run away from a melee threat as a wizard while also casting spells for example, which you CAN do in turn based.
33. Closeup character models for Portraits. Ive seen multiple games that use this system. Whats the complaint exactly?
34. Teleportation fast travel accessible from anywhere. Fast travel is a QoL improvement. I mean. Why are these things issues that people complain about? If you dont like it just walk everywhere. THAT IS AN OPTION. You dont have to fast travel....
35. Narrator’s voice is Malady from DoS 2. Ok. So they used a voice actor they got experience working with? Why would this make it more or less BG or DOS? Cant they use ANY of the voice actors that have worked in their previous games?
38. Same highlighting mechanic of climbable surfaces. Its literally the same engine.
42. Merchant UI. What about it. Dont like it? Got improvements for it? What? Whats the complaint? Honestly the merchant UI from bg was dreadfull so I dont know why this would be something to complain about?
43. Giving free items to the merchant increases your ‘likeable’ score for that merchant, resulting in lower prices. Ok. So they got a barter system? What about it? Want to suggest improvements? BG actually dident give you a chance to barter so I guess that means its more closely tied to DOS but..... Why is the fact that you can raise rep in place of a barter system a bad thing?
44. Stealing from someone with one character while you are talking to them with another character. 19. Succeeding on a thieving check but the target magically knows you stole from them a few seconds later. Merged these 2 as they focus on the same thing.Yeah? What did you expect that you can rob them of everything up to and including their underwear and they would never notice?
45. Giant contiguous maps rather than small and more discrete maps. You dont like it I guess? What does this have to do with either BG or DOS though?
46. 4 party limit. Dnd is balanced around 4 man parties. Dont know what to tell you.
47. Same map and minimap UI (showing interactable ground, map markers) SAME. ENGINE.
48. Hotbar UI. What bout it. You know what also had a hotbar? BG.
49. Resurrection mechanics, animation (being able to magically teleport someone when resurrecting them) seriously what the everliving **$_ why is this a complaint? What does this have to do with BG or DOS?
55. Lockpicking progress bar. Why is this a complaint?
58. Showing the percentage to-hit. Anyone who can do basic math and who understands how they can calculate odds will know that a die results can be directly translated to a percentage. 75% to hit is probably more clear for non DnD players then needing a 6 and up for a hit. Its a QoL improvement for non dnd players
61. Companions completely block movement. Hey guess what also blocks your movement in dnd? Your teammates.
62. Same party management UI in multiplayer. How is that a complaint? I mean seriously. Do people expect a totally different UI if they go into multiplayer or something?
66. No Fog of War. *sigh* the game DOES have fog of war. You can only vieuw a very limited area around your characters and unless you have LOS to creatures they are effectivly INVISIBLE to you. THAT. IS. FOG. OF. WAR.
67. Ability to keep one or more party members out of combat via Stealth. Ah I see we are putting 'players are offered tactical choices' as complaints now! What does this have to do with BG or DOS? You could do this in both of these games and im sure im plenty of other games as well.
68. No tracking of normal arrows. A QoL improvement is now complained about. Guess you want to keep in your inventory every now and again and check if you still have plenty of arrows but I think most players wont miss it.
70. Aimbotting AI (automatically knowing which party member has the ‘least’ in a defensive stat and focusing solely on them). Look up the defenition of aimbotting please. Also most games that have a sort of 'ac' system have the AI targgeting the most vunerable targets first. Its tactical sense. Why is this a complaint? Do you want braindead AI to fight against?
72. Infinitely summonable Zombie companion. Must admit I dont know what this one is about. My assumption is the 'husband' zombie from the bog? Why is putting funny and/or usefull summons in the game seen as a bad thing?

So most of this above list imho can be tossed in the trash. It either has nothing to do with DOS nor BG or is complaining for the sake of complaining. Or just outright complaining that the game is moving forward with its time rather then holding on to bg1+2 features from 20 years ago.

Comparisons to DOS
2. Origin characters vs NPC companions. Yes they do use a very simular system compared to what they used for DOS.
3. All Origin characters discovered nearly immediately in the game rather than organically throughout the entire story. Does indeed follow the same formula as DOS. But dont see that as a bad thing per se.
11. Barrelmancy. Granted, way to many barrels in the game currently. Thats also why a new thread pops up about it almost daily.
12. Surfaces *everywhere* cantrips creation 13. Surfaces having overpowered effects beyond just damage. Merged these 2. I feel that cantrips creating surfaces is indeed to powerfull and that seems to be the concensus on the forums as well. Outside of cantrips though? Outside of cantrips I havent really ran into THAT many.
15. Encounter design that assumes you are fully rested for each fight. Thats what they need EA for to balance the encounters. But currently? Agree that some of the fights are TO hard considering were supposed to be in a hurry!
16. Every fight involves flashy gimmicks and enemies using a host of special items (elemental arrows, grenades, healing potions). I must be missing something. Flashy gimmicks? I dont really see what you mean by that Enemies using tons of consumables I agree with though.
17. No normal enemies. Define 'normal' please. Because ive seen plenty most of the enemies in the game are generic normal enemies actually.
18. Reused DoS items that don’t exist in D&D 5e (Trap Kit). Agreed there. What a trap kit does you can do with thieves tools in pnp DND as well. And you also dont consume them with each lock either!
20. Enemies have insanely high HP values, needlessly lengthening combat. Agreed. Thats feedback on encounters though. Doesent make it more or less BG or DOS.
21. Chaining party members and movement system. Agreed, I personally hate the system. Specially considering how easy bg 1 and 2 managed to do multiple party member movement.
22. Shared inventory space. 23. Inventory management and UI. 24. Swap any gear on and off in combat. These 3 basicly all complain about the same thing, the current inventory UI. And agreed. Can use some work. Doesent make it more or less BG or DOS though.
26. Overly flashy effects for mundane actions (Jump, etc) Agreed. Some of the flashy animations are overly flashy for what they are doing. (jumping beeing a good example) but at the same time it makes it more visible that something is going on.

So this list was alot shorter but I do agree with alot of it. Point is though, the game is made in the divinity engine and made by Larian so obviously its going to have some simularities in areas.

Comparisons to BG
10. Exactly the same starting pattern. Start as a prisoner on the vessel (boat/nautiloid) of our mentally flogging enemies (Magisters/Mindflayer). Vessel is attacked and we must take advantage of this to escape. Only everything does not go as planned and we fall off (void/water) and we are saved from dying by a mysterious force. Then we arrive on a beach and we wake up. Proceed to small settlement nearby. Guess which game basicly has the same starting premise? Baldurs gate 2. Outside of you not beeing on a vessel or starting on a beach the intro is pretty much identical.
53. Only able to customize 1 character at the beginning. [color:#FFCCCC]Gu
ess what game you could also only customize 1 character in? Baldurs Gate.[/color]
56. Most books and item descriptions extremely short. Do me a favour. Go into baldurs gate. And grab a book or look at an item description. Whats that? You could look up item descriptions and many BG books but most were very short as well? Oh inmagine that.

List abit shorter but some of the complaints why its to much like DOS could also apply to bg.

Genuinge critcism
9. Removing Class identity by making each character a Swiss Army knife, able to do everything (converting many Actions into Bonus Actions that normally only a Rogue would have, all classes can use scrolls, all classes have massive mobility in combat due to Jump, etc.) This is something that really needs to be adressed. Giving everyone a feat that was restricted to the rogue robs both the rogue of his identity as well as unbalancing the game in other classes their favour.
50. Needing to double click to cast ‘self’ range spells. Agreed. Not sure why thats a thing at all. Although granted some spells can be cast on others as well in which case I understand it. Guess they just need to remove the un-needed confirmation.
52. No non-combat exp or reward for avoiding combat. I do notice xp for conversations sometimes but agree that non-combat options should be equally rewarded.
57. No need to identify magic items. Agreed. Needs to be added.
59. Being able to right click on an enemy an ‘examine’ them to learn all of their stats. Agreed. Needs to be removed. Thats a fighter subclass (Champion I believe) feature and shouldnt be available to everyone! That said, seems like a left over feature from the engine.
60. Moving cursor around a target can change whether you hit the target or the ranged attack is intercepted. Yup, agreed. Its because of the way in which line of sight can be drawn. Incidentily also why magic missles can miss, which shouldnt be the case!
63. No day/night cycle, it’s always the same time of day in the location. Agree that its inclusion would be better.
64. Cannot adjust starting gear. Agreed. Should be defenitly changed.
65. Overabundance of magic items that remove the need to pick certain spells or abilities (Amulets for Speak with Dead, Misty Step, staff with Create Water, etc.). Agreed but at the same time I can see the reason why. Adding memorable things that dont really give you an over powered imbalance but have some nice quirks fits in nicely with DnD. But it shouldnt overpower the usefullness for having spellcasters with those features either. Tough to balance those 2 things.
71. No random encounters. We dont know that. From what we have seen in the EA so far, sure. However we dont know whatever or not they would actually be in the final game or not.

So these I would classify as genuine criticism. It doesent have much to with simularities between DOS or BG though. Some of these should be added imo and a few are things that they are working on while others ive seen no mention off.

Potential bugs/things that still need to be adressed
4. World full of meaningless items. 5. World full of meaningless containers/locked chest with very little of value in them. Merged these 2. Item placement in the game is something that needs to be done but imo obviously something that simply isent done yet during EA.
25. Screen shake on ability selection, regardless of activation. Havent noticed this myself. Maybe a craphical glitch?
28. Swap spells nearly at-will. Admit, lac of that doesent seem to be like an intentional feature imo. Picking spells by day is a big DnD feature.
30. Being knocked prone ends your turn. Seems like a bug, it shouldnt.
32. Overpowering low level characters via magic items (Doubling Magic Missiles damage). Made mention of these myself. But overall game feedbacl. Not something that makes it DOS or BG per se....
36. Normal attack with duel-wielding weapons attacks with both at the same time. Seems like a bug? Considering you get a 'attack with off hand' ability if you dual wield its probably a graphical thing or hasent been seperated from how dual wielding works in DOS.
37. Reused ability names and animations (Great Weapon Master is called “All In”) Well if you have an abilitiy that basicly does the same thing a quik reskin or name swap doesent seem like a bad idea. If anything, it saves development time!
39. Same blocky item reveal UI that doesn’t actually show the item (pressing Alt) 40. Same revealing a hidden item graphic. Combined these 2. Yeah alt needs to light up everything that you can interact with. Not sure why its not doing that currently but my guess is a incomplete feature.
41. Terrible pathing that will lead to allies unintentionally walking over surfaces and traps. Think this is a bug. As the AI dident have this problem in DOS.
51. Inability to target party members for spells/abilities via their portrait. Guess we can chalk that up to a bug or missing feature. Considering you can click on a portrait and it confirms that its an option but currently isent working makes me think its just needs to be fixed.
54. Excessively long ‘AI thinking’ delays in combat. Think thats a bug. Only had it happen once myself and every other time it takes its turns pretty quikly.
69. Wallhack scouting via camera manipulation. Camera very obviously needs tweaking and/or overhaul. Its abit finicky atm and defenitly not working as intended.

So as the header 'potential bugs/things that still need to be adressed' implies..... The game is in EA. Theres bound to be bugs and unfinished features in it. Thats why we are participating in the EA and helping them find their features. And if you dont want to, well they gave everyone some very clear warnings about the state of the game so if you missed that its on you tbh.... Feel free to come back later at a stage where its more done or even when its fully launched if you dont want to see half-finished features.

So looking back over half of the list could be tossed in the trash in my opinion (generic complaints) while alot of the other points have merit but most are not specificly tied to BG or DOS. They use the same engine (that they made themselves) for Divinity so ofcourse it will look alike in some areas. Plenty of dnd features (like missing actions for example) just seem to not have been added yet and others (like most of the things in the last bug list) dont seem to be intentional. The game has been in EA for, what. 3 weeks? While they said they would need a year at the very least. Give Larian some time to take in the feedback and actually put in work to get things into the game.
Please Demoulius, let's try to be honnest when you're answering...
This kind of backstab is not a part of D&D... Or maybe you didn't try a lot of things in BG3....

Stop saying everything is perfect, because nothing really is and that's a fact...
Of course I won't argue with you about every points but many of your answers are a little bit ridiculous, and I'm sure you know it.
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Orbax
Now make one for how its like BG 1/2 and then a third one of what they need to change laugh


Hi Orbax, it’s me again smile

To find what’s BG2 just do this math

BG2 = BG3^(-1)

That’s the equation smile

Now, being serious, BG1&2 is a clean game. It’s like getting an rock and cutting it into a diamond. BG3 feels like you had a diamond and decided to put it into a necklace with multicolored chains. Too much information. Feel incredibly unpolished.

There’s this phrase that links to BG1/2 perfecly

A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

I don’t feel that in BG3 & DOS series

Hope you understand my artistic point of view



That does paint a picture, but it also leaves one asking Claude Monet if he can make his pictures more like picasso but still keep that monet feeling


If Da Vinci claims that he’ll do La Creazione 3, you’ll definitely not expect god reaching hands with Gioconda :P
This conversation is not fruitful:

We like onions
We’ve been offered onions, we got tomatoes
We don’t like tomatoes
Other people likes tomatoes
We’re complaining that we didn’t like the tomatoes we’ve got
Others enjoyed receiving tomatoes Instead of onions
Some of the others are raging against us saying that tomatoes are good
We don’t like tomatoes.

We’ll get nowhere.

God, how I miss onions
Originally Posted by Demoulius
*snip*


I am going to read them all, believe me. If any have good points, happy to include! I am still on the fence regarding specifically delineating out otherwise potentially similar factors (Reliance on Environment being a general factor versus the specifics factors of Height, barrelmancy, etc.). In general, I tried to keep the broad factors as they typically tend to be provided as a chief factor, while specific factors have tended to receive extremely specific discussion.

However, to answer your very first statement, I do not believe that you fully read the title and introductory paragraph. So let me emphasize the part I am referencing:

"...this is not for stating changes to the base rules of 5e or even decrying some of these elements."

Decrying - the present participle of Decry, to publicly denounce.

This was not written as, nor ever intended to be, a list of complaints. It is intended to be a list of factors, that combine to provide something people can point to as reference to the claim that BG 3 currently feels too much like playing a DoS game instead of a BG game. For example, I actually prefer TB to RTwP, to the point where the TB mod for PKM salvaged that game for me. But I don't deny that it is a factor in why BG 3 can feel like DoS 3, even if I agree with the change and don't feel like it is something Larian needs to change.

The fact that you immediately assumed it is a list of complaints is telling, but I will nonetheless review as best I can. My intent is for the list to become an all inclusive list of what players are noticing as similar factors, then be narrowed down into things that can/should be changed and ones that cannot/should not by Larian.
Posted By: Zefhyr Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 28/10/20 10:36 PM
An amazing job, excellent summarize.
Thank you for your work.

Demoulius, I'm sry I didn't read all your last post but it's for a good reason I hope you will understand.
You absolutely don't get the poitn about this thread.

Here is why I stopped to read after 4 or 5 points...
You said :
Originally Posted by Demoulius

1. Choice of color palette. I mean.... Ok? Bg 1 and 2 were pretty dark in a lot of places. Why is this a complaint exactly?


This psot is NOT ABOUT COMPLAIN, it's about showing what didn't feel like BG. This is not about COMPLAINING, this is about RECORDING what make BG3 not feel like a BG-game.

So you should have said : "1. Choice of color palette. I mean.... Ok." and that's all, cause there is nothing more to say.
I did somthing funny. I search the word "complain" in your post. You used it more than 20 times
How many times the OP used it in his post ? Not even once.
Did you get it ? Most of your post is off-topic and most of it just confirm what the OP said.


You are completely this guy who wants to convince us to like tomatoes when we just said tomatoes are not onions...

God, how I miss onions too...
Posted By: ulric Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 28/10/20 10:57 PM
+1.
I find all my criticism points in this list.
Great list.
Originally Posted by Demoulius
*snip*

So what I see is that the list can basicly be summed up in a variety of categories. Complaints. And often generic ones at that. Points where the game compares alot to DOS. Points where it compares to BG, but the opinion is that theres to little of these. And things that either seem to be bugs, incomplete features or things that just need to be adressed. Which is what the EA is for. Il list some feedback by each points why I do or do not see the merit behind it.

Generic complaints
1. Choice of color palette. I mean.... Ok? Bg 1 and 2 were pretty dark in a lot of places. Why is this a complaint exactly?
6. Battles based in the environment and not in Character Class. 7. Height (King of the Hill gameplay) Combined these 2 because they are literally the same. Height giving advantage is a VERY frequently mentioned point of critisim. BG dident even have heigh (or lack thereof) so uh.... You all want a flatt world or something?
8. Backstab (only lacking the ground indicator from DoS). Uh. Yeah? They use the same engine. Also its a dnd 5e rule. Attacking someone who cant see you gives you advantage. Whats the complaint?
14. Food everywhere that is better healing than everything else. Food defenitly isent better then the greater or superior healing potions so this is just outright false.
27. Stealth sight cones. Why is this a complaint? It allows one to make use of stealth. Seriously why are the vision cones a complaint?
29. Limited to 1 summon per character. Might be for balance reasons, or engine related. There also arent many classes outside of necromancer or conjurers who can actually get multiple minions.
31. Turn Based vs Real Time with Pause. The game is based on 5th ed dnd. Dnd is turn based. Making it real time would mean things like reactions etc would need major overhauls or simply wouldnt work. Cant run away from a melee threat as a wizard while also casting spells for example, which you CAN do in turn based.
33. Closeup character models for Portraits. Ive seen multiple games that use this system. Whats the complaint exactly?
34. Teleportation fast travel accessible from anywhere. Fast travel is a QoL improvement. I mean. Why are these things issues that people complain about? If you dont like it just walk everywhere. THAT IS AN OPTION. You dont have to fast travel....
35. Narrator’s voice is Malady from DoS 2. Ok. So they used a voice actor they got experience working with? Why would this make it more or less BG or DOS? Cant they use ANY of the voice actors that have worked in their previous games?
38. Same highlighting mechanic of climbable surfaces. Its literally the same engine.
42. Merchant UI. What about it. Dont like it? Got improvements for it? What? Whats the complaint? Honestly the merchant UI from bg was dreadfull so I dont know why this would be something to complain about?
43. Giving free items to the merchant increases your ‘likeable’ score for that merchant, resulting in lower prices. Ok. So they got a barter system? What about it? Want to suggest improvements? BG actually dident give you a chance to barter so I guess that means its more closely tied to DOS but..... Why is the fact that you can raise rep in place of a barter system a bad thing?
44. Stealing from someone with one character while you are talking to them with another character. 19. Succeeding on a thieving check but the target magically knows you stole from them a few seconds later. Merged these 2 as they focus on the same thing.Yeah? What did you expect that you can rob them of everything up to and including their underwear and they would never notice?
45. Giant contiguous maps rather than small and more discrete maps. You dont like it I guess? What does this have to do with either BG or DOS though?
46. 4 party limit. Dnd is balanced around 4 man parties. Dont know what to tell you.
47. Same map and minimap UI (showing interactable ground, map markers) SAME. ENGINE.
48. Hotbar UI. What bout it. You know what also had a hotbar? BG.
49. Resurrection mechanics, animation (being able to magically teleport someone when resurrecting them) seriously what the everliving **$_ why is this a complaint? What does this have to do with BG or DOS?
55. Lockpicking progress bar. Why is this a complaint?
58. Showing the percentage to-hit. Anyone who can do basic math and who understands how they can calculate odds will know that a die results can be directly translated to a percentage. 75% to hit is probably more clear for non DnD players then needing a 6 and up for a hit. Its a QoL improvement for non dnd players
61. Companions completely block movement. Hey guess what also blocks your movement in dnd? Your teammates.
62. Same party management UI in multiplayer. How is that a complaint? I mean seriously. Do people expect a totally different UI if they go into multiplayer or something?
66. No Fog of War. *sigh* the game DOES have fog of war. You can only vieuw a very limited area around your characters and unless you have LOS to creatures they are effectivly INVISIBLE to you. THAT. IS. FOG. OF. WAR.
67. Ability to keep one or more party members out of combat via Stealth. Ah I see we are putting 'players are offered tactical choices' as complaints now! What does this have to do with BG or DOS? You could do this in both of these games and im sure im plenty of other games as well.
68. No tracking of normal arrows. A QoL improvement is now complained about. Guess you want to keep in your inventory every now and again and check if you still have plenty of arrows but I think most players wont miss it.
70. Aimbotting AI (automatically knowing which party member has the ‘least’ in a defensive stat and focusing solely on them). Look up the defenition of aimbotting please. Also most games that have a sort of 'ac' system have the AI targgeting the most vunerable targets first. Its tactical sense. Why is this a complaint? Do you want braindead AI to fight against?
72. Infinitely summonable Zombie companion. Must admit I dont know what this one is about. My assumption is the 'husband' zombie from the bog? Why is putting funny and/or usefull summons in the game seen as a bad thing?

So most of this above list imho can be tossed in the trash. It either has nothing to do with DOS nor BG or is complaining for the sake of complaining. Or just outright complaining that the game is moving forward with its time rather then holding on to bg1+2 features from 20 years ago.

Comparisons to DOS
2. Origin characters vs NPC companions. Yes they do use a very simular system compared to what they used for DOS.
3. All Origin characters discovered nearly immediately in the game rather than organically throughout the entire story. Does indeed follow the same formula as DOS. But dont see that as a bad thing per se.
11. Barrelmancy. Granted, way to many barrels in the game currently. Thats also why a new thread pops up about it almost daily.
12. Surfaces *everywhere* cantrips creation 13. Surfaces having overpowered effects beyond just damage. Merged these 2. I feel that cantrips creating surfaces is indeed to powerfull and that seems to be the concensus on the forums as well. Outside of cantrips though? Outside of cantrips I havent really ran into THAT many.
15. Encounter design that assumes you are fully rested for each fight. Thats what they need EA for to balance the encounters. But currently? Agree that some of the fights are TO hard considering were supposed to be in a hurry!
16. Every fight involves flashy gimmicks and enemies using a host of special items (elemental arrows, grenades, healing potions). I must be missing something. Flashy gimmicks? I dont really see what you mean by that Enemies using tons of consumables I agree with though.
17. No normal enemies. Define 'normal' please. Because ive seen plenty most of the enemies in the game are generic normal enemies actually.
18. Reused DoS items that don’t exist in D&D 5e (Trap Kit). Agreed there. What a trap kit does you can do with thieves tools in pnp DND as well. And you also dont consume them with each lock either!
20. Enemies have insanely high HP values, needlessly lengthening combat. Agreed. Thats feedback on encounters though. Doesent make it more or less BG or DOS.
21. Chaining party members and movement system. Agreed, I personally hate the system. Specially considering how easy bg 1 and 2 managed to do multiple party member movement.
22. Shared inventory space. 23. Inventory management and UI. 24. Swap any gear on and off in combat. These 3 basicly all complain about the same thing, the current inventory UI. And agreed. Can use some work. Doesent make it more or less BG or DOS though.
26. Overly flashy effects for mundane actions (Jump, etc) Agreed. Some of the flashy animations are overly flashy for what they are doing. (jumping beeing a good example) but at the same time it makes it more visible that something is going on.

So this list was alot shorter but I do agree with alot of it. Point is though, the game is made in the divinity engine and made by Larian so obviously its going to have some simularities in areas.

Comparisons to BG
10. Exactly the same starting pattern. Start as a prisoner on the vessel (boat/nautiloid) of our mentally flogging enemies (Magisters/Mindflayer). Vessel is attacked and we must take advantage of this to escape. Only everything does not go as planned and we fall off (void/water) and we are saved from dying by a mysterious force. Then we arrive on a beach and we wake up. Proceed to small settlement nearby. Guess which game basicly has the same starting premise? Baldurs gate 2. Outside of you not beeing on a vessel or starting on a beach the intro is pretty much identical.
53. Only able to customize 1 character at the beginning. [color:#FFCCCC]Gu
ess what game you could also only customize 1 character in? Baldurs Gate.[/color]
56. Most books and item descriptions extremely short. Do me a favour. Go into baldurs gate. And grab a book or look at an item description. Whats that? You could look up item descriptions and many BG books but most were very short as well? Oh inmagine that.

List abit shorter but some of the complaints why its to much like DOS could also apply to bg.

Genuinge critcism
9. Removing Class identity by making each character a Swiss Army knife, able to do everything (converting many Actions into Bonus Actions that normally only a Rogue would have, all classes can use scrolls, all classes have massive mobility in combat due to Jump, etc.) This is something that really needs to be adressed. Giving everyone a feat that was restricted to the rogue robs both the rogue of his identity as well as unbalancing the game in other classes their favour.
50. Needing to double click to cast ‘self’ range spells. Agreed. Not sure why thats a thing at all. Although granted some spells can be cast on others as well in which case I understand it. Guess they just need to remove the un-needed confirmation.
52. No non-combat exp or reward for avoiding combat. I do notice xp for conversations sometimes but agree that non-combat options should be equally rewarded.
57. No need to identify magic items. Agreed. Needs to be added.
59. Being able to right click on an enemy an ‘examine’ them to learn all of their stats. Agreed. Needs to be removed. Thats a fighter subclass (Champion I believe) feature and shouldnt be available to everyone! That said, seems like a left over feature from the engine.
60. Moving cursor around a target can change whether you hit the target or the ranged attack is intercepted. Yup, agreed. Its because of the way in which line of sight can be drawn. Incidentily also why magic missles can miss, which shouldnt be the case!
63. No day/night cycle, it’s always the same time of day in the location. Agree that its inclusion would be better.
64. Cannot adjust starting gear. Agreed. Should be defenitly changed.
65. Overabundance of magic items that remove the need to pick certain spells or abilities (Amulets for Speak with Dead, Misty Step, staff with Create Water, etc.). Agreed but at the same time I can see the reason why. Adding memorable things that dont really give you an over powered imbalance but have some nice quirks fits in nicely with DnD. But it shouldnt overpower the usefullness for having spellcasters with those features either. Tough to balance those 2 things.
71. No random encounters. We dont know that. From what we have seen in the EA so far, sure. However we dont know whatever or not they would actually be in the final game or not.

So these I would classify as genuine criticism. It doesent have much to with simularities between DOS or BG though. Some of these should be added imo and a few are things that they are working on while others ive seen no mention off.

Potential bugs/things that still need to be adressed
4. World full of meaningless items. 5. World full of meaningless containers/locked chest with very little of value in them. Merged these 2. Item placement in the game is something that needs to be done but imo obviously something that simply isent done yet during EA.
25. Screen shake on ability selection, regardless of activation. Havent noticed this myself. Maybe a craphical glitch?
28. Swap spells nearly at-will. Admit, lac of that doesent seem to be like an intentional feature imo. Picking spells by day is a big DnD feature.
30. Being knocked prone ends your turn. Seems like a bug, it shouldnt.
32. Overpowering low level characters via magic items (Doubling Magic Missiles damage). Made mention of these myself. But overall game feedbacl. Not something that makes it DOS or BG per se....
36. Normal attack with duel-wielding weapons attacks with both at the same time. Seems like a bug? Considering you get a 'attack with off hand' ability if you dual wield its probably a graphical thing or hasent been seperated from how dual wielding works in DOS.
37. Reused ability names and animations (Great Weapon Master is called “All In”) Well if you have an abilitiy that basicly does the same thing a quik reskin or name swap doesent seem like a bad idea. If anything, it saves development time!
39. Same blocky item reveal UI that doesn’t actually show the item (pressing Alt) 40. Same revealing a hidden item graphic. Combined these 2. Yeah alt needs to light up everything that you can interact with. Not sure why its not doing that currently but my guess is a incomplete feature.
41. Terrible pathing that will lead to allies unintentionally walking over surfaces and traps. Think this is a bug. As the AI dident have this problem in DOS.
51. Inability to target party members for spells/abilities via their portrait. Guess we can chalk that up to a bug or missing feature. Considering you can click on a portrait and it confirms that its an option but currently isent working makes me think its just needs to be fixed.
54. Excessively long ‘AI thinking’ delays in combat. Think thats a bug. Only had it happen once myself and every other time it takes its turns pretty quikly.
69. Wallhack scouting via camera manipulation. Camera very obviously needs tweaking and/or overhaul. Its abit finicky atm and defenitly not working as intended.

So as the header 'potential bugs/things that still need to be adressed' implies..... The game is in EA. Theres bound to be bugs and unfinished features in it. Thats why we are participating in the EA and helping them find their features. And if you dont want to, well they gave everyone some very clear warnings about the state of the game so if you missed that its on you tbh.... Feel free to come back later at a stage where its more done or even when its fully launched if you dont want to see half-finished features.

So looking back over half of the list could be tossed in the trash in my opinion (generic complaints) while alot of the other points have merit but most are not specificly tied to BG or DOS. They use the same engine (that they made themselves) for Divinity so ofcourse it will look alike in some areas. Plenty of dnd features (like missing actions for example) just seem to not have been added yet and others (like most of the things in the last bug list) dont seem to be intentional. The game has been in EA for, what. 3 weeks? While they said they would need a year at the very least. Give Larian some time to take in the feedback and actually put in work to get things into the game.


I will ignore several general responses you provided:
- Responses that questioned why something was a complaint, because none of them are complaints.
- Responses that some things should have been compressed because I'm trying to strike a balance of including both General and Specific factors, with specific factors being broken out when there appears to be sufficient focus on it in this forum and Discord.

Lastly, my responses are not in numerical order but rather in the order you provided.

#29. This is categorically false, least of which because the Beast Master Ranger *in the EA* already runs into this problem by not being able to have their Find Familiar and Animal Companion at the same time. Never mind when spells like Conjure Animals, Find Steed, etc. comes into play. This restriction to 1 summon is a feature of DoS and does not exist in BG, where you were only limited by the capabilities of the engine at the time. Do note, that the DoS engine is perfectly capable of having more than 1 companion (Glut's army), so the restriction is clearly intentional by Larian.

#35. Already breaking my rule above, but the complete overabundance of British accents is also something I meant to include, but decided to make it specifically regarding Malady. You will notice I did not write the factor that they reused Amelia Tyler. It's that they had her do the *exact* Malady voice. Having the exact same voice from DoS in your ear, without any changes at all, is objectively a factor that makes you feel like the game is more DoS and BG. Amelia is an incredibly talented voice actress who is more than capable of varying her voice to be a different character. The choice to have her repeat the sounds of Malady was a conscious decision and consequently is a factor on the list.

#46. First, that is incorrect. D&D is not balanced around a 4 person party. Specifically, it if balanced for between 3-5 (based on the DMG), and WotC published adventures assume 4-5 players. Moreover, the BG series is well known for being 6 characters, while DoS is known for being 4 characters. Neither game has those as exclusive factors, but both those statements are true. So on the list it goes. Ironically, making it be 5 characters would make the game more 'unique', though 6 would make it more BG.

#48. This factor was tweaked slightly to better emphasize the specific factor. See the previous posts in this thread.

#58. You are correct regarding the capability to do the math....except no. Because the math requires you to know both your to-hit chance and the enemy's AC values, neither of which are immediately apparent. Again, not complaints, just factors. You do bring up a good point though that I will add to the factors, which is that you have full access to the stats of the enemy just by Examining the target (with the caveat that DoS did require you to level up a particular skill to get more information, while BG did not allow that at all).

#61. Incorrect, which leads me to believe you don't really know the rules of 5e. Which is fine because that's not what this discussion is about. Companions block movement in DoS, they don't in BG.

#66. That is both wrong (you can see creatures well before you party can) and not what Fog of War references.

#70. Admittedly I knew 'aimbotting' is not an accurate term, taking suggestions on something that better conveys the factor. Enemy AI perfect knowledge? This remains a factor, more so because DoS literally patched this exactly factor because every enemy had essentially Max stats for knowing the characters statistics. But it still famously happens in DoS and does not happen in BG, so it's a factor.

#17. Normal enemies refers to enemies that do nothing more than attack with their weapon, without any special moves, abilities, consumables, or throwables. BG had plenty of enemies like this, DoS practically had none. So its a factor.

#10. Not really sure how to respond to this besides agreeing with your statement of facts but disagreeing with the conclusions you draw? I listed roughly 10 elements to this factor (start as prisoner, on a vessel, mentally based enemies, etc.). BG 3 shares all 10 elements with DoS. BG 1 shares zero of those elements. BG 2 shares two as best I can count (prisoner, freed by outside attack). So across 20 possible times to have those elements occur in the introductory areas of BG 1 and BG 2, it occurred 2 times. In DoS it correct 10 out of 10, in BG 3, also 10 out of 10. That's why it's a factor, and that's why the most commonly typed response in chat when Swen did the first gameplay reveal was BEACH BEACH BEACH.

#53. Did you actually play BG 1 and BG 2? You could literally make a party of entirely custom characters.

#56. Again, this is just wrong. Here is a link to the books provided in the BG series. Please just do a spot sampling. History/lore Books in DoS, and BG 3, are a few sentences at most and usually contain text in < > brackets to indicate a summary. Compare that to your spot sampling, where there are several paragraphs of lore for each book in BG. Ironically, this can easily flip from a DoS factor to a BG factor if Larian just copy + pastes the lore text and then updates them based on 'current events' at this point in the Faerun timeline.

Hopefully I didn't miss any!
One area I feel definitely needs attention is enemy reactions when attacked by a stealthed character.

I’m finishing up the Underdark running the whole thing with just a Drow rogue in my party without any of the npc’s. I’ve only rested in camp once to boot. This is primarily due to the fact that monsters just stand there and do nothing if they don’t see who’s attacking them, so you can just snipe and hide until all of the enemies are dead. It’s a little time consuming, but it’s actually easier than running a full party 4.
I’d like to see monsters / enemies roam in a random direction if they’re being attacked and don’t see the attacker. This will at least force the player to reposition and potentially lose a “prime sniping spot”. It would also create the chance the monster / enemy would randomly advance toward the player.

I’d just like to see a little more difficulty when fighting 2 minotaurs at the same time than watching them stand there and become horsey pin-cushions.
Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
To be clear, this is not for stating changes to the base rules of 5e or even decrying some of these elements. This is to create a master list of all the elements of the game that make it ‘feel’ like a DoS game, rather than a Baldur’s Gate/D&D game, given that it is such a popular forum topic. I also acknowledge that I have shamelessly stolen many of these items from other posters, I cannot thank you all enough. Generally speaking, here is the logical process I used for inclusion on this list:

Step 1 - Was the 'thing' something that does exist in DoS?
Step 2 - Was the 'thing' something that is well known for existing in DoS?
Step 3 - Was the 'thing' something that does exist in BG?
Step 4 - Was the 'thing' something that is well known for existing in BG?
Step 5 - How often have I experienced the 'thing' being discussed?

I will keep this list updated if people wish to add to/remove from it:

1. Choice of color palette
2. Origin characters vs NPC companions
3. All Origin characters discovered nearly immediately in the game rather than organically throughout the entire story.
4. World full of meaningless items
5. World full of meaningless containers/locked chest with very little of value in them
6. Battles based in the environment and not in Character Class
7. Height (King of the Hill gameplay)
8. Backstab (only lacking the ground indicator from DoS)
9. Removing Class identity by making each character a Swiss Army knife, able to do everything (converting many Actions into Bonus Actions that normally only a Rogue would have, all classes can use scrolls, all classes have massive mobility in combat due to Jump, etc.)
10. Exactly the same starting pattern. Start as a prisoner on the vessel (boat/nautiloid) of our mentally flogging enemies (Magisters/Mindflayer). Vessel is attacked and we must take advantage of this to escape. Only everything does not go as planned and we fall off (void/water) and we are saved from dying by a mysterious force. Then we arrive on a beach and we wake up. Proceed to small settlement nearby.
11. Barrelmancy
12. Surfaces *everywhere*
13. Surfaces having overpowered effects beyond just damage
14. Food everywhere that is better healing than everything else
15. Encounter design that assumes you are fully rested for each fight.
16. Every fight involves flashy gimmicks and enemies using a host of special items (elemental arrows, grenades, healing potions)
17. No normal enemies
18. Reused DoS items that don’t exist in D&D 5e (Trap Kit)
19. Succeeding on a thieving check but the target magically knows you stole from them a few seconds later.
20. Enemies have insanely high HP values, needlessly lengthening combat
21. Chaining party members and movement system
22. Shared inventory space
23. Inventory management and UI
24. Swap any gear on and off in combat
25. Screen shake on ability selection, regardless of activation
26. Overly flashy effects for mundane actions (Jump, etc)
27. Stealth sight cones
28. Swap spells nearly at-will
29. Limited to 1 summon per character
30. Being knocked prone ends your turn
31. Turn Based vs Real Time with Pause
32. Overpowering low level characters via magic items (Doubling Magic Missiles damage)
33. Closeup character models for Portraits
34. Teleportation fast travel accessible from anywhere
35. Narrator’s voice is Malady from DoS 2
36. Normal attack with duel-wielding weapons attacks with both at the same time
37. Reused ability names and animations (Great Weapon Master is called “All In”)
38. Same highlighting mechanic of climbable surfaces
39. Same blocky item reveal UI that doesn’t actually show the item (pressing Alt)
40. Same revealing a hidden item graphic
41. Terrible pathing that will lead to allies unintentionally walking over surfaces and traps
42. Merchant UI
43. Giving free items to the merchant increases your ‘likeable’ score for that merchant, resulting in lower prices
44. Stealing from someone with one character while you are talking to them with another character
45. Giant contiguous maps rather than small and more discrete maps
46. 4 party limit
47. Same map and minimap UI (showing interactable ground, map markers)
48. Hotbar UI (primarily functionality)
49. Resurrection mechanics, animation (being able to magically teleport someone when resurrecting them)
50. Needing to double click to cast ‘self’ range spells
51. Inability to target party members for spells/abilities via their portrait
52. No non-combat exp or reward for avoiding combat
53. Only able to customize 1 character at the beginning
54. Excessively long ‘AI thinking’ delays in combat
55. Lockpicking progress bar
56. Most books and item descriptions extremely short
57. No need to identify magic items
58. Showing the percentage to-hit
59. Being able to right click on an enemy an ‘examine’ them to learn all of their stats
60. Moving cursor around a target can change whether you hit the target or the ranged attack is intercepted.
61. Companions completely block movement
62. Same party management UI in multiplayer
63. No day/night cycle, it’s always the same time of day in the location
64. Cannot adjust starting gear
65. Overabundance of magic items that remove the need to pick certain spells or abilities (Amulets for Speak with Dead, Misty Step, staff with Create Water, etc.)
66. No Fog of War
67. Ability to keep one or more party members out of combat via Stealth
68. No tracking of normal arrows
69. Wallhack scouting via camera manipulation
70. Aimbotting AI (automatically knowing which party member has the ‘least’ in a defensive stat and focusing solely on them)
71. No random encounters
72. Infinitely summonable Zombie companion
*edits below*
73. Access to enemy statistics by "Examining" them. (Note: DoS has this mechanic but locks some information behind spending points a particular skill, while BG did not have this at all).




Sadly yes. smirk
Originally Posted by PMSbloodrage
One area I feel definitely needs attention is enemy reactions when attacked by a stealthed character.

I’m finishing up the Underdark running the whole thing with just a Drow rogue in my party without any of the npc’s. I’ve only rested in camp once to boot. This is primarily due to the fact that monsters just stand there and do nothing if they don’t see who’s attacking them, so you can just snipe and hide until all of the enemies are dead. It’s a little time consuming, but it’s actually easier than running a full party 4.
I’d like to see monsters / enemies roam in a random direction if they’re being attacked and don’t see the attacker. This will at least force the player to reposition and potentially lose a “prime sniping spot”. It would also create the chance the monster / enemy would randomly advance toward the player.

I’d just like to see a little more difficulty when fighting 2 minotaurs at the same time than watching them stand there and become horsey pin-cushions.


Definitely agree that would be a nice improvement, but I really didn't feel like that was a think that was known for existing in DoS and also *not* known for existing in BG. You could do it in both games and I haven't seen much discussion referencing a lack of response to stealth characters in the DoS 3 discussions. If I see it crop up more I'm happy to add it.
I love this list.
I love the idea.
I love the thread.
I hope Larian will pay attention.
Posted By: Vaell Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 29/10/20 04:12 AM
Excellent list. I like to think i have an eye for detail and i overlooked several of these. Larian needs to see this list and adjust every single one of them.
I've shamelessly stolen from multiple authors but Endolex deserves special recognition for demonstrating the audible difference a BG based theme would sound like -> https://soundcloud.com/endolex/baldurs-gate-iii-alternate-main-menu-arrangement
Posted By: Zefhyr Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 29/10/20 10:06 AM
Excellent theme.
I'm not saying I don't like the actual one.

But I'll prefer this one to the male voice we have.
Posted By: Lumign Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 29/10/20 10:12 AM
I wanna ask,

technically which of the list can be changed by mod, and which can't be (or very difficult)?
Excellent list.

Originally Posted by Orbax
Now make one for how its like BG 1/2 and then a third one of what they need to change laugh


I think it would be much more useful to state the differences between BG3 and D&D 5e since it's actually something that can be aimed at Larian since they stated that BG3 would be a faithful adaptation of D&D 5e but never really said it would be a BG1/2 clone. On that note I would love it to be not only faithful to 5e but also take into account the overall atmosphere and choices that were made in the original BGs. Instead we have a colourful candy land world narrated by what seems like a porn actress and horrible writing where everyone wants to sex CHARNAME. Mostly looks like the game is targeted to edgy pre-teens.
Originally Posted by coredumped
Excellent list.

Originally Posted by Orbax
Now make one for how its like BG 1/2 and then a third one of what they need to change laugh


I think it would be much more useful to state the differences between BG3 and D&D 5e since it's actually something that can be aimed at Larian since they stated that BG3 would be a faithful adaptation of D&D 5e but never really said it would be a BG1/2 clone. On that note I would love it to be not only faithful to 5e but also take into account the overall atmosphere and choices that were made in the original BGs. Instead we have a colourful candy land world narrated by what seems like a porn actress and horrible writing where everyone wants to sex CHARNAME. Mostly looks like the game is targeted to edgy pre-teens.

Which choices? What if the choices they choose to run with run counter to what you chose? Then there's the whole "It's Act I" thing. I have yet to play any video game that laid out it's entire narrative that fast. That's akin to "why didn't we have to "take back Earth" in Mass Effect 1" to me.
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by coredumped
Excellent list.

Originally Posted by Orbax
Now make one for how its like BG 1/2 and then a third one of what they need to change laugh


I think it would be much more useful to state the differences between BG3 and D&D 5e since it's actually something that can be aimed at Larian since they stated that BG3 would be a faithful adaptation of D&D 5e but never really said it would be a BG1/2 clone. On that note I would love it to be not only faithful to 5e but also take into account the overall atmosphere and choices that were made in the original BGs. Instead we have a colourful candy land world narrated by what seems like a porn actress and horrible writing where everyone wants to sex CHARNAME. Mostly looks like the game is targeted to edgy pre-teens.

Which choices? What if the choices they choose to run with run counter to what you chose? Then there's the whole "It's Act I" thing. I have yet to play any video game that laid out it's entire narrative that fast. That's akin to "why didn't we have to "take back Earth" in Mass Effect 1" to me.


By choices I mean overall design decisions, not things you choose as the player.
Great list op.
Posted By: Abits Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 29/10/20 02:47 PM
Most of this list is kinda useless. some of these things are not bad to have, some are genuine problems, and some are somewhere in between. but without any context, I'm not sure what you expect Larian to do with it.
Posted By: luciant Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 29/10/20 03:36 PM
of course it 'feels like' Divinity Original Sin 2-- to think that it wasn't going to is asinine.

All of you are forgetting SIMPLE FACTS;
1) Wizards of the Coast chose Larian because they loved DoS2 and WANTED their IP to be handled by the same company.
2) Larian Studios made DoS2 and are making BG3 using assets (engine, code, art, etc) from DoS2
3) BG1 and BG2 were made on OLD technology, were based on a different ruleset, made by a different development team, and most importantly WERENT EVEN TURN BASED (real time with pause is not a substitute for turn based).

these facts should have made it overwhelmingly clear that BG3 was going to be VERY different than 1 & 2. Likewise it should stand to reason that if you did not like DoS2 you will probably not enjoy this game either, you should have considered that BEFORE spending your money.

I get that there are plenty of people out there that are fans of D&D (old editions and new) that want a true rules as written game, but to expect that from this again is pretty stupid. To reiterate see point 1 above- WotC chose Larian.
Posted By: Abits Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 29/10/20 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by luciant
of course it 'feels like' Divinity Original Sin 2-- to think that it wasn't going to is asinine.

All of you are forgetting SIMPLE FACTS;
1) Wizards of the Coast chose Larian because they loved DoS2 and WANTED their IP to be handled by the same company.
2) Larian Studios made DoS2 and are making BG3 using assets (engine, code, art, etc) from DoS2
3) BG1 and BG2 were made on OLD technology, were based on a different ruleset, made by a different development team, and most importantly WERENT EVEN TURN BASED (real time with pause is not a substitute for turn based).

these facts should have made it overwhelmingly clear that BG3 was going to be VERY different than 1 & 2. Likewise it should stand to reason that if you did not like DoS2 you will probably not enjoy this game either, you should have considered that BEFORE spending your money.

I get that there are plenty of people out there that are fans of D&D (old editions and new) that want a true rules as written game, but to expect that from this again is pretty stupid. To reiterate see point 1 above- WotC chose Larian.

+1 wanted to write it but was too lazy lol
Posted By: Roarro Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 29/10/20 06:34 PM
Originally Posted by luciant
of course it 'feels like' Divinity Original Sin 2-- to think that it wasn't going to is asinine.

All of you are forgetting SIMPLE FACTS;
1) Wizards of the Coast chose Larian because they loved DoS2 and WANTED their IP to be handled by the same company.
2) Larian Studios made DoS2 and are making BG3 using assets (engine, code, art, etc) from DoS2
3) BG1 and BG2 were made on OLD technology, were based on a different ruleset, made by a different development team, and most importantly WERENT EVEN TURN BASED (real time with pause is not a substitute for turn based).

these facts should have made it overwhelmingly clear that BG3 was going to be VERY different than 1 & 2. Likewise it should stand to reason that if you did not like DoS2 you will probably not enjoy this game either, you should have considered that BEFORE spending your money.

I get that there are plenty of people out there that are fans of D&D (old editions and new) that want a true rules as written game, but to expect that from this again is pretty stupid. To reiterate see point 1 above- WotC chose Larian.

Simple fact is also that we are the clients-we can ask for the game we wan't to play. Like what's wrong with a desire to play genuine BG3 game instead of a DOS reskin in Forgotten Realms ?
Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong

I will ignore several general responses you provided:
- Responses that questioned why something was a complaint, because none of them are complaints.
- Responses that some things should have been compressed because I'm trying to strike a balance of including both General and Specific factors, with specific factors being broken out when there appears to be sufficient focus on it in this forum and Discord.

Lastly, my responses are not in numerical order but rather in the order you provided.

#29. This is categorically false, least of which because the Beast Master Ranger *in the EA* already runs into this problem by not being able to have their Find Familiar and Animal Companion at the same time. Never mind when spells like Conjure Animals, Find Steed, etc. comes into play. This restriction to 1 summon is a feature of DoS and does not exist in BG, where you were only limited by the capabilities of the engine at the time. Do note, that the DoS engine is perfectly capable of having more than 1 companion (Glut's army), so the restriction is clearly intentional by Larian.

#35. Already breaking my rule above, but the complete overabundance of British accents is also something I meant to include, but decided to make it specifically regarding Malady. You will notice I did not write the factor that they reused Amelia Tyler. It's that they had her do the *exact* Malady voice. Having the exact same voice from DoS in your ear, without any changes at all, is objectively a factor that makes you feel like the game is more DoS and BG. Amelia is an incredibly talented voice actress who is more than capable of varying her voice to be a different character. The choice to have her repeat the sounds of Malady was a conscious decision and consequently is a factor on the list.

#46. First, that is incorrect. D&D is not balanced around a 4 person party. Specifically, it if balanced for between 3-5 (based on the DMG), and WotC published adventures assume 4-5 players. Moreover, the BG series is well known for being 6 characters, while DoS is known for being 4 characters. Neither game has those as exclusive factors, but both those statements are true. So on the list it goes. Ironically, making it be 5 characters would make the game more 'unique', though 6 would make it more BG.

#48. This factor was tweaked slightly to better emphasize the specific factor. See the previous posts in this thread.

#58. You are correct regarding the capability to do the math....except no. Because the math requires you to know both your to-hit chance and the enemy's AC values, neither of which are immediately apparent. Again, not complaints, just factors. You do bring up a good point though that I will add to the factors, which is that you have full access to the stats of the enemy just by Examining the target (with the caveat that DoS did require you to level up a particular skill to get more information, while BG did not allow that at all).

#61. Incorrect, which leads me to believe you don't really know the rules of 5e. Which is fine because that's not what this discussion is about. Companions block movement in DoS, they don't in BG.

#66. That is both wrong (you can see creatures well before you party can) and not what Fog of War references.

#70. Admittedly I knew 'aimbotting' is not an accurate term, taking suggestions on something that better conveys the factor. Enemy AI perfect knowledge? This remains a factor, more so because DoS literally patched this exactly factor because every enemy had essentially Max stats for knowing the characters statistics. But it still famously happens in DoS and does not happen in BG, so it's a factor.

#17. Normal enemies refers to enemies that do nothing more than attack with their weapon, without any special moves, abilities, consumables, or throwables. BG had plenty of enemies like this, DoS practically had none. So its a factor.

#10. Not really sure how to respond to this besides agreeing with your statement of facts but disagreeing with the conclusions you draw? I listed roughly 10 elements to this factor (start as prisoner, on a vessel, mentally based enemies, etc.). BG 3 shares all 10 elements with DoS. BG 1 shares zero of those elements. BG 2 shares two as best I can count (prisoner, freed by outside attack). So across 20 possible times to have those elements occur in the introductory areas of BG 1 and BG 2, it occurred 2 times. In DoS it correct 10 out of 10, in BG 3, also 10 out of 10. That's why it's a factor, and that's why the most commonly typed response in chat when Swen did the first gameplay reveal was BEACH BEACH BEACH.

#53. Did you actually play BG 1 and BG 2? You could literally make a party of entirely custom characters.

#56. Again, this is just wrong. Here is a link to the books provided in the BG series. Please just do a spot sampling. History/lore Books in DoS, and BG 3, are a few sentences at most and usually contain text in < > brackets to indicate a summary. Compare that to your spot sampling, where there are several paragraphs of lore for each book in BG. Ironically, this can easily flip from a DoS factor to a BG factor if Larian just copy + pastes the lore text and then updates them based on 'current events' at this point in the Faerun timeline.

Hopefully I didn't miss any!

I assume that most of it are complaints because thats the nature that I have seen them be referenced in. If you mention a 4 man party 99 out of 100 times thats in reference that bg1 and 2 had 6 man parties and people want to complain about it. So yes, if I see that in a topic about why it feels to much like DOS compared to BG I will assume that its a complaint.

The same applied to most of the things where I assumed that it was a complaint. If it wasent one it wasent very clear because a more in depth description was missing.

Re your point about 29: I also offered that that it might be a balance issue. Infact I started with that point... I think its either a leftover code from DOS or done for balance. In 3.5 dnd pet classes were also considered to be OP so maybe the devs were aware of that and were trying to avoid it beeing an issue again?

Re 35. I disagree. Dont find it an issue at all.

Re46: when something is balanced for 3 to 5 players, the avarage of that is 4. So in that sense, yes. Dnd IS based around 4 players. Its simular in the sense that both bg3 and DOS have 4 man parties. Sure. But I find the vein popping rage induced rants that this game isent bg because it doesent have 6 man parties to be very facinating. Facinating and probably unhealthy if people are so invested in that party size....

Re58: people at the table generally catch on quikly what the AC needed to hit is. If a 13 misses but a 14 hits it doesent take a scientist to figure out what the AC is. Some DM's just tell the players what the AC is to improve the pace of combat. Point is 'the players wouldnt know either' can only go so far as an argument. As is it shows the player much needed information that they need to make informed decisions. At the table the dm might say 'you see a warrior brandished in shining plate armor accompanied by a tall grey haired wizard in robes. Alongside them stands a gnome in stylish studded leather armour' or something simular. It conveyes information that the players can take in to determine potential AC's (armour descriptions) where in bg3 you dont have that per se. I mean you see it rather then hear it and that doesent necessarily get the same information across. Specially if they have several skins for the same armour. The players needs to have some form of visual que imo to know which target is less armoured. I think Larian went withe just showing us the AC. What would you suggest how they could improve this?

Re 61: if you want I can cite you the rule and page in the rulebook that cites this. But im currently not at home so youd have to wait for that one.

Re:66. what about it is wrong? Also seeing them just before your guys would see them allows you a small window to respond what you just found. But it is 100% reliant on having line of sight to it.

Re 70: saying that the AI doesent focus your squishies in bg is so laughably false now im wondering if you played it... AI does and SHOULD focus your weaker teammates first.

Re 17: if thats your description of normal enemies its still false. Ive seen plenty use just normal attacks even if the number of consumables used in battle is to high.

Re 10: In BG2 you start as a prisoner by Irenicus, who frequently (mentally) tortured you, his stronghold is attacked by shadow thieves allowing you to escape. While his ship doesent sink because he dident hold us captive on one. After we escape our escape is also complicated by our half sister beeing captured alongside our captor by the cowled wizards. So ALOT more points in common then just 2. If he held us captive on a boat the comparison would probably be a 10/10 because all the things not on the list are tied to the location where he held us captive. And another thing... this kind of intro is a story telling trope. Its not a DOS thing per se...

Re53: Seriously whats with the insults? You literally had to go in multiplayer mode and assign all slots to yourself to make a party of 6 members. It was possible but wasent the traditional way to play it. Try launching a single player game and tell me how many characters you get to make.

Re 56: I dont need to click on your link mate. I played the damn games. Most of the things you found were a few paragraphs long, or a single page for notes/messages that you found. There were some longer reads but its not like every book you found was an actual book. Granted they had more text the the books in DOS or bg3, sure. But not by all that much. Nor would I categorize bg3 a DOS game because the lorebooks..... its just kind of a silly argument in my opinion.
Posted By: Abits Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 29/10/20 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by Roarro
Originally Posted by luciant
of course it 'feels like' Divinity Original Sin 2-- to think that it wasn't going to is asinine.

All of you are forgetting SIMPLE FACTS;
1) Wizards of the Coast chose Larian because they loved DoS2 and WANTED their IP to be handled by the same company.
2) Larian Studios made DoS2 and are making BG3 using assets (engine, code, art, etc) from DoS2
3) BG1 and BG2 were made on OLD technology, were based on a different ruleset, made by a different development team, and most importantly WERENT EVEN TURN BASED (real time with pause is not a substitute for turn based).

these facts should have made it overwhelmingly clear that BG3 was going to be VERY different than 1 & 2. Likewise it should stand to reason that if you did not like DoS2 you will probably not enjoy this game either, you should have considered that BEFORE spending your money.

I get that there are plenty of people out there that are fans of D&D (old editions and new) that want a true rules as written game, but to expect that from this again is pretty stupid. To reiterate see point 1 above- WotC chose Larian.

Simple fact is also that we are the clients-we can ask for the game we wan't to play. Like what's wrong with a desire to play genuine BG3 game instead of a DOS reskin in Forgotten Realms ?

Nothing wrong just keep your expectations real
Originally Posted by Roarro
Originally Posted by luciant
of course it 'feels like' Divinity Original Sin 2-- to think that it wasn't going to is asinine.

All of you are forgetting SIMPLE FACTS;
1) Wizards of the Coast chose Larian because they loved DoS2 and WANTED their IP to be handled by the same company.
2) Larian Studios made DoS2 and are making BG3 using assets (engine, code, art, etc) from DoS2
3) BG1 and BG2 were made on OLD technology, were based on a different ruleset, made by a different development team, and most importantly WERENT EVEN TURN BASED (real time with pause is not a substitute for turn based).

these facts should have made it overwhelmingly clear that BG3 was going to be VERY different than 1 & 2. Likewise it should stand to reason that if you did not like DoS2 you will probably not enjoy this game either, you should have considered that BEFORE spending your money.

I get that there are plenty of people out there that are fans of D&D (old editions and new) that want a true rules as written game, but to expect that from this again is pretty stupid. To reiterate see point 1 above- WotC chose Larian.

Simple fact is also that we are the clients-we can ask for the game we wan't to play. Like what's wrong with a desire to play genuine BG3 game instead of a DOS reskin in Forgotten Realms ?

Simple, really, define "genuine BG3". This is the first time the game's been made, so it's not like we can point to the "actual" BG 3 and say "make it like this one". BG 3 will not make or break the 5e system, so that's not it, and for those of us that quit TT gaming with the introduction of 4e, or those that never played TT, it's irrelevant to whether we'll enjoy the game or not. So that's not "genuine BG 3" either. If I had to point to something, right now, that was, it would be this game. Why? Because it's the actual BG 3.
Posted By: luciant Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 29/10/20 07:15 PM
[/quote]
Simple fact is also that we are the clients-we can ask for the game we wan't to play. Like what's wrong with a desire to play genuine BG3 game instead of a DOS reskin in Forgotten Realms ? [/quote]
Simple, really, define "genuine BG3". This is the first time the game's been made, so it's not like we can point to the "actual" BG 3 and say "make it like this one". BG 3 will not make or break the 5e system, so that's not it, and for those of us that quit TT gaming with the introduction of 4e, or those that never played TT, it's irrelevant to whether we'll enjoy the game or not. So that's not "genuine BG 3" either. If I had to point to something, right now, that was, it would be this game. Why? Because it's the actual BG 3.[/quote]

Excatly-- this is BG3-- WoTC sought out Larian to make the game because they wanted it to be similar to DoS2 but with 5e rules... can't get more 'genuine' than that.
Posted By: Abits Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 29/10/20 07:19 PM
In the end it's a business thing, and based on the number of og BG fans who come here to complain it's not bg3 it was a very smart business thing. When I think about it I'm a little surprised actually. I would have thought that most Larian fans are old BG fans but I guess not
Posted By: Zefhyr Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 29/10/20 07:21 PM
Demoulius, I'm sry I didn't read all your last post but it's for a good reason I hope you will understand.
You absolutely don't get the point about this thread.

Here is why I stopped to read after 4 or 5 points...
You said :
Originally Posted by Demoulius

1. Choice of color palette. I mean.... Ok? Bg 1 and 2 were pretty dark in a lot of places. Why is this a complaint exactly?


This post is NOT ABOUT COMPLAIN, it's about showing what didn't feel like BG. This is not about COMPLAINING, this is about RECORDING what make BG3 not feel like a BG-game.

So you should have said : "1. Choice of color palette. I mean.... Ok." and that's all, cause there is nothing more to say.
I did somthing funny. I search the word "complain" in your post. You used it more than 20 times
How many times the OP used it in his post ? Not even once.
Did you get it ? Most of your post is off-topic and most of it just confirm what the OP said.


You are completely this guy who wants to convince us to like tomatoes when we just said tomatoes are not onions...

God, how I miss onions too...

PS:
saying :
- BG1 and 2 had 6 man parties
- DOS 1 and 2 had 4 man parties
- BG3 have 4 man parties
- so this point makes feel BG3 closer to DOS than BG.
This is not a COMPLAIN, this is a FACT.
This not an OPINION, This is a analysis.
You denying it, just show how stubborn you are.
Quote
- BG1 and 2 had 6 man parties
- DOS 1 and 2 had 4 man parties
- BG3 have 4 man parties
- so this point makes feel BG3 closer to DOS than BG.
This is not a COMPLAIN, this is a FACT.
This not an OPINION, This is a analysis.
You denying it, just show how stubborn you are.

The second you bring 'feels like' into the equation it does infact not make it fac but an opiniont. People experiences things differently. And feelings just as opinions are very personal. People can agree or disagree with opinions but dont say that something is fact when it is not.

Just saying that it FEELS like DOS 3 rather then BG3 is something the developers cant do anything with. They cant bottle the baldurs gate 'feel'. Nor would increasing the party size to 6 man make it a bg game.
Posted By: Lindon Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 29/10/20 09:13 PM
Originally Posted by Emrikol
Good job on compiling these points. Hopefully this will be the place where all such discussions are redirected so we don't have a new post every day regarding one or more of these issues.

As to the points themselves, there should be no surprise that there are a lot of parallels. It would be wasteful for them to change certain things just to be different (e.g. 49, 38, 35). Some are wrong (e.g hotbar UI). A good amount we can expect (or at least hope) to change (e.g 7, 8, 14, 15 and so on). Some are so subjective as to be meaningless (e.g 1). Moreover, a lengthy list can also be compiled that shows why BG3 doesn't feel like DOS2.


I hope they undo a lot of their "homebrew" changes that ruin combat (bonus actions, surface effects, monster stats, cantrips, food healing, etc.) but that will mean redesigning every encounter in the game. If all they've created so far is Act 1, maybe that's doable. If they're working on Acts 2 and 3 already though, I suspect they won't put forth that effort and instead will try to tweak the balance and we'll be stuck with this stuff. Keep in mind that the guy in charge of combat apparently thinks BG1/2 combat was garbage and seems to have a huge hard-on for annoying surface effects, so I doubt we'll see anything major change unless he's fired.
Posted By: Lindon Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 29/10/20 09:16 PM
Originally Posted by Roarro
Originally Posted by luciant
of course it 'feels like' Divinity Original Sin 2-- to think that it wasn't going to is asinine.

All of you are forgetting SIMPLE FACTS;
1) Wizards of the Coast chose Larian because they loved DoS2 and WANTED their IP to be handled by the same company.
2) Larian Studios made DoS2 and are making BG3 using assets (engine, code, art, etc) from DoS2
3) BG1 and BG2 were made on OLD technology, were based on a different ruleset, made by a different development team, and most importantly WERENT EVEN TURN BASED (real time with pause is not a substitute for turn based).

these facts should have made it overwhelmingly clear that BG3 was going to be VERY different than 1 & 2. Likewise it should stand to reason that if you did not like DoS2 you will probably not enjoy this game either, you should have considered that BEFORE spending your money.

I get that there are plenty of people out there that are fans of D&D (old editions and new) that want a true rules as written game, but to expect that from this again is pretty stupid. To reiterate see point 1 above- WotC chose Larian.

Simple fact is also that we are the clients-we can ask for the game we wan't to play. Like what's wrong with a desire to play genuine BG3 game instead of a DOS reskin in Forgotten Realms ?


The problem is that we have DOS fans and BG fans and they want different things. There's people that love surface effects and barrelmancy and don't mind that mobs are buffed to compensate. Then there's people that hate them and feel their gameplay experience is ruined by it. Larian's only going to be able to please one group.
Originally Posted by Lindon
Originally Posted by Roarro
Originally Posted by luciant
of course it 'feels like' Divinity Original Sin 2-- to think that it wasn't going to is asinine.

All of you are forgetting SIMPLE FACTS;
1) Wizards of the Coast chose Larian because they loved DoS2 and WANTED their IP to be handled by the same company.
2) Larian Studios made DoS2 and are making BG3 using assets (engine, code, art, etc) from DoS2
3) BG1 and BG2 were made on OLD technology, were based on a different ruleset, made by a different development team, and most importantly WERENT EVEN TURN BASED (real time with pause is not a substitute for turn based).

these facts should have made it overwhelmingly clear that BG3 was going to be VERY different than 1 & 2. Likewise it should stand to reason that if you did not like DoS2 you will probably not enjoy this game either, you should have considered that BEFORE spending your money.

I get that there are plenty of people out there that are fans of D&D (old editions and new) that want a true rules as written game, but to expect that from this again is pretty stupid. To reiterate see point 1 above- WotC chose Larian.

Simple fact is also that we are the clients-we can ask for the game we wan't to play. Like what's wrong with a desire to play genuine BG3 game instead of a DOS reskin in Forgotten Realms ?


The problem is that we have DOS fans and BG fans and they want different things. There's people that love surface effects and barrelmancy and don't mind that mobs are buffed to compensate. Then there's people that hate them and feel their gameplay experience is ruined by it. Larian's only going to be able to please one group.


Wouldn't it be more logical to pander towards the BG fans since this supposed to be a BG game?
Posted By: Orbax Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 29/10/20 09:24 PM
If you look at the sales of DOS2 v BG, not really :p Theyll get their fanbase and bait and switch the BG ones and win big!
Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
To be clear, this is not for stating changes to the base rules of 5e or even decrying some of these elements. This is to create a master list of all the elements of the game that make it ‘feel’ like a DoS game, rather than a Baldur’s Gate/D&D game, given that it is such a popular forum topic. I also acknowledge that I have shamelessly stolen many of these items from other posters, I cannot thank you all enough. Generally speaking, here is the logical process I used for inclusion on this list:

Step 1 - Was the 'thing' something that does exist in DoS?
Step 2 - Was the 'thing' something that is well known for existing in DoS?
Step 3 - Was the 'thing' something that does exist in BG?
Step 4 - Was the 'thing' something that is well known for existing in BG?
Step 5 - How often have I experienced the 'thing' being discussed?

I will keep this list updated if people wish to add to/remove from it:

1. Choice of color palette
2. Origin characters vs NPC companions
3. All Origin characters discovered nearly immediately in the game rather than organically throughout the entire story.
4. World full of meaningless items
5. World full of meaningless containers/locked chest with very little of value in them
6. Battles based in the environment and not in Character Class
7. Height (King of the Hill gameplay)
8. Backstab (only lacking the ground indicator from DoS)
9. Removing Class identity by making each character a Swiss Army knife, able to do everything (converting many Actions into Bonus Actions that normally only a Rogue would have, all classes can use scrolls, all classes have massive mobility in combat due to Jump, etc.)
10. Exactly the same starting pattern. Start as a prisoner on the vessel (boat/nautiloid) of our mentally flogging enemies (Magisters/Mindflayer). Vessel is attacked and we must take advantage of this to escape. Only everything does not go as planned and we fall off (void/water) and we are saved from dying by a mysterious force. Then we arrive on a beach and we wake up. Proceed to small settlement nearby.
11. Barrelmancy
12. Surfaces *everywhere*
13. Surfaces having overpowered effects beyond just damage
14. Food everywhere that is better healing than everything else
15. Encounter design that assumes you are fully rested for each fight.
16. Every fight involves flashy gimmicks and enemies using a host of special items (elemental arrows, grenades, healing potions)
17. No normal enemies
18. Reused DoS items that don’t exist in D&D 5e (Trap Kit)
19. Succeeding on a thieving check but the target magically knows you stole from them a few seconds later.
20. Enemies have insanely high HP values, needlessly lengthening combat
21. Chaining party members and movement system
22. Shared inventory space
23. Inventory management and UI
24. Swap any gear on and off in combat
25. Screen shake on ability selection, regardless of activation
26. Overly flashy effects for mundane actions (Jump, etc)
27. Stealth sight cones
28. Swap spells nearly at-will
29. Limited to 1 summon per character
30. Being knocked prone ends your turn
31. Turn Based vs Real Time with Pause
32. Overpowering low level characters via magic items (Doubling Magic Missiles damage)
33. Closeup character models for Portraits
34. Teleportation fast travel accessible from anywhere
35. Narrator’s voice is Malady from DoS 2
36. Normal attack with duel-wielding weapons attacks with both at the same time
37. Reused ability names and animations (Great Weapon Master is called “All In”)
38. Same highlighting mechanic of climbable surfaces
39. Same blocky item reveal UI that doesn’t actually show the item (pressing Alt)
40. Same revealing a hidden item graphic
41. Terrible pathing that will lead to allies unintentionally walking over surfaces and traps
42. Merchant UI
43. Giving free items to the merchant increases your ‘likeable’ score for that merchant, resulting in lower prices
44. Stealing from someone with one character while you are talking to them with another character
45. Giant contiguous maps rather than small and more discrete maps
46. 4 party limit
47. Same map and minimap UI (showing interactable ground, map markers)
48. Hotbar UI (primarily functionality)
49. Resurrection mechanics, animation (being able to magically teleport someone when resurrecting them)
50. Needing to double click to cast ‘self’ range spells
51. Inability to target party members for spells/abilities via their portrait
52. No non-combat exp or reward for avoiding combat
53. Only able to customize 1 character at the beginning
54. Excessively long ‘AI thinking’ delays in combat
55. Lockpicking progress bar
56. Most books and item descriptions extremely short
57. No need to identify magic items
58. Showing the percentage to-hit
59. Being able to right click on an enemy an ‘examine’ them to learn all of their stats
60. Moving cursor around a target can change whether you hit the target or the ranged attack is intercepted.
61. Companions completely block movement
62. Same party management UI in multiplayer
63. No day/night cycle, it’s always the same time of day in the location
64. Cannot adjust starting gear
65. Overabundance of magic items that remove the need to pick certain spells or abilities (Amulets for Speak with Dead, Misty Step, staff with Create Water, etc.)
66. No Fog of War
67. Ability to keep one or more party members out of combat via Stealth
68. No tracking of normal arrows
69. Wallhack scouting via camera manipulation
70. Aimbotting AI (automatically knowing which party member has the ‘least’ in a defensive stat and focusing solely on them)
71. No random encounters
72. Infinitely summonable Zombie companion
*edits below*
73. Access to enemy statistics by "Examining" them. (Note: DoS has this mechanic but locks some information behind spending points a particular skill, while BG did not have this at all).
74. Main theme music (credit to Endolex for demonstrating the audible difference a BG based theme would sound like -> https://soundcloud.com/endolex/baldurs-gate-iii-alternate-main-menu-arrangement)


I see mainly positive points or irrelevant things or small inconveniences.

Why would Larian need to make a 1:1 copy of an outdated, 18 years old game? And before you attack me with your fedora hats and pointless arguments, yeah, I said it - BG 1&2 is not even close to Divinity 1&2 and to Pillars of Eternity 1&2 for that matter, its inferior to new age RPG games, in story, in characters and game mechanics, sure it was revolutionary back then (although fallout still had better everything, except magic and fedora hats), but not now.

Lockpicking progress bar, pfff, get a life.
Originally Posted by Demoulius


*snip*

I assume that most of it are complaints because thats the nature that I have seen them be referenced in. If you mention a 4 man party 99 out of 100 times thats in reference that bg1 and 2 had 6 man parties and people want to complain about it. So yes, if I see that in a topic about why it feels to much like DOS compared to BG I will assume that its a complaint.

The same applied to most of the things where I assumed that it was a complaint. If it wasent one it wasent very clear because a more in depth description was missing.

Re your point about 29: I also offered that that it might be a balance issue. Infact I started with that point... I think its either a leftover code from DOS or done for balance. In 3.5 dnd pet classes were also considered to be OP so maybe the devs were aware of that and were trying to avoid it beeing an issue again?

Re 35. I disagree. Dont find it an issue at all.

Re46: when something is balanced for 3 to 5 players, the avarage of that is 4. So in that sense, yes. Dnd IS based around 4 players. Its simular in the sense that both bg3 and DOS have 4 man parties. Sure. But I find the vein popping rage induced rants that this game isent bg because it doesent have 6 man parties to be very facinating. Facinating and probably unhealthy if people are so invested in that party size....

Re58: people at the table generally catch on quikly what the AC needed to hit is. If a 13 misses but a 14 hits it doesent take a scientist to figure out what the AC is. Some DM's just tell the players what the AC is to improve the pace of combat. Point is 'the players wouldnt know either' can only go so far as an argument. As is it shows the player much needed information that they need to make informed decisions. At the table the dm might say 'you see a warrior brandished in shining plate armor accompanied by a tall grey haired wizard in robes. Alongside them stands a gnome in stylish studded leather armour' or something simular. It conveyes information that the players can take in to determine potential AC's (armour descriptions) where in bg3 you dont have that per se. I mean you see it rather then hear it and that doesent necessarily get the same information across. Specially if they have several skins for the same armour. The players needs to have some form of visual que imo to know which target is less armoured. I think Larian went withe just showing us the AC. What would you suggest how they could improve this?

Re 61: if you want I can cite you the rule and page in the rulebook that cites this. But im currently not at home so youd have to wait for that one.

Re:66. what about it is wrong? Also seeing them just before your guys would see them allows you a small window to respond what you just found. But it is 100% reliant on having line of sight to it.

Re 70: saying that the AI doesent focus your squishies in bg is so laughably false now im wondering if you played it... AI does and SHOULD focus your weaker teammates first.

Re 17: if thats your description of normal enemies its still false. Ive seen plenty use just normal attacks even if the number of consumables used in battle is to high.

Re 10: In BG2 you start as a prisoner by Irenicus, who frequently (mentally) tortured you, his stronghold is attacked by shadow thieves allowing you to escape. While his ship doesent sink because he dident hold us captive on one. After we escape our escape is also complicated by our half sister beeing captured alongside our captor by the cowled wizards. So ALOT more points in common then just 2. If he held us captive on a boat the comparison would probably be a 10/10 because all the things not on the list are tied to the location where he held us captive. And another thing... this kind of intro is a story telling trope. Its not a DOS thing per se...

Re53: Seriously whats with the insults? You literally had to go in multiplayer mode and assign all slots to yourself to make a party of 6 members. It was possible but wasent the traditional way to play it. Try launching a single player game and tell me how many characters you get to make.

Re 56: I dont need to click on your link mate. I played the damn games. Most of the things you found were a few paragraphs long, or a single page for notes/messages that you found. There were some longer reads but its not like every book you found was an actual book. Granted they had more text the the books in DOS or bg3, sure. But not by all that much. Nor would I categorize bg3 a DOS game because the lorebooks..... its just kind of a silly argument in my opinion.


#29 - It is neither balance intended nor a limitation of the engine (again, Glut Army). So it is a conscious choice.

#35 - You're doing it again. I did not say whether it was or was not an issue/bad thing, but it is a factor. DoS was well known for having been set in the British Isles and nowhere else. BG series had an abundance of different accents. BG 3 is also set in the British Isle it seems, so on the list it goes. Reusing the exact same voice for Malady (voice, not voice actress. By all means go look at how many Voice Actors the BG series used and who multiple actors provided extremely different voices)

#46 - Except then it would be listed as being balanced for 4 players. It is not. It is 3-5, or 4-5. And again, is DoS well known for having 4 person parties? Yes. Is BG well known for having 4 person parties? No. Is it discussed a lot? Literally one of the longest ongoing discussions, so yes. Ergo, it goes on the list as a DoS factor that contributes its part to the 'feeling' of DoS rather than BG. Stop confusing this thread as the place where people are discussing whether 4 person parties are good or bad, but rather whether that is a factor in why the game feels like BG or DoS.

#58 - Yup, they sure do. They find out that information organically, sometimes even by just looking at the miniature or the DM's description of the target. Which is exactly what happened in the BG series. It is not what happened in the DoS series. This is not the place to discuss improving it or not, but the fact is DoS is well known for the Examine mechanic, BG is not well known for that, and it is something that has been discussed here and on Discord (with growing occurrence). So on the list it goes.

#61 - No need, because I know the rules better than you think you do. PHB pg 191. Relevant text under the heading of "Moving Around Other Creatures" --- "You can move through a nonhostile creature's space. In contrast, you can move through a hostile creature's space only if the creature is at least two sizes larger or smaller than you. Remember that another creature's space is difficult terrain for you. Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space."

You could not move through an ally at all in DoS, you could move through an allies space in BG. Ergo, on the list.

#66 You are wrong that you cannot see enemies on the map without Line of Sight. It does work like that occasionally, typically via walls and doors, but absolutely not when on the overworld map. But Fog of War references not being able to see anything, enemies, terrain, and the minimap included, until you have Line of Sight. Solasta is a great example of this, but so is the BG series. You do not get the map revealed until you actually go explore it.

#70 Laughably wrong, again. You didn't play the game, or you played a heavily modified version of the game. BG AI had a host of prioritizations, distance to target being one of them. Some enemies would run past your frontline to get to the squishies, generally only if it was appropriate for that enemy type. Go ahead, go test it out. Load up BG 2 and demonstrate that the AI consistently targets the creature with the lowest (highest) AC value. I know it won't, because I did.

Is DoS known for AI that has perfect knowledge and targets your 'lowest' armor stat character, regardless of distance to target or other factors. BG AI is not known for doing this (feel free to go ask the coders that dived into the AI coding for the EE). Ergo on the list. If you have any sort of proof that this is incorrect in either respect, happy to remove.

#17 - That is my description. I cannot think of a single fight in BG 3 where the enemies did not do at least one of the following: use consumables, use bombs/thrown attacks, magical spells, special abilities (ones not from their 5e states). It is entirely possible that I have missed that particular fight or did not remember one where none of the above happened. Same process for DoS. Is DoS well known for this? Is BG series known for this? On the list.

#10 - I gave this one quite a bit of thought, but ultimately decided to keep it included on the list for the amount of times it has been brought up in discussions. Ignoring the amount of other people that 'feel' the same on this factor cannot be ignored. I also disagree with your broader inclusion of the BG 2 start elements, in addition to the fact that you completely ignored how BG 1 intro had absolutely none of those elements. You did make me think how DoS 1 doesn't necessarily have 10/10 factors, but it still had enough (beach after ship wreck being the most obvious).

#53 - You are again seeing what you want to see (insults) rather than what was actually written. I genuinely did not know if you played the entirety of the BG 1 and BG 2 series, because it *is* well known for being able to form an entire 6 player character party. Is DoS well known for making you take NPCs as companions instead of player created characters? Yes. Is BG well known for that? No. Is it discussed frequently? Yes. On the list.

#56 - You openly admit you didn't review the evidence provided, so your response does not carry much value. I provided empirical evidence of the length of the in-game BG series lore books. I haven't been able to find a list of the BG 3 in-game lore books yet, but more than happy to review one if you can provide. At the moment, there is no question (in my own person opinion) about the difference in descriptive sizes. More than happy to change this one if provided contradictory evidence or sufficient confirmation that others disagree.

Please stop trying to say whether a factor is good or bad, you keep doing that.
Originally Posted by Warlord999
*snip*

I see mainly positive points or irrelevant things or small inconveniences.

Why would Larian need to make a 1:1 copy of an outdated, 18 years old game? And before you attack me with your fedora hats and pointless arguments, yeah, I said it - BG 1&2 is not even close to Divinity 1&2 and to Pillars of Eternity 1&2 for that matter, its inferior to new age RPG games, in story, in characters and game mechanics, sure it was revolutionary back then (although fallout still had better everything, except magic and fedora hats), but not now.

Lockpicking progress bar, pfff, get a life.


Well shoot, never been this easy to realize someone doesn't actually read the provided information and is worthy of a block. Good luck out there mate.
Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
Originally Posted by Warlord999
*snip*

I see mainly positive points or irrelevant things or small inconveniences.

Why would Larian need to make a 1:1 copy of an outdated, 18 years old game? And before you attack me with your fedora hats and pointless arguments, yeah, I said it - BG 1&2 is not even close to Divinity 1&2 and to Pillars of Eternity 1&2 for that matter, its inferior to new age RPG games, in story, in characters and game mechanics, sure it was revolutionary back then (although fallout still had better everything, except magic and fedora hats), but not now.

Lockpicking progress bar, pfff, get a life.


Well shoot, never been this easy to realize someone doesn't actually read the provided information and is worthy of a block. Good luck out there mate.


[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by Warlord999


I see mainly positive points or irrelevant things or small inconveniences.

Why would Larian need to make a 1:1 copy of an outdated, 18 years old game? And before you attack me with your fedora hats and pointless arguments, yeah, I said it - BG 1&2 is not even close to Divinity 1&2 and to Pillars of Eternity 1&2 for that matter, its inferior to new age RPG games, in story, in characters and game mechanics, sure it was revolutionary back then (although fallout still had better everything, except magic and fedora hats), but not now.

Lockpicking progress bar, pfff, get a life.


If you can't contribute constructively to a discussion, the best solution is to not contribute at all. Having different opinions than yourself is actually allowed, and even a good thing in the world. Without other thoughts, the world would stagnate pretty fast.

Since you keep fixating on being passive-aggressive towards other forum members and have some weird obsession with fedoras, I'll make sure to tip mine to you the next time someone reports your posts, as a ban will follow immediately after.

Consider how you convey yourself in the future so that won't happen. Hopefully this warning is clear enough.

Edit: Never mind. You already beat me to it.

Please bring your fedora with you on the way out.
Posted By: Zefhyr Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 29/10/20 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by Demoulius
[quote]- BG1 and 2 had 6 man parties
- DOS 1 and 2 had 4 man parties
- BG3 have 4 man parties
- so this point makes feel BG3 closer to DOS than BG.
This is not a COMPLAIN, this is a FACT.
This not an OPINION, This is a analysis.
You denying it, just show how stubborn you are.

The second you bring 'feels like' into the equation it does infact not make it fac but an opiniont. People experiences things differently. And feelings just as opinions are very personal. People can agree or disagree with opinions but dont say that something is fact when it is not.


Ho gosh....
Sry for my poor english as non-native one.

I rephrase it more correctly for you to understand (even if I'm pretty sure you don't really want to understand a point of view which is different from yours...)

- BG1 and 2 had 6 man parties
- DOS 1 and 2 had 4 man parties
- BG3 have 4 man parties
- so BG3 is closer in his design to DOS.
that's a fact.
This is not a COMPLAIN, this is not a FEELING, this is a... wait for it... FACT. So don't say something is not a fact when it is.

More, what you say about "feel" is irrelevant.
People can indeed think BG3 feels or doesn't feel like DOS2. But no one can say "4 man parties ? Its totally BG !". And this is why this point participate to explain why BG3 feels like DOS2.

Saying "nah, feeling is personnal" is just a... poor way to denied the influence of game design. If we follow your reasoning it's impossible to make a game who feels like another since "you know it's feelings...".
Absurd. It's like if you said "people find Grave of the fireflies sad but it's not because of the work of his creator, it's just a feeling coming from nowhere". It's absurd.
A feeling didn't just pop-up out of nowhere in the minds of the people.
A feeling is induced by the design, the work the creators put in their creation.

So, definitely putting "4 man parties" in BG3 participate to the feeling of DoS cause it's a clear indicator, a clear difference, undisputable.
Saying otherwise is hypocrisy.

So again, the "4 man-parties" is a difference which participate to make BG3 feels like DoS.


Originally Posted by Demoulius
[quote]Just saying that it FEELS like DOS 3 rather then BG3 is something the developers cant do anything with. They cant bottle the baldurs gate 'feel'. Nor would increasing the party size to 6 man make it a bg game.


Who said that ? Who said "increasing the size to 6 will make it bg" ? Really, who ?
There is just a guy who listed all the difference who participate to make BG3 feels like DoS.
And you summarize his work by a "one difference won't make difference". Yeah obviously. This is why there is more than 50 differences.
It's like saying "one brush stroke wont make a flower". yeah, obivously... This is why painter put more than just "one brush stroke".

I really try to deal with your stubborness but...
Originally Posted by Demoulius
[quote]Just saying that it FEELS like DOS 3 rather then BG3 is something the developers cant do anything with.

You're saying, the guys can't do a thing about.... their game design ?
Wow.
It's an amazing argument. Larian are lucky to have you to defend them. I mean you litteraly said the guys can't... design.
I accept defeat.

warlord999
it's just a list of the differences.
Why being so aggressive ? This is not even a complaint. This is just a list of difference.
It's pretty crazy to see how some people came to defend and fight where there is nothing to defend or fight.
A guy did a list. You get crazy.
Did he say "lock picking progress bar is a pain in the ass, they have to remove it, I complain and will complain forever!!!" no, he just states a difference.
So please, calm down.

good list, saw few of my compl... er... factors smile

print it out and see next year if any changes were made
Originally Posted by Warlord999
Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
To be clear, this is not for stating changes to the base rules of 5e or even decrying some of these elements. This is to create a master list of all the....
1. Choice of color palette
......
74. Main theme music (credit to Endolex for demonstrating the audible difference a BG based theme would sound like -> https://soundcloud.com/endolex/baldurs-gate-iii-alternate-main-menu-arrangement)


I see mainly positive points or irrelevant things or small inconveniences.

Why would Larian need to make a 1:1 copy of an outdated, 18 years old game? And before you attack me with your fedora hats and pointless arguments, yeah, I said it - BG 1&2 is not even close to Divinity 1&2 and to Pillars of Eternity 1&2 for that matter, its inferior to new age RPG games, in story, in characters and game mechanics, sure it was revolutionary back then (although fallout still had better everything, except magic and fedora hats), but not now.

Lockpicking progress bar, pfff, get a life.


To me BG3 feels like an outdated game, it has annoying party movement, additional breaks/clicks/pauses where they should just let the game flow and the battles are boring.

Yes even BG2 is more modern in many aspect than this, but it was made 20 years ago.
Posted By: Zefhyr Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 30/10/20 12:45 AM
Maybe I'm wrong but as I see it, it's...

The developers who did BG1 and 2 just think about developing a good game, fun, based on D&D but with all the advantages a video game could brought.

It looks like the developers who are doing BG3 are focus on creating a game which will be a D&D game and a DoS style game, forgetting the advantages a video game can brought.

I know my english is terrible (more it's very late here) but I hope you will get my point.

When looking for developping an amazing game thx to the knowledge of D&D seems like a good idea.
Overthinking and trying to give life to a pure copy/past of pen and paper D&D in a video game may be a bad idea.

One exemple (a good one, cause a major disagreement) :
The original devs may have think "hey guys ! Imagine, we are going to do a game with real fights ! It's gonna be soooo cool ! Finally we are going to be able to experience fights in reality time !"
The actual devs may be thinking "hey guys. We have to re-do it as a pen and paper game. So, forget about real time. we must do it turn-based cause this is how it is and who give a fuck if a computer is able to give life to some freaking amazing big real time battles ?"
Of course, it's just my opinion.
Posted By: Vaell Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 30/10/20 01:24 AM
Originally Posted by Abits
Most of this list is kinda useless. some of these things are not bad to have, some are genuine problems, and some are somewhere in between. but without any context, I'm not sure what you expect Larian to do with it.

Make each one more faithful to the source material and Baldur's Gate? That is the context. A great many of them contradict the details of Baldur's Gate and give the game this really strange off feeling that makes its really uncomfortable and almost disturbing to play.
Posted By: fallenj Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 30/10/20 01:36 AM
So you want a echo chamber instead of a conversation?
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Originally Posted by Sludge Khalid
Originally Posted by Orbax
Now make one for how its like BG 1/2 and then a third one of what they need to change laugh


Hi Orbax, it’s me again smile

To find what’s BG2 just do this math

BG2 = BG3^(-1)

That’s the equation smile

Now, being serious, BG1&2 is a clean game. It’s like getting an rock and cutting it into a diamond. BG3 feels like you had a diamond and decided to put it into a necklace with multicolored chains. Too much information. Feel incredibly unpolished.

There’s this phrase that links to BG1/2 perfecly

A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

I don’t feel that in BG3 & DOS series

Hope you understand my artistic point of view


You do realize bg3 is in EARLY ACCES right?

Honestly I just see a list of complaints vs an informative or insightfull post that can help them.


Hi Demolius,

Do you realize that feedback is “expected” for early access right?

In customer experience you don’t tell a car company how to make the seats. They’re the owner of technology. They are the ones who should find the best solution. It’s the customers role to tell them what feels bad “oh, this seat is not comfortable at all”.

Let’s be professional handling with bad reviews. It happens in the market more than you can imagine smile I’d like to think that Larian is mature and they can handle it. They do not need defenders.

Wish you all the best my fellow comrade


So you want a echo chamber? You are right and no one should question you...ROFL
Posted By: Vaell Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 30/10/20 01:43 AM
Originally Posted by fallenj

So you want a echo chamber? You are right and no one should question you...ROFL

Not much really needs to be said. All larian has to do is go down the list and for each item imagine it in the older games. Is it a ludicrous addition? Remove it. Is it a gray area? Tweak and test it.It really isn't rocket science. They are people and have brains. Surely they can brainstorm ideas for improving each problem. I could hijack this thread with a gigantic post of my ideas for each one...but then people would just yell early access at me.
Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong

#29 - It is neither balance intended nor a limitation of the engine (again, Glut Army). So it is a conscious choice.

#35 - You're doing it again. I did not say whether it was or was not an issue/bad thing, but it is a factor. DoS was well known for having been set in the British Isles and nowhere else. BG series had an abundance of different accents. BG 3 is also set in the British Isle it seems, so on the list it goes. Reusing the exact same voice for Malady (voice, not voice actress. By all means go look at how many Voice Actors the BG series used and who multiple actors provided extremely different voices)

#46 - Except then it would be listed as being balanced for 4 players. It is not. It is 3-5, or 4-5. And again, is DoS well known for having 4 person parties? Yes. Is BG well known for having 4 person parties? No. Is it discussed a lot? Literally one of the longest ongoing discussions, so yes. Ergo, it goes on the list as a DoS factor that contributes its part to the 'feeling' of DoS rather than BG. Stop confusing this thread as the place where people are discussing whether 4 person parties are good or bad, but rather whether that is a factor in why the game feels like BG or DoS.

#58 - Yup, they sure do. They find out that information organically, sometimes even by just looking at the miniature or the DM's description of the target. Which is exactly what happened in the BG series. It is not what happened in the DoS series. This is not the place to discuss improving it or not, but the fact is DoS is well known for the Examine mechanic, BG is not well known for that, and it is something that has been discussed here and on Discord (with growing occurrence). So on the list it goes.

#61 - No need, because I know the rules better than you think you do. PHB pg 191. Relevant text under the heading of "Moving Around Other Creatures" --- "You can move through a nonhostile creature's space. In contrast, you can move through a hostile creature's space only if the creature is at least two sizes larger or smaller than you. Remember that another creature's space is difficult terrain for you. Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space."

You could not move through an ally at all in DoS, you could move through an allies space in BG. Ergo, on the list.

#66 You are wrong that you cannot see enemies on the map without Line of Sight. It does work like that occasionally, typically via walls and doors, but absolutely not when on the overworld map. But Fog of War references not being able to see anything, enemies, terrain, and the minimap included, until you have Line of Sight. Solasta is a great example of this, but so is the BG series. You do not get the map revealed until you actually go explore it.

#70 Laughably wrong, again. You didn't play the game, or you played a heavily modified version of the game. BG AI had a host of prioritizations, distance to target being one of them. Some enemies would run past your frontline to get to the squishies, generally only if it was appropriate for that enemy type. Go ahead, go test it out. Load up BG 2 and demonstrate that the AI consistently targets the creature with the lowest (highest) AC value. I know it won't, because I did.

Is DoS known for AI that has perfect knowledge and targets your 'lowest' armor stat character, regardless of distance to target or other factors. BG AI is not known for doing this (feel free to go ask the coders that dived into the AI coding for the EE). Ergo on the list. If you have any sort of proof that this is incorrect in either respect, happy to remove.

#17 - That is my description. I cannot think of a single fight in BG 3 where the enemies did not do at least one of the following: use consumables, use bombs/thrown attacks, magical spells, special abilities (ones not from their 5e states). It is entirely possible that I have missed that particular fight or did not remember one where none of the above happened. Same process for DoS. Is DoS well known for this? Is BG series known for this? On the list.

#10 - I gave this one quite a bit of thought, but ultimately decided to keep it included on the list for the amount of times it has been brought up in discussions. Ignoring the amount of other people that 'feel' the same on this factor cannot be ignored. I also disagree with your broader inclusion of the BG 2 start elements, in addition to the fact that you completely ignored how BG 1 intro had absolutely none of those elements. You did make me think how DoS 1 doesn't necessarily have 10/10 factors, but it still had enough (beach after ship wreck being the most obvious).

#53 - You are again seeing what you want to see (insults) rather than what was actually written. I genuinely did not know if you played the entirety of the BG 1 and BG 2 series, because it *is* well known for being able to form an entire 6 player character party. Is DoS well known for making you take NPCs as companions instead of player created characters? Yes. Is BG well known for that? No. Is it discussed frequently? Yes. On the list.

#56 - You openly admit you didn't review the evidence provided, so your response does not carry much value. I provided empirical evidence of the length of the in-game BG series lore books. I haven't been able to find a list of the BG 3 in-game lore books yet, but more than happy to review one if you can provide. At the moment, there is no question (in my own person opinion) about the difference in descriptive sizes. More than happy to change this one if provided contradictory evidence or sufficient confirmation that others disagree.

Please stop trying to say whether a factor is good or bad, you keep doing that.

#29. Are you Larian? Do you KNOW why its like that in the game? No? Hen dont assume to know the reasons behind their actions. It beeing a leftover from their engine or a balance issue is the most likely anwser to me.

#35 im doing...what? Giving my opinion? Now im confused, why are you upset over that?

#46: Ah yes RPG games are WELL KNOWN for the parties size in the game.... (sarcasm incase anyone is wondering) also im not confusing this as a place for discussion (even if that IS the purpose for these entire forums....) but rather am chiming in. Its not an attack and people are allowed to have different opibions as well. Im saying why I dont see it as such and if you dont agree with me THATS FINE.

#58: you keep using the 'well known' line but ive never heard of a game beeing known for a mechanic to take a closer look at an enemies stats... It was an option, yes. But if you dont want to discuss what else they could do instead then you dont have to I suppose.

#61: Ah good, you found the proper page. Take a look further down the page however: where it blatantly states that you cant move through the hobgoblin in a doorway. Note it does not mention 'a hostile hobgoblin'. It allows you to do what the title says 'move around them'. It allows you to move through the tile they are standing in but only if you could realisticly move past them. You CANNOT move through teammates. Or anyone else who is friednly for that matter. Also if you were close enough to an enemy it would still trigger an attack of opportunity.

Also about moving through teammates in bg. False. You cannot move through teammates AT ALL. Say your mage and rogue are held with a hold person spell you cannot move a fighter past them to get to the enemies. They only move to the side sometimes when a friendly 'pushes' them sort of out of the way, but they need their own movement to do that. You could also do that with neutral NPC's incidentily. If anything though it was a bit of glitchy movement. Im not sure if it was an intended feature.

#86: Sounds more like a glitch to me then. Considering seeing through walls should obviously not be a thing if you need line of sight to see things. Considering we can see through hidden wallss as well currently I think its just safe to mention that the camera and line of sight are abit finicky and buggy atm.

#70: Im abit sick and tired of people saying I did not play the game honestly. Specially when the things that I have posted already blatantly disprove your insult. Ofcourse the AI wont go out of its way to close his ranged fighter to your melee fighter to get a shot at that distant mage. Its not retarded! If he moves into range though even after he has already engaged he might switch target priority however. Which proves my point. That said its a 20 year old game so the AI isent as advantced of that of BG3 but it was defenitly there. Found yourself in a bandit ambush as a random encounter for example where you are SURROUNDED by bandits with bows you will find your squishes targetted ALOT. Again proves my point. Might even target him even though a fighter in plate is closer. Inmagine that! AI in such an old game!

And again the 'the game is very known for' line. Do you get royalties every time you say it? ;P Yeah the AI in DOS is obsessed with dogpiling the most poorly armoured fighters, but thats not the only thing it does and it defenitly isent the thing the game is 'known for'

#17. If you use that description then yes, there are no normal enemies. Enemies also used consumables in BG1 and 2 though. Althoug the only consumables that they used were really potions or special arrows if memory serves me well but by gods they used them.

#10. I did not broaden the terms for the BG2 comparison. If you dont believe me, play the early game again until you escape from Irenicus' dungeon. The opening scene has you in a cage, beeing tortured by Irenicus. Thats already 2 points. Things go south really quikly as Irenicus has to depart because his complex is beeing attacked allowing you to escape. You make your way through the exit of the dungeon and an explosion basicly rips a hole in the trade district. Irenicus then fights the cowled wizard but 'surrenders' if they also take Imoen kidnapping your half sister. Thats 5 points at least. You dont wake up on a beach and the prison wasent a ship. It doesent sink and you dont wake up on a beach. If you include the explosion not blowing up the PC thats 6 points as divine intervention but that might be taking the piss about laugh

And again, the whole 'you start captured and then escape' is a widely used trope to start a story. But I can see how people might draw compariisons to DOS.

#53: If people question whatever im beeing truthfull about what im saying while the points that im making about the game make it BLATANTLY OBVIOUS that I did then yes, I am bloody offended by that; because it feels very disenguine.

Playing Multiplayer and making a full PC team was a method to play, yes. Not everyone liked it though because you missed all inter party interaction the game had to offer and it defenitly wasent the default way to play the game. I would LOVE it if Larian included it at some point but im neither expecting nor want it to be for my 1st playthrough. It allowed for better (read: stronger) parties but you missed so much roleplaying it was genuinely a shame. I only did it after completing the game honestly but it was an interesting way to play the game defenitly.

#56: I said that bg did have longer books? Just not that I felt it warranted it to be a difference to mention why it makes you think of DOS. I dont see play a rpg and see books with short text and go 'ah yes. Short lore books. This reminds me of DOS'

I really dont get what you are getting at honestly. You compiled a lists of complaints (and yes, most of them are complaints) why people think the game is DOS3 rather then BG3 and then get mad when people point out this fact. If you dont want to offer Larian feedback what they can do to combat it im not sure what the purpose of the list is honestly?

Quote
Ho gosh....
Sry for my poor english as non-native one.

I rephrase it more correctly for you to understand (even if I'm pretty sure you don't really want to understand a point of view which is different from yours...)

- BG1 and 2 had 6 man parties
- DOS 1 and 2 had 4 man parties
- BG3 have 4 man parties
- so BG3 is closer in his design to DOS.
that's a fact.
This is not a COMPLAIN, this is not a FEELING, this is a... wait for it... FACT. So don't say something is not a fact when it is.

More, what you say about "feel" is irrelevant.
People can indeed think BG3 feels or doesn't feel like DOS2. But no one can say "4 man parties ? Its totally BG !". And this is why this point participate to explain why BG3 feels like DOS2.

Il try to take into consideration that you arent a native speaker. Im not myself but speak it plainly enough that its not really an issue for me.

And no, sorry its still an opinion and still not a fact. There goes ALOT more into game design then just party size. Just sharing a party size with a different game is not enough to make a game closer in design then another. Its a simularity that they have an not much beyond that. If you said 'both DOS and BG3 currenlty have 4 man parties' then sure. Thats a fact. Hold up il bring up the defenitions of the 2 so we are on the same page:

Opinion: a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
Fact: a thing that is known or proved to be true.

Il try to explain it with a example. I saw a movie a while back that I found HILARIOUS! So I pushed a buddy to go see it. And his opinion was a 'meh' at best. People have different opinions and while we watched the same movie he just dident find it all that great. He couldnt really pinpoint what it was, just that he dident like it.

Thats the same vibe that im getting from everyone who says its 'DOS 3'. I mean we all get that its done by the same company in the same engine that made DOS. But this fact aside people are just screaming 'this isent bg' and have no concise point that makes it such.

Quote
Saying "nah, feeling is personnal" is just a... poor way to denied the influence of game design. If we follow your reasoning it's impossible to make a game who feels like another since "you know it's feelings...".
Absurd. It's like if you said "people find Grave of the fireflies sad but it's not because of the work of his creator, it's just a feeling coming from nowhere". It's absurd.
A feeling didn't just pop-up out of nowhere in the minds of the people.
A feeling is induced by the design, the work the creators put in their creation.

So, definitely putting "4 man parties" in BG3 participate to the feeling of DoS cause it's a clear indicator, a clear difference, undisputable.
Saying otherwise is hypocrisy.

So again, the "4 man-parties" is a difference which participate to make BG3 feels like DoS.


Originally Posted by Demoulius
[quote]Just saying that it FEELS like DOS 3 rather then BG3 is something the developers cant do anything with. They cant bottle the baldurs gate 'feel'. Nor would increasing the party size to 6 man make it a bg game.


Who said that ? Who said "increasing the size to 6 will make it bg" ? Really, who ?
There is just a guy who listed all the difference who participate to make BG3 feels like DoS.
And you summarize his work by a "one difference won't make difference". Yeah obviously. This is why there is more than 50 differences.
It's like saying "one brush stroke wont make a flower". yeah, obivously... This is why painter put more than just "one brush stroke".

Except that 'feeling is personel' is very true and like I said above in an example makes it that people dont perceive things in the same way. Its not a point to do or not do something its just that developers need something more tangible to work with if you want it to feel less like the thing that it feels like. Some of the poitns were 'actionbar' and im wondering if that isent satire honestly. Every RPG has a taskbar? How does the taskbar make you think about DOS when you see it in BG3? (to name just 1 example)

Im not sure what you mean when I say 'one difference wont make difference'? I never said that? And yes you had a big list of differences.... I can also make a big list if I have mulitples that are basicly the same thing but just worded differently.

And who are saying that 6 man parties would make it bg? Aside from the people who are LITERALY pushing for Larian to do that..... What is the entire point of mentioning the party size if you dont want to see it changed? There wouldnt be a point behind it. So im assuming that people who mention it dont like 4 man parties and want to see it changed to 6 man parties. Not a big assumption to make if you ask me. If you are now going to go out and say that it isent something that you want to see changed then you are beeing incredibly disengenous.

Quote
I really try to deal with your stubborness but...
Originally Posted by Demoulius
[quote]Just saying that it FEELS like DOS 3 rather then BG3 is something the developers cant do anything with.

You're saying, the guys can't do a thing about.... their game design ?
Wow.
It's an amazing argument. Larian are lucky to have you to defend them. I mean you litteraly said the guys can't... design.
I accept defeat.

Well nice thing about that, you dont have to. I personally dont think I am the stubborn one here but if you dont want to deal with me....you dont have to.

Im not saying that at all! Im saying that a developer needs clear feedback if you want them to change something. Just saying 'taskbar' (to stay with that example) doesent tell them ANYTHING. What about it? Is it the shape? is it to small? Is it to big? Is it the colours? Is it the location on the screen? Would you rather have round actions rather then square ones?

And before you say But were just making a list here!' yeah well these forums are the feedback and suggestions forums. Pardon me if I take the subjects in this place as such and not just some random list made for shits and giggles. We got off topic forums for that. And if you are offering them feedback, dont act suprised when other people chime in as well.
Posted By: fallenj Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 30/10/20 02:19 AM
Your right, conversations on forums are pointless and the op plus whoever agrees need only to be heard. Not like we are on a forum or anything. Maybe send a email or go to the post office and send the list.
Posted By: Zefhyr Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 30/10/20 09:41 AM
Yeah, yeah demoulius you're completely right. Not stubborn at all.
Creators have no influence on their creation and developpers can't design.
You're the smart ass here and indeed I wont deal with you anymore after this last comment.

A guy did a list of difference so another could take this list and do exactly as Vaell said.
Sadly there are guys like you going crazy and trying to transform fact in feelings.
- a man is black
- a man is white
- a child is black
it's a fact the skin color of the child makes him looks like the first man. It's a thing that's"proved to be true". It's a fact, thank you for the definition.

So the child feels more like the black man childs. It's not a feeling coming out of nowhere, it's a feeling coming from a detail.

As you said, your friend didn't enjoy the movie as much as you because "he couldnt really pinpoint what it was".
The fact that he couldn't do it didn't mean there is no reason. On the contrary ! He feels there was reasons. Maybe it would have helped him if somebody did something like.... I don't know.... a list.
there is not such a thing as coincidence in life. Everything, every thougths, every choices we make, every feelings we have, are the results of an infinity of parameters.
We used the words "coincidence" or "luck" when we can't get them.


But you're right, I'm wrong.

Developpers have no brain, no analysis capacity to used a list of differences and more they have absolutely no control on the feelings we get from the game the are doing.
The horror movies are horror movies by pure luck, the star wars movies feel like star wars movies by pure luck, and BG3 will may be feel like BG or DOS or CoD or Minecraft or Sims just by pure coincidence cause... you know... "it's feelings and it's something the devs can't do anything with".


BTW, thx to you I realize I missjudged a miscellaneous minor items recently...
Some guys in my town tag a cross consisting of 4 gamma on some jewish graves.
I felt like it was an antisemitic act but... as you know... it's just a feeling and, as you say, the author of the tag can't do anything with...
So I must have been wrong and I realized it thx to you ! Thx you so much. For so long I thougth people had a responsibility concerning their actions. But now I realized they didn't have any at all.
It's just my feelings and, as you learn to me, they can't do anything with it.


You are so damn right.
You are contributing lines to me that ive never said. Or are misinterpreting what I said. But my apolagies. I misunderstood a topic in the feedback and suggestions forums to be about that. Must have been mistaken.

My bad!
Sorry if it’s here and I missed it, but one of the biggest reasons it feels just like DOS1/2 to me is they’ve used the same font throughout. Same font with same outline effect, at the same sizes for all three games. The dialogue choice list during conversations follows all the exact same layout too, down to how the tag options are presented eg [DROW] and the same use of asterisks. Definitely makes it feel like a DOS sequel.
I just love how, in a thread titled "List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3" people get upset about how it feels to someone else. I'd quote some, but the absolute mess of some of the posts would take forever to clean up, and if I'm going to be a copy editor, I'll need to get paid for it.

So clearly we cannot have a BG game where the PC is captured, in a cell, at the beginning of the game, because DOS did it. Wait, that can't possibly be right, can it? Didn't we already have a BG game that starts out that way? In fact, aren't there actually 2? Doesn't Dragonspear start out the same way? Then there's BG 2 as well, right?

We also clearly can't have a BG game where we get the bulk of our companions early. Oh, wait, that can't be right either, because, yet again, we have not one, but two games where that happens, Dragonspear and BG 2. "but Rob, we meet more companions later". Hey, that's a very valid point, we do, at least in BG 2, can't say for Dragonspear. Of course, the problem with this argument should be blatantly obvious, should be, but apparently it's not: We had the full game then, we don't now. Now if one has some insider information about how the rest of Act I, Act II and Act III play out, do share. If not, this doesn't seem to be a very valid point.

But 6 man parties! Yeah, that was definitely an option, but what about those of us that did solo runs in BG/BG 2? Were we suddenly not playing BG any more? What about those of us that played in MP with only 4 players, and no NPCs? Were we doing it wrong? Are you really telling me "Look Rob, you can't play BG w/out having a party size of 6"? Could we have more party members? Sure, why not. However, none of the conversations I've ever had about BG were focused on the number of characters in the party, until I came here. We did talk about the characters themselves, but not the number of people that were required in the party to make it a BG game, until I came here. You know what that honestly tells me? That it's not the party size that's the issue, it's here. It's fine that one believes "it doesn't feel like a BG game", but in that vein, telling someone else "it's not about the feelings, it's fact" is counterproductive, and I've laid out exactly why right here in this post. It is about the feels, the topic title is pretty clear on that, right?

As a side note, providing feedback is the purpose of this sub forum. That doesn't mean, however, that one gets to provide their feedback, and nobody else is allowed to discuss it, because the discussion itself is also feedback. If one wants to provide that feedback free from other forum members responding to it, one can simply use the Feedback button on the launcher. It's private, and the only ones that will respond to it are, in fact, the developers.
Posted By: virion Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 30/10/20 01:06 PM
@Isaac

I've read every single post in this thread( Believe me or not lol. You guys are talkative when it comes to BG vs DOS) and I'm missing one thing.
I think what you're trying to achieve is to make a list of " what does it mean to play bg". What exactly creates this feeling of " It's not what I expected". And since it's mostly a subjective thing it's gonna be hella difficult to decide which ones among those 70+ points are ignorable to a BG fan. Most importantly the way the forum works already does it for you.

Is my above assumption correct? I'm trying to prove it below.

You outlined the steps below :
"Step 1 - Was the 'thing' something that does exist in DoS?
Step 2 - Was the 'thing' something that is well known for existing in DoS?
Step 3 - Was the 'thing' something that does exist in BG?
Step 4 - Was the 'thing' something that is well known for existing in BG?
Step 5 - How often have I experienced the 'thing' being discussed?
"

1+2) I understand we will end up with a list of features that are similar between BG3 and DOS2. The one you created is already quite impressive.

2+3)Then we compare BG3 and BG2 to see if it was there. You kinda did it in the discussion altought not the way you imagined so let's say this is something that remains to be done.

5)Most of those will after me lead to discovering that QoL improvements over 20 years are more numerous than we imagined. We will be left with a few points which are things that should be addressed (and already are since they come from this forum and the hot topics are in a separate thread to make sure everyone sees them).




Example :

A)Not managing a quiver of 700+ arrows makes it feel " not like BG". Less micro. Less immersion. Less control. Those arrows appear from thin air? It's silly. But it means less clicking. Less clicking. It's actually better, I don't want to have to manage that. Ever. Despite the fact that I'm 100% conscious this is breaking my immersion every time my archer attacks. Some will agree, some will disagree.

B) Barrel mancy? Well we had off-screen fog mancy in BG.... yeah but it was a spell... And you could choose not to use it. It wasn't cheese. At least it was an immersive cheese. Wait...So barrels are an non-immersive cheese. We don't want barrels.

Based on the above, if someone feels it's a serious problem, they make a thread on the forum. If it ends up having countless pages and new answers popping off then clearly it's something to consider. A lot of people feel moved by the subject. If it gets forgotten...well... too bad.

A good example can be my thread about random encounters. Seemed important to me but Larian clearly is not going in that direction and most people reaction to the thread was "meh".
Posted By: Zefhyr Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 30/10/20 01:45 PM

Ok.

robertthebard
We all get a feeling is a feeling and everyone can have different one, etc.
However this argument have is limits.

Because "feelings" don't pop-up out of nowhere. "feelings" result of a group of parameters and that is a fact.
"feelings" are the results of a lot of parameters. Some the devs have no control on it (like your pesonnal background, etc) and others they have control on it like... all the game design.


So, this thread have no more intention than compiling the parameters which participate to give the DoS feeling.
Nothing more.

People can argue about the pertinence of one or more of this parameters.
But, people should keep in mind than this post in NOT a complain post and is NOT a list of what should be modified.

This is not about "is this parameter a good one in the game ?" it's about "did this parameter participate to the DoS feeling ?" and that's all for this topic !


It's just a list of what participate to give the DoS feeling.
The OP didn't say all this parameters should be modified. He just said "here is a list of what makes BG3 feel like DoS.
And the list is pretty accurate.

virion,
Yep, the arrow management could be another paramater to add. Does it mean it have to be changed ? I don't think so but this is not the point of this topic.
The point is "arrows management" participate to the general feeling as for the random encounters.

It would be really more interesting to argue about this list than about should Larian do or not do it because this is not what this list is about.

We could too discuss about which points could change the feelings. It could be interesting as long as it doesn't become a argument over the ressources, the will, the difficulty, the time of Larian.
Just a pure and theorical discussion about it.
Posted By: virion Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 30/10/20 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by Zefhyr


Yep, the arrow management could be another paramater to add. Does it mean it have to be changed ? I don't think so but this is not the point of this topic.
The point is "arrows management" participate to the general feeling as for the random encounters.

It would be really more interesting to argue about this list than about should Larian do or not do it because this is not what this list is about.

We could too discuss about which points could change the feelings. It could be interesting as long as it doesn't become a argument over the ressources, the will, the difficulty, the time of Larian.
Just a pure and theorical discussion about it.




Put this way it makes way more sense. Definitely. I thought about it for a long time before publishing this post. And I think what we are trying to achieve is get an as objective as possible description of BG2 success.

Putting aside "The list" for now, it becomes more a question of what made BG BG?

Sven in one of his interviews said something very smart regarding this subject." I don't think what was in the game actually mattered. What materred is they redefined what is an RPG. And we have to do the same. Somehow."

I think he was correct. I played BG2 each year for +/- 15 years before I got bored.
I could spend hours listing all the things that made me redo the same game over and over. And hours listing reasons for which I won't install it again. The very same reasons for which I played POE2 once and will never come back to it again.

My point is If you add to BG3 everything that made BG2 great you will obtain a game from 2000 with 3d graphics.So there has to be more to it. We will discuss if further in details , point by point. But this is my starting point.

BG3 needs to give us something that no other title managed to provide us. Including BG2. I think those who see this game as DOS3 want the "WOW" effect. Cause that's what BG2 gave us. (And that's why Bioware cancelled BG3...).


Regarding Larian resources I couldn't agree more. It's for them to decide what they can or cannot do.

Regarding the list:
It will take time. I will give it a try later in the week probably to go through point 3+4. It's supposed to be a point by point statement so there's really nothing to discuss. It has to be done.

Then we can try to engage on #5 even if i have no idea how we're supposed to do it for now. I think we should replace this by " Was there something in BG2 that ISN'T present in BG3. ".

All of the above is more of the data for brainstorming.

All of this should lead to step #6 : Which of the items could/should be changed. Those are ...design decisions. They are subjective by nature. But that's why we are on this forum. Hopefully we will be able to agree on a list of bullet points.

Basically only step 6 is the start of the discussion.
I'm a fan of DOS2, the original BG and D&D and though I agree with several points of this list, I strongly disagree with just as many. The list comes across as a bit of a DOS2 haters thread tbh.

I don't care one iota that the narrator had a small role in DOS2 - she is OUTSTANDING (as indeed the narrator of DOS2 also was). Some of the criticism seems contradictory; like wanting less useless loot (agree strongly - incentivizes anti-RP "loot goblinism") while wanting more detailed (useless) loot/books (disagree strongly - snooze fest!).

The list would be served with re-organizing and perhaps linking to separate threads where issues can be better explained/discussed though.

My top personal BG3 EA pet peeves:
1. HATE the overly convoluted loot/gear/environmental effect focus which distracts from the class focus.
2. HATE the lack of day/night cycle. For storyline/progression purposes it detracts from BG3 in a way it did not in DOS2. Enables random ambushes etc.
3. HATE the cumbersome party movement system. If one character jumps/hides the rest should follow automatically if able and chained/grouped. Stop needless milling about when changing active character. Make clicking on portrait to change active character more responsive.

Posted By: Zefhyr Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 30/10/20 04:01 PM

virion, it's a pleasure to read your comments.
I'm happy if you better understand what is the point of this topic because there is a lot of topic which complain but this one isn't and it's why I like him more.

I think the sentence of Sven is really... risky.

If by " I don't think what was in the game actually mattered." Sven means they don't have to keep the places, the story, the npc, etc. I'll say hell yeah, sure.
But if it means they don't care about what constitue the core of the game it's a fail, from my point of view.

If by "What materred is they redefined what is an RPG. And we have to do the same. Somehow." Sven means they have to do something amazing and which will become a reference without loosing the essence of the serie, so yeah, sure, obviously it's a good idea.
But if it means they don't care about the legacy of BG and jsut want to "redefine what is an RPG" so it's a BIG fail. Cause I don't get why take the licence so.

I mean when Redprojekt did The Witcher 3, they "redefine what is an RPG" but they did it without forgetting the legacy from the two first opus.

If they just want to "redefine the rpg" I don't know why they ask for the BG licence (except for the huge fan base and money) ?

We see a lot of games which "redefined" rpgs or fps, or rtc or etc. And they do it as stand-alone or as "game+1".
But doing something who redefined the rpg doesn't mean you have to forget the legacy of the precedent opus. On the contrary, I think they will hardly create something legendary without gathering the expectations from both DoS and BG gamers.
Posted By: virion Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 30/10/20 04:29 PM
Zephyr : Well...I think the same, hence why I'm willing to get involved in this discussion. I think we can reach some kind of interesting conclusions. Hard to proceed before what's described above is done.

They took the license...well cause wider playerbase. And because half of their crew knows this game. They are BG fans just as anyone else who ever touched an RPG and is more than 15 years old. Doing BG3 instead of DOS3 was a reasonable risk thought. He wouldn't take the license if he didn't think they can do it.

Fun fact, when CD-Projekt did witcher 3 .... they got a lawsuit from the writer of the The Witcher book series. The story is long and in truth everyone thinks the writer is basically silly( he had the choice to sell it for 10% of all income for the next 15 years from everything sold with WITCHER in it's name or take 10k dollars. He chose option 2. He regrets it). The thing is someone didn't respect the rules from the book XD. By far. By the time Witche 3 happens wticher was supposed to be dead lol.


Jokes aside, if they want to reach the 90% score and legendary status for the next 20 years then I assume making both sides of the community happy is the way to go. We'll see if it all boils down to " getting closer to BG2". Maybe it does. .
Hopefully it doesn't. Build upwards, not sideways. If I wanted BG 2, instead of something new, I've got it, 3 times including the EE.
Posted By: Tarorn Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 30/10/20 06:41 PM
I’ve not played dos games so I sit slightly outside the topic, but I played D&D for many years back in the day & this game is certainly hitting the mark for me in that space.
I can throughly understand why players of dos who are lovers of d&d or not would want a different feel to the game.
However if dos2 is highly regarded as one of the best ever rpgs and larian has created a new dos engine for this game wouldn’t it be obvious that they would take things that gave them success previously and add some of that to this bg3 game.
The team clearly enjoys d&d and is working hard to create something very special here - but it is a pretty tricky beast to please both hard core d&d fans and at the same time leave out much of larian influences from what they know is a winning formula.
I think with time & feedback it will land somewhere in between & that’s fine with me - maybe not so for purists - but is it really reasonable to expect any different?
Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
To be clear, this is not for stating changes to the base rules of 5e or even decrying some of these elements. This is to create a master list of all the elements of the game that make it ‘feel’ like a DoS game, rather than a Baldur’s Gate/D&D game, given that it is such a popular forum topic. I also acknowledge that I have shamelessly stolen many of these items from other posters, I cannot thank you all enough. Generally speaking, here is the logical process I used for inclusion on this list:

Step 1 - Was the 'thing' something that does exist in DoS?
Step 2 - Was the 'thing' something that is well known for existing in DoS?
Step 3 - Was the 'thing' something that does exist in BG?
Step 4 - Was the 'thing' something that is well known for existing in BG?
Step 5 - How often have I experienced the 'thing' being discussed?

I will keep this list updated if people wish to add to/remove from it:

1. Choice of color palette
2. Origin characters vs NPC companions
3. All Origin characters discovered nearly immediately in the game rather than organically throughout the entire story.
4. World full of meaningless items
5. World full of meaningless containers/locked chest with very little of value in them
6. Battles based in the environment and not in Character Class
7. Height (King of the Hill gameplay)
8. Backstab (only lacking the ground indicator from DoS)
9. Removing Class identity by making each character a Swiss Army knife, able to do everything (converting many Actions into Bonus Actions that normally only a Rogue would have, all classes can use scrolls, all classes have massive mobility in combat due to Jump, etc.)
10. Exactly the same starting pattern. Start as a prisoner on the vessel (boat/nautiloid) of our mentally flogging enemies (Magisters/Mindflayer). Vessel is attacked and we must take advantage of this to escape. Only everything does not go as planned and we fall off (void/water) and we are saved from dying by a mysterious force. Then we arrive on a beach and we wake up. Proceed to small settlement nearby.
11. Barrelmancy
12. Surfaces *everywhere*
13. Surfaces having overpowered effects beyond just damage
14. Food everywhere that is better healing than everything else
15. Encounter design that assumes you are fully rested for each fight.
16. Every fight involves flashy gimmicks and enemies using a host of special items (elemental arrows, grenades, healing potions)
17. No normal enemies
18. Reused DoS items that don’t exist in D&D 5e (Trap Kit)
19. Succeeding on a thieving check but the target magically knows you stole from them a few seconds later.
20. Enemies have insanely high HP values, needlessly lengthening combat
21. Chaining party members and movement system
22. Shared inventory space
23. Inventory management and UI
24. Swap any gear on and off in combat
25. Screen shake on ability selection, regardless of activation
26. Overly flashy effects for mundane actions (Jump, etc)
27. Stealth sight cones
28. Swap spells nearly at-will
29. Limited to 1 summon per character
30. Being knocked prone ends your turn
31. Turn Based vs Real Time with Pause
32. Overpowering low level characters via magic items (Doubling Magic Missiles damage)
33. Closeup character models for Portraits
34. Teleportation fast travel accessible from anywhere
35. Narrator’s voice is Malady from DoS 2
36. Normal attack with duel-wielding weapons attacks with both at the same time
37. Reused ability names and animations (Great Weapon Master is called “All In”)
38. Same highlighting mechanic of climbable surfaces
39. Same blocky item reveal UI that doesn’t actually show the item (pressing Alt)
40. Same revealing a hidden item graphic
41. Terrible pathing that will lead to allies unintentionally walking over surfaces and traps
42. Merchant UI
43. Giving free items to the merchant increases your ‘likeable’ score for that merchant, resulting in lower prices
44. Stealing from someone with one character while you are talking to them with another character
45. Giant contiguous maps rather than small and more discrete maps
46. 4 party limit
47. Same map and minimap UI (showing interactable ground, map markers)
48. Hotbar UI (primarily functionality)
49. Resurrection mechanics, animation (being able to magically teleport someone when resurrecting them)
50. Needing to double click to cast ‘self’ range spells
51. Inability to target party members for spells/abilities via their portrait
52. No non-combat exp or reward for avoiding combat
53. Only able to customize 1 character at the beginning
54. Excessively long ‘AI thinking’ delays in combat
55. Lockpicking progress bar
56. Most books and item descriptions extremely short
57. No need to identify magic items
58. Showing the percentage to-hit
59. Being able to right click on an enemy an ‘examine’ them to learn all of their stats
60. Moving cursor around a target can change whether you hit the target or the ranged attack is intercepted.
61. Companions completely block movement
62. Same party management UI in multiplayer
63. No day/night cycle, it’s always the same time of day in the location
64. Cannot adjust starting gear
65. Overabundance of magic items that remove the need to pick certain spells or abilities (Amulets for Speak with Dead, Misty Step, staff with Create Water, etc.)
66. No Fog of War
67. Ability to keep one or more party members out of combat via Stealth
68. No tracking of normal arrows
69. Wallhack scouting via camera manipulation
70. Aimbotting AI (automatically knowing which party member has the ‘least’ in a defensive stat and focusing solely on them)
71. No random encounters
72. Infinitely summonable Zombie companion
*edits below*
73. Access to enemy statistics by "Examining" them. (Note: DoS has this mechanic but locks some information behind spending points a particular skill, while BG did not have this at all).
74. Main theme music (credit to Endolex for demonstrating the audible difference a BG based theme would sound like -> https://soundcloud.com/endolex/baldurs-gate-iii-alternate-main-menu-arrangement)



First of all great list. Thank you combining these points.
I would like to add a point.
XX. No interesting magic battles with protections that need to be removed before you can do damage.
I understand it is early acces and you cannot get to a high level spells. But I also hope they don't forget to add it later on.
I think we who agree with this thread shall all send this list to Larian through the feedback form smile
There y'all go, edited the OP to remove about 90% of the negative responses in this thread.
How do people feel about adding:

- 100% chance to hit attacks and spells still intercepted by terrain between attacker and target

To me that's a trait of DoS (can't count how many times attacks were intercepted by terrain even though there was no tooltip) and I've seen it come up a handful of times now in different posts.
A good list OP, even if a lot of people seem to disagree.

I would, personally add another point:

DOS2 act 1 ends on a boat ride out of Fort Joy, BG3 EA also ends on a small boat ride to the Moonrise Towers. Currently we have no other ways to get to MT other than that raft in the Underdark, but obviously that is a subject to change once Larian opens up the other 2 paths to MT - the mountain pass and the forest path.

And as to all these feeling conversations going on.
1. Does BG3 feel like a D&D game set in the Forgotten Realms? Sure.

2. Does it feel like a Baldur's Gate game? Currently? Not really.

3. Does BG3 feel like a DOS game? Yep.

To explain myself:

1. It does have the lore clearly, references to things that had happened in the FR. Faerunian gods are more or less present. The races, the xenophobia of the drow. It's all there. The monsters. This list could go on forever. But yes, it does have the feeling of a D&D game. So Larian doesn't really need to do much more than polish the stuff we currently have, fix those low lvl 'archdruids' and 'red dragons' clearly. Fix the HP bloating, and the game will be in a really good state D&D wise.

2. Aside from the shared title and the promise of visiting the city in the future? Ehh... that's the thing.

In BG1 you start off doing mundane tasks for the people in your life - you can help Firebeard get his identify scroll back (or you can be a dick and keep it), you can get an antidote for Dreppin's cow, help a guard get his sword (without alerting his superior that he's got a hangover and forgot it - or you can be a massive douchebag and spill the guard's secret to his superior). There are those assassins of course who want your head, rats in a cellar. All of this servers as the perfect tutorial - on movement, on combat, quest rewards, quest experience and all that juicy stuff. It's all introduced to the player gradually, you get a feeling of home (more or less) from the tutorial zone at Candlekeep, you get some worrisome rumors about iron shortage, but you don't really feel them as of yet. You also meet the closest person you have to a sister - Imoen. Then, you follow your father figure out of the 'gilded fortress' and you lose him, are introduced to your nemesis as well, and with no way of going back to Candlekeep you set out to figure out what's going on (as a lead you can choose to loot Gorion's body and get his letter from Elminster, the one pointing you towards Khaleed and Jaheira). From that point, you are free to do as you choose.

BG2, sure, you start off as a prisoner, you meet your captor and nemesis in the first minute of the game. Then you grasp an opportunity when Imoen (closest thing to a sister eh? wink ) frees herself and gets an opportunity to free you. Again, you can free Minsc and Jaheira that are locked in the same room as you, or you can be a douche and leave them in their cages. And just like Candlekeep of BG1, Irenicus' prison serves 2 purposes - a tutorial zone (for people who skipped BG1 perhaps) and to introduce you to Irenicus (via journals, his experiments, Ellesime's room + clones), to give you a reason to hate him, a singular purpose that would drive you forward. And while, you start off at lvl 9+ in BG2, the monsters you meet aren't too outlandish for your lvl.

Conclusion being - both BG games have a similar starting zones, BG1 you are just a newbie trying to understand what's happening and why, it grounds you, gives you a reason to care about your foster father's imminent death, and introduces Sarevok perfectly and gives you a good reason to seek justice/vengeance/revenge for what Sarevok has done. Same goes for BG2, but you have a more personal reason to hate Irenicus, after all, he experimented on YOU and your friends got caught in the crossfire.

BG3 you start off abducted with a mind flayer tadpole in your head, aboard nautiloid, luckily freed from the holding pods by the confusion and damage caused by the dragon riders, we are free to explore, there are a lot of dead mind flayers scattered around, there are a lot of intellect devourers running around and on top of that the mind flayers decided it was a good idea to plane jump into Avernus, of all things, we don't know why they chose the hells and not some other plane but fine, the githyanki dragon riders are not easily lost, even in the goddamn hells, sure, we get to fight low lvl imps while in Avernus, we encounter a mind flayer dueling some devils, we get ordered to use the transponder we get to the helm and plane jump back to the prime material plane and we conveniently crash land on a beach, we somehow survive the fall from the ship, caaaaaaause magic tadpole I guess? But is not all, still at lvl 1, we get to explore a bit of the beach and fight off goddamn intellect devourers?

WHOEVER THOUGHT IT WAS A GOOD IDEA TO START THE GAME LIKE THAT? DOESN'T IT ALL SOUND HELLA CONTRIVED TO ANYONE WHO HAS ANY IDEA WHAT IS GOING ON? FOR BEING A DAMN TUTORIAL ZONE NO LESS?

Doesn't it at all sound like one of these 'chosen one' stories? No? And from the get go no less. Sure, Gorion's ward was a chosen one, but (s)he had no idea at the very beginning of the journey.

Watching dragon riders, fire explosions, the mindflayer duel with a devil - it's all a pretty flashy spectacle, if highly inappropriate for a start of a lvl 1 newbie campaign. Also, in contrary to previous BG games, we don't have a clear nemesis. Not a single figurehead to hate, sure, we can hate githyanki, can hate the devils and demons of Avernus, can hate the mind flayers. Mind you we don't even hear of 'the Absolute' until later in the act. There is nobody like Sarevok or Irenicus to absolutely despise for what they've done.

Sorry for this long post, but it's the reason why, for me personally, BG3 doesn't really have that BG feeling. Starting zone alone looks like a (bad) DMs wet dream. Also, the PC of BG3 shouldn't even be alive, but fine, magic tadpole.

3. I think that OP has captured the feeling of DOS in BG3 better, so. wink
Posted By: virion Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 31/10/20 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
How do people feel about adding:

- 100% chance to hit attacks and spells still intercepted by terrain between attacker and target

To me that's a trait of DoS (can't count how many times attacks were intercepted by terrain even though there was no tooltip) and I've seen it come up a handful of times now in different posts.



I feel this is a bug not a feature ^^ From my perspective it would equal to say " Dos2 crashed on launch during Ea, BG3 also. Same feature". You get the idea.
Posted By: malks Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 31/10/20 05:38 PM
Great list.

Not everything should change, but definetely worth Larian taking a look.

Most points are already in discussion somewhere in the forums.
This thread should be pinned.
Don't forget it has the same beginning story arc:

1. You are on a ship
2. The ship is destroyed
3. You don't die from the calamity because some unknown power saved you: DOS2 quote "I have plans for you child"
4. You wake up on land
5. You walk around to meet and possibly join your companions
6. You are united with your companions by your ailment (Sorcerer vs tadpole)
The fact that this game feels more like DOS than BG isn't even a matter of opinion, it's a fact, so there is no point even trying to argue that.

Capturing the aesthetic and essence of BG I and II was the main thing Larian had to do to make it a "BG Game", and they did not do that. Is it a worse game for it? No, it is still a great game, it just doesn't feel like Baldurs Gate. I wish people would stop trying to defend this fact, there is no good that can come from defending the un-defendable. Unfortunately the only way to get a better product from any company on this planet, is to complain and give feedback. If all you do is give credit to the company, you get what they give you without further ado. Larian is making this game to make money, not because they are your friends or because they are super cool. Treat a company like a company.

Now, I hope all you guys complaining that this is not a BG game realise that the story, soundtrack, aesthetic etc are not going to change at this point, EA or not. It's already too late to change most of what is in the game.

What we can push for is mostly QOL improvements, like character pathing, UI, bartering, barelmancy, 20+hp Goblins, npc's packed with scrolls and special arrows, etc.
Posted By: virion Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 01/11/20 09:48 AM
Originally Posted by Dogmatis
The fact that this game feels more like DOS than BG isn't even a matter of opinion, it's a fact, so there is no point even trying to argue that.

Capturing the aesthetic and essence of BG I and II was the main thing Larian had to do to make it a "BG Game", and they did not do that. Is it a worse game for it? No, it is still a great game, it just doesn't feel like Baldurs Gate. I wish people would stop trying to defend this fact, there is no good that can come from defending the un-defendable. Unfortunately the only way to get a better product from any company on this planet, is to complain and give feedback. If all you do is give credit to the company, you get what they give you without further ado. Larian is making this game to make money, not because they are your friends or because they are super cool. Treat a company like a company.

Now, I hope all you guys complaining that this is not a BG game realise that the story, soundtrack, aesthetic etc are not going to change at this point, EA or not. It's already too late to change most of what is in the game.

What we can push for is mostly QOL improvements, like character pathing, UI, bartering, barelmancy, 20+hp Goblins, npc's packed with scrolls and special arrows, etc.


Well that's precisely what this thread is about. How to make it a BG game without stripping it of what's best in DOS, giving it back it's identity without going back to year 2000.
Posted By: Grantig Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 01/11/20 10:39 AM
I think there are three factions:
- Those who actually hoped BG3 would be a DOS3.
- Those who hope it would not be DOS3, for all the things they didn't like in DOS.
- Those you don't care much.

I am part of the second group, as for me combat in DOS was always some sort of ironic running gag with all its ridiculous ground effects dependency, barrelmancy and the fact that if would would attack a simple shepherd you would find out, he has double your hp, attack with a poison throwing staff, set the whole group on fire in one turn and has like 20 combat skills.
And there is way to much of this in BG3.
But anyway I can only complain to myself for thinking Larian would or could create a game where combat is not an intended huge joke.
I can live with a not so good combat system however, if the storytelling is good enough.
Unfortunately it isn't, as especially the companions over-act, react to things strangely or in wrong order, whatever, that's already discussed elsewhere. Also here, typical Larian disability to provide real good stories, aside of snappy npcs.
Posted By: virion Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 01/11/20 11:49 AM
Originally Posted by Grantig
I think there are three factions:
- Those who actually hoped BG3 would be a DOS3.
- Those who hope it would not be DOS3, for all the things they didn't like in DOS.
- Those you don't care much.

I am part of the second group, as for me combat in DOS was always some sort of ironic running gag with all its ridiculous ground effects dependency, barrelmancy and the fact that if would would attack a simple shepherd you would find out, he has double your hp, attack with a poison throwing staff, set the whole group on fire in one turn and has like 20 combat skills.
And there is way to much of this in BG3.
But anyway I can only complain to myself for thinking Larian would or could create a game where combat is not an intended huge joke.
I can live with a not so good combat system however, if the storytelling is good enough.
Unfortunately it isn't, as especially the companions over-act, react to things strangely or in wrong order, whatever, that's already discussed elsewhere. Also here, typical Larian disability to provide real good stories, aside of snappy npcs.


Well most of the people here agree BG3 == good game BUT it lacks something. In the end what you listed here ( combat, characters having strange reactions sometimes, barrelmancy.

And In my post below I'm trying to pin point it.
Posted By: Zefhyr Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 01/11/20 12:12 PM

You forget a big category :
Those who liked DoS3 but hope to have the game Larian promises which means they hoped BG3 would be BG3
Posted By: virion Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 01/11/20 12:48 PM
Based on my discussion with OP, Zephyr and others I think we agree ultimately BG3 is a good game but a game that lacks" something". That something is a either a feature we can trace down and describe either us being old. We hope it's the first thing. Hence why the exercise below.

Link to list here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cOIKHlr1FoWGjJTrVv6AkQzgA6Q-Dq6UeiMIW3rWHDI/edit?usp=sharing

Please check out the below instructions. In point #1+2+3 described what is visible in this list in each column and #4 is what I want from you guys.

1) The OP created a list that is a list of features that are exactly the same in BG3 as they are in DOS 2.
2) Based on this I created a list of how those features compare to BG2(Where they the same or not? If yes, how did they work?).

Those two lists above are purely objective. They are facts. If you think something in one of those two lists above is wrong don't hesitate to let us know. There's nothing to agree on here. Either a feature is there in the way described in the list or isn't. I didn't explain all the details in some cases(like surfaces) as I simply didn't use them so often in BG2 for instance so my knowledge in this area is a bit shallow.


3) I added a comment explaining:

A) How this feature impacted BG2(combat, team management, character building)
B) How can it be implemented in BG3

The point is here to get the best of those features that created memorable gameplay and try to move them to the reality of BG3. For those which are game defining. Which of them are game-defining? Well... To some extent, we will cover this in this topic.


4) I highlighted every row in a color.

A) Red: Should be removed from the list as they either were included in BG2 in the exact same form (and were also a problem there), weren't because of a different D&D edition, or weren't but BG2 version of the feature is simply a downgrade(like pick locking progression bar in BG3), or are a major thread but aren't a difference BG2 vs BG3 but rather a difference BG3 vs D&D rules.

B) Yellow: Those are subjects to be discussed. Those points either aren't part of a larger thread, weren't discussed at all or were discussed very briefly but threads quickly died down.( Random encounters for instance. I didn't hear many voices in their favor even if they played a major part in BG2 and as so this feature might be considered obsolete).

C) Green: Those subjects that are either major threads or major elements BG2 was known for that aren't present in this opus. Descriptions of items could be one of them. I included some minor features that seem to be a detail but ultimately weren't in BG2 and changing them back to resemble the old version would be more of a gesture towards BG fans without requiring major changes in the game.

IMPORTANT: WE TALK ABOUT +/- 80 FEATURES AT ONCE. DO NOT LOOSE SIGHT OF THE FOCUS OF THIS THREAD. WE WANT TO TRACE DOWN FEATURES DEFINING GAMEPLAY OF BG AND NOT DISCUSS EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. THE MOST IMPORTANT PART IS THE COLOR ASSIGNED TO A SUBJECT. THAT'S WHAT MADE BG2 GREAT.

Example: Random encounters
Pros and cons listed in the list.
Very rarely brought up on this forum. Game defining? Not really. You can drop them of BG2 and still have the same game.
Posted By: Shinshi Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 01/11/20 04:16 PM
Original list with my input on the issues (no one I recon cares). For refence I am a DM in PnP and started with 2e AD&D and played all DnD games in computer since OG Eye of the Beholder

Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong

1. Choice of color palette
Zero F's are given original wolfenstein is also fully different than last wolfenstein.

2. Origin characters vs NPC companions
Yes this is DoS style.

3. All Origin characters discovered nearly immediately in the game rather than organically throughout the entire story.
This is a weak argument, temple of elemental evil has almost all your characters being build and most/best npc's join you in homlet. yes it is DoS, but yes its also ToEE.

4. World full of meaningless items
Yes and I love it! In PnP I use alot of "meaningless items" for my players as trade items for when they hit the next town/city. However its a bit overdone, less 1 lbs + 1 coin items would be nice

5. World full of meaningless containers/locked chest with very little of value in them
Yes this is anoying, but most anoying is that you cant really see if you opened and "owned" container (the one that shows a red icon). Instead make it closed icon and opened icon, instead of color

6. Battles based in the environment and not in Character Class
If you are a 5e DM and you dont use enviroment stop playing PnP, if you dont like it in a RPG campaign in a computer game you are stuck in 1990! Since you cannot really use spells creative as with PnP, enviroment helps creativity

7. Height (King of the Hill gameplay)
Uhrm, there are actuall rules for height advantage in the dmg/ph for the game! Anyone complaining has no clue how battle encounters work in DnD

8. Backstab (only lacking the ground indicator from DoS)
Mey, tooltip shows it in the left bottom corner at to hit

9. Removing Class identity by making each character a Swiss Army knife, able to do everything (converting many Actions into Bonus Actions that normally only a Rogue would have, all classes can use scrolls, all classes have massive mobility in combat due to Jump, etc.)
This is the main thing with 5E ruleset. Every class is a swiss army knife. Everyone can stealth, everyone can open locks (being proficient makes you better, not just skilled). Everyone can use a scroll is meh and having some bonus actions is a creative way of dealing with turnbased rounds.

10. Exactly the same starting pattern. Start as a prisoner on the vessel (boat/nautiloid) of our mentally flogging enemies (Magisters/Mindflayer). Vessel is attacked and we must take advantage of this to escape. Only everything does not go as planned and we fall off (void/water) and we are saved from dying by a mysterious force. Then we arrive on a beach and we wake up. Proceed to small settlement nearby.

11. Barrelmancy
Yes this is an issue, I stacked them all in the campsite and it bugged my save game. Gunpowder I would remove or make very special (its an "magic" item in 2nd edition I believe in 5e also). The alcohol barrels I would like to see as trade goods. Oil is ok, water is ok

12. Surfaces *everywhere*
This is something from DoS but it works very well in DnD as difficult terrain. Alot of encounters in the PnP adventures have some form of difficult terrain, like lava, fire, rockpiles, entangling vines etc. Its not overdone imho. A bit less "water surfaces" would be nice. The issues with cantrips creating surfaces is something that is logical, but not covered in PnP 5e very good. However I am going to use it more as its "logical"

13. Surfaces having overpowered effects beyond just damage
Not overpowered, you just need to manage your movement better, works for a pc game, not really for Mind Eye Theather PnP style (if you dont use battlemaps)

14. Food everywhere that is better healing than everything else
Yes this is an issue, not that its everywhere, just that it heals. As tradegoods it works.

15. Encounter design that assumes you are fully rested for each fight.
No this is not true. Your lack of skills and knowledge of your characters doesnt mean the encounters are bad. Most heavy encounters have other ways to deal with them. In my first playthrough I had problems with minotaur encounter, bullete encounter when it joined a different encounter near the tree and fighting goblins from the entrance to the camp (second playthrough it was better and thrid playthrough I did the "work arround")

16. Every fight involves flashy gimmicks and enemies using a host of special items (elemental arrows, grenades, healing potions)
This is also not true, but those that are are the same as with different games. Why would an npc/mob not be allowed to use the same tools as the players. Also if you lack skills in dealing with them dont play.

17. No normal enemies
What are normal enemies? Goblins? Brain-eaters? Undead? Bandits? Owlbear? Hag? Redcaps? Harpies? These are in the monstrous manual for 5e.

18. Reused DoS items that don’t exist in D&D 5e (Trap Kit)
Trap kit? Didnt find it my 3 playthroughs, or is it disarm kit?

19. Succeeding on a thieving check but the target magically knows you stole from them a few seconds later.
Yes this is an issue and should be resolved

20. Enemies have insanely high HP values, needlessly lengthening combat
This is part of computer games, also PnP battles take much longer than in game. also Bullete has recommended/average HP of 94, Minotaur 76, Goblin Boss 21, Goblin 7. So if you have problems with HP go compain at DnD creaters not BG3 creaters. (see montrous manual)

21. Chaining party members and movement system
Wait what now?

22. Shared inventory space
Yeh, I miss the rules of moving my rogue to the wizard to hand over the potion of healing so he can use it. yeh ofcourse not

23. Inventory management and UI
This is anoying yes (management not UI). Containers moving to top when you put something in it, instead of staying at the next open spot is anoying if you want to put all books in one container

24. Swap any gear on and off in combat
This was in BG and BG 2 aswell, yes its not in the rules, but this is the liberty you need for making pc games. (this was in all other computer games based on DnD too)

25. Screen shake on ability selection, regardless of activation
meh

26. Overly flashy effects for mundane actions (Jump, etc)
meh

27. Stealth sight cones
meh

28. Swap spells nearly at-will
what now? I cannot swap prepared spells with unprepared without resting. Also if you accidently select MM instead of EB I would love to have the ability to change it.

29. Limited to 1 summon per character
Meh

30. Being knocked prone ends your turn
This is rule approved, if you get knocked down you need to spend your next turn to get up

31. Turn Based vs Real Time with Pause
Meh, yes its DoS and not BG2, but what works works,

32. Overpowering low level characters via magic items (Doubling Magic Missiles damage)
You get this item technically at level 5 (though we have level cap) and the use is limited. At this point you should have 2 times attacking fighters and lvl 3 fireballs.

33. Closeup character models for Portraits
Meh, make a picture of yourself upload it

34. Teleportation fast travel accessible from anywhere
yes this is a bit of a shame, though its part of a pc game. Easily solved by giving and item and explaining how teleport/fast travel points work. However fast travel drops random encounters. This is an issue with Larian games since divine divinity.

35. Narrator’s voice is Malady from DoS 2
Yes this happens when a voice actor is ussed she is also in pathfinder kingmaker, go complain about that.

36. Normal attack with duel-wielding weapons attacks with both at the same time
My rogue did this wonderfully in my second playthrough

37. Reused ability names and animations (Great Weapon Master is called “All In”)
Meh, shame snowflakes skills are not in.

38. Same highlighting mechanic of climbable surfaces
Meh, if it works in the past it doesnt need to change

39. Same blocky item reveal UI that doesn’t actually show the item (pressing Alt)
meh

40. Same revealing a hidden item graphic
meh if it works in the past it doesnt need to change

41. Terrible pathing that will lead to allies unintentionally walking over surfaces and traps
actually this happens sometimes, but its because they cant move through characters. The AI will stop moving if you jump over fire and the group cant reach that character without going through it. Its lack of player skill if it happens.

42. Merchant UI
Meh, if it works in the past it doesnt need to change. However I nicer UI to begin with would be nice

43. Giving free items to the merchant increases your ‘likeable’ score for that merchant, resulting in lower prices
This is a feature not a bug and if you give me free stuff I am more happy to do something for you. It should reset again at some point though

44. Stealing from someone with one character while you are talking to them with another character
This is a good thing and happens in real life too. I distract while my friend lifts your wallet. Real Life illusionist anyone?

45. Giant contiguous maps rather than small and more discrete maps
This is not true, we have 2 main maps in early access and a large portion of smaller maps. Games in the past could not handle this, its an upgrade not a bug

46. 4 party limit
Yes this is anoying, however alot of games have alot of different party sizes, I would like to see this go to 5 or 6, but if we get 4 we get 4. It will force a reballance of all encounters though

47. Same map and minimap UI (showing interactable ground, map markers)
This is a shame, but it is as it is.

48. Hotbar UI (primarily functionality)
Meh

49. Resurrection mechanics, animation (being able to magically teleport someone when resurrecting them)
This is a gameplay thing, freedom for a game and it helps out when you character dies in a spot where if you resurrect him/her he/she dies again. Also be happy you get resurrection as

50. Needing to double click to cast ‘self’ range spells
meh, this has nothing to do with BG or DoS

51. Inability to target party members for spells/abilities via their portrait
this is anoying but has nothing to do with BG or DoS

52. No non-combat exp or reward for avoiding combat
This is bad, more xp for quest rewards would be nice

53. Only able to customize 1 character at the beginning
if you are going to complain about meeting all the other characters so fast, you cannot complain about this. That said, being able to build your party from start is classical DnD, though not even BG

54. Excessively long ‘AI thinking’ delays in combat
this has nothing to do with BG or DoS

55. Lockpicking progress bar
this has nothing to do with BG or DoS

56. Most books and item descriptions extremely short
Be glad that there is lore in the game in the form of books.

57. No need to identify magic items
Yes this is a valid complaint, however after discovering an item for the first time and you do a second playthrough its more a hazzle

58. Showing the percentage to-hit
wauw, the complains are getting absurd. Instead of asking for an armor class number and figuring out what number you need to throw you are given a percentage. Feetback on dice rolls yes, but it being shown as percentage is absurd nitpicking

59. Being able to right click on an enemy an ‘examine’ them to learn all of their stats
this is the same as 73 I think (didnt understand this one until I went down to 73). This should not be possible unless class specific (champion and bard I believe)

60. Moving cursor around a target can change whether you hit the target or the ranged attack is intercepted.
yes this is part of 3d models and world instead of 2d world in BG. complaining about this, is complaing about electric trains instead of steam trains. Game technology evolves

61. Companions completely block movement
as it supposed to, when was the last time you could walk through a different person?

62. Same party management UI in multiplayer
meh

63. No day/night cycle, it’s always the same time of day in the location
has nothing to do with BG and DoS

64. Cannot adjust starting gear
you cannot adjust starting skills, which is more anoying, its a valid point though

65. Overabundance of magic items that remove the need to pick certain spells or abilities (Amulets for Speak with Dead, Misty Step, staff with Create Water, etc.)
Check the DMG treasure tables, there is enough stuff there that does the same.

66. No Fog of War
This is basically a bullox complaint. Fog of War is for strategy games not for RPG's

67. Ability to keep one or more party members out of combat via Stealth
This is very good, however not good implementated. For stealth characters not in combat, time should go to round mode. This however has nothing to do with diference between BG and DoS. It a faulty design

68. No tracking of normal arrows
If I recall correctly this was also not in BG, but cant recall as it is more inventory management we do not need

69. Wallhack scouting via camera manipulation
yes this is bad, but again not BG vs DoS

70. Aimbotting AI (automatically knowing which party member has the ‘least’ in a defensive stat and focusing solely on them)
This is also not true, many times my frontliner got hit, also agro management is a thing.

71. No random encounters
yes this is anoying and has been part of larian games since Divine divinity.

72. Infinitely summonable Zombie companion
Wait what?

*edits below*
73. Access to enemy statistics by "Examining" them. (Note: DoS has this mechanic but locks some information behind spending points a particular skill, while BG did not have this at all).
anoying and should be part of a class feature (believe champion and bard have this)

74. Main theme music (credit to Endolex for demonstrating the audible difference a BG based theme would sound like -> https://soundcloud.com/endolex/baldurs-gate-iii-alternate-main-menu-arrangement)
zero f's are given. Music score is great. A bit more ambient sound would be nice, but music is good.



Overall this list has very view things that validate the claim that the game is DoS 3 instead of BG 3. Alot of things noted down are game mechanic specific and not related to DoS or DnD game rules. Alot of complaints about the DnD rules are faulty (especially the HP complaint and no standard monster).

The BG games are about the world and the adventures you do within this world (forgotten realms) and the lore of the realms is very good implementated. The game mechanics and implementation of the ruleset is for DnD 5e and not DnD 2e on which BG 1 was based. Anyone who complains that BG 1 is not BG 3 need to check the difference in the ruleset and understand that things work very differently. By choosing DnD 5e as ruleset this game will be different than BG 1. The implementation of 5e rules is done ok and the lore for BG and Forgoten Realms is done very good.

The list provided is a very bad list and hopefully this post will provide some counter balance to those who dont understand what is a forgoten realms based game centered arround Baldurs gate.
Posted By: virion Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 01/11/20 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by Shinshi
Original list with my input on the issues (no one I recon cares). For refence I am a DM in PnP and started with 2e AD&D and played all DnD games in computer since OG Eye of the Beholder



You're misunderstanding.

Considering the amount of time we spend writing those posts I think it answers the question of "caring".
As so I appreciate the time you spent answering but you missed the entire point. The original list is in fact pointless and doesn't prove or claims anything on it's own.
No one denies that OP included.

The list linked in my comment above was the point of taking this somewhere constructive. Right now you're replicating the issues on page 2+3+4 of this thread.
Posted By: Atama Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 01/11/20 05:11 PM
Thank you so much for compiling this list. Really looking forward to reading Gimme back BG. I really tried in Feedback forms to get the point about character portraits and a certain style and what BG2 did right across to Larian and hope human eyes will read them. I totally get what you are saying from the artistic point - reduction seems to be a key feature to really make the world more meaningful. It also means reducing flexibility in some places (as you pointed out items making certain spells kind of pointless)
Objective fact: There are barrels in Divinity 2 and BG 3.

Subjective: It feels like Divinity 3 because of that.

Also subjective: It feels like Shadow of the Tomb Raider 2 because of that.

Objective: There is food.

Subjective: It feels like Divinity 3 because of that.

Also subjective: It feels like TES 6, or FO 5. Maybe closer to TES, because sword and sorcery? If I'd come straight here from Skyrim, I'd be more inclined to argue that it feels like that game instead, or Oblivion.

So it's easy to say "we're arguing facts here", but we're really not. We're arguing how it feels. This isn't objective, it's subjective. There's a lot of back and forth here, both in this thread, and on the forums that bears that out. I still find it amusing that people that feel differently are shouted down, or ridiculed for not jumping on the bandwagon. "There are no wrong feelings, unless your feelings don't align with mine" seems to be the FotM, (Flavor of the Month). Sadly, both sides of this argument are valuable feedback. It shows that despite how vehemently one decides to push their feelings about something, others feel differently about it. Gaining that perspective is really important at this stage in development. Some things can, and will be adjusted between now and release. Other things, no matter how vehemently someone may decry it, will remain. I don't have a master list of these items, and neither will I pretend to have some foresight into what those items will be. I can, however, be fairly certain that this is the case. This isn't my first rodeo. I've been in Betas before, and I've been involved in the development of NWN modules, both by someone else, and by myself, and know what feedback is valuable, and which is "but it's not what I want". Now, that last can vary wildly, and context is king for determining that, but FO 3 was reasonably successful, NV arguably more so, and both are wildly different from FO 1 and 2.

So I'm not going to get my self all worked up over "But it's not the same", when in reality, I didn't come here looking for that. I came looking for a game that could make me feel the same things that the originals did, although some of that is going to be impossible; I won't be able to experience my "first time playing a cRPG" again, which is something I did feel with BG. I can, however, get the experience of a game that can have me looking up and realizing that it's sunrise, and I've been at my desk for 8 hours. I got that from the Infinity Engine games, and from more than a few other games, and if this game can deliver that experience with an FR feel, I'm down with that. Given the existance of MP out of the gate, I hope there's a toolset similar to NWN, because I know at least one person playing now that would be all over trying to recreate some NWN experiences with it. Because at the end of the day, "feeling like BG", the game, means just that, transporting me into the FR. I don't need the actual city, I don't need the original cast, and I don't want the original look, I want the experience. So far, the game hasn't done a bad job of that. It needs stuff, to be sure, but it's still in an Alpha state, as far as I can tell, which means there's plenty of time for adjustments to be made.
Posted By: Zefhyr Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 01/11/20 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Objective fact: There are barrels in Divinity 2 and BG 3.

Subjective: It feels like Divinity 3 because of that.

Also subjective: It feels like Shadow of the Tomb Raider 2 because of that.


What a baid faith.

More, the fact that barrels feels like Tomb Raider for you (even it's a fallacious argument here) it doesn't change anything.
The point is it doesn't feel like BG. So who cares if it feels more DoS or TR ? At the end, the fact is (and you confirm it) it doesn't feel BG which is a major issue for a game called "BG3".


More, it's being geniune or pretentious to think that "feelings" are subjectives, they are the results of all the experiences we had and all the efforts the creator put in their work.

Denying the importance of the creator and his will in the feelings his work gives is... impossible to understand for me. hypocrisis ? bad faith ? ingenuity ? absurd ?



Originally Posted by robertthebard
I came looking for a game that could make me feel the same things that the originals did

Since everything is "subjective" for you, you should cross your fingers cause, with your logic, Larian have no power on your feelings.
Posted By: Atama Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 01/11/20 06:00 PM
This concerns the "Gimme back BG" spreadsheet.

Generally I have the feeling that when reviewing points of the list, the point of view in the "comments" section of the sheet is that cold mechanics are all that make a game, not counting for choices in design and feeling. I don't think this holds up to reality in many points. Also it seems to me that the comment logic is often "can we bring it back to BG2?" where an obvious no colors something red, rather than discussing or refining thoughts.

Specifically,I don't get following points being red on the list:

18) I think this point is phrased in a way where the emphasis is on an item being from DoS, rather than not being true to D&D rules - the golden pantaloons in BG2 have nothing to do with it. The problem is the similarity to DoS more than any change from BG2. So it seems rather yellow to me.

19) This rather seems to adress a bug than a general game mechanic. The change would be: fix bugs. So green?

22) and 23) concerning UI design choices - why would that automatically color them red? All discussion off?

24) Talking about being constructive - the "need to point this out" is simply because it's there, needs change and used to be different. Also: maybe at least yellow?

25) The devil is in the details. This gives games a distinct feel, many small details in sum become game defining. At least yellow.

28) Why in the Nine Hells is this commented on as being "a separate topic"? Yellow. Is this not the list to define and nail down things big and small that made BG2 great or at least gave it a distinct feel?
In this case, preparing a spell meant you had to take a specific action in game, that passed time and was not always possible to be able to use some spell. Being able to do so without even a symbolic action could be better design, or it makes decision making lackluster. At any rate, this smells of Yellow.

32) Again, why is this not yellow? It reads as if "Well, BG2 was balanced poorly, so let's not even discuss this". Obviously the point was made because something felt better in BG2 than in BG3 now in terms of using or even abusing items. So why not
yellow?

I could go on and on, but I guess I should return to my general statement in the beginning:
The devil is in the details. Design and feeling are important, not only cold game mechanics - players interacting with mechanics make the full gaming experience. All abuse and cheese can not be exterminated - but there are such things as artistic cohesion. Cheesing with BARRELS feels more wrong than cheesing with mage spells in BG2. I know those things are very subjective, but then again, I think there is a way of discussing finer points without drifting of to discussions of taste.


EDIT: Also point 39 is about the mechanic in post Throne of Bhaal BG2 where pressing ALT would highlight items and containers rather than just giving us a little textbox without showing WHERE something is in BG3












Posted By: virion Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 03/11/20 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Objective fact: There are barrels in Divinity 2 and BG 3.

Subjective: It feels like Divinity 3 because of that.
Also subjective: It feels like Shadow of the Tomb Raider 2 because of that.

Objective: There is food.
Subjective: It feels like Divinity 3 because of that.

Also subjective: It feels like TES 6, or FO 5. Maybe closer to TES, because sword and sorcery? If I'd come straight here from Skyrim, I'd be more inclined to argue that it feels like that game instead, or Oblivion.

So it's easy to say "we're arguing facts here", but we're really not. We're arguing how it feels. This isn't objective, it's subjective. There's a lot of back and forth here, both in this thread, and on the forums that bears that out. I still find it amusing that people that feel differently are shouted down, or ridiculed for not jumping on the bandwagon. "There are no wrong feelings, unless your feelings don't align with mine" seems to be the FotM, (Flavor of the Month). Sadly, both sides of this argument are valuable feedback. [...]

So I'm not going to get my self all worked up over "But it's not the same", when in reality, I didn't come here looking for that. I came looking for a game that could make me feel the same things that the originals did, although some of that is going to be impossible; I won't be able to experience my "first time playing a cRPG" again, which is something I did feel with BG.


We really have a totally different approach to this.

Spoiler alert only cause my answer is long and .... maybe too detailed? I'm probably repeating myself a lot.

1st part of what I'm doing:
Objective : There are barrels in Divinity 2 and BG 3.
Objective : Different or same mechanic in BG2


2nd part I'm trying to achieve through this thread:
Objective: Does it impact the gameplay in BG3. How did this mechanic work before.
Subjective: Did it serve the gameplay better in BG2? If yes, how?

Most people need a reminder they are not unique. I don't. So no need to reference the rest of your comment in my opinion(no hard feelings).

You stopped half-way in what I'm trying to do. Most of the people did when reading the list listed in OP. Most of this 1st list is a summary of autism screeching from the deepest part of this forum. This thread is literally an attempt to translate whining into feedback that actually leads somewhere.


Why would you replace a feature that works better in BG3 with a feature from BG2? No reason to do that.

Why do this in case of a feature that doesn't change QoL or mechanics ? Only to tickle BG fans on their bellies. No other reason, but it could be a way. Is it necessary? Meh, depends on personal preferences.

DID ANY OF THOSE MECHANICS WORK BETTER: MAYBE.
Why , how, which one, how did it impact the gameplay, how could it impact the game negatively, how could it improve it. Welll those are the things we can talk about. And MAYBE, just MAYBE it will turn out the main things that defined BG2 could be summed up in a bunch of feature. Features that are for now solved in the same way as DOS2 for ( MAYBE ) no good reason.

Maybe is the key word because there's no fucking way I'm organizing play-tests of BG2 just to prove anything lol


if you feel "BG3 is DOS3 " is the wrong question turn it around man.
What feature makes BG3 a sequel of BG2?
- story +setting
- D&D mechanics [with minor/major changes. There's separates feedback for every single one of them]
- Characters ..... [no spoiles, i just checked data mining thread :P ]

It has everything, right? Well... details matter. Hence why we have list listing as many features as Isaac found. And I'm trying to make the " What feature of BG2 we want in BG3" thread. That's pretty much it.

I think there's nothing unhealthy about that approach.



Posted By: virion Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 03/11/20 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by Atama
This concerns the "Gimme back BG" spreadsheet.

Generally I have the feeling that when reviewing points of the list, the point of view in the "comments" section of the sheet is that cold mechanics are all that make a game, not counting for choices in design and feeling. I don't think this holds up to reality in many points. Also it seems to me that the comment logic is often "can we bring it back to BG2?" where an obvious no colors something red, rather than discussing or refining thoughts.

Specifically,I don't get following points being red on the list:

18) I think this point is phrased in a way where the emphasis is on an item being from DoS, rather than not being true to D&D rules - the golden pantaloons in BG2 have nothing to do with it. The problem is the similarity to DoS more than any change from BG2. So it seems rather yellow to me.

Both games introduced new items. Arguably every point in this list arose as an issue of similarity to DOS2 and the game not having it's own identity than anything else. Is asking to not introduce new items from other lore a thing to do if BG creators introduced they own and not many people had issues with it? Yes, they also had a backdash from D&D fans back then for this as far as i heard ^^ 20 years and people didn't change.


19) This rather seems to adress a bug than a general game mechanic. The change would be: fix bugs. So green?

Red cause while being an issue to address nothing to reference in BG2 here.


22) and 23) concerning UI design choices - why would that automatically color them red? All discussion off?


Not really, I just couldn't think of a single feature from BG2 UI that was arguably better more than just " different".
Reinstalled BG2 and playing again through I figured out spells list didn't become overwhelmed with usable items. That alone was a way clearer way to organize them after me. Switched it to yellow.

From the esthetical point of view though it would be equivalent to " bring it back to bg 2" for the sake of doing it. I really want to stay away from that approach. It would be the most obvious way to pat BG fans on the back but is there more to it? Personally, I didn't see it.


24) Talking about being constructive - the "need to point this out" is simply because it's there, needs change and used to be different. Also: maybe at least yellow?

Changed to yellow. No need to point it out came from the assumption it's linked to EA. Adjusted the comment to reflect it.

25) The devil is in the details. This gives games a distinct feel, many small details in sum become game defining. At least yellow.

Changed the color. Difficult one cause this one impacts only the estethic of the games while not affecting the gameplay that much in pure theory. It's a good example when it comes to illustrating the issue around discussing game features.

28) Why in the Nine Hells is this commented on as being "a separate topic"? Yellow. Is this not the list to define and nail down things big and small that made BG2 great or at least gave it a distinct feel?
In this case, preparing a spell meant you had to take a specific action in game, that passed time and was not always possible to be able to use some spell. Being able to do so without even a symbolic action could be better design, or it makes decision making lackluster. At any rate, this smells of Yellow.

Considering resting is "spammable" in both games right now OR AT LEAST looks to be story wise the fact you can change spells without resting seemed to me like a QoL improvement more than a major mechanic change. Switching to yellow based on your comment. It's true that in BG2 you had very limited cases where you had to hurry (quest based time limit) or very long fights where you couldn't switch spells or rest.

32) Again, why is this not yellow? It reads as if "Well, BG2 was balanced poorly, so let's not even discuss this". Obviously the point was made because something felt better in BG2 than in BG3 now in terms of using or even abusing items. So why not
yellow?

I wouldn't go in this directions mostly because item power is based on the enemies we face. Which are based on the D&D 5th edition instead of the 2nd. I pointed out here some items were also overpowered as an issue in BG2 more as a side note. Balancing of item power vs enemies seems an obvious step and BG2 doesn't have a clear way of approaching this subject.







I could go on and on, but I guess I should return to my general statement in the beginning:
The devil is in the details. Design and feeling are important, not only cold game mechanics - players interacting with mechanics make the full gaming experience. All abuse and cheese can not be exterminated - but there are such things as artistic cohesion. Cheesing with BARRELS feels more wrong than cheesing with mage spells in BG2. I know those things are very subjective, but then again, I think there is a way of discussing finer points without drifting of to discussions of taste.


I agree there are ways of doing so but if you go through DOS vs BG3 topics or even the earlier pages of this one you will end up with something insane. BG fans who are at least 20 years old and most of the times 30+ are not able to talk to each other. Some ....some of the bg fans are dead by now too ^^''' Maybe the drastic difference in demography causes this problem in discussion. Maybe it's a normal problem on forums . But getting as close to cold mechanics as I could seemed the way to go to even start a discussion about this subject without getting lost in BS.

EDIT: Also point 39 is about the mechanic in post Throne of Bhaal BG2 where pressing ALT would highlight items and containers rather than just giving us a little textbox without showing WHERE something is in BG3

Thx for that one













[VIRION EDIT: MY ANSWERS ARE ABOVE UNDER EACH POINT]

Thank you for your comments so far mate, I appreciate it .
Posted By: Zefhyr Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 03/11/20 09:22 PM
Virion,
I read your list some days ago.
There was one point, from memory, I didn't completely agree. It was about the items.
It's true, there is basics items on BG1 and 2 like swords and armor but this is far from what Larian does.
Indeed there is no spoons, dolls, flutes, plates, etc.
And I think it's an interesting poitn because it really shows the difference beetwen BG and DoS.
Th best item to show this difference his the... "broken lute".
Typically it's a completely, absolutely useless item but it's funny. It matchs with the intention of DoS which is to create a funny and colorfull world.
You doesn't have it in BG. You have basics swords to drop on your ennemies and it makes sens, it can be usefull (well, especially in the one at the beginning when the items just... get mega rusty.) and at no time it's funny.

So speaking about what participate to give a DoS feels instead of a BG one, I think the items have a part more important than we could imagine at first.
All this funny and completely useless stuffs you can find in BG3 absolutely didn't match with the original BG.

So, I'm not saying it should be removed but I would like to point out and for the people to acknowledge it is a factor which can participate to give the DoS 3 feelings.

Isn't it ?
Posted By: virion Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 03/11/20 09:35 PM
@Zefhyr : I modified the list adding the notion of many items with no usage cluttering the inventory.

When it comes to "funny items". I don't know man, Minsc had a giant space hamster in his pocket. Edwin and his gender changing scroll was a thing too. In BG ( from memory) they used to be more linked to characters. Golden pantalons excluded.

Also while a list of items that makes BG3 DOS3 instead is a starting point I think what we want from BG2 to make BG3 is rather the way to take it.
In that context....less items? Less jokes? I guess that could be considered a factor but I think that's us getting old :p
As I said on the first page, I think that OP did a great job with this list and you're doing a great job with the google doc.

What I don't really understand is your goal.

=> If the goal of the thread is only to point out differences between BG1/2 and BG3, I'm not really interrested even if it's it's "interresting".
=> If the goal is to create a list of realistic suggestion that could both increase BG3's experience AND the feeling of a Baldur's Gate video game, I'm totally interrested.

So what is it about ?

Originally Posted by Zefhyr
Virion,
I read your list some days ago.
There was one point, from memory, I didn't completely agree. It was about the items.
It's true, there is basics items on BG1 and 2 like swords and armor but this is far from what Larian does.
Indeed there is no spoons, dolls, flutes, plates, etc.
And I think it's an interesting poitn because it really shows the difference beetwen BG and DoS.
Th best item to show this difference his the... "broken lute".
Typically it's a completely, absolutely useless item but it's funny. It matchs with the intention of DoS which is to create a funny and colorfull world.
You doesn't have it in BG. You have basics swords to drop on your ennemies and it makes sens, it can be usefull (well, especially in the one at the beginning when the items just... get mega rusty.) and at no time it's funny.

So speaking about what participate to give a DoS feels instead of a BG one, I think the items have a part more important than we could imagine at first.
All this funny and completely useless stuffs you can find in BG3 absolutely didn't match with the original BG.

So, I'm not saying it should be removed but I would like to point out and for the people to acknowledge it is a factor which can participate to give the DoS 3 feelings.

Isn't it ?


I totally agree with this.
The feeling of DoS but also, and it's way more important to me : it's just totally boring.

When you loot on BG1/2, there are "many useless stuff" but you can process the information quickly. You know what to do and you know what could be important.
In DoS and that's exaclty the same in BG3, you have to carry everything because... maybe it will be usefull... a quest... crafting..... no ? Meh, ok I'll deal with it later...

This + the 60 types of foods + the fork, bones, skulls, plates, cup, bowl, dolls,...
The item management is unecessarily complicated and boring. I really don't understand what Larian's trying to do with this.
Posted By: virion Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 03/11/20 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus



=> If the goal is to create a list of realistic suggestion that could both increase BG3's experience AND the feeling of a Baldur's Gate video game, I'm totally interrested.



This. The list of similarities are a starting point. Otherwise, we might as well discuss every single gameplay aspect and it would turn out every single one of us has their own idea.

So yeah, BG3 in the context of BG2 kind of thing.
Ok thanks for the answer.
So I'll watch your job and share my ideas when your list is going to be done.
Posted By: Zahur Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 03/11/20 10:45 PM
If there will be list of suggestions how to increase Baldur's Gate feeling I can certainly contribute. Funny sidenote: So far I feel BG2 spirit in BG3 only when I revive Minotaur and let him throw his 2d12 greatclub. This really reminds me the bug when you were able to steal Ring of Gaxx from Demilich, kill him and loot him for another one.
Posted By: Svalr Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 03/11/20 11:20 PM
Is it just me, or does some of the surfaces feel very unpredictable and inconsistent?
The surface created by Fire Bolt is a good example of this, it feels like enemies are totally unaffected by the surface it creates.
I really wish Vometia or The composer pin this thread. Lots of interesting points.
Im currently playing BG 1 and there are a LOT of empty things or filled with not very useful things.

But overall a very good list
Posted By: virion Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 04/11/20 03:11 PM
Based on the issues this thread encountered , our conclusions and the last few pots stating they are interested in the discussion when the list will be ready( when it already is lol) i have setup a new thread for clarity. I like the direction it went when saying the things in the right way so see you there . smile

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=727629
Posted By: Pah Re: Master List of why BG 3 feels like DoS 3 - 04/11/20 06:15 PM
Originally Posted by Nicottia
A good list OP, even if a lot of people seem to disagree.

I would, personally add another point:

DOS2 act 1 ends on a boat ride out of Fort Joy, BG3 EA also ends on a small boat ride to the Moonrise Towers. Currently we have no other ways to get to MT other than that raft in the Underdark, but obviously that is a subject to change once Larian opens up the other 2 paths to MT - the mountain pass and the forest path.

And as to all these feeling conversations going on.
1. Does BG3 feel like a D&D game set in the Forgotten Realms? Sure.

2. Does it feel like a Baldur's Gate game? Currently? Not really.

3. Does BG3 feel like a DOS game? Yep.

To explain myself:

1. It does have the lore clearly, references to things that had happened in the FR. Faerunian gods are more or less present. The races, the xenophobia of the drow. It's all there. The monsters. This list could go on forever. But yes, it does have the feeling of a D&D game. So Larian doesn't really need to do much more than polish the stuff we currently have, fix those low lvl 'archdruids' and 'red dragons' clearly. Fix the HP bloating, and the game will be in a really good state D&D wise.

2. Aside from the shared title and the promise of visiting the city in the future? Ehh... that's the thing.

In BG1 you start off doing mundane tasks for the people in your life - you can help Firebeard get his identify scroll back (or you can be a dick and keep it), you can get an antidote for Dreppin's cow, help a guard get his sword (without alerting his superior that he's got a hangover and forgot it - or you can be a massive douchebag and spill the guard's secret to his superior). There are those assassins of course who want your head, rats in a cellar. All of this servers as the perfect tutorial - on movement, on combat, quest rewards, quest experience and all that juicy stuff. It's all introduced to the player gradually, you get a feeling of home (more or less) from the tutorial zone at Candlekeep, you get some worrisome rumors about iron shortage, but you don't really feel them as of yet. You also meet the closest person you have to a sister - Imoen. Then, you follow your father figure out of the 'gilded fortress' and you lose him, are introduced to your nemesis as well, and with no way of going back to Candlekeep you set out to figure out what's going on (as a lead you can choose to loot Gorion's body and get his letter from Elminster, the one pointing you towards Khaleed and Jaheira). From that point, you are free to do as you choose.

BG2, sure, you start off as a prisoner, you meet your captor and nemesis in the first minute of the game. Then you grasp an opportunity when Imoen (closest thing to a sister eh? wink ) frees herself and gets an opportunity to free you. Again, you can free Minsc and Jaheira that are locked in the same room as you, or you can be a douche and leave them in their cages. And just like Candlekeep of BG1, Irenicus' prison serves 2 purposes - a tutorial zone (for people who skipped BG1 perhaps) and to introduce you to Irenicus (via journals, his experiments, Ellesime's room + clones), to give you a reason to hate him, a singular purpose that would drive you forward. And while, you start off at lvl 9+ in BG2, the monsters you meet aren't too outlandish for your lvl.

Conclusion being - both BG games have a similar starting zones, BG1 you are just a newbie trying to understand what's happening and why, it grounds you, gives you a reason to care about your foster father's imminent death, and introduces Sarevok perfectly and gives you a good reason to seek justice/vengeance/revenge for what Sarevok has done. Same goes for BG2, but you have a more personal reason to hate Irenicus, after all, he experimented on YOU and your friends got caught in the crossfire.

BG3 you start off abducted with a mind flayer tadpole in your head, aboard nautiloid, luckily freed from the holding pods by the confusion and damage caused by the dragon riders, we are free to explore, there are a lot of dead mind flayers scattered around, there are a lot of intellect devourers running around and on top of that the mind flayers decided it was a good idea to plane jump into Avernus, of all things, we don't know why they chose the hells and not some other plane but fine, the githyanki dragon riders are not easily lost, even in the goddamn hells, sure, we get to fight low lvl imps while in Avernus, we encounter a mind flayer dueling some devils, we get ordered to use the transponder we get to the helm and plane jump back to the prime material plane and we conveniently crash land on a beach, we somehow survive the fall from the ship, caaaaaaause magic tadpole I guess? But is not all, still at lvl 1, we get to explore a bit of the beach and fight off goddamn intellect devourers?

WHOEVER THOUGHT IT WAS A GOOD IDEA TO START THE GAME LIKE THAT? DOESN'T IT ALL SOUND HELLA CONTRIVED TO ANYONE WHO HAS ANY IDEA WHAT IS GOING ON? FOR BEING A DAMN TUTORIAL ZONE NO LESS?

Doesn't it at all sound like one of these 'chosen one' stories? No? And from the get go no less. Sure, Gorion's ward was a chosen one, but (s)he had no idea at the very beginning of the journey.

Watching dragon riders, fire explosions, the mindflayer duel with a devil - it's all a pretty flashy spectacle, if highly inappropriate for a start of a lvl 1 newbie campaign. Also, in contrary to previous BG games, we don't have a clear nemesis. Not a single figurehead to hate, sure, we can hate githyanki, can hate the devils and demons of Avernus, can hate the mind flayers. Mind you we don't even hear of 'the Absolute' until later in the act. There is nobody like Sarevok or Irenicus to absolutely despise for what they've done.

Sorry for this long post, but it's the reason why, for me personally, BG3 doesn't really have that BG feeling. Starting zone alone looks like a (bad) DMs wet dream. Also, the PC of BG3 shouldn't even be alive, but fine, magic tadpole.

3. I think that OP has captured the feeling of DOS in BG3 better, so. wink

I agree there, and for me this come from the story being written around Larian's playable NPC and not around a character you create. This was an issue for me in Dos2 but it was Larian's franchise, so they do it the way they want, but here in BG3 it is disappointing and contribute greatly to Dos3 feeling.
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