Larian Studios
After having a few discussions about her and the whole probably "kind of like a god-child" or something theorys and the like...
... and Shadowheart always popping up again as a theme of discussion in circles I am a part of, I feel the need to get this off my chest.


She is not hot stuff. She only looks hot. But she is not hot stuff.
Shadowheart represents the modern day Woman.
Wannabe strong & independend Woman, which never truly takes an active role in anything, but is also never happy with the results of anything.

My final observation leading to this: Her mildly disgusted reaction at the corpses of the Tieflings, if you help the Gobs take the Groove.

So she had no problems to raid the Groove with them (and us).
No problems to kill whoever was there and had no problem with her.
Also probably thinks it is always better to side with whoever looks like the winning-team.

But when she is surrounded by the consequences of her actions then she can pout, huh? grin
She also says how the Tieflings don't matter to her but its wierd how "we safed them anyway" if you chose to help them.


Edgelord/Edgelady, yeah she kinda is one as well.
But ultimately she is just a smartass and complainer.
Never happy with anything and god does she let us know that.

Being never satisfied with anything does not give someone character depth. And I could give a sh°t about her Shar-Cleric Amnesia. She signed up for this. So this is no excuse for anything.
Hell yeah I too would be paranoid and barky like an abused kick dog, if parts of MYSELF would be denied to me in general.

Man she is such a softcore Karen, I wonder why she did not ask for the Manager every 15 minutes? ^_^
Posted By: Verte Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 04:59 PM
Shadowheart disapproves
Laezel approves
Astarion doesn't give a fuck about
Wyll pets doggo
Gale sniffs magic from an artifact plate
Posted By: Balls Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 05:24 PM
It's pretty hilarious believing that the women of today are evil, Shar worshippers who never get along with you.

Doesn't this say more about you, than the game's characters?

I think Larian is doing a great job with the way each character is distinct, different and memorable. So many games have such forgettable NPC's, and in BG III, there is a truly a diverse and interesting cast, down to even individual goblins have distinct characteristics that make them stand out from the horde.

In my opinion, it's one of the game's strongest features.

Larian has purposefully given us these "problem" companions to deal with to make the game more complex and add depth to the experience. The majority of the current companions appear to be evil in some way. I expect more "good" character companions will be available later. (I think they have mentioned this).

So, there will no doubt be easier to deal with companions for those who wish for more agreeable, malleable, cheerleader kinds of support a bit later on.
*SNAP* Yep. This one's going in my cringe compilation.
Posted By: Abits Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
*SNAP* Yep. This one's going in my cringe compilation.

+1
Originally Posted by JustAnotherBaldu
So she had no problems to raid the Groove with them (and us).

This is what i liked about Dragon Age: Origins ...
There are some moments, where you can choose option that goes completely against some character moral codex, and they will turn on you. :3
I recall two situations ...
First when you choose to desecrate urn with sacred ashes ... Leiliana will turn on you.
Second when you choose to purge mage tower ... Wynne will turn on you.

Its so much better when companions are actualy willing to stand up for their values, and try to persuate you to reconcider, eventualy try to stop you ... than when they simply stand back there and silently disagree. -_-

Also it give better value to those options. :3
Posted By: zeel Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 06:04 PM
Some of the threads here have been beyond parody lately.
You know you can just not recruit her if you dislike her (or women in general?) this much, right?
Posted By: Tzelanit Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 06:17 PM
I've kinda missed these posts. There were so many of them in the first week or two after EA dropped.

Women don't need to be flowery and agreeable so that you can maintain your perception of them as waifish and frail princesses who would ever be so grateful if you would save them from themselves.
Being narrow and principled doesn't make someone a bitch, it makes them narrowed and principled.
I'm not a fan of Shadowheart, but your complaints are coming from a place of fragile masculinity.

I'm sure that there'll be some lawful good naive innocent girl who is hopelessly devoted to you and is all gumdrops and butterflies 24/7.
Unfortunately, Shadowheart likely isn't going to be someone that you can mold to your expectations.
If you don't like her, don't recruit her.
Posted By: Nyanko Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 06:18 PM
I love her voice. The sexiest in the game after Amelia Tyler's in my opinion.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 06:22 PM
Okay guys.

Pre-emptive note here from your friendly and watchful Mod team. This thread is going to be watched carefully because I feel it has the potential to become explosive. Prove me wrong and keep it civil please.
Posted By: FelLich Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 07:04 PM
Seems like the right thread for this.

For me personally, none of the companions actually stand out or I suppose interest me heavily Shadowheart is probably, currently, the most interesting one despite all those RNG rolls. Plenty of characters have been fun and/or interesting but the companions, currently, are just tools to get things done. Aka I need Lae'zel for tanking, Shadowheart for healing and Astarion as a rogue. Astarion comes across as aristocracy, up turned nose and all, but all his approval come from being a complete psychopath and his disapproval comes from anything remotely good or competent, which goes against most of the dialogue I've gotten from him. Lae'zel is a fanatical soldier with a supremacy bent, which isn't bad for a character but she's not exactly someone you should trust or even expect to partner up with were it not for the tadpole club. Lets be honest in any other scenario Lae'zel would cut your inferior head off and go home, except if you were a fellow Githyanki supremist. Gale's the guy who couldn't get over being Zeus'd so he went ahead and turned himself into a walking bomb. I mean his general character, attitude, isn't bad he comes across as a level headed guy, outside his colossal fuck up. Wyll strikes me as that delusional hero wannabe who does a dumb to do a good and naturally regrets it. Shadowheart is, to me, the more interesting character. It seems fairly obvious that she was kidnapped and brainwashed to worship Shar, so the story behind that could be interesting. Learning about Shar it makes sense that she'd have to kidnap and brainwash people, she's one of those gods that sane and/or competent people do not worship. Hell, you'd be better off worshiping Bhaal, the god of murder; or Lolth, the goddess of narcissism, she keeps the Drow weak and lesser for her own amusement.

A lot of this stuff could certainly change at the full release from getting a complete story. However, the lack of input from them during the general playthrough does hurt their appeal since you end up only getting these random "Gale Approves" or " Astarion Disapproves" while talking. A majority of their big talks come from going back to camp which can be pretty rare depending on your playstyle. If that doesn't change in the full game than it's going to be a problem. I will also add that, much like some other RPGs, making all the characters pansexual is a bit annoying, talking to Astarion during, my first playthrough, the party and having him go for the "Lets fuck" was off putting, do not like, as I don't swing that way. I think Gale as had that line of talk which pretty much made me write off talking to them. As for the OP, eh, it's an opinion, and this is my mini rant.
Posted By: Soul-Scar Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 07:34 PM
@OP

Yes mate I think my discription was "a terminally depressed emo chick going though the change having lost her HRT". Someone this verbally comabative, socially negative and whiney would end up on the menu after a short period.
Ew. Gross.
Originally Posted by Balls

Doesn't this say more about you, than the game's characters?

You gulped that bait down all the way. wink

But I must say this sounds like you are triggered cause you feel very close to Shadowheart.
Always analyzing. Always smartassing?
Dont even open that can.

I just closed it.

Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
*SNAP* Yep. This one's going in my cringe compilation.

Hahahahahaha.
Glad I could help. ^^





But whatever the Community says about this topic here, or Shadowheart in general.

If we do not see even one optimistic, kinda "heroic" or somehow goodwilling female companion in the future, like this ex-winged Elf character in BaldursGate2 for example, then Women in fantasy games truly have suffered a major blow.
This Elf-chick in DOS2 was very similar to Shadowheart too. And she too was driven by a dark, emo Edgelady backgroundstory.
Can't female characters please become "normal" again?

They are totally Feminist material. ;-)
Motivated by nothing but negativity.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 07:53 PM
Shadowheart is the companion with the biggest mystery, which imo adds a lot to her interestingness as a companion.
-Astarion we immediately know is a vampire. He tells us his life story fairly easily.
-Lae'zel also just tells us her story/goals. The biggest mysteries involving her is the Gith artefact and if there actually is a purification process, which tbf aren't her mysteries. Oh, and I suppose it's unclear whether she might be an actual gith princess or she might just have an overinflated sense of importance, but the game doesn't really emphasize this (I'm mostly certain it's the latter).
-Gale might or might not be telling the truth about his history, but there's no mystery to solve. Just a task to complete.
-Wyll's lover is the biggest mystery involving him, but even that is a kind of straightforward task. Find girl. Rescue girl.

SH requires a lot of work to learn her story, and even then there is this mysterious artefact and her unknown past.
@mrfuji3

If you bring up the Mystery factor you already bring up Shadowhearts best part about her. And that is all she is for now, since its only EarlyAccess.

But when you see any kind of Forum-roleplay or D&D roleplay with friends and such at a table, isn't there always this one character?
The ultra super mysterious guy/gurl I mean.
Is Shadowheart really "new"?
Since its an actual videogame I think the danger of her being a Mary Sue is fairly low at least. grin

One thing is for certain.
She better be worth all of her sass. ^^
I disagree with your reasons op, but I think its perfectly fine to dislike companions and I would say that the fact that some of us really like certain companions who others really dislike is actually a sign of decent characterisation (even with hackneyed tropes present) that evokes a strong emotional reaction. or something like that. I like all the companions in their own way, but that doesn't stop me thinking that some of them are actual grade A morons (wyll and gale im looking at you)
Posted By: Albannach Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 08:15 PM
My problem with Shadowheart and Lae'zel is the apparent assumption on the part of Larian writers that in order to be strong a woman must be unpleasant and constantly shout. I wouldn't mind one of the female companions being like that, but why both? This IS a hackneyed trope.

I find her so unpleasant and annoying, I don't care about her 'mysterious past'. I kill her and that takes care of that. I generally killed Sebille in DOS2 because anyone who wants to murder you for merely looking at them probably needs to be put out of their misery.

ETA: By the way, the OP knows damn-all about feminism, but it is not my goal in life to educate him or open his closed mind. Nevertheless, I do agree that a female companion at least close to the range of sane would be nice.
Posted By: Verte Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 08:26 PM
I could imagine a priestess of Shar whose politeness cause mass puke and a githyanki warrior who enjoys courteous conversations. Both pay attention to conventions and try to fit into the male worldview of a good girl.

Larian please make both old and ugly so no one will care
Posted By: Albannach Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 08:33 PM
Or the human view of not deliberately pissing off everyone you happen to interact with.

Isn't it interesting that neither Gale, Wyll nor Astarian have to be constantly offensive, just the female characters to avoid being called a 'good girl'.
Posted By: Ellenhard Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 08:45 PM
You could just say who would you like to see as a companion, Aerie-style for example, instead of baiting with generalizing modern Woman image. And there is only one chance to make a first impression.

I do not like Shadowheart either, by the way. That's a character with a decent comeliness (AD&D 1st edition used that stat), but an average-low charisma. Well done, Larian, believable character, too bad she is taking a companion slot. Although why not, if there will be companions for everyone's taste.
Originally Posted by Albannach

I find her so unpleasant and annoying, I don't care about her 'mysterious past'. I kill her and that takes care of that.
I generally killed Sebille in DOS2 because anyone who wants to murder you for merely looking at them probably needs to be put out of their misery.

HAHahahahahaha!
Can we bro-fist on that?
Sybille yeah that was her name.
Killed her too once just for that stunt.
But I reloaded afterwards cause I was still too curious to see what her Edgelording was all about. ^_^
And because I wanted a Rogue in my party.

Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
I like all the companions in their own way, but that doesn't stop me thinking that some of them are actual grade A morons (wyll and gale im looking at you)

What? Why them? Those are the most "sane" people there!! ^_^

Wyll is the literal Hero archetype and he shares my great hate for Goblins. =)
Gale is not that much of a Hero, but he too enjoys doing good stuff.
How are they moronic? laugh


Originally Posted by Verte
Both pay attention to conventions and try to fit into the male worldview of a good girl.


Its not a worldview to behave logically and normal though.
In your defense I do not know much about Shar-Clerics and from what I found out ingame, Shar is a Goddess I would never consider to worship.
Shar is a Deity of Secrets though. Which also means of manipulation.
Which means: Of decieving others.

Shadowheart could therefore play the part of a very benevolent person! Maybe even try to be heroic and cheerful, or optimistic?
You know - the clever path of being a nasty, manipulative t... otally smart, evil Cleric. =)
But she isn't.

I totally expect that at some point LarianStudio's will find a suuuuuuper believable reason for all of her character. If we recieve enough flashback material about her that is.
So that all will be forgiven and I feel so bad that I had such an unimpressed and annoyed opinion of her in the past.
I will be redeemed...
... in simping service to this high Lady (LOL)...
... and kiss her feet like the lowly male that I am. (snort)

Since this seems to be societys worldview of a good boy that is!
" She is a Wamen! All Wamen are Queeeeeeeens! "

xD
Originally Posted by JustAnotherBaldu

Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
I like all the companions in their own way, but that doesn't stop me thinking that some of them are actual grade A morons (wyll and gale im looking at you)

What? Why them? Those are the most "sane" people there!! ^_^

Wyll is the literal Hero archetype and he shares my great hate for Goblins. =)
Gale is not that much of a Hero, but he too enjoys doing good stuff.
How are they moronic? laugh

Wyll was seduced into selling his soul by a sexy cambion lady who promised him power. Gale implanted himself with a nuclear bomb because he was horny for a goddess.
Posted By: Verte Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 09:05 PM
From datamining we know that SH was
tortured

Her memory is wiped. She has reasons to not play pleasant. She's simply pragmatic beside that. I see real people more whiny than her here. Just simply kill her and go further.
Posted By: Piff Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 09:24 PM
I don't like her either, but i somehow didn't feel the need to make an entire thread about it.

I'm not a huge fan of any of the current companions, we seem to have been lumped in with the rejects, failures, and edgy little gremlins that no one else will take.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by Atlus
The biggest issue with Shadowheart is that it is very easy to mess up the pacing of her personal story. The first time I played the game, I assumed that the tadpole was a real threat and that I needed to try and make some hard decisions about when to rest. This had the result of making Shadowheart come off as a aggressively fearful person which, understandably for the player character, makes it hard for you to act warmly towards her. In your mind, as the player, you've survived 4 days worth of battles but Shadhowheart will only see it as "day one" mechanically. Of course no one would trust you on day one. In this sense, I think the gameplay can unchain her personal story in a bad way.

The second time around, I took a long rest after every two or so battles and it completely changed her character. She went from someone who would effectively say: "Go fuck yourself" every time I would ask a question about our current predicament (Note: I play in Spanish and the translations change somewhat frequently so have that in mind) to someone who is genuinely afraid of the tadpole but, also, genuinely afraid about what's going to happen to her when she has to continue her mission. On my second playthrough, she seemed more tortured than defensive. Rightfully scared. To truly get this understanding of her character, I had to ignore what the game told me about resting which I think is a problem (A good quote I read on reddit about this situation: "You can lie to the character but don't like to the player" which I think fits in this specific scenario (although, I admit that I believe unreliable narration has its points at times.)

Overall, I went from disliking Shadowheart (& Astarion) the most to actually liking them the most. For the most part, I have fear that all of these characters will fall along the generic Anti-Hero turned hero, fantasy vibe that seems to be spouting up everywhere but Shadowheart & Astarion do seem to show actual weight and understanding of their actions when their facades break. I think it'll be interesting to examine these characters further when we have more information.

+1 I did the same thing
Except for what you said about Astarion. I can't get over his sneering tone every time I greet him.
Posted By: LoneSky Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 10:59 PM
We can't say anything definitive about Shadowheart based on early access. Liking her or not, that's up to each of us.

So this is just my opinion about Shadowheart; I was in a similar situation in another game, Dragon Age, with Morrigan. But still I assumed the risk, and gave her a chance, because I felt she needed my help more than anyone in the party. She changed a lot, and I loved how that affected the story, up to DA Inquisition and will continue beyond that.

Shadowheart could end differently, we can't know yet. Worth trying.
So far she is an interesting character. Could be a fun journey discovering her story. Maybe. Who knows...
Originally Posted by Atlus

I wish if you were playing a mage character, the narrator would give you a understanding of how horrific what Karsus
did to the weave was and the fact that Gale even attempted it should definitely make you think “This dude has no moral boundaries and definitely has threatened more innocent lives than any of your evil companions.” Kinda like a power for a price situation with the cost being unnatural obsession.

I like the juxtaposition between his "good face" and "polite manner" and the fact that he has the ambitions, drive and morals of a neutral evil character. Killing a single goblin in cold blood: nope, pointless, vindictive even; causing the deaths of thousands upon thousands to become a the most powerful wizard ever: yep, every time, no hesitation

but after all that he ends up bumped back down to lvl 1 with a flayer-parasite in his head. can you say owned?
The alignment system is so crude but I would say:

Astarion: Neutral Evil (Chaotic leaning)
Lae'zel: Neutral Evil (Lawful leaning)
Shadowheart: Neutral (Lawful leaning)
Wyll: Chaotic Neutral (Good leaning)
Gale: Neutral Evil but also very good at hiding it.
Posted By: Soul-Scar Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 11:34 PM
Wyll pisses me off to no end with the unwarranted arrogance and clear bullshit facade. Turns out he is an Incel to some winged skank dragging him about like some horny puppy missing his masters leg. Sort your own life out mate ain't got no time for your puppydog crap. Mmm be good if you could turn him into a soul coin to buy the services of his cambion though.

I kind of get Lae'zel, reminds me of being in the army. That is of course before you realise everything taught to you is a steaming pile of indoctrination. Going to be interesting when she finds out her entire world view is a load of bollocks to make her a more compliant minion.

Gale is okay, he banged a god... most dudes would have just put that down to experience and used it to bro-down in the pub. However he ruined that when he did some dumb shit to get her back. I could relate if I was 14, Ill jump off that bridge baby!!! type of thing. Dumbarse.

Astarion is walking melodrama with a side order of complete dickhead. I could probably drink enough Jack Daniels to find him girly enough to sleep with but honesly Mr Jack could convince most people to join the menage a troi with the ogre and bugbear in the barn. In short I smashed his head in every playthough so far (350hrs).

I agree Shadowheart comes across as "strong female character" without the Marysue. I mean if you are trying to hide your nature I would imagine acting altrusitic would be a better guise no? Apparently being perpetually on the rag and tearing the balls off anyone asks you a question is the way forward (ladyballs too). I would have thought a clerics diety would be pretty obvious and a common talking point to people who meet them? If you say "hey who do you pray to then Shadowheart" and she replies "A nice little god called nonyafucking business now fuck off and die" some people may think "hey maybe this bird has something to hide"?

Don't get me wrong as far as NPC's are concerned they are oscar winning if you compare it to "Mass Effect my face is tired" on release. Lots of other NPC's are really good. Wouldn't mind recruiting that Tiefling Bard that sings, not all companions need a bloody tadpole.
Posted By: Svalr Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 11:47 PM
I like her, but I feel like her disapproval and approval is way too inconsistent, probably the worst out of any character.

If you don't like her you can always just kill her instead of taking her along.

Originally Posted by Soul-Scar
If you say "hey who do you pray to then Shadowheart" and she replies "A nice little god called nonyafucking business now fuck off and die" some people may think "hey maybe this bird has something to hide"?


She only does that if you pry, and quite frankly I hate people who pry too and people who think that they're entitled to inject themselves into the personal lives and affairs of others.
Entire industries revolve around it, look no further than gossip magazines and gossip in general surrounding celebrities. But people in general do it and I hate it with a passion.
Her response is perfectly natural for someone in her position imo, if she doesn't want to tell you and tells you that she doesn't and you keep going she's in the right for getting mad.
Posted By: FelLich Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by Verte
I could imagine a priestess of Shar whose politeness cause mass puke and a githyanki warrior who enjoys courteous conversations. Both pay attention to conventions and try to fit into the male worldview of a good girl.

Larian please make both old and ugly so no one will care


I mean, why is Halsin popular? It isn't because he's good leader or has performed heroic deeds. dude's jacked, that's all. The superficial will always matter, whether in life or video games. Reality is that your companions are very much a group of people that would not associate with each other unless under extreme circumstances, tadpole in their brains. The only ones that, I believe, would willing group up outside of an extreme situation are Gale and Wyll, and even then Gale is doubtful. Also Astarion is a Toreador mixed with Ventrue, so it's not surprising people find him popular.
Posted By: Xeneize Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 11:50 PM
Other than the game literally screaming that it wants you to romance her, I have no issues with Shadowheart.
Posted By: FelLich Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 11:51 PM
The game screams at you to romance all of them...
Posted By: Svalr Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by Xeneize
Other than the game literally screaming that it wants you to romance her, I have no issues with Shadowheart.



I felt quite the opposite, you have to try harder with her to get on her good side.
Gale was the one who I felt the game was nudging me in the direction of constantly and I wasn't interested in him even.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 18/11/20 11:57 PM
Originally Posted by Svalr
Originally Posted by Xeneize
Other than the game literally screaming that it wants you to romance her, I have no issues with Shadowheart.

I felt quite the opposite, you have to try harder with her to get on her good side.
Gale was the one who I felt the game was nudging me in the direction of constantly and I wasn't interested in him even.

There's a difference between "the game" and "each character" screaming at you to romance them.

Astarion, Lae''zel, and Gale all explicitly scream at you to romance them.
The game (presenting SH as a mystery, making her one of the first companions you come across on the beach, the fact that she has a tender fireside-chat scene instead of a fuck scene) is steering you towards her much more so than to Wyll or Lae'zel.
Wyll...idk he's busy screaming at his love interest.
Posted By: Verte Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 12:00 AM
Originally Posted by FelLich
The game screams at you to romance all of them...


Yep, and Astarion was the only one yellow marked for me at tiefling party. He was very hmm open about his needs, when the recruitment was the only time he spent few mins in the party. Go fiddle yourself, mate...


About Gale, Alice put it perfectly in words. There is something off with him.
Posted By: FelLich Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 12:13 AM
I mean anyone who would turn themselves into a nuclear bomb, because rejection, is probably off their meds.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 12:20 AM
I have played the early access. I say this and probably if i am right someone will remember this words.

I think Shadowheart worship of Shar is not genuine at all. I think she is indeed a cleric but nof ot Shar. And i think she is costantly brainwashed. There are many instances where she show genuinely a good side and she show to care. However i do believe she is a quite a lot conflicted character and part of her true self can surface out if not all if she manage to recover the memory.

To me she is just Brainwashed with no memories. And her reactions with the temple of Selune... Well that speaks a lot to me.

((would also explain why her approval is inconsistent at time. ))

Posted By: Svalr Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Svalr
Originally Posted by Xeneize
Other than the game literally screaming that it wants you to romance her, I have no issues with Shadowheart.

I felt quite the opposite, you have to try harder with her to get on her good side.
Gale was the one who I felt the game was nudging me in the direction of constantly and I wasn't interested in him even.

There's a difference between "the game" and "each character" screaming at you to romance them.

Astarion, Lae''zel, and Gale all explicitly scream at you to romance them.
The game (presenting SH as a mystery, making her one of the first companions you come across on the beach, the fact that she has a tender fireside-chat scene instead of a fuck scene) is steering you towards her much more so than to Wyll or Lae'zel.
Wyll...idk he's busy screaming at his love interest.


I mean Lae'Zel is the first one you run into and Shadowheart being a mystery makes sense story-wise.
It makes sense why she'd hide her worship and who she is.

I don't think that Lae'Zel is telling the whole truth either, and Gale also hides his past too.
Posted By: FelLich Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 12:50 AM
The god stuff is definitely one of the bigger questions as none of it has really be shown in the introduction we've got. Apparently the Dead Three are in play as well as Shar to some extent, Gale's not over Mystra so who knows where that'll go, there's a hint that Lolth may be watching to some degree and there's a chance that the Absolute may not in fact be a Mind Flayer peace circle. Sort of the problem with having only the Intro, a bunch of stuff is teased and you don't know if things will be expanded upon or left as a tidbit.

Just wait Svalr, you'll discover that Lae'zel is heir apparent to Vlaakith.
I don't find her appealing, but I don't hate her enough to rant about it on the internet. She's sort of... meh. Sorry, Shadowheart, my fellow "modern woman."

Also, I'm pretty sure Gale didn't intend to eat an evil piece of shadow magic, and wasn't planning to bring any empires crashing down. He just wanted a nice present for his ex-girlfriend and apparently had no concept that some things might be out of his league.
Posted By: fallenj Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 01:58 AM
Originally Posted by JustAnotherBaldu
Originally Posted by Albannach

I find her so unpleasant and annoying, I don't care about her 'mysterious past'. I kill her and that takes care of that.
I generally killed Sebille in DOS2 because anyone who wants to murder you for merely looking at them probably needs to be put out of their misery.

HAHahahahahaha!
Can we bro-fist on that?
Sybille yeah that was her name.
Killed her too once just for that stunt.
But I reloaded afterwards cause I was still too curious to see what her Edgelording was all about. ^_^
And because I wanted a Rogue in my party.

Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
I like all the companions in their own way, but that doesn't stop me thinking that some of them are actual grade A morons (wyll and gale im looking at you)

What? Why them? Those are the most "sane" people there!! ^_^

Wyll is the literal Hero archetype and he shares my great hate for Goblins. =)
Gale is not that much of a Hero, but he too enjoys doing good stuff.
How are they moronic? laugh


Originally Posted by Verte
Both pay attention to conventions and try to fit into the male worldview of a good girl.


Its not a worldview to behave logically and normal though.
In your defense I do not know much about Shar-Clerics and from what I found out ingame, Shar is a Goddess I would never consider to worship.
Shar is a Deity of Secrets though. Which also means of manipulation.
Which means: Of decieving others.

Shadowheart could therefore play the part of a very benevolent person! Maybe even try to be heroic and cheerful, or optimistic?
You know - the clever path of being a nasty, manipulative t... otally smart, evil Cleric. =)
But she isn't.

I totally expect that at some point LarianStudio's will find a suuuuuuper believable reason for all of her character. If we recieve enough flashback material about her that is.
So that all will be forgiven and I feel so bad that I had such an unimpressed and annoyed opinion of her in the past.
I will be redeemed...
... in simping service to this high Lady (LOL)...
... and kiss her feet like the lowly male that I am. (snort)

Since this seems to be societys worldview of a good boy that is!
" She is a Wamen! All Wamen are Queeeeeeeens! "

xD

Originally Posted by Atlus
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Originally Posted by Atlus

I wish if you were playing a mage character, the narrator would give you a understanding of how horrific what Karsus
did to the weave was and the fact that Gale even attempted it should definitely make you think “This dude has no moral boundaries and definitely has threatened more innocent lives than any of your evil companions.” Kinda like a power for a price situation with the cost being unnatural obsession.

I like the juxtaposition between his "good face" and "polite manner" and the fact that he has the ambitions, drive and morals of a neutral evil character. Killing a single goblin in cold blood: nope, pointless, vindictive even; causing the deaths of thousands upon thousands to become a the most powerful wizard ever: yep, every time, no hesitation

but after all that he ends up bumped back down to lvl 1 with a flayer-parasite in his head. can you say owned?


I like that interpretation a lot. I wonder if, as the game progresses, you start to see how “ambitious” he is and it starts to bring your character into conflict. My understanding is you get a glimpse of it if you “fail” to feed him. I really like the idea of being locked into a character you think is good and then turns out that he’s just a human(oid) with complicated interests.


Does he really have a tadpol in his head?
As far as I could tell he was lying, the other npcs you have a "mindmeld" of sorts when you come across this them. A mage shows up from a portal asking questions and acting like he knows you, along with no "mindmeld" scenario.
I generally don't trust wizards and didn't press convo's with this character, so I have no clue truthfully. On a side note, he was eating dirt next to the portal more times than one on my plays.

Wyll is probably my least fav character out of all of them, you know this guy if you give him the chance will talk about himself for 20minutes straight. I don't know which one is worse the wiz or the douche lock.
Originally Posted by Atlus
Karsus had "good" intentions but didn't understand the implications of taking Mystra's power and controlling all of magic. I'd wager that put Gale in a even worse position because he knew about it -- and did. not. care.


Gale wasn't trying anything of the kind, though.

He just wanted to free a fragment of the Weave that had been trapped in an ancient book by an ancient mage. There's nothing morally ambivalent about that, as far as I can see. Just arrogant and stupid.

Gale can be super sleezy, I'll grant you that, but I don't get the impression he'd commit mass murder to gain power, which seemed to be implied earlier in the thread. He'll just passively endanger the lives of everyone around him rather than isolating himself in some safe place. A pretty solidly true neutral character, I think.
Posted By: fallenj Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 02:28 AM
Originally Posted by Atlus
I think OOC we know that Gale has a tadpole (from the devs)


Oop you got me on this, didn't know that.
Originally Posted by Rieline
I have played the early access. I say this and probably if i am right someone will remember this words.

I think Shadowheart worship of Shar is not genuine at all. I think she is indeed a cleric but nof ot Shar. And i think she is costantly brainwashed. There are many instances where she show genuinely a good side and she show to care. However i do believe she is a quite a lot conflicted character and part of her true self can surface out if not all if she manage to recover the memory.

To me she is just Brainwashed with no memories. And her reactions with the temple of Selune... Well that speaks a lot to me.

((would also explain why her approval is inconsistent at time. ))


Yeah there is also her telling Astarion she finds romance boring and likes flings, yet she has the most chaste and lovey dovey romance scene
Posted By: FelLich Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 03:13 AM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Gale can be super sleezy, I'll grant you that, but I don't get the impression he'd commit mass murder to gain power, which seemed to be implied earlier in the thread. He'll just passively endanger the lives of everyone around him rather than isolating himself in some safe place. A pretty solidly true neutral character, I think.


Is he a psychotic mass murderer? No, not until the bomb goes off at least. But he is either an idiot or the more likely an extreme narcissist. You don't go around messing with cosmic power unless you've got a serious ego or severe inability to comprehend the kind of damage you could cause. Becoming a walking bomb capable of leveling a city is not something a neutral or good person does, at least I wouldn't think they would. At least Wyll only screwed his own soul, Gale's on a whole other level of "fuck the consequences".
Originally Posted by FelLich
Becoming a walking bomb capable of leveling a city is not something a neutral or good person does, at least I wouldn't think they would. At least Wyll only screwed his own soul, Gale's on a whole other level of "fuck the consequences".


The point is that Gale had no idea those would be the consequences. He knows it now and can be held accountable for what he does with that knowledge, but he didn't know it then.
Posted By: FelLich Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 03:53 AM
I'll concede that he probably didn't know he'd turn into a doomsday weapon. However, I'm not convinced he didn't know there were significant, and I mean significant, risks with messing around with god level magic. I'll also add that the whole alignment system is not a great way to get people's moral compass, in my opinion, other than a very general idea.
Posted By: Ari Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 03:59 AM
Interesting that Asterion will get all kinds of interpretations about how he is not all that bad a person deep down. But when it comes to Gale or wyl, there is great focus put on their vices.
He was messing around with a small piece of the Weave - that's not quite god level magic. Though I may be misunderstanding just how powerful the control of a small piece of the Weave would make you.

And you're right, the alignment system doesn't do more than give a general idea of someone's behavior. That's more or less its entire value as far as I'm concerned - giving you a general idea of how someone behaves, which may not apply in certain circumstances and which can shift gradually over time.
Why is this dumpster fire of a post not locked yet? This is just an excuse for the OP to vomit his naked misogyny all over the forum.

If you're not going to shut this down, at least change the title from "Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart" to "Why I effortlessly dislike women", so people know what they're getting in to here.
Originally Posted by Svalr
I like her, but I feel like her disapproval and approval is way too inconsistent, probably the worst out of any character.

If you don't like her you can always just kill her instead of taking her along.


I don't know if I'd describe Shadowheart's approval as inconsistent. She just doesn't easily fall into the "good deed vs bad deed" binary most people assume characters should fall into.

From my experience with her Shadowheart is a neutral good person who's trying to be neutral evil. Basically she's a fundamentally good person who is striving to be a self centered pragmatist who can do what is necessary to further her personal goals.

She likes it when you ignore people's pleas for help and dislikes it when you agree to go out of your way to help someone, but she likes it when you help people after already agreeing to do it. She dislikes it when you perform senseless acts of evil and dislikes it when you pick unnecessary fights.

Keeping that personality in mind I find I am rarely surprised by her reaction to things I do. It might seem counter-intuitive, but that is because it is. She's a bit hypocritical. Which comes from the fact that she's part of this religion that espouses virtues of selfishness and pragmatism that don't necessarily align with how she genuinely feels.

So she'll go along with attacking the grove because she rationalizes it as the pragmatic thing to do to further your goals. Then she'll get drunk as Hell because even though she's telling herself it had to be done she still feels guilty about the deed because deep down she knows it was wrong.

Honestly she's probably the most complex of the current followers.

It's just a shame she's mechanically so weak comparatively.
Hey, we've managed to have a perfectly civil, entirely off-topic conversation. That's a win - I think.
Posted By: Ari Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 04:44 AM
Originally Posted by Atlus
Originally Posted by Ari
Interesting that Asterion will get all kinds of interpretations about how he is not all that bad a person deep down. But when it comes to Gale or wyl, there is great focus put on their vices.


I think that the narrative wants you to have this view. Asterion is flagrantly evil at first but then you hear about his backstory and you think “oh, well, there’s a bigger bad dude” but then

you learn that he’s such a bastard that even vampires don’t trust him


It makes you try to parse out how evil he naturally is vs how evil he is in reaction to becoming a free day walker.

Gale & Wyll both present at heroes in the narrative but the more you learn, the more you smell something fishy. Both seemingly come up with more “ph, btw, you should probably have known this two hours ago”

Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Why is this dumpster fire of a post not locked yet? This is just an excuse for the OP to vomit his naked misogyny all over the forum.

If you're not going to shut this down, at least change the title from "Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart" to "Why I effortlessly dislike women", so people know what they're getting in to here.


I will admit that I have been flip-flopping on joining this forum due to the lack of moderation and (in my view) near constantly inflammatory comments/threads


Things are not so bad here. Just gotta learn how to discern a hill not worth dying over and keep in mind that we are the vocal (and mostly negative) minority.

I did find the journey of parsing Asterion’s character interesting on a first playthrough admittedly. He started bad, looked like he may have some good, and then realized first impressions should be trusted.

In wyl and Gale’s case, I think it just comes down to the fact that, the moment a person is presented as altruistic, they are held to higher standards. Or just that the contrast in character traits will make the smaller ones stand out more.
Posted By: Soul-Scar Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 04:58 AM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Why is this dumpster fire of a post not locked yet? This is just an excuse for the OP to vomit his naked misogyny all over the forum.

If you're not going to shut this down, at least change the title from "Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart" to "Why I effortlessly dislike women", so people know what they're getting in to here.


How does dislike of one fictional female character translate to misogynism?
Posted By: FelLich Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 05:06 AM
Originally Posted by Soul-Scar
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Why is this dumpster fire of a post not locked yet? This is just an excuse for the OP to vomit his naked misogyny all over the forum.

If you're not going to shut this down, at least change the title from "Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart" to "Why I effortlessly dislike women", so people know what they're getting in to here.


How does dislike of one fictional female character translate to misogynism?


Personal opinions will translate into opinions of characters that's just how life is.

Honestly I figured hijacking this thread for general companion hot take discussion was the best course of action. The weave fragment that Gale was trying to get was a piece of Mystra, so it more than likely wasn't full god power but it was part of her power and so, in my mind, dangerous to mess with. How dangerous, well we know that it turned him into a bomb. Before messing with it, we don't really know unless Gale later fesses up about knowing that there were some real dangerous it's more just an assumption on my part that he should've known it was dangerous to mess with. Look at the Bhaalspawn, they all had fragments of Bhaal's power and they were fairly dangerous.

When it comes to Astarion, I've stated the point that he strikes me as aristocracy, above the peasants and all that. Combined with the eternal undeath he's developed a cruelty bent. Though he does state that he's been under Cazador's control for 200 years, so that would shape a person. Of course Cazador could be the evil that Astarion has described or he could be keeping Astarion in line, keeping him from feeding on or killing people. He also in my mind just fits a bunch of vampire tropes and doesn't really interest me. Though I suppose if he was a woman I'd probably pay more attention...so there's that.

The funny one is Lae'zel, she pretty much gets written off as an angry soldier type who needs to get to the Creche and that's about that. Or at least that's what I've seen.

Finally, the Approval and Disapproval system requires interjection on the companions part. Having them just silently like or dislike something really hurts getting a feel for the kind of person they really are.
Originally Posted by Soul-Scar
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Why is this dumpster fire of a post not locked yet? This is just an excuse for the OP to vomit his naked misogyny all over the forum.

If you're not going to shut this down, at least change the title from "Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart" to "Why I effortlessly dislike women", so people know what they're getting in to here.


How does dislike of one fictional female character translate to misogynism?

Well, the op has written that this fictional female character "represents the modern day woman". If you hate a character who at the same time is representing to you an entire group of people, that implies you also hate this specific group.
Originally Posted by JustAnotherBaldu
After having a few discussions about her and the whole probably "kind of like a god-child" or something theorys and the like...
... and Shadowheart always popping up again as a theme of discussion in circles I am a part of, I feel the need to get this off my chest.


She is not hot stuff. She only looks hot. But she is not hot stuff.
Shadowheart represents the modern day Woman.
Wannabe strong & independend Woman, which never truly takes an active role in anything, but is also never happy with the results of anything.


Didn't need to read further than this sexist garbage
Posted By: Soul-Scar Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 07:24 AM
Originally Posted by ash elemental

Well, the op has written that this fictional female character "represents the modern day woman". If you hate a character who at the same time is representing to you an entire group of people, that implies you also hate this specific group.


Misogynism is deep haterd of women. Not some woman, not a woman, not a certain type of woman, ALL women. If the dislike of a certain personality type is considered a deep bigoted hatred towards everyone with the same private parts that particular person happens to have then by default everyone on earth is criminally insane.

People shouldn't throw damning insults about in an attempt to delete them and their opinion because they disagree with their statements. If you disagree then use your words, don't demand the moderator delete their post because (insert cancel culture buzzword). I am pretty sure from the context and wording the OP was being satirical. If you get offended to the point you feel the need to demand the erasure an innocuous comment from a bloody game forum then maybe it isn't OP with the hate issues? Just saying.


Originally Posted by FelLich

Finally, the Approval and Disapproval system requires interjection on the companions part. Having them just silently like or dislike something really hurts getting a feel for the kind of person they really are.


I think that would be a good addition but the work involved in adding this to every conversation would be quite laborious. Imagine everytime you see "Gale approves" he actually said something? Hey I approve of you drinking from the well, good job!!. Lol, dunno.
Originally Posted by Soul-Scar

Misogynism is deep haterd of women. Not some woman, not a woman, not a certain type of woman, ALL women. If the dislike of a certain personality type is considered a deep bigoted hatred towards everyone with the same private parts that particular person happens to have then by default everyone on earth is criminally insane.

People shouldn't throw damning insults about in an attempt to delete them and their opinion because they disagree with their statements. If you disagree then use your words, don't demand the moderator delete their post because (insert cancel culture buzzword). I am pretty sure from the context and wording the OP was being satirical. If you get offended to the point you feel the need to demand the erasure an innocuous comment from a bloody game forum then maybe it isn't OP with the hate issues? Just saying.

Modern day woman isn't a personality type. A personality is not something you assign based on gender, or really any other feature unrelated to character, such as sexual orientation, or race.

You might be pretty sure that the OP was being satirical, but satire attempts can be mysoginistic, homophobic, racists etc. It's easy to dismiss it as "just humor", especially if one is not the target group.

I also haven't demanded anything from mods in here, so perhaps you should consider your own advice here.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 08:23 AM
I really disagree with OP here, while I don't particularly like Shadowheart, I don't think she is bad, and her character and actions are very understandable. Also it is very human to do something and then only realize the exact scope of it when you are finally left with the consequences, it is called regret.

To the better discussion...

Wizards kinda do be like that though, going for amazing cosmic power thinking they can handle it and then getting way over their head. My 4e Wizard character unintentionally got involved with demons and while he has (kinda) overcame that to become stronger, said involvement endangered the party and continues to endanger the party. Gale comparatively is a walking time bomb because he got involved with things he shouldn't. Wizards delve into the power of magic and get stronger if they overcome falling to it, or they cause great unintentional disaster.

Astarion I don't think he is completely evil, like he is clearly on the evil side, that is to be completely certain, but he has his moments and I think involvement with our characters will give him a a path to semi redemption
But hey in general to whoever tries to femsplain me here and thinks I am a massagonist (yeah can't remember that term one english term ^^)
and secretely thinks i am oldfashioned and patriarchircal and all that stuff

I link to you the last seconds of what I COINCIDENTALLY just found on GlobalistTube. xD
Have fun. ^^ https://youtu.be/l5TuV1OrG8A?t=1651

Shadowheart should check her sass previlige muahahahahahahaha!


Originally Posted by alice_ashpool

Wyll was seduced into selling his soul by a sexy cambion lady who promised him power. Gale implanted himself with a nuclear bomb because he was horny for a goddess.


Buwh wha- hubawha-?! ^^

Wyll did not KNEW she was a Devil and Mizora tricked him.
She offered "help" and seemed reliable probably.

And Gale could not know that a divine part of Mystra, whatever that part was, would over time become some wierd kind of magical blackhole.
I too would not expect that. Would you? This energy-something that Gale freed from whatever sealed box has changed nature all by itself it seems.
Does have a lot of common with the story of Pandora's box I must say.
As in it was not worth opening it.
Still - Wyll has no more powers at his disposal to safe those in need.
And Gale is trying to solve his a problem he couldn't see coming.

While Astarion - the generic badboy ( that I am awkwardly synched up with ^^; )
is just having a blast and laughs at everyone's misfortune and tries to profit from it without any shame. wink
( But I guess nobody expects an overly virtuous persona from a Vampirespawn. )
Posted By: Umsche Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 09:40 AM
Well the guy you just quoted sounds like a mysognistic incel who admits he wants a girl(pedo?) and not a woman.

Posted By: Verte Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 09:42 AM
Originally Posted by JustAnotherBaldu
But hey in general to whoever tries to femsplain me here and thinks I am a massagonist (yeah can't remember that term one english term ^^)
and secretely thinks i am oldfashioned and patriarchircal and all that stuff

I link to you the last seconds of what I COINCIDENTALLY just found on GlobalistTube. xD
Have fun. ^^ https://youtu.be/l5TuV1OrG8A?t=1651


Shadowheart should check her sass previlige muahahahahahahaha!


Why I have the feeling it is Wham christmas song or another crap trap
Originally Posted by JustAnotherBaldu
But hey in general to whoever tries to femsplain me here and thinks I am a massagonist (yeah can't remember that term one english term ^^)
and secretely thinks i am oldfashioned and patriarchircal and all that stuff

I link to you the last seconds of what I COINCIDENTALLY just found on GlobalistTube. xD
Have fun. ^^ https://youtu.be/l5TuV1OrG8A?t=1651

Shadowheart should check her sass previlige muahahahahahahaha!

could you continue to write more on this topic, and in this particular style please
@alice
Just because we all bored that the EarlyAccess content is over and we must entertain ourself with drama now? wink

But you must admit Wyll and Gale are victims of their own naivety.
Allthough one has to ask themself, if they do not have the money to learn spells like a Wizard, or caught the eye of a god and got Cleric Spells, why not sell your Soul to a Devil to do some good?

Is Wyll an utter idiot? Or is he a truly selfless person?
Apparently selling your Soul to a Devil means you won't reincarnate normally anymore.
Instead you will do so as a Devil and apparently, for all eternity.


But what are we as people truly?
Are we Mortals?
Are we Humans?
Are we our Soul?

I say we are none of that. What we are in our truest essence, is our memorys and our ideals & values.
And if that value demands Justice and Heroism at the cost of only our own otherwise useless Soul for damnation, so be it?!
True selfsacrifice in its purest form.

Wyll might have become a powerful person in the future who knows? Maybe even without a Devils support.
But he chose the guaranteed route for quick abilitys in the very near future.
I respect his bravery.
Posted By: Dexai Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 11:43 AM
As of now Shadowheart is pretty much my second favourite character of the followers. Sure, her name is ridiculous, she's a fair edgy Mary Sue and suffers quite a lot from main-charactritis, but she seems to be the most interesting and well-written character of the lot. It's pretty well communicated that she's shit at being evil. She doesn't like getting involved in things that doesn't concern her but doesn't like to cause people harm if it can be avoided either. The drunken regret scene after the Grove Massacre was a nice touch. It's very nice to have an evil character who isn't Stupid Evil.

My favourite is still Gale, though, just because of his immediate friendly and charming demeanour (arrogance aside). It was particularly nice to have somebody actually compliment you when he likes what you do as contrast to the three assholes in the group who mainly whine. I agree that something seems off about him, though. I hope it's not just narrative disconnect.
Posted By: EMC_V Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 12:49 PM
I wan't very interested in Shadow Heart, but reading this topic, I think it could be more interesting than I thought. In forgotten there are interesting stories about clerics changing deities. Shadow Heart amnesia might mean that she was a cleric of another god/godess that was tricked by Shar. Or maybe like the story on the first temple, that she gave up her memories for Shar, but that sacrifice wasn't really appreciated. If she was the cleric from that story, it could be interesting that she was given another chance to not end in the wall of souls.

The hag plays with the "woman need rescue" trope when she pretends to be a "poor old lady" with Wyll falling for it. By the way, if you play as a wizard and tell Wyll that you learned your moves by studying, he says that he never liked to study. As a rich noble, he could have paid to learn magic, he just wanted the easy path. And made a deal not fully understanding what he was agreeing to. That doesn't make him evil, but he isn't the brighest either. Which is reinforced by his reaction with Ethel and other "want to be a famous hero" situations. So maybe, an evil companion who played the pleasing woman pretending to be nice, good and compliant could have worked better for the OP. A truly deceitful evil character. XD

And Gale, while nice, is manipulative. That is why he waits until he has no choice to tell about his situation, even if it could literally explode at any time. Which is logical from a selfpreservation point of view, but manipulative anyway.

Anyway, I agree that the game would improve if there were more intelligent evil characters/route and more intelligent good characters/route.
Posted By: Dulany67 Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 01:04 PM
I think of shadowheart as a cheerleader, then it all makes sense.
Posted By: ohhimark Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 01:07 PM
You dont have to like every character, not every character is designed to be likeable by everyone. Trying to draw parallels between "modern women" and "karens" in order to reinforce your stance for why you dislike a character is an interesting direction but all its really doing is fishing for drama and looks like a rant, without providing any really useful constructive feedback. Sort of what you would expect to see on 4chan. Saying she is a wannabe strong & independent looks more like a jaded perception. If you actually try out some different options you will find that she will stand up for herself. E.g. play a Gith and try to call her bluff when you first meet her, see what happens to you. Or just dont pick her up from the starting area e.t.c. My own stance on her is that, sure she has a pretty face, but much like Laezel they arent intended to be likeable friendly personalities. Her mildly disgusted reaction to killing the tieflings falls inline with her conflicted stance on her religion and hints at a messed up upbringing, if you save the tiefliings she mentions that she didnt think she would care about what happens to them so its a conflict of character (its like fricking anakin all over again...and your palpatine) Making a bunch of white washed goody two shoes characters with no flaws doesnt make it easy to build a compelling narative. Just look at Dragon Age as an example, even characters that seem high on order and being strong tend to have something messed up about them e.g. blackwall. I dont think the character is perfect, or any are for that matter, but considering how this is just the early stages of the game there is still room for character development and explanation. You cant judge a book by its cover, especially when the books intentionally trying to tell you to stop asking questions and mind your own business, sure its a pain in the ass tho for lore nerds that want all the info.

Basically in the real world conflicts of character and things and people being neither black or white but instead grey is more common and realistic than one dimentional decisions and characters.
Originally Posted by FelLich
He also in my mind just fits a bunch of vampire tropes and doesn't really interest me. Though I suppose if he was a woman I'd probably pay more attention...so there's that.


Heh, and if Shadowheart was a guy, I'd probably pay more attention. We need mods that turn Astarion into a sexy woman in a low cut dress and Shadowheart into Clark Gable cosplaying as Conan the Barbarian. How opinions would change! wink
Posted By: Verte Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 02:49 PM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel

Heh, and if Shadowheart was a guy, I'd probably pay more attention. We need mods that turn Astarion into a sexy woman in a low cut dress and Shadowheart into Clark Gable cosplaying as Conan the Barbarian. How opinions would change! wink


Haven't really read the thread, but she reminds me of Kerillian from Vermintide 2, if anyone here's played that. So, I don't have real problems with her character, as long as there is some sort of redemption arc and/or she becomes more pleasant to interact with as the game goes on. If it's just full-on Kerillian for the entire game, that'll get old real quick.
Posted By: Topgoon Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 19/11/20 06:19 PM
I've enjoyed how every companion in BG3 is hiding something from you.

What makes Shadowheart uniquely more interesting is the extra layer that beyond her deceptions, it seems like she doesn't know her own story fully. Her story is the one I am currently looking forward to explore the most.
Originally Posted by JustAnotherBaldu

Shadowheart represents the modern day Woman.


aight ima head out.
Posted By: FelLich Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 20/11/20 05:31 AM
It is fun with this thread to see the folks who just read the first bit then immediately comment.

Originally Posted by Tarlonniel

Heh, and if Shadowheart was a guy, I'd probably pay more attention. We need mods that turn Astarion into a sexy woman in a low cut dress and Shadowheart into Clark Gable cosplaying as Conan the Barbarian. How opinions would change! wink


What's funny is that if Shadowheart were a dude this thread would not exist. If Astarion was a woman I wonder if people would be offended about their attitude or if they'd like it. Considering someone was offended by the Goblins having a cockney accent everything and anything is possible.
Posted By: Asseronia Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 20/11/20 06:39 AM
Hmmm I have a slightly different opinion about Shadowheart - I really enjoy her company - she is harsh at first, but this is understandable - but when she starts to open, she became a very cool companion.
I'm 100% sure that on full release I'm taking Shadowheart and Laezel to my group.
Originally Posted by FelLich
What's funny is that if Shadowheart were a dude this thread would not exist.


You don't think we'd get a thread about Shadowheart representing the modern day Man? I mean, it's obvious - just like so many modern Men I know, he would be male, and have opinions, and generally behave like a human being! But I don't know if video games are ready for that.
Originally Posted by Asseronia
Hmmm I have a slightly different opinion about Shadowheart - I really enjoy her company - she is harsh at first, but this is understandable - but when she starts to open, she became a very cool companion.
I'm 100% sure that on full release I'm taking Shadowheart and Laezel to my group.


Question from a non-EA player (so please no spoilers wink ): is Shadowheart this "not actually evil, just tragic backstory broken girl" cliche? I want to like her, but I'm not a fan of that trope.
Posted By: Zefhyr Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 20/11/20 03:44 PM
Actually shadowheart isn't dat good written.

She is totally cliche. Completely the "I'm mean but it's because I'm soft and broken inside please help me love me, bring me light".

TO compare, if you are looking for companions well-written, with depths, personality and consistency, you should look at pathfinder.

Amiri is a classical yet interesting barbarian with a story she didn't throw in your face.
Jaethal is a good bad companion, well-written, with spirit and a true strong-mind.
And we could keep going...

The companions ni BG3 are... nice but, from my point of view, far from amazing and memorable for some of them. There is too much inconsistency in their writing.

PS: people should be more open to the opinions different from theirs. Even if the OP can be considered clumsy in the way he present his opinion, it doesn't mean all he means is stupid.
Shadowheart is this obvious false bad girl and the game really want you to get it fast and there is no fun talking to a girl which is mean knowing she will soft with time and patience. And yet, I'm one of this gamers fond of romance.
So I would like to do this one but she is just as obvious as not-dat-good-written.
Posted By: Abits Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 20/11/20 03:49 PM
Shadowheart might not be very original, but neither are Amiri and Jaethal. It doesn't mean she is badly written. I'm surprised you didn't mention Octavia, a companion who was actually kind original for an RPG (but that doesn't mean she was well written)
Posted By: Leuenherz Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 20/11/20 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by Abits
Shadowheart might not be very original, but neither are Amiri and Jaethal. It doesn't mean she is badly written. I'm surprised you didn't mention Octavia, a companion who was actually kind original for an RPG (but that doesn't mean she was well written)


This.

In fact, Amiri was terrible, easily the worst companion next to Linzi, and Jaethal had potential but was underdrawn. Though I wouldn't necessarily call "flirty free spirit" all that original either.

To be fair though, originality does not really matter in terms of making a character compelling. It's all in the execution.

And while there are things BG3 could learn from PF:KM, I would not say how to make good companions is among those. The companions in that game were very hit-or-miss and also suffered from the lackluster translation from Russian to English in some cases.
Second that. I've enjoyed PK as a fantasy adventure, but the only companions that stood out for me were Jubilost and Nok-Nok. Jubilost, because of his personal quest and motivations, and Nok-Nok for his entire storyline. I expected the little guy to be only there for comic relief, and was pleasantly disappointed.

From the top of my head, most memorable companions were in Planescape Torment, and from more recent games Pillars of Eternity.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 20/11/20 04:24 PM
I didn't really gel with many of the PFKM companions. They were okay, but I wouldn't have chosen many of them as characters if I was setting a game up.

Amiri was one of Pathfinder's Iconics, and thus she started out as a stereotype before hitting PFKM. It was why you couldn't romance her, apparently. Paizo were uncomfortable with her potentially having a sexual element. As a companion I found her grating and boring; every stereotype Barbarian character rolled into one.

Jaethal was far too "oooh, I'm a special emo snowflake" for my tastes. The worst of being an elf and a voluntary undead. I rarely took her along because healing her was a pain in the arse and required the clerics to take feats to stop hurting her every time they cast group healing. Yes, she was a powerhouse in combat and had useful skills, but the downsides were too much for me to go down that route. I recall that the only times I really took her along was when I was playing a Necromancer or evil Cleric, and that was mainly for flavour.

Linzi... urgh. Another Imoen chirpy optimistic pain in the posterior. I rarely take to that sort of NPC in games.


So yes, writing NPC companions for CRPGs is tough. What some people like, others will hate. What some see as stereotyped and lazy, others see as iconic and defining. The answer to interesting companions in tabletop gaming is to write your own, but that doesn't work in a CRPG where they have established backstories and are important sources of plot.
Posted By: Abits Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 20/11/20 05:32 PM
I'm replying pathfinder now so it's rather fresh, and I think the biggest problem with the companions there is pacing. You could play for hours without any progress in their stories most of which are completely disconnected from the main plot.
Posted By: LD88 Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 20/11/20 07:30 PM
My only issue with Shadowheart is that when she is a being a bitch, I don't get to bitch back. Our dialogue options are so frustrating when she is acting like an arrogant arse. But if they got her to approve of us getting into fights with her when she is being a bitch, I would like her more, and I would recruit her again (which I only did in my first playthough).
PS: the fact you miss Aerie really says a lot about you. I mean, Aerie, the lvl 20 priestess/mage who still thought herself worthless whithout a strong rashemi berserker and his hamster around.... I mean, come on. Grow up....
Posted By: FelLich Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 20/11/20 09:04 PM
KotoR 1&2 the companions were good, swtor had some good ones and some garbage ones. Mass Effects 1 & 2 companions were pretty good though I'll admit Jacob seemed irrelevant, same goes for the companions introduced in 3, I genuinely remember nothing of Vega. Fallout 4's companions were alright, though that whole game wasn't fleshed out enough.

The thing with Shadowheart is mainly her bitchyness comes from when you're trying to pry/learn more and considering she's a Shar disciple it makes sense. She has a general dismissal of the Grove and its problems but so did all the others except Wyll. Hell, Wyll is the only one with a hard red line for conscience. As for companions being "original" They're all a repeat of something previous, maybe just with a different coat of paint, plenty of tropes for everyone.
Let's behave like adults and not resort to insults or passive-aggressiveness towards others.
Posted By: Lethan Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 20/11/20 09:19 PM
I want to like Shadowheart.

She does not make it easy. Well spoken, attentive, witty. But she is and remains what I would call " Edge thot" and it is difficult to pull her out of that crude, rude and unkind description. Lae'zel is easier to learn about and understand their point of view -- and her race is meant to be worse than the Lolth Drow for indoctrination and excessive war crimes.

I feel as though she'll only become 'fun' or 'interesting' when you reach Baldurs gate proper and some of her memory is restored. If ever. Predicting she's actually a Sélunite -- would explain a lot. But I'm not holding my breath.


I'm getting Sebille and Lohse flashbacks from DOS2; Larian seem to like their mind-controlled or mentally unstable female characters. Here's hoping they get some edits.
Posted By: Zefhyr Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 20/11/20 11:07 PM
I never said Amiri was "original".
Did I need to quote myself ?
"Amiri was a classical barbarian"

It would be cool to have a discussion with people who actually doesn't twist my words.

Let's behave like adults
Originally Posted by Atlus
Is there a way to make forum moderators (as compared to forum admins; people currently moderating) from some of the users who are here constantly and are able to discuss things in a mature manner?


Giving AUTHORITY to random strangers sounds like an excellent idea. Mind flayers do it, why shouldn't everyone?

I await my ring of power. I'll use it responsibly. Promise. offtopic rpg003 evil
Posted By: Dexai Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 21/11/20 12:33 PM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Asseronia
Hmmm I have a slightly different opinion about Shadowheart - I really enjoy her company - she is harsh at first, but this is understandable - but when she starts to open, she became a very cool companion.
I'm 100% sure that on full release I'm taking Shadowheart and Laezel to my group.


Question from a non-EA player (so please no spoilers wink ): is Shadowheart this "not actually evil, just tragic backstory broken girl" cliche? I want to like her, but I'm not a fan of that trope.


There's strong hints that that might be the case (or something trope adjacent) but it's still not enough of her story implemented to say for certain. But yes I think it is likely.

As for how she currently is she's mostly just portrayed as "Evil, but not completely without conscience".
Posted By: Arne Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 21/11/20 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by JustAnotherBaldu
She is not hot stuff. She only looks hot. But she is not hot stuff.


I actually didn't much like the cast so far. I recruited them for solely usefulness/classes.

Astarion was included because I needed a rogue. Lae'zel was included because I needed a tank. Shadowheart was included because I needed a healer.

I feel like I am allying with them to survive - and as soon as that is done, I'll gladly part ways.
Posted By: Blade238 Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 21/11/20 09:25 PM
She seems like she has the potential to have more depth to her than a specific personality type like you're suggesting.

I think it's either currently bugged or missing progression content. If notnthen the writing is very, very bad and needs to be improved.
Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Asseronia
Hmmm I have a slightly different opinion about Shadowheart - I really enjoy her company - she is harsh at first, but this is understandable - but when she starts to open, she became a very cool companion.
I'm 100% sure that on full release I'm taking Shadowheart and Laezel to my group.


Question from a non-EA player (so please no spoilers wink ): is Shadowheart this "not actually evil, just tragic backstory broken girl" cliche? I want to like her, but I'm not a fan of that trope.


There's strong hints that that might be the case (or something trope adjacent) but it's still not enough of her story implemented to say for certain. But yes I think it is likely.


Daamn, it seems I'm not going to like any of them... Well, it was to be expected with me being so fussy, I suppose.

Originally Posted by Dexai
As for how she currently is she's mostly just portrayed as "Evil, but not completely without conscience".


That would be nice if it was the case. I'd be ok with "evil lite" (if it's well done).

Anyway, thank you for the answer! smile
Posted By: JCLock Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 22/11/20 05:11 AM
Interesting how many people dislike her character.

With her atrocious stats - I'm thinking Shadowheart is going to have a significant reveal - possibly even changing class or multiclassing.
Posted By: FelLich Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 22/11/20 05:24 AM
Aren't her stats just the cleric default stats? At this point I want to see what the rest of the companions (unreleased) ones are like.
Posted By: JCLock Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 22/11/20 05:55 AM
Originally Posted by FelLich
Aren't her stats just the cleric default stats?


No. That might have been easier to work with.

Originally Posted by FelLich
At this point I want to see what the rest of the companions (unreleased) ones are like.


Amen, I really wanted a party full of Drow and that one human for comedic relief. Unlikely to happen with a cast of origin characters - I'd have to do some multiplayer shenanigans and i wont get any 'extra' story. Like astarians master or whatever that box shadowheart has.
Posted By: fallenj Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 22/11/20 07:26 AM
Originally Posted by Abits
I'm replying pathfinder now so it's rather fresh, and I think the biggest problem with the companions there is pacing. You could play for hours without any progress in their stories most of which are completely disconnected from the main plot.


Isn't Chris Avellone part of the writing team on that game? You know one of the writers/founders of Obsidian that got pushed off to the side during Pillars of Eternity. I remember him saying that Pillars of Eternity was taken in a different direction with the writing focusing more on side quests / companions than the main plot.

oh here we go:

Posted By: Leuenherz Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 22/11/20 11:28 AM
Originally Posted by fallenj
Originally Posted by Abits
I'm replying pathfinder now so it's rather fresh, and I think the biggest problem with the companions there is pacing. You could play for hours without any progress in their stories most of which are completely disconnected from the main plot.


Isn't Chris Avellone part of the writing team on that game? You know one of the writers/founders of Obsidian that got pushed off to the side during Pillars of Eternity. I remember him saying that Pillars of Eternity was taken in a different direction with the writing focusing more on side quests / companions than the main plot.

oh here we go:



Interesting, since the first Pillars actually had a pretty strong main plot and shallow companions. I suppose he might claim this was due to his lingering influence?

The description does fit Deadfire, though.
Posted By: Arne Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 22/11/20 11:55 AM
Originally Posted by JustAnotherBaldu


She is not hot stuff. She only looks hot. But she is not hot stuff.

Being never satisfied with anything does not give someone character depth. And I could give a sh°t about her Shar-Cleric Amnesia. She signed up for this. So this is no excuse for anything.


She's just always grumpy. I suspect there will be more companion choices in the finished game and then we'll just choose someone else.

But right now the choices are limited and a cleric is certainly useful. So I'll just take her along but not talk to her.
Posted By: Arne Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 22/11/20 12:00 PM
Originally Posted by Zefhyr


Amiri is a classical yet interesting barbarian with a story she didn't throw in your face.
Jaethal is a good bad companion, well-written, with spirit and a true strong-mind.
And we could keep going...


The best character is Nok Nok. I don't even need him, just taking him along for the laughs.

You couldn't romance Amiri. The other characters were a bit bland in my opinion.
Posted By: Abits Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 22/11/20 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by fallenj
Originally Posted by Abits
I'm replying pathfinder now so it's rather fresh, and I think the biggest problem with the companions there is pacing. You could play for hours without any progress in their stories most of which are completely disconnected from the main plot.


Isn't Chris Avellone part of the writing team on that game? You know one of the writers/founders of Obsidian that got pushed off to the side during Pillars of Eternity. I remember him saying that Pillars of Eternity was taken in a different direction with the writing focusing more on side quests / companions than the main plot.

oh here we go:


Interesting. I just wrote somewhere else in the forum I prefer Obsidian's stories as opposed to their characters
Obsidian had good characters in Tyranny. Also Alpha Protocol. And Mask of the Betrayer.
Posted By: Leuenherz Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 22/11/20 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Obsidian had good characters in Tyranny. Also Alpha Protocol. And Mask of the Betrayer.


I have not played Alpha Protocol and cannot speak of the quality of its character writing.

But I will second Tyranny and MotB as examples of excellence. I also very much enjoyed a small number of companions from the NWN2 base game (Khelgar, Shandra, Ammon Jerro, Sand).
Posted By: fallenj Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 22/11/20 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by Leuenherz
Interesting, since the first Pillars actually had a pretty strong main plot and shallow companions. I suppose he might claim this was due to his lingering influence?

The description does fit Deadfire, though.
Don't really know, I didn't get that far in PoE and never picked up Deadfire.

Originally Posted by Abits
Interesting. I just wrote somewhere else in the forum I prefer Obsidian's stories as opposed to their characters
Cool and ya some of the characters are kind of eh, I do enjoy there games over all though. Generally keep tabs on what he's working on next to see if I'm interested, did you know he worked on DOS2?

Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Obsidian had good characters in Tyranny. Also Alpha Protocol. And Mask of the Betrayer.
Tyranny was the last obsidian game he worked on before he left, still haven't play it though frown
Posted By: Zefhyr Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 22/11/20 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by Arne
Originally Posted by Zefhyr


Amiri is a classical yet interesting barbarian with a story she didn't throw in your face.
Jaethal is a good bad companion, well-written, with spirit and a true strong-mind.
And we could keep going...


The best character is Nok Nok. I don't even need him, just taking him along for the laughs.

You couldn't romance Amiri. The other characters were a bit bland in my opinion.


I agree,
Amiri was touching once you know her and even if she never stopped to be barbarian !

Nok-Nok is so much fun !

I liked Octavia to be honest. She was bright yet dark too. A strong woman with a high spirit.

Linzi was a really good partner too, so optimistic and fun to hear, especially when she talked with the other companions.

And Tristian deliver one hell of a really "good" surprise !
Posted By: EMC_V Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 22/11/20 07:15 PM
I think this topic shows that people have different tastes in companions.

The best bet would be to offer variety. So I realy hope that Shadowheart is not another Lohe in the sense that she is controlled by a poweful entity and you need to free her. That would be too similar. I wont mind if she turns to just be manipulative and pretending to be in distress to use you.
Posted By: Verte Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 22/11/20 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by EMC_V
I think this topic shows that people have different tastes in companions.

The best bet would be to offer variety. So I realy hope that Shadowheart is not another Lohe in the sense that she is controlled by a poweful entity and you need to free her. That would be too similar. I wont mind if she turns to just be manipulative and pretending to be in distress to use you.


in datamining there was something about Shar taking control if rolls are failed but not sure if SH was there as companion or origin
Originally Posted by Abits


Isn't Chris Avellone part of the writing team on that game? You know one of the writers/founders of Obsidian that got pushed off to the side during Pillars of Eternity. I remember him saying that Pillars of Eternity was taken in a different direction with the writing focusing more on side quests / companions than the main plot.

oh here we go:
Interesting. I just wrote somewhere else in the forum I prefer Obsidian's stories as opposed to their characters


Hadn't seen that video before. It's kinda of amazing how his views are the mirror opposite of mine. PoE1 story was fantastic where the PoE2 story was weaksauce. How anyone could think that PoE2 had a better story is beyond me. (only talking about story combat and design are clearly better) And we won't learn from that video because he doesn't actually give any reasons for his opinion and instead relies upon unsupported statements like "weaknesses in the story" (liiiike? for example?)

I hate when people just assert that there are problems with writing backing it up with anything concrete. It's a negative for clicks strategy that relies upon group dynamics instead of evidence.

Now he is right that the Avellone characters are the best ones in the game. Sagani and bird paladin were forgettable characters.

I didn't know Avellone had left but I think someone like Avellone is someone who would need to be balanced and not put as lead. His stories are amazing but they don't have replay value. More of "that was great! now to free up space on the hard drive . . ."
Posted By: Arne Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 22/11/20 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by Zefhyr
Originally Posted by Arne
Originally Posted by Zefhyr


Amiri is a classical yet interesting barbarian with a story she didn't throw in your face.
Jaethal is a good bad companion, well-written, with spirit and a true strong-mind.
And we could keep going...


The best character is Nok Nok. I don't even need him, just taking him along for the laughs.

You couldn't romance Amiri. The other characters were a bit bland in my opinion.


I agree,
Amiri was touching once you know her and even if she never stopped to be barbarian !

Nok-Nok is so much fun !

I liked Octavia to be honest. She was bright yet dark too. A strong woman with a high spirit.

Linzi was a really good partner too, so optimistic and fun to hear, especially when she talked with the other companions.

And Tristian deliver one hell of a really "good" surprise !



Honestly, there is so much work in that game. Its major fault is that it is literally too large(!) They should have split it in two games or several addons.
Originally Posted by Zefhyr

Linzi was a really good partner too, so optimistic and fun to hear, especially when she talked with the other companions.

Linzi was just disappointing. She started out interesting enough; I liked she'd (initially) refuse to join your party if she thought the main character was evil. Games need more good characters with a backbone. But that little bit of independence was soon gone, because someone decided she needs to be the storyteller and basically turned her into a plot device. She couldn't leave the main character, even if they were the most tyrannical, evil ruler. At the same time the main character couldn't get rid of her either, even when Linzi acted against them (by robbing the royal treasury, at which point an evil ruler would have likely executed her).

And it was unnecessary. Icewind Dale showcases that you can have a narrator who was involved in the story, but who wasn't connected to the main character in a way that feels forced.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
His stories are amazing but they don't have replay value.


I'd take good story over replayability any day. I'm more likely to replay a title because it's just that good than to replay it because it introduced "features intended to make the game more replayable". The most important factor for me is "did I like the game a lot?".
Agreed, of the two story is the more important. I will almost certainly buy whatever avelone produces next and I think he's probably the best writer in this genre. Ravel and Durance are such great characters.

Which is why I think PoE1 is a classic and PoE2 is "eh, not so bad, kinda fun" despite the later having better mechanics.

But I'm still hoping for that ideal we got with bg2 -- good story and high replay value. I don't know if we'll ever get a game that I want to replay as much as bg2 but I'm hoping bg3 is it.
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
His stories are amazing but they don't have replay value.


I'd take good story over replayability any day. I'm more likely to replay a title because it's just that good than to replay it because it introduced "features intended to make the game more replayable". The most important factor for me is "did I like the game a lot?".



This. I'll replay Planescape: Torment 20 more times in my life, but not because it has much traditional "replay value".
Posted By: Verte Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 22/11/20 11:00 PM
I will replay some games for the story (need a break in between sessions tho) and to get different outcomes. But also I will replay games where combat is fun and challengeable. Won't lock myself in the category 'story or gtfo'.
Posted By: Sharp Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 22/11/20 11:55 PM
The story in most RPGs don't tick my good story boxes, so I settle for games with engaging combat. There are a few (Tyranny is a good example) that I have enjoyed the premise of the story in, but most of them fall very far short.
Posted By: Soul-Scar Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 23/11/20 06:53 AM
I like RPG's with a well established lore. I mean PoE was okay but it wasn't a world you could walk about and identify things you already knew about. If they made a BG type RPG based on LOTR (not another generic shitty mmo) people who knew the lore would find all sorts of interesting things. The world building is the most important part of an RPG imo other than NPC's with limited dialouge options.

I like to read of legends, old wars, historical events, gods etc. then place a "me" character in this world to explore and fill in the gaps. Lets investigate these areas 100 year after a legendary battle, or cursed undead city...... to establish yourself in the lore rather than play out some pre-determined path dictated by someone who clearly doesn't understand motivation. Good and Evil are totally subjective from the worldview of the individual, there are no such thing. There is only actions and consequence.

The Witcher had well established lore, legends etc. the world was already built for the game directors. Turned out even with a questionable combat system the game changed the RPG standard. D&D and the FR has lore, legends and history that should enable a story to write itself BUT people like to reinvent the wheel. They like to add their 2 cents that usually ends poorly. As BG3 is early access and missing 2 and half acts we will have to wait and see.
Posted By: Daniel F Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 23/11/20 09:46 AM
I recall the Ending of Mask of the Betrayer where literally all of your companions might turn against you in the City of the Dead...

Dragon Age Origins: The Golem would turn on you if you take here to the anvil of souls...
Hahahahaha, man I did not knew this topic would explode so much! grin

I bet most of these posts are not even over Shadowheart anymore.
Not that they need to be. This is more like a self-fulfilling prophecy at this point.

Once again proofen that people enjoy themself some drama. ^^
Posted By: fallenj Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 23/11/20 09:44 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Originally Posted by Abits
Isn't Chris Avellone part of the writing team on that game? You know one of the writers/founders of Obsidian that got pushed off to the side during Pillars of Eternity. I remember him saying that Pillars of Eternity was taken in a different direction with the writing focusing more on side quests / companions than the main plot.

oh here we go:
Interesting. I just wrote somewhere else in the forum I prefer Obsidian's stories as opposed to their characters


Hadn't seen that video before. It's kinda of amazing how his views are the mirror opposite of mine. PoE1 story was fantastic where the PoE2 story was weaksauce. How anyone could think that PoE2 had a better story is beyond me. (only talking about story combat and design are clearly better) And we won't learn from that video because he doesn't actually give any reasons for his opinion and instead relies upon unsupported statements like "weaknesses in the story" (liiiike? for example?)

I hate when people just assert that there are problems with writing backing it up with anything concrete. It's a negative for clicks strategy that relies upon group dynamics instead of evidence.

Now he is right that the Avellone characters are the best ones in the game. Sagani and bird paladin were forgettable characters.

I didn't know Avellone had left but I think someone like Avellone is someone who would need to be balanced and not put as lead. His stories are amazing but they don't have replay value. More of "that was great! now to free up space on the hard drive . . ."


I actually overlooked this comment cause it quoted the wrong person. If your looking for info about Chris's opinion, its better to just youtube interviews. That vid was a easy overview for the subject I was replying to.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Why I effortlessly dislike Shadowheart - 23/11/20 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
His stories are amazing but they don't have replay value.

I'd take good story over replayability any day. I'm more likely to replay a title because it's just that good than to replay it because it introduced "features intended to make the game more replayable". The most important factor for me is "did I like the game a lot?".

This. I'll replay Planescape: Torment 20 more times in my life, but not because it has much traditional "replay value".

Originally Posted by Verte
I will replay some games for the story (need a break in between sessions tho) and to get different outcomes. But also I will replay games where combat is fun and challengeable. Won't lock myself in the category 'story or gtfo'.

Originally Posted by Sharp
The story in most RPGs don't tick my good story boxes, so I settle for games with engaging combat. There are a few (Tyranny is a good example) that I have enjoyed the premise of the story in, but most of them fall very far short.

I replay Baldur's Gate II every so often for many of the same reasons I rewatch the Star Wars movies, not because there are a lot of different endings to find, but because I'm enamored with the characters, the setting and the story, linear or not.
I never finished a replay of Pillars of Eternity because after playing through it once it was pretty obvious what exactly all the other paths would do and what wasn't apparent was uninteresting.
© Larian Studios forums