Larian Studios
Posted By: OneManArmy Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 18/11/20 04:52 PM
74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems.

An optimistic note to end on.


This quote from Community Update 10 is very often quoted on the forum.

She greatly upsets the feelings of many players who wanted to play for evil, but helped the tieflings because the root of evil was poorly developed. There are even many Lolth Drow and other lovers of the path of evil who helped the tieflings because it was a logical decision. Some didn't even know that the game had the ability to help the goblins!
Don't take this statistic as a conclusion that everyone is only interested in the path of good, please.
Those who are interested in the path of evil are much more than 25%.
In the second playthrough, this figure can be 80-90% of those who made the first playthrough for the path of good, that is, all players will see this content anyway.

This is not a reason for joy and optimism, but a reason admit there is a problem and pay more attention to the evil path, Minthara, Kagha, give more motivation, more content, and so on.
Posted By: Abits Re: Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 18/11/20 05:28 PM
Why do you keep opening evil path discussions? There are
It's actually consistent with every other bit of evidence I've seen on evil paths. Light side / dark side jedi, the number of people who ran an evil party in BG, the sales numbers of Tyranny etc, etc. (and I get that the latter wasn't quite as evil as advertised but it was heavily marketed as a game for people who liked to play evil) Fans of evil playthroughs are a highly vocal minority. If you don't have an evil path in an RPG this will be mentioned in reviews and will become a hatesink for people love to hate on games.

In fact I suspect the numbers are actually inflated since Larian has been encouraging people to test it out. And it's the only way to see n00dz right now.

Granted, I get that people think this wasn't a fair test of the evil path so I would propose another: the hag fight could be changed so she can't be killed before offering her deal and Larian could report the numbers on how many players took the ability score boost and how many decided the end the hag's evil once and for all.
Posted By: Vhaldez Re: Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 18/11/20 05:47 PM
Now that there's the theory going around that all the Tieflings are in the thieves' guild and Zevlor might be working for the Absolute I'm not sure if there even is a good path anymore.
Posted By: Verte Re: Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 18/11/20 05:53 PM
Hag probably will be resurrected by her circle in BG. More important would be fixing whole quest.
Posted By: Nyanko Re: Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 18/11/20 06:02 PM
As discussed elsewhere already, the problem with the evil path in this game is essentially a design issue created by the fact the writers at Larian don't understand the nature of evil.

There are countless examples of great evil paths in movies and literature, Roy the replicant in Blade Runner or Thanos in Infinity wars, to name a few.

A good path is an emotional path, a social path where you're gonna help others essentially.

An evil path is the path of power, this sensation to be so powerful you can force others to your will easily and gain even more power to overcome the impossible and pursue your ultimate goal. So to help players be eager to explore this route, you need to provide rewards. And this game definitely doesn't.

In BG3, from what we've seen so far, we have a good path tainted by some evil moments, edgy and cruel decisions along the way. It comes down to the fact no real evil path has been written. Can we call it laziness? I don't know. But what I am sure about is you are left with no other choice but remorse and incentive to renounce evil and become the good person you always were deep inside or it will eventually only leave bitterness into your heart.

A very naive contribution to what a compelling evil story could have been if you ask me.
Well I hope the fans of evil paths get what they want. But I also hope they get it in a way that doesn't mess with the heroic path. The problem I have with most evil paths plots is the creation of viable evil path sometimes comes at the detriment to the heroic one.

The FR are a heroic setting at the stories tend to be about heroes saving the day. The path of villian should be there but the writers shouldn't be forced to make the hero's story / villians story equally appealing. Sometimes when you try to please everyone you please no one. Anyone remember John Stewart / Steven Colbert's rally for "sanity and/or fear"?

To me, the evil path seems fine. The absolute has power, that power is based in Moonrise towers and the drow is you key to unlocking that power. Astarian gets it -- you need to find out how to get the power without the cost. Check out his dialogue after finding that true soul who died from his owlbear inflicted wounds. The evil MC is in better place than the fools he has deal with -- the brainwashed cultists aren't are aware of what's happening while you are. Sounds like an opportunity that can be exploited.
Posted By: Nyanko Re: Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 18/11/20 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Well I hope the fans of evil paths get what they want. But I also hope they get it in a way that doesn't mess with the heroic path. The problem I have with most evil paths plots is the creation of viable evil path sometimes comes at the detriment to the heroic one.

The FR are a heroic setting at the stories tend to be about heroes saving the day. The path of villian should be there but the writers shouldn't be forced to make the hero's story / villians story equally appealing. Sometimes when you try to please everyone you please no one. Anyone remember John Stewart / Steven Colbert's rally for "sanity and/or fear"?

To me, the evil path seems fine. The absolute has power, that power is based in Moonrise towers and the drow is you key to unlocking that power. Astarian gets it -- you need to find out how to get the power without the cost. Check out his dialogue after finding that true soul who died from his owlbear inflicted wounds. The evil MC is in better place than the fools he has deal with -- the brainwashed cultists aren't are aware of what's happening while you are. Sounds like an opportunity that can be exploited.


I don't agree with this. In a world with alignment going in all directions, all paths should be treated equally.

We have to remember only psychopaths enjoy being evil. For the others, it's more a question of priorities over altruism and empathy. And heroism is not incompatible with evil. I am gonna give you a very good example here of what I mean. Have you watched 'The Boys' TV show? In the boys, the one sup who's perceived by the world population as the most heroic of all is also one of the most, if not the most, evil bastard you can imagine.

So a compelling evil path is a possibility to be deceiving to the point people think you are a great hero while in fact you do your best to undermine others works to stay on top. And this path should be equally satisfying as the usual good paladin saving the girl in distress.

That's why it's a complete nonsense to have the goblins becoming your enemies after you defeat the grove. It would have been so satisfying and interesting to be welcomed as their new hero back in the camp before going on on your journey. And for me, this part shows how much disdain Larian gives to the evil path.
The Boys is a really good example smile It's clever, it's got some of the aspects I liked about the Watchmen. I also liked the use of sci fi / fantasy to comment on contemporary politics. I liked it for what it was. 7 out of 10 smile

But I just don't like the "The Boys" as much I like the original Star Wars trilogy. To me Butcher is yet another variation on the Dirty Harry archetype. People who like this archetype see it as more complex and real to life and see Skywalker in his white outfit and blue light sabre as overly cartoonish.

To me both seem equally cartoonish: "Oh, look yet another dark hero. Let me guess the writer is going to establish the dark hero cred with a torture scene" Did you ever watch the TV series Arrow? I thought the first few seasons did "gritty hero" right but later ones just returned to the Dirty Harry archetype and ruined the show.

I still watch the Dirty Harry variation #483 shows and I really like the deconstructing the archetype shows like the Watchmen and Game of Thrones but I want Faerun and the Star Wars universe to be about light triumphing over darkness. As anyone who has tried experimenting with cocktails knows -- sometimes mixing two great flavors together produces an undrinkable mush.

Posted By: Abits Re: Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 18/11/20 06:52 PM
Are we really gonna discuss evil path all over again?
Posted By: Nyanko Re: Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 18/11/20 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by Abits
Are we really gonna discuss evil path all over again?


You have to remember we have new comers on the forum every day. So just like we do multiple playthroughs of the game, some important topics have to be discussed multiple times to accommodate fresh takes on them :P
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Originally Posted by Abits
Are we really gonna discuss evil path all over again?


You have to remember we have new comers on the forum every day. So just like we do multiple playthroughs of the game, some important topics have to be discussed multiple times to accommodate fresh takes on them :P



Exactly. There are actually only 10 conversations on any given forum -- everything is a variation from those themes. I mean what else are we going to discuss. "I hate character X because I don't like women?" or "boob plate is real "? wink
Oh and @Nykano -- I have no problem with / actually want examples like yours. If the hero jumps in and has the chance to save the innocent but is then given the option to sell the innocent down the river that's a good design. It gives fans of evil something to do and it makes the actions of the Paladin meaningful. Is the paladin really role playing if the option to be evil didn't exist?

Once the bugs are worked out the hag will be perfect.

What I don't like is when writers get directions like "stop thinking in terms of the hero's quest"
Originally Posted by OneManArmy

She greatly upsets the feelings of many players who wanted to play for evil, but helped the tieflings because the root of evil was poorly developed. There are even many Lolth Drow and other lovers of the path of evil who helped the tieflings because it was a logical decision. Some didn't even know that the game had the ability to help the goblins!


Because the average Gamer of today must be told everything?
Or maybe because it is the logical decision that Goblins are just trash and not a valid option?

Cause tbh. I think everybody is actually Racist and being a Racist in itself is a very Neutral thing, it just it -> and what people are really thinking is the bad thing, is what I personally call "Race hate".
Racist = Normal
Race-hate = bad

And when I see a Goblin, I see a really trashy disgusting subhumanoid, half a Monster - even without knowing actual facts about them.
The fact that Goblins truly are super evil, spite- and gleeful, this is just a Bonus confirming "their low heritage and being".




But you cannot tell me that my Drow, a narcistic longliving Darkelf with "Fae-masterrace heritage" would side with such ugly, tiny and savage beings, which resemble a fellow Drow even less as the most random Human?
It is not just about long and pointy ears. It is also about height, class, culture, mannerism and intellect.
These Goblins are some sort of Cavemen! You wonder how they can even stay alive?
Obviously by constantly plundering and looting from those who are better than them.
Only the most less and lowly Humanoid is dependend on raids, murder, stealing and constant ransacking.

As if my noble Drow would side with such lesser creatures.
Halflings, Gnomes, Dwarfs and Humans will make so much better slaves... when we decieved them for long enough until we can suddenly just conquer them entirely in one fellow swoop.
And then they will serve us as the visually tolerable Slaves that they are. wink
But Goblins? Ugh. Such hideous, incomplete creatures.

Minthara my evil sister, you have been decieved. The Absolute is not real! Only Lolth and our kin can safe you from your confusion, wake up to it! grin
Posted By: Albannach Re: Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 18/11/20 08:30 PM
The problem with evil paths in games is that they are almost always illogical.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 18/11/20 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by JustAnotherBaldu
[quote=OneManArmy]

Minthara my evil sister, you have been decieved. The Absolute is not real! Only Lolth and our kin can safe you from your confusion, wake up to it! grin



I think Lolth will not forgive her for betrayal, so when she opens her eyes to the absolute, we will have a choice - absolute evil, betray her for Lolth's sake or the Absolute to take her place, or a moderate evil that I like much more, continue to help her. Become for her a real friend and acting in our interests with the same style. As a team! That would be cool.
The fact that we play evil does not mean that we have to be a completely moral monster, there must be a optional place for something good.

Helping druids is not a good deed but should also have some kind of moral justification, and some words of gratitude from them at least, so that we can rejoice that we have new friends of the shadow druids. Now there is not a single player who helped the Kagha, who could think that he acted "cruel, but right" and remained satisfied.
More precisely, there is no quest to help Kagha in the game at all, that is, there are hints of it, but it simply has not been done.
Instead, Larian did EVERYTHING to prevent the player from having such a desire. Even her facial features and dialogue options . It's good that they didn't show the statistics of those who tried help her - even I didn't try.
This does not mean that we did not want to, it means that there is a problem.

Evil just for Evil's Sake is a Bad Decision
Originally Posted by Albannach
The problem with evil paths in games is that they are almost always illogical.


This. All the evil path really needs are some earlier hints that the tadpole:

1: Isn't an immediate threat to the host's life.
2: Can be controlled and abused to gain powers similar to a mind flayer.

That's... Pretty much it. I tried an evil playthrough a couple times but all my evil characters bounced off it because they have absolutely no reason to think siding with the goblins is in any way beneficial to them. As far as your character knows the tadpole is a ticking time bomb, and while it may seem to have a strangely long timer it will inevitably kill you.

No evil character would side with the Absolute as it is written right now. Even the Joker, the most iconic example of Chaotic Evil out there, would be trying to get the tadpole out because if he dies to the tadpole he can't make Batman kill him instead.

So the only logical path forward becomes Halsin. Good or evil it doesn't matter. As long as the player has reason to suspect their life is in danger an evil character will side with whoever can ensure their survival.
Posted By: Svalr Re: Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 19/11/20 01:09 AM
Something that would be interesting is if they actually caused real problems with the Tieflings staying at the Grove.
I think that evil or renegade options are less appealing when there's no real reason behind them other than just being evil for the sake of evil.

But what if the Tiefling and their sudden appearance actually caused a famine and NPC's started to die?
If the issues with the Tieflings staying at the Grove became an actual part of the game then the other options like forcing them out or whatever would become more appealing and understandable.
But when there's no actual issues that occur because of it then it feels less impactful and easier to just go down the good route.
Posted By: FelLich Re: Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 19/11/20 01:35 AM
Is this deja vu? I swear I saw this exact thread, same comments and all, two weeks ago.
Quote
No evil character would side with the Absolute as it is written right now. Even the Joker, the most iconic example of Chaotic Evil out there, would be trying to get the tadpole out because if he dies to the tadpole he can't make Batman kill him instead.


Really? The tadpole gives you power. That brand + gloves = power. Evil coming to bad end is always the case. If evil characters would never follow paths that lead to bad ends there would be no evil in the Forgotten Realms. The Tav who sells her soul to Asmodius is going to end up living in hell for all eternity but she does so to get more power.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Quote
No evil character would side with the Absolute as it is written right now. Even the Joker, the most iconic example of Chaotic Evil out there, would be trying to get the tadpole out because if he dies to the tadpole he can't make Batman kill him instead.


Really? The tadpole gives you power. That brand + gloves = power. Evil coming to bad end is always the case. If evil characters would never follow paths that lead to bad ends there would be no evil in the Forgotten Realms. The Tav who sells her soul to Asmodius is going to end up living in hell for all eternity but she does so to get more power.



This.
Posted By: FelLich Re: Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 19/11/20 04:03 AM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Quote
No evil character would side with the Absolute as it is written right now. Even the Joker, the most iconic example of Chaotic Evil out there, would be trying to get the tadpole out because if he dies to the tadpole he can't make Batman kill him instead.


Really? The tadpole gives you power. That brand + gloves = power. Evil coming to bad end is always the case. If evil characters would never follow paths that lead to bad ends there would be no evil in the Forgotten Realms. The Tav who sells her soul to Asmodius is going to end up living in hell for all eternity but she does so to get more power.



They also make those pacts because they believe they can escape them and gain more power or get a seat at the big boy table. Having a sentient being in your head that links you to the Mind Flayers and can also, when mature, obliterate your soul is leagues different. One you go to hell, with the every present idea that you can escape. The other you cease to exist, that is not worth some basic telepathy, shiny clothes and empty promises by something that you can, very easily in game, learn is more than likely a circle of Mind Flayers. Not to mention the whole absolute looks like a massive Trojan Horse mission where at the correct time and place they'll throw and switch and turn all the followers into Mind Flayers. There is also no point in dealing with the Mind Flayers as they see everything that isn't them as ants. There is nothing compelling about the Absolute from what we currently know. Now maybe, just maybe the Absolute isn't the Mind Flayer circle, but currently evidence points against.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 19/11/20 07:25 AM
Originally Posted by SaurianDruid
All the evil path really needs are some earlier hints that the tadpole:

1: Isn't an immediate threat to the host's life.
2: Can be controlled and abused to gain powers similar to a mind flayer.

You are kidding right?
Every single character we meet, and we are discuising with is talking about that our tadpole does nothing, and therefore we have time, since its alternet by some strainge magic ...

What more do you need? O_o

You never can be certain, since nobody we met so far have even the slightest idea about what exactly this tadpole is, or what it does ... not even a freaking mind flayer know! -_-
And that is just it ... we are supose to play on chance. Yes, we may turn ... and yes, we may controll it ... remove one option, and it become incredibly stupid.
I mean, if there is a certain way to exploid tadpole, and certainly removing all dangers that are tied to it ... why would no one use it before? Especialy if that process is so common knowledge, so some random guy in middle of nowhere knows about it? :-/
Originally Posted by OneManArmy

I think Lolth will not forgive her for betrayal, so when she opens her eyes to the absolute


Who knows? Most people do not seem to know this but Drow atually do not need to have 'red' eyes.
And apparently they only have the red eyes because Lolth favours them in some way for their mentality and actions.
Lolth probably thinks it is cute that a Drow has gone "renegade" but is still acting like an evil, cruel Drow Mistress should. She is a cruel Goddess supporting ill will and manipulation after all.
I think she would be more enraged with Minthara if she suddenly becomes a "surface Races lover" and wants to do good things overall. wink


But yeah Drow can actually lose their red eyes if they denounce Lolth and choose Eilistrae instead.
Very ni~ce if you see a Drow with eyes that are not red it is kinda a seal of proof that they are most trustworthy.
Until the Lolthsworn Drow learn to hide their eyecolor that is.
Originally Posted by FelLich
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Quote
No evil character would side with the Absolute as it is written right now. Even the Joker, the most iconic example of Chaotic Evil out there, would be trying to get the tadpole out because if he dies to the tadpole he can't make Batman kill him instead.


Really? The tadpole gives you power. That brand + gloves = power. Evil coming to bad end is always the case. If evil characters would never follow paths that lead to bad ends there would be no evil in the Forgotten Realms. The Tav who sells her soul to Asmodius is going to end up living in hell for all eternity but she does so to get more power.



They also make those pacts because they believe they can escape them and gain more power or get a seat at the big boy table. Having a sentient being in your head that links you to the Mind Flayers and can also, when mature, obliterate your soul is leagues different. One you go to hell, with the every present idea that you can escape. The other you cease to exist, that is not worth some basic telepathy, shiny clothes and empty promises by something that you can, very easily in game, learn is more than likely a circle of Mind Flayers. Not to mention the whole absolute looks like a massive Trojan Horse mission where at the correct time and place they'll throw and switch and turn all the followers into Mind Flayers. There is also no point in dealing with the Mind Flayers as they see everything that isn't them as ants. There is nothing compelling about the Absolute from what we currently know. Now maybe, just maybe the Absolute isn't the Mind Flayer circle, but currently evidence points against.


What would you prefer to see?


Personally I like the "seductive evil" trope they've gone with. In terms of demon lovers we have Mizora who seduces a would be hero into an infernal deal and a vampire the classic archetype of seductive evil. Also, the tadpole comes to us in the form of a seducer offering us real power. We know we shouldn't but somehow we do . . .

Right away we have powerful gloves that we can only use if we take the brand. Not all evil parties will kill Gut but those who do will also have a shield and amulet.

Now you are right -- if you are going to hell anyway it only makes sense to spend damnation as pit fiend. But the fact that the absolute wants us dead should tempt us to believe that we can get an Asmodius like "deal". Perhaps we can develop that power without paying the price. That's what Sarevok thought. That's what Szass Tam thought. Both brilliant strategists whose fatal flaw was their lust for power.

I don't think good evil narrative = cost free power. I think "we know we shouldn't but we do anyway" is a) more interesting b) more in keeping with realms lore c) makes the good path come alive.
Posted By: FelLich Re: Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 19/11/20 09:14 PM
Seductive evil doesn't draw me in unless it's done very well, it comes across as lesser or petty. I suppose my issue is that I prefer the pursuit of power to make things better even if others can't understand or don't agree. The idea where you want to improve things but you believe that no one else other than yourself can actually accomplish it. It's obviously not the good path because you're doing it on the belief that everyone else is simply too incompetent, too corrupt to accomplish it. "If I have to drag them into the future kicking and screaming than so be it." that kind of evil. Take the Absolute's order to destroy the grove, that's a failure to convert those people to your cause. Now obviously you can't always convince people to see things your way, sometimes you have to remove people in order to better the world. However, the complete extermination of the Teiflings and Druids shows that the Absolute is a one trick pony that can only succeed through the use of simpletons such as the Goblins and puppets such as Minthara and the Hobgoblin. That's a danger sign as for the Absolute to succeed it needs to stick tadpoles in peoples head and control them. Sure she/he will show up in your dreams and offer you power, however as you progress you gain a fairly good idea that its the tadpole and its master pushing you to use it more and more so that it can grow stronger rather than you. Of course, beating the dead horse, we're not sure if its a Illithid plot or been hijacked by a singular or group of gods so there is a chance that there's a carrot somewhere, but it's a pretty shriveled carrot. If the there was an objective to convert the Teiflings to follow the Absolute, that they would be able to find an accepting home under this new order than that is compelling. Obviously the druids would be wiped out, because there's just no saving them from themselves.
Posted By: Bossk_Hogg Re: Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 19/11/20 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Quote
No evil character would side with the Absolute as it is written right now. Even the Joker, the most iconic example of Chaotic Evil out there, would be trying to get the tadpole out because if he dies to the tadpole he can't make Batman kill him instead.


Really? The tadpole gives you power. That brand + gloves = power. Evil coming to bad end is always the case. If evil characters would never follow paths that lead to bad ends there would be no evil in the Forgotten Realms. The Tav who sells her soul to Asmodius is going to end up living in hell for all eternity but she does so to get more power.


I mean, the evil Tav that doesn't sell their soul is still going to end up in the Nine Hells, Abyss, Tarterus etc. May as well get an early signing bonus and hopefully work your way up the chain so you at least end up as a spinagon or something when you die. Beats starting the real portion of your existence as a lemure or dretch.

Time on the prime (and life in general) is sort of meaningless when the afterlife is a well known reality.
You're probably right Gygax himself would have made the poison insta kill smile

And yes with the afterlife being known you wonder how anyone chooses an evil path. (And yeah, better to get a leg up in the hierarchy) Also makes you wonder how evil organizations recruit in the realms: "Join the Zentarium! It's been __ days since some brave adventurers last burned us to the ground"
Posted By: Verte Re: Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 20/11/20 01:10 AM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
You're probably right Gygax himself would have made the poison insta kill smile

And yes with the afterlife being known you wonder how anyone chooses an evil path. (And yeah, better to get a leg up in the hierarchy) Also makes you wonder how evil organizations recruit in the realms: "Join the Zentarium! It's been __ days since some brave adventurers last burned us to the ground"



Then in small print 'we do not guarantee health insurance'
Quote
Then in small print 'we do not guarantee health insurance'


lol
Posted By: Bossk_Hogg Re: Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 20/11/20 02:59 AM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
You're probably right Gygax himself would have made the poison insta kill smile

And yes with the afterlife being known you wonder how anyone chooses an evil path. (And yeah, better to get a leg up in the hierarchy) Also makes you wonder how evil organizations recruit in the realms: "Join the Zentarium! It's been __ days since some brave adventurers last burned us to the ground"


Likely a fair number choose evil because they think they can beat the odds. They dont think THEY willl end up as a lemure, dretch, larvae, or whatever. No, no, they're imp material at least! Or at least they get a good time in the noob zone before Plus look at what the goody two shoes get for their lifetime of selflessness, sacrifice and toil.... a lantern archon! Some barely sentient ball of light toiling away in the afterlife for the greater good!
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 20/11/20 09:02 AM
Originally Posted by JustAnotherBaldu
Originally Posted by OneManArmy

I think Lolth will not forgive her for betrayal, so when she opens her eyes to the absolute


Who knows? Most people do not seem to know this but Drow atually do not need to have 'red' eyes.
And apparently they only have the red eyes because Lolth favours them in some way for their mentality and actions.
Lolth probably thinks it is cute that a Drow has gone "renegade" but is still acting like an evil, cruel Drow Mistress should. She is a cruel Goddess supporting ill will and manipulation after all.
I think she would be more enraged with Minthara if she suddenly becomes a "surface Races lover" and wants to do good things overall. wink


But yeah Drow can actually lose their red eyes if they denounce Lolth and choose Eilistrae instead.
Very ni~ce if you see a Drow with eyes that are not red it is kinda a seal of proof that they are most trustworthy.
Until the Lolthsworn Drow learn to hide their eyecolor that is.



The ability for the player to make Minthara a cleric of Eilistraee after some drama sounds too fantastic and I'm not sure Larian will be working on such content, but I would be very happy to try this opportunity. For this, it is necessary that the way to get Minthara into the party was not only with the goblin root, she can surrender and offer her help when we help tieflings, for example. I don't think she wants to die when all the other goblins are dead, and the Absolute will punish her even if she survives. This should be followed by some unusual events in the Moonrise Tower, and a lot of dialogue like Viconia to make her neutral.
Posted By: Abits Re: Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 20/11/20 10:36 AM
Seductive evil is well and good trope and the implantation of it in this game is really great (assuming it will go where we think it will - the usege of the absolute powers will have some major consequences down the line). However like I said many times before, choosing to use the absolute powers has nothing to do with the "evil path" directly and to put these two story threads together as a inseparable thing might make the evil path look much better than it actually is, but is just not really what's going on in the game.

About evil in the FR - the more I think about it, the more convinced I become that the FR idea of what is evil and its role in the settings is the silliest thing that ever came out of this setting (and this settings has giant miniature space hamsters)
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 20/11/20 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Really? The tadpole gives you power. That brand + gloves = power. Evil coming to bad end is always the case. If evil characters would never follow paths that lead to bad ends there would be no evil in the Forgotten Realms. The Tav who sells her soul to Asmodius is going to end up living in hell for all eternity but she does so to get more power.


Yes, really. Power you can't use is no power at all.

What the game needs to do is offer a convincing argument that the tadpole is power you can use without it killing you. It could be based on a lie, but the argument needs to be made.
I made two mage characters -- first had the sage background, classic apprenticeship and access to libraries. Spent much of her life thinking about how necromancy corrupts the souls of its practitioners. She had Shadowheart destroy that evil tome right away. (and, interestingly, SH approved)

Second character I imagined as an urchin who only learned magic by stealing tomes. She was able to crawl out of the gutter by using the skills contained in the pages of those books. A lust for knowledge and fear that her power could be taken away is one of pillars of her personality. She knew that opening that book was a bad idea. She knows who Szass Tam is, how he treats other wizards and suspects that the tome might be trap. Spend too much time in those pages and Tam might just use the book as a portal to steal her soul . . .

But those anesthetist eyes drew her in. Perhaps this knowledge could be used for good? After all what would be the harm? Just slip on that one ring flip to another page.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Good outweighs evil, it seems. 75/25 - 21/11/20 08:53 AM
Originally Posted by Stabbey
What the game needs to do is offer a convincing argument that the tadpole is power you can use without it killing you. It could be based on a lie, but the argument needs to be made.

You really want some old graybearded grandfather named dungeonmaster to lead you dont you? :-/

For one, every character that is talking about how tadpole is dangerous and how you can turn every moment ... is just making asumption, that are btw based on rules that clearly dont aply to yourself, since you would be transformed allready!
For two, you have whole goblin camp full of "true souls" and you know about them, that they all have tadpole ... and since they werent on the ship with you, they once again clearly, have it longer than you. And yet, no problem there!
And finaly, when you will use it, there is litteraly not even single sign of any discomfort, or other health problems nor threatening your life. laugh Maybe except one evening of sickness, that is miraculously cured til next morning. laugh

And after all, you can even talk with friendly mind flayer, who clearly tells you that your tadpole is different, and that even he have no idea how this will work, since he didnt ever seen anything simmilar ... who else could give you relevant information, if not their own kind?
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