Larian Studios
I always find it funny that you can make your character as physically appealing as you like, then dump charisma to 8. I think it would be better from a utilization of other classes as well if you enjoy a physically appealing face on your character you may gravitate toward more charisma based characters. My suggestions:

1. Have players first assign stats
2. Pick race as second, because the ability bonuses are supposed to influence AFTER stat assignment
3. Pick class based on minimal scores - a wizard cannot be picked with an intel of 8 (knowing you will get an artifact later to boost your intel - how did you make it through mage school).
4. Customize your appearance based on the final charisma score - could even impact which voice we can pick.

What do you guys think?

Edit: I am aware charisma does not = attractiveness, but attractiveness does impact charisma. I am not suggesting you make characters ugly with a CH of 8, simply the options are slightly restricted compared to one with CH of 17 or 18. That is all. You could have tiers, so that (-1 vs 0 vs +3 >) you have additional options, but clearly its not popular.
I just find that Str, Dex, Con, Intel, and Wis are so much more preferred stats compared to Charisma and this would reward people picking characters with better charisma compared to another STAT. Why would you ever pick a fighter with a charisma of 10, just meta-game and dump it. That is what I don't like in D&D because there is no drawback to dumping charisma stats for characters as most of the time someone else in the party will manage the conversation and persuasion, but a low DEX or constitution impacts every fight.
Doesn't work for me. Most charismatic dictators were ugly as frogs.
No.

Charisma and comeliness are not the same, to the point of them being separate stats back in original DnD. As appearance choices are purely cosmetic and confer no in-game benefits, they should not be keyed off of player stat investment. That's just arbitrarily and unnecessarily limiting player choice.
Adding my no to the pile. Charisma =/ appearance.
It's been a common mistake since the earliest days that CHA is physical attractiveness. It isn't, and never has been. Although appearance might play a part, CHA is personal magnetism and leadership.
lol, sorry OP.

Looking at the thread it looks like everyone dog-piling your suggestion. Just an impression caused by everyone posting the same thing at the same time.
I am all for stats defining visual look (strength - more muscles etc). However, I don’t think charisma = beauty. (I loved BTW how arcanum had both!). A physically ugly or average person can be charismatic, and real hunk can’t be bland and forgettable (see Henry Cavill, a hot piece of bland).
As has been said charisma is a lot more than just physical appearance. How you speak. How you carry yourself.
You all misunderstand the premise. Appearance does impact charisma, but clearly it is not even close to the whole pictures. I am simply saying to restrict some options if your CH is 8 vs 17 or 18. That is all. Could be like 3 tiers. (-1, vs 0 vs >+3)
Sure but appearance and who is hot , ugly, or regular looking are subjective. Someone might be considered good looking by others but I might think he or she isn't all that.
I am not suggesting picking attractive vs ugly options simply, more or less options as a reward for higher charisma.
Originally Posted by Ange
I am not suggesting picking attractive vs ugly options simply, more or less options as a reward for higher charisma.

It's a pointless "reward". Character looks are cosmetic only, npcs in the game react to dialogue choices & roll results, not whatever hair color you've chosen for your toon. Players should be free to choose whatever looks they want for their characters.

I'd rather Larian adds more variety in general, and older faces too.
Originally Posted by ash elemental


I'd rather Larian adds more variety in general, and older faces too.


Sliders and few more options for hair/facial hair
No.
yeah. Sorry OP but I agree with the others in this regard. Beauty is subjective and strictly speaking, you're not promoting a reward, you're promoting a limitation to those that don't want to play high CHA classes (yes, I saw your thread about sorcs smile )

Stats shouldn't reflect the physical appearence of your character as it limits roleplaying.

Edit: Oops, sorry. The sorc request was not yours. Arne and Ange sure look similar at first view though smile
no
No - anyone can look great but be garbage inside, and the reverse is also true.
I'd say it would be more relevant if high charisma ability check bonuses offered alternate conversion choices, but that wouldn't really be fair either because you can say whatever you want in Dnd. The DC is what really prevents a low CHA character from pulling off ridiculous diplomatic choices in a convincing way, not their ability to come up with it.
Please understand, OP, even if you're only suggesting that it should put some kind of lesser restriction or subset on your options, in doing so you would still be saying, ultimately, that visual appearance absolutely IS an essential part of your charisma.... and that is the thing that I think most people here are disagreeing with. It's not essential to being charismatic; it can sure help, but it's not essential... and by making charisma have an impact on your visual options, no matter how minor, you'd be saying that it was.
I'm sorry, I have met plenty of attractive people that I would give a CHR lower than 9.

Also, why do you care how other people play their games? If someone wants to meta and dump INT for the headband, it doesn't affect you.
Just here to echo the countless people who've already responded with a resounding no.
I've met a substantial amount of people who were extremely physically attractive and had all of the charisma of a paper cut on the skin webbing between your thumb and index finger.
Someone being attractive doesn't make them charismatic just because you're drawn to them. That just means that "Standards" and "Self-Respect" were your dump stats.
Originally Posted by Ange
simply, more or less options as a reward for higher charisma.

Nah, that would be silly, especially if applied just for charisma. If you don’t feel that certain features don’t fit high charisma characters played, then just don’t pick them. Having to invest Charisma to have more customisation to choose from would be an annoying and unnecessary limitation.
"He's hot, not charming; there's a difference" - Tulok the Barbarian, 2020.
Ya, no thanks.
Perhaps we could have characters with low charismas picking their noses, scratching their asses, and farting constantly, to make up for the general tendency towards players making their often low-charisma main characters portrayed as handsome/beautiful looking. That will teach 'em!
Now intelligence... I would open to some new [DUMB] dialogue options if the INT is below 10. "Thinking hard. Tav Smash Problems!". But charisma... no
What a charismatic character face might look like (OP version)
[Linked Image]


What a charismatic character face might look like (Game designer version)
[Linked Image]
Although to be honest, absolutely all other charismatic characters face are made perfectly
Originally Posted by Balls
Perhaps we could have characters with low charismas picking their noses, scratching their asses, and farting constantly, to make up for the general tendency towards players making their often low-charisma main characters portrayed as handsome/beautiful looking. That will teach 'em!




even though you surely jest, a low charisma doesn't mean a person can't abide to common socially acceptable behaviour smile
Originally Posted by Balls
Perhaps we could have characters with low charismas picking their noses, scratching their asses, and farting constantly, to make up for the general tendency towards players making their often low-charisma main characters portrayed as handsome/beautiful looking. That will teach 'em!


I've made my low Cha characters be bad at speaking, trip on their words, carelessly insult people, or be brash and unlikeable.
I think the settings in the character creation editor are very difficult to moderate even with this option.
How much charisma would you give this dwarf?
[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I think the settings in the character creation editor are very difficult to moderate even with this option.
How much charisma would you give this dwarf?

-


10 beers
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I think the settings in the character creation editor are very difficult to moderate even with this option.
How much charisma would you give this dwarf?


18


He strikes me as a peacock. A confident male daring to sport a bright pink(or is it purple?) hairdo to seperate him from his peers in the eyes of the indended target. He doesnt crave being in the epicentre of attention but still thinks an eye catcher helps, beside relying on his good looks and charming wit.

If the mentioned dwarf does not identify as a male I do deeply apologise for my assumption.
Short reaction: Please dont.

On the other hand ...
It would be awesome, if charisma rating actualy mirror how NPCs are talking to you ... not how you look exactly, since that is not necesarily related ... but how "it" see you.
You know like: low charisma: Short and factual conversations, seem like wishing to get rid of you ... big charisma: Offering help by themself, maybe even some light flirting ...

But concidering how many text Larian allready inplemented ...
And concidering how many they will need to implement, so that what they allready did dont looks so flat ...

And even imagine how many another work it would be for some characters react on charisma, some on strength, or intellect, or ... nah, dont want to even think about it, some things should stay in tabletop for few more decades. :-/
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I think the settings in the character creation editor are very difficult to moderate even with this option.
How much charisma would you give this dwarf?
[Linked Image]



oh no, I am become all monsters
Yeah, I see your point. I guess I just was thinking it would reward charisma based characters, but everyone just got so offended. It certainly explains why no one has done in that way in another game. hahahah
that is a great point. I like your idea.
Think of it this way: instead of having every attractive character have a Cha of 18, imagine a player describing their edgy protag who is darkly handsome and irresistible to women, and a heartbreaker, etc, only to realise that he has a Cha of 6, and only THINKS that he's the gods gift to women, when in reality he has the personality equivalent of a bag of vomit.
Originally Posted by Verte
Doesn't work for me. Most charismatic dictators were ugly as frogs.


THIS.

It may be true that you make your first opinion on a person on the looks. But realize that this includes styling like clothes, hair and makeup etc. The facial proportions would only affect it if they are either out of the norm or are appealing or disappealing to your own personal preferences.

The moment you initiate a conversation is the moment where your inherent charisma decides where it is going. There are people that may shit talk you but you still "like" them.

What i would like in charactrer greation is an attidude option that limits or affects emotional or facial reactions.

Creating a coldhearted, evil cleric and then seeing him with all those pitiful emotinal reaction is pretty "meh!"
Originally Posted by Dheuster
Now intelligence... I would open to some new [DUMB] dialogue options if the INT is below 10. "Thinking hard. Tav Smash Problems!". But charisma... no


I WANT THAT laugh

wisdom too please.
I think it can be SO much fun.

I would also like some more prejudice. I know that may not be a popular opinon but i really hate that my Dwarf interacts with gobs llike with any other race.

Drow already have some of that.
It's an interesting concept for sure. I'm not sure how to implement it though (which might mean it's perfect for a Larian game lol)
I know that charisma and physical appearance are two different things. But then again it's a well known psychological fact that beautiful people tend to have it easier in coversations and social interactions. At least during the initial interaction.
In the long run a charismatic but not so good looking character is going to win over a beautiful a-hole, especially when it comes to things as leadership, or just finding his place in a group that is forced together by unforeseen circumstances.
But as long as the beautiful person isn't completely inept at making coversation I thinkt hat he/she will have it easier to, lets say, convince a stranger he/she just met to tell him or her the latest rumours, or get the merchant to lower the price a bit on that piece of armor you're looking to buy.
And if you look like a troglodyte your 18 charisma is going to have a hard time compensating for that "first impression" thing. Strangers may turn away from you even before you get the chance to charm them with your silver tongue.

While I don't agree with OP's suggestion to have the charisma stat to impact your face options during character creation. Maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to add a stat for physical appearance as well and have that stat affect your interactions somewhat. (not going to happen, I know. But still).
And in a world where there are other intelligent being other than humans the phrase "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is even more true. Who knows what a Beholder perceives as beatuy smile And taking every race perceived notion of beauty in to account during interaction will be a not so easy undertaking.
Originally Posted by Evandir
I'd say it would be more relevant if high charisma ability check bonuses offered alternate conversion choices, but that wouldn't really be fair either because you can say whatever you want in Dnd. The DC is what really prevents a low CHA character from pulling off ridiculous diplomatic choices in a convincing way, not their ability to come up with it.


Intelligence and wisdom should also count to offer options. I mean charisma is how you say things and has to do with persuasion, but wisdom and intelligence might help to say things that make more sense to the other person, hence, lowering the roll difficulty. But I do undestand how that might be too much work and limiting to some players. I think charisma is covered by the persuasion and deceive rolls.
I don't think that the character creation should be limited at all.
I do however think that seduction should be part of persuasion at certain points.

I kinda feel like it's very limiting both in terms of the fantasy of my character and also just thematically that it's always either intimidate someone, trick someone in a really basic way or talk down to someone and explain things to them like they're a child who can't figure out simple things on their own to convince them.
It feels a bit especially silly in games when you basically convince the villain that they're wrong by essentially just saying '' you're wrong, and what you're doing is bad '' and then they act like they've never considered that before lol.
I can't think of any good examples of this really where it makes actual sense, usually there's not much depth at all to persuasion in games.


It'd especially be cool with seduction if you could build up a relationship and trust with someone only for that reason that they genuinely believe in and then you just use them to progress, so something that you could build on over time and sorta condition the NPC into being easily persuaded through seduction.
Kagha could be an example of this, maybe one way or making her switch sides could be to seduce her and build a relationship with her over time and then you start making suggestions and convincing her into things more and more like letting the Tieflings stay etc.
Sorta gradually manipulating her by pulling on her heartstrings instead of just '' hurr durr, u evil staph being evil ''.
Originally Posted by Svalr
I don't think that the character creation should be limited at all.
I do however think that seduction should be part of persuasion at certain points.

I kinda feel like it's very limiting both in terms of the fantasy of my character and also just thematically that it's always either intimidate someone, trick someone in a really basic way or talk down to someone and explain things to them like they're a child who can't figure out simple things on their own to convince them.
It feels a bit especially silly in games when you basically convince the villain that they're wrong by essentially just saying '' you're wrong, and what you're doing is bad '' and then they act like they've never considered that before lol.
I can't think of any good examples of this really where it makes actual sense, usually there's not much depth at all to persuasion in games.


It'd especially be cool with seduction if you could build up a relationship and trust with someone only for that reason that they genuinely believe in and then you just use them to progress, so something that you could build on over time and sorta condition the NPC into being easily persuaded through seduction.
Kagha could be an example of this, maybe one way or making her switch sides could be to seduce her and build a relationship with her over time and then you start making suggestions and convincing her into things more and more like letting the Tieflings stay etc.
Sorta gradually manipulating her by pulling on her heartstrings instead of just '' hurr durr, u evil staph being evil ''.


that's a really cool idea. I do see a problem with the implementation though. A gradual seduction takes time. I get the feeling that act 1 spans just over a few days, maybe two weeks tops.
Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
Originally Posted by Svalr
I don't think that the character creation should be limited at all.
I do however think that seduction should be part of persuasion at certain points.

I kinda feel like it's very limiting both in terms of the fantasy of my character and also just thematically that it's always either intimidate someone, trick someone in a really basic way or talk down to someone and explain things to them like they're a child who can't figure out simple things on their own to convince them.
It feels a bit especially silly in games when you basically convince the villain that they're wrong by essentially just saying '' you're wrong, and what you're doing is bad '' and then they act like they've never considered that before lol.
I can't think of any good examples of this really where it makes actual sense, usually there's not much depth at all to persuasion in games.


It'd especially be cool with seduction if you could build up a relationship and trust with someone only for that reason that they genuinely believe in and then you just use them to progress, so something that you could build on over time and sorta condition the NPC into being easily persuaded through seduction.
Kagha could be an example of this, maybe one way or making her switch sides could be to seduce her and build a relationship with her over time and then you start making suggestions and convincing her into things more and more like letting the Tieflings stay etc.
Sorta gradually manipulating her by pulling on her heartstrings instead of just '' hurr durr, u evil staph being evil ''.


that's a really cool idea. I do see a problem with the implementation though. A gradual seduction takes time. I get the feeling that act 1 spans just over a few days, maybe two weeks tops.



Yeah that's true, I was just trying to think of an example on the spot xD.
I guess the gradual seduction would be more of a thing for characters that are more story relevant, while you could also have smaller scale seduction like getting past doors for example or making someone lower their guard so you can get up close and stab them in the back ( maybe for Rogues only? ).
It could even be used against the Companions too, like maybe instead of getting into an actual relationship you could be more sneaky and manipulative about it and make them reveal things.
It could even have consequences down the line when they realize what you're doing.

With Kagha perhaps a better example would be with making her let the Tiefling child go, like use your charms in a more sensual way rather than just trying to appeal to her '' humanity '' if you get what I mean.
Play into her corruption instead of trying to drag her back away from it.
Originally Posted by Svalr
Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
Originally Posted by Svalr
I don't think that the character creation should be limited at all.
I do however think that seduction should be part of persuasion at certain points.

I kinda feel like it's very limiting both in terms of the fantasy of my character and also just thematically that it's always either intimidate someone, trick someone in a really basic way or talk down to someone and explain things to them like they're a child who can't figure out simple things on their own to convince them.
It feels a bit especially silly in games when you basically convince the villain that they're wrong by essentially just saying '' you're wrong, and what you're doing is bad '' and then they act like they've never considered that before lol.
I can't think of any good examples of this really where it makes actual sense, usually there's not much depth at all to persuasion in games.


It'd especially be cool with seduction if you could build up a relationship and trust with someone only for that reason that they genuinely believe in and then you just use them to progress, so something that you could build on over time and sorta condition the NPC into being easily persuaded through seduction.
Kagha could be an example of this, maybe one way or making her switch sides could be to seduce her and build a relationship with her over time and then you start making suggestions and convincing her into things more and more like letting the Tieflings stay etc.
Sorta gradually manipulating her by pulling on her heartstrings instead of just '' hurr durr, u evil staph being evil ''.


that's a really cool idea. I do see a problem with the implementation though. A gradual seduction takes time. I get the feeling that act 1 spans just over a few days, maybe two weeks tops.



Yeah that's true, I was just trying to think of an example on the spot xD.
I guess the gradual seduction would be more of a thing for characters that are more story relevant, while you could also have smaller scale seduction like getting past doors for example or making someone lower their guard so you can get up close and stab them in the back ( maybe for Rogues only? ).
It could even be used against the Companions too, like maybe instead of getting into an actual relationship you could be more sneaky and manipulative about it and make them reveal things.
It could even have consequences down the line when they realize what you're doing.

With Kagha perhaps a better example would be with making her let the Tiefling child go, like use your charms in a more sensual way rather than just trying to appeal to her '' humanity '' if you get what I mean.
Play into her corruption instead of trying to drag her back away from it.


+1
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