Larian Studios
Posted By: Saturdiva Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 01:05 AM
So I'm creating a character to try the new patch with, and something has come up that came up with the first character I created, but I moved past it.

All the options for female elf heads have Caucasian features.

There are other racial options for other races, but literally all the female elves look Caucasian -- even changing skin tone, it's not really possible to make a female elf have features common to people of African, East/Southeast Asian, Indigenous, or Latinx descent.

I know that to some this might seem like a nitpick, and honestly, I really hesitated before bringing this up. I thought of it with the first character I created, but I know that things like this can create static sometimes, and people can get defensive / offended.

And I'm not trying to make anyone feel any type of way.

It's just the fact that growing up a brown geek girl, I didn't get to see many heroes who looked like me. I felt lucky if I got to see a female protagonist in the books, movies, and TV shows I was interested in.

It's weird not to see yourself reflected anywhere.

There's this amazing quote by the Dominican-American author, Junot Diaz, about representation:

[i]"You know how vampires have no reflections in the mirror?" the Pulitzer Prize-winning author asked. "If you want to make a human being a monster, deny them, at the cultural level, any reflection of themselves.

"And growing up, I felt like a monster in some ways. I didn’t see myself reflected at all. I was like, ‘Yo, is something wrong with me?’ That the whole society seems to think that people like me don’t exist? And part of what inspired me was this deep desire, that before I died, I would make a couple of mirrors. That I would make some mirrors, so that kids like me might see themselves reflected back and might not feel so monstrous for it."[/i]

This quote resonated with me so hard; as a weird kid from a messed up home who listened to weird music and was into weird things, it made me even weirder that I was brown. The stories I escaped in were almost always about kids like me -- isolated, broken, difficult homes, different than others, but they ended up being special in some way. They ended up finding magic in some way. They ended up escaping and growing and becoming magic themselves in some way.

They were always white.

It's different with books though -- most of the time, authors don't put so much emphasis on describing characters' physicalities in such exacting detail that you can't imagine them a little more how you want to see them. And in the end, you connect with the characters that someone else created because despite the cultural or racial differences, there's still this very deep, important, fundamental thread of connection that makes that character resonate with you on a level just as profound as race, as culture, as ethnicity.

And on TV and in movies, again, I was grateful to see girls start to kick butt sometimes, to wield swords, to save the day.

But again, they were mostly white.

Sometimes it feels hard to explain why this matters to people who haven't experienced it. When you've lived your whole life in a world where the heroes look like you, talk like you (or like your ancestors), sound like you, have similar cultural experiences to you, most likely, you've never considered what it might be like to live in the absence of those heroes. And that's natural; that's normal.

And this has been slowly changing over time, but for the most part, the heroes and heroines in high fantasy tend to be on the paler side of things.

And I'm not mad at that. I can invest just as fully in a white character with a posh British accent as any other (lol, I mean, some of my favorite characters are white with British accents :D).

But also, when playing a video game in the RPG genre, it's a unique opportunity to live out a certain type of fantasy -- to create and be the hero of your imagination, to inhabit a world made of magic in a body, with a face, that reflects whatever ideal (or anti-ideal!) you want.

Elves, in general, have always been a source of fascination to me. There are so many interpretations of them across so many texts and media, but one consistent theme is that they're these immortal, otherworldly, almost transcendent beings, made of magic, light of hand and foot, graceful, dexterous, with something elegant to them no matter how roguish or Drow-ish. At least, that's how they live in my imagination.

So rarely do people of color get to see themselves in such elegant roles.

I love playing elves -- I play other races, too, but elves are usually near the top of the list in terms of order.

So it's kind of disappointing and disheartening to see that it's not possible to play a female elf whose face isn't a reflection of Caucasian standards of beauty / Caucasian features, but rather shows someone who looks a little more like me -- Latinx, North African, a mix of ingredients that don't reflect the thin, petite noses and wide, round eyes of white female beauty, but rather a different kind of beauty... one just as capable of elven grace and dexterity and mastery of magic.

There are some gorgeous, diverse faces across the other races available for play, but those faces are not available for a female elf of any kind -- or even a half-elf. And that's really, really disappointing -- and I'm not sure why it is. Why can Tieflings, humans, dwarves, and halflings have features that resemble those of other races, but not elves?

I'm hoping that in the future, more options will be added to the female elven faces available to reflect greater diversity and allow everyone to be able to enjoy the fantasy of being an elven hero.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.
You lost me at "Latinx."
Why?
I fully support a greater range of racial diversity. I would also like just... more variety with the elves in general. 3 of the heads look almost the same? I'm hispanic and have a small round face and would like some options that even vaguely reflect that. A couple of the dwarven faces come close but they look super white/irish. (I'm half Scottish and my mom looked like that but I don't lol.)

I think one of the elven heads at least looks east Asian.

Really, this is why we need sliders and head parts. I like how well the heads are crafted but the problem is that without sliders they will only ever cover a very narrow range of people.

I also think there should be more options for hair types. Most of the hair available is very straight. More wavy, curly, and afro-centric hair would be very welcome. (Even if it comes later down the line--Animal Crossing got around to it and I'm so happy with those devs!)
The fact that they are all apparently scanned off real people probably tells you something about the diversity level in the office lol.

If it was handled via sliders, this would mainly come down to controlling the height of the bridge of the nose, since that is what creates the epicanthic fold around the eyes in an actual human skull. The next most important slider would be for controlling cheekbone height.

They're probably not going to get at the levels of diversity desired by just scanning, unless they are scanning like hundreds of heads. Which they could also do I suppose. But it seems like it'd be simpler to start with basic skull shapes, or at least try find models that demonstrate more of the variety we see out in the world. So they don't end up exacerbating the issue by scanning in a bunch of real heads that just end up looking essentially the same as what they already have. Everything vaguely described with reference to geography or race is better understood with reference to the human skeleton and skull. Sure cephalometry isn't like a real deal science, but its useful for artists and illustrators. Associating the skeleton/skull or facial features in general with ethnicity or race is pretty sketchy territory and has a very fraught history. Its easier to talk about it in terms of abstract structures like just the basic shapes of the bones where the cartilage attaches, more the way its done in forensic anthropology. Since that's what's really going on anyway.

To be specific, what is missing from the female elves right now would be more skulls with a wider nasal aperture=lower bridge, more distinctly rectangular or circular shaped orbits, wider set jaws=lower cheekbones, and more variety in the shape/width of the teeth. Which is just another way to say that simply adding more hairstyles or darker colors to the skin tone palette isn't exactly doing the trick hehe.

One of the reasons facial sliders usually suck in other games is because they don't take into consideration how features relate to each other and the underlying structure, but instead treat them all independently like its Mr Potato head.

The various/diverse facial features we recognize that aren't just melanin on the surface are mostly down to the skull. The female elf skulls right now all have what would be called "European" skull features, at least by 19th century standards. Narrow nasal apertures, aviator orbits, and narrow jaws=high cheekbones. You know, like its Vogue magazine (for most of its history), just with really long and pointy ears hehe.

If scanning real people, would be nice to see them put in a bit more effort during the next round of casting calls.

Posted By: Braxton Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 08:34 AM
Agreed, there's nothing lost by adding a greater diversity of character models and appearances and so much gained.
Also, what's the purpose of restricting certain faces to only one of the available D&D races?

Like they go through all this effort to scan a human face and fashion a 3d model out of it, but then make it available only for Humans, or only Halflings, or only Dwarves? It seems highly inefficient, and a bit of a waste. Its kind of annoying as well, how everything in the appearance menu resets if you decide to switch from say an Elf to a Half-Elf midway through the char creation process. I get that heads can be subbed in rather easily with Mods, but why not just have every face available to every D&D race by default?

Sure Gith are oddballs, but we know those aren't just 1:1 scans of real people. Even there, the game could just Githyankify whatever basic face model you chose by giving them a snub nose and gaping maw. You know, the way long ears are tacked on for Elves, or horns tacked on for Tiefs. All the faces for all the races just seems like it would be a way better use of the art work their modelers have already done.

Like the OP mentioned...

Originally Posted by Saturdiva


There are some gorgeous, diverse faces across the other races available for play, but those faces are not available for a female elf of any kind -- or even a half-elf. And that's really, really disappointing -- and I'm not sure why it is. Why can Tieflings, humans, dwarves, and halflings have features that resemble those of other races, but not elves?


If the head model already exists, we should just be able to use it for any of the D&D races available in the game.


Hard disagree, sorry. Elves traditionally have features most reminiscent of Caucasian faces (maybe with a dash of Asian features) and introducing other ethnicities would make them seem even more "humans with pointy ears" than they already are. However, I think elves should have mostly elven features, that is alien and non-human, rather just pointy ears slapped on a Caucasian face. Imo non-human races shouldn't reflect human ethnicities, and certainly not a 1-1 mapping of all of them. In-game humans and half-humans, sure, why not.
Traditional according to what tradition though? Like an Alan Lee painting? D&D illustrations from the 1970s? The imps from Shakespeare or German folktales? Tall ethereal things so white they're glowing, like the Tuatha de Danann of Ireland? In Tolkien they don't even have pointy ears. The tradition is all over the place.

In any event we're still talking custom character options here right? Not changing the look of a prominant Elf companion, or the majority of Elf NPCs we encounter. So it really only affects the protagonist. Many people are just going to want a PC that looks like an idealized version of themselves. Still others are just going to play as an Elf for metagaming reasons, because they want dark vision or a bonus cantrip or whatever, not because they want to look like an alien Vulcan per se. For Tav the more options the better.

The OPs concerns are legimate, and anyway what's a few more head models really, when anyone who doesn't like what they're seeing can just skip to the next head like Mombi?

I've made a couple dozen toons for BG3, but have probably used the same couple faces every time. Its all mirror mirror on the wall isn't it? Just with a different haircut lol.

I don't know, I just can't see the harm. As noted they've already gone all-in for the 'Elves are just humans with pointy ears' aesthetic, so they might as well take it to its logical conclusion.

Originally Posted by Black_Elk

In any event we're still talking custom character options here right? Not changing the look of a prominant Elf companion, or the majority of Elf NPCs we encounter. So it really only affects the protagonist. Many people are just going to want a PC that looks like an idealized version of themselves. Still others are just going to play as an Elf for metagaming reasons, because they want dark vision or a bonus cantrip or whatever, not because they want to look like an alien Vulcan per se. For Tav the more options the better.

This. So much.
Originally Posted by Black_Elk

I don't know, I just can't see the harm. As noted they've already gone all-in for the 'Elves are just humans with pointy ears' aesthetic, so they might as well take it to its logical conclusion.

+1
Right on, glad that made sense.

But just to indulge Uncle Lester's points a bit, if they wanted to go with the Alien Elf look, like say more Elrond from the 80s Hobbit cartoon, rather than Elrond from the Peter Jackson LotR films, they'd need to completely change the shape of the underlying skull. Basically compressing and elongating the lower part of the skull like an El Greco painting.

A freakishly narrow chin and jaw giving extremely high cheekbones, triangular shaped orbitals for the eyesockets, and a very narrow nasal aperture. But they clearly did not go that direction with their aesthetic at all, otherwise our elves would look much more like the Gith do currently than anything a normal Human skull would produce.
To the OP, thank you for sharing your insights and suggestions.

Speaking freely, I'm not sure where I stand on this; on the one hand, I wouldn't wish to limit someone's enjoyment of the game and I agree with one of the posters above, I can't see the harm. We play these games to role play after all and that is inherently a unique perspective to us all. Personally I don't care for seeing my visual characteristics represented in the characters I make, other than their personalities but I appreciate that is just my own opinion and basically irrelevant.

On the other hand I'm a bit torn on the subject of elves. As far as I know, and I am happy to be corrected on this by the many people here with far more knowledge on the matter, that elves are generally portrayed as having ethereal features, in that they look really quite different from humans? And we are talking DnD elves here, so although they are inspired by myth and Tolkien, etc. it seems appropriate to use the DnD portrayal of Elves as reference?

In conclusion, it wouldn't really bother me other than from a purely 'traditional' sense, which again, is probably irrelevant.

To digress, if anything at the moment I find the Elven heads, particularly the male ones, far too human looking with chiselled jaws etc.



Posted By: Eldath Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 11:40 AM
Originally Posted by Saturdiva


All the options for female elf heads have Caucasian features. There are other racial options for other races, but literally all the female elves look Caucasian -- even changing skin tone, it's not really possible to make a female elf have features common to people of African, East/Southeast Asian, Indigenous, or Latinx descent.


Elves arose from the myths and legends of people with caucasian features, so them having caucasian/european features is just natural and normal. Insisting that elves should somehow conform to our modern sensibilities about race and ethnicity is like drawing a fedora and shades on the Mona Lisa and putting a joint in her mouth so that she is more cool.

Originally Posted by Saturdiva


It's weird not to see yourself reflected anywhere.


You aren't supposed to see yourself reflected in a completely different species tbh. Just imagine how messed up would it be if someone saw themselves reflected in a gnome or a lizardfolk. The only reason you bring up elves because they are the pretty race. and everybody wants to be pretty.

Originally Posted by Saturdiva


There's this amazing quote by the Dominican-American author, Junot Diaz, about representation:

"You know how vampires have no reflections in the mirror?" the Pulitzer Prize-winning author asked. "If you want to make a human being a monster, deny them, at the cultural level, any reflection of themselves.

"And growing up, I felt like a monster in some ways. I didn’t see myself reflected at all. I was like, ‘Yo, is something wrong with me?’ That the whole society seems to think that people like me don’t exist? And part of what inspired me was this deep desire, that before I died, I would make a couple of mirrors. That I would make some mirrors, so that kids like me might see themselves reflected back and might not feel so monstrous for it."


This quote resonated with me so hard; as a weird kid from a messed up home who listened to weird music and was into weird things, it made me even weirder that I was brown. The stories I escaped in were almost always about kids like me -- isolated, broken, difficult homes, different than others, but they ended up being special in some way. They ended up finding magic in some way. They ended up escaping and growing and becoming magic themselves in some way.


That quote is messed up. No-one should seek to judge himself or herself based on external validation of fallible human beings. You are who you are and you should learn to be happy with who you are regardless of what the world thinks. If you seek validation from outside you will never be happy because most people will never care for you, no matter who you are.

Originally Posted by Saturdiva

But also, when playing a video game in the RPG genre, it's a unique opportunity to live out a certain type of fantasy -- to create and be the hero of your imagination, to inhabit a world made of magic in a body, with a face, that reflects whatever ideal (or anti-ideal!) you want.


Then why do you want to live out your reality in a game? It's like you treat your own life as a fantasy that has no place in reality. If you really believe this, then for your own sake, you must change it. You should be able to be who you are IRL, and if anyone's stopping you it's probably you.

Originally Posted by Saturdiva

I'm hoping that in the future, more options will be added to the female elven faces available to reflect greater diversity and allow everyone to be able to enjoy the fantasy of being an elven hero.

Elves are already incredibly diverse as it is. If you need a skin color change and a different nose structure to enjoy being an elven hero... well excuse me but that's just very shallow.
You enjoy being an elven hero because of the history behind elven culture, which some games can write pretty well. It's not about looks, never was.
Originally Posted by Saturdiva
So I'm creating a character to try the new patch with, and something has come up that came up with the first character I created, but I moved past it.

All the options for female elf heads have Caucasian features.

There are other racial options for other races, but literally all the female elves look Caucasian -- even changing skin tone, it's not really possible to make a female elf have features common to people of African, East/Southeast Asian, Indigenous, or Latinx descent.

I know that to some this might seem like a nitpick, and honestly, I really hesitated before bringing this up. I thought of it with the first character I created, but I know that things like this can create static sometimes, and people can get defensive / offended.

And I'm not trying to make anyone feel any type of way.

It's just the fact that growing up a brown geek girl, I didn't get to see many heroes who looked like me. I felt lucky if I got to see a female protagonist in the books, movies, and TV shows I was interested in.

It's weird not to see yourself reflected anywhere.

There's this amazing quote by the Dominican-American author, Junot Diaz, about representation:

"You know how vampires have no reflections in the mirror?" the Pulitzer Prize-winning author asked. "If you want to make a human being a monster, deny them, at the cultural level, any reflection of themselves.

"And growing up, I felt like a monster in some ways. I didn’t see myself reflected at all. I was like, ‘Yo, is something wrong with me?’ That the whole society seems to think that people like me don’t exist? And part of what inspired me was this deep desire, that before I died, I would make a couple of mirrors. That I would make some mirrors, so that kids like me might see themselves reflected back and might not feel so monstrous for it."


This quote resonated with me so hard; as a weird kid from a messed up home who listened to weird music and was into weird things, it made me even weirder that I was brown. The stories I escaped in were almost always about kids like me -- isolated, broken, difficult homes, different than others, but they ended up being special in some way. They ended up finding magic in some way. They ended up escaping and growing and becoming magic themselves in some way.

They were always white.

It's different with books though -- most of the time, authors don't put so much emphasis on describing characters' physicalities in such exacting detail that you can't imagine them a little more how you want to see them. And in the end, you connect with the characters that someone else created because despite the cultural or racial differences, there's still this very deep, important, fundamental thread of connection that makes that character resonate with you on a level just as profound as race, as culture, as ethnicity.

And on TV and in movies, again, I was grateful to see girls start to kick butt sometimes, to wield swords, to save the day.

But again, they were mostly white.

Sometimes it feels hard to explain why this matters to people who haven't experienced it. When you've lived your whole life in a world where the heroes look like you, talk like you (or like your ancestors), sound like you, have similar cultural experiences to you, most likely, you've never considered what it might be like to live in the absence of those heroes. And that's natural; that's normal.

And this has been slowly changing over time, but for the most part, the heroes and heroines in high fantasy tend to be on the paler side of things.

And I'm not mad at that. I can invest just as fully in a white character with a posh British accent as any other (lol, I mean, some of my favorite characters are white with British accents :D).

But also, when playing a video game in the RPG genre, it's a unique opportunity to live out a certain type of fantasy -- to create and be the hero of your imagination, to inhabit a world made of magic in a body, with a face, that reflects whatever ideal (or anti-ideal!) you want.

Elves, in general, have always been a source of fascination to me. There are so many interpretations of them across so many texts and media, but one consistent theme is that they're these immortal, otherworldly, almost transcendent beings, made of magic, light of hand and foot, graceful, dexterous, with something elegant to them no matter how roguish or Drow-ish. At least, that's how they live in my imagination.

So rarely do people of color get to see themselves in such elegant roles.

I love playing elves -- I play other races, too, but elves are usually near the top of the list in terms of order.

So it's kind of disappointing and disheartening to see that it's not possible to play a female elf whose face isn't a reflection of Caucasian standards of beauty / Caucasian features, but rather shows someone who looks a little more like me -- Latinx, North African, a mix of ingredients that don't reflect the thin, petite noses and wide, round eyes of white female beauty, but rather a different kind of beauty... one just as capable of elven grace and dexterity and mastery of magic.

There are some gorgeous, diverse faces across the other races available for play, but those faces are not available for a female elf of any kind -- or even a half-elf. And that's really, really disappointing -- and I'm not sure why it is. Why can Tieflings, humans, dwarves, and halflings have features that resemble those of other races, but not elves?

I'm hoping that in the future, more options will be added to the female elven faces available to reflect greater diversity and allow everyone to be able to enjoy the fantasy of being an elven hero.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.



This is a beautiful post. You got me with this one. I understand now more than ever before why this issue is important. I'm sure there are many, many people who feel as you do, so thanks for taking the time to give voice to their perspective.

Anyone who comes along with that "I don't see why it's a big deal anyway" or "hurr durr SJW agenda" or the usual crap that people post when someone kindly asks for some more representative appearance options for non-white people in video games is already pre-emptively shut down by this great original post.

Let's keep this on the first page.
Originally Posted by Tzelanit
You lost me at "Latinx."



okay boomer
Posted By: Eldath Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies



This is a beautiful post. You got me with this one. I understand now more than ever before why this issue is important. I'm sure there are many, many people who feel as you do, so thanks for taking the time to give voice to their perspective.

Anyone who comes along with that "I don't see why it's a big deal anyway" or "hurr durr SJW agenda" or the usual crap that people post when someone kindly asks for some more representative appearance options for non-white people in video games is already pre-emptively shut down by this great original post.

Let's keep this on the first page.


But we already have racial options... My problem is not the SJW agenda, my problem is that you guys are once again unironically turning all other races into humans.

HUMANS ARE DIVERSE THEREFORE ELVES MUST ALSO BE DIVERSE EXACTLY THE SAME WAY HUMANS ARE DIVERSE!
And I just disagree with the statement above. Elves are their own species. You just want to impose your very specific idea about diversity on another species to make yourself feel better about the issue.
At this point I just think elves should look a bit more pixie-like to hammer home the point that they are not human so people stop treating them as human.
Originally Posted by Eldath
Originally Posted by Saturdiva


All the options for female elf heads have Caucasian features. There are other racial options for other races, but literally all the female elves look Caucasian -- even changing skin tone, it's not really possible to make a female elf have features common to people of African, East/Southeast Asian, Indigenous, or Latinx descent.


Elves arose from the myths and legends of people with caucasian features, so them having caucasian/european features is just natural and normal. Insisting that elves should somehow conform to our modern sensibilities about race and ethnicity is like drawing a fedora and shades on the Mona Lisa and putting a joint in her mouth so that she is more cool.

Originally Posted by Saturdiva


It's weird not to see yourself reflected anywhere.


You aren't supposed to see yourself reflected in a completely different species tbh. Just imagine how messed up would it be if someone saw themselves reflected in a gnome or a lizardfolk. The only reason you bring up elves because they are the pretty race. and everybody wants to be pretty.

Originally Posted by Saturdiva


There's this amazing quote by the Dominican-American author, Junot Diaz, about representation:

"You know how vampires have no reflections in the mirror?" the Pulitzer Prize-winning author asked. "If you want to make a human being a monster, deny them, at the cultural level, any reflection of themselves.

"And growing up, I felt like a monster in some ways. I didn’t see myself reflected at all. I was like, ‘Yo, is something wrong with me?’ That the whole society seems to think that people like me don’t exist? And part of what inspired me was this deep desire, that before I died, I would make a couple of mirrors. That I would make some mirrors, so that kids like me might see themselves reflected back and might not feel so monstrous for it."


This quote resonated with me so hard; as a weird kid from a messed up home who listened to weird music and was into weird things, it made me even weirder that I was brown. The stories I escaped in were almost always about kids like me -- isolated, broken, difficult homes, different than others, but they ended up being special in some way. They ended up finding magic in some way. They ended up escaping and growing and becoming magic themselves in some way.


That quote is messed up. No-one should seek to judge himself or herself based on external validation of fallible human beings. You are who you are and you should learn to be happy with who you are regardless of what the world thinks. If you seek validation from outside you will never be happy because most people will never care for you, no matter who you are.

Originally Posted by Saturdiva

But also, when playing a video game in the RPG genre, it's a unique opportunity to live out a certain type of fantasy -- to create and be the hero of your imagination, to inhabit a world made of magic in a body, with a face, that reflects whatever ideal (or anti-ideal!) you want.


Then why do you want to live out your reality in a game? It's like you treat your own life as a fantasy that has no place in reality. If you really believe this, then for your own sake, you must change it. You should be able to be who you are IRL, and if anyone's stopping you it's probably you.

Originally Posted by Saturdiva

I'm hoping that in the future, more options will be added to the female elven faces available to reflect greater diversity and allow everyone to be able to enjoy the fantasy of being an elven hero.

Elves are already incredibly diverse as it is. If you need a skin color change and a different nose structure to enjoy being an elven hero... well excuse me but that's just very shallow.
You enjoy being an elven hero because of the history behind elven culture, which some games can write pretty well. It's not about looks, never was.

lmao this is so cringe keep posting.
Posted By: Eldath Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 11:56 AM
I think the very idea is cringe so there you go lol.
Posted By: Dexai Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 11:57 AM
As a Swede, I am hardly unbiased on the issue. Scandinavian history, folklore, and mythology hardly ever gets any serious representation (just look at what they've done to my beautiful trolls) and is often regarded with contempt, ridicule, and looked down the nose on (see anything that includes "Vikings"). Anything that makes elves more generic than they already are will make me feel sad about it.

And I'm not saying DnD elves aren't already genericified to hell. They are, and I dislike that. So yeah, I basically balance back and fro between being sad about that and this opinion:
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
I don't know, I just can't see the harm. As noted they've already gone all-in for the 'Elves are just humans with pointy ears' aesthetic, so they might as well take it to its logical conclusion.
Posted By: Niara Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 12:37 PM
To be honest, I just find the character creator to be woefully limited and lacking as is... and it's been disheartening for me to hear Larian talk about how great it is and how in depth and expansive it is, when really, actually, it's positively pitiful compared to what it ought to be. They've commented to champion how it's the most detailed and in-depth character creation system they've ever put forward, and while that may be true that only really says negative things about them than it does anything even remotely positive.

I don't want to get bogged down in discussions of ethnicity particularly - the overall truth is that the character creator truly does need to be much, much better than it is.
Much as I’d love to see more customisation, at this stage I’d happily trade that for more available races. Even introducing Dragonborn, a PHB race, is going to be a lot of work. And there are so many more they could add, which would give the game a lot of variety (aasimar, tabaxi, tortles, genasi would all be high on my list)
Posted By: Eldath Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 12:49 PM
I think the character creation is by and large pretty good. Also mods will solve many of the cosmetic issues with this game, and Larian expect modders to come up with several versions of BG3 as it was stated in the last interview.
Oh, Eldath. The degree to which you "just don't get it" on this issue is staggering. I have a lot of arguments jumping around in my head right now, but really I am not the person best qualified to make them. I hope that the original poster comes back to the thread and drops some education on this joint.

See, I grew up in a world where practically every person represented (ESPECIALLY the "good guys") in any form of media, folklore, fiction, legendry (possibly that's not a word, also possibly it means the same thing as 'folklore', but I'm including it anyway), and art looked basically just like me and my parents. As our worldviews, perspectives, and personalities are mostly NOT created by us consciously out of thin air, but instead are SHAPED by billions of tiny, accumulative influences throughout our lives (especially our childhood), seeing and hearing about "all white people, all the time" guided me into certain ideas. It did this quite invisibly, making it seem to my brain like everything I thought about the world was just "common sense" or "obvious", and not a particular narrow perspective based almost entirely on all of these specific influences during my childhood. So, to me, growing up in that world, it just "made sense" that everything related to whiteness was "normal", that it was the default, that it wasn't one of a myriad of equally important varieties of humanity and culture, but simply the baseline standard to which all other, more "exotic" forms and ideas are compared against as being the "different" thing. The Other thing.

This is part of what is meant when people talk about "white privilege", which is not a topic I am expert on so I won't go into it other than to say that I definitely have it, and I definitely didn't KNOW I had it for a good long portion of my life. But for me it was the privilege of seeing myself and my family represented everywhere, all the time, and painted as the heroes, the visionaries, the builders, the geniuses, the trailblazers, the leaders, and the just plain NORMAL people. So I never had to feel like an Other. I never had to feel like I wasn't valuable to my society. I never had to feel the sting of people actively hating me or discriminating against me or making crude stereotyping jokes at my expense, just because of the genetic variety of human that I happened to (through no doing of my own) be born as.

I never had to worry about whether or not the cops were going to just shoot me for no reason.

Because I was the default. I was normal. I was the standard by which everything ELSE was measured.

Whenever people of color, or people of any other marginalized group ask for more representation, it's not just about them "feeling better about themselves", or being "shallow", or whatever other out-of-touch tripe was expressed upthread. It's also, among many other things, about the world we ALL live in, and how it influences everyone, how it shapes every child's mind into the kind of adults they will become. And how it CONTINUES to mold us, guide us, infectiously mutate our worldview on an ongoing, relentless basis. You may think you're just personally manufacturing all of your own ideas from whole cloth, but I promise you that you are not. None of us are. And so things like representation do have a very real effect on how everyone sees the world, and their fellow human beings. If you have a world in which whiteness and all things associated with it remain the default, remain the definition of "normal", and everything else is Other, then it is INEVITABLE that racism, prejudice, discrimination, and yes, even the murder of black people by the police will be present.

And as much as I can sit here and type words about all of this, the fact is I can't ever REALLY understand. Because I haven't had to live in that "Other" world. So I don't even know what it feels like, beyond what I've heard from people about their lives. But we don't have to share someone's experiences to have sympathy for their pains.

So maybe, just MAYBE, when someone who has faced struggles you know nothing of kindly asks (or even if they ask UN-kindly) for a few minor changes to the way that our culture continues to be formed, asks for such a tiny thing as to be able to see THEIR kind of people in video games more, the usual suspects might consider sitting this one out before they immediately jump in and start disagreeing or making tangential arguments that distract from the actual point. Leave that "actually, I think that ALL lives matter" flavor of statement (not that anyone here is talking about that, but it's cut from the same cloth) where they belong: in the silent vault of your own mind.


This isn't just to Eldath, by the way. It's to everyone who pops up every time one of these threads appears, either derailing or fighting to protect their version of "normal".

Posted By: Eldath Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 01:05 PM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
snip


You are basically saying that anyone who disagrees with you is by default wrong and mustn't be listened to. Please keep your "education" to yourself.
You're just trying to ignore me because you project whiteness onto me, which is a total failiure on your part, because I'm not white.

It's kind of a sad day when some privileged western liberal can just tell you that your opinion doesn't matter because you disagree with her and therefore you're morally evil while she virtuesignals about poor people of colour but only as long as they agree with her.
Keep your hypocritical western morality to yourself, mods will solve all of these problems anyway, so you can have your ethnic elves or whatever floats your boat.
You don't see me complaining about this stupidity even though my ethnicity isn't represented even amongst the playable humans in this game, and I'm glad for it because my race is not some bludgeoning tool to force people into submission.
Overall, I can understand your indignation, I also love to create characters that are similar to myself.
But I do not see the point in changing the appearance of the races "for myself". It seems to me that this may violate lore.
In addition, in the FR setting, there are already dark-skinned elves - wild elves.
[img]https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/f...p/width/360/height/450?cb=20200929112108[/img]
They are also much larger than other elves. Heh, it seems to me that one of Irenicus's ancestors was one of them.
Let's avoid getting into arguments of real-life race and racism. Nothing good is likely to come of it.

There is no problem discussing what racial option you want to see represented in the game - that is welcome feedback. What is not wanted is becoming judgemental about individual posters.
real elves look like this:


[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey
Overall, I can understand your indignation, I also love to create characters that are similar to myself.
But I do not see the point in changing the appearance of the races "for myself". It seems to me that this may violate lore.

I'd have more respect for the D&D lore if the creators didn't go cherry picking ftom various folklores and mythologies themselves. It's a patchwork setting anyway. So at this point tbh I don't care if more variety would be inconsistent with lore. All the playable fantasy races look very human-like to me, including the gith or tieflings. The body types, body postures, face mimicry - it's all the same. Elongating a skull or making face features more "pixie" isn't going to make them look less human. That's just a bit of cosmetics you might do for a Halloween costume. Mind flayers are about the only species that looks alien.
Originally Posted by Eldath
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
snip


You are basically saying that anyone who disagrees with you is by default wrong and mustn't be listened to. Please keep your "education" to yourself.
You're just trying to ignore me because you project whiteness onto me, which is a total failiure on your part, because I'm not white.

It's kind of a sad day when some privileged western liberal can just tell you that your opinion doesn't matter because you disagree with her and therefore you're morally evil while she virtuesignals about poor people of colour but only as long as they agree with her.
Keep your hypocritical western morality to yourself, mods will solve all of these problems anyway, so you can have your ethnic elves or whatever floats your boat.
You don't see me complaining about this stupidity even though my ethnicity isn't represented even amongst the playable humans in this game, and I'm glad for it because my race is not some bludgeoning tool to force people into submission.



I'm not saying that. What I'm saying, to you as well as others in both THIS thread and similar threads that I have seen, is that you appear to not UNDERSTAND what the original post is actually ABOUT. It's not that your opinions are WRONG, necessarily, it's that they aren't relevant to the heart of the topic raised by the poster.

I actually anticipated the "I'm not white" statement, which is why I phrased my post very specifically to NOT say that you, yourself (or any poster here) is actually white, or even to directly imply it. All of my discussion about whiteness was framed in the context of my OWN whiteness.

Whatever your ethnic background is, it's also not relevant to the points we are arguing here. Because you're saying the same KINDS of things that privileged white people (or other majority groups in various places around the world) often say in response to ANY request by a marginalized group to make the world a little more equitable. And they display a simple lack of understanding of what the other person is actually saying. You try to make it about other things, and it's not about other things. It's about the thing that it's about.

Privileged western liberal? Yeah, I'll cop to that. I am exactly that. I know that I am PROFOUNDLY privileged, in fact, compared to literally the majority of people on this planet. I'm very grateful for the comforts and advantages that my life provides (most of which I did not earn in any way other than coming out of the correct uterus). Does that mean I should simply not care about the issues that affect billions of other humans who don't share my privileges? "Not my problem, fuck em"? Is that what I should think?

I always find it really sad when someone uses the term "virtue signalling" any time someone expresses any thought which is based in empathy or social justice. It's like people who fall back on that ridiculous term can't even CONCEIVE of the idea that someone else might ACTUALLY care about issues which they do not care about, that someone else might ACTUALLY be speaking from a place of compassion and desire for fairness, that someone might, y'know, actually be SINCERE. It's like that is a totally foreign idea, because the only way they can imagine a person communicating is in some kind of tactical, cynical way just to engineer others' opinion of them. It's like they think that no one in the world actually BELIEVES in anything, that it's ALL just a big show in order to impress people. Is that what you think? Does that mean that you don't believe in anything? Does that mean that you have no convictions? Is every word out of your mouth some kind of gambit just to maneuver on some invisible chess board of human interaction?

Look, I'm sure some people really DO "virtue signal", in some cases. The idea is probably not entirely fictional. But when I see people use the term, they just automatically jump to paint ANY "liberal" messaging as that. They don't even consider the chance that the person they are accusing of this might actually care about what they're talking about. That sounds like a very depressing view of other people to have to carry around.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey
Overall, I can understand your indignation, I also love to create characters that are similar to myself.
But I do not see the point in changing the appearance of the races "for myself". It seems to me that this may violate lore.

I'd have more respect for the D&D lore if the creators didn't go cherry picking ftom various folklores and mythologies themselves. It's a patchwork setting anyway. So at this point tbh I don't care if more variety would be inconsistent with lore. All the playable fantasy races look very human-like to me, including the gith or tieflings. The body types, body postures, face mimicry - it's all the same. Elongating a skull or making face features more "pixie" isn't going to make them look less human. That's just a bit of cosmetics you might do for a Halloween costume. Mind flayers are about the only species that looks alien.

That is, you do not take into account the cultural and external characteristics of races?
Or do you just think that in order to make a fantasy race different from humans, you need to make it as strange and alien as possible?
Perhaps I misunderstood your idea, but it seems to me that with such a logic, all fantasy races, from trolls to yugoloths, can be called "people".
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Let's avoid getting into arguments of real-life race and racism. Nothing good is likely to come of it.

There is no problem discussing what racial option you want to see represented in the game - that is welcome feedback. What is not wanted is becoming judgemental about individual posters.



Okay, got it. I'll drop it. My last post went through before I saw you post this.
Firesnakearies: I meant it when I said to drop the arguments about real-life racism. Yet you continued. Do not get dragged into this argument again. I'm cutting you a little slack because of the timing.

For anyone else thinking of continuing the racism argument - just don't.
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Firesnakearies: I meant it when I said to drop the arguments about real-life racism. Yet you continued. Do not get dragged into this argument again. I'm cutting you a little slack because of the timing.

For anyone else thinking of continuing the racism argument - just don't.



Understood.
Posted By: Eldath Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 02:05 PM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

I actually anticipated the "I'm not white" statement

Good, because I'm not, but that doesn't invalidate my arguments.

Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

Whatever your ethnic background is, it's also not relevant to the points we are arguing here.

Then neither is OP's entire post, nor is this thread. Either accept that D&D is not the real world, and act accordingly, and have fun with it, OR admit that you want to push real life politics into a fantasy setting. There is no way to sell whatever you're doing as a non-political move.

Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

But when I see people use the term, they just automatically jump to paint ANY "liberal" messaging as that.

Because it is just that. You basically admitted that people who disagree with you shouldn't be listened to.

Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

It's not that your opinions are WRONG, necessarily, it's that they aren't relevant


It's not about actually caring about other people, you merely care about being right and your very narrow views to be pushed upon everyone as if they were universal.
If someone disagrees with you you will just refuse to engage and call whatever they said irrelevant to the discussion and expect them to accept this.
Well tough luck, I'm not accepting it.
I always loved the way eldar/dark eldar were drawn as a way to represent the alienness of "elves"

all from here:
https://www.deviantart.com/beckjann

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

There's a degree of alienness to their faces which elves in BG3 do not have, because they are just humans with pointy ears.
Posted By: Eldath Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 02:09 PM
Those are very good, even though I think the headspikes are a bit much.
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey

That is, you do not take into account the cultural and external characteristics of races?
Or do you just think that in order to make a fantasy race different from humans, you need to make it as strange and alien as possible?
Perhaps I misunderstood your idea, but it seems to me that with such a logic, all fantasy races, from trolls to yugoloths, can be called "people".

I'd expect an alien to differ in not just looks, but also their lifestyle, culture, behavior, means of communication, how they perceive the world, how they interact, etc. All this all should be shaped by their biological characteristics. Even if they are just imaginary.
Originally Posted by Eldath
Those are very good, even though I think the headspikes are a bit much.

I think the top one is a male wytch so it kind of fits thematically, but not with faerun elves i agree.
Those look really cool, a_a. I'm not sure how hard it would be to make 3D models that have to be fully animated that look as good as those still images.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey

That is, you do not take into account the cultural and external characteristics of races?
Or do you just think that in order to make a fantasy race different from humans, you need to make it as strange and alien as possible?
Perhaps I misunderstood your idea, but it seems to me that with such a logic, all fantasy races, from trolls to yugoloths, can be called "people".

I'd expect an alien to differ in not just looks, but also their lifestyle, culture, behavior, means of communication, how they perceive the world, how they interact, etc. All this all should be shaped by their biological characteristics. Even if they are just imaginary.

And in fact it is.
But most gamers (well, tabletop game players) and video game creators ignore this, making elves just extraordinarily handsome people.
It's funny, but even in the 5th D&D rulebooks, there are significant sections dedicated to various races (even monster races that the player is unlikely to be able to play), but, again, many people ignore this.
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool

There's a degree of alienness to their faces which elves in BG3 do not have, because they are just humans with pointy ears.

It is a pity that the GW is also starting to lose ground.
With the release of new editions, Aeldari and Elves (Aelves, if you like Age of Sigmar) are becoming more human-like.
Originally Posted by Eldath

.....
It's not about actually caring about other people, you merely care about being right and your very narrow views to be pushed upon everyone as if they were universal.
If someone disagrees with you you will just refuse to engage and call whatever they said irrelevant to the discussion and expect them to accept this.
Well tough luck, I'm not accepting it.

When I said to drop the argument, I meant it.

Take 3 days away to consider your future behaviour. Extended to permanent ban for attempting to bypass suspension using Alts.


Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool

There's a degree of alienness to their faces which elves in BG3 do not have, because they are just humans with pointy ears.

It is a pity that the GW is also starting to lose ground.
With the release of new editions, Aeldari and Elves (Aelves, if you like Age of Sigmar) are becoming more human-like.

Thats a shame, I haven't seen the newer tranch of codexes and so on, but the thing I always liked about them was how alien they are, depite superficially looking "human-ish" The elongated faces and the very attrctive yet cruel look. And the fact that they could theoretically be mistaken for humans, but their manner, attitudes, culture, behavior were as far removed from humans as ork culture was, just in different ways.
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey

And in fact it is.
But most gamers (well, tabletop game players) and video game creators ignore this, making elves just extraordinarily handsome people.
It's funny, but even in the 5th D&D rulebooks, there are significant sections dedicated to various races (even monster races that the player is unlikely to be able to play), but, again, many people ignore this.

I don't consider differences that are similar to what you can find among human cultures as such. Consider the drow: in BG2 you get to visit a drow city. And what do you see: a city market, a temple, a tavern and houses in-between. Same for the elven city you get to visit. How does it really differ from human cities except for the architectural style?

So unless in 5e drow cities don't copy the human city template (same as the elven bodies are based on the human body) anymore, that's a potato/potatoe difference to me.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 02:58 PM
Elves have by lore distinct feature from the humans. Now in bg3 elves are not represented even correctly adding more "Diversity" to the race would be basically breaking the lore you may argue they look too much caucasian i say they really look way too much humans to start with.

As you see Elves have a bone structure of the face that is not caucasian at all in the pen and paper so in that Larian did the elves completely wrong.

If you want to make a character of elven heritage that have respemblance to a specific etnicy i would suggest you to make an half elf because they still have elven tracts but they retain featurers from the other other blood as well.[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool

Thats a shame, I haven't seen the newer tranch of codexes and so on, but the thing I always liked about them was how alien they are, depite superficially looking "human-ish" The elongated faces and the very attrctive yet cruel look. And the fact that they could theoretically be mistaken for humans, but their manner, attitudes, culture, behavior were as far removed from humans as ork culture was, just in different ways.

Well, I guess that's what happens to all the popular franchises.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
differences that are similar to what you can find among human cultures as such. Consider the drow: in BG2 you get to visit a drow city. And what do you see: a city market, a temple, a tavern and houses in-between. Same for the elven city you get to visit. How does it really differ from human cities except for the architectural style?

Life, activities, matriarchy, religion and the presence of a huge number of slaves.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
same as the elven bodies are based on the human body

Abd what's the problem here? Do you think that in order to be different from a person you need to be like the Old Ones from the Lovecraft books?
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Eldath

.....
It's not about actually caring about other people, you merely care about being right and your very narrow views to be pushed upon everyone as if they were universal.
If someone disagrees with you you will just refuse to engage and call whatever they said irrelevant to the discussion and expect them to accept this.
Well tough luck, I'm not accepting it.

When I said to drop the argument, I meant it.

Take 3 days away to consider your future behaviour.


Both of them posted after your initial warning, looking at the timing if one didn't see it because they were writing probably neither did the other. Shouldn't you be banning both or neither?

Ngl, it's also kinda funny that the non-white person is getting suspended after they got dragged into an argument about race and social justice by a white person. Not racist, make no mistake, just really hysterical.

And hey, if i get the bench too for saying this i'm also non-white, which would only add to the comicity levels in my book.
Posted By: Braxton Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 03:10 PM
It's the work of just a couple of seconds on google to find plentiful great material on non-white elves. Given that the game already has such a diverse range of skin, hair and eye colours/patterns it would be great to have some new faces to be able to make characters as awesome as this. Hope Larian listens to this feedback smile


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/52/5e/0d/525e0d42e28485799ad11293146086b7.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fc/d5/77/fcd57742b274d36150d461caa07299cc.png
https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/asset...clarence-bateman-blackelf.jpg?1533154696
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-42cb4de8912149553a0931d4f50d758f
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ee/ab/5a/eeab5a8ceb3ae12888cb3fc4de8e55d4.jpg
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 03:10 PM
However before everywone panics as such matters tend to be very sensitive Forgotter Realms elves thend to be diverse depending on the race they belong. However expecting human diversity on a race that is not human at all is completely utterly out of place.
[img]https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/f...cale-to-width-down/400?cb=20090526075945[/img]

Unlike some pictures that were linked this is straight from the source material.
Originally Posted by Braxton
It's the work of just a couple of seconds on google to find plentiful great material on non-white elves. Given that the game already has such a diverse range of skin, hair and eye colours/patterns it would be great to have some new faces to be able to make characters as awesome as this. Hope Larian listens to this feedback smile


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/52/5e/0d/525e0d42e28485799ad11293146086b7.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fc/d5/77/fcd57742b274d36150d461caa07299cc.png
https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/asset...clarence-bateman-blackelf.jpg?1533154696
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-42cb4de8912149553a0931d4f50d758f
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ee/ab/5a/eeab5a8ceb3ae12888cb3fc4de8e55d4.jpg

Are these arts the official depiction of elves in FR?
I am not belittling the quality of these art in any way, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to change the look of an entire race due to the good art of non-white elf on the internet. In addition, there are already dark-skin elves in Faerûn, wild elves.
You just might as well ask Larian to make vampires like this:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/m...E.jpeg/revision/latest?cb=20180627194215
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p...xJxyTnmKM9IWJ_UaflSUSDYCH-LzJEDSWBkEWU6k
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b9/19/70/b91970211149d609912a1ba8771b062d.jpg
Posted By: Braxton Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey
Are these arts the official depiction of elves in FR?
I am not belittling the quality of these art in any way, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to change the look of an entire race due to the good art of non-white elf on the internet.


Currently in BG3 I can make an orange skinned, green haired elf with all black eyes. BG3 isn't particularly concerned with limiting players to the traditional artwork, something that I doubt WOTC care about given their recent moves to decouple things like alignments and stats from race.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 03:39 PM
WOTC still care about the lore. In fact illustration of elves in the player handbook still respect the bone structure of the face pictured in the 3.5.. Larian did many things right but as it is now did an awful job in the depiction of the elves. Elves head look way more half elf heads than elven one.

YOu can compare the source material of the 5th edition with the one of the 3.5 the visual representation of the elves is still there. It is not there however in bg3.

What i care about is the Lore. FR elves are already diverse and are not humans. Expecting humans diversity from a race that is not clearly human like i said is out of place.

Is like if i pretended to make a Githianky looking like Monica Bellucci.
I understand both sides of this argument. I think it would be great that elves in Faerun are depicted as an alien race that have these absurdly tilted eyes, really thin faces and pointed ears. The problem is that, especially in 5e, WoTC does not enforce these "rules" in their official art. So it's basically down to the artist on whether or not an elf looks like a creature from a different species or just a human with pointy ears.

Overall, I think the character creator needs to be expanded upon anyway. Where Larian wants to take to the character creator is up to them.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by dreambled
I understand both sides of this argument. I think it would be great that elves in Faerun are depicted as an alien race that have these absurdly tilted eyes, really thin faces and pointed ears. The problem is that, especially in 5e, WoTC does not enforce these "rules" in their official art. So it's basically down to the artist on whether or not an elf looks like a creature from a different species or just a human with pointy ears.

Overall, I think the character creator needs to be expanded upon anyway. Where Larian wants to take to the character creator is up to them.


Actually that's not true at all. The imagine of elves in 5th edition still are following the bone structure the elves have supposed to have. Cut of the eyes. Long noses. In D&D and in faerun the elves are supposed not to look like humans there was a well made thread in forum that actually proved that.

[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey
Are these arts the official depiction of elves in FR?
I am not belittling the quality of these art in any way, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to change the look of an entire race due to the good art of non-white elf on the internet.
javascript:quickReply(741543,1,0)

Currently in BG3 I can make an orange skinned, green haired elf with all black eyes.

Yes, if you turn off customization restrictions. By the way, sun elves have bronze skin, while forest elves have copper and tanned skin.
And I still don't see the point in introducing new faces for non-white elves. You can make a black-skin elf anyway.
Posted By: Braxton Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey
[Yes, if you turn off customization restrictions. By the way, sun elves have bronze skin, while forest elves have copper and tanned skin.
And I still don't see the point in introducing new faces for non-white elves. You can make a black-skin elf anyway.


So what's your complaint against people requesting that Larian add more faces that allow you to make an elf that appears ethnically black (or non-Caucasian)? If we already have the ability to turn off restrictions to make any colour combination, why not have that restriction enable more face options?
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey
[Yes, if you turn off customization restrictions. By the way, sun elves have bronze skin, while forest elves have copper and tanned skin.
And I still don't see the point in introducing new faces for non-white elves. You can make a black-skin elf anyway.


So what's your complaint against people requesting that Larian add more faces that allow you to make an elf that appears ethnically black (or non-Caucasian)? If we already have the ability to turn off restrictions to make any colour combination, why not have that restriction enable more face options?


One answer: Lore.
Sun elf are supposed to appear in a certain manner. Wild elf on another. Moon elf on another. Drow on another. But they all share with some difference the same bone facial structure as they are elves not humans.
Posted By: Braxton Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by Rieline
[quote=Braxton][quote=BuckettMonkey]
One answer: Lore.


For consistency then are you against the ability to turn off customisation restrictions? I'm not aware of any lore that says there are tomato elves with bright red skin and a frizz of green hair but we can make them.

It seems a strange hill to die on to insist that for your enjoyment of the game other players shouldn't be allowed a greater range of customisation options, particularly when the game already lets you make characters that have skin and hair colours that don't match lore.
Posted By: Grantig Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 03:53 PM
I don't get the point here.
Fantasy races are fantasy races, and if they have a specific look according to their lore, they have. I don't know if elves are distributed worldwide the same way as humans are in D&D and if they distinguish from each other the same way as humans do.
My complain about the elves here would be more that they look like canadian wood-cutters but not like elves and therefore actually are wrong according to elfish lore.
However, each race/gender in BG3 could get some more selectable faces than 4 (or 6 for humans).
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 03:56 PM
Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by Rieline
[quote=Braxton][quote=BuckettMonkey]
One answer: Lore.


For consistency then are you against the ability to turn off customisation restrictions? I'm not aware of any lore that says there are tomato elves with bright red skin and a frizz of green hair but we can make them.

It seems a strange hill to die on to insist that for your enjoyment of the game other players shouldn't be allowed a greater range of customisation options, particularly when the game already lets you make characters that have skin and hair colours that don't match lore.


It gives the setting more consistency those are racial distinct features if one dislike such feature why chose that race in the first place? It is not like everything must look varied as humans. Otherwise what could stop me to make a white skinned Ghitianky that looks like Jhonny Depp?

It makes the setting more coherent and it create diversity among the race that contains. If everything would look the same what is the point to make a different race from the humans. Let's just make all humans.

Pretending a not Human race to have Human tracts is quite well... A pretense.
Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey
[Yes, if you turn off customization restrictions. By the way, sun elves have bronze skin, while forest elves have copper and tanned skin.
And I still don't see the point in introducing new faces for non-white elves. You can make a black-skin elf anyway.


So what's your complaint against people requesting that Larian add more faces that allow you to make an elf that appears ethnically black (or non-Caucasian)? If we already have the ability to turn off restrictions to make any colour combination, why not have that restriction enable more face options?

The fact that it has no justification in the lore. I have nothing against new faces (Although I would like this to primarily affect the dwarves), but I would like these faces to comply with the established canons.
If there were elves with black people facial features in Faerûn, I would not have written a word, but I do not remember that such elves existed in the setting.
And one more thing, I don't know if this is important for our discussion or not, but I do not approve of the ability to turn off restrictions on colors, this function annoys me a little... This is a subjective opinion.
Posted By: Braxton Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by Rieline
It gives the setting more consistency those are racial distinct features if one dislike such feature why chose that race in the first place? It is not like everything must look varied as humans. Otherwise what could stop me to make a white skinned Ghitianky that looks like Jhonny Depp?

It makes the setting more coherent and it create diversity among the race that contains. If everything would look the same what is the point to make a different race from the humans. Let's just make all humans.

Pretending a not Human race to have Human tracts is quite well... A pretense.


1) How does it affect your enjoyment of the game that other people are given more customisation options that you are not required to use?

2) Are you against the current customisation options that allow you to make characters with any combination of skin, hair and eye colour?
Originally Posted by Rieline
Originally Posted by dreambled
I understand both sides of this argument. I think it would be great that elves in Faerun are depicted as an alien race that have these absurdly tilted eyes, really thin faces and pointed ears. The problem is that, especially in 5e, WoTC does not enforce these "rules" in their official art. So it's basically down to the artist on whether or not an elf looks like a creature from a different species or just a human with pointy ears.

Overall, I think the character creator needs to be expanded upon anyway. Where Larian wants to take to the character creator is up to them.


Actually that's not true at all. The imagine of elves in 5th edition still are following the bone structure the elves have supposed to have. Cut of the eyes. Long noses. In D&D and in faerun the elves are supposed not to look like humans there was a well made thread in forum that actually proved that.



Actually, that is not true at all. For every example there is of an elf that follows the rules, there is one that doesn't. There are plenty of elves in the PHB who do not have the oddly angled eyes that they should have, there is even an elf who has a very round face in there. Which again, proves my point of this coming down to the artist.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by Rieline
It gives the setting more consistency those are racial distinct features if one dislike such feature why chose that race in the first place? It is not like everything must look varied as humans. Otherwise what could stop me to make a white skinned Ghitianky that looks like Jhonny Depp?

It makes the setting more coherent and it create diversity among the race that contains. If everything would look the same what is the point to make a different race from the humans. Let's just make all humans.

Pretending a not Human race to have Human tracts is quite well... A pretense.


1) How does it affect your enjoyment of the game that other people are given more customisation options that you are not required to use?

2) Are you against the current customisation options that allow you to make characters with any combination of skin, hair and eye colour?


1) Yes it does. As i play forgotten realms in both pen and paper and videogames since i was a child. Adding things that breaks the lore smash the credibility and the immersion the setting provides to me. Is not a necessary add on. What needs to be done in my opinion is move the current elven head in the half race elf. And then implement proper elven head. In the case of OP i think wild elves would be perfect to her. Also again adding human diversity of a race that again "Is not supposed to be human at all" is completely unnecessary and kills off the distinct tracts of that specific rest.

2)No really. I even used that feature to create my tiefling as my tiefling is supposed to be one coming from a regular fiend and not an Archdemon or Archdevil wich is perfectly in the lore. However from custom color palette to having elves with the bone structure to reflect different HUMAN RACE etnicy there is a whole lot of difference.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by dreambled
Originally Posted by Rieline
Originally Posted by dreambled
I understand both sides of this argument. I think it would be great that elves in Faerun are depicted as an alien race that have these absurdly tilted eyes, really thin faces and pointed ears. The problem is that, especially in 5e, WoTC does not enforce these "rules" in their official art. So it's basically down to the artist on whether or not an elf looks like a creature from a different species or just a human with pointy ears.

Overall, I think the character creator needs to be expanded upon anyway. Where Larian wants to take to the character creator is up to them.


Actually that's not true at all. The imagine of elves in 5th edition still are following the bone structure the elves have supposed to have. Cut of the eyes. Long noses. In D&D and in faerun the elves are supposed not to look like humans there was a well made thread in forum that actually proved that.



Actually, that is not true at all. For every example there is of an elf that follows the rules, there is one that doesn't. There are plenty of elves in the PHB who do not have the oddly angled eyes that they should have, there is even an elf who has a very round face in there. Which again, proves my point of this coming down to the artist.


Provide links of that image.
Posted By: Braxton Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by Rieline
1) Yes it does. As i play forgotten realms in both pen and paper and videogames since i was a child. Adding things that breaks the lore smash the credibility and the immersion the setting provides to me.



With respect, that's a you problem. I've also played tabletop for many years and if in my game, pen and paper or cRPG, I customise a character in a way that hasn't been shown in lore that in no way breaks your immersion. If Larian added more faces for a range of ethnicities and let you use them with any race, even if it required you unticking the customisation restriction setting, it in no way will affect your game.

Originally Posted by Rieline

2)No really. I even used that feature to create my tiefling as my tiefling is supposed to be one coming from a regular fiend and not an Archdemon or Archdevil wich is perfectly in the lore. However from custom color palette to having elves with the bone structure to reflect different HUMAN RACE etnicy there is a whole lot of difference.


It really isn't and shows a double standard. You say that a face based on a non-Caucasian ethnicity would break and smash the game that you hold so dear, yet you're completely fine with non-Caucasian and even alien skin/hair tones. I'd suggest you reflect on that inconsistency because it doesn't point to anything good.

I don't have anything more to say beyond these points, I don't think anything more needs to be said. This boils down to you feeling like a very specific subset of options for other players is damaging to you, and I completely disagree. So I'm going to leave it there.
Posted By: ojraven Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 04:16 PM
I'm just hoping Larian put in a body type option as well id like my fighter look more like me in term of body type especially when barbarian one of my favorite classes finally drops in the game
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by Rieline
1) Yes it does. As i play forgotten realms in both pen and paper and videogames since i was a child. Adding things that breaks the lore smash the credibility and the immersion the setting provides to me.



With respect, that's a you problem. I've also played tabletop for many years and if in my game, pen and paper or cRPG, I customise a character in a way that hasn't been shown in lore that in no way breaks your immersion. If Larian added more faces for a range of ethnicities and let you use them with any race, even if it required you unticking the customisation restriction setting, it in no way will affect your game.

Originally Posted by Rieline

2)No really. I even used that feature to create my tiefling as my tiefling is supposed to be one coming from a regular fiend and not an Archdemon or Archdevil wich is perfectly in the lore. However from custom color palette to having elves with the bone structure to reflect different HUMAN RACE etnicy there is a whole lot of difference.


It really isn't and shows a double standard. You say that a face based on a non-Caucasian ethnicity would break and smash the game that you hold so dear, yet you're completely fine with non-Caucasian and even alien skin/hair tones. I'd suggest you reflect on that inconsistency because it doesn't point to anything good.

I don't have anything more to say beyond these points, I don't think anything more needs to be said. This boils down to you feeling like a very specific subset of options for other players is damaging to you, and I completely disagree. So I'm going to leave it there.


Setting exist for a reason. It gives you a context and a world to play and roleplay in. If you disregard the setting there is no point to have a setting at all. Unfortunately bg3 is in a well know setting and this setting in particular is very popular because is how it is. Elves are elves. They are not human they are not supposed to be human they are not supposed to look like human they don't even share any sort of ancestry with humans. Expecting them to look like humans or having humans Ethnicies is like expecting a goldfish to go to school and walk on land. Completely out of context. The moment we start not respecting a setting or breaking the lore with a setting we won't have a point to have a setting anymore. Yes it does affect my game because if i find an npc that have a ethnicy is not supposed to have i will deem them lore breaking and so it will break my immersion. WOuld be not a problem if the choice would be just avaliable for the player only.

2) You are not making any sense at all. What i said is the color wheel in the case of Tiefling is very useful. There is a large number of tiefling that comes from Asmodeus,Zariel,Mephistophele. However not all of them. A tiefling could actually be coloured like an human with distinct fiendish aspect.
Originally Posted by Rieline
Originally Posted by dreambled
Originally Posted by Rieline
Originally Posted by dreambled
I understand both sides of this argument. I think it would be great that elves in Faerun are depicted as an alien race that have these absurdly tilted eyes, really thin faces and pointed ears. The problem is that, especially in 5e, WoTC does not enforce these "rules" in their official art. So it's basically down to the artist on whether or not an elf looks like a creature from a different species or just a human with pointy ears.

Overall, I think the character creator needs to be expanded upon anyway. Where Larian wants to take to the character creator is up to them.


Actually that's not true at all. The imagine of elves in 5th edition still are following the bone structure the elves have supposed to have. Cut of the eyes. Long noses. In D&D and in faerun the elves are supposed not to look like humans there was a well made thread in forum that actually proved that.



Actually, that is not true at all. For every example there is of an elf that follows the rules, there is one that doesn't. There are plenty of elves in the PHB who do not have the oddly angled eyes that they should have, there is even an elf who has a very round face in there. Which again, proves my point of this coming down to the artist.


Provide links of that image.


Sure!

The bard looks like my coworker with white hair and long ears. Eyes are not at the correct angle for an elf.

These guys near the beginning of the book look like humans with pointy ears.

This druid, whom I believe is really a half-elf, shows no signs of being part elf besides the stubby pointed ears.

This elf near the Spells section of the book I believe does not have those gaunt cheeks you would expect elves to have.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 04:24 PM
AH yes i can see that howver i never specified gaunted cheecks the main difference in the elves bone structure is the cut of the eyes and the noses. The first one and the last one and even second one had those. I can agree on the OP on just one thing. Currently elves in bg3 looks way too caucasian and they are not supposed to be. ((i would love to create a super lovely elven lady like in the last picture with chubby cheeks.))
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey

Originally Posted by ash elemental
differences that are similar to what you can find among human cultures as such. Consider the drow: in BG2 you get to visit a drow city. And what do you see: a city market, a temple, a tavern and houses in-between. Same for the elven city you get to visit. How does it really differ from human cities except for the architectural style?

Life, activities, matriarchy, religion and the presence of a huge number of slaves.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
same as the elven bodies are based on the human body

Abd what's the problem here? Do you think that in order to be different from a person you need to be like the Old Ones from the Lovecraft books?
If a fantasy species is supposed to be "alien" and not just another human copycat with few cosmetic design differences? Yes. Matriarchy, religion, slavery are all human inventions, and so are cities, so I fail to see the difference in what you have listed here, especially since the drow and elf life activities consist of human behaviors like haggling in markets, drinking in taverns and worshipping at temples. Even the elven faces (not in-game, but the examples posted here) just look like caricatures to me, where you simply use a human as a model, but exaggerate some face features on purpose.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey

Originally Posted by ash elemental
differences that are similar to what you can find among human cultures as such. Consider the drow: in BG2 you get to visit a drow city. And what do you see: a city market, a temple, a tavern and houses in-between. Same for the elven city you get to visit. How does it really differ from human cities except for the architectural style?

Life, activities, matriarchy, religion and the presence of a huge number of slaves.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
same as the elven bodies are based on the human body

Abd what's the problem here? Do you think that in order to be different from a person you need to be like the Old Ones from the Lovecraft books?
If a fantasy species is supposed to be "alien" and not just another human copycat with few cosmetic design differences? Yes. Matriarchy, religion, slavery are all human inventions, and so are cities, so I fail to see the difference in what you have listed here, especially since the drow and elf life activities consist of human behaviors like haggling in markets, drinking in taverns and worshipping at temples. Even the elven faces (not in-game, but the examples posted here) just look like caricatures to me, where you simply use a human as a model, but exaggerate some face features on purpose.

So, do you exclude that over the many years of coexistence, some races have exchanged experiences and technological advances or just stolen them?
And for you, a fantastic race must necessarily be alien and incomprehensible, both physically and socially?
Originally Posted by Rieline
AH yes i can see that howver i never specified gaunted cheecks the main difference in the elves bone structure is the cut of the eyes and the noses. The first one and the last one and even second one had those. I can agree on the OP on just one thing. Currently elves in bg3 looks way too caucasian and they are not supposed to be. ((i would love to create a super lovely elven lady like in the last picture with chubby cheeks.))


The real test here, and the point I'm making, is that if you give all of those examples I linked human ears, would you even notice that they weren't supposed to be human originally? I would say besides the last one you wouldn't. If the argument is elves are not supposed to look like humans, and they have their own distinct features besides just pointy ears, then WOTC is not enforcing that.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by dreambled
Originally Posted by Rieline
AH yes i can see that howver i never specified gaunted cheecks the main difference in the elves bone structure is the cut of the eyes and the noses. The first one and the last one and even second one had those. I can agree on the OP on just one thing. Currently elves in bg3 looks way too caucasian and they are not supposed to be. ((i would love to create a super lovely elven lady like in the last picture with chubby cheeks.))


The real test here, and the point I'm making, is that if you give all of those examples I linked human ears, would you even notice that they weren't supposed to be human originally? I would say besides the last one you wouldn't. If the argument is elves are not supposed to look like humans, and they have their own distinct features besides just pointy ears, then WOTC is not enforcing that.


My point is another like i state perviously the imagine you linked still have the elven features very well evident even if different between the image. The problem is that currently elves in bg3 just way too much like humans. They lack totally for the most part the distinct facial tracts elven have. Tracts that were present more or less in the picture you posted. To me the elven head in bg3 must be redone. Or simply swapped to the half elves. There is not currently an head in bg3 for elves that represent how elves should like. Wotc is pretty clear in the elven descriptions how they look like. Also FR has is own races of elves that are well decribed on how they appear the color of the skin eyes and hair and that's also important because this features are what distinguish an elven race for another. For istance i can't come to you and tell.. Ohhh i want to make a drow but i want his skin to be pinkish and her hair to be pink!... You could say to me. But that's not what a drow looks like. And i could tell you: Hey don't kill off my fantasy i want it to look like that. And with that i would trow down an entire background and race distinction down to the toilet.
Posted By: Braxton Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by Rieline

2) You are not making any sense at all. What i said is the color wheel in the case of Tiefling is very useful. There is a large number of tiefling that comes from Asmodeus,Zariel,Mephistophele. However not all of them. A tiefling could actually be coloured like an human with distinct fiendish aspect.


I said I was dropping it and I really intend to but you seem to have missed the point. We're not talking about Tieflings, we're talking about elves. Currently you an make an Elven character with any skin colour, any hair colour and any eye colour. You can even give them all black eyes or a variety of demon eyes. When I asked you whether you were against this you said no, despite the fact that this is not in lore.

The only thing to conclude from this inconsistent position is that the lore you particularly care about is specifically one of ethnicity. It's not a great look, to say the least, that you apparently couldn't possibly cope with people being able to make non-Caucasian elves in their own games but you're fine with the idea of creating a bright orange, carrot topped one. Kind of indicates where your specific issues lie, if it was all about Lore then you would have kicked up this much of a fuss when the game first released and you saw it came with the ability to turn customization restrictions off. If you're only complaining now that someone has asked for some non-Caucasian faces...well like I said. Maybe something for you to reflect on.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by Rieline

2) You are not making any sense at all. What i said is the color wheel in the case of Tiefling is very useful. There is a large number of tiefling that comes from Asmodeus,Zariel,Mephistophele. However not all of them. A tiefling could actually be coloured like an human with distinct fiendish aspect.


I said I was dropping it and I really intend to but you seem to have missed the point. We're not talking about Tieflings, we're talking about elves. Currently you an make an Elven character with any skin colour, any hair colour and any eye colour. You can even give them all black eyes or a variety of demon eyes. When I asked you whether you were against this you said no, despite the fact that this is not in lore.

The only thing to conclude from this inconsistent position is that the lore you particularly care about is specifically one of ethnicity. It's not a great look, to say the least, that you apparently couldn't possibly cope with people being able to makenon-Caucasian elves in their own games but you're fine with the idea of creating a bright orange, carrot topped one. Kind of indicates where your specific issues lie, if it was all about Lore then you would have kicked up this much of a fuss when the game first released and you saw it came with the ability to turn customization restrictions off. If you're only complaining now that someone has asked for some non-Caucasian faces...well like I said. Maybe something for you to reflect on.


I won't define my statements like compaling. I am just giving feedback. TO be clear with you i would not have problem if those would be just tied to your character as i could chose to ignore that. I would have a problem tho if i would see in the game elven npc with Asian,African,Cacuasian,Latin faces because that would be absolutely lore breaking. I also think that developing something to add human diversity to a race that is not supposed to have Human ethnicy would be a waste of resources. I'd rather would instead they focus the development on made the elven heads actually elven.

Also you are starting to go in the zone of assumption there is nothing to assume my position is pretty clear and is not meant to offend anybody. Also do you want to make an elven char that has also a human Ethnicy? do it! That's what half elves are for.
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey

So, do you exclude that over the many years of coexistence, some races have exchanged experiences and technological advances or just stolen them?
And for you, a fantastic race must necessarily be alien and incomprehensible, both physically and socially?

Not some, all of the playable races in D&D look similar enough to the humans. That's why I disagree with the 'elves are an alien species' argument; there is nothing alien about them. To make it clear: I don't care if a fantasy race is basically a " copy&paste, only make it fashion" version of a human. But, as I wrote before, I don't have any respect for unoriginal lore like that.

D&D is a setting of "borrowed" features. Heck, from what I remember the Tolkien estate sued at some point, because they "borrowed" too much. And so they had to change the lore.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey

So, do you exclude that over the many years of coexistence, some races have exchanged experiences and technological advances or just stolen them?
And for you, a fantastic race must necessarily be alien and incomprehensible, both physically and socially?

Not some, all of the playable races in D&D look similar enough to the humans. That's why I disagree with the 'elves are an alien species' argument; there is nothing alien about them. To make it clear: I don't care if a fantasy race is basically a " copy&paste, only make it fashion" version of a human. But, as I wrote before, I don't have any respect for unoriginal lore like that.

D&D is a setting of "borrowed" features. Heck, from what I remember the Tolkien estate sued at some point, because they "borrowed" too much. And so they had to change the lore.


They may be not alien like Illithids. However they have unique body and face features.
Originally Posted by ash elemental

Not some, all of the playable races in D&D look similar enough to the humans. That's why I disagree with the 'elves are an alien species' argument; there is nothing alien about them.

It looks like you misunderstood my point. I write that elves are different from humans, albeit with some fantasy clichés. But at the same time, I do not believe that we should reduce all cultural and physiological differences to sharp ears and thin physique.
However, if the "fantasy non-human race" needs only tentacles and colonies united by a giant psionic brain, that's your business.
Originally Posted by Braxton
It's the work of just a couple of seconds on google to find plentiful great material on non-white elves. Given that the game already has such a diverse range of skin, hair and eye colours/patterns it would be great to have some new faces to be able to make characters as awesome as this. Hope Larian listens to this feedback smile


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/52/5e/0d/525e0d42e28485799ad11293146086b7.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fc/d5/77/fcd57742b274d36150d461caa07299cc.png
https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/asset...clarence-bateman-blackelf.jpg?1533154696
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-42cb4de8912149553a0931d4f50d758f
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ee/ab/5a/eeab5a8ceb3ae12888cb3fc4de8e55d4.jpg



Those are all awesome! I'd love to see some elves like this in the game.
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey

It looks like you misunderstood my point. I write that elves are different from humans, albeit with some fantasy clichés. But at the same time, I do not believe that we should reduce all cultural and physiological differences to sharp ears and thin physique.
However, if the "fantasy non-human race" needs only tentacles and colonies united by a giant psionic brain, that's your business.

And you misunderstand my point. Elves don't look different from humans to me, for the same reason a caricature drawing of a human might not look like a realistic drawing, but is still recognizable as human all the same.
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Eldath

.....
It's not about actually caring about other people, you merely care about being right and your very narrow views to be pushed upon everyone as if they were universal.
If someone disagrees with you you will just refuse to engage and call whatever they said irrelevant to the discussion and expect them to accept this.
Well tough luck, I'm not accepting it.

When I said to drop the argument, I meant it.

Take 3 days away to consider your future behaviour.


Both of them posted after your initial warning, looking at the timing if one didn't see it because they were writing probably neither did the other. Shouldn't you be banning both or neither?

Ngl, it's also kinda funny that the non-white person is getting suspended after they got dragged into an argument about race and social justice by a white person. Not racist, make no mistake, just really hysterical.

And hey, if i get the bench too for saying this i'm also non-white, which would only add to the comicity levels in my book.



If Sadurian wants to punish me as well, I wouldn't object. It takes two people to make an argument, after all.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Braxton
It's the work of just a couple of seconds on google to find plentiful great material on non-white elves. Given that the game already has such a diverse range of skin, hair and eye colours/patterns it would be great to have some new faces to be able to make characters as awesome as this. Hope Larian listens to this feedback smile


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/52/5e/0d/525e0d42e28485799ad11293146086b7.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fc/d5/77/fcd57742b274d36150d461caa07299cc.png
https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/asset...clarence-bateman-blackelf.jpg?1533154696
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-42cb4de8912149553a0931d4f50d758f
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ee/ab/5a/eeab5a8ceb3ae12888cb3fc4de8e55d4.jpg



Those are all awesome! I'd love to see some elves like this in the game.


Those pictures are very nice however no i don't want to see faces like that on elves. Rotate a bit more the eyes make the nose a little longer and they would be fitting for wild elf or wood elf tho. The second one all it neded is just a little inward rotation on the eye line and would be perfect.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey

It looks like you misunderstood my point. I write that elves are different from humans, albeit with some fantasy clichés. But at the same time, I do not believe that we should reduce all cultural and physiological differences to sharp ears and thin physique.
However, if the "fantasy non-human race" needs only tentacles and colonies united by a giant psionic brain, that's your business.

And you misunderstand my point. Elves don't look different from humans to me, for the same reason a caricature drawing of a human might not look like a realistic drawing, but is still recognizable as human all the same.

Well, with that kind of logic, you can define most fantasy races as humans.
Originally Posted by Rieline
Elves have by lore distinct feature from the humans. Now in bg3 elves are not represented even correctly adding more "Diversity" to the race would be basically breaking the lore you may argue they look too much caucasian i say they really look way too much humans to start with.

As you see Elves have a bone structure of the face that is not caucasian at all in the pen and paper so in that Larian did the elves completely wrong.

If you want to make a character of elven heritage that have respemblance to a specific etnicy i would suggest you to make an half elf because they still have elven tracts but they retain featurers from the other other blood as well.[Linked Image]




Originally Posted by Rieline
Originally Posted by dreambled
I understand both sides of this argument. I think it would be great that elves in Faerun are depicted as an alien race that have these absurdly tilted eyes, really thin faces and pointed ears. The problem is that, especially in 5e, WoTC does not enforce these "rules" in their official art. So it's basically down to the artist on whether or not an elf looks like a creature from a different species or just a human with pointy ears.

Overall, I think the character creator needs to be expanded upon anyway. Where Larian wants to take to the character creator is up to them.


Actually that's not true at all. The imagine of elves in 5th edition still are following the bone structure the elves have supposed to have. Cut of the eyes. Long noses. In D&D and in faerun the elves are supposed not to look like humans there was a well made thread in forum that actually proved that.

[Linked Image]




Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey
Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by BuckettMonkey
[Yes, if you turn off customization restrictions. By the way, sun elves have bronze skin, while forest elves have copper and tanned skin.
And I still don't see the point in introducing new faces for non-white elves. You can make a black-skin elf anyway.


So what's your complaint against people requesting that Larian add more faces that allow you to make an elf that appears ethnically black (or non-Caucasian)? If we already have the ability to turn off restrictions to make any colour combination, why not have that restriction enable more face options?


The fact that it has no justification in the lore. I have nothing against new faces (Although I would like this to primarily affect the dwarves), but I would like these faces to comply with the established canons.
If there were elves with black people facial features in Faerûn, I would not have written a word, but I do not remember that such elves existed in the setting.
And one more thing, I don't know if this is important for our discussion or not, but I do not approve of the ability to turn off restrictions on colors, this function annoys me a little... This is a subjective opinion.




Originally Posted by Rieline
Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by Rieline
It gives the setting more consistency those are racial distinct features if one dislike such feature why chose that race in the first place? It is not like everything must look varied as humans. Otherwise what could stop me to make a white skinned Ghitianky that looks like Jhonny Depp?

It makes the setting more coherent and it create diversity among the race that contains. If everything would look the same what is the point to make a different race from the humans. Let's just make all humans.

Pretending a not Human race to have Human tracts is quite well... A pretense.


1) How does it affect your enjoyment of the game that other people are given more customisation options that you are not required to use?

2) Are you against the current customisation options that allow you to make characters with any combination of skin, hair and eye colour?


1) Yes it does. As i play forgotten realms in both pen and paper and videogames since i was a child. Adding things that breaks the lore smash the credibility and the immersion the setting provides to me. Is not a necessary add on. What needs to be done in my opinion is move the current elven head in the half race elf. And then implement proper elven head. In the case of OP i think wild elves would be perfect to her. Also again adding human diversity of a race that again "Is not supposed to be human at all" is completely unnecessary and kills off the distinct tracts of that specific rest.

2)No really. I even used that feature to create my tiefling as my tiefling is supposed to be one coming from a regular fiend and not an Archdemon or Archdevil wich is perfectly in the lore. However from custom color palette to having elves with the bone structure to reflect different HUMAN RACE etnicy there is a whole lot of difference.




Originally Posted by Rieline
AH yes i can see that howver i never specified gaunted cheecks the main difference in the elves bone structure is the cut of the eyes and the noses. The first one and the last one and even second one had those. I can agree on the OP on just one thing. Currently elves in bg3 looks way too caucasian and they are not supposed to be. ((i would love to create a super lovely elven lady like in the last picture with chubby cheeks.))




Originally Posted by Rieline
Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by Rieline

2) You are not making any sense at all. What i said is the color wheel in the case of Tiefling is very useful. There is a large number of tiefling that comes from Asmodeus,Zariel,Mephistophele. However not all of them. A tiefling could actually be coloured like an human with distinct fiendish aspect.


I said I was dropping it and I really intend to but you seem to have missed the point. We're not talking about Tieflings, we're talking about elves. Currently you an make an Elven character with any skin colour, any hair colour and any eye colour. You can even give them all black eyes or a variety of demon eyes. When I asked you whether you were against this you said no, despite the fact that this is not in lore.

The only thing to conclude from this inconsistent position is that the lore you particularly care about is specifically one of ethnicity. It's not a great look, to say the least, that you apparently couldn't possibly cope with people being able to makenon-Caucasian elves in their own games but you're fine with the idea of creating a bright orange, carrot topped one. Kind of indicates where your specific issues lie, if it was all about Lore then you would have kicked up this much of a fuss when the game first released and you saw it came with the ability to turn customization restrictions off. If you're only complaining now that someone has asked for some non-Caucasian faces...well like I said. Maybe something for you to reflect on.


I won't define my statements like compaling. I am just giving feedback. TO be clear with you i would not have problem if those would be just tied to your character as i could chose to ignore that. I would have a problem tho if i would see in the game elven npc with Asian,African,Cacuasian,Latin faces because that would be absolutely lore breaking. I also think that developing something to add human diversity to a race that is not supposed to have Human ethnicy would be a waste of resources. I'd rather would instead they focus the development on made the elven heads actually elven.

Also you are starting to go in the zone of assumption there is nothing to assume my position is pretty clear and is not meant to offend anybody. Also do you want to make an elven char that has also a human Ethnicy? do it! That's what half elves are for.




Okay.

Not gonna talk about politics, not gonna be snarky. (Okay, I don't exactly know where the line is between being "cheeky" and being "snarky", but I'm going to try.)

But I am gonna dig into this some more.


First of all, +9999 to all of Braxton's posts. I'm with this person.


Maybe we need to take off our choir robes for the Holy Church of The Lore™ for a minute, here. I've seen a few people use this idea of "The Lore™" to counter requests like the original poster's. I quoted a couple of you above, but you're not the only people who feel this way.

But what IS The Lore™? Forgotten Realms, and D&D as a brand in general, is an ever-evolving, ever-changing mishmash of the disparate ideas of hundreds of various creative minds. Ed Greenwood was the original creator of FR, but since then many, many other people have changed his original ideas. (And he no longer owns the IP, so he kinda has no authoritative say in it now.) But I'd bet any amount of money that if I asked Ed Greenwood, "Hey, can I have an elf with African facial features in Faerun?" he'd laugh and say, "Of course you can!"

From edition to edition, MASSIVE changes take place to the sacred "lore", often times COMPLETELY retconning huge chunks of the narrative underpinnings of the setting, and countless small details. Heck, the entire cosmology of the planes, the entire metaphysical basis of EXISTENCE in these realms, is completely re-designed with EVERY editiion.

In 1e, devils were devils, though they had little in common, mechanically, with the devils of today. In 2e, suddenly they were "baatezu", because of real world concerns influencing the designers to step away from a problematic term. They were from the "lower planes" and specifically a plane that embodied lawfulness and evilness. But then in 3e, hey look, devils again, and now they're from a new group of planes, the "fiendish planes", and their plane no longer has anything to do with law. 4e comes along and suddenly devils come from the Astral Sea, same place as the gods, and they're in the same category of creature as ANGELS. 5e, they're back to being "baatezu" but ALSO "devils", and hey, they're once again from the "lower planes" (but these are a different layout of planes than the old ones). Tieflings are almost totally unrecognizable from their earliest incarnations, as are dragonborn. And the list of these kinds of constant changes would be insanely long.

How exactly are we supposed to maintain some ironclad "immersion" based on setting consistency when the setting is never consistent in the first place? Sometimes they even change the lore WITHIN an edition. When even the people who write about the setting don't give a toss about their own previously-written lore, how are we supposed to take it seriously? Whatever it says now, in 5e, will probably be totally different in a couple of years, anyway. In short, there IS no "The Lore™".

This isn't Middle-earth, a monolithic setting that was (mostly) the work of one creator with absolute authority over it, and functionally became sacrosanct when he died. If you want a The One True Lore to worship at the altar of, Tolkien's world is a perfect place to do it. But that's not even remotely true for Faerun, which is about as constant as Lady Gaga's hairstyle.

And if the argument is "well only current 5e lore counts", then why are we posting old images from the 3rd edition Player's Handbook and pointing to them as though they're the Code of Hammurabi? One The Lore™ for all time (if it's convenient to whatever I happen to want).

The elves don't have some totally alien features that looks nothing like Caucasian people. They are clearly based on Caucasian people, and slightly modified. I know this is true, because for DECADES the only pictures of elves showed them with white skin. Because they were definitely based on white people originally. "These aren't Caucasian features, these are ELVEN features, see?" doesn't hold any water with me. And literally nothing about the narrative underpinnings of the fictional fantasy elf race changes if you draw a few elves with African facial features. The character of the elven people doesn't change. The history of the elven people doesn't change. The interests and talents of the elven people don't change. Elves do not stop being elves because they have a little different bone structure that happens to be different from how I look.

Let's not even talk about (by that I mean, "let's definitely talk about") the hundreds (maybe thousands?) of different artists' depiction of elves in hundreds and hundreds of official D&D products. If it's in a TSR or WotC book, it's official art. So ANY way that you've seen an elf depicted in ANY D&D book is a valid possible way that elves could look. And if that's the case (it is), then no, elves are not "supposed" to have any particular facial configuration, since they've been drawn a hugely varied number of ways by the "official" artists. You can't just cherry-pick a single, specific old image from two editions ago and say, "This is how they're supposed to be!" And that picture in the 5e PHB totally looks like a regular Caucasian person with very minor alterations to appear slightly more angular. Cut the games with this whole "here's ONE image that proves how elves are SUPPOSED to look, according to The Lore™" thing.

Bucket says that African facial features on elves has no "justification in the lore". It also has no explicit CONTRADICTION in the lore, either. We know there are places in Faerun where African-featured people exist (Durpar, Turmish, Mulhorand, Chult, etc.), so is it not possible that there are also elves in those places, who look as similar to the humans of their region as the "regular" elves where the "regular" people live do? If you saw an African-featured elf on the Sword Coast, could you really not just make the extremely easy mental leap of, "Oh, I guess she comes from a faraway land" or similar?


Quote
"Adding things that breaks the lore SMASH the credibility and the immersion the setting provides to me."

(I added the caps for style.) Okay, wow. I literally can't even respond to this line without creeping dangerously close to that "snark" category, so I'm just gonna leave it alone.

"Completely unnecessary", eh? For whom, exactly? For you, obviously, but the very post that you are responding to proves that it IS something important to SOME people. "This change does nothing for ME, therefore it is completely unnecessary." Interesting take.

Okay, hold the fish taco up. I think I found the part where all of this argument (the one about The Lore™ and such) really starts to break down here. "I wasn't talking about the cheeks". Really now? So The Lore™ is only binding when it fits the exact thing that you want to be true? You can't point at an image and say, "Here, before you, BEHOLD the one true appearance of elves!", and then go back and say, "Oh, but not those cheeks though. Just the other stuff." You think that an elf having a more African-looking bone structure would SMASH The Lore™, but chubby cheeks mystically do not? How does this make any sense -- oh wait, it's just because you LIKE the chubby cheeks. I'm sorry, but "chubby elves" obliterates my immersion and also retroactively ruins every memory I have of playing D&D for 30+ years. And just from looking at that picture, I think I have schizoaffective disorder now*.

* (Ha, psych, I already had it.)

This whole Cheeksgate debacle (as I shall now call it, precisely once) really puts every other argument you've made on shaky ground here. It almost feels like you're being disingenuous or something, but I can't say that for sure. "They have to look like THIS. Except for the cheeks, those can look like whatevs. But don't you DARE broaden that nose or the entire verisimilitude of Faerun is SHATTERED." Come on, are you being serious?


Quote
"I would have a problem though if I would see in the game elven NPC with Asian, African, Caucasian, Latin faces because that would be absolutely lore breaking."

(Cleaned that up just a bit for you.) Um, the game is already chock-full of elves with Caucasian faces. How is it possible that you don't see that? No really, I am genuinely asking. I feel like this has to be some kind of willful blindness or something?


[Linked Image]


If she was any more Caucasian-looking, her name would have to be Karen instead of Kagha. Please come with something better than this.


For my final trick, I'm just gonna drop a quote that is posted on the store pages for every older D&D book for sale online. They posted this EVERYWHERE. They being Wizards of the Coast. Creators of D&D and ACTUAL arbiters of The Lore™.

We (Wizards) recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website does not reflect the values of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end.


Helpful link so you know I didn't make that quote up: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/produc...--QuickStart-Rules-4e?src=also_purchased


The Lore™? SMASHED.

Now that's a lot of words, so I'll just paraphrase: "We, Wizards of the Coast, have come to the wise conclusion that the societal impact of our work is actually a lot more important than strict pedantic adherence to whatever dodgy lore we might have come up with before (and we change it all the time anyway, lol), so we are quite nakedly disavowing some of The Lore™ because it no longer contributes to the kind of real world that we (Wizards) want to live in. In short, and we say this in our official capacity, fuck The Lore™."


But hey, what do I know?


Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 07:49 PM
I really really don't think my post was offensive for some or never meant to be. I also said in one of the pervious post in part i agree with the OP i also stated that elves in BG3 looks like too much human so for me would be a problem if they were too much caucasian to start with.

I would also inform the OP that there are elves with the features she is looking for. Wild Elves Wood Elves is an example. The whole point of arguing i made is that even in 5th edition elf still follow the same facial tracts of the past edition (cut of the eyes and nose) and contrary on what people believe Elves in FR have of different races with different tracts skin colour eyes colour hair colour and is often used as distinguish them from one on another.

"We (Wizards) recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website does not reflect the values of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end."

Diversity is indeed a strenght but amalgamate every race to follow Human Ethnicity does not create diversity in fact the opposite of it. Why a race that has nothing to do with humans have to share human ethnicy? For what? When is stated and is still in vigour what define tracts have? I answer for you no reason at all because when you make everything similiar you don't create diversity you kill it.

I am also here to advocate elves are looking too much human by D&D standardt you counter everything i said with vague statements and retcons happened different edition but while retcons happens the appearance of the elves was never retconned at all.

And again the move you remove what makes a race distinct for the sake of inclusion and make everyone happy is the moment you kill what you are supposed to support "Diversity" for nothing can be different if everything look the same.

I also invite you to understand i am not criticism the OP far from it i can understand perfectly of she feels if she as a player would come to me and express her view like she did on the forum i would answer her:

"Well about elves the ones you are looking for and most likely you would like to play would be Wood Elf or Wild Elf. I would suggest the Wood Elf they even have an interesting background. If that dosn't cut it for you in that case we could move in a homebrew setting so you have the freedom to decide how elves will look like"

Is that simple there is no need to be outraged or offended when offense was not brought in the first place. I do play a lot of different character in my pen and paper session. The conception of elves based on caucasian people comes mostly from Tolkien not D&D. D&D elves may be similiar to tolkien however they are also different.

Elves don't have to resemble humans again is a whole different race i never spoken about cheecks at all in fact i was talking about eyes shape and nose more than cheek.

And again if you did read my answer you know that i would remake the whole head of elves and yes even npcs because Larian potrayal of elves is quite distant from the source material so yes. The fact they appear too much Caucasian or too much Human is a issue to me. Is not like i said the elves must be caucasian i said elves should be elves.

Elves in forgotten realms have not only white skin. Again check what i written. Wild elf. Wood elf. Those are two elven races of the Forgotten Realms that have not white skin.

"Bucket says that African facial features on elves has no "justification in the lore". It also has no explicit CONTRADICTION in the lore, either. We know there are places in Faerun where African-featured people exist (Durpar, Turmish, Mulhorand, Chult, etc.), so is it not possible that there are also elves in those places, who look as similar to the humans of their region as the "regular" elves where the "regular" people live do? If you saw an African-featured elf on the Sword Coast, could you really not just make the extremely easy mental leap of, "Oh, I guess she comes from a faraway land" or similar?"

Again elves are not human if they have mixed genes they are Half Elf. Half elf can of what ethnicy you wish for as one of those parents are human. You are right Faerun have different races when it comes to humans.. ((I love campaigns in Calimshan,Mulhorand.Thay,Rashemen)) but again... Elves are not humans nor are related with humans this is important to understand. If an Elf would have a Human companion and an offspring the offspring will be Half Elf and would retain some Elven distinct feature plus the feature of the other parent.

Now i can maybe see you were warmed up by my answer in the pervious post but i grant to you nothing malicious was intended when it was written. I do enjoy the pictures that were posted however the Ethnicy of them is inrelevant is the features of them that are not elven at all. Mainly the eye shape and the nose that are human shaped and not elvish shaped.((elves have even a slightly elongated skull this is why theyr nose appear longer.))
















Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
too long


That was a very long appeal to authority there, and it just made me want to register in order to respond.
I don't particularly care what WoTC think after they created the absolute blunder that was 4th edition, that clearly signaled that they have neither respect nor love for the setting or good taste in art, they merely went out of their way to appeal to the lowest common denominator to make their products more marketable, and that is a bussiness decision.

I do not respect bussiness decisions when it comes to world building, lore and storytelling.
I am siding against ethnic representation in non-human races simply because they are not human.
I think many already said in this topic that elves sohuld look more elfy, so the gotcha that Kagha looks caucasian is not going to work because well... we don't like that either.

We want elves to be their own distinct group without human baggage being projected upon them, and elves are incredibly diverse in D&D.
If you want to play a darker skinned elf, there are so many choices: wild elves, moon elves, sun elves, drow, etc etc, but the idea that elves are somehow representatives for your real-life grievances (or that they should be representatives) is just a clearly political move that has no place in a fantasy setting. Now I understand that for WoTC everything is about profit margins now, but if you water everything down to realworld politics, you will lose the spirit of this setting and it will become the grey blob that all other settings tend towards. Now of course, maybe the damage is already done and I'm just shouting at the coming abyss, but I thought I put my 2 cents out there, after all why shouldn't I? If nobody cares I might as well just say it anyway.

Also I just have to put this out there...
Why is it that only your side should always get what they want? Because that's what always keeps happening.
You invade a fandom, turn it upside down, totally ruining it for everybody else and you just dismiss every complaint by posturing yourself to be on the right side of history.
I just want to play my damn videogames without harrasment, but apparently everything has to be about how liberals are so righteous and benevolent... except they are not.
When will somebody care about what my side of politics want? When will somebody care that I want to rpeserve some sense of canon? Should I complain and bellyache about how some characters had sex before marriage becasue I'm more of a traditionalist? Would I be listened to? No! I would be ridiculed!

Seriously, why does the entire world has to be about you getting your way while pretending to care about other people? How long will people put up with people like you? This will be my first and last post here so damn the consequences: Screw you and screw people like you, I fucking hate your liberal guts and I hope that one day you will understand what it's like to have everything taken from you so that you know what it's like to be the people you keep dispossessing with your bullshit. We can't even have a realm of fantasy without your fucking meddling.
Fuck you.
Posted By: Braxton Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by Darthruul
I just want to play my damn videogames without harrasment,


You're probably not going to be receptive to this at the moment, but if you consider people asking for more diversity in character customisation as harrasment of you then your perception of reality is unhealthily skewed. Not just for society in general, but for yourself. As your post demonstrates you'll just end up getting extremely angry and fester around an irrational sense of victimhood because you've convinced yourself that people are out to get you. When really, it's nothing to do with you.


Originally Posted by Darthruul
When will somebody care about what my side of politics want? When will somebody care that I want to rpeserve some sense of canon? Should I complain and bellyache about how some characters had sex before marriage becasue I'm more of a traditionalist? Would I be listened to? No! I would be ridiculed!


When? There are many places in the world, and many prominent political parties, that have these kind of views that most western nations consider antiquated. You're not entitled to people caring about your views just because you have them. People will care about your views if they're something worth caring for. And history has pretty firmly shown that views regarding restrictions for premarital sex are not views worth caring about, all they aim to do is rob people of liberty and punish them for unjustifiable reasons.
Posted By: Braxton Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

Okay.

Not gonna talk about politics, not gonna be snarky. (Okay, I don't exactly know where the line is between being "cheeky" and being "snarky", but I'm going to try.)

But I am gonna dig into this some more.



Thank you for doing so smile Great comprehensive post and IMO the snarkiness was merited given the topic matter, and wasn't needlessly aggressive like some others in this thread.
Originally Posted by Darthruul
Seriously, why does the entire world has to be about you getting your way while pretending to care about other people? How long will people put up with people like you? This will be my first and last post here so damn the consequences: Screw you and screw people like you, I fucking hate your liberal guts and I hope that one day you will understand what it's like to have everything taken from you so that you know what it's like to be the people you keep dispossessing with your bullshit. We can't even have a realm of fantasy without your fucking meddling.
Fuck you.

Creating an Alt. account to bypass a suspension is not a great idea.
Lots of people have said it, especially well by black_elk on the first page, but if larian/wotc are going down the road of "elves pretty much look like humans with pointy ears" then there is no reason why then have to just be white people. I already made the point that imo I would like elves to be more alien, like eldar & dark eldar are done in 40k, with facial features which arerather different from humans in general, but since that currently seems unlikely (but not impossible!) I don't see any forgotten realms lore that says that elves, if they are to look like humans with pointy ears, must only look like (reskinned) white people with pointy ears.

I'll say again that I wish elves in were more alien looking and acting in general, which I think would fit well with the idea of elves, but if that is not going to happen there seems to be no reason to get worked up specifically about wanting elves to only have caucasian bone-structure or something like that, rather than say wanting elves to look more wierd and "elvish".

edit: as it stands, with the approach that larian has chosen it feel like player choice should be king, or indeed queen.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Lots of people have said it, especially well by black_elk on the first page, but if larian/wotc are going down the road of "elves pretty much look like humans with pointy ears" then there is no reason why then have to just be white people. I already made the point that imo I would like elves to be more alien, like eldar & dark eldar are done in 40k, with facial features which arerather different from humans in general, but since that currently seems unlikely (but not impossible!) I don't see any forgotten realms lore that says that elves, if they are to look like humans with pointy ears, must only look like (reskinned) white people with pointy ears.

I'll say again that I wish elves in were more alien looking and acting in general, which I think would fit well with the idea of elves, but if that is not going to happen there seems to be no reason to get worked up specifically about wanting elves to only have caucasian bone-structure or something like that, rather than say wanting elves to look more wierd and "elvish".

edit: as it stands, with the approach that larian has chosen it feel like player choice should be king, or indeed queen.


And sadly that approach is killing the unique tracts of a race. I would love for Larian to listen to this.
Originally Posted by Rieline
I really really don't think my post was offensive for some or never meant to be. I also said in one of the pervious post in part i agree with the OP i also stated that elves in BG3 looks like too much human so for me would be a problem if they were too much caucasian to start with.

I would also inform the OP that there are elves with the features she is looking for. Wild Elves Wood Elves is an example. The whole point of arguing i made is that even in 5th edition elf still follow the same facial tracts of the past edition (cut of the eyes and nose) and contrary on what people believe Elves in FR have of different races with different tracts skin colour eyes colour hair colour and is often used as distinguish them from one on another.

"We (Wizards) recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website does not reflect the values of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end."

Diversity is indeed a strenght but amalgamate every race to follow Human Ethnicity does not create diversity in fact the opposite of it. Why a race that has nothing to do with humans have to share human ethnicy? For what? When is stated and is still in vigour what define tracts have? I answer for you no reason at all because when you make everything similiar you don't create diversity you kill it.

I am also here to advocate elves are looking too much human by D&D standardt you counter everything i said with vague statements and retcons happened different edition but while retcons happens the appearance of the elves was never retconned at all.

And again the move you remove what makes a race distinct for the sake of inclusion and make everyone happy is the moment you kill what you are supposed to support "Diversity" for nothing can be different if everything look the same.

I also invite you to understand i am not criticism the OP far from it i can understand perfectly of she feels if she as a player would come to me and express her view like she did on the forum i would answer her:

"Well about elves the ones you are looking for and most likely you would like to play would be Wood Elf or Wild Elf. I would suggest the Wood Elf they even have an interesting background. If that dosn't cut it for you in that case we could move in a homebrew setting so you have the freedom to decide how elves will look like"

Is that simple there is no need to be outraged or offended when offense was not brought in the first place. I do play a lot of different character in my pen and paper session. The conception of elves based on caucasian people comes mostly from Tolkien not D&D. D&D elves may be similiar to tolkien however they are also different.

Elves don't have to resemble humans again is a whole different race i never spoken about cheecks at all in fact i was talking about eyes shape and nose more than cheek.

And again if you did read my answer you know that i would remake the whole head of elves and yes even npcs because Larian potrayal of elves is quite distant from the source material so yes. The fact they appear too much Caucasian or too much Human is a issue to me. Is not like i said the elves must be caucasian i said elves should be elves.

Elves in forgotten realms have not only white skin. Again check what i written. Wild elf. Wood elf. Those are two elven races of the Forgotten Realms that have not white skin.

"Bucket says that African facial features on elves has no "justification in the lore". It also has no explicit CONTRADICTION in the lore, either. We know there are places in Faerun where African-featured people exist (Durpar, Turmish, Mulhorand, Chult, etc.), so is it not possible that there are also elves in those places, who look as similar to the humans of their region as the "regular" elves where the "regular" people live do? If you saw an African-featured elf on the Sword Coast, could you really not just make the extremely easy mental leap of, "Oh, I guess she comes from a faraway land" or similar?"

Again elves are not human if they have mixed genes they are Half Elf. Half elf can of what ethnicy you wish for as one of those parents are human. You are right Faerun have different races when it comes to humans.. ((I love campaigns in Calimshan,Mulhorand.Thay,Rashemen)) but again... Elves are not humans nor are related with humans this is important to understand. If an Elf would have a Human companion and an offspring the offspring will be Half Elf and would retain some Elven distinct feature plus the feature of the other parent.

Now i can maybe see you were warmed up by my answer in the pervious post but i grant to you nothing malicious was intended when it was written. I do enjoy the pictures that were posted however the Ethnicy of them is inrelevant is the features of them that are not elven at all. Mainly the eye shape and the nose that are human shaped and not elvish shaped.((elves have even a slightly elongated skull this is why theyr nose appear longer.)



Yeah, Rieline, It's fine. I don't think you're being hostile, or malicious, or offensive (at least not overtly so), or racist, or a bad person. What I think you MIGHT be being, is intellectually dishonest. But I can't read your mind, so I could be wrong. And even if you are, I'm sure you're not doing it on purpose. People fail to see their own biases all the time, people unknowingly make specious claims to support what they want to be true all the time. It doesn't make you The Enemy.

It's not your opinions that I object to, it's just the poor quality of your arguments for them.

But I've said my piece, so at this point I'm just gonna agree to disagree with you. Feel free to continue repeating your same points over and over, or whatever you want to do. I ain't mad at ya.
I'm just saying before I speak that I am indeed a person that usually draws my elven characters to look more humanish, and am very loose with a lot of lore aspects, so I'm sure that I have a bias that others don't have.

I agree that there should be more face shapes/ adjustments in the menu, I think it would make the character creator much more versatile and fun! Maybe there could be face options that are traditionally elven, more humanlike, and maybe something in the middle. I understand creating your ideal self in a game like this; the menu is really fun and it's cool making a fantasy version of yourself to play around with!! I'm hoping that as development goes further, deeper customization options will be added for all of the races.
^^^ This this!
Posted By: Dexai Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 10:43 PM
I love that you just agreed with yourself wink
Posted By: A Clown Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 04/12/20 11:02 PM
Would love to see more features that include almost a "persian or arab" look, I use this loosely as it's such a variety in itself but I'm not entirely sure how to express this as I'm not great at explaining things! But I'll give it a good ol go

I would just like to see more males and female with more wide set or hooked noses, even narrow noses! (I understand that is not a feature all persians and arabs have but it is what a majority do)

(I know I just specified a race of people but I dont want to make this about that I just want to bring up a personal issue I have with the lack of "persian" or "arab" features)

I just find that a majority of the options are quite eurocentric which is obviously not a negative thing at all (since again that is a variety in itself and that's always good to include options so I'm by no means suggesting take any of these features out) but it's almost disheartening to see that there isnt many options for POC!

I understand it's still EA and they might add more, (I hope) I just want to express that if they do it would be nice to feel included, even if it's just as simple as adding a new head with a more defined nose!
I understand that it's only character creation and I shouldn't be too worried or concerned because the game itself is remarkable! But again it's nice to feel included since I hardly see any game characters with similar features to my own!
Originally Posted by Rieline
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Braxton
It's the work of just a couple of seconds on google to find plentiful great material on non-white elves. Given that the game already has such a diverse range of skin, hair and eye colours/patterns it would be great to have some new faces to be able to make characters as awesome as this. Hope Larian listens to this feedback smile


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/52/5e/0d/525e0d42e28485799ad11293146086b7.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fc/d5/77/fcd57742b274d36150d461caa07299cc.png
https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/asset...clarence-bateman-blackelf.jpg?1533154696
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-42cb4de8912149553a0931d4f50d758f
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ee/ab/5a/eeab5a8ceb3ae12888cb3fc4de8e55d4.jpg



Those are all awesome! I'd love to see some elves like this in the game.


Those pictures are very nice however no i don't want to see faces like that on elves. Rotate a bit more the eyes make the nose a little longer and they would be fitting for wild elf or wood elf tho. The second one all it neded is just a little inward rotation on the eye line and would be perfect.


This doesn’t bother me hugely, but I agree that these don’t really look elven enough to me (face shape wise). In a world where half-elves exist, I think elves should be more distinct. These all feel like half-elves to me. I think the LOTR movies could be partly to blame – because of the difficulties of casting, many of the elves weren’t at all otherworldly. The two actual half-elves in those movies (Arwen and Elrond) were basically just humans with slightly pointy ears.
Posted By: Karuna Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 05/12/20 12:30 AM
Just popping in to say I absolutely agree with the OP! It all comes down to player choice, and if you're going to trade on a vibrant and varied Character Creator, it can't hurt to add more choice officially, not just leave it up to Modders. (I say this with complete faith that there's more faces in the works, I know the racial flags I've seen, but I do hope there's more added to the current races too!)

Even the new LotR game is looking to diversify its elves because they realised it's past time to put away the childish argument that 'ethereal = white'. It took World of Warcraft until this very expac to finally allow Blood Elves, a race which worships the Sun, dark skin--but they did it! And people are still crying Lore over it! They worship the SUN, people! The big tanning orb in the SKY!

There will, unfortunately, always be people that complain their immersion is ruined if they see a black elf, or an asian elf, or anything other than a 70s Ralph Bakshi elf. They cling to, as already said a hundred times above and even by Wizards themselves, a wholly outdated version of fictional race. It's not impossible to translate black features, asian features, middle eastern features into 'elven' looks, but at it's core:

Some of these races exist. They have real effects on real people, and having the tangible opportunity to make a pretty, ethereal creature look like someone you could feasibly be in fantasy can only further invite you into a space you've historically been underrepresented in for too long.

Some of these races are not real, and they do not experience any real world consequences to their race being bickered and hissed over. Because they do not exist. They can be anything you imagine them to be, and if not you, anything anyone else can imagine them to be too.

Anyway last point: I'm Indian and Larian if you're out there: More! Hook! Noses! Please!
Posted By: Piff Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 05/12/20 12:45 AM
Gosh this thread has sure been a read....

I'd like to add my vote to the "Elves should look less human" crowd. I know it's the wrong franchise, but I actually loved the way Elder Scrolls did their Mer (except in oblivion, but every person in that game had pudding-face disease, and you can't convince me otherwise), they have very dramatic exaggerated features that are quite distinctly not-human, and they come in a big range of non-human skin tones too.

But, failing that, if our Elves in this game are going to look more human, then I'd love for there to be more options and appearances. I'll never hate there being more choices to make characters.
Posted By: Eddiar Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 05/12/20 12:48 AM
Just give them tilted eyes.
Problem solved.
Man, one good thing about Star Wars and sci-fi, people don't try to inject diversification for the sake of diversification into everything nearly as much. I guess because making the argument that twileks, a fictional race with their own enstablished look, should have asian or african features, or be black or brown, all for inclusivity's sake would be downright silly.

Let fictional races be fictional races with their own established flavours, in other words.
Posted By: gaymer Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 05/12/20 01:11 AM
I'm not satisfied with the facial options presented so far in almost every race. They are all lacking and none of them have anything that I really enjoy.

It's a bit sad.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 05/12/20 01:34 AM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Rieline
I really really don't think my post was offensive for some or never meant to be. I also said in one of the pervious post in part i agree with the OP i also stated that elves in BG3 looks like too much human so for me would be a problem if they were too much caucasian to start with.

I would also inform the OP that there are elves with the features she is looking for. Wild Elves Wood Elves is an example. The whole point of arguing i made is that even in 5th edition elf still follow the same facial tracts of the past edition (cut of the eyes and nose) and contrary on what people believe Elves in FR have of different races with different tracts skin colour eyes colour hair colour and is often used as distinguish them from one on another.

"We (Wizards) recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website does not reflect the values of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end."

Diversity is indeed a strenght but amalgamate every race to follow Human Ethnicity does not create diversity in fact the opposite of it. Why a race that has nothing to do with humans have to share human ethnicy? For what? When is stated and is still in vigour what define tracts have? I answer for you no reason at all because when you make everything similiar you don't create diversity you kill it.

I am also here to advocate elves are looking too much human by D&D standardt you counter everything i said with vague statements and retcons happened different edition but while retcons happens the appearance of the elves was never retconned at all.

And again the move you remove what makes a race distinct for the sake of inclusion and make everyone happy is the moment you kill what you are supposed to support "Diversity" for nothing can be different if everything look the same.

I also invite you to understand i am not criticism the OP far from it i can understand perfectly of she feels if she as a player would come to me and express her view like she did on the forum i would answer her:

"Well about elves the ones you are looking for and most likely you would like to play would be Wood Elf or Wild Elf. I would suggest the Wood Elf they even have an interesting background. If that dosn't cut it for you in that case we could move in a homebrew setting so you have the freedom to decide how elves will look like"

Is that simple there is no need to be outraged or offended when offense was not brought in the first place. I do play a lot of different character in my pen and paper session. The conception of elves based on caucasian people comes mostly from Tolkien not D&D. D&D elves may be similiar to tolkien however they are also different.

Elves don't have to resemble humans again is a whole different race i never spoken about cheecks at all in fact i was talking about eyes shape and nose more than cheek.

And again if you did read my answer you know that i would remake the whole head of elves and yes even npcs because Larian potrayal of elves is quite distant from the source material so yes. The fact they appear too much Caucasian or too much Human is a issue to me. Is not like i said the elves must be caucasian i said elves should be elves.

Elves in forgotten realms have not only white skin. Again check what i written. Wild elf. Wood elf. Those are two elven races of the Forgotten Realms that have not white skin.

"Bucket says that African facial features on elves has no "justification in the lore". It also has no explicit CONTRADICTION in the lore, either. We know there are places in Faerun where African-featured people exist (Durpar, Turmish, Mulhorand, Chult, etc.), so is it not possible that there are also elves in those places, who look as similar to the humans of their region as the "regular" elves where the "regular" people live do? If you saw an African-featured elf on the Sword Coast, could you really not just make the extremely easy mental leap of, "Oh, I guess she comes from a faraway land" or similar?"

Again elves are not human if they have mixed genes they are Half Elf. Half elf can of what ethnicy you wish for as one of those parents are human. You are right Faerun have different races when it comes to humans.. ((I love campaigns in Calimshan,Mulhorand.Thay,Rashemen)) but again... Elves are not humans nor are related with humans this is important to understand. If an Elf would have a Human companion and an offspring the offspring will be Half Elf and would retain some Elven distinct feature plus the feature of the other parent.

Now i can maybe see you were warmed up by my answer in the pervious post but i grant to you nothing malicious was intended when it was written. I do enjoy the pictures that were posted however the Ethnicy of them is inrelevant is the features of them that are not elven at all. Mainly the eye shape and the nose that are human shaped and not elvish shaped.((elves have even a slightly elongated skull this is why theyr nose appear longer.)



Yeah, Rieline, It's fine. I don't think you're being hostile, or malicious, or offensive (at least not overtly so), or racist, or a bad person. What I think you MIGHT be being, is intellectually dishonest. But I can't read your mind, so I could be wrong. And even if you are, I'm sure you're not doing it on purpose. People fail to see their own biases all the time, people unknowingly make specious claims to support what they want to be true all the time. It doesn't make you The Enemy.

It's not your opinions that I object to, it's just the poor quality of your arguments for them.

But I've said my piece, so at this point I'm just gonna agree to disagree with you. Feel free to continue repeating your same points over and over, or whatever you want to do. I ain't mad at ya.



I am not of course repeating myself again it cold be that my english is not perfect because is not the primary languange however i may give you a friendly advise for the future. Debating and disagree on something is perfectly fine as long every part does it respectfully i noticed you got maybe a little upset and this is not how a conversation between civil people should go you could think i am biased or intellectually dishonest however i am not judging you for thinking differently than me if you think this about me just after an exchange of a few words well i don't think will be healthly to keep arguing and talking.

My reasons are under the nose of everyone that knows well D&D or at least have some degree of knowledge about it. The main reason i oppose to this idea in the end is just one logic one. Elves are not human and they never been human apply human enthnicy to elves to have more inclusivity have no sense at the same manner the elves heads that are currently in the game for bot players and npc have no sense.

What's next?
"I don't feel represented by Githianki heads i want more latin faces for them that don't have a bat upturned nose or is not diverse enough?"
or
"I want to make an Halfling that is tall like an human?"

I would also not put in doubt the moral integrity of who disagree with me.
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Man, one good thing about Star Wars and sci-fi, people don't try to inject diversification for the sake of diversification into everything nearly as much. I guess because making the argument that twileks, a fictional race with their own enstablished look, should have asian or african features, or be black or brown, all for inclusivity's sake would be downright silly.

Let fictional races be fictional races with their own established flavours, in other words.



Welp, they didn't have to add African features to twi'leks, because that "established look" you mention was ALREADY African. Yeah, the very first twi'lek character in Star Wars was Oola from Return of the Jedi, and she was played by a Black woman. Good try, though.
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Man, one good thing about Star Wars and sci-fi, people don't try to inject diversification for the sake of diversification into everything nearly as much. I guess because making the argument that twileks, a fictional race with their own enstablished look, should have asian or african features, or be black or brown, all for inclusivity's sake would be downright silly.

Let fictional races be fictional races with their own established flavours, in other words.



Welp, they didn't have to add African features to twi'leks, because that "established look" you mention was ALREADY African. Yeah, the very first twi'lek character in Star Wars was Oola from Return of the Jedi, and she was played by a Black woman. Good try, though.


Wowee, then white people gotta fight for their own inclusivity. You can enlist asians, arabs and the deer guy from twitch. Fight the good fight and tell me how it goes.
Posted By: Braxton Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 05/12/20 09:55 AM
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Man, one good thing about Star Wars and sci-fi, people don't try to inject diversification for the sake of diversification into everything nearly as much.


If you've read the thread or even thought about the issue for more than ten seconds it should be clear that "diversification for the sake of diversification" is not what is going on here (and it's laughable that you're holding up the entire genre of science fiction as though it hasn't also had it's issues with representation). If you really want to peddle whataboutism might as well do it to Wizards of the Coast:

Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is strength, for only a diverse group of adventurers can overcome the many challenges a D&D story presents. In that spirit, making D&D as welcoming and inclusive as possible has moved to the forefront of our priorities over the last six years. We’d like to share with you what we’ve been doing, and what we plan to do in the future to address legacy D&D content that does not reflect who we are today. We recognize that doing this isn’t about getting to a place where we can rest on our laurels but continuing to head in the right direction. We feel that being transparent about it is the best way to let our community help us to continue to calibrate our efforts.

One of the explicit design goals of 5th edition D&D is to depict humanity in all its beautiful diversity by depicting characters who represent an array of ethnicities, gender identities, sexual orientations, and beliefs. We want everyone to feel at home around the game table and to see positive reflections of themselves within our products. “Human” in D&D means everyone, not just fantasy versions of northern Europeans, and the D&D community is now more diverse than it’s ever been.


https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/diversity-and-dnd

Originally Posted by Rieline

I am not of course repeating myself again it cold be that my english is not perfect because is not the primary languange however i may give you a friendly advise for the future. Debating and disagree on something is perfectly fine as long every part does it respectfully i noticed you got maybe a little upset and this is not how a conversation between civil people should go


Some friendly advice back; there is nothing wrong with people getting upset or angry at certain views, and telling people to "be civil" or "calm down" is a common tactic to try to discredit them. Just look at Colin Kaepernick who protested civil rights in an incredibly calm, non-disruptive way and yet he was hounded for not being respectful or civil.

Originally Posted by Rieline
My reasons are under the nose of everyone that knows well D&D or at least have some degree of knowledge about it. The main reason i oppose to this idea in the end is just one logic one. Elves are not human and they never been human apply human enthnicy to elves to have more inclusivity have no sense at the same manner the elves heads that are currently in the game for bot players and npc have no sense.


Elves are not presented as aliens, as has been pointed out if any of these elves walked down the street, minus the ears, you'd think nothing of it. If Larian had decided to create novel elven facial features that don't align with any RL ethnicities then you'd have more of a leg to stand on. But they've not done that, they've not indicated they're going to do that, they've made elves with caucasian features. In which case the RL inclusivity argument definitely holds. See above for the statement from wizards.

Originally Posted by Rieline
What's next?
"I don't feel represented by Githianki heads i want more latin faces for them that don't have a bat upturned nose or is not diverse enough?"
or
"I want to make an Halfling that is tall like an human?"

I would also not put in doubt the moral integrity of who disagree with me.


Your moral integrity isn' in question because you disagree, it's because of how you disagree. Seriously, a slippery slope argument? Asking for a more diverse range of real ethnicities in races that have clearly been based on a real ethnicity is not at all the same as asking that species that do have significantly novel features appear human.
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Man, one good thing about Star Wars and sci-fi, people don't try to inject diversification for the sake of diversification into everything nearly as much. I guess because making the argument that twileks, a fictional race with their own enstablished look, should have asian or african features, or be black or brown, all for inclusivity's sake would be downright silly.

Let fictional races be fictional races with their own established flavours, in other words.



Welp, they didn't have to add African features to twi'leks, because that "established look" you mention was ALREADY African. Yeah, the very first twi'lek character in Star Wars was Oola from Return of the Jedi, and she was played by a Black woman. Good try, though.


Not that it makes any difference, but Bib Fortuna is a twi’lek too!
Originally Posted by Braxton
[quote=Innateagle]Asking for a more diverse range of real ethnicities in races that have clearly been based on a real ethnicity is not at all the same as asking that species that do have significantly novel features appear human.


If I understand your point correctly, the argument could also be made that elves have 'significantly novel features'; elongated faces, pointed ears, slanted eyes, overtly fine features...or at least as far as I am aware. In essence, they aren't human but I appreciate visually there are of course similarities but that could be said of dozens of other races, anything with 2 eyes, 2 ears, a nose and a mouth.

I have mentioned it several times but I find the male elven heads far too human in this game.
Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Man, one good thing about Star Wars and sci-fi, people don't try to inject diversification for the sake of diversification into everything nearly as much.


If you've read the thread or even thought about the issue for more than ten seconds it should be clear that "diversification for the sake of diversification" is not what is going on here (and it's laughable that you're holding up the entire genre of science fiction as though it hasn't also had it's issues with representation). If you really want to peddle whataboutism might as well do it to Wizards of the Coast:

Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is strength, for only a diverse group of adventurers can overcome the many challenges a D&D story presents. In that spirit, making D&D as welcoming and inclusive as possible has moved to the forefront of our priorities over the last six years. We’d like to share with you what we’ve been doing, and what we plan to do in the future to address legacy D&D content that does not reflect who we are today. We recognize that doing this isn’t about getting to a place where we can rest on our laurels but continuing to head in the right direction. We feel that being transparent about it is the best way to let our community help us to continue to calibrate our efforts.

One of the explicit design goals of 5th edition D&D is to depict humanity in all its beautiful diversity by depicting characters who represent an array of ethnicities, gender identities, sexual orientations, and beliefs. We want everyone to feel at home around the game table and to see positive reflections of themselves within our products. “Human” in D&D means everyone, not just fantasy versions of northern Europeans, and the D&D community is now more diverse than it’s ever been.


https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/diversity-and-dnd



No idea who the wizard of the coast are, but i'm glad you care enough about their opinions that you present theirs as if they were your own. You probably should have searched for a better quote, though, since that one specifically talks about the diversity of the 'human' race in DnD. 'Human', which is fine.

I admit, though, i haven't thought about it for more than ten seconds. Probably because i'm a black person who feels more like a person than black, and therefore i don't feel the need to self-insert or be represented in every piece of media i come across to validate myself or feel better about the color of my skin.

But hey, if you feel like african high elves or dark skinned rattataki are needed to validate people, cool. I know i said i'm a black man but i actually identify as a caucasian drow, so next fight for that too.
I think elves really need to be made to look more like elves, because they just look human and it causes a lot of confusion.
Also, aren't there elven subraces that satisfy what OP wants? I'm pretty sure there must be at elast a few of them.
Posted By: Ixal Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 05/12/20 11:25 AM
Originally Posted by Innateagle

No idea who the wizard of the coast are,


The owner of D&D.
They recently went on a full on "inclusive" spree after several negative reports about them.
That includes no more evil races because orcs were a stand in for black people, (or Asians, people are not sure which, but it has to be racist) and you can't have them be always evil. They also started to put warning labels in all their older books sold online that they might trigger someone. And in their newest book which represents their vision for the future of the brand you can freely swap ability adjustments from races because its racist that people are defined by their biology.
Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by Innateagle

No idea who the wizard of the coast are,


The owner of D&D.
They recently went on a full on "inclusive" spree after several negative reports about them.
That includes no more evil races because orcs were a stand in for black people, (or Asians, people are not sure which, but it has to be racist) and you can't have them be always evil. They also started to put warning labels in all their older books sold online that they might trigger someone. And in their newest book which represents their vision for the future of the brand you can freely swap ability adjustments from races because its racist that people are defined by their biology.


Ah, gotcha. They got 'woke'. My angtsy teenage self would be sad, i really lived the half-orc ghetto dream in the original BGs.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 05/12/20 01:10 PM
I understand the argument on making the elves look less human, but what features would they need to include? From my idea I know elves are a humanoid race (same with a lot of the dnd races)

But what could be classed as an elf feature? Super upright eyes? That's still a human feature a lot of people have,

Youd have to make them look completely alien to not look human.
Posted By: Zellin Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 05/12/20 01:19 PM
Originally Posted by A Clown
I understand the argument on making the elves look less human, but what features would they need to include? From my idea I know elves are a humanoid race (same with a lot of the dnd races)

But what could be classed as an elf feature? Super upright eyes? That's still a human feature a lot of people have,

Youd have to make them look completely alien to not look human.

They are not supposed to look super alien, but they supposed to have "lighter" skeleton:
Narrow noses
Narrow chins
Slightly androgynous slim body. Consider that while with 170cm healthy weight for a human is 60kg, for an elf it's 50. And elven fey ancestors had no gender.
And yes, tilted eyes not in human way. A human would still have quite straight brow line, elves supposed to have that tilted too.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 05/12/20 01:47 PM
Don't touch the elves, they look great. Just make humans uglier!
Posted By: Piff Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 05/12/20 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Ah, gotcha. They got 'woke'.


More like: they got bullied into compliance by a twitter cancel mob. Wizards have recently had a bunch of bad run ins with the twitter cancel mobs over different things and it's clearly starting to affect them.

All the actual diversity and work that wizards have put into leaving the old neckbeard stereotypes behind for 5e behind was already done, but it's literally never enough for groups like this, no amount of effort will ever be enough and no work will ever come up to their impossible standards. Groups like this have already gotten works by actual POC authors writing about their own lives and experiences dropped from publishing companies because they weren't doing it "right" enough. Any kind of works that come out for the diverse audience are picked apart piece by piece until someone finds something even slightly wrong that some person did or is doing and then the hashtags begin. Unfortunately we are now at a stage where people tanking you on social media spreads without consideration for fact checking or context and this does affect brands and their ability to operate.

I really get quite annoyed by the whole "Orcs/Drow are stand ins for black people" argument, because it didn't hold weight in the Tolkien circles, (because the orcs based off mongols, not MENA people, not that that's any better, really) and it shouldn't hold weight in D&D, because, amazingly, we already had black people in D&D and they are usually called humans, but here we are.

In conclusion: Twitter is a hellsite and only one rung above the youtube comments section; and cancel culture is just groupthink 2.0 and needs to fucking stop.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 05/12/20 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Don't touch the elves, they look great. Just make humans uglier!


Agreed! I like the way the elves look in this! It's almost like DAI
Originally Posted by Piff
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Ah, gotcha. They got 'woke'.


More like: they got bullied into compliance by a twitter cancel mob. Wizards have recently had a bunch of bad run ins with the twitter cancel mobs over different things and it's clearly starting to affect them.


Isn't that what getting 'woke' means nowadays?
Posted By: Maerd Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 05/12/20 09:46 PM
I'm so tired of the fake outrage about 'representation' of some humans subgroups in alien races. What's next? Demanding 2 meters tall Korean-looking dwarfs because it doesn't represent 'me'? Non-human races are not supposed to represent you as a player in any form. All non-human races should not look human. Pick humans or half-humans if you want to model yourself. Nowadays many companies think the 'representation' will make their games good. It won't. They should focus on the plot and scenarios and ignore people with ridiculous demands.


Originally Posted by A Clown

Agreed! I like the way the elves look in this! It's almost like DAI

DAI is garbage, nothing to be worth aiming to.

Originally Posted by Nyloth
Don't touch the elves, they look great. Just make humans uglier!

No, they don't look great. They are just humans in BG3.
I’m actually surprised Larian didn’t dial up the otherworldliness of elves, considering their own take on elves in Divinity is quite alien in appearance.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 05/12/20 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by Maerd
I'm so tired of the fake outrage about 'representation' of some humans subgroups in alien races. What's next? Demanding 2 meters tall Korean-looking dwarfs because it doesn't represent 'me'? Non-human races are not supposed to represent you as a player in any form. All non-human races should not look human. Pick humans or half-humans if you want to model yourself. Nowadays many companies think the 'representation' will make their games good. It won't. They should focus on the plot and scenarios and ignore people with ridiculous demands.


Originally Posted by A Clown

Agreed! I like the way the elves look in this! It's almost like DAI

DAI is garbage, nothing to be worth aiming to.

Originally Posted by Nyloth
Don't touch the elves, they look great. Just make humans uglier!

No, they don't look great. They are just humans in BG3.


I dont want to start anything but I think you're missing the point, its not "fake" outrage! There is no outrage! It's just a simple request to add more diverse features because yes it is nice to be represented! Especially nowadays where we have to tools and the knowledge to be more inclusive! You can still focus on the plot and scenarios since that is a big project! But it is also the little things that make a game enjoyable! Again it is a small request and suggestion! If its offered to put in our ideas why not include the small ones?

It's just a small request please dont get heated at people who just want to see more representation! There is no place for anger just friendly suggestions smile

Also personally I like DAI you could pick from a range of diverse features and edit it! I usually dont like character creation that goes into full detail but it felt nice to pick and choose!
how dare you like X when I do not like X.
Posted By: Ixal Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 05/12/20 10:33 PM
Originally Posted by A Clown
I understand the argument on making the elves look less human, but what features would they need to include? From my idea I know elves are a humanoid race (same with a lot of the dnd races)

But what could be classed as an elf feature? Super upright eyes? That's still a human feature a lot of people have,

Youd have to make them look completely alien to not look human.


This is not the first thread about elves. The previous ones had some examples from earlier D&D books (3E)
Basically their faces had sharper lines and were more angular than humans.
[Linked Image][Linked Image]
Posted By: Maerd Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 05/12/20 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by A Clown
You can still focus on the plot and scenarios since that is a big project! But it is also the little things that make a game enjoyable! Again it is a small request and suggestion! If its offered to put in our ideas why not include the small ones?

It's just a small request please dont get heated at people who just want to see more representation! There is no place for anger just friendly suggestions smile


And why exactly you want representation in the different species of humanoids? There are humans in the game that can represent exactly you. Why all humanoid species should look like you?
Posted By: A Clown Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 05/12/20 11:17 PM
Originally Posted by Maerd
Originally Posted by A Clown
You can still focus on the plot and scenarios since that is a big project! But it is also the little things that make a game enjoyable! Again it is a small request and suggestion! If its offered to put in our ideas why not include the small ones?

It's just a small request please dont get heated at people who just want to see more representation! There is no place for anger just friendly suggestions smile


And why exactly you want representation in the different species of humanoids? There are humans in the game that can represent exactly you. Why all humanoid species should look like you?


Bro, what I'm saying is the non human species features just dont have enough diverse options! And I'm not saying it should 100% like me jeez that would be so freaky man! I'm saying it would be nice to have representation! That is all my chum!

Even with non human races you can still include diverse and a range of features WITHOUT making them look too human! That is all!

I dont think you realise how much representation matters man! Even with the human heads the options feel quite naff and you dont have many options!
Posted By: A Clown Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 05/12/20 11:19 PM
Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by A Clown
I understand the argument on making the elves look less human, but what features would they need to include? From my idea I know elves are a humanoid race (same with a lot of the dnd races)

But what could be classed as an elf feature? Super upright eyes? That's still a human feature a lot of people have,

Youd have to make them look completely alien to not look human.


This is not the first thread about elves. The previous ones had some examples from earlier D&D books (3E)
Basically their faces had sharper lines and were more angular than humans.
[Linked Image][Linked Image]


That looks incredibly stunning! Thank you! Can definitely see a lot of options to play with!
Originally Posted by A Clown
Originally Posted by Maerd
Originally Posted by A Clown
You can still focus on the plot and scenarios since that is a big project! But it is also the little things that make a game enjoyable! Again it is a small request and suggestion! If its offered to put in our ideas why not include the small ones?

It's just a small request please dont get heated at people who just want to see more representation! There is no place for anger just friendly suggestions smile


And why exactly you want representation in the different species of humanoids? There are humans in the game that can represent exactly you. Why all humanoid species should look like you?


Bro, what I'm saying is the non human species features just dont have enough diverse options! And I'm not saying it should 100% like me jeez that would be so freaky man! I'm saying it would be nice to have representation! That is all my chum!

Even with non human races you can still include diverse and a range of features WITHOUT making them look too human! That is all!

I dont think you realise how much representation matters man! Even with the human heads the options feel quite naff and you dont have many options!


Do you play halflings?
Posted By: Maerd Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 05/12/20 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by A Clown

Bro, what I'm saying is the non human species features just dont have enough diverse options! And I'm not saying it should 100% like me jeez that would be so freaky man! I'm saying it would be nice to have representation! That is all my chum!

Even with non human races you can still include diverse and a range of features WITHOUT making them look too human! That is all!

I dont think you realise how much representation matters man! Even with the human heads the options feel quite naff and you dont have many options!


From the pure biological point of view elves should NOT be diverse. Diversity happen when genes recombine and mutate, which happens every next generation. The shorter is the life span of the species the greater the diversity. According to the lore, elves are virtually immortal therefore they don't have necessary recombination happening, therefore, they should be more look-alike than any other species. If anything, they look way more diverse than it makes sense given circumstances.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 12:02 AM
Originally Posted by Maerd
Originally Posted by A Clown

Bro, what I'm saying is the non human species features just dont have enough diverse options! And I'm not saying it should 100% like me jeez that would be so freaky man! I'm saying it would be nice to have representation! That is all my chum!

Even with non human races you can still include diverse and a range of features WITHOUT making them look too human! That is all!

I dont think you realise how much representation matters man! Even with the human heads the options feel quite naff and you dont have many options!


From the pure biological point of view elves should NOT be diverse. Diversity happen when genes recombine and mutate, which happens every next generation. The shorter is the life span of the species the greater the diversity. According to the lore, elves are virtually immortal therefore they don't have necessary recombination happening, therefore, they should be more look-alike than any other species. If anything, they look way more diverse than it makes sense given circumstances.


Youre right there! but all elves cant look exactly the same! Dont forget elves have different sub races and races! I'm pretty sure a sun high elf is gonna look a little different from a moon high elf! And a drow is gonna be completely different looking than a wood elf! Otherwise it's just boring! You need to be able to tell the different variations and why not do that by exploring diversity since there is a wide range of sub races! smile
Posted By: Piff Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 12:29 AM
Originally Posted by A Clown
Youre right there! but all elves cant look exactly the same!


Yes, in fact there should be a lot of difference in the colour palettes of our Elf subraces. Sun Elves are warm toned, so golds, reds and coppers. Moon Elves are cool toned, so whites, blacks and blues. Wood Elves are browns, greens and bronzes. And Drow are greys, blacks, and silvers. Although that last one has varied a lot by edition, let us not forget the eggplant purple Drow of old.
Posted By: Maerd Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 04:31 AM
Originally Posted by A Clown

Youre right there! but all elves cant look exactly the same! Dont forget elves have different sub races and races! I'm pretty sure a sun high elf is gonna look a little different from a moon high elf! And a drow is gonna be completely different looking than a wood elf! Otherwise it's just boring! You need to be able to tell the different variations and why not do that by exploring diversity since there is a wide range of sub races! smile

While they shouldn't be exactly the same, due to immortality many of them literally brothers and sisters, because older elves are more experiences, therefore, more powerful, and, thus, tend to survive, live longer, and produce much more offsprings. The once who die are usually young and inexperienced, which even more tilt the diversity towards look-alikeness. Elven subrases are fine as long as each subrace looks very similar to each other within that subrace. But whatever they are, they should NOT look like humans with pointy ears. The original poster complained that elves are lacking African, Mesoamerican and other human specific features... which is why I'm totally against such 'representation'. For those there are humans in the game. Elves should represent just elves and look non-human.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 05:06 AM
Originally Posted by Maerd
I'm so tired of the fake outrage about 'representation' of some humans subgroups in alien races. What's next? Demanding 2 meters tall Korean-looking dwarfs because it doesn't represent 'me'? Non-human races are not supposed to represent you as a player in any form. All non-human races should not look human. Pick humans or half-humans if you want to model yourself. Nowadays many companies think the 'representation' will make their games good. It won't. They should focus on the plot and scenarios and ignore people with ridiculous demands.


Originally Posted by A Clown

Agreed! I like the way the elves look in this! It's almost like DAI

DAI is garbage, nothing to be worth aiming to.

Originally Posted by Nyloth
Don't touch the elves, they look great. Just make humans uglier!

No, they don't look great. They are just humans in BG3.



It was a joke, but actually I'm completely happy with Astarion's appearance and don't want to see him more "alien". And yes, if you change elves in character creator, you will probably have to change companions as well. I am absolutely against it.
Originally Posted by Braxton
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Man, one good thing about Star Wars and sci-fi, people don't try to inject diversification for the sake of diversification into everything nearly as much.


If you've read the thread or even thought about the issue for more than ten seconds it should be clear that "diversification for the sake of diversification" is not what is going on here (and it's laughable that you're holding up the entire genre of science fiction as though it hasn't also had it's issues with representation). If you really want to peddle whataboutism might as well do it to Wizards of the Coast:

Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is strength, for only a diverse group of adventurers can overcome the many challenges a D&D story presents. In that spirit, making D&D as welcoming and inclusive as possible has moved to the forefront of our priorities over the last six years. We’d like to share with you what we’ve been doing, and what we plan to do in the future to address legacy D&D content that does not reflect who we are today. We recognize that doing this isn’t about getting to a place where we can rest on our laurels but continuing to head in the right direction. We feel that being transparent about it is the best way to let our community help us to continue to calibrate our efforts.

One of the explicit design goals of 5th edition D&D is to depict humanity in all its beautiful diversity by depicting characters who represent an array of ethnicities, gender identities, sexual orientations, and beliefs. We want everyone to feel at home around the game table and to see positive reflections of themselves within our products. “Human” in D&D means everyone, not just fantasy versions of northern Europeans, and the D&D community is now more diverse than it’s ever been.


https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/diversity-and-dnd

Originally Posted by Rieline

I am not of course repeating myself again it cold be that my english is not perfect because is not the primary languange however i may give you a friendly advise for the future. Debating and disagree on something is perfectly fine as long every part does it respectfully i noticed you got maybe a little upset and this is not how a conversation between civil people should go


Some friendly advice back; there is nothing wrong with people getting upset or angry at certain views, and telling people to "be civil" or "calm down" is a common tactic to try to discredit them. Just look at Colin Kaepernick who protested civil rights in an incredibly calm, non-disruptive way and yet he was hounded for not being respectful or civil.

Originally Posted by Rieline
My reasons are under the nose of everyone that knows well D&D or at least have some degree of knowledge about it. The main reason i oppose to this idea in the end is just one logic one. Elves are not human and they never been human apply human enthnicy to elves to have more inclusivity have no sense at the same manner the elves heads that are currently in the game for bot players and npc have no sense.


Elves are not presented as aliens, as has been pointed out if any of these elves walked down the street, minus the ears, you'd think nothing of it. If Larian had decided to create novel elven facial features that don't align with any RL ethnicities then you'd have more of a leg to stand on. But they've not done that, they've not indicated they're going to do that, they've made elves with caucasian features. In which case the RL inclusivity argument definitely holds. See above for the statement from wizards.

Originally Posted by Rieline
What's next?
"I don't feel represented by Githianki heads i want more latin faces for them that don't have a bat upturned nose or is not diverse enough?"
or
"I want to make an Halfling that is tall like an human?"

I would also not put in doubt the moral integrity of who disagree with me.


Your moral integrity isn' in question because you disagree, it's because of how you disagree. Seriously, a slippery slope argument? Asking for a more diverse range of real ethnicities in races that have clearly been based on a real ethnicity is not at all the same as asking that species that do have significantly novel features appear human.



Heh, I read this post and I was like, "Oh nice, here's another person being reasonable, articulate, and thoughtful in the thread. This is great." Then I looked to see who it was, and OF COURSE it was you, Braxton. Sad that there wasn't another person on the right side, but always glad to read one of your posts nonetheless.

The things you're saying make so much clear and obvious sense, it's amazing how many people come out of the woodwork to disagree.
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Man, one good thing about Star Wars and sci-fi, people don't try to inject diversification for the sake of diversification into everything nearly as much. I guess because making the argument that twileks, a fictional race with their own enstablished look, should have asian or african features, or be black or brown, all for inclusivity's sake would be downright silly.

Let fictional races be fictional races with their own established flavours, in other words.



Welp, they didn't have to add African features to twi'leks, because that "established look" you mention was ALREADY African. Yeah, the very first twi'lek character in Star Wars was Oola from Return of the Jedi, and she was played by a Black woman. Good try, though.


Not that it makes any difference, but Bib Fortuna is a twi’lek too!



Oh shit! You're right! I totally thought he was a different species, for some reason. Maybe because of the way his lekku wrap around or something. Well, you got me there.
Posted By: Maerd Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 06:21 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth

It was a joke, but actually I'm completely happy with Astarion's appearance and don't want to see him more "alien". And yes, if you change elves in character creator, you will probably have to change companions as well. I am absolutely against it.

Well, Larian can keep his appearance intact. They just need to make him human. It won't change much because, being a vampire spawn, he can live for a long time.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 06:26 AM
Originally Posted by Maerd
Originally Posted by Nyloth

It was a joke, but actually I'm completely happy with Astarion's appearance and don't want to see him more "alien". And yes, if you change elves in character creator, you will probably have to change companions as well. I am absolutely against it.

Well, Larian can keep his appearance intact. They just need to make him human. It won't change much because, being a vampire spawn, he can live for a long time.


Isn't Astarion an half helf?.. Vampirism or Being Vampire Spawn change the complexion of the skin white cadaveric and makes the eyes red. Half elves does not need to change at the countrary i would like to see more Ethnicy Human mixing with elven features.

But the Elves needs to be redone totally. Right now they look like just humans with pointy ears.

Asking more HUMAN ethnicy for clearly not Human races is not logic nor reasonable. Elves are not Humans. Period.

Said that Elves are diverse on theyr own like i said several times and people seems to don't understand.
[Linked Image] Forgotten realms elves.

Again Forgotten Realms elves the first one is human.
[Linked Image]

They have the diversity they need concerning their race that again is not Human.






Posted By: Maerd Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 06:31 AM
Originally Posted by Rieline


Isn't Astarion an half helf?


He is high elf according to his character sheet but human with pointy ears in appearance.
I feel like most of the posters in this thread didn't even READ the original post. Not all of it. I think a lot of them just saw the topic and immediately started reacting based on their pre-conceived ideas. Or if they did read it, they did so with a profound lack of empathy.

Go back and read what Saturdiva actually wrote. Do you really have no sympathy for her, or the other people in her shoes?

This isn't about "outrage", "cancel culture", "being woke", "politics", or anything like that. OTHER people make it about those things. This is a plea on behalf of a real group of people (represented by Saturdiva) to have their personal feelings and desires recognized. And you all just want to attack it, thoughtlessly. You just don't get it, or you don't WANT to get it, and it makes me sad.

And I think it's likely that there's more going on in your subconscious motives for doing so than just pure concern for the inviolability of The Lore™.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 06:37 AM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
I feel like most of the posters in this thread didn't even READ the original post. Not all of it. I think a lot of them just saw the topic and immediately started reacting based on their pre-conceived ideas. Or if they did read it, they did so with a profound lack of empathy.

Go back and read what Saturdiva actually wrote. Do you really have no sympathy for her, or the other people in her shoes?

This isn't about "outrage", "cancel culture", "being woke", "politics", or anything like that. OTHER people make it about those things. This is a plea on behalf of a real group of people (represented by Saturdiva) to have their personal feelings and desires recognized. And you all just want to attack it, thoughtlessly. You just don't get it, or you don't WANT to get it, and it makes me sad.

And I think it's likely that there's more going on in your subconscious motives for doing so than just pure concern for the inviolability of The Lore™.


I did in fact i suggested the OP to play a Wood Elf. Those are the ones that look actually what she is looking for. You can see the first picture i posted the elf after the drow. And yes if Astarion is an high elf. (Sun Elves Moon Elves) then even his face is wrong.

"Wood elves were easily identifiable by their coppery skin and green, brown, or hazel eyes. Wood elven hair was usually black or brown,[1] although hues such as blond or copper red were also found. Wood elves tended to dress in simple clothes, similar to those of the moon elves but with fewer bold colors and a greater number of earth tones that blended into their natural surroundings. Accustomed to a harsh, naturalistic lifestyle, wood elves loved to wear leather armor, even when they were not under immediate threat. Wood elves were roughly identical to other elves in height and build, with males larger than females.

Wood elves were often stronger than other Tel-quessir, including other elves, but were frequently less cerebral than moon and sun elves, who put a greater value on education."

I also stated several time i understand her and in fact it is why i say elven head needs to follow more the source materials.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 07:34 AM
Originally Posted by Rieline
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
I feel like most of the posters in this thread didn't even READ the original post. Not all of it. I think a lot of them just saw the topic and immediately started reacting based on their pre-conceived ideas. Or if they did read it, they did so with a profound lack of empathy.

Go back and read what Saturdiva actually wrote. Do you really have no sympathy for her, or the other people in her shoes?

This isn't about "outrage", "cancel culture", "being woke", "politics", or anything like that. OTHER people make it about those things. This is a plea on behalf of a real group of people (represented by Saturdiva) to have their personal feelings and desires recognized. And you all just want to attack it, thoughtlessly. You just don't get it, or you don't WANT to get it, and it makes me sad.

And I think it's likely that there's more going on in your subconscious motives for doing so than just pure concern for the inviolability of The Lore™.


I did in fact i suggested the OP to play a Wood Elf. Those are the ones that look actually what she is looking for. You can see the first picture i posted the elf after the drow. And yes if Astarion is an high elf. (Sun Elves Moon Elves) then even his face is wrong.

"Wood elves were easily identifiable by their coppery skin and green, brown, or hazel eyes. Wood elven hair was usually black or brown,[1] although hues such as blond or copper red were also found. Wood elves tended to dress in simple clothes, similar to those of the moon elves but with fewer bold colors and a greater number of earth tones that blended into their natural surroundings. Accustomed to a harsh, naturalistic lifestyle, wood elves loved to wear leather armor, even when they were not under immediate threat. Wood elves were roughly identical to other elves in height and build, with males larger than females.

Wood elves were often stronger than other Tel-quessir, including other elves, but were frequently less cerebral than moon and sun elves, who put a greater value on education."

I also stated several time i understand her and in fact it is why i say elven head needs to follow more the source materials.


If Larian changes his face or race, believe me, the reaction will be terrible. Changes in design are not so important if people like new design. And, believe me, many people like it. Many people don't want to play "alien elf" either, just because it's "old canon".
I immediately remember the strange elven redesign of Dragon Age 2.... Although this has nothing to do with OP problem.

I think there is nothing terrible about playing a female character with "european" face type. To be honest, tieflings have almost the opposite situation, but no one talks about it.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 07:51 AM
I don't think there is nothing terrible too however the elves how appear now are kinda lore breaking. You took Dragon age 2 as example. The design of elves changed in Dragon age 2 breaking the lore of it. I truly believe if Larian implement elven face as it supposed to be the OP would find for herself a more appealing head for her. Elves are diverse in Forgotten Realms they offer a variation they just don't look like humans.
Posted By: Ankou Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 08:23 AM
None of this would even be an issue if they had sliders etc. for things like lips, eyes, eyelids, etc.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 08:34 AM
Originally Posted by Rieline
I don't think there is nothing terrible too however the elves how appear now are kinda lore breaking. You took Dragon age 2 as example. The design of elves changed in Dragon age 2 breaking the lore of it. I truly believe if Larian implement elven face as it supposed to be the OP would find for herself a more appealing head for her. Elves are diverse in Forgotten Realms they offer a variation they just don't look like humans.


They are likely to add more appearance options, as it was in DOS2, but it is unlikely that they will change entire design of appearance elves. Too much work just because a few people don't like it.

I said about Dragon Age 2 in a different sense, now for bg3 players there is already a visual example of elves, and you are asking to change it. I can also remember NVN2 where elves have slanted eyes, but no more than that. Many people have fixed this "feature" with mods... In BG2, you just don't see your character, I'm not even sure that this can be called "design", because all "design" goes into portrait, which can just be anything!
Posted By: Grantig Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 11:44 AM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Man, one good thing about Star Wars and sci-fi, people don't try to inject diversification for the sake of diversification into everything nearly as much. I guess because making the argument that twileks, a fictional race with their own enstablished look, should have asian or african features, or be black or brown, all for inclusivity's sake would be downright silly.

Let fictional races be fictional races with their own established flavours, in other words.



Welp, they didn't have to add African features to twi'leks, because that "established look" you mention was ALREADY African. Yeah, the very first twi'lek character in Star Wars was Oola from Return of the Jedi, and she was played by a Black woman. Good try, though.


So, you mean you would like to have some swedish looking twileks for the sake of diversity (aside of they are multicolored anyway, so I don't get the african point here).
Or are you just hating any caucasians?
Originally Posted by Grantig
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Man, one good thing about Star Wars and sci-fi, people don't try to inject diversification for the sake of diversification into everything nearly as much. I guess because making the argument that twileks, a fictional race with their own enstablished look, should have asian or african features, or be black or brown, all for inclusivity's sake would be downright silly.

Let fictional races be fictional races with their own established flavours, in other words.



Welp, they didn't have to add African features to twi'leks, because that "established look" you mention was ALREADY African. Yeah, the very first twi'lek character in Star Wars was Oola from Return of the Jedi, and she was played by a Black woman. Good try, though.


So, you mean you would like to have some swedish looking twileks for the sake of diversity.
Or are you just hating any caucasians?



They already have twi'leks with all sorts of features, including Caucasian. I'm not hating anyone, especially not Caucasians since I am one. No one is asking for FEWER Caucasian-looking things, just more African ones.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 11:51 AM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
I feel like most of the posters in this thread didn't even READ the original post. Not all of it. I think a lot of them just saw the topic and immediately started reacting based on their pre-conceived ideas. Or if they did read it, they did so with a profound lack of empathy.

Go back and read what Saturdiva actually wrote. Do you really have no sympathy for her, or the other people in her shoes?

This isn't about "outrage", "cancel culture", "being woke", "politics", or anything like that. OTHER people make it about those things. This is a plea on behalf of a real group of people (represented by Saturdiva) to have their personal feelings and desires recognized. And you all just want to attack it, thoughtlessly. You just don't get it, or you don't WANT to get it, and it makes me sad.

And I think it's likely that there's more going on in your subconscious motives for doing so than just pure concern for the inviolability of The Lore™.


THANK YOU!!!!

Jeez one simple request about adding diversity and suddenly it's all about accuracy and lore which I'm completely fine with!!!!

I personally dont mind how the elves look but I do mind that most options for them are eurocentric which again is fine but it would be nice to have more options that include diverse features!

Even with the human heads there is not enough diverse options!!!!

And for those who want the elves to look different that's fine you all prove a valid point but you cant deny that with the different races of elves you can diversify them without making them look too human! There is so much to play with and so much opportunities!

Especially for such an amazing game!

Guys remember this is DnD and it's different for everyone!
Posted By: Grantig Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 12:06 PM
Elves are not humans. Elves are so diverse in D&D they even have several subraces. That differ in another way than humans do.
So implementing human facial distinction isn't quite logical. Especially as elven faces don't look human, as several times pointed out here.
For the elven race logic it would make more sense to create another elven subrace, whatever, like desert elves.

Before BG3 I didn't even know/remember that elves did look so different in D&D (aside of some artworks in earlier D&D games, which I considered more "badly drawn"), I assumed they were either based on Tolkien or the other elf type, were elves were just smaller and prettier than humans.

But as I'm more tolerant as people always complaining about just everything (and telling everone else being wrong), so I'm okay with african feature elves.
Of all problems that BG3 has, the lack of faces is just a small one.
But I would also like to see more available heads...
Just gonna drop in again to say:

Elves are fictional creatures. They don't have to adhere to a rigid standard based on tradition. New traditions get created all the time. D&D is flexible when it comes to ensuring the best player experience. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be able to identify with the character you play by having it resemble you--that's why we have character creators.

Having greater diversity that reflects real world diversity hurts no-one and can dramatically improve the experience of people who have long been told they don't look like the "standard."

This is fantasy--logic need not apply.

(But if we do want to apply some real world logic to it, remember that human genetic diversity is actually very small compared to most other creatures. Given that D&D races are different species, it may be reasonable to assume they would actually have greater levels of genetic diversity than humans and, therefore, some may coincidentally resemble different human races given that they are all humanoid and our brains are wired to recognize the familiar.)

Sliders, headparts, and a bigger sampling of presets would give people a greater range to shape their experience however they want it.
Originally Posted by pinklily
Just gonna drop in again to say:

Elves are fictional creatures. They don't have to adhere to a rigid standard based on tradition. New traditions get created all the time. D&D is flexible when it comes to ensuring the best player experience. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be able to identify with the character you play by having it resemble you--that's why we have character creators.

Having greater diversity that reflects real world diversity hurts no-one and can dramatically improve the experience of people who have long been told they don't look like the "standard."

This is fantasy--logic need not apply.

(But if we do want to apply some real world logic to it, remember that human genetic diversity is actually very small compared to most other creatures. Given that D&D races are different species, it may be reasonable to assume they would actually have greater levels of genetic diversity than humans and, therefore, some may coincidentally resemble different human races given that they are all humanoid and our brains are wired to recognize the familiar.)

Sliders, headparts, and a bigger sampling of presets would give people a greater range to shape their experience however they want it.



Great post!
Posted By: Grantig Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by pinklily

Sliders, headparts, and a bigger sampling of presets would give people a greater range to shape their experience however they want it.


Yes.
Especially as I don't like 3 out of 4 head presets on any race/gender.
I always found the appeal of rolling a non-human character is that they look distinct to humans. Each to their own I guess. Personally I like to play dwarves and elves because I get to live out the fantasy of playing a race who, while sharing similarities, are noticeably different from human. I am all for the beautiful spectrum of human diversity being represented in humans and half-elves, half-orcs, etc. I just don't see why we need to reflect human diversity in Elves, when they are supposed to be a different species but that's just me and I can appreciate people think otherwise.

In this thread I have read posts suggesting ethereal = white (skin) and broadly conflating Elven features with North European Caucasian features, which to me is nonsense. You could equally argue that Elves share a resemblance to, for example, some East African and East Asian people but I haven't seen that mentioned here. I am of North European heritage and have a nose that is flat and round ie. untypical of what people might generally associate with Caucasian! I look nothing like an elf. If I did, I'd piss off to the forest and live out the fantasy for real.
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
I feel like most of the posters in this thread didn't even READ the original post. Not all of it. I think a lot of them just saw the topic and immediately started reacting based on their pre-conceived ideas. Or if they did read it, they did so with a profound lack of empathy.

Go back and read what Saturdiva actually wrote. Do you really have no sympathy for her, or the other people in her shoes?

This isn't about "outrage", "cancel culture", "being woke", "politics", or anything like that. OTHER people make it about those things. This is a plea on behalf of a real group of people (represented by Saturdiva) to have their personal feelings and desires recognized. And you all just want to attack it, thoughtlessly. You just don't get it, or you don't WANT to get it, and it makes me sad.

And I think it's likely that there's more going on in your subconscious motives for doing so than just pure concern for the inviolability of The Lore™.


I don't understand why around here people being straight and/or crass gets mods all involved, but passive aggressiveness is seen as fine. Can't think of one post of yours where you don't allude to people being either bigots, stupid, intellectually dishonest or just plain horrible because they don't share your views. Maybe the ones where you don't contribute to anything and just come in to mock the OP with a one-liner, like that other poster does.

This is being straight, by the way, so i know what to expect.
Posted By: guy Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by Ankou
None of this would even be an issue if they had sliders etc. for things like lips, eyes, eyelids, etc.


+1
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 05:43 PM
Elves may be fictional creatures but the setting forgotten Realms describes pretty well how elves should look like. Disregard a whole setting because "Oh hey its fictional everything goes" actually don't give the setting proper respect. Because a wold is fictional that doesn't mean that it haves not his rules if i create a world where elves are described to have spikes in the foreheads then all the elves born in that setting should have spike on the foreheads.

You don't like the setting then go homebrew. But Baldur's gate 3 is in the forgotten realms so the setting is applied here.
Posted By: guy Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by Rieline
Elves may be fictional creatures but the setting forgotten Realms describes pretty well how elves should look like. Disregard a whole setting because "Oh hey its fictional everything goes" actually don't give the setting proper respect. Because a wold is fictional that doesn't mean that it haves not his rules if i create a world where elves are described to have spikes in the foreheads then all the elves born in that setting should have spike on the foreheads.

You don't like the setting then go homebrew. But Baldur's gate 3 is in the forgotten realms so the setting is applied here.


I thought Tolkien was the defacto go to for elves.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by guy
Originally Posted by Rieline
Elves may be fictional creatures but the setting forgotten Realms describes pretty well how elves should look like. Disregard a whole setting because "Oh hey its fictional everything goes" actually don't give the setting proper respect. Because a wold is fictional that doesn't mean that it haves not his rules if i create a world where elves are described to have spikes in the foreheads then all the elves born in that setting should have spike on the foreheads.

You don't like the setting then go homebrew. But Baldur's gate 3 is in the forgotten realms so the setting is applied here.


I thought Tolkien was the defacto go to for elves.


Tolkien elves are not Forgotten Realm elves nor D&D elves.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by pinklily
Just gonna drop in again to say:

Elves are fictional creatures. They don't have to adhere to a rigid standard based on tradition. New traditions get created all the time. D&D is flexible when it comes to ensuring the best player experience. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be able to identify with the character you play by having it resemble you--that's why we have character creators.

Having greater diversity that reflects real world diversity hurts no-one and can dramatically improve the experience of people who have long been told they don't look like the "standard."

This is fantasy--logic need not apply.


THIS!!!! THIS IS EXCELLENT!

it's a dnd FANTASY game! And the dnd universe its constantly changing and evolving as we progress through time!

We can all argue about the traditional appearance of elves! Everyones opinion is valid and great!

But one thing I want to say is why do we have to constantly go with the "traditional" elves? If it's all gonna look the same as every other fantasy game and movie what's the point of having creativity? It's kinda boring no?

I feel like we have this mindset of sticking to this "tradition" because we are too used to it, and with this we should be encouraging change and breaking boundaries because that is what the Dnd universe is constantly doing! And it's great!

It's nice to see changes when it comes to something like this because it just means its thinking outside of the box and exploring more! And we need that! Like I said we cant keep sticking to the same old thing because it just to me at least gets boring!

I'm not going to lie I am super tired of seeing the same old elves must have x and y features because of x and y and such!
I completely understand it when it comes to the science and history of the specific campaign setting but like I said in an earlier post there are many different races of elves so why do they all have to look the same?

I understand there are colour variations but that just feels like a slap in the face! Like "here you go heres a sun elf with the exact same features as a high elf except you can give them more darker skin tones" like what? No show me different features! Show me more of a regional difference!

A good example I can think of (though the races are limited so far) is the dragon prince on netflix and their distinction between the moon elves and the sun elves! You can definitely tell the difference and that's not just because of colour variations!

(Apologies if I went off I had no intention of offending anyone if I did I just simply wish to express my frustration, English is not my first language so i understand of there might be a miscommunication, sorry if it felt like an attack on anyone specifically it really wasnt I promise you, just let me know and I can explain further smile )
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by A Clown
Originally Posted by pinklily
Just gonna drop in again to say:

Elves are fictional creatures. They don't have to adhere to a rigid standard based on tradition. New traditions get created all the time. D&D is flexible when it comes to ensuring the best player experience. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be able to identify with the character you play by having it resemble you--that's why we have character creators.

Having greater diversity that reflects real world diversity hurts no-one and can dramatically improve the experience of people who have long been told they don't look like the "standard."

This is fantasy--logic need not apply.


THIS!!!! THIS IS EXCELLENT!

it's a dnd FANTASY game! And the dnd universe its constantly changing and evolving as we progress through time!

We can all argue about the traditional appearance of elves! Everyones opinion is valid and great!

But one thing I want to say is why do we have to constantly go with the "traditional" elves? If it's all gonna look the same as every other fantasy game and movie what's the point of having creativity? It's kinda boring no?

I feel like we have this mindset of sticking to this "tradition" because we are too used to it, and with this we should be encouraging change and breaking boundaries because that is what the Dnd universe is constantly doing! And it's great!

It's nice to see changes when it comes to something like this because it just means its thinking outside of the box and exploring more! And we need that! Like I said we cant keep sticking to the same old thing because it just to me at least gets boring!

I'm not going to lie I am super tired of seeing the same old elves must have x and y features because of x and y and such!
I completely understand it when it comes to the science and history of the specific campaign setting but like I said in an earlier post there are many different races of elves so why do they all have to look the same?

I understand there are colour variations but that just feels like a slap in the face! Like "here you go heres a sun elf with the exact same features as a high elf except you can give them more darker skin tones" like what? No show me different features! Show me more of a regional difference!

A good example I can think of (though the races are limited so far) is the dragon prince on netflix and their distinction between the moon elves and the sun elves! You can definitely tell the difference and that's not just because of colour variations!

(Apologies if I went off I had no intention of offending anyone if I did I just simply wish to express my frustration, English is not my first language so i understand of there might be a miscommunication, sorry if it felt like an attack on anyone specifically it really wasnt I promise you, just let me know and I can explain further smile )


Fantasy does not mean disregard for the Setting this is something that the bad roleplayer do the kind one a DM don't want at the table. D&D offer the freedom to create your own world and in your own world you are free to make the elves appear exactly how you want. Unfortunately BG3 follow a setting that has his own races and lore the elves of Forgotten Realms ((the setting bg3 take place in)) are diverse on theyr own.

The fact a setting is a fantasy world does not mean you can "Make up" things. In that way you don't only disergard the setting but you kill the credibility and the background people written about that world.

Now the point is BG3 have elves that looks more human than elves and that is an issue as this setting is not created by larian. I don't feel your post desrespectful at all i am just attempting to explain one thing that many seems to forger.

A) Elves are not humans they are a completely different race. Expect the Elves to have Human Ethnicy diversity is like expecting a Benholder to have human tracts completely out of place.

B)This is not an homebrew setting created by Larian this is Forgotten Realms a setting that have Lore Background and also well extabilished look when it comes to races killing off this just kills the credibility of the setting.

If a player would tell me: I would like to play an elves with dark skin but not drow. I would tell him or her: There are both Wood Elves and WIld elves to chose from. Both this races have colour variation that can be dark and both of them have a cool background about them.

What makes my nose wrinkle is that people that seek to enforce human ethnicy where it does not belong in a setting with extabilished appearance when it comes to races don't have the minimal respect for the setting or simple they don't know the setting.

As a person i attemt to explain things in a manner they understand it.

But i don't condone or never support who is pointing the finger. I was called Intellectually Dishonest because i was disagreeing with someone and this is not a prime example of civil discussion. However i did not put so much weight on it and instead if anyone felt offended that was not my intention.

I Care about the setting i love and grew up with. That's all.

The moment things are forced for no logical reason is the moment you destroy a setting and trash Artistic Integrity down the toilet.

((Reason why WOTC butchered the 4th edition and created the 5th one))

And no i don't think the current BG3 head in the game represent elves at all.
Posted By: Maerd Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by pinklily
Just gonna drop in again to say:

Elves are fictional creatures. They don't have to adhere to a rigid standard based on tradition. New traditions get created all the time. D&D is flexible when it comes to ensuring the best player experience. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be able to identify with the character you play by having it resemble you--that's why we have character creators.

Having greater diversity that reflects real world diversity hurts no-one and can dramatically improve the experience of people who have long been told they don't look like the "standard."

If you break the fantasy world lore it does hurt the quality of the storytelling, thus, hurts every person with intelligence. This is one of the reason, for example, of Star Wars universe's free fall into the nonsensical garbage and your attitude supports this garbage storytelling.

Originally Posted by pinklily

This is fantasy--logic need not apply.

This is the common misconception. For fantasy to be coherent you need to apply logic all the time within the rules of the universe. If you don't apply logic you'll have a stinking pile of poo instead of fantasy.

Originally Posted by A Clown

We can all argue about the traditional appearance of elves! Everyones opinion is valid and great!

But one thing I want to say is why do we have to constantly go with the "traditional" elves? If it's all gonna look the same as every other fantasy game and movie what's the point of having creativity? It's kinda boring no?


Lol no, not everyone's opinion is valid and great. There's a reason there are so few great games, movies, books, etc. Because most of the people are not great at creating something good, therefore, let's stick to the good lore. If you want new lore then go ahead and make a new setting, we'll then judge how good it is, but leave the good old settings alone.
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
I feel like most of the posters in this thread didn't even READ the original post. Not all of it. I think a lot of them just saw the topic and immediately started reacting based on their pre-conceived ideas. Or if they did read it, they did so with a profound lack of empathy.

Go back and read what Saturdiva actually wrote. Do you really have no sympathy for her, or the other people in her shoes?

This isn't about "outrage", "cancel culture", "being woke", "politics", or anything like that. OTHER people make it about those things. This is a plea on behalf of a real group of people (represented by Saturdiva) to have their personal feelings and desires recognized. And you all just want to attack it, thoughtlessly. You just don't get it, or you don't WANT to get it, and it makes me sad.

And I think it's likely that there's more going on in your subconscious motives for doing so than just pure concern for the inviolability of The Lore™.


I don't understand why around here people being straight and/or crass gets mods all involved, but passive aggressiveness is seen as fine. Can't think of one post of yours where you don't allude to people being either bigots, stupid, intellectually dishonest or just plain horrible because they don't share your views. Maybe the ones where you don't contribute to anything and just come in to mock the OP with a one-liner, like that other poster does.

This is being straight, by the way, so i know what to expect.



I'm not saying I'm never passive aggressive, but I'm not sure how I am in that post you quoted. It seems pretty straightforward to me. And the mods get on me plenty. I've had Sadurian call me out multiple times, both in thread and in PMs. I will probably get punished at some point, because sometimes I do ride the line. Mostly because I'm not sure where the line is, sometimes. And because I see the opposite of what you see, which is people occasionally posting things which are practically tantamount to hate speech (in my opinion) and the mods do nothing about it, so I get a bit pointed with my remarks because I think that someone else has crossed the line. I'm trying to keep it within the bounds of civility, though.


I guess you're not reading a lot of my posts, then. Just looking at my last 10 posts, let's see what we've got:

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=742620#Post742620 - not like you described

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=742619#Post742619 - not like you described

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=742605#Post742605 - not like you described

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=742578#Post742578 - not like you described

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=742575#Post742575 - not like you described

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=742572#Post742572 - not like you described

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=742568#Post742568 - okay, maybe a little bit like you described (I mean, there is sarcasm at least)

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=742559#Post742559 - not like you described (I am being sincere in everything there, not sarcastic)

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=742503#Post742503 - not like you described

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=742502#Post742502 - not like you described


So, I'd say 0.5 out of the last 10 posts are as you described. I think that's pretty decent.

There's nothing wrong with speaking plainly and stating your opinion straight. But sometimes people aren't just doing that, they're being combative, hostile, or otherwise actively unpleasant. And that's what the mods don't like. Especially personal attacks, they really dislike those. I think your post is fine, and you don't need to expect any reprisals for it.
Originally Posted by A Clown
Originally Posted by pinklily
Just gonna drop in again to say:

Elves are fictional creatures. They don't have to adhere to a rigid standard based on tradition. New traditions get created all the time. D&D is flexible when it comes to ensuring the best player experience. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be able to identify with the character you play by having it resemble you--that's why we have character creators.

Having greater diversity that reflects real world diversity hurts no-one and can dramatically improve the experience of people who have long been told they don't look like the "standard."

This is fantasy--logic need not apply.


THIS!!!! THIS IS EXCELLENT!

it's a dnd FANTASY game! And the dnd universe its constantly changing and evolving as we progress through time!

We can all argue about the traditional appearance of elves! Everyones opinion is valid and great!

But one thing I want to say is why do we have to constantly go with the "traditional" elves? If it's all gonna look the same as every other fantasy game and movie what's the point of having creativity? It's kinda boring no?

I feel like we have this mindset of sticking to this "tradition" because we are too used to it, and with this we should be encouraging change and breaking boundaries because that is what the Dnd universe is constantly doing! And it's great!

It's nice to see changes when it comes to something like this because it just means its thinking outside of the box and exploring more! And we need that! Like I said we cant keep sticking to the same old thing because it just to me at least gets boring!

I'm not going to lie I am super tired of seeing the same old elves must have x and y features because of x and y and such!
I completely understand it when it comes to the science and history of the specific campaign setting but like I said in an earlier post there are many different races of elves so why do they all have to look the same?

I understand there are colour variations but that just feels like a slap in the face! Like "here you go heres a sun elf with the exact same features as a high elf except you can give them more darker skin tones" like what? No show me different features! Show me more of a regional difference!

A good example I can think of (though the races are limited so far) is the dragon prince on netflix and their distinction between the moon elves and the sun elves! You can definitely tell the difference and that's not just because of colour variations!

(Apologies if I went off I had no intention of offending anyone if I did I just simply wish to express my frustration, English is not my first language so i understand of there might be a miscommunication, sorry if it felt like an attack on anyone specifically it really wasnt I promise you, just let me know and I can explain further smile )




I absolutely love the number of exclamation points you use. I tend to read posts to myself with like, a voice in my head, if that makes any sense. And the voice for yours is so energetic, in a good-natured way. You also make good points!
Posted By: A Clown Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 09:03 PM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

I absolutely love the number of exclamation points you use. I tend to read posts to myself with like, a voice in my head, if that makes any sense. And the voice for yours is so energetic, in a good-natured way. You also make good points!


laugh ahhh thank you so muchhhh!!!!!! I do go overboard with them but I just like to be super expressive! So you did hit the nail on the head with being energetic! And yup the voice reading I get completely! Its interesting as well since you kind of give a voice a personality as well! smile

Thank youuuuuuu! Just trying to articulate myself clearly and I really appreciate someone acknowledging my points! smile
Originally Posted by A Clown
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

I absolutely love the number of exclamation points you use. I tend to read posts to myself with like, a voice in my head, if that makes any sense. And the voice for yours is so energetic, in a good-natured way. You also make good points!


laugh ahhh thank you so muchhhh!!!!!! I do go overboard with them but I just like to be super expressive! So you did hit the nail on the head with being energetic! And yup the voice reading I get completely! Its interesting as well since you kind of give a voice a personality as well! smile

Thank youuuuuuu! Just trying to articulate myself clearly and I really appreciate someone acknowledging my points! smile



I just think that you, and the OP, are not asking for anything unreasonable. In fact, you're asking for something very reasonable. And doing it in a nice, non-demanding way. And then I see so many people coming in here and just being like "NO. YOU CANNOT HAVE THAT." It's a shame.
Posted By: Piff Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 09:16 PM
I'd like to point out at this stage that the art in the new book, Tasha's, is really on point for having wood Elves without anglo/caucasian features. At lot of people will pooh-pooh the book because it's essentially a "wizard is best class!" book and it contains the disappointment that is the custom race builder (I wanted the advanced race guide, but d&d edition), but the arts are really good.

I've had an issue with the art in a lot of the official books for a while specifically in regard to elves. The first point, they look too human, we've already had that discussion. But, I feel like the art never properly represented the actual diversity of the different elves that already existed in the writing. I always liked the different comparison pictures for the races that had a lot of variety in older editions and felt that wizards had done their books a slight disservice by not doing it for 4e/5e. I know art is expensive and this is supposed to be a game about imagination, but plenty of people use the official art as their base for what certain races look like.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 09:25 PM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by A Clown
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

I absolutely love the number of exclamation points you use. I tend to read posts to myself with like, a voice in my head, if that makes any sense. And the voice for yours is so energetic, in a good-natured way. You also make good points!


laugh ahhh thank you so muchhhh!!!!!! I do go overboard with them but I just like to be super expressive! So you did hit the nail on the head with being energetic! And yup the voice reading I get completely! Its interesting as well since you kind of give a voice a personality as well! smile

Thank youuuuuuu! Just trying to articulate myself clearly and I really appreciate someone acknowledging my points! smile



I just think that you, and the OP, are not asking for anything unreasonable. In fact, you're asking for something very reasonable. And doing it in a nice, non-demanding way. And then I see so many people coming in here and just being like "NO. YOU CANNOT HAVE THAT." It's a shame.


You again seem to miss the point. What the OP wants is actually possible in Forgotten Realms if larian followerd how the elves appear there. Wood Elves WIld elves have the things she is looking for.
Originally Posted by Rieline
Elves may be fictional creatures but the setting forgotten Realms describes pretty well how elves should look like. Disregard a whole setting because "Oh hey its fictional everything goes" actually don't give the setting proper respect.

Well, I don't think this setting deserves much respect. The D&D creators had no problems "borrowing" from Tolkien (and other authors) in the first place, and had no problems changing this lore once they got faced with a lawsuit.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Rieline
Elves may be fictional creatures but the setting forgotten Realms describes pretty well how elves should look like. Disregard a whole setting because "Oh hey its fictional everything goes" actually don't give the setting proper respect.

Well, I don't think this setting deserves much respect. The D&D creators had no problems "borrowing" from Tolkien (and other authors) in the first place, and had no problems changing this lore once they got faced with a lawsuit.


Then why you are even here?.... If you dislike this setting so much why playing a game in this setting?.. If i dislike soup i don't eat soup. Also keep in mind there are people that may love the setting.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 06/12/20 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

I just think that you, and the OP, are not asking for anything unreasonable. In fact, you're asking for something very reasonable. And doing it in a nice, non-demanding way. And then I see so many people coming in here and just being like "NO. YOU CANNOT HAVE THAT." It's a shame.


My sentiments exactly thank you!!! And thank you so much for understanding fellow friend laugh

Originally Posted by Rieline

You again seem to miss the point. What the OP wants is actually possible in Forgotten Realms if larian followerd how the elves appear there. Wood Elves WIld elves have the things she is looking for.


No I get it and it's exactly what we are asking for! To bring the diversity in the forgotten realms into the game for the elves! Since all of the options for each elf head looks the same for all of the elf races! smile
Since from what I have seen some elves dont look too human but also resemble different human ethnicities and that's what at least I want and I'm sure op is the same!

Since a lot of fantasy race inspiration stems from taking parts of our own different races and culture but altering it slightly and making it more exaggerated and artistic! That's how you write and create fantasy you use elements of the real world but exaggerate! You can definitely see a resemblance in eurocentric features but you can also see some afro-centric? (Is that the correct term and spelling?) Features too! And even some hooked noses and thick lips etc! In the illustrations! And they still look almost alien like but still have the diversity we ask for!

It's just a request of adding more diversity to the elves to 1 make it obvious there is a difference in the elf sub races etc and 2 be inclusive because we all deserve it!

Whether they look too human etc is a completely different argument! smile
Originally Posted by Rieline
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Rieline
Elves may be fictional creatures but the setting forgotten Realms describes pretty well how elves should look like. Disregard a whole setting because "Oh hey its fictional everything goes" actually don't give the setting proper respect.

Well, I don't think this setting deserves much respect. The D&D creators had no problems "borrowing" from Tolkien (and other authors) in the first place, and had no problems changing this lore once they got faced with a lawsuit.


Then why you are even here?.... If you dislike this setting so much why playing a game in this setting?.. If i dislike soup i don't eat soup. Also keep in mind there are people that may love the setting.

I like the BG game series just fine. This doesn't mean I'll believe the soup is cooked from an original recipe. D&D creators had a loose approach to the works of others, and only got careful about it because they got threatened with legal action, so I'd say they weren't giving other creators proper respect either.
Honestly, I feel like there's a dangerous level of gatekeeping going on here. Saying people should just not play a race or engage with a property just because they disagree with certain elements/would like those elements changed to incorporate more people is cruel. It is essentially saying, on some level, that they don't belong--which is the harmful psychological impact to which OP referred to in the initial post. Again, properties evolve. D&D was created in the 70s for a predominantly Caucasian demographic and its art reflected that. As the audience grows, there's nothing wrong with the content adapting to be more inclusive. The arguments and reference images I see for "elves should be angular and look different from humans" still look human with Caucasian features. I'm sure we've all seen people who are more angular than average. Even with this angular aesthetic preserved, there's no reason the finer features cannot reflect a greater variety of human ethnicities. (Of course, I think players should have as much freedom as they want with a character creator and should not be locked into a particular aesthetic.)

Also, design fidelity should not be conflated with narrative fidelity. Artwork and creature design for franchises can vary greatly with different iterations. Take Klingons from Star Trek, for example. Their appearance has changed in every new series they have been featured in. Iconic features like their forehead ridges were not introduced until the movies, their commonly recognized look was not formed until Next Generation and they even got a redesign for Discovery. These changes had no impact on narrative and did not have much of an impact on the franchise on a whole other than making Klingons look more iconic and less like a harmful stereotype.

Lore is not incontrovertible truth. It can and does evolve over time.
Originally Posted by A Clown
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

I just think that you, and the OP, are not asking for anything unreasonable. In fact, you're asking for something very reasonable. And doing it in a nice, non-demanding way. And then I see so many people coming in here and just being like "NO. YOU CANNOT HAVE THAT." It's a shame.


My sentiments exactly thank you!!! And thank you so much for understanding fellow friend laugh

Originally Posted by Rieline

You again seem to miss the point. What the OP wants is actually possible in Forgotten Realms if larian followerd how the elves appear there. Wood Elves WIld elves have the things she is looking for.


No I get it and it's exactly what we are asking for! To bring the diversity in the forgotten realms into the game for the elves! Since all of the options for each elf head looks the same for all of the elf races! smile
Since from what I have seen some elves dont look too human but also resemble different human ethnicities and that's what at least I want and I'm sure op is the same!

Since a lot of fantasy race inspiration stems from taking parts of our own different races and culture but altering it slightly and making it more exaggerated and artistic! That's how you write and create fantasy you use elements of the real world but exaggerate! You can definitely see a resemblance in eurocentric features but you can also see some afro-centric? (Is that the correct term and spelling?) Features too! And even some hooked noses and thick lips etc! In the illustrations! And they still look almost alien like but still have the diversity we ask for!

It's just a request of adding more diversity to the elves to 1 make it obvious there is a difference in the elf sub races etc and 2 be inclusive because we all deserve it!

Whether they look too human etc is a completely different argument! smile


You know, i hope higher powers are listening. They just need to not chicken out and do it right. We do deserve drows, the one evil race, becoming african look-alikes, bonus points if the duergar do too. The backlash would be incredibly amusing.
Posted By: Sharp Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 07/12/20 07:55 AM
Ergh, why is it that people who argue against the changing of existing media to better represent underrepresented individuals almost always do such a poor job of doing so.

First off, some context about me, because I feel that in this case it is relevant to the discussion. I am South African. I can assure you, 90% or more of the things you may have assumed about me prior to reading this post are probably incorrect and I can also assure you that I am not well represented in online media at all and it would be nice if that was at some point changed. With that being said, there are 2 ways to improve representation. The first is to take an existing piece of media and change it to represent a different group of people and the second is to create new media to represent those groups.

Now, when it comes to D&D, I personally do not care if the entirety of the lore was thrown out and rewritten, I do not think it is particularly good to begin with and I do believe it could be much better than it currently is. I will still however defend the people who want to preserve the lore as is, even if I do not care about it myself. Why is that? Because when the integrity of a piece is important to someone, by changing it you are "killing" a part of that world to them. It is the same as when an adaptation of a book into film is done poorly, it takes the image of the universe that individuals who care about that universe see in their head, throws it out and replaces it with something inferior. In the case of iconic figures being changed, it is taking away a "hero" from one group and giving it to another, which is essentially taking away representation from one group to give it to someone else. I think its pretty obvious there why people are upset, because icons they relate to are having that relation removed. When it comes to changing the appearance of a fantasy race to be more representative, the same thing is happening. The very identity of the race is being eroded.

Does this mean I am against better representing people in media? No! Absolutely not. But I am against the changing of existing established identities to do so. There is the alternative, creating new media to represent people. Not only does this have the advantage of not eroding existing identities, but it also creates a richer universe, featuring more than the universe that came before. New races can be created, new heroes can be added, new cultures can be inserted and the fictional universe would be better off with all of that. So with all of that being said, I will defend maintaining the lore appearance of elves in the Forgotten Realms, even if I think the lore is bad, because if you aren't willing to defend the settings other people care about when people try to change them, then you cannot expect other people to come and defend the fictional universes you do care about if the same thing happens :P

With all of that being said, the elves in BG 3 are decidedly not elven enough and should be further modified to better represent their in lore appearance :P
Originally Posted by Sharp
Ergh, why is it that people who argue against the changing of existing media to better represent underrepresented individuals almost always do such a poor job of doing so.

First off, some context about me, because I feel that in this case it is relevant to the discussion. I am South African. I can assure you, 90% or more of the things you may have assumed about me prior to reading this post are probably incorrect and I can also assure you that I am not well represented in online media at all and it would be nice if that was at some point changed. With that being said, there are 2 ways to improve representation. The first is to take an existing piece of media and change it to represent a different group of people and the second is to create new media to represent those groups.

Now, when it comes to D&D, I personally do not care if the entirety of the lore was thrown out and rewritten, I do not think it is particularly good to begin with and I do believe it could be much better than it currently is. I will still however defend the people who want to preserve the lore as is, even if I do not care about it myself. Why is that? Because when the integrity of a piece is important to someone, by changing it you are "killing" a part of that world to them. It is the same as when an adaptation of a book into film is done poorly, it takes the image of the universe that individuals who care about that universe see in their head, throws it out and replaces it with something inferior. In the case of iconic figures being changed, it is taking away a "hero" from one group and giving it to another, which is essentially taking away representation from one group to give it to someone else. I think its pretty obvious there why people are upset, because icons they relate to are having that relation removed. When it comes to changing the appearance of a fantasy race to be more representative, the same thing is happening. The very identity of the race is being eroded.

Does this mean I am against better representing people in media? No! Absolutely not. But I am against the changing of existing established identities to do so. There is the alternative, creating new media to represent people. Not only does this have the advantage of not eroding existing identities, but it also creates a richer universe, featuring more than the universe that came before. New races can be created, new heroes can be added, new cultures can be inserted and the fictional universe would be better off with all of that. So with all of that being said, I will defend maintaining the lore appearance of elves in the Forgotten Realms, even if I think the lore is bad, because if you aren't willing to defend the settings other people care about when people try to change them, then you cannot expect other people to come and defend the fictional universes you do care about if the same thing happens :P

With all of that being said, the elves in BG 3 are decidedly not elven enough and should be further modified to better represent their in lore appearance :P


While I agree with part of your argument I don't necessarily think it applies to making elves more inclusive. This is a minor aesthetic change--not an alteration to their core concepts. Allowing them to have a greater range of features does not take anything away from people who view them as predominantly Caucasian. If elves belonged to one group, expanding it to others just means they have to share, as opposed to having it taken away from them entirely. No one is asking for more diversity to the exclusion of Caucasian features.

And D&D changes its existing, established identities with every new version of the game and updated source book. Just look at the tieflings. This isn't a inflexible franchise to begin with.

I also don't think creating new media is the answer to this problem, given how huge a property D&D is. Larian's answer to D&D is DOS and, personally, I couldn't really get into that world. I enjoy the world of D&D and in actual table top games we have the freedom to make our characters however we want. The line of thinking "If you don't like this one thing then maybe you should go elsewhere" is the exact kind of gatekeeping that I find so insidious, because it invalidates the feelings of people who otherwise DO love the world. (Btw, I don't think that's your intention--I'm referring to other posts and how others may use this logic to disregard the feelings of marginalized people.) Given that D&D IS a franchise that changes over time, clinging to certain aesthetic values while going along with other changes points to peoples' anxieties outside the game rather than a devotion to the immutability of the lore.
Originally Posted by Sharp
Ergh, why is it that people who argue against the changing of existing media to better represent underrepresented individuals almost always do such a poor job of doing so.

First off, some context about me, because I feel that in this case it is relevant to the discussion. I am South African. I can assure you, 90% or more of the things you may have assumed about me prior to reading this post are probably incorrect and I can also assure you that I am not well represented in online media at all and it would be nice if that was at some point changed. With that being said, there are 2 ways to improve representation. The first is to take an existing piece of media and change it to represent a different group of people and the second is to create new media to represent those groups.

Now, when it comes to D&D, I personally do not care if the entirety of the lore was thrown out and rewritten, I do not think it is particularly good to begin with and I do believe it could be much better than it currently is. I will still however defend the people who want to preserve the lore as is, even if I do not care about it myself. Why is that? Because when the integrity of a piece is important to someone, by changing it you are "killing" a part of that world to them. It is the same as when an adaptation of a book into film is done poorly, it takes the image of the universe that individuals who care about that universe see in their head, throws it out and replaces it with something inferior. In the case of iconic figures being changed, it is taking away a "hero" from one group and giving it to another, which is essentially taking away representation from one group to give it to someone else. I think its pretty obvious there why people are upset, because icons they relate to are having that relation removed. When it comes to changing the appearance of a fantasy race to be more representative, the same thing is happening. The very identity of the race is being eroded.

Does this mean I am against better representing people in media? No! Absolutely not. But I am against the changing of existing established identities to do so. There is the alternative, creating new media to represent people. Not only does this have the advantage of not eroding existing identities, but it also creates a richer universe, featuring more than the universe that came before. New races can be created, new heroes can be added, new cultures can be inserted and the fictional universe would be better off with all of that. So with all of that being said, I will defend maintaining the lore appearance of elves in the Forgotten Realms, even if I think the lore is bad, because if you aren't willing to defend the settings other people care about when people try to change them, then you cannot expect other people to come and defend the fictional universes you do care about if the same thing happens :P

With all of that being said, the elves in BG 3 are decidedly not elven enough and should be further modified to better represent their in lore appearance :P


Very well said, i wholly agree with the second paragraph most especially. I'm black too, and in the Elder Scrolls my favorite race (okay, second favorite, after Khajiit) are Redguards, and that's because they're not just some cringeworthy tribute to african people who dropped from the sky with their darker-skin and clothing choices built in. They come from a place that affected their looks and their culture. Again, they're not just Nords who happen to have brown skin 'cause diversity. Pillars of Eternity has a similar thing too, they're called Ocean Folk there i believe, and i love that just the same way.

But going back to the main topic, taking the Thalmor race, i think it's high elves, and making them look like Redguards, so african, for no other reason than 'diversity' would make no sense and only serve to take out from the lore and experience. And it's the exact same thing here, whether the lore is as detailed or not, and whether elves look too human or not.

Now, wanna 'diversificate' half-elves? Great, do it. I actually think there already are some more varied looking face templates there. Wanna make a whole new race that looks a certain way, and possibly give them reason to? Sure. Hell, to be honest i'd love it if humans had sub-races too, with just two stupid lines of text to explain why a character looks swedish or arabic, because that'd be hype and diversity done right too.

Having high elves look asian or african because they popped out that way? No, i don't like that.
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by Sharp
Ergh, why is it that people who argue against the changing of existing media to better represent underrepresented individuals almost always do such a poor job of doing so.

First off, some context about me, because I feel that in this case it is relevant to the discussion. I am South African. I can assure you, 90% or more of the things you may have assumed about me prior to reading this post are probably incorrect and I can also assure you that I am not well represented in online media at all and it would be nice if that was at some point changed. With that being said, there are 2 ways to improve representation. The first is to take an existing piece of media and change it to represent a different group of people and the second is to create new media to represent those groups.

Now, when it comes to D&D, I personally do not care if the entirety of the lore was thrown out and rewritten, I do not think it is particularly good to begin with and I do believe it could be much better than it currently is. I will still however defend the people who want to preserve the lore as is, even if I do not care about it myself. Why is that? Because when the integrity of a piece is important to someone, by changing it you are "killing" a part of that world to them. It is the same as when an adaptation of a book into film is done poorly, it takes the image of the universe that individuals who care about that universe see in their head, throws it out and replaces it with something inferior. In the case of iconic figures being changed, it is taking away a "hero" from one group and giving it to another, which is essentially taking away representation from one group to give it to someone else. I think its pretty obvious there why people are upset, because icons they relate to are having that relation removed. When it comes to changing the appearance of a fantasy race to be more representative, the same thing is happening. The very identity of the race is being eroded.

Does this mean I am against better representing people in media? No! Absolutely not. But I am against the changing of existing established identities to do so. There is the alternative, creating new media to represent people. Not only does this have the advantage of not eroding existing identities, but it also creates a richer universe, featuring more than the universe that came before. New races can be created, new heroes can be added, new cultures can be inserted and the fictional universe would be better off with all of that. So with all of that being said, I will defend maintaining the lore appearance of elves in the Forgotten Realms, even if I think the lore is bad, because if you aren't willing to defend the settings other people care about when people try to change them, then you cannot expect other people to come and defend the fictional universes you do care about if the same thing happens :P

With all of that being said, the elves in BG 3 are decidedly not elven enough and should be further modified to better represent their in lore appearance :P


Very well said, i wholly agree with the second paragraph most especially. I'm black too, and in the Elder Scrolls my favorite race (okay, second favorite, after Khajiit) are Redguards, and that's because they're not just some cringeworthy tribute to african people who dropped from the sky with their darker-skin and clothing choices built in. They come from a place that affected their looks and their culture. Again, they're not just Nords who happen to have brown skin 'cause diversity. Pillars of Eternity has a similar thing too, they're called Ocean Folk there i believe, and i love that just the same way.

But going back to the main topic, taking the Thalmor race, i think it's high elves, and making them look like Redguards, so african, for no other reason than 'diversity' would make no sense and only serve to take out from the lore and experience. And it's the exact same thing here, whether the lore is as detailed or not, and whether elves look too human or not.

Now, wanna do 'diversificate' half-elves? Great, do it. I actually think there already are some more varied looking face templates there. Wanna make a whole new race that looks a certain way, and possibly give them reason to? Sure. Hell, to be honest i'd love it if humans had sub-races too, with just two stupid lines of text to explain why a character looks swedish or arabic, because that'd hype and diversity done right too.

Having high elves look asian or african because they popped out that way? No, i don't like that.


Both of these posts, exactly. I'd be A-okay with a new setting that features only, say, African-looking humans and humanoids whose human features are taken from those. Could be an amazing IP. But it would be quite silly if an Asian person came and claimed "hey! change some of the faces because there's no Asian representation".

I'm against "diversity" if it's introduced for no reason other than diversity quota and political correctness. Especially if it's shoehorned to an existing setting.

And I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that "it's fantasy, it doesn't matter". Internal consistency is MASSIVELY important for a fictional setting, the only exception I can think of being certain types of comedic settings.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 07/12/20 09:59 AM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by Sharp
Ergh, why is it that people who argue against the changing of existing media to better represent underrepresented individuals almost always do such a poor job of doing so.

First off, some context about me, because I feel that in this case it is relevant to the discussion. I am South African. I can assure you, 90% or more of the things you may have assumed about me prior to reading this post are probably incorrect and I can also assure you that I am not well represented in online media at all and it would be nice if that was at some point changed. With that being said, there are 2 ways to improve representation. The first is to take an existing piece of media and change it to represent a different group of people and the second is to create new media to represent those groups.

Now, when it comes to D&D, I personally do not care if the entirety of the lore was thrown out and rewritten, I do not think it is particularly good to begin with and I do believe it could be much better than it currently is. I will still however defend the people who want to preserve the lore as is, even if I do not care about it myself. Why is that? Because when the integrity of a piece is important to someone, by changing it you are "killing" a part of that world to them. It is the same as when an adaptation of a book into film is done poorly, it takes the image of the universe that individuals who care about that universe see in their head, throws it out and replaces it with something inferior. In the case of iconic figures being changed, it is taking away a "hero" from one group and giving it to another, which is essentially taking away representation from one group to give it to someone else. I think its pretty obvious there why people are upset, because icons they relate to are having that relation removed. When it comes to changing the appearance of a fantasy race to be more representative, the same thing is happening. The very identity of the race is being eroded.

Does this mean I am against better representing people in media? No! Absolutely not. But I am against the changing of existing established identities to do so. There is the alternative, creating new media to represent people. Not only does this have the advantage of not eroding existing identities, but it also creates a richer universe, featuring more than the universe that came before. New races can be created, new heroes can be added, new cultures can be inserted and the fictional universe would be better off with all of that. So with all of that being said, I will defend maintaining the lore appearance of elves in the Forgotten Realms, even if I think the lore is bad, because if you aren't willing to defend the settings other people care about when people try to change them, then you cannot expect other people to come and defend the fictional universes you do care about if the same thing happens :P

With all of that being said, the elves in BG 3 are decidedly not elven enough and should be further modified to better represent their in lore appearance :P


Very well said, i wholly agree with the second paragraph most especially. I'm black too, and in the Elder Scrolls my favorite race (okay, second favorite, after Khajiit) are Redguards, and that's because they're not just some cringeworthy tribute to african people who dropped from the sky with their darker-skin and clothing choices built in. They come from a place that affected their looks and their culture. Again, they're not just Nords who happen to have brown skin 'cause diversity. Pillars of Eternity has a similar thing too, they're called Ocean Folk there i believe, and i love that just the same way.

But going back to the main topic, taking the Thalmor race, i think it's high elves, and making them look like Redguards, so african, for no other reason than 'diversity' would make no sense and only serve to take out from the lore and experience. And it's the exact same thing here, whether the lore is as detailed or not, and whether elves look too human or not.

Now, wanna do 'diversificate' half-elves? Great, do it. I actually think there already are some more varied looking face templates there. Wanna make a whole new race that looks a certain way, and possibly give them reason to? Sure. Hell, to be honest i'd love it if humans had sub-races too, with just two stupid lines of text to explain why a character looks swedish or arabic, because that'd hype and diversity done right too.

Having high elves look asian or african because they popped out that way? No, i don't like that.


Both of these posts, exactly. I'd be A-okay with a new setting that features only, say, African-looking humans and humanoids whose human features are taken from those. Could be an amazing IP. But it would be quite silly if an Asian person came and claimed "hey! change some of the faces because there's no Asian representation".

I'm against "diversity" if it's introduced for no reason other than diversity quota and political correctness. Especially if it's shoehorned to an existing setting.

And I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that "it's fantasy, it doesn't matter". Internal consistency is MASSIVELY important for a fictional setting, the only exception I can think of being certain types of comedic settings.


Yeah pretty much... I would enjoy play a setting like that. But shoehorn diversity for the sake of diversity means trow artistic integrity down to the toilet.

In shadowrun i player a Troll character that were black and a lovely elf that has asian tracts. But there fantasty creatures share human ethnicy as well because by the lore magic caused mutation in some individuals turning them in Elves,Troll and so on so human ethnicy tracts on those races are part of the Lore as well.
Posted By: Peranor Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 07/12/20 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by pinklily
Just gonna drop in again to say:

Elves are fictional creatures. They don't have to adhere to a rigid standard based on tradition. New traditions get created all the time. D&D is flexible when it comes to ensuring the best player experience. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be able to identify with the character you play by having it resemble you--that's why we have character creators.

Having greater diversity that reflects real world diversity hurts no-one and can dramatically improve the experience of people who have long been told they don't look like the "standard."



I don't get this. Why would I want to create an elf that looks like me? If I would be able to make an elf that looked like me it would not only be ugly, it woudl also no longer be an elf. It would be a human.
I can get behind implementing more diverse faces and ethnicities for the human race in BG3 for those that want to create a character that looks more like they do irl. But please don't make elves, dwarves etc just look like other humans with different stats.
My two cents: You should be able to create a player character who looks like absolutely anything. I don't understand people who just want to play a character who looks like them, but that might be because I'm a white guy. I play women around half the time (usually if a game has third-person cutscenes I prefer playing a woman, if strictly first person I prefer playing a guy). When it comes to race...it depends upon context. When I play fantasy games I typically play "white" character, because the settings are based upon European folklore, more or less. But when I play something like Mass Effect, my characters are always multiracial, because I feel like there would be very few people who aren't multiracial in the far future.

I will admit however that I have not liked the trend in modern fantasy (both games and movies/TV) to just pepper people of color around without really any context/explanation. The modern era - with people of very different looks all jumbled together - is a historical aberration. Traditionally speaking if a society is not racist, people intermix freely with one another, and in a few generations everybody looks pretty much the same again. I do think there needs to be more diversity in fantasy, but I'd rather this happen through say settings where the majority of characters are black, or big cosmopolitan cities. Going to random small villages and just finding a black dude or an Asian lady there with no explanation just...destroys immersion for me. It makes me realize I'm consuming media instead of being swept up in a story.
Posted By: Lethan Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 07/12/20 03:58 PM
I just want my Elves to look like Elves.

Not a Critique of LOTR, but those ... those aren't really Elves in my books. Sure, best examples around and are the 'parents' of the DnD type. But I'd like my pointier, slender, alien Elves please.

Also, what's with Lolth and non-Lolth Elves having different face presets? Fix that!
Posted By: Dexai Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 07/12/20 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by Telephasic
I will admit however that I have not liked the trend in modern fantasy (both games and movies/TV) to just pepper people of color around without really any context/explanation. The modern era - with people of very different looks all jumbled together - is a historical aberration. Traditionally speaking if a society is not racist, people intermix freely with one another, and in a few generations everybody looks pretty much the same again.


It's one of those examples of when people (mostly white Americans) want to "combat" racism by counter-intuitive enforcing real life American norms that only came to be in real life because of historically unusually extreme racism and xenophobia. It's pretty much a "separate but equal" fantasy that white Americans want to enjoy.
Posted By: Ixal Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 07/12/20 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by Telephasic
I will admit however that I have not liked the trend in modern fantasy (both games and movies/TV) to just pepper people of color around without really any context/explanation. The modern era - with people of very different looks all jumbled together - is a historical aberration. Traditionally speaking if a society is not racist, people intermix freely with one another, and in a few generations everybody looks pretty much the same again.


It's one of those examples of when people (mostly white Americans) want to "combat" racism by counter-intuitive enforcing real life American norms that only came to be in real life because of historically unusually extreme racism and xenophobia. It's pretty much a "separate but equal" fantasy that white Americans want to enjoy.

"There are not enough black people in a 15th century Bohemian backwater area!!!" (actual criticism of Kingdom Come Deliverance).
Posted By: Ankou Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 07/12/20 07:37 PM
I'll never play an elf until they can have beards, I can tell you that much.
Originally Posted by pinklily
Honestly, I feel like there's a dangerous level of gatekeeping going on here. Saying people should just not play a race or engage with a property just because they disagree with certain elements/would like those elements changed to incorporate more people is cruel. It is essentially saying, on some level, that they don't belong--which is the harmful psychological impact to which OP referred to in the initial post. Again, properties evolve. D&D was created in the 70s for a predominantly Caucasian demographic and its art reflected that. As the audience grows, there's nothing wrong with the content adapting to be more inclusive. The arguments and reference images I see for "elves should be angular and look different from humans" still look human with Caucasian features. I'm sure we've all seen people who are more angular than average. Even with this angular aesthetic preserved, there's no reason the finer features cannot reflect a greater variety of human ethnicities. (Of course, I think players should have as much freedom as they want with a character creator and should not be locked into a particular aesthetic.)

Also, design fidelity should not be conflated with narrative fidelity. Artwork and creature design for franchises can vary greatly with different iterations. Take Klingons from Star Trek, for example. Their appearance has changed in every new series they have been featured in. Iconic features like their forehead ridges were not introduced until the movies, their commonly recognized look was not formed until Next Generation and they even got a redesign for Discovery. These changes had no impact on narrative and did not have much of an impact on the franchise on a whole other than making Klingons look more iconic and less like a harmful stereotype.

Lore is not incontrovertible truth. It can and does evolve over time.



This is better than any of my posts in this thread. Well done! Thank you.

100% agree.
Originally Posted by Sharp
Ergh, why is it that people who argue against the changing of existing media to better represent underrepresented individuals almost always do such a poor job of doing so.

First off, some context about me, because I feel that in this case it is relevant to the discussion. I am South African. I can assure you, 90% or more of the things you may have assumed about me prior to reading this post are probably incorrect and I can also assure you that I am not well represented in online media at all and it would be nice if that was at some point changed. With that being said, there are 2 ways to improve representation. The first is to take an existing piece of media and change it to represent a different group of people and the second is to create new media to represent those groups.

Now, when it comes to D&D, I personally do not care if the entirety of the lore was thrown out and rewritten, I do not think it is particularly good to begin with and I do believe it could be much better than it currently is. I will still however defend the people who want to preserve the lore as is, even if I do not care about it myself. Why is that? Because when the integrity of a piece is important to someone, by changing it you are "killing" a part of that world to them. It is the same as when an adaptation of a book into film is done poorly, it takes the image of the universe that individuals who care about that universe see in their head, throws it out and replaces it with something inferior. In the case of iconic figures being changed, it is taking away a "hero" from one group and giving it to another, which is essentially taking away representation from one group to give it to someone else. I think its pretty obvious there why people are upset, because icons they relate to are having that relation removed. When it comes to changing the appearance of a fantasy race to be more representative, the same thing is happening. The very identity of the race is being eroded.

Does this mean I am against better representing people in media? No! Absolutely not. But I am against the changing of existing established identities to do so. There is the alternative, creating new media to represent people. Not only does this have the advantage of not eroding existing identities, but it also creates a richer universe, featuring more than the universe that came before. New races can be created, new heroes can be added, new cultures can be inserted and the fictional universe would be better off with all of that. So with all of that being said, I will defend maintaining the lore appearance of elves in the Forgotten Realms, even if I think the lore is bad, because if you aren't willing to defend the settings other people care about when people try to change them, then you cannot expect other people to come and defend the fictional universes you do care about if the same thing happens :P

With all of that being said, the elves in BG 3 are decidedly not elven enough and should be further modified to better represent their in lore appearance :P



Glad to see you in this thread, I got excited when I saw you'd posted. I was like, 'Yeah! Sharp's here to lay down the law!" Was a bit surprised when you ultimately came down on the side of keeping elves "pure" so to speak. Not that your argument isn't good. Of course, it is impeccable as always.

I guess I just don't care much about defending the sanctity of a made-up universe that ultimately only exists as a platform for entertainment. I've watched the lore for D&D change so much over the years, I consider it more of a fluid than a solid. However they change it, I still think it's cool. I can still have fun playing D&D, whether devils come from the lower planes or from the Astral Sea, whether gnolls are just some normal animal dudes who live on the plains or the demonic spawn of Yeenoghu.

What I care about more than lore consistency is the right of creators to change their IP however they wish. I want the Forgotten Realms to reflect whatever the current minds behind D&D think is the best for right now, instead of just clinging to old ideas. I want the people who are currently making content for a setting to be free to make whatever alterations they need to in order to tell good stories today, without the fandom losing its shit over minor details.

Even more important to me than that, however, is that these entertainment properties that we all enjoy are serving their audiences well. All of their audiences. Not just some of them. And that they're telling stories that serve the world well, telling them in ways that make the world better, rather than worse. And inclusivity is really important at this turning point in our history. But it's not even about the abstract "social issue" of diversity or the "prevailing politics" and trying to appease some agenda. It's about people like Saturdiva and their personal, heartfelt desires which have been ignored for so long. And even when she asks, nicely, sincerely, for something that is long overdue, no one hears her. They just come in to debate the "topic", to go on and on about how important The Lore™ is, but I don't see anyone actually responding to what she wrote. I don't see anyone acknowledging that they even heard her.


Originally Posted by Saturdiva

It's just the fact that growing up a brown geek girl, I didn't get to see many heroes who looked like me. I felt lucky if I got to see a female protagonist in the books, movies, and TV shows I was interested in.

It's weird not to see yourself reflected anywhere.

-

This quote resonated with me so hard; as a weird kid from a messed up home who listened to weird music and was into weird things, it made me even weirder that I was brown. The stories I escaped in were almost always about kids like me -- isolated, broken, difficult homes, different than others, but they ended up being special in some way. They ended up finding magic in some way. They ended up escaping and growing and becoming magic themselves in some way.

They were always white.

-

Sometimes it feels hard to explain why this matters to people who haven't experienced it. When you've lived your whole life in a world where the heroes look like you, talk like you (or like your ancestors), sound like you, have similar cultural experiences to you, most likely, you've never considered what it might be like to live in the absence of those heroes. And that's natural; that's normal.

-

Elves, in general, have always been a source of fascination to me. There are so many interpretations of them across so many texts and media, but one consistent theme is that they're these immortal, otherworldly, almost transcendent beings, made of magic, light of hand and foot, graceful, dexterous, with something elegant to them no matter how roguish or Drow-ish. At least, that's how they live in my imagination.

So rarely do people of color get to see themselves in such elegant roles.

I love playing elves -- I play other races, too, but elves are usually near the top of the list in terms of order.

So it's kind of disappointing and disheartening to see that it's not possible to play a female elf whose face isn't a reflection of Caucasian standards of beauty / Caucasian features, but rather shows someone who looks a little more like me -- Latinx, North African, a mix of ingredients that don't reflect the thin, petite noses and wide, round eyes of white female beauty, but rather a different kind of beauty... one just as capable of elven grace and dexterity and mastery of magic.

There are some gorgeous, diverse faces across the other races available for play, but those faces are not available for a female elf of any kind -- or even a half-elf. And that's really, really disappointing -- and I'm not sure why it is. Why can Tieflings, humans, dwarves, and halflings have features that resemble those of other races, but not elves?



If she feels this way, others feel this way. How many others? I couldn't say. But does it matter? Is there some arbitrary number, some specific amount of people who feel this way which would then make it valid? Which would then make them heard?
Originally Posted by pinklily

While I agree with part of your argument I don't necessarily think it applies to making elves more inclusive. This is a minor aesthetic change--not an alteration to their core concepts. Allowing them to have a greater range of features does not take anything away from people who view them as predominantly Caucasian. If elves belonged to one group, expanding it to others just means they have to share, as opposed to having it taken away from them entirely. No one is asking for more diversity to the exclusion of Caucasian features.

And D&D changes its existing, established identities with every new version of the game and updated source book. Just look at the tieflings. This isn't a inflexible franchise to begin with.

I also don't think creating new media is the answer to this problem, given how huge a property D&D is. Larian's answer to D&D is DOS and, personally, I couldn't really get into that world. I enjoy the world of D&D and in actual table top games we have the freedom to make our characters however we want. The line of thinking "If you don't like this one thing then maybe you should go elsewhere" is the exact kind of gatekeeping that I find so insidious, because it invalidates the feelings of people who otherwise DO love the world. (Btw, I don't think that's your intention--I'm referring to other posts and how others may use this logic to disregard the feelings of marginalized people.) Given that D&D IS a franchise that changes over time, clinging to certain aesthetic values while going along with other changes points to peoples' anxieties outside the game rather than a devotion to the immutability of the lore.



Another great post. I (quite literally) couldn't have said it better myself. I agree with all of this. The last sentence is especially on point.
Posted By: Rieline Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 07/12/20 09:28 PM
A good roleplayer don't expect a setting to adapt to him instead design a character whitin the setting. Pretending to change and destroy extabilished lore in a setting for the sake of inclusivity at all costs ruins a setting.
I am sorry i keep repeating myself but.

Elves in Forgotten realms are pretty well described. They are part of that setting. Pretending them to become humans with pointy ears harm the setting therefore not only detstroy the unique race they represent but is also a split in the face to who created the setting.

A thing is a base manual of D&D and using that one can craft his world and his setting where elves can be however they want. Another is expecting a setting to morph and trow away extabilished lore for the sake of nothing. ((is also why the 4th edition failed so miserabily))

I will always be for artistic integrity first. If a player comes to me and say: I want to play in a forgotten realms but i want my elf to be this and that not reflecting the source material.

I will answer: Then we have another option here we play on a homebrew setting.

The setting is important for roleplay is the base of a believeable world and also the base of Roleplay. If you ignore the setting then you don't know how to roleplay

Instead of crushing the Extabilished Lore. DO create new one not touching what is already there. That is the best solution.


Posted By: Sharp Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 07/12/20 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

I guess I just don't care much about defending the sanctity of a made-up universe that ultimately only exists as a platform for entertainment. I've watched the lore for D&D change so much over the years, I consider it more of a fluid than a solid. However they change it, I still think it's cool. I can still have fun playing D&D, whether devils come from the lower planes or from the Astral Sea, whether gnolls are just some normal animal dudes who live on the plains or the demonic spawn of Yeenoghu.



Of course, over time fictional universes change. This is to be expected. There is a difference between the natural evolution of a setting due to the passing of time and a deliberate change made in order to move towards a specific end goal. The latter is much closer to the concept of erasure, which (usually) refers to the replacement or whitewashing of a minority character or group with the dominant group. Sure, it might, "just be entertainment," but we all know that it isn't, "just entertainment," because if it was only entertainment, it wouldn't have evoked such a strong reaction in the OP in the first place. If you can understand how a marginalized group could be upset by not being represented, then its also possible to understand how a not marginal group could be upset due to having something that they potentially feel is theirs being rewritten.

Originally Posted by Firesnakearies


What I care about more than lore consistency is the right of creators to change their IP however they wish. I want the Forgotten Realms to reflect whatever the current minds behind D&D think is the best for right now, instead of just clinging to old ideas.

As I said in my post, I don't particularly care what they do with the setting, because I don't think its a good one :P With that being said, I hate the retconning of aspects of lore in the settings that I do care about, so I will usually take the side which stands against retconning, even if I find many of their arguments to be distasteful. However, it is possible to expand the lore of a setting, without erasing or replacing parts of it entirely. The forgotten realms are huge, there is plenty of space to introduce a new race or subrace, to allow for a better representation of minority groups, without taking away anything from anywhere else.

There are obviously things which can be done without changing the identity of a race, for example, allowing any hairstyle on (almost) any race. I say almost there because I am pretty sure that if you had horns like a tiefling, some of your hairstyles would be incompatible with other races, but they are the exception and not the norm. Things like changing the structures of the face of a race however, or its cultural background, would be undermining what that race is to begin with.

Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

I want the people who are currently making content for a setting to be free to make whatever alterations they need to in order to tell good stories today, without the fandom losing its shit over minor details.

Minor nitpick here, but I personally believe that the truly great stories are stories which are timeless and can be told in any era. A literary masterpiece isn't something that suddenly "goes out of fashion," because it tells a story which is universal, but I do get what you mean. The forgotten realms is not however, one of those settings that qualifies as a literary masterpiece.
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

Even more important to me than that, however, is that these entertainment properties that we all enjoy are serving their audiences well. All of their audiences. Not just some of them. And that they're telling stories that serve the world well, telling them in ways that make the world better, rather than worse. And inclusivity is really important at this turning point in our history. But it's not even about the abstract "social issue" of diversity or the "prevailing politics" and trying to appease some agenda. It's about people like Saturdiva and their personal, heartfelt desires which have been ignored for so long. And even when she asks, nicely, sincerely, for something that is long overdue, no one hears her. They just come in to debate the "topic", to go on and on about how important The Lore™ is, but I don't see anyone actually responding to what she wrote. I don't see anyone acknowledging that they even heard her.


It is important to me as well and I do believe I even addressed her post (although I did not directly quote it in my response). It is just that I don't believe representation in a fictional universe is a zero sum game. You do not need to take representation away from one group, in order to allocate it to another. There is always room to expand the setting and in doing so, you can elevate the setting in the process. Whereas, if you are retroactively rewriting the history of parts of the setting, you are almost always going to be making the setting weaker overall and step on peoples' toes in the process.
Originally Posted by Sharp
I personally believe that the truly great stories are stories which are timeless and can be told in any era. A literary masterpiece isn't something that suddenly "goes out of fashion," because it tells a story which is universal.




This is a good point, I can't argue with that.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 07/12/20 11:57 PM
I wish there were ways to send hearts to certain comments in here!!! Loads of yall are really making amazing points I just wanna <3 kiss kiss kiss <3
I miss the good old times when fantasy was not politicized.
And when Elves, which are a northern fantasy creature, would look like "Northern people" aka "Caucasian".
Which I am very grateful to see in Baldurs Gate 3 still being the case.

Elves are "Human like" but they are not Humans!
They are "Spirits" made flesh more than we as Humans should ever be.
Which means they also would not evolve to different climates -> and the "African, Asian, Caucasian" facial features etc. -> are just evolution trying to adapt the overall "Human archetype" to different climates.


But Elves are not Humans. And as in Forgotten Realms lore stated, they have Fae-heritage, a spiritual heritage from another dimension.
I doubt that a heritage so strong that it still goes strong even in a time of being exposed to a different material plane over generations, would be a weak one that succumbs to physical evolution to that plane.
" But why do they look like 'Caucasian' then? "
^
Becauce CAUCASIAN PEOPLE CAME UP WITH THEM.
Get used to it. Maybe a Half-Elf can have another heritage look, but no a full Elf.
That would be just wierd. And disrespectful to the original.


We all know this stereotype Alien called the "Gray" right?
This wierd bubblehead like dude with pitchblack eyes and a thin body?
Guess what this Alien is supposed to look like that.
What good would it do to give him another look and still call him a Gray?

" I find this offensive. "
[Linked Image]
Stfu Jiren, nobody takes Dragonball's universe(ses) that seriously anyways.


But Baldurs Gate 3 is supposed to be a pure work from before all that political bullsh°° began.

I feel very antanogized, demonized and stigmatized by the current climate, for being a "white" person.
What is anyone gonna da about this huh?
Oh yeah that is not important huh? Cause I am white!
And I just have to shut up and take it or I the hail of battle terms will rip me to pieces, right?


Some time in the last years I heard a wierd term being uttered by the "progressives" of our time. It was called "cultural appropriation".
But of course it was just another way to somehow protrait white people as mean, racist and all kinds of things.

Elves being "Caucasian" in their appearance, is actual culturally appropriate.
Since this is how they always where. At least the fullblooded Elves.
As I said Half-Elves - who knows?

But I really grow sick and tired of seeing "my culture" and "my beloved fantasy" being invaded because some other white people are pressured and bullied into doing all this wierd, submissive and kinda "enslaved" things, or otherwise they are called all kinds of evil things.
And maybe they get cancelled even since they dared not to "take a knee" to this disgusting hate filled bias against them "even though they are white".
It is wierd how everyone likes "white cultures" and "white fantasy", but the whites in it are soooooo racist and evil.
No they are not.


There are no Tieflings in our real world.
But currently as a white person, I feel like the Tiefling with the shamed and loathed heritage of our real world.
It felt pretty good to help them out in the Grove.
Posted By: vometia Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 08/12/20 08:33 AM
Closed for review.

Edit: reviewed (i.e. discussed with CM) so I am opening this again but let's just be careful where we go with it, folks...
Posted By: Blacas Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 08/12/20 02:03 PM
I'm going to disregard the OP.
My only intent is to focus on cosmetic and aesthetics aspects (or lack thereof).
Please show forbearance for my linguistic mistakes.

1- Roleplay
I think it's still worth mentioning that DnD is about roleplay and the game was praised for its psychological development benefits.
No extensive physical description of your character is required to play the game. And I never met a DM asking for a full description of my character facial traits (who, by definition, is not me).
In the official documentation, information about the physical appearance seems scarce. However it is actually sufficient.
What you need is to differenciate the races and this is done thanks to a very few elements. For some subraces, there is a simple and rather efficient way to identify them, mostly based on colours (skin / hair / eyes).
On the contrary, the amount of information pertaining to the environment, culture, history, religion and psychology is abundant.
You may want to enhance the aesthetics value of this realmlore but generating restrictions based on cosmetic choices would be detrimental.

That is the primary reason why you struggle to find a canonical description of the elven appearance.

Now let me gently make fun of you. Just for a few seconds , I swear.
Over 4 decades, many articles have been published to help players embody characters of all races.
Back in 1982, in the official magazine (which is still published under a different format), you could read this (as an introduction to a long article about elves):

Elves are much like humans in physical appearance. They are thinner and somewhat smaller, averaging about 5 feet tall, but not small enough for the size difference to affect the way elves see humans and vice-versa.
(end of physical description)

That does not prevent elves from having other features as re-highlighted in the description of half-elves but there is no fundamental need to make them explicit.
An interesting point about half-elves is that they are said to be easily mistaken for members of either race, thus substantiating the claim that the differences between humans and elves are kept minimal. There is another contributing factor in the description of hereditary traits potentially found in their human descendants: it's limited to pointed ears and infravision.

Of course, a lot and a lot of lore has been published since then and, back then, the Forgotten Realms campaign setting wasn't published yet.
However why would you introduce more specific physical features? In a game about imagination and creativity, what good would it do?
Posted By: Blacas Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 08/12/20 02:04 PM
2- mythology
There are other reasons why elves are hard to describe, noticeably because of their DnD mythology.
First I would like to point out that DnD elves are not Tolkien's elves.
The DnD game universe is really like a sponge absorbing pieces of lore from so many sources. Even though it is obvious to me that Tolkien's popularity had a huge impact on the DnD content, the DnD elven lore has many references to how elves were perceived, in our real world, across the centuries.
In the cosmogony and in the mythology, DnD elves are modeled on that of real world lore and legends in a quite chronological manner.

At first they are chaotic, shapeshifting, free-flowing like their chaotic and invisible european model.
When some of them decide to become more "defined" and then adopt an elven identity, thus renouncing part of their fundamental chaotic nature, a conflict occurs. Their greater god casts them out of their homeland and a diaspora takes place.
No doubt you'll find all the details you want on the Internet.
All of that is a DnD myth but it helps to better comprehend and substantiate the elven nature.

The part I'm interested in is their new main homeland: the feywild of self-descriptive nature.
Again it's akin to the mid/late middle age elves seen as fey, and as such, creatures in realms of enchantements and illusion (at least in continental Europe + British Isles)
There the elves take shape, modeled after the Leshay. Not a helpful reference because this is a chicken and egg problem, the leshay being described as albino elves. However this indicates that the prime material creatures, including humans, are not their functional model.
In a world so imbued with magics, it is easy to understand how difficult it would be to proceed to the definition of their canonical appearance. By the way the so called nobles, or the most elv-ish of them so to speak, named Eladrin, are still able to change their appearance to some extent.
The environment is also effective at generating sub-races. AFAIK the sun / moon / green / dark elf subdivison predates their arrival on Toril.

Our artistic representation of fairies is quite unrestrictive, obeying no standard. Anthropocentrism remains the main constant though. And of course there is the witch trait archtype when there is a need to describe the creatures as scary or spooky. Same thing with DnD elves, it is very contextual.
Among the works that influenced DnD, there is one particular source describing slender, high cheek bones, pointy ear creatures, these are the dark elves in Anderson's literature (let's be honest I haven't verified). Yes they just need to be scary whereas the light elves, their counterpart in (part of) the norse mythology, are reputed for their beauty.

Incidentally, as DnD elves are not Tolkien copy-paste, themselves influenced by their norse ancesters, they have no reason to inherit the fair-folk cliché / euro-morphotype associated (for debatable reasons) to Tolkien's elves. Well on condition that you do not mistake one for the other.
Similarities between the two narratives do not help though.
Moreover elves spread over all the continents when they came to Toril. If they had to adopt yet another precise morphotype there is absolutely no reason to specifically take the faerunian, supposedly caucasian, model. Ah and btw humans were not yet civilised enough to interact with elves.
Posted By: Blacas Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 08/12/20 02:06 PM
3- contemporary representation
In Baldur's Gate and Shadows of Amn this diversity is still well represented. Some companions have that big eyes and high cheek bones combo but the two elvish villains are rather different. Even the one who should best represent her race, the queen Ellesime looks like a luscious human.
Paper publications show diverse models too.

So why is there a shift towards more angular and triangular faces in the early 2000s?
From the artistic standpoint the pattern is clearly not new, roswell like creatures, star-trekish influence, vampires etc.
The choice is not particularly original. Again the need to look alien and spooky.
In DnD, this is not a driven by the existing lore. And why just elves among the playable races. Other races on Toril are as alien as theirs (dwarves).

My personal interpretation is that one of the root causes is technology driven and not a sudden artistic preference.
The pnp publications, literature and artworks have no need for such constraints on their creativity.
However at 3e and 3.5e release time, the video game industry is fond of 3D games. For the DnD owner this is a distribution vector and a market segment of growing importance.
The graphics engine performances were rudimentary. Where a 2D engine always succeeded in differentiating the races with just the size and build as variables, those 3D engines required more. The old 3D processing capabilities leave no room for fine distinction. Just using pointy ears would have been too subtile. Redesigning the whole face in a drastic manner clearly helps.
Maybe it is also the opportunity for a new setting to leave its mark but we know what became of 3e and 4e...

For instance, have a look at the difference between the npc portraits and their 3d in-game models in the original Neverwinter Nights game.

15-20 years later, things are much different. Personally I welcome Larian's rollback to human faces of any type because I do not see those triangular options as an enhancement to the global aesthetics value. I am okay with pointy ears and the absence of facial hair as the main distinctive features.
This being said, I think the whole thing is a minor point in my overall gaming experience. I can get over with cosmetic options I dislike and I do not feel the narcissistic urge to be represented in a video game.
Posted By: Dove Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 09/12/20 08:23 PM
I just double checked the character creation in it's current state (very bare bones) but there is a lot of diversity amongst the fictional races that reflects actual human beings appearances.

Honestly there isn't a ton of options reflecting how I look in real life either. The halflings, dwarves, githyanki and tieflings don't look anything like me in facial structure either. I noticed there is a robust selection of skin color options present though, so that's great. Keep in mind that in it's current state, barely anyone will be able to create a character that looks like them in real life. It's a bare bones early access fantasy based video game. It doesn't need to be political.
First i want to give props on the level of detail in the characters. they look super realistic and well fleshed out. I do have to agree with some of the comments here though. I wish there was more diversity in facial structure and characteristics. I find myself wanting to play half elf solely because there faces best reflect me. I just wish i had more options .
Posted By: Bruh Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 10/12/20 09:40 AM
Originally Posted by Ramshine
First i want to give props on the level of detail in the characters. they look super realistic and well fleshed out. I do have to agree with some of the comments here though. I wish there was more diversity in facial structure and characteristics. I find myself wanting to play half elf solely because there faces best reflect me. I just wish i had more options .


RIGHT???
Half elves look more human then the humans ahahaha
I would like to say that while I do get OP's point, I believe that elves should look more otherworldly, as several people here have argued as well. It would also provide the option OP wants in the form of Wild Elves and Wood Elves. However, if Larian really does want to make elves nothing but "humans but with cool pointy ears" then there really is no reason not to add diverse facial types. Though, as unrealistic as it is, I would prefer BG3 Elves to be remade to look more alien so to speak.

I also agree with the slightly off-topic point brought up here that the creator should definitely feature sliders. Sadly, that is also an incredibly unrealistic idea thoigh.
Dude, stop using pseudo-science to try and justify not being inclusive, it just makes you look bad.

If elves were portrayed accurately they would not look like humans, but they do, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that, the problem is that they only look like certain types of humans, and there are people who want to identify themselves with their character no matter what race they choose.

This has nothing to do with politics, it's about not excluding people. Ask yourself, what the hell do you lose by letting other people have character options that represent their real life? You lose absolutely nothing except your oh so precious immersion, and to be honest, not even that, it's not like you'll be forced to play as a black woman or something. Trying to prevent other people from having fun with a game when you don't really lose anything by doing it just makes you an asshole.
Posted By: Bruh Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 11/12/20 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by VehementHalo


This has nothing to do with politics


Oh give me a break. Please stop trying to get your way by using real life political issues, it's tiresome and it's wrong.
Posted By: Arne Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 11/12/20 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by Lethan
I just want my Elves to look like Elves.

Not a Critique of LOTR, but those ... those aren't really Elves in my books. Sure, best examples around and are the 'parents' of the DnD type. But I'd like my pointier, slender, alien Elves please.

Also, what's with Lolth and non-Lolth Elves having different face presets? Fix that!


The point is that fantasy since Jules Verne was always about discussing different cultures, species, other worlds. Their advantages and drawbacks, their pitfalls and conflicts. The worst thing that can happen to such fantasy stories, movies or books is people who simply do not want to depict any differences, because then people have no reason playing the game.

Take Drow and Elves - they are so interesting because they have a completely different culture. Elves are long lived and have an entirely different society and view on life than humans. Drow are evil and cruel and have an entire society focused on war and strife.

And now imagine someone comes along who doesn't like the depiction of such different cultures or species. Who want his Elves to be humans with pointed ears. Who can't stand Drow being depicted as evil because they have a dark skin color. And who changes Drow into being largely good and Elves into being just humans with pointed ears.

In the end, they are all just boring and the same. Exactly because there is no difference between them. Ideology is one of the worst enemies of a good game.
Posted By: Bruh Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 11/12/20 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by Arne


The point is that fantasy since Jules Verne was always about discussing different cultures, species, other worlds. Their advantages and drawbacks, their pitfalls and conflicts. The worst thing that can happen to such fantasy stories, movies or books is people who simply do not want to depict any differences, because then people have no reason playing the game.

Take Drow and Elves - they are so interesting because they have a completely different culture. Elves are long lived and have an entirely different society and view on life than humans. Drow are evil and cruel and have an entire society focused on war and strife.

And now imagine someone comes along who doesn't like the depiction of such different cultures or species. Who want his Elves to be humans with pointed ears. Who can't stand Drow being depicted as evil because they have a dark skin color. And who changes Drow into being largely good and Elves into being just humans with pointed ears.

In the end, they are all just boring and the same. Exactly because there is no difference between them. Ideology is one of the worst enemies of a good game.

Hear hear!
Originally Posted by firebird71
I believe that elves should look more otherworldly, as several people here have argued as well. It would also provide the option OP wants in the form of Wild Elves and Wood Elves. However, if Larian really does want to make elves nothing but "humans but with cool pointy ears" then there really is no reason not to add diverse facial types. Though, as unrealistic as it is, I would prefer BG3 Elves to be remade to look more alien so to speak.


You mean like in Divinity for example, where you could see the branches and "plant spirit" like theme literally imprinted in their bodys?
I found that pretty wierd tbh but I must admit that was also kinda cool and new.

But the truly 'original Elf' had a look leaning onto the "European/Caucasian type Human".
Everything else is tryhard borderline political correctness and its cringe.
And in the case of original fantasy I find it highly offensive and disrespectful to the original theme.


I had a similar discussion on another website once.
But it was about Angels in general.
Not Celestials like in D&D, just Angels.

" Why are they White? Can there be Black/Brown Angels? "

My conclusion, sure why not. Ultimately Angels too aren't Human but their origin is absolutely primordeal from a spiritual existence.
I thought Angels take the forms they want to communicate with Mortals, in fact - they have no physical flesh appearance in the first place.
Maybe they identify with the forms they take. Maybe they don't. Who knows?

A narcistic Angel like "Lucifer" which embodies Pride might identify with his/her/it's form extremly, if you get my thought.

I always thought the Angels in Christianitys depiction are very much symbolic in nature.
They look simply white because the artists of that time had no imagination I think.
Or because they did not even knew what an Asian or African is. (LoL)


I think the Angels of Diablo are the coolest.
You really get this otherworldy, sacred vibe from them.
Allthough the Angels of that Universe can be pretty shitty personalitywise.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 11/12/20 07:42 PM
This really doesnt need to be that hard lads, it's simple

We all know some of you are not happy with the current appearance of the elves since they look too human and that should be for a different discussion it has nothing to do with what the OP is expressing!

But as we currently have it the elves do look human! And do represent certain features! And if they do decide to keep the state of the elves it would be nice to have more inclusive and diverse elves! THAT IS ALL!

It doesnt need to get political

This is dnd my g, its about thinking outside the box and playing a fantasy game, let me repeat FANTASY! You can literally do whatever you want and it's different for everyone! Dont be mad at people for wanting diversity!
Ooh can I make a drow with freckles?
Posted By: Bruh Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 11/12/20 10:18 PM
Originally Posted by A Clown
This really doesnt need to be that hard lads, it's simple

We all know some of you are not happy with the current appearance of the elves since they look too human and that should be for a different discussion it has nothing to do with what the OP is expressing!

But as we currently have it the elves do look human! And do represent certain features! And if they do decide to keep the state of the elves it would be nice to have more inclusive and diverse elves! THAT IS ALL!

It doesnt need to get political

This is dnd my g, its about thinking outside the box and playing a fantasy game, let me repeat FANTASY! You can literally do whatever you want and it's different for everyone! Dont be mad at people for wanting diversity!


How can you say that this doesn't have to be political all the while you try to force modern day politics of inclusivity and representation into a fantasy game? You do realize that only one side of the argument has to consider this political for it to be politcal, right? Also, the aforementioned Wild Elves are an option that could satidfy this demand. That being said I fully disagree with you, even if elves look human, they are NOT human.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 11/12/20 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by Bruh

How can you say that this doesn't have to be political all the while you try to force modern day politics of inclusivity and representation into a fantasy game? You do realize that only one side of the argument has to consider this political for it to be politcal, right? Also, the aforementioned Wild Elves are an option that could satidfy this demand. That being said I fully disagree with you, even if elves look human, they are NOT human.


Why you mad bro?

Will this inclusivity harm you? Why you mad?
Posted By: vometia Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 11/12/20 11:38 PM
I'm thinking we've probably exhausted this particular tangent and maybe it'd be better to agree to disagree and move on...
I just want to know that Larian has much more customization options in general. I dont care of what kinds of faces, I just want more for fun and general variety for all.
Originally Posted by A Clown
Originally Posted by Bruh

How can you say that this doesn't have to be political all the while you try to force modern day politics of inclusivity and representation into a fantasy game? You do realize that only one side of the argument has to consider this political for it to be politcal, right? Also, the aforementioned Wild Elves are an option that could satidfy this demand. That being said I fully disagree with you, even if elves look human, they are NOT human.


Why you mad bro?
Will this inclusivity harm you? Why you mad?


He isn't mad. That was a perfectly logical and accurate observation without emotional investment. (─‿‿─)

Elves are not Humans, but they are similar.
To give them a total freak appearance - even one that would not be "diverse", would still be disrespectful to the original.

I find it already disgusting that we can make a character ingame with colorations that make absolutely no sense.
The only way this feels tolerable for me is because I know nothing can force me to ever play with someone who made an Abomination colorwise.
Never ever felt I the need to look at a Rainbow on LSD.


But I keep saying it "politely".
Some things got invented by Caucasian/European people.
Those things were made popular and original by Caucasian/European people.

That is not racist, that is not mean, that is just what it is.
It was never meant to hurt, harm or offend anyone.
But to debate its right to remain original, is very offensive in itself.


All this Clownworld Meme's and cynical expressions of how nonsensical our society has become, how can it ever end with demands like this?

Imagine
° A representation of Japan, with Samurai and all, but they look like a Northamerican Native demographic.
° Africans are in fact so white now, it is snow-white. Oh yeah and their facial structure is whatever now. Everything EXCEPT African of course.
° Europeans have become the Borg, or Vulcans, or Klingons... cause this is wierdly pleasing for some virtue signaling individual.
° And Chinese people are now those blue Catpeople from the Pandora Movie.

When is enough crazyness enough? ζ༼Ɵ͆ل͜Ɵ͆༽ᶘ

Let me say it, whoever reads this, if you are a super minority looking Migrant in some white country, I am truly sorry for your lack of identification with a culture not created by your own ancestors but those of others.
I am sorry that you feel like you are not represented in it or that you feel invisible.
But that is just what it is.

Blame the game. Not the players.
And do not try to change the game until it resembles absolutely nothing anymore - and no majority anywhere in the world will ever truly agree to it.
Your birth heritage in this world is on another difficulty.
Dunno if you wanna feel proud about it or sad. But rest easy. There are A TON OF PEOPLE currently that cannot stop to virtue-signal towards yourself.

So wether you have Hard or Easy mode on, who knows?
But all this noise is slowly but surely starting to wake something very ugly and bigoted.
Cause majority people too have feelings.
And they too can feel "stigmatized" and treated unfairly.


Do we play the game as it was intended?
Or do we cry and whine about it all day until absolutely no one has any motivation left to play it anymore?
And I am feeling like a lower-class human already by being of the "native demographic" on the northern hemisphere.

I have to endure the cocky, narcistic preaching of hollow people probably until the day I die, just so that they themself can feel better about themself because of their virtue signaling.
And the cocky demands and hostility shown to me "in case I dare to disobey", lets say I already know how it must feel like to be truly seen as lesser for my outer appearance.
If people of other visual appearance would be treated like that, especially those of minoritys, holy hell would this be seen as racism quickly!

There is even a slur like n-word for my demographic as well, as soon as I dare to resist the call for obedience!
It has something to do with a group of people that grew very popular in Europe during the 1930's.
Posted By: Bruh Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 12/12/20 11:17 AM
Originally Posted by A Clown


Why you mad bro?

Will this inclusivity harm you? Why you mad?

I doubt that I'm the mad one here.
And it's not about me, it's about the game world. And yes, pushing real life politics unto a fantasy world will harm it significantly from many points of view.
Posted By: vometia Re: Character Creation - Race and Appearance - 12/12/20 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by vometia
I'm thinking we've probably exhausted this particular tangent and maybe it'd be better to agree to disagree and move on...

And I think we're done here.
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