Larian Studios
Posted By: guy Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 12:00 AM
Allow us to take the templates the premades have in character creation, such as vamp spawn for example.

But the option to play your premade characters?

Yawn. This isn't your other games, from what I read in the forums, people here are not interested in it.

But templates? Hidden areas that are template specific?

Like making a druid, that has a option to join the shadow druids, and open a whole different line.

Or playing as a goblin or hobgoblin starting in the camp, and has a different angle on the tadpole - you start out just recieving the tadpole.

So instead of origins, allow a choice to play from the angle of invernus, the angle of the mindflayers, the angle of the tieflings, the angle of the goblins.
All would be in the same area, but all would have different goals and objectives.
The mindflayers might even have dug out a spot near their crashed ship in a cave to lick their wounds,

Just typing that makes my heart skip a beat, and it sticks with the tadpole story line.

Which I still want more origin options than tadpoles... but different angles on the tadpole, I would be more than happy with too!
Posted By: Niara Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 01:08 AM
I don't mind having companions with interesting and personal stories - but they need to be strongly secondary to the core story of the game, and the core story of the game needs to focus on, and make the player character feel like the actual protagonist.

The 'origins' aren't companions and don't feel like them, in that sense; it's very obvious that they are all designed to BE the protagonist, far more so than the player character, and the result is that they feel like mary-sues, who are every so much more important than anything else that's going on. I'm happy to get involved with their personal stories and side quests, but they should be that - side quests that are complimentary and related, but secondary to the main game's story, which the player, is ultimately the lead figure in; companions follow the group's leader (the player), *Because* that focus is ultimately more important than their personal story, and they're aware of it; it doesn't detract from the importance of their personal goals, but if their personal stories are so much grander and more important and focused upon than the core, then the reason for them follow our lead evaporates, and that is what happens here. When these characters travel with us, the extreme majority of their interactions revolve around demonstrating through dialogue just how much superior to us they are, and we rarely, if ever, get any opportunity to do anything beyond simply letting them; I'm int he process of testing the new interactions now, but the overall mode of their presence and cooler-than-you importance hasn't changed.

When you say templates, this brings to mind what I was thinking of and hoping for when they said 'origin avatars': What I'd really like would be if we could, rather than playing AS the origin characters, select from optional origin templates when making a custom character - and yes, they might load up when selected with a default name (Gale), and a default race and appearance (human male), but would be entirely renamable, and recustomisable to the character we'd like to play, and we could slip into the role of someone from that origin, but as the person we want to play as. The game should ultimately be about our characters - not Larian's.

If we don't pick an origin template, then we should still have an interwove story and background (or one of several to pick from), and the game can certainly predefined *some* elements of it for us to help work our custom character into the setting more, while letting us define and establish other less integral aspects of our history as we go - NWN2 did this to great effect, as an example. It would be the 'default' origin story, and wouldn't be represented by a companion if it wasn't taken.

As for the other suggestions here, it's an interesting idea, but I don't see how they'd be able to rectify that many different angles and motivations to align into a coherent story without functionally having to make multiple entirely separate games - not that it's not interesting (it is!), I just don't see how alternates that are that different could all channel into the same base game and feel believable.

That saaaid.....

In older editions there was a specific type of mindflayer that, after ceremorphosis actually came out the other side visually unchanged and completely resembling the person they were before-hand, and even to a certain extent retaining some of the sense of self and personality of that person. They could act as infiltrators and the like, and passed entirely well as the person they used to be, but still had to feed on brains and psychic energy. They were also prone to breaking away from the goals and plans of their elder brain and going rogue... Hmmm...
Posted By: guy Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 01:22 AM
Originally Posted by Niara
I don't mind having companions with interesting and personal stories - but they need to be strongly secondary to the core story of the game, and the core story of the game needs to focus on, and make the player character feel like the actual protagonist.

The 'origins' aren't companions and don't feel like them, in that sense; it's very obvious that they are all designed to BE the protagonist, far more so than the player character, and the result is that they feel like mary-sues, who are every so much more important than anything else that's going on. I'm happy to get involved with their personal stories and side quests, but they should be that - side quests that are complimentary and related, but secondary to the main game's story, which the player, is ultimately the lead figure in; companions follow the group's leader (the player), *Because* that focus is ultimately more important than their personal story, and they're aware of it; it doesn't detract from the importance of their personal goals, but if their personal stories are so much grander and more important and focused upon than the core, then the reason for them follow our lead evaporates, and that is what happens here. When these characters travel with us, the extreme majority of their interactions revolve around demonstrating through dialogue just how much superior to us they are, and we rarely, if ever, get any opportunity to do anything beyond simply letting them; I'm int he process of testing the new interactions now, but the overall mode of their presence and cooler-than-you importance hasn't changed.

When you say templates, this brings to mind what I was thinking of and hoping for when they said 'origin avatars': What I'd really like would be if we could, rather than playing AS the origin characters, select from optional origin templates when making a custom character - and yes, they might load up when selected with a default name (Gale), and a default race and appearance (human male), but would be entirely renamable, and recustomisable to the character we'd like to play, and we could slip into the role of someone from that origin, but as the person we want to play as. The game should ultimately be about our characters - not Larian's.

If we don't pick an origin template, then we should still have an interwove story and background (or one of several to pick from), and the game can certainly predefined *some* elements of it for us to help work our custom character into the setting more, while letting us define and establish other less integral aspects of our history as we go - NWN2 did this to great effect, as an example. It would be the 'default' origin story, and wouldn't be represented by a companion if it wasn't taken.

As for the other suggestions here, it's an interesting idea, but I don't see how they'd be able to rectify that many different angles and motivations to align into a coherent story without functionally having to make multiple entirely separate games - not that it's not interesting (it is!), I just don't see how alternates that are that different could all channel into the same base game and feel believable.

That saaaid.....

In older editions there was a specific type of mindflayer that, after ceremorphosis actually came out the other side visually unchanged and completely resembling the person they were before-hand, and even to a certain extent retaining some of the sense of self and personality of that person. They could act as infiltrators and the like, and passed entirely well as the person they used to be, but still had to feed on brains and psychic energy. They were also prone to breaking away from the goals and plans of their elder brain and going rogue... Hmmm...


Everything you typed i could get 100% behind.

Yes, Origin Templates would be a very nice feature!

Playing as Larian's roleplaying party? Trash. Sorry to say Larian.

As for the other angles, I feel like they have enough foundation to build it into the game with what they have.

And I am definitely going to speak my mind, and let the devs decide "Hey, we can do that!." or... "Well..."

I personally want different origin issues besides tadpoles.
Stuff that is serious enough to confer powers and what not, and to force you to want to seek others out, to for others to seek you out.

There is just so much foundation here they can build with I feel like. So much of it has me excited, and it would be a tragedy if they wasted it worthless features like playing as origin characters.
Posted By: Tzelanit Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 06:15 AM
I like the origins, so this is a big ole shrug from me.

Until a game developer actually gets to the point where a custom character is fully-voiced and has a massive questionnaire attached to character creation that will dictate what I'm likely to do in different situations and how I feel about certain ideologies, an origin character will always be my go-to because I'd rather have a complete experience with a dedicated personality that's set in stone. The idea of "Tav" awkwardly emoting or only choosing from oversimplified options throughout the adventure is terribly boring to me.

A game developer would need to partner with someone like eHarmony and come up with some 300 question survey and include an MBTI test in order to have a custom character feel like they're of any consequence to the world.
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 06:49 AM
At this point in development, Larian can just polish all the origins stories.
However as adding tons of templates in an expension/DLC Im 100% with you. That would be incredible.
Posted By: dotmats Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 09:33 AM
Originally Posted by Niara
snip


+all I have.

As far as I can tell, Larian's origin system is a bit like their surface system: no one cares about it anywhere near as much as they do. Origins in particular just seem like wasted resources that should have been spent on a greater diversity of options for customising the player character - sub-classes with their own dialogue choices/ quests/ NPC reactions, perhaps a DA:O origin system that works to anchor your character to the world, a much more expansive "background" feature, that kind of thing.

Agree with mr_planescapist that this is pretty useless as feedback at this point, despite being valid criticism. The best they can do is make the most of it but I'm not overwhelmed by the project management side of BG3. Too much wasting of their/ our time.
Posted By: biomag Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 10:07 AM
If it weren't for the DOS-influenced combat the origin characters would be the most hated feature for me. I don't like them. I really don't like what influences it had on the development of the game and I most likely because of all that won't use them even as companions.

All the effort put in those GM created characters should have been spent on the player character and improving their experience. Companions should be designed as NPCs and good as NPCs, not player characters.
Posted By: Dexai Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 10:10 AM
Originally Posted by Niara
I don't mind having companions with interesting and personal stories - but they need to be strongly secondary to the core story of the game, and the core story of the game needs to focus on, and make the player character feel like the actual protagonist.

The 'origins' aren't companions and don't feel like them, in that sense; it's very obvious that they are all designed to BE the protagonist, far more so than the player character, and the result is that they feel like mary-sues, who are every so much more important than anything else that's going on. I'm happy to get involved with their personal stories and side quests, but they should be that - side quests that are complimentary and related, but secondary to the main game's story, which the player, is ultimately the lead figure in; companions follow the group's leader (the player), *Because* that focus is ultimately more important than their personal story, and they're aware of it; it doesn't detract from the importance of their personal goals, but if their personal stories are so much grander and more important and focused upon than the core, then the reason for them follow our lead evaporates, and that is what happens here. When these characters travel with us, the extreme majority of their interactions revolve around demonstrating through dialogue just how much superior to us they are, and we rarely, if ever, get any opportunity to do anything beyond simply letting them; I'm int he process of testing the new interactions now, but the overall mode of their presence and cooler-than-you importance hasn't changed.

When you say templates, this brings to mind what I was thinking of and hoping for when they said 'origin avatars': What I'd really like would be if we could, rather than playing AS the origin characters, select from optional origin templates when making a custom character - and yes, they might load up when selected with a default name (Gale), and a default race and appearance (human male), but would be entirely renamable, and recustomisable to the character we'd like to play, and we could slip into the role of someone from that origin, but as the person we want to play as. The game should ultimately be about our characters - not Larian's.

If we don't pick an origin template, then we should still have an interwove story and background (or one of several to pick from), and the game can certainly predefined *some* elements of it for us to help work our custom character into the setting more, while letting us define and establish other less integral aspects of our history as we go - NWN2 did this to great effect, as an example. It would be the 'default' origin story, and wouldn't be represented by a companion if it wasn't taken.

As for the other suggestions here, it's an interesting idea, but I don't see how they'd be able to rectify that many different angles and motivations to align into a coherent story without functionally having to make multiple entirely separate games - not that it's not interesting (it is!), I just don't see how alternates that are that different could all channel into the same base game and feel believable.


Your thoughts are gold, Niara.
Posted By: DistantStranger Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 10:25 AM
Originally Posted by guy
Allow us to take the templates the premades have in character creation, such as vamp spawn for example.

But the option to play your premade characters?

Yawn. This isn't your other games, from what I read in the forums, people here are not interested in it.

But templates? Hidden areas that are template specific?

Like making a druid, that has a option to join the shadow druids, and open a whole different line.

Or playing as a goblin or hobgoblin starting in the camp, and has a different angle on the tadpole - you start out just recieving the tadpole.

So instead of origins, allow a choice to play from the angle of invernus, the angle of the mindflayers, the angle of the tieflings, the angle of the goblins.
All would be in the same area, but all would have different goals and objectives.
The mindflayers might even have dug out a spot near their crashed ship in a cave to lick their wounds,

Just typing that makes my heart skip a beat, and it sticks with the tadpole story line.

Which I still want more origin options than tadpoles... but different angles on the tadpole, I would be more than happy with too!


+1.
\
I could get behind this
Posted By: Skeletor Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 10:46 AM
Please do NOT scrap origins!
I love all these characters and I want to play as them!
If anything full voice-acting for the custom character should be scrapped because it's not even done yet and as such it would not be a waste!
I want to play as companions, in fact that's pretty much what I do in all Baldurs Gate games! (Currently playing BG2 as Minsc).

Please Larian do not listen to these people, I love your ideas about playable companions, and I also loved playing as Red Prince in DoS2
Even though there are many people who complain about you, know that I support what you are doing and I consider the gameplay so far to be absolutely amaizng and satisfying!
Please don't scrap origins!
Posted By: dotmats Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 10:50 AM
Originally Posted by Skeletor
Please do NOT scrap origins!
I love all these characters and I want to play as them!
If anything full voice-acting for the custom character should be scrapped because it's not even done yet and as such it would not be a waste!
I want to play as companions, in fact that's pretty much what I do in all Baldurs Gate games! (Currently playing BG2 as Minsc).

Please Larian do not listen to these people, I love your ideas about playable companions, and I also loved playing as Red Prince in DoS2
Even though there are many people who complain about you, know that I support what you are doing and I consider the gameplay so far to be absolutely amaizng and satisfying!
Please don't scrap origins!


You're playing as a BG2 companion without the origin system, so what's the problem?

edit: also, this is extremely rude: "Please Larian do not listen to these people [because I personally disagree]"
Posted By: Skeletor Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 10:56 AM
Originally Posted by dotmats
Originally Posted by Skeletor
Please do NOT scrap origins!
I love all these characters and I want to play as them!
If anything full voice-acting for the custom character should be scrapped because it's not even done yet and as such it would not be a waste!
I want to play as companions, in fact that's pretty much what I do in all Baldurs Gate games! (Currently playing BG2 as Minsc).

Please Larian do not listen to these people, I love your ideas about playable companions, and I also loved playing as Red Prince in DoS2
Even though there are many people who complain about you, know that I support what you are doing and I consider the gameplay so far to be absolutely amaizng and satisfying!
Please don't scrap origins!


You're playing as a BG2 companion without the origin system, so what's the problem?


The problem is that making it happen is easy with BG2.You just choose the portrait of a given character, assign them the same stats and download their voiceset. That's it!

Making that happen in BG3? Good luck!
You can't select Astarion's voice acting and headmorph in character creation either, so that's off the table as well!

I'm really looking forward to play as the origin characters, in fact that's the main appeal of the game for me if they force a voice acted protagonist on us!
If I get stuck with a voice acted MC AND I can't play as origin characters, I will not buy the game. Something's gotta give.
Posted By: DistantStranger Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 10:59 AM
Originally Posted by Skeletor
Originally Posted by dotmats
Originally Posted by Skeletor
Please do NOT scrap origins!
I love all these characters and I want to play as them!
If anything full voice-acting for the custom character should be scrapped because it's not even done yet and as such it would not be a waste!
I want to play as companions, in fact that's pretty much what I do in all Baldurs Gate games! (Currently playing BG2 as Minsc).

Please Larian do not listen to these people, I love your ideas about playable companions, and I also loved playing as Red Prince in DoS2
Even though there are many people who complain about you, know that I support what you are doing and I consider the gameplay so far to be absolutely amaizng and satisfying!
Please don't scrap origins!


You're playing as a BG2 companion without the origin system, so what's the problem?


The problem is that making it happen is easy with BG2.You just choose the portrait of a given character, assign them the same stats and download their voiceset. That's it!

Making that happen in BG3? Good luck!
You can't select Astarion's voice acting and headmorph in character creation either, so that's off the table as well!

I'm really looking forward to play as the origin characters, in fact that's the main appeal of the game for me if they force a voice acted protagonist on us!
If I get stuck with a voice acted MC AND I can't play as origin characters, I will not buy the game. Something's gotta give.


Dude, if the OP suggestion is taken, Astarion would be the default character. All that is being asked is the ability to edit him into something more amenable to our own individual sense of asthetics
Posted By: Phea Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 11:01 AM
Originally Posted by Skeletor

I love all these characters and I want to play as them!

Same here!

I totally understand the previous posts, but it's impossible to make a big game in which you can fully create your own character and to design the world to treat this character as this special person you made as a player. That's why always choose origin characters, even if I don't really like them (this was my problem in DOS, but I chose an origin character anyway) - because devs know them and can prepare the whole world and NPCs for them. They are not able to make the same for your potential vampire tieflings, paladin drows and other. All they can do they're already doing - making special lines for their classes and races, but it's all they can do. Maybe they could make origin templates, but remember that these origin characters personality, NPCs and plot would be copied too. You would always play as Astarion or Gale, the only reason would be your race, name, or sometimes class (I can't imagine barbarian Gale for example, his story is strictly connected to his class). And even this would create problems - what if we can meet, let's say, Shadowheart's parents in the next acts? If you change her race, devs would have to think about it too - they would have to create EVERY possible combination of her parents - like drow + hight elf, dwarf + dwarf, tiefling + tiefling etc.

Tabletop RPGs are great, because you can create your own character and experience the world as this very specific person, but sadly it's simply impossible in cRPGs.
Posted By: DistantStranger Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 11:10 AM
Originally Posted by Phea
Originally Posted by Skeletor

I love all these characters and I want to play as them!

(I can't imagine barbarian Gale for example, his story is strictly connected to his class). And even this would create problems - what if we can meet, let's say, Shadowheart's parents in the next acts? If you change her race, devs would have to think about it too - they would have to create EVERY possible combination of her parents - like drow + hight elf, dwarf + dwarf, human + tiefling etc..


So as to the first, noone is saying there cannot be basic pre requisites. To access an origin dealing with magic, one would obviously need to play certain classes. This is reasonable and presents no undue burden. As to the second. . .That is the sort of thing programming was made to do, execute basic if - then commands. If player is an Elf then parents equal Elves. Again, easy to implement and fail proof. This suggestion is incredibly easy to facilitate and there is really no reason not to use it. The only thing I see being an issue is voice work because then all male and female dialogues would have to be recorded by all voice actors. That would be a huge and discouraging cost. . .But ultimately I think it would be worth it to do something this liberating and unique. It really would be moving the state of the game forward.
Posted By: Skeletor Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 11:10 AM
Originally Posted by DistantStranger


Dude, if the OP suggestion is taken, Astarion would be the default character. All that is being asked is the ability to edit him into something more amenable to our own individual sense of asthetics



Yeah but that would leave me without the ability to play as Wyll and Shadowheart.
I want to play them too.

I'M sorry but Larian is doing something better then what you guys suggest.
Posted By: Phea Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 11:11 AM
@DistantStranger It's not only about these parents look from my example. It's also writing and context. You can't just generate this.
Posted By: DistantStranger Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 11:12 AM
Originally Posted by Skeletor
Originally Posted by DistantStranger


Dude, if the OP suggestion is taken, Astarion would be the default character. All that is being asked is the ability to edit him into something more amenable to our own individual sense of asthetics



Yeah but that would leave me without the ability to play as Wyll and Shadowheart.
I want to play them too.

I'M sorry but Larian is doing something better then what you guys suggest.


No it doesn't. This suggestions take nothing out of the game, it only adds further option for those who wish to pursue it. The origin characters don't disappear, they simply become unlocked so players can alter them to suit their own tastes. Vanilla is perfectly valid
Posted By: DistantStranger Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 11:14 AM
Originally Posted by Phea
@DistantStranger It's not only about these parents look from my example. It's also writing and context. You can't just generate this.


Yes you can, games do it all the time. This is what programming does, it permeates outcomes based upon formulaic variable. Like an excel spreadsheet. Input dictates output.
Posted By: Skeletor Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 11:18 AM
Yeah but a character is about a story and a background. What you suggest is basically BG3 having several Commander Shephard's that you can tweak into your liking instead of actual characters you can play as.
If you want to play as a custom character thats fine, but Larian is already doing that. Astarion is Astarion, he is a rogue and thats it.
Gale is inseparable from his Wizardry, he wouldn't even work as a sorcerer, because he is too much of a nerd.
Posted By: Dexai Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 11:20 AM
Originally Posted by dotmats

edit: also, this is extremely rude: "Please Larian do not listen to these people [because I personally disagree]"


No, it's not. It's the same as we are doing. Asking Larian to listen to our preferences rather than someone else's.
Posted By: DistantStranger Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 11:27 AM
Originally Posted by Skeletor
Yeah but a character is about a story and a background. What you suggest is basically BG3 having several Commander Shephard's that you can tweak into your liking instead of actual characters you can play as.
If you want to play as a custom character thats fine, but Larian is already doing that. Astarion is Astarion, he is a rogue and thats it.
Gale is inseparable from his Wizardry, he wouldn't even work as a sorcerer, because he is too much of a nerd.


If you feel that way then play Gale as he is. All this would do is allow other people to have a comparable experience but in ways which make sense to them. How they could potentially play would not impact anyone else in the slightest
Posted By: Niara Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 11:27 AM
I might also mention - we have something we choose, in character generation, called "background".

If they fleshed those out from the hand book, into proto-story bases that pre-define a certain handful of details about your character, and then build on those details within the world using those background tags, it would at least somewhat do the job of creating an anchored feeling for our character that we nevertheless got to choose... all the groundwork for doing that is already there, and they could most certainly have focused on doing that, rather than creating dialogue lines that anyone should be able to say and gating them behind race or class tags (apparently, according to Larian's current design, only halflings are allowed to council people to calm down and talk our their arguments...)
Posted By: dotmats Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 11:33 AM
Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by dotmats

edit: also, this is extremely rude: "Please Larian do not listen to these people [because I personally disagree]"


No, it's not. It's the same as we are doing. Asking Larian to listen to our preferences rather than someone else's.


It isn't what I feel like I'm doing, which is understanding that my opinion will be one opinion and it's up to them to choose what to take from it/ do.
Posted By: biomag Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 11:33 AM
My problem with the crappy origin characters Larian is making is that significant parts of their story happen before you can even touch them. Its basically starting Mass Effect with Mass Effect 2 - Gale relationship with a god and even reaching the point to even be noticed by her? You find out about it in the game. Astarions 200 year long life? Yeah, again you read about it, as a player you have no clue. Shadowhearts background? Once again, miss special has a lot happening before you even play her. Same with all the others. You have no authority of the character. Same as with Geralt in Witcher 1 and let's face it, it was a big issue for everyone not knowing the books. Its just a crap way to introduce a player character. This is ok for a NPC because you find out about their past by interacting with them, but it turns you into a spectator when it comes for your own character - you neither experience their past, nor do you have any influence on it, which makes it even worse when it has significant parts of the character building in it that define the character for the rest of the story. That's simply not a player character.


But to each there own. DOS2 was an utterly average game for me and BG3 is turning out to be the same based on the same mistakes they are making.
Posted By: Skeletor Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 11:36 AM
Originally Posted by dotmats


edit: also, this is extremely rude: "Please Larian do not listen to these people [because I personally disagree]"

Dude, what is rude about praising Larian for what they are doing if I like it?
Posted By: DistantStranger Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by biomag
My problem with the crappy origin characters Larian is making is that significant parts of their story happen before you can even touch them. Its basically starting Mass Effect with Mass Effect 2 - Gale relationship with a god and even reaching the point to even be noticed by her? You find out about it in the game. Astarions 200 year long life? Yeah, again you read about it, as a player you have no clue. Shadowhearts background? Once again, miss special has a lot happening before you even play her. Same with all the others. You have no authority of the character. Same as with Geralt in Witcher 1 and let's face it, it was a big issue for everyone not knowing the books. Its just a crap way to introduce a player character. This is ok for a NPC because you find out about their past by interacting with them, but it turns you into a spectator when it comes for your own character - you neither experience their past, nor do you have any influence on it, which makes it even worse when it has significant parts of the character building in it that define the character for the rest of the story. That's simply not a player character.


But to each there own. DOS2 was an utterly average game for me and BG3 is turning out to be the same based on the same mistakes they are making.


Well RPGs have some serious market share, but they are still niche. Not everyone has our ready familiarity with it and origin characters can inspire those unfamiliar with the potential of RPGs and excite their imagination. I think it is all to the good, honestly, though I agree these specific characters are way too over the top for my tastes. . .But when I think back to my first characters and how when I would write up their backgrounds, I would pull everything I had ever fallen in love with from all of the books I had ever read and pour it into them and I made a lot of garish characters before I acquired taste and restraint. I don't care for these backgrounds, but I am not overly bothered by them either. And. . .There is evidence some people really love them, and I wouldn't want to destroy something that means that much to someone simply because I don't myself care for it. I care about how the game is written and experienced through game play far more than how those aspects we don't experience were written about.

Just my personal opinion on that, not an argument
Posted By: dotmats Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 11:43 AM
Originally Posted by Skeletor
Originally Posted by dotmats


edit: also, this is extremely rude: "Please Larian do not listen to these people [because I personally disagree]"

Dude, what is rude about praising Larian for what they are doing if I like it?

The rudeness is starting by petitioning for people to be ignored. Nothing about what your opinion actually is.
Posted By: biomag Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by DistantStranger
Originally Posted by biomag
My problem with the crappy origin characters Larian is making is that significant parts of their story happen before you can even touch them. Its basically starting Mass Effect with Mass Effect 2 - Gale relationship with a god and even reaching the point to even be noticed by her? You find out about it in the game. Astarions 200 year long life? Yeah, again you read about it, as a player you have no clue. Shadowhearts background? Once again, miss special has a lot happening before you even play her. Same with all the others. You have no authority of the character. Same as with Geralt in Witcher 1 and let's face it, it was a big issue for everyone not knowing the books. Its just a crap way to introduce a player character. This is ok for a NPC because you find out about their past by interacting with them, but it turns you into a spectator when it comes for your own character - you neither experience their past, nor do you have any influence on it, which makes it even worse when it has significant parts of the character building in it that define the character for the rest of the story. That's simply not a player character.


But to each there own. DOS2 was an utterly average game for me and BG3 is turning out to be the same based on the same mistakes they are making.


Well RPGs have some serious market share, but they are still niche. Not everyone has our ready familiarity with it and origin characters can inspire those unfamiliar with the potential of RPGs and excite their imagination. I think it is all to the good, honestly, though I agree these specific characters are way too over the top for my tastes. . .But when I think back to my first characters and how when I would write up their backgrounds, I would pull everything I had ever fallen in love with from all of the books I had ever read and pour it into them and I made a lot of garish characters before I acquired taste and restraint. I don't care for these backgrounds, but I am not overly bothered by them either. And. . .There is evidence some people really love them, and I wouldn't want to destroy something that means that much to someone simply because I don't myself care for it. I care about how the game is written and experienced through game play far more than how those aspects we don't experience were written about.

Just my personal opinion on that, not an argument


Yeah, I don't want to limit it now either. Its too late and all the bad influences for the game are already in there (like the way cinematics are done, story that has been writen, amount of time spent on making origin characters both NPCs and PCs,...). I just generally don't like this approach. If you drop your GM characters on the players show some restraint to leave room for the players to customize them and actually experience their story. But everything Larian is doing with characters is in my opinion very unexerpienced and causes issues. Especially if you keep in mind that the 'very important custom character' story is also only exerpienced by the player if he plays the way they want the player to do it (using the tadpole). If you don't do it, you get nothing.

So to me Larian made huge mistakes that have already put BG3 on a path that they can hardly correct. Being critized for it with DOS2 and repeating it for BG3 shows that they either didn't understand or value their own perspective more than what players say. I can just judge their work based on what they said BG3 would be and to me they failed to deliver a meaningful custom character experience because they stick to their ways.

But since they are already in the game, just let those enjoy it that do. At this point they can't cause any additional harm.
Posted By: guy Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by Tzelanit
I like the origins, so this is a big ole shrug from me.

Until a game developer actually gets to the point where a custom character is fully-voiced and has a massive questionnaire attached to character creation that will dictate what I'm likely to do in different situations and how I feel about certain ideologies, an origin character will always be my go-to because I'd rather have a complete experience with a dedicated personality that's set in stone. The idea of "Tav" awkwardly emoting or only choosing from oversimplified options throughout the adventure is terribly boring to me.

A game developer would need to partner with someone like eHarmony and come up with some 300 question survey and include an MBTI test in order to have a custom character feel like they're of any consequence to the world.


They would not need to do a survey.

I personally don't care about the voice acting.

That is not to say the voice actors don't do a good job. They do.
Posted By: guy Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 12:13 PM
Originally Posted by Skeletor
Originally Posted by dotmats
Originally Posted by Skeletor
Please do NOT scrap origins!
I love all these characters and I want to play as them!
If anything full voice-acting for the custom character should be scrapped because it's not even done yet and as such it would not be a waste!
I want to play as companions, in fact that's pretty much what I do in all Baldurs Gate games! (Currently playing BG2 as Minsc).

Please Larian do not listen to these people, I love your ideas about playable companions, and I also loved playing as Red Prince in DoS2
Even though there are many people who complain about you, know that I support what you are doing and I consider the gameplay so far to be absolutely amaizng and satisfying!
Please don't scrap origins!


You're playing as a BG2 companion without the origin system, so what's the problem?


The problem is that making it happen is easy with BG2.You just choose the portrait of a given character, assign them the same stats and download their voiceset. That's it!

Making that happen in BG3? Good luck!
You can't select Astarion's voice acting and headmorph in character creation either, so that's off the table as well!

I'm really looking forward to play as the origin characters, in fact that's the main appeal of the game for me if they force a voice acted protagonist on us!
If I get stuck with a voice acted MC AND I can't play as origin characters, I will not buy the game. Something's gotta give.


I had to LOL for this.

Like a adult head on a baby body
Posted By: guy Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by biomag
My problem with the crappy origin characters Larian is making is that significant parts of their story happen before you can even touch them. Its basically starting Mass Effect with Mass Effect 2 - Gale relationship with a god and even reaching the point to even be noticed by her? You find out about it in the game. Astarions 200 year long life? Yeah, again you read about it, as a player you have no clue. Shadowhearts background? Once again, miss special has a lot happening before you even play her. Same with all the others. You have no authority of the character. Same as with Geralt in Witcher 1 and let's face it, it was a big issue for everyone not knowing the books. Its just a crap way to introduce a player character. This is ok for a NPC because you find out about their past by interacting with them, but it turns you into a spectator when it comes for your own character - you neither experience their past, nor do you have any influence on it, which makes it even worse when it has significant parts of the character building in it that define the character for the rest of the story. That's simply not a player character.


But to each there own. DOS2 was an utterly average game for me and BG3 is turning out to be the same based on the same mistakes they are making.



This. Yes.

Give the characters background, it is fine.

But making them the main cast over your characters? Meh.
Posted By: guy Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 12:16 PM
Originally Posted by biomag
Originally Posted by DistantStranger
Originally Posted by biomag
My problem with the crappy origin characters Larian is making is that significant parts of their story happen before you can even touch them. Its basically starting Mass Effect with Mass Effect 2 - Gale relationship with a god and even reaching the point to even be noticed by her? You find out about it in the game. Astarions 200 year long life? Yeah, again you read about it, as a player you have no clue. Shadowhearts background? Once again, miss special has a lot happening before you even play her. Same with all the others. You have no authority of the character. Same as with Geralt in Witcher 1 and let's face it, it was a big issue for everyone not knowing the books. Its just a crap way to introduce a player character. This is ok for a NPC because you find out about their past by interacting with them, but it turns you into a spectator when it comes for your own character - you neither experience their past, nor do you have any influence on it, which makes it even worse when it has significant parts of the character building in it that define the character for the rest of the story. That's simply not a player character.


But to each there own. DOS2 was an utterly average game for me and BG3 is turning out to be the same based on the same mistakes they are making.


Well RPGs have some serious market share, but they are still niche. Not everyone has our ready familiarity with it and origin characters can inspire those unfamiliar with the potential of RPGs and excite their imagination. I think it is all to the good, honestly, though I agree these specific characters are way too over the top for my tastes. . .But when I think back to my first characters and how when I would write up their backgrounds, I would pull everything I had ever fallen in love with from all of the books I had ever read and pour it into them and I made a lot of garish characters before I acquired taste and restraint. I don't care for these backgrounds, but I am not overly bothered by them either. And. . .There is evidence some people really love them, and I wouldn't want to destroy something that means that much to someone simply because I don't myself care for it. I care about how the game is written and experienced through game play far more than how those aspects we don't experience were written about.

Just my personal opinion on that, not an argument


Yeah, I don't want to limit it now either. Its too late and all the bad influences for the game are already in there (like the way cinematics are done, story that has been writen, amount of time spent on making origin characters both NPCs and PCs,...). I just generally don't like this approach. If you drop your GM characters on the players show some restraint to leave room for the players to customize them and actually experience their story. But everything Larian is doing with characters is in my opinion very unexerpienced and causes issues. Especially if you keep in mind that the 'very important custom character' story is also only exerpienced by the player if he plays the way they want the player to do it (using the tadpole). If you don't do it, you get nothing.

So to me Larian made huge mistakes that have already put BG3 on a path that they can hardly correct. Being critized for it with DOS2 and repeating it for BG3 shows that they either didn't understand or value their own perspective more than what players say. I can just judge their work based on what they said BG3 would be and to me they failed to deliver a meaningful custom character experience because they stick to their ways.

But since they are already in the game, just let those enjoy it that do. At this point they can't cause any additional harm.


Larian will make the choice they will make.

But I have faith that I have a voice, that I can state my opinion, and that Larian may take it into account.
Posted By: dotmats Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 12:17 PM
"All the great prophets lack discretion and human understanding. I witness pain, old age, death, bad decisions in a videogame and I know that they cannot be overcome; but why should I spoil another's en-joyment with my knowledge? Suffering and the consciousness of its inescapability lead to renunciation; yet nothing would induce me, not even if I were to become a leper, to condemn another's joy."
Posted By: guy Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by dotmats
"All the great prophets lack discretion and human understanding. I witness pain, old age, death, bad decisions in a videogame and I know that they cannot be overcome; but why should I spoil another's en-joyment with my knowledge? Suffering and the consciousness of its inescapability lead to renunciation; yet nothing would induce me, not even if I were to become a leper, to condemn another's joy."


Larian said they want feedback wink this thread is a good feel for how people feel about origins.

One for, MANY against.

The ball is in Larians court now.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 12:33 PM
I don't hate origin characters per se, indeed, I think it's a step forward for games in general to introduce both custom and fixed protagonists. This grants you the benefits of both: you can have very specific tailored story and reactions for your fixed (origin) characters and the freedom/versatility of custom characters. In theory, it's a great system and I hope it evolves into something amazing over the years.

However, this requires massive resources which are completely wasted if the dual system isn't done REALLY well. From what I can tell, it isn't in BG3.

What the OP calls templates, and I "half-origins" or "DA:O-style origins", is something I've been long advocating for. It's the best of two worlds: customizability and extra reactivity. You could have a whole spectrum of those: from something that could be mostly recreated with custom characters, but with extra backstory, to something very specific/"odd" like the oft-suggested custom vampire spawn. Depending on the chosen "half-origin", different things could be locked; only Criminal background (and everything else customizable) for a member of a certain gang, most things locked for a tiefling sage from Sigil or an exiled/runaway ex-Lolth priestess. An extra benefit of this system is that it would likely take less work to make a bunch of these than to make one origin. From what Larian said, BG3 origins are ridiculously content-heavy.

I am, however, against the option to customize existing, fixed origins. This would remove one advantage they have: expanded story and reactivity. Diluting those would make origins completely half-assed.

Regarding (D&D-sense) backgrounds Niara mentioned: I... half-agree. Backgrounds could definitely use more reactivity, but tying custom character backgrounds to specific backstories would remove some of the "custom" from custom characters. It would need to be done very carefully. I respect Larian's reason for removing background dialogue options - though, like I said, I still think something more could be done with backgrounds. Just... carefully and with lots of consideration.
Posted By: DistantStranger Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 12:46 PM
Originally Posted by dotmats
"All the great prophets lack discretion and human understanding. I witness pain, old age, death, bad decisions in a videogame and I know that they cannot be overcome; but why should I spoil another's en-joyment with my knowledge? Suffering and the consciousness of its inescapability lead to renunciation; yet nothing would induce me, not even if I were to become a leper, to condemn another's joy."


Any chance you live in central California and enjoy bourbon? If so, I have a weekly drinking night with some buddies I imagine you might be welcomed at. Once the C-19 blows over anyway. its a closed circle til then
Posted By: dotmats Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 01:18 PM
Originally Posted by DistantStranger
Originally Posted by dotmats
"All the great prophets lack discretion and human understanding. I witness pain, old age, death, bad decisions in a videogame and I know that they cannot be overcome; but why should I spoil another's en-joyment with my knowledge? Suffering and the consciousness of its inescapability lead to renunciation; yet nothing would induce me, not even if I were to become a leper, to condemn another's joy."


Any chance you live in central California and enjoy bourbon? If so, I have a weekly drinking night with some buddies I imagine you might be welcomed at. Once the C-19 blows over anyway. its a closed circle til then


6000 miles away, according to google, but on the other hand I do like bourbon.
Posted By: DistantStranger Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 01:36 PM
Well if you are ever in the neighborhood, just quote Cioran again to gain immediate entry and acceptance into whatever I am doing at that moment.

Those who love philosophy all too few in number anymore to simply disregard and accommodating any number of them is always worth the inconvenience for the sake of conversation.
Posted By: Phea Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by DistantStranger
Originally Posted by Phea
@DistantStranger It's not only about these parents look from my example. It's also writing and context. You can't just generate this.


Yes you can, games do it all the time. This is what programming does, it permeates outcomes based upon formulaic variable. Like an excel spreadsheet. Input dictates output.


Yes, but you still have to write lines which your program will use to generate dialogue. You have to fill these excel spreadsheet with something and you have to carefully plan it to avoid silly results.
This is why I love to create my own characters in tabletop RPGs and I don't really like to do it in video games - they will always be generic to some extent.
Posted By: Eddiar Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 04:29 PM
No!

They are great, i love exploring unique characters with in depth stories rather than just a blank slate.
Posted By: EMC_V Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 05:28 PM
Like the OP, I don't like origins and I would like more options for custom characters, like better dialoge options, more chances to take the initiative and to have the last word. Also, it would be nice to have a quest that is only for custom character and doesn't depend on using the tadpole. Right now, it looks as ifcthey are putting lots of effort in the origins while forgeting the custom characters.

If they didn't promised that custom characters wouldn't feel lacking, then people like me simply wouldn't buy the game and the people who enjoy origins would just play the origins. But they wanted that people who didn't liked DoS2 system to but their game. Now they have two choices, deliver what they promised or try to lie their way out of this.

But right now, the custom character looks way less developed and disappointing.

What I won't do is play as an origin character. I tried that in Dos2 and I hated it. Half the time it was as some other person playing for me instead of me. For me origins would be just companions, nothing else.
Posted By: alice_ashpool Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 05:28 PM
i like them and i will play them. the world is full of crpgs which do not do origin stories, larian is one of the only developers which do this, so i think it is quite self-centered to want to remove them from one of the few crpgs that actually does them for the sake of idk what? fortunatly i think there is very little chance they will be removed: if the VA has already been contracted or already recorded and since things like storyline, character design etc will already have been worked on considerably the argument seems to hinge on wanting larian to pour a lot of money down the toilet to remove one of the games unique features.
Posted By: EMC_V Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 05:53 PM
I won't remove them at this point. But I expectcthe same level of work and options for custom characters. Otherwise, Larian would have deceived people like me, who don't like origins and could have perfectly skip the game and leave it to the people who love origins.

As you said, the world is full of rpg and I could have bought another. I think it is deceitful yo promise something, not even try to deliver and then say "but if you play the game the way I want to, you would change your mind and if you still didn't like it, you are wrong". No, if they wanted to do DoS3, they should have been upfront about it. The problem is not that they put lots of effort in the origins, the problem is that they haven't developed custom to be played as a main character. Maybe because they don't like their characters to be secondary. But if the player choose custom, then custom is main character and origins should be secondary. That is the point.

And it is selfish to expect people who don't like origins to just put up with a subpar plot and less options.
Posted By: Verte Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
i like them and i will play them. the world is full of crpgs which do not do origin stories, larian is one of the only developers which do this, so i think it is quite self-centered to want to remove them from one of the few crpgs that actually does them for the sake of idk what? fortunatly i think there is very little chance they will be removed: if the VA has already been contracted or already recorded and since things like storyline, character design etc will already have been worked on considerably the argument seems to hinge on wanting larian to pour a lot of money down the toilet to remove one of the games unique features.


+1
Origins are fine, its the custom that needs more work.
Posted By: Drath Malorn Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 07:09 PM
I'm one of those who don't give a damn about Origins Character. I hope to be able to have a satisfying experience playing only custom characters.

Larian advertised well-enough that they wanted to make their game feel like the DnD tabletop experience. So I hope custom characters won't be an after-thought.

That being said, any request that involves "please throw all that time and money away" are unlikely to be met. It's not a reason for people to censor themselves, but really, that's unlikely to happen.

Originally Posted by dotmats
As far as I can tell, Larian's origin system is a bit like their surface system: no one cares about it anywhere near as much as they do. Origins in particular just seem like wasted resources that should have been spent on a greater diversity of options for customising the player character - sub-classes with their own dialogue choices/ quests/ NPC reactions, perhaps a DA:O origin system that works to anchor your character to the world, a much more expansive "background" feature, that kind of thing.

I think we'd need to have hard data polled from players (including the future audience who doesn't hang on the Larian forums) to truly know about the first statement. But I agree with all the rest.

What I don't understand is why they decided to make 5 (or 8 ?) Origins Characters. Half of that would have been enough.

As much as I can praise Larian's bold decision to create content that will not be experienced by everyone, with multiple ways to solve inter-dependent quests and the resulting permutations (non-universally-experienced content being the main reason why "choices matter" is so hard to do for video game developers), I think that creating that many different Origins Character was pouring a lot of resources into the same idea, and I hope there'll be resources left for non-Origins character.


Originally Posted by Niara
I don't mind having companions with interesting and personal stories - but they need to be strongly secondary to the core story of the game, and the core story of the game needs to focus on, and make the player character feel like the actual protagonist.

I fully agree with the fact that personal quests of companions should be secondary to the core story of the game. But I think the core story of the game should just be the tadpoles, the Absolute and whoever is behind.

We have these Special One stories all the time. But "a band of adventurers foils the grand-scale plans of some evil deity (or deities)" is a self-sufficient story. As far as I know, most DnD campaigns don't make one player at the table be the lead character and the other players play second roles. It's a party of equals, who band together and cooperate. I know, this is a (mostly-solo) video game. But Larian claimed they want this to feel like the tabletop DnD experience.

I don't need to be THE hero. This doesn't have to be MY story. I'd like it to be the epic adventure of four failed True Souls puppets who made some pantheon-changing plans go wrong.
Posted By: alice_ashpool Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by EMC_V

And it is selfish to expect people who don't like origins to just put up with a subpar plot and less options.

The op is advocating for removing already existing content in one area because they feel that content in another related area is sub-par in comparison. it feels petty and punitive. I am saying keep that content, do not remove it. I find it hard to see what is selfish about not wanting roleplaying things removed from the game that already exist and money has already been spent on. This is not a zero sum thing: removing origins will not magically make custom "better", though for some reason people seem to think that is how it would work. As verte says, don't remove the origins, bring the custom up to standard and use the level of detail put into the origins as a benchmark which you can then point to and say: we want this level of effort for custom pcs too.
Posted By: Drath Malorn Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
As verte says, don't remove the origins, bring the custom up to standard and use the level of detail put into the origins as a benchmark which you can then point to and say: we want this level of effort for custom pcs too.

I'm fully behind this.
Posted By: Zellin Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 07:52 PM
I'm voting for making the custom character more interesting for sure. I wrote some time ago here my suggestions about how exactly:
Quote
1. The custom character (CC) importance.
After quite a lot of thinking I realized that it doesn't matter how much you untie the origins from the main plot, it doesn't matter how much you tone down their stories, the problem just is not really in them. We had quite a lot of oh-so-special companions in other RPGs. The only difference is that we couldn't take them as our own character that doesn't really matter in comparing their importance with our main character's importance there. So it's the CC himself lacking his own upsides added in the plot. And here my thoughts on how it can be changed without taking away the freedom to have whatever backstory for our CCs in our heads:
1.1. Add the very special connection to the main plot only for the custom character.
It should be something the character himself couldn’t know before the main plot came into motion. Maybe he was observed by The Absolute before, got favored and now he has a different kind of tadpole that gives him special powers over the rest of tadpole users. Maybe he has some relation with whoever The Absolute is (yes, that’s somewhat BG1 all over again, but still better than being Tav-named nobody).
1.2. Make the custom character the only one type of glue to paste them all together for companions as continuation of those special tadpole powers.
You have Lae’zel and Shadowheart hating each other, Astarion being so paranoid that aggressive at the first meeting, Gale jumping on our character from the teleport, Wyll fighting goblins before becoming the part of our party. At the moment it all may become fatal for them, but we pass our checks and everything is fine. So let’s imagine that no one but the very special person with the very special tadpole and maybe Wyll can persuade Lae’zel and Shadowheart to put their differences aside, no one but that person and maybe Gale can deal with Astarion in a non-lethal way, and so on. As an option to make it not so harsh on players it may be just different DC for the checks. Also it may be partially based on companions classes, in such a way that we would always get a viable party.
1.3. Additionally maybe… I know it’s tons of work… but add a small level for the custom character before Avernus as a flashback of his normal day. And then a personal quest that involves someone he knew before.
The flashback level should be based on our choice of race and background. It will exist only to establish a connection between our character and a few NPC. The character has his normal no-adventures day and meets some friends/rivals/mentors. It should be short dialogs starting with the narrator characterising the NPC for us and us choosing the relationships. Like this:
N: Here comes Charles as pompous as always. Just a local thug, he never knew when to stop adoring himself. But some people think it’s just a part of his specific sense of humor, which many find amusing. You…
P: 1. …never liked this jerk. 2. … always were good friends with him, knowing that’s the humor for sure. 3. …never really paid too much attention to him. 4. …learned a lot from him.
After that the story should proceed mostly as normal. But at some point we should meet the same characters being somehow involved in the whole situation with The Absolute or any other suitable disaster.
1.4. One more big “maybe”… put some restrictions based on their temper for Origins as the player characters in single-player.
That’s the last resort and maybe probably will be hated by many players, but at the same time it’s logical. If we are taking the role of Shadowheart on ourselves, we should role-play Shadowheart with all her specifics (like hating Lae’zel and not willing to take her in the group for example). Same with each one of them.

Funny enough, I got only one type of answers, like "we don't want to be special".
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 08:03 PM
I'd be more interested in Origins if they played like, in some way, the Witcher plays, just less. Yeah, have the player decide some major things, but otherwise let the characters act as they would and watch their stories unfold.

I guess the system lends itself to people who are for the one and done approach, i myself don't remotely see the appeal in picking, say, Lae'zel and being a paragon of good.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by Innateagle
I'd be more interested in Origins if they played like, in some way, the Witcher plays, just less. Yeah, have the player decide some major things, but otherwise let the characters act as they would and watch their stories unfold.

I guess the system lends itself to people who are for the one and done approach, i myself don't remotely see the appeal in picking, say, Lae'zel and being a paragon of good.


Agreed. If you go for fixed characters, go all the way and have them have a distinct personality even as playable origins. So it makes full use of the "specific character" type of PC.
Posted By: alice_ashpool Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 08:31 PM
Seriously. Scrap gnomes, does anyone actually play them? Instead of gnomes concentrate on something players ACTUALLY like: elf subraces.
Posted By: Phea Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by Innateagle
I'd be more interested in Origins if they played like, in some way, the Witcher plays, just less. Yeah, have the player decide some major things, but otherwise let the characters act as they would and watch their stories unfold.

Ok, that would be super cool for me. Right now my only problem with playing origins is the fact I won't be able to enjoy their dialogues, expressions and stuff as much as I do when they are my companions.

I hope the issue you're talking about will be at least partially solved thanks to origins' special lines we could see in Swen's gameplay presentation.
Posted By: dotmats Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
I

Originally Posted by dotmats
As far as I can tell, Larian's origin system is a bit like their surface system: no one cares about it anywhere near as much as they do. Origins in particular just seem like wasted resources that should have been spent on a greater diversity of options for customising the player character - sub-classes with their own dialogue choices/ quests/ NPC reactions, perhaps a DA:O origin system that works to anchor your character to the world, a much more expansive "background" feature, that kind of thing.

I think we'd need to have hard data polled from players (including the future audience who doesn't hang on the Larian forums) to truly know about the first statement. But I agree with all the rest.


Sure, some like origins, but do they like them as much Larian? Is it possible to like them that much? We should task our best forum scientists to find out.
Posted By: Dheuster Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 08:51 PM
DOS2 allowed you to customize the appearance of your origin story characters within the boundaries of the race. And later you found a mirror that allowed you to customize the appearance, feats and stats of your companions as well. But you couldn't change their race or class. I assume BG3 will eventually allow the same.

Origin stories are a good compromise between different story experiences and budget. For example, take the origin characters name. If you want anyone in the game to be able to say that characters name, it has to be known upfront. So Name and Gender are generally locked down so they don't have to record 4 or 6 people saying all of that characters lines. So I don't have a problem with a button that says "Astarion". It is a male character named Astarion with some traits and a backstory that you will read about above the persons head.

It would be nice if BG3 let us do more than DOS2 did. For example, Wyll needs to be a Warlock, but could he also chose some of the other races? Laz'el must be a Gith, but does she have to be a fighter? Gale needs to be a mage, but does he have to be human? And does Astarion have to be a rogue or an elf? Of the available options, shadowheart seems to be the most constrained.

So I am in favor of expanding our ability to customize the Origins as much as possible, but I am NOT in favor of scrapping them for generic templates. The Template play through is what we are play testing right now.

There are some other great comments in here in regards to companion treatment of the player. I will note that in real life, most relationships are in fact self-serving. So I find the current reactions and commentary pretty realistic and in line with the NPCs personalities. The only unrealistic thing is that Laz sticks around as long as she does if you don't maintain progress on her quest (new stage every day) until a certain milestone is reached. I think Larian should focus on adding more good natured companion options and less on fixing the current companion options.
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by Phea
Originally Posted by Innateagle
I'd be more interested in Origins if they played like, in some way, the Witcher plays, just less. Yeah, have the player decide some major things, but otherwise let the characters act as they would and watch their stories unfold.

Ok, that would be super cool for me. Right now my only problem with playing origins is the fact I won't be able to enjoy their dialogues, expressions and stuff as much as I do when they are my companions.

I hope the issue you're talking about will be at least partially solved thanks to origins' special lines we could see in Swen's gameplay presentation.


Yeah, that's what i meant. My favorite companion right now is SH, knowing that why would i ever want to pick her as my Origin, and in so doing overreding her personality with whatever i want her to be? Similarly, if one goes into with the one and done mentality, maybe their favorite character could be Astarion, but since they picked him because he looks cool all they're gonna get is a watered down version of him.

It's a very weird and confusing system, and one of the reasons i got DoS2 a couple of years ago but still didn't get out of the ship.
Posted By: Maerd Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 05/12/20 10:55 PM
Origin characters are interesting, generally better written, and fun to play. Therefore, I suggest we just scrap OP's opinion instead.
Posted By: FelLich Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 01:48 AM
Personally I'll, probably, never play as any of them, I've always been more interested in custom characters. Having your own story rather than follow someone else's. I don't mind playing games following a character and their story, ST Fallen Order or Deus Ex for example, but for rpgs I prefer my own character. That said this is one of those requests that will never happen.
Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 05:28 AM
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Seriously. Scrap gnomes, does anyone actually play them? Instead of gnomes concentrate on something players ACTUALLY like: elf subraces.


Finally, we get an unequivocally RIGHT suggestion. This deserves a consulting fee paid by Larian, that's how fundamentally correct it is. Some unfortunate people will say, "but I like playing gnomes", but this is, sadly, just Stockholm Syndrome brought about by those irresponsible creators who have been violently foisting gnome-related content upon us all for so long. Rise up! Cast off the chains of the gnomocracy! We shall be free!


As to the topic, I think the origins are a good thing. I may or may not play one, but I know that lots of other people WILL play one. Maybe not many of the Very Small Group of players that post on forums, that specific niche group of hardcore RPGers who care more than is healthy about the minutiae of RPG design, will use this feature. But definitely plenty of the Very Large Group of general/casual gamers who make up the bulk of the customer base (and never read or post on forums or subreddits for the game) will.

But I've noticed that most people around here tend to forget that the Very Large Group exists, or perhaps they just don't matter? Despite the fact that it's their money which mostly funds the existence of these games. Even if 9 out of 10 people here agree on something, that's still peanuts compared to the whole audience of the game. And what WE want, we weirdos, we D&D nerds, we crazy obsessives, we highly opinionated niche fans, is not necessarily (and is often the opposite of) what the Very Large Group enjoys. For every one person here who hates barrelmancy, there are 100+ people who think that shit is hilarious, fun, and/or awesome.

Even when making their own character, a large percentage of general/casual gamers out there don't even customize things like skills, stats, or spell selections. They just take the defaults. They just pick a race and class, set up their appearance, and call it a day. They don't know what that other stuff means, or does, and they don't really care. They just want to get in and play. The preponderance of Tavs show that a lot of people don't even care to NAME their character.
Posted By: Maldurin Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 08:56 AM
Im a big fan of origin characters abd i love to have the option to experience a kind of new adventure when playing as one.
If i remember right, Larian is going to add a Mercenaries system like in DOS2 anyway for those who dont?
Posted By: EMC_V Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 11:07 AM
Originally Posted by Maerd
Origin characters are interesting, generally better written, and fun to play. Therefore, I suggest we just scrap OP's opinion instead.


The reason origin characters are "generally better written" is that they put more effort in them. I think that the OP thinks that the work on origin characters is not finished and that if they keep prioritizing them, custom characters would be indeed worse written. Which won't be a problem if they have said so from the begining. That way, we would have known what to expect.

Now, this is EA and things aren't set in stone. They have time to put work on custom characters and level them to the same standard they want for the origins. And that might mean 5 origins instead of 10 (numbers aren't real. I've heard they would be 8
and that one of them would be Minsc
). The thing is, the OP said somethings that could be implemented for custom characters. Like using story/background labels to round up custom characters.

Zellin offered a few nice suggestions to improve custom characters. There's plenty they can do to improve them. But since resources are limited, if they only focus con Origin characters and on selling us that, well, we would get origin characters and for those who don't like to play as origins but were told that we won't have subpar experience by playing custom characters it would be disappointing. And considering that they specifically said that it won't be like DOS2 and that custom characters would be as good as origins gamewise, I would say that there is a significant amount of consumers that simply don't like origins. Otherwise they would simply promote origin characters set in stone and won't even allow custom characters. Money from the people who doesn't like origins also finance the game. Yet, significant less resources are dedicated to custom characters. Or so it seems at this point.

And no, having Minsc as one of the origins doesn't make it baldur's gate.
They could have just used the "forgotten realms" brand if it wasn't to be a BG successor and they wanted a DoS3 instead but in the forgotten realms. They would have sold anyway and no one would have got false expectations.
Posted By: Dexai Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Seriously. Scrap gnomes, does anyone actually play them? Instead of gnomes concentrate on something players ACTUALLY like: elf subraces.


Finally, we get an unequivocally RIGHT suggestion. This deserves a consulting fee paid by Larian, that's how fundamentally correct it is. Some unfortunate people will say, "but I like playing gnomes", but this is, sadly, just Stockholm Syndrome brought about by those irresponsible creators who have been violently foisting gnome-related content upon us all for so long. Rise up! Cast off the chains of the gnomocracy! We shall be free!


As to the topic, I think the origins are a good thing. I may or may not play one, but I know that lots of other people WILL play one. Maybe not many of the Very Small Group of players that post on forums, that specific niche group of hardcore RPGers who care more than is healthy about the minutiae of RPG design, will use this feature. But definitely plenty of the Very Large Group of general/casual gamers who make up the bulk of the customer base (and never read or post on forums or subreddits for the game) will.

But I've noticed that most people around here tend to forget that the Very Large Group exists, or perhaps they just don't matter? Despite the fact that it's their money which mostly funds the existence of these games. Even if 9 out of 10 people here agree on something, that's still peanuts compared to the whole audience of the game. And what WE want, we weirdos, we D&D nerds, we crazy obsessives, we highly opinionated niche fans, is not necessarily (and is often the opposite of) what the Very Large Group enjoys. For every one person here who hates barrelmancy, there are 100+ people who think that shit is hilarious, fun, and/or awesome.

Even when making their own character, a large percentage of general/casual gamers out there don't even customize things like skills, stats, or spell selections. They just take the defaults. They just pick a race and class, set up their appearance, and call it a day. They don't know what that other stuff means, or does, and they don't really care. They just want to get in and play.


Maybe don't demand that people speak for everybody else's opinion rather than their own. People can only give their own feedback.


Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
The preponderance of Tavs show that a lot of people don't even care to NAME their character.


I would hazard a guess that more than anything else this speaks of the awkward positioning of the name field in the UI.
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 01:27 PM
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Seriously. Scrap gnomes, does anyone actually play them? Instead of gnomes concentrate on something players ACTUALLY like: elf subraces.

Yep, I like and play gnomes. The cleric/illusionist in BG was my favourite (despite the fact that the devs made them look like Gorion's grandpa).

My current plan for BG3 is a gnomish sorceress (or illusionist wizard maybe), named Josephine Jansen.
Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Seriously. Scrap gnomes, does anyone actually play them? Instead of gnomes concentrate on something players ACTUALLY like: elf subraces.


Finally, we get an unequivocally RIGHT suggestion. This deserves a consulting fee paid by Larian, that's how fundamentally correct it is. Some unfortunate people will say, "but I like playing gnomes", but this is, sadly, just Stockholm Syndrome brought about by those irresponsible creators who have been violently foisting gnome-related content upon us all for so long. Rise up! Cast off the chains of the gnomocracy! We shall be free!


As to the topic, I think the origins are a good thing. I may or may not play one, but I know that lots of other people WILL play one. Maybe not many of the Very Small Group of players that post on forums, that specific niche group of hardcore RPGers who care more than is healthy about the minutiae of RPG design, will use this feature. But definitely plenty of the Very Large Group of general/casual gamers who make up the bulk of the customer base (and never read or post on forums or subreddits for the game) will.

But I've noticed that most people around here tend to forget that the Very Large Group exists, or perhaps they just don't matter? Despite the fact that it's their money which mostly funds the existence of these games. Even if 9 out of 10 people here agree on something, that's still peanuts compared to the whole audience of the game. And what WE want, we weirdos, we D&D nerds, we crazy obsessives, we highly opinionated niche fans, is not necessarily (and is often the opposite of) what the Very Large Group enjoys. For every one person here who hates barrelmancy, there are 100+ people who think that shit is hilarious, fun, and/or awesome.

Even when making their own character, a large percentage of general/casual gamers out there don't even customize things like skills, stats, or spell selections. They just take the defaults. They just pick a race and class, set up their appearance, and call it a day. They don't know what that other stuff means, or does, and they don't really care. They just want to get in and play.


Maybe don't demand that people speak for everybody else's opinion rather than their own. People can only give their own feedback.


Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
The preponderance of Tavs show that a lot of people don't even care to NAME their character.


I would hazard a guess that more than anything else this speaks of the awkward positioning of the name field in the UI.



Really coming after me today, eh Dexai? That's fine, I know that I have a tendency to rile people up with some of my posts.

If you could just show me where in my post I demanded something, that would be great. I can't find it.

And of course people should give their own feedback, and express their personal desires for the game. I mean, that's what this place is for, right? As I've said about 500 other times on various threads, it's not the opinion I object to, it's the manner of argument about it.

If someone says, "Hey I think the game would be a lot more fun if they get rid of origin characters!" I'm not going to argue with that. I mean, I might express my own, contrary, opinion, but I'm not going to try to take their post apart like I sometimes do.

Mostly I get a bee in my bonnet over hyperbole and statements of This Is Absolutely So about things which are, fundamentally, matters of opinion. I try to remind people that there is, in fact, more than one way to think about these topics. So when people say things like "this is a USELESS feature" or "this is a WASTE of developers' time" or "this doesn't matter at all" or "there's NO reason to add that" or "romances add NOTHING to the game" or "this isn't D&D at all" or "this is just Divinity 3" or "this has NOTHING to do with Baldur's Gate" or the like, I think, "Huh, that's pretty absolutist. This person thinks that their personal perspective and/or desire on this matter is the One True Way. They are, through their very hyperbolic phrasing, essentially declaring that everyone who thinks otherwise either doesn't exist, or doesn't matter. I don't like that."

Basically, not everything is for you. (By you, I mean, myself and everyone else here.) Some things are for other people, and some of those other people aren't even speaking up about it. Something which is for other people is not useless, it's just not for you.


Oh, but I think you're right about the name thing.

Posted By: guy Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Originally Posted by EMC_V

And it is selfish to expect people who don't like origins to just put up with a subpar plot and less options.

The op is advocating for removing already existing content in one area because they feel that content in another related area is sub-par in comparison. it feels petty and punitive. I am saying keep that content, do not remove it. I find it hard to see what is selfish about not wanting roleplaying things removed from the game that already exist and money has already been spent on. This is not a zero sum thing: removing origins will not magically make custom "better", though for some reason people seem to think that is how it would work. As verte says, don't remove the origins, bring the custom up to standard and use the level of detail put into the origins as a benchmark which you can then point to and say: we want this level of effort for custom pcs too.


Actually. I can +1 this

You are right about the time and money they put into origins. I get it.

It is my strong feeling that the vast majority of BG3 players are players from the original BG series, from the neverwinter series (and WOW, that games went STRONG for a LONG time because of all the online and mod support!) and the icewind dale series.
The biggest point for that is... that generation is more than 20 years old at this point.

Then the other, newer, smaller percent, I feel, is from the divinity or dragon age or witcher crowd.... which is actually at least 2 generations removed.

I have dealt with this with final fanasty 6 and final fanasty 7. FF6 is, hands down the best one ever made. But most players can not get past the 32 bit graphic design and won't play the game. While FF& is good, FF6, in my opinion, is better, and newer players simply will not experience because they won't play it for the graphics.

Maybe most will hate this idea, but put origins on the back burner, and sell it as DLC - not as one of the main features of the game.

However, the core assestment of bring the custo up to standards is completely 100% on point - if the custom content is on par, then I have nothing to say about origins.
Posted By: Dheuster Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 01:45 PM
Some Numbers.

Divinity Original Sin (Did not have origin stories):
14,480 votes. Summary: Very Positive

Divinity Original Sin 2 (Had origin stories):
94,503 votes. Summary: Overwhelmingly Positive

The trend seems to indicate people like origin stories just fine. As for the alt start suggestion (basically Dragon Age Origins), I like it, but they have a budget friendly intro scenario that works for almost any origin story. Imagine the future when modders add new classes, races, etc.. to the game (like right now you can download barbarian and sorceror classes). That is mostly possible because of the streamlined scenario they have. If every new class/race, etc... needed its own starting chapter, that would greatly limit the ability to realistically expand the content with mods. Sorry, but I prefer a mod-friendly game over one with unique origin stories.
Posted By: guy Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 01:48 PM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Seriously. Scrap gnomes, does anyone actually play them? Instead of gnomes concentrate on something players ACTUALLY like: elf subraces.


Finally, we get an unequivocally RIGHT suggestion. This deserves a consulting fee paid by Larian, that's how fundamentally correct it is. Some unfortunate people will say, "but I like playing gnomes", but this is, sadly, just Stockholm Syndrome brought about by those irresponsible creators who have been violently foisting gnome-related content upon us all for so long. Rise up! Cast off the chains of the gnomocracy! We shall be free!


As to the topic, I think the origins are a good thing. I may or may not play one, but I know that lots of other people WILL play one. Maybe not many of the Very Small Group of players that post on forums, that specific niche group of hardcore RPGers who care more than is healthy about the minutiae of RPG design, will use this feature. But definitely plenty of the Very Large Group of general/casual gamers who make up the bulk of the customer base (and never read or post on forums or subreddits for the game) will.

But I've noticed that most people around here tend to forget that the Very Large Group exists, or perhaps they just don't matter? Despite the fact that it's their money which mostly funds the existence of these games. Even if 9 out of 10 people here agree on something, that's still peanuts compared to the whole audience of the game. And what WE want, we weirdos, we D&D nerds, we crazy obsessives, we highly opinionated niche fans, is not necessarily (and is often the opposite of) what the Very Large Group enjoys. For every one person here who hates barrelmancy, there are 100+ people who think that shit is hilarious, fun, and/or awesome.

Even when making their own character, a large percentage of general/casual gamers out there don't even customize things like skills, stats, or spell selections. They just take the defaults. They just pick a race and class, set up their appearance, and call it a day. They don't know what that other stuff means, or does, and they don't really care. They just want to get in and play. The preponderance of Tavs show that a lot of people don't even care to NAME their character.



Larian has % stats for people that skipped the gob ambush.
Is there any way we can get LArian to show % stats for this too?

I custom EVERY char.

EVERY point matters.

Especially stats like con and str.

Dex give or take, will/int/cha less so... unless you are a wizard, then every point matters int. and they determine saving DCs, so then they do matter, but situationally.
Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by Dheuster
Some Numbers.

Divinity Original Sin (Did not have origin stories):
14,480 votes. Summary: Very Positive

Divinity Original Sin 2 (Had origin stories):
94,503 votes. Summary: Overwhelmingly Positive

The trend seems to indicate people like origin stories just fine. As for the alt start suggestion (basically Dragon Age Origins), I like it, but they have a budget friendly intro scenario that works for almost any origin story. Imagine the future when modders add new classes, races, etc.. to the game (like right now you can download barbarian and sorceror classes). That is mostly possible because of the streamlined scenario they have. If every new class/race, etc... needed its own starting chapter, that would greatly limit the ability to realistically expand the content with mods. Sorry, but I prefer a mod-friendly game over one with unique origin stories.



The Witcher 3.

410,042 votes. Summary: Overwhelmingly Positive.


And that only has ONE origin character to choose from!
Posted By: guy Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by Maldurin
Im a big fan of origin characters abd i love to have the option to experience a kind of new adventure when playing as one.
If i remember right, Larian is going to add a Mercenaries system like in DOS2 anyway for those who dont?



I hope they do not add a mercenary system...

I will talk about DDO here, dungeons and dragons online.

They have a mercenary system for players that do not play in a group of people.

Dry. Bland. BLah.

Jsut make non -origin companions and flesh them out
Posted By: guy Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 01:51 PM
Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Seriously. Scrap gnomes, does anyone actually play them? Instead of gnomes concentrate on something players ACTUALLY like: elf subraces.


Finally, we get an unequivocally RIGHT suggestion. This deserves a consulting fee paid by Larian, that's how fundamentally correct it is. Some unfortunate people will say, "but I like playing gnomes", but this is, sadly, just Stockholm Syndrome brought about by those irresponsible creators who have been violently foisting gnome-related content upon us all for so long. Rise up! Cast off the chains of the gnomocracy! We shall be free!


As to the topic, I think the origins are a good thing. I may or may not play one, but I know that lots of other people WILL play one. Maybe not many of the Very Small Group of players that post on forums, that specific niche group of hardcore RPGers who care more than is healthy about the minutiae of RPG design, will use this feature. But definitely plenty of the Very Large Group of general/casual gamers who make up the bulk of the customer base (and never read or post on forums or subreddits for the game) will.

But I've noticed that most people around here tend to forget that the Very Large Group exists, or perhaps they just don't matter? Despite the fact that it's their money which mostly funds the existence of these games. Even if 9 out of 10 people here agree on something, that's still peanuts compared to the whole audience of the game. And what WE want, we weirdos, we D&D nerds, we crazy obsessives, we highly opinionated niche fans, is not necessarily (and is often the opposite of) what the Very Large Group enjoys. For every one person here who hates barrelmancy, there are 100+ people who think that shit is hilarious, fun, and/or awesome.

Even when making their own character, a large percentage of general/casual gamers out there don't even customize things like skills, stats, or spell selections. They just take the defaults. They just pick a race and class, set up their appearance, and call it a day. They don't know what that other stuff means, or does, and they don't really care. They just want to get in and play.


Maybe don't demand that people speak for everybody else's opinion rather than their own. People can only give their own feedback.


Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
The preponderance of Tavs show that a lot of people don't even care to NAME their character.


I would hazard a guess that more than anything else this speaks of the awkward positioning of the name field in the UI.


Actually, yes, good point.

My first three characters were all TAV, and I couldn't figure it out right away.
Posted By: Verte Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by guy

Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
The preponderance of Tavs show that a lot of people don't even care to NAME their character.


Originally Posted by Dexai
I would hazard a guess that more than anything else this speaks of the awkward positioning of the name field in the UI.


Actually, yes, good point.

My first three characters were all TAV, and I couldn't figure it out right away.


I have found it but also spend like half of the hour (at least) in the creator going back and forth. Easy to miss if someone doesn't like to spend too much time there.
Posted By: guy Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by Dheuster
Some Numbers.

Divinity Original Sin (Did not have origin stories):
14,480 votes. Summary: Very Positive

Divinity Original Sin 2 (Had origin stories):
94,503 votes. Summary: Overwhelmingly Positive

The trend seems to indicate people like origin stories just fine. As for the alt start suggestion (basically Dragon Age Origins), I like it, but they have a budget friendly intro scenario that works for almost any origin story. Imagine the future when modders add new classes, races, etc.. to the game (like right now you can download barbarian and sorceror classes). That is mostly possible because of the streamlined scenario they have. If every new class/race, etc... needed its own starting chapter, that would greatly limit the ability to realistically expand the content with mods. Sorry, but I prefer a mod-friendly game over one with unique origin stories.


What other gameplay changed between DOS and DOS2?
The youtube streaming community maybe?
There is more coverage for DOS2 than DOS.

I would not chalk it up to one specific feature.

And that worked for THAT GAME.
This is NOT that game, and it
Now, look at this. Bare in mind this game is over 20 years old at this point, and this I linked is basically DLC, AND BG has LESS advertising through streaming that DOS does.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/228280/Baldurs_Gate_Enhanced_Edition/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/257350/Baldurs_Gate_II_Enhanced_Edition/

The point is this. Why did Larian choose BG?
They liked it? maybe.

Because the numbers show there is a viable market? YES.

It seems to me LARIAN WANTS the BG crowd. This open feedback EA? The BG crowd eats it up.

Origins are not for the BG crowd, they are for the other Larian game crowd.

Again, my thought? scrap it, or sell it as DLC. IF they can get the non origin stuff up to snuff, then my opinion on it changes to neutral.

Larian will make the choice they will make, I am simply giving feedback to the EA
Posted By: guy Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Dheuster
Some Numbers.

Divinity Original Sin (Did not have origin stories):
14,480 votes. Summary: Very Positive

Divinity Original Sin 2 (Had origin stories):
94,503 votes. Summary: Overwhelmingly Positive

The trend seems to indicate people like origin stories just fine. As for the alt start suggestion (basically Dragon Age Origins), I like it, but they have a budget friendly intro scenario that works for almost any origin story. Imagine the future when modders add new classes, races, etc.. to the game (like right now you can download barbarian and sorceror classes). That is mostly possible because of the streamlined scenario they have. If every new class/race, etc... needed its own starting chapter, that would greatly limit the ability to realistically expand the content with mods. Sorry, but I prefer a mod-friendly game over one with unique origin stories.



The Witcher 3.

410,042 votes. Summary: Overwhelmingly Positive.


And that only has ONE origin character to choose from!


The witcher has strong advertising.

IS the community vote from origins, or is it from advertising?

How much customization is there for witcher?

Will witcher have a life span like diablo, where it is a fad for 5 years, where it is top of the line graphics, engine, and innovation, until people realize it could have been done much better and move on, and get bored of the same grind over and over?

There are more factors besides one specific feature.

Point being. Witcher is a different game and a different crowd.
RPGS like BG are already a VERY small crowd.

And Origins in a game where you only get the one main char?
In that context, yes, it is fantastic!

So yes, that is a lovely orange you have, but right now, I am concerned about the apples.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by guy
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Dheuster
Some Numbers.

Divinity Original Sin (Did not have origin stories):
14,480 votes. Summary: Very Positive

Divinity Original Sin 2 (Had origin stories):
94,503 votes. Summary: Overwhelmingly Positive

The trend seems to indicate people like origin stories just fine. As for the alt start suggestion (basically Dragon Age Origins), I like it, but they have a budget friendly intro scenario that works for almost any origin story. Imagine the future when modders add new classes, races, etc.. to the game (like right now you can download barbarian and sorceror classes). That is mostly possible because of the streamlined scenario they have. If every new class/race, etc... needed its own starting chapter, that would greatly limit the ability to realistically expand the content with mods. Sorry, but I prefer a mod-friendly game over one with unique origin stories.



The Witcher 3.

410,042 votes. Summary: Overwhelmingly Positive.


And that only has ONE origin character to choose from!


The witcher has strong advertising.

IS the community vote from origins, or is it from advertising?

How much customization is there for witcher?

Will witcher have a life span like diablo, where it is a fad for 5 years, where it is top of the line graphics, engine, and innovation, until people realize it could have been done much better and move on, and get bored of the same grind over and over?

There are more factors besides one specific feature.

Point being. Witcher is a different game and a different crowd.
RPGS like BG are already a VERY small crowd.

And Origins in a game where you only get the one main char?
In that context, yes, it is fantastic!

So yes, that is a lovely orange you have, but right now, I am concerned about the apples.


I'm pretty sure Firesnakearies' point was to mock Dheuster's misuse of statistics. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)
Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 02:28 PM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester


I'm pretty sure Firesnakearies' point was to mock Dheuster's misuse of statistics. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)



Actually, no, I was agreeing with Dheuster.
Posted By: gaymer Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 02:36 PM
Personally, after many hours in DOS2 with Larian, there is absolutely NO WAY anyone can say the custom character experience is equivalent to Origin. You got some much more interaction with Origin in DOS2: hidden storylines, extra quests, extra battles, extra dialogue options, extra items even.

There is so much you missed out on by playing a custom character. I played through as custom first before doing Origin and it was almost like a new game with the extra content.

It already appears this is the same in BG3 with the extra dialogue and banter between the Origin and you can tell a lot of the items and triggers on the map are intended for those characters for their stories to be fuller. If you play a custom experience, you don't get that at all just like DOS2.

Larian can't try to say that you will get the exact same experience because you just won't, especially when the Origin characters have unique storylines tied to NPCs and other things that you will meet even later in the game.

If I don't have Wyll in my party, what is my interaction with his patron going to be?
Posted By: guy Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 02:47 PM
Now, I will type this.

If they have Halsin as non companion, The tiefling comander, Mynthara....

If they make those characters in to origins?

YES, that would be very interesting.

And if you played those origins, and they changed your ore game play experience?

GObs stronger/ weaker, druids more open/ less open, tieflings more aggressive/less agressive...

Then, in that specific scenerio, yes, origins are good.

As it looks to be going?

My vote is no.
Posted By: EMC_V Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 02:48 PM
The votes on steam measure not just origins. The difference might be because graphycs or UI. Also, you might want to add other similar games like kingmaker, pillars of eternity, etc.

Origins aren't really a new concept. In the BG versión for console, you have a selección of characters that included Dritzz if you unlocked. It was an arcade more than RPG, but you did have origins. This is similar.

But what happen to the people that didn't liked any of those options? They had to settle. And since you didn't have that much choice, you picked the one that you disliked the least.

But now is different. There are plenty of games and people who don't like origins can simply buy another game. The conflict here is about expectations. Some people like me want a new BG, where you create your character and that character is at the centre of the story. Other want a DoS3, even if it wasn't marketed as such. And since they like origins, they expect the people who doesn't to settle and either pick the origin that they dispone the least or play a custom character that is an expectator to the origins. Or just not play, after all, they already paid snd helped to finance origins.

Well, if Larian knew from the begining that custom characters were going to be secondary, they should have said it from the begining, not claim the opposite to deceive the people who enjoy playing their own characters.

Or they can look for synergies and use what they have to make custom characters work. In that regard, some of the OP suggestions could be considered. Not the part to "scratch" origina, but the part about allowing the use of those stories to be used by the custom characters ofrecen shared. While Gale story won't quite work as shared, Astarion would. After all, if MC and character are both vampire spawns created by Cazador, that might create interesting dynamics. Specially if Astarion seduced the MC to bring MC to Cazador and is responsible for their turn. They might be alise, competotors, rivals or enemies forced into a truce. Because they both need to get rid of Cazador. Yet, it would make sense to not trust the other. So, basically, ir would be nice if Larian considered that MC is as rounded and interesting as Origins. Or it is if you arexwilling to put the work.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
I'm pretty sure Firesnakearies' point was to mock Dheuster's misuse of statistics. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)


Actually, no, I was agreeing with Dheuster.


Apologies then.

In that case I'll have to disagree with both of you and agree with EMC_V. These statistics are completely useless and the quoted numbers a textbook example of misuse/abuse of statistics. There's so many variables between those games that taking conclusions about popularity of certain features from those numbers is... pretty much worthless. By this logic you could argue combat in TW3 is better than combat in Dark Souls, since the former has better numbers.
Posted By: guy Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
I'm pretty sure Firesnakearies' point was to mock Dheuster's misuse of statistics. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)


Actually, no, I was agreeing with Dheuster.


Apologies then.

In that case I'll have to disagree with both of you and agree with EMC_V. These statistics are completely useless and the quoted numbers a textbook example of misuse/abuse of statistics. There's so many variables between those games that taking conclusions about popularity of certain features from those numbers is... pretty much worthless. By this logic you could argue combat in TW3 is better than combat in Dark Souls, since the former has better numbers.


Dark souls as good combat imo. But it is hard af
Posted By: Dexai Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Really coming after me today, eh Dexai? That's fine, I know that I have a tendency to rile people up with some of my posts.


You have to forgive me, I didn't realise there was a limit to how many times you can be responded to per day. If you don't want people to communicate with you, maybe not be so quick to post everywhere? I simply want to share my opinion. I think that's the same wish that drives you to post in every thread.


Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
If you could just show me where in my post I demanded something, that would be great. I can't find it.


As far as I can see the entire point of your post is that since other opinions exist (and happen to align with yours), theirs (the person you are arguing with) doesn't matter. They should give feedback that puts the nebulous other people's opinions above their own.


Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
If someone says, "Hey I think the game would be a lot more fun if they get rid of origin characters!" I'm not going to argue with that. I mean, I might express my own, contrary, opinion, but I'm not going to try to take their post apart like I sometimes do.

Mostly I get a bee in my bonnet over hyperbole and statements of This Is Absolutely So about things which are, fundamentally, matters of opinion.


You talk like that yourself all the time, and then you quip and make fun of people to add to it. I don't really think you're in position to admonish others on that.


Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Basically, not everything is for you. (By you, I mean, myself and everyone else here.) Some things are for other people, and some of those other people aren't even speaking up about it. Something which is for other people is not useless, it's just not for you.


This is literally the feedback and suggestions forum for an EA game. It is the point of this forum to make suggestions that you think will improve the game. Not all those suggestions are going to be suggestions you like. Not all those suggestions are going to be suggestions the nebulous other people like. It's just going to be the feedback of the people who give it. You can only respond to it with your opinion. Appealing to the silent majority is a intellectual fallacy. Telling people who give feedback that there are other opinions is a "well duh" statement. Of course there are other opinions. Larian themselves are of an other opinion to OP in this thread. That's why he made the thread, on the suggestion forum, to suggest that they change their opinion.

Lastly, I'm glad that you agree about the names. I've had to restart playthroughs myself because I've missed changing the name, and I'm a person who cares a lot about names. In my opinion the naming UI should be the very last thing that pops up before or right after you click the "finish character"/"start game" button.
Posted By: EMC_V Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 04:05 PM
What I would like to know are the split among origins in DoS2, replays and finish games. I mean, the people who played as custom in DoS2 is probably a hardcore custom character. While people who played all the origins with no changes are probably the hardcore origins with most people probably in the middle. That won't account for the people who would simply choose other game because they favored custom characters (or other reason), but would start yo paint a picture.

Also, it would be nice to have a pool were people could vote which character they would play. It should allow for custom being an option. It should also allow for people to mark more than one but ponderate results by assingning more points to the choices by people who only mark one. That way, if someone only play Laezel (or custom) all the points would be assign to that. If other mark 3, the points would be divided among the 3. And ifvyou mark all of them, it would he even.

I suspect that some origins would barely played. Specially the ones that people plan to romance. While other origins would be more popular.
Posted By: Dheuster Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 04:11 PM
So I agree that some comparisons are not apples to apples. But you aren't going to find a better game to compare BG3 against than DOS1/2. DOS2 in particular. You certainly can't compare it to BG 1/2. I mean the fact that BG3 is turn based... Might as well be comparing with Skyrim. (DOS 2 has a better ranking than Skyrim BTW).

As for advertising, etc... The steam user satisfaction rankings are based on percentages. So if DOS1 only had 1000 buy it and 500 ranked and DOS 2 had 100,000 buy it and 50,000 ranked... it just mean better precision, but it doesn't change the rank. Bottom line, those who played DOS 1 liked it less than those who played DOS 2.

I played both DOS 1 and DOS 2 and I can tell you that they were very similar games. They were both set in the same universe with the same lore and gods. Same basic movement and combat mechanic (that feel almost identical to BG3). IE: Chaining party members, barrelmancy, max party size of 4, Feats every 4 levels,etc... ). The primary difference was... the origin stories in DOS 2.

And the similarities between BG3 and DOS 2 don't end with origin stories or level up mechanics. In DOS 2, you started off as a prisoner on a ship heading to an island-prison. On the ship you meet your future companion options and then the ship is attacked, sinks and you somehow magically survive what should have been certain death... Only to find out later you survived because of divine intervention and that the gods have a plan for you.

Sound familiar?

End of Chapter 1 in DOS... you leave by boarding a boat with you current party of 4. Those that are not in the boat/party at that time are left behind.

Sound familiar?

Larian is taking the template of DOS 2 and applying a D&D Forgotten Realms theme to it. And I don't blame them. DOS 2 was much more successful than DOS. Whether origins were the reason or not, bottom line it was there most successful game. Origins has become their hallmark feature.

So BG3 is targetting 3 groups and trying to strike a balance that keep all happy: Larian Fans, D&D Fans and BG Fans.

They are not going to scrap their hallmark origins feature and alienate their Larian fans any more than they are going to scrap turn based combat and alienate their 5E PnP fans. Maybe a better question is what does this game have to do with Baldur's Gate at the moment?


You find a pamphlet in the Zhent hideout office that talks about a statue of a ranger holding a hamster in some market square that needs to be cleaned. So you will likely get to rescue Minsc, but that is the only connection I have really heard of


But I digress... Bottom line is : -1 to the idea of scrapping Origins. And I will leave it at that.
Posted By: vometia Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Basically, not everything is for you. (By you, I mean, myself and everyone else here.) Some things are for other people, and some of those other people aren't even speaking up about it. Something which is for other people is not useless, it's just not for you.


This is literally the feedback and suggestions forum for an EA game. It is the point of this forum to make suggestions that you think will improve the game. Not all those suggestions are going to be suggestions you like. Not all those suggestions are going to be suggestions the nebulous other people like. It's just going to be the feedback of the people who give it. You can only respond to it with your opinion. Appealing to the silent majority is a intellectual fallacy. Telling people who give feedback that there are other opinions is a "well duh" statement. Of course there are other opinions. Larian themselves are of an other opinion to OP in this thread. That's why he made the thread, on the suggestion forum, to suggest that they change their opinion.

Isn't this a sort of... I dunno. Sequitur, maybe.

Er anyway. BG3 doesn't have lobsters*. I am disappoint.

* talky ones. I want lobsters that are chatty. Not radlobsters like Fallout. They killed me and stuff and generally sucked.
Posted By: Drath Malorn Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
In that case I'll have to disagree with both of you and agree with EMC_V. These statistics are completely useless and the quoted numbers a textbook example of misuse/abuse of statistics. There's so many variables between those games that taking conclusions about popularity of certain features from those numbers is... pretty much worthless. By this logic you could argue combat in TW3 is better than combat in Dark Souls, since the former has better numbers.


Yes. I know this is not the OP's topic, so I'll stop there. But I have difficulty with the idea of letting bad science fly uncontested.
Posted By: guy Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by Dheuster
So I agree that some comparisons are not apples to apples. But you aren't going to find a better game to compare BG3 against than DOS1/2. DOS2 in particular. You certainly can't compare it to BG 1/2. I mean the fact that BG3 is turn based... Might as well be comparing with Skyrim. (DOS 2 has a better ranking than Skyrim BTW).

As for advertising, etc... The steam user satisfaction rankings are based on percentages. So if DOS1 only had 1000 buy it and 500 ranked and DOS 2 had 100,000 buy it and 50,000 ranked... it just mean better precision, but it doesn't change the rank. Bottom line, those who played DOS 1 liked it less than those who played DOS 2.

I played both DOS 1 and DOS 2 and I can tell you that they were very similar games. They were both set in the same universe with the same lore and gods. Same basic movement and combat mechanic (that feel almost identical to BG3). IE: Chaining party members, barrelmancy, max party size of 4, Feats every 4 levels,etc... ). The primary difference was... the origin stories in DOS 2.

And the similarities between BG3 and DOS 2 don't end with origin stories or level up mechanics. In DOS 2, you started off as a prisoner on a ship heading to an island-prison. On the ship you meet your future companion options and then the ship is attacked, sinks and you somehow magically survive what should have been certain death... Only to find out later you survived because of divine intervention and that the gods have a plan for you.

Sound familiar?

End of Chapter 1 in DOS... you leave by boarding a boat with you current party of 4. Those that are not in the boat/party at that time are left behind.

Sound familiar?

Larian is taking the template of DOS 2 and applying a D&D Forgotten Realms theme to it. And I don't blame them. DOS 2 was much more successful than DOS. Whether origins were the reason or not, bottom line it was there most successful game. Origins has become their hallmark feature.

So BG3 is targetting 3 groups and trying to strike a balance that keep all happy: Larian Fans, D&D Fans and BG Fans.

They are not going to scrap their hallmark origins feature and alienate their Larian fans any more than they are going to scrap turn based combat and alienate their 5E PnP fans. Maybe a better question is what does this game have to do with Baldur's Gate at the moment?


You find a pamphlet in the Zhent hideout office that talks about a statue of a ranger holding a hamster in some market square that needs to be cleaned. So you will likely get to rescue Minsc, but that is the only connection I have really heard of


But I digress... Bottom line is : -1 to the idea of scrapping Origins. And I will leave it at that.



your opinion on origins is valid and accepted.

To the first part of post.

As you said, you think it is better to compare it to DOS than BG 1 or 2.

That, specifically, is a problem for me. I am here to play BG, not DOS.
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by guy
As you said, you think it is better to compare it to DOS than BG 1 or 2.

That, specifically, is a problem for me. I am here to play BG, not DOS.


Was about to say that. This is a huge problem. The game appears as if it was D:OS that tries to be DA. Set in Faerun and with 5e rules. And titled BG3 for some reason. Location and some story links aren't enough.
Posted By: Dexai Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Basically, not everything is for you. (By you, I mean, myself and everyone else here.) Some things are for other people, and some of those other people aren't even speaking up about it. Something which is for other people is not useless, it's just not for you.


This is literally the feedback and suggestions forum for an EA game. It is the point of this forum to make suggestions that you think will improve the game. Not all those suggestions are going to be suggestions you like. Not all those suggestions are going to be suggestions the nebulous other people like. It's just going to be the feedback of the people who give it. You can only respond to it with your opinion. Appealing to the silent majority is a intellectual fallacy. Telling people who give feedback that there are other opinions is a "well duh" statement. Of course there are other opinions. Larian themselves are of an other opinion to OP in this thread. That's why he made the thread, on the suggestion forum, to suggest that they change their opinion.

Isn't this a sort of... I dunno. Sequitur, maybe.


Not by intetion! How do you mean?
Posted By: DistantStranger Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by guy
As you said, you think it is better to compare it to DOS than BG 1 or 2.

That, specifically, is a problem for me. I am here to play BG, not DOS.


Was about to say that. This is a huge problem. The game appears as if it was D:OS that tries to be DA. Set in Faerun and with 5e rules. And titled BG3 for some reason. Location and some story links aren't enough.


+1




Also, for everyone making the ridiculous argument that origin characters are some sort of Larian signature feature. . .They existed in exactly one title from a studio of six games, and while I acknowledge they are of potential value and some small utility, they are not necessarily so in this application. It may be unique to them, or may not I really don't know, but its hardly a trend let alone a staple of their production
Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by Dexai


You have to forgive me, I didn't realise there was a limit to how many times you can be responded to per day. If you don't want people to communicate with you, maybe not be so quick to post everywhere? I simply want to share my opinion. I think that's the same wish that drives you to post in every thread.


As far as I can see the entire point of your post is that since other opinions exist (and happen to align with yours), theirs (the person you are arguing with) doesn't matter. They should give feedback that puts the nebulous other people's opinions above their own.


You talk like that yourself all the time, and then you quip and make fun of people to add to it. I don't really think you're in position to admonish others on that.


Lastly, I'm glad that you agree about the names. I've had to restart playthroughs myself because I've missed changing the name, and I'm a person who cares a lot about names. In my opinion the naming UI should be the very last thing that pops up before or right after you click the "finish character"/"start game" button.



No limit, friend. Feel free to go through my entire post history and disagree with every one of them. If you'd like, I can send you a PM every time I make a new post, so that you will never miss an opportunity to respond to me. I'm helpful like that.


That wasn't the point of my post at all, but you're free to interpret things however you like.


I might talk like that sometimes, I really don't know. Generally, if I do it's in a comedic sense, and I try to make that fairly obvious, but tone can be hard to read on the Internet. And I might occasionally do it non-comedically as well. I can't remember doing it, but I won't deny the possibility.


Yeah, they need to put the name thing at the end, for sure. Seems like kind of a no-brainer, most other games do it like that.
Posted By: DistantStranger Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 06:26 PM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

If you'd like, I can send you a PM every time I make a new post


Is this an open offer, or an achievement one unlocks through sufficient harassment?

Asking for a friend.
Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by DistantStranger
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by guy
As you said, you think it is better to compare it to DOS than BG 1 or 2.

That, specifically, is a problem for me. I am here to play BG, not DOS.


Was about to say that. This is a huge problem. The game appears as if it was D:OS that tries to be DA. Set in Faerun and with 5e rules. And titled BG3 for some reason. Location and some story links aren't enough.


+1




Also, for everyone making the ridiculous argument that origin characters are some sort of Larian signature feature. . .They existed in exactly one title from a studio of six games, and while I acknowledge they are of potential value and some small utility, they are not necessarily so in this application. It may be unique to them, or may not I really don't know, but its hardly a trend let alone a staple of their production



-1

The game is plenty Baldur's Gate to me. It's hugely different from DOS.

And people be like, "Other than the story, the setting, the characters, the lore, the races, the gods, the locations, the core mechanics, the classes, the stats, the combat system, the IP, the equipment, the magic system, the resting system, the armor system, the tone, the themes, the presentation of dialogues, the cinematic nature, the skill checks, the advantage/disadvantage system, the saving throw system, the monsters, the factions, the stealth system, and the spells/abilities . . . other than those few MINOR things, this game is JUST LIKE DIVINITY."

Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 06:34 PM
Originally Posted by DistantStranger
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

If you'd like, I can send you a PM every time I make a new post


Is this an open offer, or an achievement one unlocks through sufficient harassment?

Asking for a friend.



Well I dunno, I do really like harassment...
Posted By: DistantStranger Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 06:40 PM
No dispute.

But this is the child of many parents and some have had greater influence than others. It is unmistakably Dungeons and Dragons, but is equally Larian as well.

It is as jarring at first as jumping into a pool which is colder than one had expected but it all becomes comfortable rather quickly I think.


edit:

Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by DistantStranger
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies

If you'd like, I can send you a PM every time I make a new post


Is this an open offer, or an achievement one unlocks through sufficient harassment?

Asking for a friend.



Well I dunno, I do really like harassment...


Love your sense of humor lady
Posted By: Uncle Lester Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 07:00 PM
Tbh I don't care how similar to D:OS it is, I care how much it does or doesn't feel BG. And no, by that I don't mean "copy Infinity Engine". (Then again, "overpresence" of one game's influences - be it D:OS or DA - will be at the cost of any potential BG feel, so in that sense I do care how similar it is to D:OS or DA.)

Funnily enough, Firesnakearies' quote also (mostly) matches for something else:

"Other than the story, the setting, the characters, the lore, the races, the gods, the locations, the core mechanics, the classes, the stats, the combat system, the IP, the equipment, the magic system, the resting system, the armor system, the tone, the themes, the presentation of dialogues, the cinematic nature, the skill checks, the advantage/disadvantage system, the saving throw system, the monsters, the factions, the stealth system, the lack of day/night cycle and weather, the party size, the party management, the camp, the barrelmancy, the surfaces, the aesthetics and the spells/abilities . . . other than those few MINOR things, this game is JUST LIKE DIVINITY BALDUR'S GATE."

(Slightly overemphasized for dramatic effect... but only slightly.)
Posted By: biomag Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by guy
As you said, you think it is better to compare it to DOS than BG 1 or 2.

That, specifically, is a problem for me. I am here to play BG, not DOS.


Was about to say that. This is a huge problem. The game appears as if it was D:OS that tries to be DA. Set in Faerun and with 5e rules. And titled BG3 for some reason. Location and some story links aren't enough.



Yup. That's my perception of the game as well. I would just add that it fails in trying to be DA, but that's about it.

The more time I've spent with BG3 the bigger the disappointment became. At first I bought into the classes and 5e surface, but the feeling of the game has nothing to do with BG. Even the 5e ruleset that is in there in huge parts gets watered down in the most obvious and significant parts to see the DOS mentality underneath everything (not talking about UI and some old engine related quirks, I don't care about these placeholders one bit). Honestly I after DOS2 I would never had both any other DOS-game for full price, even less wasted time on a EA. I was expecting a BG3 game as they kept harping about how much they care about making it a 5e experience.

Sadly they have also completely failed making the characters feel like D&D characters. With storys far bigger than their level, enemies that should be far too potent for level 1 characters, arch druids on level 5,.... non of these would bother me in a different type of game. I actually prefer games that don't use a level mechanic like D&D. But in D&D its different. Levels are not mentioned in the story, but you simply feel them in everything. BG3 has none of it. They are meaningless beyond gameplay itself and it feels off. A party of 4 level 4 characters killing a beholder? Really?

And this negligence in design is too obvious when you look at your origin characters. There is no elegance in their writting or background story. Even the tadpole as explenation for them not having their full powers is grotesque lazy. Do I need a party of 4 Eders? No, but at the same time I am a 100% the BG3 team couldn't pull of even one. For all the shit I might give PoE, they had fitting companions - non too big, slowly growing to the challenges, giving insights into the world with their own background, never overwhelming the player character. A good character is more often than not memorable because of their behavior and quirks, not the big special background story. Also all Larian characters being the actual main characters it leaves no room for a custom character.

Now if the game was just about origin characters and the custom character was advertised as second thought/additional opion I would be fine with it. If that's the game they want to create, I won't object. But they didn't and instead assured us that the custom character is important and will be a full experience. They are not and the game overall is not was they said it would be. At least to me, so feel free to disagree.
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 07:57 PM
The journey from zero to hero was one of the coolest aspects of BG1 and 2, yeah. I do like playing more experienced characters, though, and i'd say 'Tav' lends itself very much to that.

At the same time, though, i'd say the problem isn't really that the companions' backstories are too large, it's just that we're not eased into them. Look at the aforementioned Dragon Age:Origins, Alistair, Morrigan, Zevran all have pretty extensive backgrounds, but we're not just dumped into them right after leaving Ostagar. Compare with Wyll and, especially, Gale, in my opinion the most badly done by this point of view. They just unload everything in Act 1, after a short time that feels like a short time, and that left me a bit perplexed. (Again, especially Gale. I get he has attachment issues, but geez)
Posted By: Zellin Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by Innateagle
The journey from zero to hero was one of the coolest aspects of BG1 and 2, yeah. I do like playing more experienced characters, though, and i'd say 'Tav' lends itself very much to that.

At the same time, though, i'd say the problem isn't really that the companions' backstories are too large, it's just that we're not eased into them. Look at the aforementioned Dragon Age:Origins, Alistair, Morrigan, Zevran all have pretty extensive backgrounds, but we're not just dumped into them right after leaving Ostagar. Compare with Wyll and, especially, Gale, in my opinion the most badly done by this point of view. They just unload everything in Act 1, after a short time that feels like a short time, and that left me a bit perplexed. (Again, especially Gale. I get he has attachment issues, but geez)

If Larian isn't out of their own habits, what they unloaded at the moment is far away from everything. They had it same way in D:OS2, where you would feel like you got to know the whole problem of your companion at the Act 1, but for real there are plot twists and new revelations ahead.
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by Innateagle
The journey from zero to hero was one of the coolest aspects of BG1 and 2, yeah. I do like playing more experienced characters, though, and i'd say 'Tav' lends itself very much to that.

At the same time, though, i'd say the problem isn't really that the companions' backstories are too large, it's just that we're not eased into them. Look at the aforementioned Dragon Age:Origins, Alistair, Morrigan, Zevran all have pretty extensive backgrounds, but we're not just dumped into them right after leaving Ostagar. Compare with Wyll and, especially, Gale, in my opinion the most badly done by this point of view. They just unload everything in Act 1, after a short time that feels like a short time, and that left me a bit perplexed. (Again, especially Gale. I get he has attachment issues, but geez)

If Larian isn't out of their own habits, what they unloaded at the moment is far away from everything. They had it same way in D:OS2, where you would feel like you got to know the whole problem of your companion at the Act 1, but for real there are plot twists and new revelations ahead.


I can see that for SH and Lae'zel, but not for, say, Wyll. Or at least it's not done in a good way. We're knee-deep in his quest 5 minutes after meeting him. As a sidenote, that also kind of hurts the couple talks where they hint he's not actually that big of a hero, or when a warlock can call him out. It's foreshadowing for its own sake, for stuff that we'll get to know within a hour's time. Again, compare with Alistair and Duncan (and Cailan!!). That's foreshadowing done well in my opinion, that on replays make you go 'oh!'.

I guess maybe it's a byproduct of the Origin's system, that we get to know a lot all at once, but meh.
Posted By: Zellin Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by Innateagle
The journey from zero to hero was one of the coolest aspects of BG1 and 2, yeah. I do like playing more experienced characters, though, and i'd say 'Tav' lends itself very much to that.

At the same time, though, i'd say the problem isn't really that the companions' backstories are too large, it's just that we're not eased into them. Look at the aforementioned Dragon Age:Origins, Alistair, Morrigan, Zevran all have pretty extensive backgrounds, but we're not just dumped into them right after leaving Ostagar. Compare with Wyll and, especially, Gale, in my opinion the most badly done by this point of view. They just unload everything in Act 1, after a short time that feels like a short time, and that left me a bit perplexed. (Again, especially Gale. I get he has attachment issues, but geez)

If Larian isn't out of their own habits, what they unloaded at the moment is far away from everything. They had it same way in D:OS2, where you would feel like you got to know the whole problem of your companion at the Act 1, but for real there are plot twists and new revelations ahead.


I can see that for SH and Lae'zel, but not for, say, Wyll. Or at least it's not done in a good way. We're knee-deep in his quest 5 minutes after meeting him. As a sidenote, that also kind of hurts the couple talks where they hint he's not actually that big of a hero, or when a warlock can call him out. It's foreshadowing for its own sake, for stuff that we'll get to know within a hour's time. Again, compare with Alistair and Duncan (and Cailan!!). That's foreshadowing done well in my opinion, that on replays make you go 'oh!'.

I guess maybe it's a byproduct of the Origin's system, that we get to know a lot all at once, but meh.

This whole Wyll's quest can be nothing more than a first stage of his quest. Like find Mizora and find out... something, I can come up with a few possible things from not that exciting to making Wyll's whole life much more complicated. Same with Gale, there is even some speculations already that he's actually lying to us and his whole situation with Mystra was quite different from what he says.
Foreshadowing is a problem for sure. Would be great if they would make a trick similar to the one they did with Astarion, who get's his vampiric attack only after his confession. With Wylls backstory he could pretend to be a rogue or a dex-fighter for a while.
Posted By: Phea Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by Innateagle
I can see that for SH and Lae'zel, but not for, say, Wyll. Or at least it's not done in a good way. We're knee-deep in his quest 5 minutes after meeting him. As a sidenote, that also kind of hurts the couple talks where they hint he's not actually that big of a hero, or when a warlock can call him out. It's foreshadowing for its own sake, for stuff that we'll get to know within a hour's time. Again, compare with Alistair and Duncan (and Cailan!!). That's foreshadowing done well in my opinion, that on replays make you go 'oh!'.

I guess maybe it's a byproduct of the Origin's system, that we get to know a lot all at once, but meh.


It's worth to remember we don't know everything yet. They may sometimes lie or not tell us the whole truth. Or they may just not know everything about themselves. For example, I suspect Astarion isn't just a poor innocent vampire victim, and that he tells only this part of truth which makes the player feel sorry for him. It might be similar with Wyll. Maybe in the turning-point MC will discover that he is in fact a Hell's prince or something? Silly example, but I think you know what I mean. Act 1 is the exposition. We have to know origins' backstories to play with them later. It feels quite fresh to get these info in the first part of the game, because it means the writers has so interesting plans for their characters, they had to inform us about their past early.
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by Innateagle
The journey from zero to hero was one of the coolest aspects of BG1 and 2, yeah. I do like playing more experienced characters, though, and i'd say 'Tav' lends itself very much to that.

At the same time, though, i'd say the problem isn't really that the companions' backstories are too large, it's just that we're not eased into them. Look at the aforementioned Dragon Age:Origins, Alistair, Morrigan, Zevran all have pretty extensive backgrounds, but we're not just dumped into them right after leaving Ostagar. Compare with Wyll and, especially, Gale, in my opinion the most badly done by this point of view. They just unload everything in Act 1, after a short time that feels like a short time, and that left me a bit perplexed. (Again, especially Gale. I get he has attachment issues, but geez)

If Larian isn't out of their own habits, what they unloaded at the moment is far away from everything. They had it same way in D:OS2, where you would feel like you got to know the whole problem of your companion at the Act 1, but for real there are plot twists and new revelations ahead.


I can see that for SH and Lae'zel, but not for, say, Wyll. Or at least it's not done in a good way. We're knee-deep in his quest 5 minutes after meeting him. As a sidenote, that also kind of hurts the couple talks where they hint he's not actually that big of a hero, or when a warlock can call him out. It's foreshadowing for its own sake, for stuff that we'll get to know within a hour's time. Again, compare with Alistair and Duncan (and Cailan!!). That's foreshadowing done well in my opinion, that on replays make you go 'oh!'.

I guess maybe it's a byproduct of the Origin's system, that we get to know a lot all at once, but meh.

This whole Wyll's quest can be nothing more than a first stage of his quest. Like find Mizora and find out... something, I can come up with a few possible things from not that exciting to making Wyll's whole life much more complicated. Same with Gale, there is even some speculations already that he's actually lying to us and his whole situation with Mystra was quite different from what he says.
Foreshadowing is a problem for sure. Would be great if they would make a trick similar to the one they did with Astarion, who get's his vampiric attack only after his confession. With Wylls backstory he could pretend to be a rogue or a dex-fighter for a while.


I mean, Astarion's got white hair, red eyes and fangs hahaha I see your point, though.

As for Wyll, sure. My point though is that there's too much going on for it to be the first act. That maybe we'll learn more later on is another can of worms. Right now, Wyll is the one i care the least about because we're given so much about him in such a short time that i couldn't assimilate any of it, so despite the concept of his character intriguing me the execution just made me go 'okay'.

Again, as an Origin it probably works pretty well, as a companion not so much.

Originally Posted by Phea


It's worth to remember we don't know everything yet. They may sometimes lie or not tell us the whole truth. Or they may just not know everything about themselves. For example, I suspect Astarion isn't just a poor innocent vampire victim, and that he tells only this part of truth which makes the player feel sorry for him. It might be similar with Wyll. Maybe in the turning-point MC will discover that he is in fact a Hell's prince or something? Silly example, but I think you know what I mean. Act 1 is the exposition. We have to know origins' backstories to play with them later. It feels quite fresh to get these info in the first part of the game, because it means the writers has so interesting plans for their characters, they had to inform us about their past early.


I didn't really touch upon Astarion because from what i've seen i don't think he's got Gale and Wyll's issue (and becuase i haven't seen all that much tbh, since i never really got anything other than his most basic dialogues).
Posted By: Verte Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by Innateagle

As for Wyll, sure. My point though is that there's too much going on for it to be the first act. That maybe we'll learn more later on is another can of worms. Right now, Wyll is the one i care the least about because we're given so much about him in such a short time that i couldn't assimilate any of it, so despite the concept of his character intriguing me the execution just made me go 'okay'.

Again, as an Origin it probably works pretty well, as a companion not so much.


I have the impression that the most interesting thing about him is Mizora. Most boring origin companion so far.

Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by Phea


It's worth to remember we don't know everything yet. They may sometimes lie or not tell us the whole truth. Or they may just not know everything about themselves. For example, I suspect Astarion isn't just a poor innocent vampire victim, and that he tells only this part of truth which makes the player feel sorry for him. It might be similar with Wyll. Maybe in the turning-point MC will discover that he is in fact a Hell's prince or something? Silly example, but I think you know what I mean. Act 1 is the exposition. We have to know origins' backstories to play with them later. It feels quite fresh to get these info in the first part of the game, because it means the writers has so interesting plans for their characters, they had to inform us about their past early.


I didn't really touch upon Astarion because from what i've seen i don't think he's got Gale and Wyll's issue (and becuase i haven't seen all that much tbh, since i never really got anything other than his most basic dialogues).


About Astarion's background
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat...arions_background_retcon_or_extra_depth/
Posted By: Phea Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by Verte

I know, I know wink But I've also hard rumors his backstory could have changed in the meantime and his writer says nothing is set in stone until the full game release.

Originally Posted by Innateagle

I didn't really touch upon Astarion because from what i've seen i don't think he's got Gale and Wyll's issue (and becuase i haven't seen all that much tbh, since i never really got anything other than his most basic dialogues).


The more a companion likes you, the more he tells you. I, for example, don't know much about Shadowheart because I always failed persuasion tests. Maybe you feel you know too many things about Gale and Wyll, because they trusted you.
Posted By: Verte Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by Phea

I know, I know wink But I've also hard rumors his backstory could have changed in the meantime and his writer says nothing is set in stone until the full game release.


It would be funny if his story somehow connects with Wyll's (infernal tattoo).
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by Phea
Originally Posted by Verte

I know, I know wink But I've also hard rumors his backstory could have changed in the meantime and his writer says nothing is set in stone until the full game release.

Originally Posted by Innateagle

I didn't really touch upon Astarion because from what i've seen i don't think he's got Gale and Wyll's issue (and becuase i haven't seen all that much tbh, since i never really got anything other than his most basic dialogues).


The more a companion likes you, the more he tells you. I, for example, don't know much about Shadowheart because I always failed persuasion tests. Maybe you feel you know too many things about Gale and Wyll, because they trusted you.


I already talked about it but i don't think that's it. It is kinda funny that some of them can go up even to high in the 1st part of the 1st act, which is described as them trusting you completely.
Posted By: gaymer Re: Seriously. Scrap origins - 06/12/20 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by biomag
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
Originally Posted by guy
As you said, you think it is better to compare it to DOS than BG 1 or 2.

That, specifically, is a problem for me. I am here to play BG, not DOS.


Was about to say that. This is a huge problem. The game appears as if it was D:OS that tries to be DA. Set in Faerun and with 5e rules. And titled BG3 for some reason. Location and some story links aren't enough.



Yup. That's my perception of the game as well. I would just add that it fails in trying to be DA, but that's about it.

The more time I've spent with BG3 the bigger the disappointment became. At first I bought into the classes and 5e surface, but the feeling of the game has nothing to do with BG. Even the 5e ruleset that is in there in huge parts gets watered down in the most obvious and significant parts to see the DOS mentality underneath everything (not talking about UI and some old engine related quirks, I don't care about these placeholders one bit). Honestly I after DOS2 I would never had both any other DOS-game for full price, even less wasted time on a EA. I was expecting a BG3 game as they kept harping about how much they care about making it a 5e experience.

Sadly they have also completely failed making the characters feel like D&D characters. With storys far bigger than their level, enemies that should be far too potent for level 1 characters, arch druids on level 5,.... non of these would bother me in a different type of game. I actually prefer games that don't use a level mechanic like D&D. But in D&D its different. Levels are not mentioned in the story, but you simply feel them in everything. BG3 has none of it. They are meaningless beyond gameplay itself and it feels off. A party of 4 level 4 characters killing a beholder? Really?

And this negligence in design is too obvious when you look at your origin characters. There is no elegance in their writting or background story. Even the tadpole as explenation for them not having their full powers is grotesque lazy. Do I need a party of 4 Eders? No, but at the same time I am a 100% the BG3 team couldn't pull of even one. For all the shit I might give PoE, they had fitting companions - non too big, slowly growing to the challenges, giving insights into the world with their own background, never overwhelming the player character. A good character is more often than not memorable because of their behavior and quirks, not the big special background story. Also all Larian characters being the actual main characters it leaves no room for a custom character.

Now if the game was just about origin characters and the custom character was advertised as second thought/additional opion I would be fine with it. If that's the game they want to create, I won't object. But they didn't and instead assured us that the custom character is important and will be a full experience. They are not and the game overall is not was they said it would be. At least to me, so feel free to disagree.


Writing is always Larian's weakest point. Even the connection of DOS1 to DOS2 doesn't really make sense with the Sourcerer thing.

And the way they did the end of DOS2 Nameless Island and Arx was so rushed. Even when they tried to "fix" it for Definitive Edition, the closure just still isn't right. The story was always the weakest part of the game and the fact they tried to link it to DOS1 but retcon it was confusing.

They don't specialize in good writing and a good story, which also makes the investment in Origins frustrating.
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