Its been something that just so weighed ever so lightly on my mind.
" Why the HELL is no one afraid of an actual Devil following us around? "
For testing purposes and conveniences sake we all just ignored this, right? Right?
That will not be just the norm that no one in Fae'run will care, right? ^^


So here is my quick fix suggestion: Just make it so that their invisibility is automatically activated.
Or that its actually even more -> as if they are in a wierd limbo between material and being in the Hells while they follow us around.
Imagine some dude walking past you,
and then you hear this wierd flying noise or walking sound.

People would think the Warlock is haunted at least.

I don't know about NPCs, but companions hate summonings by the the Warlock. Occasionally you see a small popup list of everyone getting a -5 attitude towards the caster (Wyll or the main character). Presumably if you did that near the NPCs in the grove, they'd have the same issue. Maybe not the Tieflings, they are part infernal themselves after all and spent time in Avernus so saw imps before. The druids would likely not like it much, though one could say they've been putting up with the Tieflings who they think are devils too.

I wish they'd fix the companions reaction though. Not liking it the first time, fine. But to keep hating on it makes playing a Warlock difficult to keep the companions' attitudes above neutral. Not to mention anyone at camp tends to be hostile if you come back with *any* summoned creature in tow.

Really? °_°
Never noticed that.
But I mean in general DEVILS have this giant bad reputation,
they are like the worst of the worst no matter their size and such...
and then we just walk around with one and nobody says ANYTHING. ^_^

Especially Druids are like "everything must be natural"-Hippies, right?

If a Devil is not something unnatural for the planets standarts, then what is?
Openly siding with a Devil or making a pact with him, the equivalent in our own world be to say an ISIS member is one's best pal.
Nobody trusts them ( until they want help from one ) and publicy its like everybody agrees...
... and then we, an outsider, walk in this united community of Druids and they just shrug it off. Yeaaaaaaaah right.


But hey even the Tiefs have a reason to cast us out!
Tiefs are seen as low-class, or "trash Devils" by more pureblooded or higher class Devils right?
And the Devils will not openly tolerate anyone deserting this... eternal War thingy, right?

If Tieflings see someone running around WITH A FULLBLOODED DEVIL, no matter how tiny, isnt that like really, really bad in terms for their location? ^^

Apparently the Erinyes could just send a group of 10 over,
with their super high base stats, maybe even 15 or even 20 and try to either kill or force every Tiefling back into the 9 Hells, or not!?
The Druids might even cheer them on for that -> if the Erinyes can convince the Druids that they are still non-fallen Celestials helping out some mortals.

• I think being a Tiefling is way more hardcore and dangerous than LarianStudio thinks.

I noticed this as well and was wondering why. After all it makes no sense for them to have such a reaction especially every time you summon your imp or what have you. After all they tolerate a Vamp in your party and a devil showing up trying to get you into a pact. I played a warlock once but when I seen the continued reaction from the other party members every time I summoned my imp I decided to re-roll my Tav

No, that's not accurate.


No, that's not accurate.


No, that's not accurate.


No, that's not accurate. Tieflings are not hellspawn. They have never been hellspawn. Their original entry in their very first official publication made no mention whatsoever of the hells or the abyss, and cast them as plane-touched. they have always been plane-touched.


No, that's not accurate.


No, it isn't, not necessarily. It may be, but not necessarily. Many arcane casters use imps or quasits as familiars, and have done for many, many years. It says nothing about their own alignment or goals.


No, that's not accurate. Tieflings are not from the hells.

^
That post... seems not accurate (with information).
Just disagreeing and providing not a short drop of info as to why, brilliant.
Well - for people officially not being Devils, the people of Fae'run (the Druids too) call them Hellspawn & Foulblood, or a Devilchild quite often.


And from what I have seen a Tiefling is simply a 3/4 Mortal and 1/4 Devil, bloodline-wise.
Enough infernal heritage to make them look kinda Fiendish, but they have no destructive or infernal Urges that truly control them.
Their personalitys shape accordingly to how the world treats them.

While a Cambion seems to think of itself as superior because of its devlish heritage and is most likely to side with the Lords of the Hells.

I tried providing evidence and citing official lore sources last time; you didn't care or listen. What reason have I to suppose you would this time?

Aren't you misremembering Bruh as Baldu?



Devils are definitely among the worst of the worst no matter their size. Followed maybe only by Demons, Daemons, and Unspeakable Things From Even Further Beyond Our Imagination That We Can't Even Perceive. And mimes.



While it's certainly correct that Druids are not necessarily hippies, infernal beings are 100% the kind of thing Druids are supposed to defend the world from, in my view.



Not touching the joke, but it's certainly not a sign of good character.



Tieflings were literally claimed by the number one devil as his own.

And while Tieflings are not devil or demons in any way, they are certainly spawned by the hells. You know enough about Tieflings that I am certain you are aware that they became Lower-Plane-related by the second publication that featured them, when they were further split into Tieflings, Aasimar, and Genasi.



It's pretty accurate. But I'm assuming what you're actually responding to is the insinuation that all Tieflings are deserters from the Blood War, right? Which isn't true by the way, @Baldu, because Tieflings aren't fiends and not part of the fiendish armies fighting there.



That's one of the reason casters are feared though... A general propensaity towards seeking the aid, advice, and guidance of infernal beings.



This one is entirely correct. @Baldu -- Tieflings are mortals and only distantly related to the lower planes. The ones ingame, if I understand correctly, probably mostly used to be human until recently when the city they lived in got dragged into hell and every person with even the slightest drop of fiendish blood up and turned into a Tiefling or something.

To the original topic, maybe a fix to this would be that some characters have lower approval if you have a summon out, therefor trusting you less? Like many wizards and other magical beings wouldn't care but a druid or paladin might, and while they would not be outright hostile the lower approval would show they don't trust that? If the system was to be made more comprehensive, could apply to other types of summons like fey or such and summons added later. I do think the lack of reaction to the devil/demon can be... odd at times, even when considering how lower level fiends are often made into slaves and servants by wizards/warlocks, but I also don't want summoning type characters to get heavily penalized cause Summoning is the thing I love.

How about, instead of it just messing with the very fuzzy approval concept, it starts a conversation:
"Hey, aren't those the things that we just had to fight through to get out of the hells? Why are you bringing them here?"
"Oh, this one is harmless to us - I just use it for my work. Nothing to worry about." or "Oh, it's a fey - it just looks like an imp."
"Well you might not want to have that thing out in the open - it's kinda freaking people out."

Unexplained changes to already poorly explained numbers aren't helpful for letting the player know what's going on and why. Have a conversation.

Claiming that tieflings are not hellspawns is false. They are.
Tieflings all have infernal heritage, be it baatezu or tanar'ri, or yugoloth.
They are literal spawns of evil. And yeah, druids who are supposed protectors of nature, are not supposed to be happy about them, the same way they are not supposed to be happy about the encroachment of civilization on their own territory. Personally I think that the portrayal of druids as these very strange hippies who somehow always end up being diplomatic and nice is nonsensical.
But then tieflings being nice and an ethnic group of their very own is also nonsensical, because tieflings were supposed to be rare and often come about as the offsrping of 2 normal humans who have a devil or two up in their bloodlines.
Personally I feel like much of the race-hysteria could be resolved in the game if different races simply couldn't have babies together.

By the definition that every human with infernal bloodline that hasn't manifested in tieflinghood is, yes. By the definition of being fiends, no.

Sorry, I'm tired and a little burned out, and I'm responding more waspishly than I should.

Tieflings aren't hellspawn - that's a racial slur. They are born on the material plane (generally), and are 'spawned' by mortal parents; elves, humans, dwarves, halflings etc., not by any hell-born creature. They *might* have a fiendish ancestor somewhere back along the line; *probably*, even. They don't necessarily have one... This is because they are plane-touched, and not fiends. Plane-touching can come about in a variety of ways, and direct siring and interbreeding is only one of them. If you don't know (and you won't in most cases), then by all means be cautious, but don't make assumptions. Almost no tiefling alive today decided to become one. Most were born that way with no say in the matter. It has no bearing on their individual personality or propensities towards good and evil, save in the way they are often treated (without just cause, usually) by ignorant or racist people. Characterising a tiefling as hellspawn is just a derogatory, and not something anyone who considers themselves a good person should engage in.

Yes, they are supposed to be less common; current world events explain the reason they aren't, right now. IT is true ,and an interesting aspect, theat they are often thought about as a race of peopl , but they aren't, truly.... they're just people who, by virtue of their existence don't have any kind of unified culture or history. A tiefling born to elven parents and raised by them would have elven values and customs, and halfling-born tiefling would have halfling culture and custom. Tieflings abandoned or raised from orphanhood often have no cultural background or norms at all, save those they developed in whatever city they grew up in. These would be interesting conversations and character-building explorations to go through - these are the kinds of things that should show up in racial dialogue tags. Not one-off racially-motivated remarks or insults.

The 'no matter how small' is the objectionable part; an imp is just an imp. I'd be far more concerned about someone I saw traveling the darkened streets of baldur's gate with a pacted red cap in tow ready to break some kneecaps, than I would a mage with an imp carrying their books. An imp is not the worst of the worst, and using one is not equivalent to wearing a sign saying that you're friends with terrorists. Someone commanding higher-order fiends would definitely be worthy of concern. Imps, not so much.

Druids must certainly defend the balance, in their personal view of it, and follow a version of whatever natural philosophy their particular circle holds. They are not "'everything must be natural' hippies."; that's ridiculous.

Bruh, if you met an aasimar would you automatically fall all over yourself to befriend them and treat them like an awesome person and presume the very best of them right off the bat without any evidence of the sort of person they are? Somehow I doubt you would; so why give the inverse of that to tieflings? If you would, then how would you feel about it when that aasimar shows you this really cool spot off the beaten track where they can break your legs and steal all of your stuff for being so gullible?

I'm not going to engage with this topic any more; I'm sorry for being aggressive. It's taking up too much of my time and energy, and I'm already being encouraged by people I trust to not engage with the forum discussions as much.

On Topic:

The reason people react badly to you summoning is becuase it's treated in the game design as an aggressive or hostile action, and people don't like you doing it near them. Non-standard summons also cause comments, but the attitude strikes come from summoning too close to a person's general proximity, or from a character seeing you do so to someone else. At least, that has been my experience of it so far. You get the same attitude strikes from throwing a damaging AoE spell close to an NPC, but not hitting them with it, I believe.

Thank you for your clarification, optimistically apocalyptic Fishman.


@more to the original meaning of this topic

As lore indicates there are 3 types of orders, or classes, that have a high problem with unholy or infernal beings.
° Paladins ( of course)
° Clerics ( which have always been less armored and more magical Paladins to me)
° Druids ( just like Clerics & Paladins they are enforcers of divine wills, but they tend to listen more to Deitys associated with nature )


Of course a shady Cleric of Shar like Edgyheart, or a "rogue Paladin" like Anders would probably not even blink when they see my Warlocks little Fiends.
But a whole group of Druids or a group of Tiefling refugees which are basically only on the run because of the Hells messed up their lifes?
I do not expect deaththreats and drawn weapons right away.

But not even a mentioning of the summoned Fiends?
It feels very lacking and immersion breaking to me.
Have our Warlocks justify themself.
Tieflings persuasion roll: " This one is my servant and I control it completely. It serves me, not the other way around. But if you hate to see it, I can send it back to the Hells for the meanwhile. "
Druids persuasion roll: " This is like a tool, a blade, or a Slave to me. It helped me to defend your Grove from the Goblin attack. It shall not be a thorn in your side. "

Making it invisible or force it to stay behind might make it easier though.
Something, anything! It is a bloody Devil after all.



>snort
I doubt many of this slur users do even know that but believe it to be so.
Makes me wonder if a Tiefling is born looking like one of is the appearance changing very quickly during its growth?

It seems a BaldursGate3 design choice to give them this "demonic eyes".
But this design is definitely not helping in having more clarity about the topic.
Everyone knows Jester of critical Role I guess. She feels a lot less "demonic" just by having "Humanoid eyes".

Take care of yourself first and foremost, Ni. Don't overclock yourself for the sake of analysing computter game . I saw you mentioning similar in another thread and even though I think you are some of the most insightful regulars on here I do hope you don't wear yourself down.




This feels like semantics to me, whether a fiend is personally involved in the origin of the bloodline or whether it's because of mystical circumstances they're still spawned by the Lower Planes and thus fit the descriptor of hellspawn.

I also feel that even if it's wrongheaded per se it's not relatable to racism and ignorance as in real world hate and ignorance when in-setting characters think of Tieflings as hellspawn or fiendish. Regardless of the individuals themelves Tieflings do bear a mark of the hells on them and people who can recognise that should fear and shun them. Anything else just completely dissolves the narrative of Tieflings being stigmatized and othered.



It would have been interesting if Larian had treated the Tieflings group as less like a nation and more like a community that's come together out of necessity where the some of people weren't even Tieflings before the events of Escape From New Dis City (if I understand things correctly). Less person-being-tired-of-casual-racism rolling their eyes about people in Elturel not treating them well (as if the people of Elturel had not just been through a major hell-related trauma) and more person-expressing-their-own-trauma-of-suddenly-becoming-Tieflinated, and if there were non-tiefling humans there who had found themselves exiled because they'd rather stay with their relatives than abandon them, and fractures between Old Blood Tieflings who were a community before the events and New Blood people who have become part of it since the Descent.

My favourite Tieflings (aside from Mattis obviously), on a related note, are the three friends arguing about whether they should stay or make their own way to BG; simply because they are the only example of drama or conflict within the group -- the only people that make the group seem alive.



I definitely disagree. Of course imps are just imps and only arch-devils are arch-devils -- but this is almost literally degrees in hell. Cavorting with fiends should worry and scare people. Showing up with one in tow should yield you glares, hushed whispers, cold shoulders, and bad reputation.



This is a very good point, and I do think you hit the head of the nail on what's happening.

Yes they are hellspawn. Also they are now a homogenous race of their own unlike before, so yes they are even more definitely hellspawn then before.
Also I just fell of my chair laughing.
Imagine this situation:
You die and end up going to hell where you are destined to eternally toil under an opressive regime of archdevils in an eternal torturous war against demons and constant plotting and one-upmanship amongst fiends.
BUT at least you are not racist.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, shit man, that's the hill you're going to die on? Okay xD

Hellspawn is a classification that does not apply to tieflings, and in fact does not exist in 5e outside of being an insult.

Tieflings are in fact planetouched

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Tiefling

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Hell_Spawn_(3.5e_Template)

We can call them fiendspawn too. I will just stick to hellspawn though.

Nobody goes to hell for not using the word hellspawn.

LoL Gotcha moment
That's not what my point was though.

Well that's the point your words carry.

Under your interpretation perharps

Technically, the imp isnt necessarily a "real" imp. It isn't the final form of some evil baker or low level mook. Find familiar puts a spirit of your choice (fey, celestial or fiend) into a form. Normally you only pick beasts, but the Pact of the Chain lets you pick other forms. So you could have a fey imp, a fiendish pseudodragon, or a celestial quasit (just kidding, no one ever picks quasit).

Sounds all like wishiwashi something to me.
Or rather that there are just many different types of Familiars. But it is not because of some "superior Familiar magic" that they take a form.
More like many beings which are all real and complete in what they are can 'become' a Familiar.

There is no Magic that makes a Spirit look like a Fiend. ( Appart from Polymorph. )

If you pacted with a TRUE Fiend, probably not the little sh*t we can summon but a greater Devil even, they will simply allow you to call forth one of THEIR servants as aid for yourself.
This is how I have seen this little Fiends all this time. Of course this must not necessarily be what has occured.
Maybe we asked such a little, unimpressive Fiend himself, with a deal that let us even keep our Soul just because a little sh*t Devil like this is not impressive enough to sell our souls too.
Cause what can he give, huh?
I imagine this totally lowclass tiny Devils to be glad if you just offer them to be able to kill someone, aka doing Evil stuff for an Evil alignment creature, just to be willing to answer your call.

But Warlocks seem more powerful. They get access to abilitys far beyond just summoning a little Devil.
I imagine that the Warlocks we can play, are all at least in carhoots with a Cambion at least.



Juicy details asside - I doubt that Paladins, Clerics or Druids know about any of this and why would they? As they are opposing Deals with the "evil forces" by all means, right?
They wouldn't know why a creature looking 10/10 like a Devil, would follow you around without trying to slice your throat open immediately.
So everybody might assume you are one of this infamous fools making pacts with Devils and allowing them more influence and power of the people o Fae'run in one way or another.

Someone walking around with a Devil... HAH. As if they would not ask questions.
But hey the whole being a Drow part is also mostly unanswered and leaves more to desire.
Drow are infamous themself for being a type of super sketchy, evil Elf.

The few little mentions of it here and there are truly... cute.
Gives me hope for the final version.
Being of a highly infamous Race or walking around with a very infamous creature is not truly mirrored in the current version of the game.


I dunno about Tieflings but the Druids, who host many Elves as their members, they should be way more wary of Drows.
Ask the dwarfen Poison Ivy. ^^

In previous editions of DnD, Magic users would often have fiends as familiars, and not necessarily evil magic users either. The assumption often is that you are in control and that creature is obeying you. In 4e, for example, I had a bound demon as a familiar and at a low level would summon a dretch to take care of my enemies. But at the time I was not evil (yet), and I had those things under control. Similarly, in Faerun, magic users employ lower level fiends often. They are easier to bound and/or trick into servitude, and there is the assumption that they can not do as much harm as a higher level fiend. Many of these magic users may be evil, but some are also good and use their conjuration/enchantment skills for heroics. So while a Druid or Cleric may not like it, it may be uncouth of them to jump to the immediate conclusion and have worse repercussions attacking the mage that is helping save their home or is keeping the devil weak and bound. That being said, more dialogue of discomfort or concern would be good, or even options (that might not necessarily be good aligned) that open up purely because the familiar is a fiend instead of other options.

And in current 5e, surface drow have become more and more of a thing so they are not considered as sketchy as they used to be as there are more interacting with the people.

Can it be, that Fae'run is suddenly not so cool anymore?

Why even have something as unyielding in their own evil ways as the Drow when suddenly "Drizzt" clones seem to be way more of the norm?
Aaaaaaaaah sh*t it is happening again!!
The exception was so cool now everybody clones it until its ruined and becoming another form of meaningless norm.

This is what I feel from that clarification.
°sigh°

Thats so dumb.
But hey I guess it kinda mirrors progress in the forgotten Realms.
Similar to how World of RacewarCraft evolved.
The Horde of now is also just a complete joke to what it was in Vanilla.

Everybody that is cool must be watered down sooner or later.
What a sh*tshow.


AAAH and now I regret everyting.
A Mod - please just close this topic.

I am a Kelemvor hater anyways and would sell my soul over 9000 times sooner to a Devil, as to let this pathetic, poor excuse of a "Hades god" judge me.
Way cooler to be an eternal brainless Devil maggot, as to be stuck as a screaming face frozen in time forever in this wall of the humiliated.

I agree with you on FR becoming watered down, but I wouldn't sell my soul to the devil, it's a really bad deal.
The reason the lore is changing into this lukewarm garbage is because WoTC wants to make more money so they are going for popular appeal. That is why races mean nothing anymore and you have people here who unironically and smugly gloat about this, as if it was a good thing. It is a good thing to them because it offends more oldschool players whom they hate because they want meaningful restrictions. It's just how the world works now, everything becomes garbage so that it can be monetized better.

Welcome to late stage capitalism.

You've had adequate warnings about your posting style and behaviour. This latest post shows that you have not learned the lesson of not being insulting, so I am giving you a week away to consider how to express yourself with more civility in future.

EDIT: And, given you have already tried to bypass past suspensions and bans by creating Alt accounts, your original 7-day suspension is now a permanent ban.

Hahahaha, Bruh - you make me smile! ^^

Appart from that, I agree with about anything you said.
This is not bound to capitalism, just to... this unrealistic expectation that everybody in the world is somehow a happy family.
And the fact that people are consumers at their core with no real traditional values and pride in anything.
Rootless people who do not truly understand people who PRIDE themself in their roots.
A more and more appearing phenomen in the west in general.

The last barrier -> their own visual appearance which they cannot help but to identify with.
I think almost: " Thanks god. At least some aspect that makes us unique. "

But yeah this wierd "equalizationing" stuff is happening all over older franchises, to an extend that really makes you think
" It would have been better, if 'Franchise X' would have just ended with the last season, or game, or series. And not been continued until it became THIS. "
In old Fae'run, being Drizzt was being a rebell.
Now... being a true prideful and unchanging Drow with title and good old Drow-culture cruelty, now THAT is being the rebell.

Seeing it this way it might really be amusing to play an convinced follower of some evil path just for the lulz.
Betray peoples expectations with the so underrated tradition of the expected, that it becomes the unexpected again.

Hmmm.
Oh well.
At least the Tieflings are still loathed in BG3 for their appearance.
Hope is not lost for realistic rejection of something distrustful looking.

Then again we are carrying Tadpols in our heads and we are not turning, breaking with another very hard to negotiate tradition.
Even if this condition our characters have, tends to be the specialness that drives the plot.
Just how we were "scource sensitives" in DivinityOriginalSin2.




It was that mention of 'capitalism' was it?
Was that really so bad what he wrote? A bit on the gloomy side maybe. But not entirely unrelatable.

I don't think this matters as to what it would look like to others.



It's not like spirits have much of a form to begin with. They are pretty much shapeless in conception and takes shape when they enter the material world.

And yes, there is such magic. That's exactly what Find Familiar does.

Anyone who thinks that exiled Drow living on the surface is a new thing that WOTC made specifically for 5e clearly hasn't been following the racial migration and progression of Drow from 2e onward.

Drow have been migrating away to the surface for quite a while now, although in the old days their numbers were relatively few, a small number of small communities that lived in secrecy. The Drow underwent a significant racial split in the absence of lolth in the 3rd era, most went to follow the other dark seldarine, but a not insignificant amount took the opportunity to swap over to Eilistraee, whose main things is that she encourages Drow to leave Lolth society behind and migrate to the surface. Eilistraee was later killed by Lolth at the end of the 3rd era for this after she returned from her godly sabbatical. After that, some of the Drow swapped back to Lolth, but at this point Eilistraee had several thousand followers preaching her doctrine, and the loss of a couple hundred was considered to be acceptable.

Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, and all the other Drow gods who got killed off ages ago were revived at the beginning of 5e, lots of Gods were brought back actually, including Myrkul, the shithead. but past events still remain, and the significant population of Drow that were already living on the surface remained where they were.

Does this mean that the "old" Drow have suddenly ceased to be? No, don't be an idiot. I don't understand people who think like this. Your traditional fem-dom Drow still exist, they haven't been erased. There are still more evil Drow than there are good Drow, and prejudice against Drow is still rife amongst many communities, who likely don't care about whether you are a surface Drow or an Underdark Drow. But this gives people another option for playing their characters beyond being a super evil nasty Drow, or being a Drizz't wannabe.

" Uuhhhh. "


Thats good.


It is not about only the character itself. It is also the world around them.
As long as the traditional surface dweller Races dont start treating any bypassing Drow like they would any other Elf, I am good.
It would be stupid if I see "virtue signaling" and more and more "wannabe-antiracist" in the game.

A few, yes? Gladly.
Many? Hell no!
There is a certain charm to the originality of things.

Star Wars too has evolved into SJW Wars with the times. Noticably so.
And fans are not really taking it well and refuse to accept any Movie after "Return of the Jedi" after all.
Which is probably a good thing.
Didnt liked how they massacred ma boi Han Solo.