Currently, after completing the Act 1 on both sides, one thing felt particulary lacking. The lack of creative interactions with cerain npcs who are important for quests, just beyond slaughtering them; also the possiblity of solving the quests in other ways. Especially since we have the knockout mechanic, we have the npc resurrecting mechanic, we have the prisoner cage at our camp, so why not use those for improving the gameplay and roleplay options?

1) Minthara leads her attack on the grove and we side with tieflings. As for now, game forces the "murderhobo solution" during the ensuring fight...
a) During the battle, we target the drow and she is brought to low health. Judging by her character she should start to flee, which should cause a debuff to all remaining attackers. After the battle we are given the choice of pursing her, resulting in us capturing the drow lady as a prisoner/letting her run/chasing her and finishing her off.
b) We wipe the attackers out and Minthara is the only one alive -> she starts to flee, if no enemies are close, with same options as above
c) During the fight, we knock her out -> when fight ends, we hold Minthara as a prisoner in our camp (as for now, in game journal only updates the quest properly if she is dead and knocking her out makes tieflings finish her off)
d) FIght is ending, with Minthara having enemies close to her and she is brought to low health. She is asking for mercy and surrenders to us.
e) She dies, but we use resurrection scroll on her -> ends up being captured (can't be done currently on enemy characters)
f) Very important IMO, killing enough of the invaders should cause the rest to flee, with their leader calling them cowards and either b) or d) happening.
g) Minthara dies and fight becomes easier, since the bad guys have no leader now

Her current behaviour not only completely defies her character (she considers her life to be valuable and she is pretty cowardly, with her willing to fight only if she can easily win) but also it doesn't make sense for attackers to fight as efficiently if their leader is dead/fleeing/unconscious. It was even said by Minthara that they need a strong hand to lead them, or else they will disperse.

Now, as for what interactions should be when we capture her:
- Interrogating for information, about Moonrise towers, Absolute, her role, who is she, her past, etc.
During the dialogues we should be able to treath her nicely, neutrally or badly, with each type of treatment affecting how she respond to us (like if we treat her well, she willingly reveals to us the information about Moonrise towers + Absolute and offers to join us)
- Trying to convince her to join us (after all, she doesn't want to get punished for failing by her superiors, she needs protection from her previous "allies", only possible with good treatment, logical beginning for redemption arc, which given her character is something that is pretty possible, with later option for romance if player wishes so)
- Finish her off
- Letting her go, possibly meeting her somewhere again


2) If we choose to side with "bad guys", if fight happens between us and Minthara after the celebration party, again, it doesn't make any sense for her to fight until the last breath, neither it makes sense for knockout to not work (currently it puts her to 1 hp, renders her unconscious, but as soon as we end the day again she is willing to fight again with 1 hp, what the hell?). As an example, after we knock her out, simliar interactions could be possible as above, with addition of (if player wishes to do so) spending the rest of night bandaging her, etc to improve the relation.


3) Now, interactions with tieflings
a) If we ask Zevlor to move the tieflings out of the grove, he attacks us. After this happens (and he dies/surrenders/is knocked out), we should have the possibility of our party convincing tieflings to leave, with only druids remaining in the grove.
b) With hard persuasion check, it should be possible that we can convince Minthara to only focus on druids, with her forces still looting the camp, but letting the tielfings go to spread the word about the Absolute or just by telling her that they might be useful later in future
c) We let tieflings hide or escape during/before the siege through the tunnels
d) Make it possible for us to somehow undermine Zevlor's authority among tieflings, so that they do not listen to him anymore, supporting the option a)
e) Attack the druids together with tieflings, with some of the druids siding with us (since they aren't happy about how Kagha rules the Grove)
f) After we return from Minthara, we can tell tiefling defenders what did she order us to do, with our allies putting the traps inside, close to the gate, making barricades there, etc. Basically during siege, we open the gate, attackers rush inside, gate gets closed, which creates a trap for them
g) We agree to trick Minthara into attacking from tunnels, where she gets trapped and captured/killed during the fight


4) And time for Halsin, our favourite druid.
- When he does attack us in the camp, when we do side with "evil" drow lady, he gets bugged like her, if we knock him out (1 hp -_- and still wants to fight). There should be an option to hold him as a prisoner and in general act towards him in simliar ways to described above, although due to his character being different than Minthara, he should behave differenly, that is harder to persuade, etc.
An example of persuasion could be, that we sided with "bad guys" because:
a) We failed to find the Halsin
b) Druids didn't act too nicely towards us (looking at you, Kagha and Nettie)
c) We regret helping the goblins
d) This should be only possible if the tieflings don't die
e) We return the idol of Silvanus to him, which we found after defeating the druids
f) We show him the proof that Kagha worked with
- During our infiltration of the goblin camp, his death causes journal to update. Homever we can resurrect him, sadly game still thinks that he is dead, when it comes to quests and other characters. Same bug applies to Zevlor as well.

5) Goblin camp inflitration, attack and overall interaction, including siding with evil side:
a) Capturing Minthara, the Dror Ragzlin or Priestess Gut
b) Possibility of causing an interal war between the leaders, supporting one of them
c) Ability to become the leader of goblins yourself (after killing/capturing/"convincing" the rest)
e) Destroying the bridge leading outside, delaying the attack enough for tieflings to move out, for example by asking our ogre mercs to do it, or by using black powder barrel
f) Tricking the drow warlord into attacking false spot, again giving tieflings time to prepare
g) Causing an internal war in Druid Grove, like described above (Tieflings vs Druids), to weaken the grove
h) Tell defenders fake information about how the goblins will attack, to make defense harder and make it impossible for them to prepare.
i) Arrange the transport of "oil barrels" , with actually goblins hiding inside the barrels and helping us during the siege, when given the signal.
j) Make it possible for us to send some of attackers through tunnel to grove, if we discover it first.
k) Destroy/poison the food supplies of either Grove or Goblin Camp, forcing an early attack with weakened enemies or making defenders weaker, possibly even forcing them to move.
l) Be able to gather additional allies for attack or defense (like flaming fist/mercenaries) or for example improve the weapons on your troops, by engaging in attack on merchant wagons travelling nearby.

6) Fight when we first arrive at druid grove
- possibility of joining the goblins, who while get repelled during the attack, lead us back to goblin camp and we get treated there well, instead of the usual mocking.
- not taking either side

Currently many players do not do evil path, because there aren't enough interactions, compared to the good side, but also because of how badly goblins treat us unless we are drows. Solution above would fix the problem completely. Also, we should be given better explaination why we join the goblins, like for possiblity of controlling tadpole or learning how it works so that we can remove it later. (Since if their top leaders probably know how to create those tadpoles, they also know how to remove them)

I was affraid that this will be just another "evil bad" topic ...
But you have some great ideas ... personaly i would dare to presume that some of them are allready planed, since if you choose Bounty Hunter specialisation for your Ranger, there is specificly told that enemies restrained by this character will have it harder to escape ... yet there is no restraining option in game so far.

But there is a few things i like to coment, if you dont mind.
(Actualy i will coment them even if you do, but i would like to talk about it. :P )

I cant imagine Minthara beging for mercy ...
If you think about it, she is Drow, Lolthsworn Drow, that was probably growing in Menzoberranzan ... that, and all the threatments prisoners get in goblin camp ... should be motivation enough to rather commit suicide, than risk falling into captivity. :-/ So more than that i can imagine her swalowing some poison.

Ofcourse we should be able to ressurect her and capture her anyway, it would be hilarious as hell.

Goblins certainy should start runing, or surendering at this point ...
Maybe im wrong here, but they seem to me like fear of Minthara was the only thing that was driving them on. :-/

I dont like this to be honest.
Yes we should completely be able to treath her nicely i agree ... but she should not willigly reveal us the informations, nor offer to join us, just bcs we are nice to her. :-/ That seem out of character.
If anything, we should be able to torture our answers out of her, and even in that case she should not give them easily.

But i just cant shake the feeling that Minthara is that type that will mock you for being soft, weak, patetic, and despicable if you treath her nicely.
I can imagine that this could work, but it would require a much longer work on her ... like treath her nicely since capturing, through moonrise towers where we show her what she actualy signed to, shaken her believes, and then help her deal with that ... and even that seem a little too fast for us to gain her thrust, after all we just broke her whole world.
But concidering it as long therm, it could work.

Same comentary as abowe ... yes, i can see this as possibility, and even fiting the character ... just not so fast.
After all, even David Hasselhoff wasnt able to save everyone.

And here is the problem ... to leave where exactly?
I could imagine convincing them (with extremely hard persuation check) to repair boat and try their luck on water ... but that seem like the only option. :-/
The willage just across the first bridge is swarming with goblins and if you go the other way, you just reach the beach and its over. Also Tieflings are draging all their property with them, wagons with food, clothing and stuff ... not to mention civilians and childern. There is litteraly no way they could sneak around that goblin village.
Also note that bridge that is conecting Blighted Village to northern part of map is broken, so they even cant cross it with all their posessions.

The only another way i could imagine is persuating leader of Flaming Fist to provide them escort, once you help them save that elf from burning house.
I imagine that would also require some persuation check, since they have allready urgent business to do ... but its only fair to ask for favor, after you save her life.

Im not quite sure if that is even possible.
All we get so far is that goblins are searching some "weapon" in the groove ... no idea who, or what it should be.

But i presumed that Minthara was hunting for Tieflings at first, and finding druids is simply sideffect of her hunt.
So if that is the case, i cant imagine any way that she would let go her prey ...

On the other hand, in some other topics at this theme, i allready mentioned that i would like to see "some" Tieflings not being killed during attack.
Personaly i would like to see groove wiped out, and every armed Tiefling dead ... then civilians with kids being driven into a corner ... either in prison, or "dragon cave", or in Zevlor's cave, w/e it dont matter so much in the end ... and then Minthara let us decide their faith:
- Sell them to slavery ... either to Zhentarim, or to Underdark ... with conciderable cut for us, ofcourse.
- Sacrifice them for the absolute ... either right there, or send them to Moonrise Towers ...
- Give them to goblins, to kill/torture/eat.
- Execute them all at once personaly.
- Let them go, to spread word of what happened here ... with possibility to send goblins after them.

Simmilar problem as abowe (in persuating them to leave), they dont have anywhere to go as long as roads are swarming with goblins.

I dont see any conection between Halsin and Tieflings ...
So why this condition? O_o

This seem odd ...
Im not saing impossible, but certainly odd ... they all have their own parts of goblin army to comand, and they dont influence others at all ... their minds are even conected when close to each other. :-/
I cant see any way to make this work, that dont seem odd.

But there certainy should be more options of interacting with goblin leaders ...
Personaly i find quite anoying that you arent able to convince any other leader to join your attack on the Groove, at least with Ragzlin it should be quite easy.

I litteraly dont like this idea.
I agree it may sound awesome, but also cant shake the feeling that if would bring more problems than benefits.

How would you like to continue any story as goblin leader? :-/

This again, would cause more harm than good ... if you study your map carefully, you find out that in this zone is actualy just a few places ...
And concidering that goblins allready raided most of it, the only place where you still can send them is possibly Githyanki chreche, Toll house, Hag's swamp, and Druid groove ... whole rest of the map they allready control.
(Its kinda funny that Minthara is unable to pinpoint goove location just concidering this, there isnt so much other options. But i gues that antagonist just need to be kinda stupid. :D)

In last patch there was added deception check roll to tell minthara false spot of druid groove location, and if you sucess she only tells you that you fall for prisoners lies, since they allready raided that place.
And personaly i find it perfectly fiting whole story.

You allready can, there is even several options for that.
- when you decide to side with Zevlor, and kill Kagha you need to kill all druids, wich makes sence since even if not all druids agree with Kaghas methods and leadership ... they probably wont just look aside when some strainger attact one of them.
- when you decide to side with Kagha, and fore Zevlor out (wich leads to killing him), after next long rest druids simply finish their ritual and seal the groove (and yes that means killing every single Tiefling).
- you can also find proof that Kagha is betraying druids, and confront her ... wich can also leads to two outcomes, where on one hand is Kagha and shadow druids dead ... and on the other one only shadow druids dead and Kagha sory for all her misstakes canceling the ritual and providing tieflings all the help they may need.

This options seem quite suficient to me, what would you like to add? O_o

Well, that would require complete rework of how it works now.
And i quite like that Tieflings are preparing to attack in your absence, it makes them more alive then when would they just sit on their asses hoping that their hero will deal with everything alone.
I would not change this, since curent situation is fine. :P

But you certainly should be able to tell Minthara about secret passage, to prepare another ambush.
It would be even better if you can convince Minthara to send army to gate, where they are suppose to distract and occupy defenders ... and join you and your group within the secret passage ... and from there you either could amsbush defenders from inside, or prepare there another ambush to capture Minthara as they say "with her pants down".
And to make it absolutely brilliant, in finish you should be able to show her restrained and captured to goblins so they surender (or run).

Since using secret passage will have same result, and since you are no "suply manager" of the groove, but simply traveler, who just happened to arive there ...
I cant quite imagine how exactly you like to justify such action. O_o

There certainly is a way to poison beer in goblin camp ...
Personaly i find it quite sad that only thing you can use it actual poison ... personaly i wanted to use sleep potion with mine pacificst gameplay.

Also im not quite sure what food suply you have in druid groove.
The only thing i can think about is that boiling pot, where that old tiefling is boiling some unspecific brown possibly meaty goo.
But yeah, why not ...

I would also like to add posibility to add there some benefitial potion to on the contrary make attackers / defenders stronger. :P

Whole Flaming Fist group is retrurning to Baldur's Gate "as fast as possible" once you help them with their problem ...
Maybe if there would be some absurdly hard persuation ... but even after it sounds a bit odd. :-/

I would stick with them agreeing to escort tieflings, if they manage to join them imediatly, since that way they at least have common goal (reach Baldur's Gate as soon as possible).

Not sure what wagons you are talking about ...

I can imagine trying to convince those so called paladins of Tyr to help defend tieflings ... not quite sure how that would work, concidering they are just hunting one of them.

+1
This is certainly needed ...
Since right now, even if you manage to kill all defenders (Zevlor and Wyll included), they welcome you as their saviour. :-/

But lets be honest, it would require a lot of work ...
On the other hand, it could also quite improve game experience for Drows if there will be some story even for those who are not allowed to enter groove.

Well ... i presume you should be able to stay hidden during whole fight and not parcipiate in it at all ... yet since i allready tryed to kill defenders and i was still welcomed inside, i presume you would still be welcomed inside as "precious helper in such hard situation" right now. -_-
So definietly +1

That is something that should be kept as it is ... since that have its reason and its a good one. :P

As i allready said countless times in countless topics ...
Those things are present, they just arent specificly "told" ... wich i personaly find even better, since those are options for perceptive characters (or maybe players).

The only way i could find this to be implemented so it fits to curent situation that i honestly love ... its simple introspective comentary from narator ...
Something like when you talk to last of Goblin leaders, you sucess percetion check and narator tells you something like: "Sudently you realize that she have the same tadpole as you do, they all do. That means that they must know some way to avoid transformation ... is their Goddess powers protecting them prehaps?"
It still seem stupid, but much better that way, than if some character tells you the same. -_-

Off topic, but somebody should check if this refers to the DC for the entangling shot or whatever the spell is called and compare a Bounty Hunter Ranger to any of the other ones or something.

Not me though. I'm lazy.

In lore as far as I know, drows can and do end up getting captured. I feel like I have used the wrong word to describe it; it should look somewheat like this:
Her henchmen are dead/fleeing and she is at low health, (let's say below 35% of maximum), with enemies surrounding her. A cutscene triggers, during which she falls on her knees, visibly wounded and exhausted. You are given an option to approach her, with several options possible:
a)Finish her off
b)Give her to tieflings
c)Take her as your prisoner
Here we should be able to choose, what to tell her, for example when roleplaying lawful good -> "There will be no harm done towards you from our side", lawful evil - "Show that you are useful and you might still live"
So I just meant that she surrenders due to her inability to fight or do anything basically, not straight begging for mercy.
Minthara is shown to both value her life very highly and to be cowardly, so there is a reason why she would surrender.
As for resurrecting, certainly that should be a + in relation if player is willing to try to redeem her. If we end up killing her, I know that in Forgotten Realms characters have to agree to resurrection; so this could be tricked by forcing someone else, like a goblin mage/priest/warlock to read the scroll. After which a big suprise moment happens for Minthara.

If you get along with her well, by choosing her side, she does say that they need a "strong hand", or else they will disperse, so you are right indeed.


I based this on indication, that she is not exactly 100% loyal to the Absolute, which is given during dialogue with her in a Camp. Since Minthara can't really return back and she has enemies everywhere now, the drow might decide to do anything to improve her dire situation. It could be done in a different way, like she reveals to you only basic and unimportant information, since there is little trust towards but it improves as time goes, if you continue to act well towards her.
Just like the rest of Absolute leaders, she doesn't show an awarness of being infected by the Tadpole too, so your point with Moonrise towers is great and could give her a good reason to reconsider what is she doing and let her for example join us as a companion in act 2.

Yes, mocking our character definitely fits her, although it's shouldn't be to the point of it being ridiculous since she is not stupid and her situation isn't exactly the best. And if you continue to treat her humanely for long enough (by for example giving her normal food and drink instead of just bread and water, letting her sleep on bedroll instead of sleeping on the ground, letting her keep the equipment (except the weapon and shield obviously, bandaging her after the fight, bringing her a health potion), she should behave better.

First time, when you ask her when she is your prisoner, how is she feeling? You get a insulting response in a style of "go away and see if you aren't somewhere close to that rock nearby"
But when enough time passes and you don't stop treating her well, she will respond first neutrally, then nicely. At one point she will say, that if you let her join your squad, she will be a much more useful than just sitting here in the prisoner cage doing nothing.


It is shown if you side with her, that she is definitely someone with a huge logical possibility of redemption arc, with it starting to get going after we reach Moonrise Towers in act 1 and with act 2 letting us recruit her as a companion.


Good point, I agree.




Plenty of good interactions for roleplaying evil characters written by you; I based my thoughts before on the fact that Minthara says that she wants to get rid of worshippers of false god, and the druid grove is sanctuary of Silvanus.


Because he seems to be a good person caring for the rest and unlike Kagha he does show a soft side for Tieflings by letting them stay in the Grove.



A good dialogue could result with her getting captured there, with our hero either threatening her to cooperate with us, or simply saying that if she is going to willingly cooperate, she won't be harmed.
Either way, fully agreed.


Zevlor mentions using oil barrels as a part of defense plan and tieflings trust you in 100% when you side with them during the first attack on grove.



I remember seeing survey on reddit, with players being asked what could make them play the evil side. Suprisingly.... it was "better story reason"
The fact that me or you could see that there is a reason of siding with goblins, doesn't mean that the rest of players will see it. That's why I would like it to be better explained, it doesn't have to be said by any of the bad guys. Your way of narrator doing it is perfectly fine.

IMO both Halsin and Minthara are well written characters and just forcing us to kill them if we choose the opposite side is pretty lame.

I have checked it, there no difference so far for any kind of ranger spells or abilities, all attack chances are the same, damage is unchanged as well. There isn't even increased duration for pinned down, so I think, that it's unimplemented mechanic related to a new ability or a throwable weapon, like a net. I'm not sure if gameplay value would be improved if this would in any way interact let's say with taking prisoners, because a single failed dice roll could block us from a variety of interesting actions.

Yup ... and they strugle to their last breath, since they know better than anyone what is happening to prisoners, or slaves.

I see no need for this cutscene ... we either finish her off in regular combat, or knock her out ...
And if we knock her out, then Zevlor (and possibly Halsin) asks us after battle, what will we do with her ... then we can decide to either give her to tieflings, or druids, or keep her for oureself.

I simply dont like the idea her showing us her weakness.

This whole conversation can be just the same happening in your camp, when she is in that cage ...
After all, she have informations we could want.

And that is exactly why i would pass every relation mading decision to post-moonrise towers ...

First of all, seeing on her own eyes what is happening there could shaken her believes.
And also (as much i presume) in the end of Moonrise Towers story your character will probably be known either as blessed by the Absolute ... or destroyer of the Absolute ... so, that sounds to me like good reason for Minthara to concider you either valuable aly, or threat big enough to want to stay on your good side.

I imagine it as mocking and laughting at us for the first time ... and in time change that to lecturing us about how people need to be strong, and how our good will and hope makes us weak ... then there could be some persuation dices to show her that even in our "weakened" status we were able to defeat her ... etc. etc.
Basicly i believe that Minthara in cage is perfect opourtunity for our protagonist to lead filosofic debates abour selflessness vs. selfishness, pros and cons, etc.

Same reaction as abowe, and even more abowe.

Honestly, i hope not.
Yes, there certainly is possibility for redemption arc, and i think that would be shame (or misstake if that would be the only way) ... not everyone in world need to be redempted, no everyone want to be redempted, and since some protagonist simply are evil, they also need someone to follow them.

Anyway why so many people loves redemtion story, and we get so few coruption story?
It could be fun if in every single conversation between Minthara and Protagonist we have options to either try to redempt her, or being corupted by her ... and see where it goes. :3

Maybe ...
I know that in mine first gameplay i decided to help tieflings, and killed Kagha ... and every single other druid with her ... and truth is that Halsin forgived me, with words "you did what you had to do" ...

But anyway this condition still seem odd ...
We should be able to tell, and show "captured Halsin" all things we can no matter if we killed Tieflings or not. :-/
Even if we wipe whole groove ... we can regred that decision afterwards, especialy if we then also fail to persuate Minthara to not attack us, since in that case, we are litteraly alone.

Yeah, they were diging holes and filling them with oil barels since you left (unless you decide to return, before you tell Minthara where they are) ...

It just still seem odd ... like:
"Heya Zevlor, things just happened and i have found this 20 barrels of certainly 100% oil, dont open it even if they weight barely half of those you have ben diging all around whole afternoon ... wanna use them aswell?"

Sorry, but i cant see it right, especialy if using secret passage gets the same result without need of your "simple traveler" become bigest oil merchant in sword coast. :-/

I have not seen any survey, but i have participated in many discusions on this theme with other people here on forum ...
All i can say for sure is that some will never be satisfied. And not even Larian can please everyone. :-/

Actually it's a very good idea if you indeed manage to knock her out, fully agreed on that one. The whole chase part of the idea, could be also added there, like if we kill enough attackers and she starts to flee, after battle Zevlor approaches us and tells us basically same thing. It's even better for devs since it's 99% same dialogue with just one part differing, with first sentence differing that she wasn't captured unconscious during the battle, instead the tieflings sent after her have done that. (after all Minthara is a big fish in goblin camp, so it's a huge tactical victory to hold her as a prisoner)

As for the cutscene, I'm not sure what weakness would she be showing, when she is literally unable to fight anymore. All that she could do at this point, is to look at our character either miserably or with disgust (or even both). And at least for me, it adds a decent roleplaying moment to see the results differ, based on what we have done during the siege. After all the battle would hugely differ in result, right? If we want to be chaotic evil, well, it's obvious what we will do. At same moment, if someone wants to roleplay a lawful or just a good character (even neutral evil actually), it adds a bit of flavor to have a different options, regarding the now captured prisoner, including the first option, which would happen still in the grove, right as they capture the drow.


Same as above IMO, adds a little bit of roleplaying aspect and could affect her initial behaviour in camp (if she is disgusted with us or scared)



It is going to be a decisive point, that's for sure. Depending on how do you want to act:
- You could either make her attached to you because like I have said before, she has noone else as an ally, she can't return due to likely punishment and it's too dangerous for her to be alone
- You have shown her that the so called Absolute lied to her (as apparently the cult followers do not know about the Tadpole)
- You have destroyed the Absolute at Moonrise Towers, earning her respect or fear, depending on your interactions
- A decision by PC was made, leading to increased control over the tadpole. Again, she might be loyal out of respect or fear
Obviously how do you treat her should be a huge factor here, if she is afraid, respects/likes you, if PC tries to romance her (only possible with good attitiude and after some time) etc.


Well said!

I must say, that it makes sense for her to be redeemed, but only if player does lead her there. I agree that there should be possbility of leading her towards the darker path, after all we might for example want to do a evil-style campaign, right? The more options the better! (as long as they follow logic, obviously)
As for redemption stories being popular, it's because they are pretty emotional and usually easier to do than someone being corrupted into being evil in a way that makes sense.
Seeing simliar style of interaction for companions (slowly changing their worldview), who are full of doubt or could have their worldview easily shaken (like Lae'zel, Gale, Shadowheart) would be beyond amazing.



Yes, I can't disagree with Halsin still letting us recieve help from him. Especially if there is a genuine regret coming from our character, which he as a powerful, wise druid could easily sense. Forcing us to kill him is just lame.
As for the Minthara part, the only way to fight her at camp is to basically treat her badly, so that you are forced to do an intimidation check (as persuasion option always works, same goes for tadpole power) or to choose to fight her anyways. There should be an option to still manage the situation with less than lethal result (knockout/resurrection/whatever) so that we are given more control over how it goes. It could be an interesting roleplay option for evil characters to punish her, but still let her live and work for you. (lawful/neutral evil comes to mind). Or be nice (and evil character could still do this if player chooses it, as a manipulation tactic, feigning forgiveness). It should be much more flexible.



Fair point, after a little bit of thinking indeed the secret passage seems like a perfect solution, avoiding the problem described above. It would be probably less annoying to code and implement into game too and would give the secret passage location a little more of gameplay time.


Hmm, that is why I prefer to have more (than less) options in games for as long, as they make sense. Not only does it improve replayability and roleplaying, but also it makes more people satisfied, since we can fit a lot of playstyles. Looking at reddit and forums, many people were dis-satisfied because of lack of choice.
For example the grove siege forces a "murderhobo solution" as soon as it begins, meanwhile a smart evil character would either bait their leader into an ambush through tunnels, use the gate trick with opening it just to catch some of attackers into a trap or focus the leader. Everyone fighting to death doesn't make any sense either and it would make the battle less of a chore (AI processing times for so many characters) for them to flee if we meet the criteria.


Currently fighting inside the actual camp/grove is not so well done and serves little purpose, seeing 20 goblins take 5 min in total to do their turns, all of them approaching to those 3 tieflings who are spread apart like 30 m from each other; just to critically miss whenever possible.
And because of this simliar style of rework should be done if you attack the grove, with like mentioned before, showing the secret passage (but without it being a trap, this time).
Zevlor dying/being knocked out/etc. should impact Tieflings negatively, the battle should take place mostly on the walls, when defenders are still relatively organised, then at druid grove and optionally in the chamber ( let us choose to still spare tieflings, good reasons even for evil characters for it were given in previous posts).

It wouldn't be hard to code a morale system, with let's say that Zevlor dying takes 3 points away, one of defenders dying takes 1 points. With 12 defenders there to begin with, including the Zevlor, it would make it 14 points initially; if it falls down below 6 defenders panic and run away, if it drops below 9 they lose 1 attack and AC point; the death of their leader should have simliar effect, with both fo them stacking. Simliar approach could be done for the defending part, with Goblins and Minthara having this solution applied to them as well, with difference that capturing Minthara duing the secret tunnel Ambush could cause enough of a mayhem among the Cultists, that they flee instantly when they lose only a few of their troops.

If a certain solution is not possible, there should be a reason for this; like Wyll won't cooperate with Goblins due to his past, no matter what. Or it just doesn't make sense, like Gale can't just become a lvl 20 wizard over a single night.

"Murderhobo solution" isn't bad as an option, it's bad that we can't do anything else while attacking/defending the grove. Playing chaotic evil barbarian would make sense for it, to be like it is now, with some changes like the morale/capture etc. mechanics, but why would 1000 IQ lawful evil wizard not try to maximise his advantage? The barbarian might just mererly enjoy fighting and killing enemies, while the wizard would want winning as easily as possible. And being able to play as anyone you want, while choosing evil side would make it more appealing for players to be picked. Even the chaotic evil playstyle would benefit greatly, with another options of causing mess everywhere or following their ever changing whims.

What I personally love in Larian games is the emphasis on tactics and well thought actions with NPCs. Let us do that, especially since actions which could make it possible are already in the game. (the cage for prisoners, knocking out, resurrecting npcs, the secret passage, even in game characters tell us how important leaders for goblins and tieflings are)

Edit:Grammar

We are getting a little out od hand.
I have my serious doubts that Larian can spend so much time with every single character.

Just add some permutations and possibility to capture enemies instead of killing them would be fine.
That and allowing our characters to admit existence of secret passage.

Every time when I see the nickname «RagnarokCzD» I'm very scared. I already know this is going to be a huge discussion. xD



Well I just want to see more interaction with Kagha and the dark druids. In the game at the moment, the reasons for her actions are not explained at all and we are not allowed to stand on her side, except for the moment with the murder of a child.

I was able to even join her... didnt try tho.

Hmm, If you think about it. If people complain about not having enough options, about the siege (least of choice is present there) being too simple, all of this can be solved just with a literally few changes, which would work for both sides and would definitely reuse code, making it easier for devs to implement.
Like the situation with passage, where you can take 2 sides, but the arrival cutscene would be same no matter who you choose, simliar to how the beginning of gate attack is handled. Then, you get to decide with who to stick with.

Morale having impact during the siege would work for both ways as well, depending on who you want to support, saving time for coding while improving the gameplay and at same making sense still. Also it would relieve the players of having to fight 20000 enemies who take so much of a turn turn time currently. (so overall let's say that you need to kill 2/3 of attackers instead of all of them)
You could still choose to fight it the old way, focus the leader during the gate fight or target weaker enemies with AoE attacks so that their total numbers drop down.
Killing Zevlor/Kagha before the siege should have an effect too, besides just them not being there. The tieflings/druids wouldn't fight so well and organise themselves properly without someone guiding them.

Capturing prisoners works for no matter who you choose. Although understandably, this should be restricted to be only for more complex NPCS who have a big impact on storyline, like Kagha, Zevlor, Minthara, Halsin (with Minthara/Halsin having the biggest amount of content simply due to having big potential for storyline in next acts) Expecting to have possibility of complex interactions with literally anyone is not real. And another benefit of this system would be the possibility of what a lot of players did ask for, that is not killing Halsin when siding with Minthara and vice versa, enabling the possiblity of taking mixed choices.

Deciding what to do with tieflings also should impact the appropriate side. Kagha being dead or convinced to give up with her plan or just having no power anymore should make the defenders fight a little better, due to them seeing the hope. Or just having to deal with mostly/only druids if you want to attack and you will manage to save them in one of ways mentioned before.

I don't think that few extra cutscenes depicting for example the situations during the grove defense would harm the game in any way, or be that hard or time consuming to do, quite the opposite rather.
Like I said before, a few lines with a choice of lines (what to do, what to say to the prisoner if they are conscious, if they aren't knocked out). It would prevent forcing the player to jump down the wall if they want to not kill, but rather capture the drow leader.
Imagine, that for example you choose to focus the cleric warlord, bringing her to 1 hp (100% chance, even if she is at 5 hp and you hit for 20 damage, she still goes down to 1 hp), with animation of her being downed in a simliar way to players happens. There is not cutscene needed for it even. Then if you target her again, she dies. Obviously no npc should targer her anymore and she should not recieve any damage, unless it comes from player controller character. Whatever you do, you still see the negative effects of being de facto leaderless on attackers. (and you hear defenders cheering) If you win the grove battle because you wipe enough of the invaders out, a cutscene plays, if Minthara did survive, with Zevlor saying to you, the usual "thank you", with then asking what to do with now unable to fight or even move cleric of Absolute.
I believe that you did mention same idea, that you then choose to give her to tieflings, druids, execute, or take her as your prisoner.
If you choose the capture option, a cutscene plays with your character approaching the Minthara with his companions, with her looking at you with anger. You get the option to "mention" what kind of treatment she is likely get from you, with appropriate reaction being shown, like disgust or fear. Next, if you come back to the camp, you see her in prisoner cage with all the options mentioned before. She would take the Volo's role of stiting in the prisoner cage during the party.
The attack from the secret passage ending in capture should also get somewheat simliar cutscene. With even bigger effect on attackers, because not only they have no leader now but also their mega smart and secret plan has failed. With PC being able to have a persuasion or intimidation roll to make the "cooperation" easier. (obviously, in style of "you walk to walls or we just carry you there" and "work with us and you won't be punished").
Attackers fleeing and Minthara still being alive should still give you possibility to capture or kill her still, with defenders still catching up with her.


Resurrecting NPC's besides providing obvious additional roleplay options would help if for example they somehow die because of not our fault. When I wanted to save Halsin in the goblin camp, during the fight goblins got critical hits several times in a row on him, while he and my companions missed quite a lot despite having decent chances to hit (thanks to flanking, high attack etc.)
Halsin did not die, but having about 1/3 th of health does indicate that he can die. If you check steam forums especially, the issue isn't that rare even.
While the problem is not super common, it's still exists and it's not unreal for it to happen, since after all dice rolls define the fights. If you happen to get really unlucky, not only will you miss lots of attacks while the opposite happens for the enemies, who get lucky hits with lots of damage. This would prevent any kind of glitches causing the death of important characters having any impact as well.
Oh, I would forget how famous Wyll is being for jumping down during the first attack and dying there. Game not always handles what happens with him later properly, if you still do bring him back to life. Like, he decides to just sit in the same spot, where he died and refuses to talk.

The whole conflict is presented as a kind of a main quest, so there is no reason for it to be presented in such simple way. You could escape from Fort Joy in Divinity 2 in 29139293 ways. Think of the siege of the grove in a simliar way, a big part of a main quest, with lots of ways to overcome the problem, not just "kill all enemies who attack" or "kill every defender".

Nyloth,


Yes, I feel honestly quite simliar to you. While there is a reason given for why she works with the Shadow Druids, you can't do much if you want to support her side.
There is not enough of impact on the story, whatever happens,

RagnarokCzD,


We should be able to see the effects of those choices, like I have mentioned before. Especially in relation to the whole conflict storyline.

Its not ... but its just a start ...
You add few options to Minthara, few options to Halsin, few options to Kagha, few options to Zevlor, few options to Ragzlin, few options to Gut, few options to Volo ... and before you knowing it, you are adding hunderts of new lines.

Yeah, i dont know the outcome since patch come in my way and i didnt play it to the end ... and didnt re-play it after, since i honestly hate new casting system.
Also as far as i know, there should be another "big patch" "behind the corner" so i probably wait for that before start testing over again.

Now, with AI and a completely simulated dialogue and all that you might get more options - but there is a shitload of work put into what there is now and it really shows with each person having something unique to say - BG3 is well above and beyond other games in that manner. It isn't as fluid as with a DM there, but you just cannot get it without an intelligence designing it as you go - so for something like this you need a huge jump in AI that can speak its own words and design its own animations - and there is no indication that we are close, as a species, to making that possible in the near future.

Hmm, I didn't honestly mean an AI simulated dialogue even - most of things mentioned above could be done with simple scripts and conditions, like the siege situation, for defense:
- Is the leader of goblins incapitated or dead? Apply the debuff to bad guys and decrease the morale value.
- Is morale low enough? Make the attackers (including the leader, if able to) flee.
- Is the battle over? Minthara is dead? Standard celebrtion cutscene.
- Battle is won and the drow is still alive, but incapable of further fight or movement - the cutscene with capturing scenario is played.
- The tieflings are victorius and the leader of goblins escaped, slightly altered (1-2 lines diff lines) cutscene plays with Zevlor, with player having same choices as with scenario before.

There is no need for very complex code or big brain AI style for this. The ideas work both ways, since very well you could apply the same thing to tieflings, with them panicking if enough of them die and Zevlor's death would have quite big impact. The potential secret tunnel attack also would be done in a simliar way to how does the attack begin now - shared beginning, shared cutscene, but ability to pick the side and + a little bit of talk after, then differing final cutscene.

Gonna repeat this again too, we have the prisoner cage in camp, ability to knock out and resurrect npcs. It would not be hard to put this to use, with the effort going mostly into dialogues and conditions, as for how do we treat our prisoners. Like I said before, this option for obvious reasons should be only possible for major npcs, not for some random goblin (because mo-cap, voice acting and making good dialogue is not free).

As for the Kagha, I was talking about more storyline implications and potential rewards, making it a plausible choice for players to decide to side with her.
It's all about basically adding more conditions with new results and some cutscenes here and there.

I agree that BG3 is way above most of the games when it comes to dialogues, reactions and choices, but few parts were noticeably lacking and judging by the reactions from the past, most of people would like to have them improved. Would this be done, (including things from the previous posts) noone could say anymore that the evil side is boring/one sided/"murderhobo"/chaotic evil only. Also, many currently problematic parts, like mega long siege because 20 goblins have to take a turn until all of them are dead would stop being a such a problem, with you needing to kill let's say 3/4 of enemies, instead of all of them. While at same time, providing you with choice of tactics other than "nuke every single enemy", this applying to both sides.

Do not forget, that Larian does care a lot about their games too, adding often hidden things, that players spot rarerly, like what happens with Kniles in Divinity 2 if you teleport him in to cage; or the whole Gareth storyline, having actually plenty of possible results. Solving the major quest in only basically 3 ways - kill goblin leaders, defend the grove/attack the grove (both are "murderhobo" only) is also quite unsual. Again, take look at what you could do in Fort Joy. There is a reason why if people hear Larian, they associate it with high quality games.

The analisys with criticisim that I love.

This is well thought out and I agree. Actually, oddly, I wouldn't mind being able to capture other characters who are known to have a brain parasite or resurrect them to capture them, a makeshift jail being set up in camp. I would love playing out the consequences for knocking out and capturing that gnoll who has one for example, maybe even recruiting him or suffering cause we should have just left him dead. They seem to follow the absolute, but many of them also seem to value their lives or have valuable information. But maybe I am being hopeful and I am a proponent for unique companions like Us the Intellect Devourer, and loving filling out a camp, even with prisoners...

I would also like to destroy others tadpoles aswell ...
You know what i mean right? When you search Edwins corpse, there is tadpole crawling out of his eye.

Then you need to sucess few rolls, to finaly crush it ... funny enough you even could (not sure if that wasnt changed in curent patch) loss some approval of others, if you simply fail your diceroll and therefore tadpole escapes ... wich was ridiculous, since you have no control over that ...
But later you meet tadpoled gnoll, tadpoled tiefling, tadpoled drow, tadpoled goblin, tadpoled hopgoblin ... and if you kill them, nobody cares that their tadpoles could survive. Isnt that odd?

I agree with what you wrote! Sparing Minthar in a good playthrough is a great idea.

But I would like the option for Minthara to cooperate with the Kagha so that only the tieflings are killed. If there are shadow druids in the game, they should also have their own storyline, I want to help Minthara but Kagha looks cute too, there should be an option to make them cooperate

TheOnlyRealTav
> See? I told you that was only start.

Maybe, but it just shows us that certain storylines need more work than the rest. No matter what, we won't end up with having the problem of having to rework/touch everything. After all, there is a limited amount of important characters and even less of them who do lack something in particular. And yes, it's the "bad guys", who are affected more by this (Kagha, Goblin camp leaders).
What I disagree here with, is that touching a few aspects of the game will instantly force us to basically change everything. I don't think that it's how it works.

Conflict about the grove is for now, one of bigger questlines there, could be said to be a main quest, so we got a reason why it should be touched. No matter what side do you pick, the siege is just a "murderhobo" moment, with not much of interactivity. If you decide to support the bad guys, the siege has clearly annoying parts, like the fight inside the camp, taking forever to complete without presenting any kind of challenge. Could be solved by removing the sequence and instead moving the characters to the walls.

I don't think that there is anyone who would disagree that there isn't much that can be done to even affect the invasion itself, besides the actual fight moment (which is too simple as well).
We can't turn the sides inside each of the camp against each other, we can't try to weaken them before (no, killing druids/tieflings before the siege doesn't count), we can't influence on how the attack will proceed, even with the existance of the secret tunnel; the exception being preparing the barrels with oil.

Besides, when it comes to causes of the famous 25%/75% evil vs good storyline:
- Most of the Absolute followers being comically evil. Only Minthara has any kind of redeemable character traits among them. (but this is shown only when siding with her). Evil characters do not have to be presented as being hostile and rude to everyone and everything.
- While druids are a mixed bag of characters, the tieflings are clearly presented as "stereotypical innocents in trouble", so "neutral" roleplaying gamers are more likely to help them than the opposite side
- Good side is more complex atm, when it comes to quests and interactions. It's also waaay let's buggy.
- Siege sequence is much more annoying and straightforward when you side with the Absolute. It's not great for the Tieflings side either and I wouldn't be suprised if players would try to skip it for the later replays just by killing the goblin leaders
- There are certain moments, during which it feels as if like game developers tries to convince us to side with Tieflings anyways; like when - Halsin having to die, if we do not help his friends

Showing both sides as more morally grey might be a solution to make more players side with the goblins. The Absolute should still be more evil than the other side though.

Oh, I would forget this as well. Goblin camp IIRC turns hostile after the battle, despite none of the attackers surviving. If some of them would flee, it would make sense why the camp is not "friendly" to us anymore.

Exactly that's why I think that characters not being able to surrender, or not even trying to, makes little sense.
+1 for having more consequences of your actions with the Gnoll
Agreed about more camp companions and interactions.

Not necesarily.

Do you know this video?


Its only a joke ofcourse, but the point is ... once you let people decide, they will allways demand more.

Maybe ... but that is more problem of unimplemented reactions for knock out, than anything else.

I know you want to see some disadvantage debuff for army without the leader, but i dont see why killing part of defending group should not count ...
The game should count with it to be sure, its kinda sad that if you manage to wipe out whole groove before you even talk to Minthara, there is no way to tell her.

After Patch 4 arive, i would certainly try redeem Kagha, or free Halsin just after start the siege, just to see if they will help defending the groove or not ...

Funny how many people quote those numbers ignoring the fact that:
- Usualy people tend to "good side" and common rate is 35/65
- When people choose wich side they join, they usualy dont know rest of the story, so at least part of those numbers was completely irelevant to concidering how well was whole quest line presented.
- In many cases dices decide for you, bcs you want to persuate, intimidate, or deceive someone ... and you simply fail.

It just depend on your point of View ...
Rightfull knight in shiny armor for people is horrible murderer for goblins.

It makes sence ...
And it even makes sence if you ignore (or simply dont know, bcs you kill her before she tells you) that part where Minthara confess to you that acording to plan, you were suppose to die today.
You leaved with one of their leaders, not as her equal (even if you are allowed to think that) but as usefull aset, nothing more, nothing less ... so if you return next day after battle without her, its quite clear that she didnt survive, but you did ... so you either betray her, or failed your duty to defend her with your life.
There is litteraly no way goblins keep friendly after battle.

That's why there should be a focus on more important npcs and quests.

To be fair, yes, but also a few things like the leader/morale mechanic and little bit of choice, when it comes how to plan the battle would not hurt.

I just used the wrong word I believe, now I will correct myself. What did I mean, is that an additional way of altering the invasion, besides killing part of defenders, should be possible.
Oh yes, btw, the grove attack is absurdly bugged if you kill everyone and then go to cleric of the Absolute. They.. still try to initiate the siege, with noone being there. That's strange...

Interesting. I will try to do it myself as well.

So we still could try to fix the ratio. It's not that bad, if what you say is true, but could be better. Many people would side with Minthara if killing the Tieflings would not be required or if we could be introduced towards the goblins in a way, that would make them respect us more.
As for the side, yes, sadly until you join the drow lady and manage to finish the story, you really don't know what is going on. Giving the players a bit more of clues, could help with it.
There are few moments as well, when the game tries to tell us "how bad we are". This shouldn't be a thing.

If players will have such desire, they will be able to minimise the RNG aspect or even completely disable it in the future. Larian already considers a few solutions, source below.
https://screenrant.com/baldurs-gate-3-rng-frustrations-dnd-5e-die/

What did I mean, is that the goblin camp interaction could be a little more friendly towards the player. They should be still evil, but not so repulsive towards the PC. At this moment, only Minthara seems to have anything resembling friendly behavior, which helps a lot with humanising her. We don't get to know this though, until the very end of the quest.
Also it's pretty hard to get inside the camp as far as I know without Sazza/being drow or multiple dice rolls.
And this - "There are few moments as well, when the game tries to tell us "how bad we are". This shouldn't be a thing. ", still counts here.

That's actually pretty good explaination, made by you, about the camp going hostile post-invasion.

The problem is that, the end is clearly the best part of the entire quest-line. It gets really interesting basically during the party/talk in the camp, when we learn more about what was going and and about the drow priestess herself, with a clue of what might happen later.

Hope you mean knocking them out and using them in later conversation with Minthara about "what shall we do with prisoners" ...
Bcs that sounds like the only acceptable option IMHO.

Its an ENEMY MILLITARY CAMP ... you are not suppose to be welcomed here, you are barely tolerated, and you even should be happy about how tolerant they actualy are.

They cant welcome you with smiles, maybe except that vendor, but he welcome your coins, not you personaly.
And there is simple reason for that: If you can be any minute ordered to kill someone, you really dont want to friend him.
And if you give attention there, surely you noticed that Goblins were allready raiding whole zone around ... and their leaders plan to raid everything else soon, and whole army knows that.

I dunno what are you talking about, i knew what is going on. :-/

Its as friendly as it can get ... if anything they should be a little more suspicious.
Since once you pass the first gate, even if you passed it by killing everyone ... rest of the camp is treating you as friend, really odd. :-/

Not sure if i would use word "friendly" ...
I certainly like how Minthara is treating our character, as expendable asset she keep close as long as he stay usefull ... it nicely shows that our character happened to be here by accident, nobody was waiting for him and nobody really "need" him, but since he is allready here, there is no reason to use him to her advantage.

That is completely different situation.

Then im affraid you dont ...
- you can talk your way in (probably hardest one, especialy if you dont have Cha-based protagonist)
- you can tadpole your way in (automatic sucess)
- you can sneak around
- you can fight trough
- and as you mentioned, you can be lead inside with Sazza, or being allowed automaticly to enter if you are Drow.

Its not made by me ...
I simply quoted right words to right context, nothing more, nothing less.

I dont see either why or how is that suppose to be a problem ...
You talk, you may get info ... you dont, you dont. Simple consequences. O_o

We've listed the options above already.


They can be still acting decent enough towards potential allies, even if short-term ones. If you look at their leaders, they let you to talk to themselves (and they are mentioned to be smart), yet average goblin is somehow instantly very hostile? You could reason this as them simply being stupid, but their leaders would surerly discourage such behavior, as obtaining potential allies/recruits/followers is something that helps to win. Deciding to join the goblins during the first attack on grove could be the reason for them to treat us better, or simply having an interaction during the first dialog, when we enter the camp; that we simply show them who they should respect via strength (kinda like the Novice Crusher Goblin).





They should definitely get more "friendly" if you manage to show them, that you are stronger than they are, or just because you took their side during the conflict somehow (Sazza/first encounter)
As for being suspicious, not so sure, the average goblin is not that smart. Leaders think that you are a true soul, so again no reason for them to distrust you.
The interactions mentioned by you, are probably unfinished version of how it will be in final version. It's not logical for them to not ask for your identity multiple times (although only first time there should be a DC or we could recieve something that we show to others, that we can pass, like a ring with a signet/amulet/whatever) or to suddenly make everyone friends, because the guards at the front of the camp are dead.


I think, that we should be able to read a little more via Wisdom/Intuition checks, about their intentions. It doesn't have to be obvious, just being easier for an average player to understand.
People start the quest on both sides, just to think that "the evil side sucks for now, so I will side with the druid grove" because at the beginning indeed the evil path isn't very interesting, although luckily it does change later.




None of those options are easy or without some kind of disadvantges, except being a drow or helping Sazza.
- Multiple dice rolls for talking your way in, aren't easy and are much more likely to fail than succeed.
- Tadpoling you way will have severe story consequences later, it's already hinted. Nothing is for free.
- Sneaking is going to be mega time-consuming, will have to be well planned and also potentially involves skill checks. It's not easy either.
- FIghting your way in resulted in the camp being hostile for me, although you have mentioned that it didn't happen to you. Might be bugged, even if you have to only defeat the front-side guards, it's still harder than just selecting few options to talk or beating beginner area enemies.


Because initial interactions, or just going straight for the "good" side, results in her being shown as generic villain. You learn nothing about her past,feelings, reasoning, logic, etc. Game basically tells you to kill the Goblin leaders, encouraging to not even bother to talk, even for strategic/tactical reasons.

We could for example pretend that we side with her, by doing some side quest, just to make the drow leader start to trust us, so that we can convince her to attack from the secret tunnel, straight into our trap.

The whole knockdown/capture mechanic would also fix this problem, if we join the good side. We could still learn more about the Cleric of Absolute, while playing on let's say our first playthrough on good side. If game would show it more, that she isn't shallow, people would see possibly more of a reason to stick with side other than tieflings/druids. Sadly, for now, only players who decided to play the "evil route" actually know that the drow leader isn't boring or cartoonishly evil.

Potentially interrogating the rest of the Goblin Leaders could tell us more as well, but Dror or Priestess Gut have little reason to appear in later acts as someone important. This isn't the case for Halsin or Minthara, who should have the most interactions, if we manage to capture them. We've listed the exact actions and choices above already.
Additionally Halsin, is since the beginning is shown to be someone interesting. Lots of characters tell us about him, his powers, abilities, skills etc. Even his initial dialogue reveals more about him, presenting him as someone worth of respect.

Edit: One good way to justify our player character gaining the respect of Goblins (enough respect to enter the camp and be treated a little better) could be, due to us obtaining the Symbol of Absolute, which the members of cult would carry with themselves. It could be looted in dead bodies of cultists, given during the first interaction between goblins and tieflings, obtained via persuasion at the gate, when talking with guards or we could simply force one of guards at the front gate to give it to us, via Intimidation check.

Seeing how big this thread has become (and full of long posts), finding the most valuable feedback has started to become a problem. After a little bit of further play-testing, reflections and reading through all the posts, I decided to make a summary of ideas given by all users in this thread (with added additional parts, for example bug reports), so that any future reader, dev or forum user, can easily read the most important parts of the thread, without spending half a day to read it all. After all, focused and well sorted feedback is the most valuable one. This will make further discussion easier as well, due to highlighting what parts of the game, related to the topic of this thread, were talked about the most.

1) The first fight with goblins upon reaching the druid grove.
Problem: As soon as we approach the druid grove, a fight breaks out between goblins and tieflings. We can't wait it out, we can't decide to join the goblins either.
Solution: Allowing the player to choose sides could create a good opportunity for the PC to initiate the "evil path" without requiring multiple dialogues + checks later (or saving Sazza/being drow), when entering the goblin camp. It would also lessen the feeling of players being directed by the game to side with Druids/Tieflings.
When siding with Goblins, during the fight, we should be still able to enter the Grove without a major fight happening. The only people who could recognize us, are Zevlor, Wyll and one of guards at the gate. Persuasion/Intimidation check should let us avoid the fight with those characters.

Problem: Wyll dies when jumping down during the encounter.
Solution: He can't die, instead he is reduced to 1 hp whenever someone deals the "finishing blow". A second hit, when he is unable to fight, only from player, can finish him off.

2)Siege of the grove and camp celebration

BOTH SIDES

Problem: Currently, the siege on both sides isn't the most interesting combat in the game, because:
a) It's long due to big amount of combatants
b) We can't influence it much
c) Little outcomes exist except wiping out the enemies

Solution:
- Possibility of convincing the leader of Goblins to use the secret tunnel, resulting in different scenario of attack. Cutscene should appear at the start, with PC deciding which side to take. The attackers should divide into 2 groups, one coming from the tunnels and one from the side of the gate.
- Leader of the opposing force dying/being knocked out/incapitated should affect their soldiers negatively.
- Killing enough enemies should not only affect the combat effectivness of the particular side, but also if enough combatants die, the rest should flee.
- During the fight, Minthara and Zevlor should be brought down to 1 hp first, instead of being outright killed. Only player should be able to finish them off for good. Scroll of revieve/resurrection should still be able to bring them back though.

SIDE OF THE ABSOLUTE - SIEGE

Problem: Bugs
a) Escorting Sazza to Minthara and letting her die afterwards, can completely block the quest from progressing. None of usual methods of initiating the fight work. (no cutscene at gate triggers, Zevlor says nothing, using the horn doesn't work)
b) Betraying Wyll during the interaction with the drow, results in him fleeing to the druids to warn them. Homever, this causes the attack to be completely bugged:
- TIeflings in hideout are not affected by the fear effect and fight us normally. There is no help from Minthara and goblins either.
- After the battle on the walls and inside the camp is over, Drow warlord is stuck in the camp area, refusing to go anywhere and repeating the same voiceline when talked to.
- Druids hide inside the caves, with the normal entrance being locked. We can still go around and arrive from the library via secret tunnel, but even if all druids die, the questlog fails to update and the leader of Goblins still insists that there is someone left.
- Wyll is missing in the grove and even if you kill all the Tieflings and Druids, quest is still stuck, with the drow still saying that someone is left alive.
This might be caused by Wyll being counted among defenders, but not being there.

Problem:Not enough options are present
Solution:
a)Another quest from Minthara before attacking should be present. The questline ends too quickly compared to the "good" side.
b)There aren't enough possible outcomes for tieflings. Solutions mentioned in this thread include:
- Sell them to slavery ... either to Zhentarim, or to Underdark
- Sacrifice them for the Absolute ... either right there, or send them to Moonrise Towers
- Give them to goblins
- Let them go, to spread word of what happened here ... with possibility to send goblins after them.
c)We should be able to weaken the druid grove by playing on the conflict between Druid Kagha and Zevlor. A way to make them fight between each other should exist, like showing the tieflings that Kagha works for Shadow druids, which would result in her + few of druids (not all) fighting against Zevlor, us and tieflings + druids loyal to Halsin.
d)Zevlor, Kagha, Halsin should be possible to capture.
e) Fight in the camp is too long, because of amount of fighters and distances. Some of the combatants cause next to no damage (goblins with barrels) while still pro-longing the turn time.
This could be solved by moving all the tiefling defenders from this area, to the walls and completely skipping this part.

SIDE OF THE ABSOLUTE - CAMP CELEBRATION

Problem:Bugs/Unintended behavior
Talking to Minthara after the battle, still at the grove and knocking her out glitches the whole final part of the quest. If we return back from the camp, after a long rest, she talks to us as if nothing happened, telling us that she will visit our camp. Homever, returning to camp doesn't start the celebrations. Nothing happens, except for Halsin attacking us.

If we happen to fight the drow lady, after the camp celebration and knock her out, no matter the previous treatment (if we were nice to her, or not) and we return to camp after the long rest, she is initiating the fight with 1 hp. Even if we knock her out again + come back after another long rest. It makes no sense.
We should be able to capture her afterwards or decide to patch her up. (if we treated her well and failed the 5 DC persuasion check)
Both could happen as well at same time.

Exact same problem happens with Halsin, when he attacks us. We can cause infinite amount of fights with him being 1 hp at the start.
Could be easily solved by a dialog happening between him and us, with a possibility to not kill him and via persuasion still gain the help (although the degree should be lesser, compared to the "good side"). He should be possible to capture here as well, if fight happens.

SIDE OF THE TIEFLINGS - SIEGE

Problem: Same as above, not enough interactions.
Solution:
a) When Minthara talks to us about the Gate, we could report this to Zevlor, to use it as a trap. When the attack starts, we should "open the gate", although this time to help the defenders. What happens after is that goblins charge inside and then, gate gets closed, cutting them off from the rest of attackers (for some time at least) resulting in tactical advantage.
b) If we happen to capture the Minthara during the battle inside the tunnels, we could bring her as a prisoner straight to the walls to make the Goblins flee.

Problem: Outcomes of the battle being different, instead of just killing all the enemies.
a) Minthara is knocked out, battle ends. Zevlor talks to us, what to do with new prisoner.
The options should include:
- Giving her to druids/tieflings
- Finishing her off
- Taking her as a prisoner
b) Minthara is dead, battle is over. Current version of cutscene is started.
c) Minthara is unable to fight, due to being too wounded and exhausted, but still conscious + fight is over. First, we can approach her, to ask a few questions and possibly foreshadow our intentions, then cutscene with Zevlor discussing with us about what to do with drow starts. Or we just finish her off.
d) Attackers flee, the Drow warlord is at full health. Tries to escape, ends up being captured. Altered cutscene with Zevlor plays.
e) The Cleric of Absolute is surrounded by the enemies and the rest of her soldiers flee. She tries to make the last stand. Player should be given the possiblity to persuade her to surrender, promising no harm etc. Otherwise she fights until the moment of not being able to fight anymore (1 hp). PC gets to decide to do with warlord afterwards.

3) Kagha and Shadow druids
Possibility to side with her, beyond just sealing the grove should be a thing. Like doing a quest or two. Expanding the questline would be great.

4)Goblin Camp and evil path
Problem: It's very hard to get inside without being a drow or helping Sazza.
Solution:
Siding with goblins during the first grove fight should let us obtain Symbol of the Absolute, carried by all of the cultists, essentially acting as a proof that we are one of them. Same symbol should be possible to loot from one of Goblins, obtained via persuasion/intimidation from the guards at first gate, or we could just force the guards to give it to us via strength, simliar to how we convince the Novice Crusher to listen to us.
This would solve the need for multiple DC due to numerous guards asking for our identity.

Problem: Even though it is expected that the leaders compete for power inside the camp, this isn't clearly shown.
Solution: A possiblity to make a little civil war among the Goblin Leaders.

Problem: The evil questline is too short and we are told too little about it, until the very end.
Solution: Adding a bit of mind-reading checks here and there, adding a few quests in the Goblin Camp area, with some being restricted only to evil path.
This is especially visible when looking at how often we are told, almost straight from the start, how powerful Halsin is, who is he, what abilities he has etc. The lack of simliar narration for the "bad guys" is a little disappointing.

Problem: Game puts a pressure on us, to side with tieflings, or straight tells us "how bad we are now", like what happens with Volo in the camp during the celebration, or the fact that we are handed down the broken lute belonging to Alfira previously. This results in deterring effect towards undecided players.

On top of this, both Priestess Gut and the Dror should be possible to capture, giving us more information about the Absolute.

5) Important characters (Kagha, Zevlor, Halsin, Dror, Priestess Gut, Minthara) should feature additional possibilites, such as:
a) resurrecting, either as an ally (if for example Halsin dies during the escape fight), or just so that we can capture them afterwards
b) capture for interrogation and in case of Minthara and Halsin, convincing them to join our side (not instantly obviously)
Our interactions with prisoners should be varied, in terms of how well we treat them. Especially the 2 most important npcs in act 1, who show a good potential for next acts - Minthara and Halsin.
A good treatment (such as being given a bedroll inside the prison cage, normal food instead of bread and water, etc.) could give an opportunity to recruit them later as a companions (and if player wishes to) even romance. It would be interesting too, seeing how we can either redeem/drag them towards the darkness.

6) Various other improvements
- Knockout and resurrection being properly registered by the game in the journal. Currently game thinks that characters are dead, or doesn't register that they were defeated via knockout.

After introducing the solutions above, a few common player complaints/issues would be solved:
- Evil side is too short/not fleshed out enough/chaotic evil only/"murderhobo"/makes no sense
- There would be no requirement for the Halsin or Minthara to be dead, if siding with the opposing side. Both are very popular and well liked characters and lots of people asked for them to be companions. They can still behave differently in later acts, depending on what side did we take and how did we treat them.
- The replayability would increase by a huge degree. You could roleplay as basically every alignment thanks to those adjustements.
- Siege would be more interesting and also slightly faster.
- NPC dying due to unfortunate consequences wouldn't force a quick-load anymore.
- Being forced to kill tieflings no matter what won't be a thing

Big thanks for everyone who decided to contribute by posting here, especially RagnarokCzD.

We can hope that someone at Larian will read this and hopefully consider implementing some of the ideas, given by forum users here. (Especially considering that we have the knockout and resurrection mechanic already present in game, same goes for the prisoner cage in our camp).

@Theonlyrealtav Excellent points and I fully agree with you on them

Just wanted to add another suggestion for more opportunities:

When druids become available as characters, provide them the opportunity to challenge Kagha for leadership and take over the druid grove.
As tradition allows, any druid may challenge a higher ranking member of the druidship for their position.
This is, for example, the tradional way becoming an archdruid.

So, we could get some benefits later in the story from this, such as let's say being able to request the help of druids, in case of need? Like with ogres? Or we meet some of them later during the adventure?
What would be the reaction of Halsin and what would PC have to do with him afterwards?
Interesting idea still; I'm not sure how it could be implemented though.
I would like to hear more from you, about how the entire interaction would play out.

Thanks! I honestly did not expect that this thread could actually become pretty big. I still forgot to write the reasoning for each of the points in full detail, like why Goblins should flee at specific point of the Siege or why Minthara wouldn't really risk her life. I will do it later, at some point, no time for it right now .

Now, after having tested some things in Patch 4, strange behavior with the camp interactions still continues.
After finishing the siege; I decided to knock out Minthara just to check what is going to happen.

When we return to the camp, Halsin attacks us, I knocked him out too just to see what happens then.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2413327238

As we go to the camp and rest, Drow regains the awarness. She doesn't want to talk without us compensating for what has happened in some way:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2413329115

After improving our reputation, we are talking as if nothing happened. Usual cutscene happens, with party gaining 200 xp for completed quest.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2413327040

We are invited to the camp party, problem is that... nothing happens.
But one thing did change - Halsin is missing now.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2413326921

View from different angle:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2413327609

But when we return back, after the night Minthara is still sitting in the same spot as before, still talking about the celebration that is supposed to happen.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2413332383

As we can see, the whole interaction is still bugged and inconsistent.
While it makes sense (somehow) that we can be "forgiven" for the whole knockout thing, if we compensate for it and for Halsin to just go away (the bug with infinite fight is not happening anymore)
It absolutely makes no sense for the camp celebration to not happen and for the quest to get stuck like that.
After the fight with Halsin is done and he is knocked out, we should be given an option to capture him, because as PC we might be interested in learning what does he know, he is a powerful healer after all, right? It does make sense though that if we do nothing, he just leaves. I hope that we can meet him later during the game, just to have the consequences of our choices.
I'm pretty sure too that Minthara would want a few words at least, besides compensation in gold/items for our mis-behavior.

Now, what happens if you knock out Minthara after the party celebration fight?
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2413346041

Journal says that she is dead...
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2413346146

And yes, she is still in your camp, ready to fight. This can repeat every night if we spam knockout.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2413346254

There should be option to either capture her, or actually treat her well, if we want to, for example by patching her wounds, since the fight can happen if we fail the ridiculously easy persuasion check, even if PC doesn't want to harm the Absolute Cleric. (not that those 2 things are in total opposition to each other, after all you don't have to mistreat your prisoners). She does have a good knowledge about the Absolute and that could be useful for PC.

Now, I was wondering if we can persuade/intimidate (we destroyed the grove so we can handle him as well?) Halsin (with a tough check) or even use tadpole power to calm him down, after destroying the grove.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2413336110
He fights still no matter what option do we choose and the 2 options mentioned above are sadly not present in the game.
And that doesn't make sense because we can almost completely wipe out the grove while siding with tieflings, leave barerly anyone alive, kill the druids and IIRC (please correct me If I remember it wrong) Halsin says that it's still okay.

Certainly, it does make sense to have 2 of those characters to be possible prisoners of the PC, just based on the information that they can tell us. They feature a good potential as a Companions in future acts and limiting them only to 1 side makes little sense.

I've explained above why in my opinion it makes little sense to be forced to kill Halsin. Now, as for Minthara:
Taken from:
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=91336&Number=755091#Post755091

That is why she certainly should surrender if given the choice. It's strange that she fights to death, when what she does and says in other parts of the game rather tell us that she isn't going to do this.

She has tadpole just like the PC and our companions, but is completely unaware of it. That could lead to a interesting questline where the drow is actually wanting to take revenge on the Absolute for betraying her (by omitting the fact of having the tadpole), it could happen either if we spare her on the good playthrough or we take the side of Goblins in Act 1.

There is a lot of potential for Roleplaying here, I hope that it won't be wasted. Plenty of options for it to be improved were said in this thread before.

Edit: I've missed this before - I'm so glad that finally Goblins with Barrels do not engage in the battle inside the grove!
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2413336816
It certainly was one of more annoying parts of it to see them constantly miss with their fists and if even they hit someone, the damage was mega low.