Larian Studios
As a trans nonbinary player, I'd really like to have the option of being addressed by other characters with they/them pronouns and not be misgendered. Basically, I'd like the option to immerse myself in my own character and hearing she/her or he/him immediately yanks me out of the game for a bit. The ability to select your pronouns in the character creator would be a welcome addition.

Given that a player can choose from any voice regardless of appearance or make female characters with fabulous facial hair, it seems like an option that should naturally be offered. Not to mention that you can already choose who you're attracted to and be as straight, bi, or gay as you want, so this game is already inclusive of some queer identities. I'm not even asking for non-binary npcs or lore or any in game exploration of gender (though I certainly wouldn't complain if a nonbinary or genderless npc were to cross my path). I just want to play a character that's immersive for someone like me.

Wizards of The Coast has also stated they want to make more of an effort to include trans and nonbinary players and this would be a HUGE step in the right direction that would make a world of difference to a lot of people (I know this is Larian Studios, not Wizards, but it IS their IP and uses the mechanics, races, lore, etc from DND5e). If I can play a nonbinary warlock halfling in DND5e, I would like to be able to do so in Baldur's gate 3 as well.


It's becoming more and more common for people to come out as nonbinary as social acceptance increases and more game development studios are beginning to include the option. Supergiant Games had a nonbinary god in Hades and allowed you to choose your pronouns in their previous title Pyre for example, which I just bought for that reason alone. Times are changing and nonbinary people buy and play video games too. We deserve to see ourselves in video games as much as any man or woman. For a long time, it was incredibly rare to be able to play as a girl in games too, but look where we are now ^^

Before people come after me about this, remember that a, this is a suggestion. B, Most of you have a veritable smorgasboard of games to choose from and see yourselves represented and c, it's not something that would be forced on anyone, but for trans non-binary players like myself simply having the option would make a world of difference for us and our gameplay experience, not to mention our overall mental health.

Some people experience tremendous dysphoria (think opposite of euphoria) when their characters are addressed with the wrong pronouns. I've actually had to set down games where it's a self insert type of MC and my character get misgendered too often because continuing to play worsens my dysphoria and depression. I know this echoes the experience of a lot of trans gamers.

I feel having the option is especially important in a title like this where one of the main selling points of the game is that you can play the type of character you want and choose from a wide variety of different playstyles and backgrounds. I know at least 3 other enbies who have their eye on this game, but are waiting for the full release before purchasing. On that note, having more diversity in body types would be a welcome change as well. Fat, slender, buff, younger, older, scars, etc.

There's not too many cutscenes where you get addressed with pronouns at all thus far, so I'm hoping this would be a relatively simple change to implement before the game gets too much further along in development and would require more changes. Even if it wasn't implemented til the game was nearly ready for full release, I feel it would be easier to design later if devs keep it in mind early on. I know it would require a few rerecorded lines from voice actors and changing pronouns in subtitles, but it wouldn't require any additonal animations or character models and it would be a huge selling point for nonbinary gamers like myself, so the extra work would pay for itself.

I hope Larian Devs at least read this and give it some serious consideration as it seems like they've been doing with the feedback. They're a great studio with a passionate team and a small change like this would mean the world to nonbinary people. Larian Studios has a real opportunity here to make a meaningful and positive impact on the lives of a significant chunk of their players and increase the audience who will even pick up the game in the first place that I'd hate to see them pass up.

If you're a cisgender ally and want to support trans people, echoing this suggestion really helps us to be seen and heard for consideration. I hope the more people speak up and ask for the option, the more likely it is for the devs to see it.



P.S. I'm not interested in a debate about the validity of trans people's gender or desire to be represented in games. DO NOT HARASS ME OVER THIS. If I see people start in with whining about "political correctness" or screeching that SJWs are ruining their video games by wanting an OPTION to be included, I will hit that block button so fast. I've seen a lot of thinly veiled transphobia and dogpiling of the few other people who've made the pronouns suggestion and I'm honestly pretty scared to make this post as it is.

If you disagree that people like me deserve to be included in video games, I can't and won't bother attempting to change your mind, but please take a deep breath and hit the back button. I'm not attacking anyone, demanding anything or looking for a fight
Seconded! It might require a bit of fine-tweaking for the translations, but that's not an expensive change to make.
I'm completely confident and firm in my binary gender identity and I concur that a they/them address would be a good addition.
Yay! I knew I wasn't the only one who feels this way, but it still feels great to hear ^^ I hope Larian goes for it. I noticed several of the writers have pronouns in their bios so hopefully they'll be open to it. There's really no reason not to implement it
Originally Posted by TheBlueFaery
Yay! I knew I wasn't the only one who feels this way, but it still feels great to hear ^^ I hope Larian goes for it. I noticed several of the writers have pronouns in their bios so hopefully they'll be open to it. There's really no reason not to implement it

The only reason I can think of is translation problems, but if fricking Disney Star Wars is finding a way to implement that in the Spanish translations of their books, Larian surely can overcome that "hurdle" hehe
This isn't a franchise set as a social image though. It is an established franchise of fantasy. The whole pronoun thing is a social construct not everyone wants to deal with in an escapest fantasy. You can believe whatever you want but thats the truth. It also does not bode well to open with threatening to default to an echo chamber.

You can block me if you want, but I'm against this and I'm not afraid to say so. I'm not with the social media or politics in general from any country. I came into bg3 for pure fantasy. Like it or not you are asking for politics. Just like as a black man I don't ask to be acknowledged specifically as such. It is unnecessary.

Times don't change. People just pick up whatever off the side of the road and hope it gives them more control.

I think Larian should play it safe and stick to pure fantasy without politics.
Hmm, I only remember one or two moments where they refer to our gender? So I am not sure how easy or hard this would be to implement, if I am honest I tend to prefer when a game doesn't care at all and just refers to the main character in a gender neutral manner and that is generally easier to implement I think? But I wouldn't mind choices being added to character creation even if I end up not using them.
And I am not sure this is all that political as it is just character creation options, and in a fantasy setting where magic can be used to manipulate one's sex or appearance, gender likely could be looser.
Originally Posted by Aishaddai
This isn't a franchise set as a social image though. It is an established franchise of fantasy. The whole pronoun thing is a social construct not everyone wants to deal with in an escapest fantasy. You can believe whatever you want but thats the truth. It also does not bode well to open with threatening to default to an echo chamber.

You can block me if you want, but I'm against this and I'm not afraid to say so. I'm not with the social media or politics in general from any country. I came into bg3 for pure fantasy. Like it or not you are asking for politics. Just like as a black man I don't ask to be acknowledged specifically as such. It is unnecessary.

The BG3 equivalent to being a black in America is being a Tiefling on the Sword Coast. What does it cost you to let people self identify in their fantasies?
Opening with your first paragraphs in bold print, and making multiple denouncements against the reader as "you" (Did you just presume my gender? Yes, in fact you just did.) and as intrinsically other to yourself are not good ways to communicate with an audience. It makes you come off as aggressive and demanding, and more than a little bit immature when you add to it by threatening to block commenters that feel contrary to your viewpoint, and insisting that only people who agree with you should comment at all.

Block me if you like, but please read that bit first.

Nb-identifying individuals are not visible on sight, despite the way several high-profile streamers of D&d content seem to be in the mind to portray. I find it incredibly jarring and immersion destroying when, for example, the party approaches a brand new NPC that they've never met before, described at a distance with neutral pronouns, and the party all, in universe, just start addressing them with those neutral pronouns as though they can all see it and know it telepathically. THAT's immersion-breaking... especially when they do this just specifically for the pre-flagged Nb characters, and not for anyone else; they don't treat everyone as neutral until informed otherwise - they just somehow 'know' that these very specifically individuals are. It would be just as immersion-shattering in this video game as it would be anywhere else, for all brand new NPCs that you met to automatically and telepathically know your preference and reference you as such from the get go. There is no practical way to implement this option that will not be more immersion-breaking than not having it at all.


If you get upset by someone making a mistake about you, to the point that you have to expend energy and effort to ensure that it never happens around you, and that you need to nope out of media where it happens... that is personal. That is on you. Get your mind and spirit to a healthier position before attempting to change the world around you.

Now, like it or not, this is politics: maybe a time will come in our world where it is not considered so any more, but right now, it is, and Larian have already made it clear that they don't want political discussions of this nature on their forum, so I am not going to get into this any further.
Transphobia is not an opposing viewpoint and social acceptance of marginalized genders is a civil rights issue, not "politics." It's no more political than being antiracist and saying Black Lives Matter is politics or being in favor of gay Marriage and against homophobia is politics. Misgendering is actually a crime in Canada and legallly qualifies as harassment and discrimination in US Workplaces and Schools. You're only proving the need for my disclaimer at the end. Also, once again, this mechanic would be completely optional. If it's immersion breaking for you, don't use it. But remember this is a fantasy setting in an entirely different world. It's also not uncommon for people to address those whose gender is unknown with they/them pronouns. People do it all the time without realizing.

For trans people, being misgendered is far more immersion breaking and compounds the trauma they face.

It was a long post and I knew not everyone was going to read through everything, so I highlighted some of the key points I was trying to make first. Not sure how that's agressive. Also, the only people who would be upset by my last comment are transphobes and people engaging in harassment or openly against including trans people. I don't have the mental or emotional energy nor obligation to sit here and debate my existence with you and if you find that aggressive and immature then I'm sorry, but it's not my problem. I merely stated my boundaries and explained that I would use the block button in order to keep myself safe and emotionally okay. Blocking other users is a safety measure, not a threat.

The only reason anyone would be upset by a completely optional mechanic to include a specific population of people and let them be themselves is transphobia and that is not a problem I can or need to help anyone fix.
I'm already feeling emotionally exhausted and unsafe, so I'm probably going to stop responding after this, but before I do, I just want to give a huge thank you those who commented and showed their support for a small change that could make a world of difference for a deeply vulnerable population of people. I'm glad I posted in spite of my fear and knowing full well some people would take umbrage with the idea of a game welcoming people like me.

I also agree about the translation thing. It might be a bit tricky, but it can definitely still work...
I know that even though the Royal Spanish Academy still refuses to recognize "Elle" as an official gender neutral pronoun, that doesn't stop non-binary Spanish Speakers from using it and it's becoming increasingly common. You can also make forms of group address neutral by switching the ending from an "a" or an "o" to an "e." For example, "amigos" or "amigas" meaning friends would become "amiges." Trying to learn Spanish myself and my Spanish speaking friends wanted to know how to address me and some fellow NBs gave me some great advice. Absolute worst case scenario, a few languages having gender neutral pronouns would still be better than none at all.

Last couple points here, I don't get upset with people making mistakes about me, but I do get upset when I politely correct them and they continue to insist my identity is whatever they feel like based on what's most convenient for them no matter how much it hurts me or the trauma it inflicts. That's a society issue, not a me issue and one that increased representation can help to address. And it's a fact that the more marginalized a population is, the less physically and emotionally healthy that population is overall. When society changes to become safer and more accepting, their health and wellbeing improves. Not the other way around. And the only way to get there as a society is to push for these changes. As I said this is a request for a game feature and that last paragraph was specifically to avoid a debate mired in transphobia. And we're talking about a video game in a fantasy setting, the characters won't make mistakes with my pronouns if the devs decide not to write them that way.

Gender is not a social construct. If it was, I would not be trans and there would be no issues. The gender binary is and it has it's roots in Christianity and colonialism. Non-binary people have existed for thousands of years in culture's across the word and still do. From two spirit Native Americans to the Hijra in India

If you don't want to see they/them pronouns in your playthrough, simply don't use them. It may not happen anyway, but I'm perfectly allowed to make the request. Me asking for a feature to increase immersion for and include an entire population of people is not inherently political. Just because I have an opinion that some people may vehemently disagree with, also doesn't mean I'm being political. It's no more political than Larian Studio Writers including pronouns in their bios. My desire for and request for the bare minimum representation is just as real and valid as female gamers, or other queer people or BIPOC wanting more representation in video games.
Originally Posted by FuryouMiko
I'm completely confident and firm in my binary gender identity and I concur that a they/them address would be a good addition.

You think an Ogre, or Goblin, or Mindflayer, are going to double check before they try and kill you, or are they going to say 'get him'.

Do you think if one is misidentified by an evil NPC that you are attempting to trick, that you are going to have your character correct them 'actually its they/them'.

??
Originally Posted by FuryouMiko
Originally Posted by Aishaddai
This isn't a franchise set as a social image though. It is an established franchise of fantasy. The whole pronoun thing is a social construct not everyone wants to deal with in an escapest fantasy. You can believe whatever you want but thats the truth. It also does not bode well to open with threatening to default to an echo chamber.

You can block me if you want, but I'm against this and I'm not afraid to say so. I'm not with the social media or politics in general from any country. I came into bg3 for pure fantasy. Like it or not you are asking for politics. Just like as a black man I don't ask to be acknowledged specifically as such. It is unnecessary.

The BG3 equivalent to being a black in America is being a Tiefling on the Sword Coast. What does it cost you to let people self identify in their fantasies?

What? So you literally just did what Larian and Wotc are trying to avoid. You associated black people with hellspawn. Seriously shame on you. You can't even speak respectfully without politics. Now imagine this on a PR scale.

You are already destroying an echo system. Its a fantasy game. Unbelievable.
Tiefling's are black people? I thought the argument (that is a joke btw) is that it's Orcs that are black people? Tielfings for some reason were claimed by LGBT for some reason, instead of you know, just accepting that this is a FANTASY GAME AND NOT REAL LIFE.
Originally Posted by Scribe
Originally Posted by FuryouMiko
I'm completely confident and firm in my binary gender identity and I concur that a they/them address would be a good addition.

You think an Ogre, or Goblin, or Mindflayer, are going to double check before they try and kill you, or are they going to say 'get him'.

Do you think if one is misidentified by an evil NPC that you are attempting to trick, that you are going to have your character correct them 'actually its they/them'.

??


Solution is simple, just write the dialog to be "Get 'em." Once again, if it bother's you to use they/them pronouns in your playthrough, don't use them...
Originally Posted by TheBlueFaery
Originally Posted by Scribe
Originally Posted by FuryouMiko
I'm completely confident and firm in my binary gender identity and I concur that a they/them address would be a good addition.

You think an Ogre, or Goblin, or Mindflayer, are going to double check before they try and kill you, or are they going to say 'get him'.

Do you think if one is misidentified by an evil NPC that you are attempting to trick, that you are going to have your character correct them 'actually its they/them'.

??


Solution is simple, just write the dialog to be "Get 'em." Once again, if it bother's you to use they/them pronouns in your playthrough, don't use them...

That absolutely would be a good solution. In fact I would say thats the most appropriate solution, simply erase any mention of biological sex from the game.
I see several issues here. In my current playthrough I am a Female Drow Ranger, building a relationship with a certain female cleric. In real life I am neither female nor drow, nor am I involved with a member of the same sex (not a ranger either, but that isn't relevant.) If I want to be gender neutral in my mind, I can be - but I recognize that from the "image" I present, my voice, hair style, mode of dress and such, I will appear to be SOMETHING. that something may very well not be what I think myself to be, but I have no control over what another character perceives.

This is a game - certain features of your character may be obvious, and under a players control in any game - name, appearance, voice and such. Certain other characteristics, sexual identification and preference among them, will NOT be obvious. They are still under your control to the extent possible. You can embark on a relationship with whichever character you want, you can THINK of yourself in any fashion you want. But you still cannot control how others perceive you.

Even in the real world, you are dealing from a situation in which humankind has considered itself to be a binary race for thousands of years - male and female (leaving aside the statistically rare exceptions born with either no sex organs or both sets of sex organs). Genetically, a person is either predominately male or female. There 's no "other". If you are born male, and wish to consider yourself female, that's fine by me - but someone just meeting you will still classify you based upon observable criterion - appearance, voice, dress, mannerisms.

In most cases, when speaking TO you, someone will generally NOT be using genderized terms - such terms are used when talking ABOUT you, not directly to you. The exception being upon introduction, when someone might for instance refer to you as "maam" at which time you might correct them. And the reality is, in the real world, the person you correct might just not give a damn. In game land, If you think an Orc is going to get into an ethical conversation with you over your binary status choice, you are likely sadly mistaken. Said Orc does not give a rats ass what you are - other than enemy or friend, or maybe dinner. Of course, Larian COULD give you the option to demand said Orc refer to you as you want, and when Mr. Orc laughs at you and starts looking up cookbook options, provide you the opportunity to scorch said Orc's ass with a flame arrow, then calmly ask Mr. Orc to reconsider, but I think that will be a stretch on their resources.
One thing they might try, which I haven't seen done yet in a popular game, would be to present a character creator with 3 choices at the initial prompt. Typically there are only 2 in every RPG I can think of, and the gender choice determines which cosmetic features for the avatar are then presented. But it could easily be 3. This wouldn't be particularly difficult from a design standpoint, though it would perhaps open up Larian to a certain amount of predictable blowback. It also means they couldn't use the easy out of 'well, we're just doing this how other games have done it.' Instead of parsing it out overmuch, selecting the third option would just provide the cosmetic features of both without blanking half of them out.

D&D did away with gender as anything other than cosmetic pretty early on, and BG1 even stated as much in the first prompt of the character creation menu to remind everyone that the choice would make zero difference to the gameplay. Disentangling the voice selection has also already been done. Same deal with beards and makeup and other stuff that might get boxed one way or the other. With a third option in the character creation menu, the pronoun thing would be pretty easy to accommodate, just one more field before the character naming part.

No reason I can see why they shouldn't be able to do this, though I think it would be simplest to implement from an initial prompt, just from an organizational standpoint.

Right now the character creation menu still feels haphazardly organized to me. I prefer a step by step build with a vertical/sequential layout like the prior BG games, rather than horizontal tabs of BG3 where you can jump back and forth. I also don't like how the current character creator starts throwing default models at us before we've made any decisions. So the first person I see is always the same High Elf with the same head. If doing that, at least randomize it. Though I'd rather it just be blank until the player starts their input
@TheBlueFaery yeah gender is not a social construct. The pronouns are. You are born either male or female. Trans literally means transformation as in you physically and chemically changed your body through a medical procedure. You can believe whatever you want, but biology and anatomy is very clear. Also don't equate spirits and religion to your social construct. I am no stranger to religion, spiritual history, mysticism, and cultural history. You are really barking up the wrong tree and I'll leave it at that. What a predictable topic. Insulted twice now first black people are hellspawn and now religion and spirituality is now trans inclusive against all evidence to the contrary historically. Religion and spirituality of all things. Bet mods will still go after me too. I'm out. No good will come of this.
One more thought before the thread implodes like a neutron star, but "Two Spirit" concept would be an ideal way to term it. I think it just has a better ring for a D&D game than other comparable terms. There might be some criticism of that too, but probably insulated by the "hey, at least we tried" argument. Plus dungeons and dragons and BG specifically have already appropriated pretty freely elsewhere, Druid tropes come to mind. But thematically and structurally (in terms of the UI presentation) I think that would work well. Since the Male/Female choice is just a gateway to head/hair models or basic phenotype for the animations, having a third option that provides everything makes sense. It would be a nice nod to conventions that are being adopted by contemporary style guides or dictionaries to include the pronoun at the end, but just from char creation standpoint it would be cool to have a mode that opens every field. I can't see it hurting anything. So when you enter the first prompt Male/Female you could highlight an option Two Spirit, the last would just give the player freedom to select the phenotype and tell the game how to reference the avatar in convo.
What kind of argument against implementing "they/them" or choosing gender pronouns at character creation is that "Mr. Orc doesn't care, he's gonna eat you anyway"?

Besides, the way the tag system work it would be a breeze to implement (other than the translations). "Female" and "Male" are tags, like "Bard" or "Halfling" and they are what define dialogue options. I bet that this could be solved by an unofficial mod in a jiffy, English is an easy-going gender-neutral language most of the time, and the only time-consuming hurdle would be managing the translations, which is NOT expensive, particularly as the ones available in gendered languages have been crafted with a lot of care and there is software that would help find the variations and implementing them a breeze.
Pronouns huh?
If something is born with a sausage, its a sausage.
If born with a peach, its a peach.

No matter what its calls itself. xD

>quickly runs away grin
Originally Posted by Aishaddai
@TheBlueFaery yeah gender is not a social construct. The pronouns are. You are born either male or female. Trans literally means transformation as in you physically and chemically changed your body through a medical procedure. You can believe whatever you want, but biology and anatomy is very clear. Also don't equate spirits and religion to your social construct. I am no stranger to religion, spiritual history, mysticism, and cultural history. You are really barking up the wrong tree and I'll leave it at that. What a predictable topic. Insulted twice now first black people are hellspawn and now religion and spirituality is now trans inclusive against all evidence to the contrary historically. Religion and spirituality of all things. Bet mods will still go after me too. I'm out. No good will come of this.

While I indicated many issues with the OP's notion, I sure as heck am not going as far as you did. A person can identify any which way they want, and I won't contradict it.

My point is, absent any information to the contrary, pronoun references will be based upon an individuals observations of another person - appearance, voice, dress, carriage, gestures and such.

Once informed that their observation based assumption is not correct, some individuals may respect that, while others might not.

In the specific example I identified, an orc or goblin won't give a damn how you self-identify- unless it is as "breakfast" , "snack" or "unpaid labor".
I don't know how or if I can like a post here (just made an account to reply to this) but I fully agree with everything you said Everyone deserves the right to be able to envision themselves in the story, and if something is blocking the way (in this case, not having an option for they/them pronouns) then it should be modified so that you can see yourself in the game! I hope that Larian reads this and will implement it!
Originally Posted by BeeBee
What kind of argument against implementing "they/them" or choosing gender pronouns at character creation is that "Mr. Orc doesn't care, he's gonna eat you anyway"?

Besides, the way the tag system work it would be a breeze to implement (other than the translations). "Female" and "Male" are tags, like "Bard" or "Halfling" and they are what define dialogue options. I bet that this could be solved by an unofficial mod in a jiffy, English is an easy-going gender-neutral language most of the time, and the only time-consuming hurdle would be managing the translations, which is NOT expensive, particularly as the ones available in gendered languages have been crafted with a lot of care and there is software that would help find the variations and implementing them a breeze.

Female and Male are the designations for the two human genotypes. There is no currently genotype or chromosomal combination designated by science to include "straight" "gay" "queer", bi-normal" or such. Those are psychological/emotional/behavioral designations - again, I will not contradict or deny anyone their self-identification. In the US we have a number of folks who have self-identified as black, latinx, native-american and so on, often with not a single hereditary, genetic, ancestral or cultural tie to the self-designation other than "I feel like I belong to that group". This seems to be the newest frontier - I won't gainsay their self-identification - but sometimes a rose is a rose.

However, people base initial identification on observational data. If it looks like a car, absent any data or information to the contrary, it will be called a car. Once it turns into a giant robot, it may be deemed a Transformer, but until then, it's a car.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Larian is welcome to create a system such as you request, then welcome to go through each and every conversation and determine in which the npc the character is speaking with will give a damn, and which (said Orc) will not, then create appropriate alternate responses.

Whether this is a productive use of their resources, given the many other issues they need to resolve, and the additional income this might create via additional purchasers of the game is not my decision.
Closed for review (and before anyone else gets themselves banned).
Okay guys and gals and others,

Just an explanation and clarification as to why this thread is locked under review.

The lock has nothing whatsoever to do with the OP's suggestion of a gender-neutral pronoun option. It is down to some people's reaction to it and the potential for a train-wreck as a result. We do not want real-life divisive politics to cause argument and friction on a a forum about BG3. The problem is that some people cannot address divisive issues without becoming offensive.


EDIT: A consensus has been reached, and the thread will remain locked.
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