Larian Studios
Posted By: Arne Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 02:07 PM
Just a little feeback about my *personal* thoughts regarding the current romance options.

Female romance options:

Lae'zel:

Typical 'strong warrior woman' archetype. Works well enough. She is obviously not very good looking/attractive, but you can ignore that and it fits the archetype. Her evilness or ruthlessness is however not played very straight - her arrogance should of course prevent a romance if you are not Gith yourself. Even befriending her should only be possible if you act competent and ruthless.

Shadowheart:

I would expect her character to act much more secretive and clever. She should try to pass herself off as harmless. Right now, she is basically telling you: "I have a big secret, try to find out!". And the next moment, she tells you not to pry. That apparently rubs many players in the wrong way and antagonizes them.

In fact, it should be difficult to find out about her. She could even be a 'secret' romance option you can only woo if you pass certain checks and own certain items.

By the way, also please consider including at least some 'normal' characters. Just a 'normal' hunter, a 'normal' merchant etc. - someone who does *not* have a big secret.

Male romance options:

Astarion:

Ugh, I immediately rejected him - for the simple reason that he tried to attack me and is obviously a sleazebag. The only reason I took him along was because of game mechanics: I needed a rogue and he was the only one available.

Again, the 'Vampire' backstory is told far too early, too obvious and too forced. A vampire should act secretive. You should maybe find out in the third or fourth act.

Gale:

Maybe the only one who was halfway acceptable. The scene where he watches himself as mirror image was slightly funny and fits the character. Again, the entire background story with the weave and consuming artifacts feels a little deliberate. Why not just have an arrogant mage? Not *every* character in your party needs to have a big secret. Some of these people might just be normal. Normal people can be interesting.

Wyll:

Didn't play much with him, my party was already full. So I can't say much about it.

--------------------------

Altogether: 'Special' characters with a big secret can only shine if they are presented in contrast with 'normal' people. Lae'zel is right now the most 'normal' character of the bunch - apart from being a Gith. Shadowheart should be more secretive, it should be *difficult* to find out about her - maybe even make her a secret romance option. The same is true for Astarion.

Gale and Wyll would, in my very personal opinion, be *more* interesting if they were just normal. If Wyll were just a normal ranger fighting to protect the woods of his home I would actually like him *more*. If Gale would just be a narcissistic mage without any special backstory, he would be *more* relatable.

All that is of course my own opinion and other people might have completely different tastes.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 02:18 PM
Astarion's actions are actually revealed if you play as him. I also like how everyone always praises Gale, I assure you, he is a wonderful manipulator, I am sure that Gale is a dark horse, and perhaps even worse than Astarion.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 02:37 PM
Gonna focus on the guys cause that's what I like, also all three are conventionally attractive but not exactly my type:

Romance with the companions we have so far seems very risky and while I think they can definitely have genuine feelings for our character, I also think they still would go toward their ulterior motives.

Gale: He is sweet and charming but a little accepting of darker actions. I do think in romance he cares about the player BUT he'd dump us in a heartbeat for Mistra. He is practically enamored with magic and a romance with him is built upon that. I find him interesting and think him the best (not my favorite, just least risky) but also could become the worst.

Wyll: He's okay I guess. Very braggadocios and toots his own horn as a hero. He did do his exploits but it wasn't on his own merits. He got the issue with his patron and I get the feeling he is very very desperate and would not be reliable for that reason cause getting out of a devil's deal would trump anything.

Astarion: My favorite. It seems to start off as just him being a sleezy vampire wanting only a bite but he does seem to actually start to care and even holds himself back for the player character. However, if it meant being no longer a spawn, I do think he would totally drain us dry at this stage.

Essentially, all three romances don't seem concrete yet, it's an in the moment fling and those connections could likely be severed when their goals are in sight.


So I agree we need more normal characters to romance but we also need more options that are not so "dangerous".
Posted By: Umbra Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 02:53 PM
I think as the game expands, the Shadowheart romance will become the most rewarding to follow. There's not much to it now, but it could have some great Cold War Spy Novel story yet to come.

Gale is the one I'd be warning my friends off in real life. He's got controlling partner written all over him. Proper warning lights popping for him. Sweet and charming when it's going his way, but there's a nasty edge to him when you deny him, and his reactions to the PC romancing Asterion are very telling.

I also think that Lae'zel wouldn't romance a non-Gith. Use for sex, yes - and possiblty that's all she'd use a Gith for too. But when Kith'rak Voss calls the rest of the party slaves, I don't think she sees us any differently.

I don't think about Wyll for romancing any of my characters, but I am looking forward to watching the Wyll/Mizora thing play out. I'd prefer to get the option to steer that relationship into break-up or make-up with or without the Pact.

Astarion gets all the best lines, and the Vampire story is a classic. In Early Access, he's my favourite but with a fuller game he may lose out to Shadowheart.

I tend to play the hell out of games, so I'll of course play all the options in EA and release before playing my "personal canon run" whoever that may be with.

Edit: I did just realise, there's no option here in BG3 that I would reject as hard as I did Anomen in BG2.
Posted By: BeeBee Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 03:03 PM
I don't think that Astarion's big secret is that he's a vampire spawn, but rather WHY the Gur felt the need to beat him up in his own turf when he was alive and powerful.

Myzora is a feature, not a bug. Can't wait to get to know her better, she seems awesome based on her datamined lines. I like Wyll, but it's true that his voyeuristic eye is a bit of a romplock.

Gale is incredibly manipulative and very judgemental; he keeps throwing shade at "unnatural" things like "raising the undead", "corrupting hags", etc. when he keeps raising himself from the dead because he's literally corrupted with unnatural magic that could destroy the universe, far beyond the scope of any necromancer, vampire's or hag's magic. He looks in the mirror but only sees what he wants to see, while Wyll and Astarion have a clearer vision of who they are and what they've done.

Lae'zel is Bae and my Green Queen. Weirdly enough, she seems much more open to change than Shadowheart -- she's vows to help the party at the Githyanki crêche, and is quick to turn against her own people if they refuse to help her, re-evaluating their motives.

I like these romance routes, because each and every one of these characters are setting the PC up both for an extraordinary romance... or an exquisite heartbreak. For instance, take Astarion's personal quest, and assume that he succeeds.

- He could take Cazador's place as vampire patriarch -- in which case goodbye any positive characteristics, including "fun" and "pleasure" and "through lover" he will be all Evil. If your PC is Neutral or Good, that might be a deal breaker going forward, particularly given his moral flexibility regarding thinking slaves.

- He could kill Cazador, in which case he would revert to his elf-self, losing any vampiric powers and keeping the parasite. A bit of a bummer for a survival-obsessed character.

- He could imprison Cazador without kiling him and take his vengeance slowly, a risky prospect that would allow him to remain "the most powerful vampire SPAWN" in the realms as long as he kept the parasite. In which case, if he doesn't want to renounce to the perks of sunlight, entering houses without permission, etc... the PC would have to accept the risk of Astarion abusing the illithid powers or bind him with Omeluum's ring. "Wth this ring I bind you, till undeath does us apart."


You can already trace similar tales for Wyll and Gale.

Lae'zel's story seems to point at an eventual confrontation with Vla'akith, while Shadowheart's path is still covered in shadows, truly the most mysterious of all.
Posted By: Rack Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 03:18 PM
I'd agree with pretty much all of this. I think a party of misfits can work without a straight man though that archetype definitely makes it work better. Maybe it's forthcoming.

One thing that personally annoys me is the evil characters are so far into chaotic stupid territory I can't see them being played by more than a tiny minority of players. If you only have 9 characters why have 3+ that are almost entirely impossible to work with?

Also having an option to romance Shadowheart when she comes across as a special needs child is pretty creepy.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 03:21 PM
I believe Astarion reveal is great ...
Sure it was soon, but also it was accident, so ... i gues it should be fine.
Posted By: Worm Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 03:52 PM
I had to go through every BG2 romance with a FAQ and the console turned on because they were so finnicky. So I'm not really interested in things being "more difficult", also feel like the 'secret ending' in Pathfinder was ruined because of that too. Playing whack-a-mole with dialog choices just isn't fun for me.

I would like less dialog like Lae'zel's "You could have been all up in this, but you didn't agree with me enough" but I really don't mind Shadowheart being a bad spy or Lae'zal being overly DTF. As far as them being "special" I just don't care, most of my favorite NPCs in BG1/2 were special and I don't necessarily know if we won't be getting more NPCs further on into the story. I'd love to see someone like Korgan but I'm just as happy with a bunch of Viconias.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 04:00 PM
I agree mostly, but I hate Astarion. I don't get the fanhype, he invokes everywhere. I just find him incredible sleazy and annoying. I try to do his romance in my current playthrough, but it is painful.
With Gale, I like the friendship path more - he is the sometimes annoying big brother for my characters. And yes, I do think, he is a manipulator too.
Wylls romance is actually nice - he was the first romance I did. I played a warlock and kind of felt, that bonding over our patrons is a nice touch (you have special dialogue with him as a warlock).
I never did Lae'Zels romance, not because, I don't like the character, but because I normally don't really use her in my group (I mostly play without a fighter - just not my class).
Shadowhearts romance I actually like - which is a surprise, because I hated her on my firts playthrough and she still manages to annoy me. Right now, she is my favorite, but I'm pretty sure that will change, once Karlach might become an option.

(I do like ladies more, that might be reason, Astarions 'charme' is lost on me - I don't play romances according to my actual preferences though, but for a promising story)
Posted By: Arne Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by Worm
I had to go through every BG2 romance with a FAQ and the console turned on because they were so finnicky. So I'm not really interested in things being "more difficult", also feel like the 'secret ending' in Pathfinder was ruined because of that too. Playing whack-a-mole with dialog choices just isn't fun for me.

Yes, the secret ending in pathfinder is *really* complicated.

Btw. I think pathfinder would really have profited from splitting the game into 2 or even 3 games. Some games nowadays simply grow too big for my tastes.

Originally Posted by BeeBee
Myzora is a feature, not a bug. Can't wait to get to know her better, she seems awesome based on her datamined lines. I like Wyll, but it's true that his voyeuristic eye is a bit of a romplock.

Huh, Myzora? Couldn't find anything by googling?
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 04:14 PM
Originally Posted by Arne
Originally Posted by Worm
I had to go through every BG2 romance with a FAQ and the console turned on because they were so finnicky. So I'm not really interested in things being "more difficult", also feel like the 'secret ending' in Pathfinder was ruined because of that too. Playing whack-a-mole with dialog choices just isn't fun for me.

Yes, the secret ending in pathfinder is *really* complicated.

Btw. I think pathfinder would really have profited from splitting the game into 2 or even 3 games. Some games nowadays simply grow too big for my tastes.

Originally Posted by BeeBee
Myzora is a feature, not a bug. Can't wait to get to know her better, she seems awesome based on her datamined lines. I like Wyll, but it's true that his voyeuristic eye is a bit of a romplock.

Huh, Myzora? Couldn't find anything by googling?

Myzora is Wylls patron. The one, he has to free from teh drows in order to get freed from her. Datamining has brought up some lines by Myzora.
Posted By: BeeBee Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 04:27 PM
I like Astarion for thirsty reasons, even though I sometimes feel like I'm invading LGQTB spaces when I romance him. That might be a me problem though.

However, I also like him because the man is a walking representation of the selfish will to live that any decent player must have. Not only is he enjoying his tadpoled predicament as much as a BG fan is, after decades of draught, but physically he is the embodiment of the best and the worst that the tadpole has to offer: awesome powers coupled with bloodthirsty violence, childish glee (like a baby tadpole) at psionically controlling others (like a grown-up illithid, but also just like the player who is in control of all the characters). The scars on his back, Cazador's "poem", are in concentric circles that look both like the marks that a giant tadpole would leave, with their little concentric mouths, and like a target (because we all have targets on our backs). And he's sad at the idea of losing the tadpole, because that would mean he will lose the ability to stand in the sun, just like getting rid of the parasite would mark the beginning of the end of the main quest, in-game.

He's a terribly handsome representation of the player's ID and that's why he's so popular.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 04:31 PM
Gale and Astarion are the only companions, current or future, that I have any interest in, and they're.... acceptable. Obviously we have no idea where the characters or romances are going at this point; if these guys grow and change as the game progresses, and the romances do the same, I'll be satisfied. Probably won't be perfect (from my perspective), but I have headcanon and fanfic to deal with that.


I still want Halsin eventually - please Larian?
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by BeeBee
I like Astarion for thirsty reasons, even though I sometimes feel like I'm invading LGQTB spaces when I romance him. That might be a me problem though.

However, I also like him because the man is a walking representation of the selfish will to live that any decent player must have. Not only is he enjoying his tadpoled predicament as much as a BG fan is, after decades of draught, but physically he is the embodiment of the best and the worst that the tadpole has to offer: awesome powers coupled with bloodthirsty violence, childish glee (like a baby tadpole) at psionically controlling others (like a grown-up illithid, but also just like the player who is in control of all the characters). The scars on his back, Cazador's "poem", are in concentric circles that look both like the marks that a giant tadpole would leave, with their little concentric mouths, and like a target (because we all have targets on our backs). And he's sad at the idea of losing the tadpole, because that would mean he will lose the ability to stand in the sun, just like getting rid of the parasite would mark the beginning of the end of the main quest, in-game.

He's a terribly handsome representation of the player's ID and that's why he's so popular.

That might be - the tadpole comparison is actually something think about.
Astarion has a difficult stance with me: I have become very critical and often tired of vampire representation in media since stuff like Twilight, Vampire DIaries and True Blood became so popular. Since then, good vampire stories are hard to come by ('Let the right one in' was one, that comes to mind) - and I was a big fan of vampire stories. I grew up with Dracula, Carmilla and otehr classics.
And why I do like about Astarion, that he is evil and that you as the player know, you can never trust him (I believe his romance will probably not have an happy end) - which to me is far more in line with vampires than the aforementioned glittering atrocities, I just am a bit fed up with the vampire trope. Granted, he would be a great character in the World of Darkness - I can totally see him as a Toreador antitribu in the Sabbat - and I probably would like him more in that setting. Don't know, if that makes sense ... basically and short version, it's a personal thing and I'm totally ok with all the girls (and many guys) loving Astarion.

Edit for typos.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
I still want Halsin eventually - please Larian?
Agree!
Posted By: BeeBee Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by BeeBee
I like Astarion for thirsty reasons, even though I sometimes feel like I'm invading LGQTB spaces when I romance him. That might be a me problem though.

However, I also like him because the man is a walking representation of the selfish will to live that any decent player must have. Not only is he enjoying his tadpoled predicament as much as a BG fan is, after decades of draught, but physically he is the embodiment of the best and the worst that the tadpole has to offer: awesome powers coupled with bloodthirsty violence, childish glee (like a baby tadpole) at psionically controlling others (like a grown-up illithid, but also just like the player who is in control of all the characters). The scars on his back, Cazador's "poem", are in concentric circles that look both like the marks that a giant tadpole would leave, with their little concentric mouths, and like a target (because we all have targets on our backs). And he's sad at the idea of losing the tadpole, because that would mean he will lose the ability to stand in the sun, just like getting rid of the parasite would mark the beginning of the end of the main quest, in-game.

He's a terribly handsome representation of the player's ID and that's why he's so popular.

That might be - the tadpole comparison is actually something think about.
Astarion has a difficult stance with me: I have become very critical and often tired of vampire representation in media since stuff like Twilight, Vampire DIaries and True Blood became so popular. Since then, good vampire stories are hard to come by ('Let the right one in' was one, that comes to mind) - and I was a big fan of vampire stories. I grew up with Dracula, Carmilla and other classics.
And why I do like about Astarion, that he is evil and that you as the player know, you can never trust him (I believe his romance will probably not have an happy end) - which to me is far more in line with vampires than the aforementioned glittering atrocities, I just am a bit fed up with the vampire trope. Granted, he would be a great character in the World of Darkness - I can totally see him as a Toreador antitribu in the Sabbat - and I probably would like him more in that setting. Don't know, if that makes sense ... basically and short version, it's a personal thing and I'm totally ok with all the girls (and many guys) loving Astarion.

Edit for typos.

Interesting! True Blood vampires are actually pretty brutal, and extremely close to WoD bloodsuckers -- I don't think that any of them get a happy ending in the series or the books. Have you tried some modern books that respects and honours their monstruous nature? The Coldest Girl in Coldtown by Holly Black, Companions of the Night by Vivian Vande Velde and even The Changeover by Margaret Mahy are EXCELLENT self-contained stories that milk the monster trickster aspect to its marrow.

Or, if you want something darker and funnier, this recent release is fantastic: The Southern Book Club's Guide to Slaying Vampires
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by BeeBee
Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by BeeBee
I like Astarion for thirsty reasons, even though I sometimes feel like I'm invading LGQTB spaces when I romance him. That might be a me problem though.

However, I also like him because the man is a walking representation of the selfish will to live that any decent player must have. Not only is he enjoying his tadpoled predicament as much as a BG fan is, after decades of draught, but physically he is the embodiment of the best and the worst that the tadpole has to offer: awesome powers coupled with bloodthirsty violence, childish glee (like a baby tadpole) at psionically controlling others (like a grown-up illithid, but also just like the player who is in control of all the characters). The scars on his back, Cazador's "poem", are in concentric circles that look both like the marks that a giant tadpole would leave, with their little concentric mouths, and like a target (because we all have targets on our backs). And he's sad at the idea of losing the tadpole, because that would mean he will lose the ability to stand in the sun, just like getting rid of the parasite would mark the beginning of the end of the main quest, in-game.

He's a terribly handsome representation of the player's ID and that's why he's so popular.

That might be - the tadpole comparison is actually something think about.
Astarion has a difficult stance with me: I have become very critical and often tired of vampire representation in media since stuff like Twilight, Vampire DIaries and True Blood became so popular. Since then, good vampire stories are hard to come by ('Let the right one in' was one, that comes to mind) - and I was a big fan of vampire stories. I grew up with Dracula, Carmilla and other classics.
And why I do like about Astarion, that he is evil and that you as the player know, you can never trust him (I believe his romance will probably not have an happy end) - which to me is far more in line with vampires than the aforementioned glittering atrocities, I just am a bit fed up with the vampire trope. Granted, he would be a great character in the World of Darkness - I can totally see him as a Toreador antitribu in the Sabbat - and I probably would like him more in that setting. Don't know, if that makes sense ... basically and short version, it's a personal thing and I'm totally ok with all the girls (and many guys) loving Astarion.

Edit for typos.

Interesting! True Blood vampires are actually pretty brutal, and extremely close to WoD bloodsuckers -- I don't think that any of them get a happy ending in the series or the books. Have you tried some modern books that respects and honours their monstruous nature? The Coldest Girl in Coldtown by Holly Black, Companions of the Night by Vivian Vande Velde and even The Changeover by Margaret Mahy are EXCELLENT self-contained stories that milk the monster trickster aspect to its marrow.

Or, if you want something darker and funnier, this recent release is fantastic: The Southern Book Club's Guide to Slaying Vampires

I really tried with the True Blood books and series, but all the characters just annoyed me - that waitress the most of it, but I hated the love triangles and the male vampires Bill and Eric too. I think, the only character I could stand was in the book the shapeshifter, who owned the bar and in the series the vampire that invaded the news studio with the ash of his former lover and gave that hilarious mad speech - he was so Malkavian.

A more modern story I like - apart from Let the right one in, which is only a few years old, is Lost Souls from Poppy Z. Brite. It's very brutal, but a well written story.
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by Arne
Gale:

Maybe the only one who was halfway acceptable. The scene where he watches himself as mirror image was slightly funny and fits the character. Again, the entire background story with the weave and consuming artifacts feels a little deliberate. Why not just have an arrogant mage? Not *every* character in your party needs to have a big secret. Some of these people might just be normal. Normal people can be interesting.

This is very true. The scene with the mirror is his best one, and everything kind of falls apart with him after his reveal.

Don't get me wrong the VA's great and made the story very cool sounding and all, but i was hoping for at least one person to be relatively normal and/or well adjusted. Instead, man's a walking bomb and attachment issues. My character being an old, chill elf buffered things a bit for me but Jesus. I don't even pretend an Eder(the best characterization of 'normal' i've yet seen), but al least give me someone who doesn't have the hugest problems and the personality flaws of a teenager to go with 'em.
Posted By: Dexai Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 05:34 PM
Let the Right One In

My experience with vampire books us pretty much limited to that but it's pretty monstrous
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by Dexai
Let the Right One In

My experience with vampire books us pretty much limited to that but it's pretty monstrous
Never read the book, but I liked the movie. smile
Posted By: Sadurian Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 05:57 PM
It's well worth a read. Very 'Scandinavian' in tone, if you know what I mean.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by Dexai
Let the Right One In

My experience with vampire books us pretty much limited to that but it's pretty monstrous
Never read the book, but I liked the movie. smile


The book is great. As far as movies goes, both the scandinavian and the US version are pretty good. The US version manages to be a bit more dark actually (which surprised me, since normally it is the otehr way around).

To get back to topic: I'm trying the Astarion romance atm and somehow managed to get a high approval with him for the first time ever - and I'm playing a really good character, so I must have done some dialogues right, because I get a lot of dissapproval from simply helping people.
Originally Posted by fylimar
To get back to topic: I'm trying the Astarion romance atm and somehow managed to get a high approval with him for the first time ever - and I'm playing a really good character, so I must have done some dialogues right, because I get a lot of dissapproval from simply helping people.

Astarion is stupid easy to bed.

I played with four custom characters which means he never was in my party. I made all “good” choices and pretty much ignored any approval ratings. After defeating Minthara, everyone else rejected my character. Not Asterion.

With the right combination of dialogue choices, I got the romance scene.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 06:04 PM
I will put the book on my list of things to read! smile
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by BeeBee
I like Astarion for thirsty reasons, even though I sometimes feel like I'm invading LGQTB spaces when I romance him. That might be a me problem though.

However, I also like him because the man is a walking representation of the selfish will to live that any decent player must have. Not only is he enjoying his tadpoled predicament as much as a BG fan is, after decades of draught, but physically he is the embodiment of the best and the worst that the tadpole has to offer: awesome powers coupled with bloodthirsty violence, childish glee (like a baby tadpole) at psionically controlling others (like a grown-up illithid, but also just like the player who is in control of all the characters). The scars on his back, Cazador's "poem", are in concentric circles that look both like the marks that a giant tadpole would leave, with their little concentric mouths, and like a target (because we all have targets on our backs). And he's sad at the idea of losing the tadpole, because that would mean he will lose the ability to stand in the sun, just like getting rid of the parasite would mark the beginning of the end of the main quest, in-game.

He's a terribly handsome representation of the player's ID and that's why he's so popular.

I don't think he has anything with LGQTB... He's just a proud asshole and a villain, that's all. Also xenophobe and so charming. Astarion not only wants to survive, he also revels in violence and power, he likes it.

Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Originally Posted by fylimar
To get back to topic: I'm trying the Astarion romance atm and somehow managed to get a high approval with him for the first time ever - and I'm playing a really good character, so I must have done some dialogues right, because I get a lot of dissapproval from simply helping people.

Astarion is stupid easy to bed.

I played with four custom characters which means he never was in my party. I made all “good” choices and pretty much ignored any approval ratings. After defeating Minthara, everyone else rejected my character. Not Asterion.

With the right combination of dialogue choices, I got the romance scene.

I still hope it's a bug. Right now, you can get his romance scene literally at lowest approval.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by Icelyn
I will put the book on my list of things to read! smile


It's great, but really, really dark.

spectralhunter: I thought, there would be more scenes with Astarion, if the approval is higher, like with Gales Weave scene for example. That is, why I tried to get the approval a bit up.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by BeeBee
I like Astarion for thirsty reasons, even though I sometimes feel like I'm invading LGQTB spaces when I romance him. That might be a me problem though.

However, I also like him because the man is a walking representation of the selfish will to live that any decent player must have. Not only is he enjoying his tadpoled predicament as much as a BG fan is, after decades of draught, but physically he is the embodiment of the best and the worst that the tadpole has to offer: awesome powers coupled with bloodthirsty violence, childish glee (like a baby tadpole) at psionically controlling others (like a grown-up illithid, but also just like the player who is in control of all the characters). The scars on his back, Cazador's "poem", are in concentric circles that look both like the marks that a giant tadpole would leave, with their little concentric mouths, and like a target (because we all have targets on our backs). And he's sad at the idea of losing the tadpole, because that would mean he will lose the ability to stand in the sun, just like getting rid of the parasite would mark the beginning of the end of the main quest, in-game.

He's a terribly handsome representation of the player's ID and that's why he's so popular.

I don't think he has anything with LGQTB... He's just a proud asshole and a villain, that's all. Also xenophobe and so charming. Astarion not only wants to survive, he also revels in violence and power, he likes it.

Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Originally Posted by fylimar
To get back to topic: I'm trying the Astarion romance atm and somehow managed to get a high approval with him for the first time ever - and I'm playing a really good character, so I must have done some dialogues right, because I get a lot of dissapproval from simply helping people.

Astarion is stupid easy to bed.

I played with four custom characters which means he never was in my party. I made all “good” choices and pretty much ignored any approval ratings. After defeating Minthara, everyone else rejected my character. Not Asterion.

With the right combination of dialogue choices, I got the romance scene.

I still hope it's a bug. Right now, you can get his romance scene literally at lowest approval.

I just assumed he was a horn dog. smile
Posted By: BeeBee Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
I just assumed he was a horn dog. smile


And that would be correct laugh
The romances are most interesting to me when it feels like whatever character I've rolled really plays off the energy of the character.

Shadowheart: I like her being with a character than can really play with her snark with teasing, and downplay how heavy she makes situations out to be. I believe you get a bit of disapproval for this, but there's also the addition of really charming her off her feet and probably flexing all aspects of having high CHA (including deception, which she is impressed by). Narratively, I think making her comfortable emotionally will make her romance feel so sweet. I don't buy her callous attitude and think a romancing PC shouldn't either. The Shar worship is definitely a hurdle for her to have any sort of connection with the PC. Otherwise I can see her being either tearfully or coldly willing to kiss the PC and kill them in the same encounter.

Astarion: Really surprised his romance is the most romantic. Probably because his gimmick doesn't really get in the way of it like others. I like pairing him with a character who's just as chaotic as him, entertained by the fiendish things he suggests, and tries to make the most out of any opportunity. Have yet to play this character though since I tend to play characters who are overly serious and would never romance Astarion in their life. I love having him around though because it humors me to think of how annoyed my characters are by him.

Gale: I just don't see this guy being anything but neutral good. I don't distrust him in the slightest and with the characters I'm interested in, his arrogance is barely even noticeable. I've got a character in mind who would definitely be good alignment, very sympathetic and doing as much as they can to help those around them. I can very much see the whole Mystra angle really causing this PC to pull away and take a more confrontative approach to him that is both self-serving (because they are still falling for him) but also sympathetic (seeing the path of trying to impress fickle gods as a path of self-destruction). Probably would spec this character as healer/support for added affect.

Wyll: His path seems like the one that the PC can influence the most, and we already see that with the scene with Spike. I can see a lawful good character being the healthiest route: doing good and being the bigger man/woman no matter what and staying strong through the consequences. But I found playing a neutral character with an evil bent more rewarding in actual play. It offered a rare opportunity for that character to open up about being tempted by power but also to put pressure on Wyll to reconcile his feelings with his actions. I also feel a good PC romancing Wyll will encounter some sort of trouble pulling him away from Mizora, while an evil character can try to beat her at her own game (which is messed up). Evilness aside, I also liked the vibe of working through issues of morality in tandem with Wyll, being pushed closer and closer to depravity until both realize that its a repeating cycle they have to break.

Lae'zel: I really play up the angle of an alliance born of convenience that evolves through time. A duo of slightly competing, abrasive leaders, where you are reconnaissance and she takes point. Doesn't matter that you expect her to kill you at the end of all this and she expects you to die and have to replace you at the next turn - she knows a potential cure and you know how to maneuver this place. This PC is resolute and in particular a survivor with a good bit of WIS with proficiency in Insight, Perception, and/or Survival. This works wonders in showing determination to not turn into mindflayers, but also to play up the angle of trying to read her intentions properly and assist when her foresight proves poor (eg the Tadpole Fever, Gith Patrol scene). Over time, the alliance of convenience becomes a sort of trust of competence as you both try to work out the tadpole situation and where to go next.
This last bit is my own speculation and possible over-analysis, but I feel like the trust element is actually the big thing about the "romance". Especially since a character like this tends to turn on you at some point, gaining that approval might be among the only things to prevent it. While she makes no promises, I do think you can take her at her word, and that the moments when she looks to be withholding information are moments where she just will never speak into the aether that she's uncertain. There are a lot of things she just will never say because of her pride, and so the PC just kind of has to infer. This allows her to be strong, but also "human". Again, I leave myself open to be surprised or disappointed wherever her storyline and "romance" ends up, but I am thoroughly intrigued by her and she quite obviously my favorite. We'll see.

Thanks for coming to my TEDTalk.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/02/21 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Astarion's actions are actually revealed if you play as him. I also like how everyone always praises Gale, I assure you, he is a wonderful manipulator, I am sure that Gale is a dark horse, and perhaps even worse than Astarion.

Yeah especially once you get to the point to hear his backstory.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/02/21 09:23 AM
Originally Posted by BeeBee
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
I just assumed he was a horn dog. smile


And that would be correct laugh

The fact is that with low approval, if you "flirt" he refuses you. It not fails only if Astarion is initiator, this is why I think it's bug. It looks very strange.
Posted By: Dexai Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/02/21 11:42 AM
He's just dying to get a chance of that sweet sweet life wine
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/02/21 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by Rack
I'd agree with pretty much all of this. I think a party of misfits can work without a straight man though that archetype definitely makes it work better. Maybe it's forthcoming.

One thing that personally annoys me is the evil characters are so far into chaotic stupid territory I can't see them being played by more than a tiny minority of players. If you only have 9 characters why have 3+ that are almost entirely impossible to work with?

Also having an option to romance Shadowheart when she comes across as a special needs child is pretty creepy.

How in the...How did you come to the conclusion that Shadowheart comes across as a special needs child?
Posted By: Rack Re: Current companions/romance options - 23/02/21 11:27 AM
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by Rack
I'd agree with pretty much all of this. I think a party of misfits can work without a straight man though that archetype definitely makes it work better. Maybe it's forthcoming.

One thing that personally annoys me is the evil characters are so far into chaotic stupid territory I can't see them being played by more than a tiny minority of players. If you only have 9 characters why have 3+ that are almost entirely impossible to work with?

Also having an option to romance Shadowheart when she comes across as a special needs child is pretty creepy.

How in the...How did you come to the conclusion that Shadowheart comes across as a special needs child?

Because that's how she acts at all times? She's a 13 year old goth kid who's really a xx year old half elf and she's just discovered lying and lies like a four year old. She hasn't developed theory of mind yet so she can't think a step ahead to how the other party would respond to the lie or realise how obvious it is. She'll sit there with Shar all over her face saying she didn't take the Shar.
Posted By: Worm Re: Current companions/romance options - 23/02/21 03:33 PM
You know I've come around on using flags for the romances. As it is now you get to the celebration event and everyone wants to bang you, it's really weird. Especially with Lae'Zal who basically says "You'd be up in this only if you agreed with me more". It makes no sense at all and just comes off as protagsexual. Now if we do something like trigger Lae'Zal's romance after the scene with the other Gith it makes a little more sense.

This is also good because we can presumably have friend routes with the characters too. I really don't know if that's in there or not, everyone seems to think of you romantically if you show them a little interest. I'll probably have better formed points when I replay it after the next patch.
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Current companions/romance options - 23/02/21 04:14 PM
Talking about companions' characterization, and having been playing Dragon Age games these last couple of months, i gotta say the banters in BG3 are way weaker than i first thought.

Granted, i haven't played the latter in a while, but if i remember correctly most of them were one/two lines each of awkward flirting. Meanwhile in Origins a talking rock (Shale) could have a string of meaningful discussions with someone who might as well have been a rock (Sten). Dragon Age 2 has the best banters in the series so i'm not even gonna go there, but even freaking Sera and Solas, in Inquisition, have more meaningful conversations than, say, Gale and Shadowheart.

It'll be a very big shame if banters end up not being used to show the different sides of the companion. I mean, i just said i wouldn't go there but screw it, someone like Varric, in Dragon Age 2, is so awesome precisely because his banters help to show us the 'mother hen' he actually is beneath all the bluster.

Again, if i remember correctly, what they're doing with SH and Lae'zel is kind of cool and a step in the right directions, what with them slowly acclimating to eachother by the time we reach the Underdark, but it's kind of a waste that, for the majority of them, all they're giving us are little doses of more of the same.
Posted By: Dexai Re: Current companions/romance options - 23/02/21 04:44 PM
Fun fact: Sten means Stone in Swedish
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 23/02/21 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Talking about companions' characterization, and having been playing Dragon Age games these last couple of months, i gotta say the banters in BG3 are way weaker than i first thought.

Granted, i haven't played the latter in a while, but if i remember correctly most of them were one/two lines each of awkward flirting. Meanwhile in Origins a talking rock (Shale) could have a string of meaningful discussions with someone who might as well have been a rock (Sten). Dragon Age 2 has the best banters in the series so i'm not even gonna go there, but even freaking Sera and Solas, in Inquisition, have more meaningful conversations than, say, Gale and Shadowheart.

It'll be a very big shame if banters end up not being used to show the different sides of the companion. I mean, i just said i wouldn't go there but screw it, someone like Varric, in Dragon Age 2, is so awesome precisely because his banters help to show us the 'mother hen' he actually is beneath all the bluster.

Again, if i remember correctly, what they're doing with SH and Lae'zel is kind of cool and a step in the right directions, what with them slowly acclimating to eachother by the time we reach the Underdark, but it's kind of a waste that, for the majority of them, all they're giving us are little doses of more of the same.

Take Wyll and Astarion, their interaction is amazing. Or Lae and Shadow. It's like taking Anders and Fenris, unforgettable.
Posted By: BeeBee Re: Current companions/romance options - 23/02/21 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Take Wyll and Astarion, their interaction is amazing. Or Lae and Shadow. It's like taking Anders and Fenris, unforgettable.

Astarion has such a crush on Wyll; it's really cute.
Posted By: Arne Re: Current companions/romance options - 23/02/21 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by Worm
It makes no sense at all and just comes off as protagsexual.

Haha wink


Originally Posted by Rack
One thing that personally annoys me is the evil characters are so far into chaotic stupid territory

Many games show evil characters as acting basically 'stupid' because it's simply easier and more convenient. It's hard to write a good evil character. You have to come up with good reasons why he acts exploitative or egoistical. You have to take viewpoints which you maybe don't like yourself and don't agree with. You have to challenge your own world view. Many people don't like that.

Take for example Alpha Centauri: Chairman Yang is a brutal dictator - and his faction is one of the best at war and higher difficulties. Or Sister Miriam: She is completely fundamentalist and absolutely devastating with espionage. While the nice and kind UN and Gaians struggle to maintain an army.
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Current companions/romance options - 23/02/21 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Talking about companions' characterization, and having been playing Dragon Age games these last couple of months, i gotta say the banters in BG3 are way weaker than i first thought.

Granted, i haven't played the latter in a while, but if i remember correctly most of them were one/two lines each of awkward flirting. Meanwhile in Origins a talking rock (Shale) could have a string of meaningful discussions with someone who might as well have been a rock (Sten). Dragon Age 2 has the best banters in the series so i'm not even gonna go there, but even freaking Sera and Solas, in Inquisition, have more meaningful conversations than, say, Gale and Shadowheart.

It'll be a very big shame if banters end up not being used to show the different sides of the companion. I mean, i just said i wouldn't go there but screw it, someone like Varric, in Dragon Age 2, is so awesome precisely because his banters help to show us the 'mother hen' he actually is beneath all the bluster.

Again, if i remember correctly, what they're doing with SH and Lae'zel is kind of cool and a step in the right directions, what with them slowly acclimating to eachother by the time we reach the Underdark, but it's kind of a waste that, for the majority of them, all they're giving us are little doses of more of the same.

Take Wyll and Astarion, their interaction is amazing. Or Lae and Shadow. It's like taking Anders and Fenris, unforgettable.

I pretty much listened to all of them and the only ones i like are Gale/Lae, 'cause they actually discuss interesting stuff, and Lae/SH, for the building relationship. The others are just, imo, more of the same (which Lae/SH kind of qualifies too actually, since they're as antagonistic to eachother as they are to the MC), or flirting. Nothing too interesting.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 23/02/21 08:45 PM
I hope that our comanions will romance each other, if we dont choose them.
Such small detail incerase feeling of realism. :P
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I hope that our comanions will romance each other, if we dont choose them.
Such small detail incerase feeling of realism. :P

It’d be interesting to be able to nudge some along as the main character.
Posted By: Rack Re: Current companions/romance options - 23/02/21 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by Arne
Originally Posted by Worm
It makes no sense at all and just comes off as protagsexual.

Haha wink


Originally Posted by Rack
One thing that personally annoys me is the evil characters are so far into chaotic stupid territory

Many games show evil characters as acting basically 'stupid' because it's simply easier and more convenient. It's hard to write a good evil character. You have to come up with good reasons why he acts exploitative or egoistical. You have to take viewpoints which you maybe don't like yourself and don't agree with. You have to challenge your own world view. Many people don't like that.

Take for example Alpha Centauri: Chairman Yang is a brutal dictator - and his faction is one of the best at war and higher difficulties. Or Sister Miriam: She is completely fundamentalist and absolutely devastating with espionage. While the nice and kind UN and Gaians struggle to maintain an army.

Yeah there's definitely a history to it if there wasn't I wouldn't be so tired with it. But these types of games have had evil companions for a while and so few of them are worthwhile it's a huge waste. It's especially weird since anti-heroes in fiction are generally really fun characters. There's so much room for them to be practical and snarky, saying the kinds of things the heroes wouldn't but still would enjoy. Instead it's just wall to wall unlikeable psychopaths and idiots because people might forget they're evil if they aren't being evil 100% of the time.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 23/02/21 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by Worm
You know I've come around on using flags for the romances. As it is now you get to the celebration event and everyone wants to bang you, it's really weird. Especially with Lae'Zal who basically says "You'd be up in this only if you agreed with me more". It makes no sense at all and just comes off as protagsexual. Now if we do something like trigger Lae'Zal's romance after the scene with the other Gith it makes a little more sense.

This is also good because we can presumably have friend routes with the characters too. I really don't know if that's in there or not, everyone seems to think of you romantically if you show them a little interest. I'll probably have better formed points when I replay it after the next patch.

There is at least a pure friendship route with Gale. If you don't get the Weave scene or if you don't use any flirt in the Weave scene, he won't come at you during celebrations. He still is a bit jealous with high approval, but it's still a nice friendship road imo.
Posted By: BeeBee Re: Current companions/romance options - 23/02/21 09:51 PM
Why wouldn't they be protagsexual? Every part of us is a delight. :-3
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Current companions/romance options - 23/02/21 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I hope that our comanions will romance each other, if we dont choose them.
Such small detail incerase feeling of realism. :P

Agreed. I think there's something about Gale's attraction to Shadowheart that is revealing. I wonder if he isn't telling the whole truth? That perhaps he went in search of the shadow weave and that's why Mystra left? Perhaps Gale is being seduced by those dark eye and is about to walk down a dark path?

Likewise Shadowheart's flirtation with Wyll might tell us something about her backstory? She is attracted to men like Wyll but they always disappoint. Did some brave heroes fail to protect her when she was vulnerable?
Originally Posted by BeeBee
Why wouldn't they be protagsexual? Every part of us is a delight. :-3

Haha. I laughed and smiled at this. Well done.
Posted By: Xeneize Re: Current companions/romance options - 23/02/21 10:21 PM
I have to admit Minthara has been my most satisfying romance option so far, although I dislike how linear it is.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: Current companions/romance options - 23/02/21 11:17 PM
Originally Posted by Rack
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by Rack
I'd agree with pretty much all of this. I think a party of misfits can work without a straight man though that archetype definitely makes it work better. Maybe it's forthcoming.

One thing that personally annoys me is the evil characters are so far into chaotic stupid territory I can't see them being played by more than a tiny minority of players. If you only have 9 characters why have 3+ that are almost entirely impossible to work with?

Also having an option to romance Shadowheart when she comes across as a special needs child is pretty creepy.

How in the...How did you come to the conclusion that Shadowheart comes across as a special needs child?

Because that's how she acts at all times? She's a 13 year old goth kid who's really a xx year old half elf and she's just discovered lying and lies like a four year old. She hasn't developed theory of mind yet so she can't think a step ahead to how the other party would respond to the lie or realise how obvious it is. She'll sit there with Shar all over her face saying she didn't take the Shar.

I think you are seriously misjudging that character, first when does she actually lie about anything, she does not tell you everything, but I have not see in any playthrough where she lies. I mean it could have something to do with her memories being wiped? She tends to try and mess with the main character to see how much character he has, like after you have the devil meeting. I don't really see anything "goth" about her at all, and she doesn't broadcast she is even a Shar follower until a few conversations in you finally get it out of her (if you win a dice roll to do so). Usually at the windmill, or if you win the roll in the cave temple near the owlbear.

Not to mention, I think your letting your own preferences jade your view in regards to the companions and the characters when you make comments like "I think a party of misfits can work without a straight man" I mean what the heck does that have anything to do with anything? I think the party is very diverse and has a few characters with varied background. But EVEN IF they did portray her as a "Goth 13 year old", that is a far cry from a special needs child.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: Current companions/romance options - 23/02/21 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by Xeneize
I have to admit Minthara has been my most satisfying romance option so far, although I dislike how linear it is.

Lol cmon, that is because of the cinematics being so saucy admit it. Hell I will. But if they did make her a companion, it didn't have to be so linear. I mean you could have a redemption arc, or where she turns on the group. I mean there is a lot of leeway on how that character could progress.
Posted By: Anfindel Re: Current companions/romance options - 23/02/21 11:34 PM
Back in BG2 I enjoyed watching Haer'Dalis romance Aerie .

Maybe Astarion can chase after Lae'. That would sure as hell be entertaining to watch !!
Posted By: BeeBee Re: Current companions/romance options - 24/02/21 01:29 AM
Originally Posted by Anfindel
Back in BG2 I enjoyed watching Haer'Dalis romance Aerie .

Maybe Astarion can chase after Lae'. That would sure as hell be entertaining to watch !!


Ehm if you pair up with Wyll, Gale or Shadowheart, Lae'zel will spend the night with Astarion. You can talk to her afterward, and she will tell you that he was an extremely enthusiastic partner.

She's less keen about Wyll's prowess (her choice if you romance Astarion) going so far as to request to stop talking about their night together.
I just want to have a romance encounter end by fading out as she says "Mighty Booyagh!"
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 24/02/21 08:20 AM
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I hope that our comanions will romance each other, if we dont choose them.
Such small detail incerase feeling of realism. :P

It’d be interesting to be able to nudge some along as the main character.
That is whole new level ...
But for some (Astarion) who may seem like "pleasure first, rules second" (Astarion) i could imagine such hedonist (Astarion) approach to sex. laugh
But certainly not all of them! :-/

When i writed that, i had in mind Dragon Age: Inquisition ... there when protagonist dont show interest in certain characters, they are interested with each other instead. smile Love cant be stopped. laugh
It certainly creates funny situations, when two of your male companions are talking about their time spend together, bed included ... and much later in story, when you do quest related to one of those companions, he confess that he is Gay ... i was like "duh bro". laugh
Posted By: Rack Re: Current companions/romance options - 24/02/21 01:17 PM
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by Rack
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by Rack
I'd agree with pretty much all of this. I think a party of misfits can work without a straight man though that archetype definitely makes it work better. Maybe it's forthcoming.

One thing that personally annoys me is the evil characters are so far into chaotic stupid territory I can't see them being played by more than a tiny minority of players. If you only have 9 characters why have 3+ that are almost entirely impossible to work with?

Also having an option to romance Shadowheart when she comes across as a special needs child is pretty creepy.

How in the...How did you come to the conclusion that Shadowheart comes across as a special needs child?

Because that's how she acts at all times? She's a 13 year old goth kid who's really a xx year old half elf and she's just discovered lying and lies like a four year old. She hasn't developed theory of mind yet so she can't think a step ahead to how the other party would respond to the lie or realise how obvious it is. She'll sit there with Shar all over her face saying she didn't take the Shar.

I think you are seriously misjudging that character, first when does she actually lie about anything, she does not tell you everything, but I have not see in any playthrough where she lies. I mean it could have something to do with her memories being wiped? She tends to try and mess with the main character to see how much character he has, like after you have the devil meeting. I don't really see anything "goth" about her at all, and she doesn't broadcast she is even a Shar follower until a few conversations in you finally get it out of her (if you win a dice roll to do so). Usually at the windmill, or if you win the roll in the cave temple near the owlbear.

Not to mention, I think your letting your own preferences jade your view in regards to the companions and the characters when you make comments like "I think a party of misfits can work without a straight man" I mean what the heck does that have anything to do with anything? I think the party is very diverse and has a few characters with varied background. But EVEN IF they did portray her as a "Goth 13 year old", that is a far cry from a special needs child.

Thinking a party of misfits can work without a straight man is connected to the OP saying a party of misfits can't work without a straight man.

She broadcasts she's a Shar follower left and right but she doesn't realise that will cause people to realise she's a Shar follower because she hasn't developed theory of mind yet. She approves whenever you say something that isn't true because that's as far as she can understand deception and manipulation. She disapproves whenever you tell the truth because without theory of mind she doesn't understand how that's important to subversion.

So yeah, she's obsessed with darkness and lies and is stupid to an extent that can't really be considered normal for a teen.
Posted By: A Clown Re: Current companions/romance options - 24/02/21 02:10 PM
Kinda hate how most of our companions have a "dark secret motive" and will leave/kill the PC to get their goal. Obviously we dont know if this will change or not. But seeing all the comments about Gale and Astarion it just feels inevitable that they're going to be assholes for life.
I'm convinced on my theory about being able to change certain companions outlook through doing tedious "good or bad" deeds/dialogue but without changing them.
But I hope soon we get a chill companion who doesnt need to have a secret to be interesting or cool, just a lil companion who want to be buddies and help.

I also really want to be Wyll and Mizoras third please larian!
Posted By: Arne Re: Current companions/romance options - 25/02/21 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by A Clown
Kinda hate how most of our companions have a "dark secret motive" and will leave/kill the PC to get their goal. Obviously we dont know if this will change or not. But seeing all the comments about Gale and Astarion it just feels inevitable that they're going to be assholes for life.
I'm convinced on my theory about being able to change certain companions outlook through doing tedious "good or bad" deeds/dialogue but without changing them.
But I hope soon we get a chill companion who doesnt need to have a secret to be interesting or cool, just a lil companion who want to be buddies and help.

It just occured to me that Gale would just have been perfect as some kind of ~Dorian Gray storyline. A mage obsessed with his own beauty and fearful to age.
Posted By: Kylu Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/03/21 12:05 AM
WARNING SPOILERS you have been told, don't read if you haven't played through, please.

I just want to start this off by saying I personally have nothing against people's sexual orientation. Please don't take this post as an attack on yourself or anyone else. This posts is purely about the Companions in the game.
OK, with enough positive feelings Gale and Wyll give your male character the opportunity to "romance" them. I feel this goes against their obvious womanizing ways. It doesn't make any sense to me. Where with our favorite vampire it fits perfectly and having the 2 other guys takes away from him.
I also find it a little sad that the only 2 females at this point are "evil" which means to have a "romantic" opportunity players may have to play differently to how they would like to so they can unlock that option.

At Larian, maybe for Gale and Wyll change their sexuality by what the player chooses as there "dream' companion. IE if they have a Male Character and choose a Male "dream" companion then maybe keep Gale and/or Wyll as Bi/Pan?
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/03/21 02:54 AM
I don't think there's anything that states explicitly that they are only straight? Gale has an obsession with a god, and Wyll has a past with a female cambion, but there's nothing locking them to a sexuality?
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/03/21 03:24 AM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
I don't think there's anything that states explicitly that they are only straight? Gale has an obsession with a god, and Wyll has a past with a female cambion, but there's nothing locking them to a sexuality?

Gale and Wyll only (so far) flirt with female NPCs and will only (so far) sleep with Lae'zel at the party, not with each other or Astarion. They're very straight-coded outside of interactions with the PC. I'm not sure if Larian realized they were doing that.

Wyll doesn't even show interest in the PC until the party. And getting Gale to show interest - i.e. triggering his pre-party cutscenes - is stupidly difficult at the moment.
Posted By: Piff Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/03/21 03:58 AM
I've always been on the fence in regards to companion sexuality. Dragon Age had characters that had specific sexual orientations, or even racial preferences, and I know that the community were mixed about it. Other games have companions being "playersexual" where they will always flirt or romance the PC regardless of their various attributes.

I'd like to include the the idea of evil/good/law/chaos attributes amongst things like appearance, race, and gender too. I know your actions have a lot of influence in your companion approval level, but in other games (and, to a certain extent, this one too) its entirely possible to game the system and get max approval with companions despite your actions. I think it's a little odd for your good companion to try and romance the evil PC unless you're trying for some kind of redemption through love story, or you're taking the stance that your evil PC is fooling them into believing that you're a good person.

On the one hand, if done well it can create variation and add to overall feel of a character. But on the other hand, having playersexual companions give players more choice and agency to make their own story without the player having to cater too hard to the needs of the romance plot.
Posted By: Niara Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/03/21 05:28 AM
My main contention is that if you don't make companions player-sexual, then you end up with a situation like Kingmaker presented, where the game designers created:
1 heterosexual boy,
1 heterosexual girl,
1 bisexual male-female couple
1 bisexual pair of twin sisters

A whole bunch of other very nice companions that would have been excellent for romance but were not options (Ekun, Linzi, even Jubi if that's your thing... I'll probably pass on Nok-nok though).

But, the result was actually that, if you were playing a homosexual male, you had one single romance option available to you, and that one only if you were comfortable breaking him up with his current (female) partner. Heterosexual female characters had 2 possible options only (again, one of which involves breaking up the male from his current partner), while heterosexual male PCs had 5 options, and homosexual females had 4 (one involving required relationship breaking). It ended up being deeply dissatisfying, *despite* the game designers going to great lengths to try to include NPC characters of varied and different tastes and preferences. You simply can't cater to a fair spread of experience and options for everyone if you hard lock the romance options to pre-fixed sexualities.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/03/21 05:48 AM
Just a gentle advance reminder to avoid straying into discussions and opinions on real-world sexuality. Keep it BG3, please.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/03/21 05:56 AM
You don't have to play evil for Shadowheart approval. Despite her being a priestess of an evil goddess, she approves, if you do good things and be kind to animals. So I don't see the problem there. I'm not even sure, if you get a lot of approval with her, if you play evil.
Posted By: UnknownEvil Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/03/21 07:59 AM
As of noe it seems everyone is bisexual towards the player char. While this may be good to leave all options open for players it indeed clashes with the individual npc characters.

Cyberpunk2077 did it good. Some NPC were open to homosexual relationships, some not.

I would like it if larian decides the sexuality of the NPC while writing them and let them act accordingly.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/03/21 08:52 AM
Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
As of noe it seems everyone is bisexual towards the player char. While this may be good to leave all options open for players it indeed clashes with the individual npc characters.

Cyberpunk2077 did it good. Some NPC were open to homosexual relationships, some not.

I would like it if larian decides the sexuality of the NPC while writing them and let them act accordingly.

I am actually going to disagree with you, personally I found CP2077 relationships very limited. I am still pissed my male V couldn't date Judy, and was basically just offered one woman to date.
Posted By: Rack Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/03/21 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
As of noe it seems everyone is bisexual towards the player char. While this may be good to leave all options open for players it indeed clashes with the individual npc characters.

Cyberpunk2077 did it good. Some NPC were open to homosexual relationships, some not.

I would like it if larian decides the sexuality of the NPC while writing them and let them act accordingly.

I am actually going to disagree with you, personally I found CP2077 relationships very limited. I am still pissed my male V couldn't date Judy, and was basically just offered one woman to date.

Yeah I was going to point to Cyberpunk as an example of player-sexuality misfiring. Unless your character was bisexual you only ever had a single potential romantic partner, take it or leave it.
As I stated in my feedback, personally I found npc sexuality too fluid. So long as there are some options for people that are interested in romance arcs of whatever persuasion, that should be sufficient and I would think it should kinda be written into the character in question (eg npc X likes guys, npc Y likes girls, npc z will go either way in the right circumstances etc). I feel that's more true to life.

An alternative way of running it would be for the npcs to be flexible but there are certain steps you have to take/signs you have to give/dialogue options that have to be chosen in order to unlock either homosexual or heterosexual romance with them.

At the moment it's a free for all even where you've shown absolutely no romantic inclination of any sort.

Anyway, I'm not into romance in a big way and don't think it's anywhere near the top of the list of issues to be addressed.
Originally Posted by Niara
But, the result was actually that, if you were playing a homosexual male, you had one single romance option available to you, and that one only if you were comfortable breaking him up with his current (female) partner. Heterosexual female characters had 2 possible options only (again, one of which involves breaking up the male from his current partner), while heterosexual male PCs had 5 options, and homosexual females had 4 (one involving required relationship breaking). It ended up being deeply dissatisfying, *despite* the game designers going to great lengths to try to include NPC characters of varied and different tastes and preferences. You simply can't cater to a fair spread of experience and options for everyone if you hard lock the romance options to pre-fixed sexualities.

I agree with this. I personally feel that until we get a diverse mix of writers writing diverse characters, writers always tend to miss something in their portrayal of non-heterosexual characters. The characters often times can be summarized by a trope (bisexual rogues), have wayyyy too much of their personal story hinge on their sexuality as if it was their only personality trait, or straight up have less content than the heterosexual characters (limited as side characters). I just want normal characters who happen to be gay or bi. I feel that writers are able to write believable non-heterosexual characters when they write them NORMAL first. Instead of applying tropes, tokenizing them for representation, or fixating on niche focus groups that are only a small representation of an already minority community.

It's why playersexuality works - because the player gets to interpret the companions' sexualities and the writers get to just write characters.

I've watched Bioware wrestle with this for years and also have a personal bone to pick with them in this regard. Time and time again, they will have a strong female character and make her straight only (not that making strong female characters straight is bad, but that it's the only way Bioware knows how to write them). I could name you the character in each of their games, but the straw that broke the camels back for me is Cora from Andromeda. While I'd only feel comfortable arguing that characters like Handmaiden, Aveline, Cassandra could at least be bi - Cora on the other hand seemed to lend itself better to being written as a lesbian. But again, this strong female character only likes men and her whole plot line involves her deferring to said male main character, despite her being overqualified and better equipped at the job. They basically neutered her, and in the context of a straight romance it almost summarized how the company seems to approach characters like these.

When writers write non-heterosexual characters its almost as if they think there's only one way to write them. While even in BG3 there are some tropes, at least I get to choose how I want to interpret it. If you prefer to think of Gale and Wyll as straight and their propositions are just drunken compliments of your good deeds, you are actually able to play that way. If you think Gale took "married to science" too literally or think Wyll's attraction to women is probably tainted at this point, you can also choose to interpret it that way. You are supposed to play with what is and isn't stated to craft the game how you want. You are not limited, and that enhances the game.
Posted By: Ixal Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/03/21 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by Rack
Yeah I was going to point to Cyberpunk as an example of player-sexuality misfiring. Unless your character was bisexual you only ever had a single potential romantic partner, take it or leave it.

And that is fine. BG3 is not a dating simulator.
Not getting your preffered romance is much better than making every NPC bisexual/playersexual for romance while the rest of the character is written completely different (or having to write each NPC as bisexual in the first place).
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/03/21 01:59 PM
I like how BG3 handles it with all romances being bisexual/playersexual. It is fair to all, and I like having choices in an rpg.
Posted By: Frumpkis Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/03/21 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
I am actually going to disagree with you, personally I found CP2077 relationships very limited. I am still pissed my male V couldn't date Judy, and was basically just offered one woman to date.

Lol, same here. I played a male character for my first run through CP2077. Not being able to romance Judy, the most adorable NPC in the game, had me doing a complete second run through CP2077 as a female PC. And I don't even care that much about romance in games, but Judy was just so well-written as a character.

In BG3 I don't really care about romance because none of the companions are as well-written as Judy in CP2077. They're basically cardboard cutouts with issues. Fine as adventuring companions, but they're the kind of people that would have me keeping some distance in real life with all their problems.

Maybe the remaining 2 or 3 companion choices will be more likeable, but the Larian devs have this tendency to create NPCs with highly dramatic problems in their lives. That's not the only way to make an NPC interesting, but it seems to be Larian's main approach.
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/03/21 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
Originally Posted by Niara
But, the result was actually that, if you were playing a homosexual male, you had one single romance option available to you, and that one only if you were comfortable breaking him up with his current (female) partner. Heterosexual female characters had 2 possible options only (again, one of which involves breaking up the male from his current partner), while heterosexual male PCs had 5 options, and homosexual females had 4 (one involving required relationship breaking). It ended up being deeply dissatisfying, *despite* the game designers going to great lengths to try to include NPC characters of varied and different tastes and preferences. You simply can't cater to a fair spread of experience and options for everyone if you hard lock the romance options to pre-fixed sexualities.

I agree with this. I personally feel that until we get a diverse mix of writers writing diverse characters, writers always tend to miss something in their portrayal of non-heterosexual characters. The characters often times can be summarized by a trope (bisexual rogues), have wayyyy too much of their personal story hinge on their sexuality as if it was their only personality trait, or straight up have less content than the heterosexual characters (limited as side characters). I just want normal characters who happen to be gay or bi. I feel that writers are able to write believable non-heterosexual characters when they write them NORMAL first. Instead of applying tropes, tokenizing them for representation, or fixating on niche focus groups that are only a small representation of an already minority community.

It's why playersexuality works - because the player gets to interpret the companions' sexualities and the writers get to just write characters.

I've watched Bioware wrestle with this for years and also have a personal bone to pick with them in this regard. Time and time again, they will have a strong female character and make her straight only (not that making strong female characters straight is bad, but that it's the only way Bioware knows how to write them). I could name you the character in each of their games, but the straw that broke the camels back for me is Cora from Andromeda. While I'd only feel comfortable arguing that characters like Handmaiden, Aveline, Cassandra could at least be bi - Cora on the other hand seemed to lend itself better to being written as a lesbian. But again, this strong female character only likes men and her whole plot line involves her deferring to said male main character, despite her being overqualified and better equipped at the job. They basically neutered her, and in the context of a straight romance it almost summarized how the company seems to approach characters like these.

When writers write non-heterosexual characters its almost as if they think there's only one way to write them. While even in BG3 there are some tropes, at least I get to choose how I want to interpret it. If you prefer to think of Gale and Wyll as straight and their propositions are just drunken compliments of your good deeds, you are actually able to play that way. If you think Gale took "married to science" too literally or think Wyll's attraction to women is probably tainted at this point, you can also choose to interpret it that way. You are supposed to play with what is and isn't stated to craft the game how you want. You are not limited, and that enhances the game.

I don't get your argument. How is establishing a character's sexuality and then throwing it away 'cause reasons any better than not establishing anything and running with whatever?

I guess an argument could be made about Gale being pansexual, but Wyll isn't in any way, shape or form a bisexual Alistair, aka a character who could realistically run with whatever because he's written in such a way to leave his sexuality moderately open, he's a full on Dorian from Inquisition.

Wyll's whole backstory is all about a woman and in the game itself he flirts in his very banter with the female companions (both points are also true for Gale), but then it's all just thrown aside for convenience's sake. There's just a clash in writing and mechanics, just like in other elements of this game's plot.
Posted By: Rack Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/03/21 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by Rack
Yeah I was going to point to Cyberpunk as an example of player-sexuality misfiring. Unless your character was bisexual you only ever had a single potential romantic partner, take it or leave it.

And that is fine. BG3 is not a dating simulator.
Not getting your preffered romance is much better than making every NPC bisexual/playersexual for romance while the rest of the character is written completely different (or having to write each NPC as bisexual in the first place).

That's a fair take but there are still people who do want this stuff. Whichever way you go you'll make someone unhappy.

As far as BG3 goes I think it would probably go better by leaning towards characters having a set sexuality. Given how appealing the character's aren't it's going to feel like a conga line rejecting 8 companions in a row when that first party happens.
Posted By: Hilarian Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/03/21 07:58 PM
I don't like the way sexuality is being implemented in any single game. Bioware itself is also one of the companies that disappointed me more than anyone. DAO, they have the typical set up you expect from set sexuality, everyone is straight but 1 bi option for the "gay", interestingly enough, not denying the straight audience of anyone. These kinds of set up you see in almost every single game with set sexuality like Fire Emblem, Greedfall, Star Wars, Mass Effect, etc. The one bi option tends to be the flirtatious sleep with anything that move. Yeah, that's why people are bisexual; it must be because they have no standard, bravo for progressive. Straight options are always a lot more numerous, but then people would say "of course that would be the case, cause it reflects the real population". Yeah, I'm sorry for being part of the minority and has to accept the lesser number, thanks for reminding me of that, games. In these kind of situations, the gays are always being shorted, and they tend to either accept the option they were given, being full of stereotypes, or nothing. We get to DAI, we get into cases where they cut out the "gay" from bi Cullen and Solas from time constraint and things like that. Solas was an interesting situation because they said they removed it because of the depraved bisexuals. You can see that writers are being afraid of offending people, and write stuffs around eggshells because of stereotyping. It really limits the writing protentional when the writers see the characters as sexuality instead of person. Who they are attracted to have no bearing on who they are. Cullen's files for males were in the game and they didn't have time to add, essentially, gay audience wasn't important enough to add them in. With characters like Dorian, his story turns into a gay conversion therapy. His story is about him being gay, same as characters like Gil from Mass Effect Andromeda, a story about gay adoption, or Steve from Mass Effect 3, a story about gay dead husband. Their sexuality defined their story instead of just being a part of them. Bioware was one of the pioneers for gay romance in video games but they haven't done a single game where they represent the set sexuality right. I haven't seen any single game as the matter of fact.

The dating aspect has always been there, and it's not strange for all the opposite sex to just be attracted to you but when the same sex get added into the equation, it is when it becomes an issue. At the end of the day, it adds nothing to the story or characters outside of some people who could say, "oh, this character is gender gated, interesting". Meanwhile, it ruins the game for the people who are stuck with the 1 option they don't like just to satisfy some others who don't even use the features. Let people keep their set sexuality, I'm satisfied with my gay fiction and be able to romance the one I want instead of the one option the developers decide to either pull out of the hat at random or picked because they fit into certain gay stereotype.

Let's say this game has set sexuality, I already see people see the depraved bisexual Astarion as the bisexual and making Gale and Wyll as straight because they have history with females. It's funny when God of Wars developers said that Kratos could be bi or his son could be gay and it would fit their character. Meanwhile, people are angry because they couldn't see these characters as anything but straight.
Posted By: kanisatha Re: Current companions/romance options - 11/03/21 02:09 PM
Originally Posted by Icelyn
I like how BG3 handles it with all romances being bisexual/playersexual. It is fair to all, and I like having choices in an rpg.
Just for the record, bisexual and playersexual are not the same things. And when it comes to my games, I am okay with playersexual, but not to having all romance options be bisexual.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Current companions/romance options - 11/03/21 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Just for the record, bisexual and playersexual are not the same things. And when it comes to my games, I am okay with playersexual, but not to having all romance options be bisexual.
Which one is it for BG3? I wasn't sure. Either is fine with me.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: Current companions/romance options - 11/03/21 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Which one is it for BG3? I wasn't sure. Either is fine with me.
The term 'playersexual' has come to mean that the NPC will be attracted to the PC, no matter what their sex or gender. It is a way of allowing the player to develop relationships with the NPC that they choose, rather than the ones that the developers have chosen for their PC design choices.
Posted By: Aesir23 Re: Current companions/romance options - 12/03/21 08:24 PM
I'm more in favour of romances being playersexual rather than having a set sexuality. Both options have pros and cons but I'm more in favour of player freedom and players having options when it comes to who they want their character to romance if that's what they choose to do.

I used to be on the side of preferring set sexualities because I felt that it added to characterisation, which is one of the pros. My priorities regarding that changed after playing CP2077 due to how limited the choices were and due to the disparity when it came to content between the available romanceable characters.

What I will say in the case of BG3 is that I don't feel like some of the characters should come on so strongly at the party or they shouldn't all proposition you at that particular story beat. That gets really weird. At this point, I just have my character approach whoever I want them to romance first before talking to the other companions. You don't seem to get blatantly propositioned after that. Well, except for Lae'zel but I'm not surprised in her case.
Posted By: Niara Re: Current companions/romance options - 13/03/21 12:08 AM
I will argue strongly for the use of playersexuality in games with romance, for reasons I've stated; most importantly that a character's persona and characterisation should not revolve around their sexuality, and that making it a defining feature of a character is a failure in writing... but I will definitely concede that at the moment, Gale and Wyll do feel a little bit jarring in this respect with male PCs.

The issue is neither their backstories with established romantic female interests, nor with their propensity to be more flirtation with only the females, and definitively not so with males (In running banter, Gale firmly rebuffs Astarion, and can do so before his nature has been revealed); it is the combination of both of these things together that make their accepting of your interest - or in Wyll's case, his expressing interest to you - feel a bit out of place.

Because the significant female figures are important parts of their back stories, I'd strongly recommend that there be some dialogue to counterbalance this when starting a romance with them, as a male PC. Something to acknowledge their past while affirming their openness to this in a way that makes smoother sense. Gale currently reads (to me) as the sort that likely *hasn't* had a same-sex relationship before; his dialogue could include references to his surprise at how he's feeling about this development, and perhaps even some witty intellectual banter about new experiences. Wyll, on the other hand, reads to me as someone who, IF he will accept interest from or express interest in a male PC, probably is well aware of his interest in that sphere already, and might instead have dialogue that notes why he projects only female-oriented interest outwardly (and when he thinks it's about his heroic image we can thoroughly disabuse him of that notion...).

One important thing I feel makes playersexuality work well (though this is harder to manage) is that the characters CAN have predefined leanings that they default to without the player, but that they shouldn't be dominant enough to be defining traits, and that they should only show up when the player isn't pursuing their romance. This helps divorce the concept of playersexuality from general bi- or pansexuality.

Either way - I can understand criticisms at the moment that feel their male romance paths feel very out of the blue or ungrounded to their character else-wise... and that's something that can and should be fixed.
Posted By: JoB Re: Current companions/romance options - 13/03/21 12:12 AM
"Player"sexual is weak sauce that ruins the character.

Suddenly the NPC is less real. The NPC has no sexual identity, and verisimilitude is broken.

All to satisfy a masturbatory fantasy. As if that juvenile fantasy were more important than characters being three dimensional. Overall, I would have to say that I'm not a fan.
Posted By: Hilarian Re: Current companions/romance options - 13/03/21 05:26 AM
Originally Posted by Niara
I will argue strongly for the use of playersexuality in games with romance, for reasons I've stated; most importantly that a character's persona and characterisation should not revolve around their sexuality, and that making it a defining feature of a character is a failure in writing... but I will definitely concede that at the moment, Gale and Wyll do feel a little bit jarring in this respect with male PCs.

The issue is neither their backstories with established romantic female interests, nor with their propensity to be more flirtation with only the females, and definitively not so with males (In running banter, Gale firmly rebuffs Astarion, and can do so before his nature has been revealed); it is the combination of both of these things together that make their accepting of your interest - or in Wyll's case, his expressing interest to you - feel a bit out of place.

Because the significant female figures are important parts of their back stories, I'd strongly recommend that there be some dialogue to counterbalance this when starting a romance with them, as a male PC. Something to acknowledge their past while affirming their openness to this in a way that makes smoother sense. Gale currently reads (to me) as the sort that likely *hasn't* had a same-sex relationship before; his dialogue could include references to his surprise at how he's feeling about this development, and perhaps even some witty intellectual banter about new experiences. Wyll, on the other hand, reads to me as someone who, IF he will accept interest from or express interest in a male PC, probably is well aware of his interest in that sphere already, and might instead have dialogue that notes why he projects only female-oriented interest outwardly (and when he thinks it's about his heroic image we can thoroughly disabuse him of that notion...).

One important thing I feel makes playersexuality work well (though this is harder to manage) is that the characters CAN have predefined leanings that they default to without the player, but that they shouldn't be dominant enough to be defining traits, and that they should only show up when the player isn't pursuing their romance. This helps divorce the concept of playersexuality from general bi- or pansexuality.

Either way - I can understand criticisms at the moment that feel their male romance paths feel very out of the blue or ungrounded to their character else-wise... and that's something that can and should be fixed.
Personally, I would like to have some references to the player's gender in some ways since the whole bisexual is pretty much just playersexual in-game. There is really no difference, they act and talk to you the exact same way, so I don't see how it adds more character to them, considered the only difference is that they reject you if they're "gated". At the end of the day, the whole gated thing essentially just limit the options for people whose features they don't even use, meanwhile, gated reasons ranging from arbitrary to downright offensive stereotyping.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Current companions/romance options - 13/03/21 05:40 AM
I prefer Playersexual tbh, it allows the player to construct their narrative and romance exactly who they want.
Posted By: vometia Re: Current companions/romance options - 13/03/21 05:44 AM
Originally Posted by JoB
"All to satisfy a masturbatory fantasy. As if that juvenile fantasy were more important than characters being three dimensional. Overall, I would have to say that I'm not a fan.

Reel it in, please.
Posted By: JoB Re: Current companions/romance options - 13/03/21 06:05 AM
Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by JoB
"All to satisfy a masturbatory fantasy. As if that juvenile fantasy were more important than characters being three dimensional. Overall, I would have to say that I'm not a fan.

Reel it in, please.

I take it you enjoy the fantasy and don't like different opinions?
Posted By: vometia Re: Current companions/romance options - 13/03/21 08:05 AM
Originally Posted by JoB
I take it you enjoy the fantasy and don't like different opinions?

Different opinions are fine; pointlessly disruptive ones aren't. You're contributing the latter and this is your last warning.
Posted By: JoB Re: Current companions/romance options - 13/03/21 12:44 PM
Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by JoB
I take it you enjoy the fantasy and don't like different opinions?

Different opinions are fine; pointlessly disruptive ones aren't. You're contributing the latter and this is your last warning.

I stand by my opinion.

In fact, this board is full of people disagreeing vehemently with one another.

Again, I stand by my opinion, which I am offering to LARIAN, not you.

If that means you are done warning me and somehow have the authority to ban me, then do what you need to do.

I have zero interest in the romance system as it is set up. I believe it is intensely flawed, masturbatory, and juvenile.

Is that clear enough?
Posted By: vometia Re: Current companions/romance options - 13/03/21 01:44 PM
And now I need to do the paperwork. :|
Posted By: kanisatha Re: Current companions/romance options - 13/03/21 03:33 PM
Well it doesn't have to be one or the other. My approach would be one each of straight male, straight female, gay male, gay female, bisexual male, bisexual female, and then if the game is going to be able to afford more than these six base romance options make all those additional options playersexual. Provides for a good range and should keep everyone happy.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 13/03/21 04:54 PM
I dunno ...
On one hand, i completely understand that it may be frustrating for some people who really, really, REALLY want to romance Dorian (DA:Inq) but sadly play female. :-/
On the other hand it seem really odd that some characters have isues with certain races (Shadowheart > Gith ... Lae'zel > Tieflings ...) but they are completely willing to hop in players bed, even if s/he is one of them. :-/

It may seem a little better, if player will be the one who made first step ... right now, as litteraly everyone is offering "night company" at tiefling party. :-/
It just seem weird. :-/
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Current companions/romance options - 13/03/21 05:21 PM
I would probably be more fine with all the companions being playersexual if they weren't all playerhorny. And, at least as of a patch or 2 ago, incredibly jealous and snaky if I slept with another companion.
Originally Posted by Niara
I will argue strongly for the use of playersexuality in games with romance, for reasons I've stated; most importantly that a character's persona and characterisation should not revolve around their sexuality, and that making it a defining feature of a character is a failure in writing... but I will definitely concede that at the moment, Gale and Wyll do feel a little bit jarring in this respect with male PCs
[snip]
One important thing I feel makes playersexuality work well (though this is harder to manage) is that the characters CAN have predefined leanings that they default to without the player, but that they shouldn't be dominant enough to be defining traits, and that they should only show up when the player isn't pursuing their romance. This helps divorce the concept of playersexuality from general bi- or pansexuality.
Strongly agree with you that, if playersexuality is implemented, then companions should still have predefined leanings. Every additional opinion or preference an NPC has makes them more well-defined characters. And, as you suggest in the snipped portion of your post, having dialogue that reveals those preferences and then explains why they're attracted to the PC and how that relates to those preferences is great.

Without that additional dialogue/explanation, however, I think I'd prefer that some NPCs only be romaceable by certain genders. Like Gale: his history and party banter strongly suggest straight so it breaks a bit of immersion/his characterization that he's so willing to sleep with a male PC.

I'll qualify the above with: there needs to be enough companions to not make this overly restrictive. If BG3 eventually has 8 companions, then there could be 4 who have a set sexuality (the combinations of male/female and straight/gay), 2 that have stated preferences but can be woo'd regardless of PC gender, and then 2 that are openly bi- or pansexual. This would allow anyone the option of 6 romanceable PCs (3 if you only romance companions of a single gender).

tl;dr: Basically what @kanisatha said, but I'm fine with all companions being playersexual as long as any conflicts between their banter/history and their attraction to the PC is explained.
Posted By: Hilarian Re: Current companions/romance options - 13/03/21 09:08 PM
Even when we look at current games that have set sexuality that are releasing this year, we get Kingmaker that somehow still has all the females being available to the straight males. The issue is that people are still afraid of offending the biggest consumers when we look at set sexuality, and that is why these kinds of things failed. Developers are still consciously or subconsciously assign sexuality based on sales and stereotypes. It's not about being realistic when their intention is catered. It's the inherent flaw when we look at commercial games and having to decide who they should prioritize. Even games like Cyberpunk, there were a very unequal content distribution between the option.

The issue I have with this romance personally is more or less how out of the blue it is when it comes to the companions being interested in you. There should be romantic moments, and point where you express interest. Some could hit you up just for sex like Lae'zel, but I would kind of prefer for characters to naturally grow to be interested in you instead of the sudden interest out of nowhere at the party, even if you don't interact much with them.
Posted By: vometia Re: Current companions/romance options - 14/03/21 07:51 AM
Originally Posted by Hilarian
Even games like Cyberpunk, there were a very unequal content distribution between the option.

Hmm? CP77 had Panam as the romance option for straight male characters; River as the straight female PC romance; Kerry for gay males; Judy for lesbians. Aside from a few flings e.g. Meredith Stout that was it.

Unless you mean equal game time, then yeah; Panam and Judy did pretty well, River got, well, his own quest line, Kerry was very late game only, though the actual romance/post romance stuff for all characters was a bit threadbare IMHO.
Posted By: Hilarian Re: Current companions/romance options - 14/03/21 08:36 AM
Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by Hilarian
Even games like Cyberpunk, there were a very unequal content distribution between the option.

Hmm? CP77 had Panam as the romance option for straight male characters; River as the straight female PC romance; Kerry for gay males; Judy for lesbians. Aside from a few flings e.g. Meredith Stout that was it.

Unless you mean equal game time, then yeah; Panam and Judy did pretty well, River got, well, his own quest line, Kerry was very late game only, though the actual romance/post romance stuff for all characters was a bit threadbare IMHO.
That's what I mean. If you look at the straight options, they tend to the plot relevant characters, and the gay option tends to be optional and very missable in almost every game I have play. As with Cyberpunk, you have to meet with Panam and Judy, and their contents are often a lot more than what you get with River and Kerry. When you look at the lesbian options in these games, there is the issue of the male gaze. If you look at a lot of Japanese games, there are surprisingly large amount of lesbians but almost nothing on gay in most mainstream games. Even games like Fire Emblem Three Houses, you have 1 gay option that is pretty hidden and could even interpret as friendship. You then have everyone available to straight players and 4 lesbian options, 2 of those options are with the main characters. There was a big controversy over the number and option. It has always been that way with Japanese games and even Western games, but it was just so blatant that the fans speak up. Even when you look at the Kingmaker series, you have everyone available to straight players then lesbian players get second most amount then gay and straight females. You can see why I tend to have issues with set sexuality. It's not about representation. It also tends to be about pandering like what people accuse playersexual audience of(to use the word), but the issue is who the audience that the developers are catering to. It is something that I already said. I understand that straight players are the majority, and I understand that from a sales perspective, you would want to cater to them, but if that's the case, I would rather for everyone to be playersexual for these kinds of blatant unequal treatments. If they actually do it earnestly and giving equal treatment in contents then I don't mind that, but the issue is that every single game with set sexuality, the gays tend to get the short end.
Posted By: Rack Re: Current companions/romance options - 14/03/21 11:51 AM
In Cyberpunk it's gay men and straight women who get the short end but it's generally whoever isn't straight men.

I'd lean towards splitting the difference. Make set sexualities but have an option that lets the player override them. Then just one character max per playthrough is changed and honestly it's not that big of a stretch that one person is bi but leans mostly towards a single gender.
Posted By: vometia Re: Current companions/romance options - 14/03/21 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by Rack
I'd lean towards splitting the difference. Make set sexualities but have an option that lets the player override them. Then just one character max per playthrough is changed and honestly it's not that big of a stretch that one person is bi but leans mostly towards a single gender.

I dunno. If someone is bi, make them bi; but I think that being a sort of default for everybody (with or without coercion!) doesn't really appeal to me even if it does result in fewer "options"! IMHO it makes characters less individual and more generic; and I think I'm too used to characters in TV programmes often ending up being "whatever the script writers want at the time"-sexual which feels a bit cheap, though tbh that's just a subset of characters undergoing complete personality changes, something soaps in particular are especially guilty of doing. Running with CP77 as an example, there's a significant amount of pressure to make Judy "bi" because Panam isn't enough choice for some players, and I hope CDPR doesn't cave in a future patch as Bioware reportedly did with Jack before ME2's release, who was apparently supposed to be bi or lesbian but a decision came from on high that some media outlets might object so it was better to cave in advance, which effectively resulted in no female/female LIs (based on the assertion that Liara doesn't count as Asari are monogendered; still haven't made my mind up whether or not I agree with that, but y'know).

Sticking with Bioware, IMHO I found the characters in Inquisition more interesting from that point of view as they all had clearly defined preferences compared to DA2's playersexual approach. I don't think Dorian or Sera would've worked nearly as well if that wasn't the case, though I do note Sera in particular got a lot of hate and I can't help but suspect this was a significant part of that. OTOH, trying to romance her as an elfy mage, neither of which she approved of, was quite interesting but I think that would've been undermined if it was a case of "why not make it elfy mage guy for the hat trick".

Er anyway, I seem to have meandered away from whatever my point was originally.
Posted By: Frumpkis Re: Current companions/romance options - 14/03/21 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by Rack
In Cyberpunk it's gay men and straight women who get the short end but it's generally whoever isn't straight men.

I'd lean towards splitting the difference. Make set sexualities but have an option that lets the player override them. Then just one character max per playthrough is changed and honestly it's not that big of a stretch that one person is bi but leans mostly towards a single gender.

Letting the player override NPC orientation would cripple the game writer's ability to develop the NPC stories and backgrounds before they're romanced.

For example, we learn about Judy's orientation in CP2077 through the story of what happens to her friend and presumed lover Evelyn. That whole side campaign is an organic part of the main plot line. Judy is the most developed NPC in that game, but there is one sequence with Kerry during the Silverhand flashbacks where you see him making out with another guy backstage after a concert, so you don't have to guess what his orientation is. Things like this help establish who the characters are, and I think allowing the player to just flip a "bi" switch if you want to romance them works against character development.

Anyway, it's a fun discussion but all of this is somewhat moot for BG3, because Larian obviously isn't going that deep into developing this side of the companions.
Posted By: Rack Re: Current companions/romance options - 14/03/21 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by Frumpkis
Letting the player override NPC orientation would cripple the game writer's ability to develop the NPC stories and backgrounds before they're romanced.

For example, we learn about Judy's orientation in CP2077 through the story of what happens to her friend and presumed lover Evelyn. That whole side campaign is an organic part of the main plot line. Judy is the most developed NPC in that game, but there is one sequence with Kerry during the Silverhand flashbacks where you see him making out with another guy backstage after a concert, so you don't have to guess what his orientation is. Things like this help establish who the characters are, and I think allowing the player to just flip a "bi" switch if you want to romance them works against character development.

Anyway, it's a fun discussion but all of this is somewhat moot for BG3, because Larian obviously isn't going that deep into developing this side of the companions.

When I say split the difference I mean still do that but just let the player flip a switch in the options which lets them still romance characters where the story doesn't really support it. Just add the bare minimum of voice lines so the player doesn't get misgendered. It's not a perfect solution for anyone but as a compromise neither side has to give up much. If you don't want character's backgrounds to be undermined don't enable the option and everything is exactly as you want. If you want everyone to be player-sexual then you get that but some of the stories won't make quite as much sense as they should, which is almost what you were asking for in the first place.

Originally Posted by vometia
I dunno. If someone is bi, make them bi; but I think that being a sort of default for everybody (with or without coercion!) doesn't really appeal to me even if it does result in fewer "options"! IMHO it makes characters less individual and more generic; and I think I'm too used to characters in TV programmes often ending up being "whatever the script writers want at the time"-sexual which feels a bit cheap, though tbh that's just a subset of characters undergoing complete personality changes, something soaps in particular are especially guilty of doing. Running with CP77 as an example, there's a significant amount of pressure to make Judy "bi" because Panam isn't enough choice for some players, and I hope CDPR doesn't cave in a future patch as Bioware reportedly did with Jack before ME2's release, who was apparently supposed to be bi or lesbian but a decision came from on high that some media outlets might object so it was better to cave in advance, which effectively resulted in no female/female LIs (based on the assertion that Liara doesn't count as Asari are monogendered; still haven't made my mind up whether or not I agree with that, but y'know).

I guess the question I have about this is why do you hope CDPR don't cave? If it's made explicit she isn't bi and the male/female Judy romance is non-canon would it still bother you players are able to access it? For myself it's the Panam relationship I'm locked out of and I have a suspicion the only relationship they'll change is Judy's. That change would never affect me but if they were to shift Kerry's relationship I'd never really notice his character made less sense if the decision were left in the players hands. But it would be nice for me if Panam got a meta dialogue pick where it says "She's going to reject you because she's straight. Do you want to break the narrative slightly to make Panam bi?" that only appeared if I selected the appropriate option in a menu.
Posted By: kanisatha Re: Current companions/romance options - 14/03/21 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by Frumpkis
[...] allowing the player to just flip a "bi" switch if you want to romance them works against character development.
This is it exactly. This is what I want games to categorically avoid doing. We seem to have somehow lost the main point of a role-playing game and are veering off into some sort of dating sim here where everyone is bi so every companion can be romanced by everyone. And even then it is still unfair, because even though a bi character works fine mechanically for a gay/straight player, bi is romantically not at all the same as a gay/straight preference.
Posted By: vometia Re: Current companions/romance options - 14/03/21 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by Rack
I guess the question I have about this is why do you hope CDPR don't cave? If it's made explicit she isn't bi and the male/female Judy romance is non-canon would it still bother you players are able to access it? For myself it's the Panam relationship I'm locked out of and I have a suspicion the only relationship they'll change is Judy's. That change would never affect me but if they were to shift Kerry's relationship I'd never really notice his character made less sense if the decision were left in the players hands. But it would be nice for me if Panam got a meta dialogue pick where it says "She's going to reject you because she's straight. Do you want to break the narrative slightly to make Panam bi?" that only appeared if I selected the appropriate option in a menu.

There's not a great deal I can add that I haven't already said; I think it dilutes the character and makes them more vague, especially if you can just flip a switch to make them something else. As Frumpkis pointed out, there's already an established back-story both with her current love life and her childhood, the significance of which is very significantly diminished by a personality change of that magnitude.

I suppose there's also the RL parallels where some people think that approach also works with real people, which isn't relevant to a game but makes me feel a bit icky.

Edit: but worse than all that, I just saw someone suggest Nibbles be replaced by a different "less ugly" cat. D:
Posted By: Dez Re: Current companions/romance options - 20/03/21 01:11 PM
Quick summery of my opinions regarding the current companions (I have seen all romances on YouTube since well... I went romance-less laugh ):

* Lae'zel - I like her character as a player, but her dominating nature made no sense for my PC which actually just ended up killing her. My character at release will probably not kill her (instantly, anyways) - but she most certainly won't be romanced. As a player, though, I am happy she exists because a character like hers is certainly needed, although I think that Mintara and Lae'zel has a bit too many similarities, sometimes...

* Wyll - Probably the most logical choice for my PC - but still a miss. I could make a list out of all the reasons he didn't make it - but I'll settle with saying: "too much ego". As a player, I am not a huge fan of him either, but neither do I dislike him, though. My current character and my final character will definitely try to help him - but I doubt the later will romance him.

* Gale - Could work, but his obsession with his goddess puts my character on high alert (and I am also quite certain he is a lot darker than he appears to be, I'll bring him on full release just to confirm :D). While goddess-obsessed characters can make for good companions (looking at you, Tristian, you're as sweet as sugar), I'll admit my current experience with good/neutral oriented religious-obsessed characters is decent at best.

* Astarion - Hard pass for my character, but oh dear do I enjoy him as a player. His snarky comments are amazing, but I cannot give myself a good RP reason to bed him nor romance him. :']

* Shadowheart - Potential, and might be of interest later on. But as it is right now, she is like Gale - she puts my character on high alert. My PC wants to help her, but there is no way she'd risk going into a relationship with her as things are rightt now. Absolutely no way.


Personally, I cannot see my PC making sense with any current companion, however I am looking forward to taking part in their story though other players. :] And I am looking forward to seeing what companions the future holds for us. Personally, if we're going to discuss romances in other games - there's only one character that I'd romance in a heartbeat without consider anybody else: Aloth from PoE. <3 I would settle for a Ifan from DOS2 too, though. Both makes much more sense for my PC. laugh But it is not like romancing is a must for me - if I don't feel it coming naturally for my PC during the playthrough, then I'll just do without and read up on the missed stories online. :] Looking forward to see our upcoming companions, in case there is any potential there!




Regarding player-oriented NPCs - I personally do not care. A well-written character is not going to be less well written just cause they'd go for the PC regardless of gender. I'll find it hard to believe that there's many characters whose sexuality matter so much for their personality that they'd get completely ruined for going both ways - obviously, there are cases where it matters... But, in my opinion, that would be the minority of companions (if any). In general I am always for more player options so unless there is a specific reason for the characters to not be player-oriented, then I don't think they shouldn't be.
Posted By: Arne Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/03/21 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by Dez
* Gale - Could work, but his obsession with his goddess puts my character on high alert (and I am also quite certain he is a lot darker than he appears to be, I'll bring him on full release just to confirm :D). While goddess-obsessed characters can make for good companions (looking at you, Tristian, you're as sweet as sugar), I'll admit my current experience with good/neutral oriented religious-obsessed characters is decent at best.

It's funny how many people here have played Pathfinder Kingmaker.

About the 'playersexuality' discussion: It is the convenient, lazy solution. Of course I was angry I had to play a girl to romance Suvi in Mass Effect - the arguably cutest one with an accent to die for. But at the same time, it was adding to her character. If characters always do what the player wants, they are less interesting, less believable. Characters need to disagree or even attack the player.
Posted By: Hilarian Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/03/21 03:20 AM
Originally Posted by Arne
Originally Posted by Dez
* Gale - Could work, but his obsession with his goddess puts my character on high alert (and I am also quite certain he is a lot darker than he appears to be, I'll bring him on full release just to confirm :D). While goddess-obsessed characters can make for good companions (looking at you, Tristian, you're as sweet as sugar), I'll admit my current experience with good/neutral oriented religious-obsessed characters is decent at best.

It's funny how many people here have played Pathfinder Kingmaker.

About the 'playersexuality' discussion: It is the convenient, lazy solution. Of course I was angry I had to play a girl to romance Suvi in Mass Effect - the arguably cutest one with an accent to die for. But at the same time, it was adding to her character. If characters always do what the player wants, they are less interesting, less believable. Characters need to disagree or even attack the player.
I'll take lazy over discriminatory policy any day. The issue is that there hasn't been a single game developed that give equal attention to gay characters, it's also heavily one sided toward the straight players, which I already said to be expected as it's the majority of the players. In regard to your example, you have a bunch of choices already, so you just happen to stumble upon a gay character, you could just say that maybe you could go for them, but for the gay characters with limited options, you don't get to have that luxury. There were a big commotion with Mass Effect Andromeda because the options are as you said very LAZY for the gay options, both of the gay options are non companions, computer generated faces, with little contents. The supposed bi option was made for female, during the romantic scene, his eyes didn't look at the male character because he looks down to the height of the females, essentially a lazy mod where they just replace the female with male. There hasn't been a single single game out there that do set sexuality right. I would take lazy over intentionally unequal contents any day.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/03/21 04:29 AM
Originally Posted by Hilarian
I'll take lazy over discriminatory policy any day. The issue is that there hasn't been a single game developed that give equal attention to gay characters, it's also heavily one sided toward the straight players, which I already said to be expected as it's the majority of the players. In regard to your example, you have a bunch of choices already, so you just happen to stumble upon a gay character, you could just say that maybe you could go for them, but for the gay characters with limited options, you don't get to have that luxury. There were a big commotion with Mass Effect Andromeda because the options are as you said very LAZY for the gay options, both of the gay options are non companions, computer generated faces, with little contents. The supposed bi option was made for female, during the romantic scene, his eyes didn't look at the male character because he looks down to the height of the females, essentially a lazy mod where they just replace the female with male. There hasn't been a single single game out there that do set sexuality right. I would take lazy over intentionally unequal contents any day.

That's why there should be roughly ~equal number of options for any player preferences. We are expecting 8 companions, they can easily be:
1 straight male, 1 straight female, 1 gay male, 1 gay female
4 bi-/player-sexual companions of differing genders

This allows for everyone to have 3-6 romance options in any given playthrough, depending on their willingness to date companions of a gender they might not be attracted to IRL.
For comparison, 8 entirely playersexual companions results in 4-8 options depending on the same. Larian could make fully half of the companions attracted to a single gender and it would at worst reduce romance options down from 4 to 3.

Of course, companions shouldn't be defined entirely by their orientation. But all good companions should have defined preferences/desires/opinions, including about their sexuality. And their sexuality should preferably be consistent with their backstory/relationship history and any dialogue (flirting) between them and other companions.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/03/21 04:52 AM
Allow certain opportunities to flirt during dialogues. Maybe not start to finish, but it least early on allow players the ability to have minor flirting that if the player flirts later dialogues provide more flirting options.

My big issue isn't personalities as much as no leading up to sex. It is SO lacking romance. My first playthrough, I was stunned that anyone wanted to have sex with me. There was nothing leading up to it.

Also, don't have characters solicit sex. The player should initiate, and if the right flirting options are chosen it builds up to something more.

When I talked to Wyll and he hit on my main, I was floored. I didn't get a homosexual vibe from him at all during the game. We were more like buds. Im not homosexual, and at was not fun. I can only assume the same if you are the opposite. Let the player lead. That way they can choose who they want. Having EVERYONE want to have sex with you is also not fun or realistic.
Astarion, I can understand hitting on everyone and coming right out with it. Lae'zel too. The others. No.

I think it is true that every is assuming a lot about these characters. I think Lae'zel also has something HUGE she is hiding. She's softer than she pretends and me thinks she is a bit TOO zealous. I think she's definitely done something against her people. That's why she's so scared. Shes done something to jeopardize her future with her people. Why was she on the nautiloid as a prisoner? Why does she desperately need your help so much? Remember the first mind touch? A Githyanki silver sword was mentioned, but she's not Kith. Did she steal one, kill a Kith...

Gale is hiding way more. Just look at the art. That scene with him and lightning and undead. He looked insane. I like Gale but his secret told a different side to him...a power hungry obsessive side.

Wyll is also a raging ball of anger under that calm exterior. His secret definitely has hardly had the surface scratched. Same with Astarion and Shadowheart.

Larian has 3 acts to tell their stories. They have to reveal some secrets this early or it'll feel too rushed later. I want more character interaction not less. We need more leading up to romance.

Honestly, though, romance shouldn't even be possible for most until later acts. Astarion, I could see. He's free and looking to experience life again. Everyone else. No. Needs more relationship development first.

As for secrets, I disagree. They aren't really secrets. These are just facts about their lives that over time they are willing to share once trust is built. Gale, for example, keeps warning you right from the beginning not to let him die. Wyll's mind link tells you a bit about his and if he's with you fighting gobbos he says he'll open up later without much effort.

Astarion is definitely a secret and revealed early, but it is because he's having a hard time hiding it. Totally believable to me. Shadowheart requires some high difficulty rolls to get her to open up, so hers is definitely a secret and not really that easy to get her to spill. I think it was 2 difficulty rolls of 15 or higher?

So not really all secrets. They just don't share right away for typical reasons. They're getting to know one another.

But Shadowheart does make it obvious she has a secret and then shuts you down. Maybe her lack of ability to hide it is why her intelligence is so low. Maybe that's why she can't remember anything. Maybe she's actually not trusted with the secrets she knows.
Posted By: Zenith Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/03/21 09:36 AM
Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by Rack
I guess the question I have about this is why do you hope CDPR don't cave? If it's made explicit she isn't bi and the male/female Judy romance is non-canon would it still bother you players are able to access it? For myself it's the Panam relationship I'm locked out of and I have a suspicion the only relationship they'll change is Judy's. That change would never affect me but if they were to shift Kerry's relationship I'd never really notice his character made less sense if the decision were left in the players hands. But it would be nice for me if Panam got a meta dialogue pick where it says "She's going to reject you because she's straight. Do you want to break the narrative slightly to make Panam bi?" that only appeared if I selected the appropriate option in a menu.

There's not a great deal I can add that I haven't already said; I think it dilutes the character and makes them more vague, especially if you can just flip a switch to make them something else. As Frumpkis pointed out, there's already an established back-story both with her current love life and her childhood, the significance of which is very significantly diminished by a personality change of that magnitude.

I suppose there's also the RL parallels where some people think that approach also works with real people, which isn't relevant to a game but makes me feel a bit icky.

Edit: but worse than all that, I just saw someone suggest Nibbles be replaced by a different "less ugly" cat. D:

Probably an Arasaka shill jealous of those who have cats.
Posted By: Arne Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/03/21 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Allow certain opportunities to flirt during dialogues. Maybe not start to finish, but it least early on allow players the ability to have minor flirting that if the player flirts later dialogues provide more flirting options.

That would be more or less like Mass Effect. You get a little heart next to the dialogue option, so you know you are flirting.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
My big issue isn't personalities as much as no leading up to sex. It is SO lacking romance. My first playthrough, I was stunned that anyone wanted to have sex with me. There was nothing leading up to it.

Larian has 3 acts to tell their stories. They have to reveal some secrets this early or it'll feel too rushed later. I want more character interaction not less. We need more leading up to romance.

Also, don't have characters solicit sex. The player should initiate, and if the right flirting options are chosen it builds up to something more.

I suspect early access is rushing things a bit to get feedback from players. Which is ok in my opinion, since it's early access & it's fine to try things out.

As for sex, it depends on the character. If it's a barbarian warrior guy/girl, it might make sense if they are blunt. If it's a shy & meek character, it would not.

Originally Posted by Hilarian
I'll take lazy over discriminatory policy any day. The issue is that there hasn't been a single game developed that give equal attention to gay characters, it's also heavily one sided toward the straight players, which I already said to be expected as it's the majority of the players.

There are literally hundreds of games which specifically target homosexuals. And some of them are actually quite good. If you need pointers, I can provide them.

The statement that every game would somehow have to give exactly equal attention to heterosexual or homosexual characters doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by Hilarian
In regard to your example, you have a bunch of choices already, so you just happen to stumble upon a gay character, you could just say that maybe you could go for them, but for the gay characters with limited options, you don't get to have that luxury.

I specifically praised that Zuvi's rejection of a male player character makes her character more believable.
Posted By: Hilarian Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/03/21 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by Arne
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Allow certain opportunities to flirt during dialogues. Maybe not start to finish, but it least early on allow players the ability to have minor flirting that if the player flirts later dialogues provide more flirting options.

That would be more or less like Mass Effect. You get a little heart next to the dialogue option, so you know you are flirting.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
My big issue isn't personalities as much as no leading up to sex. It is SO lacking romance. My first playthrough, I was stunned that anyone wanted to have sex with me. There was nothing leading up to it.

Larian has 3 acts to tell their stories. They have to reveal some secrets this early or it'll feel too rushed later. I want more character interaction not less. We need more leading up to romance.

Also, don't have characters solicit sex. The player should initiate, and if the right flirting options are chosen it builds up to something more.

I suspect early access is rushing things a bit to get feedback from players. Which is ok in my opinion, since it's early access & it's fine to try things out.

As for sex, it depends on the character. If it's a barbarian warrior guy/girl, it might make sense if they are blunt. If it's a shy & meek character, it would not.

Originally Posted by Hilarian
I'll take lazy over discriminatory policy any day. The issue is that there hasn't been a single game developed that give equal attention to gay characters, it's also heavily one sided toward the straight players, which I already said to be expected as it's the majority of the players.

There are literally hundreds of games which specifically target homosexuals. And some of them are actually quite good. If you need pointers, I can provide them.

The statement that every game would somehow have to give exactly equal attention to heterosexual or homosexual characters doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by Hilarian
In regard to your example, you have a bunch of choices already, so you just happen to stumble upon a gay character, you could just say that maybe you could go for them, but for the gay characters with limited options, you don't get to have that luxury.

I specifically praised that Zuvi's rejection of a male player character makes her character more believable.
I know games out there that made for homosexuality, but that doesn't relate to how I want the games I play, especially mainstream, to be discriminatory. That's like saying if you don't like Baldur's Gate, just play King's Maker. I play specifically a game because I like certain elements in this game that is not in other games and romance is just a part of it.

See? we are at an impasse, you think it's okay to have slanted numbers simply being a majority while the other group should just bear with it, and I disagree since I just don't satisfy with that because the underlying reasons. That's why I prefer the playersexual simply because I don't have to deal with those discriminatory where my worth is judged based on something I can't change.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/03/21 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Allow certain opportunities to flirt during dialogues. Maybe not start to finish, but it least early on allow players the ability to have minor flirting that if the player flirts later dialogues provide more flirting options.

My big issue isn't personalities as much as no leading up to sex. It is SO lacking romance. My first playthrough, I was stunned that anyone wanted to have sex with me. There was nothing leading up to it.

Also, don't have characters solicit sex. The player should initiate, and if the right flirting options are chosen it builds up to something more.

When I talked to Wyll and he hit on my main, I was floored. I didn't get a homosexual vibe from him at all during the game. We were more like buds. Im not homosexual, and at was not fun. I can only assume the same if you are the opposite. Let the player lead. That way they can choose who they want. Having EVERYONE want to have sex with you is also not fun or realistic.
Astarion, I can understand hitting on everyone and coming right out with it. Lae'zel too. The others. No.

I think it is true that every is assuming a lot about these characters. I think Lae'zel also has something HUGE she is hiding. She's softer than she pretends and me thinks she is a bit TOO zealous. I think she's definitely done something against her people. That's why she's so scared. Shes done something to jeopardize her future with her people. Why was she on the nautiloid as a prisoner? Why does she desperately need your help so much? Remember the first mind touch? A Githyanki silver sword was mentioned, but she's not Kith. Did she steal one, kill a Kith...

Gale is hiding way more. Just look at the art. That scene with him and lightning and undead. He looked insane. I like Gale but his secret told a different side to him...a power hungry obsessive side.

Wyll is also a raging ball of anger under that calm exterior. His secret definitely has hardly had the surface scratched. Same with Astarion and Shadowheart.

Larian has 3 acts to tell their stories. They have to reveal some secrets this early or it'll feel too rushed later. I want more character interaction not less. We need more leading up to romance.

Honestly, though, romance shouldn't even be possible for most until later acts. Astarion, I could see. He's free and looking to experience life again. Everyone else. No. Needs more relationship development first.

As for secrets, I disagree. They aren't really secrets. These are just facts about their lives that over time they are willing to share once trust is built. Gale, for example, keeps warning you right from the beginning not to let him die. Wyll's mind link tells you a bit about his and if he's with you fighting gobbos he says he'll open up later without much effort.

Astarion is definitely a secret and revealed early, but it is because he's having a hard time hiding it. Totally believable to me. Shadowheart requires some high difficulty rolls to get her to open up, so hers is definitely a secret and not really that easy to get her to spill. I think it was 2 difficulty rolls of 15 or higher?

So not really all secrets. They just don't share right away for typical reasons. They're getting to know one another.

But Shadowheart does make it obvious she has a secret and then shuts you down. Maybe her lack of ability to hide it is why her intelligence is so low. Maybe that's why she can't remember anything. Maybe she's actually not trusted with the secrets she knows.

Many scenes are skipped, cuz they are not finalized. Many scenes with Astarion, for example, are pulled out. And in these scenes, MC takes a romantic interest in Astarion. And right now Astarion himself has at least 2 scenes where he shows his interest. In short, I think we should have more cutscenes, Larian just still working on them. It's possible that other companions have more scenes too.

If speaking not about romance, for example, the book scene was only added in patch 4. So I think they will be able to fill in these "gaps".
Posted By: Zenith Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/03/21 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Hilarian
I'll take lazy over discriminatory policy any day. The issue is that there hasn't been a single game developed that give equal attention to gay characters, it's also heavily one sided toward the straight players, which I already said to be expected as it's the majority of the players. In regard to your example, you have a bunch of choices already, so you just happen to stumble upon a gay character, you could just say that maybe you could go for them, but for the gay characters with limited options, you don't get to have that luxury. There were a big commotion with Mass Effect Andromeda because the options are as you said very LAZY for the gay options, both of the gay options are non companions, computer generated faces, with little contents. The supposed bi option was made for female, during the romantic scene, his eyes didn't look at the male character because he looks down to the height of the females, essentially a lazy mod where they just replace the female with male. There hasn't been a single single game out there that do set sexuality right. I would take lazy over intentionally unequal contents any day.

That's why there should be roughly ~equal number of options for any player preferences. We are expecting 8 companions, they can easily be:
1 straight male, 1 straight female, 1 gay male, 1 gay female
4 bi-/player-sexual companions of differing genders

This allows for everyone to have 3-6 romance options in any given playthrough, depending on their willingness to date companions of a gender they might not be attracted to IRL.
For comparison, 8 entirely playersexual companions results in 4-8 options depending on the same. Larian could make fully half of the companions attracted to a single gender and it would at worst reduce romance options down from 4 to 3.

Of course, companions shouldn't be defined entirely by their orientation. But all good companions should have defined preferences/desires/opinions, including about their sexuality. And their sexuality should preferably be consistent with their backstory/relationship history and any dialogue (flirting) between them and other companions.


The other constant thorn on the side is that rather conveniently, all resources go toward making the straight female love interest rather attractive in body and attitude, while often a fraction of the effort is spent in male models. If I could make a buck for every single well sculpted porn star female ass with super countoured armor while you get males with chicken legs and flat ass with baggy clothes, I'd be richer than Elon Musk.

Cora in Mass Effect Andromeda, and then Panam/Judy in CP2077.

At least in Baldur's Gate they actually gave the naked males some semblance of well distributed curvature, if we're going by the Astarion romance scenes.
Posted By: Hilarian Re: Current companions/romance options - 24/03/21 01:33 PM
Originally Posted by Zenith
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Hilarian
I'll take lazy over discriminatory policy any day. The issue is that there hasn't been a single game developed that give equal attention to gay characters, it's also heavily one sided toward the straight players, which I already said to be expected as it's the majority of the players. In regard to your example, you have a bunch of choices already, so you just happen to stumble upon a gay character, you could just say that maybe you could go for them, but for the gay characters with limited options, you don't get to have that luxury. There were a big commotion with Mass Effect Andromeda because the options are as you said very LAZY for the gay options, both of the gay options are non companions, computer generated faces, with little contents. The supposed bi option was made for female, during the romantic scene, his eyes didn't look at the male character because he looks down to the height of the females, essentially a lazy mod where they just replace the female with male. There hasn't been a single single game out there that do set sexuality right. I would take lazy over intentionally unequal contents any day.

That's why there should be roughly ~equal number of options for any player preferences. We are expecting 8 companions, they can easily be:
1 straight male, 1 straight female, 1 gay male, 1 gay female
4 bi-/player-sexual companions of differing genders

This allows for everyone to have 3-6 romance options in any given playthrough, depending on their willingness to date companions of a gender they might not be attracted to IRL.
For comparison, 8 entirely playersexual companions results in 4-8 options depending on the same. Larian could make fully half of the companions attracted to a single gender and it would at worst reduce romance options down from 4 to 3.

Of course, companions shouldn't be defined entirely by their orientation. But all good companions should have defined preferences/desires/opinions, including about their sexuality. And their sexuality should preferably be consistent with their backstory/relationship history and any dialogue (flirting) between them and other companions.


The other constant thorn on the side is that rather conveniently, all resources go toward making the straight female love interest rather attractive in body and attitude, while often a fraction of the effort is spent in male models. If I could make a buck for every single well sculpted porn star female ass with super countoured armor while you get males with chicken legs and flat ass with baggy clothes, I'd be richer than Elon Musk.

Cora in Mass Effect Andromeda, and then Panam/Judy in CP2077.

At least in Baldur's Gate they actually gave the naked males some semblance of well distributed curvature, if we're going by the Astarion romance scenes.
Not just that, aren't the straight option is often the most important and plot relevant (on top of more contents usually) characters as well? Alistair and Morrigan from Dragon Age, Panam from Cyberpunk, the lords from Fire Emblem. The gay option in Mass Effect Andromeda is one of the most offensive things I have seen. See? I don't know if it's intentional or not, but the options for gay tend to be very out there.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 24/03/21 03:38 PM
Srsly people, you are quoting posts that are five times longer than your reaction ...
Cant you at least give it spoiler tags or something? :-/
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Current companions/romance options - 24/03/21 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by Hilarian
Originally Posted by Zenith
The other constant thorn on the side is that rather conveniently, all resources go toward making the straight female love interest rather attractive in body and attitude, while often a fraction of the effort is spent in male models. If I could make a buck for every single well sculpted porn star female ass with super countoured armor while you get males with chicken legs and flat ass with baggy clothes, I'd be richer than Elon Musk.

Cora in Mass Effect Andromeda, and then Panam/Judy in CP2077.

At least in Baldur's Gate they actually gave the naked males some semblance of well distributed curvature, if we're going by the Astarion romance scenes.
Not just that, aren't the straight option is often the most important and plot relevant (on top of more contents usually) characters as well? Alistair and Morrigan from Dragon Age, Panam from Cyberpunk, the lords from Fire Emblem. The gay option in Mass Effect Andromeda is one of the most offensive things I have seen. See? I don't know if it's intentional or not, but the options for gay tend to be very out there.
That's true. On the one-hand, I wouldn't necessarily point to Andromeda or Cyberpunk as good examples, given all the drama, rushed release, and general hate directed toward those games. Especially CP2077, which has a completely pathetic set of romance options. Even I'd advocate for player-sexual companions if there were only 4 options. On the other hand, yeah DA:O and DA:I had straight main companions (Cassandra and Solas for DAI).
In an ideal world, the main companions across all games would be an ~even mix of orientations and all sets of orientations would be given equal development efforts, but I agree that we definitely do not live in an ideal world.

However, neither of your arguments are actually against set companion sexualities, just that in most games it is done poorly and/or it's always side characters who are non-het. In BG3, where the title of "Main Companion" can only realistically be given to Lae'zel (and even that's a bit of a stretch), at least the latter of these two problems is less relevant.
Posted By: Arne Re: Current companions/romance options - 25/03/21 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by Hilarian
I know games out there that made for homosexuality

But you just said "there hasn't been a single game developed that give equal attention to gay characters". In truth, there are even games that give *more* attention to gay characters.

And that's just fine.

Originally Posted by Hilarian
you think it's okay to have slanted numbers simply being a majority while the other group should just bear with it

So you basically want to forbid games, movies and books which focus on homosexuals or heterosexuals and only allow games which give exactly equal attention? Maybe gays and heterosexuals should unite to defend their beloved games, books and movies against this cultural nihilism wink
Posted By: Sadurian Re: Current companions/romance options - 25/03/21 01:40 PM
Let's steer clear of bringing real-world sexuality and LGBTQ+ politics into a forum about a computer game. Character (PC or NPC) sexuality within the game is a legitimate topic with much constructive potential, but if the conversation strays into the real world it will be closed.
Posted By: Hilarian Re: Current companions/romance options - 25/03/21 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by Arne
Originally Posted by Hilarian
I know games out there that made for homosexuality

But you just said "there hasn't been a single game developed that give equal attention to gay characters". In truth, there are even games that give *more* attention to gay characters.

And that's just fine.

Originally Posted by Hilarian
you think it's okay to have slanted numbers simply being a majority while the other group should just bear with it

So you basically want to forbid games, movies and books which focus on homosexuals or heterosexuals and only allow games which give exactly equal attention? Maybe gays and heterosexuals should unite to defend their beloved games, books and movies against this cultural nihilism wink
Did I say I forbid anyone? I don't have any power over it but simply stated what I want and that's playersexual as some may put it because it has never done well. It's not a demand, and I simply stated a preference in a feedback board, funny how you make it sound like I try to force anything. It's up to the developers to do whatever they want at the end of the day. I don't care about representation like at all, just simply let me court whoever. You want these arbitrary restriction and unequal distribution, and I'm glad Larian didn't do that route and I hope it stays that way. smile
Posted By: Maiandra Re: Current companions/romance options - 27/03/21 03:23 AM
I've only been in EA for about three months now, so I haven't had much chance to explore many character options with regard to romance. My initial character was something different for me: a tiefling warlock who was more neutralish than my normally good characters. Since I needed a rogue in the party, I thought it would be a good chance to test out Astarion.

I almost didn't continue with that, since he seemed like a bit of a whinger to begin with, however, he quickly became more charming once he warmed up to my character. While I agree that the depraved, hedonistic vampire is a very widespread sterotype, there were several suggestions that there was more to his character than that.

I actually found it kind of sad that he had only ever been able to feed on rats, and that he seemed so surprised and grateful when the PC lets him feed on them. Plus, when he reveals that Cazador's physic link allowed him to control Astarion like a puppet and make him do things he didn't want to do, I found that quite horrific (as one does with mind control). It makes me wonder how many of Astarion's predilections are his own and how many are due to being Kilgraved by a sadistic master for two centuries. That would be enough to traumatise anyone.

In addition to that, the fact that he seems to: place so much importance on whether the PC (and other party members) trust him or not, like when you refer to having each other's backs, and approve when you help out others in a similar situation to his (Karlach) suggest a glimmer of hope for him. I would like to think that, with the appropriate emotional support, he might be able to recover from his trauma somewhat. Becoming good seems too unlikely, but maybe reaching a more neutral outlook might be possible.

Or maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic and wish everyone could be saved, even when they can't. wink

Other than that, I thought my new druid character would end up hitting it off with Gale, but despite having extrordinary approval from him, she never got some of the interactions/scenes others have mentioned here. I'm not sure what she missed doing (other than him biggrin).
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 27/03/21 06:00 AM
Gale is really bugged. In order to be able to romance him, you have to have a scene, where he explorers the Weave with you. This scene is nearly impossible to trigger. Especially, if you are getting approval too quickly. You basically have to rest after every approval raise, but the problem is, other companion scenes are triggered too - and I always thought, that they might overwrite the Weave scene, plus there are events like Raphael that burst into the mix.
I did at least 10 playthroughs and I only was able to trigger the Weave scene once or twice.

As for Astarion, I hope he stays evil, he is the most evil of the companions and he seems to like it that way. My prediction is, that you have to put a stake through his heart at one point as a non-evil character.
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Current companions/romance options - 27/03/21 08:01 AM
I agree with fylimar, Astarion comes off as chaotic evil, to use the D&D alignment terms. With an evil PC is is actually quite noticeable; I guess he isn't hiding his nature then. Also, he is the only companions that has a personal interest in keeping the tadpole, so I suspect if the absolute offers him a good deal he will take it (and stab the PC in the back on the way). Same as Gale and
Raphael, that is another potential betrayal I'd expect if you don't play along with Gale's demands.

That said, I think every origin character will be written with a potential evil & good path in their origin story. Otherwise playing them would make little sense; if the player consistently makes good choices, the story needs to reflect that, regardless who they are playing as.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Current companions/romance options - 27/03/21 08:02 AM
Originally Posted by fylimar
Gale is really bugged. In order to be able to romance him, you have to have a scene, where he explorers the Weave with you. This scene is nearly impossible to trigger. Especially, if you are getting approval too quickly. You basically have to rest after every approval raise, but the problem is, other companion scenes are triggered too - and I always thought, that they might overwrite the Weave scene, plus there are events like Raphael that burst into the mix.
I did at least 10 playthroughs and I only was able to trigger the Weave scene once or twice.

As for Astarion, I hope he stays evil, he is the most evil of the companions and he seems to like it that way. My prediction is, that you have to put a stake through his heart at one point as a non-evil character.

Weirdly I have gotten that scene every single playthrough so I never had issue.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Current companions/romance options - 27/03/21 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Also, he is the only companions that has a personal interest in keeping the tadpole, so I suspect if the absolute offers him a good deal he will take it (and stab the PC in the back on the way)

I'm betting that we'll need to make a persuasion check to keep him around, with bonuses or penalties depending on how he's been treated. Maybe the check will auto-succeed or auto-fail under certain circumstances.

I foresee further checks when it's time to deal with Cazador. Those are the ones I'm really looking forward to, I hope they'll be... interesting.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 27/03/21 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by ash elemental
I agree with fylimar, Astarion comes off as chaotic evil, to use the D&D alignment terms. With an evil PC is is actually quite noticeable; I guess he isn't hiding his nature then. Also, he is the only companions that has a personal interest in keeping the tadpole, so I suspect if the absolute offers him a good deal he will take it (and stab the PC in the back on the way). Same as Gale and
Raphael, that is another potential betrayal I'd expect if you don't play along with Gale's demands.

That said, I think every origin character will be written with a potential evil & good path in their origin story. Otherwise playing them would make little sense; if the player consistently makes good choices, the story needs to reflect that, regardless who they are playing as.
I agree about Gale, given by the conversation with him after that encounter.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Current companions/romance options - 27/03/21 03:35 PM
I have never gotten the weave scene. frown
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Current companions/romance options - 27/03/21 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by Icelyn
I have never gotten the weave scene. frown

I can trigger it on every run now, only took me... checks Steam... 343 hours of practice.

Gale takes 'playing hard to get' to a new level.
Posted By: Imryll Re: Current companions/romance options - 28/03/21 05:57 AM
Originally Posted by Icelyn
I have never gotten the weave scene. frown

I haven't either, although recently I've resorted to having him suicide using traps and setting fire to spider walkways to trigger the required death scene earlier in the game. It has also occurred to me that my characters would rather romance Halsin, anyway. A relationship that requires the level of micromanagement that Gale's does hardly seems worth the trouble and certainly loses its "romantic" feel.

Although, the micromanagement may only be necessary if you want him as a party date. It's possible that a more leisurely romance could blossom later in the game if you have sufficient rep with him (which I would actually prefer). Regardless, if he wants to court my characters, he's going to have to be a little more forthcoming and flexible.
Posted By: Zenith Re: Current companions/romance options - 28/03/21 07:49 AM
Originally Posted by Imryll
Originally Posted by Icelyn
I have never gotten the weave scene. frown

I haven't either, although recently I've resorted to having him suicide using traps and setting fire to spider walkways to trigger the required death scene earlier in the game. It has also occurred to me that my characters would rather romance Halsin, anyway. A relationship that requires the level of micromanagement that Gale's does hardly seems worth the trouble and certainly loses its "romantic" feel.

Although, the micromanagement may only be necessary if you want him as a party date. It's possible that a more leisurely romance could blossom later in the game if you have sufficient rep with him (which I would actually prefer). Regardless, if he wants to court my characters, he's going to have to be a little more forthcoming and flexible.


You need to trigger his mirror image scene also by resting before doing the intro fight by the grove gates. Then it's a game of doing enough actions per approval tier and camping then. You have to find a way to advance the story without advancing his approval, so you gotta stagger the content that gets you his approval, by doing things like killing goblins at the camp or doing the harpies without gaining approval too quick.

It's most definitely terrible half-assed design, and should change before the game releases.

I've done 4 complete playthroughs and only on the 4th after reading the forum threads here did I get enough tips to manage to trigger the scene through very calculated play, it sucks.

Especially because unless Daddy Halsin becomes available, Gale is the only sorta normal charming male romance interest. Wyll is such a weirdo with the self referral in third person to the Blade, he's too full of it for me to like. Doesn't help he talks about his devil mistress even during your sex scene and you need to roll a dice to even get a sex scene.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Current companions/romance options - 28/03/21 01:35 PM
Originally Posted by Imryll
It has also occurred to me that my characters would rather romance Halsin, anyway.
Agree!
Posted By: Imryll Re: Current companions/romance options - 28/03/21 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by Zenith
Originally Posted by Imryll
Originally Posted by Icelyn
I have never gotten the weave scene. frown

I haven't either, although recently I've resorted to having him suicide using traps and setting fire to spider walkways to trigger the required death scene earlier in the game. It has also occurred to me that my characters would rather romance Halsin, anyway. A relationship that requires the level of micromanagement that Gale's does hardly seems worth the trouble and certainly loses its "romantic" feel.

Although, the micromanagement may only be necessary if you want him as a party date. It's possible that a more leisurely romance could blossom later in the game if you have sufficient rep with him (which I would actually prefer). Regardless, if he wants to court my characters, he's going to have to be a little more forthcoming and flexible.


You need to trigger his mirror image scene also by resting before doing the intro fight by the grove gates. Then it's a game of doing enough actions per approval tier and camping then. You have to find a way to advance the story without advancing his approval, so you gotta stagger the content that gets you his approval, by doing things like killing goblins at the camp or doing the harpies without gaining approval too quick.

Thanks for the tip, but I've been getting all but the weave scene, so I think that the issue (for me) really is that he's not been dying early enough in the game if I play normally--and that it's hard for me to feel romantically about someone I have to kill off before I can capture their interest. It begins to sound like the basis for one of the books we might find. I'm really not sure why the death sequence needs to happen so early or why achieving exceptional rep couldn't trigger a substitute scene where he explains what you'll need to do if he does die. Perhaps the dev who designed it spied on me monitoring Gatekeeper after each conversation with Anomen to make sure I hadn't "turned off" the romance and thought that a similar experience would make BG3 feel like a real BG game. wink

And, yes, before anyone expresses shock that anyone would want to romance Anomen, I am the one person who did. It's not that I was keen on the early exchanges, but basically that I can forgive those because later, when my character really needs support, he tells her that he'll follow her into hell and then does so. Knowing you can count on someone can be a real turn on.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Current companions/romance options - 28/03/21 09:09 PM
Getting his death scene is not one of the requirements, though I've seen people theorize that it might trigger his "stuck" conversations. All you really need to do is raise his approval and then long rest/fast travel like crazy at each step (medium, high, etc.) until you get his corresponding camp cutscene, in the meantime avoiding any other camp cutscenes which might interfere (which is the really tricky part).
Posted By: Zenith Re: Current companions/romance options - 29/03/21 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by Imryll
Originally Posted by Zenith
Originally Posted by Imryll
Originally Posted by Icelyn
I have never gotten the weave scene. frown

I haven't either, although recently I've resorted to having him suicide using traps and setting fire to spider walkways to trigger the required death scene earlier in the game. It has also occurred to me that my characters would rather romance Halsin, anyway. A relationship that requires the level of micromanagement that Gale's does hardly seems worth the trouble and certainly loses its "romantic" feel.

Although, the micromanagement may only be necessary if you want him as a party date. It's possible that a more leisurely romance could blossom later in the game if you have sufficient rep with him (which I would actually prefer). Regardless, if he wants to court my characters, he's going to have to be a little more forthcoming and flexible.


You need to trigger his mirror image scene also by resting before doing the intro fight by the grove gates. Then it's a game of doing enough actions per approval tier and camping then. You have to find a way to advance the story without advancing his approval, so you gotta stagger the content that gets you his approval, by doing things like killing goblins at the camp or doing the harpies without gaining approval too quick.

Thanks for the tip, but I've been getting all but the weave scene, so I think that the issue (for me) really is that he's not been dying early enough in the game if I play normally--and that it's hard for me to feel romantically about someone I have to kill off before I can capture their interest. It begins to sound like the basis for one of the books we might find. I'm really not sure why the death sequence needs to happen so early or why achieving exceptional rep couldn't trigger a substitute scene where he explains what you'll need to do if he does die. Perhaps the dev who designed it spied on me monitoring Gatekeeper after each conversation with Anomen to make sure I hadn't "turned off" the romance and thought that a similar experience would make BG3 feel like a real BG game. wink

And, yes, before anyone expresses shock that anyone would want to romance Anomen, I am the one person who did. It's not that I was keen on the early exchanges, but basically that I can forgive those because later, when my character really needs support, he tells her that he'll follow her into hell and then does so. Knowing you can count on someone can be a real turn on.

I got his death scene via the harpies. Before engaging them, I make him jump a couple of times to take fall damage dangerously close to death, and once engaged with them I make him jump one last time off a cliff for the harpies to then kill him after death saving throws. It's very easy to 3 man the harpies if you position Lazael and Shadowheart by the very cliffs they tend to jump up to before you engage them so you can bust them up as soon as they jump over. Alternatively, you can put Shadowheart with Inflct wounds by the kid to deal with the harpy that's down and grab your character that has Thunderwave and put him up for Lazael so as soon as the harpy jumps over you can push her off the cliff.

Either way it's awful design and limited my gameplay cadence and options. Because of the careful camping, I completely missed the Aradin band after calming the encounter with Zevlor, as I camped but didn't talk to Aradin's band and the next day they were gone from the camp without giving me the hand bill for the Nightsong or triggering the scene with the stolen locket.

I'm just hoping for Daddy Halsin romance, because on my 3rd playthrough I dislike Wyll even more with his weirdo third person self reference as the blade blowing smoke all up his ass constantly, and Gale is the only OK male romance, but aesthetically leaves something to be desired.
Posted By: Maiandra Re: Current companions/romance options - 30/03/21 03:13 AM
Originally Posted by Zenith
I'm just hoping for Daddy Halsin romance, because on my 3rd playthrough I dislike Wyll even more with his weirdo third person self reference as the blade blowing smoke all up his ass constantly, and Gale is the only OK male romance, but aesthetically leaves something to be desired.
I know! Referring to himself in the third person once might have been funny, especially if you had the option to joke back about it (to show you know he's just kidding around). But it seems like he's seriously being that cheesy about being a hero, which comes off as childish (instead of just being goofy to try to make you laugh). It's kind of a shame, because the rest of his backstory seemed interesting (although admittedly he doesn't seem like he fits a noble background).

And yes about Gale's aesthetics. His unnaturally low brow ridge makes all his facial expressions seem off, and despite the great job with head hair in the game, the facial hair still needs some work (although it's better that some games). So watching him speak is a bit odd at times. Since I seem to have missed a bunch of his dialogue, I can't say too much about his personality so far (I'm on the fence about what I've seen).

This is why it's too bad to hear Astarion is so obviously evil. Overall, his facial animations are much better and his lines are more engaging, which makes him more fun to interact with. The others all seem a bit inconsistent (from what I've seen anyway).
Posted By: soulstalker Re: Current companions/romance options - 01/04/21 05:01 PM
Ok, I have been playing this early access for a while and its getting pretty annoying when my character as a male is getting male admirers during the party scene. There should be a toggle switch in options to remove that possibility and you only receive love interests from the opposite sex. The last time that happened I reloaded an old save and tried as i might to sway it to a female choice ( character was male), but eventually it came back to him asking to sleep with my character or kicking him out of camp permanently. I suppose I could just not meet/ remove any of the male allied characters and use configuration of the 2 female choices, but that would be both drastic and put my party on a disadvantage... but might be worth it in the long run if Larion doesn't put the option to filter out same sex allies as love interests.
Posted By: Aishaddai Re: Current companions/romance options - 01/04/21 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by soulstalker
Ok, I have been playing this early access for a while and its getting pretty annoying when my character as a male is getting male admirers during the party scene. There should be a toggle switch in options to remove that possibility and you only receive love interests from the opposite sex. The last time that happened I reloaded an old save and tried as i might to sway it to a female choice ( character was male), but eventually it came back to him asking to sleep with my character or kicking him out of camp permanently. I suppose I could just not meet/ remove any of the male allied characters and use configuration of the 2 female choices, but that would be both drastic and put my party on a disadvantage... but might be worth it in the long run if Larion doesn't put the option to filter out same sex allies as love interests.

Don't know what to tell you. If it were up to me all romance dialogue and scenes would be gated. If the player does not flirt, then it really shouldn't be brought up at all. Total strangers in an unfamiliar terrain with monstrosities around every other corner? Yeah let's talk about romance while I wash off the blood of my enemies hoping I don't sprout tentacles right out my face hole and zombieland the next mo fo I see. Not to mention some just want friendship. Some don't want romance at all. This really shouldn't be a dating sim. It should be a fantastical adventure. At times though it really does feel like a dating sim.

The gate would also mean avoiding unwanted attention.

They could have leaned into body language more instead of dialogue too. A smile and moving subtly closer. Or hand on the arm or hand on the shoulder. A casual lean. Simple but effective and more natural. Only after you initiate though so it feels like you are building something. Some of the dialogue really takes me out of whatever it is they were trying to do.

The way it is now, you get all attention and it's like you have to check people off you like a hoe in heat.

Then again I'm conservative. I like my romance private, personal, and passionate.
Posted By: Zenith Re: Current companions/romance options - 01/04/21 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by Aishaddai
Originally Posted by soulstalker
Ok, I have been playing this early access for a while and its getting pretty annoying when my character as a male is getting male admirers during the party scene. There should be a toggle switch in options to remove that possibility and you only receive love interests from the opposite sex. The last time that happened I reloaded an old save and tried as i might to sway it to a female choice ( character was male), but eventually it came back to him asking to sleep with my character or kicking him out of camp permanently. I suppose I could just not meet/ remove any of the male allied characters and use configuration of the 2 female choices, but that would be both drastic and put my party on a disadvantage... but might be worth it in the long run if Larion doesn't put the option to filter out same sex allies as love interests.

Don't know what to tell you. If it were up to me all romance dialogue and scenes would be gated. If the player does not flirt, then it really shouldn't be brought up at all. Total strangers in an unfamiliar terrain with monstrosities around every other corner? Yeah let's talk about romance while I wash off the blood of my enemies hoping I don't sprout tentacles right out my face hole and zombieland the next mo fo I see. Not to mention some just want friendship. Some don't want romance at all. This really shouldn't be a dating sim. It should be a fantastical adventure. At times though it really does feel like a dating sim.

The gate would also mean avoiding unwanted attention.

They could have leaned into body language more instead of dialogue too. A smile and moving subtly closer. Or hand on the arm or hand on the shoulder. A casual lean. Simple but effective and more natural. Only after you initiate though so it feels like you are building something. Some of the dialogue really takes me out of whatever it is they were trying to do.

The way it is now, you get all attention and it's like you have to check people off you like a hoe in heat.

Then again I'm conservative. I like my romance private, personal, and passionate.

To me this seems realistic. People are going to flirt/hit on you whether you wanted it or not in a neutral environment; most straight men don't notice it because it's often mostly men doing it to women, and IRL they would react violently to other men doing it to them, which is what the poster above would probably do (now imagine if women were as defensive about unwanted flirting).

Faerun supposedly does not have the RL biases in our world, so sexes are uninhibited with their targets of flirtation.

Let's face it, we're all going to be annoyed one way or another. If I have my male PC romancing Gale, but he's remarking constantly about Shadowheart's features or Wyll goes on about Lazael, and when they're not it's Mizora/Mystra, I could stand to be annoyed. But it should be treated like the trivial annoyance it is.

The reasonable response to unwanted flirtation is "thanks, but no thanks". Anything else is overreaction.

There are too many romance permutations to consider to accommodate every individual's sensitivity. And yes, for some a fantastical adventure involves a passionate relationship with a partner, while others would rather just be Indiana Jones rather than Sandokhan/James Bond.
Posted By: Aishaddai Re: Current companions/romance options - 01/04/21 09:39 PM
@Zenith I disagree entirely. There is a time and place for everything. Not everyone is appealing to everyone either. Then you have things like style, demeanor, setting. Men and women looking for rings, body language, inconsistency, etc. Cues for all sorts of info.

This false narrative of everyone flirting all the time seems quite popular.

Straight men not noticing is also false and misleading. Awareness is not mutually exclusive. Hell in some professions like engineering you can straight up lose your license if there is a witness regardless of recipication. The horny'est men I know are always looking when it comes to this. Double for women past 25.

Fantasy is fantasy. The rules are what the devs make them. Real life has no standing. The player who payed for the game should have a choice in tone of how to interact.

Its not trivial which is the point. The gate is the best solution by far. You choose the tone. None of this you get all tones and you have to sit in unwanted situations. Their is no reason not to have a gate.

The horrible fickleness, disrespectful, borderline humiliation fetish(their are other words but this is least likely to be modded) is unnecessary. The men and women i've encountered for the past 30 years always share the same behavior. If you are interested in someone, the last thing you want is to be associated with anyone else that could be seen as a rival or mood destroyer in front of the desired prospect. You are suppose to be starting a relationship not a competition. Assuming you have self worth.

I wouldn't assume over or under reactions from anyone either since I can judge for myself. Not going to trust any melo drama hivemind manipulators over my own judgement. Not saying you are one, but that they exist and are loud.

The accommodation is simple. Let people choose. Put up the gate and let the player initiate.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Current companions/romance options - 01/04/21 11:11 PM
Flirting can be a weird societal thing. As a gay guy I have been very very dense to flirtations from women, only realizing much later. It isn't something that I enjoy encountering but I always saw it as a mild or funny thing afterwards when I finally realize what happened. I feel the same when a female character flirts with me in a game cause I am clearly not going to pursue a romance with them, though with how direct most games are I find it actually clearer that I am being flirted with and thus I know to shut that down. Likely, I'd expect a straight guy that I did not know was straight to feel the same if I flirted with them (clearly this isn't going into completely unwanted advances cause then that'd be sexual harassment) and be willing to go "No, I am not interested."
Overall, I am fine with the characters initiating flirty conversations BUT there should also be equal opportunities for the player to initiate on their own terms, the ability to outright say no and move on, and options to tailor it like having it that other characters wont flirt if you start flirting with one or a player can set their sexuality as an optional toggle thing maybe (though I feel that last one would stir up people somehow, also I dunno if they plan at all for uh unique groupings with poly relationships or something).
Posted By: JJRX5 Re: Current companions/romance options - 02/04/21 08:23 AM
I was a bit taken aback when I was in the celebratory camp scene, and all my companions were talking about bringing me to their tent or that I didn’t make the cut. Up to that point, I had expressed no interest in any of them. Wyll was like come to my tent, and all I could think of was how did that happen. I hardly travelled with the guy. There is no buildup whatsoever. It is just straight up let’s get raunchy because we had a victory. That is not romance.
Posted By: Etruscan Re: Current companions/romance options - 02/04/21 09:47 AM
I guess my question is why the design decision to create such an apparent emphasis on romance anyway? I thought BG games were about grand adventure with the possibility of romance an optional embellishment, not something that is shoved in your face like some sex party. *shrug*
Posted By: Maiandra Re: Current companions/romance options - 02/04/21 06:54 PM
I feel like "romance" is just general term used that doesn't always mean actual romance. It's some kind of non-platonic interaction, which varies depending on the character and situation.

I feel that's fine. Depending on what kind of character you're role-playing, maybe they just want a night of distraction (that could turn into more later after getting to know the person later--or not) or maybe they do want an emotional connection right away. It's good to give the player options and let things play out differently depending on their choices.

Since the game basically asks you who you "dream of" at the beginning, it would be very easy to for "romances" to be open or not based on what the player selects there. That way it respects player choice for the character they are creating, but still gives everyone options.

I personally like in-depth character interactions in games, and they can exist alongside epic adventure if done well. Romances are a part of that, but sometimes they dominate over friendships. I really like how you had Aveline as a constant friend throughout DA2, and I always liked Varric across the DA games. In BG3, I'd like to be able to enjoy a bottle of wine with Shadowheart and get to know her better without it being romantic. I'd like to hear people's stories and find common ground in moments of respite, romance or not.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Current companions/romance options - 02/04/21 08:07 PM
Not only do they shove it in your face, they return to it time and time again, grinding away without any concern for your pleasure! It's suffocating.

Anyway, the romances were a big part of BG2 and big part of what Larian is doing right. Unlike some, I like the party scenes. You are no longer crawling through goblin filth and corpses, you've learned that the time bomb isn't going off in a few short days and you have a lead on a cure -- you can take one night for rest and distraction. To my mind this is just a grounded, mature way to approach flirting that is true-to-life. You are at work, should you be flirting? y/n You are at a party, should you be flirting? y/n To my mind it's pretty clear no to the first and yes to the second. People make passes at parties and not while killing goblins -- right? Time and place for everything.

Much as I loved BG2 the timing of the romance dialogues were often unintentionally humorous -- for some reason Firkraag's den was listed as "non dungeon" so flirting would inevitably happen there. "I'm wondering, have you ever considered getting married . . ."? Umm, sure I have, but can talk about this after we kill the dragon that is about incinerate us?

I've got lots of critiques of BG3's mechanics but I'm happy with the romances so far.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Current companions/romance options - 03/04/21 01:14 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
People make passes at parties and not while killing goblins -- right?

The companions are perfectly willing to flirt with each other while out killing goblins, it's only the poor PC who gets left out. :P

The PC does get a few pre-party opportunities to flirt in camp at night, which seems reasonable to me.
Posted By: classl3ss Re: Current companions/romance options - 03/04/21 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by soulstalker
Ok, I have been playing this early access for a while and its getting pretty annoying when my character as a male is getting male admirers during the party scene. There should be a toggle switch in options to remove that possibility and you only receive love interests from the opposite sex. The last time that happened I reloaded an old save and tried as i might to sway it to a female choice ( character was male), but eventually it came back to him asking to sleep with my character or kicking him out of camp permanently. I suppose I could just not meet/ remove any of the male allied characters and use configuration of the 2 female choices, but that would be both drastic and put my party on a disadvantage... but might be worth it in the long run if Larion doesn't put the option to filter out same sex allies as love interests.

Why does it bother you that men are hitting on men? Meaning, why is it not enough simply to say you are not interested? It is a fact of life that some people are queer, and it seems odd to think that in a game one should be able to 'turn off' queerness.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Current companions/romance options - 03/04/21 08:38 PM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
People make passes at parties and not while killing goblins -- right?

The companions are perfectly willing to flirt with each other while out killing goblins, it's only the poor PC who gets left out. :P

The PC does get a few pre-party opportunities to flirt in camp at night, which seems reasonable to me.

True. I like Shadowheart's flirtations with and then rejections of Wyll. And yes I do like the camp flirtations and wouldn't mind more of those.

I'm just not experiencing the whole "where did this come from" thing that others do. It's easy to say no and hard to get them to say yes. And do love Astarian's rejection lines . . .
Posted By: NoCTuRNa Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 01:09 PM
these are the origin characters, they are that for a reason, they're going to be playable, for a reason. the point is that there is much, much more to them all than meets the eye, hence them being the 'origin' characters. larian said we're getting more companions, who we will likely spend less time with than the original 5, they can save all the normality (aka boringness) for them. & using the word 'obviously' in regards to certain companions (including the only one i even like at all) is the first problem: nothing is completely obvious about them & first impressions are rarely even close to accurate for ANY of them. they do all have secrets, that's why they are specially set aside as these first 5 & why they will be playable, so you can eventually figure out about all the things you were wrong about when judging them by first impressions alone.

& as for finding out secrets too soon (like the vampire thing) remember, we have a long, long, long time before we get the whole game, & if they were all 'normal' with no layers & no shades of grey to their personalities, they would be painfully boring to play with for however long we'll be waiting on the next content update IMO
Posted By: NoCTuRNa Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 01:19 PM
Originally Posted by BeeBee
- He could kill Cazador, in which case he would revert to his elf-self, losing any vampiric powers and keeping the parasite. A bit of a bummer for a survival-obsessed character.

from 1 of his lines, i got the impression that killing cazador would leave him as a vampire spawn but with free will (& possibly the continued power from the parasite, depending on how that goes). the line was something along the lines of "i would settle for just killing the bastard. i wouldn't be a TRUE vampire, but at least i'd be free of him"
so, assuming that he would maintain his current state, but without cazador's control, i think that would be the best option, & the one i'm hoping for, since i truly love & adore astarion & am living for the chance to get to free him & give him a chance to finally have the life that has been denied him for over 2 centuries <3
Posted By: NoCTuRNa Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 01:38 PM
Originally Posted by BeeBee
I like Astarion for thirsty reasons, even though I sometimes feel like I'm invading LGQTB spaces when I romance him. That might be a me problem though.

And he's sad at the idea of losing the tadpole, because that would mean he will lose the ability to stand in the sun

well, if it makes you feel any better about invading spaces, there are dev notes for his party banter about walks with gale where it says "astarion tries to flirt with gale" & there are ALSO dev notes in his party banter with shadow, where he says she has a grim name for such a beautiful flower, & again, the dev notes say "astarion tries to flirt with shadowheart" so other than the fact that all the companions are able to be romanced regardless of player gender, i think, canonically, astarion is definitely a free for all, regardless of his flamboyant mannerisms.

& i don't think it's so much the sun that he's afraid of losing as it is his free will, which is the BIGGEST thing the tadpole gave back to him after 200 yrs of slavery, starvation & torture, & that is the MAIN reason i love him so much & sympathize with him so strongly, he's suffered horrific abuse, & all those nasty first impressions ppl get are a wall he hides behind, (& he's actually the only one that treats you any differently at all after romancing him) & all his thirst for power is desperation to have any power at all after having none whatsoever for longer than most of the other characters have even been alive.
Posted By: NoCTuRNa Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
I made all “good” choices and pretty much ignored any approval ratings. After defeating Minthara, everyone else rejected my character. Not Asterion.

With the right combination of dialogue choices, I got the romance scene.

yes i have romanced astarion many times without having to make evil choices, as long as you're nice to him, you can still help people, just without being overly nice as you do. he's very sarcastic & single-minded, & yes he IS self-serving, but there's a difference between self-serving & evil... he doesn't have a problem with 'good' as long as you're not too overly sweet to random people, while also not being a jerk to astarion himself. there is a LOT more to him than the impression he tries to put forth & the walls he tries to hide behind, & when you talk to him the right way, he is by far very, very sweet, once you get past his walls & dig deeper, which is what i love about him, the layers, & that's why he's the only one i EVER even think about romancing
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Much as I loved BG2 the timing of the romance dialogues were often unintentionally humorous -- for some reason Firkraag's den was listed as "non dungeon" so flirting would inevitably happen there. "I'm wondering, have you ever considered getting married . . ."? Umm, sure I have, but can talk about this after we kill the dragon that is about incinerate us?
Oh yes, my first (and only) attempt at BG2's original romances ended up in a "romantic" scene in the middle of Athkatlan sewers. It was both hilarious and off-putting.

Years later I've found one of the very few (since I generally avoid them in games) romances in crpgs I've enjoyed and it was a fanmade mod. I am not sure if it will be possible to mod companions into BG3, but it would be nice.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by NoCTuRNa
Originally Posted by BeeBee
- He could kill Cazador, in which case he would revert to his elf-self, losing any vampiric powers and keeping the parasite.

from 1 of his lines, i got the impression that killing cazador would leave him as a vampire spawn but with free will (& possibly the continued power from the parasite, depending on how that goes).

Very true. Astarion has a lot of options ahead of him, more than any other companion: true vampire + tadpole, vampire spawn + tadpole, and elf + tadpole, plus all of those things with no tadpole. Which would make him most powerful? That's hard to say. The tadpole currently negates most of the advantages and disadvantages of being a vampire; Astarion has basically become a normal elf who needs to drink blood and avoid creeks. I think his ideal state would be 'true vampire with no tadpole'. Whether he can achieve that, and whether we can persuade him to change his priorities, remains to be seen.
Posted By: NoCTuRNa Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by Maiandra
This is why it's too bad to hear Astarion is so obviously evil.

that is an opinion that is not shared by everyone. if you dig deeper into astarion there is a justification for a lot of his behavior. a lot of people confuse self-serving with evil, but as i said, once you dig deep enough, you understand all the motivations behind a lot of what he does or says, & he is by far the best romance option & the only one that even acts like a romance even happened after the fact. with the right options, there are chances to read his mind, dig much deeper, see how truly damaged, regretful & pained & just plain sad he really is, & to have him open up to you about the horrific things he has been through, had to do, or had done to him. he has many, many, many layers & definitely puts up a wall & acts a certain way to hide what is behind it all... & of course, he is hands down, the funniest character, with the best dialogue & an amazing voice, which easily makes him the most interesting companion & the one i sympathise/empathise with the most... so there's that lol (in other words, not everyone believes he is the most evil, & again, there's a difference between being evil & being more interested in your own freedom & survival than any other concerns).
Originally Posted by NoCTuRNa
Originally Posted by Maiandra
This is why it's too bad to hear Astarion is so obviously evil.

that is an opinion that is not shared by everyone. if you dig deeper into astarion there is a justification for a lot of his behavior. a lot of people confuse self-serving with evil, but as i said, once you dig deep enough, you understand all the motivations behind a lot of what he does or says, & he is by far the best romance option & the only one that even acts like a romance even happened after the fact. with the right options, there are chances to read his mind, dig much deeper, see how truly damaged, regretful & pained & just plain sad he really is, & to have him open up to you about the horrific things he has been through, had to do, or had done to him. he has many, many, many layers & definitely puts up a wall & acts a certain way to hide what is behind it all... & of course, he is hands down, the funniest character, with the best dialogue & an amazing voice, which easily makes him the most interesting companion & the one i sympathise/empathise with the most... so there's that lol (in other words, not everyone believes he is the most evil, & again, there's a difference between being evil & being more interested in your own freedom & survival than any other concerns).

Just keep in mind that the game is designed for you to interpret each character differently based on your playthrough. When I play the game he is very solidly chaotic evil where his approvals over my pc's evil actions are because it is entertaining to him, not because he agrees my pc is darkly justified.

Oddly enough though Astarion's romance IS certainly the most romantic, but I also feel he's just skilled in that regard, which keeps open the opportunity for betrayal if things go south. Luring people and keeping them charmed was his job.
Posted By: Rack Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by NoCTuRNa
Originally Posted by Maiandra
This is why it's too bad to hear Astarion is so obviously evil.

that is an opinion that is not shared by everyone. if you dig deeper into astarion there is a justification for a lot of his behavior...

There's a real problem in making a character who's demeanour is one dimensional "For the Evulz" in that people aren't going to want to dig deeper. There needs to be something about them that's endearing in the first place. Astarion obviously hits this mark for you but personally I'd be happy throwing him, Lae'zel and Shadowheart into a big pit and filling it in with concrete. Granted I never gave Astarion much of a chance, his conceited faux-aristocrat air put me off right from the start but Lae'zel and Shadowheart really had everything going for them and still somehow messed it up

Originally Posted by NoCTuRNa
& i don't think it's so much the sun that he's afraid of losing as it is his free will, which is the BIGGEST thing the tadpole gave back to him after 200 yrs of slavery, starvation & torture

I never really dug into his character but this does make it seem weird that he's upset your character doesn't want to take Nettie's poison if the tadpole takes control. He more than anyone should get the value in death being preferable to a loss of free will.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
Oddly enough though Astarion's romance IS certainly the most romantic, but I also feel he's just skilled in that regard, which keeps open the opportunity for betrayal if things go south. Luring people and keeping them charmed was his job.

Absolutely. Every time I click on him and he feeds my character one of those sugar-sweet romanced lines, he gets a mental side-eye from me.

But I keep romancing and clicking. Because he really is good at his job.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
Oddly enough though Astarion's romance IS certainly the most romantic, but I also feel he's just skilled in that regard, which keeps open the opportunity for betrayal if things go south. Luring people and keeping them charmed was his job.

Absolutely. Every time I click on him and he feeds my character one of those sugar-sweet romanced lines, he gets a mental side-eye from me.

But I keep romancing and clicking. Because he really is good at his job.

True. And -- as you say -- it is because he has been written as a seducer but it is also due, in part, to the fact that he has the greatest potential for growth as character. In the morning after scene we (literally and figuratively) see how wounded he his and how his life would improve were he freed of his master.

Shadowheart had the same potential but Patch 3 kinda ruined her. She went from being a tough nut to crack, the person who lets very few people past her armor, to someone who gets gushy and cuddly after a night of kissing.

Notice how Shadowheart's meme economy has fallen while Astarian's has risen? Before the SH changes people were making goth-shadowheart / shadowheart disapproves memes. Now that she's gotten so darn agreeable people have turned their attention to the traumatized vampire spawn.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
True. And -- as you say -- it is because he has been written as a seducer but it is also due, in part, to the fact that he has the greatest potential for growth as character. In the morning after scene we (literally and figuratively) see how wounded he his and how his life would improve were he freed of his master.

Shadowheart had the same potential but Patch 3 kinda ruined her. She went from being a tough nut to crack, the person who lets very few people past her armor, to someone who gets gushy and cuddly after a night of kissing.

Notice how Shadowheart's meme economy has fallen while Astarian's has risen? Before the SH changes people were making goth-shadowheart / shadowheart disapproves memes. Now that she's gotten so darn agreeable people have turned their attention to the traumatized vampire spawn.

Is that a fair assessment though? Patch 3's disapproval change was for all the characters, which implied that the even the developers felt that the gateway to getting to know the characters was a tad too narrow. It was something even said in their recent interview. Hell, even Patch 4 added reading Astarion's mind, which made me sympathize for him in a scene I had otherwise read him as wholly manipulative before. The patch didn't ruin her.

The Shadowheart Larian wants players to know is more visible to see in Patch 3 than before, and the memes were of a caricature rather than the character itself (as all memes are). When people say the female characters are too mean I always want to correct them and say only Lae'zel is mean (bless her heart). Shadowheart was always intended to have a soft heart beneath it all.

I also think romances are most popular with women, and online fandom participation is more popular with women. So it does not surprise me that Astarion fans eclipse the fans of other characters in fandom spaces. No hate on that since I am part of that demographic. But I wouldn't use that as a metric of which character is the best written since I've seen many of these same fans boot or kill Shadowheart because she overrides Astarion's scenes. Give Astarion a chance by all means, but do the same to the others lol.
Posted By: Maiandra Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by NoCTuRNa
Originally Posted by BeeBee
- He could kill Cazador, in which case he would revert to his elf-self, losing any vampiric powers and keeping the parasite.

from 1 of his lines, i got the impression that killing cazador would leave him as a vampire spawn but with free will (& possibly the continued power from the parasite, depending on how that goes).

Very true. Astarion has a lot of options ahead of him, more than any other companion: true vampire + tadpole, vampire spawn + tadpole, and elf + tadpole, plus all of those things with no tadpole. Which would make him most powerful? That's hard to say. The tadpole currently negates most of the advantages and disadvantages of being a vampire; Astarion has basically become a normal elf who needs to drink blood and avoid creeks. I think his ideal state would be 'true vampire with no tadpole'. Whether he can achieve that, and whether we can persuade him to change his priorities, remains to be seen.
I thought that giving him the Necromancy of Thay book might give him more options later in the game as well. He is a vampire after all, which can fall under the purview of necromancy. It would be interesting if the book had some story-related functions for non-PCs.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by Maiandra
I thought that giving him the Necromancy of Thay book might give him more options later in the game as well.

I do think it's going to be important. My theory is that it will eventually give Astarion a choice between two options - use it to weaken Cazador, or use it to bring himself back to life. It would be an interesting dilemma.

Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
Shadowheart was always intended to have a soft heart beneath it all.

Or she's trying to make it look like she has a soft heart when it's all really a Sharran manipulation! dun dun dun Though I don't know how likely that is, since I'm actually one of these horrible people:

Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
... many of these same fans boot or kill Shadowheart because she overrides Astarion's scenes.

Sorry, Shadowheart, if only you would just shut up a little...
Posted By: Maiandra Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by NoCTuRNa
Originally Posted by Maiandra
This is why it's too bad to hear Astarion is so obviously evil.

that is an opinion that is not shared by everyone. if you dig deeper into astarion there is a justification for a lot of his behavior. a lot of people confuse self-serving with evil, but as i said, once you dig deep enough, you understand all the motivations behind a lot of what he does or says, & he is by far the best romance option & the only one that even acts like a romance even happened after the fact. with the right options, there are chances to read his mind, dig much deeper, see how truly damaged, regretful & pained & just plain sad he really is, & to have him open up to you about the horrific things he has been through, had to do, or had done to him. he has many, many, many layers & definitely puts up a wall & acts a certain way to hide what is behind it all... & of course, he is hands down, the funniest character, with the best dialogue & an amazing voice, which easily makes him the most interesting companion & the one i sympathise/empathise with the most... so there's that lol (in other words, not everyone believes he is the most evil, & again, there's a difference between being evil & being more interested in your own freedom & survival than any other concerns).

It's not my opinion either, based on solely what I've seen in my one playthrough with him (I stated that in an earlier post--but that was further back in the thread). The statement above was based on what others had said, which is why I said "hear." smile I assumed they had seen further evidence of that in interactions I'd missed, since I was only playing a neutral character at the time.

I agree that pragmatic behaviour (or even sometimes selfish behaviour) isn't evil, and I haven't seen how he reacts to outright evil behaviour. If he reacts favourably to hurting others for (his own) enjoyment then that I would classify as evil. Although I often secretly (or not so secretly) hope that people can be swayed away from evil by helping them.

The most interesting thing isn't whether a character is good or evil, it's WHY they're good or evil. If they give them complex reasons for being how they are, then that's so much better than just "Mwahahaha! I want to take over the world for power (but no good reason other than that)."
Posted By: Rack Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
I also think romances are most popular with women, and online fandom participation is more popular with women. So it does not surprise me that Astarion fans eclipse the fans of other characters in fandom spaces. No hate on that since I am part of that demographic. But I wouldn't use that as a metric of which character is the best written since I've seen many of these same fans boot or kill Shadowheart because she overrides Astarion's scenes. Give Astarion a chance by all means, but do the same to the others lol.

I don't think so. Bioware have a history of releasing stats on their romances and players have always tended towards their straight dudebros. Astarion is eclipsing Lae'zel and Shadowheart because Lae'zel and Shadowheart are disasters of character writing. The fact that no-one is romancing Shadowheart in spite of the fact she's the only human looking option available for the largest section of the playerbase is a sign of quite what a mess she is.
Posted By: Zenith Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by NoCTuRNa
Originally Posted by Maiandra
This is why it's too bad to hear Astarion is so obviously evil.

that is an opinion that is not shared by everyone. if you dig deeper into astarion there is a justification for a lot of his behavior. a lot of people confuse self-serving with evil, but as i said, once you dig deep enough, you understand all the motivations behind a lot of what he does or says, & he is by far the best romance option & the only one that even acts like a romance even happened after the fact. with the right options, there are chances to read his mind, dig much deeper, see how truly damaged, regretful & pained & just plain sad he really is, & to have him open up to you about the horrific things he has been through, had to do, or had done to him. he has many, many, many layers & definitely puts up a wall & acts a certain way to hide what is behind it all... & of course, he is hands down, the funniest character, with the best dialogue & an amazing voice, which easily makes him the most interesting companion & the one i sympathise/empathise with the most... so there's that lol (in other words, not everyone believes he is the most evil, & again, there's a difference between being evil & being more interested in your own freedom & survival than any other concerns).

Well, that's probably because he's manipulative and hot. Or because you turn a blind eye to things he approves. He may be damaged, but I've never seen him regret what he did. Any hero act causes him to vomit. In addition, it says a lot that Astarion's "evil" and "selfishness" do not come from his vampirism, at least the fact that he is an obvious xenophobe.

Many people have a strange idea of "evil", like from Marvel movies, as if evil is necessarily something that needs to be defeated. Astarion is not sorry, he IS AFRAID! This is a different feeling, fear is driven by selfishness. He feels sorry only for himself and his ego. He's a terrible coward.

Of course, I understand that this may change. We have too little information and I try not to read date spoilers. But I still don't understand those who try to make Astarion a "Fallen Angel" because we have 1-2 cutscenes we're he's looks 'damaged'.

We don't have any good characters in early access (that's what Swen said). Thats mean, Lae and Astarion are evil characters, only they fully approve of the destruction of the grove. I believe that both can be won over to "neutral" side, but I do not believe that either of them was originally "good/kind".


The logic you quoted is just a variant of the same people who say murderers and psychopaths are just misunderstood survivors with troubled pasts.

I don't give a rat's ass what troubled past you have, it gives you no right to be callous towards others.

Countless immigrants, victims, people of low socioeconomic means who don't go through life trying to excuse destructive, petty, selfish behavior with their origins. They just do the right thing because they don't wish on others what they themselves have gone through.

This constant apologia for awful cynical assholes gets tiring.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by Zenith
The logic you quoted is just a variant of the same people who say murderers and psychopaths are just misunderstood survivors with troubled pasts.

I don't give a rat's ass what troubled past you have, it gives you no right to be callous towards others.

Countless immigrants, victims, people of low socioeconomic means who don't go through life trying to excuse destructive, petty, selfish behavior with their origins. They just do the right thing because they don't wish on others what they themselves have gone through.

This constant apologia for awful cynical assholes gets tiring.
Leave the real-life moral theories out of these forums, please. This is a place to discuss BG3, and not a place to grandstand your own views on the wider world.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by Killerrabbit
Shadowheart had the same potential but Patch 3 kinda ruined her. She went from being a tough nut to crack, the person who lets very few people past her armor, to someone who gets gushy and cuddly after a night of kissing.

Notice how Shadowheart's meme economy has fallen while Astarian's has risen? Before the SH changes people were making goth-shadowheart / shadowheart disapproves memes. Now that she's gotten so darn agreeable people have turned their attention to the traumatized vampire spawn.

Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
Is that a fair assessment though? Patch 3's disapproval change was for all the characters, which implied that the even the developers felt that the gateway to getting to know the characters was a tad too narrow. It was something even said in their recent interview. Hell, even Patch 4 added reading Astarion's mind, which made me sympathize for him in a scene I had otherwise read him as wholly manipulative before. The patch didn't ruin her.

I think it's more than just the gating, it's a) the change of facial expressions and b) dialogues on the day after. I see SH as the nod to Viconia. Both clerics of Shar, same dark-seeking-the-light theme, same divide between the persona and the private. If you played the Viconia romance she spends about half of it trying push you away -- every other conversation ends with an insult. The last thing she says before abandoning her hard shell is "in trust lies death" apparently a drow saying and a foreshadowing since your romance does lead her to her death.

Yes, SH was always intended to be Tsundre but after patch 3 she lost the on-again / off-again quality of the Viconia romance and Shadowheart dropped the hard shell waaay to easily and waaay too quickly.

This is a crisis of faith story. Shar isn't about hope and new beginnings -- that's Lathander. Shar is about loss, pain and hidden resentments. What do you do when you worship loss and find hope?

Pretty sure the answer isn't: spend the next day smiling and flirting.
Originally Posted by Rack
Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
I also think romances are most popular with women, and online fandom participation is more popular with women. So it does not surprise me that Astarion fans eclipse the fans of other characters in fandom spaces. No hate on that since I am part of that demographic. But I wouldn't use that as a metric of which character is the best written since I've seen many of these same fans boot or kill Shadowheart because she overrides Astarion's scenes. Give Astarion a chance by all means, but do the same to the others lol.

I don't think so. Bioware have a history of releasing stats on their romances and players have always tended towards their straight dudebros. Astarion is eclipsing Lae'zel and Shadowheart because Lae'zel and Shadowheart are disasters of character writing. The fact that no-one is romancing Shadowheart in spite of the fact she's the only human looking option available for the largest section of the playerbase is a sign of quite what a mess she is.

Quote
"Check out last week’s update for the stats on that. Somewhat contradicturally, [Gale]’s the most “romanced” of the party. He’s been “romanced” by 33% of players. Shadowheart came second, falling in love with 31% of players, and in return 31% of players fell in love with Shadowheart.

1.37% of players chose to sleep alone. Which is cool too! We have the other stats, but thought it might be fun if you gave it a shot and guessed them. One thing we’re seeing is the stan memes aren’t correlating with the actual “romance data”. For sure, there’s enough tinder in the campfire to ignite some flames.
"
- Patch 2 Notes

A third of people who participate in romances are romancing Shadowheart. This is Larian's own data. So again, please do not assume the loudest voices in the room is equivalent to the majority.

Neither of these character have disastrous writing, and I rather enjoy discussions on their character and where their plot lines will go in forums and group chats elsewhere. I've done the most character analysis on Lae'zel in particular, so you mentioning her as poorly written is personally entertaining.

Again, the game is designed for people to have different takeaways of these characters, and its within your right to dislike them, but clinging to first impressions doesn't mean they are poorly written. There is so much content in the game in regards to the characters that you are guaranteed to miss something. The order you talk to them changes how much they say, who you have recruited changes what they might say, how often you camp, how you resolve certain quest lines, who you have in your active party, etc.

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
This is a crisis of faith story. Shar isn't about hope and new beginnings -- that's Lathander. Shar is about loss, pain and hidden resentments. What do you do when you worship loss and find hope?

Pretty sure the answer isn't: spend the next day smiling and flirting.
That's because she probably
isn't a diehard Shar worshipper and is under some one else's deception or maybe a bit of her own.
Much of the dialogue and the story was probably written and recorded ages ago. SH's romance scene is more than enough evidence of her true nature for me.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
I've done the most character analysis on Lae'zel in particular, so you mentioning her as poorly written is personally entertaining.

I don't agree that Lae'zel is poorly written, but she does seem to lack content - particularly camp cutscenes - when compared with the other companions, so she feels less fully developed. I hope they've got more stuff in the works for her.

Originally Posted by ash elemental
Years later I've found one of the very few (since I generally avoid them in games) romances in crpgs I've enjoyed and it was a fanmade mod.

My favorite LI in the first two BG games is from a mod. Of course, if Anomen is your only competition...
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
This is a crisis of faith story. Shar isn't about hope and new beginnings -- that's Lathander. Shar is about loss, pain and hidden resentments. What do you do when you worship loss and find hope?

Pretty sure the answer isn't: spend the next day smiling and flirting.
That's because she probably
isn't a diehard Shar worshipper and is under some one else's deception or maybe a bit of her own.
Much of the dialogue and the story was probably written and recorded ages ago. SH's romance scene is more than enough evidence of her true nature for me.

Sure if you look at my comment history you can see I was pretty early on the
SH has been captured and forced to convert train. But even if she is Patty Hearst, she's a Sharran for the time being . . . unless something persuades her to seek the light. Perhaps something that makes her glow with moonlight colors?

Bring back the frowns! On again / off again. Trust, retreat, repeat.

Don't have strong opinions on Lae'zel, she's just not my thing. I'll wait for the experts in D/s to tell me if her romance is true to form or not.
Posted By: Arne Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
We don't have any good characters in early access (that's what Swen said). Thats mean, Lae and Astarion are evil characters, only they fully approve of the destruction of the grove. I believe that both can be won over to "neutral" side, but I do not believe that either of them was originally "good/kind".

It would certainly be interesting to compare the current romances to the romances with 'good' characters. Just to get a feeling of the writing. Maybe my confusion with the present character options is solely because they are the supposedly 'evil' ones.

I mean, no one is supposed to genuinely like evil characters. Except Viconia of course. And president Snow. And...
Posted By: Rack Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
A third of people who participate in romances are romancing Shadowheart. This is Larian's own data. So again, please do not assume the loudest voices in the room is equivalent to the majority.

The thing is Shadowheart is obviously the default romance for male characters and we've already seen the average player is a human male fighter. That she only managed to net 31% of players is seriously weird. It's an open goal, no-one else is even on the pitch yet she's still managing to miss more than half the shots. Even if you assume the male female split is 51/49 Shadowheart should still be the breakout most popular choice. The dudebros have spoken and they are not impressed.

Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
Again, the game is designed for people to have different takeaways of these characters, and its within your right to dislike them, but clinging to first impressions doesn't mean they are poorly written. There is so much content in the game in regards to the characters that you are guaranteed to miss something. The order you talk to them changes how much they say, who you have recruited changes what they might say, how often you camp, how you resolve certain quest lines, who you have in your active party, etc.

I'm not sure what alternative takeaway there really is to have of Lae'zel. Bag of angry rats on the outside, bag of insecure angry rats on the inside is about as deep as she seems to get. Shadowheart has the kind of depth an angsty teen might make their first character
She's a priest of Lathander who thinks she's a priest of Shar and pretending to be a priest of someone else but she hasn't really put any thought into who.
but I'm not sure how you spin that in a good light.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 04/04/21 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by Arne
Originally Posted by Nyloth
We don't have any good characters in early access (that's what Swen said). Thats mean, Lae and Astarion are evil characters, only they fully approve of the destruction of the grove. I believe that both can be won over to "neutral" side, but I do not believe that either of them was originally "good/kind".

It would certainly be interesting to compare the current romances to the romances with 'good' characters. Just to get a feeling of the writing. Maybe my confusion with the present character options is solely because they are the supposedly 'evil' ones.

I mean, no one is supposed to genuinely like evil characters. Except Viconia of course. And president Snow. And...

I like villains, I like evil characters. So? This is bad? Huh. Also Gale 'romance' look pretty 'good', but he's more like a neutral character who can be bent into evil.

I also like that fact that I deleted my post because I thought it was unnecessarily ... rude? But someone still managed to answer it, while comparing fiction with reality, how sad. I'm not trying to justify villains, I love villains. I like evil characters. That's why I really don't want Astarion to be made into a "Fallen Angel" who just "made a mistake" or who was "traumatized", I don't like it.
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Current companions/romance options - 05/04/21 04:43 AM
Imo Astarion is just less hiding about his nature, meanwhile e. g. Gale will compliment your character on their good deeds if you play a hero, so a lot of players consider him good. But after taking Gale on an evil playthrough at best I could say about him is that he is a neutral character who abandons his principles after one conversation.

The only companion whom I couldn't keep on the full evil playthrough was Wyll*. So it looks like to me we have one companion who is good-leaning, and the rest is either evil, or neutral with weak morals.

*Not counting bugs here. I've had one conversation with Zevlor where he asked Wyll something but Wyll's response didn't trigger, and the tieflings in the cave went hostile. But this dialogue worked on patch 4, so perhaps there are other instances where companions don't react properly yet.
Posted By: Maiandra Re: Current companions/romance options - 05/04/21 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
Quote
"Check out last week’s update for the stats on that. Somewhat contradicturally, [Gale]’s the most “romanced” of the party. He’s been “romanced” by 33% of players. Shadowheart came second, falling in love with 31% of players, and in return 31% of players fell in love with Shadowheart.

1.37% of players chose to sleep alone. Which is cool too! We have the other stats, but thought it might be fun if you gave it a shot and guessed them. One thing we’re seeing is the stan memes aren’t correlating with the actual “romance data”. For sure, there’s enough tinder in the campfire to ignite some flames.
"
- Patch 2 Notes

A third of people who participate in romances are romancing Shadowheart. This is Larian's own data. So again, please do not assume the loudest voices in the room is equivalent to the majority.
I agree it's very important not to mistake the loudest as the most representative. However, right now they know what people are deciding, but not why they decide it.

For example, I have been playing charcters and making choices I wouldn't normally make, both to experiment and to leave my final experience with the game as somewhat new. I feel like asking people what they think directly would be more accurate than making assumptions about their decision-making based on in-game choices. At least with regard to some game elements.

A survey linked through the launcher so everyone has access to it would be a good way to do that. Then it doesn't require people to go to a certain board/site to have access to it, and it would be limited to people participating in early access.
Posted By: soulstalker Re: Current companions/romance options - 05/04/21 08:24 PM
Because it would never happen to me if this was real life, because everyone around me would know from the point they met me or pretty early on where I stand with that. I feel Larian should keep choices in this matter what the player finds the least offensive. Its no different then asking for a profanity toggle switch option. And for this one it should be made clear what each player wants as far as this by what they choose at character creation with the question proposed there with " Who do you love?"
Originally Posted by classl3ss
Originally Posted by soulstalker
Ok, I have been playing this early access for a while and its getting pretty annoying when my character as a male is getting male admirers during the party scene. There should be a toggle switch in options to remove that possibility and you only receive love interests from the opposite sex. The last time that happened I reloaded an old save and tried as i might to sway it to a female choice ( character was male), but eventually it came back to him asking to sleep with my character or kicking him out of camp permanently. I suppose I could just not meet/ remove any of the male allied characters and use configuration of the 2 female choices, but that would be both drastic and put my party on a disadvantage... but might be worth it in the long run if Larion doesn't put the option to filter out same sex allies as love interests.

Why does it bother you that men are hitting on men? Meaning, why is it not enough simply to say you are not interested? It is a fact of life that some people are queer, and it seems odd to think that in a game one should be able to 'turn off' queerness.


Because it would never happen to me if this was real life, because everyone around me would know from the point they met me or pretty early on where I stand with that. I feel Larian should keep choices in this matter what the player finds the least offensive. Its no different then asking for a profanity toggle switch option. And for this one it should be made clear what each player wants as far as this by what they choose at character creation with the question proposed there with " Who do you love?"
Posted By: soulstalker Re: Current companions/romance options - 05/04/21 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by Arne
Originally Posted by Nyloth
We don't have any good characters in early access (that's what Swen said). Thats mean, Lae and Astarion are evil characters, only they fully approve of the destruction of the grove. I believe that both can be won over to "neutral" side, but I do not believe that either of them was originally "good/kind".

It would certainly be interesting to compare the current romances to the romances with 'good' characters. Just to get a feeling of the writing. Maybe my confusion with the present character options is solely because they are the supposedly 'evil' ones.

I mean, no one is supposed to genuinely like evil characters. Except Viconia of course. And president Snow. And...


I don't know if that is fully true, i mean Wyll is most likely good aligned. thats why if you do all that is required to get Minthera he automatically and permanently leaves the party
Posted By: Zenith Re: Current companions/romance options - 05/04/21 09:52 PM
Gale probably doesn't leave you because, unlike Wyll, he will literally blow up if you're not there to feed him magical artifacts. Wyll knows he can at least look for Mizora himself. Gale is more pragmatic, even though like Kagha he would deem you a monster.

Either way, the reason so many people choose Shadowheart is because many people are unwilling to take the alternative of angry Janet Jackson.

And while the male prospects have fairly mediocre looks and even less flattering attire, none of them are as abrasive as Lazael.

I do bet a male githyanki prospect would be even less favored than Lazael because men that look like spaghetti noodles with no muscular bodies look far worse than thin women.
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Current companions/romance options - 05/04/21 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by Zenith
Gale probably doesn't leave you because, unlike Wyll, he will literally blow up if you're not there to feed him magical artifacts.
When my evil warlock convinced Gale to stay, which happens at the goblin party, Gale has not yet confessed or asked for any magical items. At this point he doesn't even know if the main character will agree to provide any artifacts for him. And an evil character ruthless enough to destroy the grove and kill the refugees is unlikely to care about his plight.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Current companions/romance options - 05/04/21 11:44 PM
Originally Posted by soulstalker
I don't know if that is fully true, i mean Wyll is most likely good aligned. thats why if you do all that is required to get Minthera he automatically and permanently leaves the party

Wyll is probably the closest one to being good, but I don't think he quite makes it over the line. He's willing to torture an innocent guy for information, and his hatred of goblins seems to run very, very deep.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 06/04/21 03:58 AM
Wyll is motivated by his own, very selfish, reasons: revenge and finding his patron. He certainly has some mean traits as suggested by that officer of the Flaming Fist at Waukeens Rest, if Wyll is in the party there.
So I'm pretty sure, he is a neutral character.
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Current companions/romance options - 06/04/21 06:51 AM
Originally Posted by fylimar
Wyll is motivated by his own, very selfish, reasons: revenge and finding his patron. He certainly has some mean traits as suggested by that officer of the Flaming Fist at Waukeens Rest, if Wyll is in the party there.
So I'm pretty sure, he is a neutral character.
I agree that Wyll is neutral, but I'd not say getting revenge for being mutilated is a selfish act in itself (unlike trying to find his patron). There is no possibility to get justice from goblins, since this particular tribe seems to be on the far end of chaotic evil.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: Current companions/romance options - 06/04/21 04:22 PM
Wyll is hard to put on the alignment grid because he wants to be chaotic good but keeps making evil choices. In the old 1st ed rules I put him as chaotic good with evil tendencies.

Torturing an innocent and killing someone after they have surrendered are evils acts. Choosing a devil as a patron and binding an evil creature to you (an imp) are also evil. I never let him summon the imp when he's in my party.

So you're right, my chaotic good toon clears the entire temple of Selune of the evil goblins. I even clean up the statues when Shadowheart isn't looking. So killing evil creatures isn't a bad act but the way you do it counts and killing any creature after it surrenders is evil. It's the same dilemma we see with the caged goblin -- the girl with the crossbow has a good reason to want revenge but good characters stop her before she can kill a defenseless prisoner.

And that's why I like Wyll. He's on the edge -- I can see him either as hero or villain by the end of the story.
Posted By: BeeBee Re: Current companions/romance options - 07/04/21 02:05 PM
I leave for six weeks and this thread about which companion is the most worthy of our sexy chars is still going? And nobody is pointing at the obvious, which is that Jergal should be the One Night Stand by excellence?
Think about it:

1) He has EXPERIENCE
2) Screw Astarion's "little death", we can get Big Daddy Death himself.
3) Same goes for Gale's Thousand Honeymoons Tome -- Jergal has read AND written more than Gale ever could, and knows what makes a killer romp
4) He's been sleeping and resting, so he's refreshed
5) If his approval goes up, he might give you a discount on those precious resurrection scrolls
6) FANE ROMANCE WAS THE BEST ROMANCE
7) He's so tall. Like, so tall. So. Tall. You. Guys.
8) And that long, long, unused staff.
9) And that low-cut tunic -- sexier than the Nightsong's bikini.
10) Think of the challenge!
11) He definitely knows what's going on, that pillow talk could be precious for your journey

Other than that, I'm going to pick my lovaaaaahs based on their hotness and experience because everyone is a backstabbing bastard. So:

1) Astarion, duh.

2) Shadowheart -- yes, she only kisses you, but she's had practical training in torture and infiltration, like James Bond, and she has the clearest emotional arc and connection with your char.

3) **gritting teeth*** Gale, because at the very least you can reach for that Kamasutra book of his, but he's still hooked on Mystra and is totally comparing your performance to that of a goddess. Still, I would like to "borrow" that book.

4) Wyll -- same issue as Shadowheart, BUT I'd bet my Menzonerranzan Hoodie that Mizora taught him some interesting tricks, and SHE, as a cambion, seems game for a threesome.

5) Lae'zel -- She seems a bit selfish and, despite her spitting bravado, a bit inexperienced in bed. Plus she's unfamiliar with "Faerûn Culture" and even dislikes it when you go through the Loviathar scene. Only if she reads Gale's book first.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 07/04/21 02:23 PM
About romances: I like Shadowheart. She is my goto romance now.
I tried the others, but I don't like that Gale and Wyll have emotional baggage in Form of a goddess and a demon, Lae'zels romance is kind of creepy and I don't like Astarion (I even did rat him out to that Gur once - that was fun).
I have high hopes for Karlach, whom I already like more than the rest of the companions combined.
Posted By: BeeBee Re: Current companions/romance options - 07/04/21 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by fylimar
About romances: I like Shadowheart. She is my goto romance now.
I tried the others, but I don't like that Gale and Wyll have emotional baggage in Form of a goddess and a demon, Lae'zels romance is kind of creepy and I don't like Astarion (I even did rat him out to that Gur once - that was fun).
I have high hopes for Karlach, whom I already like more than the rest of the companions combined.

Totally fair! Although my real-life sexual preferences do influence my first romantic targets, I always go for the others in the next playthroughs (or through the ever-trusty savescumming). The only exception is Minthara because she wants me to kill an entire grove of people and I just don't have the energy; Ma'am, we just met.

That said, I don't understand all the finger-wagging in this thread at trying to get into a villain's pants when D&D is famous for having bards fluting with dragons.
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Current companions/romance options - 07/04/21 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by BeeBee
I leave for six weeks and this thread about which companion is the most worthy of our sexy chars is still going? And nobody is pointing at the obvious, which is that Jergal should be the One Night Stand by excellence?
Well, if we are picking anyone we want, then I have to admit there is actually one npc that did pique my curiosity.

Korrilla
who burst in like a knight in shining armor to save my hapless character. grin
Posted By: BeeBee Re: Current companions/romance options - 07/04/21 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by BeeBee
I leave for six weeks and this thread about which companion is the most worthy of our sexy chars is still going? And nobody is pointing at the obvious, which is that Jergal should be the One Night Stand by excellence?
Well, if we are picking anyone we want, then I have to admit there is actually one npc that did pique my curiosity.

Korrilla
who burst in like a knight in shining armor to save my hapless character. grin


Ohhhhh you are SO RIGHT. She's so hot, and she has so much swagger!

On a related note, most of the Zhentarim are such snacks too, although I don't think that Larian would indulge us... the cost of dubbing and motion-capturing all those people would be astronomical.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Current companions/romance options - 07/04/21 09:01 PM
You jest, but an unconventional romance with a our talkative skeleton friend sounds like it could be very fun and a bit sweet. Especially if this was not in line with his experiences/predictions making it new territory for him.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Current companions/romance options - 07/04/21 10:21 PM
Originally Posted by fylimar
I don't like that Gale and Wyll have emotional baggage in Form of a goddess and a demon
Agree!
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Current companions/romance options - 07/04/21 11:43 PM
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by fylimar
I don't like that Gale and Wyll have emotional baggage in Form of a goddess and a demon
Agree!

It's just part of the grand tradition for male love interests in RPGs. I'm not sure why that's been such a thing...
Posted By: Maiandra Re: Current companions/romance options - 08/04/21 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by fylimar
I don't like that Gale and Wyll have emotional baggage in Form of a goddess and a demon
Agree!
It's just part of the grand tradition for male love interests in RPGs. I'm not sure why that's been such a thing...
As long as none of them say you remind them of their dead wife, I can deal with it. Yes, I'm looking at you, BioWare.
Posted By: Aazo Re: Current companions/romance options - 08/04/21 03:13 AM
I have to be completely honest.... I don't like any of the current options. Not one of them fits with the persona I have for my characters. But hey, I am picky in game just like in real life. As for the current options I am really not a fan of them as adventure partners either. I sincerly hope that Larian introduces a few more options before the end of the first act or I may end up soloing beyond that. We seriously need another thief, fighter, and cleric options that don't make me want to kill them after first meeting them. Heck.. that Zent halfling merchant in goblin town has a more practical and amenable personality than the ones we got thrown in with. Now she might make an excellent thief companion or lover.
Posted By: BeeBee Re: Current companions/romance options - 08/04/21 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
You jest, but an unconventional romance with a our talkative skeleton friend sounds like it could be very fun and a bit sweet. Especially if this was not in line with his experiences/predictions making it new territory for him.

I'm not jesting at all. Talkative Skelleton ticks every single one of my boxes, he's basically Hades. Specially with the new patch, when he comes to help you as soon as one of your companions are down, regardless of whether you explored the chapel or not.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Current companions/romance options - 08/04/21 01:25 PM
Originally Posted by BeeBee
Specially with the new patch, when he comes to help you as soon as one of your companions are down, regardless of whether you explored the chapel or not.

He does?! Great, now I have to kill someone to try this out...
Posted By: Hilarian Re: Current companions/romance options - 08/04/21 03:58 PM
I feel like the word romance needs to be a bit more cautious though after what they put me through in Divinity 2. XD

Most are more or less abandon you after the ending, Red Prince dump you for someone he just met that is supposedly his destiny. The word "romance" could just mean booty call. In general, you could see that in people like Lae'zel.
Posted By: Hilarian Re: Current companions/romance options - 08/04/21 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
True. And -- as you say -- it is because he has been written as a seducer but it is also due, in part, to the fact that he has the greatest potential for growth as character. In the morning after scene we (literally and figuratively) see how wounded he his and how his life would improve were he freed of his master.

Shadowheart had the same potential but Patch 3 kinda ruined her. She went from being a tough nut to crack, the person who lets very few people past her armor, to someone who gets gushy and cuddly after a night of kissing.

Notice how Shadowheart's meme economy has fallen while Astarian's has risen? Before the SH changes people were making goth-shadowheart / shadowheart disapproves memes. Now that she's gotten so darn agreeable people have turned their attention to the traumatized vampire spawn.

Is that a fair assessment though? Patch 3's disapproval change was for all the characters, which implied that the even the developers felt that the gateway to getting to know the characters was a tad too narrow. It was something even said in their recent interview. Hell, even Patch 4 added reading Astarion's mind, which made me sympathize for him in a scene I had otherwise read him as wholly manipulative before. The patch didn't ruin her.

The Shadowheart Larian wants players to know is more visible to see in Patch 3 than before, and the memes were of a caricature rather than the character itself (as all memes are). When people say the female characters are too mean I always want to correct them and say only Lae'zel is mean (bless her heart). Shadowheart was always intended to have a soft heart beneath it all.

I also think romances are most popular with women, and online fandom participation is more popular with women. So it does not surprise me that Astarion fans eclipse the fans of other characters in fandom spaces. No hate on that since I am part of that demographic. But I wouldn't use that as a metric of which character is the best written since I've seen many of these same fans boot or kill Shadowheart because she overrides Astarion's scenes. Give Astarion a chance by all means, but do the same to the others lol.
Did you know that almost all the phone game with "dating" components are aiming exclusively at straight guys. These dating sims type games tend to be more popular with guys as well. They made billions of dollars on that audience alone. In almost any game, the romance contents tend to be aiming at straight guys just based on the number of options and contents, so I would say it's the opposite. With that being said, the most popular romance is Gale followed by Shadowheart, based on their data. That should give you some indications because Gale's romance is pretty buggy and you could miss it if you don't get all of his approval scenes, and yet his romance is the most popular option based on actual statistic data. You can't judge the number of fans based on online presence. There are cases of passionate fans or "stans" who participate in these discussion more but when the polls or actual data are revealed, these characters fall behind in popularity.
Originally Posted by Hilarian
Did you know that almost all the phone game with "dating" components are aiming exclusively at straight guys. These dating sims type games tend to be more popular with guys as well. They made billions of dollars on that audience alone. In almost any game, the romance contents tend to be aiming at straight guys just based on the number of options and contents, so I would say it's the opposite. With that being said, the most popular romance is Gale followed by Shadowheart, based on their data. That should give you some indications because Gale's romance is pretty buggy and you could miss it if you don't get all of his approval scenes, and yet his romance is the most popular option based on actual statistic data. You can't judge the number of fans based on online presence. There are cases of passionate fans or "stans" who participate in these discussion more but when the polls or actual data are revealed, these characters fall behind in popularity.

That's exactly my point. Online presence does not equal true popularity. Larian's data outright states that. To my deeper point, I don't think how well received a character is or not equates to them being well or poorly written. If the narrative elements of the character are falling apart, then we'll talk. So far I like what we have for all the characters after seeing much of their scenes.
Posted By: BeeBee Re: Current companions/romance options - 09/04/21 03:27 PM
As a wise man said, encourage the creative fans; you can only tell one story, they can write a million (and promote yours in the process). From that point of view, Astarion (and Halsin!) are excellent ambassadors to entice new players, even if once they are in the game they discover Gale's charms and culinary prowess.

I would also like to take a look at Larian's data, because in the same breath as they released the romanceable "favourites" they said that 75% of the players chose to behave honourably, which can lock out Astarion and Lae'zel pretty easily. Lae'zel's quest is very unfinished, and you don't need her in the party as much as you need Shadowheart, a healer... so that also decreases your chance to interact with her.

So, are the players actually going for Gale and Shadowheart or are they just settling?
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 09/04/21 07:01 PM
There are some interesting character, we've met in the game, I would love as companions (doesn't have to be romances, just full fledged companions with a story): Alfira, Karlach (ok, she will be a companion and I'm looking forward to her), Abdirak, Halsin or Nettie or Kagha - all three would be interesting, but Halsin already is a travel companion, that deep gnome, you save at the windmill, one of the myconids, Mol.
All very interesting characters and it would be a shame, if they were just gone from the game. I can see us meeting some of them in Baldurs Gate again, but still, I want to know more about them.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 09/04/21 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by fylimar
There are some interesting character, we've met in the game, I would love as companions (doesn't have to be romances, just full fledged companions with a story): Alfira, Karlach (ok, she will be a companion and I'm looking forward to her), Abdirak, Halsin or Nettie or Kagha - all three would be interesting, but Halsin already is a travel companion, that deep gnome, you save at the windmill, one of the myconids, Mol.
All very interesting characters and it would be a shame, if they were just gone from the game. I can see us meeting some of them in Baldurs Gate again, but still, I want to know more about them.

I don't think someone with a standard face will be our companion. Karlach have this one npc face. So how do people have the information that she will be our companion?
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 09/04/21 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by fylimar
There are some interesting character, we've met in the game, I would love as companions (doesn't have to be romances, just full fledged companions with a story): Alfira, Karlach (ok, she will be a companion and I'm looking forward to her), Abdirak, Halsin or Nettie or Kagha - all three would be interesting, but Halsin already is a travel companion, that deep gnome, you save at the windmill, one of the myconids, Mol.
All very interesting characters and it would be a shame, if they were just gone from the game. I can see us meeting some of them in Baldurs Gate again, but still, I want to know more about them.

I don't think someone with a standard face will be our companion. Karlach have this one npc face. So how do people have the information that she will be our companion?
Datamining. She seems to be confirmed. She might get another face in the final release.
Posted By: Hilarian Re: Current companions/romance options - 12/04/21 02:15 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by fylimar
There are some interesting character, we've met in the game, I would love as companions (doesn't have to be romances, just full fledged companions with a story): Alfira, Karlach (ok, she will be a companion and I'm looking forward to her), Abdirak, Halsin or Nettie or Kagha - all three would be interesting, but Halsin already is a travel companion, that deep gnome, you save at the windmill, one of the myconids, Mol.
All very interesting characters and it would be a shame, if they were just gone from the game. I can see us meeting some of them in Baldurs Gate again, but still, I want to know more about them.

I don't think someone with a standard face will be our companion. Karlach have this one npc face. So how do people have the information that she will be our companion?
From the datamine, we will likely get 3 more companions, one male and 2 females. One of the classes is ranger. One of the launch companions will be a fan favorite returning from the previous 2 games. Karlach has voicelines and a lot of stuffs pointing to her being a companion, and all companions will be romanceable. I'm guessing they could make a face for her instead of a generic face, the current face could just be a placeholder.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Current companions/romance options - 12/04/21 02:37 AM
Originally Posted by Hilarian
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by fylimar
There are some interesting character, we've met in the game, I would love as companions (doesn't have to be romances, just full fledged companions with a story): Alfira, Karlach (ok, she will be a companion and I'm looking forward to her), Abdirak, Halsin or Nettie or Kagha - all three would be interesting, but Halsin already is a travel companion, that deep gnome, you save at the windmill, one of the myconids, Mol.
All very interesting characters and it would be a shame, if they were just gone from the game. I can see us meeting some of them in Baldurs Gate again, but still, I want to know more about them.

I don't think someone with a standard face will be our companion. Karlach have this one npc face. So how do people have the information that she will be our companion?
From the datamine, we will likely get 3 more companions, one male and 2 females. One of the classes is ranger. One of the launch companions will be a fan favorite returning from the previous 2 games. Karlach has voicelines and a lot of stuffs pointing to her being a companion, and all companions will be romanceable. I'm guessing they could make a face for her instead of a generic face, the current face could just be a placeholder.

I am hoping we get more Origin Characters so we have one for each class (including artificer but that is hope...). It'd make sense so people would have an origin option for monk or barbarian or sorcerer or such.
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Current companions/romance options - 12/04/21 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
I am hoping we get more Origin Characters so we have one for each class (including artificer but that is hope...). It'd make sense so people would have an origin option for monk or barbarian or sorcerer or such.
I watched a video last year saying that there would be at least 8 companions, so I am hoping with the EA's success that they are able to add more than 8. smile
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 12/04/21 07:53 AM
Originally Posted by Icelyn
I watched a video last year saying that there would be at least 8 companions, so I am hoping with the EA's success that they are able to add more than 8. smile
KInda doubt it ... since every "companion" means origin character with his own story. :-/
Allready quite heavy comitment with 8.

But we can allways hope for certain characters to become something like those Mercenaries ... just companions without their own story as main character.
(Halsin, Minthara, Halsin, Volo, Halsin, Sazza, Halsin, Scratch, Halsin!!!)
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Current companions/romance options - 12/04/21 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
(Halsin, Minthara, Halsin, Volo, Halsin, Sazza, Halsin, Scratch, Halsin!!!)
laugh up
Posted By: Arne Re: Current companions/romance options - 12/04/21 07:05 PM
Jepp, I support that the girls should get Halsin.

As for the guys... mmmh, how would a female Halsin look like? 🤔

Skimpy clothes - check. Good looking - check. She would have to be a bit more slender, but that's no problem. And morph into a cat or raven, not a bear.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Current companions/romance options - 12/04/21 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by Arne
Jepp, I support that the girls should get Halsin.

As for the guys... mmmh, how would a female Halsin look like? 🤔

Skimpy clothes - check. Good looking - check. She would have to be a bit more slender, but that's no problem. And morph into a cat or raven, not a bear.

Hey, some of the guys want Halsin too. Theres enough of him to go around
Posted By: Rack Re: Current companions/romance options - 13/04/21 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by Arne
Jepp, I support that the girls should get Halsin.

As for the guys... mmmh, how would a female Halsin look like? 🤔

Skimpy clothes - check. Good looking - check. She would have to be a bit more slender, but that's no problem. And morph into a cat or raven, not a bear.

Hey, some of the guys want Halsin too. Theres enough of him to go around

But also girls that don't want Halsin and are uncomfortable with the implication that only evil ladies like ladies.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 13/04/21 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by Rack
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by Arne
Jepp, I support that the girls should get Halsin.

As for the guys... mmmh, how would a female Halsin look like? 🤔

Skimpy clothes - check. Good looking - check. She would have to be a bit more slender, but that's no problem. And morph into a cat or raven, not a bear.

Hey, some of the guys want Halsin too. Theres enough of him to go around

But also girls that don't want Halsin and are uncomfortable with the implication that only evil ladies like ladies.

Agree, I much rather have Alfira as a romanceable companion, than any of the guys (good or evil) for example.
Posted By: Arne Re: Current companions/romance options - 13/04/21 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by Arne
Jepp, I support that the girls should get Halsin.

As for the guys... mmmh, how would a female Halsin look like? 🤔

Skimpy clothes - check. Good looking - check. She would have to be a bit more slender, but that's no problem. And morph into a cat or raven, not a bear.

Hey, some of the guys want Halsin too. Theres enough of him to go around

Let Halsin have his own character & personality. If he's into girls, you'll have to play a girl. If he's into men, you'll have to play a man.

Ah, it would be a really good joke if they made Halsin romanceable - and only into men :P That would be so absolutely mean wink
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Current companions/romance options - 13/04/21 10:24 PM
All BG3 romances are available to both men and women, so no worries there! smile
Posted By: Dez Re: Current companions/romance options - 14/04/21 06:03 AM
Originally Posted by Arne
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by Arne
Jepp, I support that the girls should get Halsin.

As for the guys... mmmh, how would a female Halsin look like? 🤔

Skimpy clothes - check. Good looking - check. She would have to be a bit more slender, but that's no problem. And morph into a cat or raven, not a bear.

Hey, some of the guys want Halsin too. Theres enough of him to go around

Let Halsin have his own character & personality. If he's into girls, you'll have to play a girl. If he's into men, you'll have to play a man.

Ah, it would be a really good joke if they made Halsin romanceable - and only into men :P That would be so absolutely mean wink

Missed first of April opportunity there, Larian...
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 14/04/21 08:45 AM
Originally Posted by Arne
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by Arne
Jepp, I support that the girls should get Halsin.

As for the guys... mmmh, how would a female Halsin look like? 🤔

Skimpy clothes - check. Good looking - check. She would have to be a bit more slender, but that's no problem. And morph into a cat or raven, not a bear.

Hey, some of the guys want Halsin too. Theres enough of him to go around

Let Halsin have his own character & personality. If he's into girls, you'll have to play a girl. If he's into men, you'll have to play a man.

Ah, it would be a really good joke if they made Halsin romanceable - and only into men :P That would be so absolutely mean wink

I would have agreed to it if they had made Astarion only for girls ^_~
Posted By: Arne Re: Current companions/romance options - 14/04/21 09:15 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I would have agreed to it if they had made Astarion only for girls ^_~

They can have him :P
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Current companions/romance options - 14/04/21 11:34 AM
Originally Posted by Arne
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I would have agreed to it if they had made Astarion only for girls ^_~

They can have him :P

But I don't want to lose my murderhobo elf vampire BF...
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 14/04/21 12:24 PM
Call me a sceptic, but Astarion seem much more like playersexual (or more like "anythingthatiswillingtoofferbloodsexual") than Halsin. laugh
Posted By: Arne Re: Current companions/romance options - 14/04/21 12:42 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Call me a sceptic, but Astarion seem much more like playersexual (or more like "anythingthatiswillingtoofferbloodsexual") than Halsin. laugh

I agree that in Astarions case, bisexuality or homosexuality might fit the character. But again, the 'character' should decide himself. Don't write a character to fit a spot or some quota. Let the characters decide what they want wink Make them 3 dimensional, including players having to deal with rejection.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 14/04/21 02:12 PM
Agree ...
But it was mentioned in several other topics ...

You either please the group that wish to romance everyone without needing to think twice about wich character they create ... or the second group that wish to have as deep characters as possible. :-/

So far the game have quite many smaller or bigger holes ... after all you are theoreticaly (didnt try so far) to create even completely nonsencial couples. :-/
Like romancing Shadowhearth as Githyanki.
Or subjucate Minthara as, pretty much anyone, since they all should be "lesser races" in her eyes. laugh
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 14/04/21 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Call me a sceptic, but Astarion seem much more like playersexual (or more like "anythingthatiswillingtoofferbloodsexual") than Halsin. laugh

It's true, Astarion and Lae are more like bisexuals than anyone else. But I wouldn't say Halsin looks like he's 100% gay. x)
Posted By: Arne Re: Current companions/romance options - 15/04/21 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Call me a sceptic, but Astarion seem much more like playersexual (or more like "anythingthatiswillingtoofferbloodsexual") than Halsin. laugh

It's true, Astarion and Lae are more like bisexuals than anyone else. But I wouldn't say Halsin looks like he's 100% gay. x)

Halsin looks like a manly man. Like a 'bear' of a man. A man that likes bears, beer and bodybuilding. And cars, but don't tell the other druids.

Now I'm imagining Halsin in his bear form holding a beer.
Originally Posted by Arne
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Call me a sceptic, but Astarion seem much more like playersexual (or more like "anythingthatiswillingtoofferbloodsexual") than Halsin. laugh

It's true, Astarion and Lae are more like bisexuals than anyone else. But I wouldn't say Halsin looks like he's 100% gay. x)

Halsin looks like a manly man. Like a 'bear' of a man. A man that likes bears, beer and bodybuilding. And cars, but don't tell the other druids.

Now I'm imagining Halsin in his bear form holding a beer.

I've seen some male Halsin fans! The bear joke is funnier in that regard.
Posted By: Arne Re: Current companions/romance options - 15/04/21 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
I've seen some male Halsin fans! The bear joke is funnier in that regard.

I'm also a male Halsin fan. But more like ~best buddies, who drink beer with the Goblins, watch Volo squirm & rescue Minthara from the clutches of evil... before realizing that Minthara is the evil.
Posted By: Maiandra Re: Current companions/romance options - 15/04/21 09:34 PM
I don't think making "romance" options playersexual means they must inherently lack depth. There are so many other facets of personality that can be explored that it doesn't need to be a defining trait.

For example:
  • Are they introverts or extroverts?
  • Do they think ahead or do they "fly by the seat of their pants"?
  • Are they empathetic to others pain/suffering or do they enjoy it?
  • Are they stoic or expressive?
  • Are they introspective or rooted in the sensory world?
  • Is their humour silly, dry, or non-existent?
  • Are they thoughtful or selfish?
  • Do they prefer to do things in a structured, consistent way or are they mercurial?
  • How do they deal with stressful situations (anger, humour, anxiety etc.)?
  • Is their decision-making pragmatic or emotional?
  • Do they like being the centre of attention or are they private?


Those are all extremes, so they might be one way in one situation but not in another. Why? Those are just a few of the things that could be explored to define someone's personality and flesh them out.
Posted By: Some_Twerp753 Re: Current companions/romance options - 15/04/21 11:20 PM
You can miss out of potential dialogue and facets of the characters though when they're playersexual though.
Cassandra in Dragonage: Inquisition is my first thought of an example. You can pick the 'romance' choices as a female and eventually, it comes to a head and she talks to you. A businesslike, harsh, stoic and proffessional person is awkward, nervous even when she explains that she's been pretending not to acknowledge the flirting and wants you to stop because she's not interested and you're clearly not getting the hint. People aren't 'baseline bi' in real life, but this is a game with elves and magic and wizards and dragons and brain-eating squidpeople so while I certainly would prefer a character to be a set sexuality (or they think they are-imagine the writing potential for an npc falling in love with what they think of as the 'wrong' gender) but... eh. The simple fact for me is; I don't care enough to howl in outrage over this, I would just like people to acknowledge that it sandblasts down a potentially interesting part of a character to bland nothingness.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 15/04/21 11:44 PM
Originally Posted by Some_Twerp753
You can miss out of potential dialogue and facets of the characters though when they're playersexual though.
Cassandra in Dragonage: Inquisition is my first thought of an example. You can pick the 'romance' choices as a female and eventually, it comes to a head and she talks to you. A businesslike, harsh, stoic and proffessional person is awkward, nervous even when she explains that she's been pretending not to acknowledge the flirting and wants you to stop because she's not interested and you're clearly not getting the hint. People aren't 'baseline bi' in real life, but this is a game with elves and magic and wizards and dragons and brain-eating squidpeople so while I certainly would prefer a character to be a set sexuality (or they think they are-imagine the writing potential for an npc falling in love with what they think of as the 'wrong' gender) but... eh. The simple fact for me is; I don't care enough to howl in outrage over this, I would just like people to acknowledge that it sandblasts down a potentially interesting part of a character to bland nothingness.

In fact, this is not the case and the "parts" that you are talking about are present in game.

For example, Gale and Wyll had romantic relationships with women in the past. Gale also pays attention to Shadow when they first meet. These are a kind of "flags", both of these characters so far look more like straight man. Shadow also looks like a straight girl. Why? Because in her "romantic dream" (if she's not lying) there was a man. These "flags" indicate character tastes. Writers prescribe these details (but not very clearly), developers leave choice to players, how they want to perceive it and what they will do it at all.

Yes, I think it's a bit strange if Gale approves of an affair with a male character. But you know what? The other player may see it differently. And in the end, he may fall in love with this particular character. He doesn't need another, but a well written gay character, he wants only this one. Because of the personality. And then what to do? Play as a female character? But this is a role-playing game, with choices, where you most often want to create something that you want for role-playing, and not only "for romance with a character", but you also want this romance.

That's why it's easier to "make everyone bi", let everyone decide for themselves "who is who", flags with characters personalities do not go anywhere. If someone "breaks" atmosphere by ignoring these "flags", then this is their own business.

Of course, this is only EA and my own impressions of the characters. But I am sure that there will be more of these "flags", and you will be able to better understand for whom this romance was written more, if, of course, you want.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Current companions/romance options - 16/04/21 12:06 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
In fact, this is not the case and the "parts" that you are talking about are present in game.

For example, Gale and Wyll had romantic relationships with women in the past. Gale also pays attention to Shadow when they first meet. These are a kind of "flags", both of these characters so far look more like straight man. Shadow also looks like a straight girl. Why? Because in her "romantic dream" (if she's not lying) there was a man. These "flags" indicate character tastes. Writers prescribe these details (but not very clearly), developers leave choice to players, how they want to perceive it and what they will do it at all.

Yes, I think it's a bit strange if Gale approves of an affair with a male character. But you know what? The other player may see it differently. And in the end, he may fall in love with this particular character. He doesn't need another, but a well written gay character, he wants only this one. Because of the personality. And then what to do? Play as a female character? But this is a role-playing game, with choices, where you most often want to create something that you want for role-playing, and not only "for romance with a character", but you also want this romance.

That's why it's easier to "make everyone bi", let everyone decide for themselves "who is who", flags with characters personalities do not go anywhere. If someone "breaks" atmosphere by ignoring these "flags", then this is their own business.

Of course, this is only EA and my own impressions of the characters. But I am sure that there will be more of these "flags", and you will be able to better understand for whom this romance was written more, if, of course, you want.
Only half of what @Some_Twerp753 is talking about is in the game. Gale and Wyll do discuss their romantic relationships with women and Gale even rebuffs Astarion. But there is no mention of any sexuality when the player pursues romance (or, more likely, when Gale and Wyll pursue romance with the PC). There is no Cassandra moment, when the NPC acts to reinforce earlier dialogue/backstory. The companions can all be bi, sure, but some type of "I've never been with a man before" dialogue, acting nervous, and/or not actively pursuing male PCs would be more consistent with their (stated) history and personality flags.
Posted By: Dez Re: Current companions/romance options - 16/04/21 01:42 AM
Hey, I am all for player sexuality. And while I really do appreciate that Larian makes our companion come to us instead of "forcing" us to pick romantic options in order to trigger future romances, I really do wish there would be more obvious "friendzone"-options early on. Some dialogues that very obviously are meant for those who do not want to pursue romance with that particular companion - AND PLEASE, LARIAN. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't wait until the game has the character standing there in front of you with flowers in hand.

If I had to pull an example, I'd bring DA:O to the discussion. I'll say that I absolutely loved the way one could handle Leliana - she hinted at liking your character physically, and you could just give her some responses that were so obvious friendzoning and her approval rating would move from the romantic flags ("interested" etc) to friend ("warm"), yet there seemed to be no harm done. She seemed happy with it and honestly, she seems a bit ... Spectacular to hide feelings if there were any so I don't believe I got deceived. Nor did I lose any approval rating (quite the opposite, I gained approval). Everybody walks out happily!

... HOWEVER, when it came to Alistair... Oh dear god, it was a fucking disaster. I thought of him as a silly brother so I got kinda weirded out when he started flirting. He started dropping romantic hints and I had no way to turn them down without being mean, so I picked as neutral options as possible - and well... Then there finally was the time when he came there asking for more and neutral options lead to kissing and intense music. I struggled for far longer than I am willing to admit to attempt to find a way to shut the romance down without being a dick - but honestly? It seems like it just wasn't possible. In the end I had to just tell him "yeah no, we're just friends" as he asks if he believes I could ever develop feelings for him (with the saddest puppy eyes I've ever seen in a game), ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS - NOT JUST ONCE (and this MUST have been a bug). I am not sure what went wrong with my play-through, but I just kept getting romance scenes with Alistair through-out the entire night when I was playing and I felt so horribly bad for shutting him down over and over.

Honestly - one could OBVIOUSLY argue that "but that could happen irl too so it is only appropriate" but Hells... That experience was nothing short of unpleasant, imo. And I might be overreacting, but I cannot even think of the game without feeling awkward and sad for not being able to stop the romance before it got that far (if you think I am reacting out of proportion now, then you should have seen my chat history with my brother who urged me to play DA:O while I was having these struggles - half of the conversation is in caps). I really did not want to hurt Alistair by turning him down the way I had to in the end - but I couldn't find any brakes to the development in time to stop it from being basically a full on proposal decline (and I looked REALLY hard from the beginning since I already had made my mind up about my character not wanting to tie down - especially not with a human, but rather just return to her clan one day). I still cannot start my saving in DA:O without severe feelings of regret and disturbance, so now I am wondering if I should just trash my current save and start-anew with a companion that *could* be an appropriate romance for Alistair, but that is not gonna be anytime soon considering my current feelings for the game...
Posted By: Sozz Re: Current companions/romance options - 16/04/21 02:18 AM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I think it's more than just the gating, it's a) the change of facial expressions and b) dialogues on the day after. I see SH as the nod to Viconia. Both clerics of Shar, same dark-seeking-the-light theme, same divide between the persona and the private. If you played the Viconia romance she spends about half of it trying push you away -- every other conversation ends with an insult. The last thing she says before abandoning her hard shell is "in trust lies death" apparently a drow saying and a foreshadowing since your romance does lead her to her death.

Yes, SH was always intended to be Tsundre but after patch 3 she lost the on-again / off-again quality of the Viconia romance and Shadowheart dropped the hard shell waaay to easily and waaay too quickly.

This is a crisis of faith story. Shar isn't about hope and new beginnings -- that's Lathander. Shar is about loss, pain and hidden resentments. What do you do when you worship loss and find hope?

Pretty sure the answer isn't: spend the next day smiling and flirting.

Make this its own feedback thread?

It shouldn't just be page 9

As for the pros and cons of playersexual companions...well my signature says it all.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 16/04/21 09:28 AM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Nyloth
In fact, this is not the case and the "parts" that you are talking about are present in game.

For example, Gale and Wyll had romantic relationships with women in the past. Gale also pays attention to Shadow when they first meet. These are a kind of "flags", both of these characters so far look more like straight man. Shadow also looks like a straight girl. Why? Because in her "romantic dream" (if she's not lying) there was a man. These "flags" indicate character tastes. Writers prescribe these details (but not very clearly), developers leave choice to players, how they want to perceive it and what they will do it at all.

Yes, I think it's a bit strange if Gale approves of an affair with a male character. But you know what? The other player may see it differently. And in the end, he may fall in love with this particular character. He doesn't need another, but a well written gay character, he wants only this one. Because of the personality. And then what to do? Play as a female character? But this is a role-playing game, with choices, where you most often want to create something that you want for role-playing, and not only "for romance with a character", but you also want this romance.

That's why it's easier to "make everyone bi", let everyone decide for themselves "who is who", flags with characters personalities do not go anywhere. If someone "breaks" atmosphere by ignoring these "flags", then this is their own business.

Of course, this is only EA and my own impressions of the characters. But I am sure that there will be more of these "flags", and you will be able to better understand for whom this romance was written more, if, of course, you want.
Only half of what @Some_Twerp753 is talking about is in the game. Gale and Wyll do discuss their romantic relationships with women and Gale even rebuffs Astarion. But there is no mention of any sexuality when the player pursues romance (or, more likely, when Gale and Wyll pursue romance with the PC). There is no Cassandra moment, when the NPC acts to reinforce earlier dialogue/backstory. The companions can all be bi, sure, but some type of "I've never been with a man before" dialogue, acting nervous, and/or not actively pursuing male PCs would be more consistent with their (stated) history and personality flags.

> "I've never been with a man before"

Only if they are written as bisexual, but I believe they are not written as bisexual, which is why there are these flags. This is why I say writers prescribe these details but not very clearly(!).
There is no mention of any sexuality, and there won't be, because in fact not all of them are written as bisexual. It's obvious. You're just allowed to make a choice, but the writer doesn't write every single one of these characters as bisexual. At least that's what I believe.

For example, someone playing a female character may decide that Gale is straight, but then phrase "this is my first time with a girl" will ruin everything. That's choice I'm talking about. I don't remember Larian saying "all our characters are bisexual", they just said that their attitude towards you will depend on your actions, not race or gender. But it's not same.

Also I don't remember that in Dragon Age 2 there were any references to sexuality in the same way, there were only "flags". The irony is that in DAI, Cassandra was not bi and a similar line was given to her for REJECT mc.
Posted By: Arne Re: Current companions/romance options - 17/04/21 08:58 AM
Pathfinder Kingmaker made it mostly right. You have some characters that are straight (Valerie, Tristian), some bisexual (Octavia and Regongar). I think there was no one straight homosexual, but maybe I don't remember, since I didn't actively look for it.

The only things I didn't like were:

(1) I couldn't romance Amiri with either sex, because she is some kind of original character
(2) It was far too easy to break up Regongar and Octavia. They basically immediately dump each other for the player.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 17/04/21 09:37 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
> "I've never been with a man before"
Í like this idea ...
It would be funny as hell, if he tells you after night spend together. laugh
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 17/04/21 10:21 AM
Originally Posted by Arne
Pathfinder Kingmaker made it mostly right. You have some characters that are straight (Valerie, Tristian), some bisexual (Octavia and Regongar). I think there was no one straight homosexual, but maybe I don't remember, since I didn't actively look for it.

The only things I didn't like were:

(1) I couldn't romance Amiri with either sex, because she is some kind of original character
(2) It was far too easy to break up Regongar and Octavia. They basically immediately dump each other for the player.
That sounds awful, the only options for homosexual characters are a couple you have to break up? No thanks.
Posted By: Arne Re: Current companions/romance options - 17/04/21 10:38 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Nyloth
> "I've never been with a man before"
Í like this idea ...
It would be funny as hell, if he tells you after night spend together. laugh

Actually, a sexually inexperienced companion/man would also be something new & kinda interesting. It's always a bit weird how everyone is always great at sex ^^


Originally Posted by fylimar
That sounds awful, the only options for homosexual characters are a couple you have to break up? No thanks.

Nope, you can enter into a three way relationship. I was only complaining about how *easy* it is to break them up because I consider that bad writing. As stated before, I wish characters to have their own mind & while it might certainly be possible to break up lovers, there should be a good reason for that.

I looked it up now. The options for bisexuals & homosexuals in Pathfinder Kingmaker are:

(1) Octavia, bisexual, in a relationship with Regongar, you can either go for a polyamorous (3 way) relationship or break them up
(2) Regongar, bisexual, in a relationship with Octavia, you can either go three way or break them up
(3) Kalikke and Kanera, twins sharing a body, bisexual
(4) Nyrissa, secret romance which I think is attainable with either sex

Options for heterosexuals:

(1) Valerie, straight
(2) Tristian, straight
(3) DLC, Maegar Varn, straight

-> So, they basically have a lot of straight & bisexual romances.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 17/04/21 10:58 AM
Originally Posted by Arne
It's always a bit weird how everyone is always great at sex ^^
I see you didnt slept with Lae'zel, did you? laugh
Posted By: Arne Re: Current companions/romance options - 17/04/21 12:04 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Arne
It's always a bit weird how everyone is always great at sex ^^
I see you didnt slept with Lae'zel, did you? laugh

Nooo, did I miss anything?

Actually I played too nicely & failed at all romances. And I'll probably only start a replay once a sorcerer class has been introduced & maybe some romances that are more appealing to me.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 17/04/21 12:08 PM
Originally Posted by Arne
Pathfinder Kingmaker made it mostly right. You have some characters that are straight (Valerie, Tristian), some bisexual (Octavia and Regongar). I think there was no one straight homosexual, but maybe I don't remember, since I didn't actively look for it.

The only things I didn't like were:

(1) I couldn't romance Amiri with either sex, because she is some kind of original character
(2) It was far too easy to break up Regongar and Octavia. They basically immediately dump each other for the player.

I just didn't like it. In romance with a male character, Regongar said something like "next time, be rude :)", and I immediately realized that I would not pass his romance as female character, I buried him, lol. For sure, Regongar should say a different phrase to a female character, but I already know about that phrase for a male character, so no thanks. And I'm not even talking about the FACT THAT HE'S ALREADY IN A RELATIONSHIP. >..< And then we have Tristian.... A TYPICAL FEMALE ROMANCE... for those who love snot. Not fun at all. It's like... I have no choice at all. That's why I prefer DA2 way, clarifications spoil my experience, like "that my first time with..." I don't want to know, I don't like it.


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Arne
It's always a bit weird how everyone is always great at sex ^^
I see you didnt slept with Lae'zel, did you? laugh

I also have information that Wyll's "blade" is not so good, haha
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Current companions/romance options - 17/04/21 12:36 PM
Originally Posted by Arne
Actually, a sexually inexperienced companion/man would also be something new & kinda interesting. It's always a bit weird how everyone is always great at sex ^^

Not entirely new, there's Alistair. You can have a funny conversation with Leliana about his possible lack of competence.

Originally Posted by Arne
I looked it up now. The options for bisexuals & homosexuals in Pathfinder Kingmaker are:

(1) Octavia, bisexual, in a relationship with Regongar, you can either go for a polyamorous (3 way) relationship or break them up
(2) Regongar, bisexual, in a relationship with Octavia, you can either go three way or break them up
(3) Kalikke and Kanera, twins sharing a body, bisexual
(4) Nyrissa, secret romance which I think is attainable with either sex

Options for heterosexuals:

(1) Valerie, straight
(2) Tristian, straight
(3) DLC, Maegar Varn, straight

Wow. I've spent decades grumbling about the lack of romantic options for straight female characters in video games, and I also grumbled about it (among other things) while playing Kingmaker, but holy snickerdoodles... for a gay male character it is so much worse...
Posted By: Arne Re: Current companions/romance options - 17/04/21 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I just didn't like it. In romance with a male character, Regongar said something like "next time, be rude :)", and I immediately realized that I would not pass his romance as female character, I buried him, lol. For sure, Regongar should say a different phrase to a female character, but I already know about that phrase for a male character, so no thanks. And I'm not even talking about the FACT THAT HE'S ALREADY IN A RELATIONSHIP. >..<

Waaaait, Octavia also said something about liking to have a certain, magical whip. Of course it's not revealed what happens if you give it to her (to my knowledge), but the implication is kinda there.

And I would remind everyone that a certain Imoen was talking a lot about kinky stuff... most people just missed it :O
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 17/04/21 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by Arne
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Arne
It's always a bit weird how everyone is always great at sex ^^
I see you didnt slept with Lae'zel, did you? laugh

Nooo, did I miss anything?
Maaaybe laugh
Posted By: Leucrotta Re: Current companions/romance options - 17/04/21 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by Arne
Pathfinder Kingmaker made it mostly right. You have some characters that are straight (Valerie, Tristian), some bisexual (Octavia and Regongar). I think there was no one straight homosexual, but maybe I don't remember, since I didn't actively look for it.

The only things I didn't like were:

(1) I couldn't romance Amiri with either sex, because she is some kind of original character
(2) It was far too easy to break up Regongar and Octavia. They basically immediately dump each other for the player.
That sounds awful, the only options for homosexual characters are a couple you have to break up? No thanks.
It's a depressing trend in rpgs. There are same sex romance options, but they are frequently bisexual, at the same time there are heterosexual-exclusive options. So heterosexual characters can romance whoever they want, while same sex options are limited to one or two non-exclusive options (if they exist at all, far from a given esp in older games.

Hell, even with the whole 'playersexual' thing Larian is going with, you can tell that every companion is written as 'heterosexual default' bar Asterion.

Learning that Pathfinder went that they not only went that route but made breaking up a couple a requisite thing if you didn't want to be bisexual polyamorous got a big 'what the hell' out of me back when I found out.

In regards to the whole 'playersexual' thing. 'everyone's bi' isn't perfect, but way better than the alternative which has historically tended to be 'here's a token playersexual character of each gender, everyone else is a heterosexual-exclusive option'. Which is just the same problem except it's less visible to people who only want heterosexual options.
Posted By: Arne Re: Current companions/romance options - 17/04/21 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by Leucrotta
It's a depressing trend in rpgs. There are same sex romance options, but they are frequently bisexual, at the same time there are heterosexual-exclusive options. So heterosexual characters can romance whoever they want, while same sex options are limited to one or two non-exclusive options (if they exist at all, far from a given esp in older games.

I'm sorry, but that's almost exactly reflecting real world demographics. You have something like 70% straight, 20%-30% bisexuals and maybe 1% pure homosexuals.

The funny thing is that games like Pathfinder are maybe the the most representative you can possibly get. & if you deviate from that, you start to actually discriminate one or the other group.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Current companions/romance options - 17/04/21 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by Arne
I'm sorry, but that's almost exactly reflecting real world demographics. You have something like 70% straight, 20%-30% bisexuals and maybe 1% pure homosexuals.

The funny thing is that games like Pathfinder are maybe the the most representative you can possibly get. & if you deviate from that, you start to actually discriminate one or the other group.
Source on those numbers? I'm finding sources that claim a much more even split between those that self identify as bisexual vs homosexual.

I wouldn't call "equal # of romance options for heterosexual and homosexual players" discrimination against the straights. Like, sure, it doesn't reflect real world demographics. But who cares about that? The important thing is that ^ promotes inclusivity, making games a much more friendly place for those who are often persecuted irl, while still retaining equal opportunity for all.
Posted By: Arne Re: Current companions/romance options - 17/04/21 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
The important thing is that ^ promotes inclusivity, making games a much more friendly place for those who are often persecuted irl, while still retaining equal opportunity for all.

Thank you for stating your goals so honestly.

Games, books and movies exist to please and entertain the readers and players, make them ponder difficult questions, scare them or have a good laugh. They don't exist to harass people with politics in their precious free time, run election campaigns or promote any specific religious, ideological or political views.

If you do that, people will get annoyed and rightfully so. In the best case, they will simply go to Pathfinder or Witcher and your game will fail. In the worst, they will start to actively oppose and downvote your preferred views, simply because you are invading their precious time off.
Posted By: Maiandra Re: Current companions/romance options - 17/04/21 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by Dez
Hey, I am all for player sexuality. And while I really do appreciate that Larian makes our companion come to us instead of "forcing" us to pick romantic options in order to trigger future romances, I really do wish there would be more obvious "friendzone"-options early on. Some dialogues that very obviously are meant for those who do not want to pursue romance with that particular companion - AND PLEASE, LARIAN. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't wait until the game has the character standing there in front of you with flowers in hand.

If I had to pull an example, I'd bring DA:O to the discussion. I'll say that I absolutely loved the way one could handle Leliana - she hinted at liking your character physically, and you could just give her some responses that were so obvious friendzoning and her approval rating would move from the romantic flags ("interested" etc) to friend ("warm"), yet there seemed to be no harm done. She seemed happy with it and honestly, she seems a bit ... Spectacular to hide feelings if there were any so I don't believe I got deceived. Nor did I lose any approval rating (quite the opposite, I gained approval). Everybody walks out happily!

... HOWEVER, when it came to Alistair... Oh dear god, it was a fucking disaster. I thought of him as a silly brother so I got kinda weirded out when he started flirting. He started dropping romantic hints and I had no way to turn them down without being mean, so I picked as neutral options as possible - and well... Then there finally was the time when he came there asking for more and neutral options lead to kissing and intense music. I struggled for far longer than I am willing to admit to attempt to find a way to shut the romance down without being a dick - but honestly? It seems like it just wasn't possible. In the end I had to just tell him "yeah no, we're just friends" as he asks if he believes I could ever develop feelings for him (with the saddest puppy eyes I've ever seen in a game), ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS - NOT JUST ONCE (and this MUST have been a bug). I am not sure what went wrong with my play-through, but I just kept getting romance scenes with Alistair through-out the entire night when I was playing and I felt so horribly bad for shutting him down over and over.

I agree that Leliana was very well done, especially how you can be a good friend with her or move into something more, but it wasn't this abrupt shift. Even though my DA:O character was involved with Allistair, I was sorely tempted to have her ditch him for Leliana just because I liked her character so much.

I think the issues with camping and companion interaction queuing in BG3 make it hard for the game to convey companion interest in stages. I was actually surprised a few days ago by a dialogue with Astarion that I hadn't encountered before where he expresses his interest (without actually propositioning your character) and your character can express interest back or shut it down.

Maybe they do have those kinds of conversations planned in for everyone and they're just really easy to miss. However, if they don't, then a couple conversations like that would make things seem a lot less abrupt when you get to the party night. It would also allow your character to let the companion know if they're not interested (or not yet), and that would flag them not make future overtures. However, if they did do it that way, then I think they should still leave it open to pick things up again later (assuming you weren't rude about it). It might be easy to miss certain cues otherwise (or you might just be playing a romantically clueless character).
Posted By: Sozz Re: Current companions/romance options - 17/04/21 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by Arne
Pathfinder Kingmaker made it mostly right. You have some characters that are straight (Valerie, Tristian), some bisexual (Octavia and Regongar). I think there was no one straight homosexual, but maybe I don't remember, since I didn't actively look for it.

The only things I didn't like were:

(1) I couldn't romance Amiri with either sex, because she is some kind of original character
(2) It was far too easy to break up Regongar and Octavia. They basically immediately dump each other for the player.

I actually liked the Regongar Octavia relationship, it was based on mutual trauma, which when taken away revealed more about their individual characters, so influencing them to stay together or splitting them apart made sense to me.

As for Amiri I would maybe clarify that her not being romanceable is fine, but you not even being able to attempt to romance her is a shortcoming.

Talking about the split between availability of relationships based on sexual orientation is one thing, but less common than all of that is characters who will reject your advances in general.
Posted By: Leucrotta Re: Current companions/romance options - 18/04/21 03:57 AM
Originally Posted by Arne
Originally Posted by Leucrotta
It's a depressing trend in rpgs. There are same sex romance options, but they are frequently bisexual, at the same time there are heterosexual-exclusive options. So heterosexual characters can romance whoever they want, while same sex options are limited to one or two non-exclusive options (if they exist at all, far from a given esp in older games.

I'm sorry, but that's almost exactly reflecting real world demographics. You have something like 70% straight, 20%-30% bisexuals and maybe 1% pure homosexuals.

The funny thing is that games like Pathfinder are maybe the the most representative you can possibly get. & if you deviate from that, you start to actually discriminate one or the other group.
Treating same sex-relationships and heterosexual-relationships as equal is 'discrimination'. Well that's certainly a take.

What exactly would be lost by having Valerie and Tristian as Bi? Nothing. Certainly not anything tantamount to an 'invasion' or 'harassment' like you suggest. You'd still be able to court them with your opposite-sex player characters.

I definitely feel like a lot of the backlash against 'playersexual' romance amounts to people being uncomfortable that 'the gays' are 'too visible'.

IMO what Larian is doing is more or less the best course of action available. Everyone can go with whichever option they want without feeling like they were arbitrarily denied so-and-so.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Current companions/romance options - 18/04/21 05:18 AM
Originally Posted by Leucrotta
I definitely feel like a lot of the backlash against 'playersexual' romance amounts to people being uncomfortable that 'the gays' are 'too visible'.
True, though I'd argue that this is less so for games with playersexual companions than it is for games with high frequency of specifically bi/homosexual companions (where they have explicitly stated backstory or current in-game dialogue/relationships reinforcing those sexualities). Playersexuality has its own, though significantly overlapping, set of arguments against it.

For BG3 in particular, a big offender is probably that all the characters jump you at the same time, which gets lumped together with playersexual companions under the broad "problems with romance in BG3" discussion. Of course, playersexual companions doesn't have to mean that all companions jump you, let alone they jump you at the same time; this is just how it happens in BG3 EA. If companions' attention was spread out more and/or the player had to initiate any romance, I imagine that the complains about romance in BG3 would probably drop significantly.

Originally Posted by Leucrotta
IMO what Larian is doing is more or less the best course of action available. Everyone can go with whichever option they want without feeling like they were arbitrarily denied so-and-so.
It is definitely the *safest* course of action, but not necessarily the best. In an optimal-world, games should create believable characters of varying sexualities, of course making sure to not rely on harmful stereotypes. Importantly, and this should easily be possible for a game with ~8 companions plus other "romance" opportunities (e.g., Minthara), there should be enough romance options to allow players of any gender/sexuality to have good options. This was a main problem for CP2077, which had 1 romance option for each combination of man/woman & straight/gay. No one wants to be shoehorned into a single option of anything.

Of course, this is hard to do properly and probably requires hiring more writers that can write believable and non-offensive lgbt characters. And implementing it poorly will invite backlash from both sides. Of course, doing so properly & with care will still inevitably anger the players who think that the majority of romance options should be straight. But that's fine. You can't please everyone.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Current companions/romance options - 18/04/21 05:44 AM
My problem has nothing to do with player sexuality. It is a lack of any kind of build up to the moment. There's no real flirting, teasing, joking, or relationship building. It literally goes from 0 to 60. The most flirting that is done is Gale hitting on Shadowheart when you first meet him which goes against flirting with the main. My first thought was, "Okay. Those two are off limits. They obviously have something building there. Next."

But then, nothing. Then suddenly, "Let's bunk tonight."

I recall KOTOR. Now that was fun. What I liked about it was you had to work at it, banter, etc. It built up to a point in the game when it made sense for the romance to reach the fade to black moment. It wasn't just a bam slam in the moment out of nowhere thing where everyone in your party is like, lets go baby.

I wouldn't mind a character initiating something, if they'd been building towards it already and you were reciprocating. This, however, is not that.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 18/04/21 08:52 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
My problem has nothing to do with player sexuality. It is a lack of any kind of build up to the moment. There's no real flirting, teasing, joking, or relationship building. It literally goes from 0 to 60. The most flirting that is done is Gale hitting on Shadowheart when you first meet him which goes against flirting with the main. My first thought was, "Okay. Those two are off limits. They obviously have something building there. Next."

But then, nothing. Then suddenly, "Let's bunk tonight."

I recall KOTOR. Now that was fun. What I liked about it was you had to work at it, banter, etc. It built up to a point in the game when it made sense for the romance to reach the fade to black moment. It wasn't just a bam slam in the moment out of nowhere thing where everyone in your party is like, lets go baby.

I wouldn't mind a character initiating something, if they'd been building towards it already and you were reciprocating. This, however, is not that.

I'm tired of talking about it, but...

1. It's EA
2. Astarion have at least 1 flirting scene
3. there are more cut scenes with the possibility of flirting. Larian just didn't added this in game yet. but these scenes are in files.

So I believe that flirting is not something we need to worry about.
Posted By: Amirit Re: Current companions/romance options - 18/04/21 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
It is definitely the *safest* course of action, but not necessarily the best. In an optimal-world, games should create believable characters of varying sexualities, of course making sure to not rely on harmful stereotypes. Importantly, and this should easily be possible for a game with ~8 companions plus other "romance" opportunities (e.g., Minthara), there should be enough romance options to allow players of any gender/sexuality to have good options. This was a main problem for CP2077, which had 1 romance option for each combination of man/woman & straight/gay. No one wants to be shoehorned into a single option of anything.

Player-sexuality - while definitely the safest and most fair option - strips LIs of their sexuality (they can not talk about it or anyhow indicate. The good attempt was in DA2, when Anders had a special line for gay Hawk, but this is only one example I can think of).

I still do not understand why not take the next step and add sexuality for protagonist? You choose who your character is - gay, bi or straight - and potential LI reacts accordingly. A few lines changed depending on your choice would make the whole romance more believable, the existence of the sexuality will be admitted, and yet you would be able to get anyone you want.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Current companions/romance options - 18/04/21 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by Amirit
Player-sexuality - while definitely the safest and most fair option - strips LIs of their sexuality (they can not talk about it or anyhow indicate. The good attempt was in DA2, when Anders had a special line for gay Hawk, but this is only one example I can think of).

I still do not understand why not take the next step and add sexuality for protagonist? You choose who your character is - gay, bi or straight - and potential LI reacts accordingly. A few lines changed depending on your choice would make the whole romance more believable, the existence of the sexuality will be admitted, and yet you would be able to get anyone you want.
I mean, you do already somewhat choose your protagonist's sexuality through your choices of who to romance. There doesn't need to be a specific flag that you choose at character creation.

I think a better option would be to add more dialogue options to when companions proposition you if you accept/reject them, including of course a "none of your business why I don't want to sleep with you" option.
Posted By: Dez Re: Current companions/romance options - 18/04/21 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by Maiandra
Originally Posted by Dez
Hey, I am all for player sexuality. And while I really do appreciate that Larian makes our companion come to us instead of "forcing" us to pick romantic options in order to trigger future romances, I really do wish there would be more obvious "friendzone"-options early on. Some dialogues that very obviously are meant for those who do not want to pursue romance with that particular companion - AND PLEASE, LARIAN. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't wait until the game has the character standing there in front of you with flowers in hand.

If I had to pull an example, I'd bring DA:O to the discussion. I'll say that I absolutely loved the way one could handle Leliana - she hinted at liking your character physically, and you could just give her some responses that were so obvious friendzoning and her approval rating would move from the romantic flags ("interested" etc) to friend ("warm"), yet there seemed to be no harm done. She seemed happy with it and honestly, she seems a bit ... Spectacular to hide feelings if there were any so I don't believe I got deceived. Nor did I lose any approval rating (quite the opposite, I gained approval). Everybody walks out happily!

... HOWEVER, when it came to Alistair... Oh dear god, it was a fucking disaster. I thought of him as a silly brother so I got kinda weirded out when he started flirting. He started dropping romantic hints and I had no way to turn them down without being mean, so I picked as neutral options as possible - and well... Then there finally was the time when he came there asking for more and neutral options lead to kissing and intense music. I struggled for far longer than I am willing to admit to attempt to find a way to shut the romance down without being a dick - but honestly? It seems like it just wasn't possible. In the end I had to just tell him "yeah no, we're just friends" as he asks if he believes I could ever develop feelings for him (with the saddest puppy eyes I've ever seen in a game), ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS - NOT JUST ONCE (and this MUST have been a bug). I am not sure what went wrong with my play-through, but I just kept getting romance scenes with Alistair through-out the entire night when I was playing and I felt so horribly bad for shutting him down over and over.

I agree that Leliana was very well done, especially how you can be a good friend with her or move into something more, but it wasn't this abrupt shift. Even though my DA:O character was involved with Allistair, I was sorely tempted to have her ditch him for Leliana just because I liked her character so much.

I think the issues with camping and companion interaction queuing in BG3 make it hard for the game to convey companion interest in stages. I was actually surprised a few days ago by a dialogue with Astarion that I hadn't encountered before where he expresses his interest (without actually propositioning your character) and your character can express interest back or shut it down.

Maybe they do have those kinds of conversations planned in for everyone and they're just really easy to miss. However, if they don't, then a couple conversations like that would make things seem a lot less abrupt when you get to the party night. It would also allow your character to let the companion know if they're not interested (or not yet), and that would flag them not make future overtures. However, if they did do it that way, then I think they should still leave it open to pick things up again later (assuming you weren't rude about it). It might be easy to miss certain cues otherwise (or you might just be playing a romantically clueless character).

I very much agree with everything you said. There should be options to at least temporary stop romantic advances, but - if I would have it my way, it wouldn't be permanent. Especially not if Larian is planning to do some big plot twists and/or character development.

I mean, imagine this:

You turn down edgy Vampire boy Astarion because well... Edge and evil - then he turns out to be a really noble and heroic person... Buuut, your romance with him is forever halted.
You turn down the funny and charismatic Gale - and then it turns out that he is aiming to become a god himself and is really quite evil. And you play a Evil character... Bummer.
You turn down Shadowheart because she is secretive and emotionally unstable - buuut then she gets her memories back and turns out to be a really caring and sweet Selûne priestess... Well sh!t.
You turn down Lae'zel because she is too brutish and seems to only care about physical attractions - but then it turns out that she is this really sweet wifu material...
You turn down Wyll because he is too self-absorbed and obsessed with his demon patron - aaand then it turns out that once he is rid of her, he becomes a more humble hero - trying to make the world a better place little by little.

Point is, for all we know - these characters could develop to be the polar opposite of what they are now (or at least what we think they are). While I do support being able to at least somewhat halt the incoming "romance"-options, I think it would be really weird if Larian allowed us to burn our bridges permanently when we don't even know them (obviously that could be an option too - but it has to be so obvious that no one would do it by mistake, like you said. Something REALLY mean and/or that leaves no doubt - like being a sworn hermit/nun).
Posted By: Rack Re: Current companions/romance options - 18/04/21 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Amirit
Player-sexuality - while definitely the safest and most fair option - strips LIs of their sexuality (they can not talk about it or anyhow indicate. The good attempt was in DA2, when Anders had a special line for gay Hawk, but this is only one example I can think of).

I still do not understand why not take the next step and add sexuality for protagonist? You choose who your character is - gay, bi or straight - and potential LI reacts accordingly. A few lines changed depending on your choice would make the whole romance more believable, the existence of the sexuality will be admitted, and yet you would be able to get anyone you want.
I mean, you do already somewhat choose your protagonist's sexuality through your choices of who to romance. There doesn't need to be a specific flag that you choose at character creation.

I think a better option would be to add more dialogue options to when companions proposition you if you accept/reject them, including of course a "none of your business why I don't want to sleep with you" option.

You do, but currently the way you express that is woefully insufficient. Maybe in Astarion's case it can get to the propositioning stage since he's such an incorrigible flirt. Shadowheart too since she's helplessly dimwitted. But the other characters should have sussed out you aren't interested way before then.
Posted By: Zarna Re: Current companions/romance options - 18/04/21 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I mean, you do already somewhat choose your protagonist's sexuality through your choices of who to romance. There doesn't need to be a specific flag that you choose at character creation.

I think a better option would be to add more dialogue options to when companions proposition you if you accept/reject them, including of course a "none of your business why I don't want to sleep with you" option.
Agreed. I don't want that who do you dream of crap to have a sexuality flag at all. I still want to pretend it can be anyone important in your life (good or bad) including someone you have no sexual interest in. smile

Originally Posted by Dez
I very much agree with everything you said. There should be options to at least temporary stop romantic advances, but - if I would have it my way, it wouldn't be permanent. Especially not if Larian is planning to do some big plot twists and/or character development.
As someone who thinks romance in games is completely pointless and unnecessary, I agree with you. I don't mind having to ignore dialogue options multiple times just to not have to have this stuff in my game, most likely it would be something I would never say anyway (like other dialogues in any conversation.) Perhaps there should be dialogue options all the way up to the last act of the game (at which point companion personalities would most likely be finalized) that would allow the player to express interest in someone. I would say even further in but most likely those who like this stuff want time for it to develop a bit?
Posted By: Amirit Re: Current companions/romance options - 18/04/21 10:12 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I mean, you do already somewhat choose your protagonist's sexuality through your choices of who to romance. There doesn't need to be a specific flag that you choose at character creation.

I think a better option would be to add more dialogue options to when companions proposition you if you accept/reject them, including of course a "none of your business why I don't want to sleep with you" option.

What about bi option? I am all for subtlety, but we do choose our gender anyway and adding sexuality in a game, where it matters somewhat, these days should be just a logical next step, no? The option "no romanses" can be added too, so people indifferent or disliking this sort of things can play in peace as well.

Do not think it will be implemented any time soon in any game, but one can still hope.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Current companions/romance options - 18/04/21 10:21 PM
Originally Posted by Zarna
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I mean, you do already somewhat choose your protagonist's sexuality through your choices of who to romance. There doesn't need to be a specific flag that you choose at character creation.

I think a better option would be to add more dialogue options to when companions proposition you if you accept/reject them, including of course a "none of your business why I don't want to sleep with you" option.
Agreed. I don't want that who do you dream of crap to have a sexuality flag at all. I still want to pretend it can be anyone important in your life (good or bad) including someone you have no sexual interest in. smile
Oh yeah, lol, I totally forgot about the dream interest thing we have to specify at the beginning. Yeah that is more than enough of a "choose your sexuality" options in this game, no need for additional flags that affect your companions. Also, how would your companions even know of your sexuality without getting it through dialogue (flirting, etc)?

Originally Posted by Amirit
What about bi option? I am all for subtlety, but we do choose our gender anyway and adding sexuality in a game, where it matters somewhat, these days should be just a logical next step, no? The option "no romanses" can be added too, so people indifferent or disliking this sort of things can play in peace as well.

Do not think it will be implemented any time soon in any game, but one can still hope.
Why should sexuality be a logical step? If the protagonist's sexuality matters, then it can be shown through dialogue options. If it doesn't matter, then why do we need to specify it?
Sexuality is very different from gender, because gender affects your character model whereas sexuality does not. (Honestly, games should probably start offering more options than just male and female, but that's its own can of worms)

I don't disagree with a "no romance" flag, for people who are uncomfortable with all/some romances or for people who don't particularly want to play a dating sim. But this is better solved by in-game romances being initiated by the player instead of the companions.
Posted By: Amirit Re: Current companions/romance options - 18/04/21 11:48 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Why should sexuality be a logical step?

For some people it is part of identity and since we already have several different options for in-game romances, why not include it for protagonist as well?

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
If the protagonist's sexuality matters, then it can be shown through dialogue options.

Sure, but this way player would not have to go through the extra dialogs if player does not want to. It simplifies things and clearly indicates what game do you want to play.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I don't disagree with a "no romance" flag, for people who are uncomfortable with all/some romances or for people who don't particularly want to play a dating sim. But this is better solved by in-game romances being initiated by the player instead of the companions.

Tastes are different - I, for once, prefer more proactive companions. Again, as a compromise (same with player-sexuality) it is fine and can be made in a way, that once you clicked a special dialog options - romance begins and LI is active, but if you played DA2 (DAO too, actually) you should remember how many problems misclicks created. With the flag system misclicks simply would not happen.

I do not see any drawbacks with the flags, only simplification and an option for everyone to get a better game.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Current companions/romance options - 19/04/21 02:19 AM
@Amirit
I guess I don't particularly want to assign my protagonist's sexuality at character creation. That seems like too much detail and not necessary given the other means of managing relationships in game. This seems like a better fit for game settings vs an intrinsic trait of my protagonist.

Simplification isn't necessarily the ultimate goal. I would prefer NPCs and my protagonist to have dialogues discussing why relationships would or would not work rather than me just setting a character trait and then skipping all those conversations. The latter seems antithetical to the "roleplaying" part of roleplaying games.
Posted By: Amirit Re: Current companions/romance options - 19/04/21 09:41 AM
This is the point - you are not skipping anything. As of now chances to get a really meaningful dialogues on that particular subject in any game (probably including dating sims, though could not say for sure) are even less than developing a mechanical system. I am talking only about existing trends, where the number of options is already in place, but the system to handle it still did not emerge.

But it sounds as we are discussing something probable. Most likely neither wish will ever be fulfilled.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 19/04/21 01:41 PM
The problem with player-sexuality is a little deeper than only "to be or not to be ... bi". laugh
Personaly i mind much more that no one seem to care if they lay down with Tall Elf, Hairy Dwarf, Tiny Gnome, Scaly Dragonborn, or Beautifull (:D) Gith. :-/

I would honestly dont mind if Gale would have kink for Elves ...
Concidering how half-breeds are spreaded in DnD its quite common among humans ... but dont tell me such person will be attracked by small, hairy, smelly, Dwarf (no matter the sex, they are all small, hairy and smelly) just the same. :-/
Posted By: BeeBee Re: Current companions/romance options - 19/04/21 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
The problem with player-sexuality is a little deeper than only "to be or not to be ... bi". laugh
Personaly i mind much more that no one seem to care if they lay down with Tall Elf, Hairy Dwarf, Tiny Gnome, Scaly Dragonborn, or Beautifull (:D) Gith. :-/


Kith'rak-senpai noticed me, y'all. horsey


[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 19/04/21 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
The problem with player-sexuality is a little deeper than only "to be or not to be ... bi". laugh
Personaly i mind much more that no one seem to care if they lay down with Tall Elf, Hairy Dwarf, Tiny Gnome, Scaly Dragonborn, or Beautifull (:D) Gith. :-/

I would honestly dont mind if Gale would have kink for Elves ...
Concidering how half-breeds are spreaded in DnD its quite common among humans ... but dont tell me such person will be attracked by small, hairy, smelly, Dwarf (no matter the sex, they are all small, hairy and smelly) just the same. :-/

This! My friend I am very concerned about this. Astarion would never sleep with a dwarf or a halfling. Shadow wouldn't have gone to bed with Git! Both have enough "flags" to show it... And this can be seen even more clearly than someone's tastes as male/female. I mean both looks like they hate this race. It's like Gale say 'I dont sleep with man ugh' AND THEN U BANG HIM. Rude.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 19/04/21 05:48 PM
Exactly ...
I understand that people dont like limitations, and it could be a little problematic to let ... Lae'zel for example to sleep with any of those "lesser races" ... but i think that Gith can appreciate capable person no matter of their shape. laugh
Still, concidering how she interacts with Tieflings, its hard to me to imagine her with one and feel like its good. O_o
Posted By: Sozz Re: Current companions/romance options - 20/04/21 12:34 AM
In an era of D&D where in-universe descriptions of Orcs are considered problematic and WotC will revise material to make their pastiche of Gothic Horror's gypsy stand-ins less stereotypical . What are the chances the big main stream game is going go this deep on race?

There are people who don't even like the word 'race' being used to describe the different...races. I couldn't think of an alternative.

I remember watching a recent review or recap of Baldur's Gate II, which does have gender and race gates, that called it problematic by modern standards, but I don't really know what the general feeling on this is. And to be fair if there's anyone replaying Baldur's Gate today, they're probably modding around that if they want to.

Species? That sounds too broad.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 20/04/21 08:58 AM
It also dont sounds right ... at least not to me.
I mean sure, if we will compare Human and Dragonborn, then species is completely fine ... since they have almost nothing in common.
But is Elf really so different species from Human, just since they live a lot longer and have pointy ears? :-/

Also most pairs of different species as far as i know is uncompatible to create kids together ... yet, here we have Half-breeds with almost everything and humans. laugh
Maybe breed would be a good word. laugh
But that is not point of this topic. :-/
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 20/04/21 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
In an era of D&D where in-universe descriptions of Orcs are considered problematic and WotC will revise material to make their pastiche of Gothic Horror's gypsy stand-ins less stereotypical . What are the chances the big main stream game is going go this deep on race?

There are people who don't even like the word 'race' being used to describe the different...races. I couldn't think of an alternative.

I remember watching a recent review or recap of Baldur's Gate II, which does have gender and race gates, that called it problematic by modern standards, but I don't really know what the general feeling on this is. And to be fair if there's anyone replaying Baldur's Gate today, they're probably modding around that if they want to.

Species? That sounds too broad.

I hope that everything will be fine because Larian is not an American developer, which really matters. Otherwise, we would have already received the Witcher by Netflix. I mean, for some universes, races and relationships between them, even negative ones, are part of the story, part of the plot, and that's how it should be. There was a lot of racism in the original Witcher, and that's part of the plot. You can't cut out some historical part of the universe just because it is "offensive" to someone.

I don't see a problem with word "race"... If someone sees this as a problem, then it's their problem, not content problem. But I do not know why you bring up this post here. We've talked about this only in romance context.
Posted By: vometia Re: Current companions/romance options - 20/04/21 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I don't see a problem with word "race"... If someone sees this as a problem, then it's their problem, not content problem. But I do not know why you bring up this post here. We've talked about this only in romance context.

Yeah, it's not really on topic and it tends to go to some non-awesome places, so let's not go there.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Current companions/romance options - 20/04/21 06:24 PM
The only way it is on topic is if the character themself is racist and wouldn't romance a specific race, but even then there is tropes of hate love or moving past past grievances and stuff like that. Legolas and Gimli are a famous bromance (or romance under certain interpretations) and evoke similar themes. And specifically with Laezel, I feel like she actually begins to respect the others around her, and Shadowheart mellows out realizing that (in her eyes) you aren't a "bad" gith, I think?

Moving away from that entirely (and can delete that if people want), it seems a solution to Playersexuality being maintained is to just add more specific dialogue? Something that indicates past relations or what they like, like: "Many a man and woman have tried to lay with the blade, but only a select few have caught my eye~" or something like that. Confirmation on what they did in the past and how it relates to the present. A line like that would indicate that he saw himself as Bi (or just attractive to both) and was able to have flings outside of Mizora.
Another example. Like I actually wouldn't be surprised if Gale was a virgin or never had a relationship outside of his obsession with Mystra so you could give him a line like, "I never expected to feel this way about someone else... a mortal... A man..." or something like that that gives him a sense of retrospection and idea that he might have thought himself Straight before but now thats shifted. Similarly Astarion could says something like, "I never had a chance to do something like that in 200 years, Cazador never.... well, that doesn't matter anymore since you are here." giving an indication of the lack of relationships he might have had being a thrall or on the flipside could give a line about how he enjoyed a specific gender or even race while being a servant of the night and it was nice going out of his comfort zone and that he'd like to try again soon.

tldr; I suggest adding dialogue that gives some of the characters a sort of past with their sexuality that also reconciles the present playersexuality.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Current companions/romance options - 20/04/21 06:48 PM
Yeah, I'm sorry I brought up the dreaded word. I was mostly thinking about the different attitude towards this compared to Baldur's Gate II and today. BG:II had characters who didn't romance the PC if they were x or y. The real problem there was it just wouldn't happen, because all the companion conversations were all banter timer/triggers, you were either eligible for or not, instead of what I hope is more common today, having the game deal with it in a more conscious way.

The biggest place this intersects with the EA is Lae'zel or a Gith PC. I'm not a Githyanki expert but based on Lae'zel's and the Dragon Knight's attitudes, they seem to be Githyanki chauvanists, which just makes me view all their interactions with non-gith through a rubric and be especially conscious of anything inconsistent with that attitude.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 20/04/21 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
The only way it is on topic is if the character themself is racist and wouldn't romance a specific race, but even then there is tropes of hate love or moving past past grievances and stuff like that. Legolas and Gimli are a famous bromance (or romance under certain interpretations) and evoke similar themes. And specifically with Laezel, I feel like she actually begins to respect the others around her, and Shadowheart mellows out realizing that (in her eyes) you aren't a "bad" gith, I think?

Moving away from that entirely (and can delete that if people want), it seems a solution to Playersexuality being maintained is to just add more specific dialogue? Something that indicates past relations or what they like, like: "Many a man and woman have tried to lay with the blade, but only a select few have caught my eye~" or something like that. Confirmation on what they did in the past and how it relates to the present. A line like that would indicate that he saw himself as Bi (or just attractive to both) and was able to have flings outside of Mizora.
Another example. Like I actually wouldn't be surprised if Gale was a virgin or never had a relationship outside of his obsession with Mystra so you could give him a line like, "I never expected to feel this way about someone else... a mortal... A man..." or something like that that gives him a sense of retrospection and idea that he might have thought himself Straight before but now thats shifted. Similarly Astarion could says something like, "I never had a chance to do something like that in 200 years, Cazador never.... well, that doesn't matter anymore since you are here." giving an indication of the lack of relationships he might have had being a thrall or on the flipside could give a line about how he enjoyed a specific gender or even race while being a servant of the night and it was nice going out of his comfort zone and that he'd like to try again soon.

tldr; I suggest adding dialogue that gives some of the characters a sort of past with their sexuality that also reconciles the present playersexuality.

Well, yea, this is an interesting version, but right now companions do not react to our race in any way, and we do not react to them either. So it would be a nice addition.

As for the "specific dialogues", it already exists, I wrote about it above. Gale is somehow attracted to girls based on his dialogues, he constantly talks about Goddess and flirts with Shadow, for example. But people who talk about "sexuality" clearly want more or something more specific. And to be honest, I think that not everyone will like it, or I personally do not like it, since I have a negative experience in Pathfinder.

Someone has already suggested a similar option, for someone like Gale to say " wow, this is my first time with a man...", but this can actually ruin someone's game.
Personally, I would have loved a dragonborn companion. Also as romanceable, of course. There's gotta be a Red Prince equivalent, methinks! wink
Perhaps I can mod Gale or someone to get the dragonborn appearance! =)
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 20/04/21 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
if the character themself is racist and wouldn't romance a specific race, but even then there is tropes of hate love or moving past past grievances and stuff like that.
That is certainly one of possible reasons ...

Personaly i dont see anything racist in not being attacted in one metter tall "(fe-)male" with beard, deep harsh woice and beer breath ...
Especialy if you are elf. laugh

Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Legolas and Gimli are a famous bromance (or romance under certain interpretations) and evoke similar themes.
Touché ...
But they would never work so well, without that hostility from beginning ... if they never concider other one hideous from start, their friendship in the end would be worthless. frown

Originally Posted by CJMPinger
And specifically with Laezel, I feel like she actually begins to respect the others around her, and Shadowheart mellows out realizing that (in her eyes) you aren't a "bad" gith, I think?
Lae'zel is kinda specific character ... since she clearly states that your night spend together was only sex for her, no emotional attachments included.
(yet, maybe?)

Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Moving away from that entirely (and can delete that if people want), it seems a solution to Playersexuality being maintained is to just add more specific dialogue? Something that indicates past relations or what they like, like: "Many a man and woman have tried to lay with the blade, but only a select few have caught my eye~" or something like that. Confirmation on what they did in the past and how it relates to the present. A line like that would indicate that he saw himself as Bi (or just attractive to both) and was able to have flings outside of Mizora.
Another example. Like I actually wouldn't be surprised if Gale was a virgin or never had a relationship outside of his obsession with Mystra so you could give him a line like, "I never expected to feel this way about someone else... a mortal... A man..." or something like that that gives him a sense of retrospection and idea that he might have thought himself Straight before but now thats shifted.
Similarly Astarion could says something like, "I never had a chance to do something like that in 200 years, Cazador never.... well, that doesn't matter anymore since you are here." giving an indication of the lack of relationships he might have had being a thrall or on the flipside could give a line about how he enjoyed a specific gender or even race while being a servant of the night and it was nice going out of his comfort zone and that he'd like to try again soon.
Love theese all! :3

Originally Posted by CJMPinger
tldr; I suggest adding dialogue that gives some of the characters a sort of past with their sexuality that also reconciles the present playersexuality.
Sadly it would never work as good if everyone would still be playersexual. frown
How about this?
Adding racial and sexual preferences ... but not to decline to our characters that particular romance completely, but simply delay it for later ... after all, we have only seen part of Act 1 ... i bet it should never end with one-night adventure ...
So while some Elf girl would lay Gale first night ...
Dwarf (fe-)male will have some bro-drinking scene ... and have to wait for that hot night to another romance scene. :P
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Current companions/romance options - 20/04/21 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Sadly it would never work as good if everyone would still be playersexual. frown
How about this?
Adding racial and sexual preferences ... but not to decline to our characters that particular romance completely, but simply delay it for later ... after all, we have only seen part of Act 1 ... i bet it should never end with one-night adventure ...
So while some Elf girl would lay Gale first night ...
Dwarf (fe-)male will have some bro-drinking scene ... and have to wait for that hot night to another romance scene. :P

Actually, being slower with the romances all around wouldn't be a bad idea, moving many of them to Act 2 could not hurt at all and would allow for more room to develop relationships so it feels more realistic for say Shadowheart to romance a Gith or Gale to romance when he still has that little bit of obsession with a goddess. Would allow for adding more bonding scenes cause most everyone seems to get around one (maybe two?) scenes that could have a romantic subtext before you are flung into afterparty sex.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/04/21 02:03 AM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Sadly it would never work as good if everyone would still be playersexual. frown
How about this?
Adding racial and sexual preferences ... but not to decline to our characters that particular romance completely, but simply delay it for later ... after all, we have only seen part of Act 1 ... i bet it should never end with one-night adventure ...
So while some Elf girl would lay Gale first night ...
Dwarf (fe-)male will have some bro-drinking scene ... and have to wait for that hot night to another romance scene. :P

Actually, being slower with the romances all around wouldn't be a bad idea, moving many of them to Act 2 could not hurt at all and would allow for more room to develop relationships so it feels more realistic for say Shadowheart to romance a Gith or Gale to romance when he still has that little bit of obsession with a goddess. Would allow for adding more bonding scenes cause most everyone seems to get around one (maybe two?) scenes that could have a romantic subtext before you are flung into afterparty sex.

Only Lae and Astarion have sex scenes, for obvious reasons, it's not really feelings and romance, it's just sex.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
So while some Elf girl would lay Gale first night ...
Dwarf (fe-)male will have some bro-drinking scene ... and have to wait for that hot night to another romance scene.

The question is, will Larian want to spend resources on this? Making a few extra scenes isn't that easy.
Posted By: Maiandra Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/04/21 03:13 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
...right now companions do not react to our race in any way...
I have noticed a scant few instances where they do refer to your species:
  • Lae'zel mentions it when she insults your nose after you free her (after you mention her species).
  • When Shadowheart comments that she never thought she would have cared about tieflings, she includes you in that if you are a tiefling.
  • Astarion says he's "not normally impressed by people of your stature but..." if you're a halfling (and presumably if you were dwarf).
Posted By: Sozz Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/04/21 03:43 AM
The biggest instances are understandably when you play as a Drow or Githyanki, but never so much that it really hinders your story progress or relationships.
Posted By: vometia Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/04/21 04:09 AM
Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I don't see a problem with word "race"... If someone sees this as a problem, then it's their problem, not content problem. But I do not know why you bring up this post here. We've talked about this only in romance context.

Yeah, it's not really on topic and it tends to go to some non-awesome places, so let's not go there.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
if the character themself is racist and wouldn't romance a specific race, but even then there is tropes of hate love or moving past past grievances and stuff like that.
That is certainly one of possible reasons ...

Personaly i dont see anything racist in not being attacted in one metter tall "(fe-)male" with beard, deep harsh woice and beer breath ...
Especialy if you are elf. laugh
[snip]

Originally Posted by Maiandra
Originally Posted by Nyloth
...right now companions do not react to our race in any way...
I have noticed a scant few instances where they do refer to your species:
  • Lae'zel mentions it when she insults your nose after you free her (after you mention her species).
  • When Shadowheart comments that she never thought she would have cared about tieflings, she includes you in that if you are a tiefling.
  • Astarion says he's "not normally impressed by people of your stature but..." if you're a halfling (and presumably if you were dwarf).

Guys. suspicion
Posted By: vometia Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/04/21 08:34 AM
Posts have gone away. Please stop bringing up the subject of race because previous experience has shown that it ends badly.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/04/21 08:42 AM
Originally Posted by vometia
Posts have gone away. Please stop bringing up the subject of race because previous experience has shown that it ends badly.

Did my post offend? You took it out. Is it totally deleted? Can you please tell me how it was not good? I spent a lot of time on it, and I thought it made some really good points. Now the whole thing is gone. I'd have rather edited it and taken out things you didn't approve of. 😔

Ah, you know what. Never mind. I don't care. Sorry to bug you. What does it matter anyway? I'm wasting too much of my time out here anyway.
Posted By: vometia Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/04/21 08:53 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Did my post offend? You took it out. Is it totally deleted? Can you please tell me how it was not good? I spent a lot of time on it, and I thought it made some really good points. Now the whole thing is gone. I'd have rather edited it and taken out things you didn't approve of. 😔

Ah, you know what. Never mind. I don't care. Sorry to bug you. What does it matter anyway? I'm wasting too much of my time out here anyway.

It's been moved. I'll PM it to you and you can remove the bits in question and resubmit it. The post itself was not offensive but the matter of race is something we have previously had problems with because it's something that can quickly degenerate so I'm afraid it's off limits.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/04/21 10:21 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Only Lae and Astarion have sex scenes, for obvious reasons, it's not really feelings and romance, it's just sex.
I believe that Gale also had sex ... and Wyll was certainly trying to. laugh
Shadow seem to be the most inocent tho. smile

Otherwise, i agree ... so far its just sex, the true feelings will came in time.
And i bet they come just moments before we loose that companion for some reason. laugh

Originally Posted by Nyloth
The question is, will Larian want to spend resources on this? Making a few extra scenes isn't that easy.
True, but that is not our place to decide ...
Our job is to suggest, so im suggesting. laugh

Originally Posted by vometia
Posts have gone away. Please stop bringing up the subject of race because previous experience has shown that it ends badly.
I dont understand this, not even a little bit ...
My post was one of quoted ... but its still there, no change at all. O_o Was i included by misstake?

Also to be compeltely honest, i cant quite understand how exactly are we suppose to provide feedback on some matter, that cant be discuised just bcs some people can missunderstand it, twist it, and being angry about that thing they just made up themselves by twisting it. O_o
Im sorry, but this is just odd theese days ... rather not talk about something that might gone bad when people ruin it? :-/ Soon we would not talk at all. :-/
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/04/21 12:27 PM
Honestly, I think the safest way for Larian to no is to not tie any character to anything in particular but make them available for all. The character I was most interested in before I played this game for the first time was Lae'zel. She was the most unique of all the characters. I would have been disappointed if I played the game and had her romance locked and unable to be triggered for any reason.

That said, I, the player, should still have to make some choices that determine who hits on my main, who wants to sleep with him/her, etc., and my choices should make it easier or harder to accomplish this. In other words, I think the system only needs to be tweaked a little.

For example, if I make a male character, and a male dream love, this should trigger the game that I prefer a homosexual relationship. If I pick male and female, it should trigger heterosexual relationship. This would be by default. Then, if later I am female but I flirt with Shadowheart, but my dream person is male, that should tell the game that I might prefer both and that the game should now leave open all my options. That's the kind of thing I mean. My choices determine who is available for romance so that I don't have Wyll hitting on my male Drow when I clearly chose heterosexual choices, and likewise I don't have Wyll hitting on my female Tiefling when I clearly chose homosexual choices, etc. So don't lock the options for any reason, but maybe tailor the options for romance based on decisions you've made.

Either this or just leave it up to the player to initiate all romance period and don't have any character hit on the main. The main has the option to pursue who they want and leave it at that rather than having the romance options pursue the main.

And, I still think the romances really lack more depth. There needs to be more dialogue and options to spend time alone with the ones you like prior to sex. Maybe have options every long rest to spend time with someone. If your relationship meter is neutral or better they agree. If not, then they refuse. The more you do this, the more your relationship meter might increase or decrease depending on what you talk about during those alone times. These alone times should be what pushes the relationship closer to that full blown romance point, not so much the choices you make all throughout your journey. Those should still affect your romances, but not as much as when you are alone with a person.

This would be the more appropriate time for some of the dialogues already in place too. When Shadowheart bears her secret to you, it should be off alone, during an intimate, private time with just you. If alone, she is mote gentle and less twitchy because it's just the two of you. Wyll could tell you about his secret during such a time. If you respond well, you gain relationship points. After you learn about Astarion, if you ask him to be alone with you then he might be more open about Casador. But then you could have times when the other character initiates it, like Gale wanting to tell you about his other condition. "Let's go somewhere private to discuss." Then based on your responses during your private time, that has a much bigger impact on the relationship.

Then after a certain number of times alone with the person then they might have sex with you if you've boosted the relationship meter to that point by spending alone time with them and getting along with them. But it should take time, more so for some than others. Romance is not really built upon whether a person likes your convos with others. It is built more on whether they like your convos with them, alone, spending alone time with them.

Right now, there is not real alone, intimate time with anyone in the game and then BAM! So its not romance but more like a one night stand and the characters are willing to sleep with you because you made decisions they liked such as refusing to help Sazza, and killing gobbos. Man! Nothing gets Wyll going more than killing gobbos. He really finds that attractive in a person and is willing to bunk with you if you do. Doesn't matter what kind of person you really are, if the gobbo heads roll, he is hot for you.
Posted By: Maiandra Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/04/21 05:19 PM
Originally Posted by vometia
... the matter of race is something we have previously had problems with because it's something that can quickly degenerate so I'm afraid it's off limits.
Thank you for that clarification; it wasn't apparent from your previous post that you meant all mention of it across the board, even implementations of it already present in-game. However, I can understand how you would not want something to spill over into real world issues.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/04/21 11:06 PM
It is difficult not to discuss race, though, because the fact is that race does impact the choices and dialogue of the game. So I'm not sure how we're going to address certain game elements related to race if we can't even talk about it at all.

My comments were in regards to race versus romance options and mechanics. How can we discuss race with regards to romance? I know it's a touchy subject, but it is a big part of the game. 😬
Posted By: Sozz Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/04/21 12:02 AM
I think the situation here might be indicative of what we can expect from the game.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/04/21 03:05 AM
I don't know about that. I just think Vometia has a lot of crazy posts she has to sift through with a lot of cranky people. I do not envy the job she has. We're all crazy nut fans who are sometimes a bit too passionate and we start attacking one another. She's just trying to keep the peace.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make most is that the romance felt all wrong with all characters. We need more relationship than current state. There needs to be dynamics. Some scenes should be the whole party discussing issues and making plans. Gale's Raphael Courting dialogue could be a group dialogue, for example.

But then we need more intimate dialogues when it comes to who you are trying to romance. There are whole areas of the camp that arent being used. Have the main and their chosen romance slip away and have private dialogues "Down by the River." 😁 Shadowhearts confession, or Lae'zel confessing her concerns about the tadpole not doing what it should be doing, Wylls Spike story or Astarion talking about his past...all these should have a more intimate setting as opposed to standing in the middle of camp talking about it in front of everyone.

And THESE moments should be what really drives the romance, not whether I succeeded or failed in saving Arabella. If I disregarded Arabella and she died, yeah, this might make it harder to woo Gale or Wyll, but even these things should ne able to be discussed during these alone times.

Example, you don't save Arabella on purpose. That night, you ask Gale to chat alone. During the chat, Gale asks why you didn't try to save her. You then get options to explain your actions. Choose well and it actually impresses him. Choose poorly and you hurt your chances for romance with him further. Things like that would be more meaningful and make more sense.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/04/21 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by Sozz
I think the situation here might be indicative of what we can expect from the game.
Im affraid you are right. :-/

@GM4Him
I dunno ... it might end like that, since its easyest way to satisfy ... well, most at least if not everyone, wich is entirely impossible.
But i would like to see our companions to have some preferences, just bcs its natural ... it makes the characters more whole / deep / beliveable ... however you want to call it.
I dare to say that nobody in the world is soo loose in his taste to have sex with litteraly anyone. :-/
Except our companions ... and i see that as a misstake (and seeing last few paiges on this topic ... im not alone wink ).
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Current companions/romance options - 23/04/21 07:18 AM
Randomly, seeing as this is on its 6th page, would this qualify as a mega thread topic?
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 23/04/21 09:26 AM
Last few days i see mostly this suggestion on this forum, between new messages ... i have wild idea ...
How about keep on topic, and let moderators to decide wich they concider mega-threads? O_o
Posted By: Ragnarök Re: Current companions/romance options - 30/04/21 01:36 PM
I think for a male straight player character there are very little romance options currently in the game, which is somewhat disappointing. I only consider female humans and elfs & drow, including half elves to be attractive and therefore viable options for romance anyway. Not interested in Tieflings, do you really want a woman with horns sticking out of her head and a tail out of her ass? I don't. Lae is ugly, so are the Gith in general in my opinion. Then there is the drow woman Minthara, but only if you choose the evil path. Since I didn't and prefered to slay the goblins and save the druids, that only leaves Shadowheart for me, but she isn't my type, because I'm a sucker for blondes with some curves at the right spots. I really hope, Larian will add more options than that.
There is of course also the dream girl the player can define during character creation, but she seems to be just a cruel Illithid mindfuck trick, which is really bad. I hoped that we'll be able to meet this defined character during character creation as real npc later in the game, not just as a mind flayer illusion. Anyway I hope for a lot more romance options in the future than what the early access version is offering.
Posted By: Shyshyn4ik Re: Current companions/romance options - 09/05/21 04:06 AM
For a long time I looked at the arts on the game's intro. The question arose: Is Gale really undead? His hand is like the hand of a lich... And only from him there is an aura of death.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Current companions/romance options - 09/05/21 08:59 AM
Originally Posted by Shyshyn4ik
For a long time I looked at the arts on the game's intro. The question arose: Is Gale really undead? His hand is like the hand of a lich... And only from him there is an aura of death.

He may not be undead, but he's pretty close to it, I think. His condition may be the reason for this artistic interpretation.

I will say that none of the current group is really romance worthy to me. Shadowheart is kinda a jerk most of the time. Lae'zel IS one, and she was the one I thought would be most interesting before playing the game. I still think there's more to her than people think. I think Lae'zel is far more than she seems and is putting on a tough girl act just because she's proud. Wait and see. I bet she's actually someone with a whole lot more depth. And Idk. I never thought the gith were that ugly. It's like Klingons. They're near humans with some cosmetic differences.

But anyway, Gale is nice and all, but he's...TOO nice. I think he's actually a bit more of an Emperor Palpatine behind that cocky grin. Did you see that one image with the skeletons and the lightning? Yeah. I took that as a hint that he's a bit crazy and I imagined him screaming, "UNLIMITED POWER!!!" in that image. His romance story kinda gave me the same vibe.

Astarion...yeah. I actually like his personality as he is a fun character to chat with. As a romance, though, Im not into the whole Twilight thing.

Wyl is cocky and too into his own fame and glory, and he's pretty much a devil-lover who Im pretty sure is bound to her forever. Nice guy and all in general, but...

And Minthera is nuts. She's straight up crazy. I imagine a romance with her is like a romance with Harley Quinn. Never know when the Joker might come in with a sledge hammer and smash your skull in, if she doesn't do it first.
Posted By: Shyshyn4ik Re: Current companions/romance options - 09/05/21 11:54 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Astarion...yeah. I actually like his personality as he is a fun character to chat with. As a romance, though, Im not into the whole Twilight thing.

It seems to me that Astarion was created according to the principle: "What do fangirl 16+ love?"
They "love the Twilight Saga", so let's take a vampire! Of the other RPGs, the favorite hero is Fenris. A runaway slave who hates his former master! Great, let's take it! Something is missing... And, for sure, fangirl love Dorian from the Dragon Age Inquisition, his manner of communication, but he is only for guys. Let's fix it! And so we got the most ideal lover for the female Mary Sue.

Strange feeling of the character...
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Current companions/romance options - 09/05/21 12:33 PM
Originally Posted by Shyshyn4ik
It seems to me that Astarion was created according to the principle: "What do fangirl 16+ love?"

Hahahaha... I had to laugh at this, because even though I'm in my late 30s and married, Astarion makes me feel like I'm a 16-year-old goth again. :P

Never read Twilight though, nor do I care to. Back then, "Interview with the Vampire" was amazing, and Vampire: the Masquerade RPG. Anyway.
Posted By: Shyshyn4ik Re: Current companions/romance options - 09/05/21 01:00 PM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Never read Twilight though, nor do I care to. Back then, "Interview with the Vampire" was amazing, and Vampire: the Masquerade RPG. Anyway.

Nuu... to Lestat, Astarion is still far away)))))))))))))))))))
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 09/05/21 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by Shyshyn4ik
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Astarion...yeah. I actually like his personality as he is a fun character to chat with. As a romance, though, Im not into the whole Twilight thing.

It seems to me that Astarion was created according to the principle: "What do fangirl 16+ love?"
They "love the Twilight Saga", so let's take a vampire! Of the other RPGs, the favorite hero is Fenris. A runaway slave who hates his former master! Great, let's take it! Something is missing... And, for sure, fangirl love Dorian from the Dragon Age Inquisition, his manner of communication, but he is only for guys. Let's fix it! And so we got the most ideal lover for the female Mary Sue.

Strange feeling of the character...

Not even close... You forget the most important thing, Astarion is evil. None of these characters are evil. He has something in common with Lestat, they are both drama queens and so selfish. But Astarion is still better, at least for now. Lestat regretted his actions, worried, burned in the sun and sobbed bloody tears. Astarion? He enjoys it, that's why I love him.

And that's what makes him different from other typical characters of this type.

By the way, to get Astarion's approval, you need to play as evil. I don't think Mary Sue is usually defined as "evil characters".

It is also worth considering that there is nothing original in the world, we can always find something "similar", but it will never be the same.
Posted By: Shyshyn4ik Re: Current companions/romance options - 09/05/21 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Not even close... You forget the most important thing, Astarion is evil. None of these characters are evil. He has something in common with Lestat, they are both drama queens and so selfish. But Astarion is still better, at least for now. Lestat regretted his actions, worried, burned in the sun and sobbed bloody tears. Astarion? He enjoys it, that's why I love him.

And that's what makes him different from other typical characters of this type.

By the way, to get Astarion's approval, you need to play as evil. I don't think Mary Sue is usually defined as "evil characters".

It is also worth considering that there is nothing original in the world, we can always find something "similar", but it will never be the same.

Вообще не похож. С Лестатом из фильма, а речь шла именно о фильме "Интервью с Вампиром" 1994 г., общего, кроме того что оба вампиры, ничего нет. Я смею предположить, что вы говорите на русском, и если да, то я оставлю текст в оригинале, так будут понятнее мои мысли.
Для того чтобы получить одобрение Астариона, вам не надо играть за зло. Совсем.
Я первый раз играла, за мужчину следопыта полуэльфа. Я спасла тифлингов, пообещала Нетти випить яд, убила Каргу, спасла девочку от друидки, убила гоблинов, помогла друиду Хальсинду, пообещала спасти герцега, делала одни добрые дела.
Астариону я дала выпить кровь и отдала книгу. И как же я удивилась, когда на гулянке тифлингов, с Астарионом у меня мало того что было максимальное одобрение, так ещё он сразу позвал под ёлки. Восклицательный знак горел только над ним. Вариант - пошли? Пойдем! Сработал сразу, не надо было даже вопросов задавать. Я думаю, хорошо. Предлагают - бери)) Хотя, я рассчитывала на Гейла, но из-за того, что с ним у меня одобрение набралось максимально быстро диалоги оказались заблокированы.

Doesn't look like it at all. With Lestat from the film, and it was precisely about the film "Interview with the Vampire" in 1994, there is nothing in common, except that both vampires are. I dare to assume that you speak Russian, and if so, I will leave the text in the original, so my thoughts will be clearer.
You don't have to play as evil to get Astarion's approval. Absolutely.
This is my first time playing as a half-elf male tracker. I saved the tieflings, promised Nettie to drink poison, killed Karga, saved the girl from the druid, killed the goblins, helped the druid Halsin, promised to save the duke, did some good deeds.
I gave Astarion blood to drink and gave the book. And how surprised I was when, at the tiefling party, with Astarion, not only did I have the maximum approval, he also immediately called under the trees. The exclamation mark burned just above him. Option - let's go? Let's go to! It worked right away, there was no need to even ask questions. I think good. They offer - take it)) Although, I was counting on Gale, but due to the fact that I gained approval with him as quickly as possible, the dialogues were blocked.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Current companions/romance options - 09/05/21 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Not even close... You forget the most important thing, Astarion is evil. None of these characters are evil. He has something in common with Lestat, they are both drama queens and so selfish. But Astarion is still better, at least for now. Lestat regretted his actions, worried, burned in the sun and sobbed bloody tears. Astarion? He enjoys it, that's why I love him.

Now that I've brought up "Interview with the Vampire" (oops!) I should probably add that we can't compare Lestat and Astarion - YET. Lestat's story is complete from the books, and Astarion's is not. We have only had a small taste of it. smile
(Also Lestat's author had a big religious epiphany in the middle of writing her books, which probably skewed the character a lot. I don't remember, I stopped reading the series when then religious stuff got too annoying for me.)

Right now, I get the feeling Astarion is most interested in survival, and right now our team is his best opportunity to stay alive and enjoy life/freedom as much as he can, in his own way. If you do play Evil, he will quickly become your most Evil character in the team. But if you play Good, he will still approve as long he sees some of those chaotic, survivalist, fun-loving tendencies in you and how you speak with him.

BUT - his story is far from complete! What is really written on his back? Who will he become after we deal with Cazador? Will he be able to resist his old master? Will he become a full vampire and turn evil in this personal quest - or if we kill Cazador, and will Astarion be able to find closure in this after 200 years of abuse, and figure out where his life goes from there? Will he still be with us until the end of the game, and who will he become?
I really can't wait for more of his story!!!

Also, he does have some humanising moments, they're few and far between (and one is not actually in the game yet) but they do exist...

One is when you speak to the mirror guarding the room with the Necromancy of Thay tome. When the mirror asks "what would you like to see?" one of Astarion's dialogue options is "I'd like to see my real home, the one I haven't seen in hundreds of years". That is really sweet. The way he basks in the morning sun after your night with him is also great to see. Also, there is an unfinished, unreleased scene that you can watch on youtube, where he looks at a mirror and laments what he has lost. He doesn't even remember what colour eyes he had in life. When you offer to "be his mirror" it quickly turns into flirting and teasing about "shallow praise" for his appearance, but it's moments like this that make me think there is some humanity left in him, well-hidden after years of abuse. I do hope we will see more of this side of him.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/05/21 05:35 AM
Originally Posted by Shyshyn4ik
Doesn't look like it at all. With Lestat from the film, and it was precisely about the film "Interview with the Vampire" in 1994, there is nothing in common, except that both vampires are. I dare to assume that you speak Russian, and if so, I will leave the text in the original, so my thoughts will be clearer.
You don't have to play as evil to get Astarion's approval. Absolutely.
This is my first time playing as a half-elf male tracker. I saved the tieflings, promised Nettie to drink poison, killed Karga, saved the girl from the druid, killed the goblins, helped the druid Halsin, promised to save the duke, did some good deeds.
I gave Astarion blood to drink and gave the book. And how surprised I was when, at the tiefling party, with Astarion, not only did I have the maximum approval, he also immediately called under the trees. The exclamation mark burned just above him. Option - let's go? Let's go to! It worked right away, there was no need to even ask questions. I think good. They offer - take it)) Although, I was counting on Gale, but due to the fact that I gained approval with him as quickly as possible, the dialogues were blocked.

I'm talking about books, just so you know, Lestat's story doesn't start with Interview with Vampire, because it's not first book. So Lestat is by nature a selfish whiner who does terrible things and then blames himself for it and grieves. Astarion is selfish, but he doesn't seem to whine.

I have 200 hours in game, Astarion approves like 80% evil choices and another 20% neutral, and he always disapproves or doesn't react on good actions. He is a chaotically evil character, don't expect him to encourage your kindness, sooner or later it will cause conflict.

Did you let Gur live? Because Astarion will definitely want to kill him, and it's an evil act. He hates when you help someone. He hates when you're honest with others. He's only happy to save girl if you kill Kagha, because he's actually happy to kill Kagha, and he probably doesn't care about girl. "Killing is too much, I would cut off her hand," he says about this little girl.

Try to travel only with Astarion and get his opinion on each situation.

And if you talking about the fact that his "romance" scene can be obtained without approval? This is a different point. I'm sure this will be changed, or doesn't matter for his real romance, cuz this scene is more like "just sex". Lae and Astarion are characters who may betray you in the future. Lae for her queen, Astarion for his own gain. So these nights don't mean anything to them, it's "just for fun".


Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Not even close... You forget the most important thing, Astarion is evil. None of these characters are evil. He has something in common with Lestat, they are both drama queens and so selfish. But Astarion is still better, at least for now. Lestat regretted his actions, worried, burned in the sun and sobbed bloody tears. Astarion? He enjoys it, that's why I love him.

Now that I've brought up "Interview with the Vampire" (oops!) I should probably add that we can't compare Lestat and Astarion - YET. Lestat's story is complete from the books, and Astarion's is not. We have only had a small taste of it. smile
(Also Lestat's author had a big religious epiphany in the middle of writing her books, which probably skewed the character a lot. I don't remember, I stopped reading the series when then religious stuff got too annoying for me.)

Right now, I get the feeling Astarion is most interested in survival, and right now our team is his best opportunity to stay alive and enjoy life/freedom as much as he can, in his own way. If you do play Evil, he will quickly become your most Evil character in the team. But if you play Good, he will still approve as long he sees some of those chaotic, survivalist, fun-loving tendencies in you and how you speak with him.

BUT - his story is far from complete! What is really written on his back? Who will he become after we deal with Cazador? Will he be able to resist his old master? Will he become a full vampire and turn evil in this personal quest - or if we kill Cazador, and will Astarion be able to find closure in this after 200 years of abuse, and figure out where his life goes from there? Will he still be with us until the end of the game, and who will he become?
I really can't wait for more of his story!!!

Also, he does have some humanising moments, they're few and far between (and one is not actually in the game yet) but they do exist...

One is when you speak to the mirror guarding the room with the Necromancy of Thay tome. When the mirror asks "what would you like to see?" one of Astarion's dialogue options is "I'd like to see my real home, the one I haven't seen in hundreds of years". That is really sweet. The way he basks in the morning sun after your night with him is also great to see. Also, there is an unfinished, unreleased scene that you can watch on youtube, where he looks at a mirror and laments what he has lost. He doesn't even remember what colour eyes he had in life. When you offer to "be his mirror" it quickly turns into flirting and teasing about "shallow praise" for his appearance, but it's moments like this that make me think there is some humanity left in him, well-hidden after years of abuse. I do hope we will see more of this side of him.

Of course, we can only judge by the first act, so I said "for now", I do not know what will happen at the end. I do not know what makes you think that Astarion approves of good deeds. He doesn't approve saving Tieflings, he approves their betrayal, if you saving them he's just doesn't react. He tells you directly at the party "I'm sick of it".

About mirror scenes it's "selfishness" to me. Astarion in mirror scene approves when you praise him. As for "home" scene, he definitely wants to reclaim his lost memories, as well as his freedom. He only cares about himself. It's not something that gives you a hint that this character has any kind intentions.

Astarion is already evil, and he was evil before turning into a vampire, he used his power for evil when he was a judge. Of course, he can have redemption arch... But it will be strange for me. When you don't play according to character's principles, they leave you, like Wyll, when you don't save Tieflings, or like Shadow, who refuses romance for the same reason.

So why Astarion special? If you play against him, sooner or later he has to leave, because he is "sick of it". well I want it...

I remember when Swen played demo version of the game for first time and he chose Astarion as original character, and he said "I do what Astarion would do as a character", and he betrayed Tieflings.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/05/21 07:59 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I have 200 hours in game, Astarion approves like 80% evil choices and another 20% neutral, and he always disapproves or doesn't react on good actions. He is a chaotically evil character, don't expect him to encourage your kindness, sooner or later it will cause conflict.

Oh but that is one of the reasons I can't wait to see where the story goes. smile

I might be a glutton for punishment/heartbreak, because I'm currently re-playing Dragon Age Inquisition (I never originally finished the game when it came out!) and romancing Solas. I KNOW my heart is going to get broken. I want to know HOW. It makes for a good story. smile


Originally Posted by Nyloth
and he probably doesn't care about girl. "Killing is too much, I would cut off her hand," he says about this little girl.

I did not get this line. :O
Still, cruelty was a fact of life in the Middle Ages, probably not out of place in this fantasy setting. Not out of character for him either. Our actual real life human history has seen far worse. Is it disturbing, YES. Does it fit the character, given his background - probably also yes.


Originally Posted by Nyloth
And if you talking about the fact that his "romance" scene can be obtained without approval? This is a different point. I'm sure this will be changed, or doesn't matter for his real romance, cuz this scene is more like "just sex". Lae and Astarion are characters who may betray you in the future. Lae for her queen, Astarion for his own gain. So these nights don't mean anything to them, it's "just for fun".

Eh - vampires have always been sexual beings in books and movies, and there's nothing wrong with sex for fun, it makes sense for his character.
Wishful thinking on my end - I am hoping this is only the beginning of the romance. After all, we have a lot more game story ahead of us. One night stand can't be the end of it - can it? Especially because his responses to the player character are the only ones that change afterwards. "Hello, lover."

Of course, if he betrays us later, it will only make the heartbreak worse. (Refer to "glutton for punishment" and romancing Solas in DA:I above. I KNOW what I'm in for, story-wise. I still want to experience it anyway. laugh If the ending isn't happily-ever-after, that's fine, it still means it's a good story! You don't expect happily-ever-after with vampires anyway!)


Originally Posted by Nyloth
Of course, we can only judge by the first act, so I said "for now", I do not know what will happen at the end. I do not know what makes you think that Astarion approves of good deeds. He doesn't approve saving Tieflings, he approves their betrayal, if you saving them he's just doesn't react.

He doesn't approve, but he also doesn't mind what we do (so far) as long as he continues to survive and find pleasure in life.

Originally Posted by Nyloth
About mirror scenes it's "selfishness" to me. Astarion in mirror scene approves when you praise him.

See, I read that scene differently... I feel as though in that scene, the player character has walked in on a moment where he has let his guard down and shown an emotion. "Another thing I've lost." He quickly regains composure and goes on to being his snarky, flirty self. I read it as a defense mechanism, a well-rehearsed wall going up. Anyway, we don't yet know where this scene fits in, or whether it will be in the game, but I hope it will.

Originally Posted by Nyloth
Astarion is already evil, and he was evil before turning into a vampire, he used his power for evil when he was a judge. Of course, he can have redemption arch... But it will be strange for me.

This is exactly why I DO hope there will be a redemption story arc for him. smile Does who he was in life, still define him? Will he be able to move past the abuse he has suffered - or will the spawn become more like the master? Will our player character's choices have an influence?

Anyway, I find it interesting that we both love Astarion for different reasons! The end result is the same - he has a legion of adoring fans, and I'm sure he would be pleased. haha
Posted By: vometia Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/05/21 08:49 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
...he has a legion of adoring fans

By Azura! oops
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/05/21 10:54 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
He doesn't approve, but he also doesn't mind what we do (so far) as long as he continues to survive and find pleasure in life.
His pleasure in life comes often at the expense of others, though. If you play the good path and won't let Astarion drink from Tav (which seems to be a large approval boost) & don't allow him to drink from other intelligent beings, you can end up with low approval. I never got him to leave the party, though maybe it is because the writers are setting him up for betrayal? On the other hand letting Astarion drink blood, while making him happy, feels like a "trap" choice for a good aligned character. It allows him to engage in his monstrous nature for the first time, something he couldn't before, ironically due to Cazador's orders. So it is a step away from redemption.
Posted By: middle tab Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/05/21 11:18 AM
I have 200 hours in game, Astarion approves like 80% evil choices and another 20% neutral, and he always disapproves or doesn't react on good actions. He is a chaotically evil character, don't expect him to encourage your kindness, sooner or later it will cause conflict.
(
sorry, I don’t know how to make a "quote" here)
in my perception Astarion also approves of black humor. doing good deeds, I manage to raise my relationship with him to a high and exceptional.
yes a lot comes from his personal scenes. but I do not always allow him to bite his tab. maybe it’s selfishness, but who among us doesn’t like to be treated well. then we are all Astarion
In general, Astarion gives me conflicting feelings, on the one hand, it is very annoying. especially now in the game for a male bearded dwarf sorcerer. on the other hand, I feel sorry for him. and this is a very well made character. in general, if he ultimately betrays our tab. it will not be so offensive. at least expected.
but if he ends up as one vampire from bg2 ee, I'll be upset.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/05/21 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by ash elemental
On the other hand letting Astarion drink blood, while making him happy, feels like a "trap" choice for a good aligned character. It allows him to engage in his monstrous nature for the first time, something he couldn't before, ironically due to Cazador's orders. So it is a step away from redemption.

I usually play Neutral/Good, and usually support the companions in pursuing their own personal interests rather than blindly forcing them to follow my authority.
I'm not sure about that being a step away from redemption... I see it as a step towards him reclaiming his power as a free vampire ("after all, you know what I am now, I can fight with all my weapons - teeth included"). He IS a vampire, has been for 200 years, this can't be changed. But whether he becomes a true monster by his actions in the rest of the story, and what he does with that power - that remains to be seen. Is betrayal likely? Oh probably very likely during his personal quest. Do I have a hope of redeeming him somehow? Certainly I hope the option will be there. smile

Again the fact that we all see him differently, and not just in black & white, proves how well-written AND well-acted he is as a character. smile
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/05/21 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
I see it as a step towards him reclaiming his power as a free vampire ("after all, you know what I am now, I can fight with all my weapons - teeth included"). He IS a vampire, has been for 200 years, this can't be changed. But whether he becomes a true monster by his actions in the rest of the story, and what he does with that power - that remains to be seen.
In this setting vampires are evil monsters, or at least they were in BG2 (though I don't play pnp, so I don't know how vampirism is handled now). It was similar how dragons were color-coded; for example a red dragon would be evil, as this was their nature. When Astarion chooses to reclaim his power, that is power granted by being a monster, and he chooses to do so by trying to drink blood in secret. He only considers asking for consent after he was caught. Whether Astarion cannot do anything about his vampiric nature, that is unclear. In BG2 there was a quest about reversing vampirism, so it was possible in this setting according to the old rules.

Though I think they will put in a redemption path, because the writers will have to accomodate a player who chooses to play as an evil origin character and yet makes consistently good choices.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/05/21 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by middle tab
I have 200 hours in game, Astarion approves like 80% evil choices and another 20% neutral, and he always disapproves or doesn't react on good actions. He is a chaotically evil character, don't expect him to encourage your kindness, sooner or later it will cause conflict.
(
sorry, I don’t know how to make a "quote" here)
in my perception Astarion also approves of black humor. doing good deeds, I manage to raise my relationship with him to a high and exceptional.
yes a lot comes from his personal scenes. but I do not always allow him to bite his tab. maybe it’s selfishness, but who among us doesn’t like to be treated well. then we are all Astarion
In general, Astarion gives me conflicting feelings, on the one hand, it is very annoying. especially now in the game for a male bearded dwarf sorcerer. on the other hand, I feel sorry for him. and this is a very well made character. in general, if he ultimately betrays our tab. it will not be so offensive. at least expected.
but if he ends up as one vampire from bg2 ee, I'll be upset.

It's fine c: To be honest, I do not know which ones good choices you talking about. It would be easier for me to understand if you gave an example. In my experience, it's only when you killing paladins to save tiefling. I don't know how much of a good choice this is, hmm.
Posted By: middle tab Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/05/21 03:11 PM
I mean, by completing the quests of the druids and tieflings and bringing good to all of them. I somehow get his approval in one way or another smile in general, sometimes it seems to me that Astarion is crazy. perhaps he was driven mad by Casador. possibly influenced by his vampire essence. but some of his actions and dialogues suggest these thoughts frown
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/05/21 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by middle tab
I mean, by completing the quests of the druids and tieflings and bringing good to all of them. I somehow get his approval in one way or another smile in general, sometimes it seems to me that Astarion is crazy. perhaps he was driven mad by Casador. possibly influenced by his vampire essence. but some of his actions and dialogues suggest these thoughts frown

Well... He doesn't really approve what you're doing. He just ignores it. x) It doesn't make him angry, but it doesn't make him happy too.

I'm also confused by "original" stories, I'm afraid choices will look ridiculous on some characters. For example, in theory, playing like Wyll you can betray grove, but this is ridiculous... As a character, he would never do anything like that.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 10/05/21 11:40 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I'm also confused by "original" stories, I'm afraid choices will look ridiculous on some characters. For example, in theory, playing like Wyll you can betray grove, but this is ridiculous... As a character, he would never do anything like that.
Reported that somewhere around Patch 2 ...

Even now you are totally able to save Lae'zel when talking with those Tieflings as Shadowheart, and you dont even get disaproovement. laugh
You cant invite to party anymore tho, but still ...

I certainly hope those dialogue options will be either completely deleted for Origin characters (unlikely) or clearly marked with something like:
[THIS IS COMPELTELY AGAINST THIS CHARACTER AND IT WILL COPLETELY RUIN THE STORY WE WANTED TO TELL HERE ... but its your choice, enjoy.]
Posted By: Sozz Re: Current companions/romance options - 11/05/21 12:01 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I'm also confused by "original" stories, I'm afraid choices will look ridiculous on some characters. For example, in theory, playing like Wyll you can betray grove, but this is ridiculous... As a character, he would never do anything like that.
Reported that somewhere around Patch 2 ...

Even now you are totally able to save Lae'zel when talking with those Tieflings as Shadowheart, and you dont even get disaproovement. laugh
You cant invite to party anymore tho, but still ...

I certainly hope those dialogue options will be either completely deleted for Origin characters (unlikely) or clearly marked with something like:
[THIS IS COMPELTELY AGAINST THIS CHARACTER AND IT WILL COPLETELY RUIN THE STORY WE WANTED TO TELL HERE ... but its your choice, enjoy.]
I remember that because of his eye, Wyl can't make a deal with the Hag, so some story choices are locked off to certain characters
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Current companions/romance options - 11/05/21 12:10 AM
Honestly, I can see ways it could work but only if handled carefully. For example, with Wyll, he could betray the grove if he decided the best way to get to Mizora is buddy up with the enemy, as much as he hates their guts and wants them gone off the face of the earth. And tbh, Wyll isn't exactly the most lawful good guy so you could roleplay him as losing his morals or prioritizing getting out of his pact above the lives of others.

It however would be easier to block an origin character from making certain decisions to keep them consistent.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Current companions/romance options - 11/05/21 03:43 AM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Honestly, I can see ways it could work but only if handled carefully. For example, with Wyll, he could betray the grove if he decided the best way to get to Mizora is buddy up with the enemy, as much as he hates their guts and wants them gone off the face of the earth. And tbh, Wyll isn't exactly the most lawful good guy so you could roleplay him as losing his morals or prioritizing getting out of his pact above the lives of others.

It however would be easier to block an origin character from making certain decisions to keep them consistent.
not to mention the shadow druid angle
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Current companions/romance options - 11/05/21 03:54 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I'm also confused by "original" stories, I'm afraid choices will look ridiculous on some characters. For example, in theory, playing like Wyll you can betray grove, but this is ridiculous... As a character, he would never do anything like that.
Reported that somewhere around Patch 2 ...

Even now you are totally able to save Lae'zel when talking with those Tieflings as Shadowheart, and you dont even get disaproovement. laugh
You cant invite to party anymore tho, but still ...

I certainly hope those dialogue options will be either completely deleted for Origin characters (unlikely) or clearly marked with something like:
[THIS IS COMPELTELY AGAINST THIS CHARACTER AND IT WILL COPLETELY RUIN THE STORY WE WANTED TO TELL HERE ... but its your choice, enjoy.]

I'd like to believe that too, but I've played DOS2 and I know they probably won't remove these dialogues, so I'll never consider "original" stories as canon for the characters ' personalities..
Posted By: Passerby Re: Current companions/romance options - 20/05/21 03:22 PM
Based on a datamined picture of Karlach, Shadowheart is going to remain the best-looking female companion

reddit post of Karlach's datamined picture

And I'll be killing Karlach with pleasure.
Posted By: Leucrotta Re: Current companions/romance options - 20/05/21 03:47 PM
Since Karlach looks like she is getting that new 'buff' character model that's been kicking around in the files for a while, I would think that she'll be another strength-based bruiser, which makes me wonder if Lae'zel will be made into a dex fighter to avoid redundancy-since we know
Minsc
is coming and they are definately str-based, plus she does use a scimitar in her art after all, which is a finesse weapon.

I like her new look-very striking, and looks much more fitting for the 'footsoldier of the Blood Wars' backstory she has going on, and it's good that we'll have a buff companion of both genders for folks who like that sort of thing. I'm going to assume that they are going to change her hairstyle from what she has in-game as well, since that's a generic hairstyle and afaik none of the companions so far use the generic hairstyles. Looks like she's almost done though, I wonder if she'll be ready as a companion by the next big patch.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 20/05/21 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by Passerby
Based on a datamined picture of Karlach, Shadowheart is going to remain the best-looking female companion.
I dunno ...
I dont like Shadowheart default look. :-/

But, she certainly have potential ...
As i watched last Chubblot's datamining video, i really liked her look ... and all that was changed was hair, and some darker makeup. O_o

So ... yeah, she stay best-looking female companion ... but only since she is the only female-looking companion so far. :P
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Current companions/romance options - 20/05/21 11:01 PM
I still find it hilarious that the men-folk keep complaining about lack of "attractive" female companions, meanwhile we girls have 3 attractive male companions to admire. THIS NEVER HAPPENS IN GAMES, people! Do you have ANY IDEA how awesome this is?! smile

Also, I really like Karlach's new model. In general, all the female characters are strong in their own way.

It's so refreshing to have a game that is not designed purely for the male gaze.
Posted By: Passerby Re: Current companions/romance options - 20/05/21 11:08 PM
Oh ... "male gaze" again. While it's always okay to have shirtless brawny men for the women-folk to indulge in their female gaze.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Current companions/romance options - 20/05/21 11:10 PM
I mean Attractiveness is in the eye(s) of the Beholder, I am sure there are many straight guys out there who would enjoy a tall buff tiefling lady, just like how many many people were all about that tall vampire lady from RE8. Attractiveness is personal taste and I posit there are as many who find Shadowheart unattractive as there are who find her attractive. And there are likely many who will like Karlach, as there are many who won't, both having their opinions based on the same features. (Though Laezel probably has less defenders on that front.)
Then again I don't really have horse in that race cause I am content with Astarion and Gale for my romances, unless of course we get someone really out there...
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Current companions/romance options - 20/05/21 11:18 PM
Originally Posted by Passerby
Oh ... "male gaze" again. While it's always okay to have shirtless brawny men for the women-folk to indulge in their female gaze.

Hah - I personally don't find brawny men attractive at all. I'll leave Halsin for others to drool over - I'd take Astarion any day! :P
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 20/05/21 11:37 PM
I just hope this still isnt final model ...
Meaning i hope Karlach will not remain bald. laugh Even tho that thing she have on head right now, isnt much better in my taste, it kinda looks like some small animal, like ferret, that is just sleeping there. laugh
What will probably remain is that broken horn. frown I get it, i understand it ... but i just hate it ... i know some sort of symmetry is natural, but the more asymmetric models are the less i like them ... maybe im just weird in this. laugh
Love that scars tho! And kinda like her face. :P

Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Do you have ANY IDEA how awesome this is?! smile
Yes.
Not at all, for us. laugh
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Current companions/romance options - 20/05/21 11:38 PM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
It's so refreshing to have a game that is not designed purely for the male gaze.

Larian seems to do a decent - not 100% perfect, but whatever - job of avoiding that particular pitfall. Thanks for equal opportunity depravity, devs! up grin
Posted By: Icelyn Re: Current companions/romance options - 20/05/21 11:43 PM
Team Halsin!!!

[Linked Image from i.redd.it]
Posted By: timebean Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 02:25 AM
I will likely bang em all.

I am RPg’ing this game, and want to see where all roads lead for my multiple playthroughs. I imagine I can come up with plenty of unique custom chars, all with different tastes to tickle the tadpole

Besides…it’s all about the voice and dialogue for me. Halsin sounds like a grandpa imho, so I don’t get the drooling for him. Minthara has a mean face with a gouged-in frown line, so that will also remain a mystery. All the other chars seem great to me for pixel whomping.

I mean, lets face it. My chars have banged nearly every pixelated booty in multiple universes at this point. If I could bang Garrus in Mass Effect…and could get past the bird cloaca mashing imagery…*shivers*…I am sure I can overcome Karloch’s single horn.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 02:52 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
I still find it hilarious that the men-folk keep complaining about lack of "attractive" female companions, meanwhile we girls have 3 attractive male companions to admire. THIS NEVER HAPPENS IN GAMES, people! Do you have ANY IDEA how awesome this is?! smile

Also, I really like Karlach's new model. In general, all the female characters are strong in their own way.

It's so refreshing to have a game that is not designed purely for the male gaze.


+1

I also appreciate the fact that this game is designed for both male and female gazes - which is super rare. Watching Felicia Day play this she got very excited about being able to design the person who attracts her and she gushed over the attention that went into the hairstyles.

There is also the fact that armor on women looks like proper armor and not a metal or leather bikini. BG3 breaks a lot of standard tropes.
Posted By: Passerby Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 05:45 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
+1

I also appreciate the fact that this game is designed for both male and female gazes - which is super rare. Watching Felicia Day play this she got very excited about being able to design the person who attracts her and she gushed over the attention that went into the hairstyles.

There is also the fact that armor on women looks like proper armor and not a metal or leather bikini. BG3 breaks a lot of standard tropes.

Is the game really designed for both male and female gazes, though, or is it just for female gaze? There's only one female companion that possibly qualifies as male gaze content, and that's Shadowheart. For female gaze content, there're Astarion, Gale and Wyll. Some are even clamouring for Halsin to be added to their list.

Looking ahead, Karlach is not male gaze material, and neither is the werewolf halfing, based on datamined information.

So it's not equal, and a there's a clear bias.
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 06:02 AM
There is that one Female Bard NPC that some wanted to be a companion, and Minthara seems to be what some people like, but they are in the Halsin situation of not being a companion.
Posted By: EvilVik Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 06:44 AM
You are all so straight in your view of gazing material grin
Posted By: Dez Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 06:54 AM
Originally Posted by Passerby
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
+1

I also appreciate the fact that this game is designed for both male and female gazes - which is super rare. Watching Felicia Day play this she got very excited about being able to design the person who attracts her and she gushed over the attention that went into the hairstyles.

There is also the fact that armor on women looks like proper armor and not a metal or leather bikini. BG3 breaks a lot of standard tropes.

Is the game really designed for both male and female gazes, though, or is it just for female gaze? There's only one female companion that possibly qualifies as male gaze content, and that's Shadowheart. For female gaze content, there're Astarion, Gale and Wyll. Some are even clamouring for Halsin to be added to their list.

Looking ahead, Karlach is not male gaze material, and neither is the werewolf halfing, based on datamined information.

So it's not equal, and a there's a clear bias.

I am 100% for games providing different options and daring to use different character designs - but I am just as much for having the vanilla cookie cutter options for those who likes that. Variety, folks! Both in character design and personality!

So - that said, I am gonna side with Passerby on this one.

Having 3 good looking guys (by meta standard) that are all available for pretty much any alignment (save for Wyll refusing to side with goblins), while having Minthara (evil only) and Shadowheart (any alignment) as "meta" beauties for those who want female romances is not being equal or fair - by definition...And it is so weird to see people argue that it is great that ladies get eye candy but at the same time argue that men shouldn't be "drooling over stereotypes"... :[ That is not how equality works. Ex. I don't want male characters to wear bikini armor just because some games do that for female characters. But at the same time, I won't say no to having the OPTION available for male and female characters.

Regardless of how one look at things. There is no way I'd be convinced that there are as many male people finding Lae attractive as Shadowheart unless you provide me with solid proof saying otherwise. Not saying SH is a solid 10/10 (she most certainly is not my cup of tea) - but I'll agree with many earlier posts... She is quite the only option for those who want a more human-looking lady, and that is not fair. (and I do not buy the "eyes of the beholder"-thing in this particular situation, there are clear scientific markers of beauty and whilst of course everybody has their personal taste and all, there definitely are some global beauty markers - this has been easily proven by data collected from dating apps for those interested, for both men and women.)

AAAANYWAY, staying on topic, before despairing I'd like to remind the community of that we're getting more companions that are good alignment later on. I'll hope that the dissatisfied lads (and ladies) here gets to see a female companion more to their liking when those arrive. I mean, I would really see why Larian would withhold a more standard female cookie cutter option (like Lohse <3 ) from EA as they want to see the player data from romance with SH, Lae and Minth - so do not despair just yet. laugh
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 07:02 AM
There is a part of the character creator where you create an ideal companion of your choosing (who attracts you?). This was not about the companions. Those are your co-workers, why would you want to date them? :P
Posted By: Passerby Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 07:24 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
There is a part of the character creator where you create an ideal companion of your choosing (who attracts you?). This was not about the companions. Those are your co-workers, why would you want to date them? :P

No, you're moving the goalposts. You were replying to someone who was cackling over the fact that women players have 3 attractive male companions to admire while male players have less, and you replied with a "+1", signifying your agreement. So you agreed with her that it was "hilarious" that women had 3 good-looking male companions while men have only 1 good-looking female companion. This has never been about the character creator.

And look at the title of the thread. It's companions and romance, not character creator. And your imaginary friend is only in your head, and does not exist as a real companion.

And whether you should be sleeping with your co-workers is a different discussion, which is another attempt at shifting the goalposts.
Posted By: Dez Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 07:31 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
There is a part of the character creator where you create an ideal companion of your choosing (who attracts you?). This was not about the companions. Those are your co-workers, why would you want to date them? :P

I mean, now you're reaching for straws. O.o Do I really have to debate as to why romance should be included in a *RP* game? o.O

1) I see absolutely no reason why one would apply a the workforce-relationship-taboo for fantasy adventurers - that's just... Illogical to me. For a long list of reasons. Sure, my character obviously did not get kidnapped with the plans on playing Tinder - but if a character shows up during the ride that suits her interest, then I really see no legitimate non-RP reason that the option of romancing shouldn't be there. All people RP as different characters which might have their own reasons to romance or not romance certain NPC options.

2) These are not your co-workers, and this is not real life. Nor are these not the people that you assigned up for guard duty with (if we'd use a more accurate translation for irl co-workers into a fantasy RP games).

These are people you are temporary stuck with by chance (or so I hope), and you'll adventure with together for a good while. Obviously there'll be feelings involved. Friendship, companionship, anger, disagreements, grief - in a good CRPG you'll find anything that you could have found in a DnD player session and perhaps even more. Yet somehow you argue that this it not include romance for the characters?

Sometimes, even irl, you meet people by chance that you get a long with. It can turn out to be a great friendship, or perhaps, there can be romance. In the forms of one night stands, physical attraction, or eternal partnership. Who knows?

If you want to rule out romance based on the co-worker-thing, then you do you. That norm certainly does not apply to everyone - neither IRL nor IC.

3) Ah yes, of course we don't need romance runs when we get to design our perfect SO (that I absolutely dread the attire of). All it takes is for you to completely succumb to the tiny worm with teeth hiding underneath your eye!

I mean, if there had been an option for ACTUALLY creating co-adventurers (without bugging the game) and have romances available between two PCs, then I'd agree (sorta? I still wouldn't rule out NPCs for those who want to run one PC or simply want their multiple PCs to be other things than lovers). But we're literally just talking about what appears to be a mind bender trick. :]
Posted By: Passerby Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 07:35 AM
Originally Posted by Dez
AAAANYWAY, staying on topic, before despairing I'd like to remind the community of that we're getting more companions that are good alignment later on. I'll hope that the dissatisfied lads (and ladies) here gets to see a female companion more to their liking when that those arrive. I mean, I would really see why Larian would withhold a more standard female cookie cutter option (like Lohse <3 ) from EA as they want to see the player data from romance with SH, Lae and Minth - so do not despair just yet. laugh

Thanks! Unfortunately, we aren't having as many companions as BG1 or 2. Karlach, the werewolf halfing, Minsc and possibly 1 or 2 more are all we can look forward to seeing in the future. So, if the current trajectory and bias holds, Shadowheart will remain the sole "male gaze" content.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 07:54 AM
*Facepalm*

I don't think any of the companions are particularly physically attractive. Male or female. I think when we talk about male and female gaze we are talking about there is an equal opportunity to explore what you find attractive - which >I< think is valid. However if you guys feel there is nothing that attracts your gaze in this game then that is of course valid as well. I think about 2-3 decades of only catering to the male gaze its nice to have a game that goes in a different direction.

I was joking about the "dating your co-workers thing" I am so so so sad that you guys took it seriously. I think I died a little inside at the wall of words person that took that seriously. frown
Posted By: Dez Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 08:04 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
*Facepalm*

Hmm, I get the feeling that I missed some sarcasm or otherwise misunderstood your statement then.

My apologizes, in case I failed my Insight roll. :] Difficult to read over text. :']
Posted By: Passerby Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 08:11 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
*Facepalm*

I was joking about the "dating your co-workers thing" I am so so so sad that you guys took it seriously. I think I died a little inside at the wall of words person that took that seriously. frown

No, you don't get to be flippant and blame Dez and me for your poor communication skills. Be clear next time, and not end an irrelevant or insulting statement with a smiley as if that will smooth things over, or convey your meaning. It's your fault if you aren't being clear, not the reader, doubly so when attempting humour that falls flat.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 08:21 AM
I don't care much about how the companions look, but I care way more about how they're written. And the more time I spend in Pathfinder WotR beta, the more I realize that the BG3 companions have a long road to go before they are even comparable in terms of an overall package. The WotR companions feel like an actual party of friends and yet still manage to be incredibly diverse in motivations. Daeran's personal quest in chapter 2 really emphasizes this - think the camp party scene, except way better executed because the companions and characters are actually interacting with each other, instead of only having things to say to the player. (Though it also really helps that their backgrounds are actually closely tied to the actual setting and plot itself - even when they're not in the main adventuring party, they are known to be doing their own things, instead of merely standing around waiting for the player character to return.)

The BG3 companions in comparison all feel like they're written in their own separate world, to an almost incredibly cynical degree. The BG3 companions are perhaps more appealing than most other cRPG companions on an individual basis, but at the moment, it really feels like there's zero chemistry between them as an actual party at all. I guess in the context of BG3's story, it makes sense - but any progress I made towards actually befriending them kind of felt very fake and gamey in the long term.

That said, now that I think about it, the BG3 companions never really say anything (as in, having voiced lines) when you select them to move or act in combat, while the companions of most other cRPGs will. It doesn't sound like a major thing, but it's a small detail that goes a long way towards subtly fleshing out their personalities. For example, Ember from WotR has exploration dialogue that can range from cute innocent elf, to saying some profound things on the true nature of the world without herself realizing how much she's actually making sense. (The Pathfinder games are already known to go a step beyond most cRPGs in this category, by even having party banter during long rest sequences too.)

BG3 may already be planning to rectify this, but I'm not that confident, as I'm fairly sure the DOS2 companions never actually said anything while fighting (besides shared generic lines like 'I shall yield to none!') or during general exploration either. The other part is that the devs are heavily hinting that we're going to be facing another DOS2 type situation where we end up losing everyone not in our active party at the end of Act 1 - and so the logic might be, why even invest in more inter-party dialogue if you're going to lose all but 3 of them fairly early in the game?
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 08:33 AM
Originally Posted by EvilVik
You are all so straight in your view of gazing material grin
Not me, I'm a girl and I like girls. But in games, I'll try different romances, that have nothing to do with preference, for role-playing purpose.

And I look forward to Karlach, I already love her voice and personality and I really don't care, how she looks.

And, although I'm not the audience target for them, I'm not really that impressed with the male companions. One is an evil asshole and the brooding vampire stereotype, that sadly became so common, since shows/books like Twilight, Vampire Diaries and True Blood became popular. The other two have a demon and a goddess as exes and they are clearly not over them... so not really interesting in my book.

Maybe that is one of the reasons, some girls want to see a Halsin romance, he seems to be a bit more down to earth (of course I know, many like his looks too)

I wouldn't mind to get Alfira as a (romanceable) companion though. I really like her.

And generally I agree with Passerby, that probably the majority of players want to be attracted to a potential romance, so maybe Larian should see, that there are a bit more 'conventional' attractive characters around.

I know, that I'm the minority insofar, that I don't do the romances, because I'm attracted to the characters (although I do find SH attractive), but solely for role-playing.
For example, my favorite romance in Dragon Age Inquisition was Iron Bull, despite him being the wrong sex, a Qunari (not a fan) and a warrior (I like roguetypes better). But he was so well written and his romance was indeed the best of them.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 10:06 AM
Oh my ... this will be long one. :-/
Originally Posted by Passerby
Looking ahead, Karlach is not male gaze material, and neither is the werewolf halfing, based on datamined information.
If we are talking about datamined material ...
There is also some female-druid. wink

Also keep in mind that, exclude Halsin, everyone you just mention are Origin characters ...
That dont mean at all that they will be the only possible companions, especialy since after Act1 we have to "commit" as Larian say. Wich probably will mean that we let most of Origin go (im guesing everyone, except one we will follow futher) ... and i kinda doubt that game will change from 4person party to 2person party. wink
Also there are those mercenaries that was allready confrimmed.
And finaly, even tho im not quite sure if that was only mupltiple repeated wish, or confimation from larian ... there is some talking about possibility to adjust looks of Origin characters, to suit our taste. :P

Anyway, what im trying to say is: There is potential to have enough material to gaze for everyone. wink

Originally Posted by Dez
There is no way I'd be convinced that there are as many male people finding Lae attractive as Shadowheart unless you provide me with solid proof saying otherwise.
Well ... this isnt easy, to be honest. laugh
Shadow is indeed prettier (who would guess right? :D) but on the other hand, from her personaly i feel so incredibly strong urge to slap her pretty face, so its no use for her ... :-/

And to be completely honest ... and maybe i will look like a little weirdo now ...
As i said abowe, if we would be able to adjust looks of our Origin companions (i mean, it should not matter what face, hairstyle or what make-up they have ritght? :P ) ... there is at least one (maybe two) Female Githyanki face i find quite honestly kinda pretty. :P So Lae'zel potentialy could even win this contest for me. laugh

Also, a little offtopic ...
Im not satisfied with faces in this game in general ... like, when you look at Goblins, even there some of them are look better than our Tav options, especialy when you create a male. :-/

Originally Posted by Passerby
And look at the title of the thread. It's companions and romance, not character creator. And your imaginary friend is only in your head, and does not exist as a real companion.
We dont know that yet ...
Its totally possible that Larian will use this "model" in the future somehow.

And after all, what is wrong in being attracted in your dream person? :P
We are talking here about attraction between imaginary people anyway. laugh So i would count this one with clear heart and mind ... problem is its +1 for everyone, since its suppose to be "perfect oposite" ... so it dont move the scales a bit to either side. laugh

Originally Posted by Dez
I mean, if there had been an option for ACTUALLY creating co-adventurers (without bugging the game) and have romances available between two PCs, then I'd agree (sorta? I still wouldn't rule out NPCs for those who want to run one PC or simply want their multiple PCs to be other things than lovers). But we're literally just talking about what appears to be a mind bender trick. :]
I believe it was confrimmed by Larian somewhere in the past that we will be able to create whole party of adventurers since the beginning.
But maybe im wrong. frown

Anyway, the idea of romance between PC sounds interesting, but unprobable ... after all, PC cant even talk to each other except specific situations. :-/

Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
The WotR companions feel like an actual party of friends and yet still manage to be incredibly diverse in motivations.
But in Baldur's Gate we are not suppose to be "actual party of friends" ... we are suppose to be "actual party of random people wich stick together, since they dont see much other choice". laugh

Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
companions and characters are actually interacting with each other, instead of only having things to say to the player.
This i would certainly welcome in BG-3 ...
But i believe we are aiming there ... after all, in previous Patches companions were just standing there, gazing to space, waiting like robots ... now they are doing something (reading books, fighting with githyanki box, etc.) ... so, i dare to hope for some action in this case. smile

Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
That said, now that I think about it, the BG3 companions never really say anything (as in, having voiced lines) when you select them to move or act in combat, while the companions of most other cRPGs will. It doesn't sound like a major thing, but it's a small detail that goes a long way towards subtly fleshing out their personalities. For example, Ember from WotR has exploration dialogue that can range from cute innocent elf, to saying some profound things on the true nature of the world without herself realizing how much she's actually making sense. (The Pathfinder games are already known to go a step beyond most cRPGs in this category, by even having party banter during long rest sequences too.)
Honestly im quite glad they dont ...
- for one its oftern breaking fourth wall ...
- for two it may quite soon be anoying ...
I just recetly reinstalled Dragon Age: Origins ... and i quite fast find every little thing my brain "displaced"(is that corect word for forced forgeting?) and on my list of anoyances, this talking to player with every second comand is cearly on the top. Especialy if you choose Violent voice ... "Can i get you ladder, so you can get off my back!" ... funny sentence, right? Well, not as much if you hear it every 20 freaking seconds!!! -_-
And even better, if your PC decided to have this "incredibly important" monologue to player, when you listen someone else talking ... that creates beautiful cacophony of mess, from wich you get litteraly nothing. -_-

Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
BG3 may already be planning to rectify this, but I'm not that confident, as I'm fairly sure the DOS2 companions never actually said anything while fighting (besides shared generic lines like 'I shall yield to none!') or during general exploration either. The other part is that the devs are heavily hinting that we're going to be facing another DOS2 type situation where we end up losing everyone not in our active party at the end of Act 1 - and so the logic might be, why even invest in more inter-party dialogue if you're going to lose all but 3 of them fairly early in the game?
There are inter-party dialogues while you are exploring ...
I specificly remember Shadowheart asking Lae'zel about punishment for stealing, or killing in their culture. (certainly without any secondary intentions, *wink* *wink*)

Originally Posted by fylimar
Not me, I'm a girl and I like girls. But in games, I'll try different romances, that have nothing to do with preference, for role-playing purpose.
...
Maybe that is one of the reasons, some girls want to see a Halsin romance, he seems to be a bit more down to earth (of course I know, many like his looks too)
I just want to say that im simple Heterosexual Male ...
And even i want Halsin romanceable, since sometimes i simply create female character, and i dont want all of my female-characters to become lesbians, just bcs im not into guys. laugh

Originally Posted by fylimar
And, although I'm not the audience target for them, I'm not really that impressed with the male companions. One is an evil asshole and the brooding vampire stereotype, that sadly became so common, since shows/books like Twilight, Vampire Diaries and True Blood became popular. The other two have a demon and a goddess as exes and they are clearly not over them... so not really interesting in my book.
...
And that is exactly the second reason ...
Even tho someone can find those male companions visualy atractive, they (for simmilar reason as Shadowheart) are completely unusable for me. laugh
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 10:37 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Honestly im quite glad they dont ...
- for one its oftern breaking fourth wall ...
- for two it may quite soon be anoying ...
I just recetly reinstalled Dragon Age: Origins ... and i quite fast find every little thing my brain "displaced"(is that corect word for forced forgeting?) and on my list of anoyances, this talking to player with every second comand is cearly on the top. Especialy if you choose Violent voice ... "Can i get you ladder, so you can get off my back!" ... funny sentence, right? Well, not as much if you hear it every 20 freaking seconds!!! -_-
And even better, if your PC decided to have this "incredibly important" monologue to player, when you listen someone else talking ... that creates beautiful cacophony of mess, from wich you get litteraly nothing. -_-

Hah! You're right, I've forgotten that about DA:O.
Currently still playing DA:Inquisition while waiting for Patch 5 in this game, where the companions don't say anything when you command them to do something. They do however have wonderful banter, which I really, really wish BG3 would have more of - or would just activate more often. The voice lines are in there, they just don't trigger much.

I tried playing the original Baldur's Gate - but the line "I'm on it like ugly on an orc!" gets REALLY OLD, REALLY FAST.


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by fylimar
And, although I'm not the audience target for them, I'm not really that impressed with the male companions. One is an evil asshole and the brooding vampire stereotype, that sadly became so common, since shows/books like Twilight, Vampire Diaries and True Blood became popular. The other two have a demon and a goddess as exes and they are clearly not over them... so not really interesting in my book.
...

And that is exactly the second reason ...
Even tho someone can find those male companions visualy atractive, they (for simmilar reason as Shadowheart) are completely unusable for me.

That is where we go into the subjective territory of personal taste, and it's best left at that, because people can argue personal tastes until the cows come home. smile


I will just add - never model your "dream lover" character in BG3 after your real life partner. I made the mistake of doing that, before I knew what that character was for. So creepy, it was just wrong...
(My husband made his "dream lover" look like me, too, but he avoided using the illithid powers so never got those scenes)
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
If we are talking about datamined material ...
There is also some female-druid. wink

Oooh - really?!? I am intrigued.
Posted By: Dez Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 11:26 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Oh my ... this will be long one. :-/
Originally Posted by Passerby
Looking ahead, Karlach is not male gaze material, and neither is the werewolf halfing, based on datamined information.
If we are talking about datamined material ...
There is also some female-druid. wink

Also keep in mind that, exclude Halsin, everyone you just mention are Origin characters ...
That dont mean at all that they will be the only possible companions, especialy since after Act1 we have to "commit" as Larian say. Wich probably will mean that we let most of Origin go (im guesing everyone, except one we will follow futher) ... and i kinda doubt that game will change from 4person party to 2person party. wink
Also there are those mercenaries that was allready confrimmed.
And finaly, even tho im not quite sure if that was only mupltiple repeated wish, or confimation from larian ... there is some talking about possibility to adjust looks of Origin characters, to suit our taste. :P

Anyway, what im trying to say is: There is potential to have enough material to gaze for everyone. wink

Originally Posted by Dez
There is no way I'd be convinced that there are as many male people finding Lae attractive as Shadowheart unless you provide me with solid proof saying otherwise.
Well ... this isnt easy, to be honest. laugh
Shadow is indeed prettier (who would guess right? :D) but on the other hand, from her personaly i feel so incredibly strong urge to slap her pretty face, so its no use for her ... :-/

And to be completely honest ... and maybe i will look like a little weirdo now ...
As i said abowe, if we would be able to adjust looks of our Origin companions (i mean, it should not matter what face, hairstyle or what make-up they have ritght? :P ) ... there is at least one (maybe two) Female Githyanki face i find quite honestly kinda pretty. :P So Lae'zel potentialy could even win this contest for me. laugh

Also, a little offtopic ...
Im not satisfied with faces in this game in general ... like, when you look at Goblins, even there some of them are look better than our Tav options, especialy when you create a male. :-/

Originally Posted by Passerby
And look at the title of the thread. It's companions and romance, not character creator. And your imaginary friend is only in your head, and does not exist as a real companion.
We dont know that yet ...
Its totally possible that Larian will use this "model" in the future somehow.

And after all, what is wrong in being attracted in your dream person? :P
We are talking here about attraction between imaginary people anyway. laugh So i would count this one with clear heart and mind ... problem is its +1 for everyone, since its suppose to be "perfect oposite" ... so it dont move the scales a bit to either side. laugh

Originally Posted by Dez
I mean, if there had been an option for ACTUALLY creating co-adventurers (without bugging the game) and have romances available between two PCs, then I'd agree (sorta? I still wouldn't rule out NPCs for those who want to run one PC or simply want their multiple PCs to be other things than lovers). But we're literally just talking about what appears to be a mind bender trick. :]
I believe it was confrimmed by Larian somewhere in the past that we will be able to create whole party of adventurers since the beginning.
But maybe im wrong. frown

Anyway, the idea of romance between PC sounds interesting, but unprobable ... after all, PC cant even talk to each other except specific situations. :-/

Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
The WotR companions feel like an actual party of friends and yet still manage to be incredibly diverse in motivations.
But in Baldur's Gate we are not suppose to be "actual party of friends" ... we are suppose to be "actual party of random people wich stick together, since they dont see much other choice". laugh

Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
companions and characters are actually interacting with each other, instead of only having things to say to the player.
This i would certainly welcome in BG-3 ...
But i believe we are aiming there ... after all, in previous Patches companions were just standing there, gazing to space, waiting like robots ... now they are doing something (reading books, fighting with githyanki box, etc.) ... so, i dare to hope for some action in this case. smile

Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
That said, now that I think about it, the BG3 companions never really say anything (as in, having voiced lines) when you select them to move or act in combat, while the companions of most other cRPGs will. It doesn't sound like a major thing, but it's a small detail that goes a long way towards subtly fleshing out their personalities. For example, Ember from WotR has exploration dialogue that can range from cute innocent elf, to saying some profound things on the true nature of the world without herself realizing how much she's actually making sense. (The Pathfinder games are already known to go a step beyond most cRPGs in this category, by even having party banter during long rest sequences too.)
Honestly im quite glad they dont ...
- for one its oftern breaking fourth wall ...
- for two it may quite soon be anoying ...
I just recetly reinstalled Dragon Age: Origins ... and i quite fast find every little thing my brain "displaced"(is that corect word for forced forgeting?) and on my list of anoyances, this talking to player with every second comand is cearly on the top. Especialy if you choose Violent voice ... "Can i get you ladder, so you can get off my back!" ... funny sentence, right? Well, not as much if you hear it every 20 freaking seconds!!! -_-
And even better, if your PC decided to have this "incredibly important" monologue to player, when you listen someone else talking ... that creates beautiful cacophony of mess, from wich you get litteraly nothing. -_-

Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
BG3 may already be planning to rectify this, but I'm not that confident, as I'm fairly sure the DOS2 companions never actually said anything while fighting (besides shared generic lines like 'I shall yield to none!') or during general exploration either. The other part is that the devs are heavily hinting that we're going to be facing another DOS2 type situation where we end up losing everyone not in our active party at the end of Act 1 - and so the logic might be, why even invest in more inter-party dialogue if you're going to lose all but 3 of them fairly early in the game?
There are inter-party dialogues while you are exploring ...
I specificly remember Shadowheart asking Lae'zel about punishment for stealing, or killing in their culture. (certainly without any secondary intentions, *wink* *wink*)

Originally Posted by fylimar
Not me, I'm a girl and I like girls. But in games, I'll try different romances, that have nothing to do with preference, for role-playing purpose.
...
Maybe that is one of the reasons, some girls want to see a Halsin romance, he seems to be a bit more down to earth (of course I know, many like his looks too)
I just want to say that im simple Heterosexual Male ...
And even i want Halsin romanceable, since sometimes i simply create female character, and i dont want all of my female-characters to become lesbians, just bcs im not into guys. laugh

Originally Posted by fylimar
And, although I'm not the audience target for them, I'm not really that impressed with the male companions. One is an evil asshole and the brooding vampire stereotype, that sadly became so common, since shows/books like Twilight, Vampire Diaries and True Blood became popular. The other two have a demon and a goddess as exes and they are clearly not over them... so not really interesting in my book.
...
And that is exactly the second reason ...
Even tho someone can find those male companions visualy atractive, they (for simmilar reason as Shadowheart) are completely unusable for me. laugh

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Also keep in mind that, exclude Halsin, everyone you just mention are Origin characters ...
That dont mean at all that they will be the only possible companions, especialy since after Act1 we have to "commit" as Larian say. Wich probably will mean that we let most of Origin go (im guesing everyone, except one we will follow futher) ... and i kinda doubt that game will change from 4person party to 2person party. wink
Also there are those mercenaries that was allready confrimmed.
And finaly, even tho im not quite sure if that was only mupltiple repeated wish, or confimation from larian ... there is some talking about possibility to adjust looks of Origin characters, to suit our taste. :P

This is very true! And I agree that would make sense considering the magical mirror of DoS2.

...

...

And regarding your comment about SH (looks being alright, but her personality is... difficult) - yes. I agree. I find her rather... Errm... Yeah, not the type my character would drag her feet around for long, to put it mildly. :'] But I was referring to looks only since they were discussing eye candy. laugh If we start speaking personality flaws, then the lads also have a faulty list (like you mentioned!). laugh

And the druid lady that you mentioned does sound intriguing - I hope that she is a better catch that SH for those who do not like her! :] Looking forward to learn of the new companions in general!
Posted By: vometia Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 11:26 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I just recetly reinstalled Dragon Age: Origins ... and i quite fast find every little thing my brain "displaced"(is that corect word for forced forgeting?) and on my list of anoyances, this talking to player with every second comand is cearly on the top. Especialy if you choose Violent voice ... "Can i get you ladder, so you can get off my back!" ... funny sentence, right? Well, not as much if you hear it every 20 freaking seconds!!! -_-
And even better, if your PC decided to have this "incredibly important" monologue to player, when you listen someone else talking ... that creates beautiful cacophony of mess, from wich you get litteraly nothing. -_-

Ugh. I remember playing Oranges back in the day and a friend strongly advised that I didn't pick that voice. I didn't listen and (as usual) quickly regretted doing so; I suppose it was fitting that I'd called my character Ammonia because that voice had much the same effect. That was the point I realised the urgency of learning how to use the DA Toolset so I could change her voice to something less objectionable.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 11:39 AM
Yeah, you can't argue with personal taste. I would like some more original character concepts though. Or just someone more normal and reliable (like Halsin or Alfira for example).
Our current cast is full of drama queens, maybe with the exception of Lae'zel, who is mainly focused on reaching her goal and survive, which I can appreciate. She is really well done for an evil character imo.
I do hope, we will get some interesting non-origin characters tbh.
Don't get me wrong, it's not that I hate the current companions (well, apart from Astarion), I do think, that for example Wylls story is really interesting, with him being a spoiled brat, who got sucked into a catastrophic event, he survived, and became bound to a demon, did grow as a person, but still shows some of his former traits (being totally unsubtle and trying to force his way of doing things on pc). I would play him in a pen & paper campaign, there is a lot going on there. I just hope, Larian will do something with that.
Posted By: Passerby Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
If we are talking about datamined material ...
There is also some female-druid. wink

If you're referring to Jaheira in the datamined files, she isn't a companion.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 11:41 AM
Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I just recetly reinstalled Dragon Age: Origins ... and i quite fast find every little thing my brain "displaced"(is that corect word for forced forgeting?) and on my list of anoyances, this talking to player with every second comand is cearly on the top. Especialy if you choose Violent voice ... "Can i get you ladder, so you can get off my back!" ... funny sentence, right? Well, not as much if you hear it every 20 freaking seconds!!! -_-
And even better, if your PC decided to have this "incredibly important" monologue to player, when you listen someone else talking ... that creates beautiful cacophony of mess, from wich you get litteraly nothing. -_-

Ugh. I remember playing Oranges back in the day and a friend strongly advised that I didn't pick that voice. I didn't listen and (as usual) quickly regretted doing so; I suppose it was fitting that I'd called my character Ammonia because that voice had much the same effect. That was the point I realised the urgency of learning how to use the DA Toolset so I could change her voice to something less objectionable.

I loved the smooth voice, she has some funny lines. But the best ist Dragon Age 2, sarcastic female Hawke. Still my favorite.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by Passerby
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
If we are talking about datamined material ...
There is also some female-druid. wink

If you're referring to Jaheira in the datamined files, she isn't a companion.
Oh wow, Jaheira is still around? I kind of liked her in BG 1&2. She was my slightly annoying big sister.
Posted By: Passerby Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 11:48 AM
Originally Posted by fylimar
And generally I agree with Passerby, that probably the majority of players want to be attracted to a potential romance, so maybe Larian should see, that there are a bit more 'conventional' attractive characters around.

Thanks! The imbalance and Larian's bias is clear too see. Now that I've seen how Karlach looks, it's made the Hunt the Devil quest a lot more straight forward for me. I'm already more sympathetic to the Zariel worshippers than Karlach to begin with. Now, I'm lopping off her head every time.
Posted By: Passerby Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 11:51 AM
Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by Passerby
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
If we are talking about datamined material ...
There is also some female-druid. wink

If you're referring to Jaheira in the datamined files, she isn't a companion.
Oh wow, Jaheira is still around? I kind of liked her in BG 1&2. She was my slightly annoying big sister.

Yeah, according to the datamined files, she has some interactions with Minsc, but not recruitable.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 12:25 PM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by fylimar
And, although I'm not the audience target for them, I'm not really that impressed with the male companions. One is an evil asshole and the brooding vampire stereotype, that sadly became so common, since shows/books like Twilight, Vampire Diaries and True Blood became popular. The other two have a demon and a goddess as exes and they are clearly not over them... so not really interesting in my book.
...
And that is exactly the second reason ...
Even tho someone can find those male companions visualy atractive, they (for simmilar reason as Shadowheart) are completely unusable for me.

That is where we go into the subjective territory of personal taste, and it's best left at that, because people can argue personal tastes until the cows come home. smile
Oh you missunderstand me ...
I dont want them to change anything, just coment that personalities of our Origin companions are quite often very good excuses for slaping. laugh

Originally Posted by Alexandrite
I will just add - never model your "dream lover" character in BG3 after your real life partner. I made the mistake of doing that, before I knew what that character was for. So creepy, it was just wrong...
(My husband made his "dream lover" look like me, too, but he avoided using the illithid powers so never got those scenes)
In my last play i made my "dream lover" just the same as my player character (on purpose) ... it was odd ... interesting, but also odd. laugh

Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
If we are talking about datamined material ...
There is also some female-druid. wink
Oooh - really?!? I am intrigued.
time: 13:37 ... sadly forum ignores specific time link, and simply start whole video from begining. -_-

Originally Posted by vometia
Ugh. I remember playing Oranges back in the day and a friend strongly advised that I didn't pick that voice. I didn't listen and (as usual) quickly regretted doing so; I suppose it was fitting that I'd called my character Ammonia because that voice had much the same effect. That was the point I realised the urgency of learning how to use the DA Toolset so I could change her voice to something less objectionable.
The worse thing about it, is how that voice perfectly works with everything else ...
I just LOVE my mage's diabolical laugh, when he use "Virulent Walking Bomb" and kill multiple enemies with one giant splash of body parts and blood!
And then there is the ladder. -_-

Originally Posted by Passerby
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
If we are talking about datamined material ...
There is also some female-druid. wink
If you're referring to Jaheira in the datamined files, she isn't a companion.
You dont know that. :P
It may also fall into the category of "not yet implemented". wink
Posted By: Sabra Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 12:30 PM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
That said, now that I think about it, the BG3 companions never really say anything (as in, having voiced lines) when you select them to move or act in combat, while the companions of most other cRPGs will.

Pjenn on Tumblr / Youtube has datamined that the companions will be getting voiced lines during combat that change based on your relationship level with them.

Also there's a lot of party banter that's just bugged right now. Some people have unbugged them and uploaded the interactions onto Youtube.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by Sabra
Pjenn on Tumblr / Youtube has datamined that the companions will be getting voiced lines during combat that change based on your relationship level with them.

I'm looking forward to this - I anticipate my PCs going on many suicide runs in the future, just to hear the lines - but I'd like to have on-selection dialogue as well, it's been one of my favorite things since Warcraft 2.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 01:14 PM
Originally Posted by Passerby
Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by Passerby
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
If we are talking about datamined material ...
There is also some female-druid. wink

If you're referring to Jaheira in the datamined files, she isn't a companion.
Oh wow, Jaheira is still around? I kind of liked her in BG 1&2. She was my slightly annoying big sister.

Yeah, according to the datamined files, she has some interactions with Minsc, but not recruitable.

Tbh, I'd rather have her than Minsc in the party.
Posted By: vometia Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
The worse thing about it, is how that voice perfectly works with everything else ...
I just LOVE my mage's diabolical laugh, when he use "Virulent Walking Bomb" and kill multiple enemies with one giant splash of body parts and blood!
And then there is the ladder. -_-

People complain about The Man With Many Cheeses™ and taking an arrow to the knee and that they saw a mudcrab the other day; but it's much worse when it's your own character doing it constantly and that the line in question was never even amusing to begin with. Which is a shame, because I agree with you that the voice was great otherwise, but the same old novelty snark over and over again got really tiring. That character didn't get a lot of playing time even after I fixed her voice.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 02:15 PM
Well ...
So we return to Baldur's Gate, there are also some tiresome dialogues ... like when you enter Druid Groove, there is that bunch of Tieflings arguing about stay or leave ... quite anoying really fast!
Problem with talking MC is that you cant outrun him. laugh

On the other hand, i would certainly like some comentaries in combat ...
As i said diabolical cackle, cheering "yeaaah", or "nice one James!" when you score critical strike would be nice ... and they should not be so horrible since we dont critical so often. laugh

On the another other hand, i would even imagine some comentaries for critical misses ...
It sounds quite good to me, when our MC misses with nat 1 when spellcasting ... and Gale coments it with something like "let me show you". laugh
But, to return to this topic for a second ... could make him less desired as romance option to some people. laugh
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 02:41 PM
Originally Posted by Passerby
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
*Facepalm*

I was joking about the "dating your co-workers thing" I am so so so sad that you guys took it seriously. I think I died a little inside at the wall of words person that took that seriously. frown

No, you don't get to be flippant and blame Dez and me for your poor communication skills. Be clear next time, and not end an irrelevant or insulting statement with a smiley as if that will smooth things over, or convey your meaning. It's your fault if you aren't being clear, not the reader, doubly so when attempting humour that falls flat.

Within the rules of the forum I can be however I want and you don't really have any control over that. I have observed within gamer culture a certain strain of toxicity that manifests as 1) lack of self awareness 2) taking oneself too seriously 3) inability to experience joy. I'm not saying that applies to you but I don't know how else to end this sentence...

You are welcome to not interact with me. I will find some way to soldier on I am sure. :P
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by Dez
<snip>
<snip>
Sorry to derail the topic slightly, but are others seeing the spoiler labeling that I'm seeing here??

Getting back to the topic, when the game launched the only actual sex scene was with Minthara(?), so the game isn't doing too bad currently in appealing to the male gaze. SH+Minthara vs Gale+Wyll+Astarion isn't a bad ratio...though I do acknowledge that a one night stand isn't equivalent to a full companion.
Posted By: vometia Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 02:56 PM
GUYS! Don't snark. That's Laeazaeaael's job.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Sorry to derail the topic slightly, but are others seeing the spoiler labeling that I'm seeing here??

I wouldn't know anything about that.

*cough*
Posted By: Leucrotta Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 03:18 PM
I find it a little nuts with the complaints that the straight romance options for men aren't good enough. Look at the male romance options we are getting-three humans and a moon elf(vampire) Female options include not only Shadowheart-who is obviously designed to be as broadly appealing as possible and has by far the most content out of al the companions so far, but also far greater variety in options-A Githyanki, a Drow, A Tiefling and a Halfling/Gnome/whatever Helia is. No vanilla humans here! Male Romance options don't have a 'short race' option at all, and Tieflings and Drow are hugely popular (Tielfings may have surpassed drow in popularity, but there's a reason why D&D rpgs keep having drow romance options in them) And a Githyanki is just such a bold and unique choice for a romance option in a game.

Heck, if anything the male origin romance options are the ones that are underwhelming. 3 humans and Sparkles the Daywalker. We have come a long way from Anomen in BG II, but still-compare.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 04:11 PM
Can we name Astarion Sparkles the Daywalker officially, pretty please? That just made my day grin

Variety is always nice imo.
Posted By: Passerby Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
You are welcome to not interact with me. I will find some way to soldier on I am sure. :P

Good idea. I'm putting you on ignore.
Posted By: Passerby Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Dez
<snip>
<snip>
Sorry to derail the topic slightly, but are others seeing the spoiler labeling that I'm seeing here??

Getting back to the topic, when the game launched the only actual sex scene was with Minthara(?), so the game isn't doing too bad currently in appealing to the male gaze. SH+Minthara vs Gale+Wyll+Astarion isn't a bad ratio...though I do acknowledge that a one night stand isn't equivalent to a full companion.

Minthara isn't even a companion. She's a dungeon boss with benefits. So the count is just Shadowheart vs 3 strapping young men.
Posted By: Passerby Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by Leucrotta
I find it a little nuts with the complaints that the straight romance options for men aren't good enough. Look at the male romance options we are getting-three humans and a moon elf(vampire) Female options include not only Shadowheart-who is obviously designed to be as broadly appealing as possible and has by far the most content out of al the companions so far, but also far greater variety in options-A Githyanki, a Drow, A Tiefling and a Halfling/Gnome/whatever Helia is. No vanilla humans here! Male Romance options don't have a 'short race' option at all, and Tieflings and Drow are hugely popular (Tielfings may have surpassed drow in popularity, but there's a reason why D&D rpgs keep having drow romance options in them) And a Githyanki is just such a bold and unique choice for a romance option in a game.

Heck, if anything the male origin romance options are the ones that are underwhelming. 3 humans and Sparkles the Daywalker. We have come a long way from Anomen in BG II, but still-compare.

Variety isn't the point of discussion here. It's the eye-candy factor. The dreaded "male-gaze" that needs to be stamped out while the female gaze is celebrated and encouraged - see the abundance of Halsin pictures just in this forum, is leading to female companions that, while having variety, are in varieties of ugliness. The male companions, on the other hand, while largely similar in build and race, somehow all fall within the general profile of desirable men looks-wise.

The male companions are higher on the eye candy factor than the females. In fact, someone even found it hilarious that this is the case, so let's not be intellectual dishonest by claiming that having varying degrees of ugliness is somehow easier on the eyes than men that conform largely to conventional notions of male beauty. Can we at least be honest about this?
Posted By: Passerby Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by fylimar
Tbh, I'd rather have her than Minsc in the party.

I'd rather have her too, but she'd be in her old age, by now. She won't be the young half-elf we met in the first BG games, unless she's trapped in time or something.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 07:18 PM
Get me out of this Hell-Hole!. I can dance on the head of a pin as well. Hey sexy, would ya like to take a look at me diddy? Yes, oh omnipresent authority figure?

You guys are nuts, the interjections in Baldur's Gate are the best, I still say them randomly to this day.

especially, "AHH!Ah hmm-Yes?"
Posted By: Blacas Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by Passerby
... unless she's trapped in time or something.
or she is a lvl 18+ druid
Starting at 18th level, the primal magic that you wield causes you to age more slowly. For every 10 years that pass, your body ages only 1 year.
Posted By: Passerby Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by Blacas
Originally Posted by Passerby
... unless she's trapped in time or something.
or she is a lvl 18+ druid
Starting at 18th level, the primal magic that you wield causes you to age more slowly. For every 10 years that pass, your body ages only 1 year.

Well, if that's the case, she can't be a companion then, as she'd be too high level to be bothered with level 4 tadpoled noobs.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Current companions/romance options - 21/05/21 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by Passerby
Variety isn't the point of discussion here. It's the eye-candy factor. The dreaded "male-gaze" that needs to be stamped out while the female gaze is celebrated and encouraged - see the abundance of Halsin pictures just in this forum, is leading to female companions that, while having variety, are in varieties of ugliness. The male companions, on the other hand, while largely similar in build and race, somehow all fall within the general profile of desirable men looks-wise.

The male companions are higher on the eye candy factor than the females. In fact, someone even found it hilarious that this is the case, so let's not be intellectual dishonest by claiming that having varying degrees of ugliness is somehow easier on the eyes than men that conform largely to conventional notions of male beauty. Can we at least be honest about this?

Oh for goodness sake. People want to mis-quote me, fine. Yes, I did/do find it hilarious that men are complaining about this, and seem to want a conventional scantily clad Barbie type companion in this game too, when that archetype has been around all along. Men have had all the eye-candy options in games and fantasy illustrations for YEARS. Decades. All one has to do is look around at fantasy book covers, or just about any fantasy or game illustrations in general. While "the male gaze" is very much an art school term, its perspective has become so pervasive, so ingrained in our media that we hardly notice it, and assume it is the norm.

It's only in recent years that game designers have realised that women play RPGs too, that we've always been here, and have started to cater to that. And what is hilarious is that men, who have had their eye candy across the fantasy genre of books/movies/illustration/games all along, for decades, are now complaining about the apparent lack of this eye-candy equality in this one particular game. Why suddenly demand balance when there has never been balance in the fantasy genre, to begin with? Why can't we women have something nice for once and be allowed to enjoy it?

For me as a female, this game and its characters are a breath of fresh air. Female character armour design in this game is also a breath of fresh air.
Also, while this has been a primarily "straight" discussion, I do find Lae'zel and Minthara attractive in different ways, and in fact am surprised that they are dismissed out of hand so easily.

You know what else is getting out of hand? This discussion. Probably. I'm out.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/05/21 12:25 AM
People demand what they want ...
If you didnt give them gunpowder, someone else would ... and if not, they would shoot anyway. wink

A little advice: Dont take it too personaly, some people dont even bother to read whole post ... nor try to understand it. wink
Posted By: Reckem Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/05/21 01:57 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
I do find Lae'zel and Minthara attractive in different ways, and in fact am surprised that they are dismissed out of hand so easily.

For me it is their.... power.. their dominatrix like attitudes "I will take what is mine". I tend to play similar characters in table top although I have had no time for such joys since moving to Nashville to take a promotion.
Posted By: Passerby Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/05/21 02:52 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Oh for goodness sake. People want to mis-quote me, fine. Yes, I did/do find it hilarious that men are complaining about this, and seem to want a conventional scantily clad Barbie type companion in this game too, when that archetype has been around all along. Men have had all the eye-candy options in games and fantasy illustrations for YEARS. Decades. All one has to do is look around at fantasy book covers, or just about any fantasy or game illustrations in general. While "the male gaze" is very much an art school term, its perspective has become so pervasive, so ingrained in our media that we hardly notice it, and assume it is the norm.

It's only in recent years that game designers have realised that women play RPGs too, that we've always been here, and have started to cater to that. And what is hilarious is that men, who have had their eye candy across the fantasy genre of books/movies/illustration/games all along, for decades, are now complaining about the apparent lack of this eye-candy equality in this one particular game. Why suddenly demand balance when there has never been balance in the fantasy genre, to begin with? Why can't we women have something nice for once and be allowed to enjoy it?

For me as a female, this game and its characters are a breath of fresh air. Female character armour design in this game is also a breath of fresh air.
Also, while this has been a primarily "straight" discussion, I do find Lae'zel and Minthara attractive in different ways, and in fact am surprised that they are dismissed out of hand so easily.

So there we have it, everyone. Someone honest enough to loudly (and gleefully) declare that there is indeed an imbalance in the game regarding which sex gets more enjoyment out of the game on the eye candy front.

And of course, it's accompanied by the "it's my turn" argument. The tit-for-tat argument.

And it's all up to Larian to right the wrongs of the past! To institute eye candy reparations!

Originally Posted by Alexandrite
You know what else is getting out of hand? This discussion. Probably. I'm out.

Maybe don't cackle and be dismissive about issues others have with the game, and it might not come back to bite you in the ass next time? Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Posted By: vometia Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/05/21 05:26 AM
Originally Posted by Passerby
Maybe don't cackle and be dismissive about issues others have with the game, and it might not come back to bite you in the ass next time? Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Seriously, enough. There's been way too much sniping in this topic in spite of reminders to be civil.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/05/21 07:21 AM
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Oh for goodness sake. People want to mis-quote me, fine. Yes, I did/do find it hilarious that men are complaining about this, and seem to want a conventional scantily clad Barbie type companion in this game too, when that archetype has been around all along. Men have had all the eye-candy options in games and fantasy illustrations for YEARS. Decades. All one has to do is look around at fantasy book covers, or just about any fantasy or game illustrations in general. While "the male gaze" is very much an art school term, its perspective has become so pervasive, so ingrained in our media that we hardly notice it, and assume it is the norm.

It's only in recent years that game designers have realised that women play RPGs too, that we've always been here, and have started to cater to that. And what is hilarious is that men, who have had their eye candy across the fantasy genre of books/movies/illustration/games all along, for decades, are now complaining about the apparent lack of this eye-candy equality in this one particular game. Why suddenly demand balance when there has never been balance in the fantasy genre, to begin with? Why can't we women have something nice for once and be allowed to enjoy it?

For me as a female, this game and its characters are a breath of fresh air. Female character armour design in this game is also a breath of fresh air.
Also, while this has been a primarily "straight" discussion, I do find Lae'zel and Minthara attractive in different ways, and in fact am surprised that they are dismissed out of hand so easily.

You know what else is getting out of hand? This discussion. Probably. I'm out.

Pretty much. Although I think a large amount of the perception that there's a lack of apparent male gaze eye candy is due to the fact that we have two female companions out of three right now, and both can really play up the asshole angle quite a bit. Not to mention that all of the prominent female NPCs we've met are basically all villains. Meanwhile Gale is just, uh, Gale, Wyll seems like an all around good guy, Astraion is so edgy that it goes into over the top ham levels, and Halsin (while not a companion) is a rare male damsel in distress and he's a muscle druid. I don't care much for romances, but I can definitely see the appeal in these companions, if only for the sheer novelty factor.

That said, the complaints in this thread are kinda hilarious, because you'd really hate Pathfinder WotR if one were to hold that game's companions to the same standards. While the available straight romances with female characters may be more appealing to the eye in terms of their portrait and artwork, their characterization, is, uh, you're going to be in for a super rude awakening if you're expecting waifus. Like, aside from Arueshalae, people who want to play evil characters are probably going to get a lot more out of WotR.
Posted By: Passerby Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/05/21 11:31 AM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
While the available straight romances with female characters may be more appealing to the eye in terms of their portrait and artwork, their characterization, is, uh, you're going to be in for a super rude awakening if you're expecting waifus.

Why? Your opinion of male gamers here is that we only want beautiful, simpering females?
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/05/21 11:49 AM
Even if, what is wrong about wanting beautiful, simpering female? O_o
Seeing your avatar, you are also fan of pretty faces youreself. laugh

Its true that in last few years attractive females are somehow dissapearing from videogames (and movies, and series), or at least it seems to me like there is much less of them than in the not-so-far past.
Wonder why ...
Posted By: Passerby Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/05/21 12:09 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Even if, what is wrong about wanting beautiful, simpering female? O_o
Seeing your avatar, you are also fan of pretty faces youreself. laugh

I like pretty faces for sure, though they don't have to be simpering. Viconia was a popular romantic interest for our Son of Bhaal back in the day, and she was no simp. But what I'm sensing from Saito Hikari is the belief that male gamers here want female characters to be both beautiful and simpering, and that we can't handle women that have character. I have no idea why they would think that, given the popularity of Viconia, or other beautiful strong women.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Its true that in last few years attractive females are somehow dissapearing from videogames (and movies, and series), or at least it seems to me like there is much less of them than in the not-so-far past.
Wonder why ...

It's interesting, isn't it? Beautiful men are on display, even in this game, while beautiful women must be kept away from our lustful "male gaze", I guess.
Posted By: middle tab Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/05/21 01:22 PM
know. for me as a woman. there are no particularly handsome men in the game. gale is a silly face. although I like his story. Astarion is a lustful rough corpse. and Will is a man with one eye, such a Scandinavian father of the gods. in my first playthrough, all this romance was a pain in my choice. and then I accidentally opened a weaving scene with gale ... and she tried me on with this wizard
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/05/21 01:27 PM
Originally Posted by Passerby
But what I'm sensing from Saito Hikari is the belief that male gamers here want female characters to be both beautiful and simpering, and that we can't handle women that have character.
I didnt get that impesion to be honest ...
It seemed more like if he was complaining (or poiting out the fact, strike out what does not apply) about the fact that all (read as both) female companions have quite simmilar preferences.

I mean ...
If you want Wyll, you have to be pure good ...
If you want Gale, you have to be quite good ...
If you want Astarion, you have to be kinda jerk ...
If you want Lae'zel, you have to be kinda jerk ...
If you want Shadowheart, you have to be kinda jerk ...

So ... it dont seem like lack of character was desired here, more like it was subject of the complaint.
But maybe i get that wrong.

Originally Posted by Passerby
It's interesting, isn't it? Beautiful men are on display, even in this game, while beautiful women must be kept away from our lustful "male gaze", I guess.
I have some theories ...
But i try hard to keep real life politics out of my coments. smile
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/05/21 02:10 PM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
While the available straight romances with female characters may be more appealing to the eye in terms of their portrait and artwork, their characterization, is, uh, you're going to be in for a super rude awakening if you're expecting waifus.

That's interesting to hear. I like games that buck the "pretty waifu" stereotype, though it's apparently much safer to buck the "waifu" part (as you're saying WotR does) than the "pretty" part (and trying to buck both is quite risky, as we're seeing in this game!).
Posted By: fylimar Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/05/21 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
If you want Shadowheart, you have to be kinda jerk ...

That is not true, SH is nowadays my goto romance and I mostly play really good characters. She approves of quite a lot good deeds - and almost always, when you avoid bloodshed by talking your way out. With my good playstyle, I find getting approval with her easier than even with Wyll.

About attractive females: As I said before, most people are probably looking for some eyecandy in games, so it would be in Larians interest, to give the straight males and the not so straight females something to look at. If Karlach is available, I'll probably romance her, no matter how she looks, but I for example really liked her look as it is now in the games.
There are some really attractive females in the game, like Alfira, Kagha, the advicer of the abducted duke for example - sadly none of them are to become companions (maybe they will later on, but I won't get my hopes up).
I must say, that I'm genrally not that impressed with our current companions, they are a bit too edgy and too much special snowflakes for me.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/05/21 04:36 PM
That is certainly at least odd ... i get disaproval from Shadow every single time i offered my help to someone. O_o

I honestly dont quite understand what people like about Alfira ...
Both in her looks, and personality. :-/
Personaly i find her anoying, whiny and stupidly naive (or naively stupid? ... something like that). :-/
Her face is fine i gues ... but right in the same settlement there is at least few other Tieflings who looket better.

Alfira could work as perfect example for why we do need to set ears separately from face, just like we do with horns ...
She would look thousand times better if she dont have this sheep-like canvas(?) sticked to her head. frown
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/05/21 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by middle tab
know. for me as a woman. there are no particularly handsome men in the game. gale is a silly face. although I like his story. Astarion is a lustful rough corpse. and Will is a man with one eye, such a Scandinavian father of the gods. in my first playthrough, all this romance was a pain in my choice. and then I accidentally opened a weaving scene with gale ... and she tried me on with this wizard

Yeah, Felicia Day provided similar feedback. She didn't see any of the male companions as particularly attractive. She called Gale "a Bad Burt Reynolds look alike.." or something. She mentioned that Astarion came off as "far more creepy than sexy".

I honestly don't see any of the companions as being particularly attractive except maybe Shadowheart - and she has a pretty standoffish personality.

Overall I think this is a good thing. It partially subverts the expectation that companions are there to be a "all you can eat sex smorgasbord" for players.

But here is where things get dicey - is it a problem that everyone is bisexual in Faerun (or at least all the companions), because the subtext suggest the opinion that sexuality isn't a fixed thing. To be sure, some people are bisexuals, but most people are either gay or straight - unless things work differently in the forgotten realms.

However, this also could be sending the message that sexuality is irrelevant! Which is pretty woke and makes a compelling point as well. That it is counterproductive to build characters based around a sexual orientation.

Or is it even much simpler than that - where the devs know that players are conditioned to have the expectation that they can romance companions and they simply said "Ok, have fun, they will sleep with anyone...literally a heartbeat is the requirement and maybe not even that in the case of Astarion - knock yourselves out"
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/05/21 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
But here is where things get dicey - is it a problem that everyone is bisexual in Faerun (or at least all the companions), because the subtext suggest the opinion that sexuality isn't a fixed thing. To be sure, some people are bisexuals, but most people are either gay or straight - unless things work differently in the forgotten realms.

However, this also could be sending the message that sexuality is irrelevant! Which is pretty woke and makes a compelling point as well. That it is counterproductive to build characters based around a sexual orientation.

Or is it even much simpler than that - where the devs know that players are conditioned to have the expectation that they can romance companions and they simply said "Ok, have fun, they will sleep with anyone...literally a heartbeat is the requirement and maybe not even that in the case of Astarion - knock yourselves out"
Im not quite sure if we are suppose to start this topic again, since every other threat where it started was quite soon locked, since some people just started to take it personaly. ._.

But even tho i agree with this ...
I still concider it minor problem, compared to the fact that companions are willing to sleep with litteraly anything. :-/ Not just in matter of gender, but in mainly in matter of that word, people freak about, wich starts with R and ends with ACE.

One of main characteristic of Shadowheart is the fact that she hates Gith ... and she have realy good reason for it. But once you play gith, and once you manage to gather enough "aproval" points ... she no longer care, she is totally willing to spend her evening with you, kiss you, and probably even sleep with you in the future. :-/
Posted By: middle tab Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/05/21 05:13 PM
I played for the priestess of gith. and SH didn't want to have anything to do with her at first. until the "voices" made her come to the camp. So what? at a party, she called my tav out on a date. perhaps this is just an indicator of trust and respect on her part. considering that she kept swearing on Liz. in general, this problem has existed since the beginning of all games. I remember playing Neverwinter 2 as a tiefling. and me, in the same way, the attitude of the NPC was upset. when they simply ignored her race and scolded one of the squad members for the same thing. I understand this is done for the comfort of the player. but this is not always "comfortable" for the player
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/05/21 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by Passerby
Why? Your opinion of male gamers here is that we only want beautiful, simpering females?

No, I’m just pointing out that they’re really out there, and that it’s actually a much bigger topic of contention within that community than it is here.

Like you’re pretty much railroaded towards Arue or Queen Galfrey for a non evil play through in every possible meaning, and the latter isn’t even a playable character. Although to be fair, the nature of the entire adventure path tries to push you towards Arueshalae to begin with, because of the whole succubus trying to redeem herself thing. Her romance is by far the most developed.

(One of the other romances even locks you out of another playable companion. Granted, he’s also a romance and favoring him does the same to her, but he’s generally considered the better character in terms of characterization and combat role overall. Fighter archer VS Zen Archer Monk is a pretty unfair comparison when the latter is far more interesting in every possible way.)

Actually, it’s a pretty curious trend how there seems to be way more female characters that are unapologetically evil these days. Or have extremely dubious agendas. And that a good majority of them are romance able.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/05/21 06:07 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Im not quite sure if we are suppose to start this topic again, since every other threat where it started was quite soon locked, since some people just started to take it personaly. ._.

But even tho i agree with this ...
I still concider it minor problem, compared to the fact that companions are willing to sleep with litteraly anything. :-/ Not just in matter of gender, but in mainly in matter of that word, people freak about, wich starts with R and ends with ACE.

One of main characteristic of Shadowheart is the fact that she hates Gith ... and she have realy good reason for it. But once you play gith, and once you manage to gather enough "aproval" points ... she no longer care, she is totally willing to spend her evening with you, kiss you, and probably even sleep with you in the future. :-/

You are probably right. Its a sensitive topic. Best to leave it.

yeah and the Gith/Shadowheart thing makes no sense given her perception and the implications of her mission.
Posted By: Sozz Re: Current companions/romance options - 22/05/21 08:12 PM
I've never been too sure what the 'male gaze' is but I always assumed it wasn't about beauty as much as it was about presentation. Such as how the camera views a woman, or how her costume is designed. Not saying she has the most attractive face, a pretty subjective notion.
© Larian Studios forums