Some races are too easily accepted in civilised areas.

For example gith and drow. The first reaction in groove should grabbing weapons followed up with persuade checks / proving yourself, not being hugged, welcomed in, and even approached by an elf high druidess to drive fugitives out.

I play a drow, and despite being eilistraeen cleric every single elf, human, etc npc keeps tapping her shoulder warmly in friendish manner. Awknard, totally breaking any immersion. And the worst even, if i tug along Laezel! Gith and drow walk into groove and everyone just gives you happy smiles and applauds you for poking about.

There should be hostilities in dialogues on first encounters, persuade checks all over the place to get anywhere. To make difference between seldarine and lloth/evil pantheon worshipping drow? Give to the seldarine drow bonuses on persuade checks afterall game makes them visually different (least for an elf).

Also the Laezel openning for her quest makes totally no sense.

So that guy has friend stabbed by a Gith and tells noone in the groove? and if he does, everyone just smiles as "gith" strolls about. Laezel goes out of her way to threathen the guy in the middle of the groove rofl and noone lifts a brow. You make the guy to kneel and everyone pretends to look elsewhere? The guy is not even standing anywhere aside of the groove, he is right in the middle of place serving as market place.

Mmm yeah I do agree there.

WotC has been trying to remove racial tensions in the setting (personally for the worse) so what you are seeing is normal.

That being said, Larian isn’t making much attempt to make encounters grounded or real as your examples show. You’ll just have to suspend your disbelief more and more.

Whats the purpose of playing a drow or gith then when the entire game should fully neglect all it brings along? We could then just play a human hue brown or elf hued black.

Not arguing with you, in fact I’m on your side. Just stating the trend.

WotC is actually phasing out the word "race" as well. I guess they don't want anyone get reminded of any painful reality in their fantasy games.

Tbh, I don't really uh feel their replacement word, "Lineages". Lineages makes it sound like everyone is of a royal line or something, while Race evokes ideas of different kinds of people to me.
I don't really mind them trying to replace it to avoid controversy or whatever cause functionally it is the same, but I'd prefer a different word to Lineage.

Oh, are they going all in on that? I assumed they were just using the term "Lineage" for Dhampir, Hag Heir, and Reborn because you can be any Race and still be one of those. A gnome Dhampir's race is still gnome.

I definitely find myself identifying with the more misunderstood and stigmatized races like the Drow (more so personally because theirs mirrors the individualistic, selfish and conniving Western culture than anything race-related) and Tieflings (being victimized by their stereotypes and sometimes eventually succumbing to the evil nature that others assume of them). I personally don't mind the term "race" because the dynamic is similar to the real world. I'm mixed with Black, White, and Native American blood.

Oh maybe? I thought Lineage was becoming a sort of replacement? If it referred to a specific archetype and was not just human+X/new thing like past races and instead anything + Lineage, that'd be pretty cool. This is all offtopic but might be a cool thing for there to be an eratta if there isn't one already for things like an Elven Half Orc or a Dwarfish Shifter?

Lineage absolutely will replace 'race' in the next edition, and any release going forward. You can bet on it.

As to the reactions to Drow, Gith, and (imo) Tiefling, thats just lazy writing/coding. Those absolutely should elicit a different response in dialogue.

This has been a thing in most DnD video games I've ever played; because they want to provide a large sample of races for players to pick, but they also don't want players to be stopped from... you know... actually playing the game.

In NWN2 I think I remember all of two lines dedicated towards being suspicious of your drow or deep gnome, or grey orc, or yuan-ti, and then the rest just played out the same as it always did. The only difference was with the yuan-ti, and the storm of zehir expansion, you could get "discovered" to be yuan-ti by roaming patrols on the overworld map, which would then attack you. But I just treated this as free experience, it didn't really have any effect on the story of the game.

What do you expect from Hasbro.

I'm expecting 6.0 to introduce Pony Friends.

Everything D&D since TSR works toward turning D&D into a Dora the Explorer episode.

Watch out for the hot lava everyone, and Swiper no Swiping !!

Yeah, my daughter went through that phase.

Uh, things are different from past editions, arguably easier Module-wise, but I don't think its that extreme?
Players can die if their DM is creative or is genuinely trying to give a challenge.
Lorewise, most things are intact, or just a progression from past editions. Surface Drow have been a thing for a long time, Drizzt Do'Urden being the most notable example, though they still experience some distrust though not outright violence anymore.
And I might be reading into "Swiper no Swiping" the wrong way, but dnd has always allowed and even rewarded evil actions, you can do messed up stuff and be the villain. Murder, steal, summon demons, cohort with devils, enslave, side with villains, and so on.
And if you just mean that challenges are trivial, that is all up to the DM, as by using the tools at their disposal, they likely could create a challenge that can be won but also can kill players. It is a hard balance to achieve, but it is very possible.

It is worth noting that when you get to the Grove the game has to side with them against an army of goblins that would've slaughtered the people outside the gates and then reported back, giving away the grove's position and endangering everyone inside.

That is pretty solid grounds for why the people of the Grove don't see you as a threat as a drow or gith. You've already demonstrated that you aren't there as a raider or conqueror. You've saved all their lives.

It would surely be nice if more individual NPCs reacted to my gith, but at the same time there are more NPCs who do that in this game than in most other RPGs I've played so it isn't like it is entirely absent either.

I agree with the OP... Playing as a Lloth sworn Drow should mean getting an overtly hostile reaction from EVERY civilized race that you encounter. Playing as a Tief should mean almost noone trusts you. Playing as a Halfling should mean everyone thinks you're going to pickpocket them at any moment. Playing as a Gith should mean you're treated with severe suspicion and hostility everywhere you go and that you're openly attacked if you go near anyone that's ever encountered your kind before (as the experience was most certain to have been an unpleasant one). If they ever put Aasimar in this game, I would expect a LOT of resentment from the tiefs.

Furthermore, choosing certain classes should illicit strong reactions. The Cleric (or Paladin, eventually) of an Evil God should not be well received in most places. If you're a Cleric/Paladin of Selune in particular then Shadowheart should, at best, clam up tight and keep her mouth shut (not even hint at, let alone give up the secret of who she worships) and should, at most realistic, slit your throat (or try to) the very first time that you go to a long rest with her in the party. I also don't imagine that a Cleric/Paladin of Mystra would take too kindly to hearing former archmage Gale talk about how he used to clap them magical cheeks.

People who played Baldur's Gate 1/2 will be confused by that. They expect Drow being evil, supremacist Elves and are confused when no one fears or hates them.

That's the problem: If you remove any conflict and any differences from a game, you don't have a story anymore. People have no reason to play your game.

One of the coolest D&D sessions I had was when I allowed a player to play a Drow. She had to constantly hide her identity - but when we came to he Underdark she could pass of her fellow party members as her personal slaves and property

Political ideology kills every good story.

This really makes me want to play BG2 again.

This is how I feel about it specifically for the Grove area...everyone knows you just saved their arses and they're kewl with it/you.

However when my drow toon walked up to Waukeen's Rest apparently right after it was attacked by a group of drow and the guards don't all drop what they are doing to come confront me thinking/wondering if I wasn't part of the same group come back for more that admittedly made no sense to me.

I think the excuse there is you rushed in and helped the ambassador lady? Though perhaps in that case there should be more than just remarks and closer to a genuine skill check because they would have a very very good reason to not assume you are a surface drow.

He did ... to that two tieflings you meet when you find Lae'zel ...
You remember what they say? "Zoru was right, yellow as a toad and twice as ugly."

But i totally agree, i was looking forward for how much will game change, when i pick up "usualy evil" race ... and i was incredibly disapointed.
Maybe they would do better to not include them at all, if they didnt plan to include them properly.

I believe that is the reason we have Disguise self? O_o

That sounds to me like reason enough to not kill your Gith, or Drow on sight ... but give him a chance ...
Not like a reason to forget everything you know your entire life and share beer with them. :-/

Also how exactly does other NPC in groove know what you did?
I can get that Zevlor told the tiefligns, any maybe that Halfling vendor ... but Kagha and other druids inside? O_o

But anyway, dot forget that Groove isnt the only "civilized" place we vizit ...
There is also toll house, where they were just attacked by gnolls ... therefore they should be aware of this part of world isnt safest place. Yet they are quite fine with your tiefling / drow / gith ...
There is also that burning homestead, where they were just attacked by DROWS!!! ... yet when your Drow approaches, they ask him for help them with stucked doors. O_o
And finaly there is Myconid village ... it may not be civilisation as we usualy talk about it, but they were just decimated by attack of Duegars ... yet they seem to not care at all about Drows, even special Drow dialogue option gives you free entrance, instead of attack. O_o

I think, they could have especially handled the Waukeens rest part better with a drow. I was expecting them attacking me on sight, when I approached the place as a drow, but there was not even a special dialogue. And then after you saved the elven lady, you suddenly become a dick as a drow with only having the option to politely or not so politely decline her plea to find the Duke. I mean: wtf? Why is everything sunshine and roses and in the end you don't even have the option to be decent.

Didn't DoS:2 have a thing where the undead folk weren't as easily accepted as the other races? And even a head-piece to disguise them, if i'm not mistaken. But then again, DoS didn't have as many character options as BG3. With all the races that are planned to be on the latter i'd be honestly surprised if they managed to provide more than some flavour and the occational callback.

I think thy did it right on Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines, where you had to stay in the shadows as a Nosferatu (a Clan that is horrible disfigured) and people react to your Malkavian (a Clan that has mental issues). I would love for something similar here.

Well, ppl in Grove and Goblins react on Drow exactly as they should.

Because you helped Grove, they accept you, but only for that reason. The goblins are afraid of you. Yes, individual npc are not very responsive yet. I especially don't like it in companions. Only Shadow notes that you are a Drow. Everyone else just doesn't care. Weird.

Yes, if you started as an undead you got a bunch of extra clothing items to cover yourself, but only the hood was important, as long as you had some kind of hat on, even if your skullface and bones are fully visible (thanks elf clothing), it was apparently fine.

Except I lost count of all the people I saw whining about how it was impossible to play as an undead without having npcs go hostile on you. Somehow I never managed to have this issue, and I had a great time playing my undead elf and being incredulous at all the boney intercourse I was apparently having.

They could do something along this line for monstrous or evil player characters, but they likely won't, because there are many more racial options than DOS2 already, and you all know that they will save their special efforts for the origin characters, not for making npcs yell at Drow.

So much this. Even "Type" (which is basically what "race" means) or "People" would be better. Lineage is something personal, or rather familial. It's not something you share with even your own people.

Well in the case of fantasy races that literally descend from one god or person it might have relevancy. But even then they have to change their names to adjective forms or I'd still complain.

Shadow of the Demon Lord uses "Ancestry" which is dumb for the same reason but slightly less so than "Lineage". Words I can think of off the top of my head that I would prefer would be maybe "Kin/Ken" or "Folk".

True, there's also that to think about. Hopefully custom characters don't end up feeling like blander origins. I never really got past the starting area of DoS2 because of that.

That game was great.

I agree. It's just unrealistic when no one really pays attention to drow or thiefling, no matter who they are. Racism is bad in the real world, and bad in the game, too, but you shouldn't pretend it doesn't exist. Since it still exists in our world, DnD should be even more so, especially since, for example, drows have a much worse reputation than any people with a different skin color in the real world. When playing as drow or thiefling, I would like to feel that I am playing someone that others hate or at least do not trust. I want to feel like a badass, even if my character is nice and kind.
And if I play an aasimar, I want people to show me more trust or sympathy, and I want the thieflings, cambions and similar creatures to show open aversion.
And if I want to play the priest of an evil god whose worship is not secret, I expect at least a crooked glance.

The best - and I think, they really handled playing the different clans very well. YOur conversation as a Toreador with Gary Golden or the constant distrust from nearly every vampire npc as a Tremere or the caution, if you play Malkavian ('what does she know about me'?) is just great.
I would like to see something similar in BG3. There are some moments, where it is done well - for example with the tieflings that caught Lae'zel. If you approach them as Githyanki or Drow, they are ready to attack on sight, your only hope is to intimidate them.
But other than that, tehre is no drawback or change, if you play those two races.

Playing as a Malkavian was probably one of my most entertaining solo game experiences really. Is it on Steam? I should play it again...

It's on Steam and with the unofficial patch by Wesp most of the bugs are gones. Wesp even restored some content that didn't make it into the finished game. Malkavians are the best.

Amen! Let us submit to the supremacy of those who advocate for people to be perpetually offended, and takes it upon themselves to change language so snowflakes are forever sheltered...angry and infantilized.

The use of "race" is a misnomer anyway, SPECIES is the correct term. Similarly, "subrace" should simply be race. But who cares when new-speak gives power?

Your just going to get the thread locked with talk like that.

I mean language is there for a reason. Words actually mean something and convey specificity. Yet so many miss use words and encourage slang. Species is the correct term like Seraphael pointed out and it always bothers me that many to this day default to black people being another species instead of being literally a human with natural melanin. Whatever I guess. Larian seems to know how to be respectful so thats enough for me concerning this game.

Please leave real-world racial politics out of the discussion.

After Patch 4 "fist" reacts aggressively on Drow in the burning settlement. Good addition! There is a stats check or you can just have a fight.

Oooh, I'll have to check that out. Larian does put in an explanation of why everyone in the Grove more or less trusts the PC, but everyone outside should be reaching for a weapon on sight, like the tieflings near Lae'zel do.

I agree - a reason to play a drow again. The Flaming FIst encounter as a drow realyl annoyed me. They didn't even react to my race, while telling me, that drow and goblins attacked them. So adding a bit of hostility in there is a step in the right direction.

If I'm honest, it was always kinda stupid, in DnD and any other rpg, to use "race" as the word.
NOT because of any political sjw nonsense, but because they were never races. They were species.

Drow, Gith, and humans are not different races, they are different species. That is the word that should be used. That is the word that should always have been used.
And in turn race is the subset of the species. So when you pick the human species, and then edit the skin color, *that* is the race setting.
So it is absolutely RIDICULOUS to me to hear that WotC wants to change the word to "lineages". Just WHY. That term doesn't separate types of creatures, it seperates family trees within one type of creature. If they really feel the need to stop using "race" they could at least switch to the term it should have been the whole time.

As for the start of this game, at least, those two tieflings ahead of the grove do have Lae in a cage and instantly go to attack a drow or gith player; then everyone in the Grove has the fact you just helped defend them from a goblin attack to think about.

I gotta say though, I love the interaction between that one tiefling merchant-thief-kid and a Seladrine drown.
Kids sees you walking up and thinks something like *oh hey, it's one of those creatures from those nonsense rumors adults made up to scare me. "Hey dude, is that bs they say about you lot true :)"*
And you just casually go "Nah, that's the other kind, if you see one run TF away little child."
Kid be like "Oh..... 0_0"

Side not for that one commenter who will probably never see this since I didn't quote them:
Don't forget paladins aren't attached to gods anymore. They just make oaths, a god is not needed.

I mean, that entire argument rests on the arbitrarily decided designation biologists use in their denominational system being the only definitions of the words. It doesn't really have any relation to the actual meaning of the words.

In other words: who gives a shit?

Kinda funny they want to change it to lineages, though. But then again Amazon changed a logo 'cause it looked like Hitler's mustache to some loonies, so who knows anything anymore nowadays.

Hmm, I got to the settlement with a drow and this didn't happen - there was only a slightly different line from one of the folks at the door. Maybe it's different for Lloth-sworn than for Seldarine?

Well ... yes, but actualy no ...
Few purely retorical questions:

What is difference between Drow, High Elf and Wood Elf?
Or between Duegar, Gold Dwarf and Shield Dwarf?
Or between Deep Gnome and Rock Gnome?
Or between Githyanki or Githzerai?
Or between Human from one side of the world and other side of the world.
You get the idea ...

Isnt it easier to simply call it all races, than somethimes races, sometimes species, sometimes cultural difference, and somethines i dunno flavours prehaps ...
Just to be absolutely corect? :-/

That is really wonderfull news ...
Can anyone confrim?

They once attack me on sight too, but it was bcs i kinda fall on one of them, wich was concidered attacking.

I hope that we will finally have in a finished game a hostility and intolerance from some (and the best most of them) NPC's when playing as drow. And not only as Lolth-Sworn Drow but also as Seladrine Drow. Even if both types of drows differ physically and you can distinguish them from each other, not every NPC must know the differences between them to know who he has to deal with. Not to mention countless stories about cruelty of drows, whose all generations listened by hundreds of years. Something like that must arouse distrust, even in the hearts of some NPC's that are actually know about the difference between Lolth-Sworn Drow and Seladrine Drow.

+1 to OP.

Also not only are they merely reacting when you - as drow or gith litteraly the stuff of nightmares in the FR - appear. No one even mentions the fact that a drow appears on the surface, in blistering sunlight.

My personal copium-generating theory is that Larian did implement a Day/night cycle in the game, but is holding it out of EA to drop as one of the big surprises for EA-participants post-launch. Think about it, a lot of stuff would make tremendously more sense (e.g. Astarion/drow/etc. existing in the day, the goblin attack taking place under nightly conditions which favour rather than penalize them) and it would be one of the ultimate 'ok, I forgive you for all the other incoherence and stuff you changed from the 20 year old predecessor games' things (at least for me it would).

Either that, or Larian and anything WoTC related will end up being classified in the Cyberpunk-Hype-Money-Grab category in my head.

A few points to make on this topic. First is that species implies incompatibility in terms of romance. In other words, if there is no way for the two to have children, then they would be considered a different species. Cats and dogs are of a different species because they cannot mate and have young.

When D&D first began, the races were compatible. You had elf, dwarf, halfling, and human. Although you did not see half dwarves or half halflings, that is mainly because people did not like the concept of such races intermingling. They didn't mind the concept of elf and human because they were of the same size and were relatively close in many ways.

It has evolved since then to include a lot of other races. Although you don't see half tieflings or half dragonborn, there is still a sort of freedom in the game to build such romances should the players like the idea. Shoot. You now even have half ogres in D&D. I'm not even sure how that works. I don't think I want to know.

But if you tack on the label species, it immediately puts up a mental barrier that says that those two races are incompatible and unnatural. Immediately, one starts to think that if they had a romance between, say, a tiefling and a dragonborn that it would be like a romance between a bird and a fish or a cat and a dog. It starts to get kind of creepy.

As it is, the more creature the race, the more creepy it is for me. A dragonborn romance with any other race but a dragonborn is just kind of weird to me. The same is true for many of the races the further away from human you get.

But anyway, in terms of people treating different races more harshly in the game, they have had people respond to drow differently. But they did not want this to be a hindering part of the game, so right away they have Zevlor say that he is going to announce to everyone that you are a friend and not an enemy so that you can actually interact with people in the Grove.

But lots of characters actually react to you being a Drow. Goblins immediately see you and treat you like you are their Superior. Kagha is very excited to meet an under elf. Minthara makes a comment as well as does Ragzlin.

The point is that they have these things in the game, and I think they do it pretty well to avoid players getting frustrated if they're playing a member of a certain race. They could maybe do a little more with some of the other races like the Gith, but overall I thought they did pretty well.

As for sun sensitivity, I would not want them to put that into the game for your drow character unless they create a day-night cycle. Imagine having disadvantage on all of your attack rolls and skill rolls while on the surface. Just about every fight in the EA you would have disadvantage for. No thank you.

Don't get me wrong, I want them to implement a day night cycle so that they will put in the Sun sensitivity trait as it should be, but if they aren't going to do day night, then absolutely no. That would make them the worst race to play.

I believe i have seen such reaction ...
If i remember corectly, the guarding goblin from the roof in Blighted Village is the one who said it.

Goblins are done well ... they approach you completely differently if you are Drow ... you can blow your cover tho, and that is fine.
All others are kinda lame, bcs that mentioned coment is usualy all and everything you get. :-/

What i (and concidering this topic, im not alone in this) would like would be completely different experience ...
Not "oh you are Drow ... well, usualy i dont thrust your kind but you seem to be okey" > jump to exactly same generic conversation as any other race. -_-

NO!

I want my Drow (/Gyth/Half-Orc/ ... maybe even Tiefling, when talking to someone else than his own kind ) to be distrusted, i want to roll persuation checks, just to get out something other races will get in regular talk ... i want to have completely diferent dialogues ... i want (and this will be potentialy unpopular part) to be restricted from some approaches to side quests!

Take Arabella for example ... Drows are known for kidnaping childern to their bloody sacrifices, or faiths even worse ...
Does it make sence that any consterned mother would enthrust faith of her only (as it seems) child to such creature? It doesnt to me.

- Regular race: Talking to Locke and his wife (i dont remember the name) ... gets to know that Arabella is judged, and you are asked to speak in her behalf ... later you enter the inner sanctum and you see the process ... blah blah blah, you know the rest.

- Drow (or other evil race): Talking to Lock and his wife all you get to know is that their child is in danger ... either you win your persuation roll and then you find out the same info (prefferably with some coments about how desperate they are to ask a Drow for help) ... or you loose your persuation roll and then they tells you something about that they never save their child just to give it to YOUR hands *insert apropriate insult here* ... later you enter the inner sanctum and you see the process ... blah blah blah, you know the rest.

This is what i want ...
In the end the outcome for player is the same ... but NPCs actualy DONT THRUST YOU ... not "oh Zevlor said you are okey, lets completely forget about everything we heared about your kind our whole life ... and also lets forget that Zevlors judgement isnt exactly the best one all the time, bcs it was HIM who get us into this dead trap."

I would call that "barely acceptable" at best ...

Pretty well would be if the game would actualy offer you alternative routes if you are certain Races (or Class if they have bad reputation ... for example i can imagine that not many people would like Warlocks) bcs the regular one is unacessible for you.

Example from different game:
I hate Museum quest in Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines ... bcs that whole level is created for sneaking character, there is no other approach aviable for you.
If you play Nosferatu wich can "magicaly turn invisible" (huge oversimplification) ... this level is no bigy for you.
But once you play Toreador, or Ventrue wich both specialize in social interaction ... you are screwed, bcs your only way to finish this level is try hard your best to do something your clan (feel free to read as class) is not suppose to do well ... and even if you potentialy can spend XP for it, to become good enough to finish this quest (and honestly its not even that hard ... people can notice you, you are just forbidden to kill) it still leaves you bitter taste, bcs this is just not what you were suppose to do, roleplay-wise.

Part of a planned Goblin character of mine is him being Dour because of these constant reactions "Yeah yeah, I'm a Goblin, get it out of your system.".

+1 to the fact that I would prefer more reaction on my character being a drow form "non-evil" npc`s. Dont really feel that I am playing a "monster from horror stories" most of the time. Even with Waukeen's rest: this place was attacked by drow not so log ago, their duke was captured by drow, and reaction on my drow was only "aaa, drow!" from one woman (who, for some reason is not busy with trying to open the door...) and people near the door react on me only "why are you standing, go and help!" That just looks really absurd, imho
Or Tyr`s paladins who react on drow "hey, come in, take a rest, help us". Should they... I don't know... at least be surprised about drow?

Also was very surprised about little to none reaction on half drow.
I don't know much about lore, but for my eyes the character I create as drow and a half drow really look very similar (dark skin, red eyes, white hair), but nearly all npc`s in game from the first sight understand that I am "not real" drow and just treat me as human. How dos that work? Even Nettie doesn't comment about a drow.

Feel free to corect me anyone if im wrong ...

But i think Half-Drow is Larian invention ... like they werent the thing before BG-3.
(Wich kinda makes sense ... no Drow would ever ebarase themself by having sex with any of "lesser races" ... aswell as no human should have the desire ... even tho on the other hand, it seems much easier to me than having a thing for Orcs. :-/ Ugh. )

And about why so many people dont miss them ... well, there is entire threat about that topic: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=686081#Post686081

The way i understands it, Elves "should" look a LOT less human-like ...
But since Larian is scaning human heads for their models, they dont have properly alien elf look ... but there "should" be clear difference ... therefore people cant misstake Elf (or Drow) for Half-Elf (or Drow), bcs they simply are different.
The way i excuse absence of this in the game itself, is that Elves are simply too unknown for my Middle Europian bran to catch the small details ... i reason it the same in games that uses same model for every alien race (like Batarians, Krogans, Turians, Salarians or Vorcha in Mass Effect).

I dont want to sound racist, but when i see pictures of some Asian people, i often dont see much difference between them aswell ... so, this would probably be simmilar case.

In fact, a lot has changed since 2e.
In frequent raid areas, drows are hardly liked more than in 2e times, but in the case of a city like BG, the drow won't have much trouble.
From what I remember, the BG currently has quite a large population of drows.
In addition, in the city you can also find representatives of more "monstrous" races.

As for me, the response to the drow in the game is pretty good with one exception.
While it's not that bad, in the end, a single drow shouldn't be a threat to the Flaming Fist squad, especially when they're busy rescuing their boss.

Half-Drow have been a thing since 3e at least, and been in several crpg games, but they have usually been a sub-race option, or even just a cosmetic option, for Half-Elf. I'm not sure why BG3 seems to want to separate Drow from Elves and Half-Drow from Half-Elves.

Once again, with feeling:

Drow are Elves, Larian! Drow are Elves!

Pretty sure Neverwinter Nights 2 allowed Half-Drow for Half-Elves as well.
That games had sub-races for DAYS.

The drow did get "whitewashed" somewhat as of 4e, if I am not mistaken, as many of them were driven to the surface during the Spellplague events and there was a whole diaspora living in at least Neverwinter.

I do agree that the githyanki should just have a different BG city experience in Act 2 from the rest of the races. You see a Flaming Fist patrol wiped out by them, and being all welcome in a city that seems to be going through crises on a regular basis in the late XVth century as an outer-planar usually-invader whose people have no concept of empathy would be really out of place. I guess there could be deception checks involved to try to pass oneself as a githzerai or something (and a githzerai would have to do persuasion checks to convince people that they aren't dangerous).

I gues its bcs they have their own two sub-races ...
It would be weird to have them all in same folder ...

Also Drow have quite different set of racial bonuses. :-/

And from worldbuilding perspective ... yes we all know that "technicaly" Drow are elves ... but i bet neither group likes to hear that.

I dont think they are separate. O_o
Since first start of Early Acess they are both sub-races of Half-Elves ... only in pre-launch version, when Swen was playing, we have seen them separated.

That's the problem if you make too many races available, you had to tell a lot of different stories to make it consistent. I think it's not worth the effort. And on the other hand, imagine the shitstorm by many fans if Drows etc. would be really handled differently during the main story in a consequent manner. And perhaps thrown out by a charisma check?

Specificaly ... 2. O_o

One set of interaction if your Race is widely accepted in comunities.
And one set of interactions if your Race is not.

Sure, it can quite easily be messed up ... and that would suck.
Question is how would developers deal with such predicament ... in my honest opinion, right now it IS screwed, not so badly as it could be ... but also certainly not even close to as good as it should be.

Have you ever played Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines?
Its 2004 game, from Troika games (no longer existing studio) ... there you pick clan (something like Race + Class messed together) ... and while you indeed can walk through whole game as any of them, no choice will restrict you in this matter ...
BUT! ... NPCs react diferently on you, and in some extreme cases (called Nosferatu, where you are creature so ugly and hideous some NPCs become hostile just bcs you reached too close) you are forced by your choice to search for alternative routes.

Few examples:
- Instead of walking to the building through the front door ... you need to crawl through sewers and sneak through the back door.
- Instead of sneaking through the hidden entrance ... you can steal invitation from one of guests on social event, and pretend you are him/her.
- Instead of talking to NPC and persuating him to write and bad review on restaurant ... you can use your supernatural abilities to make him see worms on his plate.
- Depending on your clan, you get acess (or are resticted from) to certain apartments, some are locked behind a quest, some are extra reward for certain clans, some cant get any of them.

That is the kind of reactivity we (read as i) would like to see ...

And the best part is, that Larian (at least as it seems to me) actualy is trying to achieve something really close!
Just look at amount of permutations you can do with Kagha quest ...

The best example (in my opinion) for Baldur's Gate III. would be Arabella, or Counselor Florrick ...
No matter if anyone tells you, they still are in danger ...
- while Arabella parents would refuse to talk to a Drow about their problems, you would still have option to save her (even with that satisfying apology from her mother, for doubting you, idealy) ...
- in Florrick case, she would still be traped in burning building and would need your help, no matter if her soldiers would attack you or not ...

Well, thats why they have racial bonus isnt it?

Ayup, in DOS2 if you went into the cities as a undead (without the mask) then you could definitely expect to be attacked. *may or may not have forgotten to disguise Fane on multiple occasions*

So, Larian definitely knows how to execute these kind of things when they want to. Either they changed their minds for BG3, or WotC are the ones responsible for the "everybody is fine"-treatment.

That was also unfortunately a very meaningless system - if you wear clothes, you are concealed.

I think the only game which did extreme races well was Bloodlines, and that’s “the thing” that game did.

I imagine it might be the case that WotC insisted on implementing fantasy race inclusivity. Personally I preferred the notion that certain races might face hostility and distrust in certain locales because it creates more interesting RP possibilities.

Except the PHB literally talks about certain races facing distrust and prejudice because of past events or stereotypes. WOtC aren't the ones pushing this, this issue stems from a lack of effort, not someone putting effort into deliberately making the game bland.

This problem isn't exclusive to 5e, nor to BG3, I've seen it in multiple crpgs based on D&D. Hell, it's not even exclusive to D&D in particular, it's also been an issue for Elder Scrolls games in the past.

I also thought Everyone is rather chill when nothing else but a goddamn "DROW" suddenly enters the Camp, Grove, etc.

That was always kinda hilarious.
I am not sure how most People would react to "Gith", but if People are wary of Tieflings and always have Trashtalk at the ready for them, then i think it's only fair if People are also very wary of Drow. Compared to Drow, i think Tiefling-Folks are pretty harmless. They just look kinda devilish. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Hell yeah! I imagine if people in the Forgotten Realms universe were celebrate Halloween, most would be too afraid of the drows to dress up as them, but a lot of children (and perhaps adults) would dress up as tieflings. They're just too calm when they meet drow who have a very bad reputation after all, and even if there are good drow communities, most people probably only associate dark elves with the cruel followers of Lolth. It has always touched me as I read Drizzt's adventures how Drizzt has had to contend with the distrust and hostility of other races for being a drow. This created an amazing atmosphere, reminding that Drizzt was not a human, or even an ordinary surface elf, but a dark elf who had grown up in a society of cruel creatures with a terrible reputation. I'd love to experience something like that while playing, both as Lolth-Sworn Drow and Seladrine Drow. And maybe a little less, but still, I'd like to experience a similarly negative reaction as a half-drow.

They have 100 people on their design team.

Having one person on the team to correct the nagging little details that disrupt the overall montage would be WISE!

Stop repetitive dialogs (once is enough). Ambient noise should follow the traditional wisdom of not quite intelligible, with meme sounds (such as hammers in the smith area, or laughter at the tavern, ect).

Githyanki, should get a few reactions ("Did you see that!" or "A Githyanki!"), then the surprise should die out.

An immersive environment should react and then find balance again.

This is why I generally prefer less races in RPG's. They need to make sense or the game world loses credibility, which in turn waters down any story they are trying to tell in that setting.

When players ask for playable Goblins, Minotaurs, Vampires or whatever, the devs need to protect players from themselves. It's a huge undertaking to properly flesh out an entire race. If you can't do it right, you shouldn't do it at all.

No, we need more GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWBLINS. Vampires.......well I mean 'Points at one of the Origin Characters.' as for Minotaurs, why not?

It's because all of those races have all been playable in 5e, some for many years, people get used to having their favourites. In an actual pnp campaign the DM can make allowances for most things (unless there's a world lore reason, or you have a really restrictive DM, they do exist), but in a video game campaign it's simply not possible to code in specific reactions and allowances for every possible player race, because there are a lot of exotic and monstrous player races. It's too many variations for what is essentially a heavily railroaded campaign.

Larian is clearly taking the path of less effort, by just not coding extensive npc reactions to the more maligned or exotic race options we have available, and at this point, I'll be happy if we actually manage to get all the PHB options by launch, even if no one really reacts to a Drow or Gith character (because then it'll just be exactly like a dozen other dnd crpg games).

Just wanna add my two cents here. Considering that we can choose to go beyond lorefriendly color schemes in the character creation, npc's reaction to our race can get even more ridiculous. I do want to remember myself creating a fair skinned, red hair drow with green eyes. But ofc I got the drow remark when entering the grove. How?! How can you tell you miserable tiefling dimwitt! :P

What? The drow has arguably the most unique dialogue in the game. What's more, it's literally easy mode in any interaction with the goblins.

There is many Goblin skins ... i bet some moder will make it happen.

I've literally never played the other side of this game where you side with the goblins. And I would wager that neither have a majority of players. The Op of this thread seems to be talking specifically about the people in the grove and the mercenaries, so they probably haven't played that route either.

EDIT: I just remembered you can trick your way into the fort with the goblins, but there weren't that many conversations to be had, or maybe I was just too murdery to have conversations.

As for the grove, I don't remember all interactions, but there are certainly some of them.

In addition, you must add a large number of interactions with goblins, which are at least twice as many.
Overall, I think Larian did a great job with drows.
It's hard for me to recall another game that had so many unique dialogues for one race only.[spoiler][/spoiler]

My Character won't work without the reactions to being one.
His entire shtick is that he is a Neutral Good Paladin, but incredibly dour and sarcastic due to all the racism he's faced.

It will also pass a good message if you are playing, let's say a Drow, who is distrusted by the druids in the grove but still chose to help them so that, in the end, they recognise they were wrong about you and maybe should reconsider some notions they have.

SWTOR does this extremely well when you play an honourable ("good") sith. You can see the Jedi questioning their prejudice after witnessing your actions on multiple occasions.

It is possible. I don't know why it is not implemented in BG3 but it is genuinely possible.

In that case ...
I have nice place to burry your dream if you want ...

Bcs ... since world dont even react properly on Drows, i really doubt they would for Goblins.
Its true tho that if they would create proper rections for Goblins ... most of them would be useable for Drow aswell.

My main in that is a Light Side Sith Warrior (He's a Sith Pureblood for added insanity, because he's a contradiction and that tickled my funny bone immensely.).
Watching the various Jedis' head exploding in response (Or in some cases, slow Realization.) is hilarious.
Reactions like that are incredibly satisfying.

Hence why I want my Goblin Paladin.
I have the idea in my head and everything.

They are, aren't they?