Larian Studios
So, starting a new one. This one's purpose is to day that I feel like Larian, as my DM, punishes me for good role playing.

1. I don't search every container and body and push myself to hurry to find a cure for myself and my companions.

Punishment for good roleplaying: I miss out on finding cool books and gear because Im trying to escape a burning mind flayer ship blasting through the Hells. This holds true through the whole game. Rush to the gobbo camp or Gith creche, miss out on tons of stuff.

Solution? Auto search. Perception checks find good items instead of hunting for them through all the junk.

2. I don't end day frequently because Im racing against time to save myself and others.

Punishment for good roleplaying: I miss out on lots of character development and convos.

Solution? Untie rest and convos.

3. I don't use tadpole powers.

Punishment for good roleplaying: I don't meet the dream person at all.

Solution? Make it so that if I rest too much the dream person starts to appear. If I use tadpole powers, they appear faster.

My point: I feel like I am penalized more in BG3 for putting myself actually in the role of my character instead of being rewarded. Unless I casually and leisurely waltz around searching everything slowly, rest often, use tadpole powers and pretty much everything you shouldn't be doing with a tadpole in your head, I don't get all the cool things.

On the flip side, there are no punishments for bad role playing. Gobbos don't attack the grove even though they know where it is and not matter how long I take. Druids never kick people out of the grove. Etc.

So my suggestion is to reward good gaming and punish bad gaming.
How far have you played EA, because you learn relatively soon...
that there isn't actually as much a sense of urgency and why, when it comes to the tadpole.
Ive played through many times. I don't care what people say, you have a mind flayer tadpole in your head. That's urgent.

So let me get this straight, if you had a tadpole in your head and people telling you your flesh will shed off, youd casually stroll about searching every little crack?
I said this elsewhere earlier but it's more directly relevant to this thread, so:

I have always hated it when games punish me *FOR BUYING INTO* the (false) sense of urgency.
Games often present a negative consequence for actually treating the supposed emergency, urgent thing, or time sensitive task as such.

Ive played games where doing the time sensitive emergency first gets you the bad ending, becasue you're supposed to ignore it and do literally everything else first to get the good ending.
I've played games where doing the urgen tasks first leaves you underpowerd, as in underleveled and undergeared, because the game expected you to earn xp, money, and loot doing random tasks with no urgency at all first. Yes this woman's husband was kidnapped and is going to be executed any second now, leaving a child fatherless, but you need to pick all these flowers and clear the rats out of the basement first because level scaling.

And I've played games, like Baldurs Gate 3, where I'm mechanically punished for buying into the false urgency by being underpowered relative to the people who don't buy into it, because they get to go in with all resources replenished while I don't. Someone who made reaching Halsin drastically easier (and completly broke the balance of this DnD based game, which relies on rests as a huge balancing factor) by long resting after every set of goblins shouldn't get the same result as me, who fought my way there in one game day. Strictly speaking you can, and I did on my first character, get to Halsin without fighting by making the goblins think you're an ally, but for the sake of discussion this is fighting through with the cannon urgency vs fighting through ignoring it. If I have a more difficult set of encounters, fighting these goblins while strategicly using and/or running out of spell slots and entering fights below max hp, by doing it in one day, and another player has a bunch of easy af encounters because they spent a whole week taking naps before they reached him, then my Halsin should be like "wow you were quick" and their Halsin should be dead already.

And lastly I've played games, *primarily* Baldurs Gate 3, where I'm cannonically punished for acting on the cannonical urgency, by all this missed companion dialogue I'm not getting because I don't sleep for 8 hours every 5 minutes. Absolutely attrocius.

If the story is going to present urgency, actually have it, or at the very least don't punish players for pretending it's real.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ive played through many times. I don't care what people say, you have a mind flayer tadpole in your head. That's urgent.

So let me get this straight, if you had a tadpole in your head and people telling you your flesh will shed off, youd casually stroll about searching every little crack?

I agree with the OP, there should be a blend of storytelling and gameplay elements. ATM gameplay far outweighs the story, it would be nice if the player were punished for taking too long imo. Like when you get the bad ending smile. Or they could punish players for using the mindflayer powers too much, which could result in another bad ending where you turn into a mindflayer.

I think Act 1 should create urgency in the gameplay, you should sleep, maybe a maximum of 4 nights before the mindflayer worm gets you.

Perhaps Larian devs, you could create a difficulty that resembles this? Like a Role Playing difficulty, and you can have Classic as being non-punishing difficulty.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ive played through many times. I don't care what people say, you have a mind flayer tadpole in your head. That's urgent.

So let me get this straight, if you had a tadpole in your head and people telling you your flesh will shed off, youd casually stroll about searching every little crack?

And the story tells you quite clearly that the tadpole in your head is not "normal", and there are several other "True Souls" that you encounter in the game that have had tadpoles in their heads for much longer than you, who have not succumbed to cremorphosis. So that should tell you that the sense of impending doom that is portrayed in the first few minutes of the game, is somewhat overblown.

Did you actually complete Omeluum's quest?
You're told it isn't "normal" but you're also told by everyone that takes a look that they really have no idea what's going on, when/if it could trigger or how screwed you are. Every time you use the thing you get warnings of damage being caused and as for the the "true souls", they're sleepers and you have no knowledge of when or how they could be triggered. Cyberpunk, for a recent example, has this same issue where you're told you're pretty well screwed but then you run can run around picking daisies for months with 0 consequences.
Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ive played through many times. I don't care what people say, you have a mind flayer tadpole in your head. That's urgent.

So let me get this straight, if you had a tadpole in your head and people telling you your flesh will shed off, youd casually stroll about searching every little crack?

And the story tells you quite clearly that the tadpole in your head is not "normal", and there are several other "True Souls" that you encounter in the game that have had tadpoles in their heads for much longer than you, who have not succumbed to cremorphosis. So that should tell you that the sense of impending doom that is portrayed in the first few minutes of the game, is somewhat overblown.

Did you actually complete Omeluum's quest?

The motive behind the magic on the tadpole also creates anxiety and urgency. Unless you want to role play as an ignoramus.
1. I don't know if auto search would be the best, but searching a group of containers rather than individual ones would make it better I think.
2. Agreed
3. I think we will find more about the dream person in later acts, perhaps they will appear even without tadpole use then. Honestly I think this part is lame anyway for reasons that have nothing to do with this post.
I am pretty sure there will be negatives from using the tadpole later on in the game and not using it will probably be rewarded.

Originally Posted by The Old Soul
And lastly I've played games, *primarily* Baldurs Gate 3, where I'm cannonically punished for acting on the cannonical urgency, by all this missed companion dialogue I'm not getting because I don't sleep for 8 hours every 5 minutes. Absolutely attrocius.
The sad part of this is that they seem to expect everyone to know this, or expect everyone to be lazy and have everything refreshed for each fight. Those of us who treat the game a bit more like DnD get screwed badly for doing more than one fight per rest. I had to force myself to rest more often in my last playthrough and because I did the goblin encampment interior as one encounter, I think I still missed out on dialogue even though I rested pointlessly after every fight before this. It feels unnatural and unimmersive.

Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ive played through many times. I don't care what people say, you have a mind flayer tadpole in your head. That's urgent.

So let me get this straight, if you had a tadpole in your head and people telling you your flesh will shed off, youd casually stroll about searching every little crack?

And the story tells you quite clearly that the tadpole in your head is not "normal", and there are several other "True Souls" that you encounter in the game that have had tadpoles in their heads for much longer than you, who have not succumbed to cremorphosis. So that should tell you that the sense of impending doom that is portrayed in the first few minutes of the game, is somewhat overblown.
I have said in another thread that they probably should add some sort of dialogue saying that it is impossible to remove the tadpole (this can be true or not, we would find out later.) Otherwise nearly all of my characters would find an unwelcome parasite added into the body against their will to be something that needs to be removed as soon as possible, they would not care one bit about anything else.
Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ive played through many times. I don't care what people say, you have a mind flayer tadpole in your head. That's urgent.

So let me get this straight, if you had a tadpole in your head and people telling you your flesh will shed off, youd casually stroll about searching every little crack?

And the story tells you quite clearly that the tadpole in your head is not "normal", and there are several other "True Souls" that you encounter in the game that have had tadpoles in their heads for much longer than you, who have not succumbed to cremorphosis. So that should tell you that the sense of impending doom that is portrayed in the first few minutes of the game, is somewhat overblown.

Did you actually complete Omeluum's quest?
Omeluum is a LONG way into the game. And he's the only person that says anything to suggest with any viability that you don't need to worry about turning if you take to long. Other people say it's happening slower, but that doesn't mean anything. At any point the next hour could still be the hour it happens. No matter how many days have passed already, the next night is still liable to be the one where you turn. Only the line where "it's not happening at all" matters.

By all logic, with what is currently in the game, the PC and companions should not willingly take a long rest until after they stumble on Omeluum, and he examines you.
And since you have no foreknowledge he's hangin around in the Underdark, there's no basis for seeking him out.
Which would mean the first time it makes sense to long rest, after meeting him, would be:
-after saving the Grove from the initial goblin attack, since that happens in your face and in your way.
-after saving the Grove in the larger sense by saving Halsin, because there was an alleged chance he could help you.
-after dealing with all the Goblin leaders to help the tiefling refugees, because that's in the same place as Halsin, and you need to help them before the ritual completes.
-after seeking help from the Gith patrol [which is hands down the first thing you should as soon as you get Lae'Zel out of the cage. Doing anything other than going from the cage, to the dude in the grove, to the patrol, all in one, is cannonically ridiculous. The devs should expect players to be meeting the patrol at level 1 or 2, so it's outright ridiculous that they, of all people, are level 5.]
-and after any of the many things on the surface you encounter on your way to and from all of that before finding an underdark entrance

Meanwhile some players have let two months pass before meeting Omeluum and learning the tadpole isn't as time sensitive as they thought because they go to sleep every 30 seconds after getting papercuts.
Originally Posted by The Old Soul
Omeluum is a LONG way into the game. And he's the only person that says anything to suggest with any viability that you don't need to worry about turning if you take to long. Other people say it's happening slower, but that doesn't mean anything. At any point the next hour could still be the hour it happens. No matter how many days have passed already, the next night is still liable to be the one where you turn. Only the line where "it's not happening at all" matters.
Omellum is the only one that spells out the "how", but Raphael also implies that you are not in immediate danger of turning until a specific point (and he will be there to offer his deal then). And he sounds like he knows more about the situation than Omellum.
Originally Posted by The Old Soul
Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ive played through many times. I don't care what people say, you have a mind flayer tadpole in your head. That's urgent.

So let me get this straight, if you had a tadpole in your head and people telling you your flesh will shed off, youd casually stroll about searching every little crack?

And the story tells you quite clearly that the tadpole in your head is not "normal", and there are several other "True Souls" that you encounter in the game that have had tadpoles in their heads for much longer than you, who have not succumbed to cremorphosis. So that should tell you that the sense of impending doom that is portrayed in the first few minutes of the game, is somewhat overblown.

Did you actually complete Omeluum's quest?
Omeluum is a LONG way into the game. And he's the only person that says anything to suggest with any viability that you don't need to worry about turning if you take to long. Other people say it's happening slower, but that doesn't mean anything. At any point the next hour could still be the hour it happens. No matter how many days have passed already, the next night is still liable to be the one where you turn. Only the line where "it's not happening at all" matters.

By all logic, with what is currently in the game, the PC and companions should not willingly take a long rest until after they stumble on Omeluum, and he examines you.
And since you have no foreknowledge he's hangin around in the Underdark, there's no basis for seeking him out.
Which would mean the first time it makes sense to long rest, after meeting him, would be:
-after saving the Grove from the initial goblin attack, since that happens in your face and in your way.
-after saving the Grove in the larger sense by saving Halsin, because there was an alleged chance he could help you.
-after dealing with all the Goblin leaders to help the tiefling refugees, because that's in the same place as Halsin, and you need to help them before the ritual completes.
-after seeking help from the Gith patrol [which is hands down the first thing you should as soon as you get Lae'Zel out of the cage. Doing anything other than going from the cage, to the dude in the grove, to the patrol, all in one, is cannonically ridiculous. The devs should expect players to be meeting the patrol at level 1 or 2, so it's outright ridiculous that they, of all people, are level 5.]
-and after any of the many things on the surface you encounter on your way to and from all of that before finding an underdark entrance

Meanwhile some players have let two months pass before meeting Omeluum and learning the tadpole isn't as time sensitive as they thought because they go to sleep every 30 seconds after getting papercuts.

Once you go to the grove...

You encounter Nettie who tells you about the Drow, who also didn't change, and had a tadpole exit his body after death. Then you come across the dying dwarf, whose tadpole didn't change him even in lieu of him being wounded to the point of death. If those aren't the first clues that ceremorphosis is not so imminent of a threat as you suspected, then I don't know what is.

Of course you want it out of your head, but the necessity to do it as quickly as possible, starts to be removed from that point forward.
Even after hearing from Omeluum that transformation isn't imminent, I would still be prioritizing getting the alien worm out of my head over everything else.

Also, if their plan is to say "Hurry, hurry, hurry!" and then quickly 180 into "Everything's fine, probably." then that's a huge letdown as far as storytelling. They've taken away my character's primary motivation 5-10% into the game.
Originally Posted by grysqrl
Even after hearing from Omeluum that transformation isn't imminent, I would still be prioritizing getting the alien worm out of my head over everything else.

Also, if their plan is to say "Hurry, hurry, hurry!" and then quickly 180 into "Everything's fine, probably." then that's a huge letdown as far as storytelling. They've taken away my character's primary motivation 5-10% into the game.

I think your response would depend highly on what type of character you are playing. Astarion hints in early conversation that he wants to harness it's power rather than get rid of it, and if I recall correctly you can agree with him.
Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
Once you go to the grove...

You encounter Nettie who tells you about the Drow, who also didn't change, and had a tadpole exit his body after death. Then you come across the dying dwarf, whose tadpole didn't change him even in lieu of him being wounded to the point of death. If those aren't the first clues that ceremorphosis is not so imminent of a threat as you suspected, then I don't know what is.

Of course you want it out of your head, but the necessity to do it as quickly as possible, starts to be removed from that point forward.

Those are only clues to suggest the process is slowed, and that that's weird. Which is irrelevant. As I already said, only the conclusive statement that the process is *STOPPED*, not slowed, stopped, matters at all.
The process having been slowed only serves to say "you're lucky to have not turned yet, but you still need to devote 999% of yourself to being cured this hour so you don't turn next hour."
You should have turned earlier, but since it was slowed, you're about to turn right now instead. There is still no basis for toning down the rush until you know for certain there's no deadline at all.
Getting it out as quickly as possible is fully a necessity until you know about the Stasis.
Sure, my character's responses will be all over the place. As a player, I feel let down by how hard they sell the danger and the urgency (most of the companions make a point about how important speed is) and then how quickly they back off of it.
Just remembered another aspect of this.
Those Illthyd dialogue choices that only work once per long rest.
The player that rests every 30 seconds can do every single one, if they like.
The player that rests when it's actually reasonable to rest again will miss several, if not every single one, regardless of whether or not they would want to use them.
Yes, because that's how RPGs normally work, and if tentacles do just suddenly burst out of your head, you start up a new game. Or just enjoy being a Mind Flayer.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
2. I don't end day frequently because Im racing against time to save myself and others.

Punishment for good roleplaying: I miss out on lots of character development and convos.

Solution? Untie rest and convos.

3. I don't use tadpole powers.

Punishment for good roleplaying: I don't meet the dream person at all.
I agree on untying the companion dialogues from camping. Companions will chat with each other while walking down the road, but the main character is playing the camp counselor for no reason. Many of the camp interactions could have happened while travelling.

With tadpole powers however I suspect that is the point; unless you use the powers, the absolute cannot get enough of a foothold in your mind to project the dream lover.
1) Agreed. Making us search every container is the same bs as pixelhunting for a spot on enemie body that you can shoot without being blocked by ceiling. In a d20 rpg those actions should be represented by character skills - not player actions.
2) Either unite from camp or do as Dragon Age did it. Stack conversations and play them in order when you do go to camp.
3) I think this plot line should be tied to number of long rests, with usage of tadpole powers accelerating the process.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
So, starting a new one. This one's purpose is to day that I feel like Larian, as my DM, punishes me for good role playing.

1. I don't search every container and body and push myself to hurry to find a cure for myself and my companions.

Punishment for good roleplaying: I miss out on finding cool books and gear because Im trying to escape a burning mind flayer ship blasting through the Hells. This holds true through the whole game. Rush to the gobbo camp or Gith creche, miss out on tons of stuff.

Solution? Auto search. Perception checks find good items instead of hunting for them through all the junk.

2. I don't end day frequently because Im racing against time to save myself and others.

Punishment for good roleplaying: I miss out on lots of character development and convos.

Solution? Untie rest and convos.

3. I don't use tadpole powers.

Punishment for good roleplaying: I don't meet the dream person at all.

Solution? Make it so that if I rest too much the dream person starts to appear. If I use tadpole powers, they appear faster.

My point: I feel like I am penalized more in BG3 for putting myself actually in the role of my character instead of being rewarded. Unless I casually and leisurely waltz around searching everything slowly, rest often, use tadpole powers and pretty much everything you shouldn't be doing with a tadpole in your head, I don't get all the cool things.

On the flip side, there are no punishments for bad role playing. Gobbos don't attack the grove even though they know where it is and not matter how long I take. Druids never kick people out of the grove. Etc.

So my suggestion is to reward good gaming and punish bad gaming.


Yes! Great points!! laugh
Did you watch the opening? If that happened to me, and people described what's supposed to happen as flesh turning to gore and face splitting open, I would NOT be casually exploring the world. Id be rushing like crazy to find a cure, and my sleep would be MESSED up. I would have a hard time resting, not resting every 10 minutes of gameplay just so I can trigger all the character development.

The fact that people keep saying that they were told it's not urgent makes my point for me. They can say that you should not be rushed because there is no sense of real urgency in the game. There's no consequences for chilling and gibing other than being nagged by some people who even tell you that's nobody knows what is really happening. THEY DON'T KNOW.

Im sorry, if this was RL, I don't think a single person would be stopping to search every little container in the game. They'd be moving their butts, working as fast as possible to find a cure.

That is why, in other posts, I suggested 2 long rests a day. In D&D a long rest is 8 hours. Not 20. It least 2 long rests a day gives players the ability to rest twice in 1 day, recover spells and HP. This would slow down how much time you are actually expending by resting and recovering. So 2 long rests = 1 day, 6 = 3 days. Thus, after 6 long rests, gobbos attack the grove or something.

Now I'd like night play, but if they don't do that because it's too hard, fine. I can rise with the dawn, adventure for an hour or two, long rest 8, adventure and hour or two and long rest 8 with a few 1 hour short rests in there to equal 24 hours. I can even say I did all my adventuring during the day. But this way, at least, im not playing for 10 minutes, resting 24 hours, playing for 20 minutes, resting for 1 hour, playing for 5 minutes, resting 24...it makes no sense to me.

But, again, the point is reward me for pushing myself and challenging my character's. Give me more dialogue, better equipment, etc. for good gameplay, for staying true to the story. That is how D&D is supposed to be played. You don't reward players for trailing off on side quests and completely ignoring the urgency of the main quest. Good DM's are supposed to reward good role playing. They don't punish them for it.

The pace if this game would only be helped by consequences for playing the game casually. You take too long, people die. That's real life. That's how D&D is meant to be.
The loot is a whole separate issue of its own. There's simply way too much. Too many containers you can interact with, vast majority of them empty. Too much trash loot like spoons and plates when there actually is something.

Can we please filter out 95% of the empty containers and worthless loot so the player doesn't have to deal with them?
No. Not separate. It's about pacing of the game and rewarding players for taking it slow. Give me a fast way to search for good gear. That speeds up the pace and keeps it moving and exciting.

Right now, it's like I'm punished if I don't take it slow and painfully search every little thing because I've found cool stuff just about every playthrough that I missed before because I still didn't slow down enough.

I don't mind missing stuff if I fail a roll. That's my PC just missing something. I don't like missing something because I didn't hover just right over it.

Gives me a Perception check for all good items. If I succeed, my characters find stuff. I pick it up. Game moves on.
About searching everything... I think they sould make the search like it is in DOS2: if you press and hold the action button you will search everything inside the range of your character.
I'm pretty pretty sure they will implement something like that on next updates or on full release.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Did you watch the opening? If that happened to me, and people described what's supposed to happen as flesh turning to gore and face splitting open, I would NOT be casually exploring the world. Id be rushing like crazy to find a cure, and my sleep would be MESSED up. I would have a hard time resting, not resting every 10 minutes of gameplay just so I can trigger all the character development.

The fact that people keep saying that they were told it's not urgent makes my point for me. They can say that you should not be rushed because there is no sense of real urgency in the game. There's no consequences for chilling and gibing other than being nagged by some people who even tell you that's nobody knows what is really happening. THEY DON'T KNOW.

Im sorry, if this was RL, I don't think a single person would be stopping to search every little container in the game. They'd be moving their butts, working as fast as possible to find a cure.
Not really. If the situation above was in any way similar to real life, I think most people would choose to spend their last days with their loved ones, because the possibility of them miraculously finding a cure to an unknown deadly disease is close to zero. Most people aren't genius scientists or doctors.

That is why comparisons to real life will only get you so far. Fantasy adventures tend to have unrealistic premises, because they tell the stories of great heroes and villains. So of course you assume your character will find a cure, because they are the main character starring in an epic fantasy saga, and not the fantasy equivalent of the sims.

The issue is that in BG3 the narrative is tied down to mechanics that clearly favour the players who spam rest, and for no good reason. This limits the roleplaying opportunities, because the only consequence of not resting is losing game content. That was how BG2 build it's narrative too, and frankly one of the areas where Larian should improve, not follow the example of the predecessor.
Originally Posted by The Old Soul
Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
Once you go to the grove...

You encounter Nettie who tells you about the Drow, who also didn't change, and had a tadpole exit his body after death. Then you come across the dying dwarf, whose tadpole didn't change him even in lieu of him being wounded to the point of death. If those aren't the first clues that ceremorphosis is not so imminent of a threat as you suspected, then I don't know what is.

Of course you want it out of your head, but the necessity to do it as quickly as possible, starts to be removed from that point forward.

Those are only clues to suggest the process is slowed, and that that's weird. Which is irrelevant. As I already said, only the conclusive statement that the process is *STOPPED*, not slowed, stopped, matters at all.
The process having been slowed only serves to say "you're lucky to have not turned yet, but you still need to devote 999% of yourself to being cured this hour so you don't turn next hour."
You should have turned earlier, but since it was slowed, you're about to turn right now instead. There is still no basis for toning down the rush until you know for certain there's no deadline at all.
Getting it out as quickly as possible is fully a necessity until you know about the Stasis.

Except right from the beginning, you start getting clues that the dire "OMFG IMMA TURN INTO A MINDFLAYER BY TOMORROW" scenario, isn't as pressing as you and your companions thought, and that sentiment only gets stronger, the longer you play. If you want to roleplay ignorance, that's fine, but the game is giving you clue after clue about the fact that your situation is not nearly as dire, from a time perspective, as it seemed on the nautiloid.
True you get clues from the beginning that things aren't so dire, but what kind of person would be aware that they are at risk of turning into a horrific monster at some unstated point in the future and not make stopping that their primary goal? Like, sure we see that a bunch of other people have been infected with tadpoles and haven't changed after a pretty long while, and some people would take that as permission to slow down, but we don't have a clear sense of how long the True Souls have been a thing or if it's guaranteed that you're not going to change earlier than they will. You have the equivalent of a ticking time bomb in your brain and you don't have a clear estimation on how long you personally have, that's not all that comforting. When you use your tadpole powers you are even told that your character feels themselves losing something they can never get back. It's still perfectly rational to try and hurry to find a solution.
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
True you get clues from the beginning that things aren't so dire, but what kind of person would be aware that they are at risk of turning into a horrific monster at some unstated point in the future and not make stopping that their primary goal? Like, sure we see that a bunch of other people have been infected with tadpoles and haven't changed after a pretty long while, and some people would take that as permission to slow down, but we don't have a clear sense of how long the True Souls have been a thing or if it's guaranteed that you're not going to change earlier than they will. You have the equivalent of a ticking time bomb in your brain and you don't have a clear estimation on how long you personally have, that's not all that comforting. When you use your tadpole powers you are even told that your character feels themselves losing something they can never get back. It's still perfectly rational to try and hurry to find a solution.

You don't at the beginning, but you come across two unchanged people who have died with tadpoles in them very quickly, and then you come across several living people with tadpoles in them, and you know they have had them for more than a few days at the very least, because of the events that you've already been told about. So again, it's not like you stop the quest for getting it removed, it's just that you no longer have the sense of "if I don't find a cure before I camp I'm going to change into a mindflayer".
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I get what you're saying Grudge, but overall still makes no sense. Let's take a real life scenario that is similar.

You know you have cancer. It is going to kill you. You don't know when. You hear someone might have a cure, and they aren't that for away. You might have to take a risk to meet him and get that cure. Add to this that others are counting on you. If you don't move you butt, in a few days they are ALL going to die.

Are you going to hurry your butt up to find that healer and save those people in time, knowing if you fail you were likely going to die anyway, or are you going to sit back and chill because someone told you that's your cancer won't take hold for months? I mean, your best chance of a cure could die at any moment, so are you going to rest for days or move your booty to save that chance?

The only two plausible scenarios in early access that I accept as legit side quests are the Hag and the Githyanki creche because they are potential cures as well. Still, the point is that endless resting should have consequences, events that urge players to move faster and rest less. Tieflings report goblins preparing their invasion, the druid's stating the ritual will be ready in another day or 2, and then actually making these things happen if the player takes too long.

Either way, the point, again, is that excitement is utterly lost because there is no consequences to casually playing, and it makes no real sense. Again, we are rewarded for slowly moving through the game as opposed to challenging ourselves. That is not good RPGing.

From the very beginning, they start to dial down the urgency, with Astarion even proposing to harness the power of the tadpole in your first conversation with him. I'm not arguing the severity of having the thing in your head, but the game itself immediately starts to reduce the importance of remedying the issue ASAP. If you choose to roleplay that aspect, at that point, it's on you since the game itself is not driving that narrative as you progress in the game; the opposite actually.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
So, starting a new one. This one's purpose is to day that I feel like Larian, as my DM, punishes me for good role playing.

1. I don't search every container and body and push myself to hurry to find a cure for myself and my companions.

Punishment for good roleplaying: I miss out on finding cool books and gear because Im trying to escape a burning mind flayer ship blasting through the Hells. This holds true through the whole game. Rush to the gobbo camp or Gith creche, miss out on tons of stuff.

Solution? Auto search. Perception checks find good items instead of hunting for them through all the junk.

This just comes off as a excuse to have auto search. Did you bring this up in another thread and get shut down? If your roleplaying a character how would your character be able to auto search containers if your in a rush? No you can't, if you are trying to punish yourself that's all you pal.
Originally Posted by The Old Soul
Just remembered another aspect of this.
Those Illthyd dialogue choices that only work once per long rest.
The player that rests every 30 seconds can do every single one, if they like.
The player that rests when it's actually reasonable to rest again will miss several, if not every single one, regardless of whether or not they would want to use them.

Not quite that bad if you're willing to let your companions take the lead on some convos. They all have tadpoles too and can each do the "I'm a True Soul" thing once a day. So you could get in four of those between long rests if you played it right. More if you took trips to camp to swap in whoever is hanging out there.
Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I get what you're saying Grudge, but overall still makes no sense. Let's take a real life scenario that is similar.

You know you have cancer. It is going to kill you. You don't know when. You hear someone might have a cure, and they aren't that for away. You might have to take a risk to meet him and get that cure. Add to this that others are counting on you. If you don't move you butt, in a few days they are ALL going to die.

Are you going to hurry your butt up to find that healer and save those people in time, knowing if you fail you were likely going to die anyway, or are you going to sit back and chill because someone told you that's your cancer won't take hold for months? I mean, your best chance of a cure could die at any moment, so are you going to rest for days or move your booty to save that chance?

The only two plausible scenarios in early access that I accept as legit side quests are the Hag and the Githyanki creche because they are potential cures as well. Still, the point is that endless resting should have consequences, events that urge players to move faster and rest less. Tieflings report goblins preparing their invasion, the druid's stating the ritual will be ready in another day or 2, and then actually making these things happen if the player takes too long.

Either way, the point, again, is that excitement is utterly lost because there is no consequences to casually playing, and it makes no real sense. Again, we are rewarded for slowly moving through the game as opposed to challenging ourselves. That is not good RPGing.

From the very beginning, they start to dial down the urgency, with Astarion even proposing to harness the power of the tadpole in your first conversation with him. I'm not arguing the severity of having the thing in your head, but the game itself immediately starts to reduce the importance of remedying the issue ASAP. If you choose to roleplay that aspect, at that point, it's on you since the game itself is not driving that narrative as you progress in the game; the opposite actually.

That's kind of what the OP is saying; the game actively punishes you in several ways for taking the ticking clock it established vividly right at the beginning seriously. It sets up a very fast-moving ticking clock, tells you that the ticking clock isn't ticking as fast as you thought (though at no point does it tell you it's actually stopped ticking, it's just ticking more slowly by some unknown degree) and then if you try to RP the reasonable reaction a person would have to that of making fixing the problem their top priority, setting everything else aside for later, then you get punished for it.That's bad narrative design. It's also bad narrative design to establish such an urgent ticking clock and then immediately undermine that urgency. The game should lead by telling you that the tadpole SHOULD have transformed you, but it hasn't and there's no telling why or how long you have. So the player is introduced to the narrative time constraint in a manner that reflects the actual level of urgency at play in the narrative, rather than the game setting up one expectation and then immediately laying things out in a way that fights against the emotion they inspired in the player. On my first playthrough for instance, I did not pick up the clues about the tadpole not being super urgent until a fair while into things, so I spent long stretches really strapped for resources and having a very hard time, as well as skipping most story content to try and get to the Githyanki patrol, which ended with me getting TPKed.

Also on that subject, it really frustrates me how they presented the Gith patrol questline. It is one of the first pieces of clear information given to you, literally by the first person you meet in the game, who is also the first companion you get in the game. It's the first concrete lead you're given to a solution for the inciting incident of the plot, AND it's given to you by the character that gives you most of your early information on what's happening to you. It's also one of the only leads or pieces of information in general that you basically always get no matter what you do. It really FEELS like that's meant to be the main quest, right? It's given so much weight and it's presented so definitelly and clearly, while with every other possible solution you're kind of left to infer that it's worth doing. I mean in theory you could miss the druid grove and until they tell you about Halsin it seems totally extraneous to what's going on with you. I assumed that the druid grove was just an optional side quest when I first ran into it, not the main quest of the zone. It is really bizarre and this game just does not seem to know how to present information to you well a lot of the time.
And that is exactly my point. If you want the game to go from good to EXCELLENT, you need to drive the narrative. You need to reward players for driving harder and challenging themselves, not the opposite. The game, right now, rewards me more if I don't drive towards the goal. If I carefully move around the map, searching every pixel, I find better weapons, armor, magic items, books, tomes, etc. that give me more context and story. If I rest a lot, I get more dialogue and character development.

I'm saying that Larian needs to do the opposite to make the game an incredible experience. Drive players to the helm of the mind flayer ship.

MAJOR SPOILERS!!!

This is how the game should be to make it a fully exciting and incredibly intense experience instead of just a nice, casual game:

I wake up after escaping the pod. I realize there's nothing around me to endanger me at least in the immediate future. However, I can hear combat outside. Everything is on fire. My heart is pounding. Now's my chance to escape if I seize the opportunity. I glance around the room. (Hidden Perception check. I succeed in rolling a 14, though the game doesn't tell me this. All items nearby that have a difficulty of 14 or lower are highlighted that are of any worth at all. Items like spoons, knives, forks, plates, food are not highlighted. Basically, my character is just looking for weapons and armor and anything that might help them escape like potions and explosive items.) I rush to these highlighted objects and grab them and bolt for the door. I don't waste any additional time trying to search every nook and cranny because the room is on fire and the mind flayers could return at any moment.

But let's say someone starts to actually search the room through all the other stuff Larian has planted around the room. Suddenly, the wall explodes and a mind flayer comes crashing into the room. He's not dead. Demons also drop in, battling with the mind flayer. One of them starts moving in my direction but doesn't quite reach me. The game instructs me that fleeing is a thing, using Tutorial to indicate that you should not fight this battle. You aren't going to win. So you hit the flee button and leave the room.

You're in the next room. Another hidden Perception check. You roll a 9. Only items with 9 or lower difficulty are highlighted and only if they are weapons or equipment that can be useful to escape or are story items, etc. I grab them and hear, "We are hear. We are trapped. Help us!" So naturally I go to try to see if I can help someone else escape, because I'm a good character in this playthrough. So I rush to the devourer and interact with it. Another Perception check. The two boxes nearby are highlighted. Something good inside that might be worth a look. I rush to them and grab them. I drop back down and start to explore more of the items in the room. Larian allows this for only a few minutes. Then, all of a sudden, the door from the chamber you had just been in is opened, and demons enter the chamber. At this point, you can either fight and die or run again out the flaming doorway to escape the inside of the ship. An explosion as you exit seals off the passage behind you. At least for now you've escaped from the demons.

You reach Lae'zel and fight the imps and reach the top of the ship. You start to explore. Boom! A dragon lands on the deck near you and begins to battle the imps and thralls on the ship. Now, you can either hang around and search bodies or bolt. If you hang around, again Larian gives you maybe a moment or two, but if you don't move your butt the dragon suddenly shoots flames near you. Enough to give you a warning. Get your butt in gear or you're going to be dragonfodder. You race to the next level up to escape the raging dragon. You get into the area where Shadowheart is.

This scene, I would expect Larian to allow more time to interact and explore. You are trying to save Shadowheart and so forth. Therefore, allow players maybe 5 minutes before, again, something like imps in greater numbers appear to attack you. After all, Lae'zel already warns you to leave Shadowheart because you are going to die if you don't, so why not make it so that if you don't just leave her you will actually potentially die? Wouldn't that make the situation more intense and exciting? If you explore around for more than a few minutes you might get attacked by even greater numbers of enemies?

So you flee again and dart into the next chamber. Let's add a small cutscene where Lae'zel does something to seal the entrance behind you, thus keeping out the imps that were chasing you. You heal and rush into the helm. Then the helm scene plays out like it does now, because they've already got something like this in place where demons show up if you're taking too long.

Finally, you are on the beach, and a new day has started. Here, you might take a bit more time to adjust to your environment and explore a bit. This is natural and makes sense. Here you might pick up items you think you might need for the future including fish that might spoil soon. You just escaped from the Hells. You're freaking out because you're infected with a mind flayer parasite and are told you might turn into one. So you would naturally want to hunt for supplies that might help you survive as long as possible. You meet Shadowheart and fight devourers.

Now, at this point, the game suggests and teaches you about long rests. That's fine except that at this point the game should warn you that long resting has consequences. Time progresses from day to night whenever you long rest, and certain events are time sensitive. So only use long rest when necessary.

Right there, now I know that if I long rest things could go really bad for me. I realize I'm half dead, so I only short rest. That makes logical sense to be able to do every 8 hours without explaining to people that an hour just went by. We don't need time to be that sensitive that if you short rest you'll miss something. So I short rest and move on. Still Day 1. I meet Astarion, Gale and reach the Dank Crypt. I convince the mercs outside to leave me alone and I make my way inside. After fighting Marli and Barton and the gang, I am now almost dead again and have expended all my spell slots. Hmmm. Long rest seems reasonable now. So I rest for 8 hours just inside the Dank Crypt.

I have no problem with the mechanic that you just teleport to the mysterious camp that has no real place on the map. All it means is that the adventurers wandered about searching for a campsite to call their own and it took some time to find and they finally found it. Great. You have a campfire scene and trigger the first camp dialogues. Larian allows you to trigger all the dialogues that should have been triggered up until this point so that you get the Gale Mirror Image dialogue and Shadowheart's I'm not sure this is such a good idea dialogue. These make sense at the first camp. I rest. 8 hours goes by. Let's say they don't even change it to night. Big deal. Only 8 hours went by, so it could still be daylight out. I'm good with that. However, the point is that it is still Day 1.

So I complete the Dank Crypt after my first long rest of 8 hours. I short rest. Still doing good. I meet Lae'zel and fight the goblin fight outside the Druid's Grove. With them defeated, I maybe short rest, move about the grove, talk to a bunch of people, fight some harpies, etc. I long rest again. Now the first day ends and I have my second set of campside dialogues. Gale tells me to Go to Hell, etc. Because I even went through the Druid's Grove, I trigger Raphael too. How exciting! All that happened in just 1 day. Day 1 is now complete and I didn't even miss out on any dialogue. Along the way, I found all sorts of useful things with my hidden Perception rolls not slowing the game down by manually searching every little crack and barrel. I could have explored manually more deeply if I really wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything, but that is my gamer's choice at this point. I have no problem with that kind of thing if that's what a gamer wants to do and the story isn't driving you to rush so much that you can't search things. I could see people taking their time through the Dank Crypt searching all the nooks and crannies searching for diamonds in the rough that could even potentially help you with your situation.

Day 2 begins. I explore outside the Grove. I meet Ed and his siblings, Scratch, and wander my way into Blighted Village. Oh man! The battle with the goblins has left me almost dead with no spells. I need to long rest. 8 hours later, I'm back in Blighted Village exploring around. I meet more goblins and need a short rest after. Still good with this. I explore some more, find the spider's lair, and curiosity gets the better of me. Halfway through, I'm nearly dead. I didn't even reach the matriarch. I need another long rest. Dang! Day 2 is over now. Astarion tries to bite me in the night. I find out he's a vampire. Dang! Incredible discovery for Day 2. Back to the spiders' lair. I fight the boss fight. Almost die. Dang! I need to long rest again and do so. 8 hours go by. Still Day 3. I head south into the bog and meet the hag. I discover she's a hag and that someone is in trouble. I can't help myself. I have to do something to save Mayrina.

Now, here again, timing should come into play. I fight the Red Caps and defeat them. I should now have a limited time to get my butt down into the hag's lair to save Mayrina or it is too late. This should be like a Final Fantasy 7 prologue moment. I have thirty minutes on the clock to get my butt into her lair and fight her or Mayrina is shipped off to Hag's school in Baldur's Gate, or whatever. I might spend some of that time looking for lotions and potions I might need to recover from the Red Cap fight and the future fight against the adventurers that are being controlled by the hag, and maybe one of those potions could give me spell slot recovery so I can fully replenish my characters for the really nasty hag fight that is to come. Instead of making us do something like rest 8 hours before we do the final hag fight, which is totally unbelievable, let me find a set of 4 potions that gives my characters full health and spell slots back. Man! That hag can work miracles!

I fight the hag, she nearly wipes me out completely. We barely beat her, like I did in the first playthrough, with only 1 person left on their feet and by shoving the real hag into a bottomless pit. Now I need another long rest for sure after finishing with Mayrina. Man! That was intense and I barely made it. So I long rest. End of Day 3.

That night, at camp, a Tiefling is sent to me by Zevlor. "Goblins have been seen at their camps gearing up for an invasion. We suspect it may only be another day or two before they attack us. The druid's have said that they will give us until the goblins begin to march towards the grove before they are going to complete the ritual. Please do something before it's too late." My character then thinks in game, "Dang! I've wasted too much time already. I need to hurry if I'm going to save the grove." I, the player, am now cued in that I need to get back to the original main quest before it is too late. The next morning, I explore the rest of the swamp, just because I can't help myself, I find Kahga's deception and bring it back to the grove. Good gameplay! Now, I've dethroned Kahga and spared the Tieflings from at least getting kicked out of the grove when the goblins show up, if I don't make it in time to kill the leaders.

However, I'm also back to needing a long rest to recover. So 8 hours goes by. I move on towards the goblin camp. Ah, but during camp during that long rest Lae'zel approaches me. "You're wasting too much time. We know where the creche is. If you don't take me to the creche today, I'm going to leave your party." Now you have a tough choice. Either get your butt to the Githyanki before you long rest again or you'll lose Lae'zel forever as a party member. I hurry north instead of towards the gobbo camp. Lae'zel, I decide, is more important to keep around and I still have a few more days to get to the gobbos. I head north and west, encounter the Flaming Fists and Zhents. Oh crap! I need another long rest. I don't want to lose Lae'zel. So I risk it to get to the Gith just using potions and short rests to heal. I have no spell slots anymore, but at least I'm full health.

I reach the Githyanki, they betray us. 3 out of the 4 party members die, but 1 escapes back to camp using the flee feature. Well, now I have to spend money on the currently useless lich guy in order to resurrect my fellow party members. Now the lich guy has more value in the game. I don't have enough gold. Oh well, guess I can only resurrect 1. Let's say Astarion and Wyll and Lae'zel all died in the encounter. Guess I'll resurrect Lae'zel and just add Gale and Shadowheart to the party. Later I can resurrect the other two, but I'll need more gold for that.

Now I can rest another 8 hours, but if I do I will never get the item I need to find the Githyanki creche. Dang! Another tough choice. If I sleep, the Gith will be long gone by then. If I hurry back to the spot, I can still fight them and maybe kill them and get the item. Decisions! Decisions!

I go back, fight them, get the creche location and I'm golden. Now I can sell items, get enough money and resurrect Astarion and Wyll. Long rest means another day is gone, but at least I keep Lae'zel. End of Day 4. Back on the road, I spot the dead bodies and I've agreed to help the Zhents so I go looking for their shipment. I battle gnolls and Tyrites to save the Tiefling hunter. I need another long rest. 8 hours. Half of Day 5 is almost over already. At camp, Wyll approaches. He's angry. "Why do we keep wasting our time when the goblins are about to attack the grove and kill all the tieflings? If you don't get to the goblin camp tonight, I'm leaving the party and will try to do it myself." So again, I know that I need to beat the goblin camp before my next long rest or I'll lose Wyll. Good thing, I've got nothing left to do now but head towards the goblin camp. I make my way in, fight some gobbos, and get to Gut. After battling with her, I'm almost dead and need another long rest. I decide Wyll isn't worth it. I can't push on. I long rest, returning to camp. Day 5 ends. Wyll departs in the morning. It is Day 6 now. When I wake up and find Wyll gone, a Tiefling approaches. "It is clear the goblins are going to attack at dusk. If you're going to kill the leaders, you'd better do so now!"

So I rush back only to find that the entire goblin camp is hostile towards me because I killed their priestess and then went and rested for 8 hours. They discovered her dead body and figured out it was me and my companions. Who else would it have been? The battle is too fierce just to get into the base. I lose most of my team gain and am forced to flee. I return to camp and resurrect the fallen. No choice. I need to long rest again. A Tiefling is there when I wake. "The Goblins are coming! If you are going to help us, you have to come to the grove now."

The Astarion says, "You know, we could really use this opportunity to sneak into the base camp to find this Halsin fellow. Leave the Tieflings and Druids to die. Who cares? If we don't rescue Halsin...well. He's our last chance for a cure right now. Right?"

Another tough choice for the player to make. How exciting! I can either sneak into the goblin camp easier while the goblins are all fighting Tieflings and Druids, who should fight as a united group if I proved Kahga is evil, or I can help the Tieflings and Druids fight off the goblins. What do I do?


Sigh. So, hopefully you see my point. This is a much more exciting story than what Larian is giving us right now. Add consequences to slow actions and bad things happen. Keep the pace moving and you are rewarded by having good things happen. If you move fast enough, you save the Tieflings and Druids, or whatever. It is a reward for good roleplaying. Likewise, finding Kahga's deceptions and dethroning her should reward me with NOT having Tieflings kicked out and the ritual complete even if the goblins come and attack. I should also be rewarded for this by having the Druids actually helping defend the grove against the goblins at the gate. Consequences for bad roleplaying and rewards for good roleplaying create incentive to play the game good and makes the game more meaningful and intense and exciting. If I know that I only have a few days to do something or people are going to die, I'm going to feel the tension and stress, and I'm going to try to prioritize my goals a whole lot more. What we have now is too forgiving. It lacks tension and excitement because there is no negative side effects.
I've never been a fan of the "Hurry! You're going to die! Soon!" games like the "Curse of the Azure Bonds" or the "Neverwinter Nights Mask of the Betrayer" games. Your first run through the game you actually believe the "Hurry! You're going to die! Soon!" lie and try to cure yourself as soon as possible, only to be disappointed. THAT is the biggest punishment for good role playing! If, say, you were able to get cured early in the game, and then spend the rest of the game determining who did it to you, why they did it, and trying to stop them, or getting revenge, THAT would be better role playing.
In BG3, like BG2, you start out in a rush, trying to just get out of there A.S.A.P.! But it's not until you're on the beach and meet Shadowheart, who says that you're going to need supplies, do you learn that you need to start looking for stuff. A BETTER role playing option would be to encounter someone, perhaps Lae'zel, in or near one of the first mindflayer pods that directs the player to find some better gear as happens at the start of BG2.
As most of the Companions mention seeing the player STRUTTING about the ship, why not let us see them too? (even if we can't get to them?)
As I am found of the Rogue, and love roleplaying one, I am disappointed with the Rogue in BG3. Or should I say, why bother role playing a Rogue? EVERY Class can do EVERYTHING that a Rogue can do! The difference between having a Rogue lockpick or disarm a trap, and some other class doing so should be miles apart, not the same thing. In Early Access I've been forced to play a Warlock for the damage output because it can do everything a Rogue can, but deals more damage.
The bottom line is this, every class has it's perks and it's weaknesses, role playing involves playing to the perks, and dealing with the weaknesses. (often by having companions who cover the weaknesses) I love role playing, but BG3 currently centers around maximizing damage, and almost completely ignoring any role playing aspects.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
And that is exactly my point. If you want the game to go from good to EXCELLENT, you need to drive the narrative. You need to reward players for driving harder and challenging themselves, not the opposite. The game, right now, rewards me more if I don't drive towards the goal. If I carefully move around the map, searching every pixel, I find better weapons, armor, magic items, books, tomes, etc. that give me more context and story. If I rest a lot, I get more dialogue and character development.

I'm saying that Larian needs to do the opposite to make the game an incredible experience. Drive players to the helm of the mind flayer ship.

MAJOR SPOILERS!!!

This is how the game should be to make it a fully exciting and incredibly intense experience instead of just a nice, casual game:

I wake up after escaping the pod. I realize there's nothing around me to endanger me at least in the immediate future. However, I can hear combat outside. Everything is on fire. My heart is pounding. Now's my chance to escape if I seize the opportunity. I glance around the room. (Hidden Perception check. I succeed in rolling a 14, though the game doesn't tell me this. All items nearby that have a difficulty of 14 or lower are highlighted that are of any worth at all. Items like spoons, knives, forks, plates, food are not highlighted. Basically, my character is just looking for weapons and armor and anything that might help them escape like potions and explosive items.) I rush to these highlighted objects and grab them and bolt for the door. I don't waste any additional time trying to search every nook and cranny because the room is on fire and the mind flayers could return at any moment.

But let's say someone starts to actually search the room through all the other stuff Larian has planted around the room. Suddenly, the wall explodes and a mind flayer comes crashing into the room. He's not dead. Demons also drop in, battling with the mind flayer. One of them starts moving in my direction but doesn't quite reach me. The game instructs me that fleeing is a thing, using Tutorial to indicate that you should not fight this battle. You aren't going to win. So you hit the flee button and leave the room.

You're in the next room. Another hidden Perception check. You roll a 9. Only items with 9 or lower difficulty are highlighted and only if they are weapons or equipment that can be useful to escape or are story items, etc. I grab them and hear, "We are hear. We are trapped. Help us!" So naturally I go to try to see if I can help someone else escape, because I'm a good character in this playthrough. So I rush to the devourer and interact with it. Another Perception check. The two boxes nearby are highlighted. Something good inside that might be worth a look. I rush to them and grab them. I drop back down and start to explore more of the items in the room. Larian allows this for only a few minutes. Then, all of a sudden, the door from the chamber you had just been in is opened, and demons enter the chamber. At this point, you can either fight and die or run again out the flaming doorway to escape the inside of the ship. An explosion as you exit seals off the passage behind you. At least for now you've escaped from the demons.

You reach Lae'zel and fight the imps and reach the top of the ship. You start to explore. Boom! A dragon lands on the deck near you and begins to battle the imps and thralls on the ship. Now, you can either hang around and search bodies or bolt. If you hang around, again Larian gives you maybe a moment or two, but if you don't move your butt the dragon suddenly shoots flames near you. Enough to give you a warning. Get your butt in gear or you're going to be dragonfodder. You race to the next level up to escape the raging dragon. You get into the area where Shadowheart is.

This scene, I would expect Larian to allow more time to interact and explore. You are trying to save Shadowheart and so forth. Therefore, allow players maybe 5 minutes before, again, something like imps in greater numbers appear to attack you. After all, Lae'zel already warns you to leave Shadowheart because you are going to die if you don't, so why not make it so that if you don't just leave her you will actually potentially die? Wouldn't that make the situation more intense and exciting? If you explore around for more than a few minutes you might get attacked by even greater numbers of enemies?

So you flee again and dart into the next chamber. Let's add a small cutscene where Lae'zel does something to seal the entrance behind you, thus keeping out the imps that were chasing you. You heal and rush into the helm. Then the helm scene plays out like it does now, because they've already got something like this in place where demons show up if you're taking too long.

Finally, you are on the beach, and a new day has started. Here, you might take a bit more time to adjust to your environment and explore a bit. This is natural and makes sense. Here you might pick up items you think you might need for the future including fish that might spoil soon. You just escaped from the Hells. You're freaking out because you're infected with a mind flayer parasite and are told you might turn into one. So you would naturally want to hunt for supplies that might help you survive as long as possible. You meet Shadowheart and fight devourers.

Now, at this point, the game suggests and teaches you about long rests. That's fine except that at this point the game should warn you that long resting has consequences. Time progresses from day to night whenever you long rest, and certain events are time sensitive. So only use long rest when necessary.

Right there, now I know that if I long rest things could go really bad for me. I realize I'm half dead, so I only short rest. That makes logical sense to be able to do every 8 hours without explaining to people that an hour just went by. We don't need time to be that sensitive that if you short rest you'll miss something. So I short rest and move on. Still Day 1. I meet Astarion, Gale and reach the Dank Crypt. I convince the mercs outside to leave me alone and I make my way inside. After fighting Marli and Barton and the gang, I am now almost dead again and have expended all my spell slots. Hmmm. Long rest seems reasonable now. So I rest for 8 hours just inside the Dank Crypt.

I have no problem with the mechanic that you just teleport to the mysterious camp that has no real place on the map. All it means is that the adventurers wandered about searching for a campsite to call their own and it took some time to find and they finally found it. Great. You have a campfire scene and trigger the first camp dialogues. Larian allows you to trigger all the dialogues that should have been triggered up until this point so that you get the Gale Mirror Image dialogue and Shadowheart's I'm not sure this is such a good idea dialogue. These make sense at the first camp. I rest. 8 hours goes by. Let's say they don't even change it to night. Big deal. Only 8 hours went by, so it could still be daylight out. I'm good with that. However, the point is that it is still Day 1.

So I complete the Dank Crypt after my first long rest of 8 hours. I short rest. Still doing good. I meet Lae'zel and fight the goblin fight outside the Druid's Grove. With them defeated, I maybe short rest, move about the grove, talk to a bunch of people, fight some harpies, etc. I long rest again. Now the first day ends and I have my second set of campside dialogues. Gale tells me to Go to Hell, etc. Because I even went through the Druid's Grove, I trigger Raphael too. How exciting! All that happened in just 1 day. Day 1 is now complete and I didn't even miss out on any dialogue. Along the way, I found all sorts of useful things with my hidden Perception rolls not slowing the game down by manually searching every little crack and barrel. I could have explored manually more deeply if I really wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything, but that is my gamer's choice at this point. I have no problem with that kind of thing if that's what a gamer wants to do and the story isn't driving you to rush so much that you can't search things. I could see people taking their time through the Dank Crypt searching all the nooks and crannies searching for diamonds in the rough that could even potentially help you with your situation.

Day 2 begins. I explore outside the Grove. I meet Ed and his siblings, Scratch, and wander my way into Blighted Village. Oh man! The battle with the goblins has left me almost dead with no spells. I need to long rest. 8 hours later, I'm back in Blighted Village exploring around. I meet more goblins and need a short rest after. Still good with this. I explore some more, find the spider's lair, and curiosity gets the better of me. Halfway through, I'm nearly dead. I didn't even reach the matriarch. I need another long rest. Dang! Day 2 is over now. Astarion tries to bite me in the night. I find out he's a vampire. Dang! Incredible discovery for Day 2. Back to the spiders' lair. I fight the boss fight. Almost die. Dang! I need to long rest again and do so. 8 hours go by. Still Day 3. I head south into the bog and meet the hag. I discover she's a hag and that someone is in trouble. I can't help myself. I have to do something to save Mayrina.

Now, here again, timing should come into play. I fight the Red Caps and defeat them. I should now have a limited time to get my butt down into the hag's lair to save Mayrina or it is too late. This should be like a Final Fantasy 7 prologue moment. I have thirty minutes on the clock to get my butt into her lair and fight her or Mayrina is shipped off to Hag's school in Baldur's Gate, or whatever. I might spend some of that time looking for lotions and potions I might need to recover from the Red Cap fight and the future fight against the adventurers that are being controlled by the hag, and maybe one of those potions could give me spell slot recovery so I can fully replenish my characters for the really nasty hag fight that is to come. Instead of making us do something like rest 8 hours before we do the final hag fight, which is totally unbelievable, let me find a set of 4 potions that gives my characters full health and spell slots back. Man! That hag can work miracles!

I fight the hag, she nearly wipes me out completely. We barely beat her, like I did in the first playthrough, with only 1 person left on their feet and by shoving the real hag into a bottomless pit. Now I need another long rest for sure after finishing with Mayrina. Man! That was intense and I barely made it. So I long rest. End of Day 3.

That night, at camp, a Tiefling is sent to me by Zevlor. "Goblins have been seen at their camps gearing up for an invasion. We suspect it may only be another day or two before they attack us. The druid's have said that they will give us until the goblins begin to march towards the grove before they are going to complete the ritual. Please do something before it's too late." My character then thinks in game, "Dang! I've wasted too much time already. I need to hurry if I'm going to save the grove." I, the player, am now cued in that I need to get back to the original main quest before it is too late. The next morning, I explore the rest of the swamp, just because I can't help myself, I find Kahga's deception and bring it back to the grove. Good gameplay! Now, I've dethroned Kahga and spared the Tieflings from at least getting kicked out of the grove when the goblins show up, if I don't make it in time to kill the leaders.

However, I'm also back to needing a long rest to recover. So 8 hours goes by. I move on towards the goblin camp. Ah, but during camp during that long rest Lae'zel approaches me. "You're wasting too much time. We know where the creche is. If you don't take me to the creche today, I'm going to leave your party." Now you have a tough choice. Either get your butt to the Githyanki before you long rest again or you'll lose Lae'zel forever as a party member. I hurry north instead of towards the gobbo camp. Lae'zel, I decide, is more important to keep around and I still have a few more days to get to the gobbos. I head north and west, encounter the Flaming Fists and Zhents. Oh crap! I need another long rest. I don't want to lose Lae'zel. So I risk it to get to the Gith just using potions and short rests to heal. I have no spell slots anymore, but at least I'm full health.

I reach the Githyanki, they betray us. 3 out of the 4 party members die, but 1 escapes back to camp using the flee feature. Well, now I have to spend money on the currently useless lich guy in order to resurrect my fellow party members. Now the lich guy has more value in the game. I don't have enough gold. Oh well, guess I can only resurrect 1. Let's say Astarion and Wyll and Lae'zel all died in the encounter. Guess I'll resurrect Lae'zel and just add Gale and Shadowheart to the party. Later I can resurrect the other two, but I'll need more gold for that.

Now I can rest another 8 hours, but if I do I will never get the item I need to find the Githyanki creche. Dang! Another tough choice. If I sleep, the Gith will be long gone by then. If I hurry back to the spot, I can still fight them and maybe kill them and get the item. Decisions! Decisions!

I go back, fight them, get the creche location and I'm golden. Now I can sell items, get enough money and resurrect Astarion and Wyll. Long rest means another day is gone, but at least I keep Lae'zel. End of Day 4. Back on the road, I spot the dead bodies and I've agreed to help the Zhents so I go looking for their shipment. I battle gnolls and Tyrites to save the Tiefling hunter. I need another long rest. 8 hours. Half of Day 5 is almost over already. At camp, Wyll approaches. He's angry. "Why do we keep wasting our time when the goblins are about to attack the grove and kill all the tieflings? If you don't get to the goblin camp tonight, I'm leaving the party and will try to do it myself." So again, I know that I need to beat the goblin camp before my next long rest or I'll lose Wyll. Good thing, I've got nothing left to do now but head towards the goblin camp. I make my way in, fight some gobbos, and get to Gut. After battling with her, I'm almost dead and need another long rest. I decide Wyll isn't worth it. I can't push on. I long rest, returning to camp. Day 5 ends. Wyll departs in the morning. It is Day 6 now. When I wake up and find Wyll gone, a Tiefling approaches. "It is clear the goblins are going to attack at dusk. If you're going to kill the leaders, you'd better do so now!"

So I rush back only to find that the entire goblin camp is hostile towards me because I killed their priestess and then went and rested for 8 hours. They discovered her dead body and figured out it was me and my companions. Who else would it have been? The battle is too fierce just to get into the base. I lose most of my team gain and am forced to flee. I return to camp and resurrect the fallen. No choice. I need to long rest again. A Tiefling is there when I wake. "The Goblins are coming! If you are going to help us, you have to come to the grove now."

The Astarion says, "You know, we could really use this opportunity to sneak into the base camp to find this Halsin fellow. Leave the Tieflings and Druids to die. Who cares? If we don't rescue Halsin...well. He's our last chance for a cure right now. Right?"

Another tough choice for the player to make. How exciting! I can either sneak into the goblin camp easier while the goblins are all fighting Tieflings and Druids, who should fight as a united group if I proved Kahga is evil, or I can help the Tieflings and Druids fight off the goblins. What do I do?


Sigh. So, hopefully you see my point. This is a much more exciting story than what Larian is giving us right now. Add consequences to slow actions and bad things happen. Keep the pace moving and you are rewarded by having good things happen. If you move fast enough, you save the Tieflings and Druids, or whatever. It is a reward for good roleplaying. Likewise, finding Kahga's deceptions and dethroning her should reward me with NOT having Tieflings kicked out and the ritual complete even if the goblins come and attack. I should also be rewarded for this by having the Druids actually helping defend the grove against the goblins at the gate. Consequences for bad roleplaying and rewards for good roleplaying create incentive to play the game good and makes the game more meaningful and intense and exciting. If I know that I only have a few days to do something or people are going to die, I'm going to feel the tension and stress, and I'm going to try to prioritize my goals a whole lot more. What we have now is too forgiving. It lacks tension and excitement because there is no negative side effects.

You can type out as long of a novella as you like, and you are welcome to roleplay the game as you wish, but the reality, is that that game almost immediately starts minimizing the initial sense of urgency through the story progression. It's obvious from their choices that Larian specifically chose to lessen the need to rush about and try to get the tadpole removed as quickly as possible.
But again, that's my point. They weaken the game by minimizing the sense of urgency instead of increasing it and creating more intensity. The game would be so much more exciting if they put time limits on things. They don't even have to be harsh time limits. They just need to be realistic ones. Maybe 6 days is too much for the gobbos to attack. Although I think if you do 12 long rests = 6 days, that's a pretty huge amount of time that you still have to complete the quest.

I am constantly rewarded for bad roleplaying and punished for good roleplaying. If I play this game in a way that makes logical sense, hurrying to get the tadpole out of my head, I miss out on tons of stuff. If I take my time and not care about the invader in my skull and ignore everyone who is telling me to find a healer quickly, I get lots of better gear and story stuff. That is the exact opposite of how any game should be. That's exactly the opposite of how D&D is supposed to be played and ANY RPG. Reward good gaming. Punish bad gaming. Don't punish good gaming and reward bad gaming. Don't call this a D&D game if you aren't going to reward players for good roleplaying. Don't even call it an RPG because you aren't truly roleplaying if you are just playing a game where you run around leisurely and collect whatever you want and ignore the story. The story IS the RPG. That's the whole point. You put yourself in the role of a character you created.

I don't care what way you slice it, if I'm going into the hag's lair to save Mayrina, and I rest for 8-20 hours before facing the hag, Mayrina shouldn't be there no more. If I don't save the Tieflings by the time the druids complete their ritual, they should be kicked out and slaughtered by the goblins. That is the story. That's what everyone keeps telling me in the game. Hurry and kill the goblins or stop the ritual or everyone is going to die.

So take the dang tadpole out of it even and just take it from that point of view, cause it seems people are getting hung up on the dumb tadpole. If you don't kill the gobbos in a certain amount of time they are going to show up and kill everyone. The druids right now take days upon days upon days to complete the ritual, and I'm ending day all the time to make a week or more go by and they are STILL doing the ritual. I'm like. "Yeah. I'm not worried, Tieflings. I'm gonna sit on a bench for a while, sleep all I want, maybe stroll along the road and so forth cause I know as a player that those gobbos are never coming and those druids are never gonna kick you out. Unless I actually join the villains, those gobbos are never going to attack.

And that, right there, is another punishment. I actually found the game so much more epic when I chose to be evil and agreed to help the gobbos attack the druids' grove. That was a cool battle at the gate when I betrayed the gobbos and still wound up helping fight back. So, I want Larian to let me have this fight if I don't kill the gobbos in time. Give me the ability to help defend the grove when the gobbos attack because I ran out of time. So if I want to take all the time I want so that I can help fight gobbos with the help of the tieflings and/or druids, then let me do so. But again, that battle should have more gobbos and the druids should be either helping, if I kicked Kahga out of her position, or they should push us out of the grove so that we have to find another place to defend ourselves in or die.

How would this sense of time and realism hurt the game? Why so much resistance to it? The only reasoning I can see as to why anyone would resist this idea is that they want the ability to leisurely explore the world and not feel rushed. But this approach only slows down the pace of the game and it isn't even remotely believable as a story goes. The GOBLINS FIND THE GROVE...RIGHT AWAY. They know where it is. It should only take them a few days at most to prepare the attack to wipe out the tieflings and the druids. Same with the ritual. It's already started. It shouldn't take a week or more for them to complete it. No matter how much you might want to just stroll along and explore, that's not the way the story goes. That's not how it has been laid out.

It would only make it more exciting and meaningful and allow people so many different consequences to their actions if they reward good playing and punish bad playing. Maybe the first time I play, I do so well that I don't even trigger the gobbo attack on the grove. The next time I play, I don't do as well and the gobbos attack the grove and I have to choose to either try to save Halsin or help defend the Tieflings. I don't even kick Kahga out of her position, so the Tieflings and I have to fight the gobbos maybe in Blighted Village or at the Dank Crypt or something like that. Maybe the third time, I still have to fight the gobbos because I didn't hurry enough, but then I managed to kick Kahga out so we fight at the grove gate.

So I'm talking about excitement level and pace of the game and intensity of gameplay. It still could give you enough time to explore and complete all the side quests, but only if you play the game well. If you don't play the game well, you might fail to complete a number of quests and therefore miss out on rewards for completing the quests.

And that's another point. I should be rewarded with the best items after I complete a quest. So after fighting the hag in a timely way, I should be rewarded with the best gear. If I beat her after Mayrina is already sent away, I should get less good gear. Still good gear for beating the hag, but not as good as if I'd saved Mayrina too. I should be able to pretty much ignore the useless gear all around the world because if I beat the bosses I get all the best gear anyway. The rest of the gear and items in the game should be stuff that is nice to have if I pick it up.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
But again, that's my point. They weaken the game by minimizing the sense of urgency instead of increasing it and creating more intensity. The game would be so much more exciting if they put time limits on things. They don't even have to be harsh time limits. They just need to be realistic ones. Maybe 6 days is too much for the gobbos to attack. Although I think if you do 12 long rests = 6 days, that's a pretty huge amount of time that you still have to complete the quest.

I am constantly rewarded for bad roleplaying and punished for good roleplaying. If I play this game in a way that makes logical sense, hurrying to get the tadpole out of my head, I miss out on tons of stuff. If I take my time and not care about the invader in my skull and ignore everyone who is telling me to find a healer quickly, I get lots of better gear and story stuff. That is the exact opposite of how any game should be. That's exactly the opposite of how D&D is supposed to be played and ANY RPG. Reward good gaming. Punish bad gaming. Don't punish good gaming and reward bad gaming. Don't call this a D&D game if you aren't going to reward players for good roleplaying. Don't even call it an RPG because you aren't truly roleplaying if you are just playing a game where you run around leisurely and collect whatever you want and ignore the story. The story IS the RPG. That's the whole point. You put yourself in the role of a character you created.

I don't care what way you slice it, if I'm going into the hag's lair to save Mayrina, and I rest for 8-20 hours before facing the hag, Mayrina shouldn't be there no more. If I don't save the Tieflings by the time the druids complete their ritual, they should be kicked out and slaughtered by the goblins. That is the story. That's what everyone keeps telling me in the game. Hurry and kill the goblins or stop the ritual or everyone is going to die.

So take the dang tadpole out of it even and just take it from that point of view, cause it seems people are getting hung up on the dumb tadpole. If you don't kill the gobbos in a certain amount of time they are going to show up and kill everyone. The druids right now take days upon days upon days to complete the ritual, and I'm ending day all the time to make a week or more go by and they are STILL doing the ritual. I'm like. "Yeah. I'm not worried, Tieflings. I'm gonna sit on a bench for a while, sleep all I want, maybe stroll along the road and so forth cause I know as a player that those gobbos are never coming and those druids are never gonna kick you out. Unless I actually join the villains, those gobbos are never going to attack.

And that, right there, is another punishment. I actually found the game so much more epic when I chose to be evil and agreed to help the gobbos attack the druids' grove. That was a cool battle at the gate when I betrayed the gobbos and still wound up helping fight back. So, I want Larian to let me have this fight if I don't kill the gobbos in time. Give me the ability to help defend the grove when the gobbos attack because I ran out of time. So if I want to take all the time I want so that I can help fight gobbos with the help of the tieflings and/or druids, then let me do so. But again, that battle should have more gobbos and the druids should be either helping, if I kicked Kahga out of her position, or they should push us out of the grove so that we have to find another place to defend ourselves in or die.

How would this sense of time and realism hurt the game? Why so much resistance to it? The only reasoning I can see as to why anyone would resist this idea is that they want the ability to leisurely explore the world and not feel rushed. But this approach only slows down the pace of the game and it isn't even remotely believable as a story goes. The GOBLINS FIND THE GROVE...RIGHT AWAY. They know where it is. It should only take them a few days at most to prepare the attack to wipe out the tieflings and the druids. Same with the ritual. It's already started. It shouldn't take a week or more for them to complete it. No matter how much you might want to just stroll along and explore, that's not the way the story goes. That's not how it has been laid out.

It would only make it more exciting and meaningful and allow people so many different consequences to their actions if they reward good playing and punish bad playing. Maybe the first time I play, I do so well that I don't even trigger the gobbo attack on the grove. The next time I play, I don't do as well and the gobbos attack the grove and I have to choose to either try to save Halsin or help defend the Tieflings. I don't even kick Kahga out of her position, so the Tieflings and I have to fight the gobbos maybe in Blighted Village or at the Dank Crypt or something like that. Maybe the third time, I still have to fight the gobbos because I didn't hurry enough, but then I managed to kick Kahga out so we fight at the grove gate.

So I'm talking about excitement level and pace of the game and intensity of gameplay. It still could give you enough time to explore and complete all the side quests, but only if you play the game well. If you don't play the game well, you might fail to complete a number of quests and therefore miss out on rewards for completing the quests.

And that's another point. I should be rewarded with the best items after I complete a quest. So after fighting the hag in a timely way, I should be rewarded with the best gear. If I beat her after Mayrina is already sent away, I should get less good gear. Still good gear for beating the hag, but not as good as if I'd saved Mayrina too. I should be able to pretty much ignore the useless gear all around the world because if I beat the bosses I get all the best gear anyway. The rest of the gear and items in the game should be stuff that is nice to have if I pick it up.

I'm honestly of two minds about how much tension I want from a roleplaying game, but while I don't know if I would want the experience you're describing, I do think the experience you're describing would be a very satisfying one. Honestly it's a problem I feel like most RPGs have to some degree or another, though BG3 feels particularly notable. They all tend to have quests that inspire urgency, but exploring the world is part of the fun and point of the experience. I feel like the Dragon Age games, particularly DA2 and DA:I did the best job of avoiding that pitfall and justifying spending time exploring. 2 was focused on you just living your life, with arcs going on in the background but the main story was, in terms of narrative, about you as Hawke making a life and how your actions and the world around you respond to each other. Whereas in DA:I, you're kind of in a holding pattern against your main antagonist, trying to errode his power base on different fronts and needing to amass a power base of your own to do so, so ever side quest was in some way in service to that central goal. So you almost never feel that dissonance that's at play in BG3.
Look, I could make a long reply detailing the flaws in many of these arguments. I could point out that the issue boils down to the idea of a 'critical path' and optional sidequests which exist in most crpgs. Some games handle this better than others, but the tension is always there. Even the Witcher 3 had this dissonance. I could point out there is in fact a story reason to explore, which is Gale's quest for artefacts.

Of course you should be 'punished' for only following the critical path. If that were not the case the inverse would not be true, ie you would not be rewarded for dealing with the optional quests, which is utterly ridiculous.

Furthermore it is obvious, as many people have pointed out, that the game is laying clues for your motivations as a character to develop throughout the act. The why becomes as important as the how in other words.

This game is based on choices. You can choose to beeline to the githyanki (which will be mechanically hard I grant) or you can choose to listen to your gut if you pass the insight check which lets you know Laezal's holding something back from you. Hell, you can choose to kill her if you really want. I've seen the Ethel quest referred to a sidequest, but in fact you can learn a very crucial piece of information if you choose to let her help you. One that stands to the why AND the how. Shame it is gated behind certain choices and a literally crippling penalty.

If a dm had the nerve to tell me how I choose to make my character act according to his motivations is "bad roleplay", I'd walk out of the session never to return. Times a hundred for my character in a choice based crpg. Feel free to rp your own character the way you want and let me do likewise. I personally feel that treating a story as a desperate race against time without considering common issues like pacing, balancing quiet moments with tense ones, is a one trick pony, one that would become tiring very very quickly. But that is just my opinion.

I won't even ask people to stop suggesting that the game should be tailored to fit their narrow interpretation of the narrative and motivations. The reason being the game is highly unlikely to include any such suggestion and, after all, everyone is entitled to an opinion, no matter how badly thought out or applicable to only a few people.

But what is NOT an opinion is that there are other people who find a motivation to explore the story as presented without this suggested haste. They're not doing it "wrong", just differently.
Did you know you are complaining about the way RPGs are structured?
The passage of time and urgency are always things that the games dont care about.
Whether you like it or not, time limits aren't too popular, and for good reason. People just don't like them.
In BG2 (as in most games) you could ignore the entire main storyline and clean most of the map before going to spellhold.
Originally Posted by crashdaddy
Look, I could make a long reply detailing the flaws in many of these arguments. I could point out that the issue boils down to the idea of a 'critical path' and optional sidequests which exist in most crpgs. Some games handle this better than others, but the tension is always there. Even the Witcher 3 had this dissonance. I could point out there is in fact a story reason to explore, which is Gale's quest for artefacts.

Of course you should be 'punished' for only following the critical path. If that were not the case the inverse would not be true, ie you would not be rewarded for dealing with the optional quests, which is utterly ridiculous.

Furthermore it is obvious, as many people have pointed out, that the game is laying clues for your motivations as a character to develop throughout the act. The why becomes as important as the how in other words.

This game is based on choices. You can choose to beeline to the githyanki (which will be mechanically hard I grant) or you can choose to listen to your gut if you pass the insight check which lets you know Laezal's holding something back from you. Hell, you can choose to kill her if you really want. I've seen the Ethel quest referred to a sidequest, but in fact you can learn a very crucial piece of information if you choose to let her help you. One that stands to the why AND the how. Shame it is gated behind certain choices and a literally crippling penalty.

If a dm had the nerve to tell me how I choose to make my character act according to his motivations is "bad roleplay", I'd walk out of the session never to return. Times a hundred for my character in a choice based crpg. Feel free to rp your own character the way you want and let me do likewise. I personally feel that treating a story as a desperate race against time without considering common issues like pacing, balancing quiet moments with tense ones, is a one trick pony, one that would become tiring very very quickly. But that is just my opinion.

I won't even ask people to stop suggesting that the game should be tailored to fit their narrow interpretation of the narrative and motivations. The reason being the game is highly unlikely to include any such suggestion and, after all, everyone is entitled to an opinion, no matter how badly thought out or applicable to only a few people.

But what is NOT an opinion is that there are other people who find a motivation to explore the story as presented without this suggested haste. They're not doing it "wrong", just differently.

You make a lot of valid points. Honestly I'm generally not *too* bothered about this sort of dissonance, it just feels like the with this game in particular the dissonance is especially egregious. The game gives you information up front that it almost immediately backs off from in a way that feels frustrating and unsatisfying. If you're going to spend the rest of the act giving players clues that the situation isn't urgent, don't tell them it's urgent in the first place, you've just primed them to be suspicious of information that contradicts the given sense of urgency (especially since most sources of information are unreliable and it's very easy to find reasons to thing they're specifically meant to misinform you) and to act in a way that's detrimental to their enjoyment of the game. And when they finally do relax and start taking their time, it's not some big reveal that comes with a release of tension, it ends up feeling more like "oh, so I was stupid to believe the thing you were telling me." There's a good story here, but the game is proving bad at presenting the information to you in various places. Like the Auntie Ethel point you made. It is insane to me that they gate such a major piece of information behind a side quest you can potentially miss, and then effectively punish you with such a major penalty. I can't imagine who suggested it and who thought it was a good idea to include it.

As I've said earlier in this thread, the first you should hear of the time limit (or at least the first in depth explanation of it you get) should come at the same time it's pointed out that "we should be changing by now but we're not." Then you've immediately framed the situation as an explicit mystery right off the bat, rather than giving the players what seems like a clear explanation that they then have to accept as being invalid for reasons. This is especially important given there doesn't seem to be a point where the story gives you a clearly defined eureaka moment where you figure out the tadpole isn't going to be a problem.
Look the passage of time that occurs in games like Baldur's Gate 2 is considerably different from Baldur's Gate 3. In Baldur's Gate 2 you are forced to do side quests to earn money to pay the Thieves Guild in order that they might get you in to spell hold. That is considerably different from having a mind flayer tadpole in your head that is going to cause your flesh to tear off your body and your face to split open. It is also considerably different because you are told immediately upon entering The Druids Grove that the Goblins now could attack the Grove at any time. You are also told that The Druids are performing a ritual and will be completing it at any time now. So there is a much greater story element related to time in Baldur's Gate 3. You are literally told that you have a limited amount of time but then the game does not actually limit you on your time or provide any consequences for taking too long. So the Developers set the stage implying that this is a time-sensitive game but then they don't actually make it a time-sensitive game.

I don't mind games that allow me to explore the entire world map and searched all sorts of things and do all sorts of sidequest, but don't set the stage as a time-sensitive scenario only to make it the opposite and reward players for not caring about the passage of time. If you are going to set the stage as a time-sensitive game and story you need then make consequences for people who do not stay true to the time that they are allowed. You can't first tell someone that they only have a short amount of time before goblins attack only then allow the player to take as long as they want to complete their Quest. Basically when I first played this game I clearly got the point that things were going to happen in a timely way if I did not what I should be doing and I was punished for it. I don't understand why so many are saying that it is logical to punish a gamer for trying to push their characters to actually complete their quests in a timely way.
Originally Posted by grysqrl
Sure, my character's responses will be all over the place. As a player, I feel let down by how hard they sell the danger and the urgency (most of the companions make a point about how important speed is) and then how quickly they back off of it.

There is no way to make it more of an urgency, unless you say make it like XCOM where there is an actual time limit and your days mattered. This is not that type of game, of course they are going to slow down the urgency and then project a new goal to "stop" the tadpole. Otherwise you would have a 2 hour game. You are trying to project real world logic onto game theory and there is only so much that will line up that way. I mean that is at least one thing that CP2077 did, is their progression of the invasive "virus".

Not to mention, we have no idea what it is going to happen after the first chapter. We haven't even been able to see the closing of that chapter.
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by grysqrl
Sure, my character's responses will be all over the place. As a player, I feel let down by how hard they sell the danger and the urgency (most of the companions make a point about how important speed is) and then how quickly they back off of it.

There is no way to make it more of an urgency, unless you say make it like XCOM where there is an actual time limit and your days mattered. This is not that type of game, of course they are going to slow down the urgency and then project a new goal to "stop" the tadpole. Otherwise you would have a 2 hour game. You are trying to project real world logic onto game theory and there is only so much that will line up that way. I mean that is at least one thing that CP2077 did, is their progression of the invasive "virus".

Not to mention, we have no idea what it is going to happen after the first chapter. We haven't even been able to see the closing of that chapter.
The whiplash of going from "this is the only thing that matters" to "there is no urgency at all" is what I'm hoping they will tone down. Maybe they shouldn't sell the urgency so hard up front. Don't have Gale and Lae'zel know (or tell you) what ceremorphosis is. So you know there's a tadpole in your head and that you want to do something about it, but you don't know that you should only have a few days to live. That could change the tone from a desperate race against the clock into a mystery to be unraveled.
Originally Posted by grysqrl
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by grysqrl
Sure, my character's responses will be all over the place. As a player, I feel let down by how hard they sell the danger and the urgency (most of the companions make a point about how important speed is) and then how quickly they back off of it.

There is no way to make it more of an urgency, unless you say make it like XCOM where there is an actual time limit and your days mattered. This is not that type of game, of course they are going to slow down the urgency and then project a new goal to "stop" the tadpole. Otherwise you would have a 2 hour game. You are trying to project real world logic onto game theory and there is only so much that will line up that way. I mean that is at least one thing that CP2077 did, is their progression of the invasive "virus".

Not to mention, we have no idea what it is going to happen after the first chapter. We haven't even been able to see the closing of that chapter.
The whiplash of going from "this is the only thing that matters" to "there is no urgency at all" is what I'm hoping they will tone down. Maybe they shouldn't sell the urgency so hard up front. Don't have Gale and Lae'zel know (or tell you) what ceremorphosis is. So you know there's a tadpole in your head and that you want to do something about it, but you don't know that you should only have a few days to live. That could change the tone from a desperate race against the clock into a mystery to be unraveled.

The common understanding of being infected with a normal illithid tadpole, is ceremorphosis in 7 days. You start learning very quickly that the tadpole in your head is not normal. As you progress through the game, it becomes more apparent.

It's really pretty straightforward.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Look the passage of time that occurs in games like Baldur's Gate 2 is considerably different from Baldur's Gate 3. In Baldur's Gate 2 you are forced to do side quests to earn money to pay the Thieves Guild in order that they might get you in to spell hold. That is considerably different from having a mind flayer tadpole in your head that is going to cause your flesh to tear off your body and your face to split open. It is also considerably different because you are told immediately upon entering The Druids Grove that the Goblins now could attack the Grove at any time. You are also told that The Druids are performing a ritual and will be completing it at any time now. So there is a much greater story element related to time in Baldur's Gate 3. You are literally told that you have a limited amount of time but then the game does not actually limit you on your time or provide any consequences for taking too long. So the Developers set the stage implying that this is a time-sensitive game but then they don't actually make it a time-sensitive game.

I don't mind games that allow me to explore the entire world map and searched all sorts of things and do all sorts of sidequest, but don't set the stage as a time-sensitive scenario only to make it the opposite and reward players for not caring about the passage of time. If you are going to set the stage as a time-sensitive game and story you need then make consequences for people who do not stay true to the time that they are allowed. You can't first tell someone that they only have a short amount of time before goblins attack only then allow the player to take as long as they want to complete their Quest. Basically when I first played this game I clearly got the point that things were going to happen in a timely way if I did not what I should be doing and I was punished for it. I don't understand why so many are saying that it is logical to punish a gamer for trying to push their characters to actually complete their quests in a timely way.

It's been like that in games almost always.
No matter that the game tells you that if you don't hurry up, the evil dragon will burn the city, players know that the dragon will wait for them.
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
There is no way to make it more of an urgency, unless you say make it like XCOM where there is an actual time limit and your days mattered. This is not that type of game, of course they are going to slow down the urgency and then project a new goal to "stop" the tadpole. Otherwise you would have a 2 hour game. You are trying to project real world logic onto game theory and there is only so much that will line up that way. I mean that is at least one thing that CP2077 did, is their progression of the invasive "virus".

Not to mention, we have no idea what it is going to happen after the first chapter. We haven't even been able to see the closing of that chapter.
Doesn't the game already do this with the burning inn? If you rest after going to that area, the inn burns down? A similar thing can be done with other areas & quests. And as someone said earlier in this thread, it doesn't need to turn into a "fail" state, just a different effect.
-Rest before saving Mayrina? She gets taken somewhere else and becomes part of an Act 2 quest.
-Rest too much before solving the Grove problems? The next time you enter, the ritual is in its final moments and you have to choose whether to let it happen or stop the druids through force or persuasion.
-Rest too much after informing the Goblins about the location of the Grove? Next time you arrive, the goblins are already there and have broken down the front gate, but not killed everyone inside yet. (Or have just killed everyone, honestly if you rest after literally watching the goblins marching out to raid the grove, it's perfectly reasonable for the grove to be raided when you arrive the next day)
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Look the passage of time that occurs in games like Baldur's Gate 2 is considerably different from Baldur's Gate 3. In Baldur's Gate 2 you are forced to do side quests to earn money to pay the Thieves Guild in order that they might get you in to spell hold. That is considerably different from having a mind flayer tadpole in your head that is going to cause your flesh to tear off your body and your face to split open. It is also considerably different because you are told immediately upon entering The Druids Grove that the Goblins now could attack the Grove at any time. You are also told that The Druids are performing a ritual and will be completing it at any time now. So there is a much greater story element related to time in Baldur's Gate 3. You are literally told that you have a limited amount of time but then the game does not actually limit you on your time or provide any consequences for taking too long. So the Developers set the stage implying that this is a time-sensitive game but then they don't actually make it a time-sensitive game.
That is the first part of BG2. Once Irenicus steals your soul, it's implied you will lose yourself to the Bhaalspawn essence / slayer (and the slayer transformation actually kills your character if sustained for too long, in BG3 you don't even get harmed for using the tadpole powers). But in practice you can explore the countryside after Spellhold, while Irenicus is chilling with your soul in the elven city, because -despite all the forces he brought there - he will never suceed at his plans. Your character always arrives on time to stop him, even if it takes them a year.

It's the same design in practice.
To be honest, BG1+2 and many other games do not restrict resting at all or not very much.
Bg1+2 had a few timed quests, but most of the time time is not a problem.

I think Kingmaker was the only big RPG with hard timers, at least from the ones I played.
And even there the time limit is so large that you run only into trouble if you ignore quests for weeks or even month.

Since the game is timeless (no day/night cycle, no way to measure the time that has passed in game) real urgency is almost impossible to create.

Maybe resting should cost a resource, like every char needs a drink and a food to rest.
It does not really hinder you a lot since this stuff is cheap and can be found everywhere, but I think the question "Do you want to spend rations to rest for the night?" would have a psychologic effect.
It makes a difference if you can do something for free or if you have to pay a small prize every time.
Okay. First let me say again that I love Baldur's Gate 3. This is not complaining about the current system. This is me offering a suggestion that I think would make the game so much more exciting and intense and more realistic and more rewarding 4 players who actually put themselves in the role of their which is the very essence of role-playing games. If they don't change anyting about Baldur's Gate 3 I'm good. That's fine. I'm still going to play it and still going to enjoy it. All I'm saying is that I think the game would be so much more exciting and fun if you reward good role playing and provide consequences for bad role playing. I'm not even suggesting that the creators do much to really change the game. All I'm suggesting is that they tweak the current time system so that 2 long rest equals one day instead of 1 long rest. I'm also suggesting that certain events will occur if you waste too much time doing side quest and that they add a few little cutscenes to warn you that if you don't get your butt moving there will be negative consequences. Lastly I'm suggesting that they untie dialogue to Camping so that I am not punished for not long resting after every 5 minutes of gameplay. The whole point is to enhance what is already there so that I am not being punished for playing the game according to what makes the most sense based on the scenarios I'm presented with. So this should not have any effect on anyone unless they are really dragging their feet in the game. What I'm suggesting is that the Developers set a time limit like maybe 4-6 days. Each day has two long rest. That's 8-12 Long rest. That's also 16-24 short rest. If you can't beat the entirety of act 1 using 8-12 Long rest and 16-24 short rest there is something wrong with your gameplay. You deserve at that point to have goblins Wipeout The Druids Grove.

So I don't understand why everyone is so resistant to this. I am not suggesting that they make it so that players can't do side quests or even all the side quests in the First Act. I'm just saying that I want the creators to make it so that they keep up the urgency of the main quest by providing reasonable consequences 2 inaction.

And yeah. The pace of the game is drags down by item management and searching for items. So I would like something to make searching easier.
Originally Posted by Madscientist
To be honest, BG1+2 and many other games do not restrict resting at all or not very much.
Bg1+2 had a few timed quests, but most of the time time is not a problem.

I think Kingmaker was the only big RPG with hard timers, at least from the ones I played.
And even there the time limit is so large that you run only into trouble if you ignore quests for weeks or even month.

Since the game is timeless (no day/night cycle, no way to measure the time that has passed in game) real urgency is almost impossible to create.

Maybe resting should cost a resource, like every char needs a drink and a food to rest.
It does not really hinder you a lot since this stuff is cheap and can be found everywhere, but I think the question "Do you want to spend rations to rest for the night?" would have a psychologic effect.
It makes a difference if you can do something for free or if you have to pay a small prize every time.


Well, it matters for first two hours of the game (or less) until the player realizes that the game is throwing food at him everywhere.
Originally Posted by grysqrl
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by grysqrl
Sure, my character's responses will be all over the place. As a player, I feel let down by how hard they sell the danger and the urgency (most of the companions make a point about how important speed is) and then how quickly they back off of it.

There is no way to make it more of an urgency, unless you say make it like XCOM where there is an actual time limit and your days mattered. This is not that type of game, of course they are going to slow down the urgency and then project a new goal to "stop" the tadpole. Otherwise you would have a 2 hour game. You are trying to project real world logic onto game theory and there is only so much that will line up that way. I mean that is at least one thing that CP2077 did, is their progression of the invasive "virus".

Not to mention, we have no idea what it is going to happen after the first chapter. We haven't even been able to see the closing of that chapter.
The whiplash of going from "this is the only thing that matters" to "there is no urgency at all" is what I'm hoping they will tone down. Maybe they shouldn't sell the urgency so hard up front. Don't have Gale and Lae'zel know (or tell you) what ceremorphosis is. So you know there's a tadpole in your head and that you want to do something about it, but you don't know that you should only have a few days to live. That could change the tone from a desperate race against the clock into a mystery to be unraveled.

I personally think this is a valid opinion. After all it isn't till Omeleum that you get concrete fact that something is inhibiting the tadpole's growth. If some people think that not enough has been made to reduce the haste, that's fair enough, because it's their particular experience of the storyline which is subjective.

I can see quite an easy out for this if the developers took notice. You know the drow was infected, but the tadpole was seemingly altered according to Halsim's notes. You meet a true soul who thinks you are one as well. You can speak to both of these after death. Surely one of the most important questions you could ask is HOW LONG AGO WERE YOU INFECTED/INIATIATED/MADE A TRUE SOUL? Then you have at least an idea of your timeframe, plus really big motivation to explore the mystery. To hammer this point home one of your companions could surmise that you too have this amount of time left too. A really easy fix to an issue that some players seem to have with the game's narrative.

As Gray Ghost said it is insane that they have gated the Ethel information behind those choices and the willingness to accept a really crippling penalty. The information adds so much to the game, pushes you as a player AND character to dig deeper. I would really change that scene and reduce the penalty.

I'm also not arguing that you shouldn't be able to ignore this and play the game as if you still have that sense of urgency. I think a good crpg gives you choice and it does seem to penalise those who don't want to rest as much as the game is currently prompting them.

I just think it should be playable at whatever pace you the player choose and you should be given a decent story reason to do so.

ps the point about BG2 is true, there really is no good rp reason to experience a large portion of the game
Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
Originally Posted by The Old Soul
Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
Once you go to the grove...

You encounter Nettie who tells you about the Drow, who also didn't change, and had a tadpole exit his body after death. Then you come across the dying dwarf, whose tadpole didn't change him even in lieu of him being wounded to the point of death. If those aren't the first clues that ceremorphosis is not so imminent of a threat as you suspected, then I don't know what is.

Of course you want it out of your head, but the necessity to do it as quickly as possible, starts to be removed from that point forward.

Those are only clues to suggest the process is slowed, and that that's weird. Which is irrelevant. As I already said, only the conclusive statement that the process is *STOPPED*, not slowed, stopped, matters at all.
The process having been slowed only serves to say "you're lucky to have not turned yet, but you still need to devote 999% of yourself to being cured this hour so you don't turn next hour."
You should have turned earlier, but since it was slowed, you're about to turn right now instead. There is still no basis for toning down the rush until you know for certain there's no deadline at all.
Getting it out as quickly as possible is fully a necessity until you know about the Stasis.

Except right from the beginning, you start getting clues that the dire "OMFG IMMA TURN INTO A MINDFLAYER BY TOMORROW" scenario, isn't as pressing as you and your companions thought, and that sentiment only gets stronger, the longer you play. If you want to roleplay ignorance, that's fine, but the game is giving you clue after clue about the fact that your situation is not nearly as dire, from a time perspective, as it seemed on the nautiloid.

Jesus Christ it's like you don't speak English.

What happens throughought is NOT "Oh, huh, there's not really an urgent issue here."
It's "Ok, wow, you haven't turned yet? Normally people would have turned by now. But *YOU ARE GOING TO TURN TONIGHT INSTEAD OF LAST NIGHT LIKE MOST PEOPLE*.

Acknowledging that the process of you turning is going slower than usual means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING untill the deadline can be REMOVED, not just delayed.
Because the thing about the deadline, is that it was never delayed, you were just past it. The deadling was two days ago, and you need to be frantically trying to fix the problem because there is no telling how quickly you'll turn now that you are past the deadline. Nothing Nettie says changes this. Nothing Halsin says changes this. Seeing that dwarf die doesn't change this. Astarion acting like Mass Effect's Illusive Man isn't even relevant to this. The people you see with their own tadpoles can only verifiably be knows to have had them for a matter of days, while players are out here spending 3 months in camp because they long rest every 2 minutes or after getting a single papercut. Only Omeluum does anything to change this.

You accuse me of "Feigning ignorance" by still considering the situation an emergency. The truth is that your PC is just being a straight and plain moron by not treating the still urgent issue as such.
And if you want to roleplay as such that's cool, but it should be the person roleplaying a fool that gets the negative effects, that the one roleplaying someone taking the serious matter seriously.

It's really quite simple.
You could have one character, who continutes to take it seriously, because it's serious, recognizing how insignificant "it's going slower" is. The proceed to find a cure in time because they rushed like they should.
Then you have another character, who took all these suggestion that it was slower to heart, then died halfway through the process of finding a cure because they were going slow af and did not have an infinite amount of time, just an arbitrarily longer than normal amount of time.
Sigh. The point.

1. Days are too short. Dialogue is tied to days ending, so I HAVE to end day too much to get dialogue. Therefore, I am forced to play the way that makes me rest too much or I don't get dialogue.

2. Good items can only be found by painstakingly searching everything as if I have all the time in the world. This slows down the games pace. Therefore, I can't play the game at a faster pace so I am penalized.

3. I am never rewarded more for playing well, so what's the point of playing well? Everybody is a winner and gets a trophy. Yay.
Originally Posted by The Old Soul
Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
Originally Posted by The Old Soul
Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
Once you go to the grove...

You encounter Nettie who tells you about the Drow, who also didn't change, and had a tadpole exit his body after death. Then you come across the dying dwarf, whose tadpole didn't change him even in lieu of him being wounded to the point of death. If those aren't the first clues that ceremorphosis is not so imminent of a threat as you suspected, then I don't know what is.

Of course you want it out of your head, but the necessity to do it as quickly as possible, starts to be removed from that point forward.

Those are only clues to suggest the process is slowed, and that that's weird. Which is irrelevant. As I already said, only the conclusive statement that the process is *STOPPED*, not slowed, stopped, matters at all.
The process having been slowed only serves to say "you're lucky to have not turned yet, but you still need to devote 999% of yourself to being cured this hour so you don't turn next hour."
You should have turned earlier, but since it was slowed, you're about to turn right now instead. There is still no basis for toning down the rush until you know for certain there's no deadline at all.
Getting it out as quickly as possible is fully a necessity until you know about the Stasis.

Except right from the beginning, you start getting clues that the dire "OMFG IMMA TURN INTO A MINDFLAYER BY TOMORROW" scenario, isn't as pressing as you and your companions thought, and that sentiment only gets stronger, the longer you play. If you want to roleplay ignorance, that's fine, but the game is giving you clue after clue about the fact that your situation is not nearly as dire, from a time perspective, as it seemed on the nautiloid.

Jesus Christ it's like you don't speak English.

What happens throughought is NOT "Oh, huh, there's not really an urgent issue here."
It's "Ok, wow, you haven't turned yet? Normally people would have turned by now. But *YOU ARE GOING TO TURN TONIGHT INSTEAD OF LAST NIGHT LIKE MOST PEOPLE*.

Acknowledging that the process of you turning is going slower than usual means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING untill the deadline can be REMOVED, not just delayed.
Because the thing about the deadline, is that it was never delayed, you were just past it. The deadling was two days ago, and you need to be frantically trying to fix the problem because there is no telling how quickly you'll turn now that you are past the deadline. Nothing Nettie says changes this. Nothing Halsin says changes this. Seeing that dwarf die doesn't change this. Astarion acting like Mass Effect's Illusive Man isn't even relevant to this. The people you see with their own tadpoles can only verifiably be knows to have had them for a matter of days, while players are out here spending 3 months in camp because they long rest every 2 minutes or after getting a single papercut. Only Omeluum does anything to change this.

You accuse me of "Feigning ignorance" by still considering the situation an emergency. The truth is that your PC is just being a straight and plain moron by not treating the still urgent issue as such.
And if you want to roleplay as such that's cool, but it should be the person roleplaying a fool that gets the negative effects, that the one roleplaying someone taking the serious matter seriously.

It's really quite simple.
You could have one character, who continutes to take it seriously, because it's serious, recognizing how insignificant "it's going slower" is. The proceed to find a cure in time because they rushed like they should.
Then you have another character, who took all these suggestion that it was slower to heart, then died halfway through the process of finding a cure because they were going slow af and did not have an infinite amount of time, just an arbitrarily longer than normal amount of time.


You come across multiple instances of "true souls" not have turned into mindflayers before you ever even get to Halsin. The game has already given you multiple clue that the tad pole in your head, is not "normal" as to what Lae'zael and the others know to be true of illithid tadpoles, that fact is what relieves the pressure that is conveyed in the very beginning. It's further corroborated and reinforced if you do Omeluum's quest.
You seem to be playing the game without paying any attention to the contextual clues that the narrator and the NPC's are giving you from the moment you meet Astarion going forward. I don't think I can help you with that. Maybe that's a failure on Larian's part that they didn't envision a portion of players wouldn't pick up on what they were trying to convey.
OMG Grudge. I am fully paying attention to the story and all the elements. I know the clues you refer to. You are totally missing the point.

It makes NO SENSE for me to long rest for 20 hours, wake up, run through the village,not even fight and have a character tell me they are tired. Then I have to rest for 24 hours or I miss dialogue. There is too much resting and ending days just so I get dialogue. I am punished unless I do something completely unreasonable. This scenario happens in the game A LOT.
Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
You come across multiple instances of "true souls" not have turned into mindflayers before you ever even get to Halsin. The game has already given you multiple clue that the tad pole in your head, is not "normal" as to what Lae'zael and the others know to be true of illithid tadpoles, that fact is what relieves the pressure that is conveyed in the very beginning. It's further corroborated and reinforced if you do Omeluum's quest.
You seem to be playing the game without paying any attention to the contextual clues that the narrator and the NPC's are giving you from the moment you meet Astarion going forward. I don't think I can help you with that. Maybe that's a failure on Larian's part that they didn't envision a portion of players wouldn't pick up on what they were trying to convey.

I picked up exactly on the contextual clues, which stated the process has been merely *SLOWED*, not *SOLVED* and that you can still turn *ANY MOMENT NOW*, because you are already past the standard deadline.
Saying that your situation is weird because you should have turned already in no way implies you aren't about to turn now. It just implies it took longer than usual, not that it isn't happening, and not that it isn't about to happen.

If you could find a true soul that's verifiably been infected for months on end already, that would be one thing. But you don't. Every true soul, be they companion, dead when you found them, or killed by you, can only be verifiably infected for the same length of time you were. Even with Gut, you know she was already there before you, and not on the mindflayer ship, but you have no way of knowing if she was infected the day before you, the week, or what, so you can only treat it as her having been infected the same instant as you. So they are all just as liable to turn overnight as you are.

The first, and only, contextual clue that you don't need to be worried is Omeluum.
And you don't even need to do his quest by the way, in the very first conversation he tells you about the stasis. If you let him brain scan you at least.
You, Grudgebearer, have been picking up on something they DIDN'T convey. Omeluum presents the first and only reasoning for thinking the way you are.
Again, saying the process is slowed means absolutely nothing. It has no significance. Only saying it has been stopped entirely, i.e. Omeluum telling you about the stasis, has any significance whatsoever. Your doctor telling you the rate of your cancer's growth has slowed is an absolutely worthless statement which has no effect on what you should be doing, until the doctor can say it's cured.
To treat anything before Omeluum as anything other than this is patent stupidity. If one wants to roleplay as such that's a-ok, but they should give that character the lowest rollable intelligence of 3, which we can't even do since the game uses point buy.
Editing my initial post because it came across a little too aggressive, but you should be very careful about statements you make about cancer, a real world problem which directly affects people. "Your doctor telling you the rate of your cancer's growth has slowed is an absolutely worthless statement..." is not a great thing to be saying, neither true nor tactful.

Who cares what you think of others' playstyles to be honest? Play the game your own way. And if you're looking for a reward give yourself a pat on the back or a round of applause.

btw Halsin specifically states the ceremorphosis has been slowed, but to be honest if your character hasn't worked that out by the time you've taken all those long rests maybe he'll never work it out.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
And that is exactly my point. If you want the game to go from good to EXCELLENT, you need to drive the narrative. You need to reward players for driving harder and challenging themselves, not the opposite. The game, right now, rewards me more if I don't drive towards the goal. If I carefully move around the map, searching every pixel, I find better weapons, armor, magic items, books, tomes, etc. that give me more context and story. If I rest a lot, I get more dialogue and character development.

I'm saying that Larian needs to do the opposite to make the game an incredible experience. Drive players to the helm of the mind flayer ship.

This isn't a action adventure...
Originally Posted by The Old Soul
Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
You come across multiple instances of "true souls" not have turned into mindflayers before you ever even get to Halsin. The game has already given you multiple clue that the tad pole in your head, is not "normal" as to what Lae'zael and the others know to be true of illithid tadpoles, that fact is what relieves the pressure that is conveyed in the very beginning. It's further corroborated and reinforced if you do Omeluum's quest.
You seem to be playing the game without paying any attention to the contextual clues that the narrator and the NPC's are giving you from the moment you meet Astarion going forward. I don't think I can help you with that. Maybe that's a failure on Larian's part that they didn't envision a portion of players wouldn't pick up on what they were trying to convey.

I picked up exactly on the contextual clues, which stated the process has been merely *SLOWED*, not *SOLVED* and that you can still turn *ANY MOMENT NOW*, because you are already past the standard deadline.
Saying that your situation is weird because you should have turned already in no way implies you aren't about to turn now. It just implies it took longer than usual, not that it isn't happening, and not that it isn't about to happen.

If you could find a true soul that's verifiably been infected for months on end already, that would be one thing. But you don't. Every true soul, be they companion, dead when you found them, or killed by you, can only be verifiably infected for the same length of time you were. Even with Gut, you know she was already there before you, and not on the mindflayer ship, but you have no way of knowing if she was infected the day before you, the week, or what, so you can only treat it as her having been infected the same instant as you. So they are all just as liable to turn overnight as you are.

The first, and only, contextual clue that you don't need to be worried is Omeluum.
And you don't even need to do his quest by the way, in the very first conversation he tells you about the stasis. If you let him brain scan you at least.
You, Grudgebearer, have been picking up on something they DIDN'T convey. Omeluum presents the first and only reasoning for thinking the way you are.
Again, saying the process is slowed means absolutely nothing. It has no significance. Only saying it has been stopped entirely, i.e. Omeluum telling you about the stasis, has any significance whatsoever. Your doctor telling you the rate of your cancer's growth has slowed is an absolutely worthless statement which has no effect on what you should be doing, until the doctor can say it's cured.
To treat anything before Omeluum as anything other than this is patent stupidity. If one wants to roleplay as such that's a-ok, but they should give that character the lowest rollable intelligence of 3, which we can't even do since the game uses point buy.

And where did I say that it solved the problem? Nowhere.

What I've said, is exactly what the game tells you as you progress through it, that what you though was the case with the tadpole in your head, is not, that you are not in imminent danger of succumbing to ceramorphosis, which is why as you play the game, the early sense of "OMG WE HAVE TO GE THIS OUT ASAP" lessens, as you learn more information.
Why do you guys keep getting away from the true point?

I am punished for playing the game the way I want. You keep saying play it the way you want. If I do, I miss out on tons of stuff. I know it's not an action game. It's an RPG, and RPG means role playing and that means you put yourself in the role if the character.

But I can't because the game FORCES you to rest in order to get character development. I HAVE to play for 10 minutes and rest for 24 hours or I am punished by NOT getting what I like most about RPG's. Character development and interaction. I am not only NOT urged to get to the main quest. I am punished UNLESS I take a laid back approach to it.

So I literally can't play it the way I would REALLY like to because I am punished for good gameplay and rewarded for taking an I'll get to the main quest when I feel like it approach.

This said, I sincerely apologize for hurting anyone's feelings with the cancer thing. You are right. I didn't consider how that might be taken.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Why do you guys keep getting away from the true point?

I am punished for playing the game the way I want. You keep saying play it the way you want. If I do, I miss out on tons of stuff. I know it's not an action game. It's an RPG, and RPG means role playing and that means you put yourself in the role if the character.

But I can't because the game FORCES you to rest in order to get character development. I HAVE to play for 10 minutes and rest for 24 hours or I am punished by NOT getting what I like most about RPG's. Character development and interaction. I am not only NOT urged to get to the main quest. I am punished UNLESS I take a laid back approach to it.

So I literally can't play it the way I would REALLY like to because I am punished for good gameplay and rewarded for taking an I'll get to the main quest when I feel like it approach.

This said, I sincerely apologize for hurting anyone's feelings with the cancer thing. You are right. I didn't consider how that might be taken.

The game isn't "punishing you", you're just trying to roleplay your own narrative that is in direct conflict with the actual flow of the story.
As others have mentioned, it seems the opposing viewpoints in this thread represent how different people respond to the same set of facts.

On one hand, some see the conversations about the slowed ceremorphosis process as a sign that we have less to worry about. Since it seems to be happening more slowly, perhaps we can also take more time in figuring things out. The more normalized it is to see other infected humanoids staying the same, the more inclined we are to assume that care is more valuable than haste when it comes to solving our ailment. The disease appears to be complex and mysterious, without causing harm to the many hosts we are encountering. We might as well take this gift of an opportunity to solve things carefully, while we have time. If we rush from potential solution to solution, we might miss the hidden details that could actually give us a chance at solving this puzzle. *Spoiler* Considering we come up with three different leads on a cure upon reaching the druid grove (ethel, halsin/nettie, gith at risen road), it is going to take time to thoroughly check all three.

On the other hand, having NPCs tell you that the change isn't happening as quickly, and the process appears to be slowed, doesn't necessarily mean the risk of changing is no longer there. And since we don't know why the process has slowed, we don't know if that could be reversed at any given point in time. *Spoiler* Especially when we saw an infected human get turned into a mindflayer in an instant on the nautiloid, with just the push of a button. Even if we assume the tadpole is altered enough so that we won't progress in the ceremorphosis process naturally, we don't know whether our enemies have a mechanism to turn us at remotely, at-will, and what might cause them to make that decision. So under that logic, it is best to focus on removing the tadpole ASAP, regardless of how quickly the tadpole is developing, because every minute it remains in our head is another moment that we remain vulnerable to the unknown. Under this assumption, we don't have the luxury of time to learn everything we can, but rather we need to choose our best lead, and get there fast.

I don't think either approach is "wrong", I have my preference, but both views are based on logic. Seeing as Larian wants to "be your DM", the game will do best if it can feel responsive to different takes on the story, because different parties are inclined to have different views on the best course of action.
It NEVER implies that your are not in immenent danger until Omeluum states you are out of danger.
Nothing before him reduces the urgency in the slightest. Nothing says you don't have to handle this asap but him.
Rather, the longer you go (before meeting him) the level to which you are in immenent danger grows. Not shrinks, grows. The threat to you is bigger and bigger because more and more time has passed pushing you closer and closer to the point when you'll turn, and since you're already past the standard deadline there's no way of knowing when that point is, which for all intents and purposes means it's in two minutes.
The problem is not reduced, in any capacity, until it is solved entirely.
And yet those of us who choose to play in character and buy into the urgency are punished for it in the various ways this thread has covered.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Why do you guys keep getting away from the true point?

I am punished for playing the game the way I want. You keep saying play it the way you want. If I do, I miss out on tons of stuff. I know it's not an action game. It's an RPG, and RPG means role playing and that means you put yourself in the role if the character.

But I can't because the game FORCES you to rest in order to get character development. I HAVE to play for 10 minutes and rest for 24 hours or I am punished by NOT getting what I like most about RPG's. Character development and interaction. I am not only NOT urged to get to the main quest. I am punished UNLESS I take a laid back approach to it.

So I literally can't play it the way I would REALLY like to because I am punished for good gameplay and rewarded for taking an I'll get to the main quest when I feel like it approach.

This said, I sincerely apologize for hurting anyone's feelings with the cancer thing. You are right. I didn't consider how that might be taken.
By itself, the concept of missing stuff because of "playing the way you want" isn't inherently bad. It certainly can be, but isn't automatically.
Regardling loot, it could be said that only a character roleplayed as someone who searches everything should find everything, and someone who is roleplayed as not willing to take the time to do that should miss things.
But it would be nice to be able to roleplay the character that slowly searches everything without having to actually do that as the player, if we are so inclined, I grant you that.
When it comes to progressing, though, it really shouldn't feel worse to get things done with urgency than it does to exploit the "This is a videogame with no flow of time" mechanic.
Dude. Grudge. You're killing me. Are you seriously not understanding where Im coming from or are you just missing with me?

I'm not just trying to role play my own narrative and I am certainly not in direct conflict with the story.

Did your character wake up in a blazing mind flayer ship with imps and demons and dragons attacking with the ship on fire? How is it a direct conflict with the story to have imps or demons attack players if they don't move their butts?

Did the Tieflings not say the goblins knew where they were? Did they not say they would be coming soon to wipe them out so the PC needs to hurry before it's too late?

Did the druid's not say they would seal the grove in a matter of just a few days?

Do you think the hag is gonna steal Mayrina down in her lab and just wait 8 hours for your party to rest and then fight her?

If you flee from a Gith fight, rest for 24 hours and come back that the Gith will still be there?

Do you believe everything people tell you? A creepy toothy nasty bug thing CRAWLED INTO YOUR EYE!!! Would that not scare the Hells out of you and make you move your butt to get the cure no matter what the risk, especially because Halsin is captured and every moment you waste could be his last? One of your ONLY chances for a cure could die at any moment.

So you actually think Im being in direct conflict with the story because I want Larian to implement actual, sensible consequences if players casually make their way through the game?

For the sake of being a video game, I can understand your reasoning. Storywise? No. The story sets it up a move your butt or lots of people, including you, are going to die. But then the game DOES punish me if I don't rest every little bit of gameplay. I literally missed out on 90% of the character development in my first playthrough because I thought the game wanted me to push hard to use as few end days as possible only two discover I needed to long rest a LOT to get what I wanted most, to get to know the characters.

It's insanely in conflict with story to NOT hurry up and rescue Halsin and kill the gobbo leaders unless you are evil. In which case, if you don't care about them then great. My suggestions don't hurt you because you don't care if the gobbos kill them all in 6 days or not.

So why are you constantly arguing with me about story? How is what Im asking actually in conflict with the story?
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Dude. Grudge. You're killing me. Are you seriously not understanding where Im coming from or are you just missing with me?

I'm not just trying to role play my own narrative and I am certainly not in direct conflict with the story.

Did your character wake up in a blazing mind flayer ship with imps and demons and dragons attacking with the ship on fire? How is it a direct conflict with the story to have imps or demons attack players if they don't move their butts?

Did the Tieflings not say the goblins knew where they were? Did they not say they would be coming soon to wipe them out so the PC needs to hurry before it's too late?

Did the druid's not say they would seal the grove in a matter of just a few days?

Do you think the hag is gonna steal Mayrina down in her lab and just wait 8 hours for your party to rest and then fight her?

If you flee from a Gith fight, rest for 24 hours and come back that the Gith will still be there?

Do you believe everything people tell you? A creepy toothy nasty bug thing CRAWLED INTO YOUR EYE!!! Would that not scare the Hells out of you and make you move your butt to get the cure no matter what the risk, especially because Halsin is captured and every moment you waste could be his last? One of your ONLY chances for a cure could die at any moment.

So you actually think Im being in direct conflict with the story because I want Larian to implement actual, sensible consequences if players casually make their way through the game?

For the sake of being a video game, I can understand your reasoning. Storywise? No. The story sets it up a move your butt or lots of people, including you, are going to die. But then the game DOES punish me if I don't rest every little bit of gameplay. I literally missed out on 90% of the character development in my first playthrough because I thought the game wanted me to push hard to use as few end days as possible only two discover I needed to long rest a LOT to get what I wanted most, to get to know the characters.

It's insanely in conflict with story to NOT hurry up and rescue Halsin and kill the gobbo leaders unless you are evil. In which case, if you don't care about them then great. My suggestions don't hurt you because you don't care if the gobbos kill them all in 6 days or not.

So why are you constantly arguing with me about story? How is what Im asking actually in conflict with the story?

You are comparing apples to oranges in an attempt to justify you anger that you can't roleplay and go against the flow of the narrative. You aren't given information about the waiting too long to saving mayrina. You aren't given information about the waiting too long to seek out the Githyanki. You are given a plethora of information about the tadpole through the narrator, NPCs and context clues.

You just want to ignore that fact, and pretend that you are being punished because you've decided you want to disregard the additional information your characters receives, and roleplay rushing through the main quest because you believe in your heart of hearts that ceremorphosis is imminent, when it fact, it's not
Originally Posted by The Old Soul
It NEVER implies that your are not in immenent danger until Omeluum states you are out of danger.
Nothing before him reduces the urgency in the slightest. Nothing says you don't have to handle this asap but him.
Rather, the longer you go (before meeting him) the level to which you are in immenent danger grows. Not shrinks, grows. The threat to you is bigger and bigger because more and more time has passed pushing you closer and closer to the point when you'll turn, and since you're already past the standard deadline there's no way of knowing when that point is, which for all intents and purposes means it's in two minutes.
The problem is not reduced, in any capacity, until it is solved entirely.
And yet those of us who choose to play in character and buy into the urgency are punished for it in the various ways this thread has covered.

I never said you weren't in danger, but you are not, in imminent danger of turning into an illithid, that much is made clear to you as the story progresses.
Man, Grudge. I'm convinced. You and I are on different worlds. I think we're speaking 2 different languages. If anything, you and I are apples and oranges.

Am I insane? Someone else, please tell me if I'm just being crazy.

Grudge. Let me paste a nasty, toothy, tentacled worm under your eyelid. It's okay. I'll drug it first so that it's sleeping. I promise. It's gonna sleep for weeks. Oh. When it wakes up, it'll just turn your flesh inside out. It's okay. I drugged it though. You'll be fine for weeks.

Oh yeah. By the way. The only person who might be able to remove it ever is being held a few miles away in a prison cell by crazy, man eating creatures who might kill him at any moment.

What was that? Oh. You feel something squiggling beneath your eyelid? It's okay. Just sleep. You'll be fine. Promise. What? Oh. A demon visited you and wants that thing too? No worries. It's asleep. You're fine. Why don't you just sleep another 24 hours. You're fine.

You just woke up from sleeping 24 hours? All you did was run through a devastated village? Well, your friend wants to chat with you in private. Why don't you just call it a day and rest another 24 hours. It's okay. It's still asleep. You're fine. By the way, those goblins everyone has been scared of, you don't need to worry about them showing up either because I know everyone is worried and all, but I promise they aren't ever going to show up even if you sleep a thousand times.

And what's that? Some witch just kidnapped a girl and took her down into her underground lair? Well. You look tired. It's okay. Go rest for 24 hours and come back. She'll still be there waiting for your to come rescue the girl. Shes got nothing better to do than to stand in that one spot and wait for you to get there.

Some things don't have to be said specifically in a game. If you tell me everyone in my neighborhood is going to die in just a few days unless I do something, then that creates a sense of urgency. I can't be sleeping my days away without concern unless I really don't care about the people in my neighborhood.

And I don't care what anyone says, put a weird bug up your eye and you are going to want to get that thing out as soon as possible whether it is dormant or not. Geez. Just the actual thought of it makes my skin crawl.

But again, you are still missing my point. If I don't sleep a lot, I miss game content. So, what's Im saying is that while many are afraid on this thread that if they put time limits on things they won't be able to explore everything in time, so they'll miss out on content, Im saying the same thing about the game right now. I miss out on story content unless I explore every little thing and sleep a lot...like I mean sleeping 24 hours for every 30 minutes that Im awake.

So, the point is that instead of rewarding players for sleeping less and playing based on the storyline, the game rewards people for sleeping more and playing in a way that is quite contrary to the real and true storyline.

I should get better gear, more dialogue, and satisfying adventure results from rescuing Halsin quicker, saving Mayina without long resting, defeating the Gith versus running from them, discovering Kahga's treachery in a timely manner, etc. Likewise, I shouldn't be able to save Mayrina if I go nap for 8 or more hours while the hag is escaping with her. The grove should be cut off by druids if I take too much time, etc,

This is a logical conclusion to all of these narratives in the story. What is against the flow of the story is to roam about acting like you don't have a wiggler swimming under your eyelid.

So. Tell me honestly. You like reading my comments. That's why you keep disagreeing with me and accusing me of going against the narrative. Right? Come on. Admit it.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Why do you guys keep getting away from the true point?

I am punished for playing the game the way I want.

You don't always get what you want.
Imma be Gale for a sec.

Fact 1. The game allows you to casually explore every area even if it is a blazing ship tearing through Hell with imps and demons and dragons attacking it. Does nobody else find that odd but me?

Fact 2. The game encourages you to only explore for a little bit every day before you should rest for the whole rest of the day. Doesn't that also seem strange? Most people, I would think, would be a wee bit in a hurry to get cured and save lives that are depending on you.

Fact 3. Companions will only chat with you if you rest for the whole rest of the day and only if you do so when they tell you they are tired and need to rest. Strange.

Fact 4. Companions and your main character often get tired real fast, sometimes when they've hardly done anything. Really weird.

Fact 5. Food heals you after a sword just slashed you spilling blood everywhere, and you can eat a whole rack of juicy baby back ribs in 3 seconds while a spider queen is trying to eat you. Hmm..

Fact 6. No matter how many days you take, those dreaded goblins never actually attack, and the druids never kick the tieflings out. So why is everyone worried about them? Just leave tieflings. Those gobbos ain't coming unless I decide to betray you all. Trust me.

Fact 7. You have a parasite in your head and the only cure might die soon. Is that not cause for alarm and urgency?

Fact 8. When I play this game, I get better rewards for sucking than I do for playing well. If I can get through the entirety of Act 1 without long rest, without searching every nook, I get less cool items, never trigger Raphael's cutscene, never get to know the characters, etc. By playing well and strategically, I miss out on a lot. This was my first playthrough. I never learned Shadowhearts secrets, or Wyll's or Astarion's and suddenly they all wanted to sleep with me even though I hardly knew them. Why? Because I didn't rest. I pushed on, played well, and trued to waste as little time as possible. Second playthrough, I got tons of cool story items, lots of dialogue, etc. all because I slept a lot and played Hidden Objects like I had no pressing issues at all. Utterly insane.
Originally Posted by fallenj
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Why do you guys keep getting away from the true point?

I am punished for playing the game the way I want.

You don't always get what you want.

Lol. Dude. I know that. I even said I love the game. If they change nothing, fine. Im suggesting that if they want a truly epic, exciting game they have to implement some time sensitive gameplay and put fires, real consequences, under players' fannies.

If they just want a nice game that's fun and nice, don't change it. If they want "Holy crap, man! I barely saved those people just in time," you need to do more stuff to push players towards the main objective. Again. Reward good role playing. Punish bad role playing. That will turn BG3 from nice to AWESOME.
Biggest problem is that BG3 is a game with an urgent main quest, but time doesn't exist. Even time and days that are showen in dialog log are seem to be tied to playtime and has nothing to do with story progression or long rests. (Day 2 for me started after I got tadpole powers, wich is 4 or 5 long rest at least)

Larian could do something in the same vein as Pathfinder Kingmaker, by making us wait for main story to progress at some points, and giving players time to explore. They don't even have to tie it to time.
Example:
Go to a druid grove befor resting? No fight, they send you evay saying come back tomorow. When you press rest button show time of day and a notification "You have some time to explore, do you realy whant to skip the day"

Edit:
Another solution could be to use a variant rule in which short rest is 5 minutes, and long rest is an hour. Only send as to camp and end the day when it is necessary for the story. It removes the fear of long rests, whithout actualy affecting anything mechanicaly (comparing to how unrestricted rests are now).
I'm not interested in the game using a carrot and stick approach to control the narrative and turn the game into BG3: Zerg Rush. If you "push the player towards the main objective" all the time, you will end up with a game that tries to take the steering wheel from the player too often. I'd rather the game lets the player drive however they want.

The issue with the current design is that so much content is tied to camping, the narrative starts to break if you don't spam rests often enough. So the narrative is build around a specific playstyle. Changing this design so that npc content would become available as you travel in a party would go a long way, without limiting players too much.
Personally, Once I saw that the tadpoles they were using on us were special in such a way that they could be triggered by a remote psionic key to instantaneously evoke a full and complete transformation in a matter of seconds, that was all the narrative proof I needed to know that urgency was absolute. We see it in the ship, at the start.

It literally does not matter that we aren't turning by the normal clock; we've already seen first hand that we're not playing by those rules. What we DO know is that the thing we have in our brains can be remote triggered at will, and could be at any moment if we come into contact with one of the creatures involved. It might be in functional stasis now, but clearly the ship we were on is NOT the only source of these tadpoles, and so somewhere out there are beings who have the ability to evoke a sudden and instant full transformation on us, with us having zero ways of resisting it or preventing it unless we can get this bug out of our brain before we meet one of them. No amount of "it's not doing anything right now" takes away from that game-given fact, and that game-given fact means that any even marginally sane person would be acting with the utmost urgency and not daring to waste any more time than absolutely necessary to pursue a solution.

The game is strongly in conflict with itself. Its story narrative is one of absolute urgency, while its mechanical requirements are of absolute laziness and procrastination. Regardless of your outlook, this is a major problem. Personally I think it's one that should be fixed at a deign level, rather than a narrative one.
Ah ha ! I'm not the only one who remember what we saw during on the nautiloid ! Which, obviously, is likely to get basically speeded-through these days.

Yes, the characters gather information make them (and us players) realise that our tadpoles are not turning us into Mind Flayers the way they do normally. I can't remember for sure, but I am under the vague impression that Larian has bumped up the in-world clues and sources telling us "actually, it's fine, your tadpole is not behaving normally", in Patch 3 and/or 4.

No, that doesn't mean we have less urgency. Someone has the power to turn us by snapping their fingers. We won't know who, where they are based, what's the range of their remote control, and when they'll want to turn us (and possible dozens or hundreds of other True Souls).


Originally Posted by Niara
The game is strongly in conflict with itself. Its story narrative is one of absolute urgency, while its mechanical requirements are of absolute laziness and procrastination. Regardless of your outlook, this is a major problem.

Absolutely. A majority of topics discussed in the forums are related to Larian's vision : what they aim for the game to be. Everyone has their tastes, and may wish that Larian's goal was closer to their preferences. But this is not about the vision. It is a case of the game not being logically consistent with itself, sending mixed messages, and using mechanisms, writing and UI that are not compatible with each other. And it's one of way too many such cases.

I understand that BG3 is not made by 3 people working in the same room. Although I would presume the number of designers and writers is not too high. But it often feels as if there's no central (elder?) brain, and that the game doesn't know what it wants to be and what it wants us to do.

Originally Posted by Niara
Personally I think it's one that should be fixed at a design level, rather than a narrative one.

Probably. I mean, I haven't thought much of it (... too many things that are plainly wrong). But I think it's going to be quite harder to change the story (as it is a lot more tied to animation and voice acting) so, by default, working on the mechanisms is quite possibly the only way to fix this issue. Well ... there's always the N+1th way, which is not fixing it at all.
Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
Ah ha ! I'm not the only one who remember what we saw during on the nautiloid !

To be fair, this isn't something every character will see. Mine generally listen to Lae'zel and don't go around pushing random buttons. Or is there another insta-transformation moment I'm forgetting?

I think the new dialogue with Nettie goes a long way toward explaining why things aren't so urgent. We also pick up Wyll in the Grove, who takes a much more laid-back attitude toward the search for a cure, but by that point we've listened to the others panicking for so long that we're not likely to go along with his viewpoint.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
I'm not interested in the game using a carrot and stick approach to control the narrative and turn the game into BG3: Zerg Rush. If you "push the player towards the main objective" all the time, you will end up with a game that tries to take the steering wheel from the player too often. I'd rather the game lets the player drive however they want.

The issue with the current design is that so much content is tied to camping, the narrative starts to break if you don't spam rests often enough. So the narrative is build around a specific playstyle. Changing this design so that npc content would become available as you travel in a party would go a long way, without limiting players too much.

Exactly. I think this is the misunderstanding a lot are having about my post. I'm not saying let's make BG3 into BG3: Zerg Rush. Maybe I'm saying that for the prologue, but it's a prologue with a burning nautiloid being attacked by dragons and Gith and demons and imps. You are 100% in a hostile environment with NO friends or allies that you can trust. It goes 100% against the story to have your PC roam around the ship like you aren't blazing through the Hells. So yes. For that prologue scene, it should maybe be a bit more like a "get your butt in gear" game.

But even with that, I'm not saying don't give players any ability to roam a little. See. That's where a lot of people are misunderstanding. I'm not saying that Larian should take away people's abilities to explore. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying give exploration a time limit when a time limit is being called for in the narrative. If you are on a blazing nautiloid with dragons and demons, etc. battling with one another all around you, you should not be casually strolling about searching every nook. Even if it is nothing more than a clock in the top corner like in Final Fantasy 7 counting down to let you know that you need to not take too long searching all the crap in every room, at least that's something to get the adrenaline pumping.

Final Fantasy 7 is actually the perfect example of what I'm talking about with creating excitement and tension. I remember the first time I played the prologue of that game and had to determine how much time I'd need to get out of the first reactor before it blew. Man! Every battle was freaking me out. I couldn't get through the battle fast enough because I knew I was on a time limit. It was SO exciting!

Why was Final Fantasy 7 such a good RPG? It did stuff like that. It got your blood racing, when the narrative called for it, tugged at your emotions, etc. If Larian wants BG3 to be the next best RPG, they need to also do stuff like that.

So what I'm suggesting is that in the prologue they get your blood pumping. Keep you moving. It's the prologue, for goodness sake. It's not supposed to be the time when you explore every little area of the map. Prologue's are for teaching the mechanics of the game and to hook you into the story. That's the purpose of them. You should naturally be more limited during the prologue while it is teaching you the basics of the game.

So yes. I was suggesting even limiting item slots so that people would get the hint that you can't pick up much anyway so don't waste too much time in the prologue on searching everything. This is also why I suggested an Auto-Search feature so that you could find the gear you might actually care about easier, so that you can keep the pace of the opening sequence of the game. Searching and exploring everything is not only not realistic but it slows the pace of the opening scenario down tremendously. An Auto-Search would quickly reveal what items are good, you could quickly pick them up, and then you could move on without too much treasure hunting in the opening sequence of the game.

Then, once you crash on the beach, now you should be able to explore, pick up stuff, etc. at your own pace, WITHIN REASON.

WITHIN REASON means that they remove End Day and replace it with 2 Long Rests per Day with still having 2 Short Rests for every Long Rest. This is more in line with D&D 5e anyway. Then I'm suggesting that they absolutely need to make it so that I can still trigger ALL the dialogue and character development whether I Long Rest a lot or not. Then I'm suggesting that for those of us who DO want to pick up the pace, Larian provides an OPTION in the OPTIONS SETTINGS allowing us to enable Auto-Search so that we can just have our characters make a Perception check to allow us to find all the good stuff in a room without having to sift through all the boring, useless junk. Still leave it so that players who want to search everything can do so, but give players who don't like this Hidden Objects style of gaming the ability to quick search. Then, lastly, I'm saying that yes, some events make sense to be triggered after a certain amount of time goes by.

But with this last item, believe me. I'm not trying to strip players from having the ability to explore the entire map and do all the side quests. That's completely contrary to my point. I myself still want to search and explore the whole map and do all the side quests. Certainly don't take that away from the game.

What I mean by time-sensitive events is really putting some sort of realistic limit on how many Long Rests (remember I'm saying 2 Long Rests now per day) you use before things start to happen in the game. Make it 3 days. Make it 6 days. Make it 8 days. Whatever Larian thinks is a reasonable amount of time before something truly bad happens, set some sort of limit on how many DAYS (2 long rests per day) that people can use. Then, add some story elements warning players that their time limit is nearing expiration. They'd better stop using Long Rests so much and start using their healing items and short rests more instead of always long resting to fully recover.

And yes, some events make no sense to allow players to long rest during those events. This is why I brought up Mayrina and the hag. You shouldn't be able to long rest when a hag is kidnapping a girl. The hag is not just going to wait for you to return. There should be some consequence for long resting during this scene. Maybe it isn't shipping Mayrina off to Baldur's Gate. Maybe it's the hag has more minions spawned when you come back because you spent 8 hours sleeping to recover magic and health. Maybe she has more traps laid. SOMETHING should be different when you return to face her because she had 8 hours to prepare for your return.

That is my point. Right now, you can long rest a thousand times and no gobbos attack, no druids kick people out, the hag just waits for you to get to her lair and face her, etc.

So, again, I'm not trying to take anything away from players. I'm trying to enhance the current gameplay. I'm trying to make it so that if I don't long rest all the time I can still enjoy all the elements of the game.
@OP

Jesus Christ man, just relax! This is just a pc game not real life. You should really experience some really hard things in real life so you would understand that there are more important things to worry about than some pc game. Honestly you made me so mad that it's hard to control my anger. Shut down your computer, get some help from professional and when you're better, maybe then you can try to play again, but remember that it's just a silly little game, nothing that has any real meaning.
Originally Posted by MrSam
@OP

Jesus Christ man, just relax! This is just a pc game not real life. You should really experience some really hard things in real life so you would understand that there are more important things to worry about than some pc game. Honestly you made me so mad that it's hard to control my anger. Shut down your computer, get some help from professional and when you're better, maybe then you can try to play again, but remember that it's just a silly little game, nothing that has any real meaning.

Whoa! What did I say that made you that mad? I sincerely apologize. Maybe I came across the wrong way. I'm honestly not understanding where certain people are coming from, is all. I'm trying to present my reasoning as to why I think the game would be better if my suggestions were implemented. I also don't understand why people are so against my suggestions.

I also am a bit frustrated, so that could be why I came across the wrong way. I feel like I'm trying to say "ABC" and there are people who are thinking I'm saying, "123".

So again, sorry to upset you. TOTALLY not my intent.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Exactly. I think this is the misunderstanding a lot are having about my post. I'm not saying let's make BG3 into BG3: Zerg Rush. Maybe I'm saying that for the prologue, but it's a prologue with a burning nautiloid being attacked by dragons and Gith and demons and imps. You are 100% in a hostile environment with NO friends or allies that you can trust. It goes 100% against the story to have your PC roam around the ship like you aren't blazing through the Hells. So yes. For that prologue scene, it should maybe be a bit more like a "get your butt in gear" game.
I don't think it is a good idea to make the player race through the tutorial areas while they might be still learning the controls. Especially since the party controls in BG3 are so clunky compared to most cRPGs. If the intro were too frustrating, people would just refund at that point. BG1 had a tutorial that didn't try to be all that realistic either, but was extensive enough to teach you the basics.

My preference would be to replace the camping trip with resting in that particular location, and add a chance to spawn an enemy ambush in dangerous areas. Just have everyone pull out a bedroll and maybe start a camp fire. Pathfinder Kingmaker did it this way, including characters being slow to wake up when attacked.

Camping could be limited to resting only in safe areas, but tbh I still don't see how npcs like Volo are supposed to follow the party to Moonrise towers.
Originally Posted by Niara
Personally, Once I saw that the tadpoles they were using on us were special in such a way that they could be triggered by a remote psionic key to instantaneously evoke a full and complete transformation in a matter of seconds, that was all the narrative proof I needed to know that urgency was absolute. We see it in the ship, at the start.
This.

Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
I think the new dialogue with Nettie goes a long way toward explaining why things aren't so urgent. We also pick up Wyll in the Grove, who takes a much more laid-back attitude toward the search for a cure, but by that point we've listened to the others panicking for so long that we're not likely to go along with his viewpoint.
Happy to hear that dialogue has been added to make things less urgent, although that doesn't necessarily address @Niara's point. Unless it does...I haven't played patch 4 so idk exactly what the dialogue is.
Good point that we've already been listening to panicking companions (especially Lae'zel, who seems like The Expert on illithids) up until that point so are less likely to really listen to Wyll.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Exactly. I think this is the misunderstanding a lot are having about my post. I'm not saying let's make BG3 into BG3: Zerg Rush. Maybe I'm saying that for the prologue, but it's a prologue with a burning nautiloid being attacked by dragons and Gith and demons and imps. You are 100% in a hostile environment with NO friends or allies that you can trust. It goes 100% against the story to have your PC roam around the ship like you aren't blazing through the Hells. So yes. For that prologue scene, it should maybe be a bit more like a "get your butt in gear" game.
I don't think it is a good idea to make the player race through the tutorial areas while they might be still learning the controls. Especially since the party controls in BG3 are so clunky compared to most cRPGs. If the intro were too frustrating, people would just refund at that point. BG1 had a tutorial that didn't try to be all that realistic either, but was extensive enough to teach you the basics.

My preference would be to replace the camping trip with resting in that particular location, and add a chance to spawn an enemy ambush in dangerous areas. Just have everyone pull out a bedroll and maybe start a camp fire. Pathfinder Kingmaker did it this way, including characters being slow to wake up when attacked.

Camping could be limited to resting only in safe areas, but tbh I still don't see how npcs like Volo are supposed to follow the party to Moonrise towers.

Again, I don't mean to make it seem like I'm rushing players too much in the prologue. I'm just saying some sort of sense of urgency at least.

Perhaps a better idea to illustrate what I'm saying is that the room you start in is on fire. Make it so that your character says, "The fire is spreading. I need to get out of here. Now!" after you've been poking around for a minute or so to get your bearings. Thus, teaching players that fires are not static in the game. They can spread. Then, in the room with the devourer, allow the player to search around a bit, find the devourer, etc. Then after the devourer, a small cutscene. Demons burst into the room you are in from the room you had just left. Your character spots them from where the devourer scene occurs, up on the higher level. The camera pans to the exit, indicating to you that this is where you need to go. Cutscene ends with a dragon bursting into the room, snatching one of the demons and gulping it down. The other demons attack the dragon. They continue fighting right there near you while you are hurrying out of the room.

This is the kinds of things I'm talking about. It doesn't have to be exactly what I've suggested. I'm just looking for something to build more excitement and keep the pace up.

As for the rest of what you said, I totally agree. I would LOVE if they replaced the camping trip with resting in whatever location you're in. I'd love random chance encounters. The more dangerous the area, the less likely you will rest safely. Rest in the druid's grove, no chance of attack. Shoot! Even make the camp somewhere in the druid's grove that I can actually physically get to and I'd be happy with it. Right now, resting in this nebulous camp that doesn't really exist anywhere on the map is weird.

The only reason I suggested otherwise is because my thought is that Larian wouldn't have to tweak the game THAT much to implement what I was suggesting. All the elements are already there for them to implement my suggestions. They would just need to tweak what they have built already to make it happen. Well...knowing IT...I know it's not as easy I just made it sound, but I'd think it'd be easier than trying to implement what I'd really want, which is what I just stated here.
Originally Posted by MrSam
@OP

Jesus Christ man, just relax! This is just a pc game not real life. You should really experience some really hard things in real life so you would understand that there are more important things to worry about than some pc game. Honestly you made me so mad that it's hard to control my anger. Shut down your computer, get some help from professional and when you're better, maybe then you can try to play again, but remember that it's just a silly little game, nothing that has any real meaning.
If you're really that heated I suggest you step away from the computer.
the parasite story is really reminiscent of the spring mage ring around the neck of sin2, don't think that's good either, it's just the same and honestly it annoyed me at the time that I had a flaw in the sense of a neck ring or now a parasite in my eye .. I'd rather have something supernatural in the spirit, but I also find hectic and targeted coming back to this topic bad.
Can we please stop making assumptions about other people's lives and gaming habits?
Guys look. It's not about gaming habits and lives. It's about how the game currently forces people to rest a lot, which is exactly the opposite of what people should be doing if goblins are threatening to kill a bunch of people and your only hope for a cure that you know of could die at any moment.

The game forces you to End Day in order to have dialogue with characters and character development. So it isn't about gaming habits. The point is that unless I rest even when I don't really need to, I miss out on cool stuff.

All I am really asking for, when you really come down to it, is that they untie the dang dialogue from End Day so that I don't have to End Day in order to have character development. That is my main beef. I'm also asking that they stop having characters say they want to go to bed when the whole party is full health and has hardly done anything just because I need to trigger a dialogue.

I feel like you guys are trying to prevent me from being able to play the game the way I want because you are afraid I'm trying to take away some sort of element that allows you to play the game you want.

But think about all that I suggested. How does it really hurt the common player?

1. Create an Auto-Search function that is an Option you can enable in the Options menu so that if you don't want to search every room the way you do now, you can just trust a Perception check. If you want to search the game as you do now, don't enable the Auto-Search. Let me have it, though, so that me and players like me can use Auto-Search and keep the pace of the game going without having to play Hidden Objects.

2. Untie dialogue from End Day. That way, if I don't End Day all the time, I still get to have the same dialogues all the rest of you have who End Day whenever a dialogue is available.

3. 2 Long Rests a day instead of End Day. How does this hurt you? Instead of each time you Long Rest you end an entire 24-hour day, it only makes 8 hours go by. So you get 2 Long Rests per day so that if you do need a Long Rest more regularly you aren't making an entire 24 hours go by; just 8. This makes it more believable that goblins haven't attacked the grove yet if you long rest a bunch of times. Again, doesn't hurt you. It just makes the game a bit more believable for people like me. It gives you MORE freedom to Long Rest without each Long Rest being a full day. I might be willing to Long Rest more if I know it is only 8 hours.

4. Time Sensitive events. This is the only one that I admit might be perceived as hurting other players' gameplay, but honestly it would ONLY give players the freedom to trigger events like the fight at the Druid's Grove without being evil. It rewards players for doing things in a timely manner, like dethroning Kahga, so druids help in the fight. And if you have 2 Long Rests a day, even 3 days is 6 Long Rests and 12 Short. So that's still a lot of Long and Short Rests, and that's half the time I was suggesting.

The number of long rests isn't my suggestion. It's that they limit Long Rests in some way, triggering certain events after you have done X number of Long Rests. So I'm just suggesting that after X number of days from the time you get the quest to save Halsin, someone says, "I just learned the gobbos are about to attack. They'll do so in X days, we think." Then you know you have X number of Long Rests left before they attack. And even if you don't do it in that many days, the game's not a failure. You may have not succeeded in accomplishing that mission in time, but the main quest still continues. Shoot! They could even make it so that the tieflings and/or druids still survive if the gobbos attack and you raid the base while they're out.

So what I'm saying is that I'm trying to offer suggestions that create MORE freedom for players. That's the part I don't get. Allowing time sensitive quests allows you to have even more ways to do things in the game. Race to save Halsin before the gobbos attack, or sneak into the base while they are fighting the tieflings and/or druids. You decide how you want the story to go. If you know Lae'zel might leave if you don't get to the Gith in x number of Long Rests, then prioritize that quest and get there because you don't want her to leave the party, OR, if you don't care that much about her being in the party, ignore her demands. Right now. Lae'zel is just a nag about getting to the creche and she doesn't follow it up with action if you never go there. Same with Wyll and the gobbos. It's about prioritizing what you want to prioritize and playing the way you want, giving you MORE options. It is meant to give MORE flavor to the game, giving you more endings based on decisions you make.

Roleplaying is all about molding the story based on your decisions. Right now, there are only two decisions that affect the story. Long rest a lot and develop characters and story or long rest very little and miss out on it all. No matter how fast or slow I go, it doesn't matter. My choices don't really matter. I'm moving towards either being good and killing gobbos or working with them and killing tieflings and druids. That's it. No deviations.
THANK YOU! While this discussion is robust, aren't we kind of forgetting that this is an EA game. We don't even know what the true aim of the main quest is at this point in Chapter 1. Plus the devs want us to discover this very point even as we learn their version of this BG game. I simply suspend belief (point of the game, right?) and reel in the clues as I hook them. Meaning my "feelings" about where I am in the quest to resolve my condition changes as I play the game. I'm sure at least some of the concerns voiced here will be addressed as the game moves ever onward towards release.
Maybe you're right. Maybe they are implementing time sensitive events already. During my most recent gaming, is spotted Ed and his siblings, but I didn't trigger dialogue with them. I did something else, Ended Day and found Ed dead all alone. His siblings were gone. I never had tus dialogue with his siblings.
I thought the film, The Godfather, was a terrific film.

I sat down to read the book, and after 15 attempts, I still could not get past the first few pages - I simply did not enjoy the writing style, pacing and word choice.

That did not make it a bad book - it simply was not my cup of tea. I certainly was not going to tell the author to rewrite his book. Plenty of other people enjoyed it immensely.

Larian is writing a "book", Baldur's Gate 3. If you dislike the writing style, pacing, characterization and so on of their "book", the answer isn't to demand they rewrite the book.

The answer is, put the book aside, and move on to a book that meets your preferences.

I for one want to read Larian's book, not the book I would choose to write if I myself was writing it.

It is their story to tell, and if I find the story to be boring, to have poor characterization, to have a ridiculous plot, I will have the option of putting the book down, and reading a different book.

This entire argument is inane at this point - the OP stated why he dislikes the story. Other folks have stated why they have no problem with the story logic.

Debates over whether the OP is correct, or those with differing opinions are correct are of ZERO merit - because you are not discussing mechanics, you are simply debating whether the story told meets your particular tastes, and nobody needs to defend their "taste" just as nobody should have another persons tastes "forced" on them as being the "right ones".

Alternate mechanic proposals are always welcome - and some of those made by the OP may be of merit - but the justification for these proposals should not be "because I personally dislike the plot/mythology/pacing of the story. "
Sigh. It was suggestions I thought would make the game better. It's early access. That's what we're supposed to do. This is not like a story already written. The author is still writing it. That's the difference.

I LOVE this game. I LOVE the story. I just thought it could be more exciting if they limited long rests a bit by having different consequences if you used too many because that would make sense based on story content. That's all. Different endings based on how you play the game, and not making players rest every 5 minutes to have character development.
I assure you the Godfather book is not a good book. Francis Ford Coppola himself, who adapted it into a screenplay, described it as trashy schlock. The movie is infinitely better.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Sigh. It was suggestions I thought would make the game better. It's early access. That's what we're supposed to do. This is not like a story already written. The author is still writing it. That's the difference.

I LOVE this game. I LOVE the story. I just thought it could be more exciting if they limited long rests a bit by having different consequences if you used too many because that would make sense based on story content. That's all. Different endings based on how you play the game, and not making players rest every 5 minutes to have character development.
The story is almost certainly complete. They might tweak it here and there but they are no way rewriting the whole thing.
You should get the dreams just the same if you don't use the tadpole powers. It's a very sensible option to try to keep the parasite as passive as possible until you can get rid of it. But not getting these scenes punishes the player for thinking smart.
Quote
The story is almost certainly complete. They might tweak it here and there but they are no way rewriting the whole thing.

Are you sure about that? They might rewrite the whole thing if GM4Him is unhappy.
Originally Posted by Ankou
I assure you the Godfather book is not a good book. Francis Ford Coppola himself, who adapted it into a screenplay, described it as trashy schlock. The movie is infinitely better.

My personal tastes agree with yours - but there ARE folks who thought otherwise - as I recall it was on best seller lists for some time.

I was also never able to make it through the the original novel Planet of the Apes was based on - but in that case, I assumed it was loss in translation between the original French and English versions.
Any GREAT story that Larian has with BG3 is auto-destroyed by the cinematic dialogues. Thats my opinion on the matter. Start of EA up to now.
Its cringy, bad acting, weird faces/poses, weird timing, not necessary for many <basic> dialogues etc etc etc....pretty graphics though...Its perfect for the 10 to 25 demographic, so cant blame them.
If BG3 wants to be a movie like experience, they should of just made the game a telltale game.
Originally Posted by MrSam
Quote
The story is almost certainly complete. They might tweak it here and there but they are no way rewriting the whole thing.

Are you sure about that? They might rewrite the whole thing if GM4Him is unhappy.

Why the sarcasm? I thought EA was for giving our opinions on how we think the game could be better. I started this post to offer a suggestion. If they don't like it, Im fine with it.

Now it's turned into people getting all mad and hurt and acting like Im stomping my feet like a kid. I'm sorry if I offended any or hurt any with my comments. If I could just remove the entire thread I would at this point. The whole thing is so out of hand, and any changes I may have thought were cool are so not worth it it this point.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by MrSam
Quote
The story is almost certainly complete. They might tweak it here and there but they are no way rewriting the whole thing.

Are you sure about that? They might rewrite the whole thing if GM4Him is unhappy.

Why the sarcasm? I thought EA was for giving our opinions on how we think the game could be better. I started this post to offer a suggestion. If they don't like it, Im fine with it.

Now it's turned into people getting all mad and hurt and acting like Im stomping my feet like a kid. I'm sorry if I offended any or hurt any with my comments. If I could just remove the entire thread I would at this point. The whole thing is so out of hand, and any changes I may have thought were cool are so not worth it it this point.
Why are you apologizing? The point of your thread is very valid and you have made your arguments very well. Never ever give in to that one or two individuals who try to derail/destroy any attempt at discussion if the discussion involves even the slightest criticism of BG3 or Larian.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Why the sarcasm? I thought EA was for giving our opinions on how we think the game could be better. I started this post to offer a suggestion. If they don't like it, Im fine with it.

Now it's turned into people getting all mad and hurt and acting like Im stomping my feet like a kid. I'm sorry if I offended any or hurt any with my comments. If I could just remove the entire thread I would at this point. The whole thing is so out of hand, and any changes I may have thought were cool are so not worth it it this point.

I don't know man, I'm just tired of people complaining and arguing about everything. I thought it would be fun to talk to other Baldur's Gate fans while I wait for the full game but as soon I registered to this forum I realized that nothing else happens here but petty arguing and complaining. I guess I just wait for the game alone and play it alone and keep my sanity.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by MrSam
Quote
The story is almost certainly complete. They might tweak it here and there but they are no way rewriting the whole thing.

Are you sure about that? They might rewrite the whole thing if GM4Him is unhappy.

Why the sarcasm? I thought EA was for giving our opinions on how we think the game could be better. I started this post to offer a suggestion. If they don't like it, Im fine with it.

Now it's turned into people getting all mad and hurt and acting like Im stomping my feet like a kid. I'm sorry if I offended any or hurt any with my comments. If I could just remove the entire thread I would at this point. The whole thing is so out of hand, and any changes I may have thought were cool are so not worth it it this point.

I completely disagree with your assessment of the mechanics, but I absolutely wouldn't mind if the game could be played my way and the way you'd like as well. The more choice the better as far as I'm concerned.

You come across as a perfectly reasonable person. No harm in having your own opinion. It's all cool.
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Any GREAT story that Larian has with BG3 is auto-destroyed by the cinematic dialogues. Thats my opinion on the matter. Start of EA up to now.
Its cringy, bad acting, weird faces/poses, weird timing, not necessary for many <basic> dialogues etc etc etc....pretty graphics though...Its perfect for the 10 to 25 demographic, so cant blame them.
If BG3 wants to be a movie like experience, they should of just made the game a telltale game.

You really need to learn more about age target focus groups. At this point, you are really just sounding intentionally salty.
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Any GREAT story that Larian has with BG3 is auto-destroyed by the cinematic dialogues. Thats my opinion on the matter. Start of EA up to now.
Its cringy, bad acting, weird faces/poses, weird timing, not necessary for many <basic> dialogues etc etc etc....pretty graphics though...Its perfect for the 10 to 25 demographic, so cant blame them.
If BG3 wants to be a movie like experience, they should of just made the game a telltale game.


This is completely false.
Originally Posted by MrSam
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Why the sarcasm? I thought EA was for giving our opinions on how we think the game could be better. I started this post to offer a suggestion. If they don't like it, Im fine with it.

Now it's turned into people getting all mad and hurt and acting like Im stomping my feet like a kid. I'm sorry if I offended any or hurt any with my comments. If I could just remove the entire thread I would at this point. The whole thing is so out of hand, and any changes I may have thought were cool are so not worth it it this point.

I don't know man, I'm just tired of people complaining and arguing about everything. I thought it would be fun to talk to other Baldur's Gate fans while I wait for the full game but as soon I registered to this forum I realized that nothing else happens here but petty arguing and complaining. I guess I just wait for the game alone and play it alone and keep my sanity.

Exactly. I came to this site because Steam was even more toxic. I wanted a safe place where I could offer opinions and ideas. It's hard to keep offering ideas when toxic people attack every idea like it is somehow super offensive to them. I don't mind people disagreeing, but the way I see it, if what someone is suggesting isn't going to decrease the quality of your personal gameplay, there's no need to share your negative opinion. If you like the idea, say so. If you don't and it does hurt your gameplay, then yeah, say so and explain why respectfully. If it ain't hurting your game, or you aren't going to give a valid explanation, just don't say anything.

Many times I've agreed with people who explain logically why it would degrade the quality of the game or Ive tried to tweak my ideas because of respectful, logical explanations.
So Raphael is a perfect example if why I wrote this post. I am currently doing a playthrough where I haven't long rested at all because I haven't needed to. Im at the druids grove. Im going to meet Nettie. So no Gale Dialogues for me. I miss them entirely because I played well and didn't End Day after playing maybe an hour. Unless I adventure for 30 minutes, rest 24 hours, adventure 30 minutes, rest 24 hours, and then head to the Grove to meet Nettie, I am punished. No character development for me all because I didn't need to rest twice before the Grove.

So good playing. What is the result? No character development. Punished for good playing. Rewarded only if I waste 2 full days all before I reach the Grove. Maybe 1 hour of adventuring has been done by then, but you need to end day twice when you think every second counts makes no sense unless I really did poorly against the few enemies I have to fight before then.

So like I originally said. Good RPGing, punished. Bad RPGing, rewarded.

And this continues in other ways as well. Again, I should get better items, better story and better endings to different story plots if I played well and not so good results if I don't do so well.
Funny stuff about this complaint is the fact that you are the only one who concidering purposely ignoring game mechanic, that game litteraly begs you to use ... as "good playing". :-/
Originally Posted by GM4Him
So Raphael is a perfect example if why I wrote this post. I am currently doing a playthrough where I haven't long rested at all because I haven't needed to. Im at the druids grove. Im going to meet Nettie. So no Gale Dialogues for me. I miss them entirely because I played well and didn't End Day after playing maybe an hour. Unless I adventure for 30 minutes, rest 24 hours, adventure 30 minutes, rest 24 hours, and then head to the Grove to meet Nettie, I am punished. No character development for me all because I didn't need to rest twice before the Grove.

So good playing. What is the result? No character development. Punished for good playing. Rewarded only if I waste 2 full days all before I reach the Grove. Maybe 1 hour of adventuring has been done by then, but you need to end day twice when you think every second counts makes no sense unless I really did poorly against the few enemies I have to fight before then.

So like I originally said. Good RPGing, punished. Bad RPGing, rewarded.

And this continues in other ways as well. Again, I should get better items, better story and better endings to different story plots if I played well and not so good results if I don't do so well.

Maybe I'm wrong but it looks obvious to me that this part of the game is work in progress.

The rests mechanic is not really appealing and the companions dialogues or even the story scenes (i.e Raphaël) trigger often but not always... And usually we don't really know why.

If "good playing" (to quote you) is a problem for the story telling... They could just allow us to level up at the camp and only at the camp during a long rest like in DnD. That makes sense and you won't miss dialogues anymore if the remaining bugs are fixed.

I agree that something could/should be done for this fake sense of urgency but I guess it's not really complicated to solve.

I'd also like a living world instead of a world in which everyone is obviously waiting for me... But it's probably another thread.
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Funny stuff about this complaint is the fact that you are the only one who concidering purposely ignoring game mechanic, that game litteraly begs you to use ... as "good playing". :-/

The problem with ignoring game mechanics, is that Larian has moved the focus of combat from utilising class skills, to abusing stealth, backstab, jump/disengage, push, surface damage and height advantage. To compensate, they've monkeyed with enemy abilities, Hookhorroer/Minotaur, 90 foot jump slam, Bulette acid spit jump bowling pin scatter etc, to try to compensate.

If one ignored all of the divinity features that are now central to combat, just makes the character underpowered in face of the revamped enemies that are designed to use those same non-5th edition gameplay mechanics.
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Funny stuff about this complaint is the fact that you are the only one who concidering purposely ignoring game mechanic, that game litteraly begs you to use ... as "good playing". :-/

You are completely missing the point. The point is that the game should not force me to ise a mechanic if I don't need to and it makes no sense to. If I have full health, spell slots, and Ive only adventured for 5 minutes, the game should not force me to rest for 24 hours in order to NOT miss character dialogue.

Who adventures for 5 minutes, does literally nothing of value and says, "Im tired. I meed to call it a day?" This literally happened to me, and it happens quite a bit.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Funny stuff about this complaint is the fact that you are the only one who concidering purposely ignoring game mechanic, that game litteraly begs you to use ... as "good playing". :-/

You are completely missing the point. The point is that the game should not force me to ise a mechanic if I don't need to and it makes no sense to. If I have full health, spell slots, and Ive only adventured for 5 minutes, the game should not force me to rest for 24 hours in order to NOT miss character dialogue.

Who adventures for 5 minutes, does literally nothing of value and says, "Im tired. I meed to call it a day?" This literally happened to me, and it happens quite a bit.

I have never really felt like I was tired and needed to call it a day in any game really 8?.
I mean I camp to either refresh my quick rest, and to activate a cutscene or to see if I am going to have a dream after using a couple tadpole powers. I respect the fact that this is your personal playstyle, but I cannot even relate it to a priority in my playing of the game. Pretty sure you can wait a bit after they say they are tired before returning and still seeing the cutscene regardless.

In regards to your other idea, I think it is a great mechanic in XCOM2 for certain missions to put a time limit on it, but at the same time, I have really gotten to be annoyed at them as well preferring the untimed ones. I just don't see how they can put that type of mechanic in this game. It hasn't been in any of their portfolio of games either. It would be cool if they could break the conversations, or at least some of them from the camp. DA:O did this well. Certain scenes had to be at camp, but there was also unlocked ones you could do anywhere. Not going to say I wouldn't be happy if that could be achieved. Not going to lie.

Unfortunately, in a public forum, people can choose to disagree and post it. Some more fervently than others. But that is the way of the dark side I guess. Been that way in every forum I have ever been part of ;?
Ok. Let's say they do nothing about tying End Day to dialogues. Who suffers? People like me. Let's say they untie End Day and dialogue. Who suffers? No one.

So why resist my suggestion?

I can see people not wanting to be rushed in the Prologue. Makes sense. You want to get your bearings. I get that. I may want something different that is faster paced, but I get people resisting that change.

I can also understand people not wanting time sensitive events. Experienced players may have no problem getting to the hag and killing her without End Day but others may not. I might still want time sensitive events, but I get why people might not.

What I don't get is why resist my suggestion to allow players the freedom to NOT End Day constantly in order to trigger dialogue.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ive only adventured for 5 minutes
In that case you are still on Nautiloid, maybe talking with us ... most probably just finished looking around. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ok. Let's say they do nothing about tying End Day to dialogues. Who suffers? People like me. Let's say they untie End Day and dialogue. Who suffers?
People like me. wink
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ive only adventured for 5 minutes
In that case you are still on Nautiloid, maybe talking with us ... most probably just finished looking around. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ok. Let's say they do nothing about tying End Day to dialogues. Who suffers? People like me. Let's say they untie End Day and dialogue. Who suffers?
People like me. wink

No Ragnarock. Not 5 minutes on the nautiloid. Im referring to I Ended Day, ran through Blighted Village, Shadowheart said, "Im tired. Let's call it a day." I Ended Day. Astarion had some sort of dialogue triggered.

And how do you suffer if the game doesn't make you End Day to trigger dialogue at certain times or you don't trigger them at all? In my suggestion, you get all dialogues in some sort of order that are not necessarily triggered by End Day.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ive only adventured for 5 minutes
In that case you are still on Nautiloid, maybe talking with us ... most probably just finished looking around. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ok. Let's say they do nothing about tying End Day to dialogues. Who suffers? People like me. Let's say they untie End Day and dialogue. Who suffers?
People like me. wink

No Ragnarock. Not 5 minutes on the nautiloid. Im referring to I Ended Day, ran through Blighted Village, Shadowheart said, "Im tired. Let's call it a day." I Ended Day. Astarion had some sort of dialogue triggered.

And how do you suffer if the game doesn't make you End Day to trigger dialogue at certain times or you don't trigger them at all? In my suggestion, you get all dialogues in some sort of order that are not necessarily triggered by End Day.

Yeah would be great if the dialogues were not tied to long rests... and they really need to make sure you can't spam long rests whenever you want, either.
Originally Posted by andreasrylander
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ive only adventured for 5 minutes
In that case you are still on Nautiloid, maybe talking with us ... most probably just finished looking around. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ok. Let's say they do nothing about tying End Day to dialogues. Who suffers? People like me. Let's say they untie End Day and dialogue. Who suffers?
People like me. wink

No Ragnarock. Not 5 minutes on the nautiloid. Im referring to I Ended Day, ran through Blighted Village, Shadowheart said, "Im tired. Let's call it a day." I Ended Day. Astarion had some sort of dialogue triggered.

And how do you suffer if the game doesn't make you End Day to trigger dialogue at certain times or you don't trigger them at all? In my suggestion, you get all dialogues in some sort of order that are not necessarily triggered by End Day.

Yeah would be great if the dialogues were not tied to long rests... and they really need to make sure you can't spam long rests whenever you want, either.

It's nice when people agree. That was exactly why I suggested 2 long rests = 1 day instead of just 1, and maybe you only get like 6 days before the gobbos attack the Grove and the druids kick the tieflings out. Then, if you don't kill the leaders in time, you have the choice of either invading the gobbo base to save Halsin while the bulk of the gobbo army is away, or you can help defend the Grove. If you dethrone Kahga in time, the Druids help the tieflings at the gate. If not, the Druids complete the ritual, the tieflings fight outside the gate or wherever, and you can still choose whether to help save the tieflings or not. 6 days would be 12 Long Rests and 24 Short. Should be more than enough and provide more flavor to the game. Different endings not based just in whether you are good or evil but on how many Long Rests you used.

And maybe use this mechanic for other things too. Ignore Lae'zel and she leaves. Same with Wyll. Give the players a couple days to proceed to the Githyanki. If you don't,she gets frustrated and departs. Seems that would be true to her character and her dialogues. Same with Wyll. Give players warnings. Maybe the day before something bad will happen, a character warns them so it's not a surprise.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by andreasrylander
Yeah would be great if the dialogues were not tied to long rests... and they really need to make sure you can't spam long rests whenever you want, either.

It's nice when people agree. That was exactly why I suggested 2 long rests = 1 day instead of just 1, and maybe you only get like 6 days before the gobbos attack the Grove and the druids kick the tieflings out. Then, if you don't kill the leaders in time, you have the choice of either invading the gobbo base to save Halsin while the bulk of the gobbo army is away, or you can help defend the Grove. If you dethrone Kahga in time, the Druids help the tieflings at the gate. If not, the Druids complete the ritual, the tieflings fight outside the gate or wherever, and you can still choose whether to help save the tieflings or not. 6 days would be 12 Long Rests and 24 Short. Should be more than enough and provide more flavor to the game. Different endings not based just in whether you are good or evil but on how many Long Rests you used.

And maybe use this mechanic for other things too. Ignore Lae'zel and she leaves. Same with Wyll. Give the players a couple days to proceed to the Githyanki. If you don't,she gets frustrated and departs. Seems that would be true to her character and her dialogues. Same with Wyll. Give players warnings. Maybe the day before something bad will happen, a character warns them so it's not a surprise.

What if they added a day night cycle to the "im tired dialog". would you still suggest 2 long rests = 1 day

Months back I made a comment in another thread where the I'm tired dialog that pops up once in a while seemed to be a half finished feature leading to day/night cycle. BTW most adventures are not elderly and require multiple long rests every day. If this is a common thing you do IRL, pretty sure its unhealthy.
Long Rest does not mean sleep. It means light activity. Reading, memorizing spells, etc., all occur over that 8 hours. This is realistic and 5e rules.

The point of 2 Long Rests per day is that right now it makes even less sense to Long Rest because it is only 1 per day. I only adventure maybe 1 hour at a time at best and Long Rest meaning End Day. So adventure 1 hour, rest 23? Makes no sense when you are supposed to be racing against time before gobbos attack, etc.

At least with 2 Long Rests per day it is adventure 1 hour, rest 8, adventure 1 hour and rest 8. That's 18 hours. Add 2 short rests per Long. Each short rest is 1 hour. That's roughly 4 more,hours for a total of 22 hours per day. This gives you roughly 2 extra hours per day that could be simply accounted for by saying some rests were longer than others, or you could maybe adventure more than an hour before each Long Rest. Either way, more believable.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Long Rest does not mean sleep. It means light activity. Reading, memorizing spells, etc., all occur over that 8 hours. This is realistic and 5e rules.

The point of 2 Long Rests per day is that right now it makes even less sense to Long Rest because it is only 1 per day. I only adventure maybe 1 hour at a time at best and Long Rest meaning End Day. So adventure 1 hour, rest 23? Makes no sense when you are supposed to be racing against time before gobbos attack, etc.

At least with 2 Long Rests per day it is adventure 1 hour, rest 8, adventure 1 hour and rest 8. That's 18 hours. Add 2 short rests per Long. Each short rest is 1 hour. That's roughly 4 more,hours for a total of 22 hours per day. This gives you roughly 2 extra hours per day that could be simply accounted for by saying some rests were longer than others, or you could maybe adventure more than an hour before each Long Rest. Either way, more believable.

It seriously means sleep for a normal human. What do you think happens in a normal day for people in d&d?

Long Rest = Exended Rest in 4e. 4e page 263 PHB, duration = at least 6 hours, Once Per Day = after finish extended rest, you have to wait 12 hours. No Strenuous Activity = You normally sleep during an extended rest though you don't have to (some races don't sleep) light activity, regain hp spells so on.

short rests are 5 min. not going into that.

There is no time in the game currently, the voice dialog that pops isn't fully featured. This time you are making up is just that, you making it up. There is no need for additional rests, you are trying to give feedback to half a feature EA. In what way does the sleep time even remotely seem finished?

Edit* I'll do one better 5e page 70 copy/paste from freebe pdf

Long Rest
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8
hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least
6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity,
such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.
If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at
least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or
similar adventuring activity—the characters must begin
the rest again to gain any benefit from it.
At the end of a long rest, a character regains all lost
hit points. The character also regains spent Hit Dice, up
to a number of dice equal to half of the character’s total
number of them (minimum of one die). For example, if a
character has eight Hit Dice, he or she can regain four
spent Hit Dice upon finishing a long rest.
A character can’t benefit from more than one long rest
in a 24-hour period, and a character must have at least
1 hit point at the start of the rest to gain its benefits.
OK. I stand corrected. If this comment had been posted in the beginning, I'd have accepted that. It's 5e rules. I don't recall reading that before, so that's my bad that I didn't catch the "A character can't benefit from more than one long rest in a 24-hour period" line. I know in other D&D video games a long rest has been able to be performed more than once a day, and I know some play D&D that way, so maybe it didn't register for me. Either way, doesn't matter. You've pointed out the rules, and yes, it makes sense that if Long Rest is pretty much you sleeping at the end of a day, then fine. I'm good with that. 1 Long Rest a day then. Thank you for pointing it out to me.

This said, if Long Rest must equal End Day, meaning I adventure a bit, maybe do 2 short rests (A Short Rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds.), then this only escalates the point I'm trying to make for this entire post. Everyone keeps saying it makes no sense from a story perspective that you should be in a hurry and not Long Rest a lot. However, if every Long Rest is to be 1 Day coming to an end, I should not be Long Resting if at all possible according to the storyline. Why? These factors tell me, the player, not to Long Rest if at all possible, ESPECIALLY if a Long Rest is the end of a day:

1. I have a tadpole in my head that is a foreign object that is a creepy, nasty, ugly, scary thing. At the beginning, especially, I am told multiple times, and may even watch it happen to someone if I trigger the scene, that this tadpole is going to turn me grotesquely into a Mind Flayer in a very, very painful way. Even later, when I am told it is dormant, there is still the looming threat that any day now I might see symptoms. And then, to top it all off, I am told that this thing is special and that the Mind Flayers and the Absolute have special plans for me and my companions. AND THEN, to top it all off, Raphael shows up wanting to likely get his hands on the dumb thing. He tells me to go ahead and shop around, but eventually your time will come when you will come running to him begging for him to save you. So why would I want to Long Rest unless it was absolutely necessary?

2. After reaching the Druid's Grove, I learn that goblins now know where the Grove is. They could attack again at ANY moment. ANY moment. The longer I take killing the gobbo leaders, the better the chances that the gobbos are going to send a HUGE force to slaughter everyone, possibly including me if I'm in the grove at the time. All the lives in the grove depend on me. So unless I don't care about the tieflings and druids, why would I want to Long Rest unless it was absolutely necessary?

3. The druids are performing a ritual to seal off the grove. It is going to be completed in a few days. The more I Long Rest, the sooner the day will come when the druids will finish the ritual. If that happens, I can't ever buy or sell things in the Grove AND if I care, all the tieflings are going to die either by gnolls on the road or gobbos wiping them out. So why would I want to Long Rest unless it was absolutely necessary? Even if it is just because I would no longer have access to resources and supplies, it would still be important to me to save the Grove if I can.

4. I have companions urging me to complete certain tasks in a timely fashion. Every time I talk to Lae'zel she's nagging at me to stop dawdling and get my butt moving to the creche because it's our only hope for a cure. Shadowheart tells me numerous times that we need to find a healer and it should be our top priority. Gale does too. Astarion as well. "We need to learn to control these things," he urges us. Wyll wants us to get our butts moving to kill the gobbos before it's too late, so that we can save the tieflings he cares about so much. So why would I want to Long Rest unless it was absolutely necessary? If I take too long, shouldn't my companions get fed up with me and leave?

All this said, I escape the nautiloid, land on a beach at the beginning of Day 1. I meet Shadowheart and kill devourers. 5 minutes, maybe 10, of actual adventuring. I'm told to Long Rest. I can see it needing to be there as a Tutorial feature to tell players that if they need to Long Rest it's there. They may have not done so well against the devourers. So it is a good thing to have it there at that time.

However, I shouldn't HAVE to Long Rest there if I don't need to. If I have full health and spell slots or whatever, why Long Rest when I just started my day and have only been maybe adventuring for 10 minutes? By saying I shouldn't HAVE to, I mean that I shouldn't have to Long Rest in order to trigger certain dialogues. Every time I play, if I don't End Day at that point or some time prior to fighting Marli and Barton in the ruins, I miss out on Gale's Mirror Image dialogue. I don't know how others have triggered it if they don't do a Long Rest before Marli and Barton, but I seem to never trigger it unless I do End Day prior to the ruins. I either get the Mirror Image dialogue or Go to Hell. Never both. So I am punished for not Long Resting after, at the most, 20 minutes of barely doing anything but run around and meet people. I have a tadpole in my head, gonna turn me to a Mind Flayer, but I'm going to adventure 20 minutes and rest 23 hours? Makes no sense unless I am low on health and spell slots. Shadowheart even tells you, if you rest at that point, that she's not sure it's a good idea. So especially if I agree with her that it wasn't a good idea, I shouldn't need to rest in order to experience certain dialogue options at that point in the game.

It also doesn't make sense at all if I DID Long Rest at that point, that my characters would then say, "Gosh. I'd better see a bedroll in my near future," after beating Marli in the ruins. I mean. How much sleep and rest do my characters need? If I Long Rested just after beating the devourers, spent maybe another 15 minutes adventuring, my characters shouldn't be saying they're tired already. I just woke up from spending like 23 and a half hours doing nothing, sleeping 8 hours of that amount of time. So why after I defeat the guy at the door and Marli are my characters suddenly needing to Long Rest again? Especially if I beat them using stealth so that they don't even scratch me, it makes no sense to Long Rest at that point.

So why are they tired? The answer is only because another dialogue scene needs a triggering. That's dumb roleplaying. I should not be tired after barely doing anything. However, if I press on to a logical resting zone, like the Druid's Grove after I've talked to Nettie and done a bunch of stuff in the Grove, then I miss out on another dialogue scene and character development. AND, if you play at all like I do, even in my first playthrough, you can make it to the Druid's Grove without Long Resting at all or maybe just once. So what do you get if you don't Long Rest until after you meet Nettie? You miss out on character development. No conversations with Gale or Astarion or Shadowheart because you didn't adventure 30 minutes and take the rest of the day off and sleep 8 hours.

That's what I mean by the game punishing good roleplaying. Because I don't rest so often, because I don't need to, I miss out on good stuff that the creators developed but I don't get to see because I'm naturally trying to NOT Long Rest as much as possible because that's what the story is telling me to do. It's a complete contradiction from the story to rest that often. And then, later in the game, again, it is a complete contradiction to Long Rest often because of the 4 items I mentioned above.

So ALL I am suggesting is that Larian do the following:

1. Untie the dialogues from End Day so that I can get my character development without having to End Day when it is clearly not necessary for my characters to End a Day. If I have full health and spell slots and I feel I don't need to End Day, don't make me do so just so I can see all the dialogues and interact with the characters. Some dialogues require camp and End Day. I get that. Let me trigger them at some point. Does Gale's Mirror Image scene and Go to Hell have to be before Nettie and the Grove? Can't they still be triggered at some point? I'm still going to long rest. They could be triggered during later long rests. Or you could trigger multiple dialogues all in one night. I get to the Grove and meet Nettie without resting. I rest. Gale's Mirror Image dialogue is triggered. I talk to Shadowheart and get her "I'm not sure this is a good idea" speech. I talk to Astarion and get his beginning dialogues. I notice Gale has another exclamation mark over his head. I talk to him again and trigger the Go to Hell dialogue. I conclude by going to sleep and trigger Raphael's. Sure, it's a lot of dialogue all at once, but I did it to myself by not resting before then. At least I get to experience all the dialogue and character development.

2. Actually follow through with the story. If you tell me that within days goblins might attack, then make the goblins attack within days. Set a time limit. If they are going to attack within say 7 days from the time you enter the Grove, then after 7 Long Rests the goblins attack the Druid Camp. Same with the Druids and their ritual and Lae'zel being in your party and Wyll, etc. If you don't do things in a reasonable, timely fashion, it makes sense from a story perspective for things to happen because you weren't doing what you were told you should be doing. I'm not suggesting an unreasonable or difficult to meet time frame. Give the players time to still explore the whole map and have fun with it. I'm just saying it would put a limit on the number of times people use Long Rest so that they don't use it so much that it makes all the items you created practically worthless. Plus, it adds more possible endings to different scenarios and more flavor and choices to your gameplay. It adds more strategy too.

3. Add better rewards for those who do finish quests in a timely fashion, meaning with only using a certain number of Long Rests. Again, if I beat the hag without Long Resting, something I've never been able to do myself without complete and total luck, shoving her into a bottomless pit, I should get better gear and gold than someone who fights the Red Caps, Long Rests, fights the Adventurers, Long Rests, and then fights the hag. Why is she even waiting around for you to come get her at that point? Again, I think it would make more sense to do what one other player suggested and have Mayrina shipped off to another hag in Baldur's by that point. You can still fight the hag, but it's too late to save Mayrina if you don't rescue her quick enough.

So, again, the whole point of the thread is: Reward good playing.

Maybe "Punish bad role playing" is what is making people upset. If that's upsetting people, let me reword it. I'm sorry to offend. I don't mean to make it sound like people suck or something at the game. This is not a "Get Gud" post. That's not the point. I've certainly had times when I've totally done poorly at boss fights and so forth as well. The spider queen the first time I played it... I did SO bad. So, I'm not meaning to criticize people's gaming.

My point is to reward BETTER roleplaying. If someone who is better than me can beat the entire hag lair without Long Resting even once, that person should get some sort of really awesome magic item. If you beat it with only 1 Long Rest just before facing her, then you get some cool stuff but not as many cool things. The hag cleared out a good portion of her magic items before you arrived because you took so long. That's what she was doing while you rested. If you beat her after needing 2 or more Long Rests, you get stuff, but the cool stuff isn't there anymore. Thus, rewarding people for doing better.

So the next time I play through the game, when I do better at it than the previous time, I might get even cooler items and better scenario results. Maybe the first time I play the game, I fail to kill the gobbo leaders and the grove is attacked. The next time, I prioritize better and at least dethrone Kahga. The Grove is still attacked but the druids help defend, making the fight easier. The third time, I beat the gobbo leaders and entirely save the grove without loss of life. Everyone is so happy that they give me better gear to equip me for my upcoming new questline.

Thus making the game more rewarding to play through each time. The better I get, the better results I get from a story perspective, dialogue and items.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
So, starting a new one. This one's purpose is to day that I feel like Larian, as my DM, punishes me for good role playing.

[...]

3. I don't use tadpole powers.

Punishment for good roleplaying: I don't meet the dream person at all.

Solution? Make it so that if I rest too much the dream person starts to appear. If I use tadpole powers, they appear faster.

Wow. I've played all content around 7 times completely through now.
Of course I have never used the tadpole's powers because that would be an incredibly stupid thing to do.

Only through the comment of the OP I got to know about this at all.
Now I also feel like the OP. I've been punished for not playing stupid.
Originally Posted by Amitaya
Originally Posted by GM4Him
So, starting a new one. This one's purpose is to day that I feel like Larian, as my DM, punishes me for good role playing.

[...]

3. I don't use tadpole powers.

Punishment for good roleplaying: I don't meet the dream person at all.

Solution? Make it so that if I rest too much the dream person starts to appear. If I use tadpole powers, they appear faster.

Wow. I've played all content around 7 times completely through now.
Of course I have never used the tadpole's powers because that would be an incredibly stupid thing to do.

Only through the comment of the OP I got to know about this at all.
Now I also feel like the OP. I've been punished for not playing stupid.

Thank you. Game needs to trigger some of the tadpole story somehow whether I use tadpole powers or not. My suggestion. Too many Long Rests = Dream sequence and tadpole powers increasing to tempt you to use them even more.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by Amitaya
Originally Posted by GM4Him
So, starting a new one. This one's purpose is to day that I feel like Larian, as my DM, punishes me for good role playing.

[...]

3. I don't use tadpole powers.

Punishment for good roleplaying: I don't meet the dream person at all.

Solution? Make it so that if I rest too much the dream person starts to appear. If I use tadpole powers, they appear faster.

Wow. I've played all content around 7 times completely through now.
Of course I have never used the tadpole's powers because that would be an incredibly stupid thing to do.

Only through the comment of the OP I got to know about this at all.
Now I also feel like the OP. I've been punished for not playing stupid.

Thank you. Game needs to trigger some of the tadpole story somehow whether I use tadpole powers or not. My suggestion. Too many Long Rests = Dream sequence and tadpole powers increasing to tempt you to use them even more.
I disagree on that. I've run a character who used tadpole powers, and one who didn't and that only one gets the dreams seems to be the point. My guess is that unless you use the tadpole, the dream lover never gets access to your mind. You use them, you lose whatever protection you have. This likely will have some serious consequences down the road (considering the datamined spoilers).

Having the dream lover appear with time would leave the impression that it is a time-dependent event, which would be misleading unless the shielding weakens with time. And this doesn't seem to be the case.

The tadpole story is progressing either way, but the outcome will likely be very different. You get a different text during the boat ride if you have used the powers a lot.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
OK. I stand corrected. If this comment had been posted in the beginning, I'd have accepted that. It's 5e rules. I don't recall reading that before, so that's my bad that I didn't catch the "A character can't benefit from more than one long rest in a 24-hour period" line. I know in other D&D video games a long rest has been able to be performed more than once a day, and I know some play D&D that way, so maybe it didn't register for me. Either way, doesn't matter. You've pointed out the rules, and yes, it makes sense that if Long Rest is pretty much you sleeping at the end of a day, then fine. I'm good with that. 1 Long Rest a day then. Thank you for pointing it out to me.

This said, if Long Rest must equal End Day, meaning I adventure a bit, maybe do 2 short rests (A Short Rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds.), then this only escalates the point I'm trying to make for this entire post. Everyone keeps saying it makes no sense from a story perspective that you should be in a hurry and not Long Rest a lot. However, if every Long Rest is to be 1 Day coming to an end, I should not be Long Resting if at all possible according to the storyline. Why? These factors tell me, the player, not to Long Rest if at all possible, ESPECIALLY if a Long Rest is the end of a day:

1. I have a tadpole in my head that is a foreign object that is a creepy, nasty, ugly, scary thing. At the beginning, especially, I am told multiple times, and may even watch it happen to someone if I trigger the scene, that this tadpole is going to turn me grotesquely into a Mind Flayer in a very, very painful way. Even later, when I am told it is dormant, there is still the looming threat that any day now I might see symptoms. And then, to top it all off, I am told that this thing is special and that the Mind Flayers and the Absolute have special plans for me and my companions. AND THEN, to top it all off, Raphael shows up wanting to likely get his hands on the dumb thing. He tells me to go ahead and shop around, but eventually your time will come when you will come running to him begging for him to save you. So why would I want to Long Rest unless it was absolutely necessary?

2. After reaching the Druid's Grove, I learn that goblins now know where the Grove is. They could attack again at ANY moment. ANY moment. The longer I take killing the gobbo leaders, the better the chances that the gobbos are going to send a HUGE force to slaughter everyone, possibly including me if I'm in the grove at the time. All the lives in the grove depend on me. So unless I don't care about the tieflings and druids, why would I want to Long Rest unless it was absolutely necessary?

3. The druids are performing a ritual to seal off the grove. It is going to be completed in a few days. The more I Long Rest, the sooner the day will come when the druids will finish the ritual. If that happens, I can't ever buy or sell things in the Grove AND if I care, all the tieflings are going to die either by gnolls on the road or gobbos wiping them out. So why would I want to Long Rest unless it was absolutely necessary? Even if it is just because I would no longer have access to resources and supplies, it would still be important to me to save the Grove if I can.

4. I have companions urging me to complete certain tasks in a timely fashion. Every time I talk to Lae'zel she's nagging at me to stop dawdling and get my butt moving to the creche because it's our only hope for a cure. Shadowheart tells me numerous times that we need to find a healer and it should be our top priority. Gale does too. Astarion as well. "We need to learn to control these things," he urges us. Wyll wants us to get our butts moving to kill the gobbos before it's too late, so that we can save the tieflings he cares about so much. So why would I want to Long Rest unless it was absolutely necessary? If I take too long, shouldn't my companions get fed up with me and leave?

All this said, I escape the nautiloid, land on a beach at the beginning of Day 1. I meet Shadowheart and kill devourers. 5 minutes, maybe 10, of actual adventuring. I'm told to Long Rest. I can see it needing to be there as a Tutorial feature to tell players that if they need to Long Rest it's there. They may have not done so well against the devourers. So it is a good thing to have it there at that time.

However, I shouldn't HAVE to Long Rest there if I don't need to. If I have full health and spell slots or whatever, why Long Rest when I just started my day and have only been maybe adventuring for 10 minutes? By saying I shouldn't HAVE to, I mean that I shouldn't have to Long Rest in order to trigger certain dialogues. Every time I play, if I don't End Day at that point or some time prior to fighting Marli and Barton in the ruins, I miss out on Gale's Mirror Image dialogue. I don't know how others have triggered it if they don't do a Long Rest before Marli and Barton, but I seem to never trigger it unless I do End Day prior to the ruins. I either get the Mirror Image dialogue or Go to Hell. Never both. So I am punished for not Long Resting after, at the most, 20 minutes of barely doing anything but run around and meet people. I have a tadpole in my head, gonna turn me to a Mind Flayer, but I'm going to adventure 20 minutes and rest 23 hours? Makes no sense unless I am low on health and spell slots. Shadowheart even tells you, if you rest at that point, that she's not sure it's a good idea. So especially if I agree with her that it wasn't a good idea, I shouldn't need to rest in order to experience certain dialogue options at that point in the game.

It also doesn't make sense at all if I DID Long Rest at that point, that my characters would then say, "Gosh. I'd better see a bedroll in my near future," after beating Marli in the ruins. I mean. How much sleep and rest do my characters need? If I Long Rested just after beating the devourers, spent maybe another 15 minutes adventuring, my characters shouldn't be saying they're tired already. I just woke up from spending like 23 and a half hours doing nothing, sleeping 8 hours of that amount of time. So why after I defeat the guy at the door and Marli are my characters suddenly needing to Long Rest again? Especially if I beat them using stealth so that they don't even scratch me, it makes no sense to Long Rest at that point.

So why are they tired? The answer is only because another dialogue scene needs a triggering. That's dumb roleplaying. I should not be tired after barely doing anything. However, if I press on to a logical resting zone, like the Druid's Grove after I've talked to Nettie and done a bunch of stuff in the Grove, then I miss out on another dialogue scene and character development. AND, if you play at all like I do, even in my first playthrough, you can make it to the Druid's Grove without Long Resting at all or maybe just once. So what do you get if you don't Long Rest until after you meet Nettie? You miss out on character development. No conversations with Gale or Astarion or Shadowheart because you didn't adventure 30 minutes and take the rest of the day off and sleep 8 hours.

That's what I mean by the game punishing good roleplaying. Because I don't rest so often, because I don't need to, I miss out on good stuff that the creators developed but I don't get to see because I'm naturally trying to NOT Long Rest as much as possible because that's what the story is telling me to do. It's a complete contradiction from the story to rest that often. And then, later in the game, again, it is a complete contradiction to Long Rest often because of the 4 items I mentioned above.

So ALL I am suggesting is that Larian do the following:

1. Untie the dialogues from End Day so that I can get my character development without having to End Day when it is clearly not necessary for my characters to End a Day. If I have full health and spell slots and I feel I don't need to End Day, don't make me do so just so I can see all the dialogues and interact with the characters. Some dialogues require camp and End Day. I get that. Let me trigger them at some point. Does Gale's Mirror Image scene and Go to Hell have to be before Nettie and the Grove? Can't they still be triggered at some point? I'm still going to long rest. They could be triggered during later long rests. Or you could trigger multiple dialogues all in one night. I get to the Grove and meet Nettie without resting. I rest. Gale's Mirror Image dialogue is triggered. I talk to Shadowheart and get her "I'm not sure this is a good idea" speech. I talk to Astarion and get his beginning dialogues. I notice Gale has another exclamation mark over his head. I talk to him again and trigger the Go to Hell dialogue. I conclude by going to sleep and trigger Raphael's. Sure, it's a lot of dialogue all at once, but I did it to myself by not resting before then. At least I get to experience all the dialogue and character development.

2. Actually follow through with the story. If you tell me that within days goblins might attack, then make the goblins attack within days. Set a time limit. If they are going to attack within say 7 days from the time you enter the Grove, then after 7 Long Rests the goblins attack the Druid Camp. Same with the Druids and their ritual and Lae'zel being in your party and Wyll, etc. If you don't do things in a reasonable, timely fashion, it makes sense from a story perspective for things to happen because you weren't doing what you were told you should be doing. I'm not suggesting an unreasonable or difficult to meet time frame. Give the players time to still explore the whole map and have fun with it. I'm just saying it would put a limit on the number of times people use Long Rest so that they don't use it so much that it makes all the items you created practically worthless. Plus, it adds more possible endings to different scenarios and more flavor and choices to your gameplay. It adds more strategy too.

3. Add better rewards for those who do finish quests in a timely fashion, meaning with only using a certain number of Long Rests. Again, if I beat the hag without Long Resting, something I've never been able to do myself without complete and total luck, shoving her into a bottomless pit, I should get better gear and gold than someone who fights the Red Caps, Long Rests, fights the Adventurers, Long Rests, and then fights the hag. Why is she even waiting around for you to come get her at that point? Again, I think it would make more sense to do what one other player suggested and have Mayrina shipped off to another hag in Baldur's by that point. You can still fight the hag, but it's too late to save Mayrina if you don't rescue her quick enough.

So, again, the whole point of the thread is: Reward good playing.

Maybe "Punish bad role playing" is what is making people upset. If that's upsetting people, let me reword it. I'm sorry to offend. I don't mean to make it sound like people suck or something at the game. This is not a "Get Gud" post. That's not the point. I've certainly had times when I've totally done poorly at boss fights and so forth as well. The spider queen the first time I played it... I did SO bad. So, I'm not meaning to criticize people's gaming.

My point is to reward BETTER roleplaying. If someone who is better than me can beat the entire hag lair without Long Resting even once, that person should get some sort of really awesome magic item. If you beat it with only 1 Long Rest just before facing her, then you get some cool stuff but not as many cool things. The hag cleared out a good portion of her magic items before you arrived because you took so long. That's what she was doing while you rested. If you beat her after needing 2 or more Long Rests, you get stuff, but the cool stuff isn't there anymore. Thus, rewarding people for doing better.

So the next time I play through the game, when I do better at it than the previous time, I might get even cooler items and better scenario results. Maybe the first time I play the game, I fail to kill the gobbo leaders and the grove is attacked. The next time, I prioritize better and at least dethrone Kahga. The Grove is still attacked but the druids help defend, making the fight easier. The third time, I beat the gobbo leaders and entirely save the grove without loss of life. Everyone is so happy that they give me better gear to equip me for my upcoming new questline.

Thus making the game more rewarding to play through each time. The better I get, the better results I get from a story perspective, dialogue and items.




Pretty sure this is more of a game for you...
Originally Posted by GM4Him
No Ragnarock. Not 5 minutes on the nautiloid. Im referring to I Ended Day, ran through Blighted Village, Shadowheart said, "Im tired. Let's call it a day." I Ended Day. Astarion had some sort of dialogue triggered.
You keeped talking about how you didnt needed to long rest on beach until you at least explored crypt ... now you sudently changing it to completely different situation? O_o

You really should decide what are you talking about, otherwise any discusion is litteraly impossible.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
At least with 2 Long Rests per day it is adventure 1 hour, rest 8, adventure 1 hour and rest 8. That's 18 hours. Add 2 short rests per Long. Each short rest is 1 hour. That's roughly 4 more,hours for a total of 22 hours per day. This gives you roughly 2 extra hours per day that could be simply accounted for by saying some rests were longer than others, or you could maybe adventure more than an hour before each Long Rest. Either way, more believable.
I wonder if you realize what did you just say ...
In this scenario you spend 20 hours resting ... and 4 hours per day traveling. O_o

Is this your idea of "smart and good roleplay" where you act like people who just desperately search for cure for their condition? O_o
Even if you were not sleeping, but you were sitting on your ass and for 8 hours watching the clouds ... how is that behaviour "more believable" ?

Originally Posted by GM4Him
So why would I want to Long Rest unless it was absolutely necessary?
And this is exacthy why i dont understand you. :-/

In one sentence you justify 20 hours per day spend by resting ... since its "more believable".
In other sentence you demonize ending the day by long rest, since your character cannot afford to "waste time".

Please decide.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
1. I have a tadpole in my head that is a foreign object that is a creepy, nasty, ugly, scary thing. At the beginning, especially, I am told multiple times, and may even watch it happen to someone if I trigger the scene, that this tadpole is going to turn me grotesquely into a Mind Flayer in a very, very painful way. Even later, when I am told it is dormant, there is still the looming threat that any day now I might see symptoms. And then, to top it all off, I am told that this thing is special and that the Mind Flayers and the Absolute have special plans for me and my companions. AND THEN, to top it all off, Raphael shows up wanting to likely get his hands on the dumb thing. He tells me to go ahead and shop around, but eventually your time will come when you will come running to him begging for him to save you.
Well, it all depends on your characters attitude ...

First of all, that turning you can watch on Nautiloid, is started by some unknown Illithid technology, that is nowhere around you ... so you are not in imminent danger from it.

Shadowhearth specificly tells you you should have days (plural) at least ...
Laezel even list you all symptoms, and first signs that metamorphosis started ...
And litteraly everyone tells you that they are feeling fine right now.
So yes, you are constantly warned ... but also, all those warnings are "just in case". wink

And about that attitude ...
Take Wyll for example, he specificly tells you that unless he starts to feel anyhow worse, he refuses to give that tadpole more attention.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
2. After reaching the Druid's Grove, I learn that goblins now know where the Grove is.
Do you? O_o
When i reached the Druids Grove, i learned that all goblins who know where the Grove either lies in a pool of his own blood before gate ... or rot in the cage in Tieflings prison.

So how exactly do they know?

Originally Posted by GM4Him
3. The druids are performing a ritual to seal off the grove. It is going to be completed in a few days.
Once again, where exactly did you get that?
As long as i know, Kagha is the only one who gives you at least a little specific time ... and she says "soon". O_o

But i get that there is some pressure in this point ...
Originally Posted by GM4Him
If that happens, I can't ever buy or sell things in the Grove AND if I care, all the tieflings are going to die either by gnolls on the road or gobbos wiping them out.
Funny thing ... you are talking about things you are told when you reach the Grove ...
But everyone specificly tells you that Grove will be sealed, and that is final.
So you should know you will not be able to buy or sell things it Grove soon ... no matter if you help Tieflings or not. smile

So Tieflings are really the only concern here. wink

Originally Posted by GM4Him
4. I have companions urging me to complete certain tasks in a timely fashion. Every time I talk to Lae'zel she's nagging at me to stop dawdling and get my butt moving to the creche because it's our only hope for a cure. Shadowheart tells me numerous times that we need to find a healer and it should be our top priority. Gale does too. Astarion as well. "We need to learn to control these things," he urges us. Wyll wants us to get our butts moving to kill the gobbos before it's too late, so that we can save the tieflings he cares about so much.
Shadowheart is just keep reminding you litteraly every option you have, even if that option is allready dead, and even if she refused it at first ... like Gut, or Gith creche, for examples.

I dont remember Gale talking about need to get rid of tadpole even once except that recruiting conversations and "go to hell" one ...

And Astarion mentiones it only when asked. That is hardly conciderable as "urging". laugh

I admit that Lae'zel is actualy urging you ...
But she also mention every time you ask her that symptoms should have started allready, wich once again can give you a little peace to ballance her urges.

Well, and Wyll dont seem to care at all.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
All this said, I escape the nautiloid, land on a beach at the beginning of Day 1. I meet Shadowheart and kill devourers. 5 minutes, maybe 10, of actual adventuring. I'm told to Long Rest.
Why exactly you start to count your adventure from the middle? O_o
I dont expect you to rest right there on the beach, since you are so much against that "unnecesary resting" ... so, why exactly all that your character did since he ended on that beach is not counting?

Originally Posted by GM4Him
However, I shouldn't HAVE to Long Rest there if I don't need to. If I have full health and spell slots or whatever
Once again im amazed with your roleplay immersion. :-/

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Every time I play, if I don't End Day at that point or some time prior to fighting Marli and Barton in the ruins, I miss out on Gale's Mirror Image dialogue.
Yeah, we noticed ... you mention it in every single post, sometimes twice.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I'm going to adventure 20 minutes and rest 23 hours?
This is simply wrong ...
I presumed you would realize that if Druid's Grove actualy would be 15 minutes of walk (even if kinda fast walk) away from Goblins camp, they would probably not still searching it. laugh

So simmilar to that, you understandably and i would dare to say obviously cant take amount of real time gaming as "how long you spend amventuring". O_o

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Shadowheart even tells you, if you rest at that point, that she's not sure it's a good idea.
She tells you this every single time, its unavoidable ...
Sometimes it seems like shadowheart at this points is disagreeing with you simply bcs you exists.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
How much sleep and rest do my characters need?
I certainly hope for "less than 20 hours per day". smile laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
That's what I mean by the game punishing good roleplaying.
Except its not good roleplaying ...
And except game is not punishing you ... you are punishing you and blame the game, that is desperately begging you to use this feature you ignoring. :-/

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Or you could trigger multiple dialogues all in one night. I get to the Grove and meet Nettie without resting. I rest. Gale's Mirror Image dialogue is triggered. I talk to Shadowheart and get her "I'm not sure this is a good idea" speech. I talk to Astarion and get his beginning dialogues. I notice Gale has another exclamation mark over his head. I talk to him again and trigger the Go to Hell dialogue. I conclude by going to sleep and trigger Raphael's. Sure, it's a lot of dialogue all at once, but I did it to myself by not resting before then. At least I get to experience all the dialogue and character development.
This is finaly good sugestion ...

Or you can simply move some of them to another night.
Gales philosophy about the hells, have litteraly zero impact on any story, so i dont quite see any problem with this conversation happening one night later. O_o


Originally Posted by GM4Him
2. Actually follow through with the story. If you tell me that within days goblins might attack, then make the goblins attack within days. Set a time limit. If they are going to attack within say 7 days from the time you enter the Grove, then after 7 Long Rests the goblins attack the Druid Camp. Same with the Druids and their ritual and Lae'zel being in your party and Wyll, etc. If you don't do things in a reasonable, timely fashion, it makes sense from a story perspective for things to happen because you weren't doing what you were told you should be doing. I'm not suggesting an unreasonable or difficult to meet time frame. Give the players time to still explore the whole map and have fun with it. I'm just saying it would put a limit on the number of times people use Long Rest so that they don't use it so much that it makes all the items you created practically worthless. Plus, it adds more possible endings to different scenarios and more flavor and choices to your gameplay. It adds more strategy too.
I would actualy like this ...
But many people dont. :-/

Originally Posted by GM4Him
3. Add better rewards for those who do finish quests in a timely fashion, meaning with only using a certain number of Long Rests.
No, no, no and thousand times no!
This makes all you just said poor excuse to get another advantage.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Again, if I beat the hag without Long Resting, something I've never been able to do myself without complete and total luck, shoving her into a bottomless pit
laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I should get better gear and gold than someone who fights the Red Caps, Long Rests, fights the Adventurers, Long Rests, and then fights the hag.
How exactly would you justify that? O_o
Hag was hiding some superspecial armor or huge amount of gold into that mud that is around her, and you just get there sooner than she was finished? laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Why is she even waiting around for you to come get her at that point?
Why not ... she is in her lair ...
From roleplay perspective you have litteraly no idea what was she doing before you get there.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Again, I think it would make more sense to do what one other player suggested and have Mayrina shipped off to another hag in Baldur's by that point. You can still fight the hag, but it's too late to save Mayrina if you don't rescue her quick enough.
Why would she?
She is in her lair, her own domain full of traps and minions ... she also quite clearly believe that you stand no chance against her ... and unless you tell on her, Marina is at her side.
Also
you would miss that conversation, when she offers you power up in exchange for Marina ... i think you dont like to miss conversations. laugh

So why exactly should she "shipp her off"?
And more importantly ... how? laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
My point is to reward BETTER roleplaying.
Nope, your point is to reward YOUR roleplaying.
Don't even bother, they won't listening anyway.
Originally Posted by Street Hero
Don't even bother, they won't listening anyway.

Lol. You right. There's just no explaining some things to some people.

I give up. No matter how hard I try, I say ABC, they say !%×. Like 2 different languages.

If Larian doesn't understand what Im saying by this point...

And Larian is all that matters. I truly hope they take what I've suggested to heart. Would make BG3 a truly epic game.
Imma be a kid for a sec and fire back with the same weapon fallenj used.

Pretty sure this is more of a game for you...

DESERT BUS.[Linked Image from cdn.arstechnica.net]
Any more snarky memes posted that suggest a poster plays a different game will be dealt with. It is belittling and insulting and will be treated as such.

fallenj and GM4Him; you can both consider yourself warned about your posting behaviour.
Originally Posted by Amitaya
Originally Posted by GM4Him
So, starting a new one. This one's purpose is to day that I feel like Larian, as my DM, punishes me for good role playing.

[...]

3. I don't use tadpole powers.

Punishment for good roleplaying: I don't meet the dream person at all.

Solution? Make it so that if I rest too much the dream person starts to appear. If I use tadpole powers, they appear faster.

Wow. I've played all content around 7 times completely through now.
Of course I have never used the tadpole's powers because that would be an incredibly stupid thing to do.

Only through the comment of the OP I got to know about this at all.
Now I also feel like the OP. I've been punished for not playing stupid.
Yup, I also have posted many times in other threads here about being punished for choosing to not use the tadpole powers. As a good-inclined PC, I would NEVER opt to use the tadpole powers, and as a result significant chunks of the game are closed off to me with no offsetting compensation. It is ridiculously bad game design.
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Amitaya
Originally Posted by GM4Him
So, starting a new one. This one's purpose is to day that I feel like Larian, as my DM, punishes me for good role playing.

[...]

3. I don't use tadpole powers.

Punishment for good roleplaying: I don't meet the dream person at all.

Solution? Make it so that if I rest too much the dream person starts to appear. If I use tadpole powers, they appear faster.

Wow. I've played all content around 7 times completely through now.
Of course I have never used the tadpole's powers because that would be an incredibly stupid thing to do.

Only through the comment of the OP I got to know about this at all.
Now I also feel like the OP. I've been punished for not playing stupid.
Yup, I also have posted many times in other threads here about being punished for choosing to not use the tadpole powers. As a good-inclined PC, I would NEVER opt to use the tadpole powers, and as a result significant chunks of the game are closed off to me with no offsetting compensation. It is ridiculously bad game design.

You are actively making the choice not to use the tadpole, so not sure how you then think it is bad game design to not have the tadpole dreams or something? Also, why wouldn't a good inclined PC not use the tadpole? Just because you are good does not make you a saint, good people make bad (or possibly bad) choices all the time. I just seems very 1 dimensional of a "good" character to be that good. But if you make the ACTIVE choice of not partaking in a story event, you then can't blame the developers because you don't see the results of using said story event.
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Any more snarky memes posted that suggest a poster plays a different game will be dealt with. It is belittling and insulting and will be treated as such.

fallenj and GM4Him; you can both consider yourself warned about your posting behaviour.

I apologize. I knew better and let his post get to me. I even called myself childish for it. I just get tired of my ideas being attacked like that. No excuse for it though. Shoulda been the bigger person.
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Yup, I also have posted many times in other threads here about being punished for choosing to not use the tadpole powers. As a good-inclined PC, I would NEVER opt to use the tadpole powers, and as a result significant chunks of the game are closed off to me with no offsetting compensation. It is ridiculously bad game design.
There is nothing rewarding about the dream lover sequences, they are short and creepy (which is kind of the point). The powers might feel rewarding, but considering the limited information you can obtain in the game, this seems to be a "give into temptation now, regret it later" situation. In which case it would only bad game design if the devs never implement the negative consequences of tadpole usage.
I'm fine with you not getting the dreams if you don't use the tadpole. It's reasonable. You decided to not risk using the tadpole; ergo the tadpole doesn't get a hold on your mind and you don't get the dreams. You do get a reward: not being corrupted, which I assume (hope) will be important in Acts 2+ of the game.

This is an entirely different situation than rushing to reach the Githyanki creche and not long-resting. There is NO benefit to speeding through the game without resting, only downsides. I can't imagine that in Act 2 it will matter how much time it took for you to reach Moonrise/Githyanki creche, as there is no indication that time or number of rests is being tracked.
Furthermore, the majority of the downsides to rushing don't actually make sense. Why must the companions only talk to us before a long rest? We could just as easily have conversations on the road or while short resting.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Yup, I also have posted many times in other threads here about being punished for choosing to not use the tadpole powers. As a good-inclined PC, I would NEVER opt to use the tadpole powers, and as a result significant chunks of the game are closed off to me with no offsetting compensation. It is ridiculously bad game design.
There is nothing rewarding about the dream lover sequences, they are short and creepy (which is kind of the point). The powers might feel rewarding, but considering the limited information you can obtain in the game, this seems to be a "give into temptation now, regret it later" situation. In which case it would only bad game design if the devs never implement the negative consequences of tadpole usage.

I'm torn now, actually. On the one hand, I get your point. I really do. It actually goes along with a lot of the other suggestions I'm trying to make about the game. Good roleplaying equals good results in the game. Not so good roleplaying equals negative, bad results in the game. So if we have negative results happen to the main character when they do the right thing and not use the tadpole powers, then what's the point of NOT using the powers? You're going to get negative results either way.

On the other hand, the dream sequences are creepy and add a certain flavor to the story. Giving the PC's more tadpole powers is also like the Dark Side of the Force tempting a person to use those powers to speed up whatever is happening to you. So the reason I gave this suggestion was for the following reasons:

1. It is pointless to even bother with the Dream Person during Character Creation if I'm never going to see them in my dreams.
2. Having the dream sequences regardless of your choices reminds the players that they do have a terrible thing still happening to them. Right now, we wouldn't have so many people arguing that there is no sense of urgency if their characters were actually transforming in some way as time progresses in the story.
3. There is still a reward for NOT using tadpole powers. The reward is that the dream sequences are further apart from one another, and you more slowly get tadpole powers. If you use the tadpole powers, you more quickly get the powers. I actually suspect that this is Larian's original intent anyway, but since we don't have Acts 2 and 3 yet, we don't see this slower progression if you don't use the powers. So this may be an invalid discussion anyway about whether or not the dream sequences ever get triggered at any point in the game.

I didn't particularly like the dream sequences in that, like you said, they are creepy. However, I did feel that they added a certain sense of, "Holy Crap! That was wrong, and I really need to step up my game or this thing is going to totally take me over." It at least intensified the story plot.
I'm using those tadpole powers like there is no tomorrow so I can see my sexy lady and bust some sweet juicy nuts, baby BABY!
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Yup, I also have posted many times in other threads here about being punished for choosing to not use the tadpole powers. As a good-inclined PC, I would NEVER opt to use the tadpole powers, and as a result significant chunks of the game are closed off to me with no offsetting compensation. It is ridiculously bad game design.
There is nothing rewarding about the dream lover sequences, they are short and creepy (which is kind of the point). The powers might feel rewarding, but considering the limited information you can obtain in the game, this seems to be a "give into temptation now, regret it later" situation. In which case it would only bad game design if the devs never implement the negative consequences of tadpole usage.

Or even better, what if there were multiple tadpole story lines depending on the number of choices you make. That would be cool, rather than a) don't use tadpole = generic good ending...b) use tadpole = generic bad ending. I am hoping their story has multiple branches that lead to original endings.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I didn't particularly like the dream sequences in that, like you said, they are creepy. However, I did feel that they added a certain sense of, "Holy Crap! That was wrong, and I really need to step up my game or this thing is going to totally take me over." It at least intensified the story plot.
And I'd rather not get the dream sequences with every character. Everyone has their own preferences when it comes to storytelling.
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Yup, I also have posted many times in other threads here about being punished for choosing to not use the tadpole powers. As a good-inclined PC, I would NEVER opt to use the tadpole powers, and as a result significant chunks of the game are closed off to me with no offsetting compensation. It is ridiculously bad game design.
There is nothing rewarding about the dream lover sequences, they are short and creepy (which is kind of the point). The powers might feel rewarding, but considering the limited information you can obtain in the game, this seems to be a "give into temptation now, regret it later" situation. In which case it would only bad game design if the devs never implement the negative consequences of tadpole usage.

Or even better, what if there were multiple tadpole story lines depending on the number of choices you make. That would be cool, rather than a) don't use tadpole = generic good ending...b) use tadpole = generic bad ending. I am hoping their story has multiple branches that lead to original endings.

EXACTLY!!!! Yay! Pandemonica. That is exactly what I've been trying to communicate to people. I'd love to have multiple endings not just good ending = save Halsin and kill gobbo leaders. Bad ending = Kill all Tieflings and Druids. That was my whole point in saying timed events would lead to multiple endings. Give more variety. After x number of Long Rests, gobbos attack. You can either help save the tieflings/druids or save Halsin while the army is away, etc. etc. etc.
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Yup, I also have posted many times in other threads here about being punished for choosing to not use the tadpole powers. As a good-inclined PC, I would NEVER opt to use the tadpole powers, and as a result significant chunks of the game are closed off to me with no offsetting compensation. It is ridiculously bad game design.
That is kinda your decision man ...
You could be moraly gray, yet good person, if you want ... simmilar to Wyll ... using potentialy "unpopular" power, to achieve greater good. :P
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Any more snarky memes posted that suggest a poster plays a different game will be dealt with. It is belittling and insulting and will be treated as such.

fallenj and GM4Him; you can both consider yourself warned about your posting behaviour.

lol I thought the desert bus was kind of funny. meh I'm done, I made my point multi times.
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
But if you make the ACTIVE choice of not partaking in a story event, you then can't blame the developers because you don't see the results of using said story event.

Yes, a bunch of unique content is locked behind choosing to use the tadpole, with no corresponding unique content - so far - behind not using the tadpole. That's how the game has been designed. And that's why people are saying it's bad design as far as encouraging roleplaying goes. Right now we're effectively being punished for not using the tadpole by getting less cool stuff, which means Larian is pushing one path over another. Will there be consequences later on? It appears there will be, but will those consequences even out the scales? That remains to be seen.

Originally Posted by ash elemental
There is nothing rewarding about the dream lover sequences, they are short and creepy (which is kind of the point).

I definitely consider them a reward, along with the companion interactions before and afterwards. This is the stuff I play RPGs for. This is what gets me invested. If one set of perfectly reasonable roleplaying decisions results in character development and world building and drama and suchlike while the other results in [crickets], I'm going to be very disappointed.
Ah yes! More people who agree. Thank you. I still don't understand the resisting of the suggestions. It would literally just make the game more diverse and provide more paths and possibilities.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Yup, I also have posted many times in other threads here about being punished for choosing to not use the tadpole powers. As a good-inclined PC, I would NEVER opt to use the tadpole powers, and as a result significant chunks of the game are closed off to me with no offsetting compensation. It is ridiculously bad game design.
There is nothing rewarding about the dream lover sequences, they are short and creepy (which is kind of the point). The powers might feel rewarding, but considering the limited information you can obtain in the game, this seems to be a "give into temptation now, regret it later" situation. In which case it would only bad game design if the devs never implement the negative consequences of tadpole usage.
Yes I agree it could end up being the case that our reward for not using the tadpole powers appears later in the game, in the form of NOT suffering some horrible outcome from having used the powers. That would be AWESOME comeuppance for those who stupidly used the powers. smile

But for right now, it is very one-sided. And there can be no moral "gray area" here. If one is good-aligned, using the powers of mindflayers who are the epitome of evil would be rather ridiculous.
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
But if you make the ACTIVE choice of not partaking in a story event, you then can't blame the developers because you don't see the results of using said story event.

Yes, a bunch of unique content is locked behind choosing to use the tadpole, with no corresponding unique content - so far - behind not using the tadpole. That's how the game has been designed. And that's why people are saying it's bad design as far as encouraging roleplaying goes. Right now we're effectively being punished for not using the tadpole by getting less cool stuff, which means Larian is pushing one path over another. Will there be consequences later on? It appears there will be, but will those consequences even out the scales? That remains to be seen.

Originally Posted by ash elemental
There is nothing rewarding about the dream lover sequences, they are short and creepy (which is kind of the point).

I definitely consider them a reward, along with the companion interactions before and afterwards. This is the stuff I play RPGs for. This is what gets me invested. If one set of perfectly reasonable roleplaying decisions results in character development and world building and drama and suchlike while the other results in [crickets], I'm going to be very disappointed.
Totally agree.
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
I definitely consider them a reward, along with the companion interactions before and afterwards. This is the stuff I play RPGs for. This is what gets me invested. If one set of perfectly reasonable roleplaying decisions results in character development and world building and drama and suchlike while the other results in [crickets], I'm going to be very disappointed.
We don't know what the consequences down the line will be, yet. That is my point. If there are indeed none, then yes, I'd agree it is bad design. But if every character gets the dreams, that would make some storytelling content static. I'd rather have more dynamic content. E. g. a different outcome with the real Daisy if my character never interacted with dream Daisy.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
I definitely consider them a reward, along with the companion interactions before and afterwards. This is the stuff I play RPGs for. This is what gets me invested. If one set of perfectly reasonable roleplaying decisions results in character development and world building and drama and suchlike while the other results in [crickets], I'm going to be very disappointed.
We don't know what the consequences down the line will be, yet. That is my point. If there are indeed none, then yes, I'd agree it is bad design. But if every character gets the dreams, that would make some storytelling content static. I'd rather have more dynamic content. E. g. a different outcome with the real Daisy if my character never interacted with dream Daisy.

I'm glad people are discussing this. It isn't so much about EA/ Act 1 as it is about the overall game. I say, "Larian. If you indeed have plans for Acts 2 and 3 where by not using the tadpole you are greatly rewarded, then yes! That is what we want. However, if you are not going to greatly reward us for not using the tadpoles, then you need to reward us more. You don't have to change Act 1 as long as you are going to do something later on."

I personally LOVE the idea of meeting the real dream person if you do not use the tadpole powers. I was actually hoping for that by the end of Act 1 when I was first playing through it. I was quite disappointed when I didn't. Even if the character is not necessarily who I think they are, I wanted to meet them. But then, again, that could be what they are planning for Acts 2 and 3.

SPOILER!!!

I was hoping the person who was living in the tower in the Underdark WAS the dream person. I got to the end of the tower and thought, "Ah man! I was hoping after all this that I'd at least meet the person or see their portrait on a wall or something." But no. No dream person unless I give in to the tadpole. frown

I was also wondering if the Absolute might actually BE your dream person, but they call the Absolute a SHE regardless of whether you choose a woman or man as your dream person. So that doesn't seem to fit. Either way, I thought it would be very appropriate for the Absolute to be your dream person since wouldn't it technically be the Absolute who is messing with you in your dreams? Larian could still pull this, though, explaining that the Absolute is neither male nor female and thus taking whatever form he/she wants. Thus, to many, the Absolute is a female, so they call her a SHE.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
But if every character gets the dreams, that would make some storytelling content static.

That depends on how it's done. Every character gets dreams in the first two installments of this series, but different things happen in them - and as a result of them - based on decisions made as that character.
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
That depends on how it's done. Every character gets dreams in the first two installments of this series, but different things happen in them - and as a result of them - based on decisions made as that character.
I think this is where the original characters get the short end of a stick, because they are all stuck with "dream lover" Daisy. Meanwhile origin characters get their customized tadpole dreams. This is the sort of design I dislike. Because players who choose to create their own characters get to experience only one aspect of Daisy, and imo it is the most boring one.
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by ash elemental
But if every character gets the dreams, that would make some storytelling content static.

That depends on how it's done. Every character gets dreams in the first two installments of this series, but different things happen in them - and as a result of them - based on decisions made as that character.

That was my initial point about it as well. Every character gets dreams to creep the players out and to press home to players that they still have a tadpole messing with them. However, if you don't use tadpole powers, these dreams are less frequent than if you use tadpole powers. Maybe offer different dialogue options during the dream sequences too. If you don't use tadpole powers, you resist the dream person more in the cutscenes. If you use tadpole powers, your dialogue options are more geared towards succumbing to the dream person's advances. That sort of thing.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
I definitely consider them a reward, along with the companion interactions before and afterwards. This is the stuff I play RPGs for. This is what gets me invested. If one set of perfectly reasonable roleplaying decisions results in character development and world building and drama and suchlike while the other results in [crickets], I'm going to be very disappointed.
We don't know what the consequences down the line will be, yet. That is my point. If there are indeed none, then yes, I'd agree it is bad design. But if every character gets the dreams, that would make some storytelling content static. I'd rather have more dynamic content. E. g. a different outcome with the real Daisy if my character never interacted with dream Daisy.

I'm glad people are discussing this. It isn't so much about EA/ Act 1 as it is about the overall game. I say, "Larian. If you indeed have plans for Acts 2 and 3 where by not using the tadpole you are greatly rewarded, then yes! That is what we want. However, if you are not going to greatly reward us for not using the tadpoles, then you need to reward us more. You don't have to change Act 1 as long as you are going to do something later on."

I personally LOVE the idea of meeting the real dream person if you do not use the tadpole powers. I was actually hoping for that by the end of Act 1 when I was first playing through it. I was quite disappointed when I didn't. Even if the character is not necessarily who I think they are, I wanted to meet them. But then, again, that could be what they are planning for Acts 2 and 3.

SPOILER!!!

I was hoping the person who was living in the tower in the Underdark WAS the dream person. I got to the end of the tower and thought, "Ah man! I was hoping after all this that I'd at least meet the person or see their portrait on a wall or something." But no. No dream person unless I give in to the tadpole. frown

I was also wondering if the Absolute might actually BE your dream person, but they call the Absolute a SHE regardless of whether you choose a woman or man as your dream person. So that doesn't seem to fit. Either way, I thought it would be very appropriate for the Absolute to be your dream person since wouldn't it technically be the Absolute who is messing with you in your dreams? Larian could still pull this, though, explaining that the Absolute is neither male nor female and thus taking whatever form he/she wants. Thus, to many, the Absolute is a female, so they call her a SHE.


From what I can remember, some NPCs refer to the absolute as male.
It seems that the absolute itself has no specific gender, and it most likely takes a different form for each of the true souls.

Spoiler from datamining
From the dataming (if I remember correctly) how the main character will talk about the Absolute depends on the gender of the dream person.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I was also wondering if the Absolute might actually BE your dream person, but they call the Absolute a SHE regardless of whether you choose a woman or man as your dream person. So that doesn't seem to fit. Either way, I thought it would be very appropriate for the Absolute to be your dream person since wouldn't it technically be the Absolute who is messing with you in your dreams? Larian could still pull this, though, explaining that the Absolute is neither male nor female and thus taking whatever form he/she wants. Thus, to many, the Absolute is a female, so they call her a SHE.
If you are looking for a hint about the absolute , talk to the
dead mindflayer in the goblin camp.
More datamined spoilers
From what I've read there are indeed repercussions for using the tadpole. In the Moonrise Tower(act 1B) there is supposedly an NPC who has the ability to "Authority" the player if they have used the tadpole a set number of times. What I've read is 6 uses(which I believe changes the Illithid Wisdom option in the game to True Soul Wisdom). It is currently unknown if using the class specific powers counts toward that 6 uses to be controlled or if getting the Mark of the Absolute allows a toon to be controlled the same way we do to those that bear the Mark. I am particularly interested in doing some testing with this hopefully soon when Larian releases the rest of act 1.
Um. Where'd you hear that? You can't get to Moonrise yet, right?

Anyway, all this is only one part of the point. The whole game is full of times where good game playing could be more rewarded. We need more rewards for doing better at the game.

Ah. Heres another example. Owl bear. Im a druid. I don't want to take mama from baby. I don't get cool spear or druid armor. I only get spear for killing mama bear.

Maybe I could get something better if I don't kill mama. I play good, i get druid armor for being druid and not killing bugbear. Something like that.
Have you tryed to knock out that owlbear? -_-
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Have you tryed to knock out that owlbear? -_-

Again. Missing the point. The point is that if I'm a druid, why WOULD I fight the owl bear at all. I should talk to it at most and back off. Why attack it and kill it or knock it out except to take the good stuff?

So if I don't fight the owlbear, which makes sense for a good character to do or a druid to do, I get no reward. I am only rewarded if I attack and either kill or knock the owlbear unconscious.

Why not have an option for a druid to befriend the owlbear and cub? Why not something like that? Maybe as a druid, I could convince the owlbear to let me remove the spear shaft and it is happy with me. Then, maybe allow me to somehow summon the owlbear for one battle with a magic item. Owlbear against the hag. Oh yeah!
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Have you tryed to knock out that owlbear? -_-

Again. Missing the point. The point is that if I'm a druid, why WOULD I fight the owl bear at all. I should talk to it at most and back off. Why attack it and kill it or knock it out except to take the good stuff?

So if I don't fight the owlbear, which makes sense for a good character to do or a druid to do, I get no reward. I am only rewarded if I attack and either kill or knock the owlbear unconscious.

Why not have an option for a druid to befriend the owlbear and cub? Why not something like that? Maybe as a druid, I could convince the owlbear to let me remove the spear shaft and it is happy with me. Then, maybe allow me to somehow summon the owlbear for one battle with a magic item. Owlbear against the hag. Oh yeah!

An Owlbear is a 'monstrosity ', it is not of the natural world. A druid would feel no compulsion to let the creature or its' spawn continue to exist; they are anathema to the natural order.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
Ok. Ok. So bad example. I forgot it was technically a monster. Thought it would be cool to have a bugbear fight on your side too.

This actually is an example of good role-playing then. Kill the owl bear, which you should do. Get better prize. Don't kill it, no reward. Lol.
I guess a good druid would probably kill the baby too, but my characters are totally planning to keep it around and train it as a mount one day. Who needs tadpole powers when you're riding an owlbear?
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ah. Heres another example. Owl bear. Im a druid. I don't want to take mama from baby. I don't get cool spear or druid armor. I only get spear for killing mama bear.

Maybe I could get something better if I don't kill mama. I play good, i get druid armor for being druid and not killing bugbear. Something like that.
If you mean The Oak Father's Embrace, you can just stealth and loot it from a nearby skeleton. I'm not sure sneaking is even required if you pacify the mama owlbear.
If you don't kill owlbear you get approval point from Shadowheart and maybe get that sweet pie of hers. What I did was first I took that approval point from Shadowheart by letting owlbear live and then I killed that smelly owlbear. Then I get the choice to let owlbear cub live which I did and that gave me another Shadowheart approval point. Sweet Shadowheart pie, here I cum!!! cool
Being druid, nor being a good character ... dont equal being a hippie. :-/
Even if Owlbear was a beast, it would make sence that Druid would fight it ... if there is one too big predator decimating everything else in the woods, its bad for "natural ballance" wich they maintain ...

Source: https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/druid
Quote
For druids, nature exists in a precarious balance. The four elements that make up a world—air, earth, fire, and water—must remain in equilibrium. If one element were to gain power over the others, the world could be destroyed, drawn into one of the elemental planes and broken apart into its component elements. Thus, druids oppose cults of Elemental Evil and others who promote one element to the exclusion of others.

Druids are also concerned with the delicate ecological balance that sustains plant and animal life, and the need for civilized folk to live in harmony with nature, not in opposition to it. Druids accept that which is cruel in nature, and they hate that which is unnatural, including aberrations (such as beholders and mind flayers) and undead (such as zombies and vampires). Druids sometimes lead raids against such creatures, especially when the monsters encroach on the druids’ territory.

Druids are often found guarding sacred sites or watching over regions of unspoiled nature. But when a significant danger arises, threatening nature’s balance or the lands they protect, druids take on a more active role in combating the threat, as adventurers.
Being a druid dont mean you cant harm any beast or plant ... it means you would not do that without purpose, that is all.


Originally Posted by GM4Him
Why not have an option for a druid to befriend the owlbear and cub? Why not something like that? Maybe as a druid, I could convince the owlbear to let me remove the spear shaft and it is happy with me. Then, maybe allow me to somehow summon the owlbear for one battle with a magic item. Owlbear against the hag. Oh yeah!
I understanded completely, once again you simply create excuses to give bonuses to your own gameplay. -_-
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ah. Heres another example. Owl bear. Im a druid. I don't want to take mama from baby. I don't get cool spear or druid armor. I only get spear for killing mama bear.

Maybe I could get something better if I don't kill mama. I play good, i get druid armor for being druid and not killing bugbear. Something like that.
If you mean The Oak Father's Embrace, you can just stealth and loot it from a nearby skeleton. I'm not sure sneaking is even required if you pacify the mama owlbear.
You have to sneak. If you go forward after making peace with mama owlbear, she will attack you. But sneaking works.
Guys, you're playing the game wrong. To get all the goodies you have to first let owlbear live, get the goodies from that, then kill it, get exp from that, then let cub live, get the goodies from that. Any other way is wrong because you get less.
See? That's a case in point. You say I'm making excuses to give bonuses to my own gameplay.

Ragnarock. This is not about me attacking BG3. I am not the enemy. You aren't the BG3 Defender. It seems like if anyone offers any feedback about the game you are immediately on the defensive and you feel you have to do whatever you can to shoot down their opinions to make it sound like the person is a whining, complaining unreasonable individual.

I admitted that the owl bear scenario was a bad example. I admit that actually it is contrary to my point. The owl bear is, in fact, a good example of Larian doing RPG right. And yet, you still accuse me of making excuses to prove my point, as if I'm attacking BG3 like an evil owl bear and you are the hero defending it.

I am NOT trying to force people to have to play the game my way. Im trying to give feedback so that Larian will maybe tweak the game so me and others like me can ALSO play the game the way we like as well. Im not trying to take things away from you or anyone else. I want them to add things to make the game better for me too.
That is bcs you do:
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Maybe I could get something better...
Maybe I could theoretically be able to trust you, if the whole situation wasn't based on the fact that, as you literally write here, you just want to get an advantage. -_-

I've never said that you want to force people play your way (therefore defending against it is irellevant and unnecessary), I say that you want to change the system to make it better for your way ... and that's wrong.
You can imagine that if you play a druid you already have the advantage that you can get a staff that no one else seems to be able to get ...
In my eyes, such an advantage is quite sufficient.

And an appendix ... if you're having trouble typing my name correctly, either copy it or omit it altogether ... but I'd appreciate it if you'd stop this truncation.
Whether you do it on purpose or not.
OK RagnarokCzD. I'm sorry to offend you. Truly am. Many times I'm on my phone or I can't see your name or the spell check changes it to something weird. I didn't know it would upset you to mistype it. I hope that we can stop being opposed to one another in these threads. I'd like to have friendly conversations, working together to improve this game. I really don't want to argue endlessly with people about something Larian may or may not implement.

Right now, we are focusing too much on the owlbear situation, which I've admitted I was wrong about. I've also admitted that it is actually an example of how Larian has already done exactly what I am posting about here. So I was wrong. The owlbear scene is good.

But since we ARE stuck on the owlbear, let's use it as a case in point from a positive perspective about what I've been trying to say all along. In the situation of the owlbear, players are rewarded for GOOD roleplaying; decisions that makes sense from a story perspective and the player is acting according to their character. A druid or good cleric or good person period, who is supposed to be a hero, would kill the owlbear so no one else is victimized by it. An evil character would also likely kill it just because they feel like it or for the loot. So bad roleplaying would be to allow the thing to live and go about your business. Good roleplaying would be to kill it.

So, good roleplaying, killing the owlbear, brings rewards. Yay! This is my point. That's wonderful. Bad roleplaying, letting the owlbear live, brings no rewards. Again, this is my point. If you cheat, which is to sneak and steal the magic item, etc., you may still get a reward, but that, again, is good roleplaying because if you have a rogue who is good enough to sneak up and steal it then you should get the prize. So, this is a case in point of exactly what I'd like to see more of. THAT is the WHOLE point of this entire thread. Shoot! Even letting the baby owlbear live and such is good roleplaying depending on the personality you are creating for your character.

So now let's forget the owlbear. In the rest of the game, what we are currently getting is a lot of situations where I am rewarded for roleplaying in a way that doesn't make sense from a story perspective and/or is not in character. If I, for example, am a good cleric of Tyr, can you honestly tell me that it makes sense to you that my good cleric of Tyr confronts the hag in her home, she escapes with Mayrina, he fights some Red Caps and makes his way down to her lair, fights some masked adventurers and then decides to call it a day, head back to his camp, chill there for the remainder of the day, get 8 hours of sleep, head back to the hag's lair where he left off and then enter her inner domain and fight her? It doesn't make sense to me or to many others who agree with what I'm saying.

BUT, if I don't play this way, I have a REALLY hard time beating the hag. Shoot! I just played the Red Cap battle today and quit. Gonna have to reload. Full health, fresh slots, and played it with the intent to save my slots and such because I'm trying to manage my spells wisely and so forth so I can get to the hag with slots to spare. In other words, I was trying to play it in a way where I wouldn't need to Long Rest prior to facing her.

The Red Caps kicked my butt. Ethel poisoned me, giving me disadvantage on all rolls, and without using spells I was dying real fast.

So I'm forced to play in a way where I have to expend all my spell slots and such killing the Red Caps because it's a tough fight and then Long Rest some time between that fight and the hag's lair or I'll never beat the hag. Thus, my good cleric of Tyr is forced to go against his character. He is forced to use all his spells, and the spells of the rest of the party, just to get to the hag, then spend the remainder of the day chilling at camp, sleep 8 hours and return to face her as if it was no big deal to do so.

Please note: I did not say all this because I want advice on how to play the game. People tend to think that helps. It doesn't. I'm using this as a case in point. I'm pointing out that if I'm a new player, this entire side quest is immersion breaking. I will likely die unless I spend all my spells and take a Long Rest. When a hag has just kidnapped someone, there is a sense of urgency - or at least there should be if this was a real life scenario. Roleplaying is about putting yourself in their shoes. Can you honestly tell me that if a hag had just kidnapped someone you wouldn't be urged to push forward to try to save her if you were a good cleric of Tyr?

So, again, I'm punished unless I spend all my spell slots and Long Rest, which goes against my character. I HAVE to Long Rest, or I'm going to get my butt kicked and struggle getting to the end of the scenario. That is punishment to me and others who agree with me no matter what way you look at it. If I push on without long resting, the entire side quest is impossible or nearly impossible. If I rest, I break the immersion. That's how it was for me the first time I played it, and that's how it still is for me no matter what way I try to play it.

So my WHOLE point is that I want Larian to do things that make sense from a story perspective first. Then balance the game to match. Roleplaying is about story first. Then mechanics. That's why Wizards says it's okay to implement house rules.
They want players to enjoy the game and have fun adventures without the rules getting in the way. I have no problem with Larian implementing house rules to make the game more fun, but not at the expense of the story and character development. Story/character development first. The mechanics MUST compliment the story and character development. Don't make me do things that don't make sense from a story/character perspective just so I can beat a boss villain.

And, if the Red Cap fight, with all my characters at Level 4 (just leveled up beforehand) is difficult at best and impossible at worse, and I'm struggling to beat it unless I expend all my spell slots and so forth, or I know some clever tricks to the game, that is not good from a story perspective. The DM, Larian, has just put me in a VERY bad situation. There's no way I'm going to beat the hag now. I might as well pray to the gods to save Mayrina cause I sure won't be able to unless I use everything I've got for every battle and Long Rest a lot. Makes no logical sense.

ALL this being said, for you who think all I'm doing is complaining and trying to change the system, I've even thought of a way Larian COULD explain allowing a Long Rest or two during this scenario so they don't even have to change the system. Ethel, just before the Red Cap fight, says, "Let's have a bit of fun." So she indicates that she's playing with you. Therefore, she waits for you however long it takes because she's having a bit of fun with you. It's a game to her, AND she wants that tadpole. This, however, is never clearly explained.

SO, my suggestion now for this scene in particular, if Larian doesn't want to restrict Long Rests for story immersion purposes, is to have the hag at various points taunt you as you are making your way into her lair, like she does when you are examining different trophies in her sanctum. Heck! She taunts you from start to finish, so adding a few more taunts would only add to the flavor of the side quest. The taunting could be something like, "Take as much time as you need, Deary. I'm enjoying our little game. You sure you don't need to rest? Don't worry. I'll wait for you. The prize is well worth the wait." Once you are getting close to her lair, have her taunt again by saying something like, "You sure you want to face me right now, Pet? You're looking a bit worse for wear. Maybe you should get some rest first. Take the rest of the day off. I won't go anywhere. Promise. I want you at your best when I CRACK YOUR SKULL OPEN AND RIP THAT WIGGLER FROM YOUR POMPOUS LITTLE BRAIN!!!"

THIS tells players, especially new ones, that Long Resting might not only be okay but it is recommended. Then, from a story perspective, players get a full understanding that Ethel is totally enjoying this and is playing a game with you and she's going to wait as long as it takes for you to get there. THIS emphasizes to players that what she really wants is your tadpole. She'll even wait days if it means you'll bring it to her.

THAT is the kind of thing I'm looking for. If they are going to make the boss super tough, and you will likely need to Long Rest before facing him/her/it, then at least explain it from a story perspective. Don't make it so that I feel like I'm cheating by Long Resting.

And PLEASE untie dialogues from rest. I want my character development without having to End Day all the time. That breaks immersion SO much for me and others, which is why so many bring it up. I don't even care anymore if you put time limits on certain events like the gobbos attacking (which again I'd love to see). I just want it so that I don't have to Long Rest when I'm full health and full spell slots and so forth and it makes no sense to Long Rest just so I can trigger some dialogue or other.
@GM4Him

What are you doing, you have no time to save some girl you don't even know. You said that you have tadpole in your head so you don't have time to do anything else than get it out, why you hypocrite? GTFO
Originally Posted by MrSam
@GM4Him

What are you doing, you have no time to save some girl you don't even know. You said that you have tadpole in your head so you don't have time to do anything else than get it out, why you hypocrite? GTFO

See. This is exactly what I mean by you people are missing the whole point. I said it made no sense to Long Rest a ton if you have a tadpole in your head. You understood that to mean that I don't want players to be able to explore the map and do the side quests and such because they should just speed run through the game and get straight to the main quest.

I don't know how many ways I can explain it, though. The point wasn't to speed run the main quest. The point was that players shouldn't be able to Long Rest indefinitely without something happening. It makes no sense from a story perspective to Long Rest all the time without some sort of repercussions.

It's all about the Long Rests. It's about characters not Long Resting beyond reason. Right now, the game is forcing players to Long Rest A LOT when you have a tadpole in your head. So I want them to not force people to Long Rest so much. That's the whole point.

But you seem to view that as me saying that I want Larian to force players to speed run the game and not do any side quests but focus on the main quest. I'm not saying that AT ALL!

The druids aren't going to do their ritual for more than a few days, and the goblins aren't going to just sit there and do nothing waiting for you to show up and kill their leaders.

So I'm not suggesting that Larian put some sort of time limits on the game so that players won't even have time to explore the map and do all the side quests. I don't want that either. I want to be able to explore and enjoy the WHOLE game.

THAT is the whole point. Right now, I don't get to enjoy the whole game unless I Long Rest ALL THE TIME. I miss out on dialogues, it destroys immersion, goblins never attack the grove, druids never kick anyone out. It's all stuck in some sort of endless Groundhog Day, nothing ever changes setting.

So I'm suggesting that they implement some sort of events triggers. After x number of Long Rests a person shows up at your camp saying, "You'd better hurry. The gobbos are going to attack in just a few days." Then, in x number of days after that the gobbos actually attack. In this way, if you use too many Long Rests the gobbos will attack and you can either help defend the grove against them or not. Your choice. You can still Long Rest all you want, but things will actually happen the more you Long Rest.

So my suggestion was NOT that the character would be so freaked out that they'd not try to help a person in need, for a good character might sacrifice themselves to help someone in need, but that they wouldn't be sleeping a thousand times when they know they have a tadpole in their heads and gobbos are going to attack the grove and druids are going to force people out supposedly in just a few days and a hag just kidnapped a girl who is pregnant.

Right now, the way the game is designed, the character is urged to Long Rest, then are told to not Long Rest because you have a tadpole in your head, but then you are supposed to Long Rest a lot because you can't beat the bosses unless you Long Rest before fighting them which makes no sense from a story perspective. Then, on top of it all, you have to Long Rest or you miss out on fun character dialogues.

So it's not about speed running the game but about the story.

I wouldn't Long Rest after I just learned a hag kidnapped a pregnant woman if I'm a good cleric of Tyr. I'd even sacrifice myself to save her as fast as I could. So either Larian needs to dumb down the hag fight, WHICH I WOULD NOT PREFER, or provide players some sort of logical reason why they can go off and spend the remainder of a day chilling and then sleep for 8 hours and then return to face the hag as if it was no big deal that the hag just kidnapped a pregnant woman. Likewise, they need to explain better why the gobbos won't attack the grove even after you've Long Rested like 12 times after you visited the grove initially or why the druid ritual isn't completed after 24 times of Long Resting...or however many times you Long Rest (the number of the Long Rests isn't important, it's the concept I'm referring to).

So I don't care if Larian gives us 10 Long Rests before the gobbos attack the grove and/or the druids kick out the tieflings. Just at least put some sort of limit on it so that if players use that many Long Rests SOMETHING happens. It makes no sense right now that you can Long Rest indefinitely and nothing happens.

Yes. I don't care if you have a mind flayer tadpole in your head, if you're exhausted, used up all your spell slots and HP, Yes it makes sense to Long Rest. However, if you are full health, just started the day, have all your spell slots AND you haven't hardly done anything but run through Blighted Village, it makes no sense to Long Rest just so you can trigger some dialogue. It makes no sense that my characters will say they are tired and need to long rest after I just woke up and ran through Blighted Village with full health and spell slots and everything. NO SENSE WHEN YOU HAVE A TADPOLE IN YOUR HEAD TO LONG REST JUST SO A CHARACTER CAN CHAT WITH ME.

And AGAIN, the whole point is to reward good roleplaying. Using the owlbear situation as a case in point, if you kill the owlbear, good roleplaying, you get fun gear, good rewards. If you don't, bad roleplaying, you don't get fun gear, bad rewards. If I beat the hag without a Long Rest, good roleplaying, which I actually cannot do, I should get good rewards. If I Long Rest, maybe I get the rewards that are in the game now. So I'm not saying take anything away from anyone. I'm saying add something better if someone does better at each side quest and the main quest.

Beat the gobbo leaders before they attack the grove, no life lost at the grove. If you don't beat the leaders in time, you get the help of the tieflings and/or druids but some of them may die in the fight. Things LIKE this. I don't even care if they do anything I suggest. I just want something that makes more sense for people like me.
Lol! All this talk about the Hag lair and not Long Resting and turns out Patch 4 did this already. HAHA! That's hilarious. Wasted so much time writing about something that doesn't matter now anyway. It's already done. Way to go Larian! That's what I'm talking about.

Still need to make the whole experience a bit less difficult, but it least people can't just Long Rest or Fast Travel in her lair.

Anyone test it out? Can tou still leave and Long Rest and return to fight the hag? Maybe I'll try it tomorrow.
Of course you can, I rested at hag's house. The hag does not feel you as a threat.
You can short rest in her lair but not long, and fast travel is now also restricted in her lair.

Now if they just implement a consequence of some kind for leaving and resting and coming back, then it would make perfect sense.

Still, the lair is one of the hardest in the game. I guess, though, they really let you know. The door now even tells you. RUUUN!!!!

Like the old Dexter's Lab cartoon, "Enter at your own peril, past the vaulted door..." 😁
It was always like this. You never could long rest on the hags lair. I played since patch 3 and wasn't able to do that. So that is no news.

As for dumbing down the whole lair - no, just no. The whole lair feels nicely creepy and challenging, I really don't want that gone. And it isn't that hard, just challenging.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Lol! All this talk about the Hag lair and not Long Resting and turns out Patch 4 did this already. HAHA! That's hilarious. Wasted so much time writing about something that doesn't matter now anyway. It's already done. Way to go Larian! That's what I'm talking about.

Still need to make the whole experience a bit less difficult, but it least people can't just Long Rest or Fast Travel in her lair.

Anyone test it out? Can tou still leave and Long Rest and return to fight the hag? Maybe I'll try it tomorrow.

You can always spend 30 seconds to go out and rest outside.
Besides, it was impossible to rest there from the beginning.

Another thing is that it doesn't make sense for a witch to send a marine somewhere else.
She believes you are not threat to her.
Hmmm. Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but I could have sworn I had Long Rested during many of my playthroughs in her lair in the past. I wasn't able to beat her in any other way. Maybe a glitch then on my pc. Who knows?

Ah well. Whatever. It does look like Larian did some fixes on the hag lair. It was MUCH more reasonable this time through. I've another post discussing the actual changes that were made. It was much more fun this time through. Love some of the additions they made, and the biggest issue I had in the past defeating her was that she got surprise round in her lair and would multiply, blast the crap out of me with all versions of herself, disable all my buffs, somehow, that I had up previously, and all before I got a chance to go. I couldn't sneak into her lair at all in the past, and I could never hit her either no matter how high I got or whether I was behind her or not. Seemed like the fight was practically impossible before.

Now. It was challenging and fun, and I absolutely loved the addition of using Speak to Dead on her. Astarion speaking to her dead corpse was appropriate and creepy and made so much more so because of the new animations.

THAT's the kind of thing I was posting about to begin with. Very rewarding. I only had to use a few short rests, and even that I probably could have gotten away with not doing if I'd played better. I only used them because of past experiences. I thought there was no way I could beat her if I didn't. I even knocked out the adventurers as opposed to killing them, which is a lot harder.

So the hag's lair is no longer an example either of what I was saying about needing more rewards for good roleplaying. In fact, again, like the owlbear, looks like Larian is already doing just what I was asking for.

So see? I'm not out here complaining. Just offering suggestions when I run into things that seem off to me. When I find something working right, I say it, and when I'm wrong about something, I'll admit it...once I see the error of my ways anyway. Ha!

Come to think of it. Does anyone REALLY know whether Larian HASN'T put anything in place if you use too many Long Rests? Is this something people are just assuming? I don't think I've really ever tested it. Can you just Long Rest your brains out and nothing happens? Perhaps I've just assumed that's the case myself. I wonder how many Long Rests I've truly ever used in the game prior to reaching the Underdark. Hmmm...Maybe something new to test. smile
Originally Posted by GM4Him
OK RagnarokCzD. I'm sorry to offend you. Truly am. Many times I'm on my phone or I can't see your name or the spell check changes it to something weird. I didn't know it would upset you to mistype it.
These are all rather strong words, I would say a little annoying, but that's all. wink

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I hope that we can stop being opposed to one another in these threads.
I never was.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I really don't want to argue endlessly with people about something Larian may or may not implement.
I never forced you to do that, and since you ignored several of my reactions, I didn't even feel like you were forced to do so: D

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Right now, we are focusing too much on the owlbear situation
Not quite, I literally talked about the situation, if instead of owlbear there was any other, big, carnivorous animal ...
So the argument with "monstrosity" instead of "beast" was completely irrelevant in that situation. And even so, it might make sense for a druid to attack the animal, it's all about the point of view.

In our country we have a saying:
"He who wants, seeks ways ... he who does not want, seeks reasons." wink

Originally Posted by GM4Him
So bad roleplaying would be to allow the thing to live and go about your business.
Good roleplaying would be to kill it.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong again ...
What if my character plays a calculating evil warlock who has no interest at all in risking his own life in a fight with an animal (or monstrocity) that doesn't threaten him at all?

Then the right roleplay is just to let it be. wink
As I keep saying, everything is just a matter of perspective, it's not about putting "good" and "bad" labels.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
can you honestly tell me that it makes sense to you that my good cleric of Tyr confronts the hag in her home, she escapes with Mayrina, he fights some Red Caps and makes his way down to her lair, fights some masked adventurers and then decides to call it a day, head back to his camp, chill there for the remainder of the day, get 8 hours of sleep, head back to the hag's lair where he left off and then enter her inner domain and fight her?
It depends ...
The problem with this example is that it is designed to fit the conclusion you want to draw. But it does not depict the whole situation completely.

Personally, I think that even a most conscious and dedicated paladin (or cleric if you want) of Tyr, would interrupt the whole campaign against Hag and go to rest if he were at the end of his strength. After all, Marina had survived the last few weeks, as her brothers had told us ... and that we would run into her lair with full parade and die a heroic death there, because we had been on the verge of death before that ... well, let's say that it won't help anyone much. laugh
I agree that it may seem like a gamble ...
But even the most heroic heroes must approach their work responsibly.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
BUT, if I don't play this way, I have a REALLY hard time beating the hag. Shoot! I just played the Red Cap battle today and quit. Gonna have to reload. Full health, fresh slots, and played it with the intent to save my slots and such because I'm trying to manage my spells wisely and so forth so I can get to the hag with slots to spare. In other words, I was trying to play it in a way where I wouldn't need to Long Rest prior to facing her.

The Red Caps kicked my butt. Ethel poisoned me, giving me disadvantage on all rolls, and without using spells I was dying real fast.

So I'm forced to play in a way where I have to expend all my spell slots and such killing the Red Caps because it's a tough fight and then Long Rest some time between that fight and the hag's lair or I'll never beat the hag. Thus, my good cleric of Tyr is forced to go against his character. He is forced to use all his spells, and the spells of the rest of the party, just to get to the hag, then spend the remainder of the day chilling at camp, sleep 8 hours and return to face her as if it was no big deal to do so.

Please note: I did not say all this because I want advice on how to play the game.
So what can i tell you ...
You were out of luck. laugh

No, really now ...
Fights in Baldur's Gate 3 are definitely not static, and a fight with the same opponent can one day prove as impossible as a primitive thing with the same party (true, it usually wants to change tactics) ...

I admit that it is a little harder for me to get into this situation, because when I tried to save Marina's brothers, I had to go through the whole swamp within single long-rest ...
My group was: Wood-Elf Land-Druid, Gale (Abjuration), Astarion (Tief) and Shadowheart ...
True, I took advantage of all the benefits that the game provided ... high ground, stealth, weapons diping, etc. ... so I defeated her relatively easily, on the second try, on the first, I just distracted Ethel with my main character and with Astarion (under the guise of Shadowheart's blessing) I just shoved her into the hole. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
People tend to think that helps. It doesn't.
It's up to you what you take from it.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I will likely die unless I spend all my spells and take a Long Rest.
Maybe you wouldn't be so in danger if you read the other people's advice. laugh
As I said, there are ways to walk literally through the entire swamp without using a single spell slot. wink

Originally Posted by GM4Him
When a hag has just kidnapped someone, there is a sense of urgency - or at least there should be if this was a real life scenario. Roleplaying is about putting yourself in their shoes. Can you honestly tell me that if a hag had just kidnapped someone you wouldn't be urged to push forward to try to save her if you were a good cleric of Tyr?
Yes, you ask the same question as before ... and therefore, of course, you get the same answer as before:
Not at the expense of one's own life. wink
As long as my benevolent cleric is able to continue, he will continue ... the moment he evaluates that his strength is running low, all he has to do is do what needs to be done and hope that the worst does not happen.

After all, the Hag seems to want the girl for something. wink

Originally Posted by GM4Him
ALL this being said, for you who think all I'm doing is complaining and trying to change the system
So far, you have managed not to ask for a better reward or advantage ...
From my point of view, this is an improvement.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
AND she wants that tadpole. This, however, is never clearly explained.
I don't think she wants it, how did you even come up with that?
As far as I know, Ethel wants to use an unknown spell on your eye ... and refuses to tell you the reasons.
Nothing more, nothing less ... it even comes to me, judging by her reaction, that she clearly despises the type of tadpole you have in your head.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
SO, my suggestion now for this scene in particular, if Larian doesn't want to restrict Long Rests for story immersion purposes, is to have the hag at various points taunt you as you are making your way into her lair, like she does when you are examining different trophies in her sanctum. Heck! She taunts you from start to finish, so adding a few more taunts would only add to the flavor of the side quest. The taunting could be something like, "Take as much time as you need, Deary. I'm enjoying our little game. You sure you don't need to rest? Don't worry. I'll wait for you. The prize is well worth the wait." Once you are getting close to her lair, have her taunt again by saying something like, "You sure you want to face me right now, Pet? You're looking a bit worse for wear. Maybe you should get some rest first. Take the rest of the day off. I won't go anywhere. Promise. I want you at your best when I CRACK YOUR SKULL OPEN AND RIP THAT WIGGLER FROM YOUR POMPOUS LITTLE BRAIN!!!"
I like that, except perhaps the last sentence, as I wrote above ... I don't feel like she cares about the tadpole in any way.

On the other hand, I honestly don't believe that one would have a long rest during this scenario.
This is already indicated by the fact that long rest is not possible here.
And don't be mad at me, but if you really need them as desperately as you write here, maybe you're really just doing something wrong. :-/

Originally Posted by GM4Him
And PLEASE untie dialogues from rest. I want my character development without having to End Day all the time.
We have talked about this countless times ...
You claim to want a friendly debate ... but you ignore everything that has been said so far on this topic and keep repeating the same sentence as a jammed record. That's not how I imagine a debate.
Sorry RagnarokCzD. Just never mind. I no longer care, to be quite honest. I honestly wasn't trying to debate with anyone. I just wanted to make a suggestion. That's it. I played the game, didn't like something, made a suggestion and tried to explain why I thought it made sense and why I thought it would be good for the game.

I have never wanted to debate. I don't like debates. I wasn't trying to anger anyone. I wasn't trying to create problems. I really just wanted a safe place to give my honest feedback about the game. If Larian likes it, great. If not. Whatever. I like the game either way.

And, honestly, I didn't ignore everything you said. I read your responses. I just didn't understand where you were coming from. Seemed like you didn't understand me either. You think you understand me, but based on your responses it seems like you still don't. That's why I thought maybe there was a legitimate language barrier.

And frankly, I think this is perhaps where the misunderstanding is coming in. I have never wanted to debate with you. You seemed to always take it that way, but I have never wanted a debate at all from anyone. Every time I responded, it was to explain why I wanted the change that I wanted. Nothing more. Nothing less. I wasn't trying to debate about which way is the right way to play the game. I really just literally wanted to provide suggestions to discuss ways I thought the game could be made better. If you notice, sometimes I agree that I was off base, like the owlbear and the hag lair. I probably should have replayed the hag lair after Patch 4 before using it as an example. I should have looked up owlbears again and how a druid might respond to them prior to using that as an example. Ah heck! I even gave up on the idea of limiting inventory slots because after I made the suggestion I tried it out and realized that it wasn't a good idea after all.

So see. I'm not trying to be a fierce debating warrior here. I'm just wanting to play the game and offer advice as I see it to make the game more fun. That's it. No debates. No arguments.

But, you know, it's probably me. So whatever. I don't care anymore.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
So, starting a new one. This one's purpose is to day that I feel like Larian, as my DM, punishes me for good role playing.

1. I don't search every container and body and push myself to hurry to find a cure for myself and my companions.

Punishment for good roleplaying: I miss out on finding cool books and gear because Im trying to escape a burning mind flayer ship blasting through the Hells. This holds true through the whole game. Rush to the gobbo camp or Gith creche, miss out on tons of stuff.

Solution? Auto search. Perception checks find good items instead of hunting for them through all the junk.

I have issues with the tons of empty containers and this is something that has been discussed a lot... But I'd hate an auto search button.

I don't really understand why "auto search" would be "better roleplaying" than manually open every containers in our character's situation but anyway.

I'd like a lot less empty (or full of crap) containers. I don't like to waste my time managing useless bones and opening tons of useless things. Items are very poorly distributed in the world and a container with 3 gold is also a part of what I call "useless containers".

Originally Posted by GM4Him
2. I don't end day frequently because Im racing against time to save myself and others.

Punishment for good roleplaying: I miss out on lots of character development and convos.

Solution? Untie rest and convos.

I don't have any problems with conversation during rests. But they should be more clear about the fact that you finally won't turn into a mindflayer and/or tone down the "we're going to turn into mindflayer in a few days!!".

The game and its story doesn't suit such urgency and it wasn't clear to me that finally, a few days won't change anything.

I always had this "threat" during the game and at the same time I could rest for days without any consequences... And that makes no sense.

Maybe I missed some details but this kind of things shouldn't appear on details (a conversation I missed ? A book I didn't read ? Idk)

This is more about the story telling than the dialogs at camp to me.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
3. I don't use tadpole powers.

Punishment for good roleplaying: I don't meet the dream person at all.

Solution? Make it so that if I rest too much the dream person starts to appear. If I use tadpole powers, they appear faster.

Not sure about the solution but definitely, the game need to be something more than "use the tadpole, have powers, use stronger items, have dreams" or "don't use the tadpole and... Nothing".

I'm confident about it. It was clear that the good path wasn't implemented at the beginning of the EA.

I'm only playing good playthrough in such games and it would be a huge dissapointment if playing good was still uninterresting (at the moment it is and nothing special happen, you even don't really understand the story).
I'm actually good on auto-search now. I didn't realize that holding Alt pretty much did what I was suggesting. I just wanted some sort of way for my character to tell me what they see so I'm not playing a Hidden Objects game trying to find every important item in a room. The key in the Necromancer's Lair is a perfect example. I didn't know Alt would highlight items like that when I get near, so I went all over every pixel of that chamber for a LONG time searching for the key to get into that locked area, and this was on my umpeenth playthrough. I'd forgotten where the darn key was and couldn't find it simply because I didn't hover over it just right. So I'm good on that now.

I just had an issue with having to Long Rest so much or I miss dialogue. I have had many times where I literally just long rested, my characters start a fresh new day, I ran for 5 minutes, no fighting, nothing, and suddenly Astarion or whoever tells me they are exhausted and need to call it a day. Why? There was some sort of End Day dialogue that was ready to be triggered. Made no sense to me. If I ignored the character saying this, because I thought, "I just started a new day and you want me to End Day already?" then I missed the dialogue. It would never occur because I ignored the character saying they were tired.

So it isn't that I have a problem with convos happening during rests and at camp. I just thought that being forced to Long Rest simply because someone has a dialogue to trigger makes no sense. It's one thing if I long rest because I need to; low on health and spell slots and so forth. It's another thing to make me long rest just because Gale wants to create an image of himself and tell me more details about turning into a mind flayer. Then he tells me to hurry up and get some rest so we can get to finding a healer because we shouldn't be resting so much because we have a tadpole in our heads. So first he tells me he's tired and needs to End Day just so he can talk to me, then he tells me I shouldn't be resting so much because I have a tadpole in my head.

And if I ignore my characters telling me to long rest, I miss out on this cutscene that I thought was rather fun when I actually did trigger it.
The "I'm tired, can we rest?" indicators for camp conversations aren't working at all in my games. If I go to camp when someone says they're tired, no one has a conversation ready. When someone has a conversation ready, no one says they're tired. confused

Maybe my playstyle is messing it up; I tend to long rest all the time at the beginning of a run, trying to proc Gale's conversations and prevent cutscenes from overriding each other, but once I know I've seen all the camp cutscenes - typically around the time of the party - I cut way, way back and mostly use short rests. It could also be that these are placeholder triggers for camp cutscenes which will be coming in the future - I certainly hope we'll get more, they seem a bit unevenly distributed at the moment.
Hmm.... I get it all the time.
In case of the use or non-use of tadpole powers, I think, there will be a payoff for not using them later. And let's be honest, the whole dreamlover sequence is creepy as hell...

About long rest: I wish, they would make companion conversations available anywhere not just during long rests. I have managed to get Gales Weave scene exactly once in all my playthroughs. Even if I'm longeesting like mad, there is always someone else more important before the Weave scene.
Originally Posted by fylimar
In case of the use or non-use of tadpole powers, I think, there will be a payoff for not using them later. And let's be honest, the whole dreamlover sequence is creepy as hell...
I believe i have readed somewhere around here some datamined consequence of both decisions ... if you are curious. wink
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by fylimar
In case of the use or non-use of tadpole powers, I think, there will be a payoff for not using them later. And let's be honest, the whole dreamlover sequence is creepy as hell...
I believe i have readed somewhere around here some datamined consequence of both decisions ... if you are curious. wink

No, don't spoil me, I want to find out by myself, but hood to know, that there is already something implemented.
I didn't think they truly knew. I thought it was speculation.

I agree. Don't want to be spoiled though. Some of this EA experience is trust in Larian. Hah! A lot really.

I've never played DOS 1 or 2. Supposedly they are incredible games, so I have faith they'll pull through on BG3.
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