Larian Studios
Posted By: GM4Him Untie Dialogues from End Day - 19/03/21 02:35 PM
Title says it all. Let me have character development as I travel with characters. If a dialogue makes more sense only in camp, make it happen in camp the next time I go there. Right now, I miss dialogue unless I End Day a lot. If I don't End Day when the game indicates that a dialogue is available, the dialogue is not there when I actually do End Day.

Example: Gale's Mirror Image Dialogue, which is fun. Unless I End Day when the Tutorial tells me to, just after fighting devourers with Shadowheart, Gale's Mirror Image dialogue never triggers. Instead, when I do End Day, I get his Go to Hell dialogue. Both are fun, and I'd like to experience both when I play the game.

So maybe, instead, Gale's Mirror Image Dialogue is the first one I have with him the first time I End Day regardless of when I End Day. The next time I End Day and talk to him, I get the Go to Hell dialogue, etc.

Same with ALL dialogues at camp.

You could also make these dialogues available whenever I go to camp, rather than just End Day, so that if I go to camp to switch party members, etc., the dialogue is available.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 19/03/21 02:57 PM
You know, it happened to Astarion in my last playthrough and it broke all of his dialogue. In some situations he's simply did not react like everyone else, because this dialogue was transferred to the next day. Perhaps it is not so easy to do this because of some "special" situations must respond to. For example, a party or the use of a tadpole. These scenes should happen for everyone on the same day, but if you reschedule the previous ones, something may go wrong.

Now I am also not very happy with the system of dialogues in the camp. It would be nice if dialogues appeared outside camp or in camp but without sleep. We can move to camp in middle of day, right? For some situations, we don't need night, so it would be a good option. We just need to make some kind of "signal" so that we know that a dialog has appeared.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 19/03/21 08:50 PM
You allready mentioned it in several threats ...
And create another one will not make it good idea. :-/
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 20/03/21 02:27 AM
Again. You think its not a good idea?

I decided to put these in their own separate threads because on the other thread people are focusing too much in one thing I said instead of on each item. This one is swallowed up by all the fighting over whether there is urgency in the narrative.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 20/03/21 09:25 AM
Obviously ...
I mean im not even exactly sure how dialogues works so far, since i keep reading about people missing this one or that one ... but i still somehow manage to have them all, or more likely manage to not even realize that i missed some. laugh

I certainly not quite like the idea of talking everytime we get to camp, but im not exactly agaist it ... as long as we are talking about those companions who are just camping there anyway. :-/
But it sounds like much less good idea for the others, since then our companions will demand imediate return to camp, just so we can talk. :-/

Try to imagine the situation:
- You just finished fight against some bunch of goblins, or gnolls, or w/e ...
- Gale wants to talk to you ...
- So you gather your things, and go to camp ...
- There Gale summons his mirror image and start to admire himself, not care about you at all ... O_o

Or another one:
- You just finished fight against some bunch of goblins, or gnolls, or w/e ...
- Gale wants to talk to you ...
- So you gather your things, and go to camp ...
- There Gale asks you how did you like his Stew (or w/e he was cooking) ... O_o

Or final one:
- You just finished fight against some bunch of goblins, or gnolls, or w/e ...
- Gale wants to talk to you ...
- So you gather your things, and go to camp ...
- There Gale just stares to fire and tells you to "Go to hell" ... laugh

As it is right now it makes perfect sence to me ...
Day is intense, we focus on our curent problem all the time, and dont disctract oureselves with other matters.
Night (or evening if you wish) on the other hand, is easy time, we are resting, we have time to think and talk.

I agree it would be nice, if our companions say something like "i would like talk to you before we go sleep today" and maybe either some indicator that you have conversation pending before you go to sleep, or posibility to talk with our companions in the morning after sleep would be nice.
But i dont like the idea of interupting our traveling just bcs we just gathered enough aproval, so our companion have sudently something to say. :-/
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 20/03/21 12:41 PM
I want to have those companion talks in more exciting locations than the boring base camp I always have to go back to for some reason.

Set up camp in an abandoned Wizard's tower in the Underdark and talk to Gale about the Weave there.

Light up the furnace in the underground temple and talk to your companions by the fire.

Jeez how boring the forced camp is, actually.
Posted By: grysqrl Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 20/03/21 05:25 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
<snip>
As it is right now it makes perfect sence to me ...
Day is intense, we focus on our curent problem all the time, and dont disctract oureselves with other matters.
Night (or evening if you wish) on the other hand, is easy time, we are resting, we have time to think and talk.

I agree it would be nice, if our companions say something like "i would like talk to you before we go sleep today" and maybe either some indicator that you have conversation pending before you go to sleep, or posibility to talk with our companions in the morning after sleep would be nice.
But i dont like the idea of interupting our traveling just bcs we just gathered enough aproval, so our companion have sudently something to say. :-/
The thing is, so much of the day is filled with walking around between places (either seen by the player or not, because long resting just returns you to wherever you were when you hit the button) - most of it doesn't feel that intense. I would love to have some interaction to break up all of the walking around. They try to do that with little bits of banter, but why not just interject the cut scenes when you're out on the road? They could have some combination of "we need to talk tonight", "we need to talk right now", and things that could also pop up at any of a number of designated spots on the map that tend to indicate you're walking between places rather than being in the thick of things.

And some of the things that your companions want to say don't make any sense at all for them to wait; certainly not until nighttime. Wyll should be furious when you agree to help Minthara - not after you finish killing all of the tieflings. He should ask you right away (or once Minthara is out of earshot) what your intentions are and, if you say that you're going to help Minthara, immediately leave the group, warn the tieflings, and fight on their side. You could tell him that you're actually planning to betray Minthara (which might involve a persuasion or deception check, depending on your intention) and then he'd play along. Even if that conversation didn't happen right then - if he's there when you turn on the tieflings, there's a high chance that he turns on you and joins them. Waiting until you're at the party afterwards feels incredibly wrong.

I'm in the group that tries to long rest as infrequently as possible because it feels like there should be more mechanical urgency to match the story. It means that I get very few of the bigger conversations with other party members and it feels wrong.
Posted By: Tarlonniel Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 20/03/21 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by grysqrl
Wyll should be furious when you agree to help Minthara - not after you finish killing all of the tieflings. He should ask you right away (or once Minthara is out of earshot) what your intentions are and, if you say that you're going to help Minthara, immediately leave the group, warn the tieflings, and fight on their side. You could tell him that you're actually planning to betray Minthara (which might involve a persuasion or deception check, depending on your intention) and then he'd play along.

Wait, hold on. I remember having exactly this conversation with Wyll, at exactly the point you mention, including the option to tell him you're setting Minthara up (which is what I was doing). Have you played that scene since the last patch?
Posted By: grysqrl Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 20/03/21 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by grysqrl
Wyll should be furious when you agree to help Minthara - not after you finish killing all of the tieflings. He should ask you right away (or once Minthara is out of earshot) what your intentions are and, if you say that you're going to help Minthara, immediately leave the group, warn the tieflings, and fight on their side. You could tell him that you're actually planning to betray Minthara (which might involve a persuasion or deception check, depending on your intention) and then he'd play along.

Wait, hold on. I remember having exactly this conversation with Wyll, at exactly the point you mention, including the option to tell him you're setting Minthara up (which is what I was doing). Have you played that scene since the last patch?
I haven't played in a while, so this is based on remembering from patch 2 or 3. That was just an example - if that's what they've done in this case, that's great! Companions should be reacting to things as they happen as much as is possible/practical.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 21/03/21 09:36 AM
Originally Posted by grysqrl
"we need to talk right now"
When companions wants to talk "right now" they just get huge yellow "!" marker abowe their head ...
So ... that is kinda allready there.

Originally Posted by grysqrl
And some of the things that your companions want to say don't make any sense at all for them to wait; certainly not until nighttime. Wyll should be furious when you agree to help Minthara - not after you finish killing all of the tieflings. He should ask you right away (or once Minthara is out of earshot) what your intentions are and, if you say that you're going to help Minthara, immediately leave the group, warn the tieflings, and fight on their side. You could tell him that you're actually planning to betray Minthara (which might involve a persuasion or deception check, depending on your intention) and then he'd play along. Even if that conversation didn't happen right then - if he's there when you turn on the tieflings, there's a high chance that he turns on you and joins them. Waiting until you're at the party afterwards feels incredibly wrong.
This is completely different matter ...
We are talking here about dialogues that ARE happening in camp.
Posted By: grysqrl Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 21/03/21 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by grysqrl
"we need to talk right now"
When companions wants to talk "right now" they just get huge yellow "!" marker abowe their head ...
So ... that is kinda allready there.

Originally Posted by grysqrl
And some of the things that your companions want to say don't make any sense at all for them to wait; certainly not until nighttime. Wyll should be furious when you agree to help Minthara - not after you finish killing all of the tieflings. He should ask you right away (or once Minthara is out of earshot) what your intentions are and, if you say that you're going to help Minthara, immediately leave the group, warn the tieflings, and fight on their side. You could tell him that you're actually planning to betray Minthara (which might involve a persuasion or deception check, depending on your intention) and then he'd play along. Even if that conversation didn't happen right then - if he's there when you turn on the tieflings, there's a high chance that he turns on you and joins them. Waiting until you're at the party afterwards feels incredibly wrong.
This is completely different matter ...
We are talking here about dialogues that ARE happening in camp.
My point is that not every dialog needs to happen in camp at night - most of them probably shouldn't. Some are small things that can happen on the road as you're walking around. Some of them should happen during short rests. A few of them (like the Wyll thing) should happen immediately. And some can happen during long rests.

Right now, all of these things are happening only during long rests, which means that people that are playing as though there is some urgency and trying not to rest a lot are missing out on a lot of the group development. It also means that the consequence of an action might be temporally removed from the cause if you go a long time without long resting; it feels wrong.

I'm arguing that story moments should be spread out more to come up closer to when the thing that caused them happens - not just during long rests.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 21/03/21 06:24 PM
Yes. And my point has always been that End Day means almost 24 hours goes by. It isn't just 8 hours like it should be based on 5e rules.

So the problem I have is when the game forces me to long rest for almost 24 hours for absolutely no reason other than to have a conversation with a party member.

If it has to happen at camp for some reason, at least make it so that players can trigger the dialogue by fast travel to camp instead of End Day.

If it only makes sense to trigger at End Day, like Astarion trying to bite you while you sleep, that makes sense and should of course be only triggered at the end of the day. Otherwise, doesn't make sense.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 21/03/21 07:07 PM
Well, so far you manage to give us one example, and you were imediatly told that example is working exactly as you expected it. O_o

So i really dont see your problem.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 21/03/21 07:14 PM
I gave an example of when it works. Yes. Don't want that to change.

When doesn't it work? I land on the beach. I meet Shadowheart. I fight devourers, Tutorial teaches about End Day. If I don't End Day right then, I never trigger Gale's Mirror Image dialogue. I barely did anything, might be full health with full spell slots, but game makes me End Day or miss dialogue.
Posted By: grysqrl Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 21/03/21 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Well, so far you manage to give us one example, and you were imediatly told that example is working exactly as you expected it. O_o

So i really dont see your problem.
My problem is that I miss most of the story moments because the plot of the game is set up to discourage long rests while the mechanics are set up to encourage long rests. Consequentially, I don't have a ton of examples, because I don't get to see them. One, off the top of my head is Gale's looking at his own mirror image thing. There's no reason that this needs to happen at night. It probably shouldn't happen while you're in transit, but it could totally come up during a short rest. I assume there are other scenes like this. Why make them all only come up only during long rests, where they are competing for space and so you end up losing out on story moments? Pepper them in throughout the game.

If I'm out wandering around with people, I'm talking to them the whole time. Why is it that in this game, most of those discussions are reserved for when we get back to camp at night? It doesn't make sense and it means that people are missing out on story.
Posted By: Kajsentlyha Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 21/03/21 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
When doesn't it work? I land on the beach. I meet Shadowheart. I fight devourers, Tutorial teaches about End Day. If I don't End Day right then, I never trigger Gale's Mirror Image dialogue. I barely did anything, might be full health with full spell slots, but game makes me End Day or miss dialogue.

I never end my day there and I always get the mirror image cutscene. I usually rest once after completing the overgrown ruins and once after the grove fight + underground passage + harpies and always get both the "go to hell" and "mirror image" cutscenes as long as I don't talk to Nettie, which would trigger Raphael and override the mirror image scene.

While I do agree that some convos that currently only occur at end of day could happen along the way (e.g. Wyll's convo about seeing Tav fight at the grove gate) I believe that the "go to hell" and the "mirror image" scenes only make sense at the end of the first and second day.

I also don't like the idea of going back to camp every time someone has something to say. It's already bad enough having to go back there at the end of the day. It would be nice if short rests could be turned into something more than a quick way to heal/reset skills and could give you the chance to catch up with companion convos you triggered while adventuring.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 21/03/21 07:45 PM
I also don't like it when characters say they want to call it a day just because a convo can be triggered. To me, a natural first Long Rest should be after the Dank Crypt. Anything before that seems too soon. You barely did anything. What is that? An hour at most of the day to land on the beach, roam about, meet some people, and explore a dungeon that isn't that big. Characters shouldn't be tired and needing a rest just after facing a few mercs.

That's why I think each long rest should also be only 8 hours with 2 long rests a day. That makes more sense. I might rest 8 hours twice before the Druids grove but not 2 days.

So Raphael is a perfect example. I am currently doing a playthrough where I haven't long rested at all because I haven't needed to. Im at the druids grove. Im going to meet Nettie. So not Gale Dialogues for me. I miss them entirely because I played well and didn't End Day after playing maybe an hour.
Posted By: Elessaria666 Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 21/03/21 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by Kajsentlyha
It would be nice if short rests could be turned into something more than a quick way to heal/reset skills and could give you the chance to catch up with companion convos you triggered while adventuring.
This is basically the answer right here. By making short rests into a mini-instance you triple the chance to proc conversations, increase incentive to take short rests rather than long rest every encounter through the game, and can give them some in-game relevance like using rations or whatever. As things stand it's way too easy to miss too much content, which basically boils down to wasted dev time and effort. They've worked so hard to make these interactions really interesting and compelling, but I have over 100hrs now in-game and I don't think I've seen more than half in any single playthrough. That sucks, both for players and for creators.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 21/03/21 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
If I don't End Day right then,
I never did ...
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I never trigger Gale's Mirror Image dialogue.
I allways had. O_o

And concidering other comemtaries, im not the only one. O_o

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I barely did anything, might be full health with full spell slots, but game makes me End Day or miss dialogue.
See and that is the problem ...
Game provides you mechanics, you refuse to use them, game even tells you that you SHOULD use them, you ignore that either ... and then you dont like the outcome. :-/
In fact whole game (maybe except two, three fights) can be done without spending single spellslot.

You call that "good roleplay" ... and all you see is your HP and number of used spellslosts ...
Your character just woke up after being abducked by aliens, survived flyting through hell, escaped that ship and multiple times fight bunch of brain-tentacle-claw beasts ...
If that is not enough to demand a little rest, i really dont know what is. laugh

Originally Posted by grysqrl
Consequentially, I don't have a ton of examples, because I don't get to see them. One, off the top of my head is Gale's looking at his own mirror image thing. There's no reason that this needs to happen at night.
Next time i shall answer for this argument, i start quoting myself ...
But lets repeat. laugh

There is reason for this to happens at night, during day your characters are solving most pressing matters, at evening (or night if you wish) they have free time, therefore there is enought space for reading, thinking, playing with githyanki toys, and talking.
Its just that word people uses so often around here to justify their own opinions ... its imersion. laugh

Originally Posted by grysqrl
It probably shouldn't happen while you're in transit, but it could totally come up during a short rest.
I dont quite see how ...

Either you would need to return to camp for every short rest ... wich sounds both ridiculous and anoying.
Or you would risk stucking gale, or his mirror image in other obejcts ...
Also if you see it from purely RP perspective, it also does not make sence ... just imagine, you just finished fighting the goblins, decide to rest ... and sudently Gale instead of resting decide to spend his spellslot to summon his own mirror image so he can admire himself? laugh

Originally Posted by grysqrl
I assume there are other scenes like this. Why make them all only come up only during long rests, where they are competing for space and so you end up losing out on story moments?
Dunno, maybe ... possibly ... probably ...
But that could be also resolved by simply allowing players to have multiple conversations in row instead of only the last one. O_o
Posted By: Kajsentlyha Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 21/03/21 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
To me, a natural first Long Rest should be after the Dank Crypt.

That's exactly where I do my first long rest and get the go to hell scene. The problem is the mirror image scene can easily be missed if you:

- speak to Zorru > triggers Astarion cutscene
- speak to Sazza > triggers Shadowheart cutscene
- trigger Gale's reveal in some way (I still have no clue what triggers it, I miss it most of the time so I could be wrong about this one)
- speak to Nettie > triggers Raphael's cutscene
- find the dead boar/find Edowin (not sure exactly what's the trigger, but when I go beyond the underground passage I usually miss the mirror image scene, so I rest before I go there...)

Most players will probably trigger the first three or four cutscenes on the same day (and very likely also the fourth), which means that they will never see the first two (possibly three).
End of day cutscenes should be queued, they shouldn't override one another. I also don't see why Astarion's and Shadowheart's cutscenes can't be available at the same time once you trigger them. Why should one override the other? There's no reason why I shouldn't be able to speak to both on the same night. And if some cutscenes do need to take precedence (e.g. tadpole sickness cutscene) the others should just be postponed to the next long rest. But since, as things stand, even the queue could get too long, it would be best to have some of these cutscenes happen along the way, preferably during short rests.
Posted By: Kajsentlyha Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 21/03/21 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by grysqrl
It probably shouldn't happen while you're in transit, but it could totally come up during a short rest.
I dont quite see how ...

Either you would need to return to camp for every short rest ... wich sounds both ridiculous and anoying.
Or you would risk stucking gale, or his mirror image in other obejcts ...
Also if you see it from purely RP perspective, it also does not make sence ... just imagine, you just finished fighting the goblins, decide to rest ... and sudently Gale instead of resting decide to spend his spellslot to summon his own mirror image so he can admire himself? laugh

You wouldn't need to return to camp, you could do it on the spot sitting on a log, around a table or in a room you just cleared from enemies (there are a lot of suitable places around) and you would get the chance to speak to companions. Of course it wouldn't work for the mirror image scene, because that scene only makes sense at the end of the day imho, but Wyll could comment on seeing Tav fight at the grove gate, SH's magic (or whatever that is) could act up or she could play with the githyanki artifact. There's nothing about these scenes that ties them to the end of the day, the first two could happen any time along the road, the third could require just a short rest imo.
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 21/03/21 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by grysqrl
It probably shouldn't happen while you're in transit, but it could totally come up during a short rest.
I dont quite see how ...

Either you would need to return to camp for every short rest ... wich sounds both ridiculous and anoying.
Or you would risk stucking gale, or his mirror image in other obejcts ...
Gale already has a dialogue cutscene that can happen anywhere outside of camp, namely the 'resurrect me' one. If the risk of "stucking gale" didn't stop Larian from implementing that, it shouldn't be a problem for other scenes.

I have been spamming long rest on every playthrough (except the first one, where I missed out on most content) and camp dialogues bug out anyway. In fact, my impression is it has gotten worse in patch 4.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 21/03/21 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by Kajsentlyha
Originally Posted by GM4Him
To me, a natural first Long Rest should be after the Dank Crypt.

That's exactly where I do my first long rest and get the go to hell scene. The problem is the mirror image scene can easily be missed if you:

- speak to Zorru > triggers Astarion cutscene
- speak to Sazza > triggers Shadowheart cutscene
- trigger Gale's reveal in some way (I still have no clue what triggers it, I miss it most of the time so I could be wrong about this one)
- speak to Nettie > triggers Raphael's cutscene
- find the dead boar/find Edowin (not sure exactly what's the trigger, but when I go beyond the underground passage I usually miss the mirror image scene, so I rest before I go there...)

Most players will probably trigger the first three or four cutscenes on the same day (and very likely also the fourth), which means that they will never see the first two (possibly three).
End of day cutscenes should be queued, they shouldn't override one another. I also don't see why Astarion's and Shadowheart's cutscenes can't be available at the same time once you trigger them. Why should one override the other? There's no reason why I shouldn't be able to speak to both on the same night. And if some cutscenes do need to take precedence (e.g. tadpole sickness cutscene) the others should just be postponed to the next long rest. But since, as things stand, even the queue could get too long, it would be best to have some of these cutscenes happen along the way, preferably during short rests.

And THAT is exactly my point. THANK YOU.

Aside from this, it is annoying when players say they are tired just to let you know you have a dialogue ready. It's too much. I think one time I had someone say this, I rested, walked five minutes, and someone else said it. I had to End Day twice in 5 minutes just because they wanted to talk.
Posted By: grysqrl Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 21/03/21 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by grysqrl
Consequentially, I don't have a ton of examples, because I don't get to see them. One, off the top of my head is Gale's looking at his own mirror image thing. There's no reason that this needs to happen at night.
Next time i shall answer for this argument, i start quoting myself ...
But lets repeat. laugh

There is reason for this to happens at night, during day your characters are solving most pressing matters, at evening (or night if you wish) they have free time, therefore there is enought space for reading, thinking, playing with githyanki toys, and talking.
Its just that word people uses so often around here to justify their own opinions ... its imersion. laugh
Maybe try less condescension.

A group of people spending the entire day together are going to talk and have interactions all day long. It's weird that these discussions would happen exclusively (or even primarily) at night.

When I go to work, I don't just put my head down and do 8 hours of work without talking to anyone. I'm frequently talking to the people around me about what I'm doing or what they're doing or what we're doing together. Everyone that I've ever worked with does this. We're social animals - not machines. Your suggestion that people should just have all of their conversations at night detracts from immersion - it's not how people behave.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by grysqrl
It probably shouldn't happen while you're in transit, but it could totally come up during a short rest.
I dont quite see how ...

Either you would need to return to camp for every short rest ... wich sounds both ridiculous and anoying.
Or you would risk stucking gale, or his mirror image in other obejcts ...
Also if you see it from purely RP perspective, it also does not make sence ... just imagine, you just finished fighting the goblins, decide to rest ... and sudently Gale instead of resting decide to spend his spellslot to summon his own mirror image so he can admire himself? laugh
If you can't see how, that seems like your problem. Of course they don't need to return to camp every time they short rest. Of course Larian can figure out how to have Gale and his mirror image not collide with objects. Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done.

From a spell slot perspective, I am perfectly willing to assume that he's using Minor Illusion or is using magic in a way that isn't perfectly encapsulated in an existing cantrip. He's playing with a simple illusion, not disintegrating someone.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by grysqrl
I assume there are other scenes like this. Why make them all only come up only during long rests, where they are competing for space and so you end up losing out on story moments?
Dunno, maybe ... possibly ... probably ...
But that could be also resolved by simply allowing players to have multiple conversations in row instead of only the last one. O_o
I'm fine with that, too, if they can make the transitions between them convincing. I still think they should happen at various times throughout the day.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 22/03/21 03:17 AM
No matter what way I slice it, important or fun dialogue needs to be removed from End Day. If I choose to not End Day until I reach Nettie, I miss all the dialogue beforehand. I have done both resting a lot and resting a little, and again, unless you rest and obscene amount, you miss it all.

Some scenes might be needed for night and at camp, like Astarion trying to bite you. In those cases where it absolutely must be at night at camp, I say then they all should trigger eventually in some sort of que and order. Only those absolutely needed at End Day Camp would fall in this category. Otherwise, yeah. Short rests or Fast Travel to camp should also let me trigger them. They could even show us talking at camp if I short rest and a dialogue triggered, like we fast traveled there and talked. Whatever. They just need to make most dialogues not End Day.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 22/03/21 09:59 AM
Originally Posted by grysqrl
When I go to work, I don't just put my head down and do 8 hours of work without talking to anyone. I'm frequently talking to the people around me about what I'm doing or what they're doing or what we're doing together. Everyone that I've ever worked with does this.
Do you often work to remove a magical parasite of extraterrestrial origin from your brain?
If not, then I would venture to assume that you are put a little less pressure on you than on our heroes. wink

Originally Posted by grysqrl
Your suggestion that people should just have all of their conversations at night
And that is funny ...
Since i never sugested that. laugh

What im actualy sugesting, is keep things as they are now:
In field, we are focused on curent matters.
In camp, where we have time, we can talk about other things.

Originally Posted by grysqrl
From a spell slot perspective, I am perfectly willing to assume that he's using Minor Illusion or is using magic in a way that isn't perfectly encapsulated in an existing cantrip. He's playing with a simple illusion, not disintegrating someone.
Cantrip that he unlearn once the conversation is done?
Yeah, why not ...

Originally Posted by grysqrl
I'm fine with that, too, if they can make the transitions between them convincing. I still think they should happen at various times throughout the day.
I dunno ...
I was thinking about allowing to talk with companions any time you visit the camp ... it still feels off to return to camp to "just talk" ... but to be honest, whole returning to camp at any time except for sleeping is quite odd and seem completely iracional ...
So, i presume it would be acceptable. :-/
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 22/03/21 02:43 PM
One of my current playthroughs, I still have not had to long rest, and I'm pretty much all the way through the Druid's Grove, including the goblins in the tunnel. Haven't faced the Harpies, but I'm still going strong. I've even still got one more short rest to use and a bunch of healing items.

So case in point. I don't need to Long Rest. Therefore, I will not get a lot of dialogue cutscenes because I'm not Long Resting because I don't need to Long Rest. I'm still on Day 1.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 22/03/21 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
One of my current playthroughs, I still have not had to long rest, and I'm pretty much all the way through the Druid's Grove, including the goblins in the tunnel. Haven't faced the Harpies, but I'm still going strong. I've even still got one more short rest to use and a bunch of healing items.

So case in point. I don't need to Long Rest. Therefore, I will not get a lot of dialogue cutscenes because I'm not Long Resting because I don't need to Long Rest. I'm still on Day 1.

They should force you to rest.
Your characters are probably exhausted.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 22/03/21 03:17 PM
Why would they be? According to Dialogue log, I've only experienced a few hours of Day 1, I have good HP, and I still have spell slots. Gale hasn't even used Arcane Recovery yet.

Again. Story-wise, I am told many times up to this point that at any moment I might start to see tadpole symptoms that will turn me into a Mind Flayed. Not one dialogue yet has said otherwise. So I'm playing based on the idea that every moment counts because that's what the game has told me.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 22/03/21 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Why would they be? According to Dialogue log, I've only experienced a few hours of Day 1, I have good HP, and I still have spell slots. Gale hasn't even used Arcane Recovery yet.

Again. Story-wise, I am told many times up to this point that at any moment I might start to see tadpole symptoms that will turn me into a Mind Flayed. Not one dialogue yet has said otherwise. So I'm playing based on the idea that every moment counts because that's what the game has told me.
It's reasonable that the characters are absolutely exhausted at this point in the first day. You also have to consider that they were in mindflayer pods for an indeterminate period, injected with a tadpole (probably not an energy conserving process), and then had to frantically escape the ship. Plus, because there is no time in this game, it's equally likely that it's noon or midnight. We were kidnapped from the city during the daytime, so it's not unreasonable to suggest it's getting to be afternoon/evening around this time.

I'm in favor of Larian ~forcing a rest this first day to ensure that players get that first night's cutscene. My suggestion is to, after encountering Lae'zel, give all characters a level or two of exhaustion and some dialogue saying that "it's been a long day and we need to rest." The player can continue, but maybe will get additional levels of exhaustion every ~10-20 minutes.

Alternatively/in addition, one of the characters could notice a hoard of too-strong-to-face goblins approaching requiring the party to search for a place to hide (the campsite) where they have no option but to rest and wait the goblins out. The game could give you an option to actually fight them off, but I'd want them to be actually too strong to face. Like 20+ goblins plus a few ogres. And hey, with the new Flee mechanic, you could even choose to face the goblins, see that they're too powerful, and then flee to camp upon which the first camp cutscene would play.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 22/03/21 05:01 PM
Although I don't 100% disagree, I mostly disagree. I mean, you are right. It is reasonable to force a rest. I agree that the characters have been through a lot and there is no mention of just how long they have been awake prior to the events of Day 1.

Still, I'm not sure I'd be able to rest well knowing I have that thing in my brain. I also don't think I'd rest well especially if I triggered the scene where I watched the person in the pod getting changed into a Mind Flayer right before my eyes. I'd probably push myself harder in an attempt to find a healer. I'd have desperation driving me hard especially if after short resting twice I still have good HP and spell slots. Again, it's only been maybe 2 hours of gameplay at most even according to the Dialogue Log, so it's not hard to believe that I could still be pushing myself a bit further before needing to Long Rest.

And, again, when I was a brand new player, the first time I played this game I did this exact same thing. I thought, "Oh HECK no! Did you see that nasty thing they put in my brain? I'm getting this thing out as soon as possible. I'm afraid if I rest too much I'm going to turn into a Mind Flayer." And then, after Gale described it in great detail, and Lae'zel too!...I was like, "Oh HEEEEEEEECK no! This game's clearly going to turn me into a Mind Flayer if I Long Rest too much." Back then, I had no idea I could Long Rest however many times I wanted without repercussions.

So I'm thinking about the First-Time Player here as well as myself. It is natural for a First-Time Player to think that they shouldn't rest much or they are going to turn into a Mind Flayer. At least, I'd think it would be. Maybe it's just me.

Regardless of whether I'm in the minority on this or the majority, shouldn't they design it to meet the needs of the minority too? What does it hurt those who Long Rest often if they que up dialogues so that whenever you Long Rest you experience them in some sort of order. Each long rest triggers 1 or more dialogues, depending on how many you have qued up prior to Long Resting? You still get your dialogues if you Long Rest a bunch of times prior to the Druid's Grove, and you still get your dialogues if you push yourself to Long Rest after you've gotten through the Druid's Grove or even longer if you can push yourself longer?

So I still don't get why people resist the idea of untying the dialogue from Long Resting so that you don't have to Long Rest a ton of times prior to when you really NEED to Long Rest. What's the point of Short Rests at all if you FORCE people to Long Rest all the time. The entire idea of Long Rest and Short Rests and Healing Items is for players to strategically manage their resources. If you allow people to abuse the Long Rest, and even FORCE them to abuse the Long Rest, then you don't really need all those healing items and potions and Short Rests are really not necessary anymore. All of it is meaningless and just useless unless you limit and discourage Long Rests. Right now, though, Long Rests are heavily encouraged, and you want to force them to Long Rest as well.

Yeah. No. I think that would make things worse.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 22/03/21 06:38 PM
What you're trying to say through those threads is that there is a big problem in the story.

You're right and I guess most players would agree even if it's more or less important for each of us.

Yes, this sense of urgency is just a fake. Yes, the story telling is not really good partly because of this.
They should probably find something between the "find a healer or you'll die in 7 days" and "nothing happen even if you rest 45 days" because at the moment that's exactly what the story is.

On the other hand, as I said in the other thread everything looks like work in progress.
The resting system is not good, there are lots of issues in the story/the quests, the dialogues with companions have bugs,...

I'm not a big fan of dialogues only at camp but on the other hand... Why not ? If going to camp make sense for a few reasons it's not really an issue. We have to deal with it because that's their vision. Your suggestions looks like a complete other system instead of an improvement.

If they tone down a bit the fake urgency, resting is not a problem anymore and your "good roleplaying" definition wouldn't make sense anymore.
It looks like a more reasonable suggestion to me.
Posted By: grysqrl Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 22/03/21 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by grysqrl
When I go to work, I don't just put my head down and do 8 hours of work without talking to anyone. I'm frequently talking to the people around me about what I'm doing or what they're doing or what we're doing together. Everyone that I've ever worked with does this.
Do you often work to remove a magical parasite of extraterrestrial origin from your brain?
If not, then I would venture to assume that you are put a little less pressure on you than on our heroes. wink
You are creating a false dichotomy and your assumption is irrelevant. People under pressure are still people. Being under pressure doesn't mean that you stop talking to the people around you. Our characters aren't in fight or flight mode non-stop for 16 hours a day before they spend 5 minutes chatting with exactly one of their companions and then drift off to a peaceful sleep.

Also, the implication that because I haven't been in the exact same situation as the characters means that I can't understand what they're going through is ludicrous. The entire purpose of stories is that you can empathize with other people without having to suffer the consequences that they are experiencing.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
What im actualy sugesting, is keep things as they are now:
In field, we are focused on curent matters.
In camp, where we have time, we can talk about other things.
No we aren't. Our companions find time to chat with each other about idle matters as we wander around - why is it that the PC is excluded from this?

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by grysqrl
From a spell slot perspective, I am perfectly willing to assume that he's using Minor Illusion or is using magic in a way that isn't perfectly encapsulated in an existing cantrip. He's playing with a simple illusion, not disintegrating someone.
Cantrip that he unlearn once the conversation is done?
Yeah, why not ...
Casters can do all sorts of things in the story that aren't exactly spells. The weave cutscene you have with Gale definitely isn't a spell from your spellbook. The "mirror image" thing that Gale does isn't the actual Mirror Image spell - that doesn't create sound. It feels reasonable for characters to be able to do trivial things like this to suit the story, even if we, as players, don't have access to that particular ability in the game.

Lae'zel can probably do a cartwheel. I bet she's great at it. If she did one in a cutscene, it wouldn't surprise me at all. (I assume she would kill something as part of that cartwheel, but that's more about her personality than her ability.) I have no problem with the fact that I, as a player, can't make her do it whenever I want.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by grysqrl
I'm fine with that, too, if they can make the transitions between them convincing. I still think they should happen at various times throughout the day.
I dunno ...
I was thinking about allowing to talk with companions any time you visit the camp ... it still feels off to return to camp to "just talk" ... but to be honest, whole returning to camp at any time except for sleeping is quite odd and seem completely iracional ...
So, i presume it would be acceptable. :-/
I don't think you should return to camp to talk. Frankly, I don't think there should be a camp to return to at all, even for sleeping - you should really just be camping wherever you are. But that topic is already well-tread in other threads; I don't feel a huge need to delve into it here.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 22/03/21 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
We were kidnapped from the city during the daytime, so it's not unreasonable to suggest it's getting to be afternoon/evening around this time.
Im sorry, but i believe we actualy dont know when we were kidnapped, nor how long were we on the ship ...
The city we have seen in cinematic is Yartar, but our character is Baldurian (or Underdark resient, or something entirely else for Gith, if im corect).

I mean, its certainly possible that we just "were in Yartar" when attack happened ...
Since there is really low chance that our Drow or Gith character was there, i presume Larian will give us all the same origin, and we were kidnapped and kept it that pod some time before cinematic happened. smile

Originally Posted by grysqrl
Being under pressure doesn't mean that you stop talking to the people around you.
Never claimed that ... you must missunderstand me.
I believe that when you are under pressure, on top of life threatening pressure, you are focusing on your current problem.

You dont admire yourself in the mirror (image), you dont phylosophy about things that used to be abstract, you dont speak about your previous life ... you are talking about that you just saw parasite crawling from someone skull, you do admire with few sentences that someone just saved someones life, etc. etc.

In short ...
There is time and place for everything, and so far i believe that Larian did good job with this.
It would be better if you can re-experience dialogues you just missed, no argue about that, and i believe there is zero reason oposing the option to simply move them to "next long rest" if they are owerwritten by something more important. smile

Originally Posted by grysqrl
Our characters aren't in fight or flight mode non-stop for 16 hours a day before they spend 5 minutes chatting with exactly one of their companions and then drift off to a peaceful sleep.
True ...

Originally Posted by grysqrl
Also, the implication that because I haven't been in the exact same situation as the characters means that I can't understand what they're going through is ludicrous. The entire purpose of stories is that you can empathize with other people without having to suffer the consequences that they are experiencing.
Well i never said you cant ...
All i said that your comentary makes me believe that you simply dont right now. :-/

Originally Posted by grysqrl
Our companions find time to chat with each other about idle matters as we wander around - why is it that the PC is excluded from this?
That is actualy brilliant point!

Originally Posted by grysqrl
Casters can do all sorts of things in the story that aren't exactly spells. The weave cutscene you have with Gale definitely isn't a spell from your spellbook. The "mirror image" thing that Gale does isn't the actual Mirror Image spell - that doesn't create sound. It feels reasonable for characters to be able to do trivial things like this to suit the story, even if we, as players, don't have access to that particular ability in the game.
Yeah, i might sound a little sceptic, but i was actualy agreeing with you.
My misstake. smile

Originally Posted by grysqrl
I don't think you should return to camp to talk. Frankly, I don't think there should be a camp to return to at all, even for sleeping - you should really just be camping wherever you are. But that topic is already well-tread in other threads; I don't feel a huge need to delve into it here.
Well i agree it would be nice ...
But also a lot of work, so far it seem like this game is kinda too big bite for Larian allready, i would not expect this.
Also im kinda fine with the camp, even if i believe it could be done better.
(I would give there Waystone, and add some resource you need to gather or buy to use them to limit long rests.)
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 23/03/21 04:36 PM
Hi Ragnarock. I'm curious. Is English your primary language? I'm not trying to be mean in asking this. I am legitimately wondering because I think we misunderstand each other a lot. It seems others have misunderstandings with you to. I get the impression that a lot of the time when I make a suggestion, you aren't fully understanding what I'm suggesting.

I hope you aren't offended by this question. It just seems to happen a lot between us, and I want to try to fix it rather than continue to have rather lengthy posts back and forth where we are totally missing what the other person is saying. Could be me, even. I know I've been guilty of miscommunicating on more than a FEW occasions. A language barrier, even a small one, might explain why we aren't understanding each other as well and I can try to adjust what I'm saying more to help.
Posted By: Vortex138 Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 23/03/21 05:16 PM
I suppose I play a bit differently, with more of an RP mind. Each battle that I face, I see it as a life and death situation, which for 1st through 4th level characters is actually true. Unless the battle is blatantly one sided, where even novices can discern that the battle will be easy for them, characters will ensure their own survival. So far, unless the characters know exactly where the enemies are (multiple play throughs and reloads), then they are going to be going into it with a feeling of dread and with their lives at risk. Too much long rests? Well, if you die before you can even get a chance to get the tadpole out, then it won't matter much. This type of play style does cause me to long rest more then most of you here, I imagine, but as such, I haven't missed any of the cutscenes. For me "immersion" (Hi Ragnarok. :-D) is playing the game as if I'm the actual characters dealing with each situation as they arrive. Would be great to just run straight to someone who can remove them, but alas, that isn't the case, and there are monsters and enemies galore trying to stop me.

Perhaps, this is the intention that Larian was going for. It's easy to run through a game with using minimal resources because you know where every enemy is and how to position your party to defeat them easily. Not so much when you are traveling a strange land with surprises at every turn.

Bu this is just my opinion. I could be wrong. wink
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Untie Dialogues from End Day - 23/03/21 09:14 PM
You aren't wrong, Vortex, except that you are assuming I don't play by putting myself in the character's role. Actually,that's why I I struggle with the current state. You rest a lot, and there's nothing wrong with that. I get that if you feel it is necessary to rest in order to continue then you should.

But my point is that Long Rest should only happen when you need it. In my first playthrough, I had no idea what was coming, and I was told Im going to turn into a monster very painfully in mere days. I was afraid to use long rest except as a last resort, so I pushed through until I reached the grove. I think I may have done 1 long rest so I didn't get all the dialogues.

All Im saying is that players should get all the dialogues that make sense to trigger whether they Long Rest often or not. That way they can still have all the character development.
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