Larian Studios
Posted By: VenusP Weapons special attacks - 29/05/21 08:41 AM
I see some people name them one of the good Larian’s homebrews which I kind of cannot agree with given the current state of this mechanic. Two handed weapon AOE attack are very much overpowered. Pin shot while not as overpowered still better suits to somebody who has mastered the respective skill rather than to anybody happened to posses a ranged weapon. Topple performed by mage is kind of ridiculous.

I see them as yet another attempt to inject more entertainment into the D&D combat workflow. As a skills they are kind of ok, but they shouldn’t be available just for anybody. Make them be obtainable through a leveling up or any other corresponding process which requires investments.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: Weapons special attacks - 29/05/21 10:19 AM
There's one actual feat not yet implemented in BG3 called Sharpshoot, which has something that works in a similar way to the homebrew abilities. It gives you the option of taking a -5 attack penalty while increasing damage by +10 if it hits.

Maybe the new abilities could be tied to a list of starting homebrew feats/abilities that you can pick from a list, and you could get trained to learn additional ones much later in the game. Going to quickly spitball ideas here, maybe archers could pick from one of three at the start of the game. (Okay, anyone could pick any ability, but for the sake of this explanation I'll just go with a list of what would be most relevant to them.)

- (Active Skill) Pinning Shot
- (Active Skill) Deadly Aim: Consumes your maximum movement points to enter a stance that adds a +5 attack modifier to your next ranged attack performed in the same turn. Activating this ability is considered a bonus action.
- (Passive) Steady Aim: The radius in which a ranged attack can be performed without disadvantage by being considered threatened or too close to an enemy is reduced.

(The latter two would be relevant to mages using spells that make attack rolls too.)
Posted By: Tuco Re: Weapons special attacks - 29/05/21 11:37 AM
I'm not particularly invested in it so I wouldn't shread a tear if it was removed, but I can't really say that I feel like ONE single cleave with a 2H weapon being available every short rest has any right to be labeled "too overpowered".
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Weapons special attacks - 29/05/21 11:49 AM
Arent those attack aviable only when you are profficient with that particular weapon? O_o
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Weapons special attacks - 29/05/21 01:52 PM
I actually like them cause they feel like the type of thing you'd ask your DM in a session, like "Can I try to swipe at their legs with my great sword to knock the goblin off of their feet?" but I do think toning them back a little would not be a bad thing.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Weapons special attacks - 29/05/21 01:57 PM
I don't like the gamey feel of these abilities.

Why can't I cleave with a Greatsword in a big arc as often as I like if I'm surrounded by goblins? Why can't I target someone's foot with a bow every time I want to slow them down? Being able to do those moves exactly once per short rest feels silly and arbitrary.

Special attacks could be balanced to have unlimited uses. Much like in NWN (3.x) you can use Knockdown or Disarm as much often you want but it comes with a penalty. The penalties can be attack modifiers, or drawing an AoO or basically anything. It's also weird you can cycle through each Cleave, Bash and Pinning Shot but you can't Bash three times.
Posted By: VenusP Re: Weapons special attacks - 29/05/21 02:16 PM
Yes, they are very arcade-y. If they wanted to grant player with more weapon-based abilities they should’ve been sticking to D&D philosophy: get a penalty to defense after a swing due to lost balance or have a penalty to attack performing a bludgeoning due to the need to hit with precision.

Instead we have the spear rush which deals equal damage to anybody in the line. I can’t even imagine how it’s possible. I love D&D for that you can understand where advantages and disadvantages come from using real world physical model. But this is from entirely different setting.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Weapons special attacks - 29/05/21 03:33 PM
I like the weapon special attacks. Ofc they're not all equally good, so work could definitely be put into adjusting them to be more useful.

I'd also be happy with a bigger change: making weapon abilities unlimited usage but coming with a penalty. E.g:
- Rush could have a -2 to hit on all attacks and provoke AoO from those targets.
- Cleave could be a -5 to hit on all attacks.
- Pin Down could be a -2 to hit and the target makes a Strength ST. If they fail, their movement is reduced by half (not just 3m).
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: Weapons special attacks - 29/05/21 05:01 PM
Hmm, for both Cleave and Pin Down I think I'd make the second effect, the slow or knockdown, a dex saving throw and just have that -2. Since it is on the enemy to resist by keeping their footing.
Posted By: Zellin Re: Weapons special attacks - 29/05/21 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
I actually like them cause they feel like the type of thing you'd ask your DM in a session, like "Can I try to swipe at their legs with my great sword to knock the goblin off of their feet?" but I do think toning them back a little would not be a bad thing.
Exactly. They shouldn't be removed, they should get some balancing as mrfuji3 suggests:
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I like the weapon special attacks. Ofc they're not all equally good, so work could definitely be put into adjusting them to be more useful.

I'd also be happy with a bigger change: making weapon abilities unlimited usage but coming with a penalty. E.g:
- Rush could have a -2 to hit on all attacks and provoke AoO from those targets.
- Cleave could be a -5 to hit on all attacks.
- Pin Down could be a -2 to hit and the target makes a Strength ST. If they fail, their movement is reduced by half (not just 3m).
After such changes, Larian can even remove that one-per-rest restriction.
And I would actually vote for more such abilities. As for me the more possible tabletop creativity the game will cover the better.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Weapons special attacks - 29/05/21 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
E.g:
- Rush could have a -2 to hit on all attacks and provoke AoO from those targets.
- Cleave could be a -5 to hit on all attacks.
- Pin Down could be a -2 to hit and the target makes a Strength ST. If they fail, their movement is reduced by half (not just 3m).
Sounds good ...

Im just currious why Strength? O_o

Constitution would make sence to me ... you were hit, but you supress your pain, and move on.
Dexterity would make sence ... you were hit, but you manage to avoid the most vital muscles.
But strength? O_o
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Weapons special attacks - 29/05/21 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I like the weapon special attacks. Ofc they're not all equally good, so work could definitely be put into adjusting them to be more useful.

I'd also be happy with a bigger change: making weapon abilities unlimited usage but coming with a penalty. E.g:
- Rush could have a -2 to hit on all attacks and provoke AoO from those targets.
- Cleave could be a -5 to hit on all attacks.
- Pin Down could be a -2 to hit and the target makes a Strength ST. If they fail, their movement is reduced by half (not just 3m).
Cleave would be great with Disadvantage or -5 attack. It would still be very much worth using against swarming fodder or 3+ enemies.

The spear rush AoE is silly and belongs in an action RPG rather than D&D.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Weapons special attacks - 29/05/21 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
- Pin Down could be a -2 to hit and the target makes a Strength ST. If they fail, their movement is reduced by half (not just 3m).
Sounds good ...

Im just currious why Strength? O_o

Constitution would make sence to me ... you were hit, but you supress your pain, and move on.
Dexterity would make sence ... you were hit, but you manage to avoid the most vital muscles.
But strength? O_o
My idea of Pin Down is that an arrow goes through your target's foot and physically pins them to the ground. Or through their arm/clothes and pins them to a wall. Thus, is requires a Strength ST to easily break free/pull the arrow out.

Constitution would also work, if you're interpreting Pin Down as hitting the enemy in the ankle/tendons.
Posted By: TomReneth Re: Weapons special attacks - 30/05/21 12:37 AM
I seem to remember them being limited to 1/short rest, so I don't find them overpowered. Useful to be sure, but I don't have a problem with martial characters getting a little extra punch in DnD compared to casters, who will not be able to use these abilities as reliably due to differing stat requirements and general survivability in melee range. You could try to topple that big brute beating you down... or you can cast Misty Step and put someone beefier than yourself between the two of you, casting out another spell or barrel or something to have a more generally useful round.

For most non-melee characters, I think they are mostly just "win more" abilities; let's you secure the victory you're already likely to have a little easier. For melee characters, correct use of these abilities can change the outcome of a fight.
Posted By: OcO Re: Weapons special attacks - 30/05/21 01:51 AM
The weapon attacks are perhaps the only Larian homebrew I not only may not end up modding to 5e after release, but I will probably look at rebalancing and adding to them even.

I seem to recall older d&d having more options for melee than just swing weapon at enemy. Without bothering to go look it up, I seem to recall things like being able to do "called shots" which offered negatives to the hit chance to target body parts for specific purposes...ie a called shot to the eyes(-10 to hit IIRC) would cause Blind. I think Disarm was a called shot to the weapon hand. Things along those lines though honestly it has been so long now I can't remember it clearly. Personally I'd like to see the system in BG3 tweaked a bit and expanded on.

All attacks should require proficiency in the weapon to be able to use them.

I'd give penalties to the attack and unlimited use over limiting them to once per rest/combat.

Change the single weapon specific special attack to a "special attack" list. Any 2h weapon should be able to "Cleave" because you are just swinging the weapon in a big arc in front of you, it doesn't matter if it is a sword/spear/staff or club if it is 2h it gets access to "Cleave"(maybe rename this?). Any weapon can be used to attempt to "Topple" someone if you attack their leg specifically(this is especially needed imo since BG3 doesn't break "Shove" down into shove back vs shove to the ground(Topple)). I'd be interested in hearing other ideas for attacks that might be added like a Disarm maybe. So every weapon would have access to a few options for special attacks.

I do understand where peeps are coming from in that they don't want things becoming to "arcadey". But for things like Disarm(which is in 5e but not BG3) and Topple(which is an action anyone can do in 5e), I can accept those as special attacks. As for something like Cleave,if balanced with a penalty to the hit or what have you, than yeah to me that is something someone might legitimately ask a DM to try to do.
Posted By: Ikke Re: Weapons special attacks - 30/05/21 10:31 AM
Originally Posted by OcO
Any 2h weapon should be able to "Cleave" because you are just swinging the weapon in a big arc in front of you, it doesn't matter if it is a sword/spear/staff or club if it is 2h it gets access to "Cleave"(maybe rename this?).

I doubt this. The weapon should be really sharp in order to be able to cleave through mutliple bodies. With a blunt weapon perhaps a kind of domino effect could be accomplished, but the adversaries should stand in a straight line for that, not an arc.
Posted By: OcO Re: Weapons special attacks - 30/05/21 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by Ikke
Originally Posted by OcO
Any 2h weapon should be able to "Cleave" because you are just swinging the weapon in a big arc in front of you, it doesn't matter if it is a sword/spear/staff or club if it is 2h it gets access to "Cleave"(maybe rename this?).

I doubt this. The weapon should be really sharp in order to be able to cleave through mutliple bodies. With a blunt weapon perhaps a kind of domino effect could be accomplished, but the adversaries should stand in a straight line for that, not an arc.

You are focused on the name "Cleave" IMO.

You are not actually cutting anyone in half to be able to hit the next target in line.

Have you ever watched the show Forged in Fire? One test they do on blades is swing it through say multiple stalks of bamboo in a row. While a sharp blade might cut through the entire row, a duller or blunt blade might only cut 1-2 stalks before continuing on to just smash its way through the bamboo but not actually cut it. Even a dull blade that doesn't cut through the bamboo at all can smash through it and cause snapping, a 2h blunt weapon would "Cleave" in the same way...by causing blunt force trauma to all targets in the arc.

Edit: Spelling
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