I have been lurking for a long time and have seen many conversations regarding disengage as a bonus action. It is certainly a legitimate problem, but to me the much more egregious issue is bonus action: hide.. and I don't see it mentioned nearly as often.

I've recently started multiple playthroughs as a murder hobo to try out classes and avoid too many spoilers for when I "really" play the game. Killing everything on sight, including companions before they even open their mouths. Once I got to the ranged classes, I discovered how easy it was to beat ANY encounter solo without anything even sneezing in my direction. Attack with my action, hide with my bonus action, watch everything stand around and do nothing until its my turn again, repeat. It's especially easy with Warlock spamming Eldritch Blast. Goblins.. Undead outside the Talkative Skeleton.. it doesn't really matter what the enemy is or how many there are.

Sure, part of this is due to AI. I've gotten so proficient at this that occasionally I won't even hide just to have enemies get closer to me and save some time... knowing they can't reach and will immediately lose me again anyway on my next turn despite being repeatedly zapped in the face. That part probably needs to be fixed either way or else you'd just have rogues doing the same exact thing (which they should be able to do somewhat but not to this ridiculous extent... at MINIMUM intelligent enemies should run to your last known location, move their cone of vision, and check it out forcing rolls). But the main reason (IMO) is the same as disengage.. the game simply isn't balanced for having these things as bonus actions. I don't see where the upside is, seems like a lose-lose situation in my eyes and I really hope it doesn't make it through too many more builds.

[edit] Adding quick video to show that I am referring to:

Good point. Once I’ve discovered how broken the stealth is I’ve stopped using it at all in order to keep battles entertaining.

Same. I Hide my rogue and maybe Shadowheart if I need her heals, but not any other character that it doesn't make RP sense to Hide.

I hope this is what we will see eventually as the AI gets better and better.
That hide as a bonus action is unbalanced, I agree with. I think it should be a bonus action for rogues, though. A lot of things that make the rogue unique have been taken away already, and I think this would at least somewhat balance it out again.

I don't know about this one, but to be honnest I'm usually not playing a lot with stealth.

But according to me in a turn based game it's completely ridiculous that you can hide as soon as you're in a creatures back. Just as backstab it's an exploit of the TB system that's completely uninterresting from a tactical point of view.
Being able to hide shouldn't be so easy at each turns. Hiding should be a real gameplay mechanic that rely on the knowledge and the use of the environment (light, verticality, walls...), on our characters builds and on our knowledge of the mechanic itself.

At the moment hiding is not something you have to think about. As a bonus action for everyone it's close to be free and if you suceed, once again you easily have other OP bonuses.
Even if some players can probably play better than other with it, It's usually another brainless mechanic you can use for the sake of it.

Ideas ?

First of all : I think every creatures should have 2 detections area.
- The first one is the visual one. The cone we actually have but any creatures should see a lot more further ahead. It could be very good if the further is the hidden character, the more the DC to see him is difficult.
- The second one should be the sound. A circle all arround the character would do the job if it's not possible to add real "noise" detection.

Second : we shouldn't have any bonuses of being hidden the first round after we click the button. Being hidden for an entire round should be necessary to have advantages and being "forgotten".
(easier variant : hide is an action rather than a bonus action...)

Third : I may be wrong but I think that if a creature have spotted you, you're considered visible for every ennemies. It would be better if it was individual.
There's not reason a creature engaged in melee can see my rogue coming in it's back, even if his friends see me with their eyes. It should be possible to hide for a specific ennemy and not for the entire group.

The DC to stay hidden should not be the same if you're in front of / behind / 5m away / 20 m away from the creatures.

This may be a bit complicated to implement and it's probably not a perfect answer but without any depth (what we actually have), mechanics are not fun even for the wider audience.
Players wants to be rewarded. Cheesy mechanics can be fun for a while but the reward quickly becomes uninteresting if it is constantly thrown at you.

Like yourself I didn’t play much with stealth, even through I played with rogue intending to test stealth. Advantage and sneak attack is far quicker to get through other means, and with jump and shove using bonus action to go stealthy kinda feels like a waste of action.

I like your suggestion (reminds me more or less of what Deadfire did - and different creatures could have different sound/vision cone depending on their hearing/sight). Walking through hearing cone might require a stealth check.

I can see how bonus action stealth can be problematic as it makes enemies unaware of our position - one could potentially take potshots and hide without AI doing anything, if that is how it works. Making hide full action would mean that unless you are a rogue, you can attack and hide on the same turn.

What OP suggests sounds like a solid idea as well - enemies “investigating” last known position, especially if there is no other target. There even could be units with “Hunter” mindset - enemies like rogues might prioritise looking for stealthy characters, over charging at full-plate armoured warriors.

Added the following video to OP to show what I am talking about for those who haven't tinkered with Hide much yet.

Yeah, that’s awful. Needs to be fixed.

Oh god yeah... another action economy issue aswell as an AI issue -_-

ngl, that's pretty funny.

I hope Larian sees this, but they might already be aware of it. +1 for the post anyway

Easily fixed. Just give it a multi-turn cooldown.

Huh? How would that fix anything on its own? All that would do is make it take longer... you can easily sit there hidden until the cooldown comes back up. I think that would be the complete wrong approach.

A cooldown is not really a fix. Part of the issue is pretty much everyone can Bonus Action hide when only rogues are supposed to be allowed to do that, which actually makes it that ever class can just attack then hide, and a cooldown would just make it that they wander out of the situation until the cooldown is done and the repeat the process.

Only Rogues should be able to Hide as a bonus action to begin with, same as with Disengage. Everyone else are meant to have to use a full action on those things. Together with Expertise not being in the game and Sneak Attack being a declared ability rather than automatic, the Rogues really are hobbled.

That aside, the simplest fix is probably for the game to treat the thing indicating our last known position as a homing beacon for nearby enemies, including that they might throw Alchemist Fire and such items up there for safety.

That would definitely help it after they readjust things to being how they should be, cause then you would have to move from that position and that would run the risk of being seen, and if you stay in that position you run the risk of being hit by an aoe intended to catch you.

Bumping as this was not resolved in Patch 5 (and I can no longer edit the OP to add this information). They made Disengage an action (good!), but did not change Hide.

In fact, based on my brief testing this issue seems to be WORSE in Patch 5. Example: If you attack Lae'zel in the tutorial, after you end your turn hiding she runs straight into the Imp room and attacks everything in there unprovoked. It is only after the Imps are all dead that she will revert to "standing around" like the video shows until you kill her. This also happens with the Imps at the top of the stairs outside. Instead of standing around after you hide, they now run and attack the cultists working the cannons.

I guess you can make the argument that since you are hiding.. they don't know what attacked them and just zerg everything in the area instead. While that may make sense thematically, it is terrible for a video game and IMO an AI downgrade. However, any changes to the AI (like simply checking the PCs last known location when they hide and force a roll, as I suggested in OP) is a bandaid and does not change the underlying problem. Which is Hide as a Bonus Action.

Rogues in general get the short end of the stick with BG3.
Everyone can potion chug bonus action, thats a Thief class feature.

Everyone can use scrolls even when not having the spell on their spell list (example: Fighters using scrolls) Thats a 13th level class feature for Thief (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Second story work doesnt add distance to jump with Dex mod and climbing is not really a thing in this game so instead they get resistance to fall damage lolwat.

Bonus Action Hide is already mentioned here. So instead Thief's get 2 BA. Wut. That turns them into Dual Wielding death machines, coupled with the fact that EVERY character add Ability Modifiers to their off hand attacks (I'd say this is a bug since Two Weapon Fighting is a fighting style in the game that does nothing)

No Expertise is also already mentioned.

Crit success and Crit Fail on ability checks. In 5e these ONLY apply to attack rolls. This will likely interfere with Reliable Talent class feature, since 1's should be treated as 10's. But it could very well not.

Mage hand having its own turn in initiative. Mage hands require a turn to control and cant attack, so therefore cant shove. Also is not invisible. ONLY Arcane Tricksters mage hand is invisible, and uses a BA to control. Its not free. Still cant attack or shove tho. Also sneaking mage hands???? wut.

This is awful, and probably the best way to show how broken this iteration of the mechanic is.
Sometimes, a minute of video is better than hundreds of words.

That also looks like an extra-ordinary boring way to play. I mean - it's clearly an exploit but at the same time the downtime between turns is horrendous. If someone wants to play that way it feels like the punishment is pretty apparent. Unless you have a good book to read between turns.

However, in Multiplayer it allows the rogue to avoid being targeted most of the time for attacks while the mobs will go after someone else. I am not sure if that is intended behavior or not!

Can you hide during combat or is that supposed to be not allowed in the PHB?

I mean, the turn duration would be almost identical. The only difference is that they are standing still instead of walking/attacking.
And you are taking no punishment at all, on the contrary, you are getting advantage all the time.

Here is the passage in PHB (p. 177, 10th print):

H I D I N G
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase.
An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.

In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.

Passive Perception.
When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5.
For example, if a 1 st-level character (with a proficiency bonus of +2) has a Wisdom of 1 5 (a +2 modifier) and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) of 14.

What Can You See?
One of the main factors in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area, which might be lightly or heavily obscured, as explained in chapter 8, "Adventuring."

You can hide during combat according D&D5e RAW. But it supposed to cost full action for everyone but rogue, so you wont be able to hide and attack on the same turn in most cases. And unless DM decided to put you against some really stupid and half-blind enemies, you would need to hide in more active way as in "While they blink, I duck under the table and stealthily get out on the left side of it", not just hide in a plain sight.

So usually you are not allowed to hide in plain sight --> some classes get abilites for that.

That means, imho, that when you are hidden and you initiate combat by attacking a creature, you get advantage on that first attack (e.g. by using a ranged attack, or by not beeing seen when aproaching --> Stealth check vs. Perception check).

Once you attacked, you gave away your position and for the other creature you are in plain sight (--> PHB p. 194, 10th print: "If you are hidden - both unseen and unheard - when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.") --> no more hiding, except for e.g. Skulker feat or similar.

yeah you can hide during combat, but not in plain sight. And as I have cited, in PHB on p. 194 it says, that you give away your position once you are attacking.

There are spells and feats to facilitate hiding again. These spells and feats are invalidated by letting a player hide again in combat "just because".

In the video hes not in plain sight tho, hes in total darkness. Theoretically he doesnt even need to hide for this unless those skeletons have darkvision within range. Either way they should be moving towards where the Eldritch Blast is coming from.

Ok, so this is a broken thing then. I mean the problem is, even if he isn't in plain sight - he is still firing arrows/magical blasts at the enemy and they are just not actively looking for him at all.

Like it's totally normal for my friend to have had his head explode like a ripe melon after that blast from the shadows which lit the entire room up - "so lets not explore that situation and maybe it will go away"

Or that arrow sticking out of my friends face "must be a birthmark I never noticed."

That's true and I'm going to check how the AI treats stealth now, cause they buffed it with the last patch.
But there is one problem still staying for sure - he's not supposed to be able to use Eldritch Blast and hide on the same turn by RAW. That's too OP. For a rogue the ability to both attack and hide is a way to mitigate the fact that he's not very good at tanking and may fight on the front lines at the same time and the way to buff his attacks, while he uses fairly weak weapons. And here we have Warlock, who can stay away from his enemies and keep fighting and uses Eldritch Blast which is quite powerful as it is.

I can bet that if the AI problem isn't solved with the last patch (the video is older), it will be eventually. Larian already know how to write the logic for that, they had it in DOS1-2. They had the AI even being nasty enough to just nuke the spot where they saw you last time with an AOE. And that light beam on the hiding spot is there for a reason.

Ok, again Larian is ignoring 5e rules instead of using them to not make it broken. Ok, so here is how it works in DnD 5e and it's perfectly balanced. Coming from someone who plays and leads as DM.

1. Bonus Action Hide is ONLY and EXCLUSIVE to Rogues on level 2. No other class can get it and there is no other way to get it in game.
2. Hide can only be made in combat if you are "heavy obscured" to enemy, meaning that they can't see you at all. So you can use Hide action in: total Darkness if enemies do not have Darkvision, Magical Darkness if enemies do not have Blindsight/Devil's Sight/True Seeing etc., thick smoke/fog (Like Fog Cloud spell) if enemies do not have you in their blindsight/tremorsense etc. range or Greater Invisibility unless again they have other senses to locate you. In short- enemies need to not being able to see you at all. There is Light obscured condition in 5e (like tall grass, light fog etc.) and heavy obscured (magical darkness, fog cloud spell etc.).

In practice is not that easy and common to use as you need to pair it mostly with some magical "heavy obscure" effect to allow you do it becasue encounters are not inside heavy obscured areas 99/100 times becasue why would they.

Every other class (unless they multiclass min. 2 levels into Rogue) would have to use Full Action to do that but they still need to be heavy Obscured.

Of course enemies can use their action any time to roll Perception check and try to beat your Stealth check for Hide and locate you. They can also use stuff like Fearie Fire, Detect Thoughts, Locate Creature, AOE damage and so on. Or find you with their Blindsight/Tremorsense/True Seeing if you are not behind total cover becasue then they just see you as you are not obscured at all.

So in 5e it's not that easy to do it and while it is potent tool for Rogue, it's not easy to set it up and it can be countered by many different ways.

We really should be advocating for this change more.

Yes. Also there need to be stealth circles (like Solasta) around each character who is in stealth, so enemies you're close to can roll Perception checks even if you're out of their field of vision.

Judging by how a big white marker appears when you go stealthy, I suspect the stealth system is, much like encumbrance was pre patch 5, not properly implemented. Barrelmancy is much more akward to do now I can't lug them all around so easily! I expect once AI is properly integrated with the stealth, movement to where you were in stealth (non humans can very often see in the dark after all) or even outright throwing things like alchemists' fire or such is going to start happening.

I try not to abuse hide, but if hide is no longer a bonus action I think it needs to be implemented along with adding dodge at the same time.

Bonus Action hide is a thing Rogues can do in 5e, but it should be a Cunning Action thing like Bonus Action Dash or otherwise triggered by an ability (I believe rangers get Bonus Action Hide eventually)... and also hide in general on a tabletop is judged case-by-case by the GM which in a video game context means adding tags in places to note whether there is enough cover or low enough light to pull it off.

I hear you, and I hope that they come up with an AI solution to the problem you point out and the potential cheese. However, even if that weren't the case, I think having hide as a bonus action for everyone also makes the rogue less appealing/unique/useful. The bonus action hide seems an important part of what makes the rogue stand apart.

Ya stealth is pretty gimmicky, if its still in the game pretty sure you can get multiple attacks off with the first person initiating combat from stealth also.

They do ... at 14th level.

It's actually a common complaint about the Ranger in 5e that they have to wait that long to get it. Honestly, Rangers getting it a lot sooner than that is a change I wouldn't mind Larian making.

You shall try the DND Rebalancing mod on Nexus, it revert most of Larians changes to actions and make it more stick to paper, I feel it a lot fun to play with the mod.

New patch, new bump! Initial tests in patch 6 show some improvements. For the initial Imp battle, it seems the response to all allies hiding is for the Imp to take the 'Dash' action and investigate your location. Previously they would all stand around like the video in the OP. This is the "bandaid" fix I suggested in previous posts. Video:



For the record I still don't like Hide as a bonus action, but at least they are attempting to fix it breaking the entire game. Can't say for sure yet if this is a universal AI change.. we'll see as I test other battles.

I've also noticed that the "Plotting next move" seems to be a bit faster, which is nice. Lae'zel's actions (see quote above) do not seem to have changed since the last patch. She still rushes in to fight all the Imps if you hide after attacking her.