Larian Studios
I'm aware it is probably early to give actual feedback on this, as the patch isn't out yet. But I'm kind of hoping that this thread can serve to centralise feedback on this topic, instead of having discussions of the new rest mechanism spread over multiple threads in different forum sections.

As described in the PFH3 and Community Update 13, the new system works like this :
  • Each food item has a nutritional value (well, Camp Supplies value).
  • When going to camp, you need to spend a certain amount of Camp Supplies to get a Long Rest.
  • If you don't have enough food supplies (or presumably if you don't want to spend them), you get a shallow(?) rest. (I'm not sure how this weaker long rest differs from a short rest.)

So with this system, we convert food to long rests. And we spend these long rests to recover all our combat resources (HP and all class abilities, including spell-casting). So we effectively spend food resources to recover combat resources.

Before diving in the general implications of this new mechanisms, I want to say that, at are level of implementation and quality-of-life, I feel like applauding Larian for having included an "Auto Select" button, which automatically selects from our food collection a set of items whose total Camp Supplies values minimally exceed the cost of a long rest. I now hope that this attention to detail and quality-of-life will next be turned to the inventory, the hotbar and the "spell-book" menu.


Exploration reinforced.

The first remark is that this ties exploration, one of the three pillars of many a good CRPG, to combat. Which doesn't sound bad at all.

I tend to think that roleplay is its own reward. Exploration is often its own reward too. I'm mostly thinking of lore books and harder-to-find areas. Exploration can also yield information which can affect our roleplay and the way the story unfold. But with this rest mechanism, exploration become more important.

On the flip side, since combat resources are spent in fights, and many combat encounters will be hard to avoid to progress the story, that means you now need to gather food to progress in the story. So exploration becomes a mandatory part of the game.

Players who engage in exploration and combat only will still be able to progress in the game. But Players in their 3rd playthrough who just want to try a different party and roleplay a different character, to see how the story changes, or generally players who want to focus on roleplay and combat, will be forced to engage in the food search. If Larian keeps their over-abundant containers, it will be harder to memorise where the food items are (in the same way that people may remember where the essential magic items are, and bypass the trash container-searching on later playthroughs).


Effective cap on long rests : difficulty implications.

The game may be locally easier or harder, depending on the exact distribution of food, combat encounters, how well we fared in the past few fights, etc. Standard resource management.

But globally, within a closed area like a whole Act, there will likely be a finite amount of food available. And thus a maximum number of long rests that can be taken in this area. That basically means : you must beat this area using at most this many long rests.

So this mechanism really has an impact on difficulty. I mean, that's quite probably one of the goals. But that means it should be accounted for in the difficulty options.



My suggestions and requests.


Gold for food ? Hunt renewable game for food ?

This is not a request but more of a question (which perhaps Patch 5 will answer, I don't know). Will it be possible to spend gold to get food ? Also, will the Survival skill allow to hunt for food ? (Not actively. Just assign someone at camp to this task.) The actual, underlying question is : how much will the amount of food (and thus long rests) available on a map/Act be limited to what we can find in containers ?


Camp Supplies cost of Long Rest : please not tied to a global difficulty parameter.

It is clear that, if this mechanism stays, the game's difficulty can easily be controlled by the cost of a Long Rest, measured in terms of Camp Supplies.

My request is that players can freely change this parameter, and some hypothetical global difficulty parameter (if there turns out to be one), independently.

It will not be true that a player who wants to reduce the Camp Supplies cost of a long rest (even down to costing 0) also wants easy fights. In fact, I can imagine players going for a high difficulty playthrough and not wanting to bother with finding food.


Time should still be a thing.

The resource management mechanism makes long rest harder to spam, which was immersion breaking.

But I hope the issue of time feeling like it doesn't exist at all will not be forgotten. Some things in the world should react to time passing. At the very least, our journal should properly account for the number of days past since the crash. Food For Long Rest doesn't change that.


What about the Danger Zone mechanism ?

Nick Pechenin outlined a Danger Zone mechanism in this interview. And it is completely compatible with the Food For Long Rest mechanism of Patch 5.

I hope it doesn't get ditched. Because having a long rest in a cave full of spider, or in a Goblin Fortress after having killed 1 or 2 leaders, is still going to make no sense. Food For Long Rest doesn't change that.
I'm going to just repost what I said in a different thread.

Long resting requiring resources now opens up the possibility of having narrative decisions based around this in the future, that wouldn't have had anywhere near as much of an impact under the old system.

Find a beggar asking for food on the road? You could give it to them, but you might need it for a long rest later too. Or one of your party members may know a spell that provides that food for them. Or there could be a situation later on where your whole inventory gets temporarily taken, and you'll have to go through a gauntlet of fights while scrounging only enough resources to long rest once or twice before you get everything back. The latter scenario would not be possible at all under the old system, outside of disabling the ability to long rest entirely.

On the other hand, this also opens up the possibility of introducing rewards that can alleviate any resource pressure rather than simply new gear. If you had a choice between something that lowered the supply requirement to rest by about half that would be useful for the entire game, or a new piece of equipment that you might end up replacing later, I wouldn't be surprised if more people actually opted for the former than the latter. DnD isn't exactly 100% about combat, which may seem ironic coming from someone like me who was laser focused on combat analysis before.

One has always gotta think about how the mechanics interact with each other, instead of examining them in a vacuum.

In actual practicality, I don't think this long rest resource thing will really change things all that much. You can probably still just steal everything you need from merchants. Some people who are really bothered by it should be thankful that they didn't go for the Pathfinder WotR solution, which was to take out rations entirely and replace it with a 'corruption' mechanic that results in stat penalties and an assumed immediate game over for resting too much in non-safe zones without returning to the main hub area for that chapter (and in actual practice, you'd hit the first stat penalty point for resting 3+ times in a single dungeon, which is pretty lenient).
I hate resource management, so I would like a toggle separate from difficulty to remove the requirement of having to use food for long rest.
D&D, ostensibly the core of what BG3 is based on, is a resource attrition system. Nearly every skill/spell in the game is based on the assumption that it is consuming some resource that will have some cost to replace. This is an attempt to implement that cost and I think it's great that they're doing it; without it, there's no way to balance the game's mechanics without tremendous amounts of rework. The points that Saito brought up about new narrative and mechanical possibilities are great. I'm excited to see what they do with this.

All that said, let's see what this looks like - there are ways to implement resource management to create pressure and interesting decisions without being particularly onerous. This isn't a wilderness survival game, so I don't expect extreme scarcity to be an issue. Hopefully, it can be tuned just enough to push players to see how much they can accomplish without taking another long rest, but not have to think about food all the time.
Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
Effective cap on long rests : difficulty implications.

The game may be locally easier or harder, depending on the exact distribution of food, combat encounters, how well we fared in the past few fights, etc. Standard resource management.

But globally, within a closed area like a whole Act, there will likely be a finite amount of food available. And thus a maximum number of long rests that can be taken in this area. That basically means : you must beat this area using at most this many long rests.

So this mechanism really has an impact on difficulty. I mean, that's quite probably one of the goals. But that means it should be accounted for in the difficulty options.
I don't mind resource management, but this isn't fun. The last thing we need is a shortage/limited amount of in-game food; this is not a survival sim. Give food to various merchants so you can buy and stock up before heading out, or allow you to craft food if you have the ingredients, which can also be purchased or gathered from the environment. Optionally, we can have "scrounging up food" as an integrated part of the resting UI, which allows you to make a dice roll and the result determines how much food you manage to scrounge up - so like a last-resort kinda thing if you've run out of food. Personally I don't need this optional bit but, it's just an idea.
They could make it so you can only carry a certain amount of food with you. So, say, you could head into the dungeon with three days worth of food and there might be some more food available in the dungeon. You shouldn't need more than that to make it through, but if things go poorly, you can always leave the dungeon to restock - there doesn't need to be scarcity in the world if you're limited in what you can keep with you at any given moment.
Originally Posted by Icelyn
I hate resource management, so I would like a toggle separate from difficulty to remove the requirement of having to use food for long rest.

+1, with something tied to difficulty as a second-best option. The resource managers can have their fun while I won't have to worry about getting dinner for the party each night. (How does this work for Astarion, anyway? Do the trail ration bundles have little blood packets for him?)
I would prefer the danger of being woken by enemies (which they may implement later) or stolen.

Your main camp buddies could gather food for you from time to time, so you could take with you to dungeons.
I am also not a big fan of resource management, but I am willing to test out this implementation. I just don't want to end up micromanaging everything to play the game... because it's a game, and not a job. Sven also mentioned that as you level up, it would take more resources. To me that makes zero sense, because if one would compare that to real life.. I actually eat less now when I am more experienced in life than I did in my 20's. Food needs should not change to some unrealistic feast one is required to eat just to get a good nights sleep say at level 13 for example. Food needs if this feature is permanently implemented should remain the same quantities as they are at lvl 1 as they would be at lvl 20. Now I would not object to say preparing for a specific activity (like a long ritual or fast) where one might need to stock up a little on nutrients. But that should be the exception, not the norm.
Obviously, we're all just speculating here, but why do we think there is a finite cap on food/rests? Merchants refresh their stock on long rests, and it's looking very much like they'll be introducing camp supply equipment packs for the purposes of rest, so you're not scavenging the map for bits and pieces of food - see here from the stream:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Value of 40 (so will be higher in stores due to mark-up, but nothing crazy).


We haven't seen these yet, but there are potentially other ways resting will be introduced in an infinite manner where it makes sense. Obviously the new resting system is just in its infancy, but we aren't sure if food-resting is the only option. For all we know, food isn't required if we're resting somewhere deem civilized or safe (i.e. in the Druid Grove). Alternatively, Resting via NPCs dialogues (think Planescape Torment) or Inns might actually be implemented now because they'll serve a function.

Lastly, there are also spells that technically fulfill the function of food do exist (i.e. goodberries), so that's might be another potential unlimited resources of resting.
Originally Posted by Icelyn
I hate resource management, so I would like a toggle separate from difficulty to remove the requirement of having to use food for long rest.
I didn't see anything about limits on fast travel. So it seems that a player could fast travel back if they don't have the resources. Which is a modest incentive to use resource management, without really being punishing.

Similar to Pokemon where if the player runs out of pokeballs they can either A) fly back to town or B) walk back past each defeated trainer. If the player is properly managing their item inventory they won't have to retread any part of the map.

Overall it seems healthy for the game, but I still want to play test it out first.
I get that they needed a method to gatekeep long rests... this is, after all, a consequence of not having any time keeping (which would be the best way to gate long rests.) Unfortunately, this creates a Food Quest mini-game that doesn't sound all that appealing.

I suspect that the resources are either going to be overly abundant (undercutting the purpose) or overly scare (becoming an annoyance.) But they really painted themselves into a corner here so I guess we shouldn't be surprised that they are struggling to paint their way out.
I really like this change.
I agree with what Saito said. This obviously needs testing but i think the new system does sound light enough to work eventually for most people (i have the feeling it won't feel that punishing than it is in other games like PoE or Pathfinder). And if many people are against it, Larian can always tie it to difficulty, obviously.
But i cannot say how glad I am that they are experimenting with this, this can add flavour to the game without being annoying, if its balanced properly.
Cant wait to test it next week.
The lack of food is probably a hollow concern.
Even during the gameplay demonstration we can clearly see that pre-packaged "Camp supplies" are an alternative to just using random food. And these will most likely be available for sale from merchants.
I'm not worried in the slightest that Larian may make this "too punishing" and if anything I would expect the exact opposite given their track record.

While this is a NET improvement over the previous implementation of rest, I'm still vaguely confused at the way Larian over-complicated this aspect of the game with a lot of unnecessary roadblocks when Kingmaker/Wrath of the Righteous was already showing a perfect template to manage party rest/supplies/food.

Also, resource management is GREAT.
This new feature looks awesome. I'm very positive about it because it could really improve the lack of ressource management in BG3, which is a core concept of DnD.

Spellslots, short and long rest and features recovery does not have any sense without some kind of limitation, which is what food may bring.

But I'm waiting to see.

If there is so much food that you can long rest after every combats even if you burn all your ressources, it won't be usefull. Same if those supply bags costs 40 gold and if you can carry tons of them.

On the other hand of there's not enough, it's gonna be hard and tedious for some people.

The balance is hard to find in "open world" maps but different options for different people could easily be a thing, I guess.
That said it's a great step forward for the resting system and I'm sure we'll have tons of suggestion to improve it after we tried it (if necessary, it will maybe be perfect).

Still waiting for day and night cycle, random encounters when resting in "mini camps", and I have a lot of questions that will probably be answered the 13th.
Originally Posted by Aazo
I am also not a big fan of resource management, but I am willing to test out this implementation. I just don't want to end up micromanaging everything to play the game... because it's a game, and not a job. Sven also mentioned that as you level up, it would take more resources. To me that makes zero sense, because if one would compare that to real life.. I actually eat less now when I am more experienced in life than I did in my 20's. Food needs should not change to some unrealistic feast one is required to eat just to get a good nights sleep say at level 13 for example. Food needs if this feature is permanently implemented should remain the same quantities as they are at lvl 1 as they would be at lvl 20. Now I would not object to say preparing for a specific activity (like a long ritual or fast) where one might need to stock up a little on nutrients. But that should be the exception, not the norm.
Actually Sven implies that is to do with the increasing size/complexities of your camp that you need additional food for, not YOUR character level. That said it will be interesting to see how that works if you game solo.
You guys realize the patch is not out yet right. Just playe the damn patch and then send entire pages of feedback :p
Originally Posted by Icelyn
I hate resource management, so I would like a toggle separate from difficulty to remove the requirement of having to use food for long rest.
same. I am one of those players who value RPGs for the storyline and interaction with their teammates. not for combat or resource management. In order to feed and satisfy the needs of my character, I can have sims. in fact, even in the 2nd BG there was an opportunity to have a lot of rest. she didn’t need anything like that. except that sometimes the rest was interrupted by various monsters. I understand the joy of those players who want to immerse themselves in the process more. this is not for everyone. most of us I'm sure. I just want to have fun. so I'll say it one more time. such a function as resource management. should be part of the difficulty level. well that's sad. how much i liked the 4th patch. the upcoming fifth upset me so much. I think it's worth skipping this so as not to lose your final interest in the game frown
Originally Posted by virion
You guys realize the patch is not out yet right. Just playe the damn patch and then send entire pages of feedback :p
Oh they will ... you can count on that. laugh
Quote
My request is that players can freely change this parameter, and some hypothetical global difficulty parameter (if there turns out to be one), independently.
Ideally you'll be able to make a custom difficulty with all sorts of sliders.
Food for long rests looked good, thought it would be interesting if say you could make a specific dish or meal and gain a bonus out of it. Instead of just spamming food.
Originally Posted by fallenj
Food for long rests looked good, thought it would be interesting if say you could make a specific dish or meal and gain a bonus out of it. Instead of just spamming food.

A good idea, a classic thing from Japanese games - elegant dishes that give a special bonus after a rest. Spam with food could simply restore you, but some specific, rare food could give a special bonus. Oh, if only they had animations like in Monster Hunter or FF... Well if not they can use RE8 method, still cool. But it would be great to see how all the companions eat in the camp.
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
I would prefer the danger of being woken by enemies (which they may implement later) or stolen.

Your main camp buddies could gather food for you from time to time, so you could take with you to dungeons.


Maybe have rangers, druids, and the outlander background able to collect food easier?
My preference would be to not have a million different kinds of food - if I suddenly have to worry about the difference between what happens if we eat a roasted pig vs a chicken vs a pile of cabbage, then the resource management part of this is going to get really onerous. I'd rather keep it simple - either you have enough food or you don't. To that end, I'd get rid of all of the individual kinds of food and just have rations; the choice of whether or not to rest at any given moment should be interesting, but I don't want to micro-manage my supplies to make sure that my character is getting enough fiber in their diet.

I really like the rest system in Pillars of Eternity. If you aren't at an inn and paying for a room, you just need generic camping supplies. These are readily available from nearly every vendor in the game (plus you can find them lying around), but you can only carry a limited number of them at a time. So if you're planning to be away from civilization for a while, you need to be a little bit careful about how often you rest while you're away or you might have to stop mid-journey to go resupply. The limit on how many you can carry is high enough that it's not really a concern that you're going to run out unless you're resting after every single battle. The system is pretty unobtrusive and doesn't detract from the fun parts of the game.

For people who are wary of having any hard restriction against long resting, another option would be to make long resting always possible, but if you don't have enough food on you it means that someone has to go out and find some (I imagine this part being entirely abstracted - you don't actually have to play out going to look for food). In this case, having people go out and hunt/forage for food creates a chance of a random encounter - this could be monsters spotting your forager, following them back to camp, and attacking or something more like getting confused about what is safe to eat and accidentally making a meal out of poisonous berries (make a con save or take a level of exhaustion or some other temporary debuff). This incentivizes you to make sure that you have enough food at any given time, but isn't a hard lock against long rests if you run out. It also creates opportunities for the environment where you are camping to matter more (e.g. types or likelihood of random encounters as well as rangers in their favored terrain have no problem finding food for the party).
+1 for the food requirement for resting.

This resource management will add tension and choice-making to the game, especially if Larian adds encounters where you could give your food to NPCs in exchange for [benefit]. The QoL aspects (having a single "camping supplies" item, as well as the "auto select" button) will make this process less tedious. Food is prevalent in BG3, so it's unlikely you'll reach a soft-lock scenario where have to beat an incredibly-difficult encounter but also can't fully long rest. At the very least, I imagine merchants will have ~unlimited Camping Supplies to purchase.

Problem
This change is meant to discourage long-rest spamming. However, it's unclear (unless I missed something?) if Larian has changed companion cutscenes, which currently ~require some level of long rest spamming. Hopefully, this update to camping means that Larian is working on un-tying long rests from companion dialogues.

Originally Posted by grysqrl
My preference would be to not have a million different kinds of food - if I suddenly have to worry about the difference between what happens if we eat a roasted pig vs a chicken vs a pile of cabbage, then the resource management part of this is going to get really onerous. I'd rather keep it simple - either you have enough food or you don't.
It looks like each food item just represents a different number of Camping Supplies, so you can mix and match food items freely to reach the target of 40 total supplies. Different foods don't have different effects.
For one they could start making MORE THAN ONE cutscene triggerable at each rest.
I get that in some specific cases some of them may be implicitly exclusive (i.e. when the cutscene involves the passing of several hours) but some of them are meant as short dialogues taking few minutes at most and there's no real reason for having a rule about "Just one companion interaction for each rest".
I can’t imagine lack of food will ever be a real problem (similarly as it is in Pillars of Eternity2). Food in EA was plentiful, and I imagine it will be on sale as well.

Perhaps, it could encourage players to optimise (use max spells before long rest, not spam long rest if unnecessary). There are scenarios where it could go wrong (food too hard to get, too fiddly to manage, too much food required on higher levels) but I wouldn’t be worried about that stuff. If anything it sounds more like “fluff” mechanic, that hard limitation - it should help in encouraging fun gameplay habits though.
Originally Posted by Wormerine
Perhaps, it could encourage players to optimise (use max spells before long rest, not spam long rest if unnecessary). There are scenarios where it could go wrong (food too hard to get, too fiddly to manage, too much food required on higher levels) but I wouldn’t be worried about that stuff. If anything it sounds more like “fluff” mechanic, that hard limitation - it should help in encouraging fun gameplay habits though.
Interestingly enough I think this system may actually incentivize me to use a long rest more often than i currently do, as it would finally stop from making it feel like I'm "cheating the system" while doing so.
Not sure this had been brought here but it looks like you don"t really "rest where you are".

It looks like you're teleported to a specific area that doesn't exist anywhere on the map (like the main camp) but with an environment that fit your previous location.
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Not sure this had been brought here but it looks like you don"t really "rest where you are".

It looks like you're teleported to a specific area that doesn't exist anywhere on the map (like the main camp) but with an environment that fit your previous location.

previous location? why not in the one where we are now? I think if we are in the underdark, then camp will be in the underdark, but not in the same place where we 'stay', but in this location. no? =0
From what I understand, they HAD to make a specific camp area for each world setting, because otherwise if you just dropped a campfire in the middle of wherever you're standing (which could be on a narrow bridge in the Underdark for example!), in cutscenes you might have characters walking through walls or on air, etc. Also imagine the lighting issues - world lighting vs specific cutscene lighting, light being affected by colours in your immediate environment, etc. This makes sense. Also from an RP perspective, you wouldn't just make camp wherever, you'd look for somewhere secure and out of the way of predators/enemies.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by fallenj
Food for long rests looked good, thought it would be interesting if say you could make a specific dish or meal and gain a bonus out of it. Instead of just spamming food.

A good idea, a classic thing from Japanese games - elegant dishes that give a special bonus after a rest. Spam with food could simply restore you, but some specific, rare food could give a special bonus. Oh, if only they had animations like in Monster Hunter or FF... Well if not they can use RE8 method, still cool. But it would be great to see how all the companions eat in the camp.
+1 food animations would be cool & rare foods for sure.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Not sure this had been brought here but it looks like you don"t really "rest where you are".

It looks like you're teleported to a specific area that doesn't exist anywhere on the map (like the main camp) but with an environment that fit your previous location.

previous location? why not in the one where we are now? I think if we are in the underdark, then camp will be in the underdark, but not in the same place where we 'stay', but in this location. no? =0

Yeah I wrote "previous" meaning "the location you were when you click the long rest button".
Probably not the best way of explaining things.

I understand the thing about cutscenes but honnestly I thought they have got rid of those camp that are nowhere on the map.
Specific spot in the underdark and in several locations is perfectly fine but this thing with camp that only exist in another dimension is really sad.

This part of the resting system update looks really cool and it will definitely be "more" immersive which is very important to me. But if it works like the main camp it will still be very strange to rest in an area that can only be reached when you're teleported by a button on the UI.

I hope I'm wrong but when he's long resting in the crypt I don't recognize at all the camp location (light, statue, ...)

Maybe those areas has been added to the maps ???
So much questions ! Can't wait to play this patch 5!
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Not sure this had been brought here but it looks like you don"t really "rest where you are".

It looks like you're teleported to a specific area that doesn't exist anywhere on the map (like the main camp) but with an environment that fit your previous location.
Well, they haven't been exactly secretive about this. Their explanation made it clear enough, I would say.

Originally Posted by Alexandrite
From what I understand, they HAD to make a specific camp area for each world setting, because otherwise if you just dropped a campfire in the middle of wherever you're standing (which could be on a narrow bridge in the Underdark for example!), in cutscenes you might have characters walking through walls or on air, etc. Also imagine the lighting issues - world lighting vs specific cutscene lighting, light being affected by colours in your immediate environment, etc. This makes sense. Also from an RP perspective, you wouldn't just make camp wherever, you'd look for somewhere secure and out of the way of predators/enemies.
Sort of.
First things first, even other games that allow you to "drop the camp wherever you are" like Kingmaker and WotR actually limit the options to areas where there's enough room to actually place one. It's not like you can "glitch" a temporary camp over any geometry with complete disregard for anything else.
And of course in these games you'd need to be at a minimum distance from enemies, too.

That aside, frankly I don't think that the trick of having "contextual cutscenes" with variable background (which it has already been used by plenty of other games before, for the record) would have been particularly harder to adapt to "contextual camps". I think it was just a deliberate choice from Larian to have these camps instanced.
I made a post about this on the Discord feedback page, but I'll post my concern here as well.

Restricting the Long Rest system is good. It is a necessary evil. However, unless they are very careful, the system could result in a softlocked save state. If you require a resource to be consumed in order for your player to heal or regain expended abilities, you run the risk of that player running out in the middle of a long expedition. If you are lost in a dungeon and you don't have enough supplies to fight your way back out, and you saved recently, you are SOL.

A softlocked save state can ruin a player's entire experience with a game. Back in the original release of Final Fantasy X, there was a situation your could get into where you were stuck on your airship. If you left your airship, there was a boss fight with a Doom Mechanic. So you could just get party whiped if you couldn't kill the boss fast enough. However you couldn't fly away either because of story limitations. So if you weren't a high enough level, your save was dead.

This isn't as extreme as that. But it's not an unrealistic outcome either. And the options of Game Over or Lose 3 hours of progress, can and will be a major turnoff for the more casual players. There are plenty of ways the developers can implement to combat this. And we have not put our hands on the system yet, so it could be a moot point. But the last thing we want to do is create a situation that could potentially cause players to walk away from the game. We need to make sure there are sufficient safety nets in place. Be it scavenging skills, partial restorations, or even a Pokémon style Escape Rope.
This is a good change. Long Rests needed some kind of limiting factor. I also feel that if they should make it togglable it should be tied to difficulty. After all, is Hard really hard if you can just spam long rests infinitely? Meanwhile anyone playing on Easy isn't looking for a struggle for survival in the face of overwhelming odds. They just want to experience the story.

This is also a system they can build on though. Druids should be able to use goodberry to contribute to your food reserves for the evening if they still have a slot left over. Rangers and people with the Outlander background should be able to forage for food or go hunting when at the camp to give you more free reserves than usual. Things that can make classes more meaningful toward the resource management side of the game.

I'd also like not having enough food for a long rest to be reflected in the dialogue. Just little side comments your party makes like "I am so hungry..." or "I guess we won't be having breakfast either..."

If you skip multiple days you might even start taking a penalty to your party's opinion of you. Nobody likes going without food after all.

Originally Posted by Vorian
I made a post about this on the Discord feedback page, but I'll post my concern here as well.

Restricting the Long Rest system is good. It is a necessary evil. However, unless they are very careful, the system could result in a softlocked save state. If you require a resource to be consumed in order for your player to heal or regain expended abilities, you run the risk of that player running out in the middle of a long expedition. If you are lost in a dungeon and you don't have enough supplies to fight your way back out, and you saved recently, you are SOL.

I don't think there's a risk of this here. So far you can walk away from just about any encounter and make your way back to town if you need to, and there are so many ways to resolve an encounter that even if you somehow couldn't get food for a long rest you could likely find some way to resolve the fight without being at 100% anyway. Barrelmancy, shove them off a bridge, hit them with your shoe, etc.
While you aren't wrong. One thing you have to keep in account when designing or running a game. There is always someone dumber than you. What may seem obvious to you, may never occur to someone else. There are a lot of ways to alleviate the aforementioned limitations, but the first of which should be to provide sufficient alternatives. The last thing you want is a player to spend 3 hours struggling to beat a giant dragon and then realize that they didn't bring enough apples to get back safely when they finally achieve victory.
Frankly I’m mostly disappointed that the thread title is not “Food for Thought”
🤭
Originally Posted by Vorian
While you aren't wrong. One thing you have to keep in account when designing or running a game. There is always someone dumber than you. What may seem obvious to you, may never occur to someone else. There are a lot of ways to alleviate the aforementioned limitations, but the first of which should be to provide sufficient alternatives. The last thing you want is a player to spend 3 hours struggling to beat a giant dragon and then realize that they didn't bring enough apples to get back safely when they finally achieve victory.
As already pointed, their very "first demonstration" in the video/screenshots shows that there are now "cam supplies" for sale as a single item. I'm fairly confident they will be readily available from merchants anywhere in the game, aside that as some form of loot.
I doubt the risk of "soft locking" yourself could ever be an actual thing.

Not to mention that even in the worst case scenario you are still allowed what they called a "shallow rest".

If anything I'd worry that the system may still be WAY too forgiving to the point of being borderline vestigial.
I bet that the system will be of little importance, maybe not counting the psychological aspect.
The chance that your food will be limited in some way is virtually nil which means that you will most likely still be able to use the long rest every fight.
More problematic now, players will feel compelled to search each crate for food.
I think in the end, the only thing the system will add is an annoying minigame in management (as if the inventory is not a mess now).
There is always a chance that the larian will only place a strictly limited amount of supplies, but this is quite unlikely, especially since then it would make no sense to play characters based on long rest when you have unlimited short rest.

It would be nice if someone tested the system and tried to rest after each fight. Unfortunately, I most likely won't be able to do it myself (lack of time).
Just a thought.... but these requirements for long rest may affect what kind of classes folks have in the party. Don't need long rests as a thief, or warlock (the two classes I enjoy most in EA anyway) so can use potions and scrolls instead of clerics and mages. This saves me having to deal with Shadowheart (after I steal her box), and Gale (and his annoying need to eat magic items). And just run the party with two Thieves (make Astarian a caster thief), a Warlock, and a Fighter. Though optimally if I could, I would run a 3 thief party with one warlock (as bait) and skip the fighter altogether.
Originally Posted by Aazo
Just a thought.... but these requirements for long rest may affect what kind of classes folks have in the party. Don't need long rests as a thief, or warlock (the two classes I enjoy most in EA anyway) so can use potions and scrolls instead of clerics and mages. This saves me having to deal with Shadowheart (after I steal her box), and Gale (and his annoying need to eat magic items). And just run the party with two Thieves (make Astarian a caster thief), a Warlock, and a Fighter. Though optimally if I could, I would run a 3 thief party with one warlock (as bait) and skip the fighter altogether.

Conversely, the LACK of restrictions for long rests also affected what classes people will have in the party. What mechanical benefit is there to play a Warlock with their limited spell slots and spell selection when a Wizard gets a ton more spells to choose from and more slots to use?
So balance is needed.
Too easy to find food or too cheap to buy supplies and it’s a meaningless mechanic which means people will still long rest adnauseum. Too strict and yeah, watch everyone take elves and classes in order not to be impacted by it.

It anyway, let’s see how it feels after the patch drops.
Originally Posted by Riandor
So balance is needed.
Too easy to find food or too cheap to buy supplies and it’s a meaningless mechanic which means people will still long rest adnauseum. Too strict and yeah, watch everyone take elves and classes in order not to be impacted by it.

It anyway, let’s see how it feels after the patch drops.

Yop. The thing is...balance is really not that required in PVE. Not trolling here but neither BG2 or DOS2 were " balanced" in terms of late game mechanics or certain spells /technics you could use early ( not talking about obvious exploits etc ).

Personally I like my PVE games to at least pretend they are balancing anything so I can feel so smart by outplaying their " balancing" attempts. So this resting system thing they add here is a really nice touch smile

Ultimately if the game was 100% balanced in terms of AI and player possibility the player would loose each time he makes a mistake / take a lot of damage/ loose a character.
If that happens then the only possible meta is to avoid taking damage. By nuking each encounter to preserve those precious resting ressources.

It kinda creates a vicious circle.

We can go in the details once the new patch is actually out but for now I just want to highlight in terms of PVE you balance things out to diminish the power gap between classes/skills so using different combos /spells actually makes sense. Poor wyll is a good example here smile

@Aazo dSaying resting will delete the mage meta in D&D is an abomination please do not say that out loud ever again.
Originally Posted by Aazo
Just a thought.... but these requirements for long rest may affect what kind of classes folks have in the party. Don't need long rests as a thief, or warlock (the two classes I enjoy most in EA anyway) so can use potions and scrolls instead of clerics and mages. This saves me having to deal with Shadowheart (after I steal her box), and Gale (and his annoying need to eat magic items). And just run the party with two Thieves (make Astarian a caster thief), a Warlock, and a Fighter. Though optimally if I could, I would run a 3 thief party with one warlock (as bait) and skip the fighter altogether.
Classes in D&D are ALREADY balanced to have different degrees of maintenance/power outburst. Most of the "low maintenance classes" (like rogue, fighter, warlock, etc) that benefit just marginally from having to take long rests pay the price of that convenience by not being able to unleash the same amount of "mayhem" offered by classes like mages, who are all about their spell slots.

One of the problems many had with the unlimited long rests was precisely that it was an implicit buff for certain classes, making other less appealing in comparison.
Finally we'll have a reason to ignore Raphael's pompous speech in the House of Hope and fill our plates wink
Originally Posted by Malrith
Finally we'll have a reason to ignore Raphael's pompous speech in the House of Hope and fill our plates wink
That was always my default course of action, for the record.

"Yeah, yeah. Whatever. Tosser."
Originally Posted by Tuco
"Yeah, yeah. Whatever. Tosser."

Same!
Now it's going to be even more in-character for our starving party lol
Originally Posted by virion
Originally Posted by Riandor
So balance is needed.
Too easy to find food or too cheap to buy supplies and it’s a meaningless mechanic which means people will still long rest adnauseum. Too strict and yeah, watch everyone take elves and classes in order not to be impacted by it.

It anyway, let’s see how it feels after the patch drops.

Yop. The thing is...balance is really not that required in PVE. Not trolling here but neither BG2 or DOS2 were " balanced" in terms of late game mechanics or certain spells /technics you could use early ( not talking about obvious exploits etc ).

Personally I like my PVE games to at least pretend they are balancing anything so I can feel so smart by outplaying their " balancing" attempts. So this resting system thing they add here is a really nice touch smile

Ultimately if the game was 100% balanced in terms of AI and player possibility the player would loose each time he makes a mistake / take a lot of damage/ loose a character.
If that happens then the only possible meta is to avoid taking damage. By nuking each encounter to preserve those precious resting ressources.

It kinda creates a vicious circle.

We can go in the details once the new patch is actually out but for now I just want to highlight in terms of PVE you balance things out to diminish the power gap between classes/skills so using different combos /spells actually makes sense. Poor wyll is a good example here smile

@Aazo dSaying resting will delete the mage meta in D&D is an abomination please do not say that out loud ever again.

Yeah balance is perhaps not quite the right word, because you don't want a mechanic here that is so finely tuned that you're calculating the optimal path. More that there should be just enough hindrance so that instead of long resting after every encounter you are made to think a bit more about pushing the exploration with your current remaining spell slots etc... and I do think that is the aim here, to just make you re-think pressing that long rest button and that's all it needs to do right?
Originally Posted by Riandor
Yeah balance is perhaps not quite the right word, because you don't want a mechanic here that is so finely tuned that you're calculating the optimal path. More that there should be just enough hindrance so that instead of long resting after every encounter you are made to think a bit more about pushing the exploration with your current remaining spell slots etc... and I do think that is the aim here, to just make you re-think pressing that long rest button and that's all it needs to do right?

This, exactly. The food supplies don't have to be super-scarce, it only has to make people less willing to long rest after every fight.

I don't know how the "you get some spell slots back for a shallow rest" mechanic works, but I suspect that you won't be able to repeatedly shallow rest to be fully restored, it'll likely only restore you to a certain amount and if you are at that amount or higher, you don't gain anything.
Hopefully, they will include a toggle in the options to turn the requirements off. That way everyone can play as they like! rpg007
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by Riandor
Yeah balance is perhaps not quite the right word, because you don't want a mechanic here that is so finely tuned that you're calculating the optimal path. More that there should be just enough hindrance so that instead of long resting after every encounter you are made to think a bit more about pushing the exploration with your current remaining spell slots etc... and I do think that is the aim here, to just make you re-think pressing that long rest button and that's all it needs to do right?

This, exactly. The food supplies don't have to be super-scarce, it only has to make people less willing to long rest after every fight.

I don't know how the "you get some spell slots back for a shallow rest" mechanic works, but I suspect that you won't be able to repeatedly shallow rest to be fully restored, it'll likely only restore you to a certain amount and if you are at that amount or higher, you don't gain anything.

Thinking about it, I suspect that at least part of the purpose of a Shallow Rest will be to allow you to trigger camp events and things that require sleeping to do. I'm guessing that there may be an option to Shallow Rest even if we have enough resources for a full rest if we want to see camp scenes without wasting food.
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Hopefully, they will include a toggle in the options to turn the requirements off. That way everyone can play as they like! rpg007

Worse for worse if you like cheating your way into quick and dirty convenience, you will probably be able to use some trainer or mod.

As far as the core game is designed to be decent and have proper limitations in place, everything optional aside from that is fair game.
Originally Posted by Riandor
Originally Posted by virion
Originally Posted by Riandor
So balance is needed.
Too easy to find food or too cheap to buy supplies and it’s a meaningless mechanic which means people will still long rest adnauseum. Too strict and yeah, watch everyone take elves and classes in order not to be impacted by it.

It anyway, let’s see how it feels after the patch drops.

Yop. The thing is...balance is really not that required in PVE. Not trolling here but neither BG2 or DOS2 were " balanced" in terms of late game mechanics or certain spells /technics you could use early ( not talking about obvious exploits etc ).

Personally I like my PVE games to at least pretend they are balancing anything so I can feel so smart by outplaying their " balancing" attempts. So this resting system thing they add here is a really nice touch smile

Ultimately if the game was 100% balanced in terms of AI and player possibility the player would loose each time he makes a mistake / take a lot of damage/ loose a character.
If that happens then the only possible meta is to avoid taking damage. By nuking each encounter to preserve those precious resting ressources.

It kinda creates a vicious circle.

We can go in the details once the new patch is actually out but for now I just want to highlight in terms of PVE you balance things out to diminish the power gap between classes/skills so using different combos /spells actually makes sense. Poor wyll is a good example here smile

@Aazo dSaying resting will delete the mage meta in D&D is an abomination please do not say that out loud ever again.

Yeah balance is perhaps not quite the right word, because you don't want a mechanic here that is so finely tuned that you're calculating the optimal path. More that there should be just enough hindrance so that instead of long resting after every encounter you are made to think a bit more about pushing the exploration with your current remaining spell slots etc... and I do think that is the aim here, to just make you re-think pressing that long rest button and that's all it needs to do right?

Exactly. This. I don't think anyone would disagree on this one.
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Hopefully, they will include a toggle in the options to turn the requirements off. That way everyone can play as they like! rpg007
+1 ... but i doubt that.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Worse for worse if you like cheating your way into quick and dirty convenience, you will probably be able to use some trainer or mod.

As far as the core game is designed to be decent and have proper limitations in place, everything optional aside from that is fair game.
By hook or by crook! grin I would rather have it as an option in the game, though. I am also going to see if goodberries work!

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
+1 ... but i doubt that.
Why do you doubt it? Or do you mean just for this patch?
I don’t think this is something you set as an option, either it works and it’s a game mechanic, or it doesn’t ant they’ll remove it or change it before launch.

Given the penchant for missing though, I could see this being a prime candidate for changes and tweaks by the modders and assuming the mechanic works fine, I would be ok with that.

But let’s see how it plays out first…
Its quite simple really ...
Most companies tend to provide more or less ballanced experience in their games ... therefore its reasonable to expect larian to "ballance" the game around system they would use in the end ... no matter wich that would be ...

But if you try to include one that would give player aproximately 20(?) Long rests per Act ... and another that will give him unlimited Long rests ... im kinda affraid that the difference here is too big to include it to same system.
Therefore as Tuco said, i would bet my money for mod or trainer.
While personally I am all up for this particular addition (because it makes resting make at least a bit of sense from the balancing perspective, and no, I am not in the "singleplayer games should not bother with balance" camp, because what's even the point of adhering to a ruleset or devising mechanics, then), it's really interesting (and a bit tragic, frankly) seeing how Larian can't appease everyone no matter what they do. Either it's the hardcore 5e purists who are unhappy that everything isn't accurate to the letter (no adaptation, including the holier-than-thou Solasta, has ever been 100% precise) or the Biowarites complaining that the game becomes too complicated and has unnecessary micromanagement.

The most amusing thing is that this new system is incredibly simple and straightforward compared to, say, Kingmaker where you, ahem:
- picked what to cook so that you get meal bonuses, requiring you to keep an eye on rarer ingredients;
- assigned characters to hunting, guarding, cooking duties according to their skills;
- had to pick one of the companions' camping abilities that best suited the situation (AKA Tristian for healing, Jubilost for shorter camping time, and everyone else sucks in comparison, but it's there);
- there was a chance of a random encounter which would potentially involve some of your characters still sleeping or having to fight unarmored because you can't sleep in full plate, and they accounted for that;

And yet there are complaints that having to pick up random food (aren't most players compulsively looting everything as it is?) and pick what to eat is too much micromanagement. Larian might as well just not listen to feedback at this rate, honestly.
Hm i pretty much stopped playing Kingmaker because of that over complicated camping mechanism.
So hopefully this system will be more forgiving and easier to manage.
It might be ok if i need a little bit of food.. hoping the patch releases soon so i can see.
honestly there is just a small step between funny system and micromanagement hell in that regard.
Originally Posted by Mörtötö
Hm i pretty much stopped playing Kingmaker because of that over complicated camping mechanism.
So hopefully this system will be more forgiving and easier to manage.
What's "complicated" about it from an user standpoint?
"Find a spot large/plain enough to place a temporary camp, be sure to have some supplies in inventory". Done. Have a nice rest.
Not exactly rocket science, uh?

There's some more optional stuff if someone REALLY wants to "fine tune" it (who's standing as a guard, who's cooking, etc) but for the most part the default "auto-setup" does the job just fine and it doesn't need any additional player input.
Personally, I like the idea that they are putting into place, firstly because it makes the game more in line with the 5th edition design, resting requires you have enough food, like rations, to have the effects of a rest, and in 5th edition not having enough food to rest comes with penalties though. Still, I don't know if they plan to implement an exhaustion system in BG3. Other games like Pathfinder Kingmaker already used the idea of requiring food to rest, but characters could hunt for food in that game if they didn't have enough. I'm not sure if they will expand more on the way long rests work in future patches, but currently, I'm pretty happy with the announced changes and look forward to trying them out.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Mörtötö
Hm i pretty much stopped playing Kingmaker because of that over complicated camping mechanism.
So hopefully this system will be more forgiving and easier to manage.
What's "complicated" about it from an user standpoint?
"Find a spot large/plain enough to place a temporary camp, be sure to have some supplies in inventory". Done. Have a nice rest.
Not exactly rocket science, uh?

There's some more optional stuff if someone REALLY wants to "fine tune" it (who's standing as a guard, who's cooking, etc) but for the most part the default "auto-setup" does the job just fine and it doesn't need any additional player input.

You wouldn't think it's rocket science... but then again..... humanity. O_o
Well it's definitely complicated compared to "hitting R in a rest-able area - done". I like the way P:K handles it - about the right amount of complicatedness.
Originally Posted by Try2Handing
I like the way P:K handles it - about the right amount of complicatedness.
I second that. You have a cook, a person or two on watch, someone gathering supplies/hunting, someone using whatever talents they have to help out wherever they can... The chance for random encounters and such... Chances for success and failure all the way around... Just about exactly the right amount of complication.
Originally Posted by The_BlauerDragon
Originally Posted by Try2Handing
I like the way P:K handles it - about the right amount of complicatedness.
I second that. You have a cook, a person or two on watch, someone gathering supplies/hunting, someone using whatever talents they have to help out wherever they can... The chance for random encounters and such... Chances for success and failure all the way around... Just about exactly the right amount of complication.
Basically the only camping decision I make each rest (in other words, the only work I have to do besides hitting the 'R' button) is to choose the meal. Which is optional, and defaults to the last meal you cooked if left unchanged.

This decision involves tactical thinking which is nice. Do I expect to make a lot of skill checks today? Or go against enemies that will cause Fort STs? Or do I just want all my party members to go fast?
maybe in the future it will be possible to send Astarion to hunt? he still leaves at night to eat. x)
Originally Posted by Nyloth
maybe in the future it will be possible to send Astarion to hunt? he still leaves at night to eat. x)

If you take astarion you only need 30 rations instead of 40 since he literally sucks your blood when you sleep.
Originally Posted by virion
Originally Posted by Nyloth
maybe in the future it will be possible to send Astarion to hunt? he still leaves at night to eat. x)

If you take astarion you only need 30 rations instead of 40 since he literally sucks your blood when you sleep.

Good discount! But he still goes hunting animals every night, he could also bring meat...
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by virion
Originally Posted by Nyloth
maybe in the future it will be possible to send Astarion to hunt? he still leaves at night to eat. x)

If you take astarion you only need 30 rations instead of 40 since he literally sucks your blood when you sleep.

Good discount! But he still goes hunting animals every night, he could also bring meat...

If a vampire drains an animal of blood can you still eat the meat or is it ruined?

It seems unsanitary somehow.
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
If a vampire drains an animal of blood can you still eat the meat or is it ruined?

It seems unsanitary somehow.
I'm not sure about sanitary part, but it's not ruined for sure. Unless Astarion will bring a boar, It'll become kosher meat that way actually.
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
If a vampire drains an animal of blood can you still eat the meat or is it ruined?

It seems unsanitary somehow.
I'm not sure about sanitary part, but it's not ruined for sure. Unless Astarion will bring a boar, It'll become kosher meat that way actually.

Meanwhile, Patch 6 : Astarion's Impact on religious communities of XXI century
Originally Posted by Tuco
What's "complicated" about it from an user standpoint?
"Find a spot large/plain enough to place a temporary camp, be sure to have some supplies in inventory". Done. Have a nice rest.
Not exactly rocket science, uh?

There's some more optional stuff if someone REALLY wants to "fine tune" it (who's standing as a guard, who's cooking, etc) but for the most part the default "auto-setup" does the job just fine and it doesn't need any additional player input.

Well you have to collect food or in case of Pathfinder buy Rations so you can survive a excursion into a Dungeon because no Hunting in Dungeons. So food eats a lot of your space and gold.
And then if you have a live outisde of Computer Games you are coming back to an save game went into a dungeon just to find out you have to go back because not enough food and so on and so on.
Or the exploration of a Dungeon takes more time you cant get out for some reasons to get food and so you cant really rest but the enemies are hard so you have basically no chance anymore....

In my opinion, way more frustration than immersion.
But it depends how exactly Larian will implement it. Lets see.
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
In actual practicality, I don't think this long rest resource thing will really change things all that much. You can probably still just steal everything you need from merchants. Some people who are really bothered by it should be thankful that they didn't go for the Pathfinder WotR solution, which was to take out rations entirely and replace it with a 'corruption' mechanic that results in stat penalties and an assumed immediate game over for resting too much in non-safe zones without returning to the main hub area for that chapter (and in actual practice, you'd hit the first stat penalty point for resting 3+ times in a single dungeon, which is pretty lenient).

Uh, that WotR solution is great in my book. Actually penalties for cheesing the game and over resting to beat everything. Resting becomes TONS more important. This adds a layer of thought to the game, changes the way you play. You have to be more cautious, care for what spells are used, not use all your potions, be more alert etc etc...One simple RPG <<restriction>> change that which brings out more strategy to the game. Good job Owlcat. Really glad they are not bowing to the <<we want everything easy, automatic and on a gold platter>> crowd.
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Uh, that WotR solution is great in my book. Actually penalties for cheesing the game and over resting to beat everything. Resting becomes TONS more important. This adds a layer of thought to the game, changes the way you play. You have to be more cautious, care for what spells are used, not use all your potions, be more alert etc etc...One simple RPG <<restriction>> change that which brings out more strategy to the game. Good job Owlcat. Really glad they are not bowing to the <<we want everything easy, automatic and on a gold platter>> crowd.
+1
While playing I want to get the feeling that I'm really adventuring through a dangerous area, and thus have to think carefully about whether I want to risk pressing forward without resting. Being able to freely rest with ~negligible penalty makes adventuring less immersive and strategic for me.
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Uh, that WotR solution is great in my book. Actually penalties for cheesing the game and over resting to beat everything. Resting becomes TONS more important. This adds a layer of thought to the game, changes the way you play. You have to be more cautious, care for what spells are used, not use all your potions, be more alert etc etc...One simple RPG <<restriction>> change that which brings out more strategy to the game. Good job Owlcat. Really glad they are not bowing to the <<we want everything easy, automatic and on a gold platter>> crowd.

Yeah, it's actually a fairly good solution, and rather elegant given the setting as well since regular hunting and camping isn't going to be a thing where the game's taking place.

And again it's somewhat lenient, especially given how many spell slots and abilities you'll be getting in that game due to how mythic feats work. You need a party member with high Knowledge Religion checks, because if you don't, you can probably only rest twice before hitting the first stat corruption point as opposed to 3-4 times.
Well, I guess that any worry about having enough food looks silly now in retrospective.
I played a bit with the new patch yesterday and I noticed that I had yet to leave the druid grove (heading to the Blighted village and then goblin camp) and I found myself already carrying enough supplies for TEN full long rests.
Which is like, three times more than what I did during my entire past playthrough.

I don't think anyone is going to starve at any point in this game.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Well, I guess that any worry about having enough food looks silly now in retrospective.
I played a bit with the new patch yesterday and I noticed that I had yet to leave the druid grove (heading to the Blighted village and then goblin camp) and I found myself already carrying enough supplies for TEN full long rests.
Which is like, three times more than what I did during my entire past playthrough.

I don't think anyone is going to starve at any point in this game.
I guess it depends on how reliant you are on Long Rests for Spell Slot recupperation etc... A party of casters is more likely to want a few more Long Rests than a party mostly of fighters, Rangers, etc... I only got as far as the grove yesterday evening in Multiplayer, after following Sven's route through the door and out of the crypt. Picked up Lae'Zel, Gale & Astarion and then went to the Grove. So far, no long Rest required, but then the party composition was 1x Ranger, 1x Rogue, Lae'Zel and Shadowheart.
There are more supply packs available than there are fights currently so ultimately it doesn't change anything. I think supply packs shouldn't be sold from vendors, they should be rare drops only. I'm surviving only on food at the moment and the pacing has been fine, supply packs should be rare and for emergency use only.
Originally Posted by Saberem
There are more supply packs available than there are fights currently so ultimately it doesn't change anything. I think supply packs shouldn't be sold from vendors, they should be rare drops only. I'm surviving only on food at the moment and the pacing has been fine, supply packs should be rare and for emergency use only.

I dont agree, forcing players to search every smallest crate for food is a bad idea.
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Saberem
There are more supply packs available than there are fights currently so ultimately it doesn't change anything. I think supply packs shouldn't be sold from vendors, they should be rare drops only. I'm surviving only on food at the moment and the pacing has been fine, supply packs should be rare and for emergency use only.

I dont agree, forcing players to search every smallest crate for food is a bad idea.
I totally agree. although I am generally against this mechanic in the camp. very annoying.:(
Originally Posted by Saberem
There are more supply packs available than there are fights currently so ultimately it doesn't change anything. I think supply packs shouldn't be sold from vendors, they should be rare drops only. I'm surviving only on food at the moment and the pacing has been fine, supply packs should be rare and for emergency use only.
If anything the opposite. Supply packs should be almost exclusively but broadly available from most merchants, precisely because as a general principle the player should always have a "fallback" solution to get more if things go poorly.

Originally Posted by middle tab
I totally agree. although I am generally against this mechanic in the camp. very annoying.:(
And I'm completely against you and anyone who shares this complaint.
don't like the new mechanic at all. I've spent more time this patch micro managing my stupid food items, putting everything into little bags, trying to organize them, moving them to camp, etc than actually enjoying the game. The hardcore "no rest" players that are ALREADY not resting want to continue to not rest, have at it. No need to force everyone else to play like they do.

if you HAVE to keep this silly mechanic in the game then make all food the same and stack automatically. at least then i won't have dozens of kinds of food to organize.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Saberem
There are more supply packs available than there are fights currently so ultimately it doesn't change anything. I think supply packs shouldn't be sold from vendors, they should be rare drops only. I'm surviving only on food at the moment and the pacing has been fine, supply packs should be rare and for emergency use only.
If anything the opposite. Supply packs should be almost exclusively but broadly available from most merchants, precisely because as a general principle the player should always have a "fallback" solution to get more if things go poorly.
THIS.

Frankly finding packs in the wilderness doesn't thematically make sense, much better to buy them and for them to be relatively widely available, maybe just at different prices depending on location. Nothing wrong with having a bit of a money sinkhole, as one is often swamped with GP anyway.
I literally didn't feel the difference. The only difference is that now I don't have enough health potions. And I go with two clerics and a vampire who can heal himself a little! Nevertheless, I was able to kill the Hag. I have always collected food, I just like it, so there is no difference for me. Everything is done quite simply in the camp, I almost always choose "automatic", maybe it will be more difficult later, but it should be like this, shouldn't it?
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Saberem
There are more supply packs available than there are fights currently so ultimately it doesn't change anything. I think supply packs shouldn't be sold from vendors, they should be rare drops only. I'm surviving only on food at the moment and the pacing has been fine, supply packs should be rare and for emergency use only.
If anything the opposite. Supply packs should be almost exclusively but broadly available from most merchants, precisely because as a general principle the player should always have a "fallback" solution to get more if things go poorly.

Originally Posted by middle tab
I totally agree. although I am generally against this mechanic in the camp. very annoying.:(
And I'm completely against you and anyone who shares this complaint.

here is the confrontation between hardcore players and casual players. some want complexity and realism in the game. others dream of fun and immersion in history and characters. it is actually determined by the game's difficulty settings. and each of us gets his own. some test others pleasure.
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
don't like the new mechanic at all. I've spent more time this patch micro managing my stupid food items, putting everything into little bags, trying to organize them, moving them to camp, etc than actually enjoying the game. The hardcore "no rest" players that are ALREADY not resting want to continue to not rest, have at it. No need to force everyone else to play like they do.
There's actually a secondary discussion needed here and that is "enforcing" Long Rests on the party.

As annoying as you might find it, the reverse should not be true for my party. I don't use Long Rest currently because I don't need it, but that should not be right. Time, Important Cut-Scenes etc... are tied to this mechanic. Players being able to go all the way through to the end of Act 1 without resting should simply not be possible. Now it's quite possible that this has changed simply with food no longer healing you. Time will tell and it's definitely a step in the right direction. If I want to heal, I will need the Long Rest at some point.

But you have to find a balance between LR spam and over complexity (or fiddliness). If there is no fatigue (as there was in the original game), then we need something to make us rest, or you cannot tie it to the passage of time/story. You also should not simply be allowed to Long Rest ad nauseum without some form of cost or penalty or you have a Meta of characters with spell slots. We clamour for BG3 to be more like D&D and yet there is a clamour for not having resting restrictions? I mean no DM I know would allow you to Long Rest after every single encounter without rammifications.

What I will admit is that having not need to Long Rest as yet, I cannot have an opinion on how fidly or not it actuall is.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I literally didn't feel the difference. The only difference is that now I don't have enough health potions.
Right, I almost forgot to mention this aspect.
Regardless of the "rest management" (which, let's be real, is not really asking from the player to "manage" a whole lot, currently, given the overabundance of the resource and the how trivial it is to automatize the process) this new mechanic is already a massive improvement if nothing else because it played its part in removing the GIGANTIG BULLSHIT that was using the food as a viable replacement for health potions. Even during combat.
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
don't like the new mechanic at all. I've spent more time this patch micro managing my stupid food items, putting everything into little bags, trying to organize them, moving them to camp, etc than actually enjoying the game. The hardcore "no rest" players that are ALREADY not resting want to continue to not rest, have at it. No need to force everyone else to play like they do.

if you HAVE to keep this silly mechanic in the game then make all food the same and stack automatically. at least then i won't have dozens of kinds of food to organize.

Out of curiosity, why do you need to put effort into "micro manage" food items? You have them or you don't. Not criticizing your style, just genuine interest from a player who's never felt the need to give their food items a second thought (unless you're encumbered because of too many pig heads or such)
they take up weight and they take up visual space. If i choose to just ignore them and put them in my inventory, they'll fill up my entire inventory. So my option is to have food spam filling my inventory or start moving everything into bags, or sending everything to camp. Either way, i need to deal with them somehow. Unless there's some feature that allows food to automatically move to a camp food storage container without me having to do it manually?
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I literally didn't feel the difference. The only difference is that now I don't have enough health potions.
Right, I almost forgot to mention this aspect.
Regardless of the "rest management" (which, let's be real, is not really asking from the player to "manage" a whole lot, currently, given the overabundance of the resource and the how trivial it is to automatize the process) this new mechanic is already a massive improvement if nothing else because it played its part in removing the GIGANTIG BULLSHIT that was using the food as a viable replacement for health potions. Even during combat.
Yes. here I agree. I didn't like the fact that food heals.it was rather strange.
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Saberem
There are more supply packs available than there are fights currently so ultimately it doesn't change anything. I think supply packs shouldn't be sold from vendors, they should be rare drops only. I'm surviving only on food at the moment and the pacing has been fine, supply packs should be rare and for emergency use only.

I dont agree, forcing players to search every smallest crate for food is a bad idea.
+ 1

I also tried goodberries, and they are useless. They contribute only 1 each. The 4 you get per spell contribute less than 1 bagel does.

It would also be great if spells such as Speak with Animals did not cost a spell slot when used outside of combat.
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Unless there's some feature that allows food to automatically move to a camp food storage container without me having to do it manually?

Lots of people on reddit have asked for "sent to camp" food to be available when resting without needing to put it back in your inventory. Pushing that concept further, your idea of making the food be auto-delivered to camp when you pick it up is actually pretty good, I like it.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I literally didn't feel the difference. The only difference is that now I don't have enough health potions.
Right, I almost forgot to mention this aspect.
Regardless of the "rest management" (which, let's be real, is not really asking from the player to "manage" a whole lot, currently, given the overabundance of the resource and the how trivial it is to automatize the process) this new mechanic is already a massive improvement if nothing else because it played its part in removing the GIGANTIG BULLSHIT that was using the food as a viable replacement for health potions. Even during combat.

But I like to collect jars... I'm waiting for a special moment Q_Q
Originally Posted by agouzov
Lots of people on reddit have asked for "sent to camp" food to be available when resting without needing to put it back in your inventory. Pushing that concept further, your idea of making the food be auto-delivered to camp when you pick it up is actually pretty good, I like it.
Sounds great.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I literally didn't feel the difference. The only difference is that now I don't have enough health potions.
Right, I almost forgot to mention this aspect.
Regardless of the "rest management" (which, let's be real, is not really asking from the player to "manage" a whole lot, currently, given the overabundance of the resource and the how trivial it is to automatize the process) this new mechanic is already a massive improvement if nothing else because it played its part in removing the GIGANTIG BULLSHIT that was using the food as a viable replacement for health potions. Even during combat.

Exactly, and it puts both melee and casters on a more even footing in regards to needing to rest. They are sharing the same resource need which is now far more limited.

I was actually shocked that Larian didn't mention this in the actual PFH as its one of the more incredibly important changes they made.

This in addition to a number of other changes to throwing and barelmancy that they didn't even mention. F-ing huge!!
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Saberem
There are more supply packs available than there are fights currently so ultimately it doesn't change anything. I think supply packs shouldn't be sold from vendors, they should be rare drops only. I'm surviving only on food at the moment and the pacing has been fine, supply packs should be rare and for emergency use only.

I dont agree, forcing players to search every smallest crate for food is a bad idea.
+ 1

I also tried goodberries, and they are useless. They contribute only 1 each. The 4 you get per spell contribute less than 1 bagel does.

It would also be great if spells such as Speak with Animals did not cost a spell slot when used outside of combat.
Well if they want that to be closer to the spell in D^D PnP, then 1 per Berry isn't going to cut it. 1Hp Healing per Berry is the PnP rule, with the berry itself sustaining you for an entire day. That said there should definitely be a limit as goodberries can get a little out of hand if you can spawn 10 per short rest and you would only need 1 per day. Plus they are only supposed to last 24hrs which might be complex to handle.
I agree keep the mechanic optional, but have a toggle so those of us who do not want to worry about resource management do not have to do this. Please, this was the most disappointing thing about this patch that could so easily be fixed.
Originally Posted by JKirkInTexas
I agree keep the mechanic optional, but have a toggle so those of us who do not want to worry about resource management do not have to do this. Please, this was the most disappointing thing about this patch that could so easily be fixed.
I appreciate those who want to play solo and "play their way", but surely you can understand that the game should by default have a rest mechanism that ensures a degree of balance as per standard? If you want to "bend the rules", then that to me should be a mod. I mean I guess it's no skin off of my nose, but I would rather discuss ways to improve said mechanic, rather than taking it at face value and asking to make it optional.
I have not used this extensively yet, but so far I liked the mechanic in general. I thought it was kind of silly before that mid-battle I was able to eat an apple to restore health. This makes resting and the gathering of supplies more meaningful. The one thing I did not see a way to do (using a controller at least) was to use supplies from the chest in the camp. I am not sure if there is already a way to do this, but I would like to be able to use the "send to camp" feature to send my supplies to the chest in camp, then use those supplies for resting without having to walk to the chest and add them to my inventory only to remove them a second later. If this was an option I think the mechanic is decent.
The system is nonsensical as I predicted.
It just doesn't work.
At the moment, nothing is limited, you can rest the same as before, the only thing that has been added to the game is the unnecessary management of a lot of rubbish that would otherwise either be sold or even not picked up.
The need to constantly moving items is not pleasant.
If they want to save food, they should at least significantly reduce their weight or increase the carrying capacity of the character.
At this point, this mechanic, all it does is significantly worsens the fun of the game.
Originally Posted by Riandor
I appreciate those who want to play solo and "play their way", but surely you can understand that the game should by default have a rest mechanism that ensures a degree of balance as per standard? If you want to "bend the rules", then that to me should be a mod. I mean I guess it's no skin off of my nose, but I would rather discuss ways to improve said mechanic, rather than taking it at face value and asking to make it optional.
Nailed it.
People can cheat their way into favoring "immediate convenience above anything else" at the expense of core design as much as they want, as long as it's just a personal thing, but the discussion should be about making the systems in the game meaningful, not how to endorse broken exploits.
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
At the moment, nothing is limited, you can rest the same as before, the only thing that has been added to the game is the unnecessary management.
Can we stop parroting this crap as if it was a meaningful point of content?
There's hardly any "management" required from the player at the moment.
The system is as automated as it gets.

What's the issue, exactly? Having an anxiety attack at the mere thought of being required to have some supply at hand?
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Saberem
There are more supply packs available than there are fights currently so ultimately it doesn't change anything. I think supply packs shouldn't be sold from vendors, they should be rare drops only. I'm surviving only on food at the moment and the pacing has been fine, supply packs should be rare and for emergency use only.

I dont agree, forcing players to search every smallest crate for food is a bad idea.
+ 1

I also tried goodberries, and they are useless. They contribute only 1 each. The 4 you get per spell contribute less than 1 bagel does.

It would also be great if spells such as Speak with Animals did not cost a spell slot when used outside of combat.
That's a massive nerf to goodberries, they should account for 10. At the very minimum 4 (10 goodberries being 40).

Originally Posted by Nyloth
I literally didn't feel the difference. The only difference is that now I don't have enough health potions. And I go with two clerics and a vampire who can heal himself a little! Nevertheless, I was able to kill the Hag.
Maybe I'm just used to D&D from tabletop (having a feel for when it's appropriate to short rest), I have a glut of potions (5+ per party member).

Originally Posted by Nyloth
I have always collected food, I just like it, so there is no difference for me. Everything is done quite simply in the camp, I almost always choose "automatic", maybe it will be more difficult later, but it should be like this, shouldn't it?
Yes, it should be easy to accomplish.

For the most part in 5e food and supplies is something for the players to think about, not hold them back. So it should be the situations...
> I prepared and bought goods from a vendor, so we can long rest over the journey..
> the ranger caught some rabbit and the paladin went fishing, now we have food for two nights.

Granted it's a fair point that supply packs themselves might be too easy to find out-of-town in Baldur's Gate 3.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
At the moment, nothing is limited, you can rest the same as before, the only thing that has been added to the game is the unnecessary management.
Can we stop parroting this crap as if it was a meaningful point of content?
There's hardly any "management" required from the player at the moment.
The system is as automated as it gets.

What's the issue, exactly? Having an anxiety attack at the mere thought of being required to have some supply at hand?

It's a waste of inventory space. Capacity has been drastically lowered this patch.
A character with 10 strength can only lift 60kg without penalty, where a stupid fish weighs 0.5kg. Before, without collecting rubbish, I had to transfer items quite often between characters, now it's much worse.


It would be nice if you didn't offend people who disagree with you
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
It's a waste of inventory space. Capacity has been drastically lowered this patch.
A character with 10 strength can only lift 60kg without penalty, where a stupid fish weighs 0.5kg. Before, without collecting rubbish, I had to transfer items quite often between characters, now it's much worse.
The food was always there, it's not a new addition.
If anything this patch more than the previous ones makes incredibly easy to "send food to your camp" without a single worry, because the inability to use it as a source of healing makes it even more pointless to carry it around.
This just to stress once more than design decisions have a cascade effect that often goes beyond the intended scope.

Quote
It would be nice if you didn't offend people who disagree with you
I didn't "offend" anyone.
You are the one taking offense over criticism of a point you made.
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
At the moment, nothing is limited, you can rest the same as before, the only thing that has been added to the game is the unnecessary management.
Can we stop parroting this crap as if it was a meaningful point of content?
There's hardly any "management" required from the player at the moment.
The system is as automated as it gets.

What's the issue, exactly? Having an anxiety attack at the mere thought of being required to have some supply at hand?

It's a waste of inventory space. Capacity has been drastically lowered this patch.
A character with 10 strength can only lift 60kg without penalty, where a stupid fish weighs 0.5kg. Before, without collecting rubbish, I had to transfer items quite often between characters, now it's much worse.
You are aware there is a function called "Send to Camp," right? Where you point at an item, right-click it to get the function with that exact name to come up, and then click on it? And when you go to camp, that item will be in a chest conveniently placed not too far from the center of the campsite?

That sounds like the perfect thing to do for items that, and I know this may be shocking to you, you're only ever going to use in camp.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
It's a waste of inventory space. Capacity has been drastically lowered this patch.
A character with 10 strength can only lift 60kg without penalty, where a stupid fish weighs 0.5kg. Before, without collecting rubbish, I had to transfer items quite often between characters, now it's much worse.
The food was always there, it's not a new addition.
If anything this patch more than the previous ones makes incredibly easy to "send food to your camp" without a single worry, because the inability to use it as a source of healing makes it even more pointless to carry it around.
This just to stress once more than design decisions have a cascade effect that often goes beyond the intended scope.

Quote
It would be nice if you didn't offend people who disagree with you
I didn't "offend" anyone.
You are the one taking offense over criticism of a point you made.


What is the profit from this mechanic now? What is the game better at now?
Originally Posted by UltimaBACON
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
At the moment, nothing is limited, you can rest the same as before, the only thing that has been added to the game is the unnecessary management.
Can we stop parroting this crap as if it was a meaningful point of content?
There's hardly any "management" required from the player at the moment.
The system is as automated as it gets.

What's the issue, exactly? Having an anxiety attack at the mere thought of being required to have some supply at hand?

It's a waste of inventory space. Capacity has been drastically lowered this patch.
A character with 10 strength can only lift 60kg without penalty, where a stupid fish weighs 0.5kg. Before, without collecting rubbish, I had to transfer items quite often between characters, now it's much worse.
You are aware there is a function called "Send to Camp," right? Where you point at an item, right-click it to get the function with that exact name to come up, and then click on it? And when you go to camp, that item will be in a chest conveniently placed not too far from the center of the campsite?

That sounds like the perfect thing to do for items that, and I know this may be shocking to you, you're only ever going to use in camp.

First you have to bother with UI.
Secondly, you still need to carry items from the chest senselessly if you want to rest.
Third, it's a pointless mechanic.
If the food in the chest was automatically consumed while resting, one (maybe two) problems would be solved.
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
What is the profit from this mechanic now? What is the game better at now?

This is a nice starting point:
Originally Posted by Tuco
Right, I almost forgot to mention this aspect.
Regardless of the "rest management" (which, let's be real, is not really asking from the player to "manage" a whole lot, currently, given the overabundance of the resource and the how trivial it is to automatize the process) this new mechanic is already a massive improvement if nothing else because it played its part in removing the GIGANTIG BULLSHIT that was using the food as a viable replacement for health potions. Even during combat.

Now, if we could also address the OVER-ABUNDANCE of food with some re-tuning it wouldn't be half bad, since anything that can at least vaguely discourage (if not downright prevent) extensive rest spamming counts as a net mechanical improvement in my book.
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
The system is nonsensical as I predicted.
It just doesn't work.
At the moment, nothing is limited, you can rest the same as before, the only thing that has been added to the game is the unnecessary management of a lot of rubbish that would otherwise either be sold or even not picked up.
The need to constantly moving items is not pleasant.
If they want to save food, they should at least significantly reduce their weight or increase the carrying capacity of the character.
At this point, this mechanic, all it does is significantly worsens the fun of the game.

This is exactly what i came hear to say, so thank you Rhobar. If people want to super hard no rest mode then give it to them. Stop trying to ruin the game for people looking for story driven experience. Because personally i never understood what is wrong with the rest system before, being able to rest when want didn't magicly win the game for you.
Originally Posted by Macxd
This is exactly what i came hear to say, so thank you Rhobar. If people want to super hard no rest mode then give it to them. Stop trying to ruin the game for people looking for story driven experience. Because personally i never understood what is wrong with the rest system before, being able to rest when want didn't magicly win the game for you.

The fact that "you don't understand" (and to be honest I doubt you ever made a proper effort to try) doesn't mean that the problem didn't exist.

D&D as a system is entirely build around the idea of scarcity and resource management.
"Do I use the spell now or do I save it for bigger threats later?"
"Do I drink a costly potion or do I attempt to survive the fight without it and save it for another time?"
"Do I have enough food/time/security to afford a rest in this spot and recharge my resources?"
Etc, etc.

It's not even a marginal side note, it's a cornerstone of the entire system that several classes are balanced around. You have warlocks and martial classes giving up on the potential burst damage" because they can afford to be low maintenance as a counterpoint. Making unlimited long rest with no drawbacks trivial to achieve is an implicit nerf to their usefulness compared to classes that with enough resources can do virtually everything (like mages).

You are ranting against the "super-hardcore" but what you are actually asking for is for a game with no structure or mechanics in place just to serve your immediate convenience.
"Oh no, it's inconvenient to me that I can't get anything I want at any given time".
Well, guess what? Limitations, boundaries and inconveniences are precisely what define a game. You are supposed to use your tools to overcame these limitations, not to have a caterpillar paving a highway in front of you to make sure no pebble would ever "obstruct" your path.

It's all fine, anyway, I'm confident there will be a "Just the story" aka "braindead mode" for the people who will prefer it, when the time comes.
DOS and 2 had it, no reason to fear this one won't.
Originally Posted by Macxd
Stop trying to ruin the game for people looking for story driven experience.

I'm pretty sure the full release will have a Story Mode a la DOS 2 where your characters get incredible permanent buffs and your enemies get horrible nerfs and make resting completely unnecessary anyway.
I'll be honest, I quite enjoy the rest system. (Also I feel quite satisfied to learn that I was right when I guessed that you would be able to partial rest even with enough food for a full rest) I've just made it to the druid grove and have been poking around there for a bit and thus far, inventory management hasn't been a big deal. Though I agree that food should be useable for long rests from the camp stash, I'm sure that'll come along in a future patch. Plus I personally find it really satisfying in a weird way. I think I might actually like resting *more* now for some weird reason. Probably helps that I always religiously collected every piece of food anyway out of fear that I'd need it.

I also don't understand why people are calling this mechanic "hardcore" or talking about "no rest modes." I like it and I am very, very far from a hardcore gamer. I am very much here for story first and so far I don't feel like it's interfering with my enjoyment of the story at all. So from my perspective there's been a moderate net positive and I hope they keep iterating on this sytem until they reach something satisfying for everyone.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Macxd
This is exactly what i came hear to say, so thank you Rhobar. If people want to super hard no rest mode then give it to them. Stop trying to ruin the game for people looking for story driven experience. Because personally i never understood what is wrong with the rest system before, being able to rest when want didn't magicly win the game for you.

The fact that "you don't understand" (and to be honest I doubt you ever made a proper effort to try) doesn't mean that the problem didn't exist.

D&D as a system is entirely build around the idea of scarcity and resource management.
"Do I use the spell now or do I save it for bigger threats later?"
"Do I drink a costly potion or do I attempt to survive the fight without it and save it for another time?"
"Do I have enough food/time/security to afford a rest in this spot and recharge my resources?"
Etc, etc.

It's not even a marginal side note, it's a cornerstone of the entire system that several classes are balanced around. You have warlocks and martial classes giving up on the potential burst damage" because they can afford to be low maintenance as a counterpoint. Making unlimited long rest with no drawbacks trivial to achieve is an implicit nerf to their usefulness compared to classes that with enough resources can do virtually everything (like mages).

You are ranting against the "super-hardcore" but what you are actually asking for is for a game with no structure or mechanics in place just to serve your immediate convenience.
"Oh no, it's inconvenient to me that I can't get anything I want at any given time".
Well, guess what? Limitations, boundaries and inconveniences are precisely what define a game. You are supposed to use your tools to overcame these limitations, not to have a caterpillar paving a highway in front of you to make sure no pebble would ever "obstruct" your path.

It's all fine, anyway, I'm confident there will be a "Just the story" aka "braindead mode" for the people who will prefer it, when the time comes.
DOS and 2 had it, no reason to fear this one won't.

this is so unnecessarily passive-aggressive towards someone who doesn't want to play video games the way you think they should play them.
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
this is so unnecessarily passive-aggressive towards someone who doesn't want to play video games the way you think they should play them.
Ok.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I literally didn't feel the difference. The only difference is that now I don't have enough health potions. And I go with two clerics and a vampire who can heal himself a little! Nevertheless, I was able to kill the Hag. I have always collected food, I just like it, so there is no difference for me. Everything is done quite simply in the camp, I almost always choose "automatic", maybe it will be more difficult later, but it should be like this, shouldn't it?
The bolding is a reason I like this patch; I suspected that healing potions were not in enough supply, healing via food being a crutch to compensate. The question in my minds right now (and it's going to take time to work through) is "Were players simply not resting as much as they were expected/supposed to" (you could get through a LOT of the map before your first long rest with certain party compositions) or "There just isn't enough healing"? If it's a healing issue, that can now be tweaked because the problem is exposed.
As for the camping, imo so long as it's a difficulty related option and/or you can keep the supplies coming (either via buying or outright designating someone for hunting when you camp, like in Pathfinder: Kingmaker)than in terms of the supply system I'm pefectly fine with this patch, just need to see what else falls out of the tree now this has shaken it, as it were
It would be much better if you could dedicate specific companion that is suppose to get specific items by clicking on "autoloot" ... its anoying to send every single item separately. -_-

Gimme that, and i shall be perfectly OK with this system. :3
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
It would be much better if you could dedicate specific companion that is suppose to get specific items by clicking on "autoloot" ... its anoying to send every single item separately. -_-

Gimme that, and i shall be perfectly OK with this system. :3
Indeed. Being able to automatically send every type of X to camp (and in supplies case, be useable from the chest) would be great
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
this is so unnecessarily passive-aggressive towards someone who doesn't want to play video games the way you think they should play them.
To be honest it isn't about how anyone feels the game should be played vs how you think it should be played, it is about debating how we get to being closer to D&D /BG1&2 mechanics and feeling. BG1&2 added risk to resting, you felt you had to rest because of fatigue (on top of spell slots and HP), but do it in the wilderness and you ran the risk of an encounter. There was no easy mode (that I remember).

Again, the system of gathering food and consuming it to rest "might" be annoying to some and that's fine, I am not here to tell anyone what they enjoy or don't, but I will defend the principle of the game having tighter mechanics around resting so that the Meta for the game doesn't become 3x Mage and 1x Cleric for click and win. D&D is balanced around those who can travel further and fight longer vs those with insane power, but who need to rest. Take away that balance and what is the point?

Frankly on top of reducing food in the wilderness, I would even add fatigue back into the series, because whilst you're resting constantly, I'm not resting at all and missing all the cut scenes (now I know that I should rest to see them, but new players won't), but that's just me.

Regardless, the EA for me should represent the "Normal" level, include as many mechanics as possible for us to test and debate and IF you want an EASY mode going forward, that's fine, but that shouldn't be part of EA at this stage IMVHO.
There are small changes regarding the balance of the game, as Tuco said, now you need to use HP potions and clerics have become more valuable, since you can no longer heal with food. You can also no longer spam rest in the camp to restore spell slots or HP. Here are the main changes to this system. This system takes away this advantage from you, other things have not changed.

Almost nothing has changed for me, because the only reason why I "spammed" the camp its cutscenes. And that's why visually you can still "spam" the camp, because the cutscenes occur in the camp. This is something that I still don't like, because there are a lot of things that can be missed. I hope that Larian will find a solution to this.
Originally Posted by Riandor
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
this is so unnecessarily passive-aggressive towards someone who doesn't want to play video games the way you think they should play them.
To be honest it isn't about how anyone feels the game should be played vs how you think it should be played, it is about debating how we get to being closer to D&D /BG1&2 mechanics and feeling.
and thats not going to happen if people insist on calling other people "braindead" for having an opinion on some video game or other. It just doesn't help at all. Someone might make the best points in the world but if that's couched in being really insulting I don't think that helps anyone make a better game.
Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
Players who engage in exploration and combat only will still be able to progress in the game. But Players in their 3rd playthrough who just want to try a different party and roleplay a different character, to see how the story changes, or generally players who want to focus on roleplay and combat, will be forced to engage in the food search. If Larian keeps their over-abundant containers, it will be harder to memorise where the food items are (in the same way that people may remember where the essential magic items are, and bypass the trash container-searching on later playthroughs).

Don't know if this was already mentioned but you can purchase food from vendors, at least what I remember off the top of my head. Haven't sat down and continued passed the beach yet for this patch.
I honestly don't understand the resistance. I like the food mechanic. It gives all that food a purpose, makes Goodberry more valuable, limits long rest, and you can actually have fun with it if you let yourself.

First night, party had fish from the beach with rum. Wanted to eat it up before it spoiled. Nothing worse than spoiled fish smell. 😄

But seriously, put the food items in a pack, send it to camp, when you're ready to rest, take it out. Viola! No real hindrance. Maybe, at most, a slight annoyance.
I love the mechanic, it's my favorite addition with patch 5. The formula can be tweaked with, but the I love the immersion aspect of needing food, making healing abilities valuable again, and toning down the meta of casters rest spamming. I would like a supply chest at camp you can just store all your supplies in for weight and inventory management.

I wish there was another reason to go to camp, so I'd be more likely to see camp cutscenes and story elements. Anything I think of though, that would also include martial classes, like a fatigue meter, would be too much UI clutter and tedious. Maybe having to go to camp to level up could work?

I'll also be interested to see if Larian will buff good berries or add conjure food and water spell for the supply mechanic
Well, I've been playing for a little while now with Patch 5, & can honestly say that I like the direction that the long-rest system is taking, & I also do like the whole "mini-camp" thing, & would actually like to see it become the "default setting" for all long-rests (i.e. your long-rest setting will always match where you chose to take said long-rest).

My only recommendations for improvement-in relative order of importance-might be:

1) Have a minimum resource cut-off for taking *any* kind of long-rest (even partial)....though that might be good to tie in with the in-game difficulty settings. This would make the decision to take a long-rest even more strategic.

2) When outdoors, allow characters with appropriate skills (like hunting or herbalism) to increase your resources levels as part of the long-rest process. Likewise, allow characters with the appropriate skills to disguise your camp & stand watch prior to long-rest (see point (3) for an explanation.

3) I will probably get howled down for this, & I would understand if you rejected the suggestion, but I'd like a small chance for random encounters to interrupt a long-rest session (as an old-school D&D fan, I always loved the whole "Wandering Monsters" concept!)

4) I know this may be very difficult to implement at this point, but I would still love a full day/night cycle within the game, & thus have long and short rests move time forward within the game.

Anyway, those are my suggestions. Other than that I am loving my play-through with Patch 5. Its already playing out considerably different to my first 2 play-throughs.
Couldn't agree more, GM4Him. Late last year & into this year, one of the biggest complaints about BG3 was how exploitable the long-rest system was (me included). They've finally come up with a fix for it, & now people are complaining about it. Sure, I think it could do with a bit more tweaking and balancing, but the overall principle is definitely sound IMHO.
Originally Posted by MarcHicks
1) Have a minimum resource cut-off for taking *any* kind of long-rest (even partial)....though that might be good to tie in with the in-game difficulty settings. This would make the decision to take a long-rest even more strategic.

This is definitely a decent idea, but given the fact that companion interaction and a lot of story stuff is directly tied to being able to long rest, I would prefer they don't do that. If they change how they deal with story and companion scenes though, I don't think I'd mind at all.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I honestly don't understand the resistance. I like the food mechanic. It gives all that food a purpose, makes Goodberry more valuable, limits long rest, and you can actually have fun with it if you let yourself.

First night, party had fish from the beach with rum. Wanted to eat it up before it spoiled. Nothing worse than spoiled fish smell. 😄

But seriously, put the food items in a pack, send it to camp, when you're ready to rest, take it out. Viola! No real hindrance. Maybe, at most, a slight annoyance.

If you just send the food to camp then this entire change was useless as you would just vacuum up every food item and have it in your extradimensional camp space. You should need to carry all food items with you at all times (in a better organized inventory) so that there is a real tradeoff in how much food you carry with you and how often you rest when you are in a dungeon.
As far as I am aware, there are two main strands to opposition to this

1) people who do not want this sort of restriction in the game. They could make the point that neither Baldurs Gate 1 or 2 had resource requirements for resting, and they did have had random encounters, so removing free rests, while not having random encounters actually moves BG3 away from the BG1 and 2 model. I'm not particularly invested in leveraging that argument but I consider it to be true. Solasta actually has a difficulty option to turn off food requirements and I support that.

2) people who dislike the UI/UX of the inventory and find that additional features that require inventory management to be a negative because a rest system can be the best in the world but if it as a side effect requires more faffing around within a poorly designed system that is going to override their opinions on the rest system. I think it would be hard to find people who think the laggy inventory as it stands is good and I have a lot of sympathy with this section of people.

There is also those who are now annoyed that Goodberry does not trivialize the whole process. I think it is good that it does not as things stand. What is the point in playing with a restrictive rest process enabled if the whole thing can then be completely bypassed by a single level 1 spell? This was the problem in Solasta, all that work into rations and camping and all it did was make it "highly advisable" to take a green-mage or ranger. I can understand that people don't like this but from my point of view If I am going to play with a restrictive rest process i actually want it to be restrictive in the sense that it makes you think about your decisions and resource management, not restrictive in the sense that that it makes taking a druid compulsory in an already limited 4 person party (pure speculation based on Solasta experience).

I support putting this in if it can be done well, and if the inventory is fixed from the laggy mess it is at the moment, but I also support having it on by default for core-rules but toggleable in Kingmaker/Solasta style, whereby toggling it off bumps you onto "custom difficulty".

I an however concerned about the interaction between this and the camp-related story-beats. If camping is tied to story events and simultaneously you are discouraged from resting freely it will interfere with a core element of the game - the story itself; I worry that in order to get the story beats it might increese the need to meta-game events rather than them flowing naturally. I don't know what the solution to this is but it may cause issues if other things are not tweaked. It has been pointed out that perhaps a "fatigue" system a la BG1 and 2 would both "encourage" rests meaing story will not be missed while also being good - BG1 and 2 fatigue system is good imo.
Yeah. They need to untie story dialogues with long rests. Even if they tied them to both long and short, that'd be better than just long.

I get not making the player go to camp for every short rest, as that could get tedious. You get the idea. If they are taking a short rest, that means they stopped and took a breather. We don't need to play it out every time.

But, the idea is that they ARE supposed to be resting for about an hour. So why not have some dialogues available to simply trigger when short resting?

For example, I hit Short rest. Suddenly, an indicator pops up. Shadowheart has something to discuss. If she's in your party, exclamation appears over her head as well. Trigger dialogue right there. If not, you can port to camp to talk to her if you want. You talk to her, bam, dialogue complete. Leave camp and back to where you were.

Then short rests become more valuable too and you dont miss dialogues as much.
This is a really important change for me and I just want Larian to know that I absolutely love it. I'm really sorry to see that some people are so opposed to it. The core 5th edition rule set has a needs system built in and it makes no sense to ignore that. More importantly, I believe that food should NEVER heal in any D&D game. It would be better to leave it out entirely than to completely ignore the 5e rules and allow players to heal with food.

That said I can think of several scenarios for the new rest mechanisms future, only one of which I can not accept and would cause me to quit playing the game entirely.

1. They return to the first system where food heals. This system is pure trash and I won't be able to play. While this system was in place my total playtime stopped at 12 hours and I seriously doubted I would ever play the game again. This was a smack in the face to players like me who enjoy D&D survival mechanics, and just isn't how the game is played.

2. They remove resting resources and use as system similar to BG1 and BG2. Resting would restore the party without the need to manage inventory items. I could live with this but I genuinely prefer the current system. At least this way food would not restore health.

3. They leave the new system in place for all players and continue to modify and optimize it. This is fine with me because I like the new system, but I do think that it's a mistake to alienate players who hate it.

4. They provide a setting that allows players to toggle camping resources on or off. In my opinion, this is Larian's best option. If they allow players who hate it to choose the BG1/2 system, and players who love it to keep camping resource management, it is essentially a win win. I don't think that anyone, at any difficulty, should be allowed to use food to heal. It sets too dangerous a precedent and has no place in a D&D game.

Obviously, there are other consideration and caveats but I believe that these options provide a good summary of possible outcomes that others in this forum have been discussing. For me, the new system is awesome. I'm so very glad that the change was made, but I don't want others to hate the game as much I did when food could heal in combat. As long as they don't bring that back, this game will likely remain playable for me. That said, I'm all in favor of options for players who hate the current system, so long as that option isn't combat healing with food.
Originally Posted by bnmntj
This is a really important change for me and I just want Larian to know that I absolutely love it. I'm really sorry to see that some people are so opposed to it. The core 5th edition rule set has a needs system built in and it makes no sense to ignore that. More importantly, I believe that food should NEVER heal in any D&D game. It would be better to leave it out entirely than to completely ignore the 5e rules and allow players to heal with food.

That said I can think of several scenarios for the new rest mechanisms future, only one of which I can not accept and would cause me to quit playing the game entirely.

1. They return to the first system where food heals. This system is pure trash and I won't be able to play. While this system was in place my total playtime stopped at 12 hours and I seriously doubted I would ever play the game again. This was a smack in the face to players like me who enjoy D&D survival mechanics, and just isn't how the game is played.

2. They remove resting resources and use as system similar to BG1 and BG2. Resting would restore the party without the need to manage inventory items. I could live with this but I genuinely prefer the current system. At least this way food would not restore health.

3. They leave the new system in place for all players and continue to modify and optimize it. This is fine with me because I like the new system, but I do think that it's a mistake to alienate players who hate it.

4. They provide a setting that allows players to toggle camping resources on or off. In my opinion, this is Larian's best option. If they allow players who hate it to choose the BG1/2 system, and players who love it to keep camping resource management, it is essentially a win win. I don't think that anyone, at any difficulty, should be allowed to use food to heal. It sets too dangerous a precedent and has no place in a D&D game.

Obviously, there are other consideration and caveats but I believe that these options provide a good summary of possible outcomes that others in this forum have been discussing. For me, the new system is awesome. I'm so very glad that the change was made, but I don't want others to hate the game as much I did when food could heal in combat. As long as they don't bring that back, this game will likely remain playable for me. That said, I'm all in favor of options for players who hate the current system, so long as that option isn't combat healing with food.

5) Your option 4, but also make any food that was previously sent to camp available in the resting dialogue. It doesn't feel like this should be such a hard change.
If they improved inventory management, I think the new system would be just fine and players who gripe about it would stop. The issue isn't the new food mechanic system but inventory management being clunky.

Think about it. If you could click a button that says, Send All Camp Supplies to Camp and boom, you're done, then no hassel. So what's left to complain about.

They could even just have all such items auto-sent to camp. Basic restrictions could be if the characters are in certain hostile areas, food doesn't auto port to camp, but as soon as you exit it does. Whatever. The point is, they could and should tweak the new system in terms of better, easier item management, not get rid of the system.

I also think food should be needed for short rests too, thus making it strategic to decide how much food to keep on you versus camp, but again ONLY if item management was easier and I was able to multi-select items and send or withdraw from camp easily. But that's a very minor suggestion regardless.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I also think food should be needed for short rests too, thus making it strategic to decide how much food to keep on you versus camp, but again ONLY if item management was easier and I was able to multi-select items and send or withdraw from camp easily. But that's a very minor suggestion regardless.

I have to disagree with you on this one my man. Short rests are meant to just be quickly taking a breather in-universe, making them reliant on food wouldn't really line up right. Part of the point is that you don't need to spend anything and you can take them basically any time you want. I feel like having to worry about spending resources could disrupt things in a way that isn't really beneficial.
A Short Rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds.

It is implied that eating and drinking are involves to regain health. In the words of Nacho Libre, "It gives you nutrients, and some strength."

Going all day without food and drink wears a person down, especially if doing strenuous activity. It makes sense to require it, but again, ONLY if easy to manage. Micromanaging MORE inventory would not be fun in current state. Still, would make splitting camp supplies between personal inventory and camp more meaningful and strategic and immersive.
Having played around with the new camping, I hope it gets expanded upon and balanced better once crafting gets introduced. There's too much random food around that can be weirdly too powerful (like the supposedly "rotten" lettuce). Making such individual food items less effective on their own but be either convertable into camping sets (which provide a lot of camping points but no other benefits) or different meals (which provide fewer points but give some kind of a passive bonus until the next long rest, like + to specific ability checks/saves, or bonus movement - see Kingmaker's/PoE 2's implementation for something similar) via crafting will definitely make the system more interesting and involve more decision-making - like, if you know you're gonna fight illithids or something, better make that one meal that provides resistance to psychic damage or increases Wisdom saves.
Originally Posted by Brainer
Having played around with the new camping, I hope it gets expanded upon and balanced better once crafting gets introduced. There's too much random food around that can be weirdly too powerful (like the supposedly "rotten" lettuce). Making such individual food items less effective on their own but be either convertable into camping sets (which provide a lot of camping points but no other benefits) or different meals (which provide fewer points but give some kind of a passive bonus until the next long rest, like + to specific ability checks/saves, or bonus movement - see Kingmaker's/PoE 2's implementation for something similar) via crafting will definitely make the system more interesting and involve more decision-making - like, if you know you're gonna fight illithids or something, better make that one meal that provides resistance to psychic damage or increases Wisdom saves.

That's more of a Pathfinder mechanic and a controversial one. As far as I have seen its not RAW for 5E. I would personally prefer we NOT introduced "magic food" that acts like a cheap potion.


Pathfinder really hits the accelerator on player power levels so it makes more sense in that format. Saw a dude made a character with 108 AC in RoTR. Crazy.
Originally Posted by bnmntj
4. They provide a setting that allows players to toggle camping resources on or off. In my opinion, this is Larian's best option. If they allow players who hate it to choose the BG1/2 system, and players who love it to keep camping resource management, it is essentially a win win. I don't think that anyone, at any difficulty, should be allowed to use food to heal. It sets too dangerous a precedent and has no place in a D&D game.

I agree 100%.

I personally really enjoy the new system. Yes, it needs to be improved but it's not a bad concept.
As others have already mentioned, make it more like crafting: for example, maybe we could combine a specific amount/types of food into 1 pack supply unit with an unique name and icon (for example 'red meat camp supply' or something on that line) and each type could provide specific bonuses when consumed. Maybe red meat gives combat bonuses to strenght-based characters while fish gives bonuses to dexterity and so on.
In general, this system makes the game feel more real and immersive. I actually had a lot of fun searching barrells and boxes looking for food supplies until I felt I had enough.
I enjoy the new system. It eliminates me being able to eat an apple mid-combat to heal myself which was a bit silly. It still makes finding food in barrels/sacks meaningful because it is actually used for something. It makes sense that a living being would need to eat/drink when they camp to regain their health (also on page 186 of players handbook 2nd column 2nd paragraph, so yeah, it also seems pretty consistent with D&D to me). Best of all, the choose your food screen lets me quickly select a bunch of items and get them out of my inventory quickly. I seriously doubt Larian will find a system everyone likes, but in my opinion this one is way better than what was in the earlier patches. My only asks are:

1. You make an option to turn off having to have supplies to rest, so folks who don't want to have to deal with managing this can opt out.
2. Allow you to use supplies from the camp chest as well as from your inventory, so I can send stuff to camp instead of cluttering my inventory and still use it for resting.
3. Give me the ability with the Stadia controller to multi-select items in my inventory, so I can move them to my camp quicker.
During the stream (and in the patch notes), it was mentioned that the supply cost will go up as characters level up. It stays at 40 throughout the Chapter 1 and levels 1-4 though. Is it going to go up once we hit the big milestone levels (5, 11)?

It is also somewhat strange that the cost stays the same no matter how many characters are in the party. Perhaps it should be 40 per character rather than 40 for the whole party, and something like +20 at the aforementioned levels? I didn't exactly spam camps, and I am at well over 300 units of food (4 or so supply packs and all the random stuff picked up in the environment) in 6 hours of gameplay, which aren't gonna run out any time soon, so there doesn't seem to be much of a limitation there so far. But it's going in a right direction.
Originally Posted by Brainer
During the stream (and in the patch notes), it was mentioned that the supply cost will go up as characters level up. It stays at 40 throughout the Chapter 1 and levels 1-4 though. Is it going to go up once we hit the big milestone levels (5, 11)?

It is also somewhat strange that the cost stays the same no matter how many characters are in the party. Perhaps it should be 40 per character rather than 40 for the whole party, and something like +20 at the aforementioned levels? I didn't exactly spam camps, and I am at well over 300 units of food (4 or so supply packs and all the random stuff picked up in the environment) in 6 hours of gameplay, which aren't gonna run out any time soon, so there doesn't seem to be much of a limitation there so far. But it's going in a right direction.

Weirdly, increasing the cost based on how many people are at camp is something I like. It'd move us away from anything indicating a blanket wiping of companions because the more companions we have the greater cost of maintaining them, adding a balance where having too many on hand can be hard on resources.
After testing it in patch5 i have to say I like the new system. Healing food was really immersion-breaking for me previously. The new feature fits into the game as there is a lot of food variety in the game, and also the cost can be fine-tuned in future patches based on feedback (even maybe tied to difficulty options if there is the need for that). Its a little bit too permissive for me as is, i played approx. 30 hours and i never ran out of food but the feature itself as implemented felt natural and enjoyable.

Allowing to use supplies from the camp chest seems to be neccessary to have for this though. Some people mentioned cooking things from materials to gain temp special bonuses, that seems to be a nice idea as well.
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