Ok. While writing my fan fic I come up with more and more thoughts and ideas for this game to throw out here.

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=786102#Post786102

As I finally got to the part about Gut, Ragzlin and Minthara, I thought, "Gut's fine. To me, she's a minor boss in the EA. Also, she's the first one you meet. Good chance you'll fight her first. So, no need to beef her up."

Ragzlin, however, and Minthara, seem very much like Major bosses for EA.

Now, that said, I also realized that Kagha, Rath, Olodan and especially Halsin are also WAY underleveled.

This is my suggestion. Gut should be like a level 4 or 5 boss. Olodan should be like a level 8. Same with Kagha. Olodan might even be a 9. Rath should also be like Level 7, because he's just under Kagha.

Halsin is AN ARCHDRUID!!! Druids are archdruids at level 20. That said, I made him an archdruid at level 10 and said he was an archdruid in name only, not level. After all, the man gets captured and says you saved him from Minthara and Ragzlin. So there is no way he's THAT high level. Level 10 is tough, but it isn't druid god mode like level 20.

Now, THAT said, if Ragzlin and Minthara captured him, they should be level 10 as well. Thus, they should be WAY more powerful.

But how can you beat a Level 10 boss like Ragzlin and then another like Minthara? What about the fight against Kagha and Olodan?

Answer: Same way you can defeat Zalk the demon. With help. If Halsin joins you, both enemies are not as difficult. If Kagha joins you, Olodan is not as hard. If Kagha is against you, Rath can help, and Larian could put some other, more powerful druids in the fight.

If the baddies focus on tougher allies, you can assist them in killing the tougher baddies.

I'm just saying. Storywise, these characters don't make sense right now. They are just too weak.

this is the first 20% of the game If the first couple of bosses are level 8 what in god's name are we going to be fighting as the final boss?

edit: tone

lol. I don't know, but Halsin is an archdruid, so he should not be some level 4 weakling, and neither should Kagha, Rath, Olodan, Ragzlin or Minthara. Storywise, Halsin should at least be 10, which means he would be pretty dang powerful, which means no baby group of goblins could take him. He'd have to have been defeated by tougher villains like a level 10 hobgoblin and Drow.

A standard Mind Flayer has roughly 80 HP. A Level 10 Druid would have something close. So, if Ragzlin and Minthara were level 10 also, they'd be the equivalent of a typical, NOT boss, Mind Flayer. So, if the plan is for the player to face mind flayers late game, it wouldn't be bad to face level 10 villains in the first 20% of the game IF you have help.

Kagha and/or Rath help against Olodan, and if Kagha is against you maybe a few other more powerful druids join you to balance it out. Halsin helps you against Ragzlin and Minthara... separately ideally. If you don't rescue Halsin first, or you take the evil path, maybe you get help from somewhere else.

The point is, these characters should all be way tougher. Right now, it just doesn't make sense for Halsin, the great accomplished healer, to be less than Level 10, and it makes less sense that he's been captured by a bunch of goblins with lower than Level 5 bosses.

And if Halsin is at least level 10, Kagha should be at least 8. She's supposed to be his successor, taking his place. If Olodan is like her mentor, she should be like Level 9. Rath, being under Kagha, would then be Level 7.

Oh! And I'll add Zevlor in there too. Hellrider? Leader of the Tieflings? The guy almost died fighting a single sword spider during the final grove fight. Come on. If he's even close to Kagha in any way, he should be at least Level 5, maybe 6.

Also, when this game finally does roll out in full, the PCs will likely be Level 5 at least by the time they face Minthara and Ragzlin, unless they just run straight to the bosses. Therefore, 4 Level 5 or 6 PCs going against a Level 8 or 9 boss, with help, is not too difficult. Same is true for going against Ragzlin and Minthara of they were level 10. If you have a level 10 Halsin, 4 Level 5 or 6 PCs could do it. Even better odds with a party of 6.

Kinda like the idea of making fights a bit more challenging, it's true that some bosses feel a bit underwhelming and a bit one-shotable right now . However, I do believe this will be made a little better with difficulty options when they arrive at a later stage.

Not all of the boss fights are easy though: the Gith patrol, the spider, and Auntie Ethel are very satisfying imho. Not because they're particularly hard or higher level (definitely harder than the ones you mentioned), but because they involve more strategy (the spider spawns spiderlings, ethel creates duplicates, Gith just one shot you, but you can use terrain to mitigate). They force you to be more deliberate with your actions as opposed to just business as usual. So I think a lvl increase is not necessarily the only way to make fights more challenging .

Dror Ragzlin, Minthara, Guts, Olodan etc feel just "normal"-ish, nothing special, but maybe they're meant to be mini-bosses instead?

Just my two cents

I tend to agree, but they don't need to be leveled up much, except for Halsin.

Minthara is fine as 5-6 but she could have a bit more help. Like a stealthed Drow Assassin working for her and some more goblin minions. Minthara's biggest problem is players abusing high ground or shoving her into a pit i.e. Larian's own additions that let you cheese the whole fight. And give her a Drow Half Plate for higher AC and a cooler appearance instead of that tired stock Ring Mail.

Ragzlin is pretty tough too on the goblinoid scale, I think he's fine. Same problem as with Minthara again, easily cheesable.

Halsin needs to be 10+ to be at all credible as an archdruid of a large Druid Circle. There are ways to explain why he got captured (being alone against an entire fortress already being enough, and the Absolute also has higher level servants who he could have met). From a writing point of view, I would establish Halsin as a "very powerful" mentor kind of character for the PC's, and then he could suffer Gorion's fate rescuing the party against a superior enemy for maximum dramatic impact.

Kagha and Olodan should be around 7-8 imo to be believable as second in command. Those fights involve many NPCs so they can be balanced with numbers.

OK. Just did Tabletop fight using Drow Fighter Battlemaster at Level 5 with Astarion, Shadowheart, Wyll, Halsin and Lae'zel. All at Level 5 with Halsin at Level 10. Used standard Hobgoblin Warlord for Ragzlin and threw 12 thugs in the fight with him to help defend him. 3 Cult Fanatics, 4 goblins, 1 goblin boss, and 4 Cultists. The fight was fun, but Ragzlin was still taken down relatively easily.

Granted, the PCs did VERY well and had magic items that helped. In the end, Halsin was full health, completely untouched with 83 HP. Astarion, Lae'zel and Wyll were also untouched. However, Vexir the Battlemaster and Shadowheart were hit pretty hard. Vexir had been reduced from 45 HP to 8 in one round by Ragzlin. He got 3 attacks with Faithbreaker and hit her twice. Shadowheart actually fell and almost died with 2 Failures before Halsin healed her.

Besides this, Shadowheart got a lucky hit on Ragzlin, a Critical Hit, AFTER using the spell Spirit Shroud, which gave her an extra 1d8 (2d8 with a Critical) and she picked up a Psionic Mace (homebrew item) from the Githyanki Fight earlier. So altogether, with mace and Spirit Shroud, she dealt 3d6+2d8+1 damage, effectively taking off almost 30 HP in one hit. If she had not done that, things might have gone a bit less in the favor of the PCs.

Also, Ragzlin failed his save, so after she hit him, he couldn't heal for a whole round. Astarion then used Sneak Attack and finished Ragzlin off (he'd already been reduced by about 50 HP previous to that by Vexir and Halsin, so once Shadowheart slammed him with the Critical Hit, Astarion was able to finish him. Oh yeah! And Astarion also got a Critical Hit with Sneak Attack, so he did like 2d8+6d6+2 damage for the final blow. 2 lucky hits really made the difference. Otherwise, there might have been more PC deaths).

Oh... and Halsin actually didn't do that much. It was mostly the PCs. He burst in through the doors and hit some cultists to thin the numbers. He only did a little damage to Ragzlin.

I also did a test using Tabletop for the fight with Kagha, Rath, Olodan and so forth. Kagha was persuaded by the heroes to fight against Olodan. Olodan was using Level 9 stats. Kagha was at 8 and Rath at 7. I then put an entire party of 9 heroes against Olodan with Kagha and Rath plus 3 extra druids. Then I had Olodan and 2 of her shadow druids plus 11 other druids who joined their side, effectively pitting 14 versus 14. MAN! That was an awesome fight. Rath used Conjure Animals. Kagha and Olodan used Wall of Fire, druids were using Thunderwave all over the place on both sides. (The PCs at the time were only Level 4.) It was an epic fight, and the heroes defeated Olodan and the others in the end. It worked out very well.

I made a thread pretty much on the same topic few months ago: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=93583&Number=718792#Post718792

I started reading in that topic and found something I never noticed.
An early post pointed out that Halsin is probably level 18 and the current shown level is wrong.
Made me wonder how many other levels are jsut placeholders, because levels after 5 are not coded in.

This is the post:



I think the level indicator is misleading and probably not worth the hassle.
Not sure about seeing levels or not. On the one hand they are useful to help people see if a fight is actually winable, but on the other hands it is kinda gamey to know that.

OK. Check out my fan fic for how these battles played out with Tabletop using higher levels for all these characters. Just haven't gotten to the Minthara fight yet, but everything else is written up.

Chapter 16 - Nature's Fury is the fight between Kagha, Rath, Olodan, etc.

Chapter 19 - Battle of Wits is the fight against Priestess Gut

Chapter 20 - Absolute Betrayal is the fight against Ragzlin

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=786554&#Post786554

Speaking of levels, I remember clicking on the red dragon with the Gith in Patch 3 and seeing it show up as lvl 17. It's since been toned down.

I really don't give a fart about how high the lvls some NPC's have, who's purpose is mostly storytelling.
The level-up design is in the way of smooth storytelling anyways at some point.

No one of us wanted to know the levels of
° Legolas
° Aragorn
° Gimli
° Boromir
° Frodo and Sam
when we watched the Lord of the Rings, didn't we?


Halsin might enter combat at some point.
Minthara might enter combat at some point.
It would look very stupid if those two characters are strangely overpowered and make our whole group look obselete.
I give a damn if we encountered an "Archdruid" too early for classical D&D expectations.


The only OP dood I really know is OP and would probably have to lvl.80 or lvl.100 is Elminster and only with him I would care.
Everyone else - pfffff, " Serve the story or out of my fu°°ing way!! "

Ragzlin could have some goblin clerics spamming heals at him which would make him tougher to beat without giving him crazy burst damage potential that could down PCs in a single turn.

So hopefully they can look at mechanics like that rather than simply buff stats if fights are too easy. They'd first have to address the cheese options of stealth, high ground and shoving though.

Personally? As I argued at several points in that very same thread I'm completely AGAINST seeing enemy and character levels.
It doesn't do any favor for immersion and if it turns out to be misleading information (see the red dragon example) is even more harmful than anything.
I'm afraid it's just ANOTHER vestigial leftover from DOS 1 and 2, where you were basically led to "follow the breadcrumbs path" of enemy levels "to know you were in the right place for your level", which is strongly against the type of vibe a D&D adventure should give.

Some indicator for danger is useful though. For people who recognize monsters or worn equpment, sure it is unnecessary. But someone new or even not well versed? That person could easily mistake an encounter kill themselves. Which lessens their fun.
To this day I am annoyed by Tarnesh from BG1. You are *told* to go to the Friendly Arm Inn immedeatly and when you do that guy is waiting for you. A level 5 mage who can, depending on your class, kill you. He will cast Horror, Mirror Image and then 3 magic missiles targeted at the mc. When Charname dies, it is game over.
Sure you have an autosafe a short while ago, but it is still unfair and not fun.

It is useful to have direction and a vague idea of what expects you. Give the player surprises, maybe even nasty ones, but do not keep them completly blind.

The context (and a correct placement of enemies) is usually all the indication you need.
Like, if a specific character is supposed to be too much to handle, the game should make it clear and NOT put it against you mandatorily, obviously.


That's just a tough fight you have to prepare for, but there isn't really any specific "level requirement" to handle him. You can get there with your party at level 2 (because still being level 1 is a bit unlikely at that point) and deal with that fight just fine, if you know what to do.

Once again the context is usually all you need. In BG 1 and 2 you'd have to go out of your way to cross "impossible content" before you have enough levels to deal with. When you do, the game usually tries to warn you that you are out of your depth and you should back off.
(And in reality more often than not you still have a chance even then, if you know EXACTLY what to do and with some assistance from the RNG gods).

I am no game designer, so not sure what a good way for the indication is, but generally I think I can agree here.


How are you level two? The only enemies you fight on that route is (potentially) a wolf and a diseased gibberling. Even fighting the oger east of the map before FAI does not bring you two level two and that fight needs to be cheesed.
The way to win this fight is to either be able to tank his MM or ensure to disrupt his spell, which is easier said than done on level one (and even two). Regardless, preparation that depends on knowing that the fight will happen and how it could go is, imho, bad design. If we want to emulator P&P RPGs, then a blind no-reload run should be possible.

Well, BG1 likes to spring surprise encounters at you. BG2 was better in that regard, but you could actually stumble over rather hard battles. With not really that much of warning. I mean, I still like the games, but they are kinda unfair at certain points.

I think the main problem is actually just the low lever at the start. When you are somewhat tougher and have more skills, retreating is a more likely prospect.
I do not fully disagree with you about the immersionbreaking levels (they shouldn't have those anyways, NPCs only have CR in 5E!).
I think we mostly differ on how much it damages our immersion.

Look. I don't care whether they show you the levels or not, and I'm not one for making the enemies totally so overpowered that the player gets frustrated that they are so tough and the boss battle has to be replayed a thousand times just to beat it.

All I'm saying is, storywise, these characters are weak and don't make sense. When this game finally rolls out, I'll wager that, again, unless you rush right to the bosses, you're going to have a party of level 5 or 6 characters, and Halsin needs to be a LOT tougher than they make him out to be when you encounter him in the prison. If he is a LOT tougher, than Ragzlin and Minthara should, at the very least, be a lot tougher. Also, if Kagha is Halsin's replacement, she should not be some low level druid at like level 4. Same with Olodan and Rath. These characters should be much tougher than they currently are.

Now, I understand we're in EA, so as someone pointed out, they may simply have them at this low of a level because of the level 4 cap. When the final game rolls out, maybe they will have them all at higher levels.

But that's all I'm suggesting. I don't care about EA so much as long as when the game is finally rolled out it makes sense. Right now, I feel like the entire Emerald Grove is full of baby weaklings. It's not a serious Druid Grove. It's a baby wanna be Druid Grove and Halsin's weaker than my PCs instead of the Accomplished Healer everyone makes him out to be. I'm sorry, but if an archdruid was taken out by a bunch of goblins, there HAS to be a much better reason for it.

Shoot! I don't care if they give me a good reason like, "I allowed them to capture me so I might learn more about what was really going on with the Absolute." Don't have him tell me, "Thank goodness you arrived and saved me. Pshew! If it wasn't for you, I'd have been fed to a couple of worgs in the adjoining cell."

I mean, Halsin was being guarded by 3 goblin kids, a goblin brawler, a goblin beast tamer, I think 2 other goblins, and 2 worgs. An ARCHDRUID??? He couldn't get out of that? He needed my level 4 party to save him? Makes no sense at all.

So give me some valid reasoning. Halsin says to my character, "Well, thanks for the help, Friend, but I was actually here trying to gain more information about this cult. I could have escaped at any time, if I'd wanted to." Then I tell him about how Kagha was trying to take over the grove and such, and then he says, "Dang! Well, I'm glad you came when you did then. Forgive me for being a bit upset earlier for interfering with my plans. I thought I'd left the grove in good hands. I see I was wrong. Thank you for your help. I shall return as soon as I can to put things right."

I mean, do you guys realize how powerful an archdruid is supposed to be? Level 10 doesn't REALLY do it justice, but it's at least more believable. I'm just saying, Halsin alone should be able to wipe out the entire goblin camp and kill Ragzlin, Gut and Minthara at the levels they are at in the game. A few ice storms, conjure animals, engangle a few dozen of them, and those aren't even the most powerful spells he should have at his disposal.

So yeah, there needs to be at least some sort of explanation or something.

The problem is, no we do *not* know how powerful an Archdruid is supposed to be.

The last time anything was said about the relative strength of an Archdruid was back in 2nd Edition. And that said that every regional has three archdruids. And that they where chosen through a duel, meaning htey are the strongest of that circle. (Added via Edit)
I actually struggle to find much info about on how an archdruid is chosen. He could just be the wisest of them or a natural leader or something like that. There is actually not a single rule that demands a powerlevel in the 3rd, 4th or 5th edition, aside from the fact that the cornerstone feat of druids is called "Archdruid".

Bottom line, as long as Halsin is the strongest in the druid circle I fail to see a reason why he can't be an Archdruid.
On top of that, there are reasons why a powerful character may be helpless or even refuse to escape.

He could be contemplate the teaching of Eldath. He could worry that escaping would increase the number of Goblin attacks on the grove. He may see this as a chance to test the other druids to find a solution on their own.

He could also be drained by his duties. Since information about archdruids is rather sparse, he could need to meditate daily and expend a bunch of spellslots to heal a wound in the land.

He could also be level 18 and just get overpowered by a horde of goblins. A single character can get overrun. He could also be tired, because they don't give him enough too eat and drink and interrupt all forms of meditation, praying or rest to prevent him from regaining his spells and shapeshifting.

Bottom line: There is no indication that he should be able to crush the goblins and easily escape just because he hasthe rank of Archdruid.

Let's think about this, for a second. In previous games and stories, the archdruid is typically the strongest, wisest druid in the grove. In the original BG games, you are given the ability to have Jaheira challenge a druid to be head of the grove. You must face the archdruid, essentially, in combat with nothing but like a quarterstaff, and if you win, you become the head of the druid order there. So it makes sense that the archdruid would be the highest level character in the bunch.

The Emerald Grove has like maybe two dozen druids. Maybe more. I never actually counted them. You and your companions level up from 1 to 4 in just a few days. So let's say the grove is filled with druids varying from levels 1-4. If Rath is the most powerful over all these other, lesser druids, making him like 3rd in line, then he should probably be at least level 5. If Kagha is stronger than him, and so much so that he won't even try to challenge her, then she should probably be at least a level or two higher than him. After all, a level 5 character might challenge and beat a level 6 character. So Kagha should be maybe 6 or 7 or even 8 so that she is quite a bit above Rath. But let's say she's only at 6. Even still, Olodan should then be, at minimum, level 7 because Kagha is scared of her and acts like she is her great master and teacher. This would mean that Halsin should, for all intents and purposes, be at LEAST level 8 so that he could be more powerful than Olodan.

So how is that so far off from my original suggestion? It makes sense that Halsin is at least level 10, Olodan like 9, Kagha 8, Rath 7, etc.

AND, I might add, I find it interesting that WotC DID actually give us some idea of how powerful an Archdruid should be. At level 20, a Druid receives the Feature Archdruid. Thus, it is suggested that an Archdruid should actually be someone at level 20. I do not agree with this, because then every archdruid at every grove would be a godlike character. You'd never have an archdruid in any story because they'd be too overpowered. So I don't even know why they'd call the Feature this. But, regardless of this, I think it is completely unreasonable to think that Halsin would be anything lower than level 8, at bare minimum. Especially if he's supposed to be such an awesome healer, he should be at least 10, if not higher.

And finally, if you actually look into the stats of a powerful druid, I really struggle with an archdruid like Halsin being overwhelmed by goblins. I created him as a level 10 druid, just to see what he'd be like. The man's OP against a bunch of goblins. Even if you buff them, Halsin would wipe the floor with tons of goblins. Only IF the goblins were being assisted by, say, a powerful Hobgoblin Warlord or Drow Cleric would he be defeated. It makes no sense to me that he turned himself into a bear and got captured so easily when he could have blasted them with Ice Storms and Nature's Wrath, or he could have conjured hosts of animals to help fight them off or created Walls of Fire to aid in their escape. There are SO many things he could have done to fight them off and wipe the floor with them.

There are only three reasonable explanations, therefore. Either Halsin is a weakling of an archdruid, and the Emerald Grove is a piss-ant druid grove with nothing but weakling, baby druids (which means Larian GREATLY overexaggerates the importance of the grove), OR he let himself get captured so he could learn more about the Absolute, OR he was teamed up on by more powerful enemies than a horde of goblins (such as a more powerful Ragzlin and Minthara).

Either way, current strength of these characters just doesn't make sense from a story perspective.

I think you are mixing story, and system ... those are two different world, you cant take everything litteraly. :-/

Can you please list us all characters whos "strength" makes sence from a story perspective?

I mean ...
Gale should have ben lover of Goddess of Magic herself ...
Wyll should have ben great hero with dozens of sucessfull battles ...
Etc. etc. you get the idea.

I don't normally say this, but in this case you are 100% wrong. Story and mechanics HAVE to line up to some degree at least. Again, I play more than just D&D RPG. I've played Star Wars as well, many versions of it. I can only imagine what it would be like for me to throw my PCs against Darth Vader and have them kill him. Oh wait! That happened. The players were freaking out. "How can we kill Darth Vader? We aren't even that tough. I got a lucky hit and Vader is dead."

If you create a villain and act like they are super tough, and then you make them mechanically able to be beaten in a single hit, or maybe 2 or 3, it is a HUGE letdown. Players will feel like, "What the crap was that?" People don't want villains who are blown way out of proportion only have them be killed in a hit or two.

You CANNOT divorce story from RPG, ANY aspect of RPG. The whole POINT of RPG is to build your own story together with the DM and other players. You are BUILDING A STORY. If you divorce mechanics from story, there is a HUGE discrepancy in the game.

Right now, Halsin is a baby weak fart that 1 of my level 4 characters could kill. I don't need all 4. I just need 1. THAT is not an archdruid. THAT is a baby druid who can't wipe his own butt. In fact, the first time I ever reached Halsin in previous playthroughs, I was frustrated to no end because I couldn't keep him alive. He'd take a few hits and die. I was like, "What the heck! This is NOT some accomplished healer who can lead a grove of druids, and Kagha was so easily beaten IN PATCH 5, and so was Olodan. I wiped the FLOOR with them. Every playthrough, I've wiped the floor with them. If I work my way to level 5 before I face them, I'm going to wipe the floor with them even more.

Why? Because the story has BEEN divorced from the mechanics of the game. "Kagha is some big, tough druid. Better not challenge her." Level 3 character kills her in 3 or 4 hits. Hmmm. Something's wrong with that. "Olodan is even tougher! Look how Kagha fears her." Level 3 character kills her in 2 rounds. NOT tough at all. Why did they say she was? Ragzlin is a hobgoblin boss of the goblin horde. Beat him in 3 rounds. Hmmm... doesn't seem tough to me. Minthara DIDN'T DO A GOD BLESSED THING TO MY CHARACTERS during the Grove battle. I literally beat the living tar out of her. NOT what I'd call an ominous, tough bad guy.

As for the Origin Characters, they had better explain why they are now Level 1 noobs because if they don't, that's a HUGE discrepancy to me and will ruin the entire game for me. I'm thinking they are explaining this because the tadpole has reset their abilities and started them over. Therefore, they went from super tough awesome Level 15+ characters to Level 1 noobs. Wyll says he could summon fire and such. Gale was Mystra's lover. Shadowheart seems to have been a powerful cleric of Shar/Selune. Lae'zel sounds like she used to be a powerful, possibly Kith'rak potential warrior. Astarion lived for 200 years as a vampire spawn, so he should be some super tough rogue. The tadpole SEEMS to have reset everyone's talents and skills. If that's not the case, or there isn't some actual, logical explanation, then that's just plain stupid. Don't tell me these super awesome, tough characters are only Level 1 at the start of the game and give me no reason for it.

I'm telling you now, this game will drop from my all-time favorite game in the history of forever to absolute worst game of all time if they divorce mechanics from story and don't explain rational, logical elements like this. I'm just saying, it's utterly idiotic. Again, it's like making Anakin Skywalker a Level 1 Jedi Padawan. You can't do that. If you bring Anakin Skywalker into a story, you'd better at least make him a Jedi Knight and give him some nice stats.

Any druid can challenge Faldorn in BG2. You also become the Great Druid at the end of the stronghold quest - way beyond an Archdruid.

And they could have just thrown Goblin after Goblin at him until his Spell Slots are gone. If he even was at full strength when the fight happened.
It could also be done by a surprise sneak attack, pulver or gas trap to knock him out. The biggest trouble is his shapeshifting and not his spells. But I assume you can actually deal with a lot of enemies he could transform.

Also, I never got the feeling that this was an overly important grove. I might have missed something, but where is that implied?
I just saw it as a small grove that has become a refuge because of its location and defensibility.



In fact, your post reminded me of a problem with druids:
Many of their spells influence nature, so it is completly resonable that he did not use them, since he thought the harm to nature is greater than the benefit. Druids are not nature themed mages, they are wardens of nature given power over it. That allows them to really harm nature.
Though he would be justified if he knew that they are all tadpole infected. Aberration invasion is big enough of a threat to pull out everything.

okay, let's take your suggestion then. All the badass characters are high level now. Let's say they're all level 10. Our party is level 3. What exactly are we going to be fighting until we get to level 10 to challenge the first couple of bosses in the game? Is Larian going to just say "fuck it, all the bosses we currently have in game are now high level and the party just can't fight them now" What? this is act ONE. Or do we just always happen to have another badass temporary ally that helps us out?

Well, but I do.

I also happen to agree with this. But they aren't mutually exclusive problems, and in several ways fairly complementary.


These are indeed also a problem of mismatch between narrative and mechanics (ludo-narrative dissonance, as the stuck-ups know-it-all in gaming journalism love to call it) so not sure what point you think you are making.

"Oh well, it's all senseless shit anyway, so who cares!" isn't really the strongest argument.

BG2 also starts at level 7 minimum and ends up in the 20s (up to level 40 with Throne of Bhaal).
Level 12 is precisely the middle ground where AD&D/2nd Edition used to put the minimum threshold to even qualify as an Archdruid candidate.

I just added that part for completness sake.
Didn't druid leveling end with level 11 or so? Every other "level" would have to be gained by defeating one of the few people to have the special rank?
If I recall correctly, that was pretty high level for 2nd edition. ToB was rather gamey when it came to levels. But I think that is always a problem with epic campaigns. Throwing them into hell for the epic portion of the NWN campaign was a pretty good solution actually.

I don't get this! What do you think we'll be fighting late game? Mind Flayers. Single-handedly, just your party. The game is setting up for that. A LOW level mind flayer is CR 7. Top level is CR 8. Elder Brain is CR 14. So what do I expect late game? They're likely going to throw CR 7 enemies at you in number, so maybe 4 CR 7 Mind Flayers at one time plus minions. There is a HUGE way to go for what they can throw at you. Even if level cap is 10, it's not inconceivable that you could potentially handle Mind Flayers depending on your gear, choices in level ups, etc. What do YOU think they're going to throw at us? They've already thrown Intellect Devourers at 2 level 2 characters. I'll guarantee they're going to continue to throw stuff at us that is WAY higher level.

But regardless, I'm suggesting they use Hobgoblin Warlord stats for Ragzlin. That's CR 6. That's not a HUGE issue for a boss bad buy if your characters can reach level 5 by that point. Sure, you could also be at level 3, but that's again, only if you rush right to him and try to face him without first doing any grinding and exploring and leveling up. If you want to face a CR 6 Hobgoblin Warlord before you properly level up, that's on you. That's like rushing to the Gith and fighting 4 Gith at level 2 or 3. You SHOULD expect to get your butt handed to you.

But I cap at Level 4 even before I face the Gith. I actually could probably get to level 5 easy before fighting the Gith and Gnoll fights, depending on where I go and what I do, etc. So it is, again, not a huge ask to make one of the two major bosses of EA a CR 6 enemy.

So all I'm suggesting is that Ragzlin be set at the standards of a Hobgoblin Warlord. If Halsin is beefed up as well, and you get him to join your party for the fight, you'll have an easier time at it. If not, if you're at level 5, which I guarantee you would be if you do all the side quests by that point, you could still face a CR 6 Hobgoblin Warlord and his weak cronies.

As for Minthara, I would consider her close to the Drow Elite Warrior stats, something between Elite Warrior and Drow Mage, or at least she should be. That's a CR 5 to CR 7. Ragzlin, at one point, even says that "if the Absolute tells us to take orders from a Drow, then that's what we do." This implies that SHE'S the actual BIG BOSS of the entire EA. That being the case, she should probably be closer to the CR 7 challenge rating, meaning she SHOULD be more like the Drow Elite Warrior with additional cleric spellcasting.

It's doable. It's not impossible. How do I know? I TESTED IT. With Tabletop, I sent 4 level 5 characters plus Halsin against a Hobgoblin Warlord with Faithbreaker, and the PCs won with only 2 characters feeling the pain. Ragzlin had 12 minions with him. It wasn't an impossible fight. It wasn't even close to an impossible fight. It was actually quite a good fight, and it displayed Ragzlin's superior strength and power without totally overwhelming the players. It showed them to respect the boss. He wasn't just some peon they could walz in and kill like he was no big deal.

I also tested it out, again with Tabletop, with Olodan at level 9, Kagha at 8, Rath at 7. The druid fight was awesome! Walls of Fire! Conjured Animals! Thuderwave all over the place. The heroes suffered some hits, but the DM can, again, balance the encounter with NPC allies. Doing so is what makes D&D such a fun game. You can have these epic encounters with epic villains, and your party doesn't have to be gods and single-handedly wiping out the big bosses alone. They can use strats and get help from allies and make a sizeable difference. If villains are easy to beat weaklings, it doesn't feel like you've really overcome much.

In late game, you would expect more of that, but you don't NEED to during lower levels. Make the characters mechanically make sense, and balance the game around it. It's really not that hard.

No, you didn't. You did a home brewed fanfiction with your own numbers. This is a VIDEO GAME. Larian is making this, not YOU. They've already committed to a huge number of things that you're just hand waving away with a "it can work!". It CAN'T work. that train has left the station so far long ago you might as well be looking for the next train.

You do understand that video-game or table-top numbers are still numbers? The video-game has it's restrictions for sure, but you can apply them in table-top.
PS: And who's being aggressive now?

I do understand. I also understand that he's changing numbers to suit his own role playing ideas, which is FINE, but in a video game where Larian is in control and which a LOT of work has already been done, you can't just wave away entire sections of the game because "it worked" in a home brewed roleplaying situation. Also, i don't know what you're talking about "who's being aggressive now?" bit. have we argued before or something?

+1

By your logic we all should stop providing any feedback, because the game is already done (no, it isn't). And you're overestimating the amount of work they would need to do to raise some numbers for some bosses.
You lashed out at me recently for being aggresive when I simply asked him to stop posting fanfiction in suggestions and feedback. Now you're lashing at him because you think that numbers from his fanfiction is somehow inferior compared to the video-game.
- At least for me this looks too rejecting if not aggressive towards others feedback. Just some food for thoughts.

I have no plans to make judge for you two ...
But it occurs to me that here Boblawblah is trying to suggest that it is not possible to delete the entire section of the story and completely redo it from scratch ... rather than to suggest that no change is possible anymore.

That would be more of an "ad absurdum" interpretation. o_O

edit: seriously though, i do apologize for coming across more aggressive than I intended. now that i reread my post i can very much see why it was taken aggressively. I have nothing against you GM4HIM and you as well. i apologize for being a dick.

You both are really thinking about changing numbers for bosses as "delete the entire section of the story and completely redo it from scratch"? Are you kidding?
Accepted at least by me.

if it were simply changing numbers, i would agree with you, but it's scaling up very early game bosses to a fairly high level. What happens is the next boss HAS to be even more scaled, and so on and so on. It affects the entire game drastically. Kagha is a relatively minor boss in this game. Even in the little we have of the game, she's not considered to be a scary villain type (at least by me). Minthara as well. The hag is a bit more for sure and the gith patrol oddly are the most threatening of everyone (which needs to change imo).

What happens when we bump them up is the next boss is either a similar level or more powerful. With the story Larian seems to be telling, it would seem that they're going to be having more and more powerful challenges as we go through the game, as is normal. So the bosses can't stay the same level, Kagha CANNOT be on the same level as the next boss without them seeming weak. So how would GM4HIM's plan work? Should an arch druid be more powerful than a bandit leader that we meet in act III?

I would presume they could keep on scaling the bosses more and more. Giving them more minions till level 20. And knowing Larian they are quite inventive when it comes to desining a boss-fight that will make you sweat even if you all high-lvl in legendary equipment.

Of course, if it's a TERRIBLE argument you have to like it.

I'm sorry but "No, this is not D&D, this is a Larian game and they'll do whatever they want" IS a terrible argument.
The design goal should be precisely to have battle scenarios that are fully (or at very least for the most part) reproducible on a board.

I really don't buy this tentatively authorial crap of "Let them do what they want and not be shackled by the rules".

More like i didnt get the impression that desired change around here is just to "adjust numbers" ...


Its just the same shit as it was with invincible NPCs ...
As it was with weak PCs ...
Or as it was with stat-cap ...

Does it make sence, that human who trains (Str 20) is as Strong as Half-Orc (Str 20) ? ... Yes! It does.
Does it make sence, that the very same Half-Orc who trains as often and as hard as the very same Human is just as Strong (Str 20)? Definietly not ... but that is just how this rules works.

Our characters may be "level 1" bcs "game engine says so" ...
But that dont mean they are unexperienced idiots, who will cut their own heads off, bcs *now* its the first time in their life, when they wield a weapon. :-/

Simmilar to GM4Him's examples ...
If you read those posts, you can quite early figure out that once he start adding levels, to one ... he had to add levels to almost everyone around, bcs otherwise it would again "not make sence" ...
It dont matter to me, it everyone have "10" written next to name, and are aproximately same strength as my character ... or if they all have "4" written next to their name, and are aproximately same strength as my character ...
The world make sence as it is, all you need to do is hide the level button and dont watch it ... then you realize the number dont really matter, bcs once you have on one hand "arch druid" and on one hand "ex-archwizard who was so talented so he charmer even goddes of magic herself" ...

I dunno how it explain better. :-/
Did you know that the average iq is always 100?
This means that the values are shifted so that 100 is always exactly (as far as possible) in the middle ...
Likewise, if we follow the situation here in such a way that all characters should have level 10 ... we will only achieve that we have moved the center.

And I thought you had enough playthroughs by now to recognise the optional outcomes we already have.

Enough to know, how many times you would be screwed.

Let's get one thing straight. I played the Tabletop game by the rules. Rolled legit rolls. Used proper stats. You know, what this game is SUPPOSED to be based on.

So after reading the responses more thoroughly, you've once again missed the point.

Let's just take one boss. Ragzlin. Should he be tougher than the Hag? Yes! Why? HE'S ONE OF THE STORYLINE FINAL BOSSES. So when I face Ragzlin, I should be facing a beefy boss guy. It should be a difficult fight for your characters.

Right now, we're capped at 4, but later we won't and we'll be at level 5. Hobgoblin Warlord is a CR 6. So, a party of 4 level 6 characters could relatively beat him without much loss. Therefore, using D&D DM game campaign design, if I want a boss fight for 4 level 5 characters to be challenging, I would pick a boss at a CR slightly higher than my characters average level. Thus, a Hobgoblin Warlord works VERY well for a boss fight for 4 Level 4 or 5 characters.

And as for Kagha/Olodan, YOU ALREADY GET HELP DURING THE FIGHT. So the ONLY thing Im suggesting is that Larian beef their stats and make them appropriate and then balance the fight from there. If they have to add a few more characters on either side to balance, then what's the big deal?

Why does he have to be strogner than the hag? Putting aside that he is, at best, a mid-boss and not a final boss, optional battles can be tougher than him. According to your logic, Aran Linvail in BG2 needs to be tougher than Firkraag. A Master Thief more powerful, in personal battle, than an ancient dragon. Whic he is not. The main problem in fighting him comes from the fact that you need to get through the guild and not his personal prowess.

Also, I assume most players do not everything in a playthrough, so it is possible they are lower than level 5. I have no data on the average completion rate of game chapters, so not sure what level is average.

Lol. You just shot your argument in the foot, actually. Thanks for bringing up Firkraag. You are right in that bosses ought to be appropriate based on who they are in the story. Not necessarily based on whether they are end bosses, etc.

That is true to a certain degree, but you've made my point perfectly. Imagine facing Firkraag and he was nerfed and not a legit dragon. Instead, they made him a dragon wyrmling or a young dragon. THAT is what they've done with Ragzlin.

And Ragzlin ISN'T like Firkraag. He IS a final boss of EA. So from a video game perspective, there is another reason he should be stronger. It's poor video game design when you fight a more challenging enemy during a side quest than the final boss UNLESS you get some really good rewards for a side quest enemy that helps you face the final boss.

So, it's fine, for example, if the Gith fight is harder if by killing the Gith you get cool stuff that helps you take Ragzlin and Minthara down.

The whole point is the characters are not appropriate for the story. My characters should not even be able to kill Halsin unless they make him very low health, etc.

This I disagree with. A hobgoblin boss has no business being more powerful than an ancient hag with magic powers. Ragzlin can have an infinite amount of goblin/hobgoblin/bugbear/ogre minions to make it a tough fight. I would just make him stronger than an ogre to legitimize his status over his strongest minions. The hag is also optional for the story while Ragzlin is not.

Generally I would keep the scale of any given "tribe" as tight as possible. If all the other hobgoblins are comparable to a level 1 Fighter, it makes no sense the leader of the pack would be level 8 or something crazy high compared to the others. Something like..

Hobgoblin soldier - lvl 1
Hobgoblin sergeant - lvl 2
Hobgoblin lieutenant - lvl 3
Hobgoblin chieftain - lvl 5-6

A hobgoblin king or such legendary individual could be level 8-10, strong enough to take on a hill giant.

Sigh. Ok. Let's put it in a different way. Right now, Ragzlin is closest to a Hobgoblin Devastator at CR 4 with a nice warhammer. Not a terrible choice, but not exactly that much of a big deal as a boss. All I'm suggesting is that they make him more like a CR 6 Hobgoblin Warlord which fits his character more than a Devastator. The Warlord has Leadership, Parry, Three Attacks and most importantly Martial advantage where once per turn he can increase his damage by an extra whopping 4d6 IF his target is within 5 feet of an ally of the hobgoblin. So, ranged attacks against Ragzlin are most effective and keeping away from his massive brawniness. This seems, to me, VERY appropriate for a guy who looks like a hobgoblin barbarian with a giant warhammer. It also makes him a lot tougher with 97 HP and would make the battle more challenging. I'd rather face THIS Ragzlin with less minions around him for better balance than to face a CR 4 hobgoblin with like 50 HP who my Fighter could face 1v1 and beat.

The main point, however, is that if Halsin is with you, the man should not be some nerfed level 4 noob. HE'S A GOSH DARN DANG DIDDLY ARCHDRUID, and no matter what way you slice it, the man should be at least level 10. If you are fighting a battle with a level 10 druid on your side, you need a boss who is MUCH tougher than Ragzlin is currently or the level 10 ARCHDRUID ACCOMPLISHED HEALER is going to wipe the floor with everyone or at least he should. If they are going to NOT allow you to have Halsin in the battle with you, then whatever. Fine. Nerf Ragzlin or whatever. But either way, if they're going to allow Halsin to join you at any point fighting any battle at all, the mans needs to be appropriately leveled.

And again, if Halsin is at least level 10, as he should be, Kagha should be at least somewhere close to that, not some level 4 noob that my brand new druid I created can 1v1 and win. She's supposed to be the head of the dang grove in Halsin's place, not some barely able to do anything baby druid. Same with Rath. It's like you guys are focusing on one little thing and not taking the whole into consideration.

And again, it's perfectly fine to create a boss like a CR 6 Hobgoblin Warlord for this point in the game. Make the players work to defeat Ragzlin and Minthara. Don't create the game so someone can just waltz into the Goblin Camp and kill its leaders like it's no big deal. The player should have to work to build up their characters to prepare for something like that. Don't allow players to simply rush from the Nautiloid into the Goblin Camp and kill everything like it's super easy. What the heck kind of crap game would that be? A CR 6 Hobgoblin Warlord with Faithbreaker is appropriate especially with Halsin's help. Actually, with Halsin's help, he would not be difficult at all, but that's how it should be because you were smart enough to get an ARCHDRUID'S help to defeat your enemies.

And with Kagha and Olodan, if you are good enough to turn Kagha against Olodan, then again you've successfully acquired the advantage in that battle. You persuaded Kagha to help you against a very tough boss bad guy instead of having to face Kagha AND Olodan with only Rath to help you as a very tough ally. So again, it would be appropriate and it would work well with the game. Roleplay well, get help fighting main bad guys. Roleplay poorly, you have a tougher fight ahead of you.

Halsin should just turn into a bird and fly back to his Grove where he has responsibilities to the other druids to keep them safe and lead them. A leader wouldn't risk their life performing unnecessary risky heroics.

But overall.. yes, NPC's should be higher level that makes sense in the context and hierarchy of the world rather than match the level of the current party just because we need to be able to fight everyone "fairly". We don't need to be able to fight everyone everywhere. And the fights don't have to be fair either. If Halsin needs to be a potential enemy for the party to fight, the party should have help to balance the fight against an 11th level Druid rather than an archdruid having the stats of a novice druid. The Absolute already wants to get rid of Halsin and there are more powerful servants available for the task. Or there can be a plot to poison them or weaken them somehow before the fight. That would be so much more interesting an rewarding too compared to "just another fight".

If everything is scaled down to match the party, the party doesn't grow from beginners to heroes. Archdruids and archmages don't mean anything in the world. Always being a badass top dog who can beat anyone is a really boring lackluster dynamic.

Uhm ... no, he is not. :-/

At best he is one of Bosses in one of multiple possible approaches that solves one of surface quests.
Nothing more.

Actualy ... Ragzlin is as optional, as litteraly anyone else. O_o

There is multiple mentioning of Moonrise Towers, maybe in final game you will be able to skip whole Druid vs. Goblins conflict ... and just follow different path (Gith for example) ...

Out of mind i think you learn about Moonrise Towers from: Halsin his notes and diary, Minthara (who coveniently have Halsin's Diary if you kill her ... or had in previous patches), that Zhentarim vendor in Goblin camp, from Gnoll leader if you search her mind, from raiders and the Elf lady in Burning Inn ... and funny enough, So ... i dare to presume Ragzlin is just optional boss.

The story is what the player makes of it, because the EA is very flexible when it comes to the main plot. You can skip the goblin camp completely, and leave the goblin - tieflings conflict to resolve itself. Ragzlin and Minthara, and even Halsin are optional so far.

I obviously compared the Hag to Firkraag. As they are both pretty optional.
I compared Ragzlin to Aran Linvail, the boss of chapter three if you chose to side with Bodhi.

Also, Ragzlin is not nerfed, he is just not what you expected. That is a difference. You give erveryone a role and that are angry that the game does fall short on what you see as their role and how they, in your opinion, should be.

Ragzlin is underwhelming? Could be, but that does not mean he is nerfed. It just means that he is an underwhelming enemy.
There is no reason every enemy needs to be fought and every quest needs to be done. If the developer want to give people the freedom to skip quests, for rp or whatever reasons, then they can not finetune the boss battles to the level of someone who exhausted all possible content before going into that fight. Meaning it is easily possible that a boss-type enemy is underwhelming.

Also, no, not every hard encounter needs to give you stuff to better defeat other enemies. They can just exist as flavor for the world and an additional challenge.

You people are impossible. Fine. Don't view Ragzlin and MInthara as the biggest bosses in the EA because you can avoid them. I totally disagree with you when you say they AREN'T the biggest bosses in EA, but whatever.

The facts remain. Halsin should be WAY tougher, which means Kagha should be WAY tougher, which means Olodan should be WAY tougher, which means Rath should be WAY tougher. And if that's true, then Ragzlin and Minthara should be WAY tougher since everyone, including Zevlor and Kagha, are so freaking scared of them and their minions.