Larian Studios
Posted By: DebuYarou Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 15/10/21 09:42 AM
I know its fully subjective but I need to remove it from my chest. In Players handbook, page 202, passage Casting time - Bonus Action, quote: "A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action" end of quote. Because of that, for example, Cleric can't use Healing Word + Cure Wounds. He can use Healing Word + Cantrip. So, same goes for Sorcerer... No two Fireballs in same turn!!! Its insane! Its 48 AOE Damage on average in one turn! He can Quicken Spell Freball + Cantrip.
But unfortunately this is not a case. He can use two spells with Quicken Spell. I know, I know its there game and they can make changes. They can release like 5.5e book with some changes (buffs and nerfs for some classes, subclasses or some changes to mechanical rules). Sure we don't need to like them so we can homebrew otherwise. I am just saying.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 15/10/21 09:55 AM
We can also see from the Fighter's Action Surge how in BG3 one (legit) extra action can lead to trivializing encounters. OP stealth, abundant invisibility potions and poison/dipping combined with Action Surge create insane alpha strikes that murder bosses before they even get a turn.

Now that's going to be a lot worse on a high level Sorcerer who can cast two powerful spells per turn.

I noticed from the latest PFH that Swen likes to play this way himself, using meta knowledge (characters preparing for enemies they don't yet know are there, or stealing quest items from them). Metagaming is relevant because a lot of players are going to play this way too even if they might now particularily enjoy it, like myself. But you can't forget an encounter you know will be there. I think Larian should minimize the usefulness of this kind of metagaming knowledge to keep things fresh, interesting and also challenging. Make these enemies more aware and harder to surprise, especially bosses. I'd like more fair fights instead of puzzle fights that won't be a challenge after you crack the puzzle the first time.

Sorcerers doing Quickened double spells surprises from stealth will just mow through everything especially when you know what to expect.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 15/10/21 10:22 AM
The ability to cast more than a cantrip makes the quicken spell really useful.
I like this change. I don't care that it will have a huge impact on the balance.
It is a SP game with optional cooperation which means it doesn't really matter.
Posted By: LukasPrism Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 15/10/21 11:13 AM
The 5E rules are kinda confusing, I can see why they ignored them. An easy fix would be to just say you can only quicken cantrips. That way you get a BA cantrip and can do something else with your action
Posted By: Tuco Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 15/10/21 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
The 5E rules are kinda confusing,
Eh, not really. "Never allow two (non-cantrip) spells in the same turn" is as plain and inequivacable as it gets.
Posted By: Niara Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 15/10/21 03:11 PM
That's also not correct, Tuco ^.^

For example...

If that was the rule, then you could never counterspell someone attempting to counterspell your fireball, the exact example given in the handbook... since that counterspell would be a second levelled spell that you would be casting on your turn.

The rule itself is very arbitrary, and very stupid, and it legitimately adds nothing to the game for existing, and absolutely SHOULD be ignored and dispensed with... because all it ACTUALLY does is trip player sup and limit them unnecessarily. It doesn't prevent any major exploits for existing, and it doesn't add to the fun and enjoyment of the game.

==

Imagine, if you will, two scenarios:

A 17Wizard/2Fighter Casts Meteor Swarm. Across the field, an enemy mage was waiting to counterspell the first thing that powerful caster did... The mage casting metoer swarm sees them, and, without interrupting their calling of meteors, expertly counterspells their attempted counterspell. Meteors rain down and decimate the field, and then, because they were somewhat irked at this, the powerful wizard then action surges, and levies an eighth level disintegrate at the impudent little upstart that had tried to counterspell her - the poor enemy caster can't counterspell this as they've already used their reaction, and they are disintegrated with great prejudice.

However... imagine scenario two:

The same powerful, high level wizard/fighter steps forward, but decides to raise a quick shield of faith over themselves before they begin calling their meteors... Across the field, and enemy mage, waiting to counterspell the first thing the powerful caster does... counterspells their shield of faith. The powerful mage, who always follows the rules as written in the handbook.... CANNOT counterspell the enemy mage: Counterspell is a levelled spell, and it is their turn, and they have cast a bonus action spell, so they are NOT ALLOWED. Moreover, they now CANNOT cast their meteor swarm. EVEN IF they Action Surge now, they STILL CANNOT cast their meteor swarm, or their disintegrate, or even a measly little magic missile at the enemy caster who foiled them. They throw a firebolt in disgust... it's all they can do.

This is the same mage, with the same abilities, following the by-the-book rules.

The bonus action spell rule is not a sensible rule, and it doesn't serve a legitimate value. There is no break in balance to allowing spells to be cast according to their required turn economy and nothing more; there actually aren't that many bonus action spells, and none of them break the balance of the game to accompany a normal levelled spell any more than many, many other things that other classes can do with impunity. (like, for example the fighter/warlock/pally who can nova off 11 spell slots in a single turn perfectly legally.)

==

Sorcerer, and Quicken Spell, IS the one exception to this, and it should be an exception. Quicken is the problem for which the above rule really exists, and it should apply to Quicken exclusively, not hobble all spellcasters everywhere.

Quicken should be written:

"When you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 action, you can spend 2 sorcery points to change the casting time to 1 bonus action for this casting. If you cast a spell as a bonus action using this Metamagic, you can't use an action to cast another spell during the same turn, unless it is a cantrip."

Implement quicken that way, and remove the arbitrary bonus action spell overarching rule, and you'll have a much better game.
Posted By: Lastman Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 15/10/21 06:30 PM
Wait untill we get haste and muticlassing, casting 4 spells per turn, uff! Gonna be fun!
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 15/10/21 06:37 PM
The game should not be balanced for multiclassing, as these are usually terribly out of balance combinations. First of all, they should focus on balancing games for singular classes. Anyone who wants to break the game with some combo op (which is the purpose of such builds) will still be able to do it.
As for haste, it's fairly easy to fix. Make it not combined with quicken spell
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 15/10/21 06:37 PM
Somewhat off-topic, but I wonder if Larian's Haste implementation will allow level 5+ fighters to make multiple attacks with that haste action...

On topic: Yes, quicken should not allow you to cast 2-leveled spells in the same turn. Especially with the ease of long resting.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 15/10/21 06:43 PM
Another way to get some balance would be to limit the maximum level of a spell you can use in a turn would be reduced by 1 for each spell cast.
This would prevent the player from being able to cast two or more fireballs in a given turn (at least for a large part of the game) without making the quicken spell a waste of points.
Posted By: Lastman Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 15/10/21 06:49 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Somewhat off-topic, but I wonder if Larian's Haste implementation will allow level 5+ fighters to make multiple attacks with that haste action...

On topic: Yes, quicken should not allow you to cast 2-leveled spells in the same turn. Especially with the ease of long resting.
well, i was basing my comment on that fact! Speed potion is just a haste spell so if that is any indication of how haste will work. I guess we will just get one extra action like you get from action surge or potion of speed.

We can't forget that larain loves APs from dos 2 and i belive Dos 2 players love multiple actions per turn and larian knows that...


The real question is what will happen with extra attacks. smile

This is why we need level 5 cap fast so we can see if people will go insain or will they let Larian do it's thing and just let 5e rules slide in turn for more video game fun...
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 15/10/21 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Another way to get some balance would be to limit the maximum level of a spell you can use in a turn would be reduced by 1 for each spell cast.
This would prevent the player from being able to cast two or more fireballs in a given turn (at least for a large part of the game) without making the quicken spell a waste of points.
An interesting option, but it seems more complex to actually code than simply implementing RAW. Consider these examples:

1.) You quicken a 5th-level spell. Then you cast a 4th-level spell with your action. All good.
2.) You cast a 4th-level spell with you action. Then you quicken a 5th-level spell. Oh-woah hold on there, that's not allowed by this rule, even though it's literally the same as option #1.

In effect, this rule would either: a) only prevent the casting of two same-leveled spells during the same turn, or b)depend on the order you cast the normal vs quickened spell, which is what you suggested but eh this makes even less sense than the RAW BA/Action spell restriction.

It also still allows you to cast two incredibly powerful spells in the same turn. A Fireball plus a Wall of Fire is a lot of damage!
Posted By: LukasPrism Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 15/10/21 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
The 5E rules are kinda confusing,
Eh, not really. "Never allow two (non-cantrip) spells in the same turn" is as plain and inequivacable as it gets.

It’s actually not that simple. 5E won’t let you cast Shillelagh (which is a BA cantrip) and a levelled spell in the same round.

Or players might quicken a cantrip to a BA thinking they’ll use their action for a spell, then wonder why they can now only cast a second cantrip with a casting time of one action? It is one of the most kind-bending rules in 5E for new players. The way you’ve boiled it down to one phrase how you did shows you don’t fully understand it either.
Posted By: PrivateRaccoon Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 15/10/21 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by Lastman
We can't forget that larain loves APs from dos 2 and i belive Dos 2 players love multiple actions per turn and larian knows that...

...This is why we need level 5 cap fast so we can see if people will go insain or will they let Larian do it's thing and just let 5e rules slide in turn for more video game fun...

Sadly I'm seeing your point. It gets more and more obvious that Larian only wanted the IP for marketing reasons and have no interest in creating a game with 5e rules. And here I was looking forward to, what I hoped, would be a, as possible, perfect rendition of the tabletop game to a digital format. Oh well, maybe next time...
Posted By: NinthPlane Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 15/10/21 09:31 PM
Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
Originally Posted by Lastman
We can't forget that larain loves APs from dos 2 and i belive Dos 2 players love multiple actions per turn and larian knows that...

...This is why we need level 5 cap fast so we can see if people will go insain or will they let Larian do it's thing and just let 5e rules slide in turn for more video game fun...

Sadly I'm seeing your point. It gets more and more obvious that Larian only wanted the IP for marketing reasons and have no interest in creating a game with 5e rules. And here I was looking forward to, what I hoped, would be a, as possible, perfect rendition of the tabletop game to a digital format. Oh well, maybe next time...

Solasta.
Posted By: schpas Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 15/10/21 09:42 PM
Maybe the table top rule sets are not good for video games. It's funny you guys are disappointed cause they did not implent the D&D 5e rules strictly and i am disappointed cause i
I realized that the D&D 5 rule set is too casual for me. But they have to make a great story with many well introduced npcs and mybe i can forget the poor character creation in this game.
Posted By: Merlex Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 15/10/21 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by DebuYarou
I know its fully subjective but I need to remove it from my chest. In Players handbook, page 202, passage Casting time - Bonus Action, quote: "A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action" end of quote. Because of that, for example, Cleric can't use Healing Word + Cure Wounds. He can use Healing Word + Cantrip. So, same goes for Sorcerer... No two Fireballs in same turn!!! Its insane! Its 48 AOE Damage on average in one turn! He can Quicken Spell Freball + Cantrip.
But unfortunately this is not a case. He can use two spells with Quicken Spell. I know, I know its there game and they can make changes. They can release like 5.5e book with some changes (buffs and nerfs for some classes, subclasses or some changes to mechanical rules). Sure we don't need to like them so we can homebrew otherwise. I am just saying.

You don't need Quickened Spell to cast 2 leveled spells in the same turn, in this game. I've cast Misty Step and then Magic Missile with a Wizard, more times then I can count. And I've cast Healing Word + Cure Light Wounds in the same turn as well. Any spell that can normally cast with a bonus action can be followed or preceded by another leveled spell. Now I know it's not allowed in 5e, but it's been allowed in BG3 since the beginning.

I'm more concerned about the the extra Meta Magic Sorcerers get. Two at 2nd level, then another at 3rd, at least according to FextraLife on YouTube. Note they also make the Wiki page. According to 5e, it's 2 METAs at 3rd level and another at 10th, then another at 17th. Two at 2nd (instead of 3rd), with a 3rd on at 3rd level instead of 10th is way way OP.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 15/10/21 09:49 PM
I don't really know DnD's rules about that but being able to cast 2 level 1+ spell with metamagic looks really OP.
I can't imagine how powerfull the sorcerer will be at higher level compared to any other caster.

I think it would be better balanced if you could only use 1 spell + 1 cantrip (or eventually level 1 spell) per turn with this metamagic option.
Posted By: schpas Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 15/10/21 09:53 PM
It is OP. Killed the old hag in two rounds. casted scorching ray two times in one round with critical hit and the hag lost a lot of HP. Back in the old days of BG2 you could play the game only with one sorcerer (one man party). This was a lot of fun.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 15/10/21 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by Merlex
You don't need Quickened Spell to cast 2 leveled spells in the same turn, in this game. I've cast Misty Step and then Magic Missile with a Wizard, more times then I can count. And I've cast Healing Word + Cure Light Wounds in the same turn as well. Any spell that can normally cast with a bonus action can be followed or preceded by another leveled spell. Now I know it's not allowed in 5e, but it's been allowed in BG3 since the beginning.
Yes, but the difference here is that normal BA spells are pretty weak. Healing Word, Misty Step, Sanctuary, etc. But since quicken can make any spell cost a BA, it allows for incredibly powerful turns. As in the example of fireball+fireball. A sorcerer could wipe out many enemies before they or any other character even gets a turn.

Edit: see the example given in schpas's comment above
Posted By: dwig Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 15/10/21 11:31 PM
I wasn't able to select quicken spell at level 2. Is it even in the game?
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 16/10/21 05:34 AM
Originally Posted by dwig
I wasn't able to select quicken spell at level 2. Is it even in the game?

Yes, there are more options at level 3...
Posted By: Alodar Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 16/10/21 02:09 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I don't really know DnD's rules about that but being able to cast 2 level 1+ spell with metamagic looks really OP.
I can't imagine how powerfull the sorcerer will be at higher level compared to any other caster.

I think it would be better balanced if you could only use 1 spell + 1 cantrip (or eventually level 1 spell) per turn with this metamagic option.

Casting 2 level 1+ spells has always been available to sorcerers via 5e rules.
A sorcerer can twin spells enabling them to cast 2 Chromatic orbs, cast Haste on two fighters, cast two disintegrates, etc. all in the same round.
A multi-class fighter sorcerer could action surge and cast 4 leveled spells in the same round all according to D&D 5e rules.

Currently in BG3 any caster can cast 2 level 1+ spells in the same round by consuming a Potion of Speed.
Also any caster can cast 2 level 1+ spells if one has a casting time of a bonus action and the other has a casting time of an action.
Posted By: Alodar Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 16/10/21 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by dwig
I wasn't able to select quicken spell at level 2. Is it even in the game?
They upped the cost of Quicken from 2 sorcery points in 5E to 3 sorcery points in BG3.

It's not available at 2nd level because your maximum sorcery points is only 2.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 16/10/21 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by Alodar
They upped the cost of Quicken from 2 sorcery points in 5E to 3 sorcery points in BG3.
I suppose that's good? Given the increased power of being able to cast two-leveled spells... Hmmm, what if Quicken costed 2+spell level sorcery points? This would be roughly equivalent to RAW for quickening a cantrip and then scale with spell power. Casting two fireballs would cost 5 sorcery points which doesn't sound too unbalanced. A level 5 sorcerer could only do that 1x per day and that would use up all their points.

Obviously it'd be better/easier if Larian changed the quicken rules back to RAW, but it's an interesting idea to consider.
Posted By: Volsalex Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 16/10/21 04:54 PM
You all shouldn't forget that even before Sorcerer was implemented people could easily cast 2 full spells in one turn with Haste potions / spores, so all things like 'I can cast Scorching Rays twice in a row and take out half of boss HP before his turn" were in the game before.

I think that there could be an easy solution to all this Sorcerer vs other classes efficiency dispute that also fits the already existing spells and items in the game.
Make a rule that forbids to cast more than two spells or perform more than two attack actions in a single turn. This rule alone would solve lots of issues with class balance:
- Wizards could just use Haste spell on themselves to cast 2 spells in one round, but need to spend a 3rd level spell slot and maintain Concentration to do so.
- Sorcerers can either use Quicken Spell (so that they can spend Concentation on something else, for example Web) or use the Haste spell, but can't combine them for more casts because of the "2 spells / round" limit.
- Fighters and multiclassed Fighters can use Action Surge or Haste potion / buff for second cast / attack action, but not both for 3+ actions.
- All other classes can just use a Haste potion or be a target of Haste spells to cast 2 spells / perform 2 attack actions per round.

This way:
- All classes have limited access to 2 actions / spells per round via either consumables, concentration spells or depletable resource / ability.
- Players of any class can still perform spell combinations without the tabletop restrictions.
- Sorcerers don't outperform Wizards as both classes have a way to cast 2 spells per turn, but can't cast 3 or more.
- Several OP multiclass combos like X Sorcerer / 2 Fighter which could potentially cast 3-4 spells in one turn are automatically restricted to 2 spells / turn just as all other classes are.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 16/10/21 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by Volsalex
You all shouldn't forget that even before Sorcerer was implemented people could easily cast 2 full spells in one turn with Haste potions / spores, so all things like '"I can cast Scorching Rays twice in a row and take out half of boss HP before his turn" were in the game before.

I think that there could be an easy solution to all this Sorcerer vs other classes efficiency dispute that also fits the already existing spells and items in the game.
Make a rule that forbids to cast more than two spells or perform more than two attack actions in a single turn. This rule alone would solve lots of issues with class balance:
- Wizards could just use Haste spell on themselves to cast 2 spells in one round, but need to spend a 3rd level spell slot and maintain Concentration to do so.
- Sorcerers can either use Quicken Spell (so that they can spend Concentation on something else, for example Web) or use the Haste spell, but can't combine them for more casts because of the "2 spells / round" limit.
- Fighters and multiclassed Fighters can use Action Surge or Haste potion / buff for second cast / attack action, but not both.
- All other classes can just use a Haste potion or be a target of Haste spells to cast 2 spells / perform 2 attack actions per round.

This way:
- Players of any class can still perform cool spell combinations.
- Sorcerers don't outperform Wizards as both classes have a way to cast 2 spells per turn, but can't cast 3 or more.
- Several OP multiclass combos like X Sorcerer / 2 Fighter which could potentially cast 3-4 spells in one turn are automatically restricted to 2 spells / turn just as all other classes are.
Not a fan of this suggestion. BG3 allowing casters to cast 2 spells via haste (not allowed in 5e RAW) does not imply that sorcerers should also be able to do so via Quicken. Two wrongs don't make a right. This suggestion is treating the symptom of potential >2 spells per turn, not the underlying issue of imbalanced homebrew (or more likely, improper rule implementation due to lack of understanding).

If you make both not allowed (haste action can't be used to cast a spell, and quicken prevents you from casting non-cantrips):
- Players of any class can still perform spell combinations by using bonus action spells and cantrips.
- Sorcerers are supposed to be able to outperform wizards using metamagic - that's the whole point of the class. Wizards have versatility, sorcerers have bursts of power via metamagic. Giving wizards the same power bursts takes away from the sorcerer's unique-ness.
- Multiclass combos (X Sorcerer / 2 Fighter) can cast 2 spells in a turn, unlike other classes, but only once per short rest. This is powerful, but you lose 2 levels of sorcerer to get this, meaning that you're a whole spell level behind pure sorcerers. A ~fair tradeoff.
Posted By: Volsalex Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 16/10/21 06:31 PM
The problem with the tabletop spell + cantrip rule is that it combined with random initiative order severely prohibits spell combinations. Full spells + cantrips have too little combinations to even work with. As for levelled spells, even if you have 2 party members with synergistic spells like Web and Fireball, they can be easily thrown around the order by the initiative roll the way that by the time the Fireball wielder gets his turn, target(s) might get their turn earlier and just break and run out of the Web wasting a spell combo just because of bad RNG. Moreover, Web wielder could just get his turn after the Fireball wielder to make things even worse.

That is why I suspect Larian did tweak the 5e spell rule for the first place - not because they didn't understand it, but more to promote creative thinking and actually allow many combos to happen without dependance on RNG as you execute them yourself. This has a downside that 2 spells / turn often is (close to) OP, but it can be solved via just limiting access to such a possibility. In Sorcerer's case, there are many ways to do it - from increased Sorcery Point cost for Quicken Spell if it is a levelled spell (as they already did, but in general) to manual limits like X times per short / long rest.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 16/10/21 07:04 PM
Can you use two metamagic abilities on the same spell in BG3? I didn't try that and I guess the lack of sorcery points at level 3 makes it impossible anyway.

A double Fireball alpha strike at level 5 sounds like a balance nightmare. But a level 11 Sorcerer casting two Twinned Disintegrates sounds completely bonkers. An enemy Sorcerer could Disintegrate 4 PC's before anyone gets a turn. And if you can't... "just" a double Disintegrate on the same target also sounds like a balance nightmare.
Posted By: booboo Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 16/10/21 07:12 PM
Casting 2 spells (not a spell and a cantrip) a round at low level is just overpowered - in the iterations of more modern D&D I played (WotC 3/3.5 + PF 1E) this has been a high level ability e.g. Quicken was spell level + 4 or thereabouts ...So simply not possible at lower levels.

I think the 5E sorcerers metamagic quicken is crazy ...I assume in TT it works (sort of) because you can't long rest willy nilly. But they really should have attached a cost related to spell level (so Larian are being sensible I think from a balance view..odd, they ignore it in so many other places). Clearly someone at WoTC didn't think this class through very well. Still, if it's the official rule, then you're liable to p'off sorcerer afficionados by changing it - and there are are more important things to change like classes using spells they shouldn't, swapping out spell slots when you want etc.

On a related note: haste is really overpowered and simply broken in BG3 if it allows you to cast another spell that you would not normally be able to cast - the 5E rules are fairly clear on what you can use the extra 'action' for, and casting a spell isn't allowed. An extra attrack - fine...but even guzzling potion/using a scroll (activation) isn't allowed, if you look at various rules discussions. And haste potions are so easly to find - haste is a 3rd level spell, we should barely see these potions in this early part of the game, and they should be extremely valuable. I already have 3 and I've just reached the Druid grove...Maybe this is an EA thing, have so much ready acces sto usables...I hope so.

With regards to initiative: in D&D, intiative is always somewhat variable - but it's biased by your stats like everything else (combat rolls, checks etc). The point is to be adaptable in combat - deal with what the dice have dealt and be strategic. The only annoyance that does impede strategy is the lack of a delay action so you can move down the turn order to better synchronize abilities. But rather than screwing with spell balance they should fix that. Pathfinder wrath does this perfectly - I use it all the time in TB mode.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 16/10/21 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by booboo
I think the 5E sorcerers metamagic quicken is crazy ...I assume in TT it works (sort of) because you can't long rest willy nilly. But they really should have attached a cost related to spell level (so Larian are being sensible I think from a balance view..odd, they ignore it in so many other places). Clearly someone at WoTC didn't think this class through very well. Still, if it's the official rule, then you're liable to p'off sorcerer afficionados by changing it - and there are are more important things to change like classes using spells they shouldn't, swapping out spell slots when you want etc. .
It's not the official rule. The ability to cast a leveled spell after quickening a spell is Larian homebrew. There are a lot of problems with the official sorcerer class, but this isn't one of them. RAW, you're effectively paying 2 sorcery points to cast a cantrip (or take the Dodge/Disengage action), which is not that powerful.
Posted By: DebuYarou Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 07:23 AM
Originally Posted by Alodar
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I don't really know DnD's rules about that but being able to cast 2 level 1+ spell with metamagic looks really OP.
I can't imagine how powerfull the sorcerer will be at higher level compared to any other caster.

I think it would be better balanced if you could only use 1 spell + 1 cantrip (or eventually level 1 spell) per turn with this metamagic option.

Casting 2 level 1+ spells has always been available to sorcerers via 5e rules.
A sorcerer can twin spells enabling them to cast 2 Chromatic orbs, cast Haste on two fighters, cast two disintegrates, etc. all in the same round.
A multi-class fighter sorcerer could action surge and cast 4 leveled spells in the same round all according to D&D 5e rules.

Currently in BG3 any caster can cast 2 level 1+ spells in the same round by consuming a Potion of Speed.
Also any caster can cast 2 level 1+ spells if one has a casting time of a bonus action and the other has a casting time of an action.

Wrong. In Players handbook, page 202, passage Casting time - Bonus Action, quote: "A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action" end of quote.
Posted By: booboo Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 07:37 AM
Ah, ok - if sorcerer metamagic quicken is only for cantrips then that is not a problem. So yes, the Larian homebrew is completely overpowered and should be reverted - making the sorcery cost higher is not enough.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 07:37 AM
Originally Posted by Volsalex
The problem with the tabletop spell + cantrip rule is that it combined with random initiative order severely prohibits spell combinations. Full spells + cantrips have too little combinations to even work with. As for levelled spells, even if you have 2 party members with synergistic spells like Web and Fireball, they can be easily thrown around the order by the initiative roll the way that by the time the Fireball wielder gets his turn, target(s) might get their turn earlier and just break and run out of the Web wasting a spell combo just because of bad RNG. Moreover, Web wielder could just get his turn after the Fireball wielder to make things even worse.
The correct answer to this could be allowing PC's to delay their turn to go in the same initiative pocket with another PC.

I think being able to cast two spells per turn is a balance problem. Misty Step + Thunderwave before the target gets any chance to react is already too much. Enemies need to be able to do the same and then it just gets ridiculous.
Posted By: DebuYarou Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 07:49 AM
Originally Posted by Volsalex
You all shouldn't forget that even before Sorcerer was implemented people could easily cast 2 full spells in one turn with Haste potions / spores, so all things like 'I can cast Scorching Rays twice in a row and take out half of boss HP before his turn" were in the game before.

I think that there could be an easy solution to all this Sorcerer vs other classes efficiency dispute that also fits the already existing spells and items in the game.
Make a rule that forbids to cast more than two spells or perform more than two attack actions in a single turn. This rule alone would solve lots of issues with class balance:
- Wizards could just use Haste spell on themselves to cast 2 spells in one round, but need to spend a 3rd level spell slot and maintain Concentration to do so.
- Sorcerers can either use Quicken Spell (so that they can spend Concentation on something else, for example Web) or use the Haste spell, but can't combine them for more casts because of the "2 spells / round" limit.
- Fighters and multiclassed Fighters can use Action Surge or Haste potion / buff for second cast / attack action, but not both for 3+ actions.
- All other classes can just use a Haste potion or be a target of Haste spells to cast 2 spells / perform 2 attack actions per round.

This way:
- All classes have limited access to 2 actions / spells per round via either consumables, concentration spells or depletable resource / ability.
- Players of any class can still perform spell combinations without the tabletop restrictions.
- Sorcerers don't outperform Wizards as both classes have a way to cast 2 spells per turn, but can't cast 3 or more.
- Several OP multiclass combos like X Sorcerer / 2 Fighter which could potentially cast 3-4 spells in one turn are automatically restricted to 2 spells / turn just as all other classes are.

In D&D 5e Action Surge and Haste has different effect. Haste - "Choose a willing creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, the target's speed is doubled, it gains a +2 bonus to AC, it has advantage on Dexterity Saving Throws, and it gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon Attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action."
Example: Fighter level 11. With Action Surge: 3 attacks, use Action Surge, 3 more attacks. Its total of 6 attacks. With Haste but without Action Surge: 3 attacks and 1 attack form Haste action. Its total of 4 attacks.
So spell caster that multiclassed in Fighter and with Action Surge can have one more cantrip because of rule In Players handbook, page 202, passage Casting time - Bonus Action (because turn its not over and you already casted spell level 1 or higher), but with Haste no. With Haste action, He can hit enemy with staff or poke him with wand.
Posted By: Niara Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 08:53 AM
Originally Posted by DebuYarou
So spell caster that multiclassed in Fighter and with Action Surge can have one more cantrip because of rule In Players handbook, page 202, passage Casting time - Bonus Action (because turn its not over and you already casted spell level 1 or higher), but with Haste no. With Haste action, He can hit enemy with staff or poke him with wand.

To be clear:

"Meteor Swarm-> (timely Counterspell)-> Action Surge-> Disintegrate" Is perfectly legitimate in the official PHB rules. "Shield of Faith -> (throw away dodge action)-> Action Surge -> Magic Missile" is NOT allowed or legitimate, officially. Just to emphasise how stupid the official rule is.

The bonus action rule is, as one might understand from the heading, related only to bonus actions. You only get curtailed on your casting options if you cast a bonus action spell.

Originally Posted by 1varangian
The correct answer to this could be allowing PC's to delay their turn to go in the same initiative pocket with another PC.

I think being able to cast two spells per turn is a balance problem. Misty Step + Thunderwave before the target gets any chance to react is already too much. Enemies need to be able to do the same and then it just gets ridiculous.

There are major issues with delaying your turn, and very good reasons why that's not a thing you can do in 5e. Instead, as a means of allowing people to combo or delay for particular triggers and moments, without running into those breaks and problems, 5e has the Ready action.... BG3 does not have the Ready action, however, and that's a problem that should be fixed, but the implementation of the actual mechanics, not by the addition of more homebrew.

Misty Step + Thuderwave is not in any way a problem for balance. Someone under the effects of Fly, or anyone with a natural flying speed, can do the same, and then some, and there are many other ways besides to arrange the same or similar effects.
Posted By: Alodar Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 12:13 PM
Originally Posted by DebuYarou
Originally Posted by Alodar
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I don't really know DnD's rules about that but being able to cast 2 level 1+ spell with metamagic looks really OP.
I can't imagine how powerfull the sorcerer will be at higher level compared to any other caster.

I think it would be better balanced if you could only use 1 spell + 1 cantrip (or eventually level 1 spell) per turn with this metamagic option.

Casting 2 level 1+ spells has always been available to sorcerers via 5e rules.
A sorcerer can twin spells enabling them to cast 2 Chromatic orbs, cast Haste on two fighters, cast two disintegrates, etc. all in the same round.
A multi-class fighter sorcerer could action surge and cast 4 leveled spells in the same round all according to D&D 5e rules.

Currently in BG3 any caster can cast 2 level 1+ spells in the same round by consuming a Potion of Speed.
Also any caster can cast 2 level 1+ spells if one has a casting time of a bonus action and the other has a casting time of an action.

Wrong. In Players handbook, page 202, passage Casting time - Bonus Action, quote: "A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action" end of quote.

That rule applies to casting a spell on a bonus action and then casting with your action.
It has no bearing on twinning a level 1+ spell spell with your action and then action surging and twinning another level 1+ spell


Per the Sage Advice Compendium:

Quote
If you cast a spell, such as healing word, with a bonus action, you can cast another spell with your action, but that other spell must be a cantrip. Keep in mind that this particular limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it.


Any fighter mage could cast a fireball, action surge and cast another fireball.
A multi-class fighter sorcerer could use twin spell and action surge to cast 4 level 1+ spells in the same round , for example 4 Disintegrates, all according to D&D 5e rules.

Currently in BG3 any caster can cast 2 level 1+ spells in the same round by consuming a Potion of Speed.(or standing in a cloud of Haste Spores)
Also,currently in BG3, any caster can cast 2 level 1+ spells if one has a casting time of a bonus action and the other has a casting time of an action. (Have your Wizard cast Misty Step and Magic Missile on the same turn if you wish to verify)
Posted By: Chukkensorc Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 12:25 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I don't really know DnD's rules about that but being able to cast 2 level 1+ spell with metamagic looks really OP.
I can't imagine how powerfull the sorcerer will be at higher level compared to any other caster.

I think it would be better balanced if you could only use 1 spell + 1 cantrip (or eventually level 1 spell) per turn with this metamagic option.

I played real DND last night. Our Fighter is an Eldritch knight meaning he can cast Wizard spells (kinda like the Arcane Trickster in Bg3). He cast the fireball spell, action surge, and cast the fireball spell again. He killed over 60 enemies (it was a very large siege fight). As a fighter, he can only ever do this once. At around 8th or 9th level a sorcerer (without the BA limitation) can cast 4 fireballs in two turns, OR cast 2 upcasted fireballs in a single turn. It gets insane very quickly. How about multiple upcasted Magic missiles? You could put 12-20 darts in one target. Assuming they deal 3 damage each that’s 36-60 damage each turn.

I think they should nerf every class to not allow a BA spell and an action spell. The enemies can do what you do as well. Imagine trying to kill a boss that has or is a cleric. BA healing word cast at 2nd level, and cure wounds at 2nd level. It’s broken IMO.
Posted By: schpas Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 12:30 PM
At the end of the game cantrips are not so useful anymore (Level 10 +). If quicken spell only allows you to cast one addinoal cantrip to make f. e. 5 HP damage for a 400 HP foe this feat is not so useful compared to what fighters can do in this game.
Posted By: schpas Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 12:37 PM
This is why i do not like the modern rule sets like D&D 5e as well as Pathfinder. Wizards became very weak cause you can multiclass your fighter to a fighter/wizard/thief/XXXX this is so freaking OP. And the fact that feats like qicken spell only allowas you to cast one add. fucking cantrip is ridiculous.
Posted By: Volsalex Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 01:16 PM
I thought about things that exist in tabletop and are comparable in power to double spell / turn and actually there are some even without the obvious Action Surge. More specifically, these are Empowered Evocation and Overchannel, both of which belong to Evocation Wizard - Sorcerer's direct "nuker caster" competitor.

Empowered Evocation's exception to Magic Missile greatly increases its damage and makes it actually on the level of Sorcerer casting it twice in a row, but without additional spell slot and bonus action cost. While it is a single spell only effect, it is also one of the most common spells used.

Overchannel makes the spell deal maximum damage giving it 100% damage potential and can be used on Fireball as well. Sorcerer that double casts Fireball launches two Fireballs with 50% damage (average roll) potential. Both approaches have their advantage - single cast wastes only a single spell slot and has higher chance of failed saving throw (average 50%) while chance for two failed saving throws in a row is average 25%, but two casts can result in more than average damage done exceeding 100% damage potential and have an ability modifier applied to damage done of each cast separately. That's why Overchannel can be treated on the level of double casting the same spell in one turn, including AoE Spells.

With that taken into account, I don't think that allowing Sorcerer to cast 2 full spells / round gonna break the balance as much as many people here think. While I understand that these features require 10 / 14 lvl against 3 level for Sorcerer's Quicken Spell, Empowered Evocation has no cost and limits and is applied to every Magic Missile cast and Overchannel's first cast is free as well with subsequent casts' damage to Wizard being mitigated by healing or death-savers like Clone spell, while Sorcerer always wastes either his potential spell slots or class mechanic to use this feature.

However, I do agree that even if they keep access for 2 action levelled spells / turn for Sorcerer, it should be limited. There are many ways to do it - from big Sorcery point cost for levelled spells only or manual limitations of X per battle / short rest / long rest to a rule similar to old editions that increased spell slot level required for Quickened spells. They could even allow Quicken Spell affect levelled spell only from level X to keep it more in line with Empowered Evocation / Overchannel.
Posted By: schpas Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 01:48 PM
Empower spells was a feat in D&D 3.5 and is still existing in Pathfinder. Maybe this will be later (higher level) available in D&D 5e ?
Why not allow a wizzard to cast 2 spells? How many attacks fighter/mage/thief multicalss can do later (with sneak attack bonus)?
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 02:10 PM
What is the point of using quicken spell if the only thing you can use is cantrip?
A much better use of the point is to recover the slot, let alone other metamagics.
Nowadays, many classes are able to cast more than one spell per turn, and guess what? It is enjoyable to use the healing word and anything but the useless sacred flame.
Why is balance such a problem when it is a single player game?
If some things are too op, so be it if it makes the game more fun. It still won't be close to pathfinder and some builds.
Posted By: Niara Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by schpas
Empower spells was a feat in D&D 3.5 and is still existing in Pathfinder. Maybe this will be later (higher level) available in D&D 5e ?

Empower does exist in 5e ^.^

It does not exist currently in BG3.
Posted By: PrivateRaccoon Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 02:12 PM
Empower is metamagic, so in 5e that belongs to the sorcerer too. And wizards aren't weak. They simply aren't as strong per spell given as a sorc is. But they have the advantage of having access to sooo many more spells. Which sadly doesn't help much in a crpg where the need of that many spells is low and situational.

Given that Larian manages to develop a good resting system that rewards being conservative with our resources, a wizard will be well balaced against a sorcerer as his spells will probably last over more encounters. We sorcerers burn brightly, but also burn out fast smile
Posted By: schpas Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 02:21 PM
But if the game would go to level 20 the sorc would have enough different spells. At the beginning the spell of the sorc are very limeted but he can have more than 2 different spells per spell level. Have to mention the end of NWN2 where at the final dungeon resting was not possilble. Here the wizzard had serious problems and socerer was the bette choice because he could cast the good spells more often.

But if you compare Sorc / wizard to a freaking fighter multiclass it seems to me that the arcanic classes are weaker?
Posted By: DebuYarou Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 02:52 PM
At the end of the day, for me BG3 is the best game that is ever made. And I don't want to argue which D&D 5e rules are not reasonable. Just want to share some thoughts with you guys.
1. Thought: There is 2 types of people. A - If something is written in book that is the rule and no matter that if its not reasonable that is the rule. B - If something is not reasonable for them, they will just homebrew it otherwise.
I personally love homebrewing.
2. Thought: Maybe Wizards after years of games that are played in 5e rules saw that some rules need to be changed and decide that in cooperation with Larian will already put those changes in the BG3. Or that some changes need to be done to better fit the video game.
I am fine with that. Its there game anyway. They can do whatever they want. Just want to say that I notice some differences between 5e and BG3.
3. Thought: I personally love more D&D 5e then Pathfinder because you have more freedom as DM. I have feeling that you spend too much time for searching rule in book for some situation in Pathfinder.
Also live the idea that DM is above rules that are written in books. Gives game more fluidity and smoothness. And all those books for me are more like suggestion books then rule books.
Posted By: PrivateRaccoon Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by schpas
But if the game would go to level 20 the sorc would have enough different spells. At the beginning the spell of the sorc are very limeted but he can have more than 2 different spells per spell level. Have to mention the end of NWN2 where at the final dungeon resting was not possilble. Here the wizzard had serious problems and socerer was the bette choice because he could cast the good spells more often.

But if you compare Sorc / wizard to a freaking fighter multiclass it seems to me that the arcanic classes are weaker?

Well. here in lies the problem with crpg campaigns. They offer a limited setting with far less different situations to handle than a tt session can. So, in crpgs, the sorcerer comes on top. But, that can be fixed with Larian being an amazing DM, putting in an abundance of situations where those situational spells that a sorcerer would rarely choose, will come in handy.

And yes, the whole point of multiclassing is to make characters that are far superior and more interesting than the original classes. That's why they are so popular.

You seem to forget that it works both ways. A fighter can multiclass into a caster. A caster can just as easily multiclass into a fighter.

Also, I haven't actually seen any conformation from Larian that multiclassing will be incorporated in BG3. Or what our max clvl will be. Multiclassing means giving up progression in our current class and for casters that can be disastrous not having enough clvls to compensate for giving up spell progression.

Take for example the sorcerer. At clvl 9 she learns her first level 5 spell. At lvl 10, she gains her third metamagic feat. If max clvl is 10 then that means that for her to multiclass she has to give up a metamagic feat and possibly that 5th lvl spell to gain levels in another class.


Atleast that is how it works in 3.5. Niara, does multiclassing still work the same way in 5e?
Posted By: schpas Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 03:00 PM
A EA game wich is not fineshed is the best game ever made? No matter what they do in act 2 or 3? And if they indroduce zombie nazis from space in act 2?
Posted By: schpas Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 03:07 PM
Its funny this discussion is only possible for a game with D&D rule set. In other RPGs there is only one wizzard class. In Dragon Age they even merged wizzard and preist. But it is not possible to have a dungeon master in a video game so the voice is fair engough. Since BG2 my main char is always a human sorcerer wink but the pathfinder rule set offers some very interseting wizzard subclasses!
Posted By: Chukkensorc Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by schpas
At the end of the game cantrips are not so useful anymore (Level 10 +). If quicken spell only allows you to cast one addinoal cantrip to make f. e. 5 HP damage for a 400 HP foe this feat is not so useful compared to what fighters can do in this game.
This is incorrect. Cantrips level with you. At 5th they deal 2 damage die, at 11 it’s 3, and at 17 it’s 4. It is the same average damage as 4 sword attacks minus ability mod damage.
Posted By: schpas Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 03:09 PM
Oh ok that's new thank you.
Posted By: Chukkensorc Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 17/10/21 03:12 PM
Originally Posted by schpas
Oh ok that's new thank you.
No worries. WotC made sure no matter what class you play you deal a similar amount of average DPS. Multiclassing breaks this a bit (not enough to block it’s use IMHO) which is why it is an optional rule instead of a core one.
Posted By: Kalenne Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 19/10/21 03:01 AM
Tbh i feel like this change is actually great. It always felt really bad to take quickened spell to effectively "just" to be able to cast an additional cantrip. It costs a ton of sorcery points for a mediocre effect in the base game : Now it's actually useful
Posted By: Ferros Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 19/10/21 06:20 AM
If they were going to apply the RAW for spells per turn, it should be across the board, not just for the Sorc using Metamagic. A cleric can still cast two healing spells per round, a wizard can misty step and fireball in one round, so to prohibit a Sorc from using two leveled spells with Metamagic when other classes can normally cast two leveled spells effectively penalizes the Sorc for using a class ability, and that would suck.

That being said, I don't mind this rule change, I think allowing more than 1 leveled spell per turn makes for more interesting options (and faster spell slot usage), a positive so long as combat encounters are designed accordingly.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 19/10/21 06:41 AM
Originally Posted by Ferros
If they were going to apply the RAW for spells per turn, it should be across the board, not just for the Sorc using Metamagic. A cleric can still cast two healing spells per round, a wizard can misty step and fireball in one round, so to prohibit a Sorc from using two leveled spells with Metamagic when other classes can normally cast two leveled spells effectively penalizes the Sorc for using a class ability, and that would suck.

That being said, I don't mind this rule change, I think allowing more than 1 leveled spell per turn makes for more interesting options (and faster spell slot usage), a positive so long as combat encounters are designed accordingly.


Rather, the fight project shouldn't be a problem. So far Larian is doing very well in this respect (it would be better with the difficulty levels, but what to do, you have to wait).
One metamagic is unlikely to significantly spoil the game, especially as you said any class can.
This means that the game will be specially designed with the possibility of casting additional spells.
There is also no need to worry in advance that enemy sorcerers will be able to destroy the team during the turn.
It is unlikely that Larian will allow them to cast any spells using metamagic. Another thing is that npc doesn't obey class constraints anyway, so that's even less of a problem.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 19/10/21 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
One metamagic is unlikely to significantly spoil the game, especially as you said any class can.
This means that the game will be specially designed with the possibility of casting additional spells.
There's really only 2 ways to account for player sorcerers being able to cast two leveled-spells in the same turn:
1.) Do nothing, allowing the sorcerer to start out a fight by nuking enemies and doing loads of damage/CC/battlefield control. They can do this every fight and at level 6+ - if it somehow gets back to their turn - they'll be able to do it again (because long resting is trivial). This sounds un-fun for other players.
2.) Adjust enemy HP/STs/AC to account for the sorcerer's ~doubled damage. The sorcerer won't be able to have such a drastic effect on their turn, but now other classes will do relatively less damage to enemies. This also sounds un-fun for other players. Unless Larian also buffs all other classes, but then we enter an arms race and Larian will introduce even more (likely unbalanced) homebrew to achieve this.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 19/10/21 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
One metamagic is unlikely to significantly spoil the game, especially as you said any class can.
This means that the game will be specially designed with the possibility of casting additional spells.
There's really only 2 ways to account for player sorcerers being able to cast two leveled-spells in the same turn:
1.) Do nothing, allowing the sorcerer to start out a fight by nuking enemies and doing loads of damage/CC/battlefield control. They can do this every fight and at level 6+ - if it somehow gets back to their turn - they'll be able to do it again (because long resting is trivial). This sounds un-fun for other players.
2.) Adjust enemy HP/STs/AC to account for the sorcerer's ~doubled damage. The sorcerer won't be able to have such a drastic effect on their turn, but now other classes will do relatively less damage to enemies. This also sounds un-fun for other players. Unless Larian also buffs all other classes, but then we enter an arms race and Larian will introduce even more (likely unbalanced) homebrew to achieve this.


In most of these cases, a proper match design is enough. If the enemies aren't grouped, the fireball will do nothing.
There is no chance that the fireball will retain a 6-meter area of effect when the range is heavily scaled down.
I bet it will be 3 meters maximum in the game, which makes fireball spam much less effective.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Sorcerer - Quicken Spell an issue - 19/10/21 09:48 PM
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
In most of these cases, a proper match design is enough. If the enemies aren't grouped, the fireball will do nothing.
There is no chance that the fireball will retain a 6-meter area of effect when the range is heavily scaled down.
I bet it will be 3 meters maximum in the game, which makes fireball spam much less effective.
There's no reason to restrict this to fireball. Single/individual target damaging spells (scorching ray, blight), single(upcasting to multi)-target control spells (Blindness/Deafness, Hold Monster), AoE spells with different areas (Lightning bolt, Cone of Cold), all of these are quicken-able and can be used instead of/in addition to fireball. They won't do as much damage as fireball+fireball will against a cluster of enemies, but they'll still have a massive effect on enemies.

I can't comment on the size of fireball in BG3. One the one hand, many spells' ranges have been significantly decreased. On the other, Larian likes surfaces and fireball has the potential to create a big surface.
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