Larian Studios
Posted By: Kethlar Mage Hand - 11/11/21 10:30 AM
In it's current state, it's not really much use, but this spell could be very useful if Larian could add some functionality to what the hand can do:

Combat Abilities:
Unarmed Strike: [Implemented] Currently deals 0+1 damage or 1 damage. Would be nice if this improved to 1-3.
Trip or Topple: [Suggested] Allow the hand to attempt to trip or topple an enemy to create prone for 1 round.
Grapple: [Suggested] Allow the hand to attempt to grapple an opponent, a successful grapple reduces speed and AC and attack by -1 for 1 round.
Shove: [Implemented] Would be nice to indicate in the tip what the strength of the hand uses. I've only tried shoving once or twice unsuccessfully.
Throw: [Implemented] Issue here is since the hand can't pickup anything, it doesn't have anything to throw so useless.

Other Abilities:
Pick Up Item: [Suggested] Allow the hand to pick up and carry 1 item up to 2 pounds in weight. This would allow the hand to pickup and carry an item and optionally throw it.
Drop: [Suggested] Allow the hand to safely drop the carried item or give it to the MC or party NPC.
Open: [Suggested] Allow the hand to open doors and containers that are not locked.
Interaction: [Suggested] Allow the hand to move levers, turn wheels, press buttons, basically simple actions.

I'm hoping that Larian will add some of the above abilities because the spell seems pretty useless in it's current state.

Thoughts?
Posted By: Zarna Re: Mage Hand - 11/11/21 11:59 AM
It is completely useless currently. Being able to shove with Mage Hand is just stupid and picking up items is the most basic use for it and should have been implemented from the start.

Mage Hand:
"A spectral, floating hand appears at a point you choose within range. The hand lasts for the duration or until you dismiss it as an action. The hand vanishes if it is ever more than 30 feet away from you or if you cast this spell again.

You can use your action to control the hand. You can use the hand to manipulate an object, open an unlocked door or container, stow or retrieve an item from an open container, or pour the contents out of a vial. You can move the hand up to 30 feet each time you use it.

The hand can’t attack, activate magical items, or carry more than 10 pounds."

Arcane Tricksters get a bit more:
"Starting at 3rd level, when you cast Mage Hand, you can make the spectral hand invisible, and you can perform the following additional tasks with it:

You can stow one object the hand is holding in a container worn or carried by another creature.
You can retrieve an object in a container worn or carried by another creature.
You can use thieves' tools to pick locks and disarm traps at range.
You can perform one of these tasks without being noticed by a creature if you succeed on a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check contested by the creature's Wisdom (Perception) check.

In addition, you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to control the hand."

It is only a cantrip, not a summoned extra party member. Out of your combat suggestions, the only one I think would make any sense would be indirectly tripping someone. This would require a series of actions to set up and usable rope though and the mage hand would be used to pull the rope, maybe tightening a noose around someone's leg or clotheslining someone. Even that might be pushing it a bit but I could see it working for a video game (also some DMs will allow this sort of thing without debating force and weight and all that math stuff.)
Posted By: Kethlar Re: Mage Hand - 11/11/21 01:06 PM
My reason behind trip is that the hand could grab a foot and cause a prone condition. As to grapple, the hand could grab a arm and hinder that arm from moving or a grab a leg and hamper movement. Either seem like logical extensions for combat if unarmed strike is allowed.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Mage Hand - 11/11/21 01:10 PM
There is more things that should be changed acording to Mages Hand ...

First of all i would like to point out that this Cantrip have duration ... and yes i know its suppose to have duration in tabletop too ... but i really dont see the reason, nor any gameplay-wise benefit from that, so i dare to say this should be changed to "as long as you keep concentration".

Second, hand (as far as i know) is able to fly as far from its caster as it manages during its minute existence ...
That should on the oposite being changed back to tabletop style, with adding maximum range.

And last, but probably most importantly ... hand (and honestly even Magic Familliars, and most summons in general) should not be threated as self-concious followers ...
Since this is only magical construct that Caster controls by his own mind hand should:
1) Have its initiative roll ALLWAYS tied to its caster ...
2) Use its caster Actions and Bonus actions ... practicaly working as exactly that what is is, pro-longed hand of its caster.
3) If you would demand some combat usage ... i gues the best you could get is delivering Casters touch-spells (wich is something i really hope familiars will get) ... i believe that is something Mage Hand should not do either, but i would say it seems logical, if Wizard is able to give his enemy Shocking Grasp through his Toad minion, he should also be able to give his enemy Shocking Grasp through his Mage Hand.

Originally Posted by Kethlar
Unarmed Strike: [Implemented] Currently deals 0+1 damage or 1 damage. Would be nice if this improved to 1-3.
Why? Or based on what?
I mean what would be logic behind such change? I believe you certainly dont want to tell us that hand have +2 Strength modifier, do you? laugh

As far as i know this thing is not even suppose to attack by itself, so even this damage is allready buffed.

Originally Posted by Kethlar
Trip or Topple: [Suggested] Allow the hand to attempt to trip or topple an enemy to create prone for 1 round.
I like this idea ... kinda ...
But chances should be incredibly small.

Originally Posted by Kethlar
Grapple: [Suggested] Allow the hand to attempt to grapple an opponent, a successful grapple reduces speed and AC and attack by -1 for 1 round.
Seems a little too powerfull ...
Reducing 3 stats seems too much to me. :-/

I would have no problem with hand grapling either leg, to reduce movement speed, or hand, to reduce AC ... both should be relatively easy o shake (like dif 5 or 7) and hand should be destroyed if saving throw will pass.

Originally Posted by Kethlar
Shove: [Implemented] Would be nice to indicate in the tip what the strength of the hand uses. I've only tried shoving once or twice unsuccessfully.
Isnt there percentual chance of sucess for shoving? O_o

Originally Posted by Kethlar
Throw: [Implemented] Issue here is since the hand can't pickup anything, it doesn't have anything to throw so useless.
While i would see no problem with Mage Hand accesing Wizards own inventory ... it should not work other way around tho. :-/

Also i have to disagree here, since Mage Hand still can throw around all objects that are just there around you ... i usualy throw crates and weapons that lay on the ground. smile

Originally Posted by Kethlar
Pick Up Item: [Suggested] Allow the hand to pick up and carry 1 item up to 2 pounds in weight. This would allow the hand to pickup and carry an item and optionally throw it.
It allready can throw items on the ground ...
It would be nice if it could also hold them and bring them to the mage.

Originally Posted by Kethlar
Drop: [Suggested] Allow the hand to safely drop the carried item or give it to the MC or party NPC.
+1

Originally Posted by Kethlar
Open: [Suggested] Allow the hand to open doors and containers that are not locked.
+1

Originally Posted by Kethlar
Interaction: [Suggested] Allow the hand to move levers, turn wheels, press buttons, basically simple actions.
+1 And "pour the contents out of a vial". wink
Posted By: Kethlar Re: Mage Hand - 11/11/21 01:43 PM
Quote
Originally Posted by Kethlar
Unarmed Strike: [Implemented] Currently deals 0+1 damage or 1 damage. Would be nice if this improved to 1-3.
Why? Or based on what?
I mean what would be logic behind such change? I believe you certainly dont want to tell us that hand have +2 Strength modifier, do you? laugh

Well, since the hand isn't supposed to be used in combat, 1 point of damage seems pretty worthless, 1 to 3 seemed more useful but it's not based on anything. DMs can change rules as they wish, so I assume Larian can do the same.

As far as Grapple goes, I didn't mean to infer that all three stats would be affected. You would choose where the hand grappled, leg effects movement, weapon hand effects attack, shield hand effects A/C. Only lasts one round if the saving throw succeeds.

I like the idea that the hand would be an extension of the mage's hand allowing touch spells to be used through it. +1

I did not know that the hand could pickup and throw something. Never tried it mostly because I only tried using the hand a couple of times and it didn't work the way I suspected. Thanks for the reply on this.

Mostly though, this was just a discussion topic on a spell that is more useful in the tabletop game than how it is currently implemented in the EA. I'm assuming that someone with Larian scans these topics and maybe take back a suggestion or two.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Mage Hand - 11/11/21 01:55 PM
Also i just remembered ...
The hand is flying, it would be great to allow it hower over chasms, abyss, holes and cracks ... like when you get to that place, where Tiefling kids are hiding ... there is chest across the chasm ... you can get Mage Hand there ... but the only way to get chest back to you is to throw it and hope it will not break.
(usualy it does ... and funy enough, when it does, you loose the loot, since the gem that was inside was too fragile laugh )

So if the Hand could hower over that chasm while holding the chest ... that would be awesome. :3

Originally Posted by Kethlar
Well, since the hand isn't supposed to be used in combat, 1 point of damage seems pretty worthless
This seems self-explanatory to me ...
"Im using in combat something that is not supposed to be used in combat ... and it feels worthless when used in combat" ...
Maaaaaayyyyybeeeee it have something to do with the fact that its not supposed to be used in combat? laugh
Posted By: PrivateRaccoon Re: Mage Hand - 11/11/21 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Kethlar
Well, since the hand isn't supposed to be used in combat, 1 point of damage seems pretty worthless
This seems self-explanatory to me ...
"Im using in combat something that is not supposed to be used in combat ... and it feels worthless when used in combat" ...
Maaaaaayyyyybeeeee it have something to do with the fact that its not supposed to be used in combat? laugh

Rag, isn't that a bit condescending? If Larian never intended for it to be used in combat(and I agree, they shouldn't) then why did they make it usable in combat? What other use does the hand's attack option have? Kethlar obviously expanded his idea on a function that Larian has already implemented. So maaaaayyyyybeeeee you can tune down your responses a bit. You seem to be the only one that find them witty anyway.
Posted By: Kethlar Re: Mage Hand - 11/11/21 03:49 PM
Hey Rag, you can get to that chest by having Laezel jump over to it, or use the jump spell (or misty step). That's how I always get it.

@PrivateRaccoon smile
Posted By: PrivateRaccoon Re: Mage Hand - 11/11/21 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
(and honestly even Magic Familliars, and most summons in general) should not be threated as self-concious followers ...

I also don't agree with you here. Sure, a familiar or other summon is bound by magic to follow its masters command. But a familiar is not some lifeless thing. It's a spirit, with its own individuality. It's a person. When not given a direct command from its master, it is free to move and think and act within the bounds of the summoning spell. An animated body though would be more in lines with what you're suggesting.
Posted By: PrivateRaccoon Re: Mage Hand - 11/11/21 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by Kethlar
Hey Rag, you can get to that chest by having Laezel jump over to it, or use the jump spell (or misty step). That's how I always get it.

@PrivateRaccoon smile

I do believe he knows that but he suggested another option to get it which would be more in line with the intended use of Mage Hand in accordance with the TT rules.
Posted By: Soul-Scar Re: Mage Hand - 11/11/21 04:13 PM
The arcane trickster mage hand of ....."a bunch of random letters". Has a tonne more functionality like pickpocket, disarm and some other stuff I cannot remember and is also invis so can do sneaky really well too. I think it can carry 10lbs also. Currently not working as intended in BG3 as far as I am aware I tired it in patch 2-3 and it was trash.
Posted By: JandK Re: Mage Hand - 11/11/21 04:30 PM
I'd just like for the hand to have an inventory that can support up to ten pounds. That way the hand can pick things up and transfer them and such.

And to be able to interact with the environment. Opening chests, opening doors, closing doors, pulling levers, pushing buttons. Basic stuff you'd assume the hand can do.

I'd also like the hand to have the "fly" ability since it floats.

*

Other than that, I don't care so much about all the combat stuff. Whatever's interesting and balanced is fine with me.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Mage Hand - 11/11/21 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
If Larian never intended for it to be used in combat(and I agree, they shouldn't) then why did they make it usable in combat?
It allways have ben usable in combat ... and it still have its uses in combat, it simply should not attack, thats it. smile

Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
What other use does the hand's attack option have?
Well ... concidering DnD Tabletop rule for this spell:
You can use the hand to manipulate an object, open an unlocked door or container, stow or retrieve an item from an open container, or pour the contents out of a vial.
+ From Larian ... shove. laugh

In my opinion, that is still pretty usefull spell in combat ...


Originally Posted by Kethlar
Hey Rag, you can get to that chest by having Laezel jump over to it, or use the jump spell (or misty step). That's how I always get it.
Im aware. smile
The point of using Mage Hand was to retrieve it without spending two lvl 2 spellslots to misty step there anc back ... or without spending ability you can use once per rest, and wich you will need a little later (down by the idol). laugh

Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
I also don't agree with you here. Sure, a familiar or other summon is bound by magic to follow its masters command. But a familiar is not some lifeless thing. It's a spirit, with its own individuality. It's a person. When not given a direct command from its master, it is free to move and think and act within the bounds of the summoning spell. An animated body though would be more in lines with what you're suggesting.
okey
Posted By: Soul-Scar Re: Mage Hand - 11/11/21 04:43 PM
The description of the generic mage hand in the phb does indeed say you can interact with anything physical and is basically an extension of your hand in every way so you can carry a "thing" of 10lb I am pretty certain. It is however VERY obvious to an observer that the mage hand is coming from the caster as it looks like a large wispy magic extention going from the caster to the hands destination. It is incapable of performing complex actions like the arcane trickster. Mage hand should be more useful than it is currently.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Mage Hand - 11/11/21 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
First of all i would like to point out that this Cantrip have duration ... and yes i know its suppose to have duration in tabletop too ... but i really dont see the reason, nor any gameplay-wise benefit from that, so i dare to say this should be changed to "as long as you keep concentration"
Mage Hand shouldn't require concentration at all.

Mage Hand should be useful for picking up or interacting with items at a distance. Obviously it should be able to float over chasms.

It's ~fine for Mage Hand to have combat abilities AS LONG AS it takes your action to control the hand. Otherwise, for the cost of a cantrip, you're effectively getting an entire additional turn. It's a cantrip; it shouldn't be that powerful. Especially given how OP Shove is in BG3 with instadeath pits.

If it doesn't require your action, then the hand (which can only pick up things < 10 lbs) should really only be able to handle items or maybe do an unarmed strike for 1 damage. And in this case it should require concentration for balance purposes, given that you're no longer spending an action to make it do things.
Posted By: Dexai Re: Mage Hand - 11/11/21 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by Soul-Scar
The arcane trickster mage hand of ....."a bunch of random letters".

Legerdemain. Literally meaning "light of hand" (from leger de main, medieval french). Synonymous with "sleight of hand".

Yeah no I didn't know that you made me look it up so I thought I'd share wink
Posted By: PrivateRaccoon Re: Mage Hand - 11/11/21 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
What other use does the hand's attack option have?
Well ... concidering DnD Tabletop rule for this spell:
You can use the hand to manipulate an object, open an unlocked door or container, stow or retrieve an item from an open container, or pour the contents out of a vial.
+ From Larian ... shove. laugh

In my opinion, that is still pretty usefull spell in combat ...

Ok, let me clarify, What other use does Unarmed Strike have except in combat? That was the implementation from Larian that Kethlar expanded his idea upon. The idea you ridiculed with your sarcastic response. Not what use Mage hand has according to the PHB. Not shove. Unarmored Strike, one of the current options available to the hand during its action phase.

If you think that it shouldn't have Unarmored strike, that's fine. I agree with you. But its there, and you basically told Kethlar he shouldn't use it because that's not what Mage hand is for. You could have just gone with, that, instead of making strike more useful, it could be removed altogether. Which you also did. In your first response. And then, when Kethlar explained his reasoning, you, as usual, had to act like a douche, thinking you were witty.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Mage Hand - 11/11/21 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Mage Hand shouldn't require concentration at all.
Yeah, my misstake ... poor wording. :-/
I mean until canceled.

Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
But its there, and you basically told Kethlar he shouldn't use it because that's not what Mage hand is for.
Nah ...
I stated that it shouldnt even do that ... instead it does something, but it sucks ...
And while it sucks, im personaly against it being better ... bcs even if it sucks, its still better than it should be. wink

And it seems reasonable to me that it sucks, since its not supposed to be used this way. wink
That is why i said it sucks, bcs its suppose to suck. wink

Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
you, as usual, had to act like a douche, thinking you were witty.
I mean its nice that you wish to stand up for someone. smile
It certainly grade(?) you up ... but if i can sugest you something, in the future, when you will do that again ... try to avoid the behavior you blame others for. smile

That is all i shall say on this matter, if you wish to continue. wink
Posted By: Soul-Scar Re: Mage Hand - 11/11/21 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by Dexai
Originally Posted by Soul-Scar
The arcane trickster mage hand of ....."a bunch of random letters".

Legerdemain. Literally meaning "light of hand" (from leger de main, medieval french). Synonymous with "sleight of hand".

Yeah no I didn't know that you made me look it up so I thought I'd share wink

Lol, I just couldn't remember the spelling thanks mate.
Posted By: BROttorney Re: Mage Hand - 25/11/21 03:33 AM
Honestly I don't really care if they never give it any further combat uses, the fact that it can shove is plenty. What it really needs is exploring uses. It needs to be able to trigger traps from afar, or work levers, turn handles, etc. That's exactly what it's for. The fact it it can't operate the crane/platform controls in Grymforge, or the lava wheel during the Grym boss fight is ridiculous! That's EXACTLY what it's supposed to be used for. I can't express how frustrating it was to put my party on the moving platform, cast mage hand and have it not able to do anything for me.

Mage hand should ABSOLUTELY be able to trivialize some puzzles throughout the game.
Posted By: Agile Dog Re: Mage Hand - 25/11/21 07:44 AM
considering the spell is a cantrip and eventually we may see the bigby hand spells which doo allow for grapple, attacks hold and shove depending on the variation there is no need for the cantrip to have these abilities.

As far as opening things, retrieving items etc....make sense including throwing/pouring flask contents in combat or pre-combat. Admittedly the only time have used this was with the mushroom picker.
Posted By: Sigi98 Re: Mage Hand - 14/01/22 03:26 PM
Just want to add my opinion on the current implementation of mage hand here, instead of creating a new thread:

I don't mind much that the hand can do things like shove people, which it cannot do per D&D rules as far as I know, although it is a cantrip, and shoving is very powrful at the moment because of the pronounced verticality of the game. Therefore mage hand shoving might be a little powerful? Food for thought.

I am however very disappointed that the hand cannot currently do the things it is mostly used for in actual tabletop sessions: opening chests and crates, and pulling levers. I really hope this will be changed, as it would add a lot in terms of options to creatively solve problems (e.g. opening trapped chests).

Originally Posted by BROttorney
The fact it it can't operate the crane/platform controls in Grymforge, or the lava wheel during the Grym boss fight is ridiculous!

these are great examples!
Posted By: WebSpyder Re: Mage Hand - 14/01/22 07:44 PM
Why are there things that the mage hand can't reach? This makes zero sense unless what you're trying to reach is more than 30 feet from the caster. The hand floats! Let it do what it is meant to do. Honestly I would be happy for them to remove the offensive abilities like unarmed strike and grapple as the spell was never intended for those purposes. It can literally only pick up things that weigh 10lbs or less RAW. That means it has less than a 1 STR. It specifies in the spell description that it can't attack or activate magic items but any "interact with object" action should be viable including containers, etc.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: Mage Hand - 14/01/22 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by WebSpyder
Why are there things that the mage hand can't reach? This makes zero sense unless what you're trying to reach is more than 30 feet from the caster. The hand floats! Let it do what it is meant to do. Honestly I would be happy for them to remove the offensive abilities like unarmed strike and grapple as the spell was never intended for those purposes. It can literally only pick up things that weigh 10lbs or less RAW. That means it has less than a 1 STR. It specifies in the spell description that it can't attack or activate magic items but any "interact with object" action should be viable including containers, etc.
+1 Mage Hand should be useful for interacting with objects, especially distant ones.

This is somewhat related to the Fly issue in BG3, but not exactly the same. With a flying character, players would expect to be able to manually move their characters in 3D which is a hardish thing to program. But Mage Hand? Not really. If it needs to elevate to pick up an item, the game can take care of that by moving the Mage Hand in a direct line (if possible) to the item and then back. I would guess that this is much easier to code than full 3D maneuverability by the player. Basically turn it into a slow projectile, pick up item, bring mage hand back, and deposit item in character's inventory.

You know what, Larian can even leave in its ability to attack/shove at this point. -1 STR is a -5 modifier, so sure it can make an attack/shove with a -5 bonus, at the cost of your Action of course.
Posted By: Stabbey Re: Mage Hand - 18/01/22 05:22 AM
I do not agree with the suggestion of making Mage Hand concentration. There are already a lot of other spells which require concentration. Even with the so-called combat applications which it really should not have in the first place, it's not powerful enough to deserve concentration. I would sooner get rid of all the combat applications to it before making it concentration, and I think that removing the combat stuff should probably be done anyway.

I do agree with the maximum range being from the caster, not as far as it can fly in one minute. It's not a scout.

In combat, the Mage Hand should have the same initiative as the caster. It should only be usable if the caster has a bonus action, and using the bonus action consumes the mage's bonus action. Obviously the programming side of that would be tricky to implement.

I think Mage Hand should have an Inventory which can hold exactly one item and that can weigh no more than what, 5-10 pounds at most. This lets you pick up a thing and move it. If the hand ends, the item drops on the nearest valid solid surface to the hand's last position (so you can't lose quest items into bottomless pits.)
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Mage Hand - 18/01/22 08:14 AM
What do you mean "making" it require concentration?
It does allready. :-/

About implementation ...
From my limited knowledge of coding i dare to say that there ahould be little difference between hand using its own or its owner action or bonus actions ...
The problem here would be to explain this to new player.
I mean yes there are tooltips but still some pepple will probably be confused. smirk

Agreed on initiative but that should aply on any and every companion without its own mind. In my opinion at least.

I like the idea with its own inventory too ...
I just wonder if carry weight should be the only atribute here ... i mean it seems weird to imagine Mage Hand floating around with 4 Leather Armors just bcs they "technicaly" weight less than 10 ... doesnt it?
I think it should also ne limited with single slot.
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