Larian Studios
Posted By: Tuco BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/10/20 07:32 PM
Mod edit: previous title; "The way Larian manages party movement is dreadful"


Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic.

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.


There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.

I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?
Posted By: Warlocke Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/10/20 07:35 PM
I would prefer a more traditional way of selecting characters. I had one situation where I jumped somewhere with my character and my companions went running off to meet me there on foot, immediately got into combat, and I had to reload. Dragging and selecting would be much better.
Posted By: UnderworldHades Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/10/20 07:37 PM
I kind of like it, but honestly its not that great when combat is about to start. Party members just don't stick close enough or are doing random shit because i can't control all 4 by selecting them all. Yes, i definitely want shadowheart ALL the way in the back where it takes her 2 turns to even get close enough to do anything. The Ai and its pathfinding is dreadful currently.
Posted By: ElComunista Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/10/20 07:41 PM
i'd prefer the classic system myself.
Posted By: Wormerine Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/10/20 07:57 PM
Didn't play BG3 myself, but I found controls in D:OS to be rather frustrating. More fiddly, and less precise then the old system. I see it mostly as the system being designed around controlling a single character, rather then the whole party - a theme that resonates throughout the D:OSs design.
Posted By: Akari Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/10/20 08:15 PM
I have to say that you are right, is one of the more frustrating things in the game.

I do understand the way larian controls movement, and it works great when you can individually manage single members without no one following, but i will love so much, and will help so much if in adition to the DOS movement we had a select all/drag/shift click, plus formations ...

Also ... if you are pathing automatically and see me jump, jump, dont walk around
If you see me stealth, stealth, dont make me click steall in every single character, summon, familiar, friend .... (Yo gave me the option to disconect a party member and make the others dont follow, thats enought if i want to stealth only one), but if they move in a group, they should stealth in a group.

Funny d&d scene

1 character: "lets go in stealth"
its two friends: "naaa, you stealth we go with you walking normaly while we sing"

PD: i have a document 3 pages of notes that i have to post after my 12 hours playing XD
Posted By: Baraz Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/10/20 08:25 PM
I just would like characters, when out of combat, to automatically avoid spots that cause damage (fire/brine/acid...) and holes.

I also agree a simple system to select characters to move is needed instead of the obscure "drag portrait out of group". They could also stop the auto-follow when a character is not selected.
Posted By: Gabriel Farishta Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/10/20 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by Baraz
I just would like characters, when out of combat, to automatically avoid spots that cause damage (fire/brine/acid...) and holes.

I also agree a simple system to select characters to move is needed instead of the obscure "drag portrait out of group". They could also stop the auto-follow when a character is not selected.


Just a minor comment on this. I noticed that no group member will follow a sneaking character. This presents a (rather cumbersome) work-around: sneak everyone into position one-by-one...
Posted By: Jebble Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/10/20 09:37 PM
The classic system is so much better. I have always found the DOS party movement to be very clunky.
Posted By: Meeshe Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/10/20 10:52 PM
Party Formations would go a long way to fixing the issues with the party's movement. but yeah, so many times they run through fire, or goo, or whatever is everywhere on the ground (but thats another different issue) or even just when a fight begins.
Posted By: Willyto Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/10/20 11:23 PM
I absolutely agree with the OP. Everything he mentioned is just right.

Something as important as characters and party control can't be allowed to be this bad. My guess is that this is done so people who play with a pad can play casually without nothing to worry about but it's not a good way for anyone playing RPG on PC with a keyboard and mouse. The fact that you can't even select your whole party with the mouse dragging a square over them or select a party formation with your melee characters in front and the healers or ranged in the back is awful. This party movement triggers a lot of traps and puts your party in danger in some situations.

I would like to see any explanation by Larian that justifies this.
Posted By: RumRunner151 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/10/20 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by Baraz
I just would like characters, when out of combat, to automatically avoid spots that cause damage (fire/brine/acid...) and holes.

This is my issue. The rest is workable if not ideal.

Posted By: Claudio_420 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 01:04 AM
I agree with the OP.
If it cannot be changed, then at least fix the poor AI for the companions
Posted By: tangelo1023 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 02:00 AM
I'm genuinely confused. Isn't the "control single character and have party follow" method how every 3d crpg has done things? That's how it was in NWN, NWN2, and Dragon Age Origins. This isn't some radical thing that Larian introduced with DOS1. It's a standard for 3d crpgs.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 02:10 AM
+1 to op. I'm having lots of fun but this must change.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 02:19 AM
Originally Posted by tangelo1023
I'm genuinely confused. Isn't the "control single character and have party follow" method how every 3d crpg has done things? That's how it was in NWN, NWN2, and Dragon Age Origins. This isn't some radical thing that Larian introduced with DOS1. It's a standard for 3d crpgs.

Well, it's quite interesting to me that you managed to name a bunch of games that did party control worse than the examples I mentioned.

Still, DOS 1, 2 and this BG3 are somehow managing to be the absolute worst of the entire list, which is almost impressive.

Honestly, I'd be rather impressed with most of what I'm seeing of this BG3 in most aspects, but this one is a Larian trademark I could GLADLY do without.
Especially because unlike other limitations (i.e. a four men party comes to mind) it's not even a trade-off with meaningful pros and cons. It's straight up worse than the alternative from whatever angle one may watch at it.









Posted By: tangelo1023 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 02:35 AM
I mentioned those games because they are also 3d crpgs unlike the games that you have listed. This isn't anything innovative. With the pre-rendered 2d engines of the games that you have listed, having a "select all" party movement would be the default. With a 3d engine, a "select all" option would play just like it does now with the same AI pathfinding issues. Simultaneously controlling all 4 characters in a 3d game would still have the same issues that you're describing.

That's why I'm asking what you would offer as a possible solution to this. From what you're describing, the problem is with the AI. Not the movement system itself.
Posted By: Doomlord Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 02:52 AM
I agree, its so bad I have to assume they are still working on this, There is no option that I have found that gives me the leader commands to my companions like stay so far away, or search traps, or blast away. There is nothing.
Posted By: Baraz Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 03:04 AM
I noticed something : my familiar avoids dangerous spots properly it seems.

So I am guessing companion pathing will be fixed soon.
( still remains making controlling party movement simple )
Posted By: mithril Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 03:48 AM
Yes the movement and control of the party is horrific. Want to sneak with one party member to scout, its difficult. Need to split the party for a moment, good luck. Formations, nope. In a tactical turn based combat game position is important. Scouting, setting up ambushes, etc. It also hurts when a fight is over and the other party members want to run across active fire, acid, and other hazards.
Posted By: joste89 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 06:45 AM
+1, my party took the easy way when i wanted them to go back, opening a door and exposing themselves to the enemy - starting a fight i didn't want. Also they sometimes run into fire etc. without me wanting it.
Posted By: Vynticator Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 06:57 AM
Agree, the effort it takes to set up an ambush is considerable. Party members wandering off and blundering into combat.

Stealth is also weird. If you start a fight with everyone in stealth, you have to manually activate them in the initiative sequence, otherwise they are skipped by default. That's clumsy. Most people are going to want to get the drop on their foes to start a fight if possible. The game makes that very awkward.
Posted By: Jermz238 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 07:04 AM
Originally Posted by RumRunner151
Originally Posted by Baraz
I just would like characters, when out of combat, to automatically avoid spots that cause damage (fire/brine/acid...) and holes.

This is my issue. The rest is workable if not ideal.



this! I had just finished a rough fight and a couple of my characters were low hp. I start moving on and the two walk into the fire and are downed. I then Help them up and they immediately take damage and drop again. repeat ad nauseum, until I let them die and have to rez them and put their bodies on safe ground. Can we at least get a few seconds to get out of the hazard after being helped up? in tabletop you could drag a party member out of danger and then heal.
Posted By: Sestuna Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 07:06 AM
+1
Posted By: Minsc1122 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 09:26 AM
"The way Larian manages party movement is dreaful." It is.... I wonder why they havent changed this before.... I disliked this in divinity as well.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 09:27 AM
Originally Posted by Vynticator
Agree, the effort it takes to set up an ambush is considerable. Party members wandering off and blundering into combat.

Stealth is also weird. If you start a fight with everyone in stealth, you have to manually activate them in the initiative sequence, otherwise they are skipped by default. That's clumsy. Most people are going to want to get the drop on their foes to start a fight if possible. The game makes that very awkward.

Yeah, there's that too.
I can sort of guess why they did it from a co-op point of view, but it seems to work more often against you than in your favor.
Posted By: someoneinatree Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 09:54 AM
Even in multiplayer though, all characters should be acting in initiative once a surprise round starts, even if they’re still stealthed. It’s weird that stealthed characters stay out of initiative and can basically do all kinds of weird things while their companions are stuck in a drawn-out six seconds
Posted By: Pantoufle Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 11:13 AM
I agree with the arguments listed in the 1st post.

I requested the same thing in another topic.

So +1
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 11:15 AM
Originally Posted by someoneinatree
Even in multiplayer though, all characters should be acting in initiative once a surprise round starts, even if they’re still stealthed. It’s weird that stealthed characters stay out of initiative and can basically do all kinds of weird things while their companions are stuck in a drawn-out six seconds


Especially considering that you can pretty much re-stealth every round right now if you are positioned correctly, completely breaking the initiative system...
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by Pantoufle
I agree with the arguments listed in the 1st post.

I requested the same thing in another topic.

So +1

I probably missed it, but if you have additional arguments to throw on top of the pile feel free to copy-paste your old post here.

Posted By: Wormerine Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 12:48 PM
Originally Posted by tangelo1023
I'm genuinely confused. Isn't the "control single character and have party follow" method how every 3d crpg has done things? That's how it was in NWN, NWN2, and Dragon Age Origins.

I can't quite remember NWN2 control scheme,. But NWN and DA:O weren't really party games - NWN you controlled a single character and in DA it was the same - and I am pretty sure there was a more classical control style when going into tactical view. Either way, none of those games required anything more sophisticated - exploration was very basic and environment irrelevant.

D:OSs (and BG3 from what I have seen) isn't like that - and it requires a fine micromanagement of your party members. Default Larian system simply isn't sufficient for it. Its not that it doesn't allow for fine control, but it far more clumsy when played that way - and I found it far easier to commit errors (classics being stealthing someone and forgetting to decouple him from companions so they rush to him once unstealthed or leaving someone behind).
Posted By: Albi Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 12:58 PM
I've also opened a thread in regard to this http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=680949#Post680949
Posted By: RobinLefebvre Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 12:58 PM
I am not going to add much to the conversation, the above points and the initial comments make sense. There are better ways to manage your party's positions and movements out there that could be implemented.

I've found that not attaching party members together works best whenever there is the slightest hint of combat. But indeed having the 4 characters attached is cause for a lot of moments between immersion-breaking things up to rage-enducing TPK. The first time Gale died on me was because of some random move he'd made when attaching-detaching... Which is a shame given the work put into his death narratively. Same thing for poor old Vampire, blindly following me into water at low HP...

This would also come down as a side effect of current camera configurations, which might play a role in how we move around the game... Don't know.


Posted By: jonn Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 01:19 PM
Perhaps the pathfinding AI could be linked to each characters abilities - for example, if they are athletic then take the most direct route over difficult terrain, if they have low wisdom / perception then they blunder straight through the twisting vines etc.

Posted By: kanisatha Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 01:48 PM
+1
Posted By: GamerSerg Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 01:50 PM
Sadly this is another example of Larian insisting on sticking with what they did in Divinity. It's awful but they won't change it because it is a carryover from divinity. The "chain" thing where you have to pull a portrait away from the others to separate them before you can move one person is so annoying. Then you have to put them back again. Why can't we just click and drag a box around the party to group them back together? Every other game lets you just click on the character and tell them where to go. Also not having formations is frustrating. There are a lot of great things in this game but by far the biggest drawback is that they just built on top of divinity systems good or bad.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 03:54 PM
I'm not really trying to shit on Larian. There's a lot of good in the "Original Sin DNA".
Some stuff is frankly even a net improvement over anything Baldur's Gate ever did, and I say this as someone who was almost obsessed with the franchise for 20 years.
Party movement is not one of these.
Posted By: Anfindel Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/10/20 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by Baraz
I just would like characters, when out of combat, to automatically avoid spots that cause damage (fire/brine/acid...) and holes.

I also agree a simple system to select characters to move is needed instead of the obscure "drag portrait out of group". They could also stop the auto-follow when a character is not selected.


Agreed. Unless I'm missing something, I am unable to see these environmental hot spots to even try avoiding them - and if I could, I would have to split the group into 4 and individually move each one along the desired path, a tedious an unnecessary annoyance. While someone might trip or stumble into a fire or pool of acid during a battle, once battle is finished, they would have enough common sense to walk around these danger zones and not dance through them.


Posted By: clavis Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 09/10/20 12:07 AM
Prolly already been said but anywho, I dislike the whole chain gang thing. we are not criminals!! We are okay some of us may or may not be, but we're not imprisoned the tadpool is.

Keep the whole ability to move characters on the lower left screen, first one is the leader, second is next, third is after that, fourth is the last person. There a simple formation.

Chain gang Moridains beard add a button or ability to right click on a portrait and an option to remove from group. Then when you want to readd them just right click, add to group option.

Formations are not really needed imo, but they will add more to the game then they will detract. You can keep it simple square, line, triangle, or diamond (cause you know there forever). Simple easy to use well maybe not the square. that may require something else like a formation screen to properly position. Though in truth any of them may.

I do like how smart the enemies are avoiding puddles for the most part, attacking my wizard first, trying to put my fighter/cleric to sleep round. It is far and above better then many or perhaps all other games out there. Now if we can only get my group to stop running into random vines, fires and other things. Some of that is on me but still, seriously Fang Elf would you stop!!
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 09/10/20 10:44 AM
The more I think about this topic, the less any possible excuse I can find to justify the solution Larian is currently using stands on its own.

I was thinking about the VERY popular request to expand party size to five or six members (one I'm all in favor of, by the way) and I couldn't help but realize that if they do that, it becomes even more imperative to address how the party as a whole is managed by the player.

It's sort of baffling that the system used here makes controlling FOUR men out of combat more slow and cumbersome than controlling six of them in other games of this genre.

At the very least, even if Larian decides once again to ignore how overwhelmingly against their system the feedback seems to be in both of these areas (flashbacks of the armor system and the botched itemization in DOS 2 come to mind) they should at bare minimum add a quick hotkey that unchains/relinks all party members in one single key press.
I know that "Press Space to turn base" is more or less covering the same function, but not exactly in a practical and quick way.
Posted By: Pantoufle Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 09/10/20 11:17 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Pantoufle
I agree with the arguments listed in the 1st post.

I requested the same thing in another topic.

So +1

I probably missed it, but if you have additional arguments to throw on top of the pile feel free to quote your copy-paste your old post here.



Nothing more to say. You're post give more arguments and is clearer than mine.
Posted By: Jun Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 09/10/20 12:15 PM
I agree wholeheartedly. I played DOS2 and really disliked how they handled controlling your party. (or lack of control i should say)
BG3 seems to have the exact same issue, causing my party members to:
-damage/debuff/kill themselves on terrains like fire/acid etc.
-trigger cutscenes, and failing throws in said cutscenes because they don't have the proper stats for it
-trigger combat miles away from the rest of the party
-falling into holes
-separating from the party and getting stuck somewhere (which i often don't notice and have to lead that single party member back to the rest)

I suspect people who haven't played DOS2 will struggle A LOT especially with the "chaining party members together to control them all" mechanic. I also think a good idea would be bringing back selecting multiple characters by holding shift and clicking their portraits, much more handy. Also as many others said, I hope Larian improves pathfinding for npcs! Besides avoiding traps, my party seems to enjoy picking roundabout ways to get to a destination, which imo should not happen!
Posted By: Albi Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 09/10/20 12:57 PM
Fact is this is one of the few games where you use the left mouse button to move your character/s. In other games you use the right mouse button for that and with the left button you can easily select them by clicking or dragging. In my opinion this isn't a big issue to solve. At least i think it isn't.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 09/10/20 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by Albi
Fact is this is one of the few games where you use the left mouse button to move your character/s. In other games you use the right mouse button for that and with the left button you can easily select them by clicking or dragging. In my opinion this isn't a big issue to solve. At least i think it isn't.

well, as you point yourself, that's not exactly an insurmountable obstacle.
Posted By: vitfast Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 09/10/20 05:56 PM
I agree. The DOS-system is kind of messy when it comes to controlling your party in real time mode.
Posted By: DistantStranger Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 09/10/20 06:03 PM
+1
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/10/20 12:02 AM
Originally Posted by vitfast
I agree. The DOS-system is kind of messy when it comes to controlling your party in real time mode.

It doesn't help that even their option to "switch to turn based at any any time" (beside being less than ideal when a couple of clicks should solve the issue with the traditional "RTS-like" controls) seems to take few full seconds before clicking in.
Which once again makes its use vaguely cumbersome.
Posted By: Charod Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/10/20 08:35 AM
fully agree, party movement is a pain...would prefer some option to select all and move them like that, drag mouse on screen to select all characters (the classic square) to move them or only select those characters I want by ctrl+click on their portrait.
also pathing is terrible, when following the main character, they should not stand in 'bad" stuff on the floor (like those entangle plants in the old ruins)

1 good thing I noticed is that when all 4 characters are linked and i go into stealth with 1, the rest of them stay put.
now if they could implement this when 1 char does a jump...that would be already better than running the long way around and getting into trouble somewheere else.
Posted By: Gray Ghost Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/10/20 08:39 AM
One other frustrating thing about this way of handling movement that I noticed yesterday; after combat ends all your charcters converge on the leader. And that can be very frustrating because downed characters still roll death saves after combat. So in the post battle confusion it's easy to suddenly realize that one of your party is dying and not have a character close enough to reach them. Which means spending a finite resource (gold or a revivify scroll) to bring them back.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/10/20 08:41 AM
It's totally a +1 for me.

I hate their system. Everyone is running everywhere in every surfaces...
It's a mess when you have to place your companions with the chain mecanics... You separate, then you group again... One, or two, or more characters... The leader is changing everytime,.......

Anyway everything was said in the topic.

Larian's way of doing this is bad.
It was in DoS and it definitely is in BG3.
Posted By: Raflamir Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/10/20 10:28 AM
I feel like when they were making D:OS, someone had this "really cool" idea for how to manage your party and never let it go.
Posted By: Gothfather Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/10/20 11:00 AM
Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by tangelo1023
I'm genuinely confused. Isn't the "control single character and have party follow" method how every 3d crpg has done things? That's how it was in NWN, NWN2, and Dragon Age Origins.

I can't quite remember NWN2 control scheme,. But NWN and DA:O weren't really party games - NWN you controlled a single character and in DA it was the same - and I am pretty sure there was a more classical control style when going into tactical view. Either way, none of those games required anything more sophisticated - exploration was very basic and environment irrelevant.

D:OSs (and BG3 from what I have seen) isn't like that - and it requires a fine micromanagement of your party members. Default Larian system simply isn't sufficient for it. Its not that it doesn't allow for fine control, but it far more clumsy when played that way - and I found it far easier to commit errors (classics being stealthing someone and forgetting to decouple him from companions so they rush to him once unstealthed or leaving someone behind).


Ahh I am pretty sure there was a 4 party system in DA:O. I know that I would control all members of the party to get combos to work in difficult combats, Sure against none boss fights just let the AI control the rest of the party but in boss fights on higher difficulties I was ALWAYS taking control of the entire party in tactical mode. maybe that was just me.

That said i think other games have handled party movement better than BG3. I think the system works great in combat but is clunky when transitioning into combat and clunky out of combat. i have been able to fine tune my party's tactical positions during combat with relative ease with the combat movement mechanics but outside of combat the OP is spot on. And as has been mentioned above the transition into combat is terrible.
Posted By: Minsc1122 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/10/20 11:01 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
It's totally a +1 for me.

I hate their system. Everyone is running everywhere in every surfaces...
It's a mess when you have to place your companions with the chain mecanics... You separate, then you group again... One, or two, or more characters... The leader is changing everytime,.......

Anyway everything was said in the topic.

Larian's way of doing this is bad.
It was in DoS and it definitely is in BG3.


Takes forever to regroup, even the first time Sven showed the game, he had problems with it. grin
Posted By: MasterRoo09 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/10/20 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic.

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.


There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.

I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?





You've read my mind!
I can't understand why Larian hasn't add party formations. I hate the fact that my main character (who's a wizard) goes always goes head first in battle. I can't reposition my wizard behind the group to minimize casualtize. You can do it in the Original BG games, why can't we do it for BG3? It seems like a simple fix.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/10/20 12:25 PM
Originally Posted by Minsc1122
[quote=Maximuuus]
Takes forever to regroup, even the first time Sven showed the game, he had problems with it. grin

When you struggle to deal with your own design, THAT should be your tell that maybe your system is not as brillant as you thought it would be on paper.
Posted By: Fuz77 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/10/20 01:55 PM
+1

Yeah, it's annoying. Especially when you play a rogue.
Posted By: theedge771 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/10/20 04:19 PM
+1 I was a forum noob and just posted my own thread about this but I'm in the same boat - leading my party everywhere with a squishy wizard??? and it totally sets you up for horrible fights when your party is constantly crammed into a straight line going into combat
Posted By: Minsc1122 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/10/20 07:01 PM
Is it really necessary for the characters to stop in one place, when I click on any ability in exploration mode?

In combat I understand, but when I explore it is a bit strange.
I think, that it would be nice if we could just give the commands more dynamically.

Clicking on portrait and casting buff is also something, that is not working.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/10/20 10:39 PM
Originally Posted by Minsc1122
Is it really necessary for the characters to stop in one place, when I click on any ability in exploration mode?

In combat I understand, but when I explore it is a bit strange.
I think, that it would be nice if we could just give the commands more dynamically.

Clicking on portrait and casting buff is also something, that is not working.

Not exactly related to the topic at hand, but... Isn't like a general D&D rule that spell can't ever be casted in movement?
Posted By: PumatsHole Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/10/20 10:44 PM
+1

This was also probably the most frustrating thing about DOS2.
Posted By: Minsc1122 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/10/20 07:08 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Minsc1122
Is it really necessary for the characters to stop in one place, when I click on any ability in exploration mode?

In combat I understand, but when I explore it is a bit strange.
I think, that it would be nice if we could just give the commands more dynamically.

Clicking on portrait and casting buff is also something, that is not working.

Not exactly related to the topic at hand, but... Isn't like a general D&D rule that spell can't ever be casted in movement?


In BG3 or DOS2 you have to stop doing anything else when you click spell icon, or when you click the jump icon.
Posted By: ngcwwolf Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/10/20 09:22 AM
Yup. Controls are clunky.
Posted By: YelloB Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/10/20 09:55 AM
I wholeheartedly agree with this post. It is probably the most annoying thing about this game at this point AND it is baffling to me they bothered coding this elaborate and cumbersome dragging method instead of a simple follow toggle key. At the start I was actually thinking you can't select characters by clicking the portraits at the lower left area because it required such a fast click to not drag the portraits that I was not able to change characters from there. If you drag a portrait even a tiny bit it will not switch to that character. Also kinda weird that you cant target abilities through portraits on as far as I could tell, although I may have only tried on the portraits in the initiative queue.

What i've done outside peaceful areas like the Druid grove, is to simply have all my characters not following each other and simply have my hand on number keys for characters and literally give move orders individually. It's far from ideal but a little LESS cumbersome than having follow on.

I have not read the full thread so someone might have already suggested these simple fixes that I would do.

1. Follow toggle key that enables/disables the full party follow. Hold down that toggle key and press the key or keys you have single party members bound to (in my case number keys) to toggle follow for those only. Additionally holding down follow key and clicking on portraits should do the same thing.

2.Give us a classic drag select and click method with formations.

I'd prefer having both options, especially if they implement WASD movement which I'm surprised wasn't in yet.
Posted By: VincentNZ Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/10/20 10:02 AM
Yeah it is really cumbersome, especially as one wrong click (exit sneaking) can turn all efforts to ashes. The results are pretty awful. As a slight workaround you can enter turn-based mode at any time to set-up and then initiate combat when everyone is in position. This is still time-consuming and clunky, though.
Posted By: Gnopi Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/10/20 10:04 AM
In addition to the "toggle follow key" and "drag select" suggestion, I think that a great benefit would be a formation key as alternative to the default blob that's far more susceptible to the pathfinding's whims.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/10/20 10:38 AM
Originally Posted by Gnopi
In addition to the "toggle follow key" and "drag select" suggestion, I think that a great benefit would be a formation key as alternative to the default blob that's far more susceptible to the pathfinding's whims.


So basically the very same BG2/PoE/Pathfinder system inspired by RTS that we all are asking for.
It already does all these things rather intuitively. Larian's system is a textbook case of a "solution" in search of a problem to solve that never existed.
Posted By: ImSuperCereal Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/10/20 11:23 AM
+1
I agree, maybe making a party formation option or better pathing will help.
Posted By: blazerules Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/10/20 12:24 PM
Party management is a mess in and of itself, try re-arranging the portraits. Yeah good luck, want to slot in #4 into #2? Not happening. Gotta disconnect the person from the party and THEN slot them into #2.

Clicking a party members portrait to select them? Gods. I tent to click on a party member and hit the 1 key to use potion for healing, half the time it doesnt select the person. I've had a couple instances where I had to double back and realize the character wasn't selected and its a bit annoying. Why clicking the portrait doesn't register as a selection more often than not is both clunky and annoying. F1-F4 options are nice to select, but they should be options not a requirement to have it be responsive.

I never understood why click drag selection didn't exist in DOS1 or DOS2, and that its absent in BG3 is even more confusing.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/10/20 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by blazerules
Party management is a mess in and of itself, try re-arranging the portraits. Yeah good luck, want to slot in #4 into #2? Not happening. Gotta disconnect the person from the party and THEN slot them into #2.

Clicking a party members portrait to select them? Gods. I tent to click on a party member and hit the 1 key to use potion for healing, half the time it doesnt select the person. I've had a couple instances where I had to double back and realize the character wasn't selected and its a bit annoying. Why clicking the portrait doesn't register as a selection more often than not is both clunky and annoying. F1-F4 options are nice to select, but they should be options not a requirement to have it be responsive.

I never understood why click drag selection didn't exist in DOS1 or DOS2, and that its absent in BG3 is even more confusing.
Barely related, but god if they didn't manage to make even the "initiative queue" look way more confusing than it should have any right to be.



Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/10/20 10:08 AM
A little bump just to say that I'm playing this EA build over and over and since I started this thread I also started paying attention to terrain conformation and so on to check if at any point anything suggests the "classic party control would be unfeasible for this game for technical reasons".
The answer so far is: not really, not at all.

The only parts of the game where the classic RTS control scheme would be a bit clumsy for the terrain available and it would be required more minute controls are the same where that same awkwardness applies to the Larian chain/unchain system.
I also noticed that even games SO FOCUSED ON A SINGLE CHARACTER CONTROL as the two (excellent) Shogun Shadow Tactics/Desperados 3 still manage group movement/selection closer to Baldur's Gate/Pathfinder than what Larian is doing.
Posted By: Arrowmaker Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/10/20 10:57 AM
Totally agree with the OP, I was going to feedback on this too. I do love the strategy of moving single characters but the default auto-run of a sub group is not working.

E.G I move a character to jump an obstacle - then the other start running around and trigger enemies!

Also when moving a party of four, if you need to jump make it so they then all follow suit and jump the same way. Currently you have to break up the group, then individually jump then rejoin them = very fiddly and tedious.

Thank you smile
Posted By: Stalkingwolf Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/10/20 11:32 AM
Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
I kind of like it, but honestly its not that great when combat is about to start. Party members just don't stick close enough


it happens that you start combat and half of your group isnt joining the combat. they show up in the rotation but the game skips them.
you have to manually control them so they get close enough to join combat.
Posted By: Agi Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/10/20 12:09 PM
+1 Fully agree on that.

A thing nobody pointed out is what happens when you need to have the whole party jump. First one jumps, ok, second one jumps and first one goes nearby even if there is fire or vines; you move them away, have the third jump and first two come near, crossing again the vines. Going out from Zorru house in groove was a real pain, not to speak of the window of the burning house where you find the wife of the guy you saved in the inn.

Someone mentioned DAO, but i dont remember having problems moving the party there, or at least having that many problems.

+1 also mentioning that you cannot cast a spell to a party member using the icons; it's out of range ok tell me that, but having to mouseover everyone to cast an healing spell because the icon shows he's wounded is annoying, and in all similar games i played you can cast to the icon
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/10/20 12:36 PM
Originally Posted by Agi
+1 Fully agree on that.

A thing nobody pointed out is what happens when you need to have the whole party jump. First one jumps, ok, second one jumps and first one goes nearby even if there is fire or vines; you move them away, have the third jump and first two come near, crossing again the vines. Going out from Zorru house in groove was a real pain, not to speak of the window of the burning house where you find the wife of the guy you saved in the inn.

Someone mentioned DAO, but i dont remember having problems moving the party there, or at least having that many problems.

As a bonus consideration: this system Larian uses makes managing a four-members party way more cumbersome than moving around a full party of six men in a game like Pathfinder: Kingmaker.

Imagine if Larian listened to the (VERY popular) request to increase party size to six without addressing these controls first. A request I'm all in favor of, I may add.
It would turn minute party control from just bad to an unmitigated disaster.

If people want a six-members party (as it seems, given that the discussion about it is the most popular thread on this subforum) addressing this issue is basically a pre-requirement.
Posted By: Agi Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/10/20 12:52 PM
I haven played Pathfinder but i think that the best way to move a party is to select who you want to move and others will stay where they are. If you select all everybody moves together with the AI pathing trying to avoid to have them step on fire, if you select just the sneaking rogue to give a peek behind the corner, others stay there, waiting for the rogue to position before moving to attack.

About six members party dunno, mixed blessing; would have been mandatory to have two fighters in the frontline with old DnD rules but now Rogues can hold the line easily, at least at low level, and even mages arent brittle as they were before
Posted By: Athann Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/10/20 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic.

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.


There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.

I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?





you are totally right, i played the pillars of eternity series and Pathfinder:kingmaker, and i am an alpha tester for wrath of the righteous, Larian should really make a function to select the characters, it is more manageable and precise.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/10/20 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by Athann

you are totally right, i played the pillars of eternity series and Pathfinder:kingmaker, and i am an alpha tester for wrath of the righteous, Larian should really make a function to select the characters, it is more manageable and precise.

Not to derail the topic, but is there some way to pay my way into WotR alpha currently, if I missed the original kickstarter?
Posted By: andreasrylander Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/10/20 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic.

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.


There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.

I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?






Yes!!!!!
Posted By: ulvgaar Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/10/20 09:32 PM
+1, i think changing movement system is must
Posted By: FrankHunter Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/10/20 09:51 PM
Totally agree with the OP. One possible solution would be an option to deactivate AI (and thus movement) of party members, as in the original BG games. This could be easier than doing proper pathfinding and out-of-combat behaviour.
Posted By: Suhiira Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/10/20 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco

There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

+1
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/10/20 01:43 AM
Not to pat myself in the back, but four full pages of thread in and this must be possibly the LEAST divisive topic on this board and the one suggestion where I think every single reply so far agrees with.
I posted the same summary of the issue on Steam as well and even there I have yet to see a single reply of someone disagreeing that these controls are bad and traditional RTS.like ones would be a significant improvement.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying this to compliment myself, but just to stress a thing to Larian: when even in a forum like this you can hardly find a single person willing to defend the system you are using, there must be something genuinely weak about it that NEEDS to be addressed.

In general, even about other popular topics, I wish devs would make us hear their opinions more frequently about the feedback they are receiving etc.
Right now it's hard to know if they have even acknowledged this as a problem at all, let alone if they have plans on acting to solve it.

Posted By: Kal Spiro Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/10/20 02:24 AM
This is also not the only post/thread on this topic. The party movement management is the absolute worst part about this otherwise enjoyable game for me. If it didn't take an age to "Quick" load I might be more forgiving, but when I spend ten minutes trying to position everyone just so, only to misclick and have someone who was grouped move in the wrong way and trigger a trap, or walk through a flaming gas pocket, or any number of other stupid things they do, it gets frustrating.
Posted By: SymposiumX Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/10/20 03:22 AM
Was going to post something similar. I notice it a lot, when I use Shadowheart to cast Guidance. The part runs around like coked up toddlers, as I attempt to cast it on my chosen character. I’d much prefer BG1/2 where, when you select the active character, no party members move unless you select a spot on the world...and then they take position according to marching orders. The animation should be: select Shadowheart, cast Guidance, click on portrait of selected target party member, confirm, (Animation) Shadowheart moves within range and buffs said character.

Also need a drag and select party members and tab-click select party members. The whole chain/group thing is ok in DOS, but doesn’t work well in BG.
Posted By: SymposiumX Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/10/20 03:26 AM
Quick compliment: this game is going to be amazing and kudos to Larian!

I find it really frustrating that when my party is “grouped/chained” and I move my selected character to jump up a hill, the rest of the party (and summons) don’t follow. Really need the friendly AI to be better on map navigation. If I wanted only my selected character to move through that path, I would have ungrouped/unchained them, right?
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/10/20 04:14 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic.

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.


There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.

I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?






Couldn't agree more. The current way to control your group is horrific, and add the terrible pathing and the overly finicky way to attach/detatch and rearrange characters on top of that and you get a mess when trying to move your party around with any kind of precision.
Oh, and another thing that also adds to this is the fact that sometimes I have to click a character portrait two or three times before it actually gets selected. (and no, there is nothing wrong with my mouse)
Posted By: Mogan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/10/20 04:30 AM
100% agreement.
Playing this game feels like I'm fighting the controls the entire time. BG3 has really cool 3D environments, and the addition of jumping opens up all kinds of awesome exploration options ... but it suuucks trying to micromanage a party over even a small gap. Or to split them up to get everyone in position before a fight. Even just getting the weirdly restrictive camera to point at where you want to go/look is a pain.
Guys, CRPGs figured all these things out years ago; just use RTS controls and a WoW-style camera we can aim anywhere. Please; I want to like this game, but it's just aggravating to play.
Posted By: Matey Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/10/20 04:48 AM
Agree with OP. So many examples of games that do this well. Just follow their example on this one.

I think a lot of it works if you have multiplayer going... but its rough for single player. Companions shouldn't be a huge pain in the ass to manage.

also make companions actually do things in conversations more. Like Rogue pulls a knife and knocks you to the ground and your companions just stand idly by and watch? Glad to see they have my back...
Posted By: Newtinmpls Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/10/20 04:55 AM
Basically:

-yes it's idiotic that NPC's "follow" me through poison/acid/whatever when I (that character) did NOT walk in it in the first place.
-there should be a 'stay put' command, as even in stealth the NPCs, pets, whatever still follow and do so unwisely (as noted above).
Posted By: Anfindel Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/10/20 05:08 AM
While I completely agree that party movement controls in the DoS/BG3 systems are far inferior to that of BG2/PoE/Pathfinder, I suspect this is one area of the game we are least likely to see a change in, as programming party movement is such a basic building block for a game, at this point that would likely have to junk much of what has been done and start over from scratch.

That being said, this is fortunately one of the few systems I absolutely dislike. Most of the other game issues thus far can be resolved with tweaking or supportive systems - not wholesale tear down and rebuild.
Posted By: RKLimes Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/10/20 05:31 AM
+1

I don't have much to add, that hasn't been said.
Out of combat, and especially immediately after combat, don't walk in the things!

Selecting characters should definitely be handled better too.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/10/20 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by Anfindel
While I completely agree that party movement controls in the DoS/BG3 systems are far inferior to that of BG2/PoE/Pathfinder, I suspect this is one area of the game we are least likely to see a change in, as programming party movement is such a basic building block for a game, at this point that would likely have to junk much of what has been done and start over from scratch.

That being said, this is fortunately one of the few systems I absolutely dislike. Most of the other game issues thus far can be resolved with tweaking or supportive systems - not wholesale tear down and rebuild.


Admittedly i'm not a game developer. But surely it can't be such a monumental task to adjust the way you select and handle your party?
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/10/20 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by Peranor

Admittedly i'm not a game developer. But surely it can't be such a monumental task to adjust the way you select and handle your party?

Yeah, I don't see it being a massive commitment either.
The building blocks for the control system we are asking for are already in place after all. Aside from permitting (and visualizing on the UI) multiple unit selection it would at most require some minor tweaking at the camera in some specific areas (and that's mostly because it's a required improvement in general, not even specific to RTS-styled controls).

Posted By: Roarro Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/10/20 04:03 PM
+1,it will be good to have movement/party system like in real Baldurs Gate.
Posted By: KingNothing69 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/10/20 04:40 PM
+1
The controls shouldn't make basic interaction with the game this frustrating. Why fix what wasn't broken?
Posted By: UncleBoss Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/10/20 04:45 PM
I don't like that there's like a 0.5 second delay between clicking to move and the character actually moving. Compared to WL3 where movement is instant upon clicking, BG3 feels sluggish and imprecise, like the animation blending between standing and moving needs to be sped up.
Posted By: Druid_NPC Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/10/20 04:46 PM
+1

This is the topic of universal agreement.
Posted By: Lastman Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/10/20 07:44 PM
Drag select is the future indeed...+1 but i guess it's their trade mark ?

Hopefully they can get pass that and actually do whats good for the player?

But it did get pass EA in DoS 2 so i doubt they gonna fix it here.. At best they could add drag select i reckon.

Somehow i get the feeling that they aren't into all this suggestion forum business... And all they care is about their metadata. hopefully i'm wrong...
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/10/20 08:39 PM
The irony of the situation is that addressing this problem would not just improve the overall usability of the controls by a wide margin in general, but also go a LONG way to re-establish the feeling of "being a proper Baldur's Gate rather than DOS 3" that a lot of players are lamenting about.

In fact, a better point & click control scheme AND a six-men party for the single player, if combined, would probably address the overwhelming majority of the grievances about "feeling more DOS than anything".


Posted By: Dagless Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/10/20 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Not to pat myself in the back, but four full pages of thread in and this must be possibly the LEAST divisive topic on this board and the one suggestion where I think every single reply so far agrees with.
I posted the same summary of the issue on Steam as well and even there I have yet to see a single reply of someone disagreeing that these controls are bad and traditional RTS.like ones would be a significant improvement.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying this to compliment myself, but just to stress a thing to Larian: when even in a forum like this you can hardly find a single person willing to defend the system you are using, there must be something genuinely weak about it that NEEDS to be addressed.


Not so fast, sunshine.

First off, I fully agree that it’s currently quite wonky, and even in DOS2 it was a bit cumbersome.

However, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the whole linking party members system in principle, it just needs some refinement. There’s certainly some advantages to a system where you can separate one or more characters and leave the rest moving as a group. Particularly in a game where you can send one character off to the other end of the map to do things separate from from the rest of the party. I imagine it’s pretty useful for multiplayer, so for instance 2 players can have 2 teams of 2 moving together, without having to constantly select 2 characters to move.

There’s certainly big issues with pathfinding, using stealth, and even the dragging to link and unlink characters (which really should have been improved 2 games ago), but the basic system isn’t bad at all. If they fix things like the pathfinding and the amount your lead character gets ahead, and add some shortcuts for linking and unlinking party members (eg shift-click to unlink and move) then it could be a better system than other games.

I’m not sure why some want to drag a selection box around characters they want to move in 3D game with so much height variation. It works well for infinity engine and similar games, but that doesn’t mean it would work well for this one.

Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/10/20 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by Dagless

However, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the whole linking party members system in principle, it just needs some refinement.

Well, congratulations, you just ruined a spotless record for the sake of it and managed to support TWO terrible design decisions in a row.
Hope you'll sleep well with this heinous crime on your conscience.
Posted By: Mogan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/10/20 02:06 AM
Originally Posted by Dagless
Originally Posted by Tuco
Not to pat myself in the back, but four full pages of thread in and this must be possibly the LEAST divisive topic on this board and the one suggestion where I think every single reply so far agrees with.
I posted the same summary of the issue on Steam as well and even there I have yet to see a single reply of someone disagreeing that these controls are bad and traditional RTS.like ones would be a significant improvement.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying this to compliment myself, but just to stress a thing to Larian: when even in a forum like this you can hardly find a single person willing to defend the system you are using, there must be something genuinely weak about it that NEEDS to be addressed.


Not so fast, sunshine.

First off, I fully agree that it’s currently quite wonky, and even in DOS2 it was a bit cumbersome.

However, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the whole linking party members system in principle, it just needs some refinement. There’s certainly some advantages to a system where you can separate one or more characters and leave the rest moving as a group. Particularly in a game where you can send one character off to the other end of the map to do things separate from from the rest of the party. I imagine it’s pretty useful for multiplayer, so for instance 2 players can have 2 teams of 2 moving together, without having to constantly select 2 characters to move.

There’s certainly big issues with pathfinding, using stealth, and even the dragging to link and unlink characters (which really should have been improved 2 games ago), but the basic system isn’t bad at all. If they fix things like the pathfinding and the amount your lead character gets ahead, and add some shortcuts for linking and unlinking party members (eg shift-click to unlink and move) then it could be a better system than other games.

I’m not sure why some want to drag a selection box around characters they want to move in 3D game with so much height variation. It works well for infinity engine and similar games, but that doesn’t mean it would work well for this one.


If the party was ever split up and drag selecting wasn't handy, you could just shift or control click portraits, or directly on the characters. You know, like Baldur's Gate. When the party was together, drag selecting would be faster and you could use that. The basic control scheme in DoS and BG3 IS bad. It's slower and more cumbersome than traditional BG controls in every way.
Posted By: Praetox Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/10/20 02:10 AM
Hey are we talking about how you have to make everybody jump individually otherwise your entire party just nope so off into the distance? Because the fact that you have to make everybody jump individually or your entire party just malfunctions is absolutely ridiculous especially with the verticality of this game compared to the previous divinity titles
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/10/20 02:36 AM
Originally Posted by Praetox
Hey are we talking about how you have to make everybody jump individually otherwise your entire party just nope so off into the distance? Because the fact that you have to make everybody jump individually or your entire party just malfunctions is absolutely ridiculous especially with the verticality of this game compared to the previous divinity titles

Yeah, that’s basically a consequence of not being able to select/give the same command to multiple units at once.
Same as being forced to put in and out of stealth characters individually.

Because, you know, shitty control scheme is shitty, even if Mr “Not so fast” here takes pride in being the only life form on this planet willing to defend it.
Posted By: Dagless Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/10/20 07:44 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Dagless

However, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the whole linking party members system in principle, it just needs some refinement.

Well, congratulations, you just ruined a spotless record for the sake of it and managed to support TWO terrible design decisions in a row.
Hope you'll sleep well with this heinous crime on your conscience.


Sorry to break your spotless record of people all forgetting (or not caring) that the control system has to work for multiplayer as well.

I know it’s nice to bask in all those plus +1s, but you did actually ask why why they used this system, compared to all the single player games you mentioned.

A simple example is two players each controlling their main character and one NPC. You ‘d want 2 teams of 2 moving around without having to select them each time. Then you might want to give one player control of both NPCs while the other goes solo for a bit. There’s also potential conflicts if both players try to grab control of the same character at the same time.

I’m not entirely sure what’s going on under the hood, but I think it’s more than just selecting and moving characters, but switching control of them between up to 4 computers.

Originally Posted by Mogan

If the party was ever split up and drag selecting wasn't handy, you could just shift or control click portraits, or directly on the characters. You know, like Baldur's Gate. When the party was together, drag selecting would be faster and you could use that. The basic control scheme in DoS and BG3 IS bad. It's slower and more cumbersome than traditional BG controls in every way.


I’m all for better and faster ways to link/unlink characters and move them. I don’t much like dragging portraits about, as that’s always been a bit finicky. But I do find having them grouped can be useful even in single player. For multiplayer, it’s probably essential to have something like the way they’ve done it.

Suggestions to improve the system are helpful. Just saying it that original BG is better isn’t really, and its more likely to be ignored.
Posted By: LoneSky Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/10/20 08:04 AM
Honestly I never use a linked party in BG3, unless I'm just moving through in an already cleared area. Or have to go through an instance door with full party.
Would be suicide to move with the way is set up.

I control just a single character, rest is parked one by one, in stealth, somewhere safe. Then after the scouting ahead is done, I move them one by one. Takes very long, it's really like a chess game, just way slower.

Feels like hard work to move everything right, but there's no other way. Once I was lazy, coming from camp and the game joined them in a party, and I moved toward the swamp area, where of course was a trap in the water. Then couldn't move them away at all because they were stuck at different times and their health started going down fast, so had to un-chain and save them one by one.
After that had to go back to camp to heal. So learned my lesson: never move all at once.



Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/10/20 08:15 AM
Originally Posted by Dagless


Sorry to break your spotless record of people all forgetting (or not caring) that the control system has to work for multiplayer as well.


You seem to be under the delusion that Larian games are the only titles in the genre supporting multiplayer. OR a gamepad-friendly control scheme, for all that matter.

Quote
A simple example is two players each controlling their main character and one NPC.

Which is is still incomparably better with RTS controls. You know, the genre that across almost three decades since Dune 2 PERFECTED having to control multiple units at once and make it as quick and intuitive as possible.
Unless you are adamant about playing with a controller... Where incidentally NO ONE would prevent you to still use with an autofollow feature, as other games did.

You are acting smug about "people basking in their +1s" and taking pride in your being the lone voice outside of the choir, but it's starting to sound like you just love to defend terrible designs for the sake of it, to be perfectly honest.
Which I wouldn't care for, if your effort to be special wouldn't be harmful for the quality of the product in the long run.

P.S. Fun fact: controllers aren't even supported and usable currently. It's in the "to do" list.





Posted By: iMage Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/10/20 08:15 AM
Agreed. Movement and precision can be downright infuriating at times with the current setup. Took me awhile when I first started to even find out there was no partial select or full party select option outside of the cumbersome and fiddly "chaining" system. I much preferred the more fast and precise "click and drag box" of the original BG series. Also, the formation options gave me knowledge of exactly where a party member would go or attempt to go.
Posted By: Druid_NPC Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/10/20 12:08 PM
I was specially salty about the movement today playing a Raven familiar. A FLYING animal not being able to follow you because of a ledge is ridiculous.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/10/20 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by iMage
Agreed. Movement and precision can be downright infuriating at times with the current setup. Took me awhile when I first started to even find out there was no partial select or full party select option outside of the cumbersome and fiddly "chaining" system. I much preferred the more fast and precise "click and drag box" of the original BG series. Also, the formation options gave me knowledge of exactly where a party member would go or attempt to go.


A quick and dirty workaround to the issue would at very least be a hotkey to chain/unchain everyone instantly. It would still suck and be just a marginal patchwork to a system that requires an extensive revamp, but at least there would be a convenient safenet against the most infuriating situations.

P.S. I literally just relaized that there's a typo in the thread title and I can't find an option to edit it, for some reason.
Posted By: Traycor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/10/20 03:33 PM
Never had to "figure out" how to move characters before in a CRPG. It's always been intuitive. The movement and party formation management in this game feels wonky and broken.
Posted By: KingNothing69 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/10/20 05:04 PM
It's funny to me that a team who had never worked on video games before and had so little programming knowledge (BioWare) managed to create a CRPG that did so many things right the first time including movement and party management...
Posted By: Sir Sparhawk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/10/20 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic.

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.


There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.

I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?




Agreed, I much prefer selectable formations the same as in the old Infinity engine games, that have been emulated in the newer CRPGs, I think it worked really well in them and with a little tweaking could probably service this game quite nicely. and yes I find Larians way rather confusing and unintuitive in comparison. I haven't had chance to put much time into it yet so I don't know if their system will grow on me but I don't think so, I found a top down view to play the game (though I don't remember how) so why not give us classic controls with the classic view?
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/10/20 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by Sir Sparhawk

Agreed, I much prefer selectable formations the same as in the old Infinity engine games, that have been emulated in the newer CRPGs, I think it worked really well in them and with a little tweaking could probably service this game quite nicely. and yes I find Larians way rather confusing and unintuitive in comparison.

I haven't had chance to put much time into it yet so I don't know if their system will grow on me but I don't think so, I found a top down view to play the game (though I don't remember how) so why not give us classic controls with the classic view?

I can't speak for you, but I can tell you that if anything over the years using it since DOS1 I've grown more and more annoyed about it. There's no "getting use to it".
But even if that happened somehow, would be the gaming equivalent of growing accustomed to an abusive relationship.
Posted By: Ellynrie Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/10/20 07:43 PM
how about this new party movement, WITH a smart ruling system :

-1 party by default avoids obvious harm (hitbox), can be overwritten in option.
-2 party split button.
-3 party memory jumping to follow u'r jump steps, or try. ( yes i currently make them jump one by one over obstacles and it gets my immersion to a crawling halt)
-4 option : my party ignores harm existence if they are not in sight to see me walk on specific or all trap/terrains.
-5 party not jumping down roofs by autopathing, to jump down roofs, go to the edge first.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/10/20 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by Ellynrie
how about this new party movement, WITH a smart ruling system :

-1 party by default avoids obvious harm (hitbox), can be overwritten in option.
-2 party split button.
-3 party memory jumping to follow u'r jump steps, or try. ( yes i currently make them jump one by one over obstacles and it gets my immersion to a crawling halt)
-4 option : my party ignores harm existence if they are not in sight to see me walk on specific or all trap/terrains.
-5 party not jumping down roofs by autopathing, to jump down roofs, go to the edge first.


Seems like an extremely convoluted solution that address only parts of the issues, to a problem that could be solved way more easily in a definitive manner.
Posted By: Skjoldur Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/10/20 09:42 PM
No need to sugarcoat it: It is horrible.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/10/20 10:47 PM
Originally Posted by Skjoldur
No need to sugarcoat it: It is horrible.

Never intended to.
As I said several times, my hate for it is only growing the more I use it.
Posted By: Bossk_Hogg Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/10/20 10:49 PM
This is the clunkiest RPG I've ever played, bar none. No formations, individual jumping coupled with terrible pathing, the stealth to combat transition... just all around terrible. Targeting needs to be improved as well. It would be ideal to click the party member's portrait when casting a spell on them, but nope, gotta pixelbitch around the map. Oh well, enjoy the healing word Goblin #2.
Posted By: Mogan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 01:43 AM
Here's what I'd like to see:

1. Let us select multiple characters at once and give generic orders to every selected at the same time. If I've got two or more party members selected and I hit sneak, they all sneak.

2. Let us drag select and click on characters to select them. Rick-click can be talk to, or talk can be added to the context menu. Items on the ground that can be moved should be moveable only while a modifier key is held down (maybe one that also highlights all interactable objects?!).

3. Button and key command for select all party members.

4. No more auto follow. It's a bad solution to a problem a CRPG like this shouldn't have.

5. Freer camera. Only being able to orbit on a flat plane is too restrictive. Whatever point the camera's looking at, let us orbit around it freely at any angle that doesn't clip through the ground. And let us zoom out further so the camera's whacking into terrain less.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 08:59 AM
Originally Posted by Mogan
Here's what I'd like to see:

1. Let us select multiple characters at once and give generic orders to every selected at the same time. If I've got two or more party members selected and I hit sneak, they all sneak.

2. Let us drag select and click on characters to select them. Rick-click can be talk to, or talk can be added to the context menu. Items on the ground that can be moved should be moveable only while a modifier key is held down (maybe one that also highlights all interactable objects?!).

3. Button and key command for select all party members.

4. No more auto follow. It's a bad solution to a problem a CRPG like this shouldn't have.

5. Freer camera. Only being able to orbit on a flat plane is too restrictive. Whatever point the camera's looking at, let us orbit around it freely at any angle that doesn't clip through the ground. And let us zoom out further so the camera's whacking into terrain less.

A sensible list.
I’d object just the fact that auto-follow could stay as a toggle-option.
You know, for people who like to suffer.
Posted By: JDCrenton Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 09:06 AM
Autofollow is the lazy answer to not having a proper party movement system. Just like the pathfinding seems baby steps even for enemies.
Posted By: Riandor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 11:00 AM
There are many issues with the system as it stands and it seems obvious that it at heart has a MP feel to it as individually the characters are fine right, by and large.

I am going with a hybrid of it's likely to stay vs what I would like to have, vs a complete redesign, as I am not sure that's likely, but here goes:

- Assign a Leader slot.
Let's say far left (even is split parties), slightly raised or highlighted or whatever as a visual reminder. Party members follow/rearrange themselves to that PC and not to the one I double clicked (as that pulls characters out from where I just placed them AAAARGH!).

- Characters copy Leader Action
If all characters are in Party mode, any Action I select should be copied by the others, Stealth, Jump etc... (Ia ppreciate Jump requires "space", but the AI should allow the leader to move forwards and rubber band / snap to the leader once space is there to Jump and form up.

- Formations
Loose, tight, single-file, etc... Currently everything is too loose. THe main character moves forwards, the others wait and then join seemingly at their leisure. If I stumble into Combat, my main character is several metres ahead of my party, okish if all ranged, bad if melee. Would also allow easier navigation of areas.

- Un-Link/Re-Link All
There are times the game wants you to use TB individual commands, but then it should make doing that convenient and easy. Step 1 is to allow us to unlink or relink Everyone at will, rather than just by dragging individuals.

- Single Click select and Camera focus
I would like to click on a portrait and have the camera pan to that character If I assign said character a task, say, stealth and investigate a chest, it should uncouple them from the team (again this assumes they don't switch to no teams and having to always select all to move a party)

- Cast to Portrait
In the thick of battle I want to select my spell target based on Portrait, either top left in inititative queue or (if my party) then bottom left

- Talk to party member should be right click
Speaks for itself, too easy to accidentally start a conversation, one could get used to it as is, but I think wanting to start a chat with someone doesn't need to be that easy

Those are the first "concepts" that spring to mind based upon building what is there. That is not to say I would do it that if given free licence to re-do the system, but given the MP aspect and potential controller friendliness, I have tried to keep it based on what we already have,

I will add as I go along, or jump onto some of the other concepts people have

Posted By: dunehunter Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 11:07 AM
Every time I swap character, my party members will walk around wildly to follow the character I selected, this is pretty annoying when u just want to cast guidance on someone.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 11:15 AM
Originally Posted by Riandor
There are many issues with the system as it stands and it seems obvious that it at heart has a MP feel to it as individually the characters are fine right, by and large.

I am going with a hybrid of it's likely to stay vs what I would like to have, vs a complete redesign, as I am not sure that's likely, but here goes:

CUT

When you really think about it, it's somewhat hilarious that we need to discuss all sorts of convoluted workaround to salvage a system that has virtually no redeeming qualities compared to a 20 years older alternative.

What's worse, if being controller friendly was the real crux of the issue, nothing is preventing Larian to keep the control scheme unchanged when playing with controllers (and even then, while admittedly I didn't give it much of my time to test it extensively, wouldn't be surprised if better alternatives already exist).
Posted By: Riandor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Riandor
There are many issues with the system as it stands and it seems obvious that it at heart has a MP feel to it as individually the characters are fine right, by and large.

I am going with a hybrid of it's likely to stay vs what I would like to have, vs a complete redesign, as I am not sure that's likely, but here goes:

CUT

When you really think about it, it's somewhat hilarious that we need to discuss all sorts of convoluted workaround to salvage a system that has virtually no redeeming qualities compared to a 20 years older alternative.

What's worse, if being controller friendly was the real crux of the issue, nothing is preventing Larian to keep the control scheme unchanged when playing with controllers (and even then, while admittedly I didn't give it much of my time to test it extensively, wouldn't be surprised if better alternatives already exist).

Originally designed as pure PC Game with an RTS controls feel and yes it worked great as a PC game designed for opertion in Real Time.

I certainly don't disagree with you, I guess I am approaching it from the "someone must have had a reason" aspect and looking to offer improvement suggestions. Even if that reason was "it kinda worked fine in DoS and to save time we have just adopted that to make sure we hit release based on current budget." Who knows what might change given a strong EA uptake, etc...

We are also just going on the assumption that what is in EA is by and large finished mechanics in need of refinement, whereas they could easily be expecting to do an overhaul but didn't want to delay EA as a result. Hence my stance I guess.

I also still struggle as a solo player with the concept of stealthing / moving characters into a location and others triggering a combat, but the one I initially stealthed is considered outside of combat and not in the turn queue. It's odd. Probably works better in MP, but as a solo play it isn't intuitive, not at first at any rate, maybe I need to play more.
I think I would extend the radius of putting characters into TB mode once Combat has started, but find a way to show they are not yet involved, other than leaving them out of the inititiative sequence.

As of right now if I think I have someone in a sneaky position and initiate combat, I don't immediately see that my sneaky rogue isn't yet in combat and I miss "their turn" if I am not careful.
Posted By: Druid_NPC Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 01:47 PM
Originally Posted by Riandor
- Formations
Loose, tight, single-file, etc... Currently everything is too loose. THe main character moves forwards, the others wait and then join seemingly at their leisure. If I stumble into Combat, my main character is several metres ahead of my party, okish if all ranged, bad if melee. Would also allow easier navigation of areas.

- Cast to Portrait
In the thick of battle I want to select my spell target based on Portrait, either top left in inititative queue or (if my party) then bottom left

- Talk to party member should be right click
Speaks for itself, too easy to accidentally start a conversation, one could get used to it as is, but I think wanting to start a chat with someone doesn't need to be that easy



I agree with those, starting unwanted conversations and not being able to cast at portrait really bothered me.

Also it just makes sense to have scouts and tanks in the front of the party but that doesn't mean they should do the talking.
Posted By: Bluthtonian Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?


Not me, I'm with you 100%.
Posted By: Emrikol Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 02:30 PM
Something really should be done to improve this part of the game, but I am doubtful it will happen. DOS2 had the same system and also has consistently had calls to change the system. What I am finding is that it is worse in BG3 at the moment because character selection does not always 'take' with the first click, and even if it does, attempts to drag and unchain the character aren't always successful, resulting in the character running to the spot where I meant to move the picture.
Posted By: BadgerMan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.

In general, +1.
However, there are some things to say about some of the other points.
Originally Posted by Tuco

There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.

True. And honestly, this is probably my biggest gripe with the whole thing. I want to move one character on their own? It takes a minimum of 3 actions to do so. Right click, ungroup, select, move. Maybe I could bind some shortcut keys to do it, dunno, haven't really investigated that far, but it's really annoying to have to ungroup everyone, all the time, right click, ungroup, right click, ungroup, right click, ungroup, and then start moving. And then the reverse when combat is over and I just want to move them as a group again. This whole system would be made a lot less cumbersome if there was simply a group all / ungroup all toggle button. Perhaps there is? I'll have to look and see if I can find one. Even then, I still think that would be more convoluted than the intuitive point and click of the way the previous BG games worked.

Originally Posted by Tuco

- it's less accurate.

Perhaps, I'm not sure this is true though. I'm inclined to say that technically it's not. If you ungroup all of your party members, select the one you want, and then only move that party member, it's just as precise as the other systems. Of course, if you're used to the normal way of doing things, you're going to spend a lot of time trying to do things the old way, and that will MAKE you inaccurate, because your inputs will be errors. Not exactly a problem with the system itself, though.

Originally Posted by Tuco

- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.

This is definitely false. You never really need to give anyone quick instructions on where to position, it's a turn based game. Take as long as you want. However, of course, the fact of it being turn based and not time critical definitely isn't a good excuse for having a clunky interface.

Originally Posted by Tuco

- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

True. But again, not really because the system itself is inaccurate, but rather because a lot of my inputs are errors, because I'm used to doing things a different way. It would still be nice to have a more intuitive interface, of course.







Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by BadgerMan
Originally Posted by Tuco

- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.

This is definitely false. You never really need to give anyone quick instructions on where to position, it's a turn based game. Take as long as you want. However, of course, the fact of it being turn based and not time critical definitely isn't a good excuse for having a clunky interface.

Counter-objection: the entire thread is about the part of the game that controls in real time. No one is complaining about the turn-based controls.
And you have just to look at the countless posts of people [rightfully] bitching that trying to cast Guidance on a companion gets easily messy if you don't take "preparatory steps" before (like forcefully switching to turn-based mode or unchaning/re-chaining characters).
Posted By: Creslin321 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 03:01 PM
I don't think the movement system is going to change to allow multiple characters to be selected. The way it is now, it is extremely "controller friendly" and since controller support is going to be added, I doubt they are going to create an entirely new movement system that will be completely separate from the controller based one and only work with mouse and keyboard. The movement system is also very "multiplayer friendly."

That said, I think there are some more simple things that can be changed to make it much less frustrating.

1. If you press "c" or click the stealth thing, just make every character currently linked to the one you are controlling go into stealth or come out of stealth.

2. Provide a way for party members to teleport to one another. Do it just like the pyramids in Divinity. This will solve the issue of one character jumping over something and then having to manually jump every other character to them.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by Creslin321
I don't think the movement system is going to change to allow multiple characters to be selected. The way it is now, it is extremely "controller friendly" and since controller support is going to be added, I doubt they are going to create an entirely new movement system that will be completely separate from the controller based one and only work with mouse and keyboard. The movement system is also very "multiplayer friendly."


I don't see how changing it for mouse and keyboard would prevent Larian from sticking to the same questionable scheme when playing with a controller.

But still, let's not waste our time worrying about what we think they are going or not going to do. This is not about making predictions, but judging what's there.

Let's stick to the facts; does it suck or it does not?
It does, it fucking does. It sucks so badly it's almost universally loathed by anyone who doesn't work at Larian (and maybe even among them) or isn't "Mr Not so fast".

In a forum where even arguments about crap being edible have their defenders, that alone should be an alarming tell that something is wrong.
Posted By: Vortex138 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 03:09 PM
Not sure if this has been stated already, but if you wanted to control each party member individually, you could break the party apart and move each one individually. That is an option. Again, let's see what Larian can do when released.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 03:12 PM
Originally Posted by Vortex138
Not sure if this has been stated already, but if you wanted to control each party member individually, you could break the party apart and move each one individually. That is an option. Again, let's see what Larian can do when released.

Well, of course it has. The entire discussion is specifically about how annoying that is. Especially because:
1- You need to relink them later to move them as a whole group.
2- Once separated you are forced to move each one of them individually. You can't select multiple units and move them together...
3- ...Which also means you can't give group commands like "Jump" or "Go stealth" for multiple units at once.
Posted By: Creslin321 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Creslin321
I don't think the movement system is going to change to allow multiple characters to be selected. The way it is now, it is extremely "controller friendly" and since controller support is going to be added, I doubt they are going to create an entirely new movement system that will be completely separate from the controller based one and only work with mouse and keyboard. The movement system is also very "multiplayer friendly."


I don't see how changing it for mouse and keyboard would prevent Larian from sticking to the same questionable scheme when playing with a controller.

But still, let's not waste our time worrying about what we think they are going or not going to do. This is not about making predictions, but judging what's there.

Let's stick to the facts; does it suck or it does not?
It does, it fucking does. It sucks so badly it's almost universally loathed by anyone who doesn't work at Larian (and maybe even among them) or isn't "Mr Not so fast".

In a forum where even arguments about crap being edible have their defenders, that alone should be an alarming tell that something is wrong.


I don't think it sucks as much as you think. There's definitely problems, but I think they can be solved by making tweaks to what's there as opposed to completely changing it to be more like the RTS style of BG, Pillars or Eternity, etc.

If you get rid of the headaches of things like stealth, pathing, etc. Then I really don't think it's that bad. I mean this system was basically used in DOS 1 and 2 and tons of people love those games.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 03:37 PM
Originally Posted by Creslin321

I don't think it sucks as much as you think. There's definitely problems, but I think they can be solved by making tweaks to what's there as opposed to completely changing it to be more like the RTS style of BG, Pillars or Eternity, etc.

Everything can be salvaged somehow to some extent, but at some point a wise man has to realize when all the effort is just going on putting more lipstick on a pig.

Quote
If you get rid of the headaches of things like stealth, pathing, etc. Then I really don't think it's that bad. I mean this system was basically used in DOS 1 and 2 and tons
of people love those games.

Yeah, well... How? By making these things automated improving the auto-follow? This is all a long series of convoluted work-arounds that are simply trying to ignore the core of the problem.
The system doesn't work. It's counter-intuitive, cumbersome, slow to use and a waste of time to adapt to.

It's not just that the alternatives are better in some areas. It's that they are better in every single one and the only redeeming feature of the system ("Just control one character if you want, the other will follow") has been done better by other games and can STILL be used passing at other control schemes.



Posted By: Saryle Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by Creslin321
I don't think it sucks as much as you think. There's definitely problems, but I think they can be solved by making tweaks to what's there as opposed to completely changing it to be more like the RTS style of BG, Pillars or Eternity, etc.

If you get rid of the headaches of things like stealth, pathing, etc. Then I really don't think it's that bad. I mean this system was basically used in DOS 1 and 2 and tons of people love those games.


If people love DOS games it doesn't mean they love everything about them. I enjoyed them very much but I absolutely hate this chain system. And why make all those tweaks when you can just use a normal established system?
Posted By: Creslin321 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 04:14 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Creslin321

I don't think it sucks as much as you think. There's definitely problems, but I think they can be solved by making tweaks to what's there as opposed to completely changing it to be more like the RTS style of BG, Pillars or Eternity, etc.

Everything can be salvaged somehow to some extent, but at some point a wise man has to realize when all the effort is just going on putting more lipstick on a pig.

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If you get rid of the headaches of things like stealth, pathing, etc. Then I really don't think it's that bad. I mean this system was basically used in DOS 1 and 2 and tons
of people love those games.

Yeah, well... How? By making these things automated improving the auto-follow? This is all a long series of convoluted work-arounds that are simply trying to ignore the core of the problem.
The system doesn't work. It's counter-intuitive, cumbersome, slow to use and a waste of time to adapt to.

It's not just that the alternatives are better in some areas. It's that they are better in every single one and the only redeeming feature of the system ("Just control one character if you want, the other will follow") has been done better by other games and can STILL be used passing at other control schemes.





I get that you don’t like the system, but that’s really just an opinion.

If they changed the system to be like BG2, you would probably have just as Divinity fans complaining about it.

The system as it is has some major problems that are making people hate it.

Stealth is one, pathing through surfaces is another, and party members not following when you jump is a third.

If these get fixed, I think the system will be much better.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by Creslin321

I get that you don’t like the system, but that’s really just an opinion.

If they changed the system to be like BG2, you would probably have just as Divinity fans complaining about it.

Heh. I'd be ready to take bets against that.
Posted By: Charod Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 04:24 PM
full agree with OP, the current movement system is bad for party management.

- if you want to jump across something as a party, need to unlink every character, and let them jump one at a time over, then link them again
- no drag select or click on screen to select characters
- when selecting another character as 'active', the other 3 starts moving around like idiots to position them for following the new active character
- bad pathing...characters on follow that run through surface damage effects while following.

- i miss a system where you can put waypoints for moving your characters around surface effects when in combat -> is that in the game or not? couldn't find anything - if not, it should be added.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by Charod
full agree with OP, the current movement system is bad for party management.

- i miss a system where you can put waypoints for moving your characters around surface effects when in combat -> is that in the game or not? couldn't find anything - if not, it should be added.



Yeah, this is something i started to look for during real time movement as well when my characters kept running through vines and fire
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 07:55 PM
Food for thoughts:
there have been like TWO attempts to defend Larian's system so far in the entire thread (and its clones I posted on other forums) and both of them in the end boil down to "It wouldn't be so atrociously bad IF..."
followed by a list of convoluted changes and compromises that would allegedly make the system somewhat palatable. Maybe. To a limited extent.

Woah, what a glowing endorsement.
Posted By: Traycor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/10/20 07:58 PM
So I unchained my characters, which put them out of order. Then when I reconnected them, the game did NOT want my PC as the main character at the front of the stack. I literally spent minutes fiddling with this until my character would go back to the front of the stack. So annoying.

Also, I'm constantly trying to select a party member (which should work by clicking on them) only to initiate a dialogue. Which wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't a cut scene style conversation. Very frustrating when I just want to click the character, then have to exit a conversation and try again. smirk
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 16/10/20 02:32 AM
What's this? Another person having a terrible experience trying to get used to these controls?
Color me shocked.
Also, bump.


Posted By: Sharp Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 16/10/20 02:50 AM
The chain system is irritating for so many reasons, just get rid of it and give us marquee select.
Posted By: SwordSaintSilver Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 16/10/20 03:10 AM
Originally Posted by Charod
full agree with OP, the current movement system is bad for party management.

- if you want to jump across something as a party, need to unlink every character, and let them jump one at a time over, then link them again
- no drag select or click on screen to select characters
- when selecting another character as 'active', the other 3 starts moving around like idiots to position them for following the new active character
- bad pathing...characters on follow that run through surface damage effects while following.

- i miss a system where you can put waypoints for moving your characters around surface effects when in combat -> is that in the game or not? couldn't find anything - if not, it should be added.


while not much can be done about the jumping since the characters cant all stand in the same spot, you realize a simple "chain/unchain all" button would solve most of this pretty well

what do you expect them to do when you choose a character to lead? do you want to command a line of characters from the middle right?

the game isn't done, models cant even move their fingers yet. Divinity 2 had a great pathing system where every character knew to avoid dangers if they could, why wouldnt this one get it too?
Posted By: UnderworldHades Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 16/10/20 03:12 AM
With the marquee select you can also do formations correctly from the looks of it. I hated their "formation" system they implemented in OS2. Half the time it didn't work and was really wonky.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 16/10/20 03:53 AM
Originally Posted by SwordSaintSilver
while not much can be done about the jumping since the characters cant all stand in the same spot, you realize a simple "chain/unchain all" button would solve most of this pretty well


Sure there can be. Select all characters -> click the jump button -> click the spot to jump to. The character pathing can reorganize them as/before/after they jump. Like, maybe there'd have to be enough space on the place you're jumping to for all companions to stand next to each other. But only maybe. I've seen characters run through other characters, so just allow that to happen while in the party jumping process and sort it out after everyone lands.
Posted By: Druid_NPC Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 16/10/20 04:08 AM
The AI already take each other in consideration when pathing, shouldn't be too hard to extend that to jumping as well.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 16/10/20 03:54 PM
Apparently the forum swallowed a good half dozens of the last posts during its maintenance (including a painfully long answer to Dr. Not So Fast).

Quick repost of where things started.
______________________


I was watching this minutes ago and I started laughing.
Guess who else noticed that party control is garbage?

https://youtu.be/RoynYvZSFus?t=1177

From a guy who's trying his hardest to say positive things about the game, I might add.

P.S. In case timed linking doesn't work properly for you just go at 19:37 and listen for a minute or two.
Posted By: Traycor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 16/10/20 04:11 PM
The movement currently turns the game into a grounds-keeper sim. Because your chars will randomly run through vines or fire, I feel obligated to burn all the vines I see (but that leaves fire, so I then have to freeze the burning vines). It's like I have to maintenance the environment just to run back and forth exploring an area. Not fun.
Posted By: Dagless Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 16/10/20 05:03 PM
As I see it, the UI system to select which characters are grouped is a separate issue to the movement of the group.

If the selected character is in a group chained together, the character movement can work exactly the same as if all those characters were selected together. The fact that one character gets ahead before anyone else starts moving seems to be more about how the pathfinding works through the 3D world than the user interface. Compare with original BG which could just stack 2D sprites on top of each other on a flat background with far fewer obstacles in the way.

Another difference to consider is that in DOS2 and BG3 you can do things like initiate conversations with any character, so if you’ve selected everyone to move together, who speaks when you click on an NPC? You’d either need to select a single character to speak and then reselect the group to move on, or have an additional control to designate the speaker. That’s not a particularly big deal, but there maybe other similar things I’ve not thought of yet. Using teleport pyramids in DOS games is slightly different, but would be a similar issue.

Formations never worked that well in DOS2, partly due to the time lag to get into position (although that never seemed as bad as in BG3), but also some other weirdness like the selected character would always move to front even if they are supposed to be at the back. They should definitely improve that for BG3. I believe it was a bit more reliable in DOS1, but I’m not sure.

Chaining and unchaining characters by dragging their portraits is a bit of a pain, but I don’t think it’s the main problem. It should also be the simplest thing to fix. Something like shift-click to quickly unchain and move a character, and another shift-click to chain again should be all the UI really needs, IMO. But other shortcuts could help too.

I think if Larian can fix those issues, there are some advantages to the chaining and unchaining thing. Being able to take one or more characters off somewhere else and then move the others around without having to continually select multiple characters isn’t fundamentally bad. It just needs some tidying up.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 16/10/20 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by Dagless
As I see it, the UI system to select which characters are grouped is a separate issue to the movement of the group.

It could be, but they relate in the sense that Larian deliberately put in place a system that never let you select more than one unit under the assumption that the auto-follow when chained would be an adequate replacement.
Except there are countless scenarios where it is NOT. Like how bothersome it is to manage stealth for the whole party.


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If the selected character is in a group chained together, the character movement can work exactly the same as if all those characters were selected together.

It really doesn't. There is a significant and meaningful difference betwen "I'll click on the ground and rotate and decide where each one of these guys will move with a quick drag" and "I'll click here to decide where ONE character will go and the other will more or less orbit around it stumbling up and down like drunken idiots".

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The fact that one character gets ahead before anyone else starts moving seems to be more about how the pathfinding works through the 3D world than the user interface.
Not really. Not to mention we have more modern examples than BG1 among modern 3D games.


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Another difference to consider is that in DOS2 and BG3 you can do things like initiate conversations with any character, so if you’ve selected everyone to move together, who speaks when you click on an NPC? You’d either need to select a single character to speak and then reselect the group to move on, or have an additional control to designate the speaker. That’s not a particularly big deal, but there maybe other similar things I’ve not thought of yet. Using teleport pyramids in DOS games is slightly different, but would be a similar issue.

Literally a non-issue, for both the reason that every other game in the genre manages it just fine AND the fact that claiming this to be an issue with "RTS controls" ignores how even more frequently the problem presents itself with the autofollow system.


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Formations never worked that well in DOS2, partly due to the time lag to get into position (although that never seemed as bad as in BG3), but also some other weirdness like the selected character would always move to front even if they are supposed to be at the back. They should definitely improve that for BG3. I believe it was a bit more reliable in DOS1, but I’m not sure.

Yeah, they never worked because the auto-follow made them pointless and unreliable, while the alternative option was to unchain everyone and move each one of them individually. Once again: feasible, but clumsy, slow, inefficient.

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Chaining and unchaining characters by dragging their portraits is a bit of a pain

And yet you decided for yourself this role of Devil's Advocate, defending a bad and inefficient system just for the sake of it.

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I think if Larian can fix those issues, there are some advantages to the chaining and unchaining thing.

I'd love for someone to list at least a couple, possibly based on a real use case, rather than some vague "Who knows, maybe in some special case, with the right star alignment, during a full moon".
Posted By: Dagless Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 16/10/20 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Dagless
As I see it, the UI system to select which characters are grouped is a separate issue to the movement of the group.

It could be, but they relate in the sense that Larian deliberately put in place a system that never let you select more than one unit under the assumption that the auto-follow when chained would be an adequate replacement.
Except there are countless scenarios where it is NOT. Like how bothersome it is to manage stealth for the whole party.


Others have suggested that activating stealth whilst chained should activate it for everyone chained. That sounds like a sensible idea. It’s effectively how it would work by multi selecting too, so if there’s any issues with that, it would be the same issues as with what you propose.


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If the selected character is in a group chained together, the character movement can work exactly the same as if all those characters were selected together.

It really doesn't. There is a significant and meaningful difference betwen "I'll click on the ground and rotate and decide where each one of these guys will move with a quick drag" and "I'll click here to decide where ONE character will go and the other will more or less orbit around it stumbling up and down like drunken idiots".


If the characters are stumbing “like drunken idiots” then it’s probably because they are trying to arrange themselves without clipping through each other, trying to avoid surfaces and obstacles, all trying to use the same ladder, etc. I doubt it’s anything to do with the minor detail of only having one portrait highlighted in the UI. That’s my main point. If Larian added add icons on the ground for all characters moving and the drag to rotate (or similar), it would be functionally identical to multi-selecting which ones to move, except you’d only need to select one character in a chain to move instead of everyone.

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The fact that one character gets ahead before anyone else starts moving seems to be more about how the pathfinding works through the 3D world than the user interface.
Not really. Not to mention we have more modern examples than BG1 among modern 3D games.


And maybe those games handle the movement better. Examples would be handy, maybe there’s something to learn from them. That doesn’t mean it having characters chained together that’s at fault.

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Another difference to consider is that in DOS2 and BG3 you can do things like initiate conversations with any character, so if you’ve selected everyone to move together, who speaks when you click on an NPC? You’d either need to select a single character to speak and then reselect the group to move on, or have an additional control to designate the speaker. That’s not a particularly big deal, but there maybe other similar things I’ve not thought of yet. Using teleport pyramids in DOS games is slightly different, but would be a similar issue.

Literally a non-issue, for both the reason that every other game in the genre manages it just fine AND the fact that claiming this to be an issue with "RTS controls" ignores how even more frequently the problem presents itself with the autofollow system.


As far as I’m aware, Larian’s games are the only RPGs where any party member can talk to NPCs. In old BG, PoE, DA, etc. it’s always the protagonist talking.

I said it’s probably not a big issue, but it still needs sorting and you’ve not said how you propose to do it. If Larian were to follow your advice they would need to decide how to handle this and probably more consequences that neither of us have even thought of. You can brush it off as a non issue, but they can’t. They’d need to think through everything the player can do in the game and make sure they have a solution for it all that’s easy to use. Thats why it’s not going to happen, btw.


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Formations never worked that well in DOS2, partly due to the time lag to get into position (although that never seemed as bad as in BG3), but also some other weirdness like the selected character would always move to front even if they are supposed to be at the back. They should definitely improve that for BG3. I believe it was a bit more reliable in DOS1, but I’m not sure.

Yeah, they never worked because the auto-follow made them pointless and unreliable, while the alternative option was to unchain everyone and move each one of them individually. Once again: feasible, but clumsy, slow, inefficient.


Partly true. The “use formation at start of combat” option kind of works a bit. It’s a poor substitute for individually positioning ranged characters on high ground with clear line of sight and stealthing a rouge behind enemies though. But then it’s hard to conceive a formation system that equals that level of control.

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Chaining and unchaining characters by dragging their portraits is a bit of a pain

And yet you decided for yourself this role of Devil's Advocate, defending a bad and inefficient system just for the sake of it.


Just telling you what I think.

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I think if Larian can fix those issues, there are some advantages to the chaining and unchaining thing.

I'd love for someone to list at least a couple, possibly based on a real use case, rather than some vague "Who knows, maybe in some special case, with the right star alignment, during a full moon".


Seriously? The example I gave was for literally every time you spilt the party and want to move more than one character together. I do it all the time. Don't you ever split your parties? OK, when you send a rouge to scout ahead, when you need to split them to solve a puzzle.
Posted By: Jimmhel Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/10/20 12:20 AM
I concur with the original post. Party movement is extremely cumbersome and/or aggravating. Solasta is also about to come out in early access (OCT 20), even in their pre-alpha demo from a year ago, they had party movement done very well.

I am not going to revisit all the reasons for why Larian's party control scheme is terrible, a hundred posts before me already have. If a game currently being developed by an indie team of 17 people can get this right, why is this AAA title sucking the fun out of my gameplay with a terrible implementation?
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/10/20 01:12 AM
Originally Posted by Dagless

Others have suggested that activating stealth whilst chained should activate it for everyone chained. That sounds like a sensible idea. It’s effectively how it would work by multi selecting too, so if there’s any issues with that, it would be the same issues as with what you propose.

It may be situationally an improvement, and still garbage in case where you don't want to. Especially given that when chained people are put in stealth they start (once again) to follow the lead, which may not necessarily be what you want at any given moment.
In the end we are back at the usual point that you can either suffer to the inadequacies of the system or circumvent them with incredibly laborious and boring workarounds that in literally NO scenario match in comfort and practicality other control schemes more traditional.
What's best (or worst) is that even if some fringe soul here and there may ACTUALLY be a fan of the auto-follow system, you could still have it as an option on top of a "RTS-like" control.
"Do you hate convenience, precision and practicality in your control scheme? Toggle this little auto-follow button on the UI and you'll have to move just one character like in diablo, with all the other idiots just following you like sheep". There, Everyone happy, even masochists and controller fetishists.

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If the characters are stumbing “like drunken idiots” then it’s probably because they are trying to arrange themselves without clipping through each other

Yeah, well, aside for the fact that they do it every time you rotate the man in control even in the middle of a perfectly flat square, here's the thing: "please just don't", really. Just give me direct control and stay where I put you. I know you guys are trying to help but you aren't clearly good enough at this.


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The fact that one character gets ahead before anyone else starts moving seems to be more about how the pathfinding works through the 3D world than the user interface.
Not really. Not to mention we have more modern examples than BG1 among modern 3D games.


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And maybe those games handle the movement better.


Aaaand that's precisely what we are trying to argue in favor of even here. Because we want a game with better controls. Because it would make the experience better for everyone. Even in face of your useful attitude "No, guys, it may be difficult, let's not even try".

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As far as I’m aware, Larian’s games are the only RPGs where any party member can talk to NPCs.

Your awareness is lacking. Even in BG party members could start the conversation in place of the PG. It usually made little difference except when you wanted to make use of some more favorable charisma bonus or so, since the games were not sophisticated enough to have dialogues addressing the NPC like a different character. In games like IWD or ToEE the concept of "main character" doesn't even make much sense.


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Seriously? The example I gave was for literally every time you spilt the party and want to move more than one character together. I do it all the time. Don't you ever split your parties? OK, when you send a rouge to scout ahead, when you need to split them to solve a puzzle.

I had to do to, because I was forced to work with what I had. At no moment using these controls I've ever found myself thinking "Woah, this is such a nice improvement over being able to quickly give a destination to everyone (even in, hear this, COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS!) with a couple of well targeted clicks".

Posted By: Mogan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/10/20 06:23 AM
Originally Posted by Jimmhel
I concur with the original post. Party movement is extremely cumbersome and/or aggravating. Solasta is also about to come out in early access (OCT 20), even in their pre-alpha demo from a year ago, they had party movement done very well.

I am not going to revisit all the reasons for why Larian's party control scheme is terrible, a hundred posts before me already have. If a game currently being developed by an indie team of 17 people can get this right, why is this AAA title sucking the fun out of my gameplay with a terrible implementation?

That's the $64k question. CRPGs figured this out far better 20 years ago and then kept using Baldur's Gate style controls in nearly every game in the genre since then. WHY does Baldur's Gate 3, in 2020, control so much worse than Baldur's Gate 1 in 1998?
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/10/20 12:13 PM
Originally Posted by Mogan
[quote=Jimmhel] WHY does Baldur's Gate 3, in 2020, control so much worse than Baldur's Gate 1 in 1998?

It's weird, isn't it?
Most of the times when you go back to an old game you used to love the feeling can be bittersweet: "Uh, man, I didn't remember this controlling so poorly" or "UI/Controls surely have come a long way in the last 15 years" etc, etc.
Not here. Here you have the old 20 years old game being snappy, quick and intuitive to use, and conversely its modern iteration being a mess where you have to juggle between complications and minor annoyances to get shit done.
Posted By: Dagless Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/10/20 01:19 PM
Sorry, I’m going to skip the rest, because we can go back and forth on details, which is probably distracting from my point, and this is the key point:

Originally Posted by Tuco

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And maybe those games handle the movement better.


Aaaand that's precisely what we are trying to argue in favor of even here. Because we want a game with better controls. Because it would make the experience better for everyone. Even in face of your useful attitude "No, guys, it may be difficult, let's not even try".


Yes! I agree that the movement should be improved. I’m NOT defending what we have now, and I’m NOT saying they shouldn’t try. I’ve suggested several areas that I think should be improved.

All I’m saying is that you can breakdown the movement control into 2 steps:
1. UI interface where the player indicates where they want the character or characters to go.
2. The scripts/subroutines/whatever the programming term is to move the characters into position.

The only significant thing I disagree with you (and most others apparently) is whether the jankiness is mainly coming from step 1 or 2. So much of the discussion is about the ability to multi-select characters, draw a box around characters, etc like in the good old days. But the assumption seems to be that the ability to do so would mean that characters smoothly move into position together whilst staying in formation. I’m very sceptical that that’s the case.

Try this hypothetical situation- Larian see all the requests to multi select characters, draw boxes, etc. basically copying the old BG movement UI. After they release an update with the new system you try to move a group of characters and they move one after the other just as they do now. Would you think they made a worthwhile change or would you say they spent their time making a system just as broken as before?

What I’m trying to say is that I think the biggest difference between what we have and what everybody wants isn’t the chained/unchained business. There’s no good reason the game can’t treat a group chained together the same way as a multi selected group. I think the issue is tthe code that tells characters how to move from A to B. I suspect the real reason for the following behavior is to avoid characters trying to move into the same space and crashing into each other. If so, that would make the UI difference a red herring.

As I said before, chaining and unchaining characters could really use some shortcuts as well, but that should be the easy part.
Posted By: Gaidax Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/10/20 01:52 PM
Frankly I'm also not a big fan of a "chain", neither in D:OS2 nor here. Larian has a ton of great ideas, but this, IMO, is one case they are probably wrong. I would prefer some smarter system that allows to select one part member by single click and direct only him, then maybe reset this selection some way, even if by just good ol' box selection of all portraits.

There also needs to be some tolerance to small movement by a leading character. Right now even small movement by selected character causes your whole party to often run around regrouping and what not. Relax guys, I just moved 2 centimeters towards a vendor or some NPC, no need to raise such a fuss.

Switching to another character to cast a buff makes them all go wild too there, like here in this example in this vid:

https://youtu.be/mn-ty-yGv_Q
Posted By: 00zim00 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/10/20 02:06 PM
Yeah i agree with the dreadful movement. Cant position/strafe in combat easily, cant avoid dangers, cant do basic things without chaos insuring.

Not to mention you cant even move past an ally, which your supposed to be able to do with double movement required. eg: 10ft instead of 5ft

Originally Posted by Gaidax
Frankly I'm also not a big fan of a "chain", neither in D:OS2 nor here. Larian has a ton of great ideas, but this, IMO, is one case they are probably wrong. I would prefer some smarter system that allows to select one part member by single click and direct only him, then maybe reset this selection some way, even if by just good ol' box selection of all portraits.

There also needs to be some tolerance to small movement by a leading character. Right now even small movement by selected character causes your whole party to often run around regrouping and what not. Relax guys, I just moved 2 centimeters towards a vendor or some NPC, no need to raise such a fuss.

Switching to another character to cast a buff makes them all go wild too there, like here in this example in this vid:

https://youtu.be/mn-ty-yGv_Q


Agreed
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/10/20 07:52 PM
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Frankly I'm also not a big fan of a "chain", neither in D:OS2 nor here. Larian has a ton of great ideas, but this, IMO, is one case they are probably wrong. I would prefer some smarter system that allows to select one part member by single click and direct only him, then maybe reset this selection some way, even if by just good ol' box selection of all portraits.

There also needs to be some tolerance to small movement by a leading character. Right now even small movement by selected character causes your whole party to often run around regrouping and what not. Relax guys, I just moved 2 centimeters towards a vendor or some NPC, no need to raise such a fuss.

Switching to another character to cast a buff makes them all go wild too there, like here in this example in this vid:

https://youtu.be/mn-ty-yGv_Q


All correct. And really, the fact that some of us are TRYING to adapt to this system since DOS 1 and if anything the dislike for it has only grown over the years should be a big tell for Larian.

Here's another youtuber reviewing the Early Access Build end then pointing out as a side note how much he didn't like the controls:

EDIT - Direct link since embedding doesn't seem to work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-y6mvpXQAc

It's not like youtubers are Gospel, but just to highlight how I don't even need to go and prompt people to speak against i: it's a system that many are naturally incline to dislike and criticize because it simply works poorly in most scenarios.
And even when you can make it appear somewhat functional, relatively speaking, it's still worse than the alternatives.



Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/10/20 11:13 AM
I hope there's some feedback from Larian soon. Would be nice to know if they have acknowledged that there is some serious flaws with the current way hits game handles movement and character control.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/10/20 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by Peranor
I hope there's some feedback from Larian soon. Would be nice to know if they have acknowledged that there is some serious flaws with the current way hits game handles movement and character control.

Yeah, I know it's not exactly realistic to expect someone from Larian to suddenly butt into the thread and say "We are doing exactly what you guys are asking", but I must admit I'm growing increasingly anxious to have ANY sign from the studio that they are aware these controls are in a dire need of a revamp, because the longer they stay as they are, the less likely it becomes to see the issue addressed later in production.

It's a worry even about other areas of the game, because as I said the flaws of this controls scheme act as a bad foundation to build up on even for other features (i.e. a possible increased in party size).
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/10/20 07:00 PM
Just crossed this randomly on reddit. It was a discussion about party formations:

[Linked Image]


It may not be the issue everyone talks about all the time (well, except me), but at some point one have to ask: did any topic among this community ever find a similar overwhelming consensus about a certain design decision being bad?
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/10/20 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Peranor
I hope there's some feedback from Larian soon. Would be nice to know if they have acknowledged that there is some serious flaws with the current way hits game handles movement and character control.

Yeah, I know it's not exactly realistic to expect someone from Larian to suddenly butt into the thread and say "We are doing exactly what you guys are asking", but I must admit I'm growing increasingly anxious to have ANY sign from the studio that they are aware these controls are in a dire need of a revamp, because the longer they stay as they are, the less likely it becomes to see the issue addressed later in production.

It's a worry even about other areas of the game, because as I said the flaws of this controls scheme act as a bad foundation to build up on even for other features (i.e. a possible increased in party size).



Hopefully there will at least be some kind of respons from Larian soon. Maybe a longer post or vlog where they address the more common complaints and critiques from the community.
Posted By: nation Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 19/10/20 12:34 AM
+1 i hadnt commented on this thread yet, but wanted to add a +1 to say that i agree with the others who have also posted here with concerns about how party management/movement is handled in game to get it back towards the top lists (jumping for each individual party members comes to mind). i found party movement both difficult to control and not really intuitive for a player new to larian's systems with the locking/unlocking mechanic

i would also add to this that the current operation of the camera control, mainly the locked camera/zoom angle, does party management no favors and can make it also difficult to navigate the map

some ppl also mentioned party formations above, and while i think this would be a nice feature to include (like the original bg games), i dont think party formations is as high a priority at this stage of the game - particularly if party size is set at 4, bc with 4 party members is party formation really impactful? i see it mostly as front/backline and thats it with 4 members, whereas with 6 i could see some more applicability.
Posted By: Dominemesis Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 19/10/20 04:28 AM
Originally Posted by Warlocke
I would prefer a more traditional way of selecting characters. I had one situation where I jumped somewhere with my character and my companions went running off to meet me there on foot, immediately got into combat, and I had to reload. Dragging and selecting would be much better.


This, it happened in both the Blighted Village and the Goblin camp as I tried to go around on the sides, in both situations I had to make a jump and immediately the rest of the party goes off on foot to regroup. Yes, I could remember to separate the party, but its super cumbersome, especially with as often the game wants to do some light platforming with the jump feature.
Posted By: Buttery_Mess Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 19/10/20 05:23 AM
The number of times I've carefully positioned all of my crew for an ambush only for none of my party to get a turn in the first round of combat is what annoys me. If you have one character in the fight and the rest of the party free to run around outside the combat, it's pretty immersion breaking, but I understand why, for multiplayer... but they never seem to get a turn in the first round of combat.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 19/10/20 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by nation

some ppl also mentioned party formations above, and while i think this would be a nice feature to include (like the original bg games), i dont think party formations is as high a priority at this stage of the game - particularly if party size is set at 4, bc with 4 party members is party formation really impactful? i see it mostly as front/backline and thats it with 4 members, whereas with 6 i could see some more applicability.



More than anything, party formations have hardly any reason to exist as long as your companions will keep repositioning randomly all around you at the drop of a hat.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 19/10/20 07:09 PM
Has anyone tried Solasta Crown of the Magister? If so, how does it handle group movement outside combat?
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 19/10/20 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by Peranor
Has anyone tried Solasta Crown of the Magister? If so, how does it handle group movement outside combat?

Played the demo and liked it, but I'm not a fan of that aspect personally.
It uses a strange system where every single movement even out of combat is on a grid and the party moves as a unified block.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 19/10/20 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco

Played the demo and liked it, but I'm not a fan of that aspect personally.
It uses a strange system where every single movement even out of combat is on a grid and the party moves as a unified block.


Ah, I see. Not sure if that is much better either. But i'm going try it out once im done with the BG3 EA.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 19/10/20 07:34 PM
Not to drag the OT too much, but here's a Fextralife preview if you're interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj9OKUTy7HA



Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/10/20 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Not to drag the OT too much, but here's a Fextralife preview if you're interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj9OKUTy7HA






Thanks!
The movement looks a bit strange. Like blocks as you said. But it at least look like you can select and move individual characters without messing around with chain/unchain smile
Posted By: Argonaut Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/10/20 03:13 PM
Larian party movement and control has been an issue brought up since DivOS1 and was considered critical to address during DivOS2 development but nothing came of it. I would really like to see it changed to the classic CRPG control but I can say with 99% certainty that it is not going to happen. It didn't happen for DivOS2 despite feedback, I don't see any miracles happening this time.

That said +1 please change the awful party control mechanics.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/10/20 03:18 PM
I guess our hope in this case is trying to leverage the fact that this is supposed to be a follow up to the Baldur's Gate franchise rather than a new Divinity.
Which admittedly is not that strong argument, and in my opinion completely secondary to the fact that it's simply far worse than the alternative.

If I have to be honest I'm just surprised to see that while almost no one seems to like the current system, very few of us seem to consider addressing it a priority over other overblown topics like "Rest can be spammed" (yeah, well, it was always the case even in the older games).
Posted By: Baraz Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/10/20 04:11 PM
Well, in my 8 main suggestions sent via the Launcher, it was my #1 issue (among my over 100 posts on the forums). It is a constant annoyance and it would improve the fun and playability for all.
Posted By: Skin Overbone Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/10/20 04:18 PM
you not being able to operate the system, doesn't mean it's bad. Having to get used to a system doesn't make it bad. You people just suck at adapting and if you run into trouble you start crying. Same shit every day. if you wanna ambush at the start of a fight, untether your party morons and go into turn based mode before engaging if the enemies are patrolling. LEARN THE GAME GODDAMNIT
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/10/20 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by Skin Overbone
you not being able to operate the system, doesn't mean it's bad. Having to get used to a system doesn't make it bad. You people just suck at adapting and if you run into trouble you start crying. Same shit every day. if you wanna ambush at the start of a fight, untether your party morons and go into turn based mode before engaging if the enemies are patrolling. LEARN THE GAME GODDAMNIT


Please, drop this condescending bullshit. Some of us have been playing with this "system" since it was introduced in DOS 1.
I know perfectly how to leverage it and how to operate around it at any level.

That degree of familiarity is PRECISELY what makes me dislike it even more.
As I said multiple times across the thread, if anything getting more used to this mechanic (and its limitations) only increased my bitterness toward it.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/10/20 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by Skin Overbone
you not being able to operate the system, doesn't mean it's bad. Having to get used to a system doesn't make it bad. You people just suck at adapting and if you run into trouble you start crying. Same shit every day. if you wanna ambush at the start of a fight, untether your party morons and go into turn based mode before engaging if the enemies are patrolling. LEARN THE GAME GODDAMNIT



I'm sure I could find a way to steer a car without a steering wheel as well. But it would be very annoying and has nothing to do with my skill as a driver.
Stop being an apologist for bad game mechanics. It helps absolutely no one. Not the players and not the developers.
Posted By: dunehunter Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/10/20 07:26 PM
I have to agree that the way to control party in DAO and PoE is much better than it is in DOS and BG3.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/10/20 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by Peranor

I'm sure I could find a way to steer a car without a steering wheel as well. But it would be very annoying and has nothing to do with my skill as a driver.
Stop being an apologist for bad game mechanics. It helps absolutely no one. Not the players and not the developers.

Excellent analogy, I have to say.

And I obviously agree with the conclusion. Some people seem to be under the impression than deflecting any criticism instead of addressing it will do the game a favor, when it's almost benevolent sabotage.
Posted By: Saryle Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/10/20 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by Skin Overbone
you not being able to operate the system, doesn't mean it's bad. Having to get used to a system doesn't make it bad. You people just suck at adapting and if you run into trouble you start crying. Same shit every day. if you wanna ambush at the start of a fight, untether your party morons and go into turn based mode before engaging if the enemies are patrolling. LEARN THE GAME GODDAMNIT

Don't feel so special. Everybody is able to "operate the system" but it doesn't mean it's a good system. How dare we leave our feedback during Early Access which we payed a full price for.
You people just suck at understanding that your opinion is not the right one and if you run into different opinion you start crying. Same shit every day.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/10/20 10:44 PM
Ahem.

Before bothering to respond to Skin Overbone, you might find checking his posting history worthwhile. It will save you time and effort.
Posted By: KingNothing69 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/10/20 11:47 PM
Good thing this forum has an ignore feature. Don't feed the trolls. 🙂
Posted By: JDCrenton Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/10/20 12:00 AM
Originally Posted by dunehunter
I have to agree that the way to control party in DAO and PoE is much better than it is in DOS and BG3.


That's because those games had a clear idea of what they wanted to be instead of suffering from Identity Crisis. Truly, this is a game reminiscent of the times we live in.
Posted By: ulvgaar Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/10/20 01:31 AM
Originally Posted by Skin Overbone
you not being able to operate the system, doesn't mean it's bad. Having to get used to a system doesn't make it bad. You people just suck at adapting and if you run into trouble you start crying. Same shit every day. if you wanna ambush at the start of a fight, untether your party morons and go into turn based mode before engaging if the enemies are patrolling. LEARN THE GAME GODDAMNIT


Your opinion it's like using hand screwdriver even if electric ones are in the market.

Posted By: blazerules Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/10/20 01:52 AM
The DOS1, DOS2 and now BG3 party management system is closer to using a coin instead of a screwdriver. Or maybe your fingers.
Posted By: Saryle Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/10/20 03:21 AM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Ahem.

Before bothering to respond to Skin Overbone, you might find checking his posting history worthwhile. It will save you time and effort.

Hm, usually they prefer different type of topics for trolling, what a weird choice lol. It doesn't really matter anyway. He just helped people to bring this topic up again, which is a good thing, I guess.
Posted By: Traycor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/10/20 04:42 AM
There seems to be a strange notion that fans of the BG series would know or care how controls are handled in the D:OS series. I've never played D:OS, and I have no intention of doing so. If you're going for the big time by reaching for BG3, the fans of that series should be heavily considered with the controls.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/10/20 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by Traycor
There seems to be a strange notion that fans of the BG series would know or care how controls are handled in the D:OS series. I've never played D:OS, and I have no intention of doing so. If you're going for the big time by reaching for BG3, the fans of that series should be heavily considered with the controls.



I've played both D:OS 1 and 2. And while I like them both very much I'l tell you right away that I didn't like them because of their control scheme, I liked them in spite of their control scheme smile
Posted By: Bufotenina Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/10/20 03:04 PM
I think the problem is that Larian has made its brand with the motor it used for the DOS, wich had a really awfull movement system both with the controller (I play DOS on PS4) and the mouse-keyboard.

Still they made their name with those two games and so they landed the big contract: to make the third act of a D & D based rpg that is considered a milestone in such games, the 3rd chapter of Baldur's Gate.

Obviously they're going to exploit the motor they used in the games that became their brand. I just hope they'll take account of the criticism (is annoying to have to make jump the characters one by one et so on) and try to make the movements more smooth and that the story will be engaging like that of the Baldur's Gate of the days gone or the two DOS.
Posted By: Dangerman33 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/10/20 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic.

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.


There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.

I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?




Yes I agree, it becomes hard work. For example I've carefully managed to guide my characters around say some pesky vines, and then I click on another character and all the characters run back towards that character straight back into the bloody vines! I know I can use turn based mode, but it's hard work for how often you have to do this sort of thing.

Put simply you should be able to control where your characters stand without any question or doubt, not have directing be one of the harder mechanics of the game that often leads me to having to over rest/eat after one of my characters clumsily runs back into a trap that the whole party knows is there
Posted By: Mogan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/10/20 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by Bufotenina
I think the problem is that Larian has made its brand with the motor it used for the DOS, wich had a really awfull movement system both with the controller (I play DOS on PS4) and the mouse-keyboard.

Still they made their name with those two games and so they landed the big contract: to make the third act of a D & D based rpg that is considered a milestone in such games, the 3rd chapter of Baldur's Gate.

Obviously they're going to exploit the motor they used in the games that became their brand. I just hope they'll take account of the criticism (is annoying to have to make jump the characters one by one et so on) and try to make the movements more smooth and that the story will be engaging like that of the Baldur's Gate of the days gone or the two DOS.

The bigger game, with the bigger budget is their opportunity to make that "motor" better. To improve systems they didn't have the resources to do right the first time(s) around.
Larian themselves straight up said BG3 is a AAA game with a AAA budget, and they staffed up and expanded their studio to make it. There's no excuse not to improve their tech where it's weak, and it's weak in the area of party controls.
Posted By: TimVanBeek Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/10/20 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by Dangerman33
[quote=Tuco] and then I click on another character and all the characters run back towards that character straight back into the bloody vines!


That is annoying, but just to be sure, you know that you can (and must, in this case) unlink your party members, right?

Originally Posted by Dangerman33
[quote=Tuco] ...after one of my characters clumsily runs back into a trap...


Good point. Sigh. Characters should avoid damage if there is a path that achieves that.

To the general point of the OP: DA:O has already been mentioned. In exploration mode, I really really like to navigate one character via WASD from the over the shoulder perspective (you can zoom out to the top down perspective at any time and back to the 3rd person over the shoulder one), with or without the party following. It is immersive.

Oh, and BTW, DA:O also had fog of war. Scouting was an important part of exploration and gameplay, you could not just move your camera to the back of a room or around the corner of a dungeon to check if some wizard was in an ambush position.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/10/20 08:22 PM
I seriously doubt there's ANY sort of engine limitation preventing the implementation of better controls, to be perfectly honest.
The engine is one of the most solid things about their recent products.
Posted By: tsundokugames Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/10/20 10:04 PM
Yeh, using "the engine" as some sort of argument point is always misleveraged.

the engine they built DOS2 on was very solid, but not every game needs to use the same mechanics leveraged by the engine.

they COULD change things.

they chose not to.
Posted By: cgexile Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/10/20 10:14 PM
I just watched how Solasta does it and we basically need that. It's so precise and smooth like butter.
Posted By: Doomec Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/10/20 10:52 PM
+1 to the OP. Larian, I love your games
Originally Posted by Peranor
Originally Posted by Traycor
There seems to be a strange notion that fans of the BG series would know or care how controls are handled in the D:OS series. I've never played D:OS, and I have no intention of doing so. If you're going for the big time by reaching for BG3, the fans of that series should be heavily considered with the controls.



I've played both D:OS 1 and 2. And while I like them both very much I'l tell you right away that I didn't like them because of their control scheme, I liked them in spite of their control scheme smile


This.
Posted By: Judex Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/10/20 11:41 PM
Originally Posted by Riandor
There are many issues with the system as it stands and it seems obvious that it at heart has a MP feel to it as individually the characters are fine right, by and large.


- Un-Link/Re-Link All
There are times the game wants you to use TB individual commands, but then it should make doing that convenient and easy. Step 1 is to allow us to unlink or relink Everyone at will, rather than just by dragging individuals.





I think a lot of this issues that have been brought up are valid, but I don't think they require a radical overhaul of the system, but PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, can we at least get this?

I'm sure the pathing issues are things they are already working on, as well as some tweaks, but I really hate the chaining/unchaining mechanic, and if they want to keep it, a single button toggle to chain/unchain all nearby party members would alleviate so much of the frustration (at least for me)


Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/10/20 04:11 AM
Originally Posted by Judex
[quote=Riandor]
I think a lot of this issues that have been brought up are valid, but I don't think they require a radical overhaul of the system, but PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, can we at least get this?

I still think this would be just a weak workaround circumventing the real issue (making a bad system vaguely more bearable instead of replacing it with a better one) but yeah, I've already said more than once that this would be already a significant quality of life improvement.


Quote
I'm sure the pathing issues are things they are already working on, as well as some tweaks, but I really hate the chaining/unchaining mechanic, and if they want to keep it, a single button toggle to chain/unchain all nearby party members would alleviate so much of the frustration (at least for me)

I'm honestly not that exceedingly concerned with "pathing issues". I'm not sure how you other people play, but personally I'm rarely sending my characters particularly far away with a single click.
I'd trade "perfect automated pathing" with simple controls that just make me giving orders pleasant and efficient enough any day.

On a side note, I'm kicking myself for not realizing this first, but if you are like me here's a tip that can be a lifechanger in the current build: you can burn vine traps with the firebolt cantrip instead of trying to walk on eggshells around those fuckers.



Posted By: VhexLambda Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/10/20 09:25 AM
+1 game needs party formation at least
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/10/20 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by Dangerman33

Yes I agree, it becomes hard work. For example I've carefully managed to guide my characters around say some pesky vines, and then I click on another character and all the characters run back towards that character straight back into the bloody vines! I know I can use turn based mode, but it's hard work for how often you have to do this sort of thing.

Put simply you should be able to control where your characters stand without any question or doubt, not have directing be one of the harder mechanics of the game that often leads me to having to over rest/eat after one of my characters clumsily runs back into a trap that the whole party knows is there



Yeah, I absolutley hate when that happens. And the fact that you have to "unchain" your characters or even switch to turned based mode simply to manage and avoid something trivial like that only highlight how truly messed up and ass-backwards the controls are.
Posted By: dunehunter Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/10/20 03:07 PM
Originally Posted by cgexile
I just watched how Solasta does it and we basically need that. It's so precise and smooth like butter.


That's just how old fasion crpg hand party controls, bg2, iwd, dao and etc. and +1
Posted By: Iviene Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/10/20 04:22 PM
Propably the reason party control is done in such an annoying way is the console and playing via controler there. I see no easy way to make the old (and way better ) controls handled by the controlers. At least there should be a possibility for the PC version to work as the way more comfortable party control as in most other games.

Posted By: KingNothing69 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/10/20 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by Iviene
Propably the reason party control is done in such an annoying way is the console and playing via controler there. I see no easy way to make the old (and way better ) controls handled by the controlers. At least there should be a possibility for the PC version to work as the way more comfortable party control as in most other games.

I don't think planning for controller support here is the issue. Recent games like Pillars of Eternity and Pathfinder Kingmaker have controller support and they do not have the issues that BG3 does. Diablo 3 on consoles works even better than mouse and keyboard, IMO. Plus the enhanced editions of the Infinity Engine games added controller support on console and they play wonderfully (even the touch screen support on tablets is pretty good).

I think it's a Larian problem where they created a control scheme that simply does not work as well as other established CRPGs and they're sticking to it just because it's the system they created. They need to learn to "kill their darlings" for the good of the game.
Posted By: Mogan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/10/20 04:31 AM
Originally Posted by KingNothing69
Originally Posted by Iviene
Propably the reason party control is done in such an annoying way is the console and playing via controler there. I see no easy way to make the old (and way better ) controls handled by the controlers. At least there should be a possibility for the PC version to work as the way more comfortable party control as in most other games.

I don't think planning for controller support here is the issue. Recent games like Pillars of Eternity and Pathfinder Kingmaker have controller support and they do not have the issues that BG3 does. Diablo 3 on consoles works even better than mouse and keyboard, IMO. Plus the enhanced editions of the Infinity Engine games added controller support on console and they play wonderfully (even the touch screen support on tablets is pretty good).

I think it's a Larian problem where they created a control scheme that simply does not work as well as other established CRPGs and they're sticking to it just because it's the system they created. They need to learn to "kill their darlings" for the good of the game.

I don't think any game designers good enough to make CRPGs as loved as DoS1 and 2 are would ever look at those games' weird jank-*** controls and think, "Yes, this is a better solution than the system almost every CRPG has used for the last 20 years. We've reinvented the wheel."

I think it has to be a technical limitation of their engine that only one character can ever be selected at a time, and Larian designed the controls around it.
If that IS the case, all I've got to say is that Larian told us BG3 was a AAA game, with a AAA budget, and they hired up to build it. A AAA game dev would update their tech so it didn't cause problems that could only be solved with bad game design.
Posted By: JDCrenton Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/10/20 04:57 AM
Implementing a send everything to camp button and item multiselection must also be insanely hard and "experimental" for a 2020 PC game. Don't forget this is a game that can't even pause in ESC menu screen. Definitely AAA vibes.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/10/20 06:47 AM
Originally Posted by Mogan
s, this is a better solution than the system almost every CRPG has used for the last 20 years. We've reinvented the wheel."

I think it has to be a technical limitation of their engine that only one character can ever be selected at a time, and Larian designed the controls around it.
If that IS the case, all I've got to say is that Larian told us BG3 was a AAA game, with a AAA budget, and they hired up to build it. A AAA game dev would update their tech so it didn't cause problems that could only be solved with bad game design.

I don't buy the "engine limitation" excuse for a single second.
And since I started this thread I even took my time to replay across the entire early access build specifically to check where terrain conformation would make the use of RTS-like controls a problem (at least, more a problem than it already is) and found virtually none.
There are of course occasional "choke points" where the player will be required to do some minor micro management instead of just moving the full party in formation... But then again that's true even with the current system, which is also far less suited to that purpose.

Quite frankly I think that if Larian won't address this issue is because they just don't want to, because they are too stubborn about the alleged merit of their own Frankenstein creature and, as KingNothing said, they don't want to "kill their own darling".
Not because they are facing any meaningful technical limitation.

Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/10/20 07:00 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Quite frankly I think that if Larian won't address this issue is because they just don't want to, because they are too stubborn about the alleged merit of their own Frankenstein creature and, as KingNothing said, they don't want to "kill their own darling".
Not because they are facing any meaningful technical limitation.


True... one might think that, at some point, the "limitations" of their engine might have reached a point where they though: We just can't do this title justice with our tech... but apparently not. The game is definitely worse of for that. Clunky party movement, no formations, no day/night cycle, no optional RTWP, maybe even the horrendous inventory,... all those seam to be due to what the engine is capable of.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/10/20 07:04 AM
I'm still playing the game and this mecanic is really really boring.

There are plenty of undesired movement. Sometimes it's only annoying or visually immersion breaking... But sometimes it's really a problem.

The chain/unchain mecanic is slow, your portraits are always moving, sometimes it didn't work, and it's really hard to control your characters.

I'd like being able to play unchained all the time but it's obviously not confortable atm. So I'm playing with chained characters, and it's not really better.

I really really hope they'll change their mind about that. I don't think a single person would miss this system.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/10/20 07:40 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus


I really really hope they'll change their mind about that. I don't think a single person would miss this system.


Since you mention it, funny sidenote: I posted a recap of this entire discussion on reddit (credit to our user Isaac Springsong for writing down the summary, that I imagine he will soon post even here in the new section):
https://old.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat..._control_is_a_mess_and_what_can_be_done/

Guess what? The feature is every bit as popular there as it is on this forum.
It seems also to be almost universally loathed on the Steam discussion boards.

I know they absolutely refrain from posting on their own forum, but Jesus Christ if I wouldn't be curious to listen with what reasoning the developers defend this system, no matter how overwhelmingly unpopular it is regardless of who you ask.


Posted By: robertthebard Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/10/20 08:20 AM
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Implementing a send everything to camp button and item multiselection must also be insanely hard and "experimental" for a 2020 PC game. Don't forget this is a game that can't even pause in ESC menu screen. Definitely AAA vibes.

But that's not DnD. There's no "send everything to camp" option in 5e rules. It's amazing how fast you'll sweep that argument under the carpet, isn't it?
Posted By: WarBaby2 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/10/20 08:26 AM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Implementing a send everything to camp button and item multiselection must also be insanely hard and "experimental" for a 2020 PC game. Don't forget this is a game that can't even pause in ESC menu screen. Definitely AAA vibes.

But that's not DnD. There's no "send everything to camp" option in 5e rules. It's amazing how fast you'll sweep that argument under the carpet, isn't it?


Oh please, straw is flying everywhere now... that has nothing to do with the rules system that governs character/world interactions, we're talking modern day video game conveniences, that's like complaining the game's UI doesn't adhere to pen an paper rules. If you wanna go at it like that, then the whole camp machanic is BS to begin with... and it wouldn't be the only one.
Posted By: JDCrenton Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/10/20 08:30 AM
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by JDCrenton
Implementing a send everything to camp button and item multiselection must also be insanely hard and "experimental" for a 2020 PC game. Don't forget this is a game that can't even pause in ESC menu screen. Definitely AAA vibes.

But that's not DnD. There's no "send everything to camp" option in 5e rules. It's amazing how fast you'll sweep that argument under the carpet, isn't it?


I've been reading all your posts and all you do is try and deflect any criticism to the game like a Good Larian Boy. So i don't really bother addressing anything you say since it's completely pointless. At least you try. I don't know how that mechanic would affect anyone at all tbh when it could also be just a toggable. But i can't really remove all the surface stuff and other gimmicky larian features just like that right, when the core gameplay is built around it?
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/10/20 08:34 AM
I still hope they will add WASD control with a third person camera like in DA.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/10/20 08:42 AM
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
I still hope they will add WASD control with a third person camera like in DA.

Uh, I mean, if they can do it decently that's fine, but personally I don't really give a shit about a third person camera.
I'd take decent "isometric" controls and an improved top down camera everyday, given a choice.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/10/20 08:59 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
I still hope they will add WASD control with a third person camera like in DA.

Uh, I mean, if they can do it decently that's fine, but personally I don't really give a shit about a third person camera.
I'd take decent "isometric" controls and an improved top down camera everyday, given a choice.


This should fix camera issues especially when you enter to place with more than 1 floor.
Posted By: Albi Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/10/20 01:58 PM
This needs to be added to the feedback compendium.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/10/20 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Maximuuus


I really really hope they'll change their mind about that. I don't think a single person would miss this system.


Since you mention it, funny sidenote: I posted a recap of this entire discussion on reddit (credit to our user Isaac Springsong for writing down the summary, that I imagine he will soon post even here in the new section):
https://old.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat..._control_is_a_mess_and_what_can_be_done/

Guess what? The feature is every bit as popular there as it is on this forum.
It seems also to be almost universally loathed on the Steam discussion boards.

I know they absolutely refrain from posting on their own forum, but Jesus Christ if I wouldn't be curious to listen with what reasoning the developers defend this system, no matter how overwhelmingly unpopular it is regardless of who you ask.




Interesting. The community seldom agree on things. But the utterly worthless control scheme seems to be something we all can agree on smile (well, except from the few occasional fanboys in denial)
Surely Larian can't just ignore this topic now. I'm sure they can choose to not change anything, but if so then they at least have to provide some reasoning as to why.

Originally Posted by Albi
This needs to be added to the feedback compendium.



Yes it really needs to be added there
Posted By: Redglyph Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/10/20 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic.

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.


There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.

I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?


I find it awkward at best. Including the silly system of "chain" to select the group within the party, which is an heritage of D:OS and that I've hated since the beginning for being tedious and clumsy.
Posted By: jinkaroo Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/10/20 07:59 PM
I completely agree with the OP. Formations and better selections would be so much better than this.
The amount of times Gale has ambled in front of my character and started fights is frustrating
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 24/10/20 09:12 AM
Originally Posted by Albi
This needs to be added to the feedback compendium.

I've been told that it was being added sometime ago.

Originally Posted by Peranor


Interesting. The community seldom agree on things. But the utterly worthless control scheme seems to be something we all can agree on smile (well, except from the few occasional fanboys in denial)
Surely Larian can't just ignore this topic now. I'm sure they can choose to not change anything, but if so then they at least have to provide some reasoning as to why.

It's fascinating, really.I guess that given how much I fiercely dislike this control scheme this shouldn't surprise me as much, but the thing is that when it comes to a community opinions, they always tend to be split, at least to some minimal extent.
You could probably find even people willing to argue in favor of giving Astarion's the Ronald McDonald outfit as a default, and yet it seems almost impossible to cross someone genuinely willing to praise this system.

The closest you'll get is some wishy-washy guy playing devil's advocate about the fact that MAYBE one day, with a certain amount of convoluted workaround, it COULD not suck this much. Eventually.
Bonus points for the defeatist attitude "It sucks but Larian is never going to change it anyway" or the Captain Concern "B-but it could require a certain amount of work to fix it, does anyone think of the poor devs?"
Posted By: Riandor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 24/10/20 11:06 AM
There is nothing wrong with playing devil’s advocate and trying to see things from the other side to at least try and understand.

I like your opinions Tuco, I usually agree with most of your original points, but I equally don’t mind trying to discuss compromises.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 24/10/20 11:29 AM
Originally Posted by Riandor
There is nothing wrong with playing devil’s advocate and trying to see things from the other side to at least try and understand.

Attempting to defend awful design choices without even a decent argument about what could be good about them, just for the sake of "offering an opposing voice", doesn't really do anyone any favor.
Posted By: Riandor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 24/10/20 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Riandor
There is nothing wrong with playing devil’s advocate and trying to see things from the other side to at least try and understand.

Attempting to defend awful design choices without even a decent argument about what could be good about them, just for the sake of "offering an opposing voice", doesn't really do anyone any favor.

I’m not defending anything.
It’s a system that at least on pc doesn’t hold up, I’ve always said as such. However, given I don’t work for Larian and don’t know official reasons, I simply take the stand point of “they must have their reasons, so IF it isn’t going to be scrapped, what else could be done?”

I’ve already given my proper preference, but there’s equally little benefit of filling a thread with “Larian’s current solution sucks EOM.” Over and over.

The point of discussion and debate is to look at small changes through to extreme changes and provide food for thought. There is no one correct answer, even on this topic.
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 24/10/20 01:12 PM
As things stands right now:

-Party movement
SOLASTA x10
-Engaging turnbased detailed 5e gameplay
SOLASTA
-Random generated characters are voice acted and having believable story driven conversations with each other and it works flawlessly and fluidly
SOLASTA
-Day/night cycles, darkness rules, live dice rolls, cool little details from P&P
SOLASTA


-Graphics/UI/Sound effects
BG3...but....
-Character creation/content
BG3...for now...
-Cringy unlikable companions
BG3 (depends how old you are...)
-SHMS [Snowflake hardcore multiracial sex]
BG3
-Epic storyline
BG3 or SOLASTA (both are in EA)
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 24/10/20 01:59 PM
Yeah, Solasta's party movement currently IS better than BG3 (talk about setting the bar low...) but it seems weird to me to point it as a virtuous example when it's actually still quite shitty and there are countless games doing better than both.

You don't even need to stick to RPGs, specifically. I already mentioned Shogun Shadow Tactics and/or Desperados 3 as examples of games that manage multiple characters control leagues better.
Posted By: KingNothing69 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 24/10/20 03:17 PM
I've started playing the Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous alpha. Besides having much more fun with the character creator, it was a relief to play with logical keyboard and mouse controls and party selection. The camera feels much friendlier as well. Solasta isn't the only RPG from a smaller development team doing certain things better than BG3 right now. 😜
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 24/10/20 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by KingNothing69
I've started playing the Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous alpha. Besides having much more fun with the character creator, it was a relief to play with logical keyboard and mouse controls and party selection. The camera feels much friendlier as well. Solasta isn't the only RPG from a smaller development team doing certain things better than BG3 right now. 😜

I'll ask again, since when another user mentioned I couldn't get an answer: is there currently a way to buy your way into the alpha?
Posted By: KingNothing69 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 24/10/20 03:41 PM
Yes, it was a $15 add-on.
Posted By: Rhobar121 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 24/10/20 03:46 PM
The system would not be so tragic if you could give orders.
Posted By: Redglyph Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 24/10/20 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by KingNothing69
I've started playing the Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous alpha. Besides having much more fun with the character creator, it was a relief to play with logical keyboard and mouse controls and party selection. The camera feels much friendlier as well. Solasta isn't the only RPG from a smaller development team doing certain things better than BG3 right now. 😜

Isn't that the same as most CRPG, NWN1/2, Solasta, ...? A simple click to select just one character, SHIFT to add, the mouse can draw a rectange to include what's inside.
It's simple, intuitive, much easier and faster than the Larian's way. No need to make it more complicated smile


Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by KingNothing69
I've started playing the Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous alpha. Besides having much more fun with the character creator, it was a relief to play with logical keyboard and mouse controls and party selection. The camera feels much friendlier as well. Solasta isn't the only RPG from a smaller development team doing certain things better than BG3 right now. 😜

I'll ask again, since when another user mentioned I couldn't get an answer: is there currently a way to buy your way into the alpha?

Originally Posted by KingNothing69

Yeah, found that pretty funny that they'd make pay to help them test. It's even worse than the BG3 deal.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 25/10/20 03:16 AM
Originally Posted by KingNothing69


OT



Man, I impulse-bought this anticipating to waste some hours on it but I didn't realize that the turn-based mode wasn't implemented in alpha yet.

I'm not enjoying the RtwP combat a single bit.
Even in Kingmaker the turn-based mod was the thing that made me finally enjoy the game after three failed attempts to get into it.

And now I'll stop dragging my own thread into a prolonged off-topic. Sorry.

Posted By: Riandor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 25/10/20 08:08 AM
Originally Posted by Redglyph
Originally Posted by KingNothing69
I've started playing the Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous alpha. Besides having much more fun with the character creator, it was a relief to play with logical keyboard and mouse controls and party selection. The camera feels much friendlier as well. Solasta isn't the only RPG from a smaller development team doing certain things better than BG3 right now. 😜

Isn't that the same as most CRPG, NWN1/2, Solasta, ...? A simple click to select just one character, SHIFT to add, the mouse can draw a rectange to include what's inside.
It's simple, intuitive, much easier and faster than the Larian's way. No need to make it more complicated smile


Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by KingNothing69
I've started playing the Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous alpha. Besides having much more fun with the character creator, it was a relief to play with logical keyboard and mouse controls and party selection. The camera feels much friendlier as well. Solasta isn't the only RPG from a smaller development team doing certain things better than BG3 right now. 😜

I'll ask again, since when another user mentioned I couldn't get an answer: is there currently a way to buy your way into the alpha?

Originally Posted by KingNothing69

Yeah, found that pretty funny that they'd make pay to help them test. It's even worse than the BG3 deal.


Not that I want to defend the system, before Tuco chastises me again ;-) but logical “keyboard” controls (or lack of) are from what I can tell, the crux of the design plan.

All the things I would like to see change all revolve around these very concepts these other games have, but that takes the system further away from being controller friendly.

Thus the proper response in our minds would be to have separate control systems based upon system, but I’m. It convinced Larian want to go down this path. Still, it’s EA let’s hope it changes.
Posted By: Sharet Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 25/10/20 09:27 AM
I doubt I can give any contribute at all after 12 pages of posts, but hey, here I am.
I understand the basic reasoning behind this system, it was built thinking of a party of four friends playing the game together, with each one individually controlling ONE character. This system allow the maximum degree of freedom if you control just ONE character but becomes sub-par as soon as even one player is forced to use more that ONE at a time.
Since I suspect the game is going to be played by a full party of four people just a fraction of the times, this means the current system will results flawed most of the them.

It was always awful, both in DOS and DOS2, but at least you didn't have to jump frequently. Now you have to, and it would not be a problem if not for this system.

If I want to jump over a broken section of a bridge I must, in sequence:
1) Taking out of the chain every character, otherwise those linked together will occupy all the avaiable landing space on the other side trying to reach me;
2) Find a valid spot to jump, even more time consuming for low-STR characters;
3) Make the jump;
4) Move away in order to make room for another one to jump;
5) Repeat the above for each character;
6) Link them back together.

It's just tedious, not to mention all the problems related to the stealth mechanic.

I understand Larian wants to innovate the genre, and they did in many aspects, but this doesn't mean to get rid of well established mechanics just for the sake of it. Even because everyone complained about this since DOS, so it shouldn't be news for them!
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 25/10/20 09:31 AM
Originally Posted by Riandor


Not that I want to defend the system, before Tuco chastises me again ;-) but logical “keyboard” controls (or lack of) are from what I can tell, the crux of the design plan.

All the things I would like to see change all revolve around these very concepts these other games have, but that takes the system further away from being controller friendly.

Thus the proper response in our minds would be to have separate control systems based upon system, but I’m. It convinced Larian want to go down this path. Still, it’s EA let’s hope it changes.


Lots of PC games handles two different control schemens without problem though. One for mose keyboard and one for controller. Changing the mouse keyboard controls in to something more similar to the old BG games doesnt mean that the control scheme for the controller needs to be changed in to that as well.
Posted By: Riandor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 25/10/20 10:45 AM
Oh it’s totally doable, of course it is.
My point I suppose is more that there is a whole list of improvements on top of just the chain vs select argument. Like handling spell casting, chatting, etc... etc...

Once you start, then I think you would end up with an overhaul just for PC, and for the record, I’m all for that. I’m just not sure Larian are.
Posted By: Mogan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 25/10/20 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by Riandor
Oh it’s totally doable, of course it is.
My point I suppose is more that there is a whole list of improvements on top of just the chain vs select argument. Like handling spell casting, chatting, etc... etc...

Once you start, then I think you would end up with an overhaul just for PC, and for the record, I’m all for that. I’m just not sure Larian are.

BG3's a PC only game right now. More importantly, Larian claims BG3 is a AAA game with a AAA budget, and they staffed up to build it. If their tech has been weak for two previous games now, and those projects were too small to afford improving it, now's their chance. If the tiny dev team building Solasta can figure out controls and UI that work way better than BG3's, there's really no excuse for Larian to continue using this awkward, clunky system they've stuck with for over six years now. And there's definitely no excuse for them to hamstring their primary launch platform for the sake of ports that may come later.
Posted By: Clawfoot Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 26/10/20 01:19 AM
The chain/unchain thing is painfully awful. It's like they're stuck together with duct tape and you have to aggressively rip them apart because the mechanic itself feels so unfinished. It's a nightmare to change the character order, it's like trying to stack magnets with their poles reversed. And it did that throughout D:OS as well, so it's not something I expect to change post-EA. I vastly prefer having a 'select all' hotkey like in the IE games. It's so much smoother and doesn't require constant fiddling around.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 26/10/20 09:09 AM
Originally Posted by Clawfoot
It's a nightmare to change the character order, it's like trying to stack magnets with their poles reversed.


I have to say this a fitting description. That's exactly how it feels.
Then again, "party order" is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to issues tied to this control scheme, so it's not like solving this would make it overall particularly likable anyway.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 26/10/20 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by Riandor


Once you start, then I think you would end up with an overhaul just for PC, and for the record, I’m all for that. I’m just not sure Larian are.



I truly hope they are though
Posted By: UnknownEvil Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 26/10/20 02:09 PM
Even not having read the whole thread, i have to agree. I was trying to hide a character before a fight to make him sneak attack from stealth. So i unchained him from the party to move and hide him. He did not even join the fight and when i sneaked in he joined the fight but was no longer stealthed.
The party/character management in and out of combat needs some serious work.
Posted By: Nagfar Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 26/10/20 03:12 PM
Originally Posted by Clawfoot
The chain/unchain thing is painfully awful. It's like they're stuck together with duct tape and you have to aggressively rip them apart because the mechanic itself feels so unfinished. It's a nightmare to change the character order, it's like trying to stack magnets with their poles reversed. And it did that throughout D:OS as well, so it's not something I expect to change post-EA. I vastly prefer having a 'select all' hotkey like in the IE games. It's so much smoother and doesn't require constant fiddling around.


+1
Posted By: Ole Draco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 26/10/20 03:22 PM
Yeah, miss the formation thing that DOS 2 had
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 26/10/20 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by Ole Draco
Yeah, miss the formation thing that DOS 2 had


Yeah... Well. No.
Of all the formation systems I experienced across several games, the one used in DOS 2 is the one I "miss" the least.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 27/10/20 07:22 PM
I was hoping to hear something, anything from Larian about this when I read the patch notes today. But alas...
Posted By: KingNothing69 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 27/10/20 08:20 PM
Yeah this week's Larian update was underwhelming. It's good to see bug fixes, but I'm much more interested in the team's plans to fix their game and make it better than I am on seeing demographics for who's banging who.
Posted By: Redglyph Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 28/10/20 08:26 AM
An improvement could include several steps,
- Remove this magnetic chain system, which is awkward, and replace it with the proved system that is describe earlier and which is used everywhere else.
- More than one sub-group is not necessary, really.
- Each character should see where the next destination is, and wait until the character who should be in front, is in front, before starting to move (instead of moving back and forths to stay behind the character who should be in front, that's what generates those cahotic situations).
- Decide whether characters that are not in the group spawn spontaneously back into it when entering a new area, or are left behind.
- Possibly add a formation option like in Pathfinder, to allow different group formations depending on the situation (V, column, abreast, ...). But it's rare I'm using it, I don't think it's necessary.

Originally Posted by KingNothing69
Yeah this week's Larian update was underwhelming. It's good to see bug fixes, but I'm much more interested in the team's plans to fix their game and make it better than I am on seeing demographics for who's banging who.

I must say I don't care much about all this romance stuff, it's really overdone, and it feels artificial and unnecessary. It's nice there are many (other) interactions between the party members though, that adds to the story which is not much developed otherwise. Other RPGs like PoE put more accent on the story itself, to each its own I guess. As long as there's something else than fights (and banging), it's nice to have variety and some depth to the game.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 28/10/20 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by Redglyph
An improvement could include several steps,
- Remove this magnetic chain system, which is awkward, and replace it with the proved system that is describe earlier and which is used everywhere else.
- More than one sub-group is not necessary, really.
- Each character should see where the next destination is, and wait until the character who should be in front, is in front, before starting to move (instead of moving back and forths to stay behind the character who should be in front, that's what generates those cahotic situations).
- Decide whether characters that are not in the group spawn spontaneously back into it when entering a new area, or are left behind.
- Possibly add a formation option like in Pathfinder, to allow different group formations depending on the situation (V, column, abreast, ...). But it's rare I'm using it, I don't think it's necessary.

Originally Posted by KingNothing69
Yeah this week's Larian update was underwhelming. It's good to see bug fixes, but I'm much more interested in the team's plans to fix their game and make it better than I am on seeing demographics for who's banging who.

I must say I don't care much about all this romance stuff, it's really overdone, and it feels artificial and unnecessary. It's nice there are many (other) interactions between the party members though, that adds to the story which is not much developed otherwise. Other RPGs like PoE put more accent on the story itself, to each its own I guess. As long as there's something else than fights (and banging), it's nice to have variety and some depth to the game.


Maybe I'm missing some nuance here, because your explanation is a bit convoluted, but... aren't you essentially re-proposing what most of us have been asking since the beginning of the thread (and before)?
Posted By: Redglyph Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 29/10/20 08:31 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Maybe I'm missing some nuance here, because your explanation is a bit convoluted, but... aren't you essentially re-proposing what most of us have been asking since the beginning of the thread (and before)?


Isn't everyone re-proposing what was said before? As you said elsewhere, that's what forums do wink I had already proposed that in another thread a few weeks ago, and so did others. Since Larian doesn't respond or even tag the threads, and since we don't know whether they read them or not, I guess this repeating will go on for a while.

But yes, just trying to summarize the different points in one post, really (and responding to your original question in the first post). It's not convoluted.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 30/10/20 08:35 AM
Originally Posted by Redglyph

Isn't everyone re-proposing what was said before?

Yeah, but they didn't come in the thread saying basically something among the lines of "What if we do this instead?" just to list the exact same thing.
Which is the part that had me confused. grin

Quote
It's not convoluted.

I think you misunderstood me there.
What I found a bit... convoluted was some of the wording you chose to describe the controls, not the idea in itself.
Like, your last two points for instance could be summarized with "the party should move in formation", which once again is exactly what any other RTS or game of this type does.
Posted By: Redglyph Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 30/10/20 10:44 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
What I found a bit... convoluted was some of the wording you chose to describe the controls, not the idea in itself.
Like, your last two points for instance could be summarized with "the party should move in formation", which once again is exactly what any other RTS or game of this type does.


Only the last point is about formation, and by that I mean the relative position of each character within the group. Some games allow to change it (V, column, and so on are the examples I gave, and are typical combat formations). So yes, the party should move in formation, that's for granted, no need to mention it. Should we be able to change the formation, I'm not sure.

The point before last is not about formation, it's about the group, I thought the description was clear but to elaborate: in some games, when one of the group changes area, or even passes some trigger, the other characters respawn too and the group counts all the characters again. For example in Kingmaker, when you don't select everyone and enter a cave, everyone spawns in the cave nevertheless. I'm not sure how Larian does that in BG3 anymore, in D:OS2 it wasn't the case, sub-groups remained at their respective locations, it feels more realistic.

The third item is about how characters move. When you select another character in Larian games, he/she becomes the "leader of formation" and all other characters do crazy stuff, running all over the place to fall back into the new formation. Doing so usually have them walk into fire, trigger traps and all sort of nonsense, it's obviously not what the player wants. So they should stay still when the selection changes.


Anyway, scratch that. To keep it simple, I just hate how they do it right now with the chain gizmo because it's not easy to manipulate, it's unnecessary, and leads to side-effects like the characters running in all directions when the group leader changes. With the shift-select all other games offer, it's simple, there's no "leader", and it's intuitive.
Posted By: Dogmatis Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 30/10/20 11:19 AM
You were pretty spot on with your tittle smirk

There does need to be a formation system, but certainly not one like DOS2. It would be nice to be able to select how my characters run along, in a straight line or some other formation (of course that is not a solution to pathing by itself).

Sometimes a character takes a random path and I have to quickly try to select the correct F key, and sometimes the character just doesn't respond and is dead set on running right at an enemy to start combat or run into a trap.

It doesn't help that Larian decided to put traps/vines/poison clouds on a lot of locations. The vines so far have been the worst for me.

The worst instance by far was at the wet lands were Kagha was suppose to have a meeting by the tree with Astarion in my party, trying to keep him away from vines and water at the same time. Absolutely dreadful.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 30/10/20 11:36 AM
Originally Posted by Dogmatis
You were pretty spot on with your title smirk

Well, typo aside.
But by the time I noticed it it was already too late to edit it.

By the way, I just finished play the hag questline again and I swear that passing that idiotic part with the poison traps and platforms, with your companions running back and forth over the poison clouds every time you try to swap control between them (or in alternative asking you to pass the entire section with one character at the time) never stops being absolutely fucking annoying at best, when not downright infuriating.


Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 02/11/20 05:40 PM
Agree to agree. Chain/unchain is the worst system in any party-based RPG. Just do it like every other game, please?
Posted By: The Ranger Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 02/11/20 06:44 PM
Yes, I agree to all that was said before... even if you managed to unchain your party members, you have a chance to accidently give silly orders while picking one ore the other. Had the case e.g., that I made my group jump one after the other over a fire and three were done already. While trying to pick the remaining member, the 3rd in row turn round to walk back and die... Or you jump with the leading character and the others pick a detour instead of a jump and run into the next group or trap.

Anyway... just try once to position three characters in favourable positions before kicking of the fight with the last remaining member. There is a more than big chance that you either mess up the positioning because of the complicated handling or that you realize that you're to far of to join the fight in reasonable time in the end.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 03/11/20 12:31 AM
Body blocking by party members needs to go.

I would like to see them use the ghost animation (like currently appears now with movement preview) if characters have to pass through each other.

This would be preferable to showing PCs walk through each other with clipping of the full models and such.

When a PC enters another PC's space for movement, it would be cool if the active selected PC had their normal animations and the inactive PC who's space is being passed-through went ghost animation.

This would eliminate a lot of pathing problems and jump fails right there just by ditching the body block within the party.

Blocking for hostiles and neutrals is fine, but friendlies it would be good to handle the same way as PCs. As long as we aren't ending the turn inside another characters circle of space, they should just kinda phase through to the spot where we want them if its within movement range.

Probably the top QoL feature for me, along with targeting from portraits, and better spellcasting/hotbar UI.

Posted By: Mogan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/11/20 04:40 PM
^Targeting from portraits is another big one.

When it comes to UI and party controls, I think BG3's problem is that Larian hasn't designed them for a D&D CRPG, they've just tried to adapt the UI and controls from Original Sin, and those aren't adequate. They need to go back to the drawing board on this stuff and re-design after looking at how other D&D and D&D adjacent CRPGs have have handled turning D&D into a playable, understandable video game. Players need all the information that would be on their tabletop character sheet surfaced and at their fingertips with breakdowns for folks who aren't familiar with 5e. They also need to be able to quickly and easily manage a party of four characters, both moving them around the map and sorting/using their various abilities and items.
This whole game feels like a D&D mod for Original Sin 2, not a game designed from the ground up to be Baldur's Gate 3.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/11/20 04:43 PM
Targeting from portraits is something that Larina did in DOS 2. I'm sure it will come here as well.
That's arguably the least of my concerns about future controls, frankly.
Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/11/20 05:22 PM
I put this issue at the top of my list of feedback requests.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/11/20 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
I put this issue at the top of my list of feedback requests.



Yeah, if they're going to listen to just one complaint when it comes to game mechanics I hope it's this one.
Posted By: Mogan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 05/11/20 04:14 AM
Originally Posted by Peranor
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
I put this issue at the top of my list of feedback requests.



Yeah, if they're going to listen to just one complaint when it comes to game mechanics I hope it's this one.

We should keep bumping this topic then. There's virtually no disagreement that the party controls are bad, so let's keep this under Larian's nose.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 05/11/20 08:56 AM
Removing the body block within the party I think is really the first and easiest step they could take to eliminate half the problems. It would make it so we aren't totally reliant on a jump action, just to path a PC to a spot that would otherwise be within the movement range were it not for other party member's body blocking. Clicking a spot on the map the PC should move the shortest distance possible, since according to the rules they can pass through another PC's space, as long as they aren't ending their movement within that space. This should apply outside of combat and within combat too. Right now movement in combat is waisted trying to run around other PCs, or trying to reach the specific spot selected on ground which then shows as unreachable or only jump to reach because of the body block. Kind of silly to imagine a melee with medieval weapons where everyone has to stay outside of each other's person space at all times. Like how would that work in the real lol?

Next step would be to just prevent the other PCs from shifting all over the place when pathing movement outside of combat. Half of this jogging around in circles from the unselected PCs I think would disappear once the body block within the party was nixed. Another complimentary feature would be a quick toggle to auto unchain via a button, instead of this awkward drag and drop method. Outside of combat using unchaining or dragging off to try and position a party leader position is just very tedious.

Formations in a party of 4 are obviously somewhat less interesting than formations for a full party of 5/6, but even with 4 you still have a couple basics. These should at least include the wedge, the square, the T (which is basically an inverted wedge), a gamma type formation (similar to the T formation, but with one flank strengthened rather than the middle) and then just the straight line for walking in single file.
Basically these kinds of shapes...

△ ▯ T Γ I

The last would be particularly helpful for scouting, and for dungeon crawling where you only want 1 PC walking point due to possible traps, or combat encounters, or hazards on the ground etc.






Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/11/20 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Removing the body block within the party I think is really the first and easiest step they could take to eliminate half the problems

Can't really say I agree.
While body block shouldn't be there for allies (even tabletop rules claim players should be able to pass on a square occupied by an ally as far you don't stop there) this kind of workaround doesn't come even remotely close to address most of the other issues listed across this entire thread, with particular focus on the problems related on making group movement and more granular coordinate maneuvers quicker and more intuitive to put in practice.
Posted By: Surface R Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/11/20 10:57 PM
Just to repeat my solution. Group - ungroup button. When the party is ungrouped everything happens individually, when everyone are connected everything happens for everyone. Sneaking, jumping, movement. Whatever.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/11/20 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by Surface R
Just to repeat my solution. Group - ungroup button. When the party is ungrouped everything happens individually, when everyone are connected everything happens for everyone. Sneaking, jumping, movement. Whatever.


This was suggested since the beginning of the thread (I suggested it myself as a bare-minimum alternative to a completely redesigned control scheme, which would be preferable) but only as a partial workaround.
Because it addresses only a general annoyance (having to group/ungroup characters individually) but not the core of the issue (1. being unable to select multiple units at once and to give them group commands).
Posted By: Pah Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/11/20 01:29 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic.

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.


There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.

I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?




I am with you, totally!
Posted By: Surface R Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/11/20 01:31 AM
I dunno... seems to me the one click group all - everything done as a group from that single click on, would pretty much cover that functionality.

There aint no group commands in the game mechanics so if you mean being able to select two and issue a single command to both, that just doesn't exist.
And it didnt exist in originals either.

Once the fighting starts you issue orders to each character individually anyway.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/11/20 02:07 AM
Uh, yes, it DID exist in the originals, actually.
And in every other more recent title that borrowed the same RTS-styled control scheme.

You could absolutely select any arbitrary number of units in BG1, 2 etc and give to your selection generic commands (move on click, stop, attack, enter stealth, etc).

Both in and out of combat, given that the two modes weren’t even strictly distinct and shared the exact same controls.
Posted By: Surface R Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/11/20 12:52 PM
No reason why you shouldnt also be able to do that in this scheme. Those are the very basic commands and needed relatively rarely. Most of the time you select individual characters and issue commands for them. I was thinking about anything more complicated which is individual for each character.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/11/20 01:37 PM
Just to throw in my 5c, I hate the chain follow system. Even if it would actually be smooth and easy to use, I would still hate the principles of it.

Classic BG controls are much better. Only selected characters move. Marquee select multiple characters. Most importantly a keybind for select all.

Add a follow toggle where unselected characters follow currently selected character(s) so we can still have this choice as well.

And add auto jump.
Posted By: ash elemental Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 09/11/20 05:11 AM
Adding my vote here. I just went through the Underdark and it was an awful experience trying to manage the party in some of the areas there. It's like the game is lacking basic functionality you get in other party-based cRPGs.
Posted By: Mogan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 09/11/20 05:40 AM
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Adding my vote here. I just went through the Underdark and it was an awful experience trying to manage the party in some of the areas there. It's like the game is lacking basic functionality you get in other party-based cRPGs.

Not just other party-based CRPGs, but other party-based CRPGs from 20+ years ago. It's ridiculous that Baldur's Gate 3 controls this poorly.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/11/20 01:23 AM
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Adding my vote here. I just went through the Underdark and it was an awful experience trying to manage the party in some of the areas there. It's like the game is lacking basic functionality you get in other party-based cRPGs.

There's a lot to like about the Underdark, but the mixture of terrible controls and terrible "super-deforming" camera made the experience a bit of a nightmare at times.
Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/11/20 05:41 AM
It could use some improvement, but it didn't ruin the game for me. I was still having a great time.
Posted By: AlanC9 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/11/20 12:38 AM
After playing through the burning inn again, yeah, I'm not a fan of the current control setup. I don't mind environmental hazards, but this just felt like I was fighting the interface, not the environment.
Posted By: LoneSky Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/11/20 03:57 AM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
It could use some improvement, but it didn't ruin the game for me. I was still having a great time.


True, but it's one of those bad things that can be fixed without firing the whole studio and rewriting the code.
KiSS, very old truth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

quote from there, but the page explains it better "The KISS principle states that most systems work best if they are kept simple rather than made complicated; therefore, simplicity should be a key goal in design, and unnecessary complexity should be avoided." ^

"Leonardo da Vinci's "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication", Shakespeare's "Brevity is the soul of wit", Mies Van Der Rohe's "Less is more", Bjarne Stroustrup's "Make Simple Tasks Simple!", or Antoine de Saint Exupéry's "It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away". Colin Chapman, the founder of Lotus Cars, urged his designers to "Simplify, then add lightness". Heath Robinson machines and Rube Goldberg's machines, intentionally overly-complex solutions to simple tasks or problems, are humorous examples of "non-KISS" solutions.

A variant – "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler" – is attributed to Albert Einstein, although this may be an editor's paraphrase of a lecture he gave"



Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/11/20 03:59 AM
Can it be fixed easily? I have no idea how hard it would be to change the control scheme. I want it to be changed, but maybe it's actually really difficult for some reason?
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/11/20 04:04 AM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Can it be fixed easily? I have no idea how hard it would be to change the control scheme. I want it to be changed, but maybe it's actually really difficult for some reason?

Well, if its' difficult they better start working on it immediately, because it's desperately needed regardless of its ease of implementation.
Posted By: LoneSky Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/11/20 04:11 AM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Can it be fixed easily? I have no idea how hard it would be to change the control scheme. I want it to be changed, but maybe it's actually really difficult for some reason?


I could forgive them for that UI and play the game despite that problem, if it's really that hardcoded or something and the coder left the company and nobody can fix it or something... but if it's not, they would help themselves, in the long run, by removing CONS to this game. Or just make another UI as well and and allow us to choose, maybe this fancy UI will be preferred by some as well (because it's fun playing with those chains 2-3 times, I enjoyed it -- but not anymore smile
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/11/20 05:28 AM
Even if it's hard they have to do something.

I was trying something Yesterday in the game (because I'm not really playing anymore atm) and hell... I wanted to climb a ladder....

Ok the first climb the ladder. I didn't move him too much because it was on a small platform so no one followed. So I had to click the others companions and I forget to "disband"... The first one go down, then everyone finally climb that ladder...

This is really cheap party mouvement management.
If this game is really ambitious, they have to change this even worse mechanics than 20yo mechanics.
Posted By: Martyn Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/11/20 09:03 AM
My 2c:

1) Managing the Chain

Like so many other people in this thread, I think managing the chained party order is a pain in the butt.

When I want to change the party's march order, I spend far more time fighting the interface than such a simple task should take. If I want to move the character in position 3 to position 2 (say), it should be as easy as putting the mouse pointer over the 3rd character tile and rolling the scroll wheel up one click, or pressing "2".

I want a single one-click command to ungroup everyone. Have one button just above the party tiles that toggles between "Group" / "Ungroup". When the party groups, it should be to the location of the currently selected character, making the other 3 walk to him.

If I want to ungroup just one character, I should be able to do so easily. It bewilders me that when I'm processing a character's turn, e.g. having him cast a spell then move away, and when I get to the movement part and I need to ungroup him, when I right-click his tile "ungroup" isn't an option (why the hell not?). I have to select any other character, right click the one whose move I want to finish, ungroup him, reselect him, then move him the way I want. (I know I could also drag his tile to the right to 'break' his chain, but nonetheless, WTF are Larian thinking?)

2) Characters Moving in a Chain

So many annoying effects...

I click a location for the party to walk to, on the way the lead character walks into a trap, he keeps walking and the other three members of the party keep walking into the same trap. Even if I'd rolled "3" for all their Intelligence stats, they should've been smarter than this!

If one character enters "sneak" mode, and he sets off to do rogue things, and something happens that takes him out of sneak mode (e.g. he sets off a trap), the other three characters immediately start walking to his location (sometimes walking into the same trap too), usually kicking off a combat when I was absolutely not prepared for it.

At the end of a battle, the ground can have some dangerous patches (e.g. pools of acid, burning oil, etc.). When a character kills the final enemy, the 3 non-selected characters immediately walk to the selected character's location, often taking damage and even being killed by it. This is particularly stupid because they could have easily walked around the dangerous patches, but the path-choosing code had them take the shortest route regardless of how damaging it'd be. At the least, when combat ends have the characters stand still where they are, leaving it to the player to tell them where to move. (Characters choosing damage-dealing routes when safe routes are available is a frequent event, e.g. if I want to jump Asterion over running water, and ask him to jump to the far side of the stream, instead of walking to a dry place that's in range for him to jump from, he'll walk straight toward the destination -- often into the water -- and then jump as soon as he gets within jump range).

The annoyance of unintelligent chained movement is made even worse by Larian's determination to make 'clever' terrains, so we get things like the utterly stupid, poison-gas traps on the way to the Hag's room. I like my D&D games to have at least some degree of reasonableness ("Could the hag and her servants, visitors, suppliers, etc. operate out of a lair that had those traps?"), but in DOS and BG3 Larian often design 'interesting' environments that are unbelievable even in a magical milieu. Having a chain of characters walk unintelligently through areas of terrain that are rigged with incredibly inconvenient traps is a combination that makes for very annoying game play.

I greatly dislike save-scumming in any game, and am very reluctant to load a previous save just because something went poorly. Unfortunately I'm now a constant save-scummer in BG3 because my party members keep doing utterly stupid things just because they are 'chained' together (or because Larian built utterly ridiculous terrain). My enjoyment of the game takes a significant hit every time I reload. I go so tired of this in DOSII that I gave up on that game not even a third of the way through. I suspect BG3 will end up annoying me so much I never play it all the way through either. At the end of a hard day's work, I just want some fun entertainment; I don't want to fight the UI to stop it killing my characters in terrain riddled with ridiculous traps.
Posted By: ash elemental Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/11/20 10:18 AM
"Fighting the interface" is the probably the best description of the problem. The game's interface should not be an obstacle to playing the game, yet this is how it feels now.
Posted By: Grantig Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/11/20 05:59 PM
I liked it, when I clicked on the path in the swamp region and Astarion decided to run around a hill through water (which hurt him) and set of every trap in the way, in order to get to the point he wanted to stand in. Aside of the fact that visually it seemed he could easily just get there the intended way.

Reminds me of BG 1/2, where sometimes characters raced off through the entire dungeon, to get to their position, just because!

At least in this BG 3 is very close to BG 1 and 2.
Posted By: nation Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/11/20 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by Grantig
I liked it, when I clicked on the path in the swamp region and Astarion decided to run around a hill through water (which hurt him) and set of every trap in the way, in order to get to the point he wanted to stand in. Aside of the fact that visually it seemed he could easily just get there the intended way.

Reminds me of BG 1/2, where sometimes characters raced off through the entire dungeon, to get to their position, just because!

At least in this BG 3 is very close to BG 1 and 2.
op can correct me if im wrong, but i wanna say this thread is about party control (ie chain v unchaining, multiple npc 'jumps', etc) of members not necessarily the ai path navigation - in this regard larians bg game is very much different from bg1/2 (more like dos1/2 imo - which admittedly im not a fan of, lol), but i do also think that the pathing could use some tweaking too...so add it to the list of feedback that larian allegedly will 'consider'
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/11/20 06:32 PM
Yeah, the pathfinding is a secondary, incident topic, not the main point.

Beside, who the hell let characters run around "across an entire dungeon" because of pathfinding in BG2 when a single click could stop the issue entirely?
Saying that this makes BG2 and BG3 similar is disingenuous at best.
Posted By: Riandor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/11/20 12:40 AM
Pathfinding has always been an issue in these types of games.
Heck in the BG series my play through are littered with reloading because my group didn’t follow properly and walked across a deadly trap or two!!

Surfaces just aggravate the situation. I agree it’s a secondary argument here though.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/11/20 01:15 AM
I never found pathfinding a meaningful issue in the old games because I'm never controlling my party in ways that requires an extensive reliance on pathfinding to begin with.

The AI is systematically turned off. Everyone is just supposed to move where I say and /or auto-attack with the default weapon unless I order otherwise and that's pretty much it.
I want my characters to move toward the selected spot in the proximity or to walk across the area together as a party. I'm never sending them half a map away without even checking what's on the path.

It's a different matter in BG3 precisely because characters are neither comfortable to move individually "selecting the exact spot" (once again, because it requires to chain/unchain them or swap to turn-based mode) nor reliable to manage as a party, with their tendency to move on their own and dance around the selected character.
Posted By: Riandor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/11/20 07:50 AM
No it certainly wasn’t a big issue in the previous games, but it was there if you weren’t careful.

Obviously here it’s worse precisely because of the stupid chain function and your party constantly rearranging itself and the often large amount of long lasting surface effects or permanent hazards.

It’s definitely fair to say that if you are going to add obstacles and surface hazards, then the controls and pathfinding if the AI better be on point.
Posted By: brosephhstalin Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/11/20 03:19 PM
Also going to post here saying that I would very much like something like an infinity-engine based party selection and movement tool. Drag-select and formations are perfect for this kind of game.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/11/20 03:31 PM
Originally Posted by Riandor
No it certainly wasn’t a big issue in the previous games, but it was there if you weren’t careful.

Obviously here it’s worse precisely because of the stupid chain function and your party constantly rearranging itself and the often large amount of long lasting surface effects or permanent hazards.

It’s definitely fair to say that if you are going to add obstacles and surface hazards, then the controls and pathfinding if the AI better be on point.

Yeah, but I try to avoid focusing the discussion around that issue, specifically, because the last thing I'd want is for Larian to look at the feedback, say "Oh, they seem to have issues mostly with characters avoiding surfaces", then throw us a patch that makes characters better at avoiding traps while keeping the same shitty control scheme and say "See? We solved the problem entirely".

Well, no, you fucking didn't.
Posted By: Riandor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/11/20 02:04 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Riandor
No it certainly wasn’t a big issue in the previous games, but it was there if you weren’t careful.

Obviously here it’s worse precisely because of the stupid chain function and your party constantly rearranging itself and the often large amount of long lasting surface effects or permanent hazards.

It’s definitely fair to say that if you are going to add obstacles and surface hazards, then the controls and pathfinding if the AI better be on point.

Yeah, but I try to avoid focusing the discussion around that issue, specifically, because the last thing I'd want is for Larian to look at the feedback, say "Oh, they seem to have issues mostly with characters avoiding surfaces", then throw us a patch that makes characters better at avoiding traps while keeping the same shitty control scheme and say "See? We solved the problem entirely".

Well, no, you fucking didn't.

Lol... agree!
Posted By: Bukke Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/11/20 08:44 AM
Going to copy/paste a reply I made to a different thread since I believe it highlights just how severely the current control scheme can get out of hand.

Originally Posted by Bukke
Outside the goblin camp there's a passage full of hidden mines and explosives. In the middle of the passage there's a very small chasm that you need to jump across.
If you somehow manage to avoid all the explosives leading up to the chasm and jump across it with one character (since you can't jump with everyone at once) the remaining three characters will immediately try to walk the entire way around the chasm, triggering explosive mines and possible running into goblin guards (the ones you likely were trying to avoid in the first place if you went this route)

If you want to cross the chasm unharmed you need to unchain all four characters, select them one by one, jump across the chasm, move the characters out of the way to make room for the others (but without stepping on the explosive mines), select all the remaining characters and jump across, then continue to move through the passage without triggering the explosives on the other side as well. If you fail this at any point you'll trigger a mine which deals enough damage to take 1/2 of a character's health on top of leaving a puddle of fire on the ground.

This is extremely bad design if you ask me.
Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/11/20 09:51 AM
I still agree.
Posted By: Sigi98 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/11/20 10:24 AM
I agree with the OP and would like to see a system similar to that in Solasta.
On a side note, this thread is on the first page almost all the time and I beg you to change 'dreaful' into 'dreadful' - please, my brain is freaking out
Posted By: guy Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/11/20 11:53 AM
I agree. There needs to be some fine tuning with party management
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/11/20 06:15 PM
Originally Posted by Sigi98
I agree with the OP and would like to see a system similar to that in Solasta.

Of all the options, Solasta is not really what I'd take as ideal model. Not when whe have PoE or Kingmaker with far better controls (and more suited for this type of game, which is not grid-based).

Quote
On a side note, this thread is on the first page almost all the time and I beg you to change 'dreaful' into 'dreadful' - please, my brain is freaking out

I started saying in the first page of the thread and repeated more than once that I noticed the typo but I can't edit the title (or anything in the first post, really) anymore.

Unless a moderator comes in and "solves the problem", you'll have to live with your freak out.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/11/20 07:40 PM
I'm glad this thread is still alive and well.
But I'm not so glad that Larian still havent made an effort to acknowledge that the party management/movement is in dire need of improvement. Well, not just improvement. More like a complete revamp.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/11/20 08:01 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Unless a moderator comes in and "solves the problem", you'll have to live with your freak out.

#"When you wish upon a star....."
Posted By: Sigi98 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/11/20 09:34 PM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Tuco
Unless a moderator comes in and "solves the problem", you'll have to live with your freak out.

#"When you wish upon a star....."


omg thank you so much
now I can live in peace
Posted By: Riandor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/11/20 11:55 PM
The thread is saved!!!!
Posted By: SpiritChaser Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/11/20 01:31 PM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
....
CUT
....

And add auto jump.


That's it !!!
i know that every single PC have different stat (strenght), but maybe if you have a rope in your inventory you can have the option
to make an "auto jump" or a sort of (pyramids grin ) teleport, everything is better than select 4 player and have to select 4 jump.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/11/20 01:41 PM
Does anyone who has played other party based RPG's like this control scheme? Why is it still a thing? Because of consoles I guess.

I mean.. by all means keep it as an option, but add a [select all] fast key and marquee selection. And default the chain follow OFF.
Posted By: dunehunter Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/11/20 02:00 PM
The chain/unchain system is reserved for console platform, where it is better to control single character.

If Larian still wants to make it to console, they will never change it back to old crpg style.

Sadly but this is the truth. Just look at Dragon age, DOS2 was inspired by the party move style from DAO. And DAI is more a console game than a PC game with an awkward tactical system. Hope BG3 won’t follow the same pattern.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/11/20 02:16 PM
We Demand More Sexy party movement
Posted By: ash elemental Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/11/20 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by dunehunter
And DAI is more a console game than a PC game with an awkward tactical system. Hope BG3 won’t follow the same pattern.

DAI's party control and camera were terrible when trying to play it with mouse & keyboard.

Though I suspect Larian won't pay attention to this feeback; they seem too focused on their data gathering system. Which won't tell them e.g. that the reason my party spent so much time in the Underdark was the constant party controls vs. difficult terrain battle.
Posted By: Mogan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 28/11/20 05:22 AM
I keep going back and trying to play further in the Early Access, because I like the Forgotten Realms, and the exploration in this game is pretty cool and compelling, but I just can't play for more than 30-45 minutes at a time because I'm fed up with how much of a chore it is to just move the party around. This is why I bounced of DoS1 and 2 as well; fun combat sandbox, but the controls and UI make it too much trouble to play those games.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 03/12/20 03:38 AM
Not to be the Negative Nancy, but I'm almost afraid this bullshit palliative with followers auto-umping after your MC is ALL the improvement we'll ever see on the front of party controls.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 03/12/20 09:58 AM
Originally Posted by dunehunter
The chain/unchain system is reserved for console platform, where it is better to control single character.

If Larian still wants to make it to console, they will never change it back to old crpg style.

Sadly but this is the truth. Just look at Dragon age, DOS2 was inspired by the party move style from DAO. And DAI is more a console game than a PC game with an awkward tactical system. Hope BG3 won’t follow the same pattern.


I don't see why controller support should torpedoe it. Pathfinder Kingmaker did it well, with a simple toggle between driving style movement and quick switch to cursor style with one of the thumbsticks. It's also a pretty seamless transition there between a mouse/keyboard and marquee type scheme to a controller based scheme, and they even bothered to put in a tutorial for each. Having seen it done I'd have thought they'd go with something much more like that to capture a more essential BG feel. PK style but in 3D and with camera rotation would have been next level Baldur's Gate! Alas

But I agree what they did here is way closer to DAO or their divinity titles than the old school crpg. They should have just gone straight to console if that was the plan. It already feels more like Dragon Age or Dark Alliance or Demonstone, than BG2 anyway. Right now it feels like playing a game that was designed for controller, but for some reason being forced to play it with a mouse and keyboard, which is just kind of annoying.

I think its all still more the UI that needs work, and the selection/command scheme that needs the work, and just get rid of the body block already for party members.
Posted By: Grantig Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 03/12/20 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Not to be the Negative Nancy, but I'm almost afraid this bullshit palliative with followers auto-umping after your MC is ALL the improvement we'll ever see on the front of party controls.


Wait, it doesn't feel naturally to you, that people run into detected traps/open fires just because? wink
Posted By: alice_ashpool Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 03/12/20 02:35 PM
It's hard for me to say for sure, but I think movement in combat has actually got worse with this patch! Did the undead crypt fight and the pathing for party members was atrocious, some super bizarre routing. Would appreciate knowing if anyone else has noticed this.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 03/12/20 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Not to be the Negative Nancy, but I'm almost afraid this bullshit palliative with followers auto-umping after your MC is ALL the improvement we'll ever see on the front of party controls.



Im afraid of that as well
Posted By: Veilburner Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 03/12/20 05:28 PM
When it comes to controller support I'm playing on Stadia and use the controller sometimes. Don't see any problems when i go back to mouse and keyboard.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 03/12/20 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by Veilburner
When it comes to controller support I'm playing on Stadia and use the controller sometimes. Don't see any problems when i go back to mouse and keyboard.

Are you sure you are in the right thread?
Because this isn't about controller support. It's about how shitty the default control scheme is compared to other titles in the genre.
Posted By: Veilburner Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 03/12/20 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Veilburner
When it comes to controller support I'm playing on Stadia and use the controller sometimes. Don't see any problems when i go back to mouse and keyboard.

Are you sure you are in the right thread?
Because this isn't about controller support. It's about how shitty the default control scheme is compared to other titles in the genre.



Was responding to someone who said if they added controller support it would no longer be a CRPG.
Posted By: Bossk_Hogg Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 03/12/20 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by Grantig
Originally Posted by Tuco
Not to be the Negative Nancy, but I'm almost afraid this bullshit palliative with followers auto-umping after your MC is ALL the improvement we'll ever see on the front of party controls.


Wait, it doesn't feel naturally to you, that people run into detected traps/open fires just because? wink


Whaaat? You mean your friends don't throw themselves off cliffs into fire the second you try and cast guidance on one of them?!

Larian, your controls suck. From the camera, party movement, to pathing, to casting spells on targets... its all terrible. I just don't understand why, when there is a basic control scheme that works well for hundreds of other games, you decide to reinvent the wheel and start with a square blob of flaming poop rather than a wooden circle.
Posted By: Bossk_Hogg Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 03/12/20 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
It's hard for me to say for sure, but I think movement in combat has actually got worse with this patch! Did the undead crypt fight and the pathing for party members was atrocious, some super bizarre routing. Would appreciate knowing if anyone else has noticed this.



My party wouldn't even walk in the bottom level of the crypt... its way worse now, which is kind of impressive.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/12/20 02:20 AM
I start a new game Yesterday After a few weeks and yes... These controls definitely sucks.

They did a great job about cantrips and I really really hope they'll also listen to all of us about this.

Something more usual would greatly improve their games for the future : this chain mechanic has no advantages from a player point of view, only disadvantages.
Posted By: LukasPrism Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/12/20 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I start a new game Yesterday After a few weeks and yes... These controls definitely sucks.

They did a great job about cantrips and I really really hope they'll also listen to all of us about this.

Something more usual would greatly improve their games for the future : this chain mechanic has no advantages from a player point of view, only disadvantages.


The chain mechanic works well on consoles in the DOS games, especially when playing co-op. But yeah hopefully they give us more options.
Posted By: AceVentura Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 05/12/20 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic.

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.


There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.

I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?






I also wish this game was made on Infinity Engine
Posted By: Seleniumcodec Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 05/12/20 02:30 PM
I have to be perfectly honest, for most of the 2000 hours I played D:OS 2 I played a lone wolf build, this game is fully capable of being beat as a solo runner which some people like myself like as it's very challenging and less time consuming. My best guess is that Larian are trying to keep everyone happy who are Larian fans since D:OS 2 as lets be fair it's their biggest seller to date due to the lone wolf system at $90M+ revenue to date, It's their version of party management that got them there from a crowd funded start up, and it is their stamp on a game long abandoned by Bioware. Bioware themselves are making terrible games these days as the good devs retired rich. To defend that statement has anyone actually played SW Squadrons and not shouted uncontrollably at the screen as controls are that bad, or rage quit the old republic as they nerfed everything except Knight, or even cursed the controls in fallen order as it was a fallen order alright, which involved you being the fallen as the controls typically registered in the wrong order?. Let Larian be Larian as Bioware are terribad these days churning out short term tested kiddy fodder is the message there.

Try to remember Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax invented DND for SINGULAR characters to move through Fearun in 1974 USING companions for their...Well, use. DND is a tabletop you could actually play by yourself, or with friends as a choice not dictation. Before nostalgia tripping also remember Shadows of Amn came out in 2000 when party split was not a possiblity due to technological restriction and Bioware as mentioned above were ruined by EA almost as much as Blizzard by Activision.

I will admit solo rogue is proving Impossible for me at the moment as it's a bit flimsy due to being forced not to invest in enough constitution and can be one shot by so many creatures it's frustrating, that's truly my only gripe other than my last post.

(edit) Also to keep solo runners happy they will need to up the timer on a certain trapped lady in a cage without creating a spoiler.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 05/12/20 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I start a new game Yesterday After a few weeks and yes... These controls definitely sucks.

They did a great job about cantrips and I really really hope they'll also listen to all of us about this.

Something more usual would greatly improve their games for the future : this chain mechanic has no advantages from a player point of view, only disadvantages.


The chain mechanic works well on consoles in the DOS games, especially when playing co-op. But yeah hopefully they give us more options.


Other classic systems works well on other games on console too smile
The chain is just a "follow"... Select 2 characters and the result is the same except that one is a mess while the other one is accurate, which is important in a strategy game.

Pathfinder Kingmaker, Pillars of Eternity, Solasta, Dragon Age, Temple of Elemental Evil, Wasteland 2 and 3, Tyranny,...
We could also talk about most RTS games like Total War, Age of Empire, Company of Heroes and so on...

All those strategy games have the same control system and that's because it's way better than Larian's chain...

They have to admit that.their way of doing things is not the best (is not good) and they have to work on that if they want to reach the sky.

The chain has absolutely 0 pro if you compare with the other system, only cons.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 05/12/20 07:08 PM
+1 for total rethink.

This patch improved things but we don't need to prune around the edges -- kill this movement system at the root and plant something new. Even patch 3 is much worse than PoE. Getting to the ancient mud mephit encounter is still difficult and getting there in stealth mode actually got more difficult.
Posted By: LukasPrism Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 05/12/20 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I start a new game Yesterday After a few weeks and yes... These controls definitely sucks.

They did a great job about cantrips and I really really hope they'll also listen to all of us about this.

Something more usual would greatly improve their games for the future : this chain mechanic has no advantages from a player point of view, only disadvantages.


The chain mechanic works well on consoles in the DOS games, especially when playing co-op. But yeah hopefully they give us more options.


Other classic systems works well on other games on console too smile
The chain is just a "follow"... Select 2 characters and the result is the same except that one is a mess while the other one is accurate, which is important in a strategy game.

Pathfinder Kingmaker, Pillars of Eternity, Solasta, Dragon Age, Temple of Elemental Evil, Wasteland 2 and 3, Tyranny,...
We could also talk about most RTS games like Total War, Age of Empire, Company of Heroes and so on...

All those strategy games have the same control system and that's because it's way better than Larian's chain...

They have to admit that.their way of doing things is not the best (is not good) and they have to work on that if they want to reach the sky.

The chain has absolutely 0 pro if you compare with the other system, only cons.


If you think it has no pros, you’ve never played it with a controller – and probably never played co-op either judging by that list of games you’re comparing this to.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/12/20 08:21 AM
Originally Posted by LukasPrism

The chain mechanic works well on consoles in the DOS games, especially when playing co-op. But yeah hopefully they give us more options.

There is literally no design goal achieved by this system, even on the "controller" side of the argument, that couldn't be replaced for the better by simple "everyone follow/stop following" toggle, like Dragon Age did in 2009.

And to be clear I still think Dragon Age Origins had a subpar control scheme compared to other of the titles mentioned across this thread as good examples (Kingmaker, Poe 2, etc).
Which makes kind of telling that it's STILL lightyears ahead of the chain/unchain system.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/12/20 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I start a new game Yesterday After a few weeks and yes... These controls definitely sucks.

They did a great job about cantrips and I really really hope they'll also listen to all of us about this.

Something more usual would greatly improve their games for the future : this chain mechanic has no advantages from a player point of view, only disadvantages.


The chain mechanic works well on consoles in the DOS games, especially when playing co-op. But yeah hopefully they give us more options.


Other classic systems works well on other games on console too smile
The chain is just a "follow"... Select 2 characters and the result is the same except that one is a mess while the other one is accurate, which is important in a strategy game.

Pathfinder Kingmaker, Pillars of Eternity, Solasta, Dragon Age, Temple of Elemental Evil, Wasteland 2 and 3, Tyranny,...
We could also talk about most RTS games like Total War, Age of Empire, Company of Heroes and so on...

All those strategy games have the same control system and that's because it's way better than Larian's chain...

They have to admit that.their way of doing things is not the best (is not good) and they have to work on that if they want to reach the sky.

The chain has absolutely 0 pro if you compare with the other system, only cons.


If you think it has no pros, you’ve never played it with a controller – and probably never played co-op either judging by that list of games you’re comparing this to.


Please, feel free to enlighten me about it because no, I don't see any PRO whatever we're talking about PC/console or solo/multiplayer.

Did you ever played one of the games I named on console ?
I did... And in exemple in Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition on Nintendo Switch you can control your companions with 2 solutions :

- The classic mechanic : your right stick point a location, you click A, your party move in formation. You can easily select the character(s) to move.
- But you can also use your right stick to directly control the main character (stick to the left, character moving to the left). Every selected companions just follow.

If you want to select more or less companions, just press L then select the characters on a wheel.
In a way... that's a little bit the same except that you don't always have to chain/unchain. Even on console, this "old" system has been adapted and is still cleaner, easier and faster.

I also bought and played DoS2 on Nintendo Switch but to be honnest only a few hours because controls are a mess even more.
About MP no, I never tried but I can't see the point. You can individually select who follow you or not...

Seriously, give me your PRO because I can't see a single one if compare both mechanics (I just launched the two games on my switch to be sure I remembered well...)
Posted By: Zellin Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/12/20 04:07 PM
I'm not for the purpose of arguing, just to make sure that I understand the problem right:
The main problem with controls for you (Maximuuus, Tuco, others maybe) is that there are too many moves needed to switch between controlling one character or the whole group / part of the group?
Also, did you notice that you can group/ungroup characters by right click on their portrait?
Posted By: Ianthebea Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/12/20 04:20 PM
I'm honestly on board with the controls being bad, I've had it multiple times now where follow seems to break, the long story short is if I want to set up positions for any kind of strategy I'm doing way more clicks than I should be doing leading to an exercise in frustration, also the following of characters combined with automatic dialogue triggering upon proximity often leads to my companions being treated as the main character for dialogue cause my player character was out of position at the end of combat. It's honestly annoying having to chain and unchain people every time I setup my characters cause I'm effectively tripling my clicks if I consider I have to unchain, click, tab to other char, unchain click, etc etc. a good UI is supposed to reduce the amount of clicks/interactions needed to do anything, the UI is also laggy in that regard often leading to me having to double click because the game's not giving me proper feedback to inputs.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/12/20 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by Zellin
I'm not for the purpose of arguing, just to make sure that I understand the problem right:
The main problem with controls for you (Maximuuus, Tuco, others maybe) is that there are too many moves needed to switch between controlling one character or the whole group / part of the group?

Yeah, it has been explained over and over across the entire thread at this point, so it's a bit weird to come in with that request of clarification, but to be clear, the discussion here is not about what kind of maneuver the Larian UI allows you to do, but ab out how convoluted it makes it.


Things that with an "RTS-like" control scheme would literally take a couple of clicks here takes an inane amount of unnecessary intermediate steps.

Lets' take a scenario as an example:

PLAYER 1 is at the gates of a hostile camp and decides he wants to set up an ambush. As a starting maneuver he decides to put his party in stealth, move each one of his party members in a specific corner of the area, then he opens the dances, wipes the enemies (let's sya the brigands) from the face of the planet and goes back to move his entire party as one.

In a traditional system:
He will select the whole party, click/press the "stealth" command, then with literally just two clicks for each, he will select and move every character exactly where he wants it.
When the fight will be done, a quick click and drag on the whole party or a press the "select all" shortcut and and he will go on his way.

With the Larian system:
Click stealth. Oh right, only the selected character goes in stealth, so repeat the process for each one of the four men (imagine if it was a party of six, sigh). Time to tell each one where to...
Wait a second, why is everyone moving every time the selected character does? Oh right, time to UNCHAIN each one of them, either by dragging the portrait or right clicking on it and selecting the equivalent function.
Now he can tell each one where to go, have the exact same fight and be on his wa- Wait a second, why is everyone standing aroud like an idiot?
Oh right, before that he needs to re-select each one of them individually, relink them to the party (which by the way works only if they are already in the proximity, so maybe he needs to move everyone more closely before) and then finally be able to go on his way again.

And please, don't make the similar word count fool you, what we have on the latter is not "from 30% to 50% longer", the description of these actions may be somewhat comparable in length but this second process takes almost four times the amount of work of the first one in practical terms.
Can you see why this system is garbage no matter from what angle you may look at it?

EDIT- Edited the post a bit because I was constantly going from second to third person and that made it particularly messy to read.
Posted By: guy Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/12/20 05:28 PM
I notice sometimes I click somewhere, and the member goes else where, or will not stop moving immediately.
IF there could be a immediate stop movement button.

And I think I read somewhere that Larian has a invisible roof over the world.
I wonder if that is getting in the way when clicking locations?
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/12/20 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by Zellin
I'm not for the purpose of arguing, just to make sure that I understand the problem right:
The main problem with controls for you (Maximuuus, Tuco, others maybe) is that there are too many moves needed to switch between controlling one character or the whole group / part of the group?
Also, did you notice that you can group/ungroup characters by right click on their portrait?


There are at least minimum one more click to do whatever you right click or drag the chain to break it (usually two click when you try to break the chain because it's buggy...).

It's a problem, especially because it's often 1 or 2 per character (see tuco's exemple with a full party).

As I said I just tried both BGEE and DoS2 on switch and if you compare : one is fluent, clean and easy. You click and move.
The other is a mess hard to understand, slow and often buggy. You spend way more time to link your ranged together, then your melee, then...

Larian's chain is something you have to manage and we shouldn't have to manage the characters control mechanics.

But that's not the only problems.
The companions run like chickens everytime.

You climb a ladder and select another character that is still climbing -> the first one go down...
Your party is standing but you select another character -> the 3 other are moving
You spot ennemies and walk back not to engage -> Your companions are going a little bit closer and the battle start.
That's only a few usual exemples.

(Way) more click + useless and (often) unexpected movements = slow and inaccurate control of your characters... Which is a shame is a """strategy game""" (that's what steam say about the game)
Posted By: Zellin Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/12/20 06:25 PM
Thx for your answers.
And yes, Tuco, I see the problem. To explain me being weird: most of the thread was like "it's garbage", "that game did it better". And I played those games long ago or never. So I wanted to see the exact phrasing of the problem without spending a lot of time searching through 17pages in case someone already did phrase it.
I'm composing my suggestions on UI and controls. And I'm trying to keep my suggestions aligned with popular feedback. That's it.
Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/12/20 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco

Lets' take a scenario as an example:

PLAYER 1 is at the gates of a hostile camp and decides he wants to set up an ambush. As a starting maneuver he decides to put his party in stealth, move each one of his party members in a specific corner of the area, then he opens the dances, wipes the enemies (let's sya the brigands) from the face of the planet and goes back to move his entire party as one.

In a traditional system:
He will select the whole party, click/press the "stealth" command, then with literally just two clicks for each, he will select and move every character exactly where he wants it.
When the fight is done, a quick click and drag on the whole party or a press the "select all" shortcut and and he will go on your way.

With the Larian system:
Click stealth. Oh right, only the selected character goes in stealth, so repeat the process for each one of the four men (imagine if it was a party of six, sigh). Time to tell each one where to...
Wait a second, why is everyone moving every time the selected character does? Oh right, time to UNCHAIN each one of them, either by dragging the portrait or right clicking on it and selecting the equivalent function.
Now you can tell each one where to go, have the exact same fight and be on his wa- Wait a second, why is everyone standing aroud like an idiot?
Oh right, before that he needs to re-select each one of them individually, relink them to the party (which by the way works only if they are already in the proximity, so maybe he needs to move everyone more closely before) and then finally be able to go on his way again.

And don't make the similar word count fool you, what we have on the latter is not "from 30% to 50% longer", the description of these actions may be somewhat comparable in length but this second process takes almost four times the amount of work of the first one in practical terms.
Can you see why this system is garbage no matter from what angle you may look at it?



Well-illustrated. This makes it very clear.
Posted By: LukasPrism Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/12/20 08:40 PM
Woeful pathfinding and ‘running around like chickens’ aside, it doesn’t actually sound like we need to throw out the chain system entirely (as that does work well on consoles where multi-selecting would be clunky). What would help is:
1) A command to chain/unchain all with no range limit
2) Stealth to apply to all currently chained party members (I can’t think of a situation where you wouldn’t want to stealth any of the PCs following you if you’re going into stealth yourself)

I actually don’t think formations are too important for a turn-based game like this. In fact, having all my party frog-marching around doesn’t feel very D&D to me. I’d rather it went more the other way, like Dragon’s Dogma’s pawns, where they have a bit more independence and your druid might automatically harvest plants for you while you’re walking around, perhaps your barbarian likes smashing crates and saving you having to check all the containers yourself (all within reason of course, and hopefully with better AI and inventory management). To me that cuts down on the repetition and feels far more immersive. Gives you more opportunities to have companions say things too, making the game feel more alive.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/12/20 06:08 AM
There are only 2 formations I can see if the party only has 4 pcs: the Square and the Line.

The only thing that really matters there is whether you want the PC leading from the front, or taking up the rear.

The square just becomes a wedge with fewer than 4 in the party, basically whether you want leader up for scouting or running interference, or behind for guarded ranged or casting etc, its similar just with one exposed flank in the front or the rear.

Square/Diamond should be the all purpose formation for free roaming outdoors or above ground.

The Line is better for dungeon crawling, or hazardous terrain, sneaking or avoiding traps and the like.

Obviously its more interesting with more PCs like say 6. It still doesn't feel gold box caliber to me without 6 PCs, or a clean dozen with summons. Then you can get cooler formations with rings or wings maybe, but the environments are too small or else cam doesn't let us zoom out far enough to really make much use of the formations idea.

A follow mechanic is good, but the chain just feels clunky. Dragging portraits out and back into each other is obnoxious and click intensive. Especially since you don't really interact with the portraits for anything else, like say casting spells. Its also not the easiest to tell the leader position, I think vertical portrait orientation is better. Leader at the top. In any case its just not simple enough to group/ungroup select all. I don't see myself doing much co op but if it was well designed I might use a controller to play this game. Its too bad they don't have much controller support for the EA except stadia I guess? Cause this seems like it would be a good time to get that dialed too, if they're hoping to go that way. Anyone tried a pad mapper for xbox controller or anything like that? I don't feel like I'm getting all that much from the mouse and keyboard. I'd probably just go for DA or Kotor style and bumble about with the thumbstick.
Posted By: Ianthebea Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/12/20 06:19 AM
maybe if they add keybinds for unchaining + being able to box select or select multiple portraits so the amount of clicks get reduced from triple to 1 box select - > key bind to toggle chain/unchain -> position x4 clicks -> engage combat with good positioning

box selection or ctrl+A or other keybind to select all characters again post combat to gather up and hit keybind toggle for chain/unchain party again would alleviate a LOT of my problems here, I dunno how feasible it is to implement for them technically but I'm very much noticing I'm missing some controls or I feel that some of the keybinds or party management is needlessly clunky.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/12/20 08:13 AM
"Maybe this, maybe that. We could do X rather than Y" and so on.

Do we even realize that every suggested compromise so far boils down to making a terrible system somewhat less obscene to use, without any genuine hope to make it actually good?
Every time a partial modification that keeps the chain system around is suggested, it boils down to being a a proverbial case of trying to put lipstick on a pig.

Yeah, a quick keybind ot chain/unchain everyone on a button press WOULD make things better, and it was suggested since the beginning of this very thread even by myself. But when you think about it, its only function would be insisting to salvage a garbage control scheme.
It would be far better to approach this from the exact opposite position: what about giving us a decent control scheme that makes sense, to begin with, and THEN include an "everyone autofollow!" function as a toggle for people with dysfunctional hands who really, REALLY want to control only their MC.
Posted By: LukasPrism Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/12/20 08:34 AM
IDK maybe because we’re realists and understand that Larian can implement a few quick fixes to greatly improve QoL but there’s very little chance they’re going to bin all their existing code and start again?
Posted By: Ankou Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/12/20 08:43 AM
We really need a "hold position" command and it would solve a lot of the problems I encounter. When I'm jumping onto a precarious position and we're all hiding, I can't have idiots wandering around into view of my hordes of enemies.
Posted By: Sharp Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/12/20 08:44 AM
I just want marquee select. Seriously, how hard is it to implement?
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/12/20 08:54 AM
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
IDK maybe because we’re realists and understand that Larian can implement a few quick fixes to greatly improve QoL but there’s very little chance they’re going to bin all their existing code and start again?

"All their existing code"?
Just how much ingrained and "hard coded" into the game do you actually expect the UI to be, exactly?
Posted By: LukasPrism Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/12/20 10:16 AM
Pretty deeply I’d say considering they’ve used the same schema for three games now instead of rebuilding it, and during that time there has never been the ability to select more than one character at a time. As someone mentioned earlier there was pressure to change it for DOS2 but it didn’t happen.
Anyway, I’m not saying it shouldn’t change if they are willing and able to. But there’s no harm in putting in some more modest requests as a Plan B.
My personal ideal would be to focus on my MC and let the companions take care of themselves in an intelligent manner – closer to true D&D where you only have one character – at least until combat begins. I’d love to see Larian push boundaries and do something new in that spirit, like Dragon’s Dogma did, and let go of the past. As many have mentioned, there are already several great infinity clones out there. But I understand I’m almost certainly in the minority on this.
Posted By: Ianthebea Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/12/20 01:00 PM
a keybind to mass unchain your party and mass rechain + have a keybind that orders all party members to the mouse cursor location seems feasible enough, they'd just have to get functions tied to certain buttons, this would sidestep the need to select multiple characters which seems incompatible with how the game functions with the whole UI changing to fit whichever char you have selected

the ordering the party to 1 location would be to assist in rechaining the party together after unchaining them and spreading them to strategic locations before entering combat.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/12/20 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by Ankou
We really need a "hold position" command and it would solve a lot of the problems I encounter. When I'm jumping onto a precarious position and we're all hiding, I can't have idiots wandering around into view of my hordes of enemies.


I would like that as well as the marquee select. If Larian could just add those two they would be on the right path when it comes to party control.
And no, I don't think it would require that much work to implement something like that. Not trashing all their existing code and start over again as some people seems to think for some reason.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/12/20 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Pretty deeply I’d say considering they’ve used the same schema for three games now instead of rebuilding it, and during that time there has never been the ability to select more than one character at a time. As someone mentioned earlier there was pressure to change it for DOS2 but it didn’t happen.

That just means people at Larian for some inane reason seem to be very fond of their shitty control scheme, it doesn't mean there are any meaningful technical obstacles to doing things differently.
Which is precisely the part where it becomes a dire need from our side telling them insistently that NO, it actually sucks a whole lot.
Posted By: Dexai Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/12/20 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
There are only 2 formations I can see if the party only has 4 pcs: the Square and the Line.

The only thing that really matters there is whether you want the PC leading from the front, or taking up the rear.

The square just becomes a wedge with fewer than 4 in the party, basically whether you want leader up for scouting or running interference, or behind for guarded ranged or casting etc, its similar just with one exposed flank in the front or the rear.

Square/Diamond should be the all purpose formation for free roaming outdoors or above ground.

The Line is better for dungeon crawling, or hazardous terrain, sneaking or avoiding traps and the like.

Obviously its more interesting with more PCs like say 6. It still doesn't feel gold box caliber to me without 6 PCs, or a clean dozen with summons. Then you can get cooler formations with rings or wings maybe, but the environments are too small or else cam doesn't let us zoom out far enough to really make much use of the formations idea.

A follow mechanic is good, but the chain just feels clunky. Dragging portraits out and back into each other is obnoxious and click intensive. Especially since you don't really interact with the portraits for anything else, like say casting spells. Its also not the easiest to tell the leader position, I think vertical portrait orientation is better. Leader at the top. In any case its just not simple enough to group/ungroup select all. I don't see myself doing much co op but if it was well designed I might use a controller to play this game. Its too bad they don't have much controller support for the EA except stadia I guess? Cause this seems like it would be a good time to get that dialed too, if they're hoping to go that way. Anyone tried a pad mapper for xbox controller or anything like that? I don't feel like I'm getting all that much from the mouse and keyboard. I'd probably just go for DA or Kotor style and bumble about with the thumbstick.


Of the top of my head there are five useful formations for a party of four: the line and the square, that you brought up, but also the Diamond, and the T and it's reversed, upside down brother.

Diamond (♦️) is probably the formation I would use the most. Heavy melee in front, secondary melee and half-fighters in row two, the most frail character in the back. The T puts three melee or fighty characters up front and one frail in the second row. The upside down T puts the heavy alone in the front and the frail one in between the other two, flanks secured by less frail companions.

However, allowing formation isn't just about the shapes of the formations - it's also about who goes where. If I can build my own formation I can have my wizard character in the back even when he is the selected character. That way he will be protected during exploration yet still be the one who enters dialogue when I click on an NPC. And that kind of quality of life features makes party/character selection so much less of a hassle to handle.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/12/20 03:56 PM
Yeah I like the T and ⊥ too in principle, but I was thinking that formation probably doesn't matter all that much within TBS combat, since once you enter battle there's not much to be gained by holding a formation in this game. At that point its a free for all race either to reach an opponent and start whacking, or get out of the way or to the high ground. So its really more for the roaming outside combat, like whether you want the group to be spread out or all close together when the combat begins. But even there people are mostly meta gaming it I'd guess and approaching combat in whatever position/formation will gain them advantage, since good ambushes are rare and you can scout with the camera.

I'm a control freak, so I also wish I could hold/lock position build formations and move in a more coordinated way, with simple efficient clicking, not click and drag portrait to deal with chains. But that's cause I still dig infinity's RTS type control/command scheme with a marquee or select all hotkey.

I could probably get into something like Dragon's Dogma as an alternative approach for the roaming. It wouldn't feel particularly Baldur's Gate, but at least it would coast along in a more interesting sort of way when outside of combat. I was rather hoping for something more engaging from movement outside of combat, maybe taking a page from Zelda where in addition to jumping players could actually climb and swim and whatnot, maybe use ropes and like. But even the most compelling environments here are just kind of like ziggurats for king of the hill and geared more to combat than free form exploration. In other games I always find myself wanting to head up the wrong side of the mountain, or jump off the tallest rock, and mess about that way, and this sort of teases that 3d and cam control, but doesn't really deliver when it comes to the roaming. That territory has been thoroughly explored in action games where you only have a single character, but I can imagine a lot of cool animations and ways it might work in a party based game where it hasn't really been done yet.

Anyhow, just to echo the other concerns, I'm not super happy with the current controls. Its not fluid enough to be relaxing outside of combat, and overly exacting for simple stuff like just jumping over a rock or having everyone else stand still while you're making the attempt. I think in a desire to keep the party "looking" active and dynamic, they end up with that frenetic jogging about that has been described as chickens ambling without purpose. I just want to be able to issue the commands to each PC separately and have them not trip over themselves or each other, run around the long way, catch on fire or whatever. BG1s innovation was basically to make itself Diablo x6 hehe. I get that this one is different because TB, but I don't want to play the whole thing in 6 second intervals just so that movement outside combat feels like I'm still in control, which I guess is the way its done right now. Just seems like they could get something simpler and more responsive for the roaming part, which is the majority of the game after all.

Posted By: Firesnakearies Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/12/20 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by Sharp
I just want marquee select. Seriously, how hard is it to implement?



Apparently really hard.

(Me too.)
Posted By: Zellin Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/12/20 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Sharp
I just want marquee select. Seriously, how hard is it to implement?



Apparently really hard.

(Me too.)

I'm afraid that kind of select may prove not that comfortable in ful 3D with somewhat short zoom distance, verticality and complex environment.
Posted By: LukasPrism Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/12/20 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Originally Posted by Sharp
I just want marquee select. Seriously, how hard is it to implement?



Apparently really hard.

(Me too.)

I'm afraid that kind of select may prove not that comfortable in ful 3D with somewhat short zoom distance, verticality and complex environment.


I did wonder about that, what vertical plane is the marquee on etc, but you could likely just treat the viewport as a plane and select whatever you can see with a marquee. I think the trouble partly stems from Larian having built their model as co-op focused (which is partly why they’ve been really successful). I also think they’re aiming higher than traditional infinity-style CRPGs and trying to take this kind of micromanagement out of the game where you feel the need to boss each partly member around constantly. And that actually suits D&D 100%. The only problem is they’re not there yet – the clumsy AI gets you in trouble which makes you want to exert more control. That and there are a couple of QoL commands missing.

If they ever give us the ability to summon multiple creatures like you should be able to in 5E then marquee select would be very useful though – unless you like exploration with a controller (as I do), in which case you’re going to have a big gaggle of crocodiles etc bumbling around behind you.
Posted By: Mogan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/12/20 06:33 PM
^If Larian is trying to take micromanagement out of the game, they've failed pretty hard. The DoS controls and UI have made BG3 so much more fiddly and cumbersome than the old games in the series ever were.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 09/12/20 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by Mogan
^If Larian is trying to take micromanagement out of the game, they've failed pretty hard. The DoS controls and UI have made BG3 so much more fiddly and cumbersome than the old games in the series ever were.


Plain truth.
Posted By: YT-Yangbang Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 09/12/20 04:46 PM
Some of the most important group commands I dream for.

- Everybody gather up (auto move to reconnect chain group)
- Everybody wait for orders (break chain group)
- Everybody stop moving
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 09/12/20 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
Some of the most important group commands I dream for.

- Everybody gather up (auto move to reconnect chain group)
- Everybody wait for orders (break chain group)
- Everybody stop moving

And let's not forget "Let me control how many characters I want".
Posted By: YT-Yangbang Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 09/12/20 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
Some of the most important group commands I dream for.

- Everybody gather up (auto move to reconnect chain group)
- Everybody wait for orders (break chain group)
- Everybody stop moving

And let's not forget "Let me control how many characters I want".

How many characters do you want to control? 4 is pretty big
Posted By: Zellin Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 09/12/20 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
Some of the most important group commands I dream for.

- Everybody gather up (auto move to reconnect chain group)
- Everybody wait for orders (break chain group)
- Everybody stop moving

And let's not forget "Let me control how many characters I want".

How many characters do you want to control? 4 is pretty big

He means cases for more than 1 less than 4.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 09/12/20 11:50 PM
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang

How many characters do you want to control? 4 is pretty big

No, it's fucking NOT. Four people is on the anemic side as far as parties go.

Besides, I was referring about being ACTUALLY able to control more than one character at once, RTS-style.
Precisely what the current Larian control scheme doesn't allow you to do.
Posted By: Ramshine Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/12/20 02:59 AM
I think I would prefer the more conventional hold and drag method with the mouse to select characters like in the or baldurs gate. Also it would be verrrryyy helpful if you could buff/heal party members by clicking on there character tab
Posted By: CAGE Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/12/20 09:03 PM
erase the characteristics of the enemy ...
it would be like asking ... what level are you?
Posted By: YT-Yangbang Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/12/20 12:24 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang

How many characters do you want to control? 4 is pretty big

No, it's fucking NOT. Four people is on the anemic side as far as parties go.

Besides, I was referring about being ACTUALLY able to control more than one character at once, RTS-style.
Precisely what the current Larian control scheme doesn't allow you to do.

RTS style, that completely changes the style of the game. What part of an RTS style would fit inside this games mechanics for the better part of movement?
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/12/20 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang

RTS style, that completely changes the style of the game. What part of an RTS style would fit inside this games mechanics for the better part of movement?

Literally EVERYTHING outside of the turn-based combat phase.

Exactly like plenty of other games in the same genre already did, by the way.
Not sure why you are even talking as if we were trying to figure out some weird mythological beast out of our imagination.


...Are you even actually following what we are talking about here? You seem to be be struggling to figure it out, somehow.
Posted By: YT-Yangbang Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/12/20 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang

RTS style, that completely changes the style of the game. What part of an RTS style would fit inside this games mechanics for the better part of movement?

Literally EVERYTHING outside of the turn-based combat phase.

Exactly like plenty of other games in the same genre already did, by the way.
Not sure why you are even talking as if we were trying to figure out some weird mythological beast out of our imagination.


...Are you even actually following what we are talking about here? You seem to be be struggling to figure it out, somehow.

So for example what other game? I'm trying to see what you see.
Posted By: YT-Yangbang Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/12/20 12:44 PM
Hopefully I can catch you before you reply, but we've almost said the same things in this thread. That being the most needed and wanted commands are a "group all (action)" list. Group all break, group all gather, group all stop current movement, group all enter/exit sneak. The only difference you are asking is the click and drag to select member. Which is somewhat of a good call, but I'd prioritize the group commands above that. It would make the group controlling so much more smoother, which I believe we agree on. So apart from the click and drag to select, is that the only RTS style commanding you think would help the game?
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/12/20 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang

So for example what other game? I'm trying to see what you see.

Temple of Elemental Evil, Pathfinder Kingmaker with the turn-based mode, Pillars of Eternity 2 always with the turn-based mode... And that's only if we want to keep the distinction between party controls during exploration and turn-based combat.
If we ignore this, it literally applies to ANY of the old Infinity Engine titles (Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 included) and the interminable legion of clones they received across the years.

Once again I can't help but wonder if you are keeping track of what's actually being discussed here.

Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
Hopefully I can catch you before you reply, but we've almost said the same things in this thread. That being the most needed and wanted commands are a "group all (action)" list. Group all break, group all gather, group all stop current movement, group all enter/exit sneak. The only difference you are asking is the click and drag to select member. Which is somewhat of a good call, but I'd prioritize the group commands above that. It would make the group controlling so much more smoother, which I believe we agree on. So apart from the click and drag to select, is that the only RTS style commanding you think would help the game?

The difference is that you keep suggesting to add a bunch of "do this for all" specific commands, where I'm asking "Just let me select whoever I want out of my party and give commands to that selection specifically, as this genre always did for more than 20 years".
There's a reason if "RTS-like" commands were introduced into the genre, it's not by chance: it's the genre that perfected making the control of multiple units at once as quick and intuitive as possible.


Posted By: YT-Yangbang Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/12/20 01:12 PM
But you can already just select one character out of the party and position him here and there as you wish. So sorry if I'm confused but you are already saying you want things, that are already possible in game. Idk if my game is just bugged correctly, but when I put one character into sneak mode, only he ever moves and the rest of the party stands by for orders. So one by one, outside of where I'm planning my ambush, I select a character, enter sneak mode, move to position, and then select next character. One two three four, enter battle.

What in that process are you wanting to make more RTS like? When you say RTS I'm thinking like Total war and Starcraft, so maybe we're on different pages.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/12/20 01:22 PM
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
But you can already just select one character out of the party and position him here and there as you wish. .


That's precisely the problem. You can ONLY select ONE character at any given time.
You can't give group commands to a subselection of your party, which is what an "RTS-like" system would allow.

And YES, you can painstalkingly give detailed commands to each one of your men separately... With an awkward, convoluted and slow-as-hell UI that makes the process severely more time consuming than it could be.

Seriously, are you trolling me? Wasting my time on purpose? Deliberately pretending to not understand what the entire thread is about?
Posted By: YT-Yangbang Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/12/20 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
But you can already just select one character out of the party and position him here and there as you wish. .


That's precisely the problem. You can ONLY select ONE character at any given time.
You can't give group commands to a subselection of your party, which is what an "RTS-like" system would allow.

And YES, you can painstalkingly give detailed commands to each one of your men separately... With an awkward, convoluted and slow-as-hell UI that makes the process severely more time consuming than it could be.

Seriously, are you trolling me? Wasting my time on purpose? Deliberately pretending to not understand what the entire thread is about?

Calm down bro, I'm not trolling you. You really are so impatient and bothered about moving your 4 units into key positions on the field. Each character is not a (trooper name lvl x) that you move en mass. Plenty of times i tired to position my mage in a spot with my ranger on a high ground, just to find out his low strength score couldn't make the damn jump. It made for a great role play because now I had to re adjust my plan and keep him on the floor level with my fighter.

I have to admit that I've not played the other rpgs you mentioned, my list of turn based games like this are DOS2 and Xcom. With DOS2 being Larian's, its methods to me, weren't broken. But as I've been pointing out, just need refinement.

You literally just sound impatient, my dude.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/12/20 02:06 PM
Yeah, it's official: you are wasting my time.

"How is that UI you are suggesting better"
"Here's a list of examples on how the alternative would work better".
"Well, I don't mind the current UI being worse anyway. You just sound impatient".


Way to miss the point. If this isn't trolling then I don't know what it is.
Posted By: Sharp Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/12/20 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
But you can already just select one character out of the party and position him here and there as you wish. .


That's precisely the problem. You can ONLY select ONE character at any given time.
You can't give group commands to a subselection of your party, which is what an "RTS-like" system would allow.

And YES, you can painstalkingly give detailed commands to each one of your men separately... With an awkward, convoluted and slow-as-hell UI that makes the process severely more time consuming than it could be.

Seriously, are you trolling me? Wasting my time on purpose? Deliberately pretending to not understand what the entire thread is about?

Calm down bro, I'm not trolling you. You really are so impatient and bothered about moving your 4 units into key positions on the field. Each character is not a (trooper name lvl x) that you move en mass. Plenty of times i tired to position my mage in a spot with my ranger on a high ground, just to find out his low strength score couldn't make the damn jump. It made for a great role play because now I had to re adjust my plan and keep him on the floor level with my fighter.

I have to admit that I've not played the other rpgs you mentioned, my list of turn based games like this are DOS2 and Xcom. With DOS2 being Larian's, its methods to me, weren't broken. But as I've been pointing out, just need refinement.

You literally just sound impatient, my dude.


UI should be something you don't notice. If you notice it, there is a problem. There are a lot of elements to the UI in BG 3 which are like this, my biggest desire right now for this game is to have its UI overhauled, from the control scheme, to the hotbar, to the sorting options for the inventory.
Posted By: YT-Yangbang Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/12/20 07:20 PM
Tuco i haven't had any opinions yet on the UI, I've only started with my opinion on how they should refine their group actions and controls. For their UI tho, it is very lack luster. It needs some further refinement.

Coming from DOS2 they had a pretty standard and useful character menu and inventory. I'm sure they are going to polish it up more. And this is feedback to say, keep what was good and make it better.

The worst of the menus so far was the quest logs, its generally just missing a lot of meat and filler space to look more presentable and like a log for a fantasy game. Log entries in general could use much more information. Its looks bad that its a log information for the PC but its just like a sentence or two long.
Posted By: LoneSky Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/12/20 04:53 AM
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
You really are so impatient and bothered about moving your 4 units into key positions on the field.


It's not just him alone. While we can't make up here numbers, I'm sure everyone will grow "impatient" sooner or later, IF they play this game a long time.

I had no problems at all first few hours, and found the elasticity simulation shown when splitting one character apart from the rest of the party really funny. I even took the time and played the joining and splitting minigame a few times, and was like a new toy. Could be a standalone game in itself maybe, I don't know. So no hating there.

But then after I had enough of the new toy, and started playing the real game - the Baldur's Gate 3 thing, the UI started to become the #1 enemy quickly. It was about fighting the interface, because have to try multiple times until allows me to split anyone from the party. Then to sort them in the proper order (my character 1st, and 2-3-4 sorted from tankier to squishier), and it's the same thing: elasticity, rubber UI chain mechanics, which every time needs multiple tries until finally allows me to succeed.

Quickly became clear that in this game, I will have to do this "minigame" very frequently. Since I take 1 and go ahead to scout, then move each character 1 by 1 into their best position, before starting any fight. Then I go through a door or have to teleport, or return to camp or many other cases when have to group them again. Then repeat.

The longer I played the game, the more annoying the UI became: because can't do it quick, the enemy moves and there's no pause to waste timer with UI minigames. I played almost 100 hours, or a bit over idk now, and already had enough: this UI system will drive me clinically insane. Luckily I can quit, not addicted or anything.

It's certainly not an efficient system.
It's actually the worse party UI I ever saw in any game. Fun in itself as a minigame, but a pain as a party management tool.

But I don't think we should worry about BG3 more than Larian does. If the UI is fine for them, I don't mind it. Can't help more.
Posted By: YT-Yangbang Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/12/20 05:30 AM
By no means am I saying the current party management system is good. Its a bully to handle as is and yes I agree needs some serious refinement, one of the things being the rubber band effect your companions do when they follow you around. But going off what they had in DOS2 which I felt was good. Was when you entered a immediate battle, you could pre define your fighting formation and your companions would go to their spots. I hope they make that return here.

When engaged in conversation thats going to lead to a battle, you're other companions have complete free reign to move about and position themselves in prep. Makes since as if you were planning to battle a group that wanted to prattle along with conversation. You other teams mates could still move about and ready for a fight.

The linking and grouping mechanic is a absolute pain to mess with currently. The portrait panel positioning is so finicky and yes I agree is not their best item. I doubt its what its gonna be in the end product, as DOS2 had their pretty ok. They just need to expand on it ie. The all break/chain idea i said before.

When you go to break your companions apart in groups. Are you pulling the panel portrait of your character up from the group? I never have to many problems breaking the groups, its sticking then back together that sometimes gets annoying.

I don't follow you on the whole sort them out in proper order from tanks to squishy comment you said. Could you explain that, as your companions get positioned in a fight by you, so idk what you mean by that for order sorting.

Are we advocating to not even want BG3 to not be a turn based game anymore? My comparisons to BG3's UI mostly stem from DOS2. I'm thinking if maybe we're all just not seeing what we want on the same page.
Posted By: radioactive_lego Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/12/20 08:01 AM
Strongly agree with OP.

About half way through my first play through of existing content, I began separating (unlinking) my stealthiest or most charismatic character and had them do most of the exploration solo, simply because I did not like how the game automatically decided where the other party characters would move/arrange themselves.

In my opinion, Pathfinder: Kingmaker has the best character placement/control system I've played. It is easy to customize where characters should form, and the AI was apt enough to make adjustments to the form when a spacial limitation exists. Furthermore, the PF:KM system was much more lenient in character spacial geography - the buffer between characters/objects is much more fluid, allowing for better movement in confined spaces. Currently in BGIII I find myself using the jump/disengage bonus action far too often for simple movements between avatars that seem obviously accessible (unsure why disengage is a bonus action for all classes to begin with, but that's a separate issue).
Posted By: LoneSky Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/12/20 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang

I don't follow you on the whole sort them out in proper order from tanks to squishy comment you said. Could you explain that, as your companions get positioned in a fight by you, so idk what you mean by that for order sorting.

Are we advocating to not even want BG3 to not be a turn based game anymore? My comparisons to BG3's UI mostly stem from DOS2. I'm thinking if maybe we're all just not seeing what we want on the same page.


No, we are not talking about turn based vs. real time with pause modes here, there's a different, huge topic for that.

What I mean by "sort them in the proper order (my character 1st, and 2-3-4 sorted from tankier to squishier)" is that in BG3 your character isn't automatically set all the time as the 1st character in the party UI and every time you separate them, and then group up or they are grouped up by the game, for example when you leave the camp: they end up in a random party order decided by the game and not in the same position I already arranged them before. This is about their order they are shown in the party UI. Same happens in the (parallel) inventory screen, which shows them in random order as well sometimes and there can't even drag to fix it.

This is important because in order to select them, both in party mode and separated, the easiest way is by clicking the F1 key for the first character, F2, F3 and F4 for the others. Selecting with the mouse may take a few tries since the game struggles to recognize correctly what was clicked, same when targeting something. So using the keyboard F1 to F4 shortcuts is the only reliable way to select.
The problem is that F1 always selects the first character in the UI, and I expect that to be always the same character, so I can act quickly.

Many times the enemy is moving around, so I have to issue orders fast, to put them in good positions, before the fight starts. During fights there is no need of quick reactions anymore since it's a turn based game, but outside the fight mode, turn based is off and a reliable way to direct your party members is needed, otherwise you will end up in a bad position at the start of the fight.

Here comes in the "impatience" you mentioned, and why the party management in BG3 is so frustrating, thus making the entire game less fun. BG1 & 2 had a fantastic party management UI: remembered the position of each member and never lost it during rest or entering another instance or anything; you set it once and stayed like that. Same in Dragon Age, Pillars of Eternity and every game I ever played. Even the console focused Dragon Age Inquisition, and clicking on any portrait once, selected it instantly, was no need to use keyboard shortcuts like F1 here. Not even talking about formations, following and so on.

The party UI it's so bad in BG3 that looks like was intentionally made to annoy the players. I just can't believe it that this can go past any programmer by mistake: it's like this by design. Only they know why. What isn't broken, don't try to fix it: every game before had a basic UI that worked great, from 2D to 3D, in every game. There was no need to anything fancy rubber chewing gum effect and aiming for a spot in the Guinness World Records for the worst UI ever made in an RPG game.
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/12/20 03:59 PM
I think I have an answer has to why the UI in BG3 is so dreadful.
Larian does not use mouse devices when designing their games. Either design with game-pads, tablets or by voice command??!!
When all finished, they be : <<OH, but we need mouse functionality, uuuh lets see...haha now thats kinda cool, the way it SPRINGS...>>
It is the only logical explanation.
Posted By: YT-Yangbang Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/12/20 06:12 PM
Oh I understand now what you mean by party ordering. Yes thats very important for them to address, assigning order 1 thru 4 to actual characters would make having the hotkeys much more reliable. Having them constantly shift in their order is pretty frustrating, the inconsistency is definitely a flaw. I personally changed the hotkey to cycle thru players to be "tab", makes the game much more smoother to cycle thru characters on the fly. But having the order sorting stay solid is again definitely important for them to add.

For the instance of being outside of combat, im still not following you on how its hard to set up your guy's before a fight? When ambushed, you're ambushed, so the fight begins wither you like it or not. I accept that as a game mechanic. But when I'm setting up the ambush, I think its incredibly easy to find positions that is best for my team. Move them accordingly, watch out for vision cones, take the high ground where possible, and stay in the shadows or out of sight as I move everyone else. The only part that would make it better is the mentioned addition above.

I've never played bg2 and I had to refresh myself on how DA:I looked like in combat. After watching some YouTube videos on both to remember how they play, they aren't even the same category of turn based as BG3 or any of Larian type games. The only other game that I can truly compare to Larian games as far as combat goes and to my gaming experiences, is Xcom. Everyone has a turn and its about strategizing positions, turns, and attacks to come out on top.

Is the point on combat you are trying to make, is to have bg3 characters have the "constant basic attack" and then with freeze play skill uses like bg2 and DA:I?
Posted By: LoneSky Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/12/20 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang
I'm still not following you on how its hard to set up your guy's before a fight?


What is "hard" is selecting them quickly. Not really hard, but time consuming: have to play the UI "minigame" and fix the party first, every single time. That means keeping distance from enemy NPC's and doing stuff that needs to be done first, just because the UI is bad, instead playing the game fluently.

For example:
I just left the resting place instance, the camp. In this case the game gives me all 4 characters linked, partied up, and in a "random" order (not in the order I arranged them before entering camp).
That's bad already.

I need to re-arrange them in the "correct" order, and that because the way the selection keys work; I want to select my character, the Ranger, when I press the F1. F2 will be the Fighter. F3 will be the Cleric. F4 the Wizard.
It's already a lot of work to achieve that, but that alone would be fairly easy.

But I also need to take my Ranger alone, to go ahead scouting, and keep the rest of 3 characters linked (so don't have to move them one by one), left behind in a safe spot.

Now if I just drag the Ranger portrait out and unlink it, will be placed in 4th spot and can select it with F4, not F1. I want it to be F1 always, because otherwise I can't just press F1 and give orders, have to check first which is what and then press the correct key, that takes watching & thinking, it's like solving puzzles.

If I try to drag my unlinked Ranger into the first spot while the 3 other characters are linked, the game assumes I want the Ranger to rejoin the party, and won't allow me to take the F1 spot, can try forever, just won't let me. So I must unlink ALL of them first. Then while they are all solo, to drag their portraits around, until they are in the correct order, as I stated above: F1 Ranger, F2 Fighter, F3 Cleric, F4 Wizard. This will take a few tries, the game will fight back, but in the end after some minigame fun, they are in the correct order.

That's not what I wanted, but have to do it his way, in order to advance towards the planned configuration. Now I can drag the Cleric into the Fighter, and have them grouped up together, while my F1, F2, F3, F4 is in correct order. After that I drag the Wizard into them, and finally have a solo Ranger in first spot, ready to go ahead scouting, that can be controlled with F1.

Scouting went well, found out where I will start the next fight, so now I press F2, without the need to look at party UI or think about which key controls what. F2 will lead my 3 party members to a place nearby.
Now I unlink these 3, keeping them in same order, but everyone is unlinked.

Next, depends what is ahead, will start the fight with one of them, let's say with F4 the Wizard, will go close enough but out of vision range or by flanking and cast Sleep on their healer. Or any other character starts, and the others are moved to good spots, after the starting character enters turn based mode. Can't just walk up with a linked party into some ambush.

During fight I can select them easily using F1 to F4, focusing on what I will do next in the fight, instead trying to figure out which F key is my Wizard and which is my Ranger.

After the party UI minigame is solved, the game is "easy". Without this I could move the wrong character to the wrong spot.
The bad news is that I will have to start over all this sorting after every rest and every instance change. That's a lot of times, during a playthrough.


I explained all this for those without early access or those not playing with mouse & keyboard, because it's hard to imagine all these problems without playing it.
Posted By: Wormerine Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/12/20 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by YT-Yangbang

Calm down bro, I'm not trolling you. You really are so impatient and bothered about moving your 4 units into key positions on the field. Each character is not a (trooper name lvl x) that you move en mass.

One of things that make UI good or bad is: how quickly/how many clicks are required to do what I want to do.

Larian’s approach discourages controlling individual units. It inefficient, inaccurate and time consuming to do so, but as you mention possible to do. I am sure Larian has reason to sticking to their system, but what those reasons could be is beyond my comprehension. While I am glad to see Larian listening to feedback, I worry this is one of those things they won’t budge on (and by budge I mean, implement classic, reliable and tested RTS control scheme).
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/12/20 06:16 PM
A little gratuitous bump to stress the most serious issue the game has currently : its horrendous control scheme.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/12/20 07:03 PM
Yeah, its really quite painful and the main impediment to my being able to just enjoyably zone out and play for extended periods. Invariably after 30 minutes o\something in the control scheme will frustrate me and I log out of it.

I'd really like to see them address this in a serious way, with a real overhaul complete with some visual elements to distinguish it from the previous control scheme. Like come on guys, just break the Chain already. I know there's pain but...
Don't cha know? Don't cha know?

I'll hold on for one more day
maybe
lol
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/12/20 07:08 PM
Not like I needed convincing, but it was made very apparent for me yesterday after a long break, when I launched the game to test my new gaming PC and enjoy the increased performances... And 20 minutes into the session I noticed that I was genuinely annoyed at how moving my party around felt.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/12/20 07:13 PM
No doubt

Seriously, though where is @dotmats when we need him?

like this BG3 music video practically writes itself...

You know, on account of already being written, in brilliant and exacting detail.
Will we never make it to white castle? Like for real?
Come on Larian



they hella took the high ground though right? Like pretty much the whole time lol
Posted By: Drath Malorn Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/12/20 05:56 AM
@Black_Elk : I really did not have that reference, and would not have gotten it without you dropping the video. Good thing you didn't hold on for one more day. (Well, maybe you did. I'm so used to long rest in BG3 that I no longer see the difference between one day and 10 minutes ... )
Posted By: Night_Mask Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/12/20 12:00 PM
I have to say I agree...

In one hand I'm happy we will have a ForgottenRealms rpg where in the combat system uses territorry advantages fially; in other hand a bit feels like the we deprived of the chance to use them with this caracter control.
Posted By: Ianthebea Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/12/20 01:06 PM
I'm still really confused there's no keybind for jumping considering how often you do it, but there's a keybind for sneaking confused surely if these things can be keybound a mass unchain/rechain multiple selection of units for movement shouldn't be that wild of a suggestion.

formations as well would be great, instead of having characters move in formation at all times when combat is initiated you can just set a predetermined formation for characters to move into IMO, might seem a bit janky with everyone moving while initiative is rolling but it would alleviate a lot of annoyance that comes with say playing a wizard who's always gonna be on the frontline as player character as you presumably don't want lae'zel initiating all the dialogues that lead straight to combat just to avoid having your wizard be on the frontline when combat starts
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/12/20 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
@Black_Elk : I really did not have that reference, and would not have gotten it without you dropping the video. Good thing you didn't hold on for one more day. (Well, maybe you did. I'm so used to long rest in BG3 that I no longer see the difference between one day and 10 minutes ... )


@drath malorn : hehe thanks dude! I'm the same, like lets blink and stop time altogether, am I right?

It does get pretty exciting when they finally reach the beach though

My favorite part is when they "form a line" at the end there

Critical Hit lol

But yeah, moving in formation, pretty key
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/12/20 05:50 PM
Still no word from Larian regarding this issue I guess?
I 'm not asking for a detailed roadmap how they are going to solve this. Just a word from them if this is something they are going to look in to, or if it's something they don't think needs fixing.
Posted By: YT-Yangbang Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/12/20 06:40 PM
A roadmap would be nice.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/12/20 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by Peranor
Still no word from Larian regarding this issue I guess?
Well, right now they made rather clear that until January we aren't getting word about anything at all.

Still, it comes without saying that I'd love to hear them talk to acknowledge how almost universally disliked their control scheme is.
Even on other communities or watching random youtube videos of people playing the game I keep crossing comments of people who (rightfully) complain about it.

In fact, I just came here to check if there were new replies after reading sarcastic comments about how this control scheme sucks in an italian board I follow and I was browsing minutes ago.

Even on RPG Codex the thread about the game is filled of occasional comments of mockery about the "Larian toilet chain".
Posted By: Mogan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 29/12/20 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by Sharp
UI should be something you don't notice. If you notice it, there is a problem. There are a lot of elements to the UI in BG 3 which are like this, my biggest desire right now for this game is to have its UI overhauled, from the control scheme, to the hotbar, to the sorting options for the inventory.
Same. 100%.
This UI and control scheme is just DoS2, beaten into sort of working for a 5e CRPG. It's the single biggest thing that makes BG3 feel like a DoS2 mod and not a new game designed from the ground up as a 5e CRPG.
Posted By: andreasrylander Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 29/12/20 04:33 PM
Yeah, I seriously hope they improve the movement schematics and such. It should be way easier to select/deselect and move across and switch and... whatever really. Very old games have this nailed down, and yet BG3 isn't there yet. Hope they solve it.
Posted By: Marcus Artorius Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 03/01/21 12:35 AM
I just wanted to chime in to say that party selection/movement is the literal worst thing about this game. It makes me not want to play it. Everything about it is just so annoying.
Posted By: spectralhunter Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 03/01/21 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by Peranor
Still no word from Larian regarding this issue I guess?
I 'm not asking for a detailed roadmap how they are going to solve this. Just a word from them if this is something they are going to look in to, or if it's something they don't think needs fixing.

It’s the holidays. I think we’ll see more activity once we get past New Years Day.

I also agree the chaining mechanic must go. There are already other methods that are smoother and easier available.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/01/21 10:45 AM
Larian, listen to our prayers.
Well, to mine at least.
Posted By: TheFoxWhisperer Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/01/21 01:04 PM
+1

The control of the game feels generally.. janky. Clumsy. Not only the chain-group-movement but for me needing to go into the "casting stance" before you can jump/dash/sneak attack/etc feels just clumsy and unintuitive. I think BG3 and the DoS series are the only cRPGs I played that have this weird casting animation between clicking an ability and using it. These issues kind of kill replay value for me (And made the initial playthrough kind of a slog too)
Posted By: nation Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/01/21 03:41 PM
+1 repost support - i think there are alot of other areas of feedback that larian should look at too as bg3 ea continues, but the way the current party/character controls function in game with chain-linking and constant companion movement around the currently selected character, etc. really can be frustrating to use and is only further exacerbated by some other in game controls/mechanics (like the camera or map terrain/layout). tbd if we get to run a party with 6 companions (like the og series), but i would think that the issues inherent using the current party movement controls would only be more glaring with a 6 member party, so i hope that we atleast get some communication from larian regarding their intentions here

+1 ea roadmap or more larian communication - its been stated in this thread and others on the forums, but i think it would benefit both larian and the community if we got some more timely, regular communication regarding the progress of ea from the devs/larian so to better coordinate feedback efforts towards those areas most viable for input/change before the game launches. obvs we just got thru the holiday/year end season, but i would hope the next update/patch is more substantive in this regard
Posted By: Zellin Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/01/21 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Larian, listen to our prayers.
Well, to mine at least.
I think you would be interested in bringing your "votes" for or against some moments https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=750739#Post750739
Posted By: Scribe Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/01/21 05:54 PM
This was one of my main issues, I have no idea how or why this design was settled on, but making it awkward to simply move individual members of the party is...bizarre.
Posted By: Mogan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/01/21 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by Scribe
This was one of my main issues, I have no idea how or why this design was settled on, but making it awkward to simply move individual members of the party is...bizarre.
I can only assume it started as technical limitation that a smaller indie game like DoS1 didn't have the resources to solve. Larian needs to solve it now though; they're out there saying BG3 is a AAA game, and no self respecting AAA game would leave such an important part of its design so much worse than the genre's decades old standard.
Posted By: Topgoon Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/01/21 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by Mogan
Originally Posted by Scribe
This was one of my main issues, I have no idea how or why this design was settled on, but making it awkward to simply move individual members of the party is...bizarre.
I can only assume it started as technical limitation that a smaller indie game like DoS1 didn't have the resources to solve. Larian needs to solve it now though; they're out there saying BG3 is a AAA game, and no self respecting AAA game would leave such an important part of its design so much worse than the genre's decades old standard.

Just wanted to add that I agree 100%

The chain/unchain system is simply unacceptable on an AAA game and a sequel to a game that did not have this issue - it doesn't add any benefits to party control, and all of it issues as exacerbated by a combination of derpy pathfinding, and no fast and easy way to pause (entering turnbase mode is clunky and terrible).

I can't recall how many times I wanted my party to just stop right where they are and simply can't - and the rest of the party proceeds to circle and dance around the controlled character to flash mob their way into formation.

In a game where terrain has gameplay effects and traps are set by stepping over them, it's a terrible design.
Posted By: ldo58 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/01/21 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by Topgoon
[quote=Mogan]

Just wanted to add that I agree 100%

The chain/unchain system is simply unacceptable on an AAA game and a sequel to a game that did not have this issue - it doesn't add any benefits to party control, and all of it issues as exacerbated by a combination of derpy pathfinding, and no fast and easy way to pause (entering turnbase mode is clunky and terrible).

I can't recall how many times I wanted my party to just stop right where they are and simply can't - and the rest of the party proceeds to circle and dance around the controlled character to flash mob their way into formation.

In a game where terrain has gameplay effects and traps are set by stepping over them, it's a terrible design.

While going from crate to crate in a room in the blighted village, they ran around like chicken without eggs, then one ran out of the house through one hole in the wall and jumped back in through another. Result of the jump : concentration broken (it was a bless or magic armor spell cast previously)
Posted By: Scribe Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/01/21 08:55 PM
The number of times I clicked to jump, someone got stuck, I selected them, and everyone else jumped to the other side?

Shameful. :p
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/01/21 05:47 AM
I'm so glad to see more and more people recognizing how abysmal the current control scheme is and how much of a priority is to address it to make this game better.

I mean, we have seen across this entire thread and on other forums that the argument isn't controversial at all and the loathe for the chain/unchain system is basically unanimous, but a lot of people kept overlooking it as some minor side issue, when I can't really stress enough how much it manages to single-handedly hinder my enjoyment of the entire game.
Posted By: Topgoon Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/01/21 06:52 AM
I would not be surprised if this chain/unchain system is also one of the invisible reasons why some people have found the combat in BG3 too challenging (which I honestly don't think it is, but I've seen the complaints).

The terrible movement management encourages you to simply move your party forward as a group into encounters in the most vulnerable formation, as opposed to splitting up and scouting ahead, etc. Of course every fight will seem unfair when you start them surrounded and pounded.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/01/21 07:05 AM
Originally Posted by Topgoon
I would not be surprised if this chain/unchain system is also one of the invisible reasons why some people have found the combat in BG3 too challenging (which I honestly don't think it is, but I've seen the complaints).

The terrible movement management encourages you to simply move your party forward as a group into encounters in the most vulnerable formation, as opposed to splitting up and scouting ahead, etc. Of course every fight will seem unfair when you start them surrounded and pounded.

Not sure anyone talked about it in this thread but that's a valid point.

Reading it allow me to realize that it's exactly what I'm doing, even if I don't find the game hard at all (but now I know every Larian's cheats).
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/01/21 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by Scribe
The number of times I clicked to jump, someone got stuck, I selected them, and everyone else jumped to the other side?

Shameful. :p

Yeah, this is truly the pinnacle of game design...
Come on Larian, just address this issue already!
Posted By: Gustavo R Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/01/21 10:53 PM
I believe that Larian has some emotional attachment to this system. It looks like something you created and deeply believe is good, but everyone says it isn't. And although it isn't a terrible solution, the chain/unchain system is no better than the classic mode (BG1, BG2, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder Kingmaker...).

So, Larian needs to give this up and implement a better system (the classic) in which you simply click on someone you want to control or draw a square on the screen to select more than one character. Or select one of them, hold Shift and select the others (Backspace to select the entire group).

Perhaps they can adopt a mix of these two systems where if you select more than one character, it will show a lock for you to "link" the characters together.

And the game really needs Formation Options because it's frustrating to see your group taking strange positions on the battlefield before each fight.
Posted By: Etruscan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/01/21 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by Gustavo R
I believe that Larian has some emotional attachment to this system. It looks like something you created and deeply believe is good, but everyone says it isn't. And although it isn't a terrible solution, the chain/unchain system is no better than the classic mode (BG1, BG2, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder Kingmaker...).

So, Larian needs to give this up and implement a better system (the classic) in which you simply click on someone you want to control or draw a square on the screen to select more than one character. Or select one of them, hold Shift and select the others (Backspace to select the entire group).

Perhaps they can adopt a mix of these two systems where if you select more than one character, it will show a lock for you to "link" the characters together.

And the game really needs Formation Options because it's frustrating to see your group taking strange positions on the battlefield before each fight.

Agreed, though personally I find the current party control system terrible, in every sense. Has there been any acknowledgement by Larian of the feedback on party movement? Surely they can't stick with this system? They seemed to act fairly quickly on the feedback about the companions but I am not aware of any comment on this feedback.

I would hate to think that that their pride or insistence on their vision for BG3 would get in the way of implementing a superior party movement system, even if the basics were devised in a previous game over 20 years ago. As they say, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
Posted By: Dexai Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 16/01/21 12:14 AM
Larian aren't particularly good at self-innovation. Just look at their inventory problems, they've been largely the same since the first divinity game released ages ago.
Posted By: Etruscan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 16/01/21 12:31 AM
Originally Posted by Dexai
Larian aren't particularly good at self-innovation. Just look at their inventory problems, they've been largely the same since the first divinity game released ages ago.

That does not fill me with much hope that other issues will be rectified either, in that case. Have they bitten off more than they can chew with this game?
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 16/01/21 05:16 AM
Originally Posted by Gustavo R
I believe that Larian has some emotional attachment to this system. It looks like something you created and deeply believe is good, but everyone says it isn't. And although it isn't a terrible solution, the chain/unchain system is no better than the classic mode (BG1, BG2, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder Kingmaker...).

So, Larian needs to give this up and implement a better system (the classic) in which you simply click on someone you want to control or draw a square on the screen to select more than one character. Or select one of them, hold Shift and select the others (Backspace to select the entire group).

Perhaps they can adopt a mix of these two systems where if you select more than one character, it will show a lock for you to "link" the characters together.

And the game really needs Formation Options because it's frustrating to see your group taking strange positions on the battlefield before each fight.
I'd be incline to agree with everything, except the "it isn't a terrible solution" part. Because I genuinely think it is.
And yes, following up what Etruscan said, I share the concern about how Larian has yet to even publicly acknowledge the criticism in that sense, let alone address it.

EDIT - Fun fact: this is now the second thread in this entire section for number of replies and the first by a significant margin for number of views. Kinda hard to pretend to not notice the criticism on this specific matter at this point.
Posted By: Scribe Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 16/01/21 05:29 AM
I dont even know how this could be a debate.

The current system is indefensible. This issue was solved in BG1, at least in comparison to what we have now. Thats 1998 for those keeping track. 23 years of mechanics and game design have lead to this?
Posted By: LukasPrism Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/01/21 12:30 AM
I’m convinced it’s the way it is now because it’s a mindset thing. They want you to focus on your character and the ‘companions’ are just that, they follow your lead. Like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Dragon’s Dogma etc. They want it to be less like an RTS when you’re not in combat, more like an adventure RPG game. Until you get to combat then it becomes a tactics game. The problem is how poorly it’s been implemented from a pathfinding and AI standpoint.

It might also be partly to do with co-op play; with only one or two characters to control, the current system works well enough.

I get the feeling they’d rather keep working on their AI than change direction (as they’ve done with the group jumping), however considering they’re now dealing with the BG franchise and how so many folk in here want it to emulate typical crpgs, now might be the time to reconsider.
Posted By: Etruscan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/01/21 12:50 AM
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
I’m convinced it’s the way it is now because it’s a mindset thing. They want you to focus on your character and the ‘companions’ are just that, they follow your lead. Like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Dragon’s Dogma etc. They want it to be less like an RTS when you’re not in combat, more like an adventure RPG game. Until you get to combat then it becomes a tactics game. The problem is how poorly it’s been implemented from a pathfinding and AI standpoint.

It might also be partly to do with co-op play; with only one or two characters to control, the current system works well enough.

I get the feeling they’d rather keep working on their AI than change direction (as they’ve done with the group jumping), however considering they’re now dealing with the BG franchise and how so many folk in here want it to emulate typical crpgs, now might be the time to reconsider.

I truly hope that is not the case. If the game is being designed primarily with co-op (and/or a console port) in mind, then it would seem things will not change in this respect which for me would be a real shame. Would like to know the percentage breakdown of who plays single player, co-op, etc. I would assume the vast majority would be single player?
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/01/21 02:26 AM
Yeah I just don't understand this whole Dungeons & Double Dragon co-op emphasis.

Compromising the single player experience to accommodate a better co-op experience just seems like a bad plan. Especially since its not really necessary. The old approach to a multi-player BG game worked perfectly well, e.g. dividing control of the party by however many players you had. But that doesn't work when the whole scheme is based on controlling only one character at a time, with everyone else toggled into a follower/henchman mode.

I also think the appeal to more fidelity with the table top experience which I've heard floated around, as a way to excuse the slower play pace or wonky controls is also kind of curious, since that's not really what made the BG games successful anyway. Replaying the old games again, its hard to miss just how different the gameplay and overall play pace feel in this new one.

I don't think BG1 or BG2 feel anything like a table top campaign to be honest, at least in terms of the mechanics and overall thrust of the control scheme. It was more of an action RTS game, with a Forgotten Realms RPG presentation. The play pace was fast, and most of the combats and such resolved with melee (even from the non-warrior types) more often than not. Sure BG was kind of ridiculous with the paws of the cheetah, or the buff and haste for every encounter, but the contrast here is still pretty marked. There are other games they could have made a sequel for, that took a different approach, more in line with what they're giving us here. This game plays more like Kotor, or Neverwinter Nights or Dragon Age or even Skyrim, than it does BG1/2, despite being turn based, which is a little odd. But at least the control scheme of those games was pretty straight forward in terms of what it was trying to do, since control of the single PC in a more 3D FPS environment is well established for RPGs of that type.

BG3 right now reminds me of games like Master of Orion 3, or Zelda II: the Adventure of Link, or Dragon Age 2. Sequels where the designers opted to throw out a lot of core aspects in the gameplay that made their direct predecessors successful, in order to try some new thing. But where the new game doesn't fit the same mold, and doesn't work so well as a result. Like I'm sure sure somebody thought doing Zelda II as a side scroller to make it more like Super Mario Bros rather than the original Zelda would be a great idea, but yeah, not so much. I think Larian's situation has definitely been complicated by their Divinity titles, since clearly they wanted BG3 to appeal to the same audience as a crossover. But it just feels like the gameplay is more that, than it is a serious homage to the gameplay of the franchise they are carrying now.

I just hope they swing for the fences, and actually rework the party controls so its more in keeping with the BG feel and expectations. They have time to fix this stuff, and EA would give them an opportunity to try, but what we haven't heard anything about it from the devs. I haven't heard anyone chime here to say that they actually prefer what we have now, so you'd think changing it might be something they'd want to explore?
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/01/21 06:07 AM
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
I’m convinced it’s the way it is now because it’s a mindset thing. They want you to focus on your character and the ‘companions’ are just that, they follow your lead. Like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Dragon’s Dogma etc.
Which, conversely, is a COMPLETE mismatch with the fact that your companions can also start conversations in your place, even when you don't want them to (which is most of the times, let's be real).

But the worst thing about this is that they could easily have both.
All it needs is a "everyone follow" toggle button as an optional feature.

Originally Posted by Black_Elk
I haven't heard anyone chime here to say that they actually prefer what we have now, so you'd think changing it might be something they'd want to explore?

As I said more than once, this one may very well be one of the LEAST divisive topics in this entire forum (and among the entire community, really. Be it on Steam, reddit or Youtube commentary).

You could probably find more people willing to defend a Ronald McDonald costume as default outfit for Astarion than people willing to genuinely praise the chain/unchain system.
Even the incredibly rare attempts to defend it so far never went past a lukewarm, timid "Yeah, IT SUCKS, but maybe with some changes...".
Posted By: Scribe Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/01/21 07:57 AM
I really hope we get some official response. This system is extremely poor.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/01/21 08:49 AM
I don't see that as a problem. They just need to add the ability selection all or a few squad members. However, mostly I didn't have any problems with the chain. Quite a classic system, as in poe, even seems inconvenient to me. Also my companions for the most part avoided the "dangerous" places, not counting the traps, because the traps need to be detected.

For me, the main problem is stealth. I'm tired of sending each character to stealth, the same as it was with jumps, well, they sort of solved the problem with jumps.

So the chain itself can not be removed, they just need to add the ability to select.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/01/21 09:07 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I don't see that as a problem. They just need to add the ability selection all or a few squad members.
Well, what a bizarre thing to say. The problem is PRECISELY that they "need to add it" because it's not there.
The current (and incredibly shitty) control scheme always allows the player to control only one single character no matter what.

Quote
For me, the main problem is stealth. I'm tired of sending each character to stealth
But that's just a symptom of how the (again, incredibly shitty) system works: since it doesn't allow multiple selection, it also doesn't allow to give commands to a specific subset of units.
Even if they "fixed" it by making that the stealth toggle apply to everyone at the same time, it would STILL be a lousy solution, because the issue is precisely that the player may not want to necessarily extend a command to a full party, only to a selected part of it.

Quote
the same as it was with jumps, well, they sort of solved the problem with jumps.
That was a lousy fix as well, since, sure, autofollow on jump is mostly better than "do it manually for each one", but still leagues behind the ideal scenario of "Let me choose who needs to jump and who doesn't".


Quote
So the chain itself can not be removed, they just need to add the ability to select.
"Can not"? Says who?
Also, the entire point of the chain/unchain system is that the game in its current form doesn't want to give the player the "ability to select" [more than one unit]. Which makes it the core of the issue.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/01/21 10:37 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
"Can not"? Says who?

LUL English is not my native language, stop bully me. I mean, for me, the problem is not in the chain itself. It is not necessary remove... idk

Originally Posted by Tuco
"Let me choose who needs to jump and who doesn't".

You can separate the characters so that you can choose who to jump and who not to jump. It's actually not very difficult. I'm just not interested in constantly separating characters and sending them to different points outside of combat. Well I mean not in fight.

Originally Posted by Tuco
control only one single character

I'm sure in other games, you're essentially controlling only 1 character. Selection works essentially the same as a chain if you want to control 2-3 characters. If I need only 2 characters to go somewhere, then I calmly separate the two of them. Only "general features" like stealth don't work. That's what I don't like.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/01/21 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
You can separate the characters so that you can choose who to jump and who not to jump. It's actually not very difficult.
Sure, it's also actually very slow and convoluted to do, which once again is precisely the problem.

Originally Posted by Nyloth
I'm sure in other games, you're essentially controlling only 1 character.
Well, you'd be wrong there.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/01/21 12:40 PM
To select and move 1 character in BG3 (or DoS1/2) you have to make 3 click and drag... Probably more because it won't work each time.

I guess that's enough to understand how bad this chain is.

The game would be WAY more fluent and user friendly with a classic system. I hope they will put their pride aside because their BG3 deserve the best.
Posted By: Mogan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/01/21 05:25 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Tuco
"Can not"? Says who?

LUL English is not my native language, stop bully me. I mean, for me, the problem is not in the chain itself. It is not necessary remove... idk

Originally Posted by Tuco
"Let me choose who needs to jump and who doesn't".

You can separate the characters so that you can choose who to jump and who not to jump. It's actually not very difficult. I'm just not interested in constantly separating characters and sending them to different points outside of combat. Well I mean not in fight.

Originally Posted by Tuco
control only one single character

I'm sure in other games, you're essentially controlling only 1 character. Selection works essentially the same as a chain if you want to control 2-3 characters. If I need only 2 characters to go somewhere, then I calmly separate the two of them. Only "general features" like stealth don't work. That's what I don't like.
The problem with the current system is that you can only select and issue commands to a single character at a time. In games like Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, you can select any number of characters in your party at once and issue the same command to all selected characters at once.

If BG3 allowed for classic RTS controls, the way basically every other CRPG for the last 20 years has, your problem of issuing the sneak command would be solved, because you'd only need to drag a box around your party (or press the Select All button) and then click sneak, and every character would start sneaking. Same with movement and jump commands. Splitting the party up wouldn't need to involve dragging portraits off of or on to a dumb chain system, you would simple select the characters you want to go one way, and issue that command.

The fact of the matter is that classic CRPG controls are just faster, easier, and more user friendly than Larian's portrait chain system. Which is why there are 9 pages here of people in nearly unanimous agreement that BG3's controls suck.
Posted By: Scribe Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/01/21 08:01 PM
How can literally anyone defend this system when other games prove how much better other systems are?
Posted By: Gray Ghost Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/01/21 12:39 PM
I feel like the most solid defence anyone has come up with for the current movement system is that it's salvageable or they offer suggestions for improvement. Which is not great considering they've used this system for two other games at this point. I don't think I've seen anyone really give a reason that this system is actually better than the typical system used for cRPGs in any meaningful capacity. This really does seem to be the one point where everyone more or less agrees-the big divide is people who think it's totally intolerable and people who say that it just needs tweaking to some extent.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/01/21 01:23 PM
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I feel like the most solid defence anyone has come up with for the current movement system is that it's salvageable or they offer suggestions for improvement. Which is not great considering they've used this system for two other games at this point. I don't think I've seen anyone really give a reason that this system is actually better than the typical system used for cRPGs in any meaningful capacity. This really does seem to be the one point where everyone more or less agrees-the big divide is people who think it's totally intolerable and people who say that it just needs tweaking to some extent.
Yeah, I've been saying this for a while: there are basically no fans of this system.
Even in the best case scenarios, there's a (incredibly narrow) minority of people who seem to think it could stop being completely shit IF given a few meaningful changes.
Not exactly the warmest and most flattering endorsement.

And that's ignoring how often these rare "defenders" seem to be among the people who simply has poor familiarity with the genre and the better alternatives out there.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/01/21 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I feel like the most solid defence anyone has come up with for the current movement system is that it's salvageable or they offer suggestions for improvement. Which is not great considering they've used this system for two other games at this point. I don't think I've seen anyone really give a reason that this system is actually better than the typical system used for cRPGs in any meaningful capacity. This really does seem to be the one point where everyone more or less agrees-the big divide is people who think it's totally intolerable and people who say that it just needs tweaking to some extent.
Yeah, I've been saying this for a while: there are basically no fans of this system.
Even in the best case scenarios, there's a (incredibly narrow) minority of people who seem to think it could stop being completely shit IF given a few meaningful changes.
Not exactly the warmest and most flattering endorsement.

And that's ignoring how often these rare "defenders" seem to be among the people who simply has poor familiarity with the genre and the better alternatives out there.

No? I've played a lot of games of this genre. I first saw this system in DOS2, and it was really unusual and uncomfortable for me after other games. BUT after DOS2, it seems quite normal for me. Now it does not make me angry, I know how to use this system, I just think that it needs to be supplemented. I don't consider it something deadly terrible for the game. It can be better ofc BUT...

...DOS2 still one of my favorite games, even it have this system.

Also, other games had an active tactical pause system, and DOS2 had a different system, also very unusual. After DOS, I don't like active tactical pause system. Right now it's too fast for me and looks like a slideshow. So it's not about how much experience you have in the genre. Maybe it's about how well you adapt.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/01/21 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
No? I've played a lot of games of this genre.
Well, yes, actually?
You already proved in your previous posts to have a poor understanding about the limitations of the very system you are defending.
Posted By: Nyloth Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/01/21 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Nyloth
No? I've played a lot of games of this genre.
Well, yes, actually?


You already proved in your previous posts to have a poor understanding about the limitations of the very system you are defending.

No, I just don't know english very well, so I can't explain it to you. Btw you are quite aggressive.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/01/21 04:26 PM
Considering something is not deadly terrible doesn't mean it can't be strongly improved because it's unconfortable.

Oh wait... That's exactly what you said.

How could anyone think that players should adapt themselves to an unconfortable system instead of thinking that a bad system should be adapted to be more confortable ?

Not sure anyone would love Larian's games less with something more confortable, more user friendly, more fluent, and faster... (Less tedious, less buggy,...)
I guess I could say that people would enjoy them even more...
Posted By: Scribe Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/01/21 05:26 PM
One can be comfortable with a system, without realizing its failings.

There are many many things in life we do because we are used to it, not because its the correct or optimal way.

The movement system in this game is actually bad, it really is.
Posted By: Lunar Dante Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/01/21 06:22 PM
With the amount of money involved now, and probably later, - and this title - yes, they should do their best to give to us the best system possible... :
it is a Responsability. Being Responsible.
This is the way. And the stuff of legend.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/01/21 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Btw you are quite aggressive.
I agree. Tuco, please cut out the confrontational tone.
Posted By: Zellin Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/01/21 11:38 PM
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Nyloth
No? I've played a lot of games of this genre.
Well, yes, actually?


You already proved in your previous posts to have a poor understanding about the limitations of the very system you are defending.

No, I just don't know english very well, so I can't explain it to you. Btw you are quite aggressive.
From some previous posts I believe we (you and me) have the same native language (Russian). So feel free to ask me for help with translation.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 19/01/21 06:37 AM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Btw you are quite aggressive.
I agree. Tuco, please cut out the confrontational tone.
I have no idea of what you're talking aobut.
Just because I'm having a discussion about the merits of what someone said it doesn't mean there's animosity behind it.
Posted By: Starsmith Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 19/01/21 07:03 AM
This particular system is a bit cumbersome in some ways but I’m used to it and don’t care if they change it. It accomplishes what it needs to without me having to worry about accidentally selecting characters I don’t want selected, though I agree it isn’t fast at all.

However, this looks like a decent thread to mention the AI issues I’ve been having with it. Enemies appear to think unlinked characters are not in the same fight, even though all characters are shown in the same initiative order, causing them to prefer outright killing unconscious characters rather than attack others that can fight back.
Posted By: Nibel Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 19/01/21 10:40 PM
+1, Would be great if someone from Larian team addressed the issue. Nothing major, just that they are aware of the problem and are working on it.
Posted By: LoneSky Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 19/01/21 11:00 PM
I finished testing Early Access, and frankly the party UI will make me think twice before installing this game again, if the UI remains so cumbersome as it is now.
The game has flaws of course, many things can be improved as always, but the state of the party UI is simply at an unacceptable level for a modern game, when 20+ year old games have it perfectly, BG 1 & 2 among them.

Was fun playing it a while, but the party UI kills every desire to play it again.
Posted By: Mogan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/01/21 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by LoneSky
I finished testing Early Access, and frankly the party UI will make me think twice before installing this game again, if the UI remains so cumbersome as it is now.
The game has flaws of course, many things can be improved as always, but the state of the party UI is simply at an unacceptable level for a modern game, when 20+ year old games have it perfectly, BG 1 & 2 among them.

Was fun playing it a while, but the party UI kills every desire to play it again.
The problem with the UI is that it wasn't designed for D&D, it was designed for DoS and then modded so it sort of works for D&D. That's BG3 in the nutshell, really. : \
Posted By: Dexai Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/01/21 07:11 PM
The chaining system would be equally dreadful regardless of whether it was DoS or is a DnD game. System has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/01/21 10:06 PM
I really hope someone at Larian takes notice of this thread. Forum members can disagree on nearly every issue from the value of alignment to the best DnD edition but nearly everyone agrees that the chaining system is awful.
Posted By: nation Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/01/21 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I really hope someone at Larian takes notice of this thread. Forum members can disagree on nearly every issue from the value of alignment to the best DnD edition but nearly everyone agrees that the chaining system is awful.
+1 tbh im kinda surprised that it hasnt already been pinned or merged into a mega-thread seeing as this one is 23 pages already and there are other smaller, ancillary threads that also critique and provide feedback on the way party movement is handled in bg3, but idk - it may get more views and stay more focused in 'suggestions & feedback'
Posted By: LukasPrism Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/01/21 01:23 AM
Originally Posted by nation
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I really hope someone at Larian takes notice of this thread. Forum members can disagree on nearly every issue from the value of alignment to the best DnD edition but nearly everyone agrees that the chaining system is awful.
+1 tbh im kinda surprised that it hasnt already been pinned or merged into a mega-thread seeing as this one is 23 pages already and there are other smaller, ancillary threads that also critique and provide feedback on the way party movement is handled in bg3, but idk - it may get more views and stay more focused in 'suggestions & feedback'

Tuco keeps bumping this post, he’s very passionate about it. Hopefully it’s working, it would be great to at least have some acknowledgment from Larian.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/01/21 01:36 AM
Originally Posted by nation
+1 tbh im kinda surprised that it hasnt already been pinned or merged into a mega-thread seeing as this one is 23 pages already and there are other smaller, ancillary threads that also critique and provide feedback on the way party movement is handled in bg3, but idk - it may get more views and stay more focused in 'suggestions & feedback'
I've been told by the moderation repeatedly that it was going to be added to the "mega compendium thread", to the mega-threads subforum, etc. since this was barely a couple of pages long, but it never happened.
Honestly at some point I even stopped caring. Not even that confident it would boost the visibility of the issue in any meaningful way, and frankly if Larian will keep ignoring the issue it's going to be because they just want to, not because they didn't catch notice of the general feedback around it.

Of course, that doesn't mean I will ever stop pointing out at every chance how the current system simply BLOWS, because, as LukasPrism pointed, I am indeed fairly passionate about the topic.
More specifically, while I have my other constellation of minor complaints and grievances with the current state of this alpha, this is the closes thing to be a complete "deal breaker" for me. An aspect so genuinely and irredeemably bad that it affects my desire to invest time with the game in general.
Posted By: Mogan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/01/21 02:15 AM
Originally Posted by Dexai
The chaining system would be equally dreadful regardless of whether it was DoS or is a DnD game. System has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Oh, for sure. The portrait chain sucks. The entirely system where you can select on a single character at a time sucks. The character, inventory, and merchant screens are bad. All this was bad in DoS as well, but it's even worse in BG3 because Larian hasn't designed NEW systems specifically for the needs of a D&D CRPG, they've just modded DoS's to sort of work.
If BG3 was a fan mod for DoS2, it'd be some amazing work. As a $60 AAA game, it's pretty weak sauce right now.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/01/21 04:12 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Of course, that doesn't mean I will ever stop pointing out at every chance how the current system simply BLOWS, because, as LukasPrism pointed, I am indeed fairly passionate about the topic.
More specifically, while I have my other constellation of minor complaints and grievances with the current state of this alpha, this is the closes thing to be a complete "deal breaker" for me. An aspect so genuinely and irredeemably bad that it affects my desire to invest time with the game in general.

Tuco, I always have a hard time understanding what you are trying to say, can you repeat that without using euphemisms? wink
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/01/21 07:15 AM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Tuco, I always have a hard time understanding what you are trying to say, can you repeat that without using euphemisms? wink
If it's a stealth complaint about how vocal I am against this stuff, I'll tell you upfront that I regret nothing.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/01/21 07:59 AM
It wasn’t a stealth complaint as the emoticon should have made clear. Obviously we are the same side of this issue. Takes all sorts. You’ve got a pugilistic style but I tend to take that with grain of salt. It made me smile and I intended to communicate that.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/01/21 08:10 AM
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
You’ve got a pugilistic style but I tend to take that with grain of salt. It made me smile and I intended to communicate that.
Well, not sure what you mean with this but I DO manage a boxing gym for a living, after all.
Or I should probably say I did, given it's been close for the last three months because of COVID shenanigans that are going to be my ruin.

Also, I was just joking.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/01/21 08:27 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Also, I was just joking.

Should have realized smile God I hate this virus I hope you can recover once things get back to normal. Wish I could do more than wish . . .

Also, This chaining system is really bad.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/01/21 04:05 PM
Considering the overwhelming amount of negative feedback Larians gotten regarding party movement and management, both in this thread but also countless others on different platforms. And we still haven't heard a peep from them. I'm starting to think this is Larian right now

[Linked Image from mvcommunitycovenant.com]
Posted By: DiDiDi Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/01/21 10:33 PM
Another day, another +1
Posted By: Scribe Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/01/21 11:05 PM
Originally Posted by Peranor
Considering the overwhelming amount of negative feedback Larians gotten regarding party movement and management, both in this thread but also countless others on different platforms. And we still haven't heard a peep from them. I'm starting to think this is Larian right now

[Linked Image from mvcommunitycovenant.com]

100%

The issues that are basically understood to be accepted at this point with no feedback from Larian at all? Brutal...
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 24/01/21 10:34 AM
Well, I'm still willing to wait for the next patch (and the dev diary that will follow it) before throwing them under the bus, but admittedly if even then they will refuse to acknowledge* the problem to any extent, I'd be more than a bit pissed at the ongoing neglect.


*note: let me stress that "acknowledge" doesn't mean "solve on the spot", they just need to recognize that something needs to be changed and then they can take all the time they want to actually do it.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 28/01/21 07:01 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Well, I'm still willing to wait for the next patch (and the dev diary that will follow it) before throwing them under the bus, but admittedly if even then they will refuse to acknowledge* the problem to any extent, I'd be more than a bit pissed at the ongoing neglect.


*note: let me stress that "acknowledge" doesn't mean "solve on the spot", they just need to recognize that something needs to be changed and then they can take all the time they want to actually do it.



Exactly. If they could just acknowledge that they have seen the numerous complaints and then say if it is something they are going to look in to or not. Because if refuse to believe that they are unaware of the complaints. No, at this point Larians just being obstinate, hoping the problem will go away if they just plug their ears.
Posted By: Nibel Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 28/01/21 10:04 AM
+1

Currently, I'm on my first two-characters-only playthrough which I started so that party management is reduced to minimum (playing solo was I little too extreme for me). I'm getting mauled by minotaurs, but even that is better than dealing with the chain system with a full party.
Posted By: Mogan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 01/02/21 05:05 PM
The Baldur's Gate 3 early access has given me a whole new appreciation for Pillars of Eternity. : \
Posted By: Nibel Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 01/02/21 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by Mogan
The Baldur's Gate 3 early access has given me a whole new appreciation for Pillars of Eternity. : \
That's a shame, because the game truly has a potential, just hidden beneath a thick layer of poor design choices.
Posted By: DiDiDi Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 01/02/21 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by Nibel
Originally Posted by Mogan
The Baldur's Gate 3 early access has given me a whole new appreciation for Pillars of Eternity. : \
That's a shame, because the game truly has a potential, just hidden beneath a thick layer of poor design choices.
Amen on that. Though I don't even think the layer is that thick or that those choices go really deep. All main problems I see with the game seem relatively easily amendable, if Larian was willing...
Posted By: Mogan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/02/21 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by Nibel
Originally Posted by Mogan
The Baldur's Gate 3 early access has given me a whole new appreciation for Pillars of Eternity. : \
That's a shame, because the game truly has a potential, just hidden beneath a thick layer of poor design choices.
It really does. I WANT to like Baldur's Gate 3 badly, but the controls and UI are how the player interacts with the game. I have to deal with them 100% of the time I'm playing, and they're SO bad compared to almost every other CRPG out there. It's like if the brand new iPhone made users type everything with a T9 keypad.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/02/21 09:04 PM
Since it's somewhat related, here comes the completely gratuitous anecdotal story.


You know, I have a couple of friends on another gaming forum that are aware of this thread and at some point almost started teasing me about it.
We are talking stuff among the lines of "Just give it up, they are never getting rid of the toilet chain, lol".

But just in case someone at Larian may read this and think "See? Some people are on our side about this", here's the part that they should find a bit less amusing in perspective: these friends hate the current control scheme as well.
They don't care as much as I do about it being fixed only because they already gave up on this game, while conversely I still think there's a lot of good stuff that could be salvaged here, with few well aimed changes.
Posted By: Topgoon Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/02/21 11:34 PM
Originally Posted by Mogan
It's like if the brand new iPhone made users type everything with a T9 keypad.

Haha, I love this.



It would be a tragedy if they didn't address this movement issue. I would even be okay with them keeping the chain/unchain system (but really, please don't) as long as they enable multi-select when unchained, effectively just giving players both options.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 09/02/21 01:41 PM
Since the guy basically disappeared from around here, I'll post a summary of this discussion's salient points that the user Isaac Springsong wrote for the "megathread section" but never bothered publishing.
Leaving it buried as a "work in progress" seems a bit of a waste.
I arbitrarily omitted just a point he made about "making a grid based on bigger squares" because I fundamentally disagree with it.

Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
Primary Topic Link -> https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=679414&nt=10&page=1

Summary: The Chain/unchain mechanic feels clunky and often doesn't provide a good sense of party control during movement. It requires too much micromanagement and often results in party members moving into surfaces or other unintended areas. Players would prefer the standard cRPG selection methods (mouse click + drag, party formations, ability to set formation facing on movement, singe click to select/deselect or shift select/deselect).

Main Discussion:

Chain/unchain - This method of party selection creates several problems. Some mechanical, some thematic. The first is that it takes too long to choose which party members you want to move. This only gets worse as the party size gets bigger. Say your party is entirely selected, but now you only want to move two of them together. That now requires you to:

1. Click on one party member's portrait, dragging it far into the screen, and then rotating the cursor and releasing. This *might* separate the party member.

2. Repeat step 1, but for the other party member.

3. Click one party members portrait and drag it 'next to' the other party member and pray that they snap together.

That method is far too imprecise and often takes several seconds of trying to get nearly pixel perfect mouse dragging. Moreover, it makes for numerous situations where you are trying to do simple movements, but can't do so without multiple clicks and dragging portraits to create new groups. See the Jumping problem below for one such example.

Possible Solutions - Honestly just go play the original BG series, Neverwinter Nights, Pathfinder Kingmaker, Wasteland 3, Solasta, pretty much every other cRPG system. It was a great idea to try something new in DoS 1 & 2, but this topic has near universal agreement to use the standard party selection methods. Be able to click and drag a box around party members to select them. Be able to shift + left click to select party members. Be able to shift + keypad number for party member (i.e. Shift + 1 + 2 makes you select party members 1 and 2 together).

Movement:

  • Primary Complaints

    [**]Jumping - It is *very* frustrating that you have to individually select each party member and give them jumping instructions. This is magnified by the fact that you also need to move each party member after jumping to create enough space for the other members, except then you also need to unchain everyone because otherwise party members on the destination side will randomly run around, taking up precious landing space, as the chained movement system requires. During world exploration (out of combat), each party member should just follow the leader and automatically jump to follow the leader of their group.

    [**]Sneaking - Can't have sneaking members follow one another. Either everyone sneaks as a chained group, or you have to do each character individually. This is cumbersome if you only want 2-3 party members to sneak together.

    [**]No formation facing - Formation facing is extremely useful for careful placement and knowing where each party member will end up at the end of the move. This is crucial when you are moving near traps or other interactable environmental effects.

    [**]Bad Pathing - Related to the above, the pathing system in the game is bad. Party members often double around obstacles the player didn't know was there, run straight through easily avoidable surface areas, and generally feels clunky. A lot of this is related to characters occupying 'more space' than they should by the rules, and by character models not being able to move through one another.

    [**] Small Movements = Disaster - Right now, moving a chained party member causes the other party members to go crazy, shifting their positions back and forth and often triggering traps, encounters, surfaces, and just generally looking silly. There should be some leeway in moving a group's 'leader' (whomever the player has selected) without it causing the other party members to adjust their position (unless using something like formation facing so as to allow the player to also move the group in small increments). This is a great example of why this is bad ->



Possible Solutions - Much as the first suggestion, not need to reinvent the wheel. Which is ironic because right now the movement system is like trying to steer a car without a steering wheel. Technically possible, but no one wants to do it. The movement system of DoS 1 & 2 was thoroughly cited as one of the detrimental parts of the game. BG 3 somehow made it worse. It's time to let it die and adapt the movement schemes used by every other cRPG.

Miscellaneous:
I cannot stress enough how much the party selection and movement system exacerbates the "This game is just DoS 3, not BG 3" problem. The schemes used in BG 3 are only used elsewhere in DoS 1 & 2, nowhere else. If the schemes were good, they'd have been adopted by other games. Changing how the player interacts with their party and moves them throughout the world to more closely resemble the original series (as well as the derivative games that were clearly inspired by BG) would go a long way towards making BG 3 both a clearly distinct product from the DoS series and make it feel more like a spiritual successor to the BG series.

I'll also add this to the OP. It's probably a better summary than my half-assed original incipit.
EDIT- Nevermind. I can't edit old posts apparently.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/02/21 01:19 PM
Despite adopting a totally different approach to party movement, my main frustration with BG3 is weirdly the same one I had with BG1/2... party members getting in each others' way.

In BG2 this would happen when two characters locked into each other along the same path and just froze in place. Or when one character would randomly re-route their path because another character was blocking their fastest lane. This would result in ridiculous and unnecessary delays, where one character would go 'the long way round' or you'd have to reissuing the movement commands multiple times for each pc like herding cats. The situation was made worse by things like narrow area exits (the Planar Sphere stronghold comes to mind) or spells like haste, or equipment like the boots of speed, where some characters would travel the map at different speeds. That stuff was all annoying, and all the result of Party members not being able to pass through each other's space towards the target.

Although the whole movement scheme and UI is different in BG3, somehow this same issue of the intra-party body block persists, and the same wonky scenario plays out, where characters within the party become the main obstacle to orderly movement across the area maps. There were times in BG2 when I wished everyone would just move in a single file line with some measure of discipline. Bizarrely, in this game the whole control scheme is designed around a chain/follow concept, and yet somehow the pcs are still trying to get ahead of each other or ambling off course into traps or goblin axes etc.

I don't know how they plan to address it, but I wish they'd start by ditching the body block as a thing. Maybe the idea of "plugging gaps" or "blocking doorways" is fun or rewarding from a tactical gameplay standpoint when it comes to managing Hostile space, but its not interesting to have the party getting in its own way when it comes to friendly space.

ps. I just had an idea for how they might preserve some vestige of the chain as an idea, but used in a rather different way. If you could set a chain/tether distance beyond which the AI would not move PCs in the party that might be interesting. The point would be to select a distance. Again, ditching the body block altogether, but basically the concept would be to set a radius for how spread out the party could become from the AI trying to gain positional advantage for the companion PCs on the player's behalf. That would have been really a rather nice feature had it existed in BG1/2, if you could tether the party to the Main Character so that they wouldn't try to circumnavigate an area by darting off in the opposite direction, but while still allowing some room for naturalistic movement.

BG never offered a line formation, even though that would have been very useful for navigating around the game. The narrowest formation was the default 2 by 6 rectangle. The way I'm envisioning it, the player could issue the command from a formation button to form a line, and the PCs would fall in line forming the narrowest possible path behind the selected character. The opposite of the line would be to fan out, where the PCs try to cover more area within the radius determined by the length of chain. Basically a choice between a 'long leash' or a 'short leash.' Thinking mainly of movement outside of combat QoL. But yeah, if you really need a chain, maybe something like that on top of the RTS type scheme from the previous games would work. But that's not what we have now.

The point would be to at least give the player some input/control by allowing them to select a distance or length of the chain in a way that would be useful for exploration or movement outside of combat. That would be cool for something like scouting, where you could set your party to move in a line, but have a long lead so the party follows at a set distance behind the scout. Or for snap formations, that go from single file to spread out, and then the tether length would determine a tight formation vs a loose one from the selected PC's position. I think that would sort of fit with the way people tend to walk and trek about IRL too, esp in difficult terrain. They tend to line out with someone walking point and someone taking up the rear. If these were real adventurers they'd probably be marching single file or in pairs on the trail or when sneaking, but maybe switch it up if they sense an ambush or an encounter afoot. I could see ways it could work as a concept. In my head I'm still picturing how it would work for the infinity games though, as an adjunct to the familiar RTS movement controls of the prior BGs, not as a replacement for it.
Posted By: nation Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/02/21 02:39 PM
+1 repost support - looking fwd to larians comments on this feedback.
Posted By: Nibel Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/02/21 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by nation
+1 repost support - looking fwd to larians comments on this feedback.
I wouldn't get my hopes up. On the other hand I hope I am wrong - that's the reason I posted on this thread in the first place.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/02/21 11:23 PM
Originally Posted by Nibel
Originally Posted by nation
+1 repost support - looking fwd to larians comments on this feedback.
I wouldn't get my hopes up. On the other hand I hope I am wrong - that's the reason I posted on this thread in the first place.


Yeah, I'm starting to think they'll never comment on this issue. Or any issue at all...
Posted By: Sadurian Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/02/21 11:46 PM
I've moved this thread to he Megathread section as I think it has become large enough to warrant that classification.

I have also renamed the thread to encourage a more open discussion on BG3's party movement mechanic.
Posted By: Drath Malorn Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/02/21 07:36 AM
I don't think I had contributed to that thread yet, so here is my +1 (to the original post, and probably most of what was said before).

I had been wondering when it would get promoted to mega-thread. I don't know if there's a hard rule for this. But it certainly seems fitting.

The original title was fine. Party movement is dreadful, horrible, impractical, annoying, maddening, frustrating ... phrase it the way you want, but to put it mildly and with British-levels of understatement, it is not very good.

Larian, please :

a) Acknowledge that the current system is bad. You may have people internally who are enamoured with this system, perhaps in good part because they created it. But I think this thread demonstrates that there is a vast majority of players who dislike it. I would generally say that I don't want the game to be made by referendum and I'd rather see a game developer implement their vision. But UI-and-controls are not an area where Developer's Vision really applies. I fail to see why you would purposefully want to keep obstacles between the players and the real game.

b) Come up with a better system. Take 2 years of EA if that's what is needed. If really you cannot allow the drawing of a selection box in the main screen (Explore World screen), at least make it possible to easily select subsets of the group, and select-all. The good old Ctrl+click on portrait, together with a single button (with hotkey) to select all, would already go a long way.

Naturally, the concept of "selected character goes to designated spot and group follows one selected character" should go. It should be "selected group moves to designated spot". While there, party formation are a most natural thing to add.
Posted By: mr_planescapist Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/02/21 10:17 AM
Larian seems to have CONSOLES on their line of sight, hence the dreadfull PC controls/UI and no traditional mouse selection design like nearly all other similar RPGs 25years ago up to now.
They way they implement this seems to be hardcoded in a <PC / CONSOLE> hybrid movement system...therefore making it very difficult to do what we ask?
Posted By: Dexai Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/02/21 12:05 PM
None of the problems with BG3 are of the "this is because they started by making the UI for consoles and didn't properly edit it for PC" variety.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 14/02/21 01:33 PM
The "it's because of consoles" argument may hold some ground if:

- other titles didn't have to accommodate for console controls as well (and they do).
- keeping this solution or doing an even more console-friendly scheme was MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE with having a decent control scheme on PC (and it isn't).
- the current system was remarkably good in that sense (and... not really?).

P.S. Just for the record, absolutely not a fan of the title change. The negative connotation was deliberate and necessary.
This was never meant as a "Let's have some idle chat on how we may feel about controls" type of discussion but as a straight "The current controls suck and here's all the reasons why".
Posted By: Baldurs-Gate-Fan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/02/21 09:30 AM
I can only agree to the things OP said.
The movement Larian implemented is totaly inferior to old BG "drag a box" system. It feels unnecessary complicatet and cumbersome to attack characters and detach from main charackter. Als results in commedy like irrational movings just because leading caracter just turned around.

I would prefer that you implement basic BG1+2 movement style. Its much more accurate and easy to handle.
Posted By: Topgoon Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/02/21 06:53 PM
I would also like to re-state my support for the need for this fix.

Outside of the ease of use, this movement system has consequences to other aspect of game design as it discourages tactical movement - i.e. spreading out, scouting ahead, etc. I've seen a lot of newer player inadvertently walking into battles in terrible positions, skewing encounter difficulty for them.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 15/02/21 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
P.S. Just for the record, absolutely not a fan of the title change. The negative connotation was deliberate and necessary.
This was never meant as a "Let's have some idle chat on how we may feel about controls" type of discussion but as a straight "The current controls suck and here's all the reasons why".


I agree. The title change is rather misleadning (deliberate?) for what this thread is about. I feel like it's trying to tone down the issue.
At least change it to "BG3 Party Movement Mechanic is very bad" or something more descriptive. Becuase they are very bad, there's nothing else about it. It's not just an opinion.
And regardless of the title I'm sure we can still have an open discussion with the one person who like the current movement/control mechanics.
Posted By: Nibel Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 16/02/21 08:24 AM
Originally Posted by Peranor
I agree. The title change is rather misleadning (deliberate?) for what this thread is about. I feel like it's trying to tone down the issue.

Precisely.Why have a suggestion/feedback thread if they're going to shun valid criticism?
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 16/02/21 04:29 PM
The way Larian manages party movement is dreadful
Posted By: Nibel Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 16/02/21 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
The way Larian manages party movement is dreadful
It really is.
Posted By: etonbears Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 16/02/21 09:16 PM
Yes, it's not particularly good. I think the reason they went with their current scheme is to enable coop, and for split parties, which I remember they used on the first map for DOS ( didn't get further than that before getting bored ).

The "traditional" party movement scheme doesn't cater for multiple parties - if you have not individually selected a "partial" party, then any movement command gets applied to the whole party in whatever it's current formation is. So this is no good either.

The idea of associating characters with chains is OK, if a bit clunky, as it gives mechanism for constructing sub-parties that you can move independently. If those sub-parties can each have a formation, and the formation is fixed ( i.e. not reorganising around the last selected character ), many of the problems would go away. Not having an AI dumb enough to stand in/traverse damaging surfaces would also help.

The silliest situation I have experienced is having Gale die in combat while next to my PC. Post-combat, the rest of the party dutifully formed up behind me, and by the time Gale(shade) was through his cut-scene diatribe, his corpse had necrotized the rest of the party. This happened twice, so on subsequent plays Gale was ignored or immediately killed when he tried to wheedle his way into the party.

Serves him right.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 16/02/21 10:26 PM
Originally Posted by etonbears
The "traditional" party movement scheme doesn't cater for multiple parties - if you have not individually selected a "partial" party, then any movement command gets applied to the whole party in whatever it's current formation is. So this is no good either.

I can't see why it's more complicated with a traditionnal scheme. You still have to select/create a partial party with the chain and formations doesn't exist at all.

Group / Ungroup / Locked characters per players / Group formations... This is easy, fluent and friendly user in many games that don't use the chain mechanic.
(the end of this sentence is obvious... DoS 1/2 are the only games on earth from the beginning of the video game history using this system... a system which at best players are "ok" with).

I can't see any advantages related to the chain here. But I'll be glad to understand. Maybe you could help me with an exemple ?
Posted By: TheFoxWhisperer Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/02/21 12:02 PM
I have played multiplayer games with the old drag and select method (The BG games, IWD) and even with multiplayer it felt better and more natural than this awful chain situation.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/02/21 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
I have played multiplayer games with the old drag and select method (The BG games, IWD) and even with multiplayer it felt better and more natural than this awful chain situation.


Indeed
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/02/21 08:08 PM
The dream is dead, guys.
The "Panel From Hell II" streaming is almost over and issues about UI and party controls were never mentioned once. Not even casually acknowledged with a dismissive handwave.

I think it's safe to say we are not getting shit.
Posted By: spectralhunter Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/02/21 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
The dream is dead, guys.
The "Panel From Hell II" streaming is almost over and issues about UI and party controls were never mentioned once. Not even casually acknowledged with a dismissive handwave.

I think it's safe to sat we are not getting shit.

I’m hoping its due to it being more of a technical issue and it will take time to fix. But then again, they seemed to have time to add more cinematics...
Posted By: etonbears Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/02/21 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by etonbears
The "traditional" party movement scheme doesn't cater for multiple parties - if you have not individually selected a "partial" party, then any movement command gets applied to the whole party in whatever it's current formation is. So this is no good either.

I can't see why it's more complicated with a traditionnal scheme. You still have to select/create a partial party with the chain and formations doesn't exist at all.

Group / Ungroup / Locked characters per players / Group formations... This is easy, fluent and friendly user in many games that don't use the chain mechanic.
(the end of this sentence is obvious... DoS 1/2 are the only games on earth from the beginning of the video game history using this system... a system which at best players are "ok" with).

I can't see any advantages related to the chain here. But I'll be glad to understand. Maybe you could help me with an exemple ?

By "traditional" I meant the Infinity Engine games. As far as I can remember, there was a single party+formation mechanic; you could select (via various mouse actions) a sub-set of the party for individual orders, but you could not create multiple party+formation groups for longer-term control.

The creation of multiple parties is the only real function of the chain mechanism. In DOS there was a formation feature for a party group, but it acted as a "shape" for the group to adopt, with the currently selected character in the front; which leads to the group reorganising if you select a different character.

That's different to IE games where the group formation is set by the arrangement of the portraits, regardless of which character is selected. You could consider a chained group of characters as equivalent to the IE portrait group, allowing multiple party groups.

I think they need to merge the 2 approaches ( including mouse-selecting characters to give temporary orders ) so that they get the advantages of both. Also, not auto-moving into formation unless a group order has been given.

Unfortunately, I don't think they will go for the IE style fixed formation, because mainstream games use the follow-the-leader mechanism.
Posted By: LukasPrism Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/02/21 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
The dream is dead, guys.
The "Panel From Hell II" streaming is almost over and issues about UI and party controls were never mentioned once. Not even casually acknowledged with a dismissive handwave.

I think it's safe to sat we are not getting shit.

Swen’s playstyle is quite telling. It’s very Dragon Age, his viewpoint is low – right behind the main character (probably to show off the detail). You barely see the rest of the party, there’s no way you could use marquee select playing that way.
Posted By: Nibel Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/02/21 08:40 PM
Also he likes to separate party members for no reason.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/02/21 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Nibel
Also he likes to separate party members for no reason.
Well, that's easy to explain: because controlling them altogether is borderline painful and even if he's not willing to admit it, his heart knows.
Posted By: Scribe Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/02/21 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Nibel
Also he likes to separate party members for no reason.
Well, that's easy to explain: because controlling them altogether is borderline painful and even if he's not willing to admit it, his heart knows.

Yep, if you want to game the mechanics, this is the only way.

Miserable experience.
Posted By: Nibel Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/02/21 09:28 PM
Buying early access, we signed a deal. And it may be too late to call if off.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/02/21 01:54 AM
If the whole point of this chain control scheme is to allow us to break the party in two, and if the full party only has 4 members to begin with, then why even bother? I mean what does a split party with the chain actually do for us? 2 leaders with 1 follower each in Co-Op? Or 3 leaders where one person has to manage a tag along in a Tri-Op?

If that was the goal they could have just made it like NWN with henchmen, or like every Bioware RPG since Jade Empire.

The defining feature of BG gameplay was controlling the whole group. The group control dynamic provided pretty much all the tactical interest in combat and all the rp interest outside of combat. I don't know, I guess everyone decided at some point that what we really wanted was a successor to Everquest? or another version of Kotor, where the companions just feel like beefed up summons that you could dress?

All I've wanted since 2002 is for another game to come out with full party control for a large party with diverse and compelling companions, using D&D rules, and set in the Forgotten Realms... And every developer since just keeps dropping the ball on it.

Icewind Dale 2 was fun and set in FR, but there were no companions to speak of. ToEE was alright, even if it was buggier than an insect plague at launch, but the Greyhawk setting reminds me too much of 70s Chainmail and airbrushed vans, not the deep nostalgia I feel for late 80s early 90s FR gold box computer games. Pillars was cool with the 5 man for a renaissance attempt, but I just don't care about Eora and blunderbusses. Same deal with Pathfinder, which does most things right, but still can't quite bridge the fact that Golarion isn't Faerun.

Baldur's Gate had the family recipe chocolate chip cookie totally dialed, but then it's like someone decided it needed peanut butter or walnuts or sea salt on top, and now it just doesn't have the same taste. Alas

Always making us settle for best 2 out of 3 on this one. Why can't they just remake the thing in 3D with modern graphics? I honestly now think they should have made a Reboot rather than a Sequel. Because if the game engine could handle that, at least we'd know it would work for the next thing.

Ps. I wonder if NWN2 had launched with a BG1 reboot (as an actual developer created module, instead of a fan made module coming out 10 years later) if that game might have been more successful? One thing it did prove was that the NWN2's base game was pretty ill adapted to a fan tribute/reboot of BG1, and required a shit ton of tinkering and years on the grind to even get close to the same feel. Not so much because of the change from 2nd edition to 3rd, or the change from 2d environments to 3d, but because of the core UI defaults for character selection and party movement.

Still its an interesting thought experiment. Like could BG3's engine support a remake of BG1 that was in any way faithful to the feel of the original ? Right now I don't think it could, even with some serious liberties taken. Not in a satisfying way at any rate. And that's not because of 5e or TB or because the story wouldn't catch, but mainly because of the basic UI and control scheme they've adopted.

Since BG3 came out, I'm not sure I've sunken more than 100 hours into it, but I did replay all of BG1/2 like three times during the same period (well to Watcher's Keep anyway, I keep deciding to re-roll a new toon from the start rather than going for the Throne hehe) but at various points along the way I have paused and thought, 'damn, this battle would be fun to see play out in a turn based scheme' or 'this level would be cool to see in 3d with elevations.' Just using the basic idea adopted for the NWN2 port, where the levels are kind of doubled in size with minor features added but using the same larger shapes and sweeps, that the og game would make a really nice redux. Done that way minor changes might become interesting, like watching a different cut or adaptation of an old film. I'd be cool to see the first battle with Saravok done up in a full cinematic. Or to see Beregost or High Hedge with the same essential quests and merchants and such included, but just made huge and done up to the nines. Seems like it would be a fun pet project, but of course the wizards sold the rights to different companies. They should have kept it all under one roof, so the devs could rip or riff off the same icons or use the old VA or sound effects assets, to make a fun all-in-one for the entire saga, but with a modern engine. It would take all the pressure off the story design, since we already know basically what happens anyway, and put the emphasis on ramping all the other stuff like the environments or battles or minor NPC character flavor.

Has anyone run into Noober yet?
Neeber?
hehe

Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Nibel
Also he likes to separate party members for no reason.
Well, that's easy to explain: because controlling them altogether is borderline painful and even if he's not willing to admit it, his heart knows.

The default should just always have them separated, and the player should have to do something if they want them to move in unison, the classic ctrl+a. If its co-op and you want to take control over a companion follower then sure, have a way to say this go is chained to that guy. But the default should assume that one player is controlling all 4 characters and be easy to work with from that standpoint. I wish it could be 6, with six maybe there would be some interest in a split party with two players each controlling 3 characters, but whatever. In "follow the leader" games the only character that occupies meaningful gamespace is the protagonist, and the henchmen just sort of float around and do whatever the AI likes doing, because that's how those games are meant to work. Like Dragon Age or Kotor where the followers function like a stat boost with window dressing, but the player doesn't really control what they're all doing, or potentially controlling everything for a whole group + summons like in BG. The co-op group dynamic is kind of weird to me. I recall playing BG2 with two people and being perfectly satisfied with how that worked, but it seemed more interesting to play with a party of 2 characters there, you know rather than a party of 6 split into two groups of 3 characters under the control of 2 players. I can understand why in a TB game, you'd want more characters for a more action oriented pace, but then they kind of buck that by capping at 4 anyway. So the potential of the split party or chained groups seems diminished anyway by the focus on smaller party size.
Posted By: etonbears Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 19/02/21 11:58 PM
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
If the whole point of this chain control scheme is to allow us to break the party in two, and if the full party only has 4 members to begin with, then why even bother? I mean what does a split party with the chain actually do for us? 2 leaders with 1 follower each in Co-Op? Or 3 leaders where one person has to manage a tag along in a Tri-Op?

If that was the goal they could have just made it like NWN with henchmen, or like every Bioware RPG since Jade Empire.

I think Larian simply find this a convenient mechanism to link arbitrary numbers of players/NPCs to move together, and obviously don't care so much about party formation. I would be fine with that if each chained-group had a formation button that worked the same way as the IE games.

It would also still be helpful to have mouse selection/actions in the main scene window, not just the UI layer, in order to give individual orders without having to break up the chain-groups.

Something like this may yet emerge through EA, or it may be possible to mod changes in if Larian expose enough internal function.

Originally Posted by Black_Elk
All I've wanted since 2002 is for another game to come out with full party control for a large party with diverse and compelling companions, using D&D rules, and set in the Forgotten Realms... And every developer since just keeps dropping the ball on it.

Icewind Dale 2 was fun and set in FR, but there were no companions to speak of. ToEE was alright, even if it was buggier than an insect plague at launch, but the Greyhawk setting reminds me too much of 70s Chainmail and airbrushed vans, not the deep nostalgia I feel for late 80s early 90s FR gold box computer games. Pillars was cool with the 5 man for a renaissance attempt, but I just don't care about Eora and blunderbusses. Same deal with Pathfinder, which does most things right, but still can't quite bridge the fact that Golarion isn't Faerun.

Although FR is not perfect, it is well defined and relatively deep. I think it benefits from being conceived originally as a setting for story-telling rather than games, and, of course, for how long it has been evolving. A FR game/story is certainly the main reason BG3 interests me, far more than the rules used or mechanics, most of which don't entirely match my preferences.

Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Why can't they just remake the thing in 3D with modern graphics? I honestly now think they should have made a Reboot rather than a Sequel. Because if the game engine could handle that, at least we'd know it would work for the next thing.
There are probably various rights issues with making a reboot, as well as the fact that it no longer matches the WotC timeline. Beyond that, I would say with reasonable certainty that Larian could make 3D versions BG1/2 with their engine, but I doubt they would want to make the changes necessary ( for commercial/reputational reasons ).

Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Ps. I wonder if NWN2 had launched with a BG1 reboot (as an actual developer created module, instead of a fan made module coming out 10 years later) if that game might have been more successful? One thing it did prove was that the NWN2's base game was pretty ill adapted to a fan tribute/reboot of BG1, and required a shit ton of tinkering and years on the grind to even get close to the same feel. Not so much because of the change from 2nd edition to 3rd, or the change from 2d environments to 3d, but because of the core UI defaults for character selection and party movement.
Well, NWN2 was successful enough to have two expansions, and released soon enough after BG1/2 that a respin would probably not have had that much appeal.

NWN2 is actually very well suited to designing fan modules, but in a 3D environment it is non-trivial to create all the assets required to emulate a professionally created game. In the case of "Baldur's Gate Reloaded", most of the work was carried out by just 2 people in their spare time, who were learning as they went; it's not really a surprise it took them seven years. I think they hope to release "Shadows of Amn Reloaded" in 2021 after another 7 year development.

Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Still its an interesting thought experiment. Like could BG3's engine support a remake of BG1 that was in any way faithful to the feel of the original ? Right now I don't think it could, even with some serious liberties taken. Not in a satisfying way at any rate. And that's not because of 5e or TB or because the story wouldn't catch, but mainly because of the basic UI and control scheme they've adopted.
As I said above, I have no doubt they would be capable of making a fairly faithful respin, but I am fairly certain they would not want to change their style.

Whether anyone in the modding community cares enough about BG1/2 to try their hand using the BG3 engine will probably depend on its versatility and the extent of the usable assets.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/02/21 09:48 AM
Originally Posted by etonbears
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by etonbears
The "traditional" party movement scheme doesn't cater for multiple parties - if you have not individually selected a "partial" party, then any movement command gets applied to the whole party in whatever it's current formation is. So this is no good either.

I can't see why it's more complicated with a traditionnal scheme. You still have to select/create a partial party with the chain and formations doesn't exist at all.

Group / Ungroup / Locked characters per players / Group formations... This is easy, fluent and friendly user in many games that don't use the chain mechanic.
(the end of this sentence is obvious... DoS 1/2 are the only games on earth from the beginning of the video game history using this system... a system which at best players are "ok" with).

I can't see any advantages related to the chain here. But I'll be glad to understand. Maybe you could help me with an exemple ?

By "traditional" I meant the Infinity Engine games. As far as I can remember, there was a single party+formation mechanic; you could select (via various mouse actions) a sub-set of the party for individual orders, but you could not create multiple party+formation groups for longer-term control.

The creation of multiple parties is the only real function of the chain mechanism. In DOS there was a formation feature for a party group, but it acted as a "shape" for the group to adopt, with the currently selected character in the front; which leads to the group reorganising if you select a different character.

That's different to IE games where the group formation is set by the arrangement of the portraits, regardless of which character is selected. You could consider a chained group of characters as equivalent to the IE portrait group, allowing multiple party groups.

I think they need to merge the 2 approaches ( including mouse-selecting characters to give temporary orders ) so that they get the advantages of both. Also, not auto-moving into formation unless a group order has been given.

Unfortunately, I don't think they will go for the IE style fixed formation, because mainstream games use the follow-the-leader mechanism.

Do you like RTS games ?
I mean like Company Of Heroes, Total War and games like that ?

These games uses the same control scheme than the IE games for years.

In those games if you want to create a subgroup, you just select your units (click and drag, click + ctrl on the units or on the portrait, click + shift on portrait,...) and then you click ctrl+F1. When it's done you can select your subgroup by clicking F1. You can usually change this shortcut of course if you need F1 for something else.

This is one possible easy solution.

The chain is just a way for you to select one character while the others just follow. You can't select multiple characters in Larian's games...
Just allow us to select 2 characters at the same time and this chain becomes useless.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 26/02/21 08:32 AM
OK since nothing much changed on this front, I'm on barest bones. I now almost just wish they would take the camera away from me entirely, since I'm hanging on by the fingernails over here lol. Like I'd settle for a locked driving cam over the shoulder WASD to move in a heartbeat over this.

Please give us a way to bind the camera rotation to something other than the center mouse wheel and unlock the Z axis for it.

Right-Click or even CTRL click to rotate camera is way more ergonomic, whereas center mouse is like a constant ray of enfeeblement for my index finger.

If they could unlock the keybinds in the game settings, then we could just padmapper the thing for an xbox controller and I'd probably be 100 times happier. If I can get Swtor to work with an xbox controller on a PC, I wish the hotbar was set up so we could toggle keybinds just using a trigger to switch between cursor or driving mode. I'd give anything for just a regular ball cam eye in the sky. Why can't why we have one of those?

Movement outside of combat shouldn't feel nearly this laborious

Under normal conditions I think I'd prefer keyboard and mouse for a game of this sort, but the way this is set up I think I'll probably just have to tap out on it, at least until there is controller support for something other than Stadia. I don't know how else to articulate it, but it's just not a pleasant experience to casually move around from point A to B with the mouse for me in this game. If zoomed out for the superior tactical display, it feels like every single step forward requires an immediate camera adjustment for rotation/reorientation. Camera scouting so far ahead also just feels odd, but its basically a requirement the way it is, cause there's no casual drive/lock-cam option alternative to it.

Just from watching youtube videos of people playing on Stadia, it at least looks like a smoother and more organized vibe for the UI with the controller focus. Maybe not, I don't know, haven't tried it. But I don't feel like what we get with mouse+keyboard on PC in terms of camera control or keybinds or extended hotbar options or extra menu displays etc makes up for my frustration with the simple command and control type UI stuff at the most basic level of character movement. I was just struck by how different it looks under the controller oriented display compared to what I'm subjecting myself to over here as a lab mouse.

Maybe this thread isn't even the right place for what I'm talking about now? I think the issue I'm having is more foundational than a Party Movement mechanic concern, since even moving a single character feels onerous to me this way. I try to ignore or battle against it, charging ahead with the Polar Bear, and I can maybe go on for an hour or so before hitting the wall, but it saps all the joy from the other stuff I like about the game. Thinking about BG3 and checking these forums constantly is starting to take up a bit too much time and energy for me to sustain. I think I need to skip town on it till patch 5 or whatever. Fingers crossed for the long haul

Best
Elk
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 26/02/21 10:33 AM
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Maybe this thread isn't even the right place for what I'm talking about now? I
Does it even matter at this point?
This thread is useless anyway. Larian simply doesn't give a shit about this topic.
They seem to think there's no issue that needs to be addressed and they went out of their way to pretend that they never heard a single word of complaint about any of this.

Personally I gave up right after that awkward "Panel from Hell 2" and checking what's new now that the actual patch is out makes it even worse.
Posted By: Gustavo R Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 26/02/21 03:00 PM
I agree. This will never change.
I'm totally convinced that Larian thinks they had created a brilliant solution and we are not giving due credit to their geniality.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 26/02/21 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by Gustavo R
I agree. This will never change.
I'm totally convinced that Larian thinks they had created a brilliant solution and we are not giving due credit to their geniality.

It looks like something they could think^^
And they would probably add that those complaining are just the vocal minority. Swen never listen the vocal minority.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 26/02/21 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Gustavo R
I agree. This will never change.
I'm totally convinced that Larian thinks they had created a brilliant solution and we are not giving due credit to their geniality.

It looks like something they could think^^
And they would probably add that those complaining are just the vocal minority. Swen never listen the vocal minority.


I was there 3000 years ago... When the Mass Effect 3 ending debacle started. Back then the people who said that the ending was a complete and utter failure was told to be the "vocal minitory". But looking back now, watching videos and reading posts about the ending it seems like most people and even a large portions of gaming media are in agreement that the ending wasn't that good and thought out after all.

So maybe the people who dislike the movement mechanic in BG3 right now aren't such a minority after all. Maybe the amount of people posting about it seems small to Larian (though I don't think it is). But that doesnt necessarily mean that just a small portion of the players dislike the movement mechanics. It's just that not everyone cares enough to post about it. They either just play the game despite not liking the movement mechanics, or just give up and stop playing the game entirely and move on to another game.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 26/02/21 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by Peranor
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Gustavo R
I agree. This will never change.
I'm totally convinced that Larian thinks they had created a brilliant solution and we are not giving due credit to their geniality.

It looks like something they could think^^
And they would probably add that those complaining are just the vocal minority. Swen never listen the vocal minority.


I was there 3000 years ago... When the Mass Effect 3 ending debacle started. Back then the people who said that the ending was a complete and utter failure was told to be the "vocal minitory". But looking back now, watching videos and reading posts about the ending it seems like most people and even a large portions of gaming media are in agreement that the ending wasn't that good and thought out after all.

So maybe the people who dislike the movement mechanic in BG3 right now aren't such a minority after all. Maybe the amount of people posting about it seems small to Larian (though I don't think it is). But that doesnt necessarily mean that just a small portion of the players dislike the movement mechanics. It's just that not everyone cares enough to post about it. They either just play the game despite not liking the movement mechanics, or just give up and stop playing the game entirely and move on to another game.

Pretty sure the argument for ME3 ending wasn't "vocal minority", it was "our artistic interpretation choosing how the game should be" was what they held on to until they were forced to basically change it.
Posted By: nation Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 26/02/21 11:05 PM
id like to force larian to basically change the movement mechanic currently in bg3's ea wink , but at this point id be content (for the time being) if they just acknowledged that they are aware of the current mechanic's feedback/pain points brought up by the community
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 26/02/21 11:56 PM
Well I don't know any of these peeps, so of course I'd have no real clue what they might be thinking or care about or not. It might all be pointless sure, or maybe someday Skynet's AI will comb it all over and make a perfect game. I'm sure it's gotta be kinda rough to work all day on stuff, come home to the house forums and hear more grumbling than praise here about certain subjects lol. Or it's certainly possible some just want to get something passing out the door and onto PS5 or whatever, and then run away from D&D on a computer as fast as they can, like seems to happen with every other developer that moonlights with this franchise lol. Its a hard demographic to please. Though I do feel like they could marshal some of the critical energy in a slightly more positive direction with more engagement. The same sort of folks who bang away at forums, also tend to stick around and remain boosters, do the bug reports, write the reviews or the guides or wikis or whatever, mod the game in the afterlife, and hold on for all the expansions and follow up and help improve it over time. But I spend more energy thinking about what an idealized version of a Baldur's Gate sequel could be than engaging with the actual game product in front of me at this point. I just honestly can't get past the UI, camera and main control scheme, despite liking a lot of other things about it. I wish that wasn't so, but it is. That's alright though, there will be other games, doubtless. BG was just a special one for me, so I want desperately not to be disappointed with it, though I think that may probably impossible given the status of the ogs in my head/young-life hehe. I'll probably misty step out on EA just to avoid feeling burnt or adding to burnt feelings, though I'm sure I'll take another look after the full release or when modding opens it up. Maybe it gets there in the end somehow. One can always hope
Posted By: Etruscan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 27/02/21 12:07 AM
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Well I don't know any of these peeps, so of course I'd have no real clue what they might be thinking or care about or not. It might all be pointless sure, or maybe someday Skynet's AI will comb it all over and make a perfect game. I'm sure it's gotta be kinda rough to work all day on stuff, come home to the house forums and hear more grumbling than praise here about certain subjects lol. Or it's certainly possible some just want to get something passing out the door and onto PS5 or whatever, and then run away from D&D on a computer as fast as they can, like seems to happen with every other developer that moonlights with this franchise lol. Its a hard demographic to please. Though I do feel like they could marshal some of the critical energy in a slightly more positive direction with more engagement. The same sort of folks who bang away at forums, also tend to stick around and remain boosters, do the bug reports, write the reviews or the guides or wikis or whatever, mod the game in the afterlife, and hold on for all the expansions and follow up and help improve it over time. But I spend more energy thinking about what an idealized version of a Baldur's Gate sequel could be than engaging with the actual game product in front of me at this point. I just honestly can't get past the UI, camera and main control scheme, despite liking a lot of other things about it. I wish that wasn't so, but it is. That's alright though, there will be other games, doubtless. BG was just a special one for me, so I want desperately not to be disappointed with it, though I think that may probably impossible given the status of the ogs in my head/young-life hehe. I'll probably misty step out on EA just to avoid feeling burnt or adding to burnt feelings, though I'm sure I'll take another look after the full release or when modding opens it up. Maybe it gets there in the end somehow. One can always hope

This resonated strongly with me. I was tempted to start a new thread imploring Larian to engage with their community to at least explain some of their decisions and also let us know which feedback they are considering...but it felt like a pointless gesture to do so. If anything I would hope more engagement from them would potentially mitigate the endless screaming of the same issues into the void.

For example, I'd love to hear the reasons why Wizards can cast Cleric spells or is it a bug? Why can all classes can use scrolls? Have they even acknowledged the feedback on the party controls? If it's not going to change, just inform us so. I'm probably hoping for too much in that respect.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 27/02/21 12:26 AM
Originally Posted by Etruscan
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Well I don't know any of these peeps, so of course I'd have no real clue what they might be thinking or care about or not. It might all be pointless sure, or maybe someday Skynet's AI will comb it all over and make a perfect game. I'm sure it's gotta be kinda rough to work all day on stuff, come home to the house forums and hear more grumbling than praise here about certain subjects lol. Or it's certainly possible some just want to get something passing out the door and onto PS5 or whatever, and then run away from D&D on a computer as fast as they can, like seems to happen with every other developer that moonlights with this franchise lol. Its a hard demographic to please. Though I do feel like they could marshal some of the critical energy in a slightly more positive direction with more engagement. The same sort of folks who bang away at forums, also tend to stick around and remain boosters, do the bug reports, write the reviews or the guides or wikis or whatever, mod the game in the afterlife, and hold on for all the expansions and follow up and help improve it over time. But I spend more energy thinking about what an idealized version of a Baldur's Gate sequel could be than engaging with the actual game product in front of me at this point. I just honestly can't get past the UI, camera and main control scheme, despite liking a lot of other things about it. I wish that wasn't so, but it is. That's alright though, there will be other games, doubtless. BG was just a special one for me, so I want desperately not to be disappointed with it, though I think that may probably impossible given the status of the ogs in my head/young-life hehe. I'll probably misty step out on EA just to avoid feeling burnt or adding to burnt feelings, though I'm sure I'll take another look after the full release or when modding opens it up. Maybe it gets there in the end somehow. One can always hope

This resonated strongly with me. I was tempted to start a new thread imploring Larian to engage with their community to at least explain some of their decisions and also let us know which feedback they are considering...but it felt like a pointless gesture to do so. If anything I would hope more engagement from them would potentially mitigate the endless screaming of the same issues into the void.

For example, I'd love to hear the reasons why Wizards can cast Cleric spells or is it a bug? Why can all classes can use scrolls? Have they even acknowledged the feedback on the party controls? If it's not going to change, just inform us so. I'm probably hoping for too much in that respect.

Are you talking about Wizards actually learning the spells, or using scrolls? Because I can tell you right now, that will probably 95% not change. Honestly I have no issue with it. I think the whole idea of scrolls is anyone can use them, but depending on your build, certain classes, with certain scroll spells will work better for them. For instance a cleric using a scroll heal will heal a lot better than a wizard using it. A cleric can use a firebolt spell, but it will not hit as hard as a wizard using it etc. I may have missed it, but I never saw where Gale or the PC as a wizard could actually learn cleric spells besides scrolls. If they can actually LEARN the spells, yeah I would be against that. But using scrolls? Not so much.
Posted By: daMichi Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 27/02/21 12:54 AM
A wizard in BG3 can a actually learn cleric spells from scrolls.

I don't like it either.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 27/02/21 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by daMichi
A wizard in BG3 can a actually learn cleric spells from scrolls.

I don't like it either.

Oh yeah that is kind of messed up.
Posted By: Zarna Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 27/02/21 02:08 AM
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Please give us a way to bind the camera rotation to something other than the center mouse wheel and unlock the Z axis for it.

Right-Click or even CTRL click to rotate camera is way more ergonomic, whereas center mouse is like a constant ray of enfeeblement for my index finger.
I can't tell from your post if you are playing through Steam or Stadia. If Steam, then you can change the bindings. I have my camera rotation bound to my right click (Toggle Camera Rotate option.) Can't help you with the Z axis unfortunately, wish they would do something about it as well.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 27/02/21 03:32 AM
Good grief that would have saved me so many hours of needless irritation lol. I am indeed playing on Steam, and I have a very distinct memory of trying to set that up in the options more than a few times and giving up on it since it didn't seem to work. Perhaps because I failed to reassign the right click to cancel action/context bind? Or maybe I was goofing the final prompt? Or I really have no idea, but I just it tried again, I swapped the center mouse for right click in each field where they were listed and it worked!

I really can't overstate how much better this feels to me than center mouse to rotate default. The center mouse was hobbling me almost on the level of not being able to invert the Y axis in a shooter game (I'm inverted/goofy there and anything less is unplayable to me) but yeah, I feel almost like I was trying to play the game with mittens on and now suddenly being able to take them off heheh.

Well this might be enough for me right here, to at least continue the Druid playthrough. It's certainly still not my ideal control scheme or cam control, but its pretty amazing how something which might seem relatively minor to some, can be really major for others.

Now if only I could control the camera pitch/tilt!

But at least this way the BG3 cam can work for me on the level of TW battle view. Center mouse to rotate was literally driving me up the walls. Triple checking the forums, finally paying off. Thanks Zarna!!!


ps. I'm seriously over here just kind of marveling at how impactful that single simple change is manifesting itself for me right now. Its hard to describe, but maybe the inverted Y axis thing is a useful analog. Like who knows, maybe if I never played any flight sims when I was young the Y axis inversion would not be an issue at all for me? Maybe if it had never been introduced to me I'd have adapted the other way, or maybe I'd just not like video games at all lol. or any number of possible branches that might have come off that one. But it's too late to change now for me on that one for sure.

I think because every other game I've played that had me controlling a ball cam was right click to rotate. Or I don't know maybe its like Doom or Unreal or Goldeneye imprinting with strafes, and that type stuff that sticks. That I have a certain thing now, that I need in cam control, such that trying to do it in a slightly different way felt instantly unnatural or off putting, and I really do fixate. It's like training to do things one certain way and getting used to it by muscle memory based on other titles or programs, and then having to do it a different way with one hand tied behind the back, all the ughs. So I don't know, but when someone is saying to the devs "hey I really don't dig how this works or how it feels in controls" it could sometimes be a relatively simple type fix that makes a very large impact. Something as simple as a different keybind when I thought it was locked off just made a noticeable difference for me and has improved my attitude and playing experience markedly. Party movement controls might be a bit like that, just on a bigger scale, is I guess what I'm saying.

Anyhow, going to dive back in for a while I'm riding high on this temp reprieve. Thanks again. I swear I must have posted on the center mouse click 20 times, but didn't catch any reply's that it could be changed. Minor miracle lol

Just to further clarify, I right-click with my middle finger, but left click and center mouse wheel click/scroll with my index finger. So I am used to Camera rotation on a mouse being a right click=middle finger action, whereas typically interaction/zoom/scroll is an index finger action. And trying to reverse them legit felt like playing left handed almost.

Also just in case anyone was curious, yes, I also played the Atari Centipede standup pretty backwards stance too with the roller ball lol. But I don't want to get left behind in the new era guys! Controls are so key
Posted By: Zarna Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 27/02/21 05:17 AM
Yeah, changing that did wonders for me as well. My mouse wheel has the ability to tilt to either side (I macro this for dodging in other games) and having to click and hold it to pan the camera was bloody awful.
Posted By: Elessaria666 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 27/02/21 06:00 AM
Originally Posted by Etruscan
[quote=Black_Elk]For example, I'd love to hear the reasons why Wizards can cast Cleric spells or is it a bug? Why can all classes can use scrolls? Have they even acknowledged the feedback on the party controls? If it's not going to change, just inform us so. I'm probably hoping for too much in that respect.

Wizards learning spells from other lists is a bug and will be fixed according to a reply in the latest patch thread.

Everyone using scrolls is probably a Larian way to make combat more "fun" for the casual market that pays the bills.

I hate the movement system, but I'm 99% sure it is the way it is not because they think their system is better for a CRPG, but because it works for consoles as well as PCs. 2020 saw console market share overtake PC in terms of gamers and revenue and any developer that wants to make money needs to design for both. That's just a necessity of the market these days and it's why I spent more time in character creation in Dragon Age II than I did playing the game. The changes they made to adapt to console players killed the franchise for me because it didn't feel like a CRPG of old to me.

BG3 is the first game since then to scratch that itch, but I accept it's going to be a compromise. At this point I'd be happy just to have:

(A) A toggle switch for all party members to hold position until I explicitly move them,

(B) A requirement to manually leave turn-based mode after a combat is complete so I can both deal with Death Save Thows, healing, re-grouping before allies kill themselves, trigger conversations I'm not ready for, jump off cliffs, set off traps, or GO FOR THE EYES BOO!!!
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 27/02/21 08:56 AM
Originally Posted by Zarna
Yeah, changing that did wonders for me as well. My mouse wheel has the ability to tilt to either side (I macro this for dodging in other games) and having to click and hold it to pan the camera was bloody awful.
I wish I bothered before rebinding this stuff, because it makes rotating the camera orders of magnitudo more comfortable (and it's something I tend to do often, too, when the game doesn't make it painful).

For a moment playing with this new setup made the controls feel almost bearable... Until I instinctively tried to click and drag to select multiple characters and I remember what game I was playing.

On a side note, I have to say that alternating between this and Wrath of the Righteous makes the contrast even harder to digest.
Posted By: Etruscan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 27/02/21 09:26 AM
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Are you talking about Wizards actually learning the spells, or using scrolls? Because I can tell you right now, that will probably 95% not change. Honestly I have no issue with it. I think the whole idea of scrolls is anyone can use them, but depending on your build, certain classes, with certain scroll spells will work better for them. For instance a cleric using a scroll heal will heal a lot better than a wizard using it. A cleric can use a firebolt spell, but it will not hit as hard as a wizard using it etc. I may have missed it, but I never saw where Gale or the PC as a wizard could actually learn cleric spells besides scrolls. If they can actually LEARN the spells, yeah I would be against that. But using scrolls? Not so much.

I realise I didn't make my questioning particularly clear but I was asking why Wizards can learn/cast Cleric spells and the next question should have been why can non-caster/magic classes use scrolls? I totally see your points on a Wizard casting a Cleric scroll but far less effectively, that makes sense and feels immersive. Is it the case in-game that if a Wizard casts a Cleric spell scroll that it's not as efficient? I'd be interested to see.
Posted By: Gustavo R Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 27/02/21 03:12 PM
The problem with this is: cleric spells come from their deities and wizard spells come from the Weave. They are different types of power, at least in the D&D's Lore.

I like the idea that everyone can use scrolls, with different degrees of success. In Pillars of Eternity it is necessary to have Lore skill points, in Pathfinder Kingmaker you must have Use Magic Device skills, etc.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 27/02/21 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by Etruscan
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Are you talking about Wizards actually learning the spells, or using scrolls? Because I can tell you right now, that will probably 95% not change. Honestly I have no issue with it. I think the whole idea of scrolls is anyone can use them, but depending on your build, certain classes, with certain scroll spells will work better for them. For instance a cleric using a scroll heal will heal a lot better than a wizard using it. A cleric can use a firebolt spell, but it will not hit as hard as a wizard using it etc. I may have missed it, but I never saw where Gale or the PC as a wizard could actually learn cleric spells besides scrolls. If they can actually LEARN the spells, yeah I would be against that. But using scrolls? Not so much.

I realise I didn't make my questioning particularly clear but I was asking why Wizards can learn/cast Cleric spells and the next question should have been why can non-caster/magic classes use scrolls? I totally see your points on a Wizard casting a Cleric scroll but far less effectively, that makes sense and feels immersive. Is it the case in-game that if a Wizard casts a Cleric spell scroll that it's not as efficient? I'd be interested to see.

I mean it has in my experience. I don't have any numbers on it, but when my other classes try to use a healing scroll it doesn't seem to barely even work. When my cleric does, it seems to give a larger chunk of health. But I am sure SOMEONE has done actual numbers on it in here lol. It appears the same with damage spells.
Posted By: Etruscan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 27/02/21 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
I mean it has in my experience. I don't have any numbers on it, but when my other classes try to use a healing scroll it doesn't seem to barely even work. When my cleric does, it seems to give a larger chunk of health. But I am sure SOMEONE has done actual numbers on it in here lol. It appears the same with damage spells.

Fair enough, anecdotal evidence is good enough for me right now. I’m geeing myself to try another playthrough soon, it’s been a few months.

And yes undoubtedly someone has done the numbers; kudos to those who do because my brain is not set up to even contemplate about how one goes about getting that sort of info!
Posted By: Etruscan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 27/02/21 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by Gustavo R
The problem with this is: cleric spells come from their deities and wizard spells come from the Weave. They are different types of power, at least in the D&D's Lore.

I like the idea that everyone can use scrolls, with different degrees of success. In Pillars of Eternity it is necessary to have Lore skill points, in Pathfinder Kingmaker you must have Use Magic Device skills, etc.

This is true and the thought had escaped my mind regarding the difference in how they cast spells.

I did read somewhere the feedback has been noted so it sounds as if they will fix it, which is good news.
Posted By: Dark_Ansem Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 27/02/21 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by Gustavo R
The problem with this is: cleric spells come from their deities and wizard spells come from the Weave. They are different types of power, at least in the D&D's Lore.

I like the idea that everyone can use scrolls, with different degrees of success. In Pillars of Eternity it is necessary to have Lore skill points, in Pathfinder Kingmaker you must have Use Magic Device skills, etc.

But don't Cleric spells use the Weave anyway? Which is why Mystra is probably the most important God of the D&D pantheon.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 28/02/21 12:24 AM
Originally Posted by Zarna
Yeah, changing that did wonders for me as well. My mouse wheel has the ability to tilt to either side (I macro this for dodging in other games) and having to click and hold it to pan the camera was bloody awful.

Your mouse wheel tilts side to side? That is freaking awesome, what mouse is that?
Posted By: Zarna Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 28/02/21 02:13 AM
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by Zarna
Yeah, changing that did wonders for me as well. My mouse wheel has the ability to tilt to either side (I macro this for dodging in other games) and having to click and hold it to pan the camera was bloody awful.

Your mouse wheel tilts side to side? That is freaking awesome, what mouse is that?
Logitech G600. There is also a ring finger button smile
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 28/02/21 05:59 AM
The chain is still pretty dreadful though I gotta say. My main issue now is that when the main character is unchained to scout then trying to rechain them just causes the selected character's portrait to disappear. Once all 4 characters were unchained, the portraits just switched places without showing the chain animation regardless of which direction I'd peal away or back into a neighboring portrait. Had to reload a couple times. I'd rather just have a click to select, and click to group without having to do like a magic magnet chain swipe maneuver with the cursor lol. I don't like the click and drag wherever it shows up right now, which is mainly with the portraits, hotbar and then in the inventory. I wish it could be more click and stick than click and hold to drag if that makes sense.

I like that the chain animation feels less pronounced now, and the highlight felt better, but then it fritzed out and I had to focus on it again.

Another thing I run into constantly with the drive style camera view, is accidentally left clicking the head of another party member and initiating a talk instead targeting of the ground.

At max zoom-in the companions will jog into frame when I'm trying to keep up the pace, or a head will pop up at the last second and snag the click intended for the floor. I'd be better if they would hang back at a further remove so that can't happen when in a driving angle. Even if it gave us like 20 or 30 degrees of pitch on the Z Axis for the camera it would hold up much better for surveying and get rid of the visor view feeling it has right now. If we could swing up along the same arch that we can swing back when zooming out it would probably feel more fluid for me. I really wish I could just control the camera in 360 though and lock it to the MC. I'd probably play that way the entire time outside of combat
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 28/02/21 02:15 PM
at least give me a hotkey to automatically unchain/chain the whole group. This mobile game nonsense is frustrating.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 01/03/21 12:18 PM
For the life of me, I'll never understand why Larian so adamantly refuse to even acknowledge this issue. Is it because of some kind of hurt pride?
At this point I've learned that Larian is probably one of the worst EA developers when it comes to meaningful communication with the EA testers, and the community in general. But they must at least be able to say something?? (And not just about this issue)

Are you aware that a large portion of the testers very much dislike the current lacklustre movement and party control mechanics? Yes or no?
If aware/now that you are aware, is this something you are going to look in to? Yes or no?

I'm not asking for a roadmap that goes in to full detail when and exactly how you are going to address this issue. Just a simple yes or no answer. Can't be that hard can it?


And again, I must say that i'm not a fan of the title change the mods did to this thread. The current title feels very disingenuous for what this thread is trying to convey.
Posted By: andreasrylander Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 02/03/21 02:21 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Mod edit: previous title; "The way Larian manages party movement is dreadful"


Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.

Aaaanyway, back to the topic.

This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.


There are several problems with the Larian solution:

- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.

I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.

I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?


I completely agree with the OP here. I am a bit baffled because party selection and movements have been pretty damn good for decades now, and in BG3 it's subpar and clunky. o_o
Posted By: Turglayfopa Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/03/21 11:22 AM
"- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position."

That line says it perfectly.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/03/21 09:19 PM
So, there's been this conversation (by email) between a user and a Larian employee circulating, but despise the fact both the participating parts gave their agreement to make it public, one mod keeps deleting it (without a single warning, too, which felt more than a little disrespectful on the work I put to comment it... But hey).

Still, since I can't quote it directly, in this second attempt I'm going to comment on the gist of it.

In chronological order of mention, what we learned from that conversation is the following:

- They never promised RTS-style controls and they shown the current control scheme before the EA started, so the fact that people may like them the most over the Larian solution is irrelevant. We knew what we were buying.
- Just because some people prefer RTS-like controls, it doesn't mean that everyone does. In fact a lot of people "probably" like the current system more and both system have advantages and disadvantages. Except, no evidence for the existence of this "lot of people" was ever shown, nor we ever got our chance to read what the advantages of the current system are supposed to be.
- ...In fact, when this lack of evidence was pointed in a subsequent reply, the rebuttal was that since no claim that the number was "significant" was ever made, evidence to back said claim was not required. I'm a bit at loss about the consistency here.
- Still, the game was tested by a bunch of random guys at PAX and no formal complaint about the controls was moved there, which seems like conclusive evidence that everything is fine. Not to mention DOS 2 won a lot of awards, which apparently strongly suggests its design was flawless from top to end and Larian can do no wrong. The fact that this control scheme was heavily criticized on DOS 2 as well is pointed, but completely glossed over.
- The "uniform agreement" on this forum about the system being bad is briefly acknowledged, but we are a vocal minority. And so are probably all the people on reddit, Steam, Youtube videos and comments and on any other gaming boards that share our opinion.
- Also, none of us gave our feedback after playing at PAX for fifteen minutes while being rushed by the next guy standing in queue, so what the hell do we know, really? We "don't represent the players in general". Whatever that means.

Basically, Larian never cared about what we thought of this aspect of the game, so no feedback about it was ever required or welcomed.
If we don't like it, too bad, we need to suck it down. They have no interest in making it better because they think it's perfectly fine as it is.

We never stood a chance, really.
Posted By: grysqrl Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/03/21 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
<stuff from an email conversation>
Basically, Larian never cared about what we thought of this aspect of the game, so no feedback about it was ever required or welcomed.
If we don't like it, too bad, we need to suck it down. They have no interest in making it better because they think it's perfectly fine as it is.

We never stood a chance, really.
That's both disappointing and completely unsurprising.

I have worked with game designers in various capacities, though the most frequent is as a playtester/sounding board. You can usually tell which games are going to come out well pretty quickly based on what sorts of questions the designer is asking, the fidelity of the prototype relative to the design stage, and how they respond to feedback/criticism.

Larian isn't asking any questions. The fidelity of their prototype is way too high in light of numerous fundamental issues with underlying systems that really ought to be addressed first. And they seem to ignore most feedback and criticism (despite asking for it). They're showing all of the signs of a designer that is super-attached to their baby and took it way too far before stopping to check if the bones were any good. Those games rarely see the light of day and when they do, they generally don't turn out well.
Posted By: DragonSnooz Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/03/21 10:03 PM
Well, to be fair RTS controls are not the end-all-be-all of videogame control schemes. It's fair to say that party movement can be improved, but I don't understand why would we ask Larian to overhaul the control scheme for the game.

In my opinion, the control scheme has never been the issue.

How well dangerous terrain, traps, etc. are communicated on screen, party members walking through fire when it wasn't clicked on, and the camera bouncing around were issues. Those issues would still be there with an RTS control scheme.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/03/21 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Well, to be fair RTS controls are not the end-all-be-all of videogame control schemes. It's fair to say that party movement can be improved, but I don't understand why would we ask Larian to overhaul the control scheme for the game.

In my opinion, the control scheme has never been the issue.

How well dangerous terrain, traps, etc. are communicated on screen, party members walking through fire when it wasn't clicked on, and the camera bouncing around were issues. Those issues would still be there with an RTS control scheme.
Well, what can I say? I disagree pretty much on all fronts.
Saying that "RTS controls aren't the end-all-be-all" sounds a bit dismissive without offering a valid alternative.
It ignores the crux of the issue: if you can come up with something better feel free to describe it, but so far they are the pinnacle of the genre and for a good reason: they are the control scheme born and refined precisely in the genre that makes MANDATORY to control of multiple units as quickly, simply and intuitively as possible. How good they are at it? Good enough to be the standard in their own competitive genre.

Why would we ask Larian to overhaul the control shceme? Who else are we supposed to ask to, for god's sake? They are the ones developing it.

And something situational as "dangerous terrain and traps" feel incredibly marginal compared to an issue that will be front and center of the experience for the entirety of a gameplay session.

If anything, I'd agree that with revamped controls a tweaked camera would be also welcomed, but that pretty much comes with the territory. In particular I would gladly do without the inane degree of deformation that comes between things at different levels of elevation and/or distance from the lens.
Posted By: DragonSnooz Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 05/03/21 12:26 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Well, to be fair RTS controls are not the end-all-be-all of videogame control schemes. It's fair to say that party movement can be improved, but I don't understand why would we ask Larian to overhaul the control scheme for the game.

In my opinion, the control scheme has never been the issue.

How well dangerous terrain, traps, etc. are communicated on screen, party members walking through fire when it wasn't clicked on, and the camera bouncing around were issues. Those issues would still be there with an RTS control scheme.
Well, what can I say? I disagree pretty much on all fronts.
Saying that "RTS controls aren't the end-all-be-all" sounds a bit dismissive without offering a valid alternative.
It's not dismissive, lots of games have control schemes. For Baldur's Gate 3, I don't see any criteria that makes one control scheme more valid than the other. We're not harvesting minerals and vespene gas to build a barracks in Baldur's Gate 3. Innately Baldur's Gate 3 is not a micro-intensive game, the issue is that the characters get stuck on objects or surfaces which was an issue in D:OS2. (The difference with D:OS2 is that the party members had larger HP pools than D&D/BG3 so the player could laugh about it in that game. Baldur's Gate 3 it's a nuisance. And all derivatives of jump didn't have fall damage in D:OS2.)

Essentially small issues with controls in D:OS2 are in our face in Baldur's Gate 3.

Originally Posted by Tuco
It ignores the crux of the issue: if you can come up with something better feel free to describe it, but so far they are the pinnacle of the genre and for a good reason: they are the control scheme born and refined precisely in the genre that makes MANDATORY to control of multiple units as quickly, simply and intuitively as possible. How good they are at it? Good enough to be the standard in their own competitive genre.
The game isn't fast-paced so you don't need to move the party at a fast pace.
The AI should be smart enough to move safely out of combat. Not jump off a cliff and fall prone, or walk through fire, or get stuck when told to jump over fire.

Originally Posted by Tuco
Why would we ask Larian to overhaul the control shceme? Who else are we supposed to ask to, for god's sake? They are the ones developing it.
I'm just saying an overhaul isn't needed, but refinement. It's okay to point out issues with party movement, but I don't see the value in telling Larian to go a specific route. It's okay to point out the problem and let Larian address it internally.

Originally Posted by Tuco
And something situational as "dangerous terrain and traps" feel incredibly marginal compared to an issue that will be front and center of the experience for the entirety of a gameplay session.

If anything, I'd agree that with revamped controls a tweaked camera would be also welcomed, but that pretty much comes with the territory. In particular I would gladly do without the inane degree of deformation that comes between things at different levels of elevation and/or distance from the lens.
I'm hoping for the best for the employees who have to improve camera movement. The camera has issues with so many sections of the map.

The issue is the execution of the control scheme. RTS controls would give more opportunities to micro-manage the team, but that still wouldn't fix the issues.

Do we really want to have to micro each character around a hazardous surface, jumping obstacle, etc?
Or should the AI be smart enough to avoid issues out of combat?

The questions above are the point I'm trying to make. (For example, I'd only be asking for standard RTS controls if BG3 was real-time PvP like Warcraft 3 or Dota 2)

There are some out-of-the-box solutions:
F1-4 already lets us select characters. It would be nice if pressing F did the action group all/ungroup all.
The game doesn't need a scheme as complex as Starcraft 2.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 05/03/21 07:38 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
So, there's been this conversation (by email) between a user and a Larian employee circulating, but despise the fact both the participating parts gave their agreement to make it public, one mod keeps deleting it (without a single warning, too, which felt more than a little disrespectful on the work I put to comment it... But hey).
Your attempts to repost the email conversation were removed by Larian and the moderation team because, whilst Larian have a considerable tolerance for negative criticism of both themselves and the game, this does not extend to vexatious and malicious misrepresentation of private email conversations. In any case, Larian holds the absolute right to determine what is published on their forums. I mentioned the issue of Copyright following a previous attempt to post the conversation and I will restate it here; a email author holds the right of control of his or her work (within the usual legal limits), and publishing private correspondence is unlawful without permission. Given the wild and deliberate misinterpretations contained therein, the publishing of the conversation is not constructive criticism in any way, shape or form, and serves only to cause division and discontent.

Tuco; you have been warned several times now about your abrasive posting style and yet you appear determined to ignore all warnings and continue as though forum rules and guidelines do not apply to you. I am here to tell you that not only do they apply in full, but that you may consider yourself on a final warning.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 05/03/21 08:07 AM
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Well, to be fair RTS controls are not the end-all-be-all of videogame control schemes. It's fair to say that party movement can be improved, but I don't understand why would we ask Larian to overhaul the control scheme for the game.

In my opinion, the control scheme has never been the issue.

How well dangerous terrain, traps, etc. are communicated on screen, party members walking through fire when it wasn't clicked on, and the camera bouncing around were issues. Those issues would still be there with an RTS control scheme.

Hmmm I think you're right pointing at that issues and as you said, devs would be able to deal with it.

It doesn,'t change the fact that it's tedious to select one or two characters.
They are also always moving in unexpected ways.
Who never see a characters climbing a ladder, then you select another one, the previopus characters go down the ladder,...
Combats end near an AoE spells, characters regroup, they die in the AoE because they "have to move" all the time...
You have to drag portait multiple times to group/ungroup...
Sometimes encounters begin because a character move a bit too close while you were falling back with the selected one...
You can never choose the leader (ok, thinking that the leader should always be on the left is something personnal^^)

Anyway there are many many situations where it makes no sense and there are many situations where it's very hard to control your characters fluently.
A group/disband button would probably solve a few of them but it would only be a bandage on a bad system.

Again, just look at the survey that were done. It's pretty clear that no one really LIKE this scheme (even if some are "fine" with it).

I already said it on this topic but to compare, everyone should try to play DoS2 and BG2 (or any other EE) on console.
Obviously it's harder for both systems on console but it becomes really really hard for DoS2.

It shouldn't have to be so complicated and I don't really see any positive points to this scheme.
I know that "the majority" didn't report it as a problem but I also never read anything saying that it was good.

I'd be glad to have an answer from Larian's game designer about it.
Not to argue but just to ask questions and try to understand why they think it's fine because both in MP and in SP, I can't really see the value compared to what was done i.e in the old I.E games.

I hate this system but obviously, I won't leave a bad review because of it.
Posted By: Dexai Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 05/03/21 12:02 PM
An example of what would hugely improve the current system without overhauling it would be stopping the rumba scene every time you change selected character.
Posted By: Baldurs-Gate-Fan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 05/03/21 01:04 PM
I wonder when people will eventualy realize that Larian doesnt care for community.........
They wanted to boost sales on their new RPG. There is no better way to set it in a beloved franchise and give it a Name that makes people throw their wallets at them.

Be serious.... if anyone of you would have the chance to swim in money just for giving your product a good name. EVERYONE would have done this.
They never wanted to make a Baldurs Gate sequel that honors its predecessors. They wanted to boost THEIR Rpg. That reality and no matter what anyone says... thats how business is made!

If you realy dissatisfied then just never ever buy a game from Larian again.
Posted By: jfutral Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 05/03/21 01:07 PM
Originally Posted by Dexai
An example of what would hugely improve the current system without overhauling it would be stopping the rumba scene every time you change selected character.

This and so many little things that would improve things. Like thinking I've clicked ahead and all of a suddne may party turns around to try to climb a tree or some other scenery I didn't even know was there.

Joe
Posted By: Sadurian Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 05/03/21 01:10 PM
Originally Posted by Baldurs-Gate-Fan
I wonder when people will eventualy realize that Larian doesnt care for community.........
They wanted to boost sales on their new RPG. There is no better way to set it in a beloved franchise and give it a Name that makes people throw their wallets at them.

Be serious.... if anyone of you would have the chance to swim in money just for giving your product a good name. EVERYONE would have done this.
They never wanted to make a Baldurs Gate sequel that honors its predecessors. They wanted to boost THEIR Rpg. That reality and no matter what anyone says... thats how business is made!

If you realy dissatisfied then just never ever buy a game from Larian again.
Baldurs-Gate-Fan: you are another poster who seems to be going out of his way to be objectionable and edgy. Keep your posts constructive and lay off the mindless 'trash talking'.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 05/03/21 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by Sadurian
Your attempts to repost the email conversation were removed by Larian and the moderation team because, whilst Larian have a considerable tolerance for negative criticism of both themselves and the game, this does not extend to vexatious and malicious misrepresentation of private email conversations.
I have no idea how a direct quote would even begin to qualify as "malicious misrepresentation",
Not to mention the person that initially posted the entire conversation already confirmed that both parts agreed to make said conversation public.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 05/03/21 05:10 PM
<quote removed by moderator>

If Larian's going to be that dismissive and flippant about criticism I'm note sure why they even bothered to release this game in Early Access to start with. A little bit depressing i must say.

And yeah, how in the nine hells can a direct quote qualify as "malicious misrepresentation" ?? Especially if both parts gave their consent.
Now, your summary above on the other hand may be considered misrepresentation if they think that things have been taken out of context. But since you're not allowed to post what was actually being said, down to the letter... Yeah... Not sure what they are going on about here.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 05/03/21 05:15 PM
I think the ruling on the email conversation was pretty clear. Any more discussion on the subject will be removed. Persistent offenders may be disciplined.
Posted By: Gustavo R Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/03/21 12:44 AM
The problem with the way Larian manages the party (chain/unchain), the camera controls, the characters going through the fire, the flawed inventory system, etc... The problem with all of this is that BG3 is a game to be play for hundreds of hours. And because of that, something that isn't all bad, but is not well polished, ends up irritating you. After 100 hours of having to get angry dozens of times, you inevitably start to hate the game.

So these aspects need to be polished, and we are all here to help. Larian needs to see this.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/03/21 02:37 AM
Originally Posted by Gustavo R
The problem with the way Larian manages the party (chain/unchain), the camera controls, the characters going through the fire, the flawed inventory system, etc... The problem with all of this is that BG3 is a game to be play for hundreds of hours. And because of that, something that isn't all bad, but is not well polished, ends up irritating you. After 100 hours of having to get angry dozens of times, you inevitably start to hate the game.

So these aspects need to be polished, and we are all here to help. Larian needs to see this.

Although I have found some aspects irritating, having some unpolished issues in ALPHA really doesn't make me hate the game. If these are issue when it launches, than that is another story. Rather than let it ruin my play during ALPHA, I just learn to adapt and enjoy the game, not let little issues bother me. The chain is unwieldy, camera controls are a little goofy, but I have played much worse in released games. I wouldn't expect much better with inventory, because it is pretty much the same in all their games lol. But overall, I will hold my judgment for the release, when it is suppose to be at its final form.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/03/21 07:05 AM
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by Gustavo R
The problem with the way Larian manages the party (chain/unchain), the camera controls, the characters going through the fire, the flawed inventory system, etc... The problem with all of this is that BG3 is a game to be play for hundreds of hours. And because of that, something that isn't all bad, but is not well polished, ends up irritating you. After 100 hours of having to get angry dozens of times, you inevitably start to hate the game.

So these aspects need to be polished, and we are all here to help. Larian needs to see this.

Although I have found some aspects irritating, having some unpolished issues in ALPHA really doesn't make me hate the game. If these are issue when it launches, than that is another story. Rather than let it ruin my play during ALPHA, I just learn to adapt and enjoy the game, not let little issues bother me. The chain is unwieldy, camera controls are a little goofy, but I have played much worse in released games. I wouldn't expect much better with inventory, because it is pretty much the same in all their games lol. But overall, I will hold my judgment for the release, when it is suppose to be at its final form.

Hold your judgement for the release won'tt help Larian to know that you don't like how things are.

If issues aren't reported because you have assumptions for the release, they won't change anything. That's not what an EA is for.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/03/21 09:15 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Hold your judgement for the release won'tt help Larian to know that you don't like how things are.

If issues aren't reported because you have assumptions for the release, they won't change anything. That's not what an EA is for.
I lost count of how many times this has been pointed out already, and yet there's never lack of the occasional zealot willing to scream at full lungs "Hold your judgement until release!" for the sake of damage control.
Still not sure who's that's supposed to help. No matter the context, dedicated Yes Men never contributed to make anything better.

Also, the argument "It's not good, but I've also seen worse" is not exactly a flying endorsement, nor a goal to set for. Imagine what a charming review quote typesetted on the game's box "It controls like crap, but we have played worse".
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/03/21 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Hold your judgement for the release won'tt help Larian to know that you don't like how things are.

If issues aren't reported because you have assumptions for the release, they won't change anything. That's not what an EA is for.
I lost count of how many times this has been pointed out already, and yet there's never lack of the occasional zealot willing to scream at full lungs "Hold your judgement until release!" for the sake of damage control.
Still not sure who's that's supposed to help. No matter the context, dedicated Yes Men never contributed to make anything better.

Also, the argument "It's not good, but I've also seen worse" is not exactly a flying endorsement, nor a goal to set for. Imagine what a charming review quote typesetted on the game's box "It controls like crap, but we have played worse".

The only Zealot I see here Tuco, is you! All you do is carry on like a child because BG3 doesn't meet your reminiscent erection for a 20 year old game. Screaming and yelling in every thread about how everything sucks because it doesn't have this or that, when we don't know WHAT they will have at the end of alpha. You misrepresent what people say in emails (yes I read that email too) to try and paint Larian as some arrogant, player hating, incompetent developers with absolutely nothing constructive in your "criticisms". And then have the nerve to resort to name calling anyone that does not jump on your bandwagon. I honestly don't care if I get reprimanded by the mods, but I am sick and tired of your low brow, neckbeard, D&D elitest insults. I mean if you hate the game so much, WTF ARE YOU DOING HERE! Besides trying to tear down something that doesn't match your personal vision of "what the game should be" I am sorry how many games have you made? What is your experience in game development? Or are you just some DM wannabe loser that only gets pleasure by showing how "knowledgeable" you are, and how everyone should listen to you?

And to the mods, if you feel you have to take action on me so be it, but I am sick and tired of this posters insults, berating and aggressive tone towards anyone that disagrees with him. My ban or suspension will be well worth it.
Posted By: Sadurian Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/03/21 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
I lost count of how many times this has been pointed out already, and yet there's never lack of the occasional zealot willing to scream at full lungs "Hold your judgement until release!" for the sake of damage control.
You were told to rein it in and that you were on a final warning, yet you manage to be confrontational and abrasive less than a day later. We can do without your brand of posting for 14 days.

Originally Posted by Pandemonica
The only Zealot I see here Tuco, is you! All you do is carry on like a child because BG3 doesn't meet your reminiscent erection for a 20 year old game. Screaming and yelling in every thread about how everything sucks because it doesn't have this or that, when we don't know WHAT they will have at the end of alpha. You misrepresent what people say in emails (yes I read that email too) to try and paint Larian as some arrogant, player hating, incompetent developers with absolutely nothing constructive in your "criticisms". And then have the nerve to resort to name calling anyone that does not jump on your bandwagon. I honestly don't care if I get reprimanded by the mods, but I am sick and tired of your low brow, neckbeard, D&D elitest insults. I mean if you hate the game so much, WTF ARE YOU DOING HERE! Besides trying to tear down something that doesn't match your personal vision of "what the game should be" I am sorry how many games have you made? What is your experience in game development? Or are you just some DM wannabe loser that only gets pleasure by showing how "knowledgeable" you are, and how everyone should listen to you?

And to the mods, if you feel you have to take action on me so be it, but I am sick and tired of this posters insults, berating and aggressive tone towards anyone that disagrees with him. My ban or suspension will be well worth it.
You have been told before to report problems to the mods rather than to wade in and get involved in a shit-flinging match. In this case, you have been caught up in the fallout as predicted/warned. Take a 3-day break to cool off.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/03/21 06:06 PM
RIP Tuco
2014-2021
He died as he lived, being confrontational and spreading his truth. The forums won't be the same without him.

But yes, I fully agree with him and Maximuuus that now is the time to provide feedback, not after the game is fully released. Not that I think party movement in BG3 will actually be changed.

@Gustavo R makes a good point that something that is even slightly annoying will become a huge problem in a 100+ hour (not counting the expected multiple playthroughs) game.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/03/21 08:02 PM
This was an action surge.

That's a good point but I have to say that I'm less annoyed by the chain after hundreds of hours than I was at the beginning.
I experienced it a bit years ago in DoS2 but that's not the kind of game I'm playing over and over again.

Now that I know the game and all it's cheats, I can handle every situations without being prepared. There's always something more OP to beat the ennemy (the limit is barrelmancy)... The chain annnoy me a lot but I don't really have to think and dispatch my party. I just have to go higher.

Anyway those that looks to "complain" are passionnated about the game. They probably hope more than anyone else that the game is going to be the best. They want to play it for the next 20 years like they did with the old games.

Controls are really something that matter.
Of course there are personnal preferences about a many points but the chain mechanic is not something like that.
Not sure anyone on this 28 pages said that the chain is something they really find good in the game/in DoS.

This mechanic is bad or average but never really good.
Anyone that tried both systems whatever we're talking about console or not KNOW that the chain is far from being what's best to control a party.

Tuco is a bit abrasive but he's right. We're not talking about personnal opinions here. We're talking about the core of a control scheme : control a party easily, as fast as possible and with accuracy.

The chain doesn't meet any of those basic expectations in MP or in SP.
They swapped easy, fast and precise VS characters follow you.

Characters also follow you in the other system (EE edition)
+ You can also control a character with your sticks
+ you have real formations (auto or manual)
+ you can easily select your character(s)
+ you can move them where you want without any mistake
+ the radial menu on console is way more friendly user

Everything is wrong in the chain.
- you have to disband the group each time you want to select 1 character.
- you have to disband/regroup as soon as you want to select 2 characters
- you're doing more clics than in any other systems, even those with a greater party size...
- the radial menu on console is tedious as hell
- you have sooo many miss click/miss drag and drop...

This would be awesome to hear the devs about such active thread. Just answer 2 questions... Should you reconsider the chain mechanic for BG3 or not ? Why do you think this system is better than another ?

End of the thread.

These questions gave me an idea of threads.
Let's try to shake them a bit.
Posted By: DragonSnooz Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/03/21 08:25 PM
Should we propose ideas to reduce mouse clicks & drags?

We could have:
An input to group all & ungroup all [F]
An input to portrait/character click a group together [alt + click] the portraits you want to group/ungroup
(This would only group/ungroup who was clicked on while alt was held down, so you can have 2 groups of 2 or 1 group of 3)
(Alt is nice to use because it is currently there to show the worlds tooltips, so that won't create a conflict with grouping/ungrouping)

The chain/unchain animation could play out after the clicks, or pressing the F key.
Posted By: KillerRabbit Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/03/21 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Tuco is a bit abrasive but he's right. We're not talking about personnal opinions here. We're talking about the core of a control scheme : control a party easily, as fast as possible and with accuracy.

Yeah, it's like talking with a Gith you just realize you having a conversation with someone who punches other people for a living and you adjust your expectations smile I enjoy his posts.

Quote
The chain doesn't meet any of those basic expectations in MP or in SP.

Yes, the chain has gotten better with each patch. But it's like good sauce on bad meat, the improvements can only do so much to hide the rot. I now know how to work around the chain but that just means I've given up doing things I would like to do.

Take the gate fight. Having two characters sneak into certain positions on the battlefield isn't worth it. To send one group on the hill and another sneaking in the canyon means "unchain-unchain" "chain-chain" "hide - hide - hide -hide" "select -- move Laezel and Astarian" "unchain Astarian" "move group two to hill" "move Astarian, sneak attack"

It's absurd so I just send everyone to the hill -- cast feather fall and have them jump into battle. Only possible with metagame knowledge and it doesn't allow me to use the class features of a thief.
Posted By: Topgoon Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/03/21 01:40 AM
100%, anything that removes clicks and drags will improve the system.

This is something we can objectively observe - the current chain system simply adds too many unnecessary steps and action clutter to a player experience.

Compare a simple maneuver to movement split a party of 4 into 2 between a traditional control and putting each into different locations - (i.e. Pillars of Eternity) to BG3:

POE (4 actions):
- box drag to select 2 party members
- click to move the 2 selected to location A
- box drag to select the remaining 2 party members
- click to move the 2 selected to location B

BG3 - assuming you are controlling character 1 right now (7 actions):
- Click and drag to unchain party member 3
- Click and drag to unchain party member 4
- Click and drag to chain Member 3 and 4 back together
- Select Member 3 or 4
- Click on location A
- Select party member 1 or 2
- Click on location B

On the surface, 3 more action shouldn't be the end of the world, but there are little more subtle issues that also factor in.

For one, clicking and dragging to unchain a party member takes longer, and is more prone to input error (because you if you don't drag it far enough, it just doesn't unchain).

More importantly, the requirement to constantly shift between interacting with the portraits located at the bottom left corner, and then going back to doing something at the center of the screen, adds tons of movement inefficiency to a basic actions. Having to bring your mouse back and forth between 2 locations to issue basic movement is a subtle but incredibly annoying user experience for players. You'll never get away from all of it, but the goal is to reserve these kind of inefficiencies for rare moments, not everyday movement.
Posted By: lethe Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/03/21 06:22 PM
I agree with OP's points but this is valuable feedback regardless of that fact.

And I'm surprised how some people try to turn this into a debate.
He is stating his feedback with proposed alternatives. You are free to make another thread with your differing opinion. Why are you trying to deconstruct theirs to the point it seeming like a personal attack?

People would just stop giving feedback if you force them to defend their position and you would be left with a tiny minority that is satisfied with everything as is. we all know what echo chambers lead to right?

To see an alternative venue of same purpose please check out Owlcat games (company behind pathfinder games) discord and it's feedback channels and how they are structured. They ask you not to initiate dialogue in feedback channel because thats not it's purpose. While there are other channels where you can freely discuss opinions. This forum clearly needs such structuring.

Also could Sarah please look into this forum moderator's behavior?
Posted By: ash elemental Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/03/21 08:05 PM
Seems like with the new "follow jump" mechanics companions sometimes elect to jump instead of climbing down, and this can result in them falling prone and taking damage. One more annoying issue with the current system.
Posted By: DragonMaster69 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/03/21 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by daMichi
A wizard in BG3 can a actually learn cleric spells from scrolls.

I don't like it either.


Yes this is one thing for which I agree needs to be fixed.
Posted By: DragonSnooz Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 08/03/21 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Should we propose ideas to reduce mouse clicks & drags?

We could have:
An input to group all & ungroup all [F]
An input to portrait/character click a group together [alt + click] the portraits you want to group/ungroup
(This would only group/ungroup who was clicked on while alt was held down, so you can have 2 groups of 2 or 1 group of 3)
(Alt is nice to use because it is currently there to show the worlds tooltips, so that won't create a conflict with grouping/ungrouping)

The chain/unchain animation could play out after the clicks, or pressing the F key.

To supplement my thoughts here. I've always viewed the chain system as something that had visual appeal but was not practical. It did make D:OS 2 stand out, but the lack of practicality does slow down the game here and there.

When I said, "The chain/unchain animation could play out after the clicks," I was implying that I like the visual appeal of chain/unchain. After playing through RPGs over the decades quick and satisfying animations are always something I enjoy seeing in an RPG.

I think it this is something that can make Baldur's Gate 3 more enjoyable from start to finish. The player doesn't need to click and drag to control the chaining and unchaining. Having practical ways to group/ungroup the party, and the chain animations make group/ungrouping cool and stylish, will feel fresh and polished.

For reference of how I derived this proposal, think of Persona 5's combat UI it's very practical and stylish. I love it and I'm sure others who played Persona 5 love that combat UI too. I believe similar design principles can be applied to managing the party in Baldur's Gate 3.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Need Better Party Control - 10/03/21 07:18 PM
Hi Gassy,

You should probably copy/paste in this megathread.
Many of us already expressed the same point of view.

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=679414&page=1

There are many interresting discussions with good and well thoughts arguments on this board especially when it comes to talk about the game's mechanics wink
(even if the tone is sometimes a bit hard... People here aren't downvoted if their threads aren't full of roses)
Posted By: Darkhain Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/03/21 08:07 PM
Yeah i really don't like this system at all.
While it's almost a non issue in multiplayer, in solo game, it's just infernal.

Let us be able to group/ungroup all members with 1 hotkey, and therefor be able to select 1 char out of the group without all the pain of the current system.
Posted By: Gassygunslinger Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/03/21 08:47 PM
I have been playing early access, having a lot of fun, but one of the most consistent and frustrating fundamental aspects of the game is trying to control the party. I love the transition to a more tactical turn-based system, but trying to position your party for an ambush is like trying to herd lobotomized cats. Breaking each character off from the group is tedious, and switching between characters is clunky. I don't know if I'm imagining it, but I feel like I have to hold the left mouse button down for an extra split second in order to select a different character... So I'm constantly moving characters I didn't intend to move because, oops, the game didn't register my click on Shadowheart. I also understand that I can technically turn on tactical turn-based mode for this, but it feels even more clunky. Sorry, I'm not positioning my entire party into position around the blighted village 10 ft at a time...

I know there's a lot of hate on this board for everything this game does differently than BG1 & BG2, but with the transition to more tactical gameplay, having the ability to quickly and easily reposition the party is much, much, more important. Honestly, the thought of having to constantly unlink and relink my party for a full playthrough sounds awful.

I understand that having an Infinity-Engine style character selection may not be feasible at all times, but toggling between something more intuitive and the current system would be ideal. Not to constantly bring up Bioware games, but maybe even have a follow-cam option, a la NWN?
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/03/21 08:58 PM
10 FIRST PAGES STATISTICS.

201 different players answered this thread from P1 to P29 (included)
I think I didn't forget anyone and I think no one is listed twice.
I also include people that just discussed in the thread without giving a strong +1 or -1. Usually those also have issues with the system.


RESULTS

- 147 (73%) of them give a feedback that you can't missunderstood : they don't like this system
- 6 (less than 3%) said that they're pretty ok to deal with the system but they have issues with it
- 1 (less than 1%) seems to like it, but honnestly it looks like a troll ("get good")
- 47 (23%) disccussed issues related to this system or give related feedbacks, suggestions etc...

After re-reading ALL messages, looks like nearly 100% of players think that the system is far from being good.
Improvement are needed even if they won't solve every issues.

I guess that 100% of players would be fine with a classic control scheme but if Larian wants to keep this unpopular chain system, they have to improve it.

- Add formations
- Add a group all / ungroup all button
- Fix the auto jump / auto follow
- Add a hide all button
- Add a "don't move" button
- Fix the pathfinding
- Fix the latency / missclick / missdrag while chaining / unchaining / clicking on portrait

This won't solve any issues related to how select more than 1 character, but it would be good QoL improvement.
This system would still be bad both in solo and multiplayer, both on console and on pc but it would be "less bad".


WHO DON'T LIKE THIS SYSTEM (81)

Tuco
Warlocke
ElComunista
Wormerine
Akari
Baraz
Jebble
Willyto
Claudio_420
KillerRabbit
Doomlord
mithril
joste89
Vynticator
Sestuna
Minsc1122
Pantoufle
Albi
RobinLefebvre
kanisatha
clavis
Jun
vitfast
DistantStranger
Charod
Gray Ghost
Maximuuus
Gothfather
MasterRoo09
Fuz77
theedge771
PumatsHole
ngcwwolf
YelloB
VincentNZ
ImSuperCereal
blazerules
Arrowmaker
Agi
Athann
andreasrylander
ulvgaar
FrankHunter
Suhiira
Kal Spiro
SymposiumX
Peranor
Mogan
Matey
Anfindel
RKLimes
Roarro
KingNothing69
Druid_NPC
Lastman
LoneSky
iMage
Traycor
KingNothing69
Sir Sparhawk
Skjoldur
Bossk_Hogg
JDCrenton
dunehunter
Bluthtonian
Emrikol
BadgerMan
Saryle
Charod
Sharp
Jimmhel
Gaidax
00zim00
nation
Dominemesis
Argonaut
dunehunter
blazerules
Dangerman33
tsundokugames
cgexile
Doomec
VhexLambda
dunehunter
WarBaby2
Redglyph
jinkaroo
mr_planescapist
Sharet
Clawfoot
UnknownEvil
Nagfar
Dogmatis
Firesnakearies
The Ranger
Pah
1varangian
ash elemental
AlanC9
Martyn
brosephhstalin
Bukke
Sigi98
guy
AceVentura
Ianthebea
Ramshine
radioactive_lego
Black_Elk
Night_Mask
Marcus Artorius
spectralhunter
TheFoxWhisperer
Scribe
Topgoon
Gustavo R
Etruscan
Lunar Dante
Nibel
DiDiDi
Drath Malorn
Baldurs-Gate-Fan
mrfuji3
etonbears
Turglayfopa
lethe
Gassygunslinger


WHO IS +- OK WITH THE SYSTEM (2)
(meaning they "deal" with it, but don't necessary find it good or don't have any issues with it - pathfinding, QoL,...)
UnderworldHades
Dagless
Judex
Nyloth
Starsmith
DragonSnooz


WHO LIKE THE CHAIN (1)
Skin Overbone

WHO GAVE FEEDBACK OR DISCUSSED RELATED ISSUES WITHOUT GIVING STRONG POSITION (24)
(AI, stealth, group command, suggest something, auto jump, console.....)

Meeshe
Gabriel Farishta
RumRunner151
tangelo1023
Jermz238
someoneinatree
jonn
Anfindel
Raflamir
Gnopi
Stalkingwolf
Newtinmpls
UncleBoss
Praetox
Ellynrie
Riandor
Creslin321
Vortex138
SwordSaintSilver
Buttery_Mess
ulvgaar
Bufotenina
TimVanBeek
Iviene
robertthebard
Rhobar121
Ole Draco
Surface R
Grantig
SpiritChaser
dunehunter
OneManArmy
alice_ashpool
Veilburner
LukasPrism
Seleniumcodec
Zellin
Ankou
Sharp
Dexai
YT-Yangbang
CAGE
ldo58
Dark_Ansem
Boblawblah
grysqrl
jfutral
Posted By: Gassygunslinger Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/03/21 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
It doesn,'t change the fact that it's tedious to select one or two characters.
They are also always moving in unexpected ways.

Clicking a portrait to select a character (that you can see, right there) is also much less intuitive than simply clicking on the character. If I recall correctly, clicking on the character model of another party member will initiate dialogue, correct? It feels completely unintuitive, and realistically you're going to want to switch party members much more often than you would talk to them.

Full disclosure, I've worked on UI projects for apps before, so I can be highly critical, but I also know that clunky UI can ruin an experience.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/03/21 09:03 PM
Originally Posted by Gassygunslinger
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
It doesn,'t change the fact that it's tedious to select one or two characters.
They are also always moving in unexpected ways.

Clicking a portrait to select a character (that you can see, right there) is also much less intuitive than simply clicking on the character. If I recall correctly, clicking on the character model of another party member will initiate dialogue, correct? It feels completely unintuitive, and realistically you're going to want to switch party members much more often than you would talk to them.

Full disclosure, I've worked on UI projects for apps before, so I can be highly critical, but I also know that clunky UI can ruin an experience.

you're right.
that's another issue. Not sure we already talked about this.
Posted By: Pandemonica Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/03/21 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
10 FIRST PAGES STATISTICS.

108 different players answered this thread from P1 to P10 (included)
I think I didn't forget anyone. I also include people that just discussed in the thread without giving a strong +1 or -1.

Interresting.
Maybe I'll do it for the other pages... Or not.

- 81 (75%) of them give a feedback that you can't missunderstood : they don't like this system
- 2 (less than 2%) said that they're pretty ok to deal with the system but they have issues with it
- 1 (less than 1%) seems to like it, but honnestly it looks like a troll ("get good")
- 24 (22%) disccussed issues related to this system or give related feedbacks, give suggestions etc...

For what its worth, I agree that the chain mechanics is clunky as hell and should be refined, so should the entire grouping mechanics be simplified. But as for party size, I disagree. Who knows, maybe they will change it. I wouldn't hold my breath though with Larian's history.
Posted By: Drath Malorn Re: Need Better Party Control - 10/03/21 11:02 PM
A new feedback data point, a new voice saying that the party controls are dreadful. Shocking !

Gassygunslinger, I would have suggested you to go add a "+1, really bad system, frustrating" in the mega-thread for this topic. I doubt that the existence of that thread will will change anything, but hey. I was thinking, if Larian runs a sentiment analysis algorithm on some given threads, players adding posts with easily interpretable keywords could help Larian see that most players dislike the current control scheme. But Maximuus has not only already directed you to the mega-thread, he has also produced manually this kind of analysis I was just thinking of. So 75% are clearly not happy, and if we assume that people who discussed issues and made suggestions would rather see changes, 97% of voices in that thread are not quite satisfied with the current controls.

Will that mean anything ? I can't exactly say that I very hopeful.

First, it's just the opinion of a vocal minority, and thus can easily be dismissed. (Of course, the opinion of a vocal, self-selected minority can be non-representative of the view of the majority ... just like it can. It's the way statistics work.)

Second, players have been complaining about this since week 1. It has now been 5 months of Early Access, and the party controls are still horrible. Granted, Patch 3 introduced a much need feature (companions now follow on jump). But when you're coming from astronomically far behind, and have a long list of problems, even completely solving one still leaves you astronomically far behind.

Larian's communication on this topic has been essentially non-existent. I'm really curious of what the feeling and state of mind is at Larian Studios. Maybe they really like their system the way it is. Maybe they know it's "a problem", but who cares ? Apparently DOS2 had the same control scheme, sold well, got good reviews. BG3 will probably sell even better. Even if the text of most reviews points to the same issue, in the end all that matter is the final score. If Steam/Metacritic say it's a critical success, and sales say it's a commercial success, then it's a success. Then controls are not a problem. And if there's no problem, there's no need for a solution. Anyway, pure speculation. I doubt we'll hear Larian communicate on this before release.


Originally Posted by Gassygunslinger
Breaking each character off from the group is tedious, and switching between characters is clunky. I don't know if I'm imagining it, but I feel like I have to hold the left mouse button down for an extra split second in order to select a different character... So I'm constantly moving characters I didn't intend to move because, oops, the game didn't register my click on Shadowheart.

You are not imagining it. The issue of clicks not being always registered properly, or the sensitivity being too low, has been there since the start, and reported several times. I'm not going to start a search on this right now, but if it never had a dedicated thread, maybe I'll open one. Or someone will. Whatever.
Posted By: Drath Malorn Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 10/03/21 11:03 PM
Great job Maximuuus. I've always thought this mega-thread could be described as "yeah, almost everyone agrees that party controls are dreadful". Now we know that more quantitatively.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/03/21 09:20 AM
THREAD STATISTICS

201 different players answered this thread from P1 to P29 (included)
I think I didn't forget anyone and I think no one is listed twice.
I also include people that just discussed in the thread without giving a strong +1 or -1. Usually those also have issues with the system.


RESULTS

- 147 (73%) of them gave a feedback that you can't missunderstood : they don't like this system
- 6 (less than 3%) said that they're pretty ok to deal with the system but they have issues with it
- 1 (less than 1%) seems to like it.
- 47 (23%) disccussed issues related to this system or give related feedbacks, suggestions, specific issues etc... but didn't clearly wrote "I like it" or "I don't like it".

CONCLUSIONS

After re-reading ALL messages, looks like nearly 100% of players think that the system is far from being good.
Improvement are needed even if they won't solve every issues.

I guess that 100% of players would be fine with a classic control scheme but if Larian wants to keep this unpopular chain system, they should improve it.
A few suggestions from this thread :

- Add formations
- Add a group all / ungroup all button
- Fix the auto jump / auto follow
- Add a hide all button
- Add a "don't move" button
- Fix the pathfinding
- Fix the latency / missclick / missdrag while chaining / unchaining / clicking on portrait

This won't solve all issues - the biggest one is probably that you CAN'T select more than 1 character at the same time - but it would be good QoL improvement.
This system would still be bad both in solo and multiplayer, both on console and on pc - your characters would still move like chickens everywhere - select more than 1 / less than 4 companions would still gonna be tedious - you'll still have more click to do in comparison with a classic systems - but it would be "less bad".

Edit : the list has been updated in the previous message.
Edit 2 : I didn't saw any PROS for the chain from players who tried both systems in SP/MP or on Console/PC. That's why I assume in the conclusion that the chain is not better whatever the situation.
Posted By: andreasrylander Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/03/21 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
THREAD STATISTICS

201 different players answered this thread from P1 to P29 (included)
I think I didn't forget anyone and I think no one is listed twice.
I also include people that just discussed in the thread without giving a strong +1 or -1. Usually those also have issues with the system.


RESULTS

- 147 (73%) of them gave a feedback that you can't missunderstood : they don't like this system
- 6 (less than 3%) said that they're pretty ok to deal with the system but they have issues with it
- 1 (less than 1%) seems to like it.
- 47 (23%) disccussed issues related to this system or give related feedbacks, suggestions, specific issues etc... but didn't clearly wrote "I like it" or "I don't like it".

CONCLUSIONS

After re-reading ALL messages, looks like nearly 100% of players think that the system is far from being good.
Improvement are needed even if they won't solve every issues.

I guess that 100% of players would be fine with a classic control scheme but if Larian wants to keep this unpopular chain system, they should improve it.
A few suggestions from this thread :

- Add formations
- Add a group all / ungroup all button
- Fix the auto jump / auto follow
- Add a hide all button
- Add a "don't move" button
- Fix the pathfinding
- Fix the latency / missclick / missdrag while chaining / unchaining / clicking on portrait

This won't solve all issues - the biggest one is probably that you CAN'T select more than 1 character at the same time - but it would be good QoL improvement.
This system would still be bad both in solo and multiplayer, both on console and on pc - your characters would still move like chickens everywhere - select more than 1 / less than 4 companions would still gonna be tedious - you'll still have more click to do in comparison with a classic systems - but it would be "less bad".

Edit : the list has been updated in the previous message.
Edit 2 : I didn't saw any PROS for the chain from players who tried both systems in SP/MP or on Console/PC. That's why I assume in the conclusion that the chain is not better whatever the situation.


Those are BRILLIANT suggestions! =)
Posted By: crashdaddy Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/03/21 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
THREAD STATISTICS

201 different players answered this thread from P1 to P29 (included)
I think I didn't forget anyone and I think no one is listed twice.
I also include people that just discussed in the thread without giving a strong +1 or -1. Usually those also have issues with the system.


RESULTS

- 147 (73%) of them gave a feedback that you can't missunderstood : they don't like this system
- 6 (less than 3%) said that they're pretty ok to deal with the system but they have issues with it
- 1 (less than 1%) seems to like it.
- 47 (23%) disccussed issues related to this system or give related feedbacks, suggestions, specific issues etc... but didn't clearly wrote "I like it" or "I don't like it".

CONCLUSIONS

After re-reading ALL messages, looks like nearly 100% of players think that the system is far from being good.
Improvement are needed even if they won't solve every issues.

I guess that 100% of players would be fine with a classic control scheme but if Larian wants to keep this unpopular chain system, they should improve it.
A few suggestions from this thread :

- Add formations
- Add a group all / ungroup all button
- Fix the auto jump / auto follow
- Add a hide all button
- Add a "don't move" button
- Fix the pathfinding
- Fix the latency / missclick / missdrag while chaining / unchaining / clicking on portrait

This won't solve all issues - the biggest one is probably that you CAN'T select more than 1 character at the same time - but it would be good QoL improvement.
This system would still be bad both in solo and multiplayer, both on console and on pc - your characters would still move like chickens everywhere - select more than 1 / less than 4 companions would still gonna be tedious - you'll still have more click to do in comparison with a classic systems - but it would be "less bad".

Edit : the list has been updated in the previous message.
Edit 2 : I didn't saw any PROS for the chain from players who tried both systems in SP/MP or on Console/PC. That's why I assume in the conclusion that the chain is not better whatever the situation.


Absolutely +1.

Examples of the current system: in the tiefling camp if you unlock the door with the woman with the bad legs in stealth and try to read the book on the barrel by the door your companion will run in and the cutscene will trigger. Usually it's the one without speech proficiency too.

In the blighted village if you sneak in the side way and hide behind the wall to ambush the goblins, one party member will usually sneak out in the open. Usually the one with no proficiency in stealth.

Party members on a ledge sometimes don't jump down automatically, but when you change members to jump down the others will actually jump UP to join you! You end up having to manually unchain everyone or they all die of falling damage.
Posted By: JoB Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/03/21 09:42 PM
The chain system works fine as far as I can tell.

My only issue is that my click and drag doesn't always register. Like it's a sensitivity issue.
Posted By: Peranor Re: Need Better Party Control - 11/03/21 10:18 PM
Originally Posted by Drath Malorn
Apparently DOS2 had the same control scheme, sold well, got good reviews. BG3 will probably sell even better. Even if the text of most reviews points to the same issue, in the end all that matter is the final score. If Steam/Metacritic say it's a critical success, and sales say it's a commercial success, then it's a success. Then controls are not a problem. And if there's no problem, there's no need for a solution. Anyway, pure speculation....


Seems like this is what Larian are clinging to. "DOS2 sold well so people must love the movement mechanics"
Yeah... no Larian, DOS2 sold well in spite of it's movement mechanics.
Posted By: Tuco Re: Need Better Party Control - 21/03/21 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
THREAD STATISTICS

201 different players answered this thread from P1 to P29 (included)
I think I didn't forget anyone and I think no one is listed twice.
I also include people that just discussed in the thread without giving a strong +1 or -1. Usually those also have issues with the system.


RESULTS

- 147 (73%) of them gave a feedback that you can't missunderstood : they don't like this system
- 6 (less than 3%) said that they're pretty ok to deal with the system but they have issues with it
- 1 (less than 1%) seems to like it.
- 47 (23%) disccussed issues related to this system or give related feedbacks, suggestions, specific issues etc... but didn't clearly wrote "I like it" or "I don't like it".

CONCLUSIONS

After re-reading ALL messages, looks like nearly 100% of players think that the system is far from being good.
Improvement are needed even if they won't solve every issues.

I guess that 100% of players would be fine with a classic control scheme but if Larian wants to keep this unpopular chain system, they should improve it.
A few suggestions from this thread :

- Add formations
- Add a group all / ungroup all button
- Fix the auto jump / auto follow
- Add a hide all button
- Add a "don't move" button
- Fix the pathfinding
- Fix the latency / missclick / missdrag while chaining / unchaining / clicking on portrait

This won't solve all issues - the biggest one is probably that you CAN'T select more than 1 character at the same time - but it would be good QoL improvement.
This system would still be bad both in solo and multiplayer, both on console and on pc - your characters would still move like chickens everywhere - select more than 1 / less than 4 companions would still gonna be tedious - you'll still have more click to do in comparison with a classic systems - but it would be "less bad".

Edit : the list has been updated in the previous message.
Edit 2 : I didn't saw any PROS for the chain from players who tried both systems in SP/MP or on Console/PC. That's why I assume in the conclusion that the chain is not better whatever the situation.
This was an excellent summary.
We more or less knew what the general stance on the topic was, but it's good to see it put in raw numbers.

Thanks for the (probably pointless) effort you put into it.
Posted By: Drath Malorn Re: Need Better Party Control - 21/03/21 06:53 PM
Oh wow. I had seen the page 1--10 analysis but I had missed the full-thread update. Thanks Tuco for upping the thread, but mostly thanks to Maximuuus for the analysis. This post is a gold nugget.

As I wrote previously, I had the feeling (probably like most people who saw this thread) that "yeah, most people agree that the controls are bad". Now it's no longer a feeling. The overwhelming majority of players who expressed their view here think it's bad.

And I'm also fully in agreement with the mentality of the suggestions. Sadly, it might well be that not being able to select more than 1 character at a time will not go away. In view of this, all we can hope for is that the rest of the party controls are made as little bad as possible.

I'll just add two things :
- Add a keyboard shortcut for the Group All / Ungroup All button.
- Add a keyboard shortcut for Ungroup This Character (from its current group). And one for Add Character To Group with character X. It's a pain that I cannot simply select Character 4 and start going somewhere with Character 4 (alone). If I could press 4 (to select) followed by U (to ungroup) and start going somewhere, it would still be one more input than necessary, but a lot more manageable.
Posted By: fylimar Re: Need Better Party Control - 10/04/21 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
THREAD STATISTICS

201 different players answered this thread from P1 to P29 (included)
I think I didn't forget anyone and I think no one is listed twice.
I also include people that just discussed in the thread without giving a strong +1 or -1. Usually those also have issues with the system.


RESULTS

- 147 (73%) of them gave a feedback that you can't missunderstood : they don't like this system
- 6 (less than 3%) said that they're pretty ok to deal with the system but they have issues with it
- 1 (less than 1%) seems to like it.
- 47 (23%) disccussed issues related to this system or give related feedbacks, suggestions, specific issues etc... but didn't clearly wrote "I like it" or "I don't like it".

CONCLUSIONS

After re-reading ALL messages, looks like nearly 100% of players think that the system is far from being good.
Improvement are needed even if they won't solve every issues.

I guess that 100% of players would be fine with a classic control scheme but if Larian wants to keep this unpopular chain system, they should improve it.
A few suggestions from this thread :

- Add formations
- Add a group all / ungroup all button
- Fix the auto jump / auto follow
- Add a hide all button
- Add a "don't move" button
- Fix the pathfinding
- Fix the latency / missclick / missdrag while chaining / unchaining / clicking on portrait

This won't solve all issues - the biggest one is probably that you CAN'T select more than 1 character at the same time - but it would be good QoL improvement.
This system would still be bad both in solo and multiplayer, both on console and on pc - your characters would still move like chickens everywhere - select more than 1 / less than 4 companions would still gonna be tedious - you'll still have more click to do in comparison with a classic systems - but it would be "less bad".

Edit : the list has been updated in the previous message.
Edit 2 : I didn't saw any PROS for the chain from players who tried both systems in SP/MP or on Console/PC. That's why I assume in the conclusion that the chain is not better whatever the situation.

There is not much to add. I especially would love to see a group all/ungroup all button. Right now, it is often clunky.
Posted By: andreasrylander Re: Need Better Party Control - 10/04/21 04:49 PM
Seems all has been said already. I will just chime in with an "I concur" =)
Posted By: ShimmerUK Re: Need Better Party Control - 14/04/21 10:22 AM
I don't like the chain systems.
I like the more established method formations and single selecting party members
Posted By: EvilVik Re: Need Better Party Control - 15/04/21 06:29 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
10 FIRST PAGES STATISTICS.

- Add formations
- Add a group all / ungroup all button
- Fix the auto jump / auto follow
- Add a hide all button
- Add a "don't move" button
- Fix the pathfinding
- Fix the latency / missclick / missdrag while chaining / unchaining / clicking on portrait

This won't solve any issues related to how select more than 1 character, but it would be good QoL improvement.
This system would still be bad both in solo and multiplayer, both on console and on pc but it would be "less bad".

This one is probably my biggest frustration:
- Fix the latency / missclick / missdrag while chaining / unchaining / clicking on portrait

But yea, agree with all of the above!
Posted By: SerraSerra Re: Need Better Party Control - 15/04/21 09:19 AM
+1 for 'current system is bad' , good suggestions, nice work doing this little summary forum stats maximuus. I guess you do realize we have a bit of a distorted sample issue due to self-reporting here - but great work anyway !
Posted By: Tuco Re: Need Better Party Control - 18/04/21 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by andreasrylander
Seems all has been said already. I will just chime in with an "I concur" =)
Yeah, pretty much.
I won't speak for everyone else but I'll take my chance to stress that I never stopped caring about this issue.
The only reason I'm not posting anymore in the thread is that there are only so many combinations of words you can use to reiterate the same concept and I'm starting to feel pretty damn close to have exhausted most of the viable ones.
Posted By: Dr.serkan85 Re: Need Better Party Control - 22/04/21 09:21 AM
+1 op current dos system is just pain
Posted By: gaymer Re: Need Better Party Control - 22/04/21 12:15 PM
The chaining system post-combat is the worst. They cannot seem to separate pathing logic for AI vs. the party.
Posted By: spectralhunter Re: Need Better Party Control - 23/04/21 01:17 AM
Let me say again, the chain system/party mechanic is so bad, I have absolutely no desire to play and test BG3. It’s that annoying.

The only reason I run BG3 is to mess around with the character creator after I’ve added mods. Other than that I haven’t bothered to play because the controls are so irritating.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Need Better Party Control - 24/04/21 02:11 AM
For controls, I'd like:

1. Auto-Jump. I picked where I want to go and I only jump if necessary to get there. If I can make the jump, I click the spot, and I just jump there. No need to click a Jump button.

2. Disengage all by itself. It needs to be an action so it matters to use it. Also, backstab should be removed unless 2 allies are flanking.

3. Party Mode Button. If you click it, everyone ia grouped. If I click a character or portrait, group is unchained. If I picked Stealth in Party Mode, all stealth together. Want to only have 2 or 3 grouped, hold Shift and click portraits.

4. Party Leader is in left most slot. This is the character who initiates dialogues, every time.

5. Switch Characters during Dialogue. So I can have Rogue Deceive, Fighter Intimidate, etc.

6. Spell menu, well organized and all on one spell menu popup window, not willy nilly on hot bar.

7. Same with special attacks like Menacing Strike and Sneak Attack, etc. Should be a menu for Actions and one for Bonuses.

8. Remove Dual vs. Single. If I want to use my off hand I'll click on the button. Dual causes characters to waste their offhand attack too often.

9. Inventory management overhaul. Too clunky. Needs multi-select feature at bare minimum and bags should have more value. Bags should have their own slot and determine how many items you can actually hold.
Posted By: JiruoVX Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/05/21 02:59 PM
+1 Agree with multi selection as and removal of the linked system at least as an option.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/05/21 10:19 AM
Points for the short list there regarding controls! total agreement

In addition to those 9 I'd like to add...

10. The Camera: The orbital cam should rotate with a Right-Click by default (along the Z axis as well!) and I'd like the camera to orient on the party leader by default or on a selected character when their portrait or avatar is double-left clicked. The camera should not be able to roam outside a character's field of view, but have a radius determined by the selected character's line of sight. That would not only help with the general party controls, but also for maintaining a role for scouts within the game, as well as for heightened suspense, realism, and interest when exploring the various environments.
Posted By: Ivan_Ho Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 24/05/21 01:52 PM
I concur with the points the OP raised. (Better late than never:P)

The auto-follow can result in situations in the current iterration of the game where half your party is jumping around in tight places like crazy.

The links between party members are tedious to handle. Whenever you want to set up an ambush, or just move a single character around, you have to break the party apart one by one, and then reattach everyone afterwards.
The only reason this system was tolerable to me in DOS1, and DOS2 was that I've played lone wolf playthroughs.
This is probably part of the reason we won't get a larger party, as managing a party of six would quickly become bothersome.

Don't know how time consuming, or at all feasable it would be to change the party control system to something akin to the ones seen in BG, or any of it's spiritual successors, but I think most fans of the original title would prefer the classic control scheme.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/06/21 09:26 PM
Just crossed in another section of the forum:
Originally Posted by PFlux
Howdy folks. Done a little looking around, but I haven't tested a game in several years. So like myself, my search-fu has become old and weak.

1) Can you have the whole team go stealth mode all at once together, instead of scrolling through each individual person?

One of us! One of us!
Just kidding. If I were to actually report here every time someone complains about these shitty controls on the internet I would have hardly time to do anything else.
Posted By: Kryldost Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/06/21 04:06 PM
Don't you guys ever move your team Seperately? If you want to charge at the group in one go, keep them together, but if you want to be a tactician... Seperate them. The controls are excruciatingly simple, I have close to one of the worse PC to play this, I lag like.. a HELL lot sometimes unless I watch the game from tactical view. But I still am able to plan my moves Perfectly. What's wrong isn't the mechanics, but rather your sense of adaptation. Dig deeper in the games that came out since the dawn of gaming, and you'll find that this, is Amazingly easy to control as you want.

I do see the complaints that you have to seperate them, and... wtf!? Are you kidding me? You want them to do stuff according to what You want, but having them moving seperatly Outside of a fight isn't good enough for you? Sneak around, don't just stand there. Stay out of sight. When your tank is in combat, the game won't proceed as long as it's your character's turn to move. Gives you Plenty of time to deal a massive ammount of damage. Hell I cleared fights in 1-2 turns simply from keeping the right characters out of a fight by having them hidden outside of the enemies sight. Play smart, don't be a berserker. Max level doesnt allow you to be as cocky as you hope to be.
Posted By: EvilVik Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/06/21 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by Kryldost
Don't you guys ever move your team Seperately? If you want to charge at the group in one go, keep them together, but if you want to be a tactician... Seperate them. The controls are excruciatingly simple, I have close to one of the worse PC to play this, I lag like.. a HELL lot sometimes unless I watch the game from tactical view. But I still am able to plan my moves Perfectly. What's wrong isn't the mechanics, but rather your sense of adaptation. Dig deeper in the games that came out since the dawn of gaming, and you'll find that this, is Amazingly easy to control as you want.

I do see the complaints that you have to seperate them, and... wtf!? Are you kidding me? You want them to do stuff according to what You want, but having them moving seperatly Outside of a fight isn't good enough for you? Sneak around, don't just stand there. Stay out of sight. When your tank is in combat, the game won't proceed as long as it's your character's turn to move. Gives you Plenty of time to deal a massive ammount of damage. Hell I cleared fights in 1-2 turns simply from keeping the right characters out of a fight by having them hidden outside of the enemies sight. Play smart, don't be a berserker. Max level doesnt allow you to be as cocky as you hope to be.

Either you're trolling or you have completely missed the point of the topic...
Posted By: Kryldost Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/06/21 04:27 PM
I think you're all way too pushy. Not trolling. You're all acting like you are part of the developement team, adding your grain of salt to everything you dislike about the mechanics. I totally agree, the point of the topic is good, what I don't agree with is how much whining is going on. Y'all forgetting something though, you're asking for a big rewritting of the codes for your whims. Rewritting that risks breaking the entire games, which a lot more people will not be happy with. Let them finish the game first, once it's released in its entierty, well damn! The suggestion Is submited, Good! I'd love this too! Now just isn't the time to Want these in. I want the game first, the Full game. I want improvements later.
Posted By: Kryldost Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/06/21 04:49 PM
Agreed! Feedback is good and required. Just be thoughtful of what you ask and be patient as to when you'll get it. This is a very intricate request that will take a lot of time for completion. As for the "complaining", if the hat fits, wear it. If not, so be it! This has 30 pages, its not All complaints.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/06/21 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by <Redacted>
<Redacted>
Or we simply feedback something they dont want to change prehaps?
I mean ... to ask for feedback, and to get feedback, dont mean that they need to change everythign acording to that feedback ... does it?
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/06/21 05:48 PM
Larian's control scheme is one of the WORST that exist in video games. It has 0 advantages over other systems. Changing this would improve their games a lot.

If players keep repeating this games after games...there's a reason... It's not like if they weren't any consensus about this mechanics (threads on forums, polls on reddit, khalid sludge polls, ...)
Posted By: Kryldost Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 06/06/21 05:48 PM
I was rude with my inital comment, I'm impatient too! Sorry. I want to learn more of the game's lore, I'm a lore freak :V
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/06/21 11:18 AM
I'll try to be charitable and presume that it wasn't deliberate trolling and you simply didn't understand what we are talking about across the entire thread.

Especially since your original objection doesn't make a lick of sense. Our unhappiness with the current system stems PRECISELY from the fact that "moving your team separately" feels like convoluted garbage with the current control scheme, compared with pretty much any other notable alternative in the genre.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/06/21 10:52 AM
For the series "I feel partially vindicated", even Harbs Narbs, someone that so far spent a lot of time and effort defending Larian no matter what and occasionally even antagonizing the user base for being "overly critical", lists the CHAIN/UNCHAIN system as FIRST among the things he currently doesn't like in game.



While I had no expectation that anyone at Larian would ever pay attention to my little stubborn crusade (and if anything after months of hammering the point I can see a scenario where they roll their eyes and changes side of the road when they see me coming), maybe they'll have to actually reconsider things when even their most faithful devotes start to point out that some things just don't work that well.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/06/21 12:16 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
For the series "I feel partially vindicated", even Harbs Narbs, someone that so far spent a lot of time and effort defending Larian no matter what and occasionally even antagonizing the user base for being "overly critical", lists the CHAIN/UNCHAIN system as FIRST among the things he currently doesn't like in game.


While I had no expectation that anyone at Larian would ever pay attention to my little stubborn crusade (and if anything after months of hammering the point I can see a scenario where they roll their eyes and changes side of the road when they see me coming), maybe they'll have to actually reconsider things when even their most faithful devotes start to point out that some things just don't work that well.

Yeah. Not sure if I said it, but I can deal with the chain system, but ultimately its inefficient. When I feel I am about to interact with that system its a tiny little damper on my fun knowing I will have to muck about with it.

Larian is entering a bigger world, where the quirky things they do are going to be held up to greater scrutiny. Its a test of their ability to adapt and let go of the things that don't serve them as well as they could.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/06/21 10:57 PM
What I don't get is why Larian so stubbornly refuse to address this issue. Is it some kind of misguided sense of pride?
I sincerely believe that it wouldn't require that much effort from Larian to improve the movement Mechanic in to something that at least resemble modern gaming standards when it comes to control.

And I know Solasta is a bad word here. But i just tried out BG3 after playing through Solasta. And damn... BG3's crappy party controls is even more noticeable now.
I simply can not believe that the developers think that the current system is fine. I simply can not. Maybe they are working on ways to improve it but just doesn't have anything to show yet. Or they will save it for the finished version of the game.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 19/06/21 05:01 AM
Originally Posted by Peranor
What I don't get is why Larian so stubbornly refuse to address this issue. Is it some kind of misguided sense of pride?
I sincerely believe that it wouldn't require that much effort from Larian to improve the movement Mechanic in to something that at least resemble modern gaming standards when it comes to control.

And I know Solasta is a bad word here. But i just tried out BG3 after playing through Solasta. And damn... BG3's crappy party controls is even more noticeable now.
I simply can not believe that the developers think that the current system is fine. I simply can not. Maybe they are working on ways to improve it but just doesn't have anything to show yet. Or they will save it for the finished version of the game.
In their more recent interview they claimed that the upcoming update will focus on addressing quality of life and systems according to the feedback of the community more than on adding new content.

To be perfectly honest I don't want to raise anyone's expectations, since have very little hope to see this request for revamped controls addressed, as I have yet to see the slightest sign that Larian even acknowledges this as a problem that exists.
Still, you never know. Waiting few more days (weeks) at this point hardly makes a difference.


Also, yes to what you said. It's funny, because I don't even like the Solasta's control scheme that much (both PoE 2 or the two Pathfinder would be better ideal models as far as I'm concerned), but man if I wouldn't take that over what we got here in a heartbeat.
Posted By: Kryldost Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 07/07/21 02:43 AM
I want to be clear about this, I did not read 30 pages of content wether this was.... Remotely solved or not.

I think the main issue behind changing the whole party movement system is the 3d aspect. Your characters can be "party movement" eligible whenever they within a certain distance if they are above bellow beside or "close enough". I been playing again a little before patch 5 and I tried to find posible solutions to the time it took to seperate them.

(I also want to specify I am playing this on a 10 years old PC that is WAY behind on everything this game is running on. I am playing the game at half the speed it should be running on. I am DEFINITELY aware of the time it takes to seperate a party member from another because it takes me up to 10 seconds to seperate them properly if I try to go too fast.)

I think having them One by One as the first step of the movement equation would be nice.

Getting to select in your party whoever could move together without needing to "chain mechanic" them together be another good movement option.

Lastly, having an hotkey for every closeby group member would also give an edge to this kind of mechanic.

I 100% feel the pain of seperating and joining members due to my graphical lag, It's a Major pain in the ass to deal with this lenght of seperation. I would welcome a seperate mechanic in the future.
Posted By: virion Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/07/21 08:59 AM
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Terminator2020 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/07/21 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by Kryldost
I want to be clear about this, I did not read 30 pages of content wether this was.... Remotely solved or not.

I think the main issue behind changing the whole party movement system is the 3d aspect. Your characters can be "party movement" eligible whenever they within a certain distance if they are above bellow beside or "close enough". I been playing again a little before patch 5 and I tried to find posible solutions to the time it took to seperate them.

(I also want to specify I am playing this on a 10 years old PC that is WAY behind on everything this game is running on. I am playing the game at half the speed it should be running on. I am DEFINITELY aware of the time it takes to seperate a party member from another because it takes me up to 10 seconds to seperate them properly if I try to go too fast.)

I think having them One by One as the first step of the movement equation would be nice.

Getting to select in your party whoever could move together without needing to "chain mechanic" them together be another good movement option.

Lastly, having an hotkey for every closeby group member would also give an edge to this kind of mechanic.

I 100% feel the pain of seperating and joining members due to my graphical lag, It's a Major pain in the ass to deal with this lenght of seperation. I would welcome a seperate mechanic in the future.
Yes well it does not need to be super new and best hardware for example if this game is released year 2022 or 2023 the best hardware out there when released is not must have for this game.

I ran on MAX FULL HD (my display have max FULL HD) with this computer and it is not new computer I did pay it in year 2018.
The desktop.
CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 2600X Processor in TURBO mode 4.2 Ghz
Socket-AM4, 6-Cores, 12-Threads

Motherboard: MSI X470 GAMING PLUS, Socket-AM4 Motherboard, ATX, X470, DDR4, 3xPCIe-x16,
CFX, 2x M.2, USB 3.1, Mystic Light RGB

GPU: Nvidia 1070 Titanium 8GB DDR5

RAM: 16 GB to be more exact:
G.Skill Ripjaws V DDR4 16GB KIT 3200Mhz
2x8GB, PC25600/3200Mhz, 16GVBK, CL 16

SSD: Samsung 860 EVO 500 GB, 2,5

HDD:Separately have none SSD hardrives one of them new:
Seagate Barracuda 2TB 3.5'' HDD

Power: Seasonic Focus+ 650W 80+ GOLD PSU ATX 12V, 80 Plus Gold, Modular

OS: Windows 10

Anyway despite me not having performance issues with maximum graphics FULL HD I agree with Tuco that need better party control. Tuco is wise in suggestions of improvement. I have alredy bought this game and I will play this at least with my brother but there is room for improvement.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 19/07/21 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Larian's control scheme is one of the WORST that exist in video games. It has 0 advantages over other systems. Changing this would improve their games a lot.

If players keep repeating this games after games...there's a reason... It's not like if they weren't any consensus about this mechanics (threads on forums, polls on reddit, khalid sludge polls, ...)


If I remember correctly, Larian at some point flippantly stated that it's only the "vocal minority" that complain about the movement mechanics. But it's just their way of trying to sweep the problem under the rug of course. It's what companies do when they feel offended or "attacked" by certian criticism that they can't understand or doesn't agree with.

Lots and lots of complaints and annoyance has been directed towards the worthless movement mechanits, both here and on other forums and amongst Youtubers. And even the people that doesnt go to the forums or post videos about it tend to agree that, yeah the movement mechanics is in need of improvements, when you talk to them about it.
So even if it's true that it's only a "vocal minority" of the testers that actually take their time to provide negative feedback about the movement mechanics, I dare say that a majorty of the testers still would love to see the movement mechanics improved. Ok, maybe not just improved. But rather reworked or completely redesigned.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 19/07/21 06:57 PM
A large portion of the user base of any reasonably successful game simply doesn't have the experience, the familiarity and sometime even the "gaming literacy" to clearly identify what's wrong with what they are playing. What mechanics exactly work, what don't, why and to what extent.
For the most part they just feel on an intuitive level that something may be wrong.

Still, most of of them, especially when familiar with other similar titles in the genre, even if not spontaneously vocal about it, when pointed by a third party why a certain thing doesn't work, why it should be improved, etc, will be able to decide if they can agree or not.
In other words they may not know what they want, but they can recognize what they like/dislike when presented to them.

The overwhelming majority of people I crossed in the past year may not even conceive the idea to voice complaints specifically aimed at the game's current control system, but when put in front of the discussion and forced to think about the pros and cons, the dislike for the Larian solution has always been almost unanimous.
In the rare cases where I've spotted the occasional exception it was always people who sounded suspiciously invested in defending whatever Larian was doing "Just because", rather than genuine fondness for the system.
You know, the same guys who will tell you "It seems fine enough to me" over and over, just to correct their aim in "Yeah, thank god is gone, it was very bad" IF the developers decide to change it later.

Psychological profiling for the fringe cases aside, the stats don't really leave that much room for doubts about the level of appreciation the current system inspires: it's genuine trash tier.

What surprises me the most, though, are the devs themselves: can we actually believe that no one at Larian in the last 8-9 years of development for DOS 1, DOS 2 and DOS BG 3 ever had this wild, novel epiphany "What if we released a game where controls aren't actively detrimental to the player's enjoyment, for once?".
Posted By: Califax Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/07/21 10:14 AM
I'd prefer another movement system, but if the current one stays I can see two simple changes to make it more bareable.

1. Add a Chain/Unchain hotkey.
2. Don't have party members flock to you when you select a character or end a combat. Instead, have them stay still until you move.

These two changes would at least lessen what I see as the two most glaring issues with the current system - that it's slow and cumbersome to unchain each character separately, and that everyone runs around like headless chickens and reposition themselves when you're not ready.
Posted By: daMichi Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/07/21 10:16 AM
Amen.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/07/21 11:34 AM
Originally Posted by Califax
I'd prefer another movement system, but if the current one stays I can see two simple changes to make it more bareable.

1. Add a Chain/Unchain hotkey.
2. Don't have party members flock to you when you select a character or end a combat. Instead, have them stay still until you move.

These two changes would at least lessen what I see as the two most glaring issues with the current system - that it's slow and cumbersome to unchain each character separately, and that everyone runs around like headless chickens and reposition themselves when you're not ready.
Agree on both count. Nothing really new, but this is a good summary of how to salvage the mess we have now to a decent extent and with limited effort.

Of course, I would STILL prefer to see the system replaced with a competent one, but you know, baby steps... and all that jazz.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/07/21 04:00 PM
And don't run into traps you spotted but run around them.

Also, in Patch 5, if they can't make jumps, they shouldn't move and should notify you that they can't make the jump. Several times now some have just vanished because they couldn't jump or something. One time, Astarion ran around another way and triggered a fight.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/07/21 05:39 PM
OK. And now, to add to this, they need to stop making it so that when I'm in a dialogue my party members keep moving. Wyll ran through a poison cloud while talking to the Hag's corpse and died during one fight, and during the Harpy cutscene my Drow fighter wandered right up to the closest harpy and was in range of death while being totally charmed by the dumb thing. If a dialogue or combat has been initiated, the other characters need to be drawn into it as well. We can't be having all this nonsense of letting all the other characters roam around and do whatever they want, steal everything under the sun, etc. while another player is in conversation with an NPC and so forth. If you want to steal with the help of another player, that's allowing Advantage on a Pickpocket check because one is distracting while another is pickpocketing, or whatever. Same with Stealth. There needs to be a Help mechanic that allows characters to help one another in their rolls and such without allowing them to just roam about freely like they do, or something. The fact that there is too much freedom creates issues like what I've been encountering lately with my party members roaming into stupid stuff while I'm in a cutscene.

Besides, I REALLY want Larian to make it so that I can switch between characters while in dialogues. For crying out loud, especially in situations where I have 3 or 4 custom characters, I trigger a dialogue with my character who is good at Intimidation, but for some reason the dialogue pulls in the Host of the session instead and thus he isn't able to use Intimidation as well and fails where my other character how has Intimidate and special abilities to even enhance it further, would have likely succeeded. It's very frustrating. If I'm trying to deceive Gimblebock, and I'm forced to bring in my honest cleric instead of my super Deceptive Rogue, that's an issue for me, and it needs to be possible for EVERY dialogue. When I get to Acts 2 and 3 and I have no idea what's coming, I'm not going to think to switch to my Deceptive rogue when I need to lie to someone. I'm likely going to have my typical Main out there who can't lie worth spit. Likewise, if I have my rogue out, and I run into a situation that requires more persuasion, I need my Cleric out there because he's proficient.
Posted By: alice_ashpool Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/07/21 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by Califax
I'd prefer another movement system, but if the current one stays I can see two simple changes to make it more bareable.

1. Add a Chain/Unchain hotkey.
Just a heads up but this exists (as a chain/unchain all) as "Toggle Group Mode" in keybindings.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/07/21 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Just a heads up but this exists (as a chain/unchain all) as "Toggle Group Mode" in keybindings.
Jesus Christ, when did they add this?
Fairly sure it wasn't there the last time I checked.
And why is it unbound by default, anyway? They should have neon signs pointing to its existence.

Just goes to show that actually SPEAKING from time to time could go a long way in solving some issues.

Well, not that this solves everything, but damn if it doesn't make a small, meaningful difference.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/07/21 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Just a heads up but this exists (as a chain/unchain all) as "Toggle Group Mode" in keybindings.
Jesus Christ, when did they add this?
Fairly sure it wasn't there the last time I checked.
And why is it unbound by default, anyway? They should have neon signs pointing to its existence.

Just goes to show that actually SPEAKING from time to time could go a long way in solving some issues.

Well, not that this solves everything, but damn if it doesn't make a small, meaningful difference.

100% AGREE!
Posted By: CJMPinger Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/07/21 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Just a heads up but this exists (as a chain/unchain all) as "Toggle Group Mode" in keybindings.
Jesus Christ, when did they add this?
Fairly sure it wasn't there the last time I checked.
And why is it unbound by default, anyway? They should have neon signs pointing to its existence.

Just goes to show that actually SPEAKING from time to time could go a long way in solving some issues.

Well, not that this solves everything, but damn if it doesn't make a small, meaningful difference.

100% AGREE!

I did not know about this too, just being told this would have saved me a world of headache...
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/07/21 04:42 AM
Originally Posted by alice_ashpool
Originally Posted by Califax
I'd prefer another movement system, but if the current one stays I can see two simple changes to make it more bareable.

1. Add a Chain/Unchain hotkey.
Just a heads up but this exists (as a chain/unchain all) as "Toggle Group Mode" in keybindings.

Wait, they finally did something about this?!

I'm not sure I'd have realized what "Toggle Group Mode" meant even if I saw it listed. Is this new to patch 5? If so it should have been like the first they mentioned in their new news announcements, cause then I would have downloaded the patch immediately instead of waiting until right now.

This needs a default bind like CTRL+A or something obvious.

They should really highlight this in the Tutorial, like as soon as the Imp first imp combat concludes in the prologue. If they have a simple default bind to Group All, then the game should automatically Ungroup All once combat concludes, to prevent the characters from ambling around or falling all over each other precisely at the point when you'd really want everyone to just freeze and wait until they are issued a command to follow the leader again. It would be hugely helpful, and reduce my main annoyance with this game since like day one.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/07/21 09:12 AM
I immediately bounded it to BACKSPACE, since the game has no default binding for that key and it's easy and quick to reach.

P.S. Don't get your hopes TOO high. It isn't really a "group all" button. It chains/unchains all characters in a singe button press, but you still get direct control only of one character at any given time no matter what (with the others in autofollow) and if you want, say, put everyone in and out of stealth, you'll still have to rotate between individual selections and do it manually for each character.

Still, a godsend as far as QoL improvements go. Can't believe they think this function shouldn't even get a default key and be shouted from the rooftops.
Posted By: alice_ashpool Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/07/21 10:31 AM
Originally Posted by Tuco
P.S. Don't get your hopes TOO high. It isn't really a "group all" button. It chains/unchains all characters in a singe button press, but you still get direct control only of one character at any given time no matter what (with the others in autofollow) and if you want, say, put everyone in and out of stealth, you'll still have to rotate between individual selections and do it manually for each character.
I really wish that instead of just unbind all it shifted to a standard selection mode so you could move between the chain system and a standard selection system at the press of a button. There are "some" times I appreciate the chain, but in those pre-combat situation it is a nightmare. Fortunately F1-F4 allows relatively quick cycling between characters but it is still slower and more annoying than it should be.

The thing that really gets me is that in combination with the above movement issues there is no pause - there is no way to give simultaneous orders while paused..., but i guess this is "no RTwP" - but it makes planning before fights a lot of trouble with serious frustration.

Combine this with the strange initiative system - getting supprised by my own ambush is always a classic "Baldur's Gate 3 EA moment" - and the weakest thing in the whole game at the moment imo is pre-battle tactics due to poor systems.
Posted By: DragonSnooz Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/07/21 05:25 PM
This is huge though. I've bound it to ALT+F.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/07/21 07:31 PM
Sneaky Larian. I hope that this is just one of many more improvements to come.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/07/21 11:23 PM
Yeah its a little bizarre. Outside of combat or dialog, I don't really understand why the other characters in the party even need to occupy a physical space at all? Like if I can't control them directly as a unit, I'd rather they just behaved like ghosts, not actually touching the ground or interacting with anything in the environment until they are actually selected.

Visually they could still be ambling around for the sense of realism, but in a practical sense, couldn't the whole party just be considered to be moving within the space defined by the single selected PC? And then the rest of the gang just sort of materialize or dematerialize when the situation calls for it? You know, like combat starts, and the selected PC says something like "Rally to me!" and then the 3 other PCs just warp into position behind the currently selected PC?

I don't get the point of watching the 3 others characters tripping over each other in my peripheral vision during the simple exploration or non combat movement stuff.

If I can't move the whole group as a unit, or define their individual paths with waypoints or issue commands in sequence via some kind of pause feature, then there's no real reason to try and set up ambushes or attempt tactical positioning prior to combat. It might as well be a single PC doing everything at those times, and the rest of the party just kind of shows up behind the main selected PC when a combat or a dialog begins.

I don't know, I just hate everything about the non combat tethering dynamic. It reminds me of playing Contra and watching Player 2 just die in the water constantly while Player 1 tries to jump up to the next platform charging ahead lol. Like does anyone actually think 3 legged relay races are fun for more than 3 minutes? Cause I certainly don't. And that's what the chain feels like to me. Wrap it up in tinfoil and launch it at the sun! There has to be a better way.

The way its set up now, its like the game is trying to create the impression of controlling a full party (I guess because that's what BG was?) when in fact we are only ever in control of a single PC. That's just not Baldur's Gate as far as I'm concerned. It might still be D&D, and perhaps more like the Pen and Paper experience, but its not at all what I was expecting from this title given its lineage.

Not trying to be caustic here, I'd really rather the game succeeded, but its currently failing my basic shortlist test for the things that are essential to a proper successor to the Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale IE series.

D&D ruleset
Forgotten Realms game setting

Full Party control (eg godmode)
A large party, with a large pool of characters to choose from (say 6 out of 18 or thereabouts)

Plenty of games have come out satisfying one or the other condition, but the reason why Neverwinter Nights was not a proper successor is because it failed on the full party control aspect, instead it went with AI henchmen. The reason Dragon Age was not a proper successor is because it failed to provide the D&D and the Forgotten Realms setting, and it also went with AI henchmen. To capture what made Baldur's Gate so cool, and itself a proper successor to the old Gold Box games, you really need to meet all those requirements I think. Otherwise the game just isn't really what it's purporting to be.

The main thrust of Baldur's Gate gameplay was controlling the whole group of characters, and not just the one dude up front. BG3 is necessarily limited by the choice to go fully turn based, but that's no different than the old gold box set up, so not a deal breaker. In those games "The Party" (at least during exploration) was abstracted and simplified into just a single player control scheme. I would much prefer they do the same here. I would like to roam around the map as a single PC, with my party basically hidden behind me, but they still show up whenever any combats or dialogs occur. Right now you can't really do this. Soloing or returning to a pocket camp to dismiss or recruit followers is NOT what I'm talking about. I mean the entire current party is always along for the ride, but they only "appear" during non combat exploration cosmetically. If the player clicks the current hourglass button to enter Turn Based Mode 6 sec intervals, then the whole party should appear around the currently selected PC (in the real, not just as cosmetic apparitions) so I can then issue separate movement commands for positioning.

There's no need for a chain at all. It's only purpose is to allow for exploration/movement convenience as a single character, when it might as well just make all the other characters disappear from view. That way player only has to focus on moving one thing around - the Party.

During exploration the currently selected character is the stand in for the entire crew. In Co Op, you could do the same, but where instead of the whole Party, now player 1 and player 2 each take control Half the Party. Characters not currently selected, just going hidden until a combat or a dialog occurs, or until the player actively summons them up by using some button. If Player 2 "chains" themselves to player 1, then they go ghost and their half of the team just disappears into Player 1's temporary control, at least until a combat or dialog or whatever. I mean wouldn't that just make more sense?

Or to put it yet another way, when I click "Toggle Group All" to chain the party together, what should happen is that all the other characters then disappear or become merely cosmetic ghosts. They don't run into traps or climb ladders, they don't initiate dialogs or launch encounters. They just disappear behind the selected PC to whom they have been chained, so that the Leader in effect becomes The Party.

You know with just a single marque/circlet representing the group. I can immediately anticipate the response, "but I want to position different characters in different ways so that I can set up ambushes!" Or "what if I want sneak into the house with just one guy, while everyone else stays outside?" or "won't this make it harder to meta all the combats in the game, by trying to pre-place my whole party based on what I know from my last save?" and really this approach wouldn't have to mess with any of that. It's just an exploration convenience. Entering Turn Based mode, you could still do everything as normal. The only thing it would really change is how the exploration and simple non combat movement aspect is handled.

Just so it's catchy, I will call this proposed scheme...

Marley's Chains:

The idea is that once a PC is "chained" they become a ghost for all intents and purposes. They're still there (enfolded into the PC to whom they are chained), and they could even still be visible for the cinematic appeal, but they don't actually interact with the game's environment. In exploration mode, outside of combat/conversation, being chained just means going ghost.

"Chain All" puts the entire party into such a ghost mode, and they are considered to be moving inside the selected PC's space. In their wake, as it were. While chained in such a fashion the entire party just is the MC. If that makes sense?
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/07/21 07:57 AM
For me one of the most spectacular failures of the current system is how it get beaten even at its own intended goal by other more traditional solutions.

I mean, the idea should be something like "Here, with our chain mechanic you'll always be in control only of one character, so having multiple ones under your command will be smooth and easy and we'll spare you the bother to control them as well".
Except, you then compare it with a game like Pathfinder Kingmaker (or even better its imminent sequel Wrath of the Righteous) arguably the closest thing to a modern Baldur's Gate 2 on the market, and you realize in how many ways they made the most typical "obsolete" party control actually more practical even in terms of "moving the party as a whole".

- Do you need to move around as a group? Just click and move at will, and with a quick click-and-drag you'll also decide how to rotate your whole formation on the ground (as it was in the old titles, by the way).
- Do you need to do a skill check in the environment or open a lock or disable a trap? One single click with your full party selected and the game will send forward the character with the overall best skill score for the task. Painless, quick, intuitive.
- Do you need to do group stealth? Just click the appropriate button/keybind and put in or out of stealth the entire party (or your sub-selection of it).

I was playing WotR Beta 3 just tonight and while it has its own issues (the pathfinding in turn-based mode can be bugged as hell on certain rooms/doors) half of the time I kept thinking at how much more intuitive/enjoyable it was to control compared to BG3 (which I played just a couple of hours before).
Posted By: GM4Him Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/07/21 09:18 AM
- Do you need to do a skill check in the environment or open a lock or disable a trap? One single click with your full party selected and the game will send forward the character with the overall best skill score for the task. Painless, quick, intuitive.
- Do you need to do group stealth? Just click the appropriate button/keybind and put in or out of stealth the entire party (or your sub-selection of it).

These two things especially are killing me. I REALLY want them to make it so that in dialogues too, if my rogue is better than my fighter at Deception, he/she makes the Deception roll. They are a TEAM. It isn't the MC Show. Well, at least, it shouldn't be, but right now it is. I don't feel like it's a real party. It's more like a band where one person gets all the spotlight. So, it's more like MC and His/Her Merry Band when it should be a party where everyone's strengths are brought to the table.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/07/21 10:46 PM
Yeah I mean that's a for sure! But I'm just looking at how they might salvage the exploration and general "moving around" experience without totally ash-canning their entire scheme and starting from scratch, since I honestly don't think that is something they would be willing to do at this point.

This thread is currently titled "BG3 Party Movement Mechanic" but we don't actually have a "party movement mechanic" at all, what we have is a single character movement mechanic and that's it.

If chained, then sure, up to 3 other characters can be made to follow the selected character to whom they are chained, but their actual movements while chained are currently completely out of our control. They don't move as a party. Instead their individual pathing is left up to the whims of the AI, which frequently fails by allowing those chained characters to run into hazardous terrain, pointlessly climb up and down stuff, or initiate combats or dialogs when we don't want them to.

This is why I think they should just transform the current Chains into "Marley's Chains."

When chained, the other characters just behave as if they were ghosts. They don't interact with the environment or get drawn into combats or dialogs. Only the currently selected character should be able to do that.

That way we don't need competent AI pathing, which is the primary issue right now. If nobody ever ran into the flames or bled out on the floor or accidentally triggered dialogs or encounters, while we were trying to maneuver someone else, then we wouldn't all be in here grumbling about it. But the fact that the game has been out for more than a year, and the pathing still blows, means that this is probably not an issue they're going to be able to fix. So I think they should just create a mode where the entire party is represented by the single selected character and everyone else only "appears" cosmetically, as ghosts, until the party is expanded out in full due to a dialog, or a combat, or because the player manually presses the Chain/Unchain button to switch them from Ghost mode to Normal mode on the fly.

In a Ghost Chain scheme all those pathing problems would go away, at least while the party is moving as a unit. Unless the player wants them all out at once, in which case they can just click the Unchain toggle to achieve that. Then all they really need is a prompt to select which PC does the talking when dialog or a specific character action is required. It would just feel a lot more streamlined that way I think. More like the old Gold Box games than Baldur's Gate 1/2, but at least it wouldn't be nearly as frustrating as what we have right now.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 24/07/21 06:03 AM
I have to say, I'm not particularly a fan of the "JRPG" approach where the rest of the party becomes basically an abstract incorporeal during exploration.
It would feel more like a cop-out because they can't do group control/formation/positioning decently than a proper solution.

Also, a clarification about this point:

Quote
without totally ash-canning their entire scheme and starting from scratch
I don't think this would be necessary at all.
When I say that the current system is "unsalvageable" I don't literally mean that they should recode the entire thing. What I mean is that you can't keep the salient traits of this system and have something genuinely good.
On the other hand it's also true that you could get a good system simply MODIFYING the current one. Playing with the recently discovered "chain/unchain all" is making it even more evident than before.

1- Allow ACTUAL selection of multiple units. Like, if I SHIFT+Click a certain number of characters they should be the selected separately from the rest.
2- the selected portion of your party should all execute generic, non unit-specific commands. You know, "move", "stop", "hide/unhide", etc.
3- Allow formations and especially allow the players to select/edit which formations they want to use. Personally in almost any CRPG I played I've always been very comfortable with the standard tight "2X3" made famous as default with BG1 and 2, where you have two frontliners, two characters in the middle and two in the rearguard (here's a very short clip to show what I mean
) but obviously to each one its own.

These three modifications alone would go a long way to completely redefine how the current controls feel. After that it would just be a matter of making everything feel as "snappy", clean and responsive as possible.

EDIT- Damn, didn't plan to make the video "embed", let alone this big. The forum apparently does it on its own with every youtube link.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 24/07/21 06:38 AM
Yeah I mean that would clearly be preferable. I kinda enjoyed the theater scope there actually haha, might as well go big!

The ghost thought was just an expedient, definitely not as a best case. While I'd rather move formations and select via dragging marques and such like out of the rts command and control tradition, at least the incorporeal thing during non combat movement would avoid most of the mini headaches I encounter along the way.

But in actual combat, that doesn't solve any problems really.

Just a stop gap idea for something they might be able to pull off and turn over with a relative quickness, whereas I expect it would take a bit longer for them to do the kind of overhaul I'd actually like to see. Maybe they'll get there, it does seem to be moving incrementally somewhere, but all the selection and movement controls feel really oddball to me. It just pulls me out of the experience, for a game that I'm otherwise kinda digging and really hope settles in for the long haul out of EA.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 26/07/21 01:19 PM
It's especially aggravating when after combat 3 characters immediately rush through fire/acid/twisting vines to get to the selected character. The uncontrollable party movement that happens all the time is infuriating.

Having to drag a character "away" from the group to move a single character is also really annoying. And then you have to manually regroup them later which feels really clunky and glitchy on top. All of this is so unnecessary! 99% of the time you just need a "select all" button or a quick marquee selection when you want to move the entire party. And click on a portrait or character to select and move a single character.

You could also accomplish what Larian are trying to do with a simple "follow" switch added on top of a classic party control scheme. If you want to move a single character and have the rest follow you automatically, flick the switch and select a character. There's no reason to ruin the whole control scheme for such a feature that creates much more trouble than it's worth.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 26/07/21 02:04 PM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Having to drag a character "away" from the group to move a single character is also really annoying. And then you have to manually regroup them later which feels really clunky and glitchy on top. All of this is so unnecessary!
In last patch Larian actualy implemented button (toggle party its named in option i think?) that will instantly splits or joins all party members, that are close enough ...
Its pretty usefull, even tho it still have some bugs. laugh

For example its joining them in random order, it ignores how you have them sorted ... but that is minor problem. smile
Worse is the fact, that you can easily forget that summons, and temporary companions tend to run toward your character no matter the dangers ... this is how i lost Sazza. laugh
Posted By: RutgerF Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 27/07/21 12:32 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
For example its joining them in random order, it ignores how you have them sorted ... but that is minor problem. smile
I tested it somewhat, and it seems this behaviour is intended, and not a bug:

  • When you split the group and then join it back, the currently selected character goes to position 1 (becomes the party leader);
  • When you split the group the second time after that and join it again, this time having the previous party leader selected, the game seems to be remembering the initial party order (that you had before the first split) and restores it.


It appears they put some effort into its implementation, since it behaves consistently. However, as with most LTC-related changes that Larian makes, it feels like another layer of epicycles added to the Ptolemaic system: an awkward and unwieldy crutch to help a bird walk, even though it was supposed to fly instead.

I feel practically sorry for Larian devs, it looks like they are going to get rid of LTC eventually, but because of the enormous internal friction they have to do it the hard way.

P.S. Just in case, +1 to the thread's original idea and purpose.
Posted By: Gustavo R Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 28/07/21 02:01 PM
I'd noticed some strange things in the chain system.

• There is a menu with the option to group/ungroup when you right-click the portraits, but the game usually doesn't respond to the click. You have to try 4-8 times.

• When I ungroup a character, 90% of the time it's because I'm going to use it, but the game doesn't select that character right away. For this reason, usually, after ungrouping a character and clicking to move it, I realized that the wrong character is going to the position I'd sent.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 30/07/21 11:36 AM
Originally Posted by Gustavo R
• There is a menu with the option to group/ungroup when you right-click the pictures, but the game usually doesn't respond to the click. You have to try 4-8 times.
.


Yeah, I too feel that clicking the character portraits, be it right or left click, from time to time feels very unresponsive. Not always, but every now and then. Which of course only adds even more frustration over the already subpar control mechanics.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 30/07/21 12:27 PM
Originally Posted by Peranor
Originally Posted by Gustavo R
• There is a menu with the option to group/ungroup when you right-click the pictures, but the game usually doesn't respond to the click. You have to try 4-8 times.
.


Yeah, I too feel that clicking the character portraits, be it right or left click, from time to time feels very unresponsive. Not always, but every now and then. Which of course only adds even more frustration over the already subpar control mechanics.

For now managing with hotkeys is recommended.

f1-f4 for your characters to select them from Left to Right.

Then you have the Unassigned Grouping Key that you use to split them/unsplit them. Need to go into Keybinds to assign it first, I use Tilde "`"

We still need a hotkey for group stealth.
Posted By: Gustavo R Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 30/07/21 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Then you have the Unassigned Grouping Key that you use to split them/unsplit them. Need to go into Keybinds to assign it first, I use Tilde "`"


I didn't know that. Thank you.
Posted By: Pupito Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/08/21 09:35 AM
I rather liked the way Solasta handled the party grouping, default being the whole party follows you and then you can click an individual portrait to only move that one character, and a small icon above the portraits to go back to moving the whole group again. Of course, I also didn't find much need to not move the entire party in Solasta either, while in BG3 I've run into a lot of situations where I would like to move each character to a different spot for a surprise attack or some such. This whole chaining/unchaining system was terrible in DOS2 but I pushed through it and just never really unlinked my party members at all because, much like Solasta, I didn't really come across any situations where I felt like I needed to have them all spread out so much. BG3 has me remembering exactly how much I hate this grouping system, and focusing on it more than ever because I actually do feel like I need to have my characters spread out in different spots at combat start in these.

Combined with the whole group not going into stealth together even when they're all chained together so I have to individually select each one to make them go into stealth, it just makes the entire group movement a mess in my opinion.
Posted By: yetkopempo Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/08/21 01:40 PM
I agree fully with the above. The party common action or following behavior should be two separate things. I think Pillars of Eternity implmented this more logically.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/08/21 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by yetkopempo
I agree fully with the above. The party common action or following behavior should be two separate things. I think Pillars of Eternity implmented this more logically.

Well, yes, that's precisely the "traditional RTS control scheme" we've all been advocating for in the entire thread.

It's weird that Larian refuses so stubbornly to embrace it, because it's not really an unproven novelty, but rather the standard the entire genre has made use of since the dawn of this specific formula. Bg1, BG2, ToEE, PoE 1 and 2, Pathfinder Kingmaker, WotR... Basically any notable title in this subgenre borrows from there and refines the formula to some degree, while Larian is trying to reinvent the wheel... And making it square in the process.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/08/21 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
No doubt

Seriously, though where is @dotmats when we need him?

like this BG3 music video practically writes itself...

You know, on account of already being written, in brilliant and exacting detail.
Will we never make it to white castle? Like for real?
Come on Larian



they hella took the high ground though right? Like pretty much the whole time lol


Can I just do this, every time the thread gets another dozen pages? Yes!
lol
Posted By: colinl8 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/08/21 06:12 PM
Nothing to add, just a +1 to all the above in the hope it improves chances of notice by Larian.
Posted By: JeneralBen Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/08/21 07:52 AM
I just read this post played the game, and noticed something.

If I drag the party portraits apart it seems easier to micromanage the members.

Would this work for tricky situations like you have described?
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/08/21 07:58 AM
No? That’s precisely the system we have been criticizing from the beginning.

Also, if anything the recently introduced “Group toggle” key bind is a better workaround than “dragging portraits apart”.
Posted By: JeneralBen Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/08/21 11:05 AM
Your initial post was complaining about how party members would move on their own. Toggling off group stops that, no?

I also noticed that there is an option for tactical view. That is making my encounters much easier to deal with. I wonder if they help with the "camera height" issues as well.
Posted By: JeneralBen Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/08/21 11:16 AM
Also, isn't the "ghost chain" idea just exactly what final fantasy rpgs have been doing for ages?
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/08/21 12:37 PM
Originally Posted by JeneralBen
Your initial post was complaining about how party members would move on their own. Toggling off group stops that, no?

I also noticed that there is an option for tactical view. That is making my encounters much easier to deal with. I wonder if they help with the "camera height" issues as well.
Every post I made in this thread "was complaining" about the fact that separating characters with the chain system is a shitty, convoluted mechanic that makes the action way more cumbersome that it should be. It involves a certain number of unnecessary intermediate steps (like dragging portraits and whatnot) to achieve what other systems do intuitively in fractions of seconds.
The point was never that I could find no option whatsoever to move characters individually.

I could also put the game in forced turn-based mode at any given time and move each one separately, but that would still be a far cry from being a comfortable control scheme and a gold standard in the genre.


Originally Posted by JeneralBen
Also, isn't the "ghost chain" idea just exactly what final fantasy rpgs have been doing for ages?
And that's an argument in its favor... How?
Aside for the fact that no, that's actually a fairly different system, last thing I'd want from a party based CRPG is to "control like Final Fantasy". Classic or modern makes little difference in that sense.
Posted By: JeneralBen Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/08/21 08:35 PM
Ok, personal advice: if you had just ignored me, I would have went away. I obviously didn't have a lot of insight to offer you. I was obviously being foolish by only skimming your 30 pages of arguments and I was very close to deleting my original comment when I came back and saw your response.


Back to this: I'm reading your first post. Please go back and read your own first post. At that point, an observer would think that you didn't know about breaking the chain. Other people have responded to your post as if they also thought that you didn't know about breaking the chain.

I'm here as a new CRPG player, and if you think that unchaining is uncomfortable, I've got 20 other things in CRPGs that I think are even more uncomfortable. In a way, I'm very much on your side, however I can't tell why you're drawing the line here instead of on the other 20 things. I would bet it's because you're used to playing other CRPGs and are used to the other uncomfortable things.


Communication Problems:
"that's an argument in its favor... How?" Please try to avoid over-using that sentence structure. It is counter productive. "How is that an argument in its favor?" is the way to say the same thing without sounding childish and overly combative. I understand you are in Italy and so your exposure to the English language may be limited. To a native English speaker this phrasing is reserved for combative and immature conversations. The internet is full of combative and immature conversations, but it has been getting better very quickly, which is why your wording sounds like a holdover from 2000.

You seem to take issue with the word "complaining" but I use this word because you are using phrasing such as "xxx... how?" and "the last thing I want." This kind of language reduces your communication to a lower level, one that is easily labelled "complaining" instead of being thought of as a reasonable argument. This problem even showed up in your first post, where the moderators changed your subject line.

It is possible that you are only trying to use "flowery" language to liven up your words. I personally have a history of doing that and I ended up having to stop because of similar problems.

Back on topic: Here is how it is an argument in its favor or at least worth pointing out (I thought this would be obvious): You and others have been talking as though "ghost chain" is some sort of unique concept that has just been invented in this discussion. If you think about ghost chain like it is some made up idea, you are ignoring a lot of information about the concept that we can gather from its history and its current use in other games.

Game designers consider the big picture when they make decisions, and if you are trying to influence the game designers you would be helped if you address the things that they consider.

Because ghost chain has been in use in many other games, it has a history that we can observe and we know that it has been broadly adopted already in other genres.

Because Final Fantasy and others have used the ghost chain, it is implied that it is a solution that gamers have accepted for decades. It also shows that other developers have decided that this is an acceptable compromise between realism and convenience. Given the broad adoption of the ghost chain, it seems as though nobody has decided that it is "bad" enough to avoid.

When you argue against "ghost chain", this is part of what you are arguing against. This is helpful knowledge for you if you want to succeed in influencing people's opinions. You need to address the opposing point of view.

"the last thing I want" is not helpful if you want to influence people's opinions. It's just a personal opinion when you talk like that. You shift the conversation to your personal preferences, and it is super easy to discount your ideas when you do that.

Everybody has a personal opinion. Real facts are what get things changed. Nobody is here to be your emotional caretaker and it makes you sound like you're throwing a tantrum when you talk about your personal wants.

Instead, you can say "I don't think this is acceptable because of x reasons" and then there is room for constructive discussion and finding a solution.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/08/21 09:05 PM
Look, I don't want to come off as overly-intolerant, but try to realize that you literally jumped in this thread after we went back and forth on the issue for months (without much discordance, actually, since the overwhelming majority of the users here seems to agree that the current system ranges from terribad to goddamn awful) and your big reveal was "I DON'T KNOW IF YOU GUYS NOTICED, BUT YOU CAN DO [summary description of the very thing we don't like]. THAT SHOULD SOLVE THE ISSUE, SHOULDN'T IT?"

And the answer is: NO, it does not. That IS the issue.

Here is a practical example (already posted in this very same thread and quoted more times I'd be willing to admit across the rest of the forum and in other places) of why the system is awful:

Quote
Things that with an "RTS-like" control scheme would literally take a couple of clicks here takes an inane amount of unnecessary intermediate steps.

Lets' take a scenario as an example:

PLAYER 1 is at the gates of a hostile camp and decides he wants to set up an ambush. As a starting maneuver he decides to put his party in stealth, move each one of his party members in a specific corner of the area, then he opens the dances, wipes the enemies (let's sya the brigands) from the face of the planet and goes back to move his entire party as one.

In a traditional system: He will select the whole party, click/press the "stealth" command, then with literally just two clicks for each, he will select and move every character exactly where he wants it. When the fight will be done, a quick click and drag on the whole party or a press the "select all" shortcut and and he will go on his way.

With the Larian system: Click stealth. Oh right, only the selected character goes in stealth, so repeat the process for each one of the four men (imagine if it was a party of six, sigh). Time to tell each one where to... Wait a second, why is everyone moving every time the selected character does? Oh right, time to UNCHAIN each one of them, either by dragging the portrait or right clicking on it and selecting the equivalent function. Now he can tell each one where to go, have the exact same fight and be on his wa- Wait a second, why is everyone standing aroud like an idiot? Oh right, before that he needs to re-select each one of them individually, relink them to the party (which by the way works only if they are already in the proximity, so maybe he needs to move everyone more closely before) and then finally be able to go on his way again.

And please, don't make the similar word count fool you, what we have on the latter is not "from 30% to 50% longer", the description of these actions may be somewhat comparable in length but this second process takes almost four times the amount of work of the first one in practical terms.

Can you see why this system is garbage no matter from what angle you may look at it?

As you will be easily able to verify even jumping from post to post discontinuously no one here ignored the possibility to separate portraits by dragging them. We take issue precisely with how stupid and convolute that system is and how quicker and more intuitive a more traditional "click and drag to select" would be.
We even talked about possible ways to KEEP some form of auto-follow as an optional alternative for those few who actually may like it (may the gods have mercy on their souls) without making it the main thing. Let alone mandatory as it is now.

And honestly trying to hold as an argument that "Your party in auto-follow works fine in JRPGs" seems almost mockery. I expect from a traditional party-based CRPG a very different level of control than what I expect from a Final Fantasy.
Especially because in the former positioning is an important factor and in the latter is NOT.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/08/21 09:13 PM
I'm not sure what you're talking about Jeneralben but I don't know any other game in which you have to manage units/companions that use this "ghost' (as you call it) chain system but DoS and DoS2.

In other games you select the character(s) or unit(s) you want to move and move them exactly where you want. This is how it works in all cRPG and in strategy games in which you can sometimes have tons of units.

In BG3 you only select 1 character and move him + you always have to choose who's following or not, which lead to many issues (more clicks, less intuitive, harder to properly control your characters, uncontrolled companions movement,...)
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/08/21 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I'm not sure what you're talking about Jeneralben but I don't know any other game in which you have to manage units/companions that use this "ghost' (as you call it) chain system but DoS and DoS2..
In most JRPGs, especially of the more traditional type, you usually control just your main character and the other companions are basically "virtualized" in the process. They either disappear from screen entirely (overlapping with your characters like Naruto shadow clones) until a dialogue or battle starts, or they simply trail behind the main character as some sort of incorporeal ghosts.

I'm guessing that's what he's referring to, but as I said it's both a very different system from what BG3 uses and on top of that definitely NOT something you'd want as a control scheme in a CRPG where positioning of each character can be relevant at any given moment.

I guess you could SOMEWHAT trace some analogy between the two systems (mostly on both being fairly terrible) but in terms of design requirements each of them needs to answer to... it's apples and oranges, really.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/08/21 09:45 PM
Well, I only played a few JRPG (Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy 7+, Ni No Kuni, Valkyria Chronicles, Fire Emblem,...) but as far as I remember you can't manage your companions movements and you don't ever have to outside combats phase.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/08/21 09:48 PM
I think at one point I suggested that an actual ghost chain of the jrpg sort (where the followers were actually ghosted) would be rather less frustrating than what we have now, but I think that was the weakest possible solution proposed, among many.

Flower language isn't really tuco's thing I don't think lol. He's more like our resident caustic, in this thread at any rate hehe.

Party movement remains the main impediment to my overall enjoyment of this game. It's hardly improved in the 5 patches we've seen thus far, though the chain break toggle hotkey was somewhat helpful, moving characters around still feels like a chore. I want it to feel effortless and intuitive and zen like the older rts schemes, whereas here its like totally anxiety inducing.

Right now tactical view feels pretty worthless to me. 100% straight down view for the camera makes the game feel really claustrophobic with a touch of vertigo for me. That might just be a personal issue, but that was my immediate impression of tactical view. Even panning way out on the zoom, I just don't like that camera angle at all. It makes my eyes uncomfortable, and fucks with my inner ear or something, so its hard to get all tactical there. I want vertical elevation for the cam, or just a regular orbital cam, so I can maintain in an ISO or driving angle view, but without hobbling myself overmuch just trying to see what's going on.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 23/08/21 09:54 PM
Yeah, the "tactical view" you can access by pressing "O" (by default) feels fairly pointless. Too close to the ground to be of any actual use, too perpendicular to it give you a clear view of what's going on.
I'm not sure if the few times I tried to activate it I've EVER found myself preferring it to the conventional camera under any metric (which is saying something, given than even the default camera isn't exactly flawless).
Posted By: timebean Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 24/08/21 12:25 AM
Originally Posted by JeneralBen
Communication Problems:
"that's an argument in its favor... How?" Please try to avoid over-using that sentence structure. It is counter productive. "How is that an argument in its favor?" is the way to say the same thing without sounding childish and overly combative. I understand you are in Italy and so your exposure to the English language may be limited. To a native English speaker this phrasing is reserved for combative and immature conversations. The internet is full of combative and immature conversations, but it has been getting better very quickly, which is why your wording sounds like a holdover from 2000.

Wow. This is such an embarrassing post. This level of condescension (and language snottery) is a much greater internet sin than a bit of saucy phrasing. Perhaps it was a knee jerk reaction to getting called out for uninformed posting? It happens to the best of us…but I hope you do better next time.
Posted By: JeneralBen Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 30/08/21 09:57 AM
Originally Posted by timebean
Originally Posted by JeneralBen
Communication Problems:
"that's an argument in its favor... How?" Please try to avoid over-using that sentence structure. It is counter productive. "How is that an argument in its favor?" is the way to say the same thing without sounding childish and overly combative. I understand you are in Italy and so your exposure to the English language may be limited. To a native English speaker this phrasing is reserved for combative and immature conversations. The internet is full of combative and immature conversations, but it has been getting better very quickly, which is why your wording sounds like a holdover from 2000.

Wow. This is such an embarrassing post. This level of condescension (and language snottery) is a much greater internet sin than a bit of saucy phrasing. Perhaps it was a knee jerk reaction to getting called out for uninformed posting? It happens to the best of us…but I hope you do better next time.

Actually no, the way Tuco speaks is embarrassing for anyone who is not a non-English speaker. Look at how he keeps using the same tortured phrase over and over. Look at the word "Italy" under his name. He's obviously not a native English speaker, he probably practiced and learned from the internet (poor soul). You guys are doing him a disservice by not recognizing this impediment and trying to help him out.

Because other people, who don't recognize the international nature of this forum, are just going to write him off as an ass.

He's obviously a passionate and reasonable individual who could contribute and be heard better if his wording didn't get in the way.

I'm actually quite proud I explained to him why he sounds like an ass when he's trying to communicate, a lesser poster would have just gotten mad at Tuco for talking like he's in some space alien debate team.

This dumb thread is number 5 when someone shows up to the forums to learn what everyone's talking about, and it's repulsive to read even though I agree with the main gist.

(PS: your avatar is embarrassing. JFC.)
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 30/08/21 10:35 AM
Man, I'm so glad you took the time to explain me how to not sound like an ass and not be repulsive to read, even at cost of leading by (negative) example just to make your point.

Now, please, try to stick to the point of the discussion instead of piling up the "ad hominem". Or just don't let the pride hit you on the way out.
Posted By: vometia Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 30/08/21 10:45 AM
Originally Posted by JeneralBen
I'm actually quite proud I explained to him why he sounds like an ass when he's trying to communicate

Please take some enforced time out to fully appreciate your pride.
Posted By: Wormerine Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 31/08/21 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by JeneralBen
Also, isn't the "ghost chain" idea just exactly what final fantasy rpgs have been doing for ages?
Nope.

The origin of that system, I believe are later (post Baldurs gate) BioWare RPGs like KOTOR of more importantly DragonAge.

What Larian missed that with limited controls also came limited interactions. There was little to no reason to split or switch control in those games. That said, I remember even traps in Dragon Age Origin were a pain, with stupid companion triggering traps you were trying to disarm.

"Separate all" shortcut welt a long way on making the system more manageable as I don't have to struggle with chaining system anymore.

Worryingly Wasteland3 more or less copied Larian"s "single character control, all others follow" system, albeit with better character selection. Plenty of issues have been transferred over, including characters lagging behind, or tripping over traps.
Posted By: Archaven Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 31/08/21 05:02 PM
i hated DOS2 and certainly BG3 chaining system. prior to BG3 demo was released, i recalled it was being discussed on IINM. But still it was still being tagged on again on BG3. this lead me to believe that BG3 was built on top of a working DOS2 game. I prefer the drag and multi-select from the gameplay screen. With shift or ctrl to add/remove selection just like the older baldur's gate title. The chaining system leads to too much annoyance. I believe this was discussed in depth. The question perhaps is, would Larian budge from their old system? Do they have plans in doing so?
Posted By: schpas Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/10/21 12:48 PM
Fully agree. This is one major issue of the game! This system (togeather with other issues) stoped me playing DO:S 2. This is more DO:S than BG cause the
predecessors used the system we all expect.
Posted By: Etruscan Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/10/21 01:19 PM
It's interesting to note that some other posters have commended Larian for 'listening to feedback' and whilst that is the case for some aspects and mechanics, I find it hard to believe that changing Minthara's hairstyle several times is of more import than the almost universally panned party control system. It would be great if they would give some indication of what their plans are with this control system rather than months of silence between patches and a huge announcement about what they have added/changed. It really is piss poor communication, nobody is asking for daily updates but a couple of times a month wouldn't hurt just to keep people interested and discussing.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/10/21 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by Etruscan
It would be great if they would give some indication of what their plans are with this control system rather than months of silence between patches and a huge announcement about what they have added/changed.
Or worse, vague teases about "things that are totally coming in the future and you guys cannot even imagine!".


I mean, they are right, I can't even begin to fucking imagine what they are prioritizing at the moment, given their erratic behavior when it comes to "listening to feedback" or conveniently ignore it.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/10/21 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
I mean, they are right, I can't even begin to fucking imagine what they are prioritizing at the moment, given their erratic behavior when it comes to "listening to feedback" or conveniently ignore it.

lol. As they say, "it's funny because it's true" smile
Posted By: Dulany67 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/10/21 10:46 AM
Chain must go. It's a worse way to handle something that was perfected 20 years ago.

EDIT: Or Larian should explain their reasoning, at least.
Posted By: Ranxerox Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/10/21 02:41 PM
I find the "chain-system" to be the equivalent of trying to herd cats with a wet rope. More importantly it seriously interferes with my enjoyment of what is otherwise an outstanding game. Please drop it for a more conventional form of group control.
Posted By: schpas Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/10/21 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by Dulany67
Chain must go. It's a worse way to handle something that was perfected 20 years ago.

EDIT: Or Larian should explain their reasoning, at least.
torture
Posted By: virion Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/10/21 04:19 PM
Originally Posted by schpas
Originally Posted by Dulany67
Chain must go. It's a worse way to handle something that was perfected 20 years ago.

EDIT: Or Larian should explain their reasoning, at least.
torture

Their reasoning is simple. Deep inside of their hearts they hate us. It's their vengence for crunch time.
Posted By: dukeisaac Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/10/21 04:50 PM
I fully agree, BG3's party control management is the absolute worst. It's bad at pathing, its bad at character placement before encounters and it doesn't allow party formations.

I also agree that, mechanics wise, Larian's communications have been less than ideal, to say the least.
Posted By: Baraz Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/10/21 06:06 PM
+1
It is my number one feedback/request since day 1, or should I say since I finished DOS 1 :P

The ungroup keybind (toggle group/ungroup) does help though !
Posted By: GM4Him Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/10/21 06:21 PM
I also hate that I keep accidentally clicking on one of my party members whenever I'm just trying to move around. Drives me nuts.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/10/21 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I also hate that I keep accidentally clicking on one of my party members whenever I'm just trying to move around. Drives me nuts.
And how do you feel about selecting a character just to cast something and having your entire party re-shuffle their positions for no reason?
Double fun if there is a ladder involved.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/10/21 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I also hate that I keep accidentally clicking on one of my party members whenever I'm just trying to move around. Drives me nuts.
And how do you feel about selecting a character just to cast something and having your entire party re-shuffle their positions for no reason?
Double fun if there is a ladder involved.

Oh so fun.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/10/21 07:31 PM
Same and same again.

I made a thread regarding "Cancel Action"in feedback (that has so far caught no replies, predictably lol) But basically how this game forces a constant intermediate click simply to cancel UI stuff, like anything selected (action/icons) from the UI in order to select something else, such that to do practically anything from the interface requires a clickathon. It's like the funhouse mirror nightmare impression of how I feel regarding the default party movement and selection scheme lol. OK so within the UI I have to click-cancel action constantly, right? click-select/cancel, cancel to select, select then cancel, on and on.... with these intermediate delays on everything, even the most basic UI selection... But then you get to left click selection stuff for movement, within the main environment or the character avatar selection and it's like 'boom done! you're hosed! You clicked once too many, just this time in the wrong spot fool! it's already happening now. Good luck trying to stop or prevent the impending calamity!!!' hehe. The contrast in extremes is just so pronounced.

Now take that click crazy impression to the most basic movement commands for navigating around the map. Not even for the "party" per se, just even the single character. How in order to get from one place to wherever else, you have to tunnel using left click constantly to increment across short distances. Usually just at the end of the line of sight, or risk pathing doom or triggers or convos by charging ahead via ghost cam. Wherever you've set your camera tilt like 3 seconds ago, or wherever the camera has moved since (either through your own input or the game taking over)... the camera is still in constant motion/reorientation, so shooting way ahead with the camera to try and kinda waypoint far out is like wildly precarious (to say nothing about how it dispels the immersion or any sense of POV) and then players are going to be all fanned out in loose formation for this too for this? Just for navigating around?

Like couldn't they at least just give us a basic Line formation for navigation? with the leader walking point and everyone else just tracing in their footsteps? Or the tightest possible square at least? Something, just anything, to make this most mundane of movement requirements more tolerable?

I mean that's not all I want, obviously not even close, but for now it's hella ridiculous where chain movement is concerned, that purely from the navigation exploration standpoint, it would feel so much like tossing horseshoes all time. And entering/exiting combat only compounds all the problems to a wildly inordinate degree. I really think they really need to step back, and revisit the implementation of a true driving type camera and movement control for the exploration appeal and a more RTS style camera for tactical party movement appeal. How to bridge that with what they've already got, I honestly don't know. I feel like they need to just make new systems and give the player some kind of choice in the options called "Party Movement" settings, and just start trying to experiment. Like with anything. Anything else. Just something
Posted By: Wormerine Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 19/10/21 01:25 PM
Honestly, after being introduced to shortcut to "group/ungroup all" I think I can deal with the system. However, it needs to work properly - better then it does not, and better then it ever did in D:OS1&2

1) Followers fail to follow you. The get lost stuck, ladders confuse them (even if laders themselves don't bug the hell out). So often I find myself having to herd everyone on by one, and current system just makes it very tedious to do so.
2) overall unresponsivenent. It seems that I can't switch between characters, or issue new orders while the old one is still happening. Is it some kind of leftover of turn based system? I remember same happening in D:OS2 - you tell someone to buff and need to wait for him/her to finish before you can switch to another character. Order someone to jump and you need for them to finish stomping before you can switch to the second character.
3) action cueing? I think it is similar problem to the previous one, but for example, if character starts climbing the ladder I can't succesfully tell him where to go next after he finishes.
4) some annoying order cancelling. I tell character to move to a position and then hover over enemies to see what my chances to hit are - nah, can't do that, character will stop.

I am sure there is more. And of course, many of those would be fixed by "traditional" system. Being able to tell everyone where to go and what to do, instead of AI having to read my throughs (and failing miserable). Pathfinding is bad, but I heard it is a difficult thing to do, so I will give Larian more time on that one.

I have little hope for Larian to rewrite movement and party control system for something more sensible, but they really need to make, what they have easier to interact with. Shouldn't basics like that be solved during vertical slice? One thing I hear over and over again, when hearing about game making is that basics like movement are one of the first things devs need to figure out - aka. if it's not fun to more around, you can't build on that. I worry that Larian is building a lot on shoddy foundations, and there is no way back without demolishing a lot of their work.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 19/10/21 05:37 PM
Seriously, the UI and this... feature. I can't take it anymore!

Combat ends... everyone rushes straight into my Cloud of Daggers without me issuing any movement commands.

Ungrouping and re-grouping is so awkward. At least have one button to do this for the entire party. The only time I want everyone to follow me like spastic idiots is when I'm just running through familiar territory to go sell loot or something (and can't see the party twitching and running in circles behind me). And even then I would rather just press a "select all" button and move the party normally.

Just.... why?? Other games have none of these issues.
Posted By: Anthraxid Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 19/10/21 08:44 PM
It is indeed torture. Pathing? Sucks.

Something that i noticed happening to me after patch 6. I point to the place my party wanna go , while im looking around the area with my camera to see whats going around. When im going back to my party suddenly there are only 2 or 3 members there , while the rest are stuck somewhere at the beginning of their path.

When leading party member goes into stealth and moves around the rest of the group acts like they had a brain fart or a stroke and they just stay there doing nothing. So here comes the "lets try and drug the portraits away" in order to do what should be way simpler and easier.

Oh here i detected those traps , let me avoid them with my party leader , im sure the rest of the goon squad will avoid them. Right? Well... boom boom boom boom. nope.

quick edit*

oh the times that the non controlled characters are climbing up and down ladders etc going back and forth... torture.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 29/10/21 09:13 PM
It's been said all throughout this mega-thread, but it needs to continue to be said, "The movement mechanics in this game are so freaking annoying. Especially in more enclosed spaces, the point and click movement has to go. I am travelling through the Underdark, and I can't tell you how many times my party members are getting in my way. I am constantly accidentally clicking on them and initiating dialogue. It's getting so that I want to just boot them all from the party just so I can explore the Underdark. I'm trying to click on a corpse or loot and one of them runs in the way and stands right on it, I click, and another dialogue is initiated.

We really really need WASD to be movement mechanics so we can just run around the map without so much clicking on everything, and we need jump to be automatic when outside of combat and we need group stealth and we need the camera controls to allow us to tilt the camera so when we zoom in we can actually see where we're going. Half the time, in the Underdark, I can't see ten feet in front of me because the land rises up and blocks my view. Then I'm clicking and holding my mouse and my character starts up the hill, turns around, and starts running in the opposite direction or something.

And Patch 6 IS absolutely having issues with party members following you. I can't tell you how many times I've had to click on Shadowheart or Glut or Lae'zel or Astarion and had to manually make them run to catch up to the party because they weren't moving, which I think was mentioned just above. And the jumping mechanics and so forth often have you doing weird things you don't want to do, and if I accidentally highlight an enemy I stop moving, and so on and so forth. I feel like the whole party movement mechanics need a complete overhaul. We need better climbing mechanics, jumping... everything. And the camera tilt! Please! Please! Please! It drives me crazy not being able to see where I'm going.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 30/10/21 01:36 AM
Yeah its horrid. The most frustrating thing for me personally is that I just can't get beyond this issue. Nothing else they do to the game is going to matter for me until this one is addressed. Truly, they need to prioritize, because this one is a massive barrier to entry.

Nothing else really matters by comparison. They could raise the level cap to 5, include 5 more companions, add 5 more new areas to explore and the missing classes, and none of it will make a difference because the way they handle basic movement is so infuriating that I just can't play the game for more than an hour before party movement woes completely eclipse everything else. It's really too bad. I'd like to like the game, and there are things that I do like, but the negative here outweighs all the positives. I can't believe its been a year and the camera is still locked and no progress has been made on this core complaint.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 30/10/21 02:30 AM
Ok. I don't like it. It drives me crazy, but for me, it's not game shattering. I really really hope they improve it, but I really do think the game has come a long way in a year. It's a great game that needs some basic, fundamental fixes, but it is, for me, the best D&D game out there.

I know. I know. Others might not think so, and I've certainly done my share of pointing out the flaws, but I'd still play it again and again even if they never fixed another thing I didn't like.

That said, the party mechanic and stuff, as I said before, is frustrating and annoying, and I do want them to fix it soon.

Oh, and I'm in no way saying your opinion is wrong btw. I'm just saying I don't share your more extreme hatred for it. I'd actually rather have an item management and UI overhaul first and a six person party and day/night. Well... Maybe item management and UI, then party movement and camera, then 6 person party, then day/night.

Ugh. I can't decide. It is pretty bad, the party movement mechanics, but item management is SO time consuming and boring... And the UI hotbar is such a mess... And 6 person party is SO needed. SO needed. Oh, but day/night.

I'm losing my mind. They need to fix all these things for their next patch. PLEEEEEEEAAAAAASE!
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 30/10/21 10:37 AM
At a minimum the game should support WASD for movement of the selected character, and provide a true orbital cam. That would not be my ideal scheme for a party based game, where I'd prefer to actually control the whole party, but it would at least be serviceable for general movement outside of combat, and allow me to play the game without wanting to pull my hair out every 5 seconds. I would not object to lazily playing this game with a controller, even if I had to padmap it myself, but currently that's impossible, because the controls here are so rigid. I'd prefer that the functionality which is required to make controller support viable eventually, be accessible through the keyboard and mouse scheme as well. This is the only game I've ever played where the movement and camera controls felt this punishing and this inflexible, and where I couldn't adapt it to something more comfortable via keybinds or some kind of options setting.

Most of my irritation in BG3 occurs during movement outside of combat, or during the transitions into/out of combat, so a driving character and orbital cam would at least make that portion of the game (which is actually most of the game) a lot more tolerable. I'd prefer over-the-shoulder for roaming outside of combat, but I'd even settle for POV over what we have now. You can tell from the way the current camera functions that there's nothing that would fundamentally prevent them from adopting such a scheme if they wanted to.

They desperately need to unlock the Z axis for their cam. Even if its not a full 360 orbital, the pitch on swinging the Z Axis is currently ridiculous. They have the Z axis camera angle pegged to the zoom distance, which is brutal. I can look down at almost 90 degrees if I zoom out fully, but can't even look up 10 degrees?

Right now the title of this thread remains a misnomer. It implies that there is a "Party Movement Mechanic" that actually exists in BG3, when there really isn't. All we have is a single character movement mechanic. Otherwise it's follow the leader with arbitrary AI pathing that we have no input or control over in the moment. You can cycle the leader position, but that's it. If it's going to play like that anyway, they might as well provide an orbital cam and control scheme that suits that sort of style more naturally, like virtually every other 3d rpg out there. Again, not my ideal, but it would be better than this.

Toggle ungroup all isn't nearly as helpful as I made it out to be initially. I wish that was the panacea here, but it's just not enough, and too unwieldy to be practical for the duration. The movement control scheme in this game is really ill suited for scouting and ambushing, to the point where I wish I could just drive from one combat to the next and have the party effectively disappear in a line behind me until the battle is joined or an encounter is initiated.
Posted By: Tarorn Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 31/10/21 06:27 AM
Love this game - spent about 5-10 minutes real time yesterday trying to link my party but only getting 3 ..it’s not game breaking but it’s bloody annoying - fix this and the camera a bit more …add animations for block and parry - best game ever !
And it’s still in EA - 249.2 hours in
Posted By: Ranxerox Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 03/11/21 12:53 AM
Lately I have been more or less trying to play ungrouped most of the time individually moving party members. It’s a lot more pointing and clicking but at least I have full control.

I really hope this issue gets resolved but I’m not optimistic that they’ll drop something that they seem to fully believe in.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 03/11/21 07:34 AM
Originally Posted by Ranxerox
Lately I have been more or less trying to play ungrouped most of the time individually moving party members. It’s a lot more pointing and clicking but at least I have full control.

I really hope this issue gets resolved but I’m not optimistic that they’ll drop something that they seem to fully believe in.

3 games with the chain... I guess they fully believe in it even if most players don't like it at all.
Posted By: Tarorn Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/11/21 08:02 AM
This and camera the two things that with work will make a huge difference to the overall enjoyability factor of the game.
Having said that 250 hours in this game is really hitting its straps but these two things would really help
Posted By: SerraSerra Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/11/21 11:00 AM
I don't see why they should ditch the current system as a whole, they simply need to adjust it (both camera and party control) to work better on controllers (YSK on stadia you can play with controller although not really supported or working at the moment) but they also REALLY NEED to develop a way to control the camera and the party specifically for M/K players without forcing them into a control scheme which seems to be developed primarily for playing with a controller because right now it feels like M/K players are handicapped because of being forced to play within the limitations of a controller based system without any of the advantages (e.g. no wasd movement for M/K , while on controller you can at least move around with the joysticks) which feels like forcing a handicap on players for no good reasons (M/K in theory would give most options for full control of both party and camera movement to the player).
TLTR: keep (but also improve !) current system for people using controllers to play BG3, but also develop a M/K control scheme in line with PC gaming tradition (instead of console/controller) which gives full camera (Z-axis !) and party control
Posted By: GM4Him Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/11/21 11:14 AM
Oh no. We need WASD. I've been playing for like 500+ hours and I'm STILL struggling with the darn movement controls. Last night, party members kept getting in my way, AGAIN. Just wanted to move forward and, "hi. So what can I do for you?". Ugh!

Another time, just came out the crypt. Tried to move forward. Nope. Right back down into the crypt. Camera angle made it so that anywhere I clicked on the screen, it would send me right back down. Second time, tried spinning the camera. "Hi. So what can I do for you."

Unless you remain zoomed out constantly, and even then it is still an issue, this point and click system is frustrating.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/11/21 12:37 PM
Originally Posted by SerraSerra
I don't see why they should ditch the current system as a whole, they simply need to adjust it (both camera and party control) to work better on controllers (YSK on stadia you can play with controller although not really supported or working at the moment) but they also REALLY NEED to develop a way to control the camera and the party specifically for M/K players without forcing them into a control scheme which seems to be developed primarily for playing with a controller because right now it feels like M/K players are handicapped because of being forced to play within the limitations of a controller based system without any of the advantages (e.g. no wasd movement for M/K , while on controller you can at least move around with the joysticks) which feels like forcing a handicap on players for no good reasons (M/K in theory would give most options for full control of both party and camera movement to the player).
TLTR: keep (but also improve !) current system for people using controllers to play BG3, but also develop a M/K control scheme in line with PC gaming tradition (instead of console/controller) which gives full camera (Z-axis !) and party control

Or they should playBG1/2 enhanced edition on console.
Just to notice that the classic system is better with M/K, better with a controler and that it works well with a stick/WASD.

The camera is not the main problem of their system. The unexpected movements of every characters is. The only solution with this chain is to make more click to chain/unchain.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/11/21 01:02 PM
Originally Posted by SerraSerra
I don't see why they should ditch the current system as a whole
Because it's absolutely, irredeemably abysmal at its core and any attempt to "salvage" it basically requires to dismantle the parts that make it bad, factually turning it into a different system.
Saying, for instance, "It wouldn't be so bad if it allowed group commands and formation controls" is factually equivalent to say "It wouldn't be bad if it was completely different".

The button shortcut that allow to group-ungroup the entire party was a nice addition that made this mess a lot more tolerable, but it's not enough to make it good.

Also, no, "working better on controllers" shouldn't be the design goal at all.
Both because the controller UI/control system can afford to be its own thing (case in point: WoTR basically marries DOS 2 control scheme on a controller with a traditional RTS system on M&KB) AND because some of us (me, for instance) have absolutely no interest whatsoever on playing this kind of game on a controller, to begin with.
So what we want is a better M&KB system, not support for alternate peripherals. These are different topics of discussion.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/11/21 01:40 PM
I absolutely think the camera is a big part of the problem. It has never been more apparent than in Grymforge. Walls in the way everywhere, I can't target enemies well because someone or something is in the way. It's frustrating. I launched magic missile at animated armor using the dumb thing's picture ini order because of this, and none of them hit. Why? Path obscured. No indication. I couldn't get the camera to work with me, and so my entire round was lost with my MC.

I even tried tactical view. It was worse.

This has quickly become my number 1 issue with the game. Movement and camera is annoying as heck. They've got to fix it.
Posted By: Ranxerox Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/11/21 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I absolutely think the camera is a big part of the problem. It has never been more apparent than in Grymforge. Walls in the way everywhere, I can't target enemies well because someone or something is in the way. It's frustrating. I launched magic missile at animated armor using the dumb thing's picture ini order because of this, and none of them hit. Why? Path obscured. No indication. I couldn't get the camera to work with me, and so my entire round was lost with my MC.

I even tried tactical view. It was worse.

This has quickly become my number 1 issue with the game. Movement and camera is annoying as heck. They've got to fix it.

+1

It is taking a lot of fun out of the game and it's like wearing a rancid pair of crocs with a tuxedo.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/11/21 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I absolutely think the camera is a big part of the problem. It has never been more apparent than in Grymforge. Walls in the way everywhere, I can't target enemies well because someone or something is in the way. It's frustrating. I launched magic missile at animated armor using the dumb thing's picture ini order because of this, and none of them hit. Why? Path obscured. No indication. I couldn't get the camera to work with me, and so my entire round was lost with my MC.

I even tried tactical view. It was worse.

This has quickly become my number 1 issue with the game. Movement and camera is annoying as heck. They've got to fix it.

This is absolutely not related to the chain mechanic.
The camera is totally another issue they'll have to fix.
Posted By: SerraSerra Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/11/21 04:26 PM
That's exactly my point Tucco, they need to develop a new control scheme specifically for MK players while salvaging the current system for people playing with controller. I mean for playing with a controller it's does have some potential to 'chain' the party so that it can be moved with 1 joystick instead of having to move each one individually and use your joystick as if were a mouse... Anyways, i think the camera is def. part of the issue as it is exactly their combination which makes the game really unplayable for those looking for a 'casual' experience (i.e. you can't see what you're doing because of the camera, and the mechanism for giving movement orders also not behaving as it should).
Posted By: GM4Him Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/11/21 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I absolutely think the camera is a big part of the problem. It has never been more apparent than in Grymforge. Walls in the way everywhere, I can't target enemies well because someone or something is in the way. It's frustrating. I launched magic missile at animated armor using the dumb thing's picture ini order because of this, and none of them hit. Why? Path obscured. No indication. I couldn't get the camera to work with me, and so my entire round was lost with my MC.

I even tried tactical view. It was worse.

This has quickly become my number 1 issue with the game. Movement and camera is annoying as heck. They've got to fix it.

This is absolutely not related to the chain mechanic.
The camera is totally another issue they'll have to fix.

How is it not related? I am constantly turning and swivelling the camera, zooming in and out to try to see where I'm going, where my party is, etc. It's all apart of the same broken system of movement.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/11/21 05:56 PM
Camera is a matter of view and environment.
The chain system is only about how the game allow you to select your character(s).

The chain would be just as bad in an empty world without any relief and with a better camera... even if obviously, a better camera would make it easier to control the characters in the environment.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 04/11/21 06:47 PM
OK. I guess. Perhaps I misunderstood, but I thought this entire thread was just about how bad the Party Movement Mechanics are, and camera goes right along with Party Movement because instead of using WASD keys to move your main character and have everyone follow, you use WASD to move the camera around and point and click, which is very frustrating and difficult to NOT click on things at random that you don't want to click on. I've clicked on traps by accident, crates, spoons, knives, forks, people I didn't want to talk to or trigger a fight with, you name it. I've run in opposite directions just becausae the camera doesn't point up enough and it's decided to click on something off screen behind my characters instead of moving me straight ahead, I've gone back down ladders and stairs because it randomly clicked on it, and all because Party Movement Mechanics are based on this move the camera with WASD instead of moving your character with WASD.

Either way, I 100% agree to both. Camera and Chain and the whole movement system needs a major fix probably before they do anything else in the game. It's just not good. Companions don't follow the party leader very well, and they are always running around you and doing all sorts of weird things as if they're just confused and disoriented constantly, I've had situations where lots of traps explode and kill everyone because companions are all weirdly and erratically moving everywhere, etc. etc. etc.

And group stealth is annoying as all get out. Gotta select each person separately and stealth each separately instead of one click and they all stealth.

And jumping is awful as well. I wind up leaving companions behind because they won't follow me because it's a jump. AUTO JUMP. AUTO JUMP. If you wouldn't get hurt, just let you all jump by clicking on where you want to go, no button jumping necessary unless it's during combat or the jump is going to potentially hurt you. And if you jump, and you're in Group Mode, all your companions should jump with you. If they get hurt, they get hurt because you chose to make the jump in Group Mode.

And... well... you get the picture. It's just all messed up. Grymforge is awesome. I love it. I think it's one of the best areas of the game so far, but it's hard to enjoy it when I'm constantly getting frustrated over something as stupid as movement controls .
Posted By: GM4Him Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/11/21 12:53 PM
Shadowheart died last night because of lava in Grymforge. RIP SH. I tried guiding her on safe paths, but she just wouldn't have it. Walked right into a lava bed because I turned and faced a different direction.

🤕
Posted By: ash elemental Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/11/21 06:21 PM
Lol, my sorceress decided to jump on the forge as the hammer was coming down.

The party control system is the worst feature of BG3, imo.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/11/21 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Lol, my sorceress decided to jump on the forge as the hammer was coming down.

The party control system is the worst feature of BG3, imo.

I didn't always think so. I mean, it was annoying, always, but recently it's become even worse. With the addition of Grymforge, it is completely unbearable. It has always been bad, and some areas are worse than others... ahem... the entire Underdark... ahem... but now it's just... yes. It's the worse element of the game.

We absolutely need WASD controls for movement, not camera. Let us set camera controls to something like Page Up, Page Down and Arrow Keys, or something! I cannot abide this clicking around thing. I'm constantly triggering traps and character dialogues, and STEALING things I never meant to steal and then getting into fights and having to reload because of it, and so on and so forth all because I'm trying to click on the darn space I want to click on and something or someone is getting in the way.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 11/11/21 08:09 PM
Because following a long Larian tradition if there's a way to make abysmal party controls even worse is pairing them with basically omnipresent environmental hazards, of course.
Posted By: Saito Hikari Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/11/21 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Because following a long Larian tradition if there's a way to make abysmal party controls even worse is pairing them with basically omnipresent environmental hazards, of course.

That reminds me, I think part of the reason why people don't seem to care or realize how bad the controls are is because DOS2 had very little in the way of overworld puzzles, or you could cheese them all with the multitude of teleportation-style skills in that game. Overworld hazards don't really exist in BG3 yet outside of a select few situations, though I haven't played Grymforge yet and it sounds like it's as awful as expected there.

I remember it being absolute hell in DOS1, which had puzzles and environmental hazards out the ass, usually of the instant kill everything blows up variety for even a single party member stubbing their toe on something they shouldn't have. I remember constantly unchaining and rechaining towards the second half of the game especially. That game also had immediate game overs if your two main characters died, even if the other two party members were still up.
Posted By: JandK Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/11/21 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
though I haven't played Grymforge yet and it sounds like it's as awful as expected there.

I've played through Grymforge several times, and there's nothing awful about the movement.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/11/21 10:58 PM
I've been having no end of trouble. I'm trying to jump around on these tiny platforms to avoid fiery deaths, and my companions just jump right onto the fire zones and get set on fire.

Shadowheart ran into the middle of the forge where the hammer drops and kills people... for no reason... right as I threw the switch to drop the hammer.

I'm just moving down a hall, holding the mouse button, and my cursor accidentally highlights over one of the duegar. Suddenly, I'm in conversation with him.

I go to try to click on a trap with Astarion in order to disable the trap, and I accidentally click on Lae'zel, sparking a convo, because she got in my way. I come out of the convo and she triggers the trap by running into it, blowing us up.

Shadowheart is following my MC as we leap over lava. Then she jumps in and dies.

Over and over again, it's bad.

And there have been so many times I've left companions behind because, for some reason, they just decide not to follow anymore.

It's bad. Real bad. Worse than ever, actually.
Posted By: JandK Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 12/11/21 11:47 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I've been having no end of trouble. I'm trying to jump around on these tiny platforms to avoid fiery deaths, and my companions just jump right onto the fire zones and get set on fire.

Shadowheart ran into the middle of the forge where the hammer drops and kills people... for no reason... right as I threw the switch to drop the hammer.

I'm just moving down a hall, holding the mouse button, and my cursor accidentally highlights over one of the duegar. Suddenly, I'm in conversation with him.

I go to try to click on a trap with Astarion in order to disable the trap, and I accidentally click on Lae'zel, sparking a convo, because she got in my way. I come out of the convo and she triggers the trap by running into it, blowing us up.

Shadowheart is following my MC as we leap over lava. Then she jumps in and dies.

Over and over again, it's bad.

And there have been so many times I've left companions behind because, for some reason, they just decide not to follow anymore.

It's bad. Real bad. Worse than ever, actually.

Something is WAY different with your game than mine. I'm not having any of these problems.

I haven't had characters jump into the lava at all, not even once. I'll start an accidental conversation occasionally, but it really is rare, and it's always just me mis-clicking.

Hearing what you're saying, it's almost like we're playing two different games.

ETA: I wonder if it's a Patch issue between Steam and Stadia.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/11/21 12:00 AM
Nah. It's always happened. Just not as bad as the Underdark and Grymforge.

The point is that the current system leaves too much room for these shinanigans. We need better movement controls or something especially for when you zoom in. Zoomed out isn't as bad for point and click, but zoomed in is atrocious.

And regardless, the characters are always bounding around doing their own things half the time.

And camera controls... I need to be able to tilt up more. Half the time I can't see things.
Posted By: JandK Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 13/11/21 12:03 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Nah. It's always happened. Just not as bad as the Underdark and Grymforge.

The point is that the current system leaves too much room for these shinanigans. We need better movement controls or something especially for when you zoom in. Zoomed out isn't as bad for point and click, but zoomed in is atrocious.

And regardless, the characters are always bounding around doing their own things half the time.

And camera controls... I need to be able to tilt up more. Half the time I can't see things.

If that's the case, then why am I not having these problems?

And why are so many people streaming the game having an experience that's a lot smoother than what you're describing?

ETA: Although the camera is tricky when it comes to things up high. It's doable. It takes a little getting used to, but it's definitely tricky and could be better, imo.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/11/21 06:56 PM
There is a better way to control your party. It's a tried and true method that has been in some of the best crpg's for decades.
But no, Larian loves the toilet chain...
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/11/21 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by Peranor
There is a better way to control your party. It's a tried and true method that has been in some of the best crpg's for decades.
[Linked Image from i.imgflip.com]
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/11/21 07:38 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Peranor
There is a better way to control your party. It's a tried and true method that has been in some of the best crpg's for decades.
[Linked Image from i.imgflip.com]
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=679414
Posted By: ash elemental Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 17/11/21 11:33 PM
Originally Posted by JandK
Something is WAY different with your game than mine. I'm not having any of these problems.
Well, I've had similar issues in my game. The pathing ai is fond of doing crazy stuff, and as of patch 6 it got worse.

Just because you don't experience a particular bug doesn't mean it's not there. I've reported some bugs I haven't seen mentioned often or at all here.
Posted By: Mikus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/11/21 02:46 AM
Click-and-drag selection of party member(s) not being in Larian's games is absolutely baffling. It's a much simpler/more intuitive mechanic, and has the added benefit of being used in BG (among many other similar games since). I've always hated the "toilet chain" mess, lol. Clunky UI in general was for me by far the biggest issue with DOS 1/2, and now I see its unfortunate legacy with this and many other issues in BG3.
Posted By: JandK Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/11/21 04:16 AM
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Just because you don't experience a particular bug doesn't mean it's not there. I've reported some bugs I haven't seen mentioned often or at all here.

That's what I said. I mentioned that I wasn't experiencing the problem, and then I wondered if it might be a Patch issue between different platforms.

But I was told no, that it had always happened and that it was an *issue with the system*.

To which I replied, in essence, if it's an issue with the system, why is it working alright for so many other people?

In other words, I never suggested it wasn't a bug particular to certain people.

Now. That said. Do I think it's possible that people are exaggerating their difficulties because they prefer different interface mechanics? Sure, it's possible. But I came into this discussion with an open mind, curious if it was an issue between platform updates.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/11/21 07:46 PM
Does this behaviour still happen to people?
I still notice is from time to time, even though the characters doesn't seems to spaz out quite as much as in the video anymore. But to be honest I don't play the game as much these days either. Trying not to burn my self out before the game goes live.

Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/11/21 08:01 PM
I didnt seen this for quite some while now. O_o
And not just bcs i no longer use guidance this way since patch 5 laugh
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/11/21 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by JandK
if it's an issue with the system, why is it working alright for so many other people?

I'm not sure it's "all right" for many people.
Reading the answers here and "statistics" we have tends to say that people more or less deal with it. Not that they particularly like it or that they find it "good".


Originally Posted by Maximuuus
THREAD STATISTICS

201 different players answered this thread from P1 to P29 (included)
I think I didn't forget anyone and I think no one is listed twice.
I also include people that just discussed in the thread without giving a strong +1 or -1. Usually those also have issues with the system.


RESULTS

- 147 (73%) of them gave a feedback that you can't missunderstood : they don't like this system
- 6 (less than 3%) said that they're pretty ok to deal with the system but they have issues with it
- 1 (less than 1%) seems to like it.
- 47 (23%) discussed issues related to this system or give related feedbacks, suggestions, specific issues etc... but didn't clearly wrote "I like it" or "I don't like it".

CONCLUSIONS

After re-reading ALL messages, looks like nearly 100% of players think that the system is far from being good.
Improvement are needed even if they won't solve every issues.

I guess that 100% of players would be fine with a classic control scheme but if Larian wants to keep this unpopular chain system, they should improve it.
A few suggestions from this thread :

- Add formations
- Add a group all / ungroup all button
- Fix the auto jump / auto follow
- Add a hide all button
- Add a "don't move" button
- Fix the pathfinding
- Fix the latency / missclick / missdrag while chaining / unchaining / clicking on portrait

This won't solve all issues - the biggest one is probably that you CAN'T select more than 1 character at the same time - but it would be good QoL improvement.
This system would still be bad both in solo and multiplayer, both on console and on pc - your characters would still move like chickens everywhere - select more than 1 / less than 4 companions would still gonna be tedious - you'll still have more click to do in comparison with a classic systems - but it would be "less bad".

Edit : the list has been updated in the previous message.
Edit 2 : I didn't saw any PROS for the chain from players who tried both systems in SP/MP or on Console/PC. That's why I assume in the conclusion that the chain is not better whatever the situation.

Other statistics we have about this mechanic (+- 1000 people right at the beginning of the EA)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sip8wb8Yu1-N1FC7dDY72RJewnu3hqvz/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IgN2IAZi8Hho6X_7XpiW-0N_cUYEJvX8/view

An average of 50% "satisfyed" and an average of 50% "not satisfyed" without any details or comments.

A few reddit threads about the chain :
this one show a video window if not inside an "url", very strange...
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/jber1g/feedback_character_selection_remove_all_the/

Threads people disagree with on reddit were usually downed to hell. Threads criticizing the chain always had support (less than an astarion artwork, ofc)

This system is definitely not as easy and intuitive as another one and it can creates more or less often unexpected reactions and situations.
They would be mad not to change it at some point (in BG3 or in their next games). Especially now that other studios have proven that you can have a main "classic system" that can conviently work "like a chain" for players using a controller.
Posted By: JandK Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/11/21 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I'm not sure it's "all right" for many people.

By other people, I'm referring to myself and streamers I see playing the game, as I mentioned in my earlier post.

Are there occasional issues? Sure.

But I'm not seeing the level of difficulty I keep hearing about. Not in my own play, and not in the channels I watch. So it leaves me with a question. If these issues are system wide, as is being suggested, then why am I not experiencing them? And why do I not see them in abundance on the channels I watch?

I think that's a fair question.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 18/11/21 11:59 PM
To summarize the broad sweep of this entire thread, several at the start voiced their desire for a movement mechanic/interface that looked and felt more like BG1/2 e.g. the RTS style command and control scheme, where the player controls all their characters at once, drag marquee to select either on screen or with portraits, ctrl A to "control all" etc. The standard conventions that have been in use in RTS games since the Mid 90s more or less.

Another point of view has that the BG3 movement interface is not enough like the FPS or driving command and control conventions of say a KOTOR (or similar games). Again conventions established in the Mid 90s, when the thumbsticks first began appearing on console controllers and 3d platformers and shooters were common. Also where the chain follower/AI henchmen dynamic first became really common in RPGs.

Most of the frustration I hear in this thread seems to stem from BG3 eschewing conventional controls in favor of something more esoteric and homegrown. Usually when this is done in a game to great effect, there is a clear design oriented or gameplay purpose which the developer is trying to achieve, stimulating some other area of our control minded brain I guess, as like an end goal in itself. I don't know that many people who have been griping in this thread feel that that's what's going on with BG3 though, or that if it is, that it's really worth it lol.

The question is fair, but the ready answer is I don't know and have no clue. I don't know how anyone finds this method of controlling the party ideal. If you're really digging it, I think you might be the first person here to say so. Somehow I doubt that people who find BG3s controls way frustrating would be out streaming about it or making constant commentary on their youtube channels or whatever at this point, but I don't know there either. I stopped watching most BG3 vids a while back.

Also, I was thinking just now, how perhaps Larian wants some kind of omnipresent danger or mishaps cooked in, so that like Lae'zel might burst into flames at the exact wrong moment, in much the same way that maybe a Kivan gets chunked in BG1, or Viconia paths off into a pitrap in BG2. Like 'oh damn, that was crazy! Maybe I'll reload or maybe not, because it was just like such a sight to see.' But I don't know, even if all the mishaps can be downed to user error in BG3, it's just not as endearing in that way. It feels like a strange hybrid of two different modes of control, each of which I enjoy on their own merits, just not in this particular marriage arrangement. I'd love a camera unlock. They probably are wary of fully unlocking the cam because of glitch out exploits or whatever, but I don't care. This is EA, just patch in the Z axis and separate the zoom and let people go wild with that for a few months. Least it would be something.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 19/11/21 12:30 AM
Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I'm not sure it's "all right" for many people.

By other people, I'm referring to myself and streamers I see playing the game, as I mentioned in my earlier post.

Are there occasional issues? Sure.

But I'm not seeing the level of difficulty I keep hearing about. Not in my own play, and not in the channels I watch. So it leaves me with a question. If these issues are system wide, as is being suggested, then why am I not experiencing them? And why do I not see them in abundance on the channels I watch?

I think that's a fair question.

You and your streamer does not make more click with the chain system ?
You always have an easy and precise control over your characters ?
The chain always break or link when you try to ?
You never experienced unexpected (or ridiculous) moves or climb ladder up/down because you change the selected character 1 sec too early ?
A "follower" never stop to follow so you click on his portait to unlock him, but then everyone else is going back ?

It does not matter if it happen every 10 seconds on someone's playthrough and every 20 minutes on yours.
These are problems you NEVER have with a good designed system.

They only added unecessary (occasionnal if it pleases you) issues when they tried to reinvent the wheel on top of giving a less efficient control to any players.
Posted By: Mikus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/11/21 02:28 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
These are problems you NEVER have with a good designed system.

They only added unecessary (occasionnal if it pleases you) issues when they tried to reinvent the wheel on top of giving a less efficient control to any players.

Exactly this, for the reasons given. The other older/tried-and-true control schemes mentioned in this thread (with, to my mind, the BG1/2 drag-and-select method being by far the most obvious contender) never have any of these or in my experience any other substantial issues, while the bizarre DOS1/2-legacy chaining system does - whether it's often or occasional in any one user's experience is irrelevant. I've yet to hear any valid gameplay reason not to fix it, though I very much doubt Larian will destroy it with fire as it so richly deserves given their strange investment in the system in DOS 1/2/"3". I really wish they would, though - along with a host of other improvements appropriately suggested elsewhere on the forums, it would make a good game so much more enjoyable.
Posted By: Ranxerox Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/11/21 11:00 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
They only added unecessary (occasionnal if it pleases you) issues when they tried to reinvent the wheel on top of giving a less efficient control to any players.

+1
Posted By: JandK Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 20/11/21 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
does not make more click with the chain system ?

I don't know what "make more click" means, but I don't have any problems with the chain system. It works fine for me.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/11/21 02:36 AM
Well, we do. So, let's say they create a new movement mechanics system because we don't like the current one, and it's better. Why argue with us over it?
Posted By: JandK Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/11/21 03:14 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Well, we do. So, let's say they create a new movement mechanics system because we don't like the current one, and it's better. Why argue with us over it?

I'm not arguing with you. Your opinion on this matter isn't high on my radar. I'm just responding to someone who quoted me, and ultimately letting Larian know that I think the movement system works fine.

Works fine when I play it. Works fine when I see other people play it.

I don't think it's a problem, and in my opinion they shouldn't change it. Doing so would be a waste of resources and could potentially turn into something worse, not better.

Personally, I'm beginning to think that the current system isn't what a handful of vocal people are used to, so they're exaggerating problems in an effort to push for a system their muscle memory prefers. I might be wrong, I don't know, but it makes sense to my anecdotal observations.

Regardless, I'm just sharing feedback about what I prefer. So I could flip your whole statement around and say, "I like the current one because I think it's great. Why argue with me over it?"

But I don't say that. Because I don't think these forums revolve around me.
Posted By: timebean Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/11/21 03:37 AM
I know it is unpopular, but I too find the chaining system and turn-based combat easier to manage than highlight party and RtWP-style games. It let’s me take my time and think a bit about each move and feels less chaotic to me.

I also think the UI is fine (tho I would like spell and potion sorting options in their own mini windows).

But I do agree with many posts here and in other places that the storytelling is somehow off. I find it more difficult to get immersed in the tale compared to other rpgs I have played. It feels…messy and confusing but not in a particularly fun way. But it is difficult for me to articulate why I feel that way (as I am not a writer myself except for terrible fan fics…lol).

I enjoy reading posts from those who have thought about it more than me and are attempting to reason out why and try to pinpoint the issues in a more thoughtful way. I think it is a fun exercise in disentangling the creative process and imagining what might work better.


Edited: *sorry all!! I thought I was in the “doesn’t feel like dnd” thread! Am half asleep! Ignore my ramblings!*
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/11/21 05:27 AM
Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
does not make more click with the chain system ?

I don't know what "make more click" means, but I don't have any problems with the chain system. It works fine for me.

It means that you have more things to do to achieve the same goal compared to another system.

Originally Posted by JandK
I don't think these forums revolve around me.

This thread mostly revolve arround facts than personnal preferencies even if players are sharing their experiences.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/11/21 06:54 AM
Originally Posted by JandK
Works fine when I play it. Works fine when I see other people play it.

I don't think it's a problem, and in my opinion they shouldn't change it. Doing so would be a waste of resources and could potentially turn into something worse, not better.

Personally, I'm beginning to think that the current system isn't what a handful of vocal people are used to, so they're exaggerating problems in an effort to push for a system their muscle memory prefers. I might be wrong, I don't know, but it makes sense to my anecdotal observations.

I'd go back to Y axis inversion as the clearest thing I can think of, for a reason not to write it off. For many players (people like me) a game with a camera or POV that cannot be inverted along the Y axis control input is instantly unplayable. It's not just that it's taxing on the muscle memory, it's actively disorienting and unplayable for me at this point in life. I could never change that about myself as a player, but fortunately there are enough players that share this predisposition that it is almost always included in games that adopt the normal conventions of cam control with an orbital. The way that movement works right now in the BG3 game, the camera is what we control for navigation, not the character, so it seems highly relevant.

I know it was mentioned before that the camera is a separate issue, but I think it's core. The character can be issued commands, but it's the camera we're actually managing to maneuver. In this current scheme the camera is pegged to have the angle tied to the zoom distance. That is not really conventional, it is rather unconventional actually, and runs roughshod over like years of training across many games and platforms using a particular method of camera or character control in 3D RPGs. In a more standard ISO game this can be overcome cause the cam is just locked at some set distance (usually too close and at too high an angle for my tastes) but this game is really more of a driving vibe for how the cam works. The cam in WASD I mean, it's basically a 3d driver, with the camera taking up the driving view, except that unlike a normal 3D driver I can't invert. I can only to track and chase, with the tunnel click, which is really uncomfortable for my sense of equilibrium and just frustrating. It's hard to explain why I don't like this for a 3d nav, maybe it is in the bones or the muscles, but I can't ignore it hehe.

I understand the alternative, basically to play in tactical view for the duration, but for me that angle is just horrible, and trying to keep the cam in proper iso just locked also seems impossible to maintain. It works for movement at distance but not really for interaction or engaging my immersion during exploration. So it's a bind. Characterizing it as a handful of people that are very loud just kinda minimizes what is in my view a pretty legitimate gripe with how characters are controlled and selected and moved about in BG3. The cursor left click is still pretty unresponsive too, which makes chaining (among other things) a chore. Selecting an action or another character or anything really hinders the ability to use the cursor effectively. The need to cancel action so often is also a hinderance. It's hard for me to move the party around and get them going where I want them to go. This sort of control scheme can't be mapped to a controller easily either. Unless the idea is to use the left thumbstick as a track cam and the right thumbstick like the mouse cursor, which I don't I relish the idea of. I'd probably get blown up faster than Smash TV if that's their plan lol. There are many reasons for them to revisit this issue and provide more options from my perspective and bias. It's not just wasted resources if it results in more sales though, because more people can actually play the game comfortably. I've ceded I think a lot of wishful ground from where I began in this thread initially, like I've basically given up on it shaping out with an RTS style command and control option, even though to me that is the spirit of Baldur's Gate. I would totally settle at this point for something more Dragon Age in the execution or just a standard driving cam. I worry if I don't get that at least, then the game is just toast for me and I burned a c-note and a year on the boards for a game I know I won't be able to play for any length of time lol.

Right now the only way I can really play this game is at max zoom out distance, constantly reorienting the camera at the furthest possible remove and often with the environments or ceiling clipping into frame. I'm constantly stuck between zooms or at some weird angle, like a disembodied ghost fiddling with a rear view mirror or something. Always trying to get the camera to do what I want it to do, so I can see what I want to see, so I can get the characters to go where I want them to go hehe.

But much of the beauty of the game for me outside of combat comes from the fully zoomed-in view. All the exploration and ambiance and environmental detailing. So it just feels like missing out on so much due to a control issue, simply to move around comfortably, when I feel like these issues have been well resolved in many other similar games. I can't figure why they'd they limit it in the ways they have. It seems like the 3d environments and gameplay views would work fine with a more standard driver, which would accommodate me much better.

Originally Posted by timebean
I know it is unpopular, but I too find the chaining system and turn-based combat easier to manage than highlight party and RtWP-style games. It let’s me take my time and think a bit about each move and feels less chaotic to me.

I also think the UI is fine (tho I would like spell and potion sorting options in their own mini windows).

But I do agree with many posts here and in other places that the storytelling is somehow off. I find it more difficult to get immersed in the tale compared to other rpgs I have played. It feels…messy and confusing but not in a particularly fun way. But it is difficult for me to articulate why I feel that way (as I am not a writer myself except for terrible fan fics…lol).

I enjoy reading posts from those who have thought about it more than me and are attempting to reason out why and try to pinpoint the issues in a more thoughtful way. I think it is a fun exercise in disentangling the creative process and imagining what might work better.


Edited: *sorry all!! I thought I was in the “doesn’t feel like dnd” thread! Am half asleep! Ignore my ramblings!*

It's cool, raises a fair point, sometimes the sleep deprivation pays off hehe. I have tried to accept the chain as a concept that many people will find simpler particularly if the game is played with a controller and as the pathing gets less hectic. But there are still issues with how the most basic cam control and character selection/movement are working for me that are hard to get past. The tunnel click and the cam tilt, how selection works with command always before targeting (instead of the reverse which I'd think would be needed for controller play) other things like that, which would make this scheme just work better for me on the whole. Things which aren't really working for me now, but might be tweaked into something I can use, even if I don't particularly like it at bedrock for a BG game.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/11/21 08:35 AM
Originally Posted by JandK
I'm just responding to someone who quoted me, and ultimately letting Larian know that I think the movement system works fine.

Works fine when I play it. Works fine when I see other people play it.

I don't think it's a problem, and in my opinion they shouldn't change it. Doing so would be a waste of resources and could potentially turn into something worse, not better.

Personally, I'm beginning to think that the current system isn't what a handful of vocal people are used to, so they're exaggerating problems in an effort to push for a system their muscle memory prefers. I might be wrong, I don't know, but it makes sense to my anecdotal observations.
Agreed ... curent system also works well for me, it could potentialy be better tho and there was few good ideas in this (and few other) threat ...

And concidering what happened with spellcasting, im also kinda affraid what will be outcome when Larian start to mess with slightly suboptimal, but still sufficient and working system to "make it better". :-/
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/11/21 12:04 PM
Originally Posted by JandK
I don't know what "make more click" means, but I don't have any problems with the chain system. It works fine for me.
In terms of efficiency it's genuinely atrocious under pretty much any sort of objective metric.
The numbers of clicks and general UI interactions required to achieve anything is at the bottom tier of what the genre usually can offer.
The fact that one can make it work to some limited extent if willing to struggle with it doesn't really make for a a great redeeming quality.
Posted By: JandK Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/11/21 04:15 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by JandK
I don't know what "make more click" means, but I don't have any problems with the chain system. It works fine for me.
In terms of efficiency it's genuinely atrocious under pretty much any sort of objective metric.
The numbers of clicks and general UI interactions required to achieve anything is at the bottom tier of what the genre usually can offer.
The fact that one can make it work to some limited extent if willing to struggle with it doesn't really make for a a great redeeming quality.

It works fine for me. Not to a limited extent, but fine, as in it works well without a problem. It doesn't require a struggle.

I don't agree that you have an objective, scientific scale that measures "genuinely atrocious." Rather, that's just your subjective opinion, and other opinions differ.
Posted By: mrfuji3 Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/11/21 04:37 PM
Measuring "# of clicks to perform tasks" is a fairly objective metric. E.g., starting with a fully grouped party and trying to split it into 2 groups, then move them to different locations.

Marquee Select
Click and drag to highlight 2 characters. Click location you want them to move
Click and drag to highlight other 2 characters. Click location.
4 clicks (with 2 drags)

Larian Chain
Drag one character out of the chain. Drag another character out of the chain and to that first character
Click location to move the 2 characters you already have selected.
Click a character in the other group. Click location.
5 steps, including 2 (de)chains which are finnicky and sometimes fail to work properly. So let's call it 5+ steps.

Even the most basic "move a single character" is more steps with a chain. "Click character -> move them" in Marquee select vs "de-chain -> click character -> move them" in Larian Chain.

Edit: The importance you place on this metric is subjective, sure. But I'd be extremely surprised if someone expressed the opinion that "more clicks for the same result is better." So at very best, this feature of Larian Chain is only a minor negative.
Posted By: Ranxerox Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/11/21 04:45 PM
I'm certainly in the it's atrocious camp.

When I play I only have my party chained when I am moving in areas I know have been cleared of enemies/traps. Otherwise I move my party individually which is more work but means I don't have to put up with the ridiculous antics that often occur when chained. As well for the same reason I never ascend/descend ladders, ledges, or walls whilst chained. So essentially I don't actually use the chain system. One key "group/ungroup" has been a godsend.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/11/21 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by JandK
It works fine for me. Not to a limited extent, but fine, as in it works well without a problem. It doesn't require a struggle.
No, it just doesn't.
It doesn't even matter how much you can lower your standards to be "just fine with it". It works *measurably* poorly regardless of your acceptance of it.

It's something that goes beyond personal opinions: when an UI/control scheme requires multiple additional intermediate steps to achieve the same results, it's objectively bad at its job.
Posted By: Peranor Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/11/21 08:30 PM
Originally Posted by JandK
I don't agree that you have an objective, scientific scale that measures "genuinely atrocious." Rather, that's just your subjective opinion, and other opinions differ.


The amount of clicks to achieve something is a cornerstone in interface design. Keep it as low as possible or you have failed, just as Larian have failed with their movement mechanics. It's most certainly not a subjective opinion, it's not buzzwords or hyperbole. It's fact.
Posted By: JandK Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/11/21 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by JandK
It works fine for me. Not to a limited extent, but fine, as in it works well without a problem. It doesn't require a struggle.
No, it just doesn't.
It doesn't even matter how much you can lower your standards to be "just fine with it". It works *measurably* poorly regardless of your acceptance of it.

It's something that goes beyond personal opinions: when an UI/control scheme requires multiple additional intermediate steps to achieve the same results, it's objectively bad at its job.

haha, this is getting ridiculous. I'm sorry you don't like it, but do I really have to point out that you can't tell me how it works for me? This is absurd. Speak for yourself, please. I'll speak for me. Thank you.

Now. When I say it doesn't require a struggle and it works great for me... that's entirely what I mean. It works well. I love it. I don't want them to change a thing about it.

Originally Posted by Peranor
Originally Posted by JandK
I don't agree that you have an objective, scientific scale that measures "genuinely atrocious." Rather, that's just your subjective opinion, and other opinions differ.


The amount of clicks to achieve something is a cornerstone in interface design. Keep it as low as possible or you have failed, just as Larian have failed with their movement mechanics. It's most certainly not a subjective opinion, it's not buzzwords or hyperbole. It's fact.

It takes more time and energy to read the click analysis in an earlier post than it takes to just play the game using the interface.

The system works fine. It's intuitive. It gives the proper amount of control and the "cost of clicks" is negligible.

If you want to tell me that it's "atrocious" in your opinion, fine. Who am I to tell you what your opinion is? But just so you know, when you say that, what I hear is that we have different opinions. Which is a part of life.

But please stop trying to sell opinion as fact. It makes it difficult to have a conversation and appraise the feedback in a serious way.
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/11/21 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by JandK
It takes more time and energy to read the click analysis in an earlier post than it takes to just play the game using the interface.
What a fucking ridiculous argument.

As if the two things had any correlation to begin with.
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 21/11/21 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by JandK
It's intuitive

Unchain other characters to select and move a single character is definitely intuitive smile
Posted By: Tuco Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/11/21 01:54 AM
Having to select all your party members one-by-one to put your entire party in or out of stealth?
Textbook intuitive!

And a paragon of efficiency too, I guess.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/11/21 02:08 AM
I'm fairly certain some people are Larian employees out here defending Larian's decisions and mechanics and such.
Posted By: Soul-Scar Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/11/21 02:23 AM
If my selected character simply looks in a different direction the entire team 8 time out of 10 decide to,

1) Run round in circles
2) Climb a ladder
3) Jump off or up something
4) set off a trap I am trying to disarm
5) Wiggle about looking all over the joint

On occasion one character will stop dead somewhere because,

1) There is fire that requires a slight detour
2) Astarion sees a puddle
3) two people try and climb a ladder at the same time
4) They get stuck in dialouge with an NPC for some reason
5) They are required to jump but cannot figure out the path

This having the secondary consequence of either running your entire team back to the "walt disney" (frozen solid) character or pissing about with the chanining shite in the hope it works and doesn't send everyone auto-pathing to each other, getting stuck again......pfft

When chaining/unchaining or reordering the team,

1) It will refuse to move the 1st position character unless you totally unchain and rechain but sometime this requires many attempts
2) Moving a character from the 3rd position to first is practically impossible without doing the chain dance.
so on and so forth.

I have read hundreds experiencing these ^^^^^ issues on these forums, discord and reddit, HUNDREDS. So at some point "opinion" ceases being relevant and the word "objective" can be used. As a statement of fact this system and the auto-pathing is abysmal.

I don't understand how a very select few are having no issues when the vast majority of players are reporting the exact same issues?
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/11/21 03:11 AM
Originally Posted by JandK
Now. When I say it doesn't require a struggle and it works great for me... that's entirely what I mean. It works well. I love it. I don't want them to change a thing about it.

If you thought it was getting ridiculous before lol. This thread has been very charged from it's inception and it's author definitely framed it that way at the outset, but for some reason it was selected as the catch-all Megathread to discuss everything movement and selection related on these boards. It just kept absorbing other threads like a gelatinous cube. This whole forums section was basically created as an excuse to get rid of this thread, the 4v6 thread and the RTWP thread, so they could be moved out of the Feedback section where they were being bumped constantly for months and apparently taking up too much attention there.

To me it is curious and kind of refreshing to hear from an actual apologist for the game's current movement mechanic, since as I mentioned earlier, I think you're the first one to chime in here without equivocation or caveat, to express a genuine preference, even love, for the BG3 party movement controls and the chain. I disagree completely with your assessment, but it's a nice change of pace hehe.

It's even more fascinating, because contrary to what I might expect, we seem to be roughly similar in age and previous gaming experience (just judging from your feedback in other threads), such that I can't blame this one on a generational divide or take it down to someone just being habituated by DOS systems with no other point of reference for comparison.

To me its a bit like being given a left handed pair of scissors by a left handed person, and hearing about how intuitive and ergonomic they are. Then I try to use them with my right hand, being right handed, and know instantly that this is all wrong and a terrible design for anyone like me. Then trying to make the case for something more universal or ambidextrous in the design, in the hopes of not being forced to use these whack scissors all day long lol.

It's cool that you enjoy playing the game and find it comfortable, and that you'd rather just play it than read arguments here about extraneous clicks and whatnot, when they don't seem to affect your enjoyment and aren't really on your radar. For me it's the exact opposite situation, in that I'd rather just play the game and enjoy it, but because it's controls are so onerous and so awful, I just can't do that. I'm locked out of the thing and can't enjoy it. So instead I'm here trying to raise the red flags so that hopefully they take note and actually do something about it. As it stands I would never have purchased this game had I known how little development there would be on this issue over the course of a year, and I'd certainly never buy another Larian game if they just let it ride like this. I'm not generally a detractor, but I can't imagine myself having very nice things to say about Larian as a developer or what they've done with the legacy of my all time favorite CRPG franchise if they stay the course on this one. When someone says something like 'sorry, if you don't like it, but they really shouldn't change anything or try to accommodate you cause that'd just be a waste of resources, the "sorry" part feels a bit disingenuous lol.

I know these forums are full of sometimes abrasive personalities and that it's easy to spiral downward with a quickness here. Turning up the volume and resorting to ridicule is not always the most helpful dynamic, to be sure, and if you see that being directed at you apologies for the general climate here. That said, I don't consider myself to be exaggerating in the least when I say I find the 'movement mechanic' in BG3 to be extraordinarily annoying, just like I don't take you to be exaggerating when you say you love it. Were the positions reversed, and the game worked perfectly well for me in that regard, but not for you, it's entirely possible I wouldn't even be here cause I'd be buried so deep in the game I'd have no use for these forums. I mean I clocked probably 2000 hours in BG1 in the period after its initial release (and many more since) and never once felt the need to join random boards to gripe about anything. I was entirely satisfied and happy there to just enjoy what was on offer and praise it when the odd occasion might arise. Of course BG3 is characterized as Early Access, and I don't have the same experience here, so I spend an inordinate amount of time on these boards trying to get a foot in the door and raise the issues where I see them.

This one, the party movement scheme and the chain (and more than that even, the single character movement and camera control) are major barriers to my enjoyment of the game. Overshadows everything else about the game for me. Sure I could just quit and write it off, I certainly don't need to be reminded of the sunk cost fallacy here, I'm definitely living it heheh, but long as there is the possibility of some redress I hold out hope. Also I don't think you're a Larian employee trying to defend the game. I don't question your rationality or ability to assess your own opinion. I can't speak for anyone else here, and wouldn't want to be grouped into a faction with anyone. I appreciate your participation and your feedback, even though I completely disagree with it on this issue. Though I'm sure someone else's remarks will probably grab the spotlight, and this reply will soon be buried by others. That's just how it seems to work here, unfortunately. But I'd love to hear the spirited defense of the current system from someone who truly enjoys it, if only so that others might tune their rebuttals in a way that's more constructive.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: BG3 Party Movement Mechanic - 22/11/21 03:39 AM
Originally Posted by Soul-Scar
If my selected character simply looks in a different direction the entire team 8 time out of 10 decide to,

1) Run round in circles
2) Climb a ladder
3) Jump off or up something
4) set off a trap I am trying to disarm
5) Wiggle about looking all over the joint

On occasion one character will stop dead somewhere because,

1) There is fire that requires a slight detour
2) Astarion sees a puddle
3) two people try and climb a ladder at the same time
4) They get stuck in dialouge with an NPC for some reason
5) They are required to jump but cannot figure out the path

This having the secondary consequence of either running your entire team back to the "walt disney" (frozen solid) character or pissing about with the chanining shite in the hope it works and doesn't send everyone auto-pathing to each other, getting stuck again......pfft

When chaining/unchaining or reordering the team,

1) It will refuse to move the 1st position character unless you totally unchain and rechain but sometime this requires many attempts
2) Moving a character from the 3rd position to first is practically impossible without doing the chain dance.
so on and so forth.

I have read hundreds experiencing these ^^^^^ issues on these forums, discord and reddit, HUNDREDS. So at some point "opinion" ceases being relevant and the word "objective" can be used. As a statement of fact this system and the auto-pathing is abysmal.

I don't understand how a very select few are having no issues when the vast majority of players are reporting the exact same issues?

This. This right here. All of it. 100%. Especially the slight turn cra