Larian Studios
Posted By: OneManArmy Let's make Minthara Great Again - 05/08/21 01:16 AM
Me and many guys from the Minthara fan club are very upset that Larian decided to completely change Minthara s appearance. Please return everything as it was before patch 5. Thanks.

[Linked Image from b.radikal.ru]
[Linked Image from d.radikal.ru]
[Linked Image from static1.srcdn.com]
[Linked Image from pcinvasion.com]

VS
[Linked Image from a.radikal.ru]

It reminded me of a clown doll:
[Linked Image from dolls-puppets.com]

[Linked Image from a.radikal.ru]


The first version is much better. If the second version is released into the game, there will be much fewer Minthar fans. crazy

I think some of the game designers read the feedback about her hairstyle (I personally liked the previous version, but I remember there was a small discussion). And in the end game designers decided to change not only her hairstyle, but everything in general. We did not ask you for this.

Or perhaps Larian wanted to make her even more evil in appearance... but is it necessary?
Perhaps you were embarrassed by the talk about the arch of redemption, and you decided to adjust its cute appearance for a more demonic one?
I don't know, I missed patch 4 but she kind of looked like a dude before.
I like the new mintara, also her armor is very tight. I witnessed things I am not very interested in ahahhahaha
Originally Posted by Araanidim
I don't know, I missed patch 4 but she kind of looked like a dude before.
Really? I have exactly this impression now. laugh
Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh, disgusting.
Fun fact: I once read a RPG story that featured Drow females doing what they do in Drow society, meaning backstabbing, scheming etc.

And in that story more often they beat down each other naturally.
One of the favourite methods to shame another Drow female was to cut off her hair.

Highlighting that this Drow female has been "dominated" by one superior.
And dominance is what Drow culture is all about after all.
" A weakling or traitor does not have the right for long hair. "
" You can first glance identify an inferior Drow female for being unable to protect her hair. "

And now this happens! grin
Honestly, every time I see Minthara, both before and after, all I can think of is David Bowie.

Minthara before:

[Linked Image from pbs.twimg.com]

Minthara after:

[Linked Image from images.squarespace-cdn.com]
Terrible thread title, but I did prefer her previous look with the purple armor and the rat's nest do over the pixie cut.

One of the things they changed with the most recent patch was to make eyelash color match the hair color choice. Not just for Minthara but for custom PCs as well.

This was a terrible choice, since it makes the eyelashes just look like a bad eyeliner application depending on the hair color you choose.

Whiteout for mascara is fine for D&D fashion week, but in that case they should make eyelashes a separate field in the appearance tab the way the eyeshadow is handled, since now I can't stand looking at any character with white hair, because of what it does to the eyes. I'm sure it was meant to add another layer of detail/realism to the face models, but it ends up just looking poorly rendered now.
I donno man, I didn't even like her previous look either. She looks too modest to be a drow in either version given the fact that drow society is highly hedonistic and abusive in DnD universe.
Yes... I felt used and dirty after my interaction with her. Never again frown Maybe :V NOT THAT IT IS AN INTEREST! Just.. In another game I'll have to go through this again after release.
I dunno what strikes me harder ...
The fact that someone concidered Minthara to look like David Bowie ... or the fact that he is right. laugh

Originally Posted by Black_Elk
One of the things they changed with the most recent patch was to make eyelash color match the hair color choice. Not just for Minthara but for custom PCs as well.
I didnt even notice that was changed ...
I mean i did notice that my drow had while eyelashes ofcourse, but didnt remembered it was different before. laugh

But i actualy kinda like it, it makes sence to me. O_o
So honestly i hope this stays at least as option.
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
One of the things they changed with the most recent patch was to make eyelash color match the hair color choice. Not just for Minthara but for custom PCs as well.

This was a terrible choice, since it makes the eyelashes just look like a bad eyeliner application depending on the hair color you choose.

Whiteout for mascara is fine for D&D fashion week, but in that case they should make eyelashes a separate field in the appearance tab the way the eyeshadow is handled, since now I can't stand looking at any character with white hair, because of what it does to the eyes. I'm sure it was meant to add another layer of detail/realism to the face models, but it ends up just looking poorly rendered now.

Um... actually you can still choose black eyelashes in the hair options with white and many other colored hairs. It's in your character creation "appearance" options.
+1

She was no Viconia, but now she looks horrible and her voice doesn't match.
Originally Posted by Aazo
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
One of the things they changed with the most recent patch was to make eyelash color match the hair color choice. Not just for Minthara but for custom PCs as well.

This was a terrible choice, since it makes the eyelashes just look like a bad eyeliner application depending on the hair color you choose.

Whiteout for mascara is fine for D&D fashion week, but in that case they should make eyelashes a separate field in the appearance tab the way the eyeshadow is handled, since now I can't stand looking at any character with white hair, because of what it does to the eyes. I'm sure it was meant to add another layer of detail/realism to the face models, but it ends up just looking poorly rendered now.

Um... actually you can still choose black eyelashes in the hair options with white and many other colored hairs. It's in your character creation "appearance" options.


I wasn't able to see any appearance option that governed this consistently. With the "All colors" tab selected most colors will still show dark lashes. For the lighter shades there are some pairings of similar colors one of which affects the lashes and brows, and the other which doesn't. If you deselect the "All" to show only natural colors there are only a couple light grays that do it. I guess it's the look they must want her to have, but I think she looked better before for the reasons above.

All the whites still blow out the hair though and give those artifacts. The lashes look the same for the all the color choices that affect them, they break up at the edges except for when viewed in the super zoom. I think its mainly the opacity. They need to knock it back and soften it up, so the hairs are more transparent. That would help to prevent the scatter effect when its being animated and the hairs are bouncing around. Right now its like you can see it pixelating by individual strands. Particularly stark when the hair is white shown against a darker eyeshadow or skin tone or set against a dark backdrop or feature of the environment. The environmental lighting also doesn't seem to carry as well when bouncing off the hair. The chroma seems to change more than the value in dim light for example, which is a little wonky. Its only really noticeable like this because its otherwise rendered out pretty well and the modelling in this game is pretty gorgeous, so it stands out more by comparison I guess.

I think the purple worked better for a couple reasons, but mainly because we perceive color relative to the other colors around it. Since we see her usually indoors during most cutscenes and in orange lighting from flames, the purple made a nice complementary contrast. You can see it in the screens a few posts above. Instead of appearing cool against a warm backdrop, now she looks warm against a warm one, because of all the oranges and reds carrying through. It makes her eyes more red as well. Its subtle but I noticed for sure. Orange and Green lighting is classic horror, and I think her purple gear worked nicely against it. The trim on her new gear makes it look more like a button up shirt than armor. I think they should hit the drawing board again.

The main reason she looks better in the cutscene screenshots above, as opposed the convo shots above, is because she is being backlit there in the cinematics, which obviously makes her look more ominous and badass hehe. To see the difference you'd need the same shots side by side. She's not as bad as the convo pics above would suggest, but the changes still stand out pretty markedly. It was kind of a curious choice.

If they really want her to look more badass, they should dress her in black. Black threads, Indigo/Purple skin and White hair with a tiny flash of red from the belt jewel and her eyes. That is a pretty classic villainous look and color combo. Really hard to top I'd think. Unless they want to go Black with hints of Green, which is witch-queen classic, that might also be cool. But I kind liked the purple they had initially, much more than the red-orange-purple at any rate. They basically inverted the main color-values of her outfit. Now the areas that used to appear light seem more muted, and everything comes across in the midrange, instead of setting up a nice contrast. You can see it in how the collar and trim look now relative to each other, and how the rings and decorative metallic parts of her shirt now look flattened out and more like a cloth pattern. Especially the detailing on the arms. The first read was much more dramatic.

Not to over scrutinize MInthara's looks, I'm sure if they took away Halsin's guns or locks they'd probably get a similar response haha. I think she has a memorable face and voice and makes for a solid B villain. She's more Shar-Teel than Viconia. I was kinda surprised when she ended up being a Cleric and not just some skull cracker haha. It's more the ancillary elements in her design that they could play up though I think. I liked the raggedy sleeps-where-the-goblins-sleep vibe of her first haircut, but I think they could go next level with it. If she was dressed in all black in the opening scene when the Nautiloid is crashing, I think it would make her seem like a more serious threat and general point of interest. Cause you'd know immediately she was all darkside cutthroat murderess for sure in that case. Give her a sword, and it's like done deal!

She should be a companion down the line.
It is like cancer that game developers think putting masculine properties on a female character makes her unique or they just want to project their political stance and cover it in disguise of "unique" design choise.
Originally Posted by sinogy
I donno man, I didn't even like her previous look either. She looks too modest to be a drow in either version given the fact that drow society is highly hedonistic and abusive in DnD universe.

That made a lot of more sense though.
Originally Posted by sinogy
It is like cancer that game developers think putting masculine properties on a female character makes her unique or they just want to project their political stance and cover it in disguise of "unique" design choise.

As a female with very short hair - it is not a "masculine property", thanks very much!!!
Why do men think that there's some sort of sinister agenda or political undertone to making a female character who isn't a walking stereotype... They're just trying something new lmfao
Ok. So I know I said she looked like David Bowie and all, but I actually thought her new look was an improvement and fit her voice better. In some of the darker moments, she's really much creepier to me and more Drow looking.

But, I'm not opposed to them trying yet another look or reverting.
Honestly i dont like her hair ...
But i believe i would not mind it at all ...

But it seems to me like her face was also recreated, and it isnt better now. :-/
Is that just make up or some minor change, or complete redesign? I dunno ... but before i really find her pretty, now i dont.
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by sinogy
It is like cancer that game developers think putting masculine properties on a female character makes her unique or they just want to project their political stance and cover it in disguise of "unique" design choise.

As a female with very short hair - it is not a "masculine property", thanks very much!!!

Thankfully you are not a game character.
Never understood that idea of women with short hair is somehow masculine. Why isn't the same idea applied to men with long hair?
Originally Posted by Veilburner
Never understood that idea of women with short hair is somehow masculine. Why isn't the same idea applied to men with long hair?

We live in times also in which certain hairstyles have earned themself a bad reputation.
Because they were adopted by people of repulsive behaviour & ideologies.
People who become Meme's and warning signals for the masses.


I am a man so I cannot say for the other way around but long hair has a very female impression in our modern society.
And it will remain this way no matter what some very loud & influental people say or do.
It just is that way.
Furthermore and as countless other heterosexual males, I have come to like it and view it as strongly expressing the feminim beauty.
"Short hair" for Women is considered shoulder deep probably for most.

But this?
This what happened to Minthara?
It is just "punk" or "feminist" or whatever "renegade" like style.
Very bad.

With Drow: You know they are fanatics. But now?
Now Minthara looks like she is nothing but some sort of insufferable extremist.


The calm, calculating, manipulative Drow who uses her feminim charm has disappeared.
She looks like someone being aggressive & verbally offensive to people in her society, probably on "protests".
^
This is what the new hairstyle of her's is now making me expect.
Just terrible.
Nothing wrong with a short hair style, it just that this hair style looks horrible for her. Everything else is fine, but this particular new hair looks terrible on her.
Drow tend to keep their hair longer with webbing and such as decorations. I'm fine with whatever they do with her appearance, really, but I'd either like to see something more traditional in terms of Drow female hair or give me a reason why she isn't that way. Maybe she cut her hair on purpose because she's apart of the cult of Absolute, so she's rejecting her own culture. Maybe she was disgraced by her people and they cut her hair and it was a reason why she joined the Absolute.

But, again, either way, it's a VERY small point for me. I'd just like to see her be MORE evil. None of the villains right now really give me any kind of totally evil and tough vibes except Minthara. When she's talking to Sazza and such, I get some chills. She SEEMS like she could be REALLY awesome as a first main villain, but they just don't do enough with her. Make a cutscene where she actually tosses someone in the spider pit and grins wickedly as she watches her spiders feast. Have her do more during the final grove fight, if you take that route. SOMEthing more. Right now, none of the villains are particularly menacing to me, and Minthara in particular seems like she really COULD be. Ragzlin just seems like a tough thug and Gut is an old lunch lady who can't do much. At least Minthara is something more... or at least she really could be.
Do we really need cutscenes for every single butt scratching in game? :-/

I mean come on ...
Minthara sends goblins to kill Sazza, bcs dealing with her personaly in beneath her.
You can go with them and watch the whole execution up close (funny, i never actualy tryed to save her, now when i think about it) ...

Isnt that enough? :-/
To me it seems much better, than Disney's Maleficient laughting in storm. -_-
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Do we really need cutscenes for every single butt scratching in game? :-/

I mean come on ...
Minthara sends goblins to kill Sazza, bcs dealing with her personaly in beneath her.
You can go with them and watch the whole execution up close (funny, i never actualy tryed to save her, now when i think about it) ...

Isnt that enough? :-/
To me it seems much better, than Disney's Maleficient laughting in storm. -_-

Ah yes! Thanks for quoting what I suggested word for word. Nothing says evil villain like a good butt scratch cutscene. And yes, no one is as evil as Maleficent. Glad I brought her up too.

No wait! I DIDN'T.

I'm not looking for any of that. I said I just wanted something more sinister. The villains, all three of them, don't get much screen time at all, so they seem rather un-evil. Minthara is the only one who strikes me as being good enough at being a true evil villain, but they don't have her DO much of anything. IF you release Sazza, you get a glimpse of her evil, but that's it. IF you lure her to the grove for a final showdown, she side-steps an arrow like a bad-÷×%, but again, that's it.

She might not be a big boss in the grand scheme of things, but she could be made out to be SO much more awesome. She just needs SOMETHING more to make her more evil; something LIKE a small scene where she feeds someone herself to her spiders, them dangling there watching with QUIET delight as they scream.
Originally Posted by KeinSklave
Originally Posted by Veilburner
Never understood that idea of women with short hair is somehow masculine. Why isn't the same idea applied to men with long hair?

We live in times also in which certain hairstyles have earned themself a bad reputation.
Because they were adopted by people of repulsive behaviour & ideologies.
People who become Meme's and warning signals for the masses.


I am a man so I cannot say for the other way around but long hair has a very female impression in our modern society.
And it will remain this way no matter what some very loud & influental people say or do.
It just is that way.
Furthermore and as countless other heterosexual males, I have come to like it and view it as strongly expressing the feminim beauty.
"Short hair" for Women is considered shoulder deep probably for most.

But this?
This what happened to Minthara?
It is just "punk" or "feminist" or whatever "renegade" like style.
Very bad.

With Drow: You know they are fanatics. But now?
Now Minthara looks like she is nothing but some sort of insufferable extremist.


The calm, calculating, manipulative Drow who uses her feminim charm has disappeared.
She looks like someone being aggressive & verbally offensive to people in her society, probably on "protests".
^
This is what the new hairstyle of her's is now making me expect.
Just terrible.


I've never associated men with long hair to be more feminine. I guess it depends on how long I guess. Is Geralt from The Witcher more feminine?

And I couldn't care less if women have short hair.
Minthara was always great. Not very nice, but great.

Minthara would say she doesn't care what some filthy, knuckle-dragging human scum thinks of her hair.

Her words!
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Minthara was always great. Not very nice, but great.

Minthara would say she doesn't care what some filthy, knuckle-dragging human scum thinks of her hair.

Her words!

lol.

Minthara is great. That's why I want more of her in the game. Ragzlin and Gut are just needed. Minthara is the brains annd wickedness.
Originally Posted by Veilburner
Never understood that idea of women with short hair is somehow masculine. Why isn't the same idea applied to men with long hair?

Yeah although it is not a prerequisite, it totally adds up if you also have plank chest, boney face and rusty voice altogether at once while wearing unisex clothing. Sorry, maybe it doesn't meet your equality standards but that's what's up for god knows how many thousands of years.

That's about real life projection on a fantasy world and many people hate it. I mean, drow culture in DnD is highly hedonistic and abusive. How good do you think the looks of both Minthara 1.0 and 2.0 reflect drow culture? Why is it so hard nowadays to make Minthara a sexy evil bitch? She comes from that kind of culture. It is a freeking fantasy world. People go into game worlds to get away from real world problems, not to be exposed the same bs there too...
Originally Posted by KeinSklave
Originally Posted by Veilburner
Never understood that idea of women with short hair is somehow masculine. Why isn't the same idea applied to men with long hair?

We live in times also in which certain hairstyles have earned themself a bad reputation.
Because they were adopted by people of repulsive behaviour & ideologies.
People who become Meme's and warning signals for the masses.


I am a man so I cannot say for the other way around but long hair has a very female impression in our modern society.
And it will remain this way no matter what some very loud & influental people say or do.
It just is that way.
Furthermore and as countless other heterosexual males, I have come to like it and view it as strongly expressing the feminim beauty.
"Short hair" for Women is considered shoulder deep probably for most.

But this?
This what happened to Minthara?
It is just "punk" or "feminist" or whatever "renegade" like style.
Very bad.

With Drow: You know they are fanatics. But now?
Now Minthara looks like she is nothing but some sort of insufferable extremist.


The calm, calculating, manipulative Drow who uses her feminim charm has disappeared.
She looks like someone being aggressive & verbally offensive to people in her society, probably on "protests".
^
This is what the new hairstyle of her's is now making me expect.
Just terrible.

This
I gotta say, the hooey said by Kein and Sinogy really does highlight the need for those "repulsive" feminists.

As a straight male, it is of course fairly depressing to have to say this, but women do not exist just to make our gigglesticks hard. And they are under no obligation to conform to our particular personal preferences. Frankly, and pardon me for being blunt, but I can think of no reason whatsoever that any female out there should ever care in the slightest how Kein and Sinogy defines femininity.

Regarding Minthara, so far it appears that she was formerly of House Baenre in Menzoberranzan. She does not appear to be particularly young either. That means she probably spent a century or more at the very top of the power pyramid in one of the most fanatically right-wing hellholes one can imagine, a place where the strong can do literally anything they want with the weak, and where the weak are not merely left to live or die as they can, but are in fact entirely without rights, purely the playthings of whomever cares to play with them.

Yes, Drow society is somewhat hedonistic, but the idea that a Drow of Minthara's former station would actually care a whole lot what others think of her appearance strikes me as almost unthinkable. If a daughter of the First House of Menzoberranzan wants to use you, she will tell you and you will perform. Whether you find her beautiful is of less than zero relevance, but while she has an interest, you will act as if she is the goddess of beauty. Or else. And that "or else" is several paragraphs of extremely nasty.

This is the Drow society that Minthara was raised in, the society she was raised to be a major power player in. And you think she should be a sexy bitch that gives even the tiniest little whiff of a fart what you think of her appearance? No, I think you're getting that power dynamic entirely wrong. She might not be a priestess of Lolth in Menzo anymore, but the arrogance and egomania of decades or even centuries does not go away easily. She's not trying to charm you into letting her be your bitch, she's graciously and generously allowing you the honor of being hers.

At least that's how I read her character.
AND THAT'S what I want more of. Minthara should be an absolute, pun intended, sinister witch. They don't portray that nearly enough. Regardless of appearance, she should send chills doen our spines in every scene, and she should be the absolute toughest boss of EA. She should be smart, and clever and utterly vicious in every way. I should feel like I'm talking to the Emperor from Star Wars when in her presence, scared to even take her on.

Instead, I'm like, "Meh. I could take her with my 4 level 4 characters. Easy."
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ah yes! Thanks for quoting what I suggested word for word. Nothing says evil villain like a good butt scratch cutscene. And yes, no one is as evil as Maleficent. Glad I brought her up too.

No wait! I DIDN'T.
I shall save this ... and i will post it every time someone will complain about me quoting everything i react on ...
Once i didnt and this is how it ends. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
AND THAT'S what I want more of. Minthara should be an absolute, pun intended, sinister witch. They don't portray that nearly enough. Regardless of appearance, she should send chills doen our spines in every scene, and she should be the absolute toughest boss of EA. She should be smart, and clever and utterly vicious in every way. I should feel like I'm talking to the Emperor from Star Wars when in her presence, scared to even take her on.

Instead, I'm like, "Meh. I could take her with my 4 level 4 characters. Easy."
Funny you mention it ...

Halsin should be an ARCHDRUID ...
Nature fury enbodied to single person, personificated wrath of Sylvanus hymself (who would probably be pissed off, that you just massacred whole grove of his followers)
Instead, we are like, "Meh. I could take him with my 4 level 4 characters. Easy."

Ethel should be an acutal witch (or Hag ... in my language that are synonyms)
Instead, we are like, "Meh. I could take her with my 4 level 4 characters. Easy."

Gith patrol should be perfectly prepared to any danger this world can provide ...
Instead, we are like, "Meh. I could take them with my 4 level 4 characters. Easy."

One would almost say that the fact that "we can take them" is there bcs game is usualy created so player can overcome anything (with enough effort) ... and have nothing to do with what that person should present.
Originally Posted by ArvGuy
I gotta say, the hooey said by Kein and Sinogy really does highlight the need for those "repulsive" feminists.

As a straight male, it is of course fairly depressing to have to say this, but women do not exist just to make our gigglesticks hard. And they are under no obligation to conform to our particular personal preferences. Frankly, and pardon me for being blunt, but I can think of no reason whatsoever that any female out there should ever care in the slightest how Kein and Sinogy defines femininity.

Regarding Minthara, so far it appears that she was formerly of House Baenre in Menzoberranzan. She does not appear to be particularly young either. That means she probably spent a century or more at the very top of the power pyramid in one of the most fanatically right-wing hellholes one can imagine, a place where the strong can do literally anything they want with the weak, and where the weak are not merely left to live or die as they can, but are in fact entirely without rights, purely the playthings of whomever cares to play with them.

Yes, Drow society is somewhat hedonistic, but the idea that a Drow of Minthara's former station would actually care a whole lot what others think of her appearance strikes me as almost unthinkable. If a daughter of the First House of Menzoberranzan wants to use you, she will tell you and you will perform. Whether you find her beautiful is of less than zero relevance, but while she has an interest, you will act as if she is the goddess of beauty. Or else. And that "or else" is several paragraphs of extremely nasty.

This is the Drow society that Minthara was raised in, the society she was raised to be a major power player in. And you think she should be a sexy bitch that gives even the tiniest little whiff of a fart what you think of her appearance? No, I think you're getting that power dynamic entirely wrong. She might not be a priestess of Lolth in Menzo anymore, but the arrogance and egomania of decades or even centuries does not go away easily. She's not trying to charm you into letting her be your bitch, she's graciously and generously allowing you the honor of being hers.

At least that's how I read her character.

It is not a person it is a fictional character. Hellooo. There is nothing wrong in it entertains people.
Apart from that, people deserve much more credit than you give. I mean, you are proly a liberal sjw type person but things you wrote about males see women like this bla bla are not different than Trump saying video games incite violence!
Believe me, most people are at least as smart as you and they can differentiate real world from fantasy world.

Going back to Minthara. You have zero evidence to interpret about why she looks modest af. Drow is not somewhat hedonistic, they are highly hedonistic. You can not just cherry pick things fit into your world view story and exclude other factors by saying somewhat. There is nothing somewhat about it. Drow is created like that by the creators of this universe. I am not making the lore! So, suck it up.
Minthara coming from a strong house has no reason to be ugly and modest. You want an interpretation? Prople on top of the pyramid have access to the most desirable of things and tyrants are not modest. Minthara coming from a gene pool that manifests itself in the form of her being that ugly is pretty unlikely and culture she comes from make her look that modest even more unlikely. Capeesh?
Originally Posted by Veilburner
I've never associated men with long hair to be more feminine. I guess it depends on how long I guess. Is Geralt from The Witcher more feminine?

And I couldn't care less if women have short hair.


With Men the hairstyle is not important but more the overall bone structure of the face & being possibly overweight.
Men look either like born winners or god was once more an a°°hole and decided this one is to amuse the masses with his goofy appearance.
A "handsome" man will look good with almost any hairstyle.
An unattractive man will look sh°° regardless what he does.


I wondered for some time why long hair has such a strong impact on females?
Must have to do with simple biological facts like vertility & the power of youth.

Men are instinctually programmed to seek not a beautiful mate to be with for life, but a suitable target simply for reproduction purposes, to ensure the survival of the species.
Long, thick & healthy hair is a sign of youth and a vibrant life force able to "produce" lots of children.
The older Humans become the less amazing, more pitiful and thin will their hair look.
Or at least the hair of the majority of people - a few natural born winners as the exception even until the day they check out.


Men are supposed to find "a vertile healthy female body" attractive.
This body type seems to have certain characteristics & shapes we all know as a classic example of beauty.
Nice curves, toned body, bodyfat proportions in all the right places ( the same as for what jiggles and what not ) and long, healthy looking hair.

Everything else will be automatically seen as inferior or less attractive.


Minthara as she looks now, looks less attractive.
She looks weak, "sick", frail, undernourished, about to get worse.
A man in hospital wear supporting himself on a stilt does not look strong either even if he has muscles. ^^
Our villainous EA Drow could look worse but she looks like she is suffering under some kind of condition right now.
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ah yes! Thanks for quoting what I suggested word for word. Nothing says evil villain like a good butt scratch cutscene. And yes, no one is as evil as Maleficent. Glad I brought her up too.

No wait! I DIDN'T.
I shall save this ... and i will post it every time someone will complain about me quoting everything i react on ...
Once i didnt and this is how it ends. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
AND THAT'S what I want more of. Minthara should be an absolute, pun intended, sinister witch. They don't portray that nearly enough. Regardless of appearance, she should send chills doen our spines in every scene, and she should be the absolute toughest boss of EA. She should be smart, and clever and utterly vicious in every way. I should feel like I'm talking to the Emperor from Star Wars when in her presence, scared to even take her on.

Instead, I'm like, "Meh. I could take her with my 4 level 4 characters. Easy."
Funny you mention it ...

Halsin should be an ARCHDRUID ...
Nature fury enbodied to single person, personificated wrath of Sylvanus hymself (who would probably be pissed off, that you just massacred whole grove of his followers)
Instead, we are like, "Meh. I could take him with my 4 level 4 characters. Easy."

Ethel should be an acutal witch (or Hag ... in my language that are synonyms)
Instead, we are like, "Meh. I could take her with my 4 level 4 characters. Easy."

Gith patrol should be perfectly prepared to any danger this world can provide ...
Instead, we are like, "Meh. I could take them with my 4 level 4 characters. Easy."

One would almost say that the fact that "we can take them" is there bcs game is usualy created so player can overcome anything (with enough effort) ... and have nothing to do with what that person should present.

Ah yes! You have once again proven my point about D&D 5e monsters in this game. Larian is using characters and monsters that should be WAY tougher, and they are dumbing them down. ALL of them. I 100% agree.
Originally Posted by sinogy

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
I gotta say, the hooey said by Kein and Sinogy really does highlight the need for those "repulsive" feminists.

As a straight male, it is of course fairly depressing to have to say this, but women do not exist just to make our gigglesticks hard. And they are under no obligation to conform to our particular personal preferences. Frankly, and pardon me for being blunt, but I can think of no reason whatsoever that any female out there should ever care in the slightest how Kein and Sinogy defines femininity.

Regarding Minthara, so far it appears that she was formerly of House Baenre in Menzoberranzan. She does not appear to be particularly young either. That means she probably spent a century or more at the very top of the power pyramid in one of the most fanatically right-wing hellholes one can imagine, a place where the strong can do literally anything they want with the weak, and where the weak are not merely left to live or die as they can, but are in fact entirely without rights, purely the playthings of whomever cares to play with them.

Yes, Drow society is somewhat hedonistic, but the idea that a Drow of Minthara's former station would actually care a whole lot what others think of her appearance strikes me as almost unthinkable. If a daughter of the First House of Menzoberranzan wants to use you, she will tell you and you will perform. Whether you find her beautiful is of less than zero relevance, but while she has an interest, you will act as if she is the goddess of beauty. Or else. And that "or else" is several paragraphs of extremely nasty.

This is the Drow society that Minthara was raised in, the society she was raised to be a major power player in. And you think she should be a sexy bitch that gives even the tiniest little whiff of a fart what you think of her appearance? No, I think you're getting that power dynamic entirely wrong. She might not be a priestess of Lolth in Menzo anymore, but the arrogance and egomania of decades or even centuries does not go away easily. She's not trying to charm you into letting her be your bitch, she's graciously and generously allowing you the honor of being hers.

At least that's how I read her character.

It is not a person it is a fictional character. Hellooo. There is nothing wrong in it entertains people.
Apart from that, people deserve much more credit than you give. I mean, you are proly a liberal sjw type person but things you wrote about males see women like this bla bla are not different than Trump saying video games incite violence!
Believe me, most people are at least as smart as you and they can differentiate real world from fantasy world.

Going back to Minthara. You have zero evidence to interpret about why she looks modest af. Drow is not somewhat hedonistic, they are highly hedonistic. You can not just cherry pick things fit into your world view story and exclude other factors by saying somewhat. There is nothing somewhat about it. Drow is created like that by the creators of this universe. I am not making the lore! So, suck it up.
Minthara coming from a strong house has no reason to be ugly and modest. You want an interpretation? Prople on top of the pyramid have access to the most desirable of things and tyrants are not modest. Minthara coming from a gene pool that manifests itself in the form of her being that ugly is pretty unlikely and culture she comes from make her look that modest even more unlikely. Capeesh?
See what I mean? So much hooey. No, mate, you clearly cannot differentiate your personal fantasies from reality, because you're blabbering on about how other people must be "liberal sjw" types because they're okay with a murderous psychopath having short hair rather than being a sexy doll with long hair that stands around in a gobbo camp in heels, underwear, and full make-up. Because she's only a part time warlord and her real calling is obviously as a callgirl. Do I even need to put into words how ridiculous that idea is? By the way, that "liberal sjw" thing is quite revealing of your personal beliefs, isn't it?

"But it entertains people, so it is okay", no, not really. The game has a setting and characters should fit that setting. Drow daughters that were groomed from childhood to lord over everybody else and keep all the lessers in line should not be pretty girls that just want to be someone's plaything. It just does not fit.

And of course I can use the word "somewhat" whenever I feel like it. It's how people speak, mate. Get out of your basement and smell the world a bit, you'll realise it soon enough. For instance, your idea that Drow nobility are bred to be pretty is "somewhat" off the mark. Matron mothers are not chosen through a beauty pageant and while their male companions might be chosen in no small part based on who appeals to the matron at the time, there's no guarantee that it will produce offspring. Do the math. First priority is having children, second priority is children of sound mind. If they're pretty then that's a bonus.

Lastly, yes, the tyrants in Drow society have access to anything they want, more or less. So why do you think a power player in that society would want something as shallow and pathetic as "to be pretty"? What they want is power. More power. Then even more power. Ambition is everything. Looking weak or unhealthy is bad, but beyond that it would be a weakness if a Drow noble started feeling vulnerable about her appearance. The other sharks will smell that from a mile away and prey upon it. It would be a no go.

You mentioned Trump. He's a pretty good example, actually. Do you see Trump trying to be "pretty"? Is he often showcasing his "masculine charm"? No, he isn't. He is rich and powerful enough that if he calls himself pretty and good-looking and brags about his wrists and how youthful he is then who will contradict him to his face? Power dynamics at work. However, he does seem a bit prone to flattery and he seems "somewhat" vulnerable about some of his age-related attributes, like his thinning hair and his bad complexion. Do you think such vulnerabilities would be particularly helpful in a place like Menzo?
I think this is one of those conversations that does best when no one takes it particularly seriously.

Either by ignoring it completely and let them shout their doctrine into the indifferent sky, or just gently making fun of the posters.

One thing I am sure of, if Minthara heard OP criticize her hair she would skin you living and fashion your face into a new pair of underwear.
Originally Posted by KeinSklave

Originally Posted by Veilburner
I've never associated men with long hair to be more feminine. I guess it depends on how long I guess. Is Geralt from The Witcher more feminine?

And I couldn't care less if women have short hair.


With Men the hairstyle is not important but more the overall bone structure of the face & being possibly overweight.
Men look either like born winners or god was once more an a°°hole and decided this one is to amuse the masses with his goofy appearance.
A "handsome" man will look good with almost any hairstyle.
An unattractive man will look sh°° regardless what he does.


I wondered for some time why long hair has such a strong impact on females?
Must have to do with simple biological facts like vertility & the power of youth.

Men are instinctually programmed to seek not a beautiful mate to be with for life, but a suitable target simply for reproduction purposes, to ensure the survival of the species.
Long, thick & healthy hair is a sign of youth and a vibrant life force able to "produce" lots of children.
The older Humans become the less amazing, more pitiful and thin will their hair look.
Or at least the hair of the majority of people - a few natural born winners as the exception even until the day they check out.


Men are supposed to find "a vertile healthy female body" attractive.
This body type seems to have certain characteristics & shapes we all know as a classic example of beauty.
Nice curves, toned body, bodyfat proportions in all the right places ( the same as for what jiggles and what not ) and long, healthy looking hair.

Everything else will be automatically seen as inferior or less attractive.


Minthara as she looks now, looks less attractive.
She looks weak, "sick", frail, undernourished, about to get worse.
A man in hospital wear supporting himself on a stilt does not look strong either even if he has muscles. ^^
Our villainous EA Drow could look worse but she looks like she is suffering under some kind of condition right now.
There you go again, equating your personal preferences with that of all men. Being a heterosexual male, something I gather from your previous comment is very important to you, I disagree quite a bit. What you're entering into is the usual pocket-philosophy nitwittery of alpha and beta, winners and losers, the same usual platitudal noise that you get from any half-decent "this is how you get laid" guide for basement people. Hooey.

Long hair does not mean vibrant, thick, lush hair. Short hair does not mean frail hair. On top of that, you're going head first into an enormous false dichotomy. That is to say, beauty is not a binary quality and the dramatic majority of people on the planet are neither beautiful nor ugly, but somewhere in the middle. On top of that, standards for what constitutes beautiful are not universally the same and have not universally been the same through time. A pretty woman 200 years ago looked very different from what we consider pretty now.

Currently we have a weird standard where completely unnatural proportions in women is apparently beautiful. To some, anyway. A weight of 100 lbs or less, enormous front pads made of plastic, and a waist you can reach around with your hands. And a butt so big that bringing a chair is optional. This is cartoon nonsense. It has nothing to do with looking youthful or healthy. It's just your intense desire for your personal fantasy to be "rational" that runs away from you. It isn't rational at all, it's just what you've been taught is pretty by your social environment, and it makes no more inherent sense than any other beauty standard.

Also, all that commentary about Minthara as if she was a 2021 woman rather than an Elf living in a medieval setting... Hooey.
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I think this is one of those conversations that does best when no one takes it particularly seriously.

Either by ignoring it completely and let them shout their doctrine into the indifferent sky, or just gently making fun of the posters.

One thing I am sure of, if Minthara heard OP criticize her hair she would skin you living and fashion your face into a new pair of underwear.
Yeah, you're probably right. But I feel bad about people reading some of that rubbish and thinking "oh my goodness, these people are all like that", so some counter-yelling does unfotunately seem to be required.

And if it also leads to some understanding of just how brutal and conniving and unfathomably harsh and viscious and predatorious life happens to be in Menzoberranzan then that doesn't hurt either. But yeah, I think I've made my point here.

Currently the big flaw in Minthara is that her voice sounds a bit on the older side and her looks is a bit on the older side, but she's only a fairly low level cleric. It feels odd, though of course she can't have been a priestess of the Absolute for all that long just yet. It is not inconceivable that the tadpole and brainwashing gave her a hard reset. Aside from that, I like her. Well, I hate her guts, obviously, but that's how it should be, her being a an extremely evil fanatic Absolute-worshipping Drow and all.
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I think this is one of those conversations that does best when no one takes it particularly seriously.

Either by ignoring it completely and let them shout their doctrine into the indifferent sky, or just gently making fun of the posters.

One thing I am sure of, if Minthara heard OP criticize her hair she would skin you living and fashion your face into a new pair of underwear.

I feel like saying, "Preach it!" lol.

The part about her making someone's face into new underwear... priceless. So Drowish. I want Minthara to say something like that now in the game. Like whenever you fight her she taunts you by saying she's going to skin you alive and fashion your face into a new pair of underwear. THAT would be awesome!
Originally Posted by ArvGuy
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I think this is one of those conversations that does best when no one takes it particularly seriously.

Either by ignoring it completely and let them shout their doctrine into the indifferent sky, or just gently making fun of the posters.

One thing I am sure of, if Minthara heard OP criticize her hair she would skin you living and fashion your face into a new pair of underwear.
Yeah, you're probably right. But I feel bad about people reading some of that rubbish and thinking "oh my goodness, these people are all like that", so some counter-yelling does unfotunately seem to be required.

And if it also leads to some understanding of just how brutal and conniving and unfathomably harsh and viscious and predatorious life happens to be in Menzoberranzan then that doesn't hurt either. But yeah, I think I've made my point here.

Currently the big flaw in Minthara is that her voice sounds a bit on the older side and her looks is a bit on the older side, but she's only a fairly low level cleric. It feels odd, though of course she can't have been a priestess of the Absolute for all that long just yet. It is not inconceivable that the tadpole and brainwashing gave her a hard reset. Aside from that, I like her. Well, I hate her guts, obviously, but that's how it should be, her being a an extremely evil fanatic Absolute-worshipping Drow and all.

I do think a hard reset is what they're going for with anyone who has a brain bug. Take Karlach. She's supposed to be a demon slayer, but there she is injured almost fatally by a few cultists of Zariel. Gale should be some super powered wizard. Wyll is supposed to be a champion of Baldurs Gate.

So whatever the tadpoles did, it seems they reset their hosts.
Originally Posted by ArvGuy
At least that's how I read her character.
Quite an interesting read. From my personal view all I can say in patch 5 Minthara looks a bit less dirpy, which I think is right.

As to the whole interesting post you have written… it might all be correct, but to me she didn’t have much more presence then “one of three goblin bosses”, with whom you can apparently sleep. Perhaps, I just didn’t explore her path deeply enough, but characterisation for her (and any other characters) just isn’t that strong.

I am not sure how much it can be improved - it is not Bioware RPG, so doing lengthy well structured sequence, like BG2 underdark is out of the question. I knew what BG2 drows were all about. In BG3 it’s just set of situations to mess with. There might be thought put into those characters, and lore books laying around, but we just don’t see the characters in action enough, to make a lasting impression. Nor, more importantly, do we get to interact with them in an interesting way. RPGs in particular have a unique ability explore characters and cultures through interaction. All I got from her was “here is an evil path for you. Kill the good guys for an unknown reason”.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Ah yes! You have once again proven my point about D&D 5e monsters in this game. Larian is using characters and monsters that should be WAY tougher, and they are dumbing them down. ALL of them. I 100% agree.
Exactly ... Larian does ...
Just Larian ofcourse, i never seen it anywhere else ... excuse me for a second, i just go one-shot Lich King, and maybe Deathwing. laugh
Originally Posted by ArvGuy
Originally Posted by sinogy

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
I gotta say, the hooey said by Kein and Sinogy really does highlight the need for those "repulsive" feminists.

As a straight male, it is of course fairly depressing to have to say this, but women do not exist just to make our gigglesticks hard. And they are under no obligation to conform to our particular personal preferences. Frankly, and pardon me for being blunt, but I can think of no reason whatsoever that any female out there should ever care in the slightest how Kein and Sinogy defines femininity.

Regarding Minthara, so far it appears that she was formerly of House Baenre in Menzoberranzan. She does not appear to be particularly young either. That means she probably spent a century or more at the very top of the power pyramid in one of the most fanatically right-wing hellholes one can imagine, a place where the strong can do literally anything they want with the weak, and where the weak are not merely left to live or die as they can, but are in fact entirely without rights, purely the playthings of whomever cares to play with them.

Yes, Drow society is somewhat hedonistic, but the idea that a Drow of Minthara's former station would actually care a whole lot what others think of her appearance strikes me as almost unthinkable. If a daughter of the First House of Menzoberranzan wants to use you, she will tell you and you will perform. Whether you find her beautiful is of less than zero relevance, but while she has an interest, you will act as if she is the goddess of beauty. Or else. And that "or else" is several paragraphs of extremely nasty.

This is the Drow society that Minthara was raised in, the society she was raised to be a major power player in. And you think she should be a sexy bitch that gives even the tiniest little whiff of a fart what you think of her appearance? No, I think you're getting that power dynamic entirely wrong. She might not be a priestess of Lolth in Menzo anymore, but the arrogance and egomania of decades or even centuries does not go away easily. She's not trying to charm you into letting her be your bitch, she's graciously and generously allowing you the honor of being hers.

At least that's how I read her character.

It is not a person it is a fictional character. Hellooo. There is nothing wrong in it entertains people.
Apart from that, people deserve much more credit than you give. I mean, you are proly a liberal sjw type person but things you wrote about males see women like this bla bla are not different than Trump saying video games incite violence!
Believe me, most people are at least as smart as you and they can differentiate real world from fantasy world.

Going back to Minthara. You have zero evidence to interpret about why she looks modest af. Drow is not somewhat hedonistic, they are highly hedonistic. You can not just cherry pick things fit into your world view story and exclude other factors by saying somewhat. There is nothing somewhat about it. Drow is created like that by the creators of this universe. I am not making the lore! So, suck it up.
Minthara coming from a strong house has no reason to be ugly and modest. You want an interpretation? Prople on top of the pyramid have access to the most desirable of things and tyrants are not modest. Minthara coming from a gene pool that manifests itself in the form of her being that ugly is pretty unlikely and culture she comes from make her look that modest even more unlikely. Capeesh?
See what I mean? So much hooey. No, mate, you clearly cannot differentiate your personal fantasies from reality, because you're blabbering on about how other people must be "liberal sjw" types because they're okay with a murderous psychopath having short hair rather than being a sexy doll with long hair that stands around in a gobbo camp in heels, underwear, and full make-up. Because she's only a part time warlord and her real calling is obviously as a callgirl. Do I even need to put into words how ridiculous that idea is? By the way, that "liberal sjw" thing is quite revealing of your personal beliefs, isn't it?

"But it entertains people, so it is okay", no, not really. The game has a setting and characters should fit that setting. Drow daughters that were groomed from childhood to lord over everybody else and keep all the lessers in line should not be pretty girls that just want to be someone's plaything. It just does not fit.

And of course I can use the word "somewhat" whenever I feel like it. It's how people speak, mate. Get out of your basement and smell the world a bit, you'll realise it soon enough. For instance, your idea that Drow nobility are bred to be pretty is "somewhat" off the mark. Matron mothers are not chosen through a beauty pageant and while their male companions might be chosen in no small part based on who appeals to the matron at the time, there's no guarantee that it will produce offspring. Do the math. First priority is having children, second priority is children of sound mind. If they're pretty then that's a bonus.

Lastly, yes, the tyrants in Drow society have access to anything they want, more or less. So why do you think a power player in that society would want something as shallow and pathetic as "to be pretty"? What they want is power. More power. Then even more power. Ambition is everything. Looking weak or unhealthy is bad, but beyond that it would be a weakness if a Drow noble started feeling vulnerable about her appearance. The other sharks will smell that from a mile away and prey upon it. It would be a no go.

You mentioned Trump. He's a pretty good example, actually. Do you see Trump trying to be "pretty"? Is he often showcasing his "masculine charm"? No, he isn't. He is rich and powerful enough that if he calls himself pretty and good-looking and brags about his wrists and how youthful he is then who will contradict him to his face? Power dynamics at work. However, he does seem a bit prone to flattery and he seems "somewhat" vulnerable about some of his age-related attributes, like his thinning hair and his bad complexion. Do you think such vulnerabilities would be particularly helpful in a place like Menzo?

No I don't see what you mean. I don't think even you see what you mean. You are just confused.

Being pretty and being attractive are not necessarily synonyms but I am not surprised you can't see the difference. Sadly, it seems things are either within your political narrative or outside of it regardless of context.

I don't give a flying fuck about if Minthara's look fits my aesthetic standards. The problem is her look does not reflect Drow standards especially that of one who is high in their cast system. Power means nothing if you have to use it whenever you need people to see what it means that's why powerful people and groups show their capabilities through visual representations unless they have a reason to hide it. Otherwise, they would just jump from one unnecessary conflict to another and thinking "all I want is power why would I care about how people see me" is just naive. Naivety has no place in drow culture.

Sorry I don't make the rules and if something is inconsistent within the context it belongs then that means it is inconsistent within the context it belongs whether it fits your real world political view or not!
My personal hope for the game is that the writers create their characters, design their appearance, and integrate their stories without listening to any input from the players. People clamoring for adding Halsin to the party because he is a big hawt druid and demanding Minthara be hotter because she titillated some of subset of players with a nip shot is just ridiculous.

The same players who preach and whine about female characters needing to hotter and angrily posting about game devs bowing to the “woke mob” see no issue with demanding those same devs bow to their demands for hotter women? Seriously? I call hypocrisy. I find both points of view to be nothing more than a demand for writers to ignore their own creative impulses to please some immature howlers who think they know best “how it ought to be”.

Want some hawt animated chars to drool over? Write a fanfic or create a mod. But demanding the creators of a game change a story or a char to please you? It is beyond childish and entitled.

I saw how Bioware totally destroyed the lore of the templar order to make Cullen romance-able. I personally do not want to see Larian make side chars like Minthara and Halsin more important than they are to please a subset of their playerbase. It will be nothing but hackneyed writing if they do it, and it will show.
Sometimes it blows my mind how serious we fans can take stuff.

Let's take a step back. Think real life culture. In the 1950s, a woman would never be caught dead in pants. All women were to wear skirts to their ankles and have longer hair. Now, most women DONT wear long skirts and many DONT like long hair.

Who's to say all Drow women everywhere throughout all time must look a certain way?
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Sometimes it blows my mind how serious we fans can take stuff.

Let's take a step back. Think real life culture. In the 1950s, a woman would never be caught dead in pants. All women were to wear skirts to their ankles and have longer hair. Now, most women DONT wear long skirts and many DONT like long hair.

Who's to say all Drow women everywhere throughout all time must look a certain way?


Established game lore uses clear stereotypes. Stereotypes are useful for a consistent imaginary world.

Real world is chaotic and ever changing. If you try to overlap real world and game world all the time all you are left with will be confusion because everything becomes mutable at any given time.

There are ways to make changes in lore but it requires more effort than " hey I make changes now because real life is changeable" to stay consistent.
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Sometimes it blows my mind how serious we fans can take stuff.

Let's take a step back. Think real life culture. In the 1950s, a woman would never be caught dead in pants. All women were to wear skirts to their ankles and have longer hair. Now, most women DONT wear long skirts and many DONT like long hair.

Who's to say all Drow women everywhere throughout all time must look a certain way?


Established game lore uses clear stereotypes. Stereotypes are useful for a consistent imaginary world.

Real world is chaotic and ever changing. If you try to overlap real world and game world all the time all you are left with will be confusion because everything becomes mutable at any given time.

There are ways to make changes in lore but it requires more effort than " hey I make changes now because real life is changeable" to stay consistent.

that's a weird way to say that you want girls to look like girls.

Agreed to the post you quoted though, it's insane to me just how much angst is involved in how women are portrayed. Oddly enough, more angst seems to come from men than women lol
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Sometimes it blows my mind how serious we fans can take stuff.

Let's take a step back. Think real life culture. In the 1950s, a woman would never be caught dead in pants. All women were to wear skirts to their ankles and have longer hair. Now, most women DONT wear long skirts and many DONT like long hair.

Who's to say all Drow women everywhere throughout all time must look a certain way?


Established game lore uses clear stereotypes. Stereotypes are useful for a consistent imaginary world.

Real world is chaotic and ever changing. If you try to overlap real world and game world all the time all you are left with will be confusion because everything becomes mutable at any given time.

There are ways to make changes in lore but it requires more effort than " hey I make changes now because real life is changeable" to stay consistent.

Agreed. Established game lore is good. However, it's been 100 years in Faerun since the Time of Troubles. A LOT has changed. Establishing some new lore makes sense. My point is that customs change a lot in jist 50 years. It's conceivable that something as simple as hairstyles may have also changed for Drow in over 100 years.

Also, not EVERY place has to be the same. Drow in Menzo may be different from Drow in other places. I think it makes the world more realistic and immersive if stereotypes aren't always followed.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Sometimes it blows my mind how serious we fans can take stuff.

Let's take a step back. Think real life culture. In the 1950s, a woman would never be caught dead in pants. All women were to wear skirts to their ankles and have longer hair. Now, most women DONT wear long skirts and many DONT like long hair.

Who's to say all Drow women everywhere throughout all time must look a certain way?


Established game lore uses clear stereotypes. Stereotypes are useful for a consistent imaginary world.

Real world is chaotic and ever changing. If you try to overlap real world and game world all the time all you are left with will be confusion because everything becomes mutable at any given time.

There are ways to make changes in lore but it requires more effort than " hey I make changes now because real life is changeable" to stay consistent.

Agreed. Established game lore is good. However, it's been 100 years in Faerun since the Time of Troubles. A LOT has changed. Establishing some new lore makes sense. My point is that customs change a lot in jist 50 years. It's conceivable that something as simple as hairstyles may have also changed for Drow in over 100 years.

Also, not EVERY place has to be the same. Drow in Menzo may be different from Drow in other places. I think it makes the world more realistic and immersive if stereotypes aren't always followed.

Sure, as long as you create a timeline where the narrative tells a story involving also these kind of cultural changes, such as a book approved by WoTC etc. etc. What I mean is if you wanna make changes in official source then at least make it with a background narration. Otherwise, the changes you make become baseless. I mean saying "hey drows look like this now and it is because we like to make it and we don't make a story behind our choice to fit in the game narrative" means some changes you make in the game universe needs more work. I mean it is just lazy writing expecting the audience to accept whatever you make without building a narrative network of reasoning.
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Sometimes it blows my mind how serious we fans can take stuff.

Let's take a step back. Think real life culture. In the 1950s, a woman would never be caught dead in pants. All women were to wear skirts to their ankles and have longer hair. Now, most women DONT wear long skirts and many DONT like long hair.

Who's to say all Drow women everywhere throughout all time must look a certain way?


Established game lore uses clear stereotypes. Stereotypes are useful for a consistent imaginary world.

Real world is chaotic and ever changing. If you try to overlap real world and game world all the time all you are left with will be confusion because everything becomes mutable at any given time.

There are ways to make changes in lore but it requires more effort than " hey I make changes now because real life is changeable" to stay consistent.

that's a weird way to say that you want girls to look like girls.

Agreed to the post you quoted though, it's insane to me just how much angst is involved in how women are portrayed. Oddly enough, more angst seems to come from men than women lol

Yeah, it takes one to know one. You may like to express yourself with hidden motives behind but what I say is what I mean.
"In many ways, the drow resembled other elves or eladrin.Their bodies were wiry and athletic, while their faces were chiseled and attractive, though they were shorter and thinner than other elven sub-races.- Due to a process of selective breeding that lasted for several generations,the drow (especially nobles) looked attractive even in comparison to other elven subraces. Though their alluring appearance could be used for seduction, it was more often utilized to instill fear. According to the goblin Nojheim, the beauty standards of the surface races made them prone to turn a blind eye to the deeds of the drow, showing them greater leniency and acceptance." quote Reynolds, Forbeck, Jacobs, Boyd (March 2003). Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast)

The official description of drows are not aligned with Larian's choise of visual representation for Minthara. You may like it, you may be happy because it reflects your real world political stance for whatever reason but all that doesn't change the fact that Minthara's look does not fit for the official descriptions that's why I say Larian's design choice on this character is not consistent with the lore. Minthara looks so modest and so drab in both v1.0 and 2.0 that even goblins look more attractive compared to her. She is too dull to be a drow.
Again, it is not about my personal choices. I haven't even spent time trying to talk to her in my play times. I just outright kill her to take the loot. I am not interested in evil playthrough. But Larian saying "hey look she is a drow" is total immersion breaker because the visual representation is not consistent with the lore. It means Larian's motives behind the design choices are not always about staying true to DnD universe and it bothers me. I don't like seeing video games being a tool for political signaling especially high fantasy ones but hey if they wanna turn their product into that then I guess they will do it. I have to suck it up but it doesn't mean I have to like it.
Originally Posted by sinogy
Their bodies were wiry and athletic, while their faces were chiseled and attractive

these are the only actual physical attributes in that quote and Minthara arguably fits all of those.

I'm not the one pushing their own idea of representation on a race, you are. You want her to fit YOUR idea of what is attractive, and i get it, but don't pretend you're just following the lore.

edit: Also, read the 5e pbe page 24. Not a single thing about skimpy clothing or instagram looks. Nothing at all actually about them being attractive.
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by sinogy
Their bodies were wiry and athletic, while their faces were chiseled and attractive

these are the only actual physical attributes in that quote and Minthara arguably fits all of those.

I'm not the one pushing their own idea of representation on a race, you are. You want her to fit YOUR idea of what is attractive, and i get it, but don't pretend you're just following the lore.

edit: Also, read the 5e pbe page 24. Not a single thing about skimpy clothing or instagram looks. Nothing at all actually about them being attractive.

You haven't even heard of Races of Faerûn up until my previous post and all of a sudden you become some sort of expert about its subtext, huh? Wow dude, it maybe too much confidence, I am telling you!

No she doesn't arguably fit all of those. Can you please be more elaborate and honest about what is physically attractive about her especially with the latest changes? Do you really think her face could be the product of selective breeding lasted for generations to produce attractive forms to seduce not only her kind but also other kinds especially surface races?
Plus, attractiveness is not all about physical attributes, it is also about representation (outfit, manner, posture etc. etc.). Her outfit is dull and modest compared to even that of goblins ffs unless it was designed for very specific people with very specific fetish!
How is she gonna seduce or intimidate surface races with her appearance? With her short hair being just short?

Minthara- " Heeey look at my short hair, it is not even fashioned short, it is just short short. and despair. Look at my ugly face which has no attractive attributes unless you have a very specific fetish and fall victim to my seduction. Look at my outfit which is purely designed for utility purposes just like that of a peasant without any visually spectacular and attractive decorations - again, unless you have a very specific fetish- and despair or fall victim to my seduction...your choice"

Huh? Is that it? Do you have an alternative interpretation to fit her into established lore? Try and see how silly it will become.

Things don't happen in midair without any base just because you say "maybeee"

Apart from all those, you labeling me for being smth I am not is becoming harassment.
Posted By: Tara Grimface Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 02:08 AM
For those of us who became endeared to the Minthara that was used through 4 patches it may very well be that our only hope will be modded appearances to provide more variety; I no longer feel comfortable romancing this new Minthara; because I still associate Minthara with her medium length hair from the first 4 patchs and I don't at all like her very loud silver eyeshadow; why even give her eyeshadow if the purpose of the patch 5 appearance change is to express a more masculine Minthara?; no character in Baldur's Gate 3 has eyeshadow that looks this bad in my opinion; with my reshade and lighting her eyeshadow makes the area around her eyes shine like disco balls; it doesn't suit her armored appearance or her haircut and I find it strange that the developers thought this makeup choice was appealing; but this is a permanent change it would seem; and I have a feeling that this may be her final major iteration besides her armor.

I've been wondering if her face has been changed other than hair and makeup alterations and coloring; it's honestly hard for me to tell; but it does seem like it if anyone knows please point it out to me; I've been scrutinizing images for a long time now trying to contrast the differences and I would like to list them. I should have taken more screenshots of her previous appearance when I had the chance; maybe I can revert the game with an earlier patch using steamdb.info; it would be nice if I could see exactly what changed.

I've done modding for only a few games mostly Skyrim and Fallout; I've never modded a Larian game; but I'm going to mod BG3 because basically Minthara is the only reason I was interested in this game, I paid 60 dollars for early access and lo and behold patch 5 comes around and they chop her hair off and give her some weird ill-fitting silver eyeshadow, they made her face sharper I think; though I'm going to do some image comparisons to figure that out.

I do wonder if Minthara's patch 5 appearance is more true to Larian's original concept art or if her pre patch 5 appearance is truer to the concept art; if anyone has any information regarding her concept art please share it; it would be useful to know especially to those of us who would like to mod her.

So in conclusion my fellow members of the Minthara fan club who prefer the original pre patch 5 Minthara; we're going to have to mod her and provide the community with appearance options for our favorite Drow villainess because I don't think the Larian devs are going to regard our opinion on this matter; but we the gamers can make her great again and even better than she was before; at least eventually; considering Gale's, Shadowheart's and Wyll's appearances have had mod overhauls; that said they are main characters and not npcs; so there may be some sort of differences in modding an npc character instead; I'm going to have to do some research on this.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 03:01 AM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by sinogy
Their bodies were wiry and athletic, while their faces were chiseled and attractive

these are the only actual physical attributes in that quote and Minthara arguably fits all of those.

I'm not the one pushing their own idea of representation on a race, you are. You want her to fit YOUR idea of what is attractive, and i get it, but don't pretend you're just following the lore.

edit: Also, read the 5e pbe page 24. Not a single thing about skimpy clothing or instagram looks. Nothing at all actually about them being attractive.

You haven't even heard of Races of Faerûn up until my previous post and all of a sudden you become some sort of expert about its subtext, huh? Wow dude, it maybe too much confidence, I am telling you!

No she doesn't arguably fit all of those. Can you please be more elaborate and honest about what is physically attractive about her especially with the latest changes? Do you really think her face could be the product of selective breeding lasted for generations to produce attractive forms to seduce not only her kind but also other kinds especially surface races?
Plus, attractiveness is not all about physical attributes, it is also about representation (outfit, manner, posture etc. etc.). Her outfit is dull and modest compared to even that of goblins ffs unless it was designed for very specific people with very specific fetish!
How is she gonna seduce or intimidate surface races with her appearance? With her short hair being just short?

Minthara- " Heeey look at my short hair, it is not even fashioned short, it is just short short. and despair. Look at my ugly face which has no attractive attributes unless you have a very specific fetish and fall victim to my seduction. Look at my outfit which is purely designed for utility purposes just like that of a peasant without any visually spectacular and attractive decorations - again, unless you have a very specific fetish- and despair or fall victim to my seduction...your choice"

Huh? Is that it? Do you have an alternative interpretation to fit her into established lore? Try and see how silly it will become.

Things don't happen in midair without any base just because you say "maybeee"

Apart from all those, you labeling me for being smth I am not is becoming harassment.

I'm not sure why personal attacks had to enter the picture, but that's my cue to back out. Take the last word.
Posted By: Pupito Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 05:29 AM
Originally Posted by sinogy
You haven't even heard of Races of Faerûn up until my previous post and all of a sudden you become some sort of expert about its subtext, huh? Wow dude, it maybe too much confidence, I am telling you!

No she doesn't arguably fit all of those. Can you please be more elaborate and honest about what is physically attractive about her especially with the latest changes? Do you really think her face could be the product of selective breeding lasted for generations to produce attractive forms to seduce not only her kind but also other kinds especially surface races?
Plus, attractiveness is not all about physical attributes, it is also about representation (outfit, manner, posture etc. etc.). Her outfit is dull and modest compared to even that of goblins ffs unless it was designed for very specific people with very specific fetish!
How is she gonna seduce or intimidate surface races with her appearance? With her short hair being just short?

Minthara- " Heeey look at my short hair, it is not even fashioned short, it is just short short. and despair. Look at my ugly face which has no attractive attributes unless you have a very specific fetish and fall victim to my seduction. Look at my outfit which is purely designed for utility purposes just like that of a peasant without any visually spectacular and attractive decorations - again, unless you have a very specific fetish- and despair or fall victim to my seduction...your choice"

Huh? Is that it? Do you have an alternative interpretation to fit her into established lore? Try and see how silly it will become.

Things don't happen in midair without any base just because you say "maybeee"

Apart from all those, you labeling me for being smth I am not is becoming harassment.

Um, what are you on about? Since when were drow into seducing the surface races? You do realize that most, if not all, of the surface races basically regard them as evil or at least not to be trusted, and the drow are all about just killing or enslaving the surface races, right? Nothing about them or their culture, goddess, society, or lore, leans into them being seductresses. They aren't succubi. They are about destroying or enslaving the surface races, so of course she would be wearing actual armor, not a chainmail bikini. I don't find her quite as attractive as she was before either, but that's fine, not every female character has to be a supermodel or something, and once again the drow aren't about selective breeding and seduction but war and conquest so being traditionally attractive doesn't really matter to them, much less to humans and other surface races.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 06:07 AM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Sure, as long as you create a timeline where the narrative tells a story involving also these kind of cultural changes, such as a book approved by WoTC etc. etc. What I mean is if you wanna make changes in official source then at least make it with a background narration. Otherwise, the changes you make become baseless. I mean saying "hey drows look like this now and it is because we like to make it and we don't make a story behind our choice to fit in the game narrative" means some changes you make in the game universe needs more work. I mean it is just lazy writing expecting the audience to accept whatever you make without building a narrative network of reasoning.

That's not how D&D has ever worked. They develop the game. People play it and develop their own details. You expect them t literally write up every detail of lore for over 100 years?
Posted By: ash elemental Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 06:31 AM
I like the new Minthara, she fits the chosen of the Absolute much better. She is not following the Spider Queen anymore anymore and so she should neither act like she is still worships the Spider queen, nor look like a Lolth-sworn drow priestess. She has left that life for good; it's not like Lolth is a goddess of forgivness and would welcome her back. Considering that other "blessed by the Absolute" that you meet so far are priestess Gut, Drog Ragzlin, that one owlbear guy and the gnoll leader, it's clear that the Absolute doesn't care for looks. They are a violent cult looking for destruction, not seducing new members into their flock.

The only thing I don't like is Minthara's glitter make up, it looks weird in cutscenes.

edit: A bit off topic, but I'd like it if PC clerics and paladins would get deity-based armor, like Shadowheart, so that they look the part.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 08:18 AM
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
I've been wondering if her face has been changed other than hair and makeup alterations and coloring; it's honestly hard for me to tell; but it does seem like it if anyone knows please point it out to me; I've been scrutinizing images for a long time now trying to contrast the differences and I would like to list them. I should have taken more screenshots of her previous appearance when I had the chance; maybe I can revert the game with an earlier patch using steamdb.info; it would be nice if I could see exactly what changed.
I puzzled me aswell ... and i think i managed to find the perfect opourtunity to create comparsion. smile

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Source of Old Minthara model: 1:08

Source of New Minthara model: 0:52


Anyway, it seems to me like the facial structures was not alterned at all ...
Its indeed just the hair, makeup, and the presence of source of light certainly change the final outcome a bit too. :-/
Even her ears was so big back then. laugh

//Edit:
Maybe that is only my imagination ...
But the contrary to common expression around here, when you look at her shoulders she actualy was a little more masculine on previous model ... she certainly look a lot thiner now. O_o

//Edit2:
Just the funny detail i just noticed ... do you see that her new hair, have "kinda" spider-shape? laugh
Im affraid i will never be able to unsee it now. laugh
Posted By: Maximuuus Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 09:07 AM
Her look is not important to me at all, but I liked the first model more than the new one.
Posted By: 1varangian Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 09:14 AM
Her stock ring mail is a bigger problem. She needs a menacing Drow armor with Absolute robes over them. She looks tougher in the new hair so it's good.

This kind of debate is inevitable when they release an unfinished character model and change it 10 months later. I would still respect their vision of the character and let them finish it before demanding they revert their designs to the placeholder ones.
Posted By: Starblaireau Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 09:50 AM
The previous look was better for me.

The main issue I see with the new look is the choice of the make-up which is a bit too flashy.

She could also deserves a more caracteristic outfit smile

Anyway, it remains a minor point for me.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 09:55 AM
Originally Posted by 1varangian
This kind of debate is inevitable when they release an unfinished character model and change it 10 months later. I would still respect their vision of the character and let them finish it before demanding they revert their designs to the placeholder ones.
It would be much easier on us, if we actualy know what model is concidered finished and wich they will work on futher ...
[sarcasm]I dunno ... something like creating "PLACEHOLDER" tatoo that will those NPC have with huge green letters on forehead.[/sarcasm] laugh
Posted By: Tara Grimface Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 10:42 AM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
I've been wondering if her face has been changed other than hair and makeup alterations and coloring; it's honestly hard for me to tell; but it does seem like it if anyone knows please point it out to me; I've been scrutinizing images for a long time now trying to contrast the differences and I would like to list them. I should have taken more screenshots of her previous appearance when I had the chance; maybe I can revert the game with an earlier patch using steamdb.info; it would be nice if I could see exactly what changed.
I puzzled me aswell ... and i think i managed to find the perfect opourtunity to create comparsion. smile

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Source of Old Minthara model: 1:08

Source of New Minthara model: 0:52


Anyway, it seems to me like the facial structures was not alterned at all ...
Its indeed just the hair, makeup, and the presence of source of light certainly change the final outcome a bit too. :-/
Even her ears was so big back then. laugh

//Edit:
Maybe that is only my imagination ...
But the contrary to common expression around here, when you look at her shoulders she actualy was a little more masculine on previous model ... she certainly look a lot thiner now. O_o

//Edit2:
Just the funny detail i just noticed ... do you see that her new hair, have "kinda" spider-shape? laugh
Im affraid i will never be able to unsee it now. laugh

Thank you this really helps me; so if I figure out how to change her hair and her eyeshadow; I'll be in a good situation.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 11:45 AM
Seems like it smile

//Edit:
Chubblot is doing that for quite some time now ... maybe he will create some tutorial video. O_o
Posted By: sinogy Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 12:44 PM
Originally Posted by Pupito
Originally Posted by sinogy
You haven't even heard of Races of Faerûn up until my previous post and all of a sudden you become some sort of expert about its subtext, huh? Wow dude, it maybe too much confidence, I am telling you!

No she doesn't arguably fit all of those. Can you please be more elaborate and honest about what is physically attractive about her especially with the latest changes? Do you really think her face could be the product of selective breeding lasted for generations to produce attractive forms to seduce not only her kind but also other kinds especially surface races?
Plus, attractiveness is not all about physical attributes, it is also about representation (outfit, manner, posture etc. etc.). Her outfit is dull and modest compared to even that of goblins ffs unless it was designed for very specific people with very specific fetish!
How is she gonna seduce or intimidate surface races with her appearance? With her short hair being just short?

Minthara- " Heeey look at my short hair, it is not even fashioned short, it is just short short. and despair. Look at my ugly face which has no attractive attributes unless you have a very specific fetish and fall victim to my seduction. Look at my outfit which is purely designed for utility purposes just like that of a peasant without any visually spectacular and attractive decorations - again, unless you have a very specific fetish- and despair or fall victim to my seduction...your choice"

Huh? Is that it? Do you have an alternative interpretation to fit her into established lore? Try and see how silly it will become.

Things don't happen in midair without any base just because you say "maybeee"

Apart from all those, you labeling me for being smth I am not is becoming harassment.

Um, what are you on about? Since when were drow into seducing the surface races? You do realize that most, if not all, of the surface races basically regard them as evil or at least not to be trusted, and the drow are all about just killing or enslaving the surface races, right? Nothing about them or their culture, goddess, society, or lore, leans into them being seductresses. They aren't succubi. They are about destroying or enslaving the surface races, so of course she would be wearing actual armor, not a chainmail bikini. I don't find her quite as attractive as she was before either, but that's fine, not every female character has to be a supermodel or something, and once again the drow aren't about selective breeding and seduction but war and conquest so being traditionally attractive doesn't really matter to them, much less to humans and other surface races.


Here,

" According to the goblin Nojheim, the beauty standards of the surface races made them prone to turn a blind eye to the deeds of the drow, showing them greater leniency and acceptance." quote Reynolds, Forbeck, Jacobs, Boyd (March 2003). Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast)

Have a nice day with your wrong assumptions.



Here is a bonus to end your whole career,

"Due to a process of selective breeding that lasted for several generations,the drow (especially nobles) looked attractive even in comparison to other elven subraces." quote Reynolds, Forbeck, Jacobs, Boyd (March 2003). Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast)
Posted By: Zellin Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 01:28 PM
Ok. I was avoiding this thread long enough. Do you guys realise that Minthara is a "failure" for a Drow?
If you pretend that you're Lolth in front of her spiders they will tell you that she lost "your" ways.
If you take a look into her mind after sleeping with her you'll find out that she's afraid of something.
If you convince her not to kill you, she will tell you to met a person at her service, someone who got punished by Lolth. And Minthara talks about him with compassion.
Even more she has house Baenre mark as a tatoo. Maybe Larian made somewhat a mistake here, but normally that would tell that she's not a member of the house, but their property - a slave.

Soo... I said before already that the current hairdo suits her better and I'm standing by that... it suits her as a character, not a candy for an eye. She's fallen, probably humiliated, probably striped of all dignity she had once as a drow cleric. She probably had a moment like this at some point:
[Linked Image from cdn.vox-cdn.com]
But more likely not voluntary. And then she has this hairdo in a quite strict style now comparing to the messy one she had in previous patches. And she is a strict harsh person. That detail can be seen as her way to show that she's going to fight back, that she took this position of more of a fighter than a woman. Maybe one day after all the fighting will be done she'll grow her hair to feet, but now she's just keeping it in order.

I wouldn't vote against giving her better and more feminine face, she is an elf and a drow after all. Slightly tilted bigger eyes, slightly plumper lips, more subtle or stylish make up. But the hairdo looks more like a part of her story for me, than a choice of style and it's more suitable now than before.
Posted By: Gathord Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by Zellin
Ok. I was avoiding this thread long enough. Do you guys realise that Minthara is a "failure" for a Drow?
If you pretend that you're Lolth in front of her spiders they will tell you that she lost "your" ways.
If you take a look into her mind after sleeping with her you'll find out that she's afraid of something.
If you convince her not to kill you, she will tell you to met a person at her service, someone who got punished by Lolth. And Minthara talks about him with compassion.
Even more she has house Baenre mark as a tatoo. Maybe Larian made somewhat a mistake here, but normally that would tell that she's not a member of the house, but their property - a slave.

Soo... I said before already that the current hairdo suits her better and I'm standing by that... it suits her as a character, not a candy for an eye. She's fallen, probably humiliated, probably striped of all dignity she had once as a drow cleric. She probably had a moment like this at some point:
[Linked Image from cdn.vox-cdn.com]
But more likely not voluntary. And then she has this hairdo in a quite strict style now comparing to the messy one she had in previous patches. And she is a strict harsh person. That detail can be seen as her way to show that she's going to fight back, that she took this position of more of a fighter than a woman. Maybe one day after all the fighting will be done she'll grow her hair to feet, but now she's just keeping it in order.

I wouldn't vote against giving her better and more feminine face, she is an elf and a drow after all. Slightly tilted bigger eyes, slightly plumper lips, more subtle or stylish make up. But the hairdo looks more like a part of her story for me, than a choice of style and it's more suitable now than before.

+1

It is made very clear Minthara is not a fan of Loth and so her not giving a damn about having long hair like a typical female Drow fits like a glove. Her personality is very aggressive and so once again, short hair that does not get in the way just fits her.

I am not saying she looks perfect and there can be no changes, but attributing short hair to some agenda is hilariously sad.
Posted By: Alexandrite Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 01:57 PM
+1 to Zellin's intelligent and well thought out answer as well!
Posted By: Zellin Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
<snap>

Try to re-read and comprehend my post for real.
Posted By: sinogy Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by sinogy
<snap>

Try to re-read and comprehend my post for real.


Yeah yeah you are right on I had the wrong interpretation of your comment. That's why I deleted my post.

Still tho, too many maybes are needed to be made by players. Instead, the creator should have filled the story holes. It is %100 Larian's fault.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by Zellin
Ok. I was avoiding this thread long enough. Do you guys realise that Minthara is a "failure" for a Drow?


Soo... I said before already that the current hairdo suits her better and I'm standing by that... it suits her as a character, not a candy for an eye. She's fallen, probably humiliated, probably striped of all dignity she had once as a drow cleric. She probably had a moment like this at some point:
[Linked Image from cdn.vox-cdn.com]
But more likely not voluntary. And then she has this hairdo in a quite strict style now comparing to the messy one she had in previous patches. And she is a strict harsh person. That detail can be seen as her way to show that she's going to fight back, that she took this position of more of a fighter than a woman. Maybe one day after all the fighting will be done she'll grow her hair to feet, but now she's just keeping it in order.

This is also what I was thinking, but I wouldn't use the word failure. I would say she became disillusioned and left in disgust, maybe self-exiled and in her wanderings she found or was found by the absolute and converted.

I think the Absolute, like many cults, finds the members of society or even entire societies that are outcasts, the rejected, the abandoned. There can be great strength in a pariah, especially if they survive.

Her ritualistically cutting her hair may be part of her story arc that most players won't initially see/read/experience because they will follow a path-polished goody two-shoes arc that will result in Minthara's death.

The greatest villains are ones we can see ourselves in, especially when you know the backstory.
Posted By: Tara Grimface Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by Zellin
Ok. I was avoiding this thread long enough. Do you guys realise that Minthara is a "failure" for a Drow?
If you pretend that you're Lolth in front of her spiders they will tell you that she lost "your" ways.
If you take a look into her mind after sleeping with her you'll find out that she's afraid of something.
If you convince her not to kill you, she will tell you to met a person at her service, someone who got punished by Lolth. And Minthara talks about him with compassion.
Even more she has house Baenre mark as a tatoo. Maybe Larian made somewhat a mistake here, but normally that would tell that she's not a member of the house, but their property - a slave.

Soo... I said before already that the current hairdo suits her better and I'm standing by that... it suits her as a character, not a candy for an eye. She's fallen, probably humiliated, probably striped of all dignity she had once as a drow cleric. She probably had a moment like this at some point:
[Linked Image from cdn.vox-cdn.com]
But more likely not voluntary. And then she has this hairdo in a quite strict style now comparing to the messy one she had in previous patches. And she is a strict harsh person. That detail can be seen as her way to show that she's going to fight back, that she took this position of more of a fighter than a woman. Maybe one day after all the fighting will be done she'll grow her hair to feet, but now she's just keeping it in order.

I wouldn't vote against giving her better and more feminine face, she is an elf and a drow after all. Slightly tilted bigger eyes, slightly plumper lips, more subtle or stylish make up. But the hairdo looks more like a part of her story for me, than a choice of style and it's more suitable now than before.

It's not just guys that are part of the pre patch 5 Minthara Fan club; most players who like the first iteration do so purely out of preference and that has a lot to due with the fact that they romanced and interacted with her first iteration for how long has it been ten months now?; I suppose it's been that long.

Minthara's hair has never actually been long; it was medium length ruffled hair; so both iterations make sense in regard to her not abiding by the long haired aspect of Drow culture; though it is somewhat interesting that she keeps spiders which are servants of Lolth close at hand and she also shows no shortage of Drow supremacist views; if anything she flaunts her racial pride in my opinion; some players like her present iteration and others like her earlier iteration; it's a matter of preference.

Plenty of players loved Minthara's first iteration and many of those same individuals are saying that it's not lore friendly now; that wasn't the case before patch 5; a lot of players who were talking about her first iteration noted how ruffled and unkempt her hair was and how it fit her circumstances and demeanor; furthermore her current very copious silver eyeshadow is very peculiar for someone who apparently is being presented with a rough exterior and makes very little sense to some people; which is another reason why some players prefer her first iteration. The differences between her iterations exist in hair and makeup; her face is pretty good in my opinion.

The remedy for the players' different preferences has to be modded appearances; we can make different iterations of Minthara as well as other characters and share them; most likely on nexus mods; that way the pre patch 5 Minthara fan club and the patch 5 Minthara fan club can both be satisfied and get the experiences that they want.
Posted By: Zellin Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Still tho, too many maybes are needed to be made by players. Instead, the creator should have filled the story holes. It is %100 Larian's fault.
Ok. But we do not have the whole game on our hands yet. You can't fill all the story holes in 1st act, you'll leave nothing for the rest.
We do not even have the whole 1st act, by the way.
Posted By: Zellin Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
It's not just guys that are part of the pre patch 5 Minthara Fan club; most players who like the first iteration do so purely out of preference and that has a lot to due with the fact that they romanced and interacted with her first iteration for how long has it been ten months now?; I suppose it's been that long.

Minthara's hair has never actually been long; it was medium length ruffled hair; so both iterations make sense in regard to her not abiding by the long haired aspect of Drow culture; though it is somewhat interesting that she keeps spiders which are servants of Lolth close at hand and she also shows no shortage of Drow supremacist views; if anything she flaunts her racial pride in my opinion; some players like her present iteration and others like her earlier iteration; it's a matter of preference.

Plenty of players loved Minthara's first iteration and many of those same individuals are saying that it's not lore friendly now; that wasn't the case before patch 5; a lot of players who were talking about her first iteration noted how ruffled and unkempt her hair was and how it fit her circumstances and demeanor; furthermore her current very copious silver eyeshadow is very peculiar for someone who apparently is being presented with a rough exterior and makes very little sense to some people; which is another reason why some players prefer her first iteration. The differences between her iterations exist in hair and makeup; her face is pretty good in my opinion.

The remedy for the players' different preferences has to be modded appearances; we can make different iterations of Minthara as well as other characters and share them; most likely on nexus mods; that way the pre patch 5 Minthara fan club and the patch 5 Minthara fan club can both be satisfied and get the experiences that they want.
The previous hair was short as well, yes. But for me It just seemed too messy for HER hairstyle. She maybe not obsessed with her looks, but she doesn't strike me as someone who would allow the underlings to see her in a bad shape. So now we at least have something that is both short and keept in order.
I'm seeing her face as not perfect from the start and totally agree with criticism on the new make up. So I still hope that Larian will improve elves appreances in general and her appearance in particular.
With all respect to modding community I prefer my RPGs vanilla and if I feel like I can't enjoy it in vanilla then I see it as an oversight on developers side.
Posted By: ArvGuy Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Here,

" According to the goblin Nojheim, the beauty standards of the surface races made them prone to turn a blind eye to the deeds of the drow, showing them greater leniency and acceptance." quote Reynolds, Forbeck, Jacobs, Boyd (March 2003). Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast)

Have a nice day with your wrong assumptions.



Here is a bonus to end your whole career,

"Due to a process of selective breeding that lasted for several generations,the drow (especially nobles) looked attractive even in comparison to other elven subraces." quote Reynolds, Forbeck, Jacobs, Boyd (March 2003). Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast)
I was trying to track down your quotes but not having much luck. First because I was looking at 5E sources. Then I realised that you're quoting a 2003 book and 2003 must of course be 3E. Right.

So then I find that darn book and guess what? It says nothing about selective breeding nor does it quote any gobbo about how the beautiful Drow can get away with things. It simply is not in that particular book, and given the amount of times you've tried quoting it for those things, we're well past accidental misquote.

But where does that stuff come from, then? Because surely you didn't make it up, right? Turns out it comes from a wiki fansite.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Drow

Let's have the whole bit, not just the little lines you've cut away.

In many ways, the drow resembled other elves[23] or eladrin.[24] Their bodies were wiry and athletic,[23] while their faces were chiseled and attractive,[24] though they were shorter and thinner than other elven sub-races.[9][25][10] Due to a process of selective breeding that lasted for several generations,[9] the drow (especially nobles)[25] looked attractive[24] even in comparison to other elven subraces.[26] Though their alluring appearance could be used for seduction, it was more often utilized to instill fear.[24] According to the goblin Nojheim, the beauty standards of the surface races made them prone to turn a blind eye to the deeds of the drow, showing them greater leniency and acceptance.[27]

All those bracketed numbers are references and we can thus assume that whomever wrote this section of the Wiki took inspiration from the works mentioned in those references. But in order to check it and actually have confidence in the accuracy of this summary, we have to backtrack to the source. Given the amount of references, that's a fair bit of work. Since you've gotten your quotes so catastrophically wrong, I reckon we can assume that didn't bother doing that at all.

Personally, I was extremely curious what that gobbo reference was about, so I clicked the link. Yes, this is a wiki, and there's a link in the gobbo-name, taking us to a page dedicated to that particular gobbo, where we even get the context of the quote. Turns out, he was talking to someone called Drizz't and they were talking about prejudice, and then the gobbo said that Drizz't had it easier because he was pretty. As in, he didn't have the face of a gobbo. That's literally all the Drow beauty implied by what Nojheim said.

Drow are prettier than gobbos, shocking news at 11! Not really your fault that Mr Wiki-writer messed up, but he did mess up by including this little tidbit as suggestive of Drow being particularly pretty. And you walked right into it. You didn't even have to find the source book here, all you had to do was click on a link.

I was also curious about that selective "breeding for pretty for several generations" thing too, because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You cannot do selective breeding for "several generations" and really hope to have a whole lot of impact on anything and the time scale of the setting means that if it's just for some generations then the effect would get watered out fairly quickly afterwards. Turns out that the wiki references not Races of Faerun, like you've been claiming, but rather the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3rd Edition, page 13.

Here's what the campaign setting actually says on page 13:
Racial Abilities: Drow have all the elven racial traits listed given in Chapter 2 of the Player’s Handbook except as follows:
• +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma. The drow have ruthlessly selected for agility, intelligence, and force of personality over generations.


What's that? Force of personality? That does not sound much like selectively breeding for attractiveness, does it now?
Posted By: Abits Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 06:34 PM
This is the best post on the internet
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 06:41 PM
am i crazy? is there anything different about her other than her hairstyle?
Posted By: timebean Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 08/08/21 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
am i crazy? is there anything different about her other than her hairstyle?

You are not crazy.

They gave her shorter hair (which is now unique and not the same hairstyle as other npcs), new eyeshadow, and a different outfit. Her face is exactly the same middle~aged grumpy lady face it has always been.
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Me and many guys from the Minthara fan club are very upset that Larian decided to completely change Minthara s appearance. Please return everything as it was before patch 5. Thanks.

I agree i liked her Appearance more before Patch 5. More feminine looking, so to say.
But i also like her now more "Rogue-looking" Appearance. Like some Outcast who casts Comfort aside to make it better through the harsh Wilderness and so on.

However,
if there "should" be an Option in the finished Game that People "could DECIDE" which Look they want for which Character,

or if People could later on "mod" that the she looks like before -> i would have nothing against that.
After Zellin's input, I REALLY like her new look better. It fits more. She's right. Minthara is not there to be some sexy, messy boy toy. She's evil, aggressive, and kinda insane. I like her best of all the villains in EA, and I wouldn't want them to make her some seductress flaunting her feminine bits.

She is a cleric of the Absolute, wholly devoted and willing to do anything for her new goddess.
Can you imagine? "omg, i need to make sure my hair is long and styled and i should put on my 6 inch heels and fishnets for the absolute when i'm leading this goblin army against the druids!"
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Can you imagine? "omg, i need to make sure my hair is long and styled and i should put on my 6 inch heels and fishnets for the absolute when i'm leading this goblin army against the druids!"

Her hair was never long; it was medium length to short length and her attire is still a ringmail; some players just have a preference for Minthara's first iteration and a few months ago I don't remember anyone claiming that pre patch 5 Minthara was at all sexualized.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 01:42 AM
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Her look is not important to me at all, but I liked the first model more than the new one.
Maybe, but there are players for whom Minthara's hairstyle and appearance, the color of the chain mail is the MAIN thing in the game ;D
Larian needs to be made so that everyone likes. Possibly in-game customization choices so players can vote on an option.
Perhaps a special development team meeting is needed regarding the hairstyle and color of the armor. Blue is more beautiful, red emphasizes her aggression
Posted By: Innateagle Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 02:05 AM
She looks like a young dude, to be honest.
Posted By: Tara Grimface Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 02:27 AM
Originally Posted by Innateagle
She looks like a young dude, to be honest.

I see that too; I can't help but agree.
Posted By: Pupito Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 07:37 AM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Pupito
Originally Posted by sinogy
You haven't even heard of Races of Faerûn up until my previous post and all of a sudden you become some sort of expert about its subtext, huh? Wow dude, it maybe too much confidence, I am telling you!

No she doesn't arguably fit all of those. Can you please be more elaborate and honest about what is physically attractive about her especially with the latest changes? Do you really think her face could be the product of selective breeding lasted for generations to produce attractive forms to seduce not only her kind but also other kinds especially surface races?
Plus, attractiveness is not all about physical attributes, it is also about representation (outfit, manner, posture etc. etc.). Her outfit is dull and modest compared to even that of goblins ffs unless it was designed for very specific people with very specific fetish!
How is she gonna seduce or intimidate surface races with her appearance? With her short hair being just short?

Minthara- " Heeey look at my short hair, it is not even fashioned short, it is just short short. and despair. Look at my ugly face which has no attractive attributes unless you have a very specific fetish and fall victim to my seduction. Look at my outfit which is purely designed for utility purposes just like that of a peasant without any visually spectacular and attractive decorations - again, unless you have a very specific fetish- and despair or fall victim to my seduction...your choice"

Huh? Is that it? Do you have an alternative interpretation to fit her into established lore? Try and see how silly it will become.

Things don't happen in midair without any base just because you say "maybeee"

Apart from all those, you labeling me for being smth I am not is becoming harassment.

Um, what are you on about? Since when were drow into seducing the surface races? You do realize that most, if not all, of the surface races basically regard them as evil or at least not to be trusted, and the drow are all about just killing or enslaving the surface races, right? Nothing about them or their culture, goddess, society, or lore, leans into them being seductresses. They aren't succubi. They are about destroying or enslaving the surface races, so of course she would be wearing actual armor, not a chainmail bikini. I don't find her quite as attractive as she was before either, but that's fine, not every female character has to be a supermodel or something, and once again the drow aren't about selective breeding and seduction but war and conquest so being traditionally attractive doesn't really matter to them, much less to humans and other surface races.


Here,

" According to the goblin Nojheim, the beauty standards of the surface races made them prone to turn a blind eye to the deeds of the drow, showing them greater leniency and acceptance." quote Reynolds, Forbeck, Jacobs, Boyd (March 2003). Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast)

Have a nice day with your wrong assumptions.



Here is a bonus to end your whole career,

"Due to a process of selective breeding that lasted for several generations,the drow (especially nobles) looked attractive even in comparison to other elven subraces." quote Reynolds, Forbeck, Jacobs, Boyd (March 2003). Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast)
You quoted something saying that the beauty standards of the surface races make them prone to turn a blind eye to the deeds of the drow, showing them greater leniency and acceptance (something that doesn't come across at all in any of the books or material) not that they "were selectively bred to seduce surface races". Congrats, not only did you take two unrelated quotes and smash them together in some attempt to make it look like you were correct in assuming they were selectively bred for seducing surface races, but you were an asshole while doing it. Good job. This is why your thread is falling apart by the way, maybe try responding with some actual respect and openness for discussion instead of just knee jerk being a dick.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 09:41 AM
Sometimes it blows my mind how much we lose it on these threads. It's not all that.

1. If Minthara is the norm Drow of the game, and in Act 2 we reach Moonrise and see a ton of Drow with her short hair look, and such, it STILL wouldn't make a difference. They are ALL cultists of the Absolute and will do whatever the Absolute wants. If the Absolute wants them all to paint their faces with pink pokadots, that's what they're gonna do. It doesn't matter WHAT normal Drow society does. Absolute (ahem Larian ahem) don't care.

2. I get it that people like her previous look better. It's a matter of opinion. That's fine. I got no problems with someone who says they liked the other Minthara better. I think new fits better, but I'm not opposed to original coming back or them trying yet another look. This shouldn't make or break the game, but for some it might. Imagine someone taking a beloved character like Darth Vader and changing his whole look. That's what this is for some people. The new look just feels wrong to them.

3. Whether a Drow is typically long hair or not, wears makeup, etc., absolutely nothing says they ALL have to be that way. In fact, D&D has always encouraged creating your own, unique characters. Want a Drow with short hair Go ahead. Just because someone somewhere created a lore that Drow typically have long hair and dress seductively doesn't mean that ALL Drow everywhere throughout all time MUST have long hair and dress like prostitutes. They don't have to appear feminine. They don't have to be a certain way at all.
Posted By: Wormerine Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 12:02 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Larian needs to be made so that everyone likes.
That's ridiculous. There is always someone who won't like something.

Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Possibly in-game customization choices so players can vote on an option.
There is a better and more sensible way: modding! There is always some desire to "cute up" NPCs.
Posted By: sinogy Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by Pupito
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Pupito
Originally Posted by sinogy
You haven't even heard of Races of Faerûn up until my previous post and all of a sudden you become some sort of expert about its subtext, huh? Wow dude, it maybe too much confidence, I am telling you!

No she doesn't arguably fit all of those. Can you please be more elaborate and honest about what is physically attractive about her especially with the latest changes? Do you really think her face could be the product of selective breeding lasted for generations to produce attractive forms to seduce not only her kind but also other kinds especially surface races?
Plus, attractiveness is not all about physical attributes, it is also about representation (outfit, manner, posture etc. etc.). Her outfit is dull and modest compared to even that of goblins ffs unless it was designed for very specific people with very specific fetish!
How is she gonna seduce or intimidate surface races with her appearance? With her short hair being just short?

Minthara- " Heeey look at my short hair, it is not even fashioned short, it is just short short. and despair. Look at my ugly face which has no attractive attributes unless you have a very specific fetish and fall victim to my seduction. Look at my outfit which is purely designed for utility purposes just like that of a peasant without any visually spectacular and attractive decorations - again, unless you have a very specific fetish- and despair or fall victim to my seduction...your choice"

Huh? Is that it? Do you have an alternative interpretation to fit her into established lore? Try and see how silly it will become.

Things don't happen in midair without any base just because you say "maybeee"

Apart from all those, you labeling me for being smth I am not is becoming harassment.

Um, what are you on about? Since when were drow into seducing the surface races? You do realize that most, if not all, of the surface races basically regard them as evil or at least not to be trusted, and the drow are all about just killing or enslaving the surface races, right? Nothing about them or their culture, goddess, society, or lore, leans into them being seductresses. They aren't succubi. They are about destroying or enslaving the surface races, so of course she would be wearing actual armor, not a chainmail bikini. I don't find her quite as attractive as she was before either, but that's fine, not every female character has to be a supermodel or something, and once again the drow aren't about selective breeding and seduction but war and conquest so being traditionally attractive doesn't really matter to them, much less to humans and other surface races.


Here,

" According to the goblin Nojheim, the beauty standards of the surface races made them prone to turn a blind eye to the deeds of the drow, showing them greater leniency and acceptance." quote Reynolds, Forbeck, Jacobs, Boyd (March 2003). Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast)

Have a nice day with your wrong assumptions.



Here is a bonus to end your whole career,

"Due to a process of selective breeding that lasted for several generations,the drow (especially nobles) looked attractive even in comparison to other elven subraces." quote Reynolds, Forbeck, Jacobs, Boyd (March 2003). Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast)
You quoted something saying that the beauty standards of the surface races make them prone to turn a blind eye to the deeds of the drow, showing them greater leniency and acceptance (something that doesn't come across at all in any of the books or material) not that they "were selectively bred to seduce surface races". Congrats, not only did you take two unrelated quotes and smash them together in some attempt to make it look like you were correct in assuming they were selectively bred for seducing surface races, but you were an asshole while doing it. Good job. This is why your thread is falling apart by the way, maybe try responding with some actual respect and openness for discussion instead of just knee jerk being a dick.

" you were an asshole..." how sad. Well, sunshine, I don't care about your feelings. If you weren't distracted by your feelings maybe you would not have such wrong conclusions.

Anyway, the fact is Larian's visual design choices on Minthara as well as some other things are not parallel to the lore and they break immersion at least for some of us. Is it a big deal? Maybe, proly not. We'll see.
Posted By: KeinSklave Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 03:29 PM
Oh Mintharas current looks break the immersion FOR ME absolutely 100% - this is not how "Drow" look like!

And if there is not at least a mention as to why Minthara would tolerate that her hair looks like that of a screeching Banshee now, I will not tolerate it.
BEFORE WAS GOOD, what we have now is a nightmare!
In all kinds of artworks, canon official one's and fanworks, Drow tend to show typical styles & characteristics.

Appart from their clothes style, they like to grow their vibrant elven heritage hair out, which stays rich & vigorous for centurys, down to the tips who might as well reach their ankles!

Elves are monsters of lifeforce and Drows are no exceptions!
Specially the Drow might feel additionally superior to 'pet-races' because of their long lives.
Everything that they can have, what others Races cannot have, they might enhance & support to the maximum.
One of that being their smooth, long hair!

Not that Mintharas hair looked that gorgeous or long to begin with.
But what we have now is a catastrophe and an insult!
And I smell the stench of real life, modern day political & ethical ideologies behind it.
Posted By: The Composer Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Well, sunshine, I don't care about your feelings.

You should. You've been suspended and warned multiple times before. Here on forth until the end of dawn, you will be respectful and polite towards other forum users. This is the last, and only warning I offer.
Posted By: Tara Grimface Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 05:19 PM
I think they lack hair options and their character customization is too limited; and I'm almost certain Larian thinks that's not the case but when I compare their hairstyles to some Japanese RPGs there are no shortage of long hairstyles and NPCs with fantasy long elven-like hairstyles in those. There was a mod released not too long ago that perfectly fixed this problem using Larian's own resources called Tav's hair salon it works with the current patch, https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/213 it provides awesome long hairstyles, short and medium; Larian could of easily done the work of that mod. Even short and medium hairstyles seem limited to me and I think there should be far more variety in general; it seems they've been creating unique hairstyles for some major NPCs; but I really hope they add more options in general.

Minthara's hair was just medium length at most pre patch 5; and I do understand that she isn't supposed to be a typical Drow per se; that said what is the typical Drow going to look like in Baldur's Gate 3 how are they going to translate the high fantasy to the video game; I'm very interested as to what will be restricted to the game limitations or Larian's personal vision. Also Minthara's heavy silver eyeshadow from the posts I've seen; I haven't seen one comment of anyone who actually likes it; I have a strange story about that actually; I was playing BG3 with reshade and effects with the brightness cut down to low; I was in the goblin keep and I got to the scene with Minthara and her silver eyeshadow really sort of stood out in the dark which was not at all the case in pre patch 5 BG3; it's very superfluous for a person who apparently doesn't care about looking that feminine it would seem; I really would like to see her concept art; I want to know what Larian is basing their design in game on.
Posted By: Avallonkao Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 05:35 PM
I dunno, I got the game patch 5, and I must say, At first I personally didn't quite understand the appeal on her. She's ugly, like, ok, ppl have their tastes, but, nothing on her makes her visually appealing to me. And the way she talks and her voice. I was basically, just shut up, I'm gonna kill you now.

But then, I saw the video on yt, the scene and all, and I was like. Ohhh, now I see, horny ppl, makes sense. But, honestly, it's nice to see that they've made an option for those who like to play an evil route, and I must say, her route is one of the most evil I've seen in any game I've played so far. So, I'm curious to see how Larian will manage this route.
Posted By: Tara Grimface Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by KeinSklave
Oh Mintharas current looks break the immersion FOR ME absolutely 100% - this is not how "Drow" look like!

And if there is not at least a mention as to why Minthara would tolerate that her hair looks like that of a screeching Banshee now, I will not tolerate it.
BEFORE WAS GOOD, what we have now is a nightmare!
In all kinds of artworks, canon official one's and fanworks, Drow tend to show typical styles & characteristics.

Appart from their clothes style, they like to grow their vibrant elven heritage hair out, which stays rich & vigorous for centurys, down to the tips who might as well reach their ankles!

Elves are monsters of lifeforce and Drows are no exceptions!
Specially the Drow might feel additionally superior to 'pet-races' because of their long lives.
Everything that they can have, what others Races cannot have, they might enhance & support to the maximum.
One of that being their smooth, long hair!

Not that Mintharas hair looked that gorgeous or long to begin with.
But what we have now is a catastrophe and an insult!
And I smell the stench of real life, modern day political & ethical ideologies behind it.

I can relate to that sentiment; due to the fact that the in game character design has to be based on concept art first and I do wonder which iteration is more faithful to Minthara's concept art; because if it is patch 5 then that's quite jarring to players who had a romance or a preference for pre patch 5 Minthara for what I believe is about a good couple months of playtime ; and if the pre patch 5 iteration of Minthara is more faithful to the concept art; it would raise the question as to why her hair length was changed to medium to very short. Could it be polictical?; I don't know, it could be that they intend for Minthara to be a more masculine woman to romance; perhaps to appeal to Lesbians maybe?; that's just my speculation; I have a strong feeling that no explanation at all will be provided about her appearance in game; because frankly I think BG3 doesn't actually have that many long hairstyles; it's going to be hard for them to express the variation that is present in high fantasy literature; they could but I have a feeling they won't and we'll just have their mixture of long, medium and short styles without any cultural context involved; I think DOS2 did a better job of making races unique in regard to hairs and armors.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 05:59 PM
This is kinda crazy. I can't believe we're still discussing Minthara's hair and saying that she is Drow, therefore, her hair must be long and not cropped short because she's a Drow.

Any drow who falsely wears the colors or insignia of another House (except by the express permission from that House), or who deliberately alters his or her hairstyle or attire to appear as a rank different from his or her own (except by the express permission of the owning Matron), must die.

--From the chapter Daily Life in Menzoberranzan, page 14 in the 2nd edition Menzoberranzan Boxed Set.

Drow society also had a strict fashion code (which included rules about hairstyles) meant to allow easy identification of a drow's social station and House (if any). Any drow who committed identification litigations by wearing the wrong hair style, clothes, and/or drow house insignia was considered a criminal unless the House authorized the use of their color or insignia or if the matron mother expressedly permitted a drow to change their hair and attire to appear as a different rank. It was also illegal for non-drow to disguise themselves as a specific drow, a noble drow, or a member of a House outside of the one they belonged to.

From Jarlaxle Baenre's Wikipedia article:

"Jarlaxle's shaven head is a symbol of his place in Menzoberranzan. In a society where rank and position are indicated by hair style (e.g., male drow nobles all have haircuts specific to their houses), Jarlaxle has no hair to illustrate that he considers himself a houseless rogue."

Which is a cool detail. However, I'm having trouble finding what hairstyles are used to indicate what social rank in Menzoberranzan. All the examples I can recall are of male drow who specifically keep their hair short either because they're warriors who don't want to have their hair pulled by opponents or because they, like Jarlaxle, are making a deliberate statement about their place in drow society.

There are many things I could site out here about Drow culture and hairstyles and so forth, but it doesn't matter. Minthara is no longer a Drow in the Underdark societies under Lolth or any other. She belongs to the Absolute. Therefore, they can give her whatever appearance they want to. It doesn't require any other reasoning or excuse or story plot device. They don't need to create a cutscene to tell us why she has short hair or not. There is no other reason necessary other than, "She is Minthara, Cleric of the Absolute, an unknown Goddess-Wanna-Be who is doing everything She can to wipe out other gods and take their followers for herself. She is actually doing everything in Her power to snuff out the old traditions and usher in her own."

So it makes sense that Minthara will not conform to any society, even her old society. Yes, in her old society, if she cut her hair short, she might be thought of as a slave. Not in Minthara's new culture and society. In her new society, she is a Drow woman to respect and fear, and she leads a band of dumb goblins who all worship the ground she walks on. She can walk around with a completely shaved head, a mohawk with different colors in it, or whatever, and it won't matter. They'll still worship her and fear her because she's a boss, and she's a True Soul, and she's a Cleric of the Absolute, Chosen by the Chosen, to find the weapon.

Now, again, I say, whether you like the new look or the old, or you want something new and different, that's something we can talk about and give our opinions. All this other stuff about her new look not fitting her as a Drow and stuff, that seems a bit off topic and unimportant to whether they should or should not revert to her previous appearance.

I, personally, would maybe like to see something else. I don't really think either look is particularly awesome. I think they could make her look even better. I'm not looking for slut-zilla with boobs popping out or anything like that. I actually like that they kept her more tough looking and less skanky, like people tend to make Drow females look. However, she could benefit from yet another overhaul. I agree she could look more feminine, but that doesn't bother me if they don't. There are many women who don't necessarily burst forth with traditional feminine form. Why does Minthara have to be a busty female with curves and showing off her naughty bits to prove she's a woman?

No, I'm just wondering if they could make her look even creepier and more evil. That's more of what I care about with her. Again, to me, she's the most evil character of the 3 bosses. Therefore, I'd like to see her with more of a wicked appearance. I'm not even sure what that is, but her personality is straight up crazy.

I'm thinking something more like this: [Linked Image from pbs.twimg.com]

or maybe this except with more armor on and such (notice the short hair): [img]https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/asset...er_square/sara-hum-splash.jpg?1537142496[/img]

I don't know. Just something more wicked looking and/or creepy.
Posted By: Tara Grimface Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 06:15 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
This is kinda crazy. I can't believe we're still discussing Minthara's hair and saying that she is Drow, therefore, her hair must be long and not cropped short because she's a Drow.

Any drow who falsely wears the colors or insignia of another House (except by the express permission from that House), or who deliberately alters his or her hairstyle or attire to appear as a rank different from his or her own (except by the express permission of the owning Matron), must die.

--From the chapter Daily Life in Menzoberranzan, page 14 in the 2nd edition Menzoberranzan Boxed Set.

Drow society also had a strict fashion code (which included rules about hairstyles) meant to allow easy identification of a drow's social station and House (if any). Any drow who committed identification litigations by wearing the wrong hair style, clothes, and/or drow house insignia was considered a criminal unless the House authorized the use of their color or insignia or if the matron mother expressedly permitted a drow to change their hair and attire to appear as a different rank. It was also illegal for non-drow to disguise themselves as a specific drow, a noble drow, or a member of a House outside of the one they belonged to.

From Jarlaxle Baenre's Wikipedia article:

"Jarlaxle's shaven head is a symbol of his place in Menzoberranzan. In a society where rank and position are indicated by hair style (e.g., male drow nobles all have haircuts specific to their houses), Jarlaxle has no hair to illustrate that he considers himself a houseless rogue."

Which is a cool detail. However, I'm having trouble finding what hairstyles are used to indicate what social rank in Menzoberranzan. All the examples I can recall are of male drow who specifically keep their hair short either because they're warriors who don't want to have their hair pulled by opponents or because they, like Jarlaxle, are making a deliberate statement about their place in drow society.

There are many things I could site out here about Drow culture and hairstyles and so forth, but it doesn't matter. Minthara is no longer a Drow in the Underdark societies under Lolth or any other. She belongs to the Absolute. Therefore, they can give her whatever appearance they want to. It doesn't require any other reasoning or excuse or story plot device. They don't need to create a cutscene to tell us why she has short hair or not. There is no other reason necessary other than, "She is Minthara, Cleric of the Absolute, an unknown Goddess-Wanna-Be who is doing everything She can to wipe out other gods and take their followers for herself. She is actually doing everything in Her power to snuff out the old traditions and usher in her own."

So it makes sense that Minthara will not conform to any society, even her old society. Yes, in her old society, if she cut her hair short, she might be thought of as a slave. Not in Minthara's new culture and society. In her new society, she is a Drow woman to respect and fear, and she leads a band of dumb goblins who all worship the ground she walks on. She can walk around with a completely shaved head, a mohawk with different colors in it, or whatever, and it won't matter. They'll still worship her and fear her because she's a boss, and she's a True Soul, and she's a Cleric of the Absolute, Chosen by the Chosen, to find the weapon.

Now, again, I say, whether you like the new look or the old, or you want something new and different, that's something we can talk about and give our opinions. All this other stuff about her new look not fitting her as a Drow and stuff, that seems a bit off topic and unimportant to whether they should or should not revert to her previous appearance.

I, personally, would maybe like to see something else. I don't really think either look is particularly awesome. I think they could make her look even better. I'm not looking for slut-zilla with boobs popping out or anything like that. I actually like that they kept her more tough looking and less skanky, like people tend to make Drow females look. However, she could benefit from yet another overhaul. I agree she could look more feminine, but that doesn't bother me if they don't. There are many women who don't necessarily burst forth with traditional feminine form. Why does Minthara have to be a busty female with curves and showing off her naughty bits to prove she's a woman?

No, I'm just wondering if they could make her look even creepier and more evil. That's more of what I care about with her. Again, to me, she's the most evil character of the 3 bosses. Therefore, I'd like to see her with more of a wicked appearance. I'm not even sure what that is, but her personality is straight up crazy.

I'm thinking something more like this: [Linked Image from pbs.twimg.com]

or maybe this except with more armor on and such (notice the short hair): [img]https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/asset...er_square/sara-hum-splash.jpg?1537142496[/img]

I don't know. Just something more wicked looking and/or creepy.

Those designs look great I can only hope that the final product looks somewhat like those two and the style of attire also creates a different aesthetic effect than a generic ringmail.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
This is kinda crazy. I can't believe we're still discussing Minthara's hair and saying that she is Drow, therefore, her hair must be long and not cropped short because she's a Drow.

You're missing the real argument for the fake one. The bottom line is people want her to look sexy, and short hair on women isn't sexy (according to the people upset). the lore is just an excuse to try to justify themselves preferring a very specific definition of attractive for women. I wouldn't overthink it past that if i were you smile
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by GM4Him
This is kinda crazy. I can't believe we're still discussing Minthara's hair and saying that she is Drow, therefore, her hair must be long and not cropped short because she's a Drow.

You're missing the real argument for the fake one. The bottom line is people want her to look sexy, and short hair on women isn't sexy (according to the people upset). the lore is just an excuse to try to justify themselves preferring a very specific definition of attractive for women. I wouldn't overthink it past that if i were you smile

Oh no. I didn't miss it. I've been speaking out against that as well. That's why I mentioned the whole thing about her not needing to be some busty female. She's tough and vicious, not sexy and seductive.

That aside, I was looking at the new versus old versions of her, and I think I have a new theory as to why they chose what they did for her hairstyle. I don't think it has any story relevance at all, and I don't think they thought it was going to be this big of a thing for people.

I think it all boils down to two reasons:

1. Her pointy ears aren't hidden and are more pronounced in the newer version, so she doesn't appear to just be some wild-haired human with a little bit of tips of pointy-ears sticking out that you kinda really can't see so people might not even realize she's drow. In fact, most images I found on Google make her appear to be human. Her ears are almost completely hidden, and you can't even tell much. Other than her skin color, she looks like she isn't really a drow at all.

2. The old hairstyle almost completely hides her neck tattoo. I'm not sure if that's important at all, but I'm thinking they definitely wanted to show it off.

I think the change in makeup was to make her look more sinister and creepy in certain lighting. So they probably didn't even consider story, lore, or anything everyone has been discussing on this thread. They probably just wanted to show off those two features, and they probably felt that red armor popped more than blue during those darker scenes in the Goblin Base.

Look at the difference between the ears and tattoo in these two pics.

[Linked Image from c.radikal.ru]

https://preview.redd.it/epynbbivktb...787a8dc0dcddb1bbb4c9ff7f56ff4c4e1bd6739b
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 08:43 PM
The more I look at both images, the more I have to admit, Original Minthara looks tougher. She strikes me as someone who seems more rough and tumble. New Minthara seems more like a boy band member. There are moments when she looks creepier than Original Minthara, but I don't ever feel that New Minthara is as tough looking as Original Minthara.

Original: [Linked Image from gamertweak.com]

New: https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/f...ok.png/revision/latest?cb=20210716230413
Posted By: Zellin Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 09:20 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
The more I look at both images, the more I have to admit, Original Minthara looks tougher. She strikes me as someone who seems more rough and tumble. New Minthara seems more like a boy band member. There are moments when she looks creepier than Original Minthara, but I don't ever feel that New Minthara is as tough looking as Original Minthara.
And now where you think that toughness got lost? Some crude Photoshop:
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by GM4Him
The more I look at both images, the more I have to admit, Original Minthara looks tougher. She strikes me as someone who seems more rough and tumble. New Minthara seems more like a boy band member. There are moments when she looks creepier than Original Minthara, but I don't ever feel that New Minthara is as tough looking as Original Minthara.
And now where you think that toughness got lost? Some crude Photoshop:
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Yes, Zellin! That's what I'm talking about. THAT'S what I wanna see more of for her. I know all you did was something simple, but DANG that's better.
Posted By: Zellin Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Yes, Zellin! That's what I'm talking about. THAT'S what I wanna see more of for her. I know all you did was something simple, but DANG that's better.
I just changed the eyeshadows, eyelashes and brows, made them as their were - dark. Makeup can really work wonders.
Posted By: DragonSnooz Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 10:26 PM
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by GM4Him
The more I look at both images, the more I have to admit, Original Minthara looks tougher. She strikes me as someone who seems more rough and tumble. New Minthara seems more like a boy band member. There are moments when she looks creepier than Original Minthara, but I don't ever feel that New Minthara is as tough looking as Original Minthara.
And now where you think that toughness got lost? Some crude Photoshop:
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
Exactly, the make-up is the issue.
Posted By: Zellin Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 11:39 PM
I'll just leave her here:
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
Some more Photoshop in attempt to find that line when she would still look evil, but more as an elven cutie.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 11:44 PM
So much better! See with those white lashes not all blown out and the brows dialed back.

She doesn't even need the heavy eyeshadow if the lighting is done right, but it certainly helps when the backlight doesn't give her enough to work with. In that case I think the makeup can make it more consistent. I still think the model in game is showing artifacts from the lashes and not a change in the eyeliner per se for the new Minthara.

The stuff with the physique/posture also an optical illusion from the changes in the outfit color/contrast I think. And because now we see more of her neck, cheekbones and brow because its not covered by the bangs or sidelocks. I don't think they changed the model itself.

Its just the knock on effect of white brows/lashes and how the new hair reveals more of what was already there before. The ears for example. Also when seen from behind or the side, the nape of her neck being exposed also has the slimming effect that probably makes her look narrower. Especially combined with the lines coming from ears on the diagonal sweep, but the shoulders neck etc are the same, its just that we see more of it now cause of the lighter colored outfit on the sleeves doesn't bleed into the figure to create the shadow vignette. I don't think they actually changed anything about her model beyond the hair. The rest is just color changes, but those can go a long way even when subtle.

The above looks much stronger. I'd like to see the same, but with her dressed in Black!!!Or at least some of the darker purple/blues from before. But black wpuld make her look instantly like nobody to fuck with. Even with the new trim, it'd read way more hardcore I think hehe
Posted By: Zellin Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
The above looks much stronger. I'd like to see the same, but with her dressed in Black!!!Or at least some of the darker purple/blues from before. But black wpuld make her look instantly like nobody to fuck with. Even with the new trim, it'd read way more hardcore I think hehe
I personally would even give her black attire with stand-up lapel collar for more menacing look.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 09/08/21 11:56 PM
I was even thinking, if you're going to put her in heavy armor, why not go all out. Put her in plate. Give her some fancy, awesome plate armor with the Absolute symbol on it and make her really look tough.

Armor maybe like this: https://images.app.goo.gl/fXfScqiEgp74EgCi8
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 12:27 AM
No doubt!!! Doesn't have to be full on popped collar, but something protecting the neck at the carotid would make sense for kicking ass too. I'd go with the classic thin band basically up to where her neck tat is. Just to cover where the neck and shoulder meet. They could do the skinny version like Baroness or Evil-Lyn, or Sorsha style maybe where its chain/plate, or those high necked get ups that we associated more with gothic horror, but like the armored version? Even if its leather or chain or something rather than a neck plate.

Some half plate would be so much more legit than this! Like some dark iron color with black trim. keep the red in the eyes and the belt jewel, but go darker for the whole get up. Tonally I mean. It doesn't need to pop and be nearly so colorful. It's better when we have more shadows to work with. I think that's why I liked the shoulder length trim over the new one, cause it cast a stronger shadow. But they could do a similar effect just with the armor design and still allow it to key off her face. The shade cast by the brow onto the cheekbones is also stronger when its not interrupted by the details of the lashes. When its all blacked out it looks even more menacing, even if we don't actually see the detail work there. I just think it was stronger when more of that visual information was omitted by the cast shadows and the color selection of the first drafting.

I don't mind the hair at all, it's more the other stuff I think they could improve for characterization along classic villainy lines. I mean if we're supposed to stress off the absolute being even more menacing than Drow and Flayers and such. Maybe we're not and the absolute is more campy, but I'd prefer some black plate, just to see. Would be cool if they opened up a design contest of some kind and then did something on a vote. Just to involve their EA players in some kind of fun something. Then at the end just make the top 3 designs something that we could select alts for as the player. That would be a nice touch and like a thing to do that might be fun.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 03:10 AM
Agreed. I really just want Minthara especially to be more evil looking, and I was thinking similarly. Black and purples. She's a Drow. When you finally meet her in her sanctum, have her bathed in shadows so only her eyes are glowing out of the darkness. Stuff like that.

There's so much they could do with her. SO much.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 03:16 AM
Ok, this one's a bit cartoonish, but Drow with short hair and .ore importantly closer to ehat I was thinking armor.

https://images.app.goo.gl/3gyw98iVXLiGUHKe6

Imagine the Absolute symbol on her belt where the skull is. Put a mace in one hand and shield in the other... and the shield also bears a raised skull Absolute symbol, the whole shield shaped in Drow fashion.

And maybe not high heeled boots. Why women always in high heeled boots when they supposed to be kick butt? Makes no sense.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 04:02 AM
Maybe this armor and shield but with purple trim and Absolute symbols.

https://images.app.goo.gl/weBidRoV2uovSBLL8
Originally Posted by KeinSklave
Originally Posted by Veilburner
Never understood that idea of women with short hair is somehow masculine. Why isn't the same idea applied to men with long hair?

We live in times also in which certain hairstyles have earned themself a bad reputation.
Because they were adopted by people of repulsive behaviour & ideologies.
People who become Meme's and warning signals for the masses.


I am a man so I cannot say for the other way around but long hair has a very female impression in our modern society.
And it will remain this way no matter what some very loud & influental people say or do.
It just is that way.
Furthermore and as countless other heterosexual males, I have come to like it and view it as strongly expressing the feminim beauty.
"Short hair" for Women is considered shoulder deep probably for most.

But this?
This what happened to Minthara?
It is just "punk" or "feminist" or whatever "renegade" like style.
Very bad.

With Drow: You know they are fanatics. But now?
Now Minthara looks like she is nothing but some sort of insufferable extremist.


The calm, calculating, manipulative Drow who uses her feminim charm has disappeared.
She looks like someone being aggressive & verbally offensive to people in her society, probably on "protests".
^
This is what the new hairstyle of her's is now making me expect.
Just terrible.

This
Posted By: Aazo Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 04:30 AM
You know... just possibly Larian did this to see what OUR reactions would be? Anyone ever consider that? This is still test mode after all, so future changes are going to happen... so they may have done this to spark this dialog to see what OUR opinions are on her appearance change.
Posted By: Imryll Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 05:05 AM
By all means fix her buggy eye make-up, but my guess is she was redesigned because player reactions told them she wasn't perceived as the person Larian intended for her to be. I agree with those who think she was prettier before, but if she's not supposed to be a "pretty" character, that's a problem, not an advantage.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by Zellin
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
This ... Larian, please. laugh
Posted By: Tara Grimface Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 12:09 PM
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by GM4Him
The more I look at both images, the more I have to admit, Original Minthara looks tougher. She strikes me as someone who seems more rough and tumble. New Minthara seems more like a boy band member. There are moments when she looks creepier than Original Minthara, but I don't ever feel that New Minthara is as tough looking as Original Minthara.
And now where you think that toughness got lost? Some crude Photoshop:
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Much better; I hope Larian sees this and realizes how out of place silver eyeshadow is on her.
Posted By: Tara Grimface Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 02:19 PM
I think the first iteration has less eyeshadow; she had black eyeshadow but there was a lot less of it and that is especially noticeable under her eyes.

[img]https://static3.gamerantimages.com/...fit=crop&w=960&h=500&dpr=1.5[/img]

[img]https://64.media.tumblr.com/d23d65a...e94a91f074cb6962b5c8d68b46ad739a03f.gifv[/img]

[img]https://64.media.tumblr.com/97c4a12...0c167c983bc7dae99e0f166c7fb318e8fc3.gifv[/img]

[img]https://64.media.tumblr.com/ec939f5...cbe3e9036055557e17f90fceedb2960cadf.gifv[/img]

[img]https://preview.redd.it/atxx25afqub...82a3be0cd4b1cb475fbb3a7297314f7f980956f9[/img]

So patch 5 Minthara is wearing more makeup contrary to less and it makes her look less natural; I know that I'm not crazy because it's so obvious when you compare the two; I actually think her face is very feminine and I appreciate it more with less makeup; and I had a suspicion that patch 5 Minthara had more eyeshadow, especially on her lower eyelids; but until I looked carefully at both pictures I couldn't really say. The photoshop picture that was posted earlier looks better than the patch 5 silver eyeshadow but there's still more eyeshadow in the photoshop picture than the pre patch 5 Minthara who had even less eyeshadow than that; this is the first time I've noticed this and it makes me realize all the more why I liked the pre patch 5 Minthara; she literally looks more natural.

I myself prefer a natural visage and don't use an excess of eyeshadow; so there's a contrast in patch 5 Minthara; Larian gave her more makeup changed the eyebrow color to white and gave her what is considered to be typically a more masculine haircut; the juxtaposition of more eyeshadow and silver eyeshadow at that which is very bright and her very short hair which looks similar
to a haircut which David Bowie had is very confusing to me. It makes me wonder if the purpose of the patch 5 iteration is to make her more feminine with increased eyeshadow or make her more masculine with very short hair?; as so many posters on this forum have rightly stated she is a rough woman; so what sense does it make that she keeps a stockpile of silver eyeshadow even in a goblin keep; I say none at all!; she must be a very peculiar woman indeed.

Personally I want her to have a natural face with preferably little to no eyeshadow; and I have a feeling Larian isn't going to do that; though I've speculated some about the reasons for the patch 5 eyeshadow; I think they want to make her seem rougher and more masculine with the new haircut and at the same time give her a bit of feminine charm with a makeup increase; but I think that their decision has had the opposite effect; it doesn't mesh well as far as I'm concerned. Peradventure it would fit more if they took away her heavy eyeshadow and simply gave her another unique short hairstyle that was more feminine. I'd honestly like to see Larian's concept art of her; to see what their ideal appearance for her is.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 02:40 PM
What do you think of this (excerpt from my Fan Fiction: The Afflicted) SPOILERS:

Vexir slowly approached, eying Minthara cautiously. This was the one person she feared the most. She had no idea what kind of person Minthara was, but she couldn’t think of a Drow female back home that was NOT evil, clever, sick, twisted, malicious and totally dangerous to be around. She truly hated her own kind, and until that moment, she hadn’t really realized just how much that was so.

Minthara was cloaked in shadow. There were a few torches and braziers around to provide light, but her desk was not near any of these. She purposely liked to sit in the shadows. It was intimidating to her underlings. She sat with arms folded and a look of quiet contemplation on her face as she listened to the reports she was receiving.

She was a five foot seven Drow with a feminine physique hidden under a suit of black, custom plate mail armor. Though custom made, it was not form fitting. Minthara preferred what was practical over what was fashionable. She was not, like many, concerned with appearances. Form-fitting armor left little room between the person and the weapon coming at them.

The armor was, however, made for an individual who was more slight of build as opposed to big and bulky. It was sleek and smooth to prevent the wearer from getting caught on anything. There were countless overlapping, shifting plates which provided her with flexibility and mobility. Each plate had a dark purple trim so that it appeared as if the suit was made of amethyst spider webs and not metal at all.

And the armor was dull. Minthara did not like shiny. She preferred the dark metal to vanish in the shadows, not reflect every ray of light. The purple trim was the only thing that appeared when light touched it, and this only IF Minthara willed it. The trim, when activated, created the illusion that some sort of white webbing was shifting and moving around in the darkness; something enemies usually tried to avoid. Webs ensnared, after all.

At the center of the breastplate, there was the symbol of the Absolute. It was a slightly raised skull jutting out of an upside down triangle with a bloody handprint on its cranium. Like the rest of the armor, it did not shine. However, since it was overlaid with silver, it did stand out. This was something Minthara both loved and hated. She wanted all to see the Absolute and recognize her symbol. However, in combat, she wanted nothing to reveal her location.

This was why Minthara also had a black cloak with dark purple trim. She was not wearing it at that time, but the cloak was hanging on a peg near her. If she wanted to hide her armor and hair, so a person couldn’t even see the white or the symbol of the Absolute, she would throw the cloak over herself and vanish. If her enemies knew where she was, she would throw off her cloak so that it didn’t hinder her or get caught on anything.

Minthara had short, white hair and a black, web-like tattoo on the left side of her neck. The web looked almost like an “A” with a pentagram overlapping the top of it. The base of the pentagram was the crossbar of the “A”. The lines of the tattoo were curved inward, not straight, which gave it the web-like appearance. Her red eyes shone brightly in the dim light, surrounded by patches of darkness. It was almost as if her eyes floated amidst black pools. Her bangs fell on both sides of her face, almost like spider legs, and the remainder of her straight hair was feathered back behind her pointed ears.

On her left hip, she wore a mace with a gold cap on the end of the handle. The grip was of leather with a gold band in the center and at the opposite end. The weapon was clearly imbued with magic, for there were runes etched into it, and the symbol of the Absolute. Near her, resting against her desk, was a curved shield; also magical. The symbol of the Absolute was as large as life on its black, dull metal surface.

“Mistress!” cried Sazza. “It’s me, yer loyal servant, Sazza. I’m back, an’ I brought a friend.” She gestured at Vexir who came slowly up behind her.

Minthara’s eyes lifted to stare holes through Vexir. “A Drow?” she asked, her voice raspy and sultry. It was filled with both curiosity and veiled threats. With just those two words, she warned Vexir that this was her territory. She would gladly fight tooth and nail if necessary to keep her place there. No one would supplant her.

Minthara’s grin spread. “Tell me, Sazza, did your misadventures take you to the Underdark?” she asked.

Sazza was immediately on the defensive and clearly scared to death. “They woz in some rickety druid grove! Mostly full of Tieflin’s, but them intruders you’re after were hidin’ out there!”

Minthara’s voice was as cold as ice; as sharp as steel. “I presume you dealt with my prey, and massacred the rest? Why else would you have returned? You must know the price for failure.”

Sazza swallowed hard, looking desperate to save herself. “Ah… well. The thing about that is… they sorta massacred us.” Then she was quick to add, “but I brought you the ones wot did it!” She moved away from Vexir in fear that she might lash out at her as she gestured in her direction. “These is the ones wot killed the whole raidin’ party, and I brought ‘em ‘ere to you, Mistress. See? Sazza ‘asn’t come empty ‘anded.”

Then she laughed as if she had just played a practical joke on Vexir. “Funny thing is, this’n ‘ere’s the one wot ‘elped me to escape, though. She though’ she was so smar’. She though’ she tricked me, bu’ I tricked ‘er good, Mistress. I lured ‘er ‘ere as a gift for ya.” She smiled evilly up at Vexir, her own plans coming to fruition. “I say we stick a few ‘oles in ‘er… show ‘ow grateful we is.”

But Vexir then felt a cold hand caress her mind as Minthara appraised her. The Drow’s smile told everyone there the truth. The joke was on Sazza in the end. “Oh dear. Your prisoner is one of the Absolute’s favorites, Sazza,” she said with intense mock concern. “She’s a True Soul.” Minthara’s eyes gleamed hungrily at Vexir, and the normally stoic Drow Battlemaster swallowed hard herself. She wasn’t sure that she was in control of the situation any longer. It seemed Minthara had been waiting for her, and she had BIG plans. Vexir was meant to be there. Minthara had been counting on it.

“Nah,” said Sazza with a nervous chuckle. She was hoping beyond hope Minthara was indeed joking. “Can’t be. They was in the grove, ‘angin’ around wiff the Tieflin’s.”

Minthara never released Vexir’s gaze. She just kept grinning with sinister intent. “Undercover, no doubt,” she replied. “Carrying out the Absolute’s will.” The look on her face told Vexir that she knew the truth all-too-well. For whatever reason, Minthara was playing along with Vexir’s deceptions. It was as if she was manipulating her; trying to force her to fulfill some dark purpose.

Then, at last, Minthara looked down at Sazza, her expression twisting. Her voice communicated sorrow, but her face told everyone it was only an act. The hungry expression she had given Vexir was now cast upon Sazza. With Vexir, it had been a look of hunger for power and control. With Sazza, it was a look of hunger for violence and death.

“Oh, Sazza,” she said. “You have made a GRAVE error, and it will be your last.” As she said this, her voice became vicious and guttural; like a growl. “My spiders are hungry, little one…” She leaned in closer, her smile twisting her face into a mask of pure psychotic evil. Her eyes gleamed in the darkness like red rubies.

Sazza recoiled in fear. “No, wait! I… I…”

“... but before they feast,” Minthara continued, straightening and softening once more. It was as if, in a moment, she had transformed from sick psychopath into Sazza’s best friend, “tell me where that grove is, and I may yet spare your life.”

Hope returned to the goblin female. “It’s past the bridge, to the east! Big ol’ gate ‘idden and covered in ivy! She knows the place.” She jerked a finger at Vexir. “She’s been there many times now, I’m sure. Don’ ‘urt me, Mistress. Please!”

Minthara then reached out and pet Sazza on the head like a dog. “My Dear Sazza, what will I do without my little pet?”

Sazza’s eyes pleaded with her. “You don’ wanna do withou’ your little pet, Mistress. You don’! Please! Please don’ ‘urt me!”

Then Minthara’s hand seized her hair roughly and twisted so that Sazza’s face was looking up into hers. Minthara’s visage was that of a murderer who is getting revenge on a hated enemy. “I will not hurt you,” she told her as her face lit up with delight. “My spiders will have that pleasure.” Minthara was exuding a demented pleasure as she said this.

Then she tossed Sazza roughly at the feet of the goblins in her quarters. Sazza recovered quickly and spun around on her knees. “No! I mucked up. I’m sorry! But I didn’t know who they woz… they didn’ tell me nothin’! I swear!”

Minthara looked from Sazza to Vexir. It was clear she was eager to hear how she might respond to such an accusation. Vexir also saw a warning in Minthara’s eyes. Play along, or die! Vexir was both afraid of Minthara and furious with Sazza’s treachery. The little beast had tried to stab her in the back. She had pretended she was stupid and ignorantly leading them to Minthara, but the whole time she’d planned on using Vexir and her companions to get back into Minthara’s good graces.

Vexir had no reason to spare Sazza. “I explained everything to her,” she coldly replied, playing along. “She’s just too stupid to understand.”

Minthara was pleased. “A liar as well as a fool? I hope you’re at least… DIGESTIBLE.” Again, as she concluded her sentence, her voice became ominous. It was clear she was going to enjoy hearing Sazza’s screams.

“NO!” cried Sazza. “It ain’t true! She’s lyin’ through ‘er teef! Them’s the bloody liars! Mistress! Please!” But Minthara only waved to her goblin minions to take her. The goblins in the room grabbed her roughly and started to drag her off out of Minthara’s chambers as Sazza cried, “Somebody ‘ELP!!!!”

Minthara then came to stand next to Vexir as her goblins dragged Sazza across the rickety bridge. “Care to watch the fun? Come,” she said, and she followed her goblins across the bridge.

Vexir looked at her companions. Wyll gave her a sharp look as if to say, “Why aren’t we just attacking her?” He kept glancing at Minthara’s back as the Drow strode confidently across the rickety bridge.

Vexir could only shake her head at him. It wasn’t the right time. Something inside her was urging her to NOT attack Minthara just yet. Was it the Absolute? Was it her own fear of the sinister Drow? She couldn’t be sure. Whatever the case, she found herself following along behind. Her companions did the same, each looking from one to the other as if trying to figure out what Vexir was thinking.

They arrived at the rickety bridge overlooking the pit just outside Ragzlin’s throne room. Sazza was still screaming for help as the goblins holding her stopped dead center. Many other goblins in the area heard Sazza’s cries, and they came to watch. They did so love witnessing executions. Even Ragzlin smiled and came to watch.

“Another failure?” he asked as he approached.

Minthara grinned. “One of the raiders we sent after those fool adventurers. Apparently, the entire raiding party is gone. They were killed at the entrance to the Druid’s Grove. Through sheer luck, however, this pathetic worm has brought me the information I need.”

“Mistress! PLEASE!” Sazza kept crying. Tears were streaming down her cheeks. Wyll watched with contempt. In his mind, Sazza’s death was righteous vindication. Astarion grinned with delight. He was enjoying everything immensely. Shadowheart was difficult to read. She just seemed cold and unmoved by Sazza’s pleas. Vexir, like Shadowheart, kept her expression rigid.

“She said the Druid’s Grove is past the bridge to the east,” she told Ragzlin. “Remember that place where there is ivy growing all over the stone walls? Remember how I said I thought there was something funny about it?”

Ragzlin nodded. “We kept looking and looking for any sign of magic or some sort of secret entrance, but we couldn’t find any.”

“Apparently, THAT is the entrance to the grove,” Minthara said. “Just as we suspected. Must be some powerful magic on the place for us to search it so thoroughly and still find nothing.”

Vexir found herself unable to resist. She added, “Silvanus has put some sort of magical shroud on the place. It is called the Emerald Grove, and it has been put under the care of some druid named Halsin. I was under the impression Halsin was captured by you. Is he still among the living here?”

Minthara regarded her coolly. “He is,” she replied. “He took the form of a bear and has been locked in the cages below. Fool thinks we have no clue who he is or what he is. We’ve let the goblins play around with him, so he thinks we are underestimating him. He’s trying to gather information about the Absolute, so we’ve been just feeding him tidbits of information here or there to keep him busy. With him away from his precious grove, we can move about more freely in this area. When the time comes, after his grove is destroyed, he will be quite surprised, I’m sure, when we suddenly come upon him in great numbers and...” Then she looked down into the pit. “... feed him to my spiders.”

She then turned to the goblins holding Sazza. “Speaking of which…” She gestured to her minions.

“NOOOOoooo!” Sazza screamed with all her might. “Mistress! I…” But that was the last of it. The goblins tossed her down into the pit some fifty feet below.

But she never hit the stony floor. Instead, she landed on a soft, sticky bed of webbing. Her screams echoed up from below to all who were watching. The goblins jumped up and down, yelping with delight as Minthara watched from the shadows of the bridge. Her red eyes reflected the light of some nearby torches. Her arms were folded across her chest as she watched with a sick grin on her face. She DID enjoy watching her spiders feed. It was one of life’s great pleasures.

Within moments, a giant spider raced out of some hidden nook across the webbing and attacked. Sazza gave a final squeal of pain and was silenced. A moment later, dozens of baby giant spiders swarmed all over her. This one would not be saved for later. The babies were hungry.

Vexir watched with her companions from beside Minthara. She was both repulsed and fascinated at the same time. She LOVED spiders, but there was something about that moment that unnerved her. There was something that was just wrong about it. She felt almost ashamed for having done nothing to stop it.

After all was said and done, Minthara finally turned to her. “Now. Back to business,” she said. “It seems that the inhabitants of the grove trust you. We can use that against them. You have a part to play in this slaughter. Return to the grove. When my raiding party approaches at nightfall, throw open the gate and signal me. Understand?”

Vexir didn’t take her eyes off of Sazza. She nodded. “I’ll get it done.”

Minthara smiled, absolutely pleased. “Excellent. When you give the signal, we will break them. The Absolute will reward us for this victory. You won’t regret it.” Then she turned to the goblins near her. “You. Go and round up our army. Gather every available goblin, bugbear and ogre, and meet me at the center of the camp. We will go in great numbers.” She looked at Ragzlin. “Who knows how strong these druids truly are? I will leave a small garrison here with you. Agreed?”

Ragzlin nodded. “Go with the blessing of the Absolute, and win us this victory. If you have need of me, I’ll be ready and waiting.”

Minthara chuckled lightly. “I won’t need you, I assure you.” Then she spun on her heel and strode off to prepare. As she went, she called to her minions within earshot to rally to her.

Ragzlin glanced at Vexir, grinning at her as if he knew something she did not. Then he nodded as if acknowledging her as one of his greatest allies, and he returned to his throne room with his entourage.

At last, Vexir was alone with her companions as they stood on the walkway above the spider pit. Wyll was the first to speak. “What in the Bloody Hells are you doing?” he asked. “Now we’re helping them slaughter the grove? That was NOT a part of the plan.”

Vexir shook her head, and she looked into Wyll’s eyes. “We will not discuss this here,” she told him. “Just trust me a bit longer. I still have a plan. Come with me.” Then she left the bridge and headed off through the temple, avoiding Minthara as the evil Drow opened the spider pit gate. She was coaxing her pets out, for she would take them with her to the grove for the slaughter.
Posted By: Zellin Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
The photoshop picture that was posted earlier looks better than the patch 5 silver eyeshadow but there's still more eyeshadow in the photoshop picture than the pre patch 5 Minthara who had even less eyeshadow than that;
That's because I literally painted new black eyeshadow on top of her silver eyeshadow and added a bit of gradient around to avoid creating clear boundaries.
It also seems that Larian changed the skin tone to lighter one. So eyeshadow may just look more prominent on her face now.
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
I think they want to make her seem rougher and more masculine with the new haircut and at the same time give her a bit of feminine charm with a makeup increase;
I personally have no problems with such approach, but for the good result there should be no amateur mistakes in the makeup. And painting whole eyelids and just them with silver is exactly that kind of a mistake. You either put very little of cosmetics that hide your skin entirely and have unnatural colors, either draw practically a mask on your face with such cosmetics. Everything in between is a school-girl playing with her mother's cosmetic bag.
Sorry for being that harsh, but that's how it is, Larian.
Posted By: Tara Grimface Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 02:46 PM
I'm curious is there anyone at all who likes the patch 5 eyeshadow change?; I just would like to know if there's anyone at all who has a preference for it.
Posted By: Zellin Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
What do you think of this (excerpt from my Fan Fiction: The Afflicted) SPOILER:
<...>
Sorry, big sorry, but since you asked I think that... I want you to stop inserting fanfiction in "suggestions & feedback" section. I'm personally reading this section to see what exactly people suggest for the game so I can add my +/- . And it is hard to digest and takes more time in a form of a fanfic.
Posted By: Imryll Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
The photoshop picture that was posted earlier looks better than the patch 5 silver eyeshadow but there's still more eyeshadow in the photoshop picture than the pre patch 5 Minthara who had even less eyeshadow than that;
That's because I literally painted new black eyeshadow on top of her silver eyeshadow and added a bit of gradient around to avoid creating clear boundaries.
It also seems that Larian changed the skin tone to lighter one. So eyeshadow may just look more prominent on her face now.
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
I think they want to make her seem rougher and more masculine with the new haircut and at the same time give her a bit of feminine charm with a makeup increase;
I personally have no problems with such approach, but for the good result there should be no amateur mistakes in the makeup. And painting whole eyelids and just them with silver is exactly that kind of a mistake. You either put very little of cosmetics that hide your skin entirely and have unnatural colors, either draw practically a mask on your face with such cosmetics. Everything in between is a school-girl playing with her mother's cosmetic bag.
Sorry for being that harsh, but that's how it is, Larian.

Looking at the screenshots (which could distort in-game colors), it seems to me that her skin tone is not only lighter, but less purple and more brown.
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 04:14 PM
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by GM4Him
What do you think of this (excerpt from my Fan Fiction: The Afflicted) SPOILER:
<...>
Sorry, big sorry, but since you asked I think that... I want you to stop inserting fanfiction in "suggestions & feedback" section. I'm personally reading this section to see what exactly people suggest for the game so I can add my +/- . And it is hard to digest and takes more time in a form of a fanfic.

then don't respond to it. No need to be a aggressive towards anyone that makes a suggestion you don't want to see.
Posted By: Tara Grimface Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by GM4Him
What do you think of this (excerpt from my Fan Fiction: The Afflicted) SPOILER:
<...>
Sorry, big sorry, but since you asked I think that... I want you to stop inserting fanfiction in "suggestions & feedback" section. I'm personally reading this section to see what exactly people suggest for the game so I can add my +/- . And it is hard to digest and takes more time in a form of a fanfic.

then don't respond to it. No need to be a aggressive towards anyone that makes a suggestion you don't want to see.

They were very polite about it; not aggressive at all in my opinion.
Posted By: Zellin Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
then don't respond to it. No need to be a aggressive towards anyone that makes a suggestion you don't want to see.
How many "sorry" I needed to put in front of it to make it understandable that it's not meant as an agression? I want to see his suggestions and I'm ready to provide a constructive reactions on them. But I'm not ready to read a whole chapter of literal fanfic and try to guess what is the suggestion there. That's what I'm talking about.
Posted By: Imryll Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by GM4Him
What do you think of this (excerpt from my Fan Fiction: The Afflicted) SPOILER:
<...>
Sorry, big sorry, but since you asked I think that... I want you to stop inserting fanfiction in "suggestions & feedback" section. I'm personally reading this section to see what exactly people suggest for the game so I can add my +/- . And it is hard to digest and takes more time in a form of a fanfic.

then don't respond to it. No need to be a aggressive towards anyone that makes a suggestion you don't want to see.


I rather think that Zellin has a point and that the problem is that we don't have a role-playing/tavern sub-forum where fan fiction would be a better fit and achieve greater prominence than it does buried in a topical forum. Such a forum could invite player art of all types, again allowing interested folks to see what their fellow players are creating.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 04:31 PM
Uhm ... can we return to topic, please? :-/
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by GM4Him
What do you think of this (excerpt from my Fan Fiction: The Afflicted) SPOILER:
<...>
Sorry, big sorry, but since you asked I think that... I want you to stop inserting fanfiction in "suggestions & feedback" section. I'm personally reading this section to see what exactly people suggest for the game so I can add my +/- . And it is hard to digest and takes more time in a form of a fanfic.

Great story!
You can publish your Minthara fanfiction in Fan club of Minthara
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=697736&page=23

Let's keep the discussion going. Our goal is to make Minthara great again (as before patch 5)
Posted By: Boblawblah Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 04:40 PM
edit: nevermind, this is a silly thread and i'm done with it
Posted By: vometia Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by Imryll
I rather think that Zellin has a point and that the problem is that we don't have a role-playing/tavern sub-forum where fan fiction would be a better fit and achieve greater prominence than it does buried in a topical forum. Such a forum could invite player art of all types, again allowing interested folks to see what their fellow players are creating.

One could be created if there was sufficient demand for it.

In the meantime, we prefer to be relaxed about what people can post (usual "within reason" caveat). My only input is that I think it would be considerate to put very large segments of text in spoiler tags if not directly on topic; and even then it's probably best to err on the side of making stuff easier to scroll.
Posted By: sinogy Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by sinogy
Well, sunshine, I don't care about your feelings.

You should. You've been suspended and warned multiple times before. Here on forth until the end of dawn, you will be respectful and polite towards other forum users. This is the last, and only warning I offer.


Fuck you. Some one calls me "asshole" and you suspend me, right? That means you agree with that some one. So, fuck you twice

I didn't see your post warning him/her against swearing but I am getting warning and suspension for saying "don't care about your feelings".
So, this means a) Swearing is ok in this forum then fuck you thrice
or
b) You discriminate between players which means either Larian policies allow it or you don't do your job properly.
So I am gonna report you and let Larian decide what is what.

Oh btw I am taking ss so you can delete whatever you want.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by sinogy
Well, sunshine, I don't care about your feelings.

You should. You've been suspended and warned multiple times before. Here on forth until the end of dawn, you will be respectful and polite towards other forum users. This is the last, and only warning I offer.


Fuck you. Some one calls me "asshole" and you suspend me, right? That means you agree with that some one. So, fuck you twice

I didn't see your post warning him/her against swearing but I am getting warning and suspension for saying "don't care about your feelings".
So, this means a) Swearing is ok in this forum then fuck you thrice
or
b) You discriminate between players which means either Larian policies allow it or you don't do your job properly.
So I am gonna report you and let Larian decide what is what.

Oh btw I am taking ss so you can delete whatever you want.

Calm down, everything is fine
Posted By: sinogy Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by sinogy
Well, sunshine, I don't care about your feelings.

You should. You've been suspended and warned multiple times before. Here on forth until the end of dawn, you will be respectful and polite towards other forum users. This is the last, and only warning I offer.


Fuck you. Some one calls me "asshole" and you suspend me, right? That means you agree with that some one. So, fuck you twice

I didn't see your post warning him/her against swearing but I am getting warning and suspension for saying "don't care about your feelings".
So, this means a) Swearing is ok in this forum then fuck you thrice
or
b) You discriminate between players which means either Larian policies allow it or you don't do your job properly.
So I am gonna report you and let Larian decide what is what.

Oh btw I am taking ss so you can delete whatever you want.

Calm down, everything is fine

No not for me. This is discrimination and I wanna know if discrimination is a Larian policy!

I am gonna put it on reddit and do everything to make sure people see this double standard here by a Larian employee.
Interesting, never noticed but I guess she used to have black/dark eye brows.
Posted By: The Composer Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by sinogy
Fuck you. Some one calls me "asshole" and you suspend me, right? That means you agree with that some one. So, fuck you twice

I didn't see your post warning him/her against swearing but I am getting warning and suspension for saying "don't care about your feelings".
So, this means
a) Swearing is ok in this forum then fuck you thrice or
b) You discriminate between players which means either Larian policies allow it or you don't do your job properly.

So I am gonna report you and let Larian decide what is what.

Oh btw I am taking ss so you can delete whatever you want.

People are responsible for their individual behavior and actions. Someone elses behavior doesn't excuse other behavior.

a) I asked you to be respectful.
b) I'm not employed by Larian, just a friendly neighborhood peacekeeper.

Context matters, and so does one's history and past records when it comes to moderation considerations. You're only proving my point and judge of character by how you choose to respond. But I'll give you one more chance to be nicer, call me crazy but I'd really like to see people just get along and be nice to eachother. If people continue to prefer to be angry keyboard-warriors, that's when moderation becomes necessary. So please don't continue to make it necessary.
Posted By: sinogy Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by sinogy
Fuck you. Some one calls me "asshole" and you suspend me, right? That means you agree with that some one. So, fuck you twice

I didn't see your post warning him/her against swearing but I am getting warning and suspension for saying "don't care about your feelings".
So, this means
a) Swearing is ok in this forum then fuck you thrice or
b) You discriminate between players which means either Larian policies allow it or you don't do your job properly.

So I am gonna report you and let Larian decide what is what.

Oh btw I am taking ss so you can delete whatever you want.

People are responsible for their individual behavior and actions. Someone elses behavior doesn't excuse other behavior.

a) I asked you to be respectful.
b) I'm not employed by Larian, just a friendly neighborhood peacekeeper.

Context matters, and so does one's history and past records when it comes to moderation considerations. You're only proving my point and judge of character by how you choose to respond. But I'll give you one more chance to be nicer, call me crazy but I'd really like to see people just get along and be nice to eachother. If people continue to prefer to be angry keyboard-warriors, that's when moderation becomes necessary. So please don't continue to make it necessary.


Someone elses behavior doesn't excuse other behaviour, huh? Then how come your double standard behavior is excused in response to my behavior? You clearly chose a side by warning me for saying "I don't care about your feelings" and not warning the other user for calling me "asshole" and "dick"!

a) You didn't ask other user to be respectful despite the fact that he/she had used swearing.
b) If not Larian then who made you moderator? Because I wanna reach to them about this issue.

You have no right to educate me because you clearly are making discrimination. You turn a blind eye to a user who called another user "asshole" and "dick". In which context is it appropriate to call a user "asshole" and "dick"? Explain to me in which context these words are fine to use against another user? If you think the other user somehow used these words in a right context then tell me do you also think I am an "asshole" and a "dick"?
Answer these questions openly.

Also, explain to me what does "angry keyboard-warrior" mean? Do you use it to insult me?
Posted By: The Composer Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 09:45 PM
I guess it is necessary.

If you believe other people are worth having moderation having a look at, there is a report button you should use for future reference.

Appendix: Please keep it civil and on topic. This thread has seen enough flags already, and it'll be closed if it continues.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 10:16 PM
The post for fan fic was my attempt to illustrate how I'd like to see Minthara both visually and character personality. Sorry if it was long.

Next time I'll jist post a link to the fan fic and reference the chapter and title so if you want to read you can.

But the point was to get feedback on the descriptions of the armor, her appearance, her personality, etc.

And no worries. I took no offense.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by The Composer
I guess it is necessary.

If you believe other people are worth having moderation having a look at, there is a report button you should use for future reference.

Appendix: Please keep it civil and on topic. This thread has seen enough flags already, and it'll be closed if it continues.

I hope there will be no more violations of forum rules in this topic. Friendship is Magic!
[Linked Image from i.ytimg.com]
Posted By: Zellin Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 11:19 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
The post for fan fic was my attempt to illustrate how I'd like to see Minthara both visually and character personality. Sorry if it was long.

Next time I'll jist post a link to the fan fic and reference the chapter and title so if you want to read you can.

But the point was to get feedback on the descriptions of the armor, her appearance, her personality, etc.

And no worries. I took no offense.
Ok. Thanks for understanding and explaining. You know in such a case maybe next time don't use the link, but quote the fanfic under spoiler with some elaboration and bold formatting on important parts? So impatient people like me can browse fast through it and get the idea.
So far I'm agreeing that Minthara would win from more eerie depiction.
Posted By: timebean Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 11:22 PM
I personally do not like the silver eyeshadow at all. I do not like things like white eyelashes either. They never look good in these games and make the eyes look weird by drowning out the shape.

And ye gods, she does look like David Bowie either way.
Posted By: sheffie01 Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 11:27 PM
I personally think she looks like Tilda Swinton, but Bowie and her have been compared numerous times before.
I like it, she looks colder, more evil, calculating, power-hungry, and sadistic.

[Linked Image from upload.wikimedia.org]

The former implementation looked like the default Drow character from the character builder. More distinctive this way. When I first noticed the redesign, I immediately thought that the reason they did it was to make her feel more special, not some generic character. I can't think of another important character in the game that has this "generic-feeling" design at the moment (EDIT: Maybe Nettie?). I find it immensely far-fetched that this would be because of some kind of hidden agenda.

I agree that the lashes feel a bit unnatural, but honestly, I don't really mind either way, I think there are more important and impactful topics to focus on in the game (no offense to the fan club :-D).

I'm surprised to see the amount of passion this topic generates though... Not pointing fingers, but I think some could benefit from a bit of level-headedness smile.
Posted By: Blackheifer Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 10/08/21 11:58 PM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by The Composer
I guess it is necessary.

If you believe other people are worth having moderation having a look at, there is a report button you should use for future reference.

Appendix: Please keep it civil and on topic. This thread has seen enough flags already, and it'll be closed if it continues.

I hope there will be no more violations of forum rules in this topic. Friendship is Magic!
[Linked Image from i.ytimg.com]

Taking this topic seriously is the mistake I tried to warn people about.

Now we have Bronies all up in here. is it Bronys or Bronies?
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 11/08/21 12:23 AM
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by The Composer
I guess it is necessary.

If you believe other people are worth having moderation having a look at, there is a report button you should use for future reference.

Appendix: Please keep it civil and on topic. This thread has seen enough flags already, and it'll be closed if it continues.

I hope there will be no more violations of forum rules in this topic. Friendship is Magic!
[Linked Image from i.ytimg.com]

Taking this topic seriously is the mistake I tried to warn people about.

Now we have Bronies all up in here. is it Bronys or Bronies?

What's your favorite pony?
My Favorite Pony - Princess Luna
[Linked Image from meme-arsenal.com]
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 11/08/21 12:30 AM
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by GM4Him
The post for fan fic was my attempt to illustrate how I'd like to see Minthara both visually and character personality. Sorry if it was long.

Next time I'll jist post a link to the fan fic and reference the chapter and title so if you want to read you can.

But the point was to get feedback on the descriptions of the armor, her appearance, her personality, etc.

And no worries. I took no offense.
Ok. Thanks for understanding and explaining. You know in such a case maybe next time don't use the link, but quote the fanfic under spoiler with some elaboration and bold formatting on important parts? So impatient people like me can browse fast through it and get the idea.
So far I'm agreeing that Minthara would win from more eerie depiction.

You know, that makes a lot of sense. I'm a writer, so it is always easiest for me to write out descriptive scenes and such to illustrate what I'm thinking, but I get why people might not like it. It's a scrolling nightmare.
Posted By: Black_Elk Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 11/08/21 02:54 AM
Originally Posted by sheffie01
The former implementation looked like the default Drow character from the character builder. More distinctive this way. When I first noticed the redesign, I immediately thought that the reason they did it was to make her feel more special, not some generic character. I can't think of another important character in the game that has this "generic-feeling" design at the moment (EDIT: Maybe Nettie?). I find it immensely far-fetched that this would be because of some kind of hidden agenda.

I agree that the lashes feel a bit unnatural, but honestly, I don't really mind either way, I think there are more important and impactful topics to focus on in the game (no offense to the fan club :-D).

I'm surprised to see the amount of passion this topic generates though... Not pointing fingers, but I think some could benefit from a bit of level-headedness smile.

Aside from the provocative thread title inviting unfortunate comparisons, I think this particular subject elicits a passionate response, because it's one of those rare occasions where we get to weigh in on aesthetic preferences and visual taste for character design.

Something that it usually kind of overlooked, or which tends to only happens after the fact, since most games of this sort are more fully cooked, but this one is still in EA. It would be like if they took a survey of all the BG2 portraits a year after that game came out and then changed one randomly. At which point I would have told the Bioware Art team to "please stop using the Thomas Kinkade color palette" for every single Char Portrait! You know with all that gold and pink lighting lol.

I think they probably changed Minthara's hair because they thought it was too close to Novice Brynna's haircut, you know the other Absolute gal who the PCs run into probably right before they run into Minthara, and who had the exact same Absolute Haircut... just in auburn red instead of white.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

It would be like if Dror Ragzlin had that seem baldpatch haircut that Novice Andrik is sporting. Like they just follow on too quickly in the story, with the one coming right after the other. Though in that case I would have prefered they change Brynna instead of Minthara, since she's a less important NPC and didn't really have a fan club like MInthara did. Of course players are going to feel more strongly about the main villains of the first act. Its always more important that the villains look cool, since they tend to be more iconic and we remember them more.
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 11/08/21 03:13 AM
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
I think they probably changed Minthara's hair because they thought it was too close to Novice Brynna's haircut, you know the other Absolute gal who the PCs run into probably right before they run into Minthara, and who had the exact same Absolute Haircut... just in auburn red instead of white.
Brynna? Who is this? I tried to remember for a long time before I realized. Obviously she's not very memorable.
The hairstyle is really similar, but it would be better if Larian changed it at Brynna's and not Minthara. Larian can swap their hairstyles in patch 6

And take away this strange makeup. The blue color also suited her better, made her more visually pleasing.

In any case, as a player, I am pleased that Larian decided to pay attention to Minthara, most likely they wanted to get feedback and are reading all this carefully. But it's better if it concerns quests and additional content, why change appearance what everyone already liked. Combined with her old hairstyle, she looked very good in blue armor, why do we need a new Dragon Age Inquisition? There were already all the "innovative" ideas about how female characters should look like, you see how the players did not like it.

Moreover, we are not talking about some hentai clothes etc, it was just much more pleasing to the eye. And this is important, given that this is an important character and a future companion that the player will often look at.

Imagine how the players would react if Larian decided to suddenly make Shadow Heart bald or with a mohawk and change her entire appearance. Who cares that this can be part of her rebellious nature and the consequence of complex internal contradictions. Or make Astarion more like Nosferatu...

All companions should be aesthetically pleasing.

In any case, if Larian decides to leave the current version of the appearance, it will be acceptable only if they came up with a very cool and long story with Minthara, where for some reason this particular version of the appearance will be more appropriate, and leaving the previous one would be REALLY inappropriate. The developers will have to work hard to keep the Fan club of Minthara not only did not decrease, but became larger! Will Larian be able to take on such a challenge?

If Larian just change appearance for no really good reason, it can be a big failure.
Posted By: Tara Grimface Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 11/08/21 08:28 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
I think they probably changed Minthara's hair because they thought it was too close to Novice Brynna's haircut, you know the other Absolute gal who the PCs run into probably right before they run into Minthara, and who had the exact same Absolute Haircut... just in auburn red instead of white.
Brynna? Who is this? I tried to remember for a long time before I realized. Obviously she's not very memorable.
The hairstyle is really similar, but it would be better if Larian changed it at Brynna's and not Minthara. Larian can swap their hairstyles in patch 6

And take away this strange makeup. The blue color also suited her better, made her more visually pleasing.

In any case, as a player, I am pleased that Larian decided to pay attention to Minthara, most likely they wanted to get feedback and are reading all this carefully. But it's better if it concerns quests and additional content, why change appearance what everyone already liked. Combined with her old hairstyle, she looked very good in blue armor, why do we need a new Dragon Age Inquisition? There were already all the "innovative" ideas about how female characters should look like, you see how the players did not like it.

Moreover, we are not talking about some hentai clothes etc, it was just much more pleasing to the eye. And this is important, given that this is an important character and a future companion that the player will often look at.

Imagine how the players would react if Larian decided to suddenly make Shadow Heart bald or with a mohawk and change her entire appearance. Who cares that this can be part of her rebellious nature and the consequence of complex internal contradictions. Or make Astarion more like Nosferatu...

All companions should be aesthetically pleasing.

In any case, if Larian decides to leave the current version of the appearance, it will be acceptable only if they came up with a very cool and long story with Minthara, where for some reason this particular version of the appearance will be more appropriate, and leaving the previous one would be REALLY inappropriate. The developers will have to work hard to keep the Fan club of Minthara not only did not decrease, but became larger! Will Larian be able to take on such a challenge?

If Larian just change appearance for no really good reason, it can be a big failure.

Minthara's face looked more natural in the first iteration and that really is the worst thing about patch 5 Minthara in my opinion; and I think that stands out the most of all; the voice actress does such a good job that seeing Minthara's facial expressions as she talked and during the cutscenes was very exciting; but the patch 5 garish eyeshadow really diminishes the effect of her facial expressions; less makeup creates a sort of seriousness in a visage I think; more genuine and less artificial; I think that's true in the real world too; we all remember that famous scene that some have been playing over and over again or at least before patch 5 for months now; when she says "tonight you are mine" and the game does a close up of her face and personally the impression in my mind was something akin to "what did she just say!?" and her facial expressions, the voice acting and the atmosphere in general was really surprising to me at the time; some might ask well what is the effect of giving Minthara not only an increase in eyeshadow but garish silver eyeshadow at that?

[img]https://64.media.tumblr.com/97c4a12...0c167c983bc7dae99e0f166c7fb318e8fc3.gifv[/img]
[img]https://64.media.tumblr.com/d23d65a...e94a91f074cb6962b5c8d68b46ad739a03f.gifv[/img]

In my opinion it makes her as a character seem less serious and honestly somewhat silly; as I stated in an earlier post Minthara is basically presented as a rough and tumble lass and a zealous cultist and by what we can see from patch 5 regardless of how difficult the journey, the fight, or the circumstances; one thing that she never forgets to do is to apply a large coating of bright silver eyeshadow around her eyes; she dazzles the reshade and heavy bloom effect users with magnificent radiance; surely this woman keeps stockpiles of silver eyeshadow at the ready in the Shattered Sanctum; I'm not even joking; what else are we supposed to think?

[Linked Image from i.redd.it]

I perceive in the patch 5 iteration of Minthara a worrying attempt to beautify an NPC by increasing the makeup on her face and this was a method that was used in Dragon Age 2 and Dragon Age Inquisition and a couple of other games that I can't remember offhand; where in my opinion some of the characters' natural beauty and faces were occluded by makeup; this is especially foolish when one considers the fact that Larian used real life models that they based in game faces upon and that is both wonderful and realistic; but when those same faces are slathered with garish makeup we can't actually appreciate the natural beauty of those faces now can we?; so even with real world scanned faces; the facial aesthetics can still be ruined through bad makeup choices and I really hope that doesn't happen.

Her hair is not as much of an issue as her makeup in my opinion though it does seem to be oddly neat for a crazed woman; it seems somewhat like a professional cut; maybe she has a goblin hairstylist who keeps it that way; the first iteration generic hairstyle seemed like something one might see on a crazed cultist; it seems ruffled, messy, and perhaps something that was self-cut at one point; though I do understand they want unique NPCs to have unique hairstyles, I would prefer if they gave her a messier, more discordant hairstyle; as of now David Bowie's hairstylist has traveled to Faerun and I suppose that's sort of interesting in it's own way.

That said the juxtaposition between her garish makeup and her what many might consider typically more masculine hairstyle; creates a conflict; are they trying to make her seem pretty or are they trying to make her seem more like a tough lass who can put on some armor and scrap; they cut her hair and yet increase her eyeshadow; it creates a situation in my opinion where players become confused; as though they're receiving mixed messages; and raises the question what does Larian want her to be aesthetically?
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Can you imagine? "omg, i need to make sure my hair is long and styled and i should put on my 6 inch heels and fishnets for the absolute when i'm leading this goblin army against the druids!"

She looks laughable by proud, female Drow Standarts in a Society which is basically to literally boasting female Superiority. Dot! wink

Faerun is not some mentally broken, twisted "New Age"-World for modern SJW Feminists or something. biggrin Many Drow would never accept this.

"HOWEVER",
in Case some Folks are reeeaaally horny to see her this Way,

lets say "she was punished" by having her Hair cut to "Male Length and Style" and so on,
only allowing her to grow it out again when she comes back Home victorious after leading the little Buggers successfully against whoever she is supposed to lead them.


Just ... ...
... ... just don't color her Hair now Bright-Green, Purple, or Bright- or Dark-Blue, okay? crazy
I have to say that the most notable change about patch 5 Minthara in my opinion is her eyeshadow and although she does have a new hairstyle; I don't think that nearly affects her appearance as much her increased eyeshadow and it's color which is bright silver. So from what we can see Minthara's eyeshadow has been substantially increased and changed from black to silver.

Here in the pre patch 5 face we can see the skin around her eyes is not occluded with eyeshadow; you can see her natural skin tone under and above her eyes; she has very little eye makeup on which is just black eyeshadow; it fits well; contrasts well with her skin; the pre patch 5 face looks very natural in my opinion.
[Linked Image from staticdelivery.nexusmods.com]

In Patch 5 her face in the same scene with silver eyeshadow; when I look at her my attention is drawn to her eyeshadow and yet I find that I cannot fully appreciate the aesthetic of her face properly because of it and it seems to lessen the gravity of her facial expressions; her face looks very happy in the below scene whereas in the pre patch 5 scene her face seems too be more serious and in my opinion seems to express more conviction.
[Linked Image from i.redd.it]

I've always been partial to natural looking faces and I don't use very much makeup; I think that too much can veil the natural beauty and details of a face. It seems hard in my opinion to take a villain with bright silver eyeshadow as seriously as a one with a more natural face with little to no eyeshadow; Minthara's patch 5 face seems more relaxed; we don't see as much stress and tension
in the eyes; instead our attention is drawn to her silver eyeshadow every time we look at her eyes; it stands out in a bad way in my opinion; it takes more away than it gives and that's a shame because Larian has chosen beautifully detailed faces for BG3's characters and NPCS.

Minthara has a lot of angry facial expressions that have far more gravity when her face looks natural. This is a very impactful scene below; you can clearly see her anger and her eyes are very prominent in the picture; you can read the emotion on her face.
[Linked Image from d.radikal.ru]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

Please share what you think about it, do you like it? Let's do some comparisons and talk about the contrast.
Her angry expression patch 5.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

Another one pre patch 5.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

Which one has more passion?
Another scene where Minthara seems really scary and psychotic; just look at that expressive face! How incredible is that?
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

With eyeshadow she looks not nearly as angry or psychotic.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

The former scares me a lot more than the latter.
She went from dark and menacing into a glittery drow drag queen. The eye makeup was definitely not a good choice for this character. She needs her old eyes back and a menacing drow armor.
Take this guy and change the skin and hair color and you'll end up with the new Minthara

[Linked Image from i1.sndcdn.com]
Now let's compare the two iterations of Minthara when she looks us up and down.
[Linked Image from s6.gifyu.com]
[Linked Image from s6.gifyu.com]

Here again I think the appearance of her eyes is very important; the 2nd iteration leaves more of an impression upon me; the eyeshadow really changes this for the worst I think.
I was never a big Minthara fan, generally speaking, but I definitely do NOT think she looks better now.
I don't really care about Minthara, but I get it, that her Fans don't Like the new look and I'm sorry for them.
How ever, is it really necessary to open up a third thread, when her looks were already discussed in the other two threads?
Originally Posted by Peranor
Take this guy and change the skin and hair color and you'll end up with the new Minthara

[Linked Image from i1.sndcdn.com]

I'll simply say that whoever made the decision to change her design does not know much about subtlety in facial aesthetics; sometimes more makeup is not always the best thing for a woman's appearance; I myself use very little eyeshadow; too much just looks unnatural and bright colors like garish silver; I think that's pretty awful; as for her hairstyle I think it is too neat for my taste; my preference would be a messier, more discordant hairstyle; I think that suits her crazed personality.
Ok, I got this game already on patch 5, and I'll say that she IS ugly AF, nothing about her made me think I should do an evil run for her. She is annoying to talk to, and seems incredibly boring. But, the previous design seems way more interesting and natural. I think they should have left her as she was, or at least only changed her hair, it's clear by the SS that they changed more than just the hair.
Originally Posted by fylimar
I don't really care about Minthara, but I get it, that her Fans don't Like the new look and I'm sorry for them.
How ever, is it really necessary to open up a third thread, when her looks were already discussed in the other two threads?

Nearly everyone was discussing her hair for the most part; I didn't see many people at all discussing the difference between the pre patch 5 and patch 5 facial aesthetic and the affect her makeup had on her facial expressions. Your welcome to vote and share your opinions.
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
Ok, I got this game already on patch 5, and I'll say that she IS ugly AF, nothing about her made me think I should do an evil run for her. She is annoying to talk to, and seems incredibly boring. But, the previous design seems way more interesting and natural. I think they should have left her as she was, or at least only changed her hair, it's clear by the SS that they changed more than just the hair.

I think the appeal about Minthara is that she's crazy and unpredictable; she's certainly not the most attractive woman in my opinion; but her natural facial features do hold a certain charisma; the sort of charisma you perceive when staring into the eyes of a psychopath; in Japan there's a word for eyes like those, Sanpaku eyes; it's like when you look at a person and there's really nothing strange about them until you look into their eyes and for some reason; you just get this feeling of certainty that the person is mentally unstable and that something is very wrong with them; it also could be an indication of trauma in a sense. Just about everyone I think uses eyes to read people; it's how we read emotions in people's faces; bright eyeshadow sort of lessens the intensity of those expressions. As I see it Minthara has Sanpaku eyes and they sort of act as an alert to the player that she is a crazy woman basically; so reading her face and especially her eyes is absolutely essential to a good experience with her in my opinion.
Originally Posted by 1varangian
She went from dark and menacing into a glittery drow drag queen. The eye makeup was definitely not a good choice for this character. She needs her old eyes back and a menacing drow armor.

I see a lot of RPGs that do this; but in my opinion it never actually makes the characters look better; since BG3 has real life scanned faces; their faces look very good but they are ruined when they apply superfluous makeup to them; I barely even use the eyeshadow for my own created characters because the natural faces look so good.
Interesting, the more I look at the pictures the more I get the feeling that the newer version looks older.
I only started after the patch, so I have never seen her ingame with the old look.
But comparing the two pictures, I do get the feeling that the old Minthara looked younger. Not that she looks old per se, but a bit older and more experienced?
Hard to put into words, sorry.
  • Her eyeshadow/make-up makes me think about certain "real-world stereotypes" even more. [Linked Image]
    Drow define themself with their dark skin and are proud of it.
    It is what seperates them from the filthy "surface Elven races". wink

    To see a Drow using a make-up that makes a part of her face highlighted brighter,
    or putting up make-up for an environment in which she is surrounded by nothing but lowly savages anyway - it feels very much out of place to me. She is not in Menzoberanzan anymore but somewhere at the surface, surrounded by "lesser non Drow beings".
    Why would she care what those inferior creatures think?
    She is not going to a party but to war for her mislead beliefs in the Absolute.

    In that sense I find her new design inferior to the former one as well. Unrelated to her hairstyle.


Funny fact Drow do not have natural red eyes!
Maybe some of them have, but the majority is getting them from Lolth. That is actual canon lore.
Any Drow that Lolth favours in general and deems useful for her cause, she grants those red eyes - which is also why they sometimes glow when a Drow gets worked up inside.

Lolth does that to make the Drow look more ferocious and threatening.
( A~nd even though I thought I find the video where this was stated... alas I cannot find it right now. -_- Fffff... anyways! =D )

I find it most amusing that Minthara still has red eyes regardless of her obvious breaking with Lolth.
That shows that a true evil Deity is only amused by "its propertys" little insane episodes and still favours those cute little puppies. grin
But even if Minthara's fate is true and Lolth might feel that...
... as long as Lolth deems her useful for her own Agenda ( aka 'eternal dominance, subjugation of all other races, conquering with force' etc. )
we can bet that the Queen of Spiders won't take the red eyes from her anytime soon.

One has to break entirely with evil or violence to truly make Lolth take their red eyes from them
like with those loyal to the cause of Eilistraee.
Originally Posted by Fox of Embers
Interesting, the more I look at the pictures the more I get the feeling that the newer version looks older.
I only started after the patch, so I have never seen her ingame with the old look.
But comparing the two pictures, I do get the feeling that the old Minthara looked younger. Not that she looks old per se, but a bit older and more experienced?
Hard to put into words, sorry.
It's side effect of pale brows and more prominent eyeshadow. I once had to makeup myself to look older and I just used more prominent makeup, worked like a charm.
"I find it most amusing that Minthara still has red eyes regardless of her obvious breaking with Lolth.
That shows that a true evil Deity is only amused by "its propertys" little insane episodes and still favours those cute little puppies. grin
But even if Minthara's fate is true and Lolth might feel that...
... as long as Lolth deems her useful for her own Agenda ( aka 'eternal dominance, subjugation of all other races, conquering with force' etc. )
we can bet that the Queen of Spiders won't take the red eyes from her anytime soon." - KeinSklave

That is interesting; I wonder if Larian will explain Minthara's red eyes in the future; I find it strange that she still keeps spiders; even though she's serving the absolute now; I would imagine she would know the spiders won't serve the absolute.
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Originally Posted by fylimar
I don't really care about Minthara, but I get it, that her Fans don't Like the new look and I'm sorry for them.
How ever, is it really necessary to open up a third thread, when her looks were already discussed in the other two threads?

Nearly everyone was discussing her hair for the most part; I didn't see many people at all discussing the difference between the pre patch 5 and patch 5 facial aesthetic and the affect her makeup had on her facial expressions. Your welcome to vote and share your opinions.
I'm sorry, but I'm not remotely interested in that character, she is just dead meat in my playthroughs. So hard pass. I was just surprised, that some minor character is worth three threads of discussions.

All I'm interested about Minthara, is her Amulett of Misty Steps. Let's hope, that won't get changed grin
okay this is getting silly, how many threads do we need in the suggestion forum about Minthara's makeup?
Let's take a look at Minthara in the sunlight.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

The brightness of white hair and silver eyeshadow in the patch 5 iteration seems to really be overwhelming in sunlight; I think the whiteness of the hair, lashes, and eyebrows would be sufficient for her Drow aesthetic; In the first iteration though the eyebrows are darker I don't think it would affect much if they were changed to the white of the patch 5 iteration; it really seems in my opinion when she's in the sunlight it's more aesthetically pleasing to the eye when the silver eyeshadow is not applied. Kazuliski might've used some reshade in one or both of these videos; but I think it's still a good comparison.
Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Originally Posted by fylimar
I don't really care about Minthara, but I get it, that her Fans don't Like the new look and I'm sorry for them.
How ever, is it really necessary to open up a third thread, when her looks were already discussed in the other two threads?

Nearly everyone was discussing her hair for the most part; I didn't see many people at all discussing the difference between the pre patch 5 and patch 5 facial aesthetic and the affect her makeup had on her facial expressions. Your welcome to vote and share your opinions.
I'm sorry, but I'm not remotely interested in that character, she is just dead meat in my playthroughs. So hard pass. I was just surprised, that some minor character is worth three threads of discussions.

All I'm interested about Minthara, is her Amulett of Misty Steps. Let's hope, that won't get changed grin

I guess it's a bit strange; but I think those of us who love crazy women with a passion love Minthara; I love looking into her crazy eyes and the voice actress's dominant tone makes it even better.
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
okay this is getting silly, how many threads do we need in the suggestion forum about Minthara's makeup?

The one that Onemanarmy made mostly had to with her hair and very few people were talking about her facial aesthetic, expressions and so forth; I also made this thread to compare and contrast pics and gifs with the community; so we can share our opinions about the effect the new aesthetic has on facial expressions, scenes and whatnot; so your opinions and your vote is welcome.
Originally Posted by Fox of Embers
Interesting, the more I look at the pictures the more I get the feeling that the newer version looks older.
I only started after the patch, so I have never seen her ingame with the old look.
But comparing the two pictures, I do get the feeling that the old Minthara looked younger. Not that she looks old per se, but a bit older and more experienced?
Hard to put into words, sorry.

The white eyebrows do make her look older in a sense; but I think the eyeshadow has a bigger effect in that it's harder to see the youthfulness of her eyes during her facial expressions; I think her face is actually quite a youthful face; but the patch 5 iteration presents such a white, silvery aesthetic by adding the eyeshadow to her already white hair that she has a rather strange look in my opinion.
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
That is interesting; I wonder if Larian will explain Minthara's red eyes in the future; I find it strange that she still keeps spiders; even though she's serving the absolute now; I would imagine she would know the spiders won't serve the absolute.
What is there to explain?
She is Lolthsworn Drow (Read as: She was born in some city that is devoted to Lolth). O_o

Either she is fugitive, who was unsucessful in their society (wich as far as i know, is something you dont wanna be) ...
Or she was simply kindaped and brain washed ... since she is after all tadpoled, and have no idea about it.
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
That is interesting; I wonder if Larian will explain Minthara's red eyes in the future; I find it strange that she still keeps spiders; even though she's serving the absolute now; I would imagine she would know the spiders won't serve the absolute.
What is there to explain?
She is Lolthsworn Drow (Read as: She was born in some city that is devoted to Lolth). O_o

Either she is fugitive, who was unsucessful in their society (wich as far as i know, is something you dont wanna be) ...
Or she was simply kindaped and brain washed ... since she is after all tadpoled, and have no idea about it.

I was referring to KeinSklave's statement.

"I find it most amusing that Minthara still has red eyes regardless of her obvious breaking with Lolth.
That shows that a true evil Deity is only amused by "its propertys" little insane episodes and still favours those cute little puppies. grin
But even if Minthara's fate is true and Lolth might feel that...
... as long as Lolth deems her useful for her own Agenda ( aka 'eternal dominance, subjugation of all other races, conquering with force' etc. )
we can bet that the Queen of Spiders won't take the red eyes from her anytime soon."

I thought it was interesting; yes I do know she's Lolthsworn.
Here's some gifs of her when she uses her illithiad tadpole during the goblin attack.
[Linked Image from s6.gifyu.com]
[Linked Image from s6.gifyu.com]

I think the patch 5 Minthara's white eyebrows and silver eyeshadow might be contrasted better if she had a darker skin tone; maybe, maybe not.
After looking at this image way to long, I think I spot a strong difference, aside from the make up.

I think the new version has more pronounced wrinkles on her forhead and even the wrinkels next to the mouth seem more pronounced.
Also, the thinner eyebrows also help.
That, together with the brighter skin, makes her look older to me. For whatever reason I seem to associate lighter skin with higher age when it comes to dark elves. Not even sure why..

Probably much strengthened by the make up, like you said.
Originally Posted by Fox of Embers
After looking at this image way to long, I think I spot a strong difference, aside from the make up.

I think the new version has more pronounced wrinkles on her forhead and even the wrinkels next to the mouth seem more pronounced.
Also, the thinner eyebrows also help.
That, together with the brighter skin, makes her look older to me. For whatever reason I seem to associate lighter skin with higher age when it comes to dark elves. Not even sure why..

Probably much strengthened by the make up, like you said.

Yes her forehead wrinkles are pretty noticeable; though maybe they're just shown more with her shorter hairstyle; her previous hair covered her forehead more. It could be that the darker drow skin tones appear smoother than the lighter ones though I'm not sure; it seems that way in the character creator for me at least.
I also agree she looked better before, Make-up or not.
I did something, I got her on Character creation with customization mod. Then I made a comparison, note that the silver eyeshadow is still there, I couldn't remove it. But even with that, if the eyebrow is darker instead of white, it already helps a lot. however, I must admit that the long hair fits her way more than the short one in my personal opinion.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
I did something, I got her on Character creation with customization mod. Then I made a comparison, note that the silver eyeshadow is still there, I couldn't remove it. But even with that, if the eyebrow is darker instead of white, it already helps a lot. however, I must admit that the long hair fits her way more than the short one in my personal opinion.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Wow that does look less jarring; her eyebrows are contrasted more from her eyeshadow because they're darker; when the eyebrows are white their appearance sort of melts into the silvery aesthetic of her eyeshadow such that the white eyebrows are less noticeable; Larian should definitely provide some contrast somehow to make Minthara's face look more balanced; yes and the
ruffled hairstyle does look good on her; good job modding; I'm gonna have to try doing some myself; it's been a while.
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Here's some gifs of her when she uses her illithiad tadpole during the goblin attack.

I think the patch 5 Minthara's white eyebrows and silver eyeshadow might be contrasted better if she had a darker skin tone; maybe, maybe not.

It's impressive how she turns from a 15 year old boy to an 80 year old by smiling alone.
From "a secret make a woman woman" to "extreme feminist".
Who the fuck think this change is a good idea?
This is the thread! Thank you. It is necessary I think because it captures more the spirit of what I'd prefer to discuss, which are the actual visual aesthetics and not talking about it as a scarecrow for something else.

Yes I completely agree, the issue is primarily in the eyes, lashes, make-up. The whole aesthetic carries much better in the previous model. The coloring of the outfit, as well as the length of the old hair. Her character is stronger when more of her model is in shadow. Even in fully lit broad daylight, like the last post on the previous page, you can totally see what's going on.

Our perception of color changes based on the colors that surround it. The new modelling outfit design just makes everything about her seem muted and midrange, compared to the previous version.
Calling it as it is, that is a sign of Woke people who hate "normies" and all normal beauty standarts.
If those Woke people do not get booted quick at Larian it will be a DISASTER for sure and hurt the selling of the game.
Because the product consumer around the world is very tired of this.

The majority of people do not like Woke styled characters of both genders. They are cringe and offensive in itself.
More scarecrowing? Everyone understands the points being made, but it does little to help the overall argument against the changes. You want her to be beautiful, a real lady/drow? ok got it. But other people have different standards of beauty, or maybe think that beauty is not necessarily the goal here, but perhaps something else like a sense of menace, so now we're at an impasse. But if you just focus on what you don't like rather than wrapping it in those other things, it's possible to have a conversation about the art that doesn't just degenerate into culture politics in like 2 seconds. When you imply that such and such a visual aesthetic is an endorsement of a certain worldview or whatever, you lose traction with half the audience that thinks you are reading into it things which aren't really there. Or maybe they will dismiss you on the grounds that your culture politics don't seem to align with their own, and so they choose the new look just be contrarian in that way. Relying on crib terms like "woke" and then threatening the specter of failed sales or all caps disaster to make your points, substituting your own view for that of product consumers around the world, it just makes many peoples eyes gloss over too. Sorry, but that's what happens. It might actually be possible to change a couple minds on the specific point at issue, but drag in all the rest of that stuff and you lose the argument before it even starts. The reason there are 3 threads now, is because they keep getting derailed by people trying to be social provocateurs, and for some reason choosing this Minthara molehill as the one to die on. I mean everyone here is a visual traditionalist already, at least in the sense that the BG3 art is all figurative and grounded in the traditional. It's not wading into conceptualism or unmoored by abstraction from any way to actually talk about it as art without relying on philosophy. But whatever, I guess some of these divides are just totally intractable now and this stuff is going to be a ubiquitous feature of modern life for anything that involves criticism of any sort. But seriously, we're here talking about the makeup right now. I don't think my preference for black eyeliner over silver eyeliner in this particular instance says anything whatsoever about my views on gender, or women, or normality. Or I don't know, maybe it actually does, but that conversation probably isn't terribly interesting and its unlikely to move anyone in the art department. So why does that need to get inserted into the conversation? It doesn't. It really doesn't.

The main point in favor of the old makeup haircut and outfit (over the new makeup, haircut and outfit), is that the old look produced better cast shadows and made the figure appear more vignetted in shadow. They seemed to hold better both in low light conditions and in full light conditions, as evidence from the many side by sides in this thread. The play off the environment lighting was stronger, whether that light is scattering blue or flickering orange. The animations were stronger too. Everything about her appearance was bolder and more impactful in the previous rendering. Regardless of whether one finds Minthara objectively hot or not, or thinks that's important for whatever reason. They don't need to make the cover of vogue italia here, but I think they should aim for a good villainous aesthetic since this is one of the main villains in act 1. You know, if you're looking for a tradtion, how about long tradition of villainous looks from D&D fantasy art, since that's the only one that should really matter here.
Originally Posted by KeinSklave
Calling it as it is, that is a sign of Woke people who hate "normies" and all normal beauty standarts.
If those Woke people do not get booted quick at Larian it will be a DISASTER for sure and hurt the selling of the game.
Because the product consumer around the world is very tired of this.

The majority of people do not like Woke styled characters of both genders. They are cringe and offensive in itself.

let me get this straight. A female character having short hair and makeup you don't like is "woke", and it's cringe and offensive. Do you hear yourself? "normal beauty standards"? What is that exactly?
Not suggest that anyone is wrong, but just that some tacts are more persuasive than others. Like if you actually had the goal of say reverting the appearance. If the issue has been all wrapped in other things by then, it makes it harder for the designer to make a change without knocking into a hornets nest.

I think a good villain looks more villainous when the face and figure is in shadow, and certain details are left suggested or up to the imagination to fill. This not just for villains, but especially then. Larian said when they started EA that they were interested in feedback for the darkside path. So that's still in mind as well.

Can you imagine how happy it would make many players, if Minthara's armor was black?!

And then they could you know, have some black armor that looked badass too if they wanted, even if Minthara got merc'd on site? I mean that's an instant win. Everyone would love it.

I think the rocker hair rocked way harder, she had a way more metal look with that do. But that's not the whole nine, I mean if she was in black armor and it looked legit, I probably would let the eyeliner slide a bit more. I just think as a complete thing, the new changes don't mesh as well, and throw off a way different vibe. Where before she was nearly there, she just needed her own badass duds to match the rest of her look. Oh well. Hopefully this is just like a teaser tester, and they come back with something straight glorious, like it was just an inside joke misdirection or something, before the big reveal in patch 6? lol
Originally Posted by <Redacted>
<Redacted>

Impossible, those ppl search for any excuse to talk about it, no matter where.
In the compare contrasts, the most noticeable differences are in the lighting and how the different contours and color choices affect the overall impression.

There also seems to be a bit less saturation generally in any of the comparisons showing the new Minthara. Not sure if that is from the monitor or just slight differences in how the cinematics are cueing off the environment/environmental lighting, the fact that she's in a slightly different spot, or something they changed in the overall lighting?

But the facial expressions and modelling seems largely unchanged. The wrinkles for example, seem to come from just more of the model being exposed. Or the lightness of the face/neck, often seems to be because more of the contours are now set against the the environment rather than the white hair, which creates different lines. The brow and neck appear lighter because there are fewer cast shadows there.

Having more reflective and light colors on the brow and in the eyesockets also creates like visual jitter, that just makes it look less fully rendered. All I see is the artifacts, and its too busy. Get's in the way by calling too much attention to itself.

The shoulders and the rest of the dressed character below the neck, pop more, because they use warmer colors that also seem less saturated overall. It's like the midrange values on the whole figure were punched up and the overall contrast reduced as a result. We see more of what's there, but it reads flatter, which is what happens when you blow out the midrange.

The issue with how the face reads in the cheeks and ears is just that there is less there breaking it up, so it appears more plastic and video game, than gritty cinematic. Grain can come in also sorts of ways. I think those things are not facial expression but they contribute to the overall impression which plays off the face.

In painting they tell you to use a black mirror, not just because it sounds cool, but because it knocks away extraneous detail, allows one to see a simpler read on the whole impression. Something like that would help with Minthara. Like they're already noodling away at the details around the eyes, when they still need to block in the main figure and choose a value range.

Everything changes when you change the colors of the clothing. We don't experience any of it in isolation, it all keys of everything else. So I think they should go back to basics. Start with the figure, put her in black first. Then see how the rest reads. Maybe that alone would be enough to fix what's bugging me about the newer iteration?

Black Armor and Black eyeliner!

That's the battle cry for the next draft hehe. Hopefully anyway, cause I think she could look really cool that way, and the armor set would ice it for sure.

Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Here's some gifs of her when she uses her illithiad tadpole during the goblin attack.
[Linked Image from s6.gifyu.com]
[Linked Image from s6.gifyu.com]

I think the patch 5 Minthara's white eyebrows and silver eyeshadow might be contrasted better if she had a darker skin tone; maybe, maybe not.

Originally Posted by Avallonkao
I did something, I got her on Character creation with customization mod. Then I made a comparison, note that the silver eyeshadow is still there, I couldn't remove it. But even with that, if the eyebrow is darker instead of white, it already helps a lot. however, I must admit that the long hair fits her way more than the short one in my personal opinion.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Let's take a look at Minthara in the sunlight.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

The brightness of white hair and silver eyeshadow in the patch 5 iteration seems to really be overwhelming in sunlight; I think the whiteness of the hair, lashes, and eyebrows would be sufficient for her Drow aesthetic; In the first iteration though the eyebrows are darker I don't think it would affect much if they were changed to the white of the patch 5 iteration; it really seems in my opinion when she's in the sunlight it's more aesthetically pleasing to the eye when the silver eyeshadow is not applied. Kazuliski might've used some reshade in one or both of these videos; but I think it's still a good comparison.

Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
I have to say that the most notable change about patch 5 Minthara in my opinion is her eyeshadow and although she does have a new hairstyle; I don't think that nearly affects her appearance as much her increased eyeshadow and it's color which is bright silver. So from what we can see Minthara's eyeshadow has been substantially increased and changed from black to silver.

Here in the pre patch 5 face we can see the skin around her eyes is not occluded with eyeshadow; you can see her natural skin tone under and above her eyes; she has very little makeup on; if none at all for that matter; if she does you can barely notice it; the pre patch 5 face looks very natural in my opinion.
[Linked Image from staticdelivery.nexusmods.com]

In Patch 5 her face in the same scene with silver eyeshadow; when I look at her my attention is drawn to her eyeshadow and yet I find that I cannot fully appreciate the aesthetic of her face properly because of it and it seems to lessen the gravity of her facial expressions; her face looks very happy in the below scene whereas in the pre patch 5 scene her face seems too be more serious and in my opinion seems to express more conviction.
[Linked Image from i.redd.it]

I've always been partial to natural looking faces and I don't use very much makeup; I think that too much can veil the natural beauty and details of a face. It seems hard in my opinion to take a villain with bright silver eyeshadow as seriously as a one with a more natural face with little to no eyeshadow; Minthara's patch 5 face seems more relaxed; we don't see as much stress and tension
in the eyes; instead our attention is drawn to her silver eyeshadow every time we look at her eyes; it stands out in a bad way in my opinion; it takes more away than it gives and that's a shame because Larian has chosen beautifully detailed faces for BG3's characters and NPCS.

Minthara has a lot of angry facial expressions that have far more gravity when her face looks natural. This is a very impactful scene below; you can clearly see her anger and her eyes are very prominent in this pictures; you can read the emotion on her face.
[Linked Image from d.radikal.ru]

Please share what you think about it, do you like it? Let's do some comparisons and talk about the contrast.
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
Originally Posted by <Redacted>
<Redacted>

Impossible, those ppl search for any excuse to talk about it, no matter where.

Yeah I kinda thought this would happen; but as long things don't get too chaotic this thread might survive until August 22 when the voting results come in; Lord willing.
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Here's some gifs of her when she uses her illithiad tadpole during the goblin attack.

I think the patch 5 Minthara's white eyebrows and silver eyeshadow might be contrasted better if she had a darker skin tone; maybe, maybe not.

It's impressive how she turns from a 15 year old boy to an 80 year old by smiling alone.

It really shows the power of bad makeup choices; I'll probably put up some more compare and contrast shots of her facial expressions eventually.
Originally Posted by Street Hero
From "a secret make a woman woman" to "extreme feminist".
Who the fuck think this change is a good idea?

Whoever it was should learn how to do makeup in my opinion; they made the brightest Drow I've ever seen.
Drows have white eyebrows right? Other than that, don't really care about the makeup or not. Curious though if she would have the new drow face tats or not. Or if that's not a thing and its lore for another universe...
Originally Posted by fallenj
Drows have white eyebrows right? Other than that, don't really care about the makeup or not. Curious though if she would have the new drow face tats or not. Or if that's not a thing and its lore for another universe...

Can't really remember many drows with tattoos. Might be another plane.

I do find the feminism arguement weird, considering we talk about a women who grew up in a straw feminist society. For me, every argument against a drow design based on feminism falls flat, when we consider that the Drow where based on a parody of (extrem) feminism.


On topic a bit more, I am actually undecided.
When I put aside my optical preferences in female characters, I am starting to kinda like the new look.
Obviously, she could be improved, but her looking older makes her more believeable to me. But I really liek the thread, lots to learn for me here. =)


I also want to add that many male npcs also could use soem overhauls.
In my humble (and probably biased) view, most humans should have some sort of beard. Beardlessness is for children and elves!
Or, humans who have more contact with elves should usually have beards, humans more in contact with dwarves should usually be shaven.
Originally Posted by KeinSklave
Calling it as it is, that is a sign of Woke people who hate "normies" and all normal beauty standarts.
If those Woke people do not get booted quick at Larian it will be a DISASTER for sure and hurt the selling of the game.
Because the product consumer around the world is very tired of this.

The majority of people do not like Woke styled characters of both genders. They are cringe and offensive in itself.

Hopefully someone at Larian will read this thread and take the suggestions and votes into consideration; comparing and contrasting, hopefully it will point out the widely perceived faults of the patch 5 iteration of Minthara; myself I've never been keen on politics; I don't know much about it and I don't really keep track of it; but I had the impression feminism promoted natural female beauty I could be wrong; but we certainly can't appreciate Minthara's natural female facial features with the patch 5 makeup increase.
I mean in the old one she had a vibe like Drow Joan Jett or something. Or, I don't know, I guess she might still be a Drow Pat Benatar Heartbreaker with those glam eyes now, but then they went and changed her hair too? Just kinda loses it in the overall impression for me. Even with more of the absolute neck tat showing, she somehow seems way less hard. She looked boss before and metal, now she looks all middle management casual friday and easy listening. Down to the pressed collar lol

The new armor looks like a rough draft version of the armor from before. You can see how the collar texture seems all muddled now, and the rings and belting looks all like cardboard. Even the cut seems like it hasn't been tailored. It's all boxy in the arms now. Maybe they did change the torso model, but I think its just the armor set. The trim where the arms connect to the torso, It makes her arms look twice as wide, and her spine like its in a totally different position in all these standing shots. The gestural sweep is different now making it feel like she has a different posture or a different build. The effect was created mainly by shadows, and different tangent lines, and color contrast rather than the underdrawing of the model, which is what seeing the new one makes clear to me.

The contours especially around her head, they look more cartoonish in the new version, because they are almost all hard edges now. Before the edges were broken up by cast shadows, or else the hair was breaking them up, or the makeup was breaking them up, or they were lost in the darker colors and values of her old clothing.

Hard edges flatten an image, even 3d images like the ones we're looking at. They got rid of the lost edges and soft edges, especially noticeable now around the ears and neck and so the result is that the total image loses depth. The clothing color choice exacerbates this further, by using tones that don't set up nearly as much contrast. All the colors bleed into each other in our heads, making the overall impression tonally warmer, which is not really what you want for a villain.

Remake the armor, but try it in black. Like with black trim instead of red. Or black belting instead of brown. I think the results would be much stronger. They chose a really poor red too, its garish next her skin tone and the browns. If her armor was going to be red, that's like the most boring red they could have chosen. It was better in purple. It would be best in black.

Watch how quickly the whole impression then shifts and throws the makeup and everything else in a different light again. They should dial her get up, so it can play into the rest of her design. Black armor would be the easiest way to make everyone applaud whatever ends up happening with the face. Especially if the PC could loot it from her! Easy win
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
In the compare contrasts, the most noticeable differences are in the lighting and how the different contours and color choices affect the overall impression.

There also seems to be a bit less saturation generally in any of the comparisons showing the new Minthara. Not sure if that is from the monitor or just slight differences in how the cinematics are cueing off the environment/environmental lighting, the fact that she's in a slightly different spot, or something they changed in the overall lighting?

But the facial expressions and modelling seems largely unchanged. The wrinkles for example, seem to come from just more of the model being exposed. Or the lightness of the face/neck, often seems to be because more of the contours are now set against the the environment rather than the white hair, which creates different lines. The brow and neck appear lighter because there are fewer cast shadows there.

Having more reflective and light colors on the brow and in the eyesockets also creates like visual jitter, that just makes it look less fully rendered. All I see is the artifacts, and its too busy. Get's in the way by calling too much attention to itself.

The shoulders and the rest of the dressed character below the neck, pop more, because they use warmer colors that also seem less saturated overall. It's like the midrange values on the whole figure were punched up and the overall contrast reduced as a result. We see more of what's there, but it reads flatter, which is what happens when you blow out the midrange.

The issue with how the face reads in the cheeks and ears is just that there is less there breaking it up, so it appears more plastic and video game, than gritty cinematic. Grain can come in also sorts of ways. I think those things are not facial expression but they contribute to the overall impression which plays off the face.

In painting they tell you to use a black mirror, not just because it sounds cool, but because it knocks away extraneous detail, allows one to see a simpler read on the whole impression. Something like that would help with Minthara. Like they're already noodling away at the details around the eyes, when they still need to block in the main figure and choose a value range.

Everything changes when you change the colors of the clothing. We don't experience any of it in isolation, it all keys of everything else. So I think they should go back to basics. Start with the figure, put her in black first. Then see how the rest reads. Maybe that alone would be enough to fix what's bugging me about the newer iteration?

Black Armor and Black eyeliner!

That's the battle cry for the next draft hehe. Hopefully anyway, cause I think she could look really cool that way, and the armor set would ice it for sure.
[/quote]

I do think black armor is a good choice for her; especially with a color scheme similar to the drow studded leather armor that is already in the game; I think their patch 5 theme of a brighter aesthetic of a red armor, silver makeup, light Drow skin and white hair is unappealing in all lighting conditions; I think basically all Drow skin tones look better in dark purples, blues and browns.
In regard to eyeshadow the pre patch 5 Minthara seems to have used just a little black eyeliner; but I think black eyeshadow could also lessen the intensity of her facial expressions; though peradventure not as much as garish silver would.

Zellin managed to color the silver around Minthara's eyes to black with photoshop it does look somewhat better but still not as natural as the pre patch 5 Minthara.
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Here in pre patch 5 her frown is very evident; that anger on her face is expressed extremely well.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
I mean in the old one she had a vibe like Drow Joan Jett or something. Or, I don't know, I guess she might still be a Drow Pat Benatar Heartbreaker with those glam eyes now, but then they went and changed her hair too? Just kinda loses it in the overall impression for me. Even with more of the absolute neck tat showing, she somehow seems way less hard. She looked boss before and metal, now she looks all middle management casual friday and easy listening. Down to the pressed collar lol

The new armor looks like a rough draft version of the armor from before. You can see how the collar texture seems all muddled now, and the rings and belting looks all like cardboard. Even the cut seems like it hasn't been tailored. It's all boxy in the arms now. Maybe they did change the torso model, but I think its just the armor set. The trim where the arms connect to the torso, It makes her arms look twice as wide, and her spine like its in a totally different position in all these standing shots. The gestural sweep is different now making it feel like she has a different posture or a different build. The effect was created mainly by shadows, and different tangent lines, and color contrast rather than the underdrawing of the model, which is what seeing the new one makes clear to me.

The contours especially around her head, they look more cartoonish in the new version, because they are almost all hard edges now. Before the edges were broken up by cast shadows, or else the hair was breaking them up, or the makeup was breaking them up, or they were lost in the darker colors and values of her old clothing.

Hard edges flatten an image, even 3d images like the ones we're looking at. They got rid of the lost edges and soft edges, especially noticeable now around the ears and neck and so the result is that the total image loses depth. The clothing color choice exacerbates this further, by using tones that don't set up nearly as much contrast. All the colors bleed into each other in our heads, making the overall impression tonally warmer, which is not really what you want for a villain.

Remake the armor, but try it in black. Like with black trim instead of red. Or black belting instead of brown. I think the results would be much stronger. They chose a really poor red too, its garish next her skin tone and the browns. If her armor was going to be red, that's like the most boring red they could have chosen. It was better in purple. It would be best in black.

Watch how quickly the whole impression then shifts and throws the makeup and everything else in a different light again. They should dial her get up, so it can play into the rest of her design. Black armor would be the easiest way to make everyone applaud whatever ends up happening with the face. Especially if the PC could loot it from her! Easy win

The red one certainly seems duller.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

Very strange decision they made for her patch 5 armor colors.
Personally, I find that the Minthara patch 5 does not have the same charisma and the same seriousness / gravity as its previous version. I do not stick at all, even after a period of in-game adaptation, to this version.
"For the absolute!" Happy and angry versions!
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

"I started planning a new Final Fantasy with the themes of a story of an angry man" - Tetsuya Nomura
[Linked Image from i1.wp.com]

It is a must that Minthara looks good angry; in my opinion.
So, I didn't know Astarion would approve of following the Absolute. Time to make sure he is always dead in my game from now on. But back to topic, I was watching videos and comparing her again as well. Even her facial expressions seem better before, I can't say why, it just looks... better, more interesting. She had the air of superiority that fails her with the new design.
Yes, maybe her new slightly less constricted and more frail/human look is better now than it was before, since it apparently slightly detracts from the "beauty" of her retrograde storyline.

Sorry, but you can't really separate the aesthetics of someone's story from their face. I think her previous look was aesthetically more functional/traditional/regressive within her 'M. Butterfly' -type of story, which is where her perceived beauty, or lack of it, lies. Zooming in on bad makeup, hairstyles etc. is just another way to avoid tackling the "sacrificial idiot foreign madwoman"- aesthetics of her storyline. Based on reactions to her new look, it appears she was more palatable sacrifice as long as her looks were more in line with her crude characterization as a fanatical, one-dimensional, morally reprehensible, subjugated and mentally shattered foreigner: a psychopath with subjugated "mad eyes" and corresponding makeup, that, if we believe OP, previously signaled both psychosis and psychopathy(psychosis and psychopathy are two totally different types of "crazy" btw), at the same time.

BG3 slightly modernizes this sacrificial storyline mold in the sense that it allows the player to join Minthara in sipping the flayer cult squick-koolaid and doomer romance her as the romantic proxy of the new emerging squick god.
Originally Posted by Fox of Embers
Originally Posted by fallenj
Drows have white eyebrows right? Other than that, don't really care about the makeup or not. Curious though if she would have the new drow face tats or not. Or if that's not a thing and its lore for another universe...

Can't really remember many drows with tattoos. Might be another plane.

I do find the feminism arguement weird, considering we talk about a women who grew up in a straw feminist society. For me, every argument against a drow design based on feminism falls flat, when we consider that the Drow where based on a parody of (extrem) feminism.


On topic a bit more, I am actually undecided.
When I put aside my optical preferences in female characters, I am starting to kinda like the new look.
Obviously, she could be improved, but her looking older makes her more believeable to me. But I really liek the thread, lots to learn for me here. =)


I also want to add that many male npcs also could use soem overhauls.
In my humble (and probably biased) view, most humans should have some sort of beard. Beardlessness is for children and elves!
Or, humans who have more contact with elves should usually have beards, humans more in contact with dwarves should usually be shaven.

I wouldn't say drows have much in common with the most 'radical' feminists, at least as far as the topic at hand is concerned. We're talking about a society so into vanity that they actually breed for good looks. A female matriarch/scion who cuts her hair and dyes it pink should lowkey still look better than the average surface elf, fairly so at that.
Originally Posted by Innateagle
I wouldn't say drows have much in common with the most 'radical' feminists, at least as far as the topic at hand is concerned. We're talking about a society so into vanity that they actually breed for good looks. A female matriarch/scion who cuts her hair and dyes it pink should lowkey still look better than the average surface elf, fairly so at that.
Well, they developed. But I always felt they where, at the beginning, an insulting parody of feminism. Thus my comment.
The beginning of D&D had some troubling parts, which are luckily gone now.
But sorry, I did not wish to derail the thread overly.
Originally Posted by IdPreferNotTo
Yes, maybe her new slightly less constricted and more frail/human look is better now than it was before, since it apparently slightly detracts from the "beauty" of her retrograde storyline.

Sorry, but you can't really separate the aesthetics of someone's story from their face. I think her previous look was aesthetically more functional/traditional/regressive within her 'M. Butterfly' -type of story, which is where her perceived beauty, or lack of it, lies. Zooming in on bad makeup, hairstyles etc. is just another way to avoid tackling the "sacrificial idiot foreign madwoman"- aesthetics of her storyline. Based on reactions to her new look, it appears she was more palatable sacrifice as long as her looks were more in line with her crude characterization as a fanatical, one-dimensional, morally reprehensible, subjugated and mentally shattered foreigner: a psychopath with subjugated "mad eyes" and corresponding makeup, that, if we believe OP, previously signaled both psychosis and psychopathy(psychosis and psychopathy are two totally different types of "crazy" btw), at the same time.

BG3 slightly modernizes this sacrificial storyline mold in the sense that it allows the player to join Minthara in sipping the flayer cult squick-koolaid and doomer romance her as the romantic proxy of the new emerging squick god.

This thread is to discuss our opinions about her facial aesthetic; yes in this thread we are examining aspects of her appearance pre patch 5 and patch 5; so yes we are zooming in on the details of her appearance, skin, makeup and etc ; it would be hard to examine the changes to her facial aesthetic if we didn't do that; so we're comparing and contrasting pictures; I don't need to tackle the "sacrificial idiot foreign madwoman"; I didn't start this thread to do such a thing.
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
So, I didn't know Astarion would approve of following the Absolute. Time to make sure he is always dead in my game from now on. But back to topic, I was watching videos and comparing her again as well. Even her facial expressions seem better before, I can't say why, it just looks... better, more interesting. She had the air of superiority that fails her with the new design.

Yeah Astarion likes most choices that have to do with bloodshed. Minthara looks very good as an angry woman and angry expressions suit her best and her pre patch 5 version looked far more angry ; I also wonder if Larian's AI that generates facial expressions has been altered in patch 5.
you really need to start putting those pictures in spoiler tags, it's brutally difficult to read the posts here with all the pictures constantly loading and taking up 90% of the space.
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Originally Posted by IdPreferNotTo
Yes, maybe her new slightly less constricted and more frail/human look is better now than it was before, since it apparently slightly detracts from the "beauty" of her retrograde storyline.

Sorry, but you can't really separate the aesthetics of someone's story from their face. I think her previous look was aesthetically more functional/traditional/regressive within her 'M. Butterfly' -type of story, which is where her perceived beauty, or lack of it, lies. Zooming in on bad makeup, hairstyles etc. is just another way to avoid tackling the "sacrificial idiot foreign madwoman"- aesthetics of her storyline. Based on reactions to her new look, it appears she was more palatable sacrifice as long as her looks were more in line with her crude characterization as a fanatical, one-dimensional, morally reprehensible, subjugated and mentally shattered foreigner: a psychopath with subjugated "mad eyes" and corresponding makeup, that, if we believe OP, previously signaled both psychosis and psychopathy(psychosis and psychopathy are two totally different types of "crazy" btw), at the same time.

BG3 slightly modernizes this sacrificial storyline mold in the sense that it allows the player to join Minthara in sipping the flayer cult squick-koolaid and doomer romance her as the romantic proxy of the new emerging squick god.

This thread is to discuss our opinions about her facial aesthetic; yes in this thread we are examining aspects of her appearance pre patch 5 and patch 5; so yes we are zooming in on the details of her appearance, skin, makeup and etc ; it would be hard to examine the changes to her facial aesthetic if we didn't do that; so we're comparing and contrasting pictures; I don't need to tackle the "sacrificial idiot foreign madwoman"; I didn't start this thread to do such a thing.

Yeah, I'm not interested in starting a debate on the matter. My short point, while also answering the topic question from my perspective, mainly was that it's disingenuous to separate these two aspects(story & face), especially since many of the complaints I've seen seem to amount to complaints that she doesn't look evil and "crazy" enough now.
Originally Posted by IdPreferNotTo
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Originally Posted by IdPreferNotTo
Yes, maybe her new slightly less constricted and more frail/human look is better now than it was before, since it apparently slightly detracts from the "beauty" of her retrograde storyline.

Sorry, but you can't really separate the aesthetics of someone's story from their face. I think her previous look was aesthetically more functional/traditional/regressive within her 'M. Butterfly' -type of story, which is where her perceived beauty, or lack of it, lies. Zooming in on bad makeup, hairstyles etc. is just another way to avoid tackling the "sacrificial idiot foreign madwoman"- aesthetics of her storyline. Based on reactions to her new look, it appears she was more palatable sacrifice as long as her looks were more in line with her crude characterization as a fanatical, one-dimensional, morally reprehensible, subjugated and mentally shattered foreigner: a psychopath with subjugated "mad eyes" and corresponding makeup, that, if we believe OP, previously signaled both psychosis and psychopathy(psychosis and psychopathy are two totally different types of "crazy" btw), at the same time.

BG3 slightly modernizes this sacrificial storyline mold in the sense that it allows the player to join Minthara in sipping the flayer cult squick-koolaid and doomer romance her as the romantic proxy of the new emerging squick god.

This thread is to discuss our opinions about her facial aesthetic; yes in this thread we are examining aspects of her appearance pre patch 5 and patch 5; so yes we are zooming in on the details of her appearance, skin, makeup and etc ; it would be hard to examine the changes to her facial aesthetic if we didn't do that; so we're comparing and contrasting pictures; I don't need to tackle the "sacrificial idiot foreign madwoman"; I didn't start this thread to do such a thing.

Yeah, I'm not interested in starting a debate on the matter. My short point, while also answering the topic question from my perspective, mainly was that it's disingenuous to separate these two aspects(story & face), especially since many of the complaints I've seen seem to amount to complaints that she doesn't look evil and "crazy" enough now.

All opinions welcome as the title says; but I was just addressing this accusation "Zooming in on bad makeup, hairstyles etc. is just another way to avoid tackling the "sacrificial idiot foreign madwoman"; it seems like an interesting story theory though.
Soo... those Avallonkao screenshots gave me better shot at photoshopping her makeup, and I took it. Also look at her brows. I don't think the problem is in the color itself, it's that they have very little to no contrast with her skin. So I made a version with much lighter brows.
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
The old Minthara is so much better, they completely ruined her appearance.
Originally Posted by Zellin
Soo... those Avallonkao screenshots gave me better shot at photoshopping her makeup, and I took it. Also look at her brows. I don't think the problem is in the color itself, it's that they have very little to no contrast with her skin. So I made a version with much lighter brows.
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Wow nice; I had a feeling white eyebrows could look good on her; the black eyeshadow is a far better choice than silver; now the eyebrows actually stand out; I hope Larian realizes this eventually.
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
you really need to start putting those pictures in spoiler tags, it's brutally difficult to read the posts here with all the pictures constantly loading and taking up 90% of the space.


Sorry, probably my bad there on page 3. I just wanted to try and get the thread back on track with the reference images, since it was starting to wander. These forums load extremely slowly for me as well, not just the images but everything, so didn't catch that.

To the other stuff above, the whiter brows do look a bit better with higher contrast there. Darkening her skin tone might have a similar effect, like you mentioned in the first page.

I think she looked much more menacing with dark brows. In the new patch 5 look it's as if she used a pencil and traced the outline of her otherwise mid-range 50% gray eyebrows in Black khol. Which immediately makes it look like something from fashion week, or worse just cartoonish and poorly drawn. The things which were subtle in her face before, now pop out and command all the attention like glintz and glam, whereas before she was more rough-and-tumble murderess with a basilisk's gaze.

I'm still not sure what they didn't like about her initial rendering that made them want to alter it to such an extreme? The only thing I can think of is that maybe her 2d concept art looked way different or something? And now they're trying to make her new appearance match some unseen splash screen paintings? But if that's the case, I still think the modelling 3d design team created a stronger overall impression with their original take on the character.

I agree its more compelling when she looks crazed and angry. The new look makes her more campy comic relief. Which might be fine if she wasn't like one of the only big bads in the first act. I think they would have gotten the exact same response if they dramatically altered Kagha's appearance.
Originally Posted by Fox of Embers
Originally Posted by fallenj
Drows have white eyebrows right? Other than that, don't really care about the makeup or not. Curious though if she would have the new drow face tats or not. Or if that's not a thing and its lore for another universe...

Can't really remember many drows with tattoos. Might be another plane.

Some new lore that popped up recently, white face paint / markings that fade when you lose faith in lolth.
Originally Posted by fallenj
Originally Posted by Fox of Embers
Originally Posted by fallenj
Drows have white eyebrows right? Other than that, don't really care about the makeup or not. Curious though if she would have the new drow face tats or not. Or if that's not a thing and its lore for another universe...

Can't really remember many drows with tattoos. Might be another plane.

Some new lore that popped up recently, white face paint / markings that fade when you lose faith in lolth.

I heard about that when Dark Alliiance was released; it would've been interesting to see that in BG3; but who knows it's still in Early Access.
Now I'm going to compare Minthara's face to some other female NPCs; as for now it will be tough lasses in armor who can hold their own in a scrap; that way we can see what is unique in her patch 5 makeup choice relative to other female NPCS.

The female Tiefling we find northwest of the Chapel Entrance has little to no makeup on from what I can see ; her male companion is wearing black eyeshadow; Tieflings seem to look a bit dark on the sides of their eyes naturally; it's hard for me to tell if that's makeup.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

Now here's Laezel; with very prominent black warpaint and eyeshadow; it seems to add in my opinion to the fierceness of her appearance.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

Shadowheart has black eyeshadow; it seems to contrast well with her pale skin and matches her hair and circlet stone.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

Karlach has no makeup on it would seem.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

Remira is one of my favorite female NPCs I've always liked her appearance and it would seem she has no makeup on; though in these pictures she does have some blood on her face
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

It seems most female NPCs in BG3 from what I've seen thus far playing the game either have a natural face or black eyeshadow; it would seem therefore that patch 5 Minthara has the most unique eyeshadow in the game thus far.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Karlach has no makeup on it would seem.
Concidering dataminded stuff ... her face is almost for sure only Placeholder.
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Karlach has no makeup on it would seem.
Concidering dataminded stuff ... her face is almost for sure only Placeholder.

ah interesting
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by KeinSklave
Calling it as it is, that is a sign of Woke people who hate "normies" and all normal beauty standarts.
If those Woke people do not get booted quick at Larian it will be a DISASTER for sure and hurt the selling of the game.
Because the product consumer around the world is very tired of this.

The majority of people do not like Woke styled characters of both genders. They are cringe and offensive in itself.

let me get this straight. A female character having short hair and makeup you don't like is "woke", and it's cringe and offensive. Do you hear yourself? "normal beauty standards"? What is that exactly?


OKAY, okay - maybe I am overreacting. Already calmed down again about this matter.
It is just my fears & worrys are often coming to live and I am can't deal with this anymore.
I want Baldurs Gate 3 to not "s*ck" and be good.
And Minths current hairstyle is giving me reason for concern.

You do not know what the traditional and therefore 'normal' beauty standart is?
For Women it is the stereotypical features associated with feminimity. Long hair, not obese, not punk or anything.

Especially with Elves in a fantasyworld who are known for their great vitality and extrem lifespawns.
It makes lots of sense that they have long hair that is not getting weaker at all even if it reaches their waste.
Not necessarily "Lord of the Rings" style but you get the overall image.

They do not have "punk culture" and hair that looks like they have just recieved a very powerful electrical discharge.

Minthara looks "OLD" even for an Elf(Drow) and her hairstyle looks like that of those ugly SJW's & Feminists.
Of Feminists with all their crazy ideas that are in fact NOT female empowerment but female depowerment.
And a revenge of less attractive Women against naturally attractive Women.
Most Men
° are not attracted to overweight Women
° not interested in the freakist hairstyles
° or more piercings & tatoos than teeth
° or make-up that looks like the indication of a poisonous frog


That is just a very bad design choice and if Larian is smart - they will not put THIS Minthara into any trailer during release!
Same as a few other characters.
People are very very tired of seeing their fantasy invades by political agendas & progressive bullsh°° that sends a message that no one wants.

Every studio should be smart about this!
Screw the NewWorldOrder system hired "critics", instead win the audience over!


I guess ultimately I will not care how Larian decides though.
And if I have to install mods for days or something before I can play.
I will totally do it and go through it no matter how annoying or painful it gets.
Everything - before I endure this repulsive "official version".

This Minthara looks weak & like a political agenda that has nothing to do in Faerun.
The actual Karlach is just a random npc. She will be totally remade, face, body, the broken horn, will look completely different. Also, it seems she will as big as Halsin btw.
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
The actual Karlach is just a random npc. She will be totally remade, face, body, the broken horn, will look completely different. Also, it seems she will as big as Halsin btw

Oh that makes sense; I simply chose a picture of her because she was a female NPC that wore armor; that said from what I've seen most of the Tiefling females seem to have basically no makeup. I must admit that my selection has been somewhat racially broad; the reason being there is a shortage of Drow female NPCs in this game; at least as far as I know.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
I don't think there's any other drow npc besides Minthara, at least alive.
Originally Posted by fylimar
she is just dead meat in my playthroughs. So hard pass.

There's a possibility you're missing something here.

If you side with her, and bunk with her, and later choose to focus on her lust rather than fear, and pass a skill check, she doesn't try to kill you

so there's a lot of potential for Act 2+ possibilities with the character
Originally Posted by colinl8
Originally Posted by fylimar
she is just dead meat in my playthroughs. So hard pass.

There's a possibility you're missing something here.

If you side with her, and bunk with her, and later choose to focus on her lust rather than fear, and pass a skill check, she doesn't try to kill you

so there's a lot of potential for Act 2+ possibilities with the character
I don't care, I'm not interested in evil cult leaders and I have zero interest in getting cosy with that drow, she is highly uninteresting and even annoying to me. It amazes me, that this character has so kann fans ( it amazes me with Astarion too, who I even like less than Minthara). As far, as I'm concerned, she is and stays dead meat, I only want her Amulett of Misty Steps.
Originally Posted by KeinSklave
You do not know what the traditional and therefore 'normal' beauty standart is?

[...]

They do not have "punk culture" and hair that looks like they have just recieved a very powerful electrical discharge.

I don't think any particular individual among us gets to dictate what traditional beuty is within the world of Faerûn, I know a fair amount of guys preferring short hair. Even know a guy who prefer no hair. I do not know what a typical guy likes in Faerûn. It doesn't even matter for me as a gamer. And that logic applies to humans on planet Earth, which aren't even comparable to humans in fantasy words (they don't have our history, environment, society, etc.) - So I always wonder when people discuss medieval traits for example, unless the particular game explicitly also has a medieval era within its lore. Who's to say short hair isn't normal among the drow, or among the cluster Minthara lives in?


Originally Posted by KeinSklave
Minthara looks "OLD" even for an Elf(Drow) and her hairstyle looks like that of those ugly SJW's & Feminists.
Of Feminists with all their crazy ideas that are in fact NOT female empowerment but female depowerment.
And a revenge of less attractive Women against naturally attractive Women.
Most Men
° are not attracted to overweight Women
° not interested in the freakist hairstyles
° or more piercings & tatoos than teeth
° or make-up that looks like the indication of a poisonous frog

[...]

Let's not go there, please. Politics has no place in a gaming hemisphere, and when brought up, it always ends up in arguing and fighting, and someone getting banned. I don't think judging someone by their hair is inherently a good idea. Judge people by their actions and the words they choose. I don't think Minthara has ticked those boxes, at least in the version I've played.

This doesn't mean that there aren't things to say about the hair-change, I'm not too fond of it either for the particular character. But I don't like any hairstyles that seem like they require hair-product to stylize, because I'm not sure if there's any hair-products for sale at any of the vendors.
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
I don't think there's any other drow npc besides Minthara, at least alive.
Do we need drow tho?
I mean ... they are just elves with dark skin ... if we wish to compare their look, elf woman should do just fine ... and there is plently of them. laugh
Minthara is way better in patch 5 imo. Cleaner look, more graphic.
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Let's take a look at Minthara in the sunlight.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

The brightness of white hair and silver eyeshadow in the patch 5 iteration seems to really be overwhelming in sunlight; I think the whiteness of the hair, lashes, and eyebrows would be sufficient for her Drow aesthetic; In the first iteration though the eyebrows are darker I don't think it would affect much if they were changed to the white of the patch 5 iteration; it really seems in my opinion when she's in the sunlight it's more aesthetically pleasing to the eye when the silver eyeshadow is not applied. Kazuliski might've used some reshade in one or both of these videos; but I think it's still a good comparison.

Some very Blond people have white eyelashes. the black shadow and occlusion in white hairs looked really unnatural prior to patch 5 , its now looks much betters and realistic.

Look at this picture for instance [img]https://ibb.co/Nxhq1QR[/img]
Originally Posted by The Composer
I'm not too fond of it either for the particular character. But I don't like any hairstyles that seem like they require hair-product to stylize, because I'm not sure if there's any hair-products for sale at any of the vendors.

Meanwhile Astarion exists wink
Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by colinl8
Originally Posted by fylimar
she is just dead meat in my playthroughs. So hard pass.

There's a possibility you're missing something here.

If you side with her, and bunk with her, and later choose to focus on her lust rather than fear, and pass a skill check, she doesn't try to kill you

so there's a lot of potential for Act 2+ possibilities with the character
I don't care, I'm not interested in evil cult leaders and I have zero interest in getting cosy with that drow, she is highly uninteresting and even annoying to me. It amazes me, that this character has so kann fans ( it amazes me with Astarion too, who I even like less than Minthara). As far, as I'm concerned, she is and stays dead meat, I only want her Amulett of Misty Steps.

Well, I share the same opinion, but not everyone is the same. Some want to enjoy an evil character/romance expecting to have something like a "romance" with evil characters. Until they realize that they will not have any sort of good endings and start blaming the developers. It happened in some games and ppl still think evil path, etc is more interesting which is nice to have this choice. So, let them try and see how exactly Evil is. Ad I hope Larian can make sure the Evil path has some very nasty ending/consequences, especially for "romances".

But again, now that I think about it, Larian made the worst, and the most evil ending in DOS2 their canon and lead to the best ending for the world. hmmm.
I think some of the interest comes from the way that these games still key off real world conventions, and along the evil path, Minthara is oddly one of the more sex positive characters in Act 1. They played it up further by going all porna with her in the celebration scene. Basically the Evil path S&M one night stand, where she still tries to kill you afterwards, unless you really thread the needle there lol.

If Astarion suddenly had silver eyeliner, I don't think anyone would be too up in arms about it hehe, but its like they're trying to do too much of a 180 on this one. Just make a new character at that point, I mean right?

Originally Posted by Hachina
Minthara is way better in patch 5 imo. Cleaner look, more graphic.

I agree that she looks more graphic now, but I see that as a net negative with the rest of the game's aesthetic being what it is. To me it flattens the figure, but not in a good graphic design type way like a Mucha drawing or something, instead I just get the impression that she's not fully rendered. The profusion of hard edges and general lack of contrast annoys me compared to the earlier iteration. Maybe this is what they wanted all along, but then they shouldn't have given me the chance to see their rough sketches first, since of course I'd end up liking those better haha. Isn't that always the case with revisited sketches? lol
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by colinl8
Originally Posted by fylimar
she is just dead meat in my playthroughs. So hard pass.

There's a possibility you're missing something here.

If you side with her, and bunk with her, and later choose to focus on her lust rather than fear, and pass a skill check, she doesn't try to kill you

so there's a lot of potential for Act 2+ possibilities with the character
I don't care, I'm not interested in evil cult leaders and I have zero interest in getting cosy with that drow, she is highly uninteresting and even annoying to me. It amazes me, that this character has so kann fans ( it amazes me with Astarion too, who I even like less than Minthara). As far, as I'm concerned, she is and stays dead meat, I only want her Amulett of Misty Steps.

Well, I share the same opinion, but not everyone is the same. Some want to enjoy an evil character/romance expecting to have something like a "romance" with evil characters. Until they realize that they will not have any sort of good endings and start blaming the developers. It happened in some games and ppl still think evil path, etc is more interesting which is nice to have this choice. So, let them try and see how exactly Evil is. Ad I hope Larian can make sure the Evil path has some very nasty ending/consequences, especially for "romances".

But again, now that I think about it, Larian made the worst, and the most evil ending in DOS2 their canon and lead to the best ending for the world. hmmm.


I think it's highly likely you can eventually influence most of the evilish characters(probably not Minthara, though), so that they're not doomed, and/or total assholes towards the PC, and maybe even adopt a less evil worldview. It would be a tad unconventional, if they didn't add this degree of companion malleability in relationships.

Also in BG2 Throne of Bhaal, they basically treated the Bhaal taint as some sort of harmless 'god juice', since assuming the divine essence and position of Bhaal, lord of murder, had zero effect on your being. Basically if you were good up to the ending, you remained so, despite being a god of murder. So along these lines, it wouldn't surprise me, if they decided to "respect player choice" by adding some convoluted plot twist(Like making it so, that one of the dead three is ultimately pulling the Mind flayer cult's strings, not the mind flayers), where aligning with Minthara and the cult can ultimately be beneficial, since you're not destined to become flayer food.

I sincerely hope that will not be the case, though.
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
Well, I share the same opinion, but not everyone is the same. Some want to enjoy an evil character/romance expecting to have something like a "romance" with evil characters. Until they realize that they will not have any sort of good endings and start blaming the developers. It happened in some games and ppl still think evil path, etc is more interesting which is nice to have this choice. So, let them try and see how exactly Evil is. Ad I hope Larian can make sure the Evil path has some very nasty ending/consequences, especially for "romances".
Considering the original BG2 game doesn't have a bad ending for an evil main character, and you can become an evil god feared by many, I doubt that. I suspect BG3 will follow a similar route, since the premise is somewhat similar: accepting or refusing the evil power, with the difference that in BG2 the evil power came from the divine heritage of the main character.

edit: Another similar game (or rather expansion) is Mask of the Betrayer. I've found the evil ending was better than the good one there.
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
I think some of the interest comes from the way that these games still key off real world conventions, and along the evil path, Minthara is oddly one of the more sex positive characters in Act 1. They played it up further by going all porna with her in the celebration scene. Basically the Evil path S&M one night stand, where she still tries to kill you afterwards, unless you really thread the needle there lol.

Nah... I associate sex positivity with having the necessary space and time to actually figure out stuff like; what and who you desire, and how, and in what form, do you want to be desired etc. And of course being able to act out those desires, without the inertia of oppressive culture dictating these things for you.

And let's face it the drow culture, apparently initially conceived as a inverted parody/fantasy of feminism/patriarchy, is suffocating in this regard, and Minthara is pretty much the shattered product of said culture with markedly little agency of her own. As far as the S&M -genre is concerned, I don't think a person like Minthara, so lacking in agency, qualifies as a domme, since you're submitting primarily to the organization she's incorporated into as a puppet, not to a person.
Originally Posted by Hachina
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Let's take a look at Minthara in the sunlight.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

The brightness of white hair and silver eyeshadow in the patch 5 iteration seems to really be overwhelming in sunlight; I think the whiteness of the hair, lashes, and eyebrows would be sufficient for her Drow aesthetic; In the first iteration though the eyebrows are darker I don't think it would affect much if they were changed to the white of the patch 5 iteration; it really seems in my opinion when she's in the sunlight it's more aesthetically pleasing to the eye when the silver eyeshadow is not applied. Kazuliski might've used some reshade in one or both of these videos; but I think it's still a good comparison.

Some very Blond people have white eyelashes. the black shadow and occlusion in white hairs looked really unnatural prior to patch 5 , its now looks much betters and realistic.

I actually like her white hair; I just don't think her eyebrows and eyelashes contrast well with bright silver eyeshadow.
Originally Posted by IdPreferNotTo
Nah... I associate sex positivity with having the necessary space and time to actually figure out stuff like; what and who you desire, and how, and in what form, do you want to be desired etc. And of course being able to act out those desires, without the inertia of oppressive culture dictating these things for you.

And let's face it the drow culture, apparently initially conceived as a inverted parody/fantasy of feminism/patriarchy, is suffocating in this regard, and Minthara is pretty much the shattered product of said culture with markedly little agency of her own. As far as the S&M -genre is concerned, I don't think a person like Minthara, so lacking in agency, qualifies as a domme, since you're submitting primarily to the organization she's incorporated into as a puppet, not to a person.

Yeah, I mean you're definitely correct, but for a not particularly sophisticated game that still wants to go there, she certainly hops to in this one at the celebration. I guess where I was driving was that of course the sex freaks in act 1 would be the foppish vampire, the evil drow psycho, and Abdirak lord of pain. I still think it would be funnier if Sazza was the crooner, or if Gale was the total slut in the group or whatever, but its like we sort of know what we're going to get here. They're playing it pretty safe for the most part. Where we get easy Evil sex on the one side, and none on the other. In that case the over the top Evil version becomes the sex positive one by default. I didn't even know that the camp celebration was supposed to be a big bang-athon, until trying the darkside path. The approval for the other companions needs to be relatively high, except for Astarion, who clearly is just bored enough to try anything at that point lol. If you don't waste time and resolve the Druid/Goblin path according to when the story beats indicate rather than running off to random places, its possible Minthara is the only one trying to dive in bed along the Goblin path, so it makes a certain sense that she stands out and others take a back seat. I was actually surprised that no tieflings are trying to get off going the other way with it. But anyhow, yeah I do think its part of why Minthara's appearance is coming up against more stumbling blocks, cause she has the sex with the PCs angle going on. I think she was thrown into the mix to heighten the darkside raging hormone appeal of stupid Gobbo choices, and like a definite Lae'z menage a trois dilemma written all over her, between the Gith or Shadowheart or her. Like who's going to be the most Evil night cap? I'm sure it's all in good fun. But honestly they should do a little more of the "Who do you dream of" maybe to define the appearances based on player preference there, if they want to play that part up.

I mean they give us basically a sub-character creator to select certain cosmetic preferences, and the first up in that menu is a female drow model. So it's sort of like, why aren't they using Daisy more in that way? It would be more fun like Total Recall.

That's a fair point about white hair, making sure blond haired people are happy with the modelling is bound to be a priority I guess. I think her brows and lashes were better before though. None of the character or monster designs in this game seem particularly graphic or intentionally stylized and cartoonish, when the vibe otherwise is all ultra-real. So seeing them push that direction for this character now feels sort of out of place, especially when we put her up next to herself, and want to get all extra critical about it in the mirror. It does make me wonder though about who the concept artist was, or if she even had any concept art to begin with?
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by colinl8
Originally Posted by fylimar
she is just dead meat in my playthroughs. So hard pass.

There's a possibility you're missing something here.

If you side with her, and bunk with her, and later choose to focus on her lust rather than fear, and pass a skill check, she doesn't try to kill you

so there's a lot of potential for Act 2+ possibilities with the character
I don't care, I'm not interested in evil cult leaders and I have zero interest in getting cosy with that drow, she is highly uninteresting and even annoying to me. It amazes me, that this character has so kann fans ( it amazes me with Astarion too, who I even like less than Minthara). As far, as I'm concerned, she is and stays dead meat, I only want her Amulett of Misty Steps.

Well, I share the same opinion, but not everyone is the same. Some want to enjoy an evil character/romance expecting to have something like a "romance" with evil characters. Until they realize that they will not have any sort of good endings and start blaming the developers. It happened in some games and ppl still think evil path, etc is more interesting which is nice to have this choice. So, let them try and see how exactly Evil is. Ad I hope Larian can make sure the Evil path has some very nasty ending/consequences, especially for "romances".

But again, now that I think about it, Larian made the worst, and the most evil ending in DOS2 their canon and lead to the best ending for the world. hmmm.
And that is ok for people who like evil characters (and graphic sex scenes, because I'm pretty sure, that this is a big reason for Mintharas popularity, which is fine by me). I was put off, because the user was strongly suggesting, I should try the Minthara romance and my reaction was basically a longwinded 'Hell, no'. It happens, that Minthara and Astarion are the two characters, I liked the least in EA so far.
If course, If people do go down that road, it would be interesting, if the story will have some (nasty?) surprise. I will watch the YouTube playthrough then grin
Yeah, perfectly understandable and sound choices there!

Honestly the amulate and some lootable black armor would be the best thing for Minthara as a character. Even along the evil path. Even if she comes back later after getting merc'd like Drizzt did, that would still be way cooler. Black Armor that we can steal. I'm pretty sure it works with every shade of eyeliner and any haircut!

Black Armor for the win. Then they can do whatever the hell they want with the makeup. Though I still think the Daisy idea is cool. If Minthara suddenly popped up with Daisy Hair and Daisy makeup choices. Or they could do the same for Halsin, or any of their big gets. Just kinda pegging it to those initial choices. Maybe its just the worm in our heads playing tricks, to explain away the convenience, but that would add another layer of depth to the dream choices.
At least for me, the appeal of a lawful evil (or murderous rampage) playthrough is just to see how much the writers have taken into account. What if I do action x at a completely ridiculous point in time? What if I do action y which seems like it should totally block the story? How is this handled? I like seeing how the writers handle the negative ending, or being surprised (like in Outer Worlds) where you can still get a decent outcome for the world if you side with the (initial) antagonist.

Originally Posted by Black_elk
I still think the Daisy idea is cool

Is "Daisy" the name we're using for the who do you dream of? character? If so, I definitely like the idea of seeing those choices manifest in the real world
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
I don't think there's any other drow npc besides Minthara, at least alive.
Do we need drow tho?
I mean ... they are just elves with dark skin ... if we wish to compare their look, elf woman should do just fine ... and there is plently of them. laugh

There is; but in the aforementioned post my focus was armored females; I thought it would be interesting to compare her makeup choices to other martial women in the game; I don't really even remember many elf females; Florrick and Kagha come to mind though.

Florrick's black eyeshadow fits well with her outfit and her hair; in my opinion black eye makeup works well with most skin tones.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

Kagha's green eyeshadow matches her green Druid outfit and her green eyes.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

Patch 5 Minthara has brighter eyeshadow than these NPCs and every other NPC as far I know; her eyeshadow is so bright that it makes her white eyebrows less noticeable and it undermines her facial expressions in my opinion; I think it also lessens the intensity of her red eyes.
[Linked Image from s6.gifyu.com]
[Linked Image from s6.gifyu.com]

I think less eyeshadow or no eyeshadow might benefit her appearance; and maybe a darker color as well.
Yeah I think so, the Daisy name I mean. Ever since KillerRabbit made that tinfoil hat "bicycle built for two" thread. It must have been written down somewhere, perhaps in the mine? Just shorthand for the worm in our head.

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=763875

I think it makes sense, again like Total Recall, that our cosmetic inputs there might have some bearing on who we encounter later. Minthara has her own VO and head model and such that can't be accessed without mods I guess, but it still seems like an entertaining idea. Even if just for the makeup or the eye color, the haircut and such. Dotmats I think also raised the idea in that one BG3 video he made, that modern RPGs are really trying to just play off the real doll 'play as who you want to sleep with' sort of ideal, which is what gives these games all those familiar YA pitfalls. It would be interesting, since the tadpole thing is so baked in, to go all meta there. As like a running commentary on the typical player choices. They seemed to have a good laugh in their first EA newsletter, when they realized that everyone was just using the most bland model choices available, instead of like tieflings with horns and blue hair lol. They may have gotten an equally boring result for Daisy, if they were tracking it in their analytics. I don't even bother to change her face model anymore. I click the voice from 2 to 4, since the Scots accent sort of grates, and maybe click a different haircut just for flair, but otherwise Daisy is just the drow gal they throw at me, since the choices don't seem to affect anything other than one or two introspection cutscenes. It could at least be randomized, but they didn't go there with the custom PC character creator, so I guess why would I expect them to do it in the sub-character creator hehe. It would be cooler though if the choices there actually impacted who we ran into among the NPCs somehow, or how they ended up looking.

Florrick and Kagha are putting Minthara to shame with their eye makeup chops. Nobody is signing up to get their cosmetology degree from the Absolute's "School of Absolute Beauty" now. Not with Patch 5 Minthara on the cover of the brochure at any rate hehe

I can almost anticipate that in patch 6 Minthara will have a new VO line where she says something like "Beauty is only skin deep!" before trying to cut someone. Or "All in the eye of the beholder" but like with an actual Beholder's eye in her hand. It'll just turn into the running joke. Too far along now to stop that from happening.

ps. You can't even see Minthara's eyebrows in the top animation above, since the brow color matches her skintone almost exactly now. It looks like when the stylist asks the makeup artist to completely cover a model's eyebrows, so new brows can be drawn on with a pencil. Perhaps in a totally different shape, or with a more severe angle or whatever, but where we can still totally see the actual eyebrows under all the powder. It just seems wonky and over the top catwalk, especially for this character. Again, if it was Astarion doing it, I'm sure he gets a pass. But Minthara? It just doesn't fit.

pps. further digression, but evil path should be like MInthara says "perhaps someday, in Menzoberranzan..." with that stary-eyed whimsy look like maybe she's changed deep down, but then the PC just says "Or not" and straight mercs her for the black armor and the misty step amulet at the last moment? hehe. So cold!

I mean she could still come back later and be all pissed about it, especially that you jacked her duds, and "what about all we shared, and the absolute?" before trying to kill you a third time. But that would just be better. She should be designed to get dropped in Act 1 and have her black armor taken by the PC, regardless of the path. Same as Drizzt in BG1 to BG2 follow up. Better Evil.

Evil path works best as comedy I think, but where the villain is still playing it straight. Like Alan Rickman's Sherriff of Nottingham or Edwin from BG. Minthara cutthroat evil of the previous look kinda had that for me, mainly in the hair I guess. Rocker hair, like late 80s early 90s blow out had a certain vibe, but this one is like a whole different sort of Minthara now. I still think black armor could sell it though. Maybe she's born with it, maybe its black armor

3ps. SWTOR was mentioned earlier, and the analogous character there I think is Thana Vesh. Like a one dimensional B villain psycho who'd slip into the background otherwise, except for being redeemed by her badass black armor. A sense of style that made her memorable. Talk about eyeshadow lol. In that game they played it where SW Baroness balked at every advance, whereas here Minthara is the one doing the pouncing to an almost comical degree, but I think the comparison is kind of apt. Same thing going on, I'd suspect, where without the right look the character would just ring sort of hollow and become instantly forgettable. Might be giving Minthara too much credit in that comparison, since Thana Vesh had the whole "I can do anything better than you" tease, and was being constantly thwarted by her insufferable Darth Lord whoever. I don't remember his name. But she stood out. She got the name rec. Same way Minthara did here. Even as a one note, the armor should look badass.

Her patch 5 outfit is like what you force the PCs to dress in at lvl1, so they can be excited to immediately find something that looks way cooler, not how you dress a villain heheh. They should really put in some work there for Minthara's duds, cause the new duds combined with the new makeup and all the rest is just dragging her down, like from B villain to D.
Originally Posted by Hachina
[quote=Tara Grimface]Let's take a look at Minthara in the sunlight.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
Is it just an unflattering angle, or does it look like Minethara's head got popped on the male bodytype? I'm not talking (just) about reduced chesticle size, her shoulders seem broader, there's less of an hourglass figure? I agree it's more a makeup problem she has; it's a very, very strong and intense colour, and that's not helping her eyes 'pop'.
Originally Posted by Some_Twerp753
Originally Posted by Hachina
[quote=Tara Grimface]Let's take a look at Minthara in the sunlight.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
Is it just an unflattering angle, or does it look like Minethara's head got popped on the male bodytype? I'm not talking (just) about reduced chesticle size, her shoulders seem broader, there's less of an hourglass figure? I agree it's more a makeup problem she has; it's a very, very strong and intense colour, and that's not helping her eyes 'pop'.

Now that you mentioned it, it seems they used the male armor model on her patch 5. Which can happens since they are still working on models, and Patch 5 broke so many armor models.
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Florrick and Kagha are putting Minthara to shame with their eye makeup chops. Nobody is signing up to get their cosmetology degree from the Absolute's "School of Absolute Beauty" now. Not with Patch 5 Minthara on the cover of the brochure at any rate hehe

Sadly I think just about every female NPC has better taste in makeup than Minthara; she has the worst color contrast of all; just about all the other females have either black eyeshadow or none at all except Kagha who has green eyeshadow but it contrasts her skin pretty well her and matches her outfit.


Originally Posted by Black_Elk
ps. You can't even see Minthara's eyebrows in the top animation above, since the brow color matches her skintone almost exactly now. It looks like when the stylist asks the makeup artist to completely cover a model's eyebrows, so new brows can be drawn on with a pencil. Perhaps in a totally different shape, or with a more severe angle or whatever, but where we can still totally see the actual eyebrows under all the powder. It just seems wonky and over the top catwalk, especially for this character. Again, if it was Astarion doing it, I'm sure he gets a pass. But Minthara? It just doesn't fit.

It actually hurts my eyes when I try to concentrate on her eyebrows; I've done it several times it's very unpleasant.
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
Originally Posted by Some_Twerp753
Originally Posted by Hachina
[quote=Tara Grimface]Let's take a look at Minthara in the sunlight.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
Is it just an unflattering angle, or does it look like Minethara's head got popped on the male bodytype? I'm not talking (just) about reduced chesticle size, her shoulders seem broader, there's less of an hourglass figure? I agree it's more a makeup problem she has; it's a very, very strong and intense colour, and that's not helping her eyes 'pop'.

Now that you mentioned it, it seems they used the male armor model on her patch 5. Which can happens since they are still working on models, and Patch 5 broke so many armor models.

Yikes it's true! I can see the difference; patch 5 is like the perfect storm for Minthara fans everything that could possibly go wrong has went wrong lol!
Wow! no wonder it looks so ill fitting and weirdly proportioned lol

Well then they should definitely revisit her outfit now, after that. Talk about a botch'd rollout for Minthara. Maybe it was meant to be a badass cool armor set and the tag just got misplaced. Lie to me, whatever, just make it better in the patch heheh
Let's examine this Ringmail armor.

[Linked Image from staticdelivery.nexusmods.com]

The space underneath the male armor's arm is wider and the female armor has a good deal less space to the point where the thread is on the sides of the shirt; the chest is also flatter on the male Ringmail.

Men's Ringmail
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

Women's Ringmail
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

That is stunning!; good find Some_Twerp753 and Avallonkao; absolutely amazing!

Originally Posted by KeinSklave
That is just a very bad design choice and if Larian is smart - they will not put THIS Minthara into any trailer during release!

I'm pretty sure they'll have to fix this!; most certainly.
Ow wow. I am now convinced that this whole thing was a coding screw up…or a placeholder. No way did they give her a male body on purpose. Could be same for dreadful eye make up too.
Originally Posted by timebean
Ow wow. I am now convinced that this whole thing was a coding screw up…or a placeholder. No way did they give her a male body on purpose. Could be same for dreadful eye make up too.

Who knows? I feel very strange about all this; I really hope someone from Larian reads this thread.
Originally Posted by timebean
Ow wow. I am now convinced that this whole thing was a coding screw up…or a placeholder. No way did they give her a male body on purpose. Could be same for dreadful eye make up too.
It's possible she is supposed to have a "cultist leader" armor and Larian doesn't want to spoil it yet. Considering they won't even let wizards have their robes. laugh

Someone has datamined several armors not implemented in the EA yet, and these include cultist robes.
Me and some fellow posters were examining the details of Minthara's design when one of them mentioned
Originally Posted by Some_Twerp753
Is it just an unflattering angle, or does it look like Minethara's head got popped on the male bodytype? I'm not talking (just) about reduced chesticle size, her shoulders seem broader, there's less of an hourglass figure? I agree it's more a makeup problem she has; it's a very, very strong and intense colour, and that's not helping her eyes 'pop'.

and another poster said this
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
Now that you mentioned it, it seems they used the male armor model on her patch 5. Which can happens since they are still working on models, and Patch 5 broke so many armor models.

So I looked over my images and without any doubt their observations are correct and when I realized this; I knew I had to give my feedback to Larian and inform the community about this problem; which I'm sure many of us were hitherto unaware of. In this thread much like in the thread about Minthara's makeup; the plan is to compare and contrast pre patch 5 images and patch 5 images as well as any images of the Ringmail armor.

So let's take a look here at the Men's and Women's models for the Ringmail. Pay very close attention to the significant amount of space under the arms of the male model and the lack thereof in the female model; as well as the broadness of the male model in the torso area; the female model differs because the thread on the side of the Ringmail is nearly just below the arm and the chest
area is not completely flat chested; also the male model's kneecaps are steel colored and the female model's kneecaps are colored brown.
[Linked Image from staticdelivery.nexusmods.com]

So these below are two images that we looked at; pay close attention to the torso and the area under the arm.

Men's Ringmail
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
Women's Ringmail
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
Now a closeup picture of her underarm.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
These images will provide a better view of her chest.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
I know the Mod is going to ban me anyway but if I am not saying it no one gonna have the balls to :
Is minthara a Trans? Before patch 5 = female, after = male.
Originally Posted by Street Hero
I know the Mod is going to ban me anyway but if I am not saying it no one gonna have the balls to :
Is minthara a Trans? Before patch 5 = female, after = male.

Hopefully it's just a mistake on Larian's part; but it really is a big oversight; I was surprised when we found this on the makeup thread; I never would have expected it; that said she does have a female body in the intimate romance scenes; which makes this more confusing; very odd.
Originally Posted by Street Hero
I know the Mod is going to ban me anyway but if I am not saying it no one gonna have the balls to :
Is minthara a Trans? Before patch 5 = female, after = male.

and if they were?
Here's a camp scene where we can compare the full outfit from the side.

Take notice of the steel kneecaps from the male model here in patch 5 and the broadness of figure in comparison to the below image.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

Here in the pre patch 5 iteration her brown kneecaps come from the female ringmail model; and her figure is less broad and more feminine.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

I think a clear difference can be seen here.
Again, this is common to happen, it's mostly like to be fixed. If you try other armors yourself, especially the unavailable ones with mods, you'll see that many of them are now broken, clipping, some models look weird, etc.
I don't even think this is the final version for many characters and companions, they are changing them constantly and will keep doing so until the game is complete. It's a normal process.
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
Again, this is common to happen, it's mostly like to be fixed. If you try other armors yourself, especially the unavailable ones with mods, you'll see that many of them are now broken, clipping, some models look weird, etc.
I don't even think this is the final version for many characters and companions, they are changing them constantly and will keep doing so until the game is complete. It's a normal process.

I thought so; this is new to me because this is my first early access game; I hope Larian will see our feedback on this and fix it in the next patch.
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by Street Hero
I know the Mod is going to ban me anyway but if I am not saying it no one gonna have the balls to :
Is minthara a Trans? Before patch 5 = female, after = male.

and if they were?

I would say i am a --removed by moderation--
I think there's at least one last feature that is different in the patch 5 armor and since I'm obsessive compulsive; it's hard for me not to point it out; even though most of you who have read the above posts already see the differences; if you do; then by all means pay me no mind.

The female model of the Ringmail has four buckles that tail off on the sides; they were present in Minthara's pre patch 5 Ringmail.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

The patch 5 Ringmail buckles are short like the male model.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
Just don't, street hero.

People may not say certain things because they're mature and/or just know better.
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Here's a camp scene where we can compare the full outfit from the side.

Take notice of the steel kneecaps from the male model here in patch 5 and the broadness of figure in comparison to the below image.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
Here in the pre patch 5 iteration her brown kneecaps come from the female ringmail model; and her figure is less broad and more feminine.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

I think a clear difference can be seen here.

Hmm this image of her with short hair made her look good. I mean, I will never have any real interest or butcher a bunch of innocent children just to have sex with a random murderous lady I just met. but still, she looks good here. But, be patient, in time she will probably even get her own exclusive armor and all. Although would make more sense if she got a unique armor after Act 2 if she's alive and all. It's clear that Larian is giving her attention by even giving her a unique hairstyle.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by timebean
Ow wow. I am now convinced that this whole thing was a coding screw up…or a placeholder. No way did they give her a male body on purpose. Could be same for dreadful eye make up too.
It's possible she is supposed to have a "cultist leader" armor and Larian doesn't want to spoil it yet. Considering they won't even let wizards have their robes. laugh

Someone has datamined several armors not implemented in the EA yet, and these include cultist robes.

That would be great. It would be interesting to see her in the color scheme of the robes.
[Linked Image from i.redd.it]
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Here's a camp scene where we can compare the full outfit from the side.

Take notice of the steel kneecaps from the male model here in patch 5 and the broadness of figure in comparison to the below image.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
Here in the pre patch 5 iteration her brown kneecaps come from the female ringmail model; and her figure is less broad and more feminine.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

I think a clear difference can be seen here.

Hmm this image of her with short hair made her look good. I mean, I will never have any real interest or butcher a bunch of innocent children just to have sex with a random murderous lady I just met. but still, she looks good here. But, be patient, in time she will probably even get her own exclusive armor and all. Although would make more sense if she got a unique armor after Act 2 if she's alive and all. It's clear that Larian is giving her attention by even giving her a unique hairstyle.

It sort of makes me excited to see what they do with her next!
Just an idea: Why don't you ask the mods to merge all the Minthara thread and get that mega thread over into the Megathread section. I think, those are the threads, Larian is actually taking notive of? I mean, I don't care about her looks, but clearly some of you are very passionate about it, that way, something might actually come out of it?
Originally Posted by fylimar
Just an idea: Why don't you ask the mods to merge all the Minthara thread and get that mega thread over into the Megathread section. I think, those are the threads, Larian is actually taking notive of? I mean, I don't care about her looks, but clearly some of you are very passionate about it, that way, something might actually come out of it?

I'm kinda new to forums; I don't particularly know how to go about that; it seems like a good idea though.
I assume you can just report your own thread and in the message just type "could the Minthara threads be added as a single megathread?" i agree, having 3 or more threads on a single aspect of a single minor character seems a bit much, but who am i to judge what people like.
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
I assume you can just report your own thread and in the message just type "could the Minthara threads be added as a single megathread?" i agree, having 3 or more threads on a single aspect of a single minor character seems a bit much, but who am i to judge what people like.

haha, you reminded me of Gale after I choose to spend the night with Shadowheart.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Originally Posted by fylimar
Just an idea: Why don't you ask the mods to merge all the Minthara thread and get that mega thread over into the Megathread section. I think, those are the threads, Larian is actually taking notive of? I mean, I don't care about her looks, but clearly some of you are very passionate about it, that way, something might actually come out of it?

I'm kinda new to forums; I don't particularly know how to go about that; it seems like a good idea though.
Contact one of the mods, vometia or The Composer for example and ask them to merge the three Minthara visual threads into one in the megathread section.
Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Originally Posted by fylimar
Just an idea: Why don't you ask the mods to merge all the Minthara thread and get that mega thread over into the Megathread section. I think, those are the threads, Larian is actually taking notive of? I mean, I don't care about her looks, but clearly some of you are very passionate about it, that way, something might actually come out of it?

I'm kinda new to forums; I don't particularly know how to go about that; it seems like a good idea though.
Contact one of the mods, vometia or The Composer for example and ask them to merge the three Minthara visual threads into one in the megathread section.

I only have two and I know Onemanarmy has at least two as well.
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Originally Posted by fylimar
Just an idea: Why don't you ask the mods to merge all the Minthara thread and get that mega thread over into the Megathread section. I think, those are the threads, Larian is actually taking notive of? I mean, I don't care about her looks, but clearly some of you are very passionate about it, that way, something might actually come out of it?

I'm kinda new to forums; I don't particularly know how to go about that; it seems like a good idea though.
Contact one of the mods, vometia or The Composer for example and ask them to merge the three Minthara visual threads into one in the megathread section.

I only have two and I know Onemanarmy has at least two as well.
Yeah I meant those: your two and the other one, where fans were complaining generally about the look. I would try it, it gets more attention as a megathread.
So I've played each of the previous patches and I thought it was a bug of somekind that Minthara suddenly had short hair and looked significantly less feminine.

While I don't particularly have complaints either way, the question is why did this change occur? I had wondered if it had something to do with that particular playthrough (patch 6) using a drow female. While I don't have complaints, as an opinion Minthara is an eye-sore now compared to how she appeared in earlier patches.

However, my main question is why was the change for her appearance implemented at all?
Originally Posted by Tuco
I was never a big Minthara fan, generally speaking, but I definitely do NOT think she looks better now.

Agreed completely. She's now an eye-sore and generally painful to look at.

"She went from dark and menacing into a glittery drow drag queen. The eye makeup was definitely not a good choice for this character. She needs her old eyes back and a menacing drow armor."

Agreed and this is hilarious. Had a good ol' laugh.
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
More scarecrowing? Everyone understands the points being made, but it does little to help the overall argument against the changes. You want her to be beautiful, a real lady/drow? ok got it. But other people have different standards of beauty, or maybe think that beauty is not necessarily the goal here, but perhaps something else like a sense of menace, so now we're at an impasse. But if you just focus on what you don't like rather than wrapping it in those other things, it's possible to have a conversation about the art that doesn't just degenerate into culture politics in like 2 seconds. When you imply that such and such a visual aesthetic is an endorsement of a certain worldview or whatever, you lose traction with half the audience that thinks you are reading into it things which aren't really there. Or maybe they will dismiss you on the grounds that your culture politics don't seem to align with their own, and so they choose the new look just be contrarian in that way. Relying on crib terms like "woke" and then threatening the specter of failed sales or all caps disaster to make your points, substituting your own view for that of product consumers around the world, it just makes many peoples eyes gloss over too. Sorry, but that's what happens. It might actually be possible to change a couple minds on the specific point at issue, but drag in all the rest of that stuff and you lose the argument before it even starts. The reason there are 3 threads now, is because they keep getting derailed by people trying to be social provocateurs, and for some reason choosing this Minthara molehill as the one to die on. I mean everyone here is a visual traditionalist already, at least in the sense that the BG3 art is all figurative and grounded in the traditional. It's not wading into conceptualism or unmoored by abstraction from any way to actually talk about it as art without relying on philosophy. But whatever, I guess some of these divides are just totally intractable now and this stuff is going to be a ubiquitous feature of modern life for anything that involves criticism of any sort. But seriously, we're here talking about the makeup right now. I don't think my preference for black eyeliner over silver eyeliner in this particular instance says anything whatsoever about my views on gender, or women, or normality. Or I don't know, maybe it actually does, but that conversation probably isn't terribly interesting and its unlikely to move anyone in the art department. So why does that need to get inserted into the conversation? It doesn't. It really doesn't.

The main point in favor of the old makeup haircut and outfit (over the new makeup, haircut and outfit), is that the old look produced better cast shadows and made the figure appear more vignetted in shadow. They seemed to hold better both in low light conditions and in full light conditions, as evidence from the many side by sides in this thread. The play off the environment lighting was stronger, whether that light is scattering blue or flickering orange. The animations were stronger too. Everything about her appearance was bolder and more impactful in the previous rendering. Regardless of whether one finds Minthara objectively hot or not, or thinks that's important for whatever reason. They don't need to make the cover of vogue italia here, but I think they should aim for a good villainous aesthetic since this is one of the main villains in act 1. You know, if you're looking for a tradtion, how about long tradition of villainous looks from D&D fantasy art, since that's the only one that should really matter here.

Problem is she looks like a 15 year old boy who could be b*tch slapped out of the way because they're not a menace. The old Minthara looked more "powerful, influential, capable". The new one looks like he should be making propaganda videos at the WH.
Originally Posted by IdPreferNotTo
Yes, maybe her new slightly less constricted and more frail/human look is better now than it was before, since it apparently slightly detracts from the "beauty" of her retrograde storyline.

Sorry, but you can't really separate the aesthetics of someone's story from their face. I think her previous look was aesthetically more functional/traditional/regressive within her 'M. Butterfly' -type of story, which is where her perceived beauty, or lack of it, lies. Zooming in on bad makeup, hairstyles etc. is just another way to avoid tackling the "sacrificial idiot foreign madwoman"- aesthetics of her storyline. Based on reactions to her new look, it appears she was more palatable sacrifice as long as her looks were more in line with her crude characterization as a fanatical, one-dimensional, morally reprehensible, subjugated and mentally shattered foreigner: a psychopath with subjugated "mad eyes" and corresponding makeup, that, if we believe OP, previously signaled both psychosis and psychopathy(psychosis and psychopathy are two totally different types of "crazy" btw), at the same time.

BG3 slightly modernizes this sacrificial storyline mold in the sense that it allows the player to join Minthara in sipping the flayer cult squick-koolaid and doomer romance her as the romantic proxy of the new emerging squick god.

Completely disagree with you. She now looks like she needs to be put down like a rabid dog. An Eye-sore, better buried and dead than every looked at again.
Originally Posted by Zellin
Soo... those Avallonkao screenshots gave me better shot at photoshopping her makeup, and I took it. Also look at her brows. I don't think the problem is in the color itself, it's that they have very little to no contrast with her skin. So I made a version with much lighter brows.
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

So Minthara is a male.
Originally Posted by KeinSklave
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by KeinSklave
Calling it as it is, that is a sign of Woke people who hate "normies" and all normal beauty standarts.
If those Woke people do not get booted quick at Larian it will be a DISASTER for sure and hurt the selling of the game.
Because the product consumer around the world is very tired of this.

The majority of people do not like Woke styled characters of both genders. They are cringe and offensive in itself.

let me get this straight. A female character having short hair and makeup you don't like is "woke", and it's cringe and offensive. Do you hear yourself? "normal beauty standards"? What is that exactly?


OKAY, okay - maybe I am overreacting. Already calmed down again about this matter.
It is just my fears & worrys are often coming to live and I am can't deal with this anymore.
I want Baldurs Gate 3 to not "s*ck" and be good.
And Minths current hairstyle is giving me reason for concern.

You do not know what the traditional and therefore 'normal' beauty standart is?
For Women it is the stereotypical features associated with feminimity. Long hair, not obese, not punk or anything.

Especially with Elves in a fantasyworld who are known for their great vitality and extrem lifespawns.
It makes lots of sense that they have long hair that is not getting weaker at all even if it reaches their waste.
Not necessarily "Lord of the Rings" style but you get the overall image.

They do not have "punk culture" and hair that looks like they have just recieved a very powerful electrical discharge.

Minthara looks "OLD" even for an Elf(Drow) and her hairstyle looks like that of those ugly SJW's & Feminists.
Of Feminists with all their crazy ideas that are in fact NOT female empowerment but female depowerment.
And a revenge of less attractive Women against naturally attractive Women.
Most Men
° are not attracted to overweight Women
° not interested in the freakist hairstyles
° or more piercings & tatoos than teeth
° or make-up that looks like the indication of a poisonous frog


That is just a very bad design choice and if Larian is smart - they will not put THIS Minthara into any trailer during release!
Same as a few other characters.
People are very very tired of seeing their fantasy invades by political agendas & progressive bullsh°° that sends a message that no one wants.

Every studio should be smart about this!
Screw the NewWorldOrder system hired "critics", instead win the audience over!


I guess ultimately I will not care how Larian decides though.
And if I have to install mods for days or something before I can play.
I will totally do it and go through it no matter how annoying or painful it gets.
Everything - before I endure this repulsive "official version".

This Minthara looks weak & like a political agenda that has nothing to do in Faerun.

Wonderfully put. Applause, +1 to you.
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Yeah I think so, the Daisy name I mean. Ever since KillerRabbit made that tinfoil hat "bicycle built for two" thread. It must have been written down somewhere, perhaps in the mine? Just shorthand for the worm in our head.

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=763875

I think it makes sense, again like Total Recall, that our cosmetic inputs there might have some bearing on who we encounter later. Minthara has her own VO and head model and such that can't be accessed without mods I guess, but it still seems like an entertaining idea. Even if just for the makeup or the eye color, the haircut and such. Dotmats I think also raised the idea in that one BG3 video he made, that modern RPGs are really trying to just play off the real doll 'play as who you want to sleep with' sort of ideal, which is what gives these games all those familiar YA pitfalls. It would be interesting, since the tadpole thing is so baked in, to go all meta there. As like a running commentary on the typical player choices. They seemed to have a good laugh in their first EA newsletter, when they realized that everyone was just using the most bland model choices available, instead of like tieflings with horns and blue hair lol. They may have gotten an equally boring result for Daisy, if they were tracking it in their analytics. I don't even bother to change her face model anymore. I click the voice from 2 to 4, since the Scots accent sort of grates, and maybe click a different haircut just for flair, but otherwise Daisy is just the drow gal they throw at me, since the choices don't seem to affect anything other than one or two introspection cutscenes. It could at least be randomized, but they didn't go there with the custom PC character creator, so I guess why would I expect them to do it in the sub-character creator hehe. It would be cooler though if the choices there actually impacted who we ran into among the NPCs somehow, or how they ended up looking.

Florrick and Kagha are putting Minthara to shame with their eye makeup chops. Nobody is signing up to get their cosmetology degree from the Absolute's "School of Absolute Beauty" now. Not with Patch 5 Minthara on the cover of the brochure at any rate hehe

I can almost anticipate that in patch 6 Minthara will have a new VO line where she says something like "Beauty is only skin deep!" before trying to cut someone. Or "All in the eye of the beholder" but like with an actual Beholder's eye in her hand. It'll just turn into the running joke. Too far along now to stop that from happening.

ps. You can't even see Minthara's eyebrows in the top animation above, since the brow color matches her skintone almost exactly now. It looks like when the stylist asks the makeup artist to completely cover a model's eyebrows, so new brows can be drawn on with a pencil. Perhaps in a totally different shape, or with a more severe angle or whatever, but where we can still totally see the actual eyebrows under all the powder. It just seems wonky and over the top catwalk, especially for this character. Again, if it was Astarion doing it, I'm sure he gets a pass. But Minthara? It just doesn't fit.

pps. further digression, but evil path should be like MInthara says "perhaps someday, in Menzoberranzan..." with that stary-eyed whimsy look like maybe she's changed deep down, but then the PC just says "Or not" and straight mercs her for the black armor and the misty step amulet at the last moment? hehe. So cold!

I mean she could still come back later and be all pissed about it, especially that you jacked her duds, and "what about all we shared, and the absolute?" before trying to kill you a third time. But that would just be better. She should be designed to get dropped in Act 1 and have her black armor taken by the PC, regardless of the path. Same as Drizzt in BG1 to BG2 follow up. Better Evil.

Evil path works best as comedy I think, but where the villain is still playing it straight. Like Alan Rickman's Sherriff of Nottingham or Edwin from BG. Minthara cutthroat evil of the previous look kinda had that for me, mainly in the hair I guess. Rocker hair, like late 80s early 90s blow out had a certain vibe, but this one is like a whole different sort of Minthara now. I still think black armor could sell it though. Maybe she's born with it, maybe its black armor

3ps. SWTOR was mentioned earlier, and the analogous character there I think is Thana Vesh. Like a one dimensional B villain psycho who'd slip into the background otherwise, except for being redeemed by her badass black armor. A sense of style that made her memorable. Talk about eyeshadow lol. In that game they played it where SW Baroness balked at every advance, whereas here Minthara is the one doing the pouncing to an almost comical degree, but I think the comparison is kind of apt. Same thing going on, I'd suspect, where without the right look the character would just ring sort of hollow and become instantly forgettable. Might be giving Minthara too much credit in that comparison, since Thana Vesh had the whole "I can do anything better than you" tease, and was being constantly thwarted by her insufferable Darth Lord whoever. I don't remember his name. But she stood out. She got the name rec. Same way Minthara did here. Even as a one note, the armor should look badass.

Her patch 5 outfit is like what you force the PCs to dress in at lvl1, so they can be excited to immediately find something that looks way cooler, not how you dress a villain heheh. They should really put in some work there for Minthara's duds, cause the new duds combined with the new makeup and all the rest is just dragging her down, like from B villain to D.

A straight male that sleeps around is a stud, not a slut. For other sexual preferences, then yes, they can be a slut.
So it turns out Minthara's armor is female. Lesson learned, should have checked in the game instead of relying on forum screenshots. laugh
Originally Posted by tetsuoinfernal07
A straight male that sleeps around is a stud, not a slut. For other sexual preferences, then yes, they can be a slut.

STUD = U + STD. Enjoy.

Also…yawn. How very 80s.
Thank you mods smile
I don't know what's more embarrassing. Minthara's new hair, or this thread. Holy wow lmao!

If I have to read the phrase 'sjw' again I might kill myself.

Minthara is a badass, & not every woman is overly feminine looking. Her voice/slight masculine appearance is fine, if only making some homophobic dudes tingly in the pants and they're mad about it.

Although, I was more disappointed in her new hairstyle at first, and prefer the original, I'm less mad about it/more used to it now. Although I think the darker eyebrows/darker eyes in general fit her better imo. But I suppose they're trying to diversify their females cuz if every single one all had the same dark, sultry eyes it would be a little much.

It would be interesting to see a third hairstyle emerge. I do like that this new hair style shows more of her face etc and ears. At the end of the day, who cares, I'd rather they finish the game then go back and forth on issues like this.
just checked minthara on youtube on patch 5. my opinion i don't like the change. she somewhat looks more like a dude. is larian intending minthara as a trans?
Weclome home thread! Well done!

heheh yeah, this one is a doozy. I mean I didn't really remember D&D being quite so polarizing or such a bastion for casual chauvinism even just a few years ago, put perhaps that's just me being naïve? I suppose eventually it'll probably break into two things, and two audiences with incessantly warring factions, like everything else in modern culture.

Just to be clear, I really wouldn't care at all if they've decided that's the new deal with Minthara, and she's just supposed to be like Mintharus now or something? I still think they'd be cooler with Black Armor regardless. But if that is the plan, it certainly seems like throwing a stick of dynamite onto a pile of woodchips and gasoline soaked rags at this point, just given the response to other games that tried to do something similar without putting sufficient thought into it. Such things shouldn't come across as an inclusivity afterthought, or as a last minute bait and switch. I mean they could do it, but you know it would probably activate like every troll sleeper cell on the internet and turn this place into an instant nightmare like the steam forums. Sometimes ill advised things are done purely to garner publicity, so who knows, but I suspect it was probably just a goof and the next patch will probably revert to the old appearance. Or maybe show off a new one? I still think Black armor is the ticket, come what may.

If they did do that though, like they just made Minthara hella butch purely to break Onemanarmy's heart lol? It seems kinda capricious, but also funny cause like obviously that would be the one thing Larian read in the entire feedback section and decided to go thermonuclear option mad with it? Just give us some black armor to loot, and I'm with whatever. Doubtless there will be other drow down the line to pine for. I mean one could hope
i'm honestly not impressed if larian is trying to join the woke community. understand that many devs now want to show they support inclusivity. but don't force it for the sake of just want to have it.
Yeah, I don't like that haircut at all. If you don't give me attractive drow romance then I'm out. Especially when we can't play Vhaeraun drow.

All you have to do is make her jaw less angular and keep longer hair.
I'm not a fan of Mintharas new 'do or make up. But I'm seeing some guff about her voice too? I think her VA is wonderful, just how I imagine a female Drow to speak Need to remember that in the Drow society, other than child birth, the females assume a moe traditionally masculine role and the males the more submissive traditionally feminine role. The males are usually the ones making themselves attractive, and yes the females do too, but as the ones who controls almost all aspects of their society, they don't need to primp as much, acknowledging they have the upper hand.

Larian isn't being 'woke', they are trying to interpret the various cultures of FR and I think they are doing a really good job of it.

And, as pointed out, there are mods and will be mods. Mod away, because there is no way any dev will be able to make everyone happy and if they try the product will suffer. That's how the various modding communities came about afterall...because you can't please everyone.
Her VA is why I like the character. The VA pretty much is the character here. Change the VA and you might was well give her another name and make a new character. I think the voice work was great and merits a badass suit of armor and look to accompany it. I think the old look with the voice carried well. Better look would be black armor. Black Armor might not please 100% but I bet pleased enough to be an instant hit.
If you people of the 'Minthara fanclub' would really be into her as a character, you wouldn't care about her appearance.
#GiveMintharaShadowheartHair
Originally Posted by Sigi98
If you people of the 'Minthara fanclub' would really be into her as a character, you wouldn't care about her appearance.

BECAUSE we're into Minthara as a character, we want her to be even more awesome than she already is. As it stands, she's okay, but we can see the potential she really has.

I just finished playing through the fight against Minthara using Tabletop rules and stats and such. OMG! Minthara could be SO awesome.

Here's a taste:

Minthara (using Drow Priestess of Lolth stats with a few modifications for spell selection, etc.; she already used Bless once and still had it activate on the remaining 2 ogres and the 2 Sword Spiders. She used a 3rd level spell slot to bless the four creatures and 1 other which was now dead, so she had only 2 slots remaining)

It was then Minthara’s turn. She was no fool. She had not underestimated anyone. She recognized Gale upon the wall as her worst enemy; at least to start with. She wasn’t sure how powerful he truly was, but she didn’t want to take any chances. He had to die first.

And so, she cast Insect Plague. Instantly, swarming, biting locusts filled a 20-foot-radius centered on Gale. The sphere remained for 10 minutes or until she lost concentration, and its area was lightly obscured. The sphere’s area was also difficult terrain, and when it appeared, each creature in it had to make a Constitution save. The damage was 4d10 piercing damage on a failed save and half as much on a success. A creature had to also make a save when it entered the spell’s area for the first time and at the end of its turn there.

And so, Minthara rolled a 17 for damage, and Gale rolled a 22 for his save. He succeeded in taking only half damage, so a total of 8. He was fortunate. But he was not alone in the zone of swarming locusts. Vexir and Kaedyn both also suffered from the attack. Kaedyn rolled a 17 and took 8 damage, but Vexir took 17 damage because she only rolled an 11.

Minthara cursed when she saw that Gale hadn’t fallen. “Kill him first!” she commanded. “The wizard must die before the ogres and sappers move.”

Then, just a round later, after Wynari used Call Lightning (she and the heroes were Level 5 by this time), Wynari caused the goblin sappers to explode in a massive chain reaction of death and carnage as they rushed towards the wall with their smokepowder barrels.

Minthara’s eyes narrowed to slits. She saw Wynari as the smoke cleared, and she sneered. Wynari would be her next target for sure. She would die a horrible, terrible, painful death for what she’d just done. Half of her entire force was gone in moments. At that moment, she decided to change her strategy.

It was now Minthara’s turn. Seeing the battle going poorly, she drank a Potion of Speed, rushed forward 60 feet and used her Amulet of Misty Step to catapult her using a Bonus action another 30 feet. Then, with her remaining Action that round, she cast Guiding Bolt using her last Level 5 spell slot. If she hit, she would do 8d6 damage off of Wynari. She rolled a 21 and hit, dealing 27 points of damage. Wynari was still standing, but she only had 12 HP remaining. She also rolled an 18 and maintained her concentration on her Call Lightning Spell.

Then, a round later... (This is my favorite part.) smile

Next, it was Kaedyn’s turn. He knew Gale was struggling, and things would get very bad if he died completely, so he cast Healing Word again. He only had 1 level 1 spell slot remaining. He healed Gale for 9 HP. Then he cast Guiding Bolt using a level 2 spell slot. He hit Minthara with a Natural 20. In one hit, he took 33 HP off of her. Minthara screamed in fury and pain, the blast penetrating her black armor and searing her left shoulder. She now had a mystical dim light glittering on her armor, providing her next attacker with advantage.

Minthara was beyond furious. She ran 60 feet towards the wall, coming within 60 feet of it. There was a flash of light, an implication that she healed herself. Then, she cast Conjure Animals. She summoned 2 giant spiders near where Kaedyn was above the gate just to the east. Then she seemed to wink out of existence for a moment only to be seen running the rest of the way right up to the gate.

The giant spiders raced over and attacked Kaedyn, teaming up on him. The first failed to bite him with a Critical Miss, but the second flanked him and got advantage, rolling a 21 as its highest roll. It did 10 damage. Kaedyn resisted poison, but the damage was 13, so he still took 6. He was definitely hurting.

Lae’zel saw Minthara, alone, by the gate, and decided to take up the challenge. Doing something no one expected, she drank the last Potion of Speed, used her Githyanki Psionics Jump ability which tripled her jump distance, and she jumped down to land near Minthara. She rolled a 27 for her Athletics roll, landing like a cat without damage right near Minthara, Blooded Greataxe now in hand. Using Action Surge, she took another action and swung, rolling a 17 total to hit as her highest die. Minthara dove out of the way at the last second. She was much harder to hit than Lae’zel had expected. Still, Lae’zel felt the surge of battle within her. She would face this incredible foe in combat, and she would win.

This made Lae’zel every goblin’s primary target. Minthara was now being attacked in melee, and the goblins feared for her life. The Goblin Boss ran 30 feet towards them and fired. He received advantage for flanking Lae’zel, but he received disadvantage for long range. Therefore, he just rolled 1 die. He got a 16 and missed. Being so close to Minthara, he didn’t dare use another Thunder Arrow, so he had only used a poisoned one.

It was now Wynari’s turn, detecting that Minthara was within range to gang up on her, Wynari let the Call Lightning spell go. There was too much of a chance of harming Lae’zel, and Wynari had better plans. Minthara would not escape them, no matter what. So she cast Conjure Animals and summoned 2 brown bears to flank her and hem her in against the gate.

Then the first bear attacked and rolled a 17 and Natural 20. It did 11 damage off of her as a Critical Hit. It attacked with its claws and got a 21, hitting again. This time it did 9 damage. The second bear then hit Minthara with a 21 and did 8 damage. Then it did a final attack and hit with a Natural 20. It did 19 damage to her. But the bears were utterly confused. They could not figure out why their attacks were not taking Minthara down. She was right before them, and yet she seemed very much like nothing more than a ghost.

The reason for this was that Minthara was not actually at the gate. She was still 60 feet from the wall. She had played a devious, little trick on them. She had arranged the maneuver previously with her two goblin booyahgs who were a mere 60 feet behind her. After running 60 feet, Minthara pulled out a spider totem and used it to cast Conjure Animals. Because it was a special magic item, it did not require her concentration. The 2 spiders would exist until they died or for up to 1 hour. Period. She did not have to focus on it.

This allowed her to use Invoke Duplicity as a second action with concentration, and she had used it to project a perfect illusion of herself. She made it appear some 30 feet in front of her, making it seem as if she did Misty Step again, or something similar. Then she used a Bonus action to send her duplicate to the gate another 30 feet beyond.

At the same time, one of the two goblin booyahgs cast Darkness using yet another of Minthara’s magic items so that it engulfed the evil Drow Cleric but not her duplicate. Immediately, even those with darkvision could not detect the real Minthara. They could only see her duplicate. The booyahg had readied her action, waiting for Minthara’s signal which was her casting Conjure Animals. As for the healing spell, the second booyahg used Healing Word on Minthara just before she had been engulfed by magical darkness. The booyahg had healed her 15 HP using a higher level spell slot.

In the darkness of the night, the ruse was perfectly executed. Minthara was completely hidden from sight, and only her duplicate could be seen. The bears might have been confused, but they were dumb animals. They could not even remotely guess the truth, and Lae’zel had missed the duplicate, so she was still thoroughly convinced that she was, in fact, fighting the real Minthara.

But the Booyahgs had only used their reaction from the previous turn to do all that they did. They had readied their actions from the previous turn. Now it was their turn again. Both cast Guiding Bolt. The first hit Bear 1, dealing 10 damage. The second hit Bear 2, dealing 11 damage. The remaining goblins then attacked. They all aimed for the two bears as well, for they recognized that they were easier to kill but very much a threat to their Dark Lady. Both Brown Bears died, stuck with nine arrows between them.

Zevlor then launched Magic Missiles again at Minthara, or rather, who he perceived to be Minthara. This, finally, revealed the truth. The missiles shot right through the duplicate, striking the ground beyond. Horror filled Zevlor’s eyes. “An illusion!” he cried through gritted teeth.

Elegis was about to fire at the duplicate as well, but at the last second she recognized the deception and raised her sights towards one of the goblins. Her aim was way off, for she rolled a 1; a Critical Miss. She had fired before really aiming well, and her arrow sailed way over the goblin’s head. Then the other two Tieflings fired at the Goblin Booyahgs. One hit and the other missed. The one who hit killed the goblin Booyahg with a single shot through the chest. Fortunately for Minthara, this was not the goblin who was maintaining the Darkness spell.

Round 4. Vexir searched the battlefield for Minthara, but she could not find her quickly. Therefore, she fired at the second Booyahg. Too bad it was at a disadvantage because of range. She rolled a 20 and 11 on her dice. She had to go with the 11 for a total of 16. She still hit, but it wasn’t a Critical. She did 7 damage; not enough to kill the Booyahg. She reloaded and fired again. She hit with an 18 and did 4 more damage. This put a bolt right through the goblin’s abdomen. The Booyahg fell to the ground; dead.

The Darkness vanished. The real Minthara appeared. “Son of a…” Vexir nearly cursed, but she stopped short. Minthara was smiling again. Vexir could see her in the dim light of the fading fires. It was as if she had something far more sinister still planned for them. It unnerved the Drow Battlemaster to no end.

Ryth-Shan, however, didn’t hesitate. Hunter’s Mark was on Minthara, and he fired. He rolled an 18. Minthara batted the arrow away with her shield as if she was swatting a fly. He fired a second time. The same result. Minthara seemed hardly concerned.

Gale then staggered out of the cloud of insects only to realize that it had already vanished. When Minthara had used Invoke Duplicity, she could no longer concentrate on her previous spell. Therefore, it had vanished like a wisp of smoke. Gale’s eyes then focused on Minthara. “Allow me to wipe that cocky grin off your wretched face,” he muttered to himself. Then, he cast Lightning Bolt. Minthara resisted. Gale did 24 damage to her, but she only took 12. Minthara lost her concentration from the damage she suffered, rolling only a 1 to maintain it.

Now it was Minthara’s turn. She cast Cure Wounds using a level 4 spell slot, healing herself 4d8+6 HP. She received 21 HP back. Then she did it again and healed another 29 HP. She was almost full health. It was as if they hadn’t even touched her. Finally, she used Shield of Faith to increase her AC by 2. As if all that wasn’t enough, she then ran to the wall off to the west side as opposed to where Lae’zel was at the gate. It wasn’t entirely clear what her next move was going to be.

Lae’zel was furious. She charged and jumped. With her Jump Githyanki Psionics activated, she could jump triple her distance. Thus, she landed near Minthara within attack range. She brought her Blooded Greataxe down with a vengeance. She hit with a 26 and did 13 damage. Minthara lost her concentration, and Shield of Faith was dropped. Lae’zel then tried to hit her again, but she failed to connect with only an 18. Minthara dodged to the side, Lae’zel’s weapon only grazing the evil Drow’s shoulder plating.

Minthara laughed mockingly. “You have the accuracy of a blind gnome, Gith,” she quipped.

“I will END you!” Lae’zel shot back in fury.

“You have no idea who you’re dealing with,” said Minthara in reply.

Round 5...

Ryth-Shan didn’t care about the goblins. He wanted Minthara’s head. Therefore, he fired at her twice. Since he was flanking her, attacking her from a different angle than Lae’zel was, he got advantage. Still, his first shot missed completely. He aimed better for the second shot and hit with a Critical Hit. The shot was incredible, piercing deep into Minthara’s shoulder. He did 44 damage total. Still, Minthara did not fall.

Minthara was hurting, but she used her last Level 4 spell slot to heal herself. Thus, she healed 25 HP. She cast Shield of Faith again and took a swing at Lae’zel. The Gith dodged effortlessly with a laugh. “Who’s blind now, Drow!” she retorted. Then she countered and missed, slicing air.

Minthara didn’t reply this time. She just smiled as if toying with Lae’zel. This enraged Lae’zel even more, for all she wanted to do was wipe that grin off her enemy’s face. She tried a second swing, but once again she only created wind. She then used her Second Wind to heal 8 HP.

Round 6...

With the numbers thinned, Vexir decided to take Wynari’s and Lae’zel’s lead. She rushed to the edge and dropped down as she pulled out her Everburn Blade. She failed the roll, rolling only an 11 total. So she suffered 3d6 damage, losing 8 HP. Still, she had enough movement to get back to her feet, and she swung at Minthara with advantage because she was now flanking her.

Vexir rolled a 14 and 19+5=24. She missed, for Minthara’s armor gave her 19 AC alone, for it was Plated Armor + 1. Her shield added +3, taking her to 22. Her Haste spell then added 2 more, taking her AC to 24, and Shield of Faith took her to 26. That meant that, with only a +5 to hit, Vexir had to literally roll a Natural 20 to hit Minthara.

Vexir’s eyes went wide as Minthara deflected her blow effortlessly. She could have sworn the blow would have landed hard. She tried a second swipe, but it had the same result. She rolled 24 as her highest roll. Minthara batted her huge, flaming sword away like it was nothing.

“Her defenses are too strong!” Vexir cried. “I need someone to break her concentration!”

Ryth-Shan heard her and fired. He missed by rolling only a 20 total. His second shot was only 18. Her armor alone deflected his shots. Gale was now free to assist, and he and Will-o’ ran to the edge of the wall. Dragon’s Breath would never reach that far, but Gale could hurl Magic Missiles at the evil cleric. He did 9 damage, but Minthara succeeded in her save by rolling a 20. Gale cursed.

Minthara laughed. “Die! Fools!” she cried, and she attacked Lae’zel. She rolled 19 and hit. She did 8 damage. Lae’zel rolled and resisted Faerie Fire, for Minthara’s mace cast Faerie Fire on anyone it hit automatically. However, since Lae’zel succeeded in her Dex save by rolling a 20, she needed a 15, she avoided the spell’s effects. Minthara actually had Multiattack, and she struck again. This time, she rolled an 18 and missed, her mace bouncing off Lae’zel’s armor. Since she was hasted, she got a third strike, and she swung one last time. She hit Lae’zel with a 22, dealing another 5 points of damage.

Lae’zel was struck upside the head. She flew to the ground, blood oozing from the wound. Because of this, the Goblin Boss turned and fired instead at Wynari. He, however, missed by rolling only 8 to hit. Wynari also registered Vexir’s warning, and she decided to rethink her own strategy. Moonbeam had a better chance of hitting. She cast it, dropping the moon’s light down so that it only fell upon Minthara. She had to be so careful, for Lae’zel was so close, and so was Vexir.

Wynari rolled an 11 for damage. Minthara succeeded in resisting by rolling a 21. She only suffered 5 damage. She rolled again to maintain her concentration and succeeded by rolling an 18.

Round 7...

Vexir tried again to hit Minthara, but this time she didn’t even get advantage. Lae’zel was down, and no one was flanking the Drow. She swung twice but neither roll was a Natural 20. Minthara caught Vexir’s blade with her mace and shield and held it a moment. “You should have surrendered when you had the chance,” said the wicked Drow with a gleam in her eyes. “Now you’ll die like the rest.”

Then Ryth-Shan scored a Critical Hit and did 44 damage. His arrow shot into Minthara’s skull from above. Blood spewed everywhere, and even the shaft of the arrow vanished inside his foe. It was a kill shot for sure. He screamed with delight, for he believed wholeheartedly that Minthara was dead.

But Minthara had activated Survival Instinct, the same Illithid Power that Shadowheart and Kaedyn had. If her HP reached 0, she would be restored 3d4 HP instead of falling. So instead of dying, black tendrils shot out of her skull, shoving the arrow back out. They mended her injuries, engulfing her in black, inky darkness for a moment. She rolled a 20 and lost her concentration (for she needed 22 to not lose concentration since that is half of 44 damage), but she was still very much alive.

Ryth-Shan was pissed and fired a second time. He was determined to save Lae’zel and avenge her at the same time. He still got advantage, because Vexir was flanking her, so he rolled a 12 and 25 for his attack rolls. All because Minthara lost her concentration, Ryth-Shan hit. This time, he did 21 damage with his Psionic Longbow and Hunter’s Mark. Ryth-Shan’s arrow struck Minthara in the chest, right in the heart.

Minthara staggered, her eyes widening in disbelief and fear. It couldn’t be happening. She couldn’t be dying. She was so sure that she would defeat them. She had been so confident in her faith in the Absolute and in her own abilities. All those years she had fought to prove herself. Wasted in a moment. A single, well-placed shot followed by a second, and Minthara Baenre was no more.

She fell to her knees, clutching her mortal wound. Staring up at Vexir, she shook violently as her vision began to darken; that wicked darkness that no vision could penetrate. The last thing she saw was Vexir’s strong, stoic expression. There was no pity there in Vexir’s eyes. There was no sorrow. There was only disgust and disapproval. It was the same disapproval she had witnessed so many times in her life… in the Underdark… from her own people. The Absolute had promised her that she would rise above such failings. She would finally prove that she was, in fact, someone worthy of honor and praise.

In the end, it was merely empty promises...

Minthara fell into impenetrable darkness. Fear clutched her soul; fear and damnation. Her soul was dragged to the Hells, and there she suffered far more torment than she had ever administered to anyone in her life. For every pain she had ever inflicted, she endured it all at the same time… forever… There would never be salvation for her, for she had chosen to reject good and embrace evil. Such was the fate of all who lived their lives in such a manner.

Now... THAT is a wicked, evil drow Cleric of the Absolute. In her black plated armor + 1 with shield + 1 and her magic mace that causes Faerie Fire, she is a formidable boss bad guy using Drow Priestess stats. The fight was incredible and tons of fun to play out. I don't care if Minthara has short hair. Change her overall look and make her tougher and keep the current voice actress, and even add a few more lines for that voice actress to make her even more awesome, and Minthara will quickly become one of THE most memorable enemies of the entire game. She already is for me, but only BECAUSE we made her better in our Tabletop session.

Currently, in BG3 right now, I played this same battle. Here was the result:

Minthara, two spiders, two ogres, bugbear, and like twenty goblins versus my 4 party members, Zevlor, Elegis and like a few others. I blew up some barrels, killed lots of goblins and ogres and spiders. Minthara and a Bugbear were all that remained. I ran up to them, finished the Bugbear, and killed Minthara in a couple of rounds. She had no chance at all and died without much of a fight at all. Not a single one of my characters fell or was injured too badly at all. I lost an NPC to a Sword Spider, but that was only due to a game glitch. For some reason, my spell did something janky and blew nothing up. The Sword Spider was low on health. If I'd hit the spider like I should have, it would have died and the NPC wouldn't have. So, in my playthrough of the video game, this same fight was super easy, Minthara was a weakling and died a baby cleric's death.
Posted By: Feffle Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 24/08/21 08:33 PM
As someone who doesn't own the game, but is ravenously consuming BG3 content on youtube, I only recently saw the change and wanted to say I prefer the old look. I did mistake Minthara for a male when I first saw her new look.

To me, the old hair conveys that Minthara is driven yet cunning. The unkempt hair combined with her co-operation with goblins, shows she isn't concerned with prettying herself and is more focused on achieving her goals. This hair covers the sides and the back of her head, which gives the impression that she's hiding more of herself. The 5th patch hair makes Minthara look more aggressive and straightforwardly evil, because it is shorter and sharper.

I was looking at both pictures while playing through her voice lines, and I think her voice matches better with the new short hair. However, combined they make her seem so comically over-the-top evil that I could actually imagine her wearing a 40k commisar uniform. If you pair her voice with her old hair, I think the player will be surprised with the contrast between the softer look of her hair and her ruthless voice lines, which could emphasise her deceptiveness. This contrast might also tempt more people into romance because of "gap moe".

That said, I haven't seen any videos that showcase her cunning, apart from the romance. I also noticed some people who enjoy her new hairstyle more, and I think if any female character were to wear short hair, a drow is a good candidate. Alternatively, you could give it to a female fighter, with examples like Casca from Berserk or Cassandra from Dragon Age: Inquisition. There's just something about Minthara's current look doesn't sit well with me, maybe remove her bangs or something?
Posted By: Tara Grimface Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/08/21 03:14 AM
Originally Posted by Sigi98
If you people of the 'Minthara fanclub' would really be into her as a character, you wouldn't care about her appearance.

If you say so; I guess; we only had her with the same hairstyle, makeup and female ringmail variation for about 9 months. Video games are very visual experiences and eventually through gameplay; players start to associate characters with the voice actors; and I personally can hardly imagine a serious fighting woman caking her face with bright silver eyeshadow and going to war; it seems ridiculous to me.

We care about her appearance because we are "into her" not the other around.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/08/21 04:27 AM
What do you think of this appearance?

[Linked Image from 1.bp.blogspot.com]

Armor alone can make all the difference.

Well, I still think the eye makeup needs to go, so that there is more darkness around her eyes and all to make her more evil looking, but the armor makes a huge difference.
Posted By: Tara Grimface Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/08/21 04:34 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
What do you think of this appearance?

[Linked Image from 1.bp.blogspot.com]

Armor alone can make all the difference.

Well, I still think the eye makeup needs to go, so that there is more darkness around her eyes and all to make her more evil looking, but the armor makes a huge difference.

I like that armor and I think the color scheme is the best for Drow; dark colors work really well; the armor in the picture looks male though.

If she has the female variation and a face wash; she'll look good in my opinion
[Linked Image from i.redd.it]
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/08/21 05:10 AM
Female version would work better for sure.
Posted By: Archaven Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/08/21 06:16 AM
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Originally Posted by GM4Him
What do you think of this appearance?

[Linked Image from 1.bp.blogspot.com]

Armor alone can make all the difference.

Well, I still think the eye makeup needs to go, so that there is more darkness around her eyes and all to make her more evil looking, but the armor makes a huge difference.

I like that armor and I think the color scheme is the best for Drow; dark colors work really well; the armor in the picture looks male though.

If she has the female variation and a face wash; she'll look good in my opinion
[Linked Image from i.redd.it]

Wow so beautiful. Which game she's from? Personally it's kind of obvious what direction larian is heading towards with minthara design.
Posted By: Tara Grimface Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/08/21 06:23 AM
Originally Posted by Archaven
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Originally Posted by GM4Him
What do you think of this appearance?

[Linked Image from 1.bp.blogspot.com]

Armor alone can make all the difference.

Well, I still think the eye makeup needs to go, so that there is more darkness around her eyes and all to make her more evil looking, but the armor makes a huge difference.

I like that armor and I think the color scheme is the best for Drow; dark colors work really well; the armor in the picture looks male though.

If she has the female variation and a face wash; she'll look good in my opinion
[Linked Image from i.redd.it]

Wow so beautiful. Which game she's from? Personally it's kind of obvious what direction larian is heading towards with minthara design.

I just got it from google; but if they don't improve Minthara's appearance; I'm not buying any more of their games; I do see where the wind is blowing and I should have had my suspicions when they released their patch 5 on the numerologically apt July 13th; I think this is them testing the waters so to speak; but I'm waiting and watching to see what their final product will be.
Originally Posted by ash elemental
So it turns out Minthara's armor is female. Lesson learned, should have checked in the game instead of relying on forum screenshots. laugh

Technically yes you're correct regarding the in-game patch 5; the statements of my post had to do with my comparison of the patch 5 and pre patch 5 Ringmail in that it had a different more feminine variation for over nine months; which is what I showed; the chest used to have a small protrusion and the figure did not look as broad; The updated armor took away the unique aspects of the female ringmail model and made it look almost exactly the same as the male model; I associate the new patch 5 female Ringmail model with the male model; because they basically look the same the now; I consider the new female ringmail model to basically be the men's ringmail and the pre patch 5 ringmail to be a unique female model; I posted it that way because that's exactly how it appeared to me; I do not think their change was good and it does not make the female body models stand out in any way.

Though it is true some people like this new unisex armor; atheistically male and female Ringmail models look the same now; which I consider to be a horrible design choice; if they had done this change in reverse I probably would state they gave the male characters a female Ringmail model; they both had different unique aspects.

I just cannot consider this to be a be a female armor; with all do respect where did her breasts go? How does a woman's torso look as flat and broad as a man's.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
In pre patch 5 you can clearly see the slight protrusion of her breasts; furthermore the stitching on her Ringmail jacket goes further up nearly below her armpits; that makes sense when a female bosom is being supported; though in the patch 5 Ringmail she has no breasts; so further stitching on the sides of the jacket does'nt make any sense I suppose.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

When she wears the Ringmail in Patch 5 it literally changes her body type insofar that she no longer has breasts and even her arms look bigger unless she's naked; we've been talking about her hair, her makeup, her expressions, etc; but this Ringmail change I would contend is actually the biggest change she's had in patch 5. For over 9 months what she is now wearing we came to associate with the male Ringmail.

So because we're currently in patch 5; are we supposed to treat the over 9 month old pre patch 5 female Ringmail variation as if it never existed?; does it make sense to accept that the new patch 5 Ringmail that is a smaller scaled recolored variation of the male Ringmail; with nothing at all to distinguish it from the male Ringmail model that was used in both patch 5 and pre patch 5 is the female Ringmail model; that just so happens to be the same male Ringmail model that we've seen in all the patches; which has been recolored in patch 5 and replaced the unique female Ringmail that was used prior to patch 5?

My assessment is they destroyed any difference it had had from the male Ringmail model; they're virtually the same now; and so thus I stated Minthara is wearing the male Ringmail model(patch 5); because she is in a sense; besides the recoloring it's the same armor we saw for over 9 months on male characters.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

The Drow female Ringmail is entirely flat chested and broad now; just like the male variation and the difference shows when you compare it to the pre patch 5 Ringmail where there is obvious protrusion of the bosom.

Originally Posted by ash elemental
should have checked in the game instead of relying on forum screenshots. laugh

As I said at the beginning of both threads; we've been simply comparing and contrasting images and gifs; a lot of the commentary here is subjective; which was the intention; so yes I agree by all means use whichever sources of information that best suit your needs.
Well those armor sets in the top couple posts are about a thousand times better than the new ring mail.

Ring mail is such a silly armor concept to begin with, but at least in the old Minthara version the rings actually looked somewhat 3 dimensional. In the new ring mail they look completely flat, probably because of that horrid midrange brown. At least with the darker reddish leather trim the rings had some pop to them. I dislike the collar on both versions, but the older collar was at least somewhat subdued, the new one is all starched and flared, like disco, born to clip lol.

I don't like the color choices in the new ring mail set, the lighter browns and particularly that muted red in the sleeves. They also knocked off the brilliance from all the metallic components, so that now there are no highlights to break it up.

Feels like someone trying to make an already dull outfit even duller and somehow more garrish at the same time. It's whatever, they can make ring mail look as stupid as they want I guess, since ring mail is a dumb concept anyway, and doesn't really exist except in the D&D imagination. Rings that don't interlock aren't really "mail" at all, and probably not something a skull crusher would be decked in anyway, but that's a big neologism digression.

In any case, the Minthara character deserves a better outfit. A unique outfit! Preferably a black one, or at least something with the purples and darker hues on display in that nicely rendered armor from the second post above...

[Linked Image from i.redd.it]

I particularly like the Skull choker. That's a nice touch hehe
OK. I don't know exactly who created this character, but THIS is more of what I'm thinking of for Minthara. She looks SO much more intimidating:

[Linked Image from staticdelivery.nexusmods.com]

Give her Minthara's face, white hair, maybe red eyes, maybe not... SHOULD MInthara have red eyes since, you know, they were going for that whole Lolthsworn only have red eyes thing... lol.

Ah heck! Just go with this model. Dark hair would make her unique and cause her to blend in even more. Just use this model, put the little tattoo on her neck, and BAM! Minthara.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
OK. I don't know exactly who created this character, but THIS is more of what I'm thinking of for Minthara. She looks SO much more intimidating:

[Linked Image from staticdelivery.nexusmods.com]

Give her Minthara's face, white hair, maybe red eyes, maybe not... SHOULD MInthara have red eyes since, you know, they were going for that whole Lolthsworn only have red eyes thing... lol.

Ah heck! Just go with this model. Dark hair would make her unique and cause her to blend in even more. Just use this model, put the little tattoo on her neck, and BAM! Minthara.

this really looks good too!. if larian meant minthara as a 'she' then i think they shouldn't make her look like a dude honestly. other than what other obvious reasons, if larian want minthara as a 'them' then just make it so. don't mention 'she' but slap a man there.
Ah whatever. The point is that Minthara needs to look more evil. They need to remove that ring mail armor, which is dumb armor anyway. She's a cleric and could wear specialized Plate + 1 armor that only requires Strength 14 or something like that. That would give her 19 AC. Then give her a Shield + 1 so she'd get a +3 to AC if shield is equipped. That's 22 AC. That would make her a tough enemy right there. If she then cast Shield of Faith, she'd have 24 AC, making it so that the player would have a really tough time fighting her. She'd be the biggest bad-butt villain in the EA easily. The characters would have to roll a 19 or Natural 20 and/or have Bless just to hit her; or they'd have to use magic or explosives. She wouldn't even need to be level 7 or 8 then. She could easily be a level 4 enemy with maybe 40-somthing HP if she was hard to hit and she could use magic to heal herself. THAT would make a seriously awesome villain.

But even if the armor wasn't +1 and the shield wasn't +1, Plate armor would be 18 AC with shield adding +2 to make it 20 AC. Shield of Faith would make it 22 to hit. That would STILL make her incredibly tough. Either way, the look and quality of this final boss would be greatly enhanced by better armor than Ring Mail.

I love this look for Minthara so much, I'm thinking of changing my fanfic to match it. This player generated Drow in Drow Armor with black hair just looks so much tougher and more powerful to me. She just looks like she belongs in some dark, shadowy lair; someone ready to pounce on her prey and crush them. Give her the tattoo on the neck, replace the spider web decoration with the Absolute's symbol on her chest, maybe give her red eyes, and put a mace and shield in her hands. She would be a truly frightening enemy on the battlefield.

Actually, if you look closely, that symbol on the armor already kinda looks like both the tattoo Minthara has on her neck and the symbol of the Absolute combined. They might not even have to replace it. It would work as is.
You know, I just looked up Minthara's stats. Yeah, it makes no sense that she isn't wearing some sort of plate armor.

Strength: 15
Dexterity: 12
Constitution: 15
Intelligence: 12
Wisdom: 18
Charisma: 16
Proficiency Bonus: +3
Initiative: +6

The only prerequisite for Plate Armor is Heavy Armor Proficiency and Strength 15. As a Cleric, she should meet both of these. It also makes no sense that a boss villain would have plain Ring Mail armor at all. Why would she NOT have some sort of superior armor? She's a boss. That's when players SHOULD acquire awesome armor, while beating a tough boss bad guy.

The more I look into Minthara, the more disappointed I am with what they have done with her. There's no reason why she should wear plain Ring Mail and carry a plain Shield other than that Larian doesn't want her being too OP for the PC's. BUT, she would make a perfect villain with better gear if the PCs are either able to acquire better gear themselves beforehand OR we are given a party of 6 as opposed to 4. There are ways to make it work besides totally nerfing a potentially cool villain.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
You know, I just looked up Minthara's stats. Yeah, it makes no sense that she isn't wearing some sort of plate armor.

Strength: 15
Dexterity: 12
Constitution: 15
Intelligence: 12
Wisdom: 18
Charisma: 16
Proficiency Bonus: +3
Initiative: +6

The only prerequisite for Plate Armor is Heavy Armor Proficiency and Strength 15. As a Cleric, she should meet both of these. It also makes no sense that a boss villain would have plain Ring Mail armor at all. Why would she NOT have some sort of superior armor? She's a boss. That's when players SHOULD acquire awesome armor, while beating a tough boss bad guy.

The more I look into Minthara, the more disappointed I am with what they have done with her. There's no reason why she should wear plain Ring Mail and carry a plain Shield other than that Larian doesn't want her being too OP for the PC's. BUT, she would make a perfect villain with better gear if the PCs are either able to acquire better gear themselves beforehand OR we are given a party of 6 as opposed to 4. There are ways to make it work besides totally nerfing a potentially cool villain.
I'll hijack this slightly off-topic post to reiterate my argument on armor in BG3: its in-game availability doesn't make sense. We can get +1 studded leather armor and half-plate/+1 scale mail armor, but there is NO splint armor, let alone plate armor in the game! Even Chain Mail is gotten moderately late into EA, forcing heavy armor STR fighters to use Ring Mail or medium armor (which is terrible if you have a negative dex modifier).

Certain classes should be able to start with chain mail, and should get splint armor roughly around the time other classes are acquiring normal studded leather and breastplate (~level 3). Ring mail basically shouldn't exist in the game, as it is worse than the base armor given to heavy armor classes.

So yes, Minthara should certainly not have ring mail. She should have splint armor at the very least, but plate would also be a good option. Even medium armor (scale mail or breastplate) would provide her with more AC because of her dex mod of +1. Defeating her could grant the players their first opportunity to obtain splint or plate armor, which is appropriate for level 4 characters. Plate +1 would make it too difficult to defeat her and is too powerful a reward for lvl 4 players.
Exactly!

Like if the player could loot some good old regular Plate Mail from her, not only would that make her look cooler, but it probably makes the character more memorable at the same time.

I remember a bunch of villains from BG1, and its usually not because they were written in such a captivating way, but because they looked cool, and after they got merc'd had a cool piece to loot.

Like why do I remember Mulahey the Cleric of Cyric from BG1? Probably because of the badass Ring of Holiness he was wearing and Talos' Gift hehe. Not that BG3 should be tossing enchanted items that powerful at us so quickly (BG raced up the enchanted tree too fast in my view) but its kinda the same deal here, where a lvl4 boss encounter should yield some cool armor. You were stoked to defeat the first big bads in BG, cause they had some kickass loot. Getting that first set of heavier armor, or eventually the Full Plate Mail was an equally big deal, and I tend to remember all the locations and encounters where they were first acquired at the entry level.

We don't need a bunch of glowing super special chainmail and +1 stuff, when just a clutch set of Plate or Splint with a nice color scheme would do just as well. Her amulet is great, but I think some badass armor would really ice it.
in BG3 when you loot "special armors" you just loot a random armor and the NPC keep his wonderfull armor on his dead body^^
Yeah, that's fairly weak. Not that I would mind randomized loot, but I like when a game gives you what it shows you. It's always lame to see a really nice set of armor on a corpse, and not being able to take it lol.

Also to the image above, I actually wouldn't mind them giving us a Drow with dark hair for once. Especially since they are changing so much with the Drow these days. Drow are like the only race in Faerun that seem to have a set hair color, always white or some version of off-white. In practically all the published materials, we've never seen anything else.

I think trying to totally revamp Minthara's face might be problematic, but the difference between that warpaint look and the silver eyeshadow is like night and day hehe. It just looks so much better when her eyes are in shadow like that. Like when the orbitals are blacked out, it makes everything about her seem more menacing. Whoever took over her art design in the last patch has failed pretty hard in my view. They need to pass it someone else and try again.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
[Linked Image from staticdelivery.nexusmods.com]
I dunno ...
It is nice character to be sure, but for Minthara i just dont feel it. :-/

I mean the armor is cool, and i would honestly like it for her ...
Either that or sun-bleached version, since she CLEARLY allready spend tome time on surface ...

But she seem a little too "intentionaly" dark, intimindating, and stuff. :-/
I dunno if that makes sence. :-/

As for armor she is wearing ...
On the contrary ... i would say that her ringmail makes perfect sence ... her Drow armor was clearly ruined, therefore she had to find some replacement ... and what else should she wear except raid loot? laugh
Plate + 1 isn't too much. Think long term. By the time you reach Minthara, you are almost certainly level capped if you've played out most of or all of the side quests, etc. So, you should actually be roughly Level 5 by the time you face her. I understand that this is open world and you COULD get to her before that, but if you are foolish enough to face her at level 2 or 3, that's on you. In most video games, there is an end boss you have to grind up levels to beat. Minthara, Ragzlin and Gut should be those characters in EA. Yes, you can bypass them altogether if you want. Absolutely. But that just means even more so that she and others should be made to fit the story and not necessarily what level and/or equipment the characters have.

And you are going into the UNDERDARK!!! You absolutely should be able to have at least one character with Plate + 1 if you did something as awesome as kill off the bad guy goblin leaders. It would be a nice end quest reward.

And let's face it, not every character can use Plate Mail. You have to have Heavy Armor proficiency and Strength 15, so even if Minthara's armor reduced the Strength prerequisite to 14, which isn't necessary since she has Strength 15, only Fighters and Clerics could even use the armor. So if you're playing a Rogue, for example, you might, maybe, give the suit of armor to Lae'zel. That's it. Lae'zel might then prove to be a valuable asset to your journey in the Underdark where you face Minotaurs, the Bullette, etc.

Yeah. I think it's totally reasonable.
Try this appearance on for size. What do you think of this version?

[Linked Image from 1.bp.blogspot.com]
Now let's talk about Minthara stats. I just right clicked on her and Examined her to pull up these stats:

Class: Cleric of the Absolute
Race: Lolth-sworn Drow
HP: 57/57
AC: 16
Move: 30 ft
Size: Medium
Weight: 100lbs
Attitude: 0
Passive Features:
Xyanyde's Fire
SUNLIGHT SENSITIVITY
Dual Wielder: Bonus Armor Class
Dual Wielder
Darkvision
Strength: 15
Dexterity: 12
Constitution: 15
Intelligence: 12
Wisdom: 18
Charisma: 16
Proficiency: +3
Initiative: +6

WHAT? What is this? This is all jacked up! This makes no sense at all. She's a Cleric of the Absolute, and she can cast Mirror Image, so she is likely of the Trickery Domain. That's fine. I figured as much and guessed she could probably Invoke Duplicity also. As such, however, she should not be able to wear Ring Mail since that is a Heavy Armor and Minthara is of the Trickery Domain which does not grant Heavy Armor Proficiency. So, absolutely, the armor should not be Heavy unless she spent her Level 4 Ability Improvement on going Heavy Armor Proficiency. If this is true, then she would not have Dual Wielder, for that would be a Level 4 Feat.

And again, why is she wearing Ring Mail anyway. The armor sucks. Zevlor has better armor than that. You can tell because it's the same armor you can buy from the Tielfing Merchant. If she had that armor, Scale Mail + 1, at the very least, she'd have AC 16 and it would be more appropriate. Just give it a different look so she doesn't have the same exact appearance as everyone else including you.

Now, that aside, what is she doing with DUAL WIELDER!!! She uses a Mace and Shield. That alone should boost her AC to 18, not 16. The only reason she has AC 16 with shield is because she's wearing dumb Ring Mail AC 14 armor. And why waste a Feat on Dual Wielder? Are they planning on stripping her entire gear set eventually and turning her into a dual wielding Drizzt-wannabe with maces instead of scimitars?

And what is with Sunlight Sensitivity? Why is it SHE has this but our Drow characters don't? I, at first, thought Larian was going with some sort of "the tadpole negates sun sensitivity for Drow so sun doesn't effect them, like Astarion" kind of thing, but if that's true, and Minthara has a tadpole, then why is she Sunlight Sensitive but our MC isn't?

And for crying out loud, if she IS Sunlight Sensitive, why in all of the Nine Hells would she
attack the Druid Grove in Broad Daylight if you choose that path? She would NEVER attack the grove in broad daylight if she was sensitive to the sun. EVER!!!

So, I say, she needs another complete rework. Get rid of Dual Wielder which doesn't fit her character and gives her no added bonus to anything. Give her Heavily Armored Feat instead. Give her Plate + 1 armor to boost her AC to 19 without shield and 21 with shield (assuming you just give her a regular shield), and either strip her of Sun Sensitivity or make it so that every Drow in the game, including the MC, have Sunlight Sensitivity like they should. Even if you do nothing else for her in terms of stat changes, these would make a whole lot more sense.

And wow! 100 lbs? That's REALLY dang thin for a person with 15 Strength who doesn't appear to be any shorter than every character model in the game. I'd expect a 100 lb person to be short and petite. She should be maybe 5 foot 4 inches or something like that and pretty darn thin at only 100 lbs.

So, I would expect Minthara at Strength 15 and about MC height to be at least 150 lbs; maybe even more. Average Strength is supposed to be 10, so at 15 Strength, she should actually be pretty toned and muscular, like an athlete. So she should have considerable muscle weight. Even 150 lbs might not be enough unless she was shorter; like I said maybe 5'4" or 5'5".
Just to go back to the eye makeup...

Look how terribly the silver is drawn on!

Seriously, it looks like pixelated glitter. Badly applied too, like how it comes up onto the brow all blocky and reflective in the sidelight. With white brows/lashes you can't even tell what's going on, it just looks like it's glitching out or something. Why the hell are they doing disco glam glitter for this character? It's horrid, and it's drawn directly onto her "head" model now.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

I even tried to darken the skin tone slightly to see if that would make it read clearer, but it still looks all janky, especially with the double white for the lashes and brows. There are artifacts all over with the whites and silvers, you can see it even in the bangs here. Same thing happens with the new hair. Like the image is all rasterized or something. Its nit picking, but the modelling is so nice otherwise, that those little things grate on me. I mean can't they clean her up a bit?

They ruined an otherwise decent head model just to do this? Now the "makeup style" field no longer works properly for this face. The silver eyeshadow isn't just caked-on, its baked-in now too. Bad design choice, especially when the game already has a makeup editor built into it.

ps. I agree with all the points in the post above regarding her stats feats and equipment
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Seriously, it looks like pixelated glitter. Badly applied too, like how it comes up onto the brow all blocky and reflective in the sidelight. With white brows/lashes you can't even tell what's going on, it just looks like it's glitching out or something. Why the hell are they doing disco glam glitter for this character? It's horrid, and it's drawn directly onto her "head" model now.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Wow this really shows how bad that silver eyeshadow is; I cannot even imagine why they would do this; they need to get a woman who is competent at applying makeup to work on Minthara; they could have easily done a better job than this. When I look at artwork of Drow Females; none of them have bright eyeshadow; they all look good.

[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Try this appearance on for size. What do you think of this version?

[Linked Image from 1.bp.blogspot.com]

Big improvement! The eyeshadow is dark too; this would honestly work out pretty well.
That portrait illustration above by Aleksandra is a great example of how to handle hair with lost edges and such. The armor too. Sure the armor there is borderline royo erotica lol, but it still gives a nice impression of having some plate components. If there was an undertunic, or an under-hauberk with some mesh to protect the vital organs I think such a look would be essentially perfect. The prob with separate chestplates that hug the figure so closely is that they would direct a weapon towards the core/heart too easily. So it'd be a better design with a single breast plate, instead of two like a bra or bikini top, but otherwise I like the style elements. What we're seeing below is the fantasy equivalent of a babe in a trenchcoat and heels but lingerie or no clothes underneath. Obviously to work on the daily that armor set would need a cloth or leather component to be believable. Metal armor doesn't work like playtex hehe, but I think she was going more for the wowza effect, which definitely carries lol. Throw some chain under that getup though, and it's an instant win. I especially like the spider brooch and web-like strapping.

But the hair there especially, it's handled quite well, and I wish BG3 would do something similar. All the hair models in this game need to have their rastery-ness dialed back with some blur or something, so it doesn't give off that pixilation at various levels of zoom. They also need to work on all the clipping, because strands of hair clipping through ears or clothing is worse than having no hair strands at all.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

But yeah, dark eyes, whether red or purple I don't care much, just ditch the glitter. It's distracting visually and doesn't really look good at any zoom.


ps.

Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Wow this really shows how bad that silver eyeshadow is; I cannot even imagine why they would do this; they need to get a woman who is competent at applying makeup to work on Minthara; they could have easily done a better job than this. When I look at artwork of Drow Females; none of them have bright eyeshadow; they all look good.

I agree. Like anyone who pays any attention at all to what their girlfriend gets up to at her vanity should see that's a pretty poorly executed plan heheh. More glitter! More! I know just enough about wardrobe to know that I shouldn't be putting anything in the washing machine that isn't mine, but even I can tell that the new Minthara has like no sense of style right now! Someone needs to help her get it together. You can't be running shit for the Absolute looking like that. She needs like a makeup makeover intervention or something in patch 6 hehehe

pps. Here this is also interesting, I got the game to glitch out when selecting a non-standard skin color from the "all skin colors" tab or I don't know what happened exactly. It turned the normally silvery eyeliner from silver to red. The head model was in the one mod I bothered to download, which added some companion heads and a few more elf heads and such, but anyhow thought it was interesting. The rest of the makeup selection works as normal, so it's a feature of the head I guess. I'm not sure how it's unpacked or whatever, but you can see the makeup closer that way than the in game zoom. Its more like what we get in the cutscenes, but still rastery looking to me. Just tonally though, when the shadow is red rather than silver/white the read at a smaller zoom is much cleaner. So I guess give her some glitter if you want to, just make it a much darker hue so it's not so blaring haha. This red is still way too bright, but it's better than the silver and indicates where the problems are I think.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Personally I think Minthara totally owned that rocker hair!

But somebody somewhere asked what she might look like with a shadowheart braid, so this was as close as I could get to that. The choice of hair does make a pretty big difference in the overall vibe. Especially when the face isn't animated. Probably like a quarter of the characterization is coming from the haircut alone hehe. I just had her up in the chain cause cleric is the default in the char creator, but I think the colors work better and the armor is better, so that's for that lol

same head in the braid

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

same head in the topknot

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

and in that red carpet oscar night hairddo that everyone seems to like for the elf pcs. Probably because it doesn't clip through the ears like some others hehe. Maybe way off character for Minthara, but I think indicates why the haircut choice is such a big deal.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

fucks you up in volleyball Minthara? lol

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Makes a difference which hairdo she is sporting no doubt. I mean I definitely have a preference for some haircuts over others, but they are all made more tolerable when the silvery eyeshadow thing is dialed back (not bright red like the above, but maybe a very dark red or dark blue or dark purple) and when her brows and lashes are dark again. Even the standard pixie looks better that way. Hopefully they clean it up and don't let it settle too much. Any of the above would clearly be much cooler with plate mail or splint in darker hues.
After playing out the scene again with Minthara where you first meet her, I am once again so impressed with the voice Actress. She really makes Minthara. I found her hairstyle and outfit so fitting only because the VA makes it work. They could put her in a pretty princess dress with frills and lace and she'd still make it work.

That said, I still think the silver makeup has to go and the Ring Mail. She doesn't have to be in special Plate + 1 Armor, but something unique and more appropriate would certainly fit her VA better and her character.

And she needs more lines. Pay that talent well and give her more of a role. 😁
There aren't many illustrations of female drow that I actually like floating around. Like the pickings are already slim, and then I'm pretty nitpicky on top of that when it comes to figurative illustration. The portraits in BG1 and especially BG2 were all pretty crude shops at best for my taste, so I pine for something more.

IWD had much better portraits than BG cause they invested more heavily in creating an art team, but I'm sure it'd be pretty hard to find that same level of talent in one place these days. All those dudes have gone on to work in hollywood or for the major comics and fantasy publishers now, but D&D has always been one of the few places where figurative illustration still has a home and so there is a pretty broad range of material at varying levels skill and artistry. Of the 4 illustrations above I think only the images by Aleksandra Trezvina and Beyit work for me. The top would probably pass for a very small portrait, the middle has too many issue with the foreshortening. But again I'm picky hehe. Since this thread is already very image ladden, I wanted to include some examples of where I think the bar should be set, if Minthara ever gets here own splash loadscreen art.

Here, some illustrations that I thought were handled reasonably well, and where the painting presented a unique characterization. A couple more stylized, some more traditional, but still well executed in terms of the technique, brush strokes, proportions, color choice and whatnot.

Sorry for the added load time, but I think they are worth it, and this thread will surely bump to the next page soon enough anyway haha.

I believe this one is by Tooth Wu, though I could be mistaken. A lot of talent is overseas these days. For me it gives off a potential druid or wizard vibe, but like a Drow that doesn't look straight up evil. Maybe for an aevendrow type by the new reckoning.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

A Brom, just to set the tone. Crop from the Insurrection cover

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Something arcane archer-y, by Livia Prima

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

I don't really need the giant ears if the hair is working well, so this image by Stefan Koidl gives off an impression like a possible Drow warlock or wizard for me. Most of these are going for the latest, Drow are greyish blue or purple and elves basically look like humans, but just more super-model-y, where the wizards seem to be headed with it hehe.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Some midriff and a pair of knives by Dave Greco? lol It shows the other extreme of elves being more alien anatomically. This sort of elven look is a bit too manga for my D&D tastes, (I like more humanoid looking Elves, the way Alan Lee drew them, but that's just me) Greco makes up for it with attention to the background elements, the overall lighting and mood. Better hope no one goes for the gut on that one though! It's mage armor all day for her I guess? lol

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Here's a crop from the Council of Spiders cover. I think by Aaron Riley? It's not my favorite thing ever, but he gets bonus points for trying to pull off the ever ridiculous triple headed flail instead of the usual curved blades or bows lol

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

And finally something that I think would be a bit more Minthara-like, at least in terms of a functionally appropriate armored outfit. I don't know if it's Marko's or perhaps an understudy? but someone at Six More Vodka clearly knows what's what! Berlin will get the job done haha

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Anyhow, this is the level of illustration I feel that Baldur's Gate 3 deserves, and I'd like to see something more like that last when it comes to developing a look for a character like Minthara.

I don't want great again, I want even better than before.

Best
Elk
Here's a thought. What if the Voice Actress got that very same haircut and that was the inspiration for it. Now everyone's picking on it. 😯

I like the hairstyle as long as the armor and makeup goes. Thr more I look at the image of her with darker eye shadow, short hair, and drow armor, and the more I replay the scenes with her, the more I think just a few more tweaks like that would work. She doesn't need a total appearance overhaul. She just needs those few tweaks...

...and for them to fix her stats and have her only in Night Fights... because she's a drow... with Sunlight Sensitivity.
minthara really looks very wrong to me though. her nose, eyes and i think worst offender would be her lips would say. there are alot of suggestions in this thread. but i don't think larian will change much how she will look honestly. there may be a slight change but hoping her to change to a beautiful viconia or some drow art suggsted here would be a fool's hope i would say. hopefully it will be easier for modder to change how she look or replace her with someone entirely.
Originally Posted by Archaven
minthara really looks very wrong to me though. her nose, eyes and i think worst offender would be her lips would say. there are alot of suggestions in this thread. but i don't think larian will change much how she will look honestly. there may be a slight change but hoping her to change to a beautiful viconia or some drow art suggsted here would be a fool's hope i would say. hopefully it will be easier for modder to change how she look or replace her with someone entirely.

The problem I see is that their vision of elves, in general, is not good. In my opinion, they are just adding point ears to humans' heads and calling them elves/drows. Just look at the amazing lvl of work they've made with Tieflings, They could show some love for the elves too. Or maybe they will, in time.
I don't know, I think she's being judged by an almost impossibly high standard of beauty in that case. I'd point again to the base Minthara head model shown in 3/4 profile, with the Shadowheart style braid.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

There are only really a few things here that are differentiating Minthara from a straight up super-model face.

1. The bridge of her nose has been broken, so it has that mid ridge bulge, kinda sensible given her character type and fairly minor as far as broken noses go. You can barely even see it in the angle above.

2. Her orbicularis oris (where the various muscles of the cheeks connect to the lips) is slightly puffed up, giving her a permanent sourpuss or pissed off pouting expression or half smirk depending how you want to read it.

3. Her brow is furrowed, giving her the mark of Cain, or the Tau shaped indentation on her brow between the eyebrows, which we typically associated with someone who is constantly angry and scowling or racked with guilt. This is played up by having her eyebrows squared off and overplucked on the inside edges, which further emphasizes the furrowing.

4. the mental protuberance of her chin protrudes slightly and is just a bit more rounded than average. I think to make an elf face, or a half elf from a human scan, they just carve in the jawline and then add the ear models. Giving the elves a more severe jawline, though not necessarily a different cheek bone structure. All the head models kind of do the same thing there, so there's probably a mesh or something they can play with to emphasize or add some stuff that couldn't actually be there in the scan hehe.

Remove those minor accent and expression features that were probably played up in the scan and in the shading, and her basic head is essentially that of a Covergirl. I'd guess she is maybe one of the more classically attractive women in the Larian offices, and they probably just directed her to do a really thin-lip'd expression when they scanned her head initially lol. For me it completely works, given the character.

I think Tiefs have taken over from the Elves, as the default Manga looking D&D race now. The D&D race that has the more alien and otherworldly facial features, the very long ears and glowing eyes, that one might associate with traditional Elves as depicted by artists from Japan or South Korea or China. It's possible they might change course on it, but I think the Wizards art direction has settled on Elves as looking more or less like Humans, just with somewhat pointed ears and slightly sharper jaw lines, so I wouldn't expect much more on that front these days. Though they have changed this before many times so who knows.

Here's a Tiefling from Li Xiao Feng I almost posted earlier, as a counterpoint to the Drow Druid idea. Since we also haven't really seen many examples of Tiefling druids or rangers. This one gave off a bit of an underdark vibe to me as well.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

The Viconia portrait from BG2, while it was certainly one of the best portraits in that game, was still pretty poorly drawn by objective standards. All the BG2 portraits were like photoshop'd paintovers from photographs I'd think and there are lots of minor issues carrying over from where the artists decided to change certain proportions. In such cases it is fruitful to flip the image as if looking at it in a mirror, where it becomes much easier to see where the symmetry problems are. Her diadem for example is off center, and her left eye, left nostril, and the whole left side of her face has a somewhat different curvature going on than the right. Her lips are slightly off alignment too relative to the rest of the facial features. The sweep of her hair and the cowl of her hood is correcting for some of this, but there's still some wonk going on there. I suspect the face was made more narrow than the original reference, which is why her eyes seem to be sitting on different planes and at different angles, in addition to one eye being much more almond shaped than the other. If you cover one side of her face with your thumb (either side, doesn't matter) you can see that it's almost like two different faces. If you squint it looks fine.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Viconia's BG2 portrait still looks much better than the Jaheira or Aerie portraits in BG2, which both have way more issues going on. But again, I'm kinda picky hehe. I think many people who prefer a more manga look for elves, might actually prefer the BG2 Jaheira or Aerie portraits, simply because they look more otherworldly. Or perhaps it's a preference for the Zelda look over the Galadriel look when it comes to elves? But I tend to just see the anatomical issues. I think its simpler to draw a more alien looking elf face than it is to draw a convincing human face, since strange proportions can then be excused as a mark of style. But asymmetries stand out to me regardless, whatever elven look one might like best hehe.

ps. Its probably kinda unfair to single out Viconia there, since the images were meant to display at a very small size.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

I believe they were even smaller still, and BG would upscale them for the final display too, so with enough lost detail via scaling what I mentioned before doesn't really matter and the image totally carries. These days, with the wider monitors and everyone running at higher resolutions, the large size image wouldn't cut it for me. Although I bet if it was painted in a traditional medium, even at a very small scale on canvas, that Viconia painting I posted above would probably go to auction at like a million dollars, just from the cultural resonance alone hehe. So what do I know. At the time it was meant as what, like 60 pixels on the longest size? 8 bit bmp lol. I mean they got the job done for what they were asked to do, but these days and for Minthara I'd want more.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
After playing out the scene again with Minthara where you first meet her, I am once again so impressed with the voice Actress. She really makes Minthara. I found her hairstyle and outfit so fitting only because the VA makes it work. They could put her in a pretty princess dress with frills and lace and she'd still make it work.

That said, I still think the silver makeup has to go and the Ring Mail. She doesn't have to be in special Plate + 1 Armor, but something unique and more appropriate would certainly fit her VA better and her character.

And she needs more lines. Pay that talent well and give her more of a role. 😁

Dynaheir in BG1, Mazzy Fentan in BG2 & Minthara in BG3. Jennifer Hale has undergone an amazing alignment shift!

But, yes, I really like her as a VA, and much preferred playing her female Commander Shepherd in Mass Effect rather than Mark Meer's male counterpart.
Oh! I loved Mark Meer! One of the few games where I preferred the male VA (that and male Eivor in Ass Creed Vahalla). But that is not meant to dismiss Jennifer Hale. She is indeed a brilliant VA.
Originally Posted by timebean
Oh! I loved Mark Meer! One of the few games where I preferred the male VA (that and male Eivor in Ass Creed Vahalla). But that is not meant to dismiss Jennifer Hale. She is indeed a brilliant VA.

Quality-wise MM is very good, but subjectively I preferred JH. One of the problems with full VA ( and why I am happy to have a non-voiced protagonist ) is that no matter how good the VA, they do not always "fit" your sense of how the protagonist should sound.

Choosing a voice is actually the first thing I settle on in a fully-voiced game, rather than the gender. Unfortunately, not all games have a voice I like ( or any meaningful choice ), which is when I would prefer an option for a non-voiced protagonist.
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
Originally Posted by Archaven
minthara really looks very wrong to me though. her nose, eyes and i think worst offender would be her lips would say. there are alot of suggestions in this thread. but i don't think larian will change much how she will look honestly. there may be a slight change but hoping her to change to a beautiful viconia or some drow art suggsted here would be a fool's hope i would say. hopefully it will be easier for modder to change how she look or replace her with someone entirely.

The problem I see is that their vision of elves, in general, is not good. In my opinion, they are just adding point ears to humans' heads and calling them elves/drows. Just look at the amazing lvl of work they've made with Tieflings, They could show some love for the elves too. Or maybe they will, in time.

The Tieflings look so good; especially their skin.
I had no idea Minthara was Jen Hale!!! That is awesome.

Even more so, then, they need to give her a bigger part. 😌
Yeah I mean, she always delivers and its a point of connection with the previous titles.

Bastila Shan and Satele Shan Old Republic Jedi connects to boot!

I mean are we really gonna leave her hanging here with a lame outfit? I certainly hope not hehe.

I'm pretty positive they used a model to scan the head and not the voice actress. She's been a total chameleon and always has a totally different face.
Black threads, still my request.
Big props, like way up, for the new set of armor! That is the mean steel I was hoping for! Proper Drow now hehe

Well done!
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Big props, like way up, for the new set of armor! That is the mean steel I was hoping for! Proper Drow now hehe

Well done!

But Leather??? Patch notes say ring mail to leather. She's a cleric, though. I mean, it's a better look, but why not half plate or at the very least scalemail or breastplate? Why they like making her so weak?
Thanks to the Larian team for listening to us!

In patch 6, Mintara looks perfect: armor, makeup and hair are good.
I can't believe you guys did it. Congrats
So i finaly get to her ...
And i must say that hair looks much better in person, than in screenshots ... also her shield, and armor are just amazing, and
being able to loot it both, was magnificent!!!

So ...
Even tho i had my doubts, i must say that like this she is perfect. :3
What AC is the armor?
12
Does she have a higher DEX now? Is that why they gave her leather armor maybe?
Doesn't matter. That armor looks okay, but it is not fitting for a Drow Cleric at 12 AC. Give the woman some plated armor at AC 18, or at least a 15 or 16 + Dex. Ugh! 12?!

Back to the drawing board, Larian. Come on. Why you messing with us?
What are you talking about??
You asked about ARMOR AC not hers. :-/

Its regular value for leather armor and its fitting her perfectly.
Right. Leather Armor AC is not fitting for her. It's weak, like she's a Rogue.

Minthara is a cleric. Clerics should, at very bare minimum, wear medium armor like Half Plate which is 15 + Dex, or if they want to go for stealth without disadvantage, they should give her, at least, a Breastplate which is 14 + Dex. Make it +1 at the very least, because she's a boss and so it is at least special in some regard so when you kill her you get some sort of cool armor.

OR, make it Light Armor but give it AC 15 + Dex so it's really cool armor and your rogues and warlocks can use it and get awesome AC. That would be cool. I could see her wearing a Leather Armor with specialized high AC that equals medium armor AC, but not Leather at 12 AC. That's super lame and virtually worthless.

Leather 12 AC is like "Yes! I killed a boss. Let's see what she has. What! AC12 Leather! Pshh! Lae'zel wears half plate and my MC can wear Scale +1 and Shadowheart can wear Scale +1 too, and that's WAY better, and I got that as soon as I got to the grove. Minthara is lame. Her equipment sucks and isn't hardly worth picking up."

Again, new look is great. Stats? Still lame.
Sounds like matter of perspective ...
I would say that give players +3 leather armor this early in the game would be lame.

Later today i shall check her stats when get to computer.

But quite honestly ...
If i had to decide between ridiculosly OP loot from this easy boss...
And some ridiculous buff that have no support in rules to make her compareable even tho she is wearing Leather only ...

I would choose the second.

If you would like her to drop so strong armor, the all goblin leaders would have to be together for a fight ... to make you earn it.
Cool Shadow Armor Leather with a decent enchantment seems fitting for what is essentially the curtain falling on the first major arch of the story.

I mean the analogy would be the coolest armor one could get at the same point in BG1. In Beregost with the bonus to hide in the shadows and move silently. It was expensive, but you could still pick it up and that felt like a real accomplishment. I believe that's what they're shooting for maybe here?

Even if not, I can imagine other ways to buff her up if needed. Lets not lose the cool looking armor we finally got though. Just boost it up a bit instead. I mean it does have the word Drow in the description right?

I respect the designer for knowing what leather armor actually looked like, with hardened leather in bands and plates, not like some tight and flexible form fitting leather jacket anachronism that we typically see for such armors hehe. I like the color scheme too. Compared to the patch 5 look it's like praise the Absolute!!!

Of the Goblin bosses Minthara is definitely the fiercest in presentation. I mean given that she leads the attack on the grove, which is the big fight with the highest stakes along either path. If not exactly the most challenging. I think they will likely play with her stats and such until she's a fitting menace. I still think she'd make a fun companion for the Evil lineup too.

She'd basically be the Viconia/Shar-Teel of BG3. The one who we pick up at the end of the first major arc, a bit further afield, before the game scales up in challenge for the second major section like it did in BG1 vs the Bandits in the Woods or the Basilisks zone etc. That'd be a nice touch. Also with a hit to our reputation for allowing such an obvious villain into our group. Her and Kagha would be my top picks, as being the most Evil characters we've actually seen so far. Certainly more Evil than any of the 5 Origins.

Well ok Lae'zel is maybe pretty Evil deep down, but otherwise the badguy gang is pretty tame. One can hope Minthara would be a nice fit, so we can have a cutthroat Cleric who Lae'zel actually respects, as a counterpoint to Shadowheart hehe.

Also we lose Wyll if we complete the Goblin path, so it feels like going that way should give us access to an alternative companion as a boon. Minthara is already at the celebration and clearly game to party. Basically an Edwin or Dynaheir type situation, but BG3. If Minthara goes down maybe we get Sazza instead? So there is someone to pick up the slack. I'd like a similar thing for a nature healer in the choice between Halsin or Kagha. Instead of doing the part lock thing if it was handled like that it would feel more sensible with opposing party members. Not like everyone all gone at once at the same time. Instead makes more sense with factions building incrementally and with consequences from the actual gameplay. We don't need mercs really if they just allow some of the NPCs we've seen and come to enjoy, to become our extra companion for the long haul. Have it develop naturally from the story beats and our campaign choices, rather than randomly shoehorned in, just so it makes more sense that we get one option rather than another.
OMG. You guys are crazy. Leather + 1 is what you're happy with for a boss in EA? Really? Again, I like the look, but there is literally no reward for beating her here when her armor is more lame than all the armor you can already get in EA.

It makes no sense to me. Cleric with Leather + 1 is just... It's just wrong. How is it even remotely acceptable? Plain studded leather is 12 AC. It's lame.

I'm not saying that they should give her like Plate +3 or something ridiculous. I'm just saying he armor should have a stat value that makes sense, like Scale +2, you know, slightly better than what the PC can acquire from the store? Or maybe she should have Breastplate +1 so her AC makes sense for a cleric, the armor doesn't hinder stealth, and it's at least something better than what you can get at the store.

They can keep the look, but why Leather? It doesn't even look like leather.

In BG2, Drow armor is way better than normal armor. So, when I acquired Drow armor for the first time in this game, I thought I was going to get something awesome. Leather + 1 is not awesome. My grandma could take down someone in this Drow Leather.

No. It's unacceptable stat-wise. No cleric, especially a Drow, would be caught dead in such lame armor. Clerics are supposed to be tanks. Therefore, Minthara should be a tank. She should be hard to kill, and her armor should be some sort of cool reward. Either Leather + 3 to be at least AC 14 + Dex or Scale + 2 or Breastplate + 2 or Plate + 1 or something at least slightly better than what you can get from the vendor.

Why do you NOT want Minthara to be truly great?
That's not what I said at all. I basically repeated your exact request to have the enchantment be upped to Leather +3 and went even further to suggest Studded Leather +3 with an added skill bonus just like the Armor in Baldur's Gate 1 and then you said I'm crazy? lol

Are you arguing just for the sake of being argumentative? I'm on your same forensics team dude, trying to support the position you just offered in the preceding post.

I am happy with the look and said that they could change the enchantment or her stats more easily without giving up the aesthetic appeal we just gained, then requested she be a made a companion as well.

Why can't we fixate on that part now instead?

If they change the look of her gear yet again and it ends up looking weaker than this aesthetically I'll be irritated. Her current look is pretty cool. That is actually what badass leather armor should look like. Historically leather armor was not pliant and flexible. It is not tanned to make it ultimately soft but rather to make it durable, then 'boiled' moulded and hardened with minerals and resins, and ideally reinforced further with metal ribbing which this suite appears to have.

Actual Leather armor was rigid. Hence the desire for a qualifier to stress that point further for people who might not know that real medieval Leather Armor looked a lot more like banded or plate armor than some form-fitting modern pleather catsuit of the sort we usually get in these games hehe. They did well there for the visual design. It actually does look like leather armor, just not the visually inaccurate sort we're used to seeing from less informed artists. The regular Leather Armor from the shop (or in the char menu if you choose a rogue) is what doesn't look like true leather armor. That stuff is a wildly anachronistic and would be pretty useless in combat for all but the most minimal protection against heat transference or minor abrasions, whereas this suite actually does look like true leather armor! So that's a plus at least. I think she looks killer compared to patch 5. I want her to come along for the ride now again!

I'd like to have a reason for Minthara to get excited when she gets her hands on some rad Drow plate in black a bit later, after she's joined my group. Then stick her Drow 'leather' +3 on my evil PC or someone else who can make better use of it at that point. There should be some room for her to progress after being picked up.

These boards are absolutely exhausting. We can't even agree with each other without catching an elbow from the lecturn? lol

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
Originally Posted by GM4Him
there is literally no reward for beating her
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Xyanyde > Best 1h Mace ...
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Amulet+of+Misty+Step > One of best Amulets ...
+ Absolutely best looking armor and shield so far ..

Indeed no reward at all. laugh

[Linked Image from memegenerator.net]
Give her a Half-Plate. The whole fight is already trivially easy as it is. It doesn't feel like a mini-boss at all.
Do you mean take the above and just "call it" Half-Plate with Half-Plate stats? Cause I have no issue with that at all.

I will be so so disappointed though, if she looses her new Patch 6 Outfit look, and has it replaced with something boring like what Aradin appears to be wearing, just so we can call it breastplate +1 or whatever. Seriously, please don't take this visual away from me! lol

It took us 18 pages to get back to something I find palatable after suffering in Patch 5 for what felt like as many months. Please just don't change the look again. I'm not even nitpicking pauldrons on this one, cause I'm so thoroughly relieved that she at least looks Drow and somewhat menacing again. Don't take away what can be altered easily with a different labelling or enchantment or a stats change. Call it Half-Plate or Super Leather +3, whatever you need to make her AC work well. This thread was started to discuss her Aesthetics and Visual appearance because of what happened in Patch 5, not so much her stats or to debate whether she is tough enough in combat. Obviously I think she should be as hard as possible and a badass in combat. Just don't change the visual look again, push the numbers instead.

Let the player take her to the salon if they wish, but for the Absolute's sake - step back, away from the painting canvas now! She looks nearly perfect. Retain this visual design

Video spoiler
I would imagine Drow know how to make Medium and Heavy Armor as well for their Clerics and Fighters. I would at least expect to encounter more of them since we are in the Underdark.
Sorry Black_Elk. I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were okay with the AC 12.

I'm totally fine with the armor appearance, like you are. Just give it better stats. I don't care what they call it. I'm just saying AC 12 is utterly lame. And yes, the amulet, shield and mace aren't all that. They're okay, mind you. I have no issue with them, but the armor just doesn't fit from a stat perspective. Again, no cleric would be dressed in light armor unless that armor gave them some good bonuses like AC 15 + Dex + no disadvantage for stealth. AC 12 + Dex + no disadvantage for stealth is no better than a Rogue's lame Leather + 1. A ROGUE, which she is not.

In BG 2, Drow armor rocked. It was like the best armor in the game. Sun sensitive and lost a good chunk of AC when you left the Underdark, but even then it was not weak Leather. They gave you Plate. In the Underdark, it was like Plate + 4. I'm NOT suggesting Plate + 4, but something slightly better than the vendor sells. That's it.
Sorry too, I think I just had a pure panic attack thinking Larian might torture me again in patch 7 lol. Cause like if it can get as bad as orange ring mail and the pixie with silver eyes, my trust was shattered. Now I'm it's like wow, I'm so happy they listened to the strong strong reaction against Minthara being some lame peon with lame gear.

I think they should push her Dex through the roof and keep her strength right where it is, so she can wreck either way. With some black Full Plate or ass kicker light armor, that can be used for more flex. Just give her 15s in everything but intelligence, and keep that Wisdom high. I don't wan't another Viconia who can't carry her own armor, that's why I said Viconia/Shar-Teel.

This is BG3! She needs to come correct, Absolutely! hehe

But I am very very happy with the course correct on the visuals. It makes me feel sad for anyone who bought into the EA during the last few months, and only saw patch 5 Minthara, thinking she was just ridiculous. Way easier to juice the numbers at this point, let's close the door on her default looks for sure!

We can definitely talk now about what Full Plate Drow armor should look like though! And also how she should be a companion hehehe

I really do hope they consider making her a Non-Origin companion that can be recruited into the fold. She's the best we got right now for a Villain on the team in EA.
There has to be some internal rule at Larian to not let anyone have any good armor in early access. It must be a known thing. Like a memo that went out to everyone.
Probably hehe

The one line in the patch note reads at follows...

"Gave Minthara proper Drow armour - changed from ringmail to leather."

So it's possible they just subbed in whatever regular Drow leather armor is supposed to look like (the sort we'll be eventually looting on the regular), so that she wouldn't continue to look so awful in the interim?

Her initial stats were:

Strength: 15
Dexterity: 12
Constitution: 15
Intelligence: 12
Wisdom: 18
Charisma: 16

But how about something more like...?

Strength: 15
Dexterity: 16
Constitution: 15
Intelligence: 10
Wisdom: 18
Charisma: 15

As a companion that would be pretty impressive, she'd be able to hold her own for sure. As an opponent at least she'd be hammering harder, whatever her chosen equipment loadout. Then she'd have a lot of options, and some serious multiclassing potential on offer eventually, depending on which attributes the player chooses to boost for her. She could take a Class in basically anything other than Wizard, and still hold her own on the front line. Again more like a Shar-Teel. She could take a few levels in something else, and be a more flexible companion that way. Or just an ass kicking all around Tank Cleric with a truly Evil core spread lol.

That just feels like something a desirable Evil BG companion would have in their stats. The reward for being such a heartless villain in our Evil playthrough, is that we get an objectively stronger Cleric than Shadowheart along for the ride. A bloodthristy cleric with an inside track on the Absolute plot line, so she can serve as a narrative vehicle there. A cleric who Lae'zel doesn't hate with a passion.

People have asked for some reward along the Evil path, a true reward, and Minthara as such a strong companion with good Stats could be exactly such a reward!

A bit better than a PC could achieve with the point buy, but not so ridiculous that she overshadows them entirely. Just enough STR and DEX to be hard. Enough Con to be beefy. Very high in her Prime Attribute WIS at 18 so she is an ideal Cleric, and still pretty damn high in CHA to boot, matching her role as a Priestess of the Absolute.
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Do you mean take the above and just "call it" Half-Plate with Half-Plate stats? Cause I have no issue with that at all.
Agreed ... dont buff her armor, buff her!
If we need a narrative justification to explain a stat spread which is higher than the PC can achieve via point buy, we can just say that it was the Absolute who granted her those extra Attribute bonuses with the crazy high Charisma etc.

Perhaps if she ever strayed from the path of the Chosen, she knows she'd take a hit on all her Attributes in divine retribution lol. Basically the Absolute granted her a +2 ability score increase to everything, and a +5 in CHA so she'd be persuasive enough to carry the gospel of the Absolute effectively across the Realms.

The narrative conceit is that she went from something like...

STR: 13
DEX: 14
CON: 13
INT: 8
WIS: 16
CHA: 10

Which is more like an achievable Stat spread, that the player might recognize from their own Character creation process. But she's got the Absolute's boost to that all around, so...

Strength: 15
Dexterity: 16
Constitution: 15
Intelligence: 10
Wisdom: 18
Charisma: 15

This explains how she become such a potentate. If she didn't keep the Absolute happy she'd get knocked off her hight perch down to a more normal Stat spread. But staying True, she's basically a murder machine!

I like that kind of idea. I think it works best.
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Her initial stats were:

Strength: 15
Dexterity: 12
Constitution: 15
Intelligence: 12
Wisdom: 18
Charisma: 16

But how about something more like...?

Strength: 15
Dexterity: 16
Constitution: 15
Intelligence: 10
Wisdom: 18
Charisma: 15

.

Just give her a very high (18-20) dex, like drows have in general. Studded leather + 20 dex is the same as half plate + 14dex so it's not so bad. If you factor in the shield, she would have 19AC, or 18 if she has only 18-19 dex. And that is if nothing is magical.
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Do you mean take the above and just "call it" Half-Plate with Half-Plate stats? Cause I have no issue with that at all.
Agreed ... dont buff her armor, buff her!

Ugh! But why? Why are you SO against Minthara having APPROPRIATE armor for a CLERIC? And why boost her stats to something ridiculous, especially if she might be a companion? You can't do that. She'll be too OP.

For pity's sake, I'm not asking for her to have some ridiculous Plate + 4 armor that gives her AC 22 or something all by itself. I'm just asking that they make her not a weak piece of trash. Normal stats for whatever level your characters should be when you face her (so maybe Level 4) and slightly better armor than what you can have, like Half Plate + 1 or + 2, you know, an AC of 16 + Dex, so total AC of like 18, like Lae'zel, at least. With shield, AC of 20, again like Lae'zel. People! That's not too tough for Level 4 characters, and it's totally appropriate for a boss at this stage in the game.

Plus! It gives you better armor if you beat her. Not grossly awesome armor, mind you. Just something better than trash Leather + 1
Something along those lines would work well too. Or if one wanted a more ultra Dex based mode just enchant the hell out of the leather. I have no prob with a Stat boost to make that work. I just don't want her all squishy and looking goofy.

Also the rationale provided on the previous page for those numbers was more for versatility, instead of building her stats around her equipment, just giving her something potent that works in a lot of different ways. Just so she doesn't have to be all set in stone from the outset. Companions that can be built out to serve more what the PC is interested in are always popular. If she's Lvl 4 or higher at the time of recruitment, maybe the player can choose which extra Attribute stat to juice as a bonus from the Absolute? That would be another cool touch.

The nice thing about this NPC companion is that the same kinds of justifications about the Absolute granting a boon to her Attributes (beyond what the PC could achieve via point buy) works for whatever spread we need. It's consistent with her narrative.

This is the sort of thing the DM can do, giving us a companion who's a bit ahead of the curve. You wouldn't hear me complaining if they gave her Plate Armor at all. Provided it's Drow looking and cool aesthetically. She should be a wrecker!

And again the point about using Her as the reward for the Villainous path. Not necessarily just her gear, but Her, as a companion hehe. Team Evil needs something. Many people have griped about how there is no payoff really for the Goblin path. The Minthara companion would be the payoff! I'd dig that so much. Plus her makeup looks great once again, finally! lol

I'd love for Minthara to come along for the ride. I was pretty disappointed with our selection of Origins companions if trying to build out a villainous crew. Sure there are plenty of people to "use" as a means to our ends. But I'm talking reliable villainy. Shadowheart is set off Lae'zel in a way that's entertaining, but also starts to wear thin the further along it goes. She works as a dissembling type Cleric of Shar, but she's not really a cutthroat, and probably not even a villain in the end. Gale and Wyll aren't really villains at all, or at least they don't come off that way in terms of their approval and such. They keep pushing the PC to do good. Astarion doesn't seem to care much about what's happening as long as it doesn't impact him, so it's basically Astarion and Lae'zel, and then we're missing our dedicated bloodthirsty caster.

We lose Wyll if playing the Goblin path, so I'd like Minthara to take his place.

The game would play so much better if we could recruit some of these NPCs into the Party. It would be such a breath of fresh air compared to the fab 5 over and over and over in each playthrough. The set up is perfect. They've already done the work. She doesn't need a whole insane gang of new cutscenes, because she's already had them. She just needs a bark set. Though honestly I'd love a few more interludes along the way. As we get closer to figuring out what the Absolute is, she can be the character who provides additional insights with a running commentary there.

It's Jenifer Hale too!
Like Legendary!!!

Of course I want her in my party! lol

Screw Minsc or whatever other Origin companion they want to drop in on us just randomly waiting by side of the road, with no set up from the story. Minthara has so much build up already, and her own fan club. I think it would be a huge miss not to include Minthara as an option to recruit. My two other favs for a villainous team are Sazza and Kagha, depending on what the player is trying to achieve with their party and which path they pursue along the way. Not every companion needs to be an Origin character. They should flesh it out with more options, or this game will bore me to tears by the time of the full release.
Minthara is like Boba Fett. No one expected Boba Fett to be a favorite, but he was.

They have to make her awesome with sweet gear, or she'll just fall flat and us super fans of hers will strongly and not so secretly hate them for it.
Haha exactly!!!

Like such a perfect comparison!

I think the best thing they could do would be to lean into. Act 1 serves as a near perfect recruiting ground test case. We've all played it to death, and there are strong calls coming from all quarters about which NPCs players would love to have tagging along.

To me this would be more engaging than a Merc system (though that would still be nice for Custom companions that have no real story in, beyond the players imagination.) The Origins are fine, I will come around completely for that concept of one of the Fab 5 as an MC, for players who are new and just trying to get a feel, or if they have some special attachment or simply want to see how that plays. But the real trick is to allow NPC recruitment into the party.

Seriously, everyone at this point should all be viable. Why not? Just try it. They should each have motivations and a personal price to be paid (not necessarily in coin, but maybe that too.) To persuade them to tag along. Any named character we've seen in EA. How hard would it be? Gather the metrics, who was chosen, what happened then? So many possibilities. Practically infinite.

It would be so much fun. Just convince someone to join and try them. If they die no biggie, try to recruit someone else. Unless they're really specifically not a possible potential adventurer, like the kids or merchants say, but just about everyone else.Not just for the villains but everyone. Want to try the game with some B team Druid from the grove roll for Persuasion or whatever, and try to persuade them it's their duty to drop everything and join this quest right now!!! And then they hop on the team.

Such a blast, Million dollar concept for you right there lol. Watch your whole player base cry out in pure joy, as Larian tried to do something super cool that really has never been done yet. And it would be goofy and comedic on so many levels at the same time. An absolute perfect fit for the game in its current EA states.

How many Barks does a temp companion truly need? 1? Maybe some generic sounds based on gender, like grunts or Curb your enthusiasms. They could do!
They totally could.
Oh Oh and picture this!

When the player recruits an NPC into the party, they get that text exchange like "What will it take for you to join this most important of Quests!" And the NPC gives you the goal. Larian can use this vehicle to suggest to the player stuff that might be tried, or that they want to show off in EA. Every NPC with their unique price/quest to recruit, clues the player in.

Once completed, the NPC joins the group, but when that happens, let us (the EA player) respec the Character. As if in the Char Creator for attributes and abilities, class background etc. This would be the data gold mine.

It would tell Larian, who is being chosen, who people like, what impression they had of that character such that they felt X, Y, Z should be their stat spread and features. Then use information gathered to inform future builds. Their Stats and abilities as Hostile Enemies or for looting could be whatever is needed for tactical intrigue and overall game balance in the actual campaign as NPCs, but once recruited into the Party/Camp they become like normal PCs that we can build out ourselves and respec according to sensible PC parameters, within a mini char creation display to tweak their attributes or class or whatever makes sense.

No further VO lines are even really required for the NPCs that already exist with cutscenes. They could start doing it right now, or as soon as they get the char creation prompt and recruitment quests tied in. Create a VO bark from something they've already recorded. Or add a few generic lines that fit with getting hit or healed or whatever. Do it in simple text for story-ish quest material would be easy. Let them play like PCs.

The systems are in place, the characters are already there. All that's needed is a key to the char screen door, and there would be every reason to explore the EA again with different people. You want Abdirak? I'm sure he's got a score to settle somewhere, or a pain he wants to know. Some rando goblin in it for the gold or the fear. Some Tiefling you thought looked cool. Maybe one druid want's another humiliated. Etc. You click the NPC and after the "cinematic" one liner, you get that extra check reveal called "Recruitment." Basically anyone not hostile or who could conceivably be recruited.

They become like EA Action Figures that way!

How fun would that be? I mean just to see who people chose and what they built out of them. That would be so rad!

I'd pick Minthara up for sure!
Mint condition!

Collect em all! lol

Basically any of these, the NPCs who have some kind of cutscene already:
Action Figure Companion NPCs: EA Wave 1

Here are my top picks for a first wave! But maybe yours are different right? So lets let everyone choose from everyone! heheh

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Ps. This would answer the Origins dilemma, the idea that the game does not have enough companions, and the fear of act 1 party locks. Instead what happens is that EA Act 1 is the player's opportunity to recruit all these peeps to respec. It would work brilliantly with a split XP option, because with an EA lvl cap in place, the Player could still recruit and build out NPC companions to continue progressing in some way. Say later NPCs in Act 2 which is the Full Release, any old NPC could not be respec'd in the same way, but the ones in Act 1 EA could, if we can keep them alive long enough to make it through the playthrough. It would probably become my favorite game overnight if they did that. Keep us busy all through Christmas. Especially if they could make some updates to UI or party movement around the same time. Add in the little text convo lines to recruit with the price/quest, and the tools we'd need are there already from the existing Char creator. Sure none of those NPCs would be as fully reactive as the 5 origins, but that's ok.

The idea is just to make a fun and engaging presentation that indulges that Boba Fett concept. Like they can learn who is everyone's favorite action figure. Especially maybe even adding a custom bio option, where the player can type what they thought the NPC's deal might be, or give an "after-action" biography of what actually happened on this playthrough with this NPC at the close of Act 1 lol. Little touches like that to personalize it. That would make the EA a really worthwhile and enduring experience. Let us keep like 4-8 at camp at once. Throw a salon in there for the hair and the makeup etc, and I would say they did it up right! Least it would be a fun idea for continued EA engagement.

Then we get Minthara, but also so much more! Something to do!!!
Lol. Funny thing is, I thought of the same thing. Every character literally has stats, so why not make everyone recruitable? Want Alfira? Help her with her song. Want Nadira the telescope tiefling, save her from the bugbear. Want Kagha? Spare her and offer to give her a new purpose if she's booted from her position.

I personally would want Minthara for either good or evil playthrough, but definitely evil. And I like Karlach too and Halsin.
I mean right! hehe I bet everyone one of us has had the same thought, or secret wish to swoop whoever into the fold. I think the cool part is that half the characters people like most are the one who already have a little quest set up to their presentation, so they'd be the ones to work on first. Just do em in waves of 4 or 8, while the material is built out. Trying to give a little love to all the paths, a couple villains and a couple heroes, and a couple goofs like Aradin lol. It would be hella entertaining. I can't see how anyone would balk, cause they really wouldn't be eclipsing the Origins, but it would give them another lease on life. Like they don't just disappear into nowhere. If one goes through the effort of saving Karlach or Sazza and doing all the little things, they should get to have them tag along into the Underdark to fool around and make the EA more entertaining.

Instead of saying "see you in Menzo, I'm out!" Minthara would say something more like "You've proven yourself worthy! Now I, by the grace of the Absolute, will follow you into the depths!"

So the player is stoked and feels like, "yeah! now lets press on and keep playing the EA for a few more hours, cause I want to see her hit lvl 4 or 5!'' if they ever include lvl 5 hehe. And we'd have all the class and background combinations to really make our parties feel unique each time, while still bringing a fav origin probably too for story. It'd be awesome in camp to see the NPC companion corner where they just hang out showing off, not talking much but looking cool. Such good times. They should do it at X mas, people would flip I bet lol

Lets gather in strength off the success of Minthara's greatness and extend the idea to the entire troop of NPC possibilities haha

Here I added 2 more to the pic... Just for the Nadira and Karlach fans! (Now Karlach I guess is like a gray Boba Fett in this example, with the cut horn preview lol) but you get the idea! Obviously we'd need a Dwarf and a Halfling and a Gnome too. We've got em already! Just let us recruit the ones we vibe on from the available NPCs! Perfect fit

We can call it the BG3 Early Bird Special!!!

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Get everyone excited for the Holidays! Not just the Minthara fans, but the whole gang. Feel free to add to the pic with your favs! It would be a lot of fun and seems like maybe not even that complicated to implement? Most of the systems and content is already in place right. Only needs the will to make it an EA reality! hehe

Ok now I have to take this idea to the General section, so as not to overburden this thread.

FOR THE ABSOLUTE!
So, just to be clear, you can't get Minthara as a companion? Sniff. Even in Patch 6? Sniff. I was really hoping. Got my evil Drow sorcerer working towards that. No way at all, huh? Sniff. We tried everything?
Yeah either that ...
Or give her +3AC buff named "favor of the Absolute"

//Edit:
I mean statbuff is cool but as far as i know Dexterity is often used for spell saving throw ...
So that would cause yet another inballance.

//Edit 2:
And ot would even make sence from story perspective that she would lost it in the future as our companion ...
Since Absolute wanted our death ... and she failed to deliver. 😋
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Minthara is like Boba Fett. No one expected Boba Fett to be a favorite, but he was.

They have to make her awesome with sweet gear, or she'll just fall flat and us super fans of hers will strongly and not so secretly hate them for it.
[Linked Image from d.radikal.ru]
Minthara is incredible now in appearance. 15 Ac total with shield? Yeah, no. Not good. But she looks absolutely superb now.

I must have her in my evil party. PLEASE
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Minthara is incredible now in appearance. 15 Ac total with shield? Yeah, no. Not good. But she looks absolutely superb now.

I must have her in my evil party. PLEASE

I agree. She looks great. The armor looks perfect. (And that voice acting is amazing, bravo, seriously.)

But the armor stats need improvement.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 23/10/21 05:49 AM
I took a bunch of pics of her. This one has to be my favorite:

[img]https://blogger.googleusercontent.c...-MLyqdH7ufCuSOVFhC3WuYmWqEZ-bIBcTQ=s1920[/img]
Posted By: Tara Grimface Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/10/21 03:33 AM
The new appearance looks great thank you Larian.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/10/21 04:12 AM
The 15 AC is killing me, though. To truly make her great, she needs that armor to keep its appearance but become Drow Leather of the Absolute, offering AC 15+ Dex. Then add Shield + 1 to that to boost AC to 18 + Dex. With her Dex being +3, I believe, that puts her at 21 AC. Ah! Now we're talking a true tank. Gonna require some Bless and Magic Missile and some +1 weaponry to kill her, and maybe some spells that weaken her, and some nasty tricks like Alchemist Fire, and grease and maybe tripping her and such.

But that's how it should be. She will never be truly great if they don't increase her AC.
Posted By: Tara Grimface Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/10/21 04:47 AM
I wonder; It seems like they listened to us!? that's kind of amazing!; not many companies do that; I can't help but think that our critique had a bearing on Minthara's new patch 6 appearance; maybe not?; It's just sort of amazing that every issue that we've raised in the forums about color contrast, hair, eyebrows, facial expressions, and armor has been fixed and Minthara looks better than ever; maybe I'm too easily impressed but I feel really satisfied now; all that flak we received for scrutinizing the patch 5 appearance was worth it.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/10/21 04:53 AM
I agree. I can put up with the stat being lower. It doesn't make sense, but I get it.

I'd still prefer her to be actually tougher AC, though. Then the armor is awesome and a great reward for good playthrough.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/10/21 07:33 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
The 15 AC is killing me, though. To truly make her great, she needs that armor to keep its appearance but become Drow Leather of the Absolute, offering AC 15+ Dex. Then add Shield + 1 to that to boost AC to 18 + Dex. With her Dex being +3, I believe, that puts her at 21 AC. Ah! Now we're talking a true tank. Gonna require some Bless and Magic Missile and some +1 weaponry to kill her, and maybe some spells that weaken her, and some nasty tricks like Alchemist Fire, and grease and maybe tripping her and such.

But that's how it should be. She will never be truly great if they don't increase her AC.
Now you really pushing it ...
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/10/21 07:40 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I agree. I can put up with the stat being lower. It doesn't make sense, but I get it.

I'd still prefer her to be actually tougher AC, though. Then the armor is awesome and a great reward for good playthrough.

This can be imbalanced considering she has a 90% chance of joining the party in act 2. I think you can get more interesting armor for Minthara during the game, just like that armor from the official art with ShadowHeart
Posted By: JandK Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/10/21 08:33 AM
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
...she has a 90% chance of joining the party in act 2.

Fingers crossed.

(Even if when she does join though, I don't think it would hurt if she had a higher AC. I imagine there'll be better armor all around in Act 2 ... and hopefully some more in Act 1 with future updates!)
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/10/21 11:48 AM
Why is her having higher AC so intimidating to you all? If Tav can have AC 18 with Scale + 1 or Half Plate, and then a shield to boost to 20, same with Lae'zel and Shadowheart, why is it acceptable for a boss bad guy to be 15 WITH shield? She should at least match the PCs in stats since she is 1 person against 4.

And yes, she has minions, but that's how boss fights work. Seriously, do you guys play video games even? This is not just a tabletop thing. At AC 15, she's one of the weakest enemies in EA so far.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/10/21 12:34 PM
Its not intimidating ...
As long as she keep in some bounds, its totally okey.

I mean if Halsin have 17 (dunno, just saying IF) ... if Ragzlin have 17 (i dare to presume his class WILL be Barbarian in the end) ... if Gut have 17 ...
Then, logicaly, Minthara should not have 21. laugh

I mean we all know that you want her to be the most badass of them all, but that allone is quite weak argument. :-/

--------------------------------------

In other words ... yes 15 is too little ... 21 is too much ... 18 is between them, and it sounds reasonable ...
Let minthara have some +3 AC boost, dont change any stats on her loot, she allready gives us awesome items and that is enough ... and everything is fine.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/10/21 01:14 PM
I'm not looking to have her be the biggest, toughest of them all. I'm looking to have her be what she should be according to her class and level. Ragzlin is a hobgoblin Warlord, or barbarian as you say. Either way, he should not be too hard to hit because he is a damage dealing enemy, meaning his purpose is not defense but offense. So I would expect him to hit hard but to be easier to hit. Gut is a magic user, possibly another cleric, but more like a goblin shaman, so I would expect her to be a bit squishier but have more spells. Both of these two seem to be built just fine with these concepts in mind.

But Minthara is a full-blown cleric. Clerics are tanks, meaning they have high defense and lower offense, typically with healing spells and spells that buff allied stats. With her AC being so low she is the antithesis of what a cleric should be, a tank.

So I'm not looking for her to be some really tough damage wielding offensive and defensive Superior boss. She should have high AC and do a lot of buffing her minions. Again, if Tav and several party members can have, by that point, an AC of 20 or more, it isn't unreasonable for a cleric boss to also have an AC of 20 or more. Again, I'm just looking for her to be a match to the players, not overpowered. If she has a base AC of 15 due to her armor, that is a basic AC for clerics, not even enhanced AC. If you're equipped with half plate armor like Lae'zel starts with, and you add a shield to that, your character would be at AC 20. Why should Minthara, then, be in some sort of armor that is inferior to your and your companions starting armor? You're starting armor can be, and often is, better than minthara's special drow armor.

Again, they have her suited up as if she is wearing a rogues armor. Not a cleric, but a rogue. I don't think what I'm asking is some super huge deal because I'm just asking for her to wear armor that is appropriate for a drow cleric at level five. Her armor should be no less then 15 or 16 plus dex.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/10/21 01:51 PM
As far as i know, Barbarian is one of most effective tanks in game, IF its played properly. O_o
Their characteristic feature is not "just damage", but also surprising toughness. :P

I dont know about any "shaman" class ... if you do, please send me some link.
Therefore yes, Gut is just another Cleric ... yet her stats dont seem to bother you at all. O_o

Originally Posted by GM4Him
So I'm not looking for her to be some really tough damage wielding offensive and defensive Superior boss.
Nobody does ... why even mention that then? O_o

Originally Posted by GM4Him
You're starting armor can be, and often is, better than minthara's special drow armor.
Is it?
Often? I mean the only examples there are Cleric and Fighter ... those are 2/8 classes. That is hardly "often". laugh

And yes, Minthara's special Drow Armor is better ... its 1AC better than any other non-Drow leather armor you find.
And that should be enough.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Again, they have her suited up as if she is wearing a rogues armor. Not a cleric, but a rogue. I don't think what I'm asking is some super huge deal because I'm just asking for her to wear armor that is appropriate for a drow cleric at level five. Her armor should be no less then 15 or 16 plus dex.
Nobody said that every Cleric in the world have to be most effective Cleric in the world ...
What exactly is stoping her from wearing Drow armor? She is obviously not standing in first lines. laugh

Why cant you satisfy with that she would get some AC boost from other source, that would not give you ridiculously OP armor right from the start?
The answer seem obvious, since you dont care about other cleric in the same quest ... all you actualy wants is better loot, this isnt matter of any "proper equipment for boss" ... that is just covenient excuse, bcs if that would really and i mean REALLY bother you, it would bother you in every case and not just this one.

Same story as we had in Evil Route debate ...
You just keep demanding rewards nothing else matters as it seems ... better armors, better weapons, better everything ... -_-
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/10/21 02:53 PM
Because she's a cleric, Ragnarok. She's not a rogue or a warlock.

Barbarians should have starter AC of 10+Dex+Con because they have Unarmored Defense. So, Ragzlin, I would expect, should have an AC of maybe 14 or 15 (10+Dex of maybe 1+Con of maybe 3 or 4).

Clerics should start with either Leather, Scale Mail or Chain Mail depending on their domain and their Dexterity stat. If you have a high dexterity and focus on stealth as a cleric, then yes. Leather is more appropriate. So, someone like Shadowheart should start with Leather because she is supposed to be a cleric of Shar of the domain of Trickery. Can she wear Scale? Yes, but Scale provides a Disadvantage to stealth rolls.

So, one could argue that Minthara is of the Trickery domain and Leather is therefore appropriate. Leather + 1 then works for her. OK. I can maybe live with that. However, if that is the case then they need to rework her stats. She should have high Dex and low Strength. She should be equipped with a Shortsword or Rapier, for she would be more proficient with a Finesse weapon than a Mace because she could then hit better with a Finesse weapon.

So, if they are going that route, she should have like Dex 16 at least and would thus have AC 12 for her Drow Leather Armor + 3 for Dex + 2 for her shield = 17 AC total. She should also then be using more trickery based spells and attacks, slipping into shadows, using Invoke Duplicity, etc, and again, she should be using a Finesse weapon to hit better with. She'd gain a +3 just for her Dex with a Finesse weapon as opposed to like a +1 for Mace.

You could also argue that maybe she's a strong cleric of the trickery domain and not particularly awesome at stealth and other trickery domain abilities. Okay. Fine. She has higher strength than dex and uses a mace. If you don't have a high Dex, then it is stupid to have Leather armor. If her dex only provides a +1 or +2, then it is best to give her Scale Mail + 1 for a base of 16 AC + 1 or 2 Dex. Then give her a shield and make it harder to hit her.

But regardless, the problem I have is that Minthara is not a starter character. She's an experienced person at Level 5. She should not be given some basic starter equipment. Clerics can wear Medium Armor at the very least. So even if she's of the trickery domain, she can still wear a Breastplate + 1 which would provide a base AC of 15 + Dex (max 2) and it wouldn't hinder stealth. So why not give her a similar armor set as a standard Cleric would have with a +1 to it. If she has 15 AC to start +1 or 2 for Dex, that's AC 16 or 17 and then add her shield to it for a total of 18 or 19 AC, assuming she'd have only a base shield and not a Shield + 1, which wouldn't be a huge deal for a boss to have.

So, again, I ask, why give her a Leather + 1 when she could have a Breastplate + 1 which is better and doesn't hinder stealth? I'm not asking for a huge spike in AC. I'm just saying she should be at least somewhere around what your cleric could and should be in terms of AC by this point in the game.

And for the love of God, do NOT change the appearance. smile
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/10/21 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Barbarians should have starter AC of 10+Dex+Con because they have Unarmored Defense. So, Ragzlin, I would expect, should have an AC of maybe 14 or 15 (10+Dex of maybe 1+Con of maybe 3 or 4).
Depends ...
If Ragzlin is 15Str, 15Dex, 17(+2 Racial)Con, 8Wis, 9(+1 Racial)Int, 8Cha ...

That would make him 10 + 2 + 3 ... 15 ... since he dont have Shield (his loss ... but you see? nobody cares that he is not using "most effective options for his class")
Also when Raging he would have "resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage" ... quite important part. wink

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Shadowheart should start with Leather because she is supposed to be a cleric of Shar of the domain of Trickery. Can she wear Scale? Yes, but Scale provides a Disadvantage to stealth rolls.
Scale indeed does ...
But Breastplate does not while providing same AC ... so i would say that Shadowheart's custom armor does not violate any rule ... maybe except being named wrong. laugh

Also, as i was trying (and failed laugh ) to find Shadowheart's armor ... i find that certainly not all chain armor in BG-3 cause disadvantage on stealth rolls:
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Dark+Justiciar+Mail
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Robust+Chain+Shirt
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Slippery+Chain+Shirt
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Chain+Shirt++1
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Chain+Shirt

Originally Posted by GM4Him
So, one could argue that Minthara is of the Trickery domain and Leather is therefore appropriate. Leather + 1 then works for her. OK. I can maybe live with that. However, if that is the case then they need to rework her stats. She should have high Dex and low Strength. She should be equipped with a Shortsword or Rapier, for she would be more proficient with a Finesse weapon than a Mace because she could then hit better with a Finesse weapon.
I agree ...
That would be much better in every way.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
So, if they are going that route, she should have like Dex 16 at least and would thus have AC 12 for her Drow Leather Armor + 3 for Dex + 2 for her shield = 17 AC total. She should also then be using more trickery based spells and attacks, slipping into shadows, using Invoke Duplicity, etc, and again, she should be using a Finesse weapon to hit better with. She'd gain a +3 just for her Dex with a Finesse weapon as opposed to like a +1 for Mace.
Still ... sounds good to me.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
You could also argue that maybe she's a strong cleric of the trickery domain and not particularly awesome at stealth and other trickery domain abilities. Okay. Fine. She has higher strength than dex and uses a mace. If you don't have a high Dex, then it is stupid to have Leather armor. If her dex only provides a +1 or +2, then it is best to give her Scale Mail + 1 for a base of 16 AC + 1 or 2 Dex. Then give her a shield and make it harder to hit her.
What are you talking about? She have shield. laugh
You adressed the problem corectly here ... she is cleric, but obviously not exactly clever one. :P

Originally Posted by GM4Him
But regardless, the problem I have is that Minthara is not a starter character. She's an experienced person at Level 5. She should not be given some basic starter equipment. Clerics can wear Medium Armor at the very least. So even if she's of the trickery domain, she can still wear a Breastplate + 1
I collored the most important word in this sentence. wink


Originally Posted by GM4Him
total of 18 or 19 AC, assuming she'd have only a base shield and not a Shield + 1, which wouldn't be a huge deal for a boss to have.
If you read the post abowe ... i allready agreed with AC 18 ...
So why are we even keeping this conversation exactly? laugh
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/10/21 04:59 PM
OK. Here is my point in a nutshell:

If you, the player, had a choice for your character. You could either have your character wear Leather + 1 or Breastplate + 1, which would you wear? Leather + 1 provides AC 12 + Dex, so if your character had Dex 16 (+3 bonus), you'd have AC 15. Breastplate + 1 provides you 15 + Dex (max 2 bonus), so you'd have 17 AC. Which would you have your character wear? Neither has any penalties to stealth?

I'd have my character put on the Breastplate + 1 because it provides a higher AC. So why SHOULDN'T they give Minthara at least Breastplate + 1 armor and make her even more of an awesome enemy.

You do know that this is a post labeled "Make Minthara Great" right? Right now, I see her as almost perfect for the game. So let's go that little extra mile and keep the armor's appearance but make it something LIKE Breastplate + 1 with AC 15 + Dex (max 2 or 3) and give her a Dex stat boost like a cleric of the trickery domain should have, and boost that AC to something like 19 or 20, like she should have if she's carrying a shield or shield + 1.

So, to recap, visually, armor remains as is and she remains as is. Beautiful! Wonderful! Now, increase armor AC to 15 and give her a Dexterity of 16 with a +3 bonus. So, let's say that boosts her to AC 17 with a max of 2 for the Dex bonus for her armor. Add to that, now, her shield and make it a Shield + 1 because she's a boss drow who should probably have a better shield, not just better armor and weapon, so she's up to 20 AC. Bam. Good. Perfect. Done.

But, even if you want to just give her a regular shield, AC 19 is not a super difficult AC to hit at this stage in the game. I just think she should, at this point, have a Shield + 1, but maybe that's just me.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/10/21 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
You could either have your character wear Leather + 1 or Breastplate + 1
This is where you made your misstake. laugh
She dont have any Breastplate to wear ... therefore she dont wear any Breastplate. :P

Simple as that. wink
Posted By: JandK Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/10/21 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by GM4Him
You could either have your character wear Leather + 1 or Breastplate + 1
This is where you made your misstake. laugh
She dont have any Breastplate to wear ... therefore she dont wear any Breastplate. :P

Simple as that. wink

I agree with GM4Him, at least in regards to Minthara needing better armor.

1. Her fight should be harder, in my opinion. Now, you might ask, why should her fight be harder than Gut's fight? Because she's a drow and Gut's a goblin. Gut's just not a boss on the same level as Minthara.

2. What's wrong with wanting better loot from the fight? I get the feeling from some of your comments that you think that's a dirty secret motivation. There's a real lack of good armor in the game right now. I'm not the only one who's sick of scale mail. It'd be nice if a tough, cool enemy dropped some great armor. Upgrading gear through loot is a time honored tradition in gaming.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/10/21 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by JandK
I get the feeling from some of your comments that you think that's a dirty secret motivation.
I believe that coment where i said "you only want better reward" betrayed me ... ? laugh

Originally Posted by JandK
There's a real lack of good armor in the game right now. I'm not the only one who's sick of scale mail. It'd be nice if a tough, cool enemy dropped some great armor. Upgrading gear through loot is a time honored tradition in gaming.
You missunderstand me ...
I dont mind if she drops some regular Breastplate as long as she will wear it ...
Hells ... i would be even all in for her wearing Breastplate, while this armor she would have in some chest right next to her table as memento for old times. laugh

I just cant help the feeling that her curent visual is simply too perfect to break it for one stupid armor, wich you will change anyway in few hours top.

Also i was not against her droping different armor, i was against her droping Leather armor that gives 12+3AC+Dex (and im not quite sure right now if there is +1 to Stealth ... but i believe there is) ... wich would practicaly mean that your rogue will get best bear per Act from one of first 3 bosses in game.
And final reason ... siding with Tieflings and killing Goblin leaders allready gives you MUCH MUCH MUCH better reward, than siding with Minthara and slaughtering them ... i dont see any reason to weight those scales even futher. :-/

Therefore im all in for incerasing HER AP ... either by buff, or by alterning her statistic ...
But i dont want this armor to change, since as it is its allready one of 2 best Leather armors you can get (as far as i know at leat) ... so there is really no reaason to push it futher.
Posted By: JandK Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/10/21 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I believe that coment where i said "you only want better reward" betrayed me ... ? laugh

That's the one!

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
You missunderstand me ...
I dont mind if she drops some regular Breastplate as long as she will wear it ...
Hells ... i would be even all in for her wearing Breastplate, while this armor she would have in some chest right next to her table as memento for old times. laugh

I just cant help the feeling that her curent visual is simply too perfect to break it for one stupid armor, wich you will change anyway in few hours top.

Also i was not against her droping different armor, i was against her droping Leather armor that gives 12+3AC+Dex (and im not quite sure right now if there is +1 to Stealth ... but i believe there is) ... wich would practicaly mean that your rogue will get best bear per Act from one of first 3 bosses in game.
And final reason ... siding with Tieflings and killing Goblin leaders allready gives you MUCH MUCH MUCH better reward, than siding with Minthara and slaughtering them ... i dont see any reason to weight those scales even futher. :-/

Therefore im all in for incerasing HER AP ... either by buff, or by alterning her statistic ...
But i dont want this armor to change, since as it is its allready one of 2 best Leather armors you can get (as far as i know at leat) ... so there is really no reaason to push it futher.

I'm okay with it being leather, but I think it should be +2. At this point in the game, the players are likely wearing a +1 suit of leather, so a +2 is a nice upgrade. I would also consider upgrading her shield to a +1. There are some okay looking shields in the game so far, but it would be nice to have one with a bonus to AC.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 25/10/21 07:30 PM
Yeah. I think maybe Ragnarok and I are not understanding each other again. I'm good with Leather + 2 if they give her a Dex boost and trade Strength for it. I don't mind her with a boost in Dex but her stats still need to be balanced like any normal character.

So, I think these should be her stats:

Strength 10
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 14

Her level 4 upgrade took her Wis from 14 to 16.

Then she wears Drow Leather, AC 13 + Dex, so AC 16. With Shield + 1, she'd have AC 19.

Then turn her mace into a Rapier. Same everything else about it, but she uses a rapier instead of a mace because of finesse. Then, in combat, have her using stealth-based moves. If she uses Shield of Faith, AC boost to 21. If she uses Mirror Image, she's even harder to hit.

Perfect.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 26/10/21 10:11 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Then she wears Drow Leather, AC 13 + Dex, so AC 16. With Shield + 1, she'd have AC 19.
Drow leather is 12+Dex ... and she wears regular 2AC shield ... so 17 is the outcome, 19 with shield of faith.
Sounds reasonable to me.

Im not sure about that rapier tho ...
I mean Shadowheart also isnt proficient with litteraly any Finesse weapon, except Daggers. laugh
Also if you concider that she right now is droping best Rogue Armor (12AC, +1Stealth) you can get from EA ... and best caster Neck (free Misty Step) you can get ... and you would also change her weapon to Shortsword, wich would mean yet another weapon perfect for Rogue, since its causing Faerie Fire ... and coolest looking shield ...
I mean, how can you even keep demanding more? laugh

Compared to Spider Queen, that drops only chest armor, that is usefull only if you use Poison spells ...
Compared to Ragzlin, who drops only 1/2H Mace that have interesting utility, but certainly isnt best Weapon you can find ...
Compared to Gut, who drops shield that curses you unless you are branded ... and neck that i personaly never used even tho every game at least single character is wearing it. laugh
Compared to Kagha, who gives you one of most questioned necks in the game (wich is awesome in my honest opinion tho)
Compared to i dunno ... Gnoll leader, who drops very good 1H mace, with really nasty backfire ...

I mean, come on, Minthara is allready givin us thrice as much compared to litteraly anyone else. laugh
Keep your greed in check for somebodys sake. laugh
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 27/10/21 07:57 AM
Two things I noticed just now as I right clicked and Examined Minthara:

1. Yeah, either her stats need a reworking or she needs better armor. I don't care what you say Ragnarok, her armor does not fit her character with those stats. Her Dexterity is 12, meaning she only gets a +1. That Drow Leather Armor does her absolutely no good. She should be equipped with something like a Half Plate + 1, giving her AC of 16 + Dex + Shield + 1, thus giving her an AC of 20. End of story. What does she care about stealth? She's got Dex of +1, so her stealth isn't going to be that great anyway. Why not buff her defense? If she was a player character, that's what I'd do for her, and as a DM, that's the only thing that makes sense with her current stats. Since she's carrying a magic Mace, and her Strength is higher, the rest of her gear set works just fine. And, I might add, that armor in no way looks like leather. She's got pauldrons on her shoulders. Metal pauldrons. That's not leather.

As an alternative, if she is going to keep the Drow Leather, they should then flip her Dex and Strength so she's weaker but more Agile. Then the Drow Leather works. Give her Dex 16 or higher and Strength 10 or 12. As long as the Drow Leather provides a base AC of 13 + Dex and her Dex is 16 or more, the Drow Leather will continue to work. But then Xyandre's Fire needs to be a rapier because that's a Finesse weapon which makes more sense for someone with high Dex to use. She'd get a higher attack bonus with a rapier than with a mace in this alternate version. Anything less than this is unacceptable as a player and/or DM. Giving a Drow Cleric Leather Armor + 1 when she has a Dex of 12 is just not wise character design.

2. Minthara is a Nightwarden? When did this happen? Has she always been a Nightwarden? Is this new? If so, they've just given us a bit more about her character, I think, which I'm not sure totally aligns with her being of House Baenre, but it definitely says she wasn't some slave of a drow house. Does anyone know more about Nightwardens? I'm not familiar with them. This is all I could find online, and I'm not sure it lines up with Forgotten Realms Lore:

The Nightwardens are an Drow organization that serves as the principle military force of Umbravall. Nightwardens consist, primarily of fighters and rogues, as well as clerics and paladins in service of Lolth. One of the Wardens primary duties is the defense of the prison known as Deephold; where many dangerous criminals are kept beneath Umbravall. Currently, the Nightwardens are hunting a large number of convicts that escaped from Deephold alongside the red wyrm, Daggerspine.

Umbravall, also known as The Throne of the Depths, is the primary city of the Drow, as well as being the entirety of their nation. It rumored to be completely unassailable by outside forces; due to the shifting labyrinth of tunnels that is said to be completely impassable by non-drow.

Umbravall, and indeed all of Drow society, is led by the divine Empress Vyalia and a cabal of powerful Grand Clerics.

It is home to the prison Deephold; possibly the highest security prison within Teshol and home to several dangerous convicts dating from present day, all the way back to pre-scalewar. Many of whom escaped alongside the ancient red dragon Daggerspine.

Either way, Nightwarden sounds like more of an elite drow, especially if she was once a drow cleric at a maximum security prison. Dang! Should she only be Level 5? I have to go back to that. Level 5 does not seem high enough.

But then, if they are going for a reset when you get the True Soul tadpole, that could explain why she's a lower level even though she may have been something like a Level 12 to 15 character previously.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 27/10/21 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I don't care what you say Ragnarok, her armor does not fit her character with those stats.
Yeah i can see that ... that would explain why you keep persuating me that her stats are wrong, even tho i allready mutliple times agreed on that they should ben adjusted to fit her better. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
And, I might add, that armor in no way looks like leather.
That is question of design ... it looks just as leather as any other Drow Leather armor.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
She's got pauldrons on her shoulders. Metal pauldrons. That's not leather.
Looks can be deceving. smile
You know who else have "no armor" robe made from metal and leather parts? laugh
[Linked Image from img.game-news24.com]

Originally Posted by GM4Him
As an alternative, if she is going to keep the Drow Leather, they should then flip her Dex and Strength so she's weaker but more Agile.
Since i agreed with this statement like 4 times allready, i dare to skip to the important part:

Originally Posted by GM4Him
But then Xyandre's Fire needs to be a rapier because that's a Finesse weapon which makes more sense for someone with high Dex to use. She'd get a higher attack bonus with a rapier than with a mace in this alternate version. Anything less than this is unacceptable as a player and/or DM.
In that case i demand Rapier proficiency for Shadowheart ... since she is Dexterity Cleric, but sadly isnt proficient with any Finese weapon ...
Using same logic, that should also be unacceptable. :P
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 27/10/21 05:43 PM
Drow are naturally proficient with rapiers.

My point is that I disagree with what you think.

1. She should not have Drow Leather. Period. Her stats currently speak of strength, not dexterity, so not only is the easiest approach to NOT switch her stats around completely, but her character speaks strength and not deception or stealth. She is a strong character, not crafty and sly and sneaky. Everything about her speaks strength, so a Mace is more appropriate for her, and so is top line Medium Armor. A cleric with higher strength and lower dex would not be caught dead in Leather unless they absolutely had to. They'd be wearing Scale or Breastplate or Halfplate. Why? Because her dex maximum is only +1. Meanwhile, her strength is much higher to make her more of a non- finesse wielding individual, making her NOT a rogue-like leather armor wearing individual. Again, if I played her as a player character, I would not be wise to put her in any leather at all. Even basic, non-magical Scale or Half Plate is way better for her stat-build.

2. It would be much easier for Larian to simply call it Drow Half Plate Armor and boost its AC to 15 then to rework all her stats and weapon set. So why go with the whole rebuild Minthara into a rogue-like character just so she can wear Leather + 1 more efficiently when you could simply call it Drow Half Plate with + 1 to normal Half Plate AC and call it a day?

So, again, absolutely do not change the look, but the armor has to go, not a revamp of all her stats and stuff just to make the armor work as Drow Leather.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 27/10/21 06:41 PM
Half-Plate armor that looks litteraly exacly as recollored Leather ...
That is just not good desing. :-/
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 27/10/21 10:24 PM
And now we get to the real root of the issue. You think her new armor looks like leather and you love it so don't get rid of it.

I think her new armor looks like fancy Drow Plate and I love it and don't want to get rid of it but I want them to name it Drow Half Plate because it looks to me like Half Plate.

Let's look at her armor again:

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co][/url][/quote]

Here is Lae'zel's Half Plate:

https://images.app.goo.gl/GyMxB2jEQS2UKoPw6

Here is Leather Armor in BG3:

https://images.app.goo.gl/3NfXsNA45s1Fp7X86

Here's Drow Leather in BG3:

https://images.app.goo.gl/oFepMVgNBR8SHRnL8



To me, her new armor looks way more like Lae'zel's Half Plate than Astarion's Leather.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 28/10/21 07:42 AM
Originally Posted by GM4Him
This is image i would expect from someone who played this game for first few hours ...
From you ... that really seems like purposeful lie ... since i really honestly doubt you never seen both tooltip for this armor you posted (especialy this part: The sun's harsh light has dulled this armour's lustre - and its power.) and what petrified Drow around Spectator were wearing ...

So here is few pictures of ACTUAL Drow Armor:
[Linked Image from staticdelivery.nexusmods.com][Linked Image from i.imgur.com][Linked Image from 64.media.tumblr.com][Linked Image from i.imgur.com][Linked Image from i.redd.it]

As for what Minthara is wearing ...
There is expression in my language: Not all that glitters is gold. wink
In this case you could switch gold for metal. laugh
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 28/10/21 09:46 AM
Ok. I'm done. We'll just agree to disagree. I do not in any way think that Minthara's armor looks like leather, and you are thoroughly convinced it does, so let's just end this little debate here.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 28/10/21 10:03 AM
It not just "looks" like leather. laugh
It obviously IS leather ... just recollored.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 28/10/21 10:04 AM
Ragnarok. Just let it go, please. We do not agree.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 28/10/21 10:09 AM
"We" didnt agree on disagree ... you decided that.
Yet, even tho you decided to "end" this conversation you keep replying that you allready ended it ... and by that you continue in it ...
See its easy, just let it go. :P laugh

Nah, im just messing with you. laugh
Ever heard that "you hang up first" joke? :P
Posted By: Taylan Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 13/12/21 06:10 PM
I also like the original design better, but that's just because it's cute. I haven't yet met this character in-game but from what I gather she's supposed to exude authority. Based on that, the new design is probably a lot more fitting. The old design looks just like Neera from BG2EE except as a Drow.
Posted By: Taylan Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 13/12/21 09:34 PM
Just noticed that they changed it again, now that I met her in-game, looking like this:

Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
I wonder; It seems like they listened to us!? that's kind of amazing!; not many companies do that; I can't help but think that our critique had a bearing on Minthara's new patch 6 appearance; maybe not?; It's just sort of amazing that every issue that we've raised in the forums about color contrast, hair, eyebrows, facial expressions, and armor has been fixed and Minthara looks better than ever; maybe I'm too easily impressed but I feel really satisfied now; all that flak we received for scrutinizing the patch 5 appearance was worth it.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

This is definitely the best of all three options IMO. Looks even more powerful, but the hair style won't trigger the snowflakes who can't stand short hair on women. xD
Posted By: Archaven Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 14/12/21 05:38 PM
if that's what she looks now then that will be really awesome. finally she doesn't need to look manly. definitely loving the new looks but it will be great if there's a video on it. i'm not playing the game till full release though.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 14/12/21 08:33 PM
Just write "MInthara patch 6" on youtube ...

And pick whatever meet your eye. laugh
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=minthara+patch+6
Posted By: Archaven Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 15/12/21 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Just write "MInthara patch 6" on youtube ...

And pick whatever meet your eye. laugh
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=minthara+patch+6

seems like i was deceived by the screenshot laugh. she does looks much better compared to earlier version. happy to see larian made some refinements to hear appearance. i still think her chin and mouth still need some refinements and she'll look perfect.
Posted By: Van'tal Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 05/04/22 02:16 AM
She has too much testosterone for me.

A woman's strength is in her ability to calm and diffuse.

Add a strong sword arm, bow arm, or magic touch...now she understands "aggressive negotiations".

Give her strength of character and the wisdom to be sharp in the moment...followed by the whole "calm and diffuse" thing, well now she is respectable and discerning.


...Lead off with ghetto mouth and an abrasive feminist vibe (with a hint of Mary Sue), then you can go back to Avernus where you came from.

..Just me, but she reeks of hard pass.

P.S. Feminist Vibe: Woman are better in every way, and I don't need you. Be a good boot licker and maybe I can tolerate you. There are many degrees of this of course, this being a caricature. Respect goes two ways.
Posted By: Van'tal Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 05/04/22 02:38 AM
Odd observation:

Tiefling parents are all "Norman Rockwell" and their offspring are thieving criminal masterminds.

Lae'zel still works, even with her full "feminist vibe", cuz she is just being culturally...her.


I still see her as a brat child that is out of her element and needs looking out for.

I don't need anything from her that she is not capable of giving.

More than one of her kind, attitude wise, will interfere with my calm.
Posted By: GM4Him Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 05/04/22 03:13 AM
What does this have to do with Minthara?
Posted By: Niara Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 05/04/22 03:34 AM
I suspect just furthering the stance that they don't care for her, though I might suggest...

Originally Posted by Van'tal
A woman's strength is in her ability to calm and diffuse.

Defining how a person is or is not, or what a person should or should not be, based on their sex, is going to be starting you off on the wrong foot in general, regardless of the point you're otherwise attempting to make.
Posted By: Van'tal Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 06/04/22 04:18 AM
Originally Posted by Niara
I suspect just furthering the stance that they don't care for her, though I might suggest...

Originally Posted by Van'tal
A woman's strength is in her ability to calm and diffuse.

Defining how a person is or is not, or what a person should or should not be, based on their sex, is going to be starting you off on the wrong foot in general, regardless of the point you're otherwise attempting to make.


Its all personal preference, but it would sure be nice to have a female in the game that was actually...um feminine.

This is only valuable feedback only if others share this view, and I am guessing many do. Not many would dare to say what they would prefer because of political correctness. I don't care because I know myself, and that I respect and accept people for who they are, but that doesn't mean I will connect deeply with them.

An epic story usually includes characters that people connect with, but I am really kinda over expecting that. Still, Larian might want to acknowledge that there are still strong woman in the world that embrace both their dreams and there femininity. I have yet to see an emotionally strong female portrayed here. One that doesn't curse and loose their composer under pressure. It is a noticeable void.

Semantics and perspective are a problem in a conversation like this (such as the word femininity). I personally know and work with many woman that I attribute their nature as a positive aspect in their professionalism.
Posted By: Niara Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 06/04/22 02:08 PM
As you say - it's about phrasing. I wasn't calling you down, just noting that you're more likely to get other people's hackles up saying what you did. In particular, there is a substantive and very real difference between saying "A woman's strength is in X" and "I would like there to be a female character whose strength is X". These are two very different statements, and one of them is an excellent and perfectly acceptable thing to say... while the other is, however unintended, an expression of sexism. It's good to be clear in what you mean, that's all.

For what it's worth, I agree - there aren't any likeable female characters in the game currently for me. I find them all quite unpleasant and would not choose any of them as companions. However, in my case, the same is true for all but one of the males, too. I don't really see myself making any kind of emotional connection with any of these options - with only one exception, and that one tentative.

And don't worry - you're very far from alone in that sentiment.
Posted By: geala Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 11/04/22 06:56 AM
Originally Posted by Van'tal
Originally Posted by Niara
I suspect just furthering the stance that they don't care for her, though I might suggest...

Originally Posted by Van'tal
A woman's strength is in her ability to calm and diffuse.

Defining how a person is or is not, or what a person should or should not be, based on their sex, is going to be starting you off on the wrong foot in general, regardless of the point you're otherwise attempting to make.


Its all personal preference, but it would sure be nice to have a female in the game that was actually...um feminine.

This is only valuable feedback only if others share this view, and I am guessing many do. Not many would dare to say what they would prefer because of political correctness. I don't care because I know myself, and that I respect and accept people for who they are, but that doesn't mean I will connect deeply with them.

An epic story usually includes characters that people connect with, but I am really kinda over expecting that. Still, Larian might want to acknowledge that there are still strong woman in the world that embrace both their dreams and there femininity. I have yet to see an emotionally strong female portrayed here. One that doesn't curse and loose their composer under pressure. It is a noticeable void.

Semantics and perspective are a problem in a conversation like this (such as the word femininity). I personally know and work with many woman that I attribute their nature as a positive aspect in their professionalism.

I'm generally a strict adversary of wokeness and gender semantics, however what you possibly do mean with "feminine" seems to me to be a female attitude that is defined by males in a male dominated (and outdated) culture and is imputed to women because it's in the favor of the males. So women are soft and understanding and socialising, but that easily is connected with them as weak, passive and unable to really act/lead. I'm a male and I will stay away from discussing what "feminine" should mean from a female standpoint, but I have some problems with your direction of thought.

I think Minthara is good as a harsh and autoritative person, like Kagha (who I "like", in a certain way, much more than Halsin).

In my case however I don't care that much how Minthara is because till now we always killed her on sight without having the pleasure to communicate, so her gutted body is the only resource to judge from. When I saw this huge thread about her, I first thought she must be an important NPC I still did not meet. Is it worth to talk to her if you play as a so-called "good" character?
Posted By: Niara Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 11/04/22 07:20 AM
Originally Posted by geala
Is it worth to talk to her if you play as a so-called "good" character?

Generally speaking... not really, as the game stands.

If you've killed the other tow leaders and the fortress is hostile when you go to her, it will simply be combat, but if you go to her before turning the fortress hostile, you will have the opportunity for a conversation. It's a very one-sided and condescending conversation, for the most part, and if you give any inkling that you aren't also completely down for slaughtering everyone in the druid grove in an orgy of blood, then she'll end up going hostile along with everyone else in the room, and potentially the rest of the fortress, depending on various other circumstances.

You can mislead her about the location of the grove, but it doesn't do anything other than give you a chance to escape the conversation safely - you can run back and report her plans to the grove, but the result is simply that she's two minutes behind you regardless, and the assault begins.

She doesn't offer you anything that seems like any kind of a life-line or hope for addressing your parasite, even if you're playing the 'evil' route - just zealotry.
Posted By: RagnarokCzD Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 11/04/22 07:31 AM
"Weak" is matter of definition ...
And this old definitions you are talking about were horribly one-dimensional. :-/

As for if it is worth to talk with Minthara ...
Depends on character ... i gues.

If you play this "my friend, who is also Tiefling said that you were mean to him so i came crush your skull without asking single question" kind of character ... then probably no. laugh
If you play this "Drow are evil, Goblins are evil.and the Absolute is evil ... therefore you are thrice as evil and you must be destroyed" kind of character ... then probably no. smile

But if you play this "im aware that people can lie so i would rather be sure before i kill someone" kind of character ... then yes! Certainly. smile
Posted By: geala Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 13/04/22 02:20 PM
If I play as Cleric of Tyr, the answer would be obvious, wouldn't it? If I play as Barbarian (still not decided) I think I would be nevertheless a timid and weak person (and only the rage would allow me to fight) who is afraid of the goblin leaders and wanted to get rid of them with the least chance to see the own entrails on the ground ... so, good or bad aside, KILL all on sight from ambushes. My hardest (or second hardest) fight was when I was attacked by Gutt and her crowd after fighting the goblins at the entrance, at lvl3, I'd like to avoid such situations (as character, not as player). grin
Posted By: OneManArmy Re: Let's make Minthara Great Again - 19/04/22 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by geala
Is it worth to talk to her if you play as a so-called "good" character?

Generally speaking... not really, as the game stands.

If you've killed the other tow leaders and the fortress is hostile when you go to her, it will simply be combat, but if you go to her before turning the fortress hostile, you will have the opportunity for a conversation. It's a very one-sided and condescending conversation, for the most part, and if you give any inkling that you aren't also completely down for slaughtering everyone in the druid grove in an orgy of blood, then she'll end up going hostile along with everyone else in the room, and potentially the rest of the fortress, depending on various other circumstances.

You can mislead her about the location of the grove, but it doesn't do anything other than give you a chance to escape the conversation safely - you can run back and report her plans to the grove, but the result is simply that she's two minutes behind you regardless, and the assault begins.

She doesn't offer you anything that seems like any kind of a life-line or hope for addressing your parasite, even if you're playing the 'evil' route - just zealotry.

I think the statistics of those 25% of players who chose an evil root in early access are not the statistics of players who want to play as an evil maniac or goblin lovers. These are statistics from Minthara fans, most of these players would make any other decision if Minthara said that it had to be done in order to befriend her. Incredible result for a character.

That is, most of the players who chose the root of the Absolute would betray the Absolute if he decided to harm Minthara and she would need help. Only theory

At the same time, passing on the side of Minthara will certainly not be kind and sweet, more moderately evil and selfish (with goblins feeding spiders, dark romantic, personal gain and all that), but this is not the path of absolute evil like Lolth or Absolute. If it was possible to befriend her while being moderately evil without the need for extremes at the very beginning of dating (only optional), that would be cool. This is a challenge to become a true friend and win the trust of a drow who is used to betrayal.

What a moral pleasure there will be when this challenge is achieved! This is more interesting than the dark power of the Absolute, the service of Lolth, or the ideals of goodness and light. All this can be sacrificed for the challenge

Minthara is the female version of Astarion in the party, with its own drow specifics (more evil and domineering) but for the same audience
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