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Definitely not a fan of the idea of letting the player customize everything about companions.
Stuff like ability points or starting specialization should be a defining part of who they are.

I know there will UNDOUBTEDLY be mods that will allow to change even more than that, but still, I wouldn't be in favor of making it part of the standard experience.

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Originally Posted by MrToucan
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe Intelligence influences higher brain functions and the ability to speak at least to some degree?
Fundamentally yes, ofcourse ...

But there is several problems here ...

- For one, there is no deterministic breaking point, that could be seen as "minimal Ability score to speak properly" ...
- For two, any of your characters (basicaly except Wizard) who will dump Intelligence and have score 8 is totally able to create full sentence without litteraly any obstacle ... it would be kinda weird, if your companions would be sudently stupid just bcs their ability score is just as high as yours (asuming you dump your aswell). O_o
- For tree, even tho there are creatures (like those ogres) who speak ... well, the way they do, i dunno how to describe it ... like Tarzan prehaps? laugh We dont quite know if this is bcs common is not their native language and they dont use it well enough, of if their brain (they have Int 7 as far as i know) is simply unable to create anything more sophisticated.
- And last but certainly not least (and that is its own problem) there are beings in this game like Spar ... the squirell that is listening to Alfira ... if you have Speak with Animals active, she litteraly tells you "our brains are melting" ... wich shows both surprisingly well created sentence, and surprisingly deep knowledge of anatomy ... for an animal who have Intelligence 2. :-/

Also, using the same rule for other ability points ...
Take Astarion for example ... with Strength 8 he is are able to drag 48Kg (or up to 80, but encumbered).
While his own body weights 50Kg (acording to his examine tooltip)
That either means that his own muscles are so weak that he is unable to carry his own weight ... or that he is able to carry almost double of his own weight without visible problems.
Since he is totally able to move, and even drag many other things in his inventory ... i would dare to presume that second option is the right one here.

Therefore similar as Str 8 still allows our characters to exists as regular human(oid) being ... move, jump, drag something, etc.
A Int 8 should certainly allow them to act like regular human(oid) being ... speaking, understanding, learning, remembering ... they will simply not reach as great results as character with Intelligence 20 ...

But simmilary as Str 8 does not mean that your character need to spend all his willpower to even make a step ... an Int 8 doesnt mean that your character is mentally retarded. -_-


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
- For one, there is no deterministic breaking point, that could be seen as "minimal Ability score to speak properly" ...
True, that is the case for every stat. Some rulesets have defined ranges, but I believe DnD doesn't. We still have to make these calls. There isn't a definite threshold where your character becomes a clutz if you dump Dexterity, but that doesn't mean a character with 8 Dexterity and a character with 20 don't have differences in how careful/graceful they are. Same for Intelligence. If it influences language skills, there should be differences between high- and low-stat characters.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
- For two, any of your characters (basicaly except Wizard) who will dump Intelligence and have score 8 is totally able to create full sentence without litteraly any obstacle ... it would be kinda weird, if your companions would be sudently stupid just bcs their ability score is just as high as yours (asuming you dump your aswell). O_o
This is more of a matter with implementation and resource allocation than what the stat represents. Resources are not infinite, and rewriting every line of dialogue based on different levels of Intelligence is simply not a realistic goal. That says nothing about the system itself though.
Ideally, speech patterns should change both for you and your companions who have dumped the stat, and I see no problem with this. If you're dumping a stat, you're saying your character is worse than average in some way. If your character is worse than average, it should be reflected with an appropriate penalty/drawback. If you don't want to be penalized, don't dump the stat. It's possible to play without min-maxing.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
- For tree, even tho there are creatures (like those ogres) who speak ... well, the way they do, i dunno how to describe it ... like Tarzan prehaps? laugh We dont quite know if this is bcs common is not their native language and they dont use it well enough, of if their brain (they have Int 7 as far as i know) is simply unable to create anything more sophisticated.
Ogres have Intelligence of 5, and their languages are Common and Giant. Although I don't know if BG3's ogres' ability scores follow the official statblock, there is no reason to believe one of their languages was excluded.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
- And last but certainly not least (and that is its own problem) there are beings in this game like Spar ... the squirell that is listening to Alfira ... if you have Speak with Animals active, she litteraly tells you "our brains are melting" ... wich shows both surprisingly well created sentence, and surprisingly deep knowledge of anatomy ... for an animal who have Intelligence 2. :-/
You are using magic to communicate with animals, that changes things. When a bird chirps at you and you cast Speak with Animals to talk to it, the spell doesn't translate the chirping into Common or vice versa. It's a completely different process, or else you'd be able to use Comprehend Languages to understand animals, which you can't. What the animal says to you when you're under the influence of the spell is not a literal translation of the noises it makes, it's magic supplying you with the closest approximation of whatever the animal is trying to express (what it saw, how it feels, et cetera) in a form most natural to you, speech.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Also, using the same rule for other ability points ...
Take Astarion for example ... with Strength 8 he is are able to drag 48Kg (or up to 80, but encumbered).
While his own body weights 50Kg (acording to his examine tooltip)
That either means that his own muscles are so weak that he is unable to carry his own weight ... or that he is able to carry almost double of his own weight without visible problems.
Since he is totally able to move, and even drag many other things in his inventory ... i would dare to presume that second option is the right one here.
Weighing X kg does not necessarily mean you're able to carry X kg on your back. I know I wouldn't be able to lift my own weight, but I have no trouble moving my body around. A better example would be how Astarion, with his 8 Strength, somehow manages to maintain a full set of abs grin
But yes, I do agree that being able to lug around more than your own weight when you dumped Strength is silly. As I said before, dumping a stat should be penalized accordingly.
None of the carrying capacities are sensible. You can carry multiple sets of armor and a small militia's worth of weapons on you like it's nothing. Where are you putting this stuff? How are you able to fight or stealth in this state? And so on, it's all been said before. Inventory management has been a difficult balancing act for as long as CRPGs existed.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Therefore similar as Str 8 still allows our characters to exists as regular human(oid) being ... move, jump, drag something, etc.
A Int 8 should certainly allow them to act like regular human(oid) being ... speaking, understanding, learning, remembering ... they will simply not reach as great results as character with Intelligence 20 ...

But simmilary as Str 8 does not mean that your character need to spend all his willpower to even make a step ... an Int 8 doesnt mean that your character is mentally retarded. -_-
Agreed, a character with 8 Intelligence shouldn't speak like a troglodyte. Intelligence 5 Ogres are a good reference point for caveman speak in my opinion. But you also said
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
So the character who have 8 Intelligence should certainly be able to speak exactly the same as character who have 20 Intelligence
which I disagree with. Compared to a character with 20 Intelligence, a character with 8 should have a smaller vocabulary at their disposal, or if they have the vocab, they tend to use the more complicated words incorrectly. Or some other quirk, the specifics don't matter that much as long as the dumped ability score is reflected.

Last edited by MrToucan; 18/01/22 01:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by Harudus
To start off with, yes, I got into DnD during the pandemic, and played a fair bit over discord. Haven't played a cleric though, it doesn't fit my aesthetic, but I can still have opinions on character building. So lets get cracking.

1. Wasn't the point that she didn't used to be a dex-based cleric until they revamped her stats, but used the recommended ability spread originally, or did I misunderstand?

My point was that she is dex-based right now, which means that if she attacks with the str-based weapon that she gets as starting gear, she does less damage than if you give her a finesse weapon, but because she doesn't have martial proficiency, if you give her a finesse weapon, she does more damage, but hits less often, as she is denied her proficiency bonus. Unless you give her a dagger, which is only d4, and doesn't really fit with a shield aesthetically. I consider that to be tanking her combat potential.
Your option is to give her a ranged weapon, which isn't part of her starting gear, and thus isn't how she is intended to be played.

Her AC would be trash with a lower dex score, and with the recommended stat spread, she'd have an AC of 13, 15 with a shield, as she'd have a dex modifier of 0, which would be trash for a s&b character. Hence why I assume that them lowering her str and raising her dex was to up her AC, from 13 to 15, giving her 17 with a shield, which is decent, but not great. Compare with if you give her La'zael's half-plate, then she's got 17, 19 with a shield, which is in fact great. This could have been done much easier by either giving her heavy armor proficiency and heavy armor starting equipment, giving her AC 16, 18 with shield, or giving her starting armor with higher AC, like they did for La'zael, half-plate would give her 15, 17 with shield, with the standard stat spread.

Or do you think there was another reason why they switched up dex and str on her character?

2. While I disagree that rule exceptions are necessarily bad, they're named NPCs, pre-built, I have no issues with them having special stuff that other NPCs or the PC doesn't get, they're not necessary to fix Shadowheart.

I just built a trickery cleric on DnDBeyond, and with the recommended stat spread for her class, she'd have 14 AC, 16 with a shield, which is not great, but it's decent, and what the class is based around, because she'd start with scale mail. Of course, they've given her a chain shirt instead, I assume because they want her to be able to sneak without disadvantage. So the trash AC was their own fault for tinkering with her starting gear.

But, Shadowheart is high elf half-elf, and thus has access to Elf weapon training as a racial trait... give her that instead of a cantrip, and a shortsword instead of a mace, and you've fixed her AC, caused by the chain shirt starting gear, by making her dex-based, without tanking her combat ability.

Not to mention clerics can get crossbows as starting equipment, if she had that too, it would not telegraph "melee character" to the player.

She is a trickery cleric with an urchin background... it only makes sense for her to be DEX based. They are practically divine rogues. As for using a STR weapon vs a DEX one... she has a 12 STR and a 14 DEX... that's a 5% difference to hit... that's it. 17 is decent but not great? What D&D campaigns are you playing in? For a T1, medium armor cleric, there's not a thing wrong with a 17 AC. Trickery clerics aren't supposed to be front line tanks.

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Honestly, I just feel like putting it forward that far too many people put far too much value on AC. I mean, really... in one campaign I'm in at the moment, I play a front-line, dangerously aggressive storm sorceress who consistently puts herself front and centre and in harm's way, and her 10AC (10 dex, no mage armour) hasn't really caused her any problems yet, by level 10 and about two thirds of the way through the campaign. I work on the basic assumption that attacks will hit, and I play accordingly - occasionally something low-rolls badly enough that I can shield it, which is a bonus, but otherwise it's no big deal. AC is really not the be-all end-all that many people make it out to be.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Honestly, I just feel like putting it forward that far too many people put far too much value on AC...
Feel free to corect me but it seems to me that core meaning of this topic is to give us option to play it the way we want to.

Sure Shadowheart can be played as divine rogue ... but if i dont want divine rogue in my party ... if i want frontline high AC tank i see little to no reason why i should get used to anything else just bcs "this is not the way this kind of cleric is usualy played".

I bet you would also dislike if your GM would demand you to take 16Dex and demand that you will keep Mage Armor active all the time.
Bcs in his opinion that is the way Sorcerer is supposed to be played and in his eyes you are putting too much value to sustain a hit instead avoiding it.

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 19/01/22 10:05 AM.

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Originally Posted by MrToucan
There isn't a definite threshold where your character becomes a clutz if you dump Dexterity, but that doesn't mean a character with 8 Dexterity and a character with 20 don't have differences in how careful/graceful they are. Same for Intelligence. If it influences language skills, there should be differences between high- and low-stat characters.
Yup i worded that poorly ...
There could be difference (i still dont think it should be forced by rules, it seems better as "advised" but left for people to roleplay the way they want to ... i mean if you know Big Bang Theory, Sheldon is clearly 20Int character ... maybe even more ... and often he is stupidest of them all) ...
I was trying to say that they both should be able of "basic functions".

Simmilar as Dex 8 character dont trip over his own leg with every step, Str 8 character dont have so atrophied muscles so he dont even carry his own weight, as Con 8 doesnt need machines to keep his inner organs working, ... and i dont have any examples for Wis and Cha laugh ... the simmilar Int 8 should not be unable to create full sentence, or use any longer words.
I mean just out of rules, Int 8 character have much less chance of remembering things, or solving puzzles based on this stat ... it allone should be enough. :-/

Originally Posted by MrToucan
This is more of a matter with implementation and resource allocation than what the stat represents. Resources are not infinite, and rewriting every line of dialogue based on different levels of Intelligence is simply not a realistic goal.
Seems like waste to be completely honest ...

Last game i remember that implemented changing dialogue options based on your Intelligence was old Fallout (first one, but you were able to get on Int 1 there) ... and while it was funny at first sight, it quite fast become pure obstacle for player and actualy adds nothing to your experience. :-/

I mean if your dialogue options are "hmmm", "ug ug" and "gyah" ... how would you choose? laugh

Originally Posted by MrToucan
Ideally, speech patterns should change both for you and your companions who have dumped the stat, and I see no problem with this. If you're dumping a stat, you're saying your character is worse than average in some way. If your character is worse than average, it should be reflected with an appropriate penalty/drawback. If you don't want to be penalized, don't dump the stat. It's possible to play without min-maxing.
That is certainly one way to see it ...
In my honest opinion your character is allready penalized enough by the fact that s/he will most likely fail in almost every situation tied to rolling on your dumped stat.

I mean character with Cha 8 is totally able to yell "Fear my blade, foul beast!" on goblin ... just as Cha 20 ...
The only difference is that Cha 20 will seem to that goblin to be so certain about his own power, so he will concider him actual threat ... while Cha 8 will just make him laugh.

Coming back to Intelligence ... i believe Nettie is perfect example here.
While your 20 Int character is able to recognize the plant, and remembered that it is very dangerous for its poison ... your 8 Int character recognize only that Nettie is holding some kind of plant ... hardly surprising, since she is a Druid. smile

If i wanted to be mean, i would say that people who play low-intelligence characters like stupid morons often lack a sense for complex ideas themselves. :-/
Its easy way, sure ... but certainly not the only way. wink

Originally Posted by MrToucan
Ogres have Intelligence of 5, and their languages are Common and Giant. Although I don't know if BG3's ogres' ability scores follow the official statblock, there is no reason to believe one of their languages was excluded.
You are right, i was looking at wrong row. laugh

Still ... we both know that there is difference between "knowing" the language ... and "using it corectly". smile
Sometimes even for native speakers. laugh

Originally Posted by MrToucan
You are using magic to communicate with animals, that changes things. When a bird chirps at you and you cast Speak with Animals to talk to it, the spell doesn't translate the chirping into Common or vice versa. It's a completely different process, or else you'd be able to use Comprehend Languages to understand animals, which you can't. What the animal says to you when you're under the influence of the spell is not a literal translation of the noises it makes, it's magic supplying you with the closest approximation of whatever the animal is trying to express (what it saw, how it feels, et cetera) in a form most natural to you, speech.
True ...
It would still feel better if the Squirrel would complain by saying "head hurt" instead of "our brains are melting" tho. :-/

But im not the only one who complained that in this game animals are suprisingly intelligent and able to build quite complex sentences. :-/

Originally Posted by MrToucan
Weighing X kg does not necessarily mean you're able to carry X kg on your back.
I think you took it completely other way around. laugh

Originally Posted by MrToucan
But yes, I do agree that being able to lug around more than your own weight when you dumped Strength is silly. As I said before, dumping a stat should be penalized accordingly.
That is not exactly what i was trying to say ...

Personaly i believe that "minimum 8" that is included in point buy system, is there exactly to make sure that we will (no matter what) be properly working human(oid) being ... meaning able to carry some extra weight (Str), able to ballance on slippery surface (Dex), will be regulary healthy (Con), able to compele full sentence (Int), will have all or at least most our senses working (Wis), and theoreticaly be able to at least try to represent oureself (Cha) ...
Meaning that if you would like to get under that "basic" level of abilities ... your score (again in my eyes) would need to get under 8.

Raistlin Majere (if you know Dragonlance) is perfect example for some incredibly unlucky person who (despite all rules of probability) rolled 4x 1 on Constitution. xD

Originally Posted by MrToucan
None of the carrying capacities are sensible. You can carry multiple sets of armor and a small militia's worth of weapons on you like it's nothing. Where are you putting this stuff? How are you able to fight or stealth in this state? And so on, it's all been said before. Inventory management has been a difficult balancing act for as long as CRPGs existed.
That is different topic. smile

Originally Posted by MrToucan
Agreed, a character with 8 Intelligence shouldn't speak like a troglodyte. Intelligence 5 Ogres are a good reference point for caveman speak in my opinion.
Im glad we understand each other. smile

Originally Posted by MrToucan
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
So the character who have 8 Intelligence should certainly be able to speak exactly the same as character who have 20 Intelligence
which I disagree with. Compared to a character with 20 Intelligence, a character with 8 should have a smaller vocabulary at their disposal, or if they have the vocab, they tend to use the more complicated words incorrectly. Or some other quirk, the specifics don't matter that much as long as the dumped ability score is reflected.
Yup ...
I indeed worded that poorly. smile


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Ok, WebSpyder, let me just double check that we are on the same page. I am talking about her current stats compared to the "recommended stat spread", which she apparently had before, and her current gear compared to what she should have going by the rules...

i.e. going by the gear she should start with, and the recommended stat spread, she should have +4 to hit with simple weapons, and +2 to damage, and an AC of 16, with scale mail and a shield, and can get a crossbow with +2 to hit, and +0 damage. However, she doesn't get a crossbow, and has been given chain shirt instead of scale mail (probably because a) they didn't want her to have disadvantage on stealth checks, because she is a trickery cleric, and b) martial classes don't start with chainmail like they should, so everyone gets to jump down a notch on the armor). The effect there was that she only had an AC of 13, 15 with a shield. Then the data showed them that Shadowheart kept dying, so they changed her to dex-based. I assume this is to fix the AC, giving her 15, 17 with a shield (and it is decent specifically compared to what she could have using La'zael's half-plate, that the player has access to at game start, not compared to what she would have at start in a normal 5e campaign), but the trade-off was that they dumped her str stat, giving her shitty melee damage, but better ranged damage, but they haven't given her a ranged weapon. Clearly from an rp perspective she should be a melee character, which is awkward if she gets a malus from her shitty strength. They have tried to fix this by dumping her charisma stat and raising her str to 12, whereas they could have fixed this by giving her elf weapon training, so she'd be proficient with short swords...

That is what I am griping about, the design decisions made to try to fix a problem they originally created, not that trickery cleric makes more sense as a dex build, I have no problem with this, I agree that it does, but then they should have given her elf weapon training and a short sword instead of giving her a mediocre strength score to try to compensate. They should be playing to her strengths, not trying to shore up her weaknesses. If we could customize these characters ourselves to a certain degree, as the OP suggests, we could make better decisions still in keeping with the characters rp theme, that aren't bad.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Niara
Honestly, I just feel like putting it forward that far too many people put far too much value on AC...
Feel free to corect me but it seems to me that core meaning of this topic is to give us option to play it the way we want to.

Sure Shadowheart can be played as divine rogue ... but if i dont want divine rogue in my party ... if i want frontline high AC tank i see little to no reason why i should get used to anything else just bcs "this is not the way this kind of cleric is usualy played".

I bet you would also dislike if your GM would demand you to take 16Dex and demand that you will keep Mage Armor active all the time.
Bcs in his opinion that is the way Sorcerer is supposed to be played and in his eyes you are putting too much value to sustain a hit instead avoiding it.

If you want a front line high AC tank then you don't want a trickery cleric. That simply isn't the role that subclass is designed for. You're wanting to do far more than just change stats at that point.

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Originally Posted by Harudus
Ok, WebSpyder, let me just double check that we are on the same page. I am talking about her current stats compared to the "recommended stat spread", which she apparently had before, and her current gear compared to what she should have going by the rules...

i.e. going by the gear she should start with, and the recommended stat spread, she should have +4 to hit with simple weapons, and +2 to damage, and an AC of 16, with scale mail and a shield, and can get a crossbow with +2 to hit, and +0 damage. However, she doesn't get a crossbow, and has been given chain shirt instead of scale mail (probably because a) they didn't want her to have disadvantage on stealth checks, because she is a trickery cleric, and b) martial classes don't start with chainmail like they should, so everyone gets to jump down a notch on the armor). The effect there was that she only had an AC of 13, 15 with a shield. Then the data showed them that Shadowheart kept dying, so they changed her to dex-based. I assume this is to fix the AC, giving her 15, 17 with a shield (and it is decent specifically compared to what she could have using La'zael's half-plate, that the player has access to at game start, not compared to what she would have at start in a normal 5e campaign), but the trade-off was that they dumped her str stat, giving her shitty melee damage, but better ranged damage, but they haven't given her a ranged weapon. Clearly from an rp perspective she should be a melee character, which is awkward if she gets a malus from her shitty strength. They have tried to fix this by dumping her charisma stat and raising her str to 12, whereas they could have fixed this by giving her elf weapon training, so she'd be proficient with short swords...

That is what I am griping about, the design decisions made to try to fix a problem they originally created, not that trickery cleric makes more sense as a dex build, I have no problem with this, I agree that it does, but then they should have given her elf weapon training and a short sword instead of giving her a mediocre strength score to try to compensate. They should be playing to her strengths, not trying to shore up her weaknesses. If we could customize these characters ourselves to a certain degree, as the OP suggests, we could make better decisions still in keeping with the characters rp theme, that aren't bad.

Where are you getting this extra +2 to hit from? There aren't separate to hit and damage bonuses in 5e. With a 14 DEX and a 12 STR she has either +1 to hit and damage with non finesse weapons or +2 to hit and damage with ranged and finesse weapons. 5% difference between the two. That's it. I haven't the first clue where you're getting +4 with simple weapons from. I will add though that I 100% agree she should just have elf weapon training over the silly cantrip. That's just a poor character choice.

Further: From the description in the PHB for Trickery domain clerics -
Originally Posted by "PHB"
They prefer subterfuge, pranks, deception, and theft rather than direct confrontation.
Sure, you can play any way you like but "fronm an RP perspective" no she should not be a melee character.

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Originally Posted by WebSpyder
If you want a front line high AC tank then you don't want a trickery cleric. That simply isn't the role that subclass is designed for. You're wanting to do far more than just change stats at that point.
Seems to me that you are mixing "asigned job" and "optimal role" ... but quite honestly:
I dont care ...

I got Cleric and i want him to do this job ... thats all i need to know.
Is it ineffective? Maybe ...
Will i find out? Maybe ...
Will i change her job afterwards? Also maybe ...
But until then ... if i WANT to send her in front lines with as much AC as possible, i shall. And there is no rule in the world that can stop me. :P

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 19/01/22 09:46 PM.

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Originally Posted by WebSpyder
Where are you getting this extra +2 to hit from? There aren't separate to hit and damage bonuses in 5e. With a 14 DEX and a 12 STR she has either +1 to hit and damage with non finesse weapons or +2 to hit and damage with ranged and finesse weapons. 5% difference between the two. That's it. I haven't the first clue where you're getting +4 with simple weapons from. I will add though that I 100% agree she should just have elf weapon training over the silly cantrip. That's just a poor character choice.

I suspect they are referring to total attack/damage bonus:

With the starting stats of 14Str and 10Dex;

Attacking with a ranged weapon (with which you are proficient) using Dex when you have 10 Dex, at level one (PB of +2), is a +2 to hit, +0 to your rolled damage.
Attacking with a melee weapon using Str when you have 14 Str, at level one (PB of +2), is a +4 to hit, +2 to your rolled damage.

They changed her to having 14Dex and 8Str, but didn't change her starting load-out, so, still no ranged weapon, and no finesse weapon;

Attacking with a ranged weapon (with which you are proficient) using Dex when you have 14 Dex, at level one (PB of +2), is a +4 to hit, +2 to your rolled damage.
Attacking with a melee weapon using Str when you have 8 Str, at level one (PB of +2), is a +1 to hit, -1 to your rolled damage.

They've changed her again now, giving her 14Dex and 12Str, but still haven't changed her starting equipment, so now her start-up is:

Attacking with a ranged weapon (with which you are proficient) using Dex when you have 14 Dex, at level one (PB of +2), is a +4 to hit, +2 to your rolled damage.
Attacking with a melee weapon using Str when you have 12 Str, at level one (PB of +2), is a +3 to hit, +1 to your rolled damage.

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Thank you
Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by WebSpyder
Where are you getting this extra +2 to hit from? There aren't separate to hit and damage bonuses in 5e. With a 14 DEX and a 12 STR she has either +1 to hit and damage with non finesse weapons or +2 to hit and damage with ranged and finesse weapons. 5% difference between the two. That's it. I haven't the first clue where you're getting +4 with simple weapons from. I will add though that I 100% agree she should just have elf weapon training over the silly cantrip. That's just a poor character choice.

I suspect they are referring to total attack/damage bonus:

With the starting stats of 14Str and 10Dex;

Attacking with a ranged weapon (with which you are proficient) using Dex when you have 10 Dex, at level one (PB of +2), is a +2 to hit, +0 to your rolled damage.
Attacking with a melee weapon using Str when you have 14 Str, at level one (PB of +2), is a +4 to hit, +2 to your rolled damage.

They changed her to having 14Dex and 8Str, but didn't change her starting load-out, so, still no ranged weapon, and no finesse weapon;

Attacking with a ranged weapon (with which you are proficient) using Dex when you have 14 Dex, at level one (PB of +2), is a +4 to hit, +2 to your rolled damage.
Attacking with a melee weapon using Str when you have 8 Str, at level one (PB of +2), is a +1 to hit, -1 to your rolled damage.

They've changed her again now, giving her 14Dex and 12Str, but still haven't changed her starting equipment, so now her start-up is:

Attacking with a ranged weapon (with which you are proficient) using Dex when you have 14 Dex, at level one (PB of +2), is a +4 to hit, +2 to your rolled damage.
Attacking with a melee weapon using Str when you have 12 Str, at level one (PB of +2), is a +3 to hit, +1 to your rolled damage.


Precisely. Thank you. You have to take into account proficiency modifier in the to-hit roll. Currently Shadowheart is dex based, but doesn't have proficiency with any finesse melee weapons except daggers. So if you give her a dagger she has 1d20+4 to hit, and 1d4+2 damage. Damage spread of 3-7, average 5. If you give her a str based d6 weapon she has 1d20+3 to hit, and 1d6+1 damage. Damage spread 2-7, average 5 If you give her a shortsword, which is a 1d6 like the simple weapons that she is proficient with, she gets 1d20+2 to hit, and 1d6+2 damage. Damage spread 3-9, average 6. Her damage spread is higher for a d6 finesse weapon, much like a ranged weapon, however, she has a 10% less chance to hit than with a dagger.

If you use her starting equipment, you have less chance to hit than with a dagger, AND your minimum damage is lower. Clearly dagger is better, but they have not given her a dagger. Both minimum and maximum damage is better with a finesse d6 weapon, but it's even lower chance to hit, because she's not proficient. If you give her a rapier, you have the same to hit modifier, +2, but suddenly it is 1d8+2 damage, damage spread 3-10, average 7. Clearly rapiers do the best damage for finesse melee, but that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. But they mean for her to use 1d6 weapons, but have given her stats where they are less effective than a dagger. Give her elf weapon training, so she gets shortsword proficiency.


Damn... I miss my Rogue/fighter shieldmaster multiclass build now... half-plate, shield, shortsword, and shieldmaster feat! <3

Last edited by Harudus; 20/01/22 02:26 PM.
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Ok, I checked and now I can tell you for sure, that current recommended stats array in character creation for Trickery cleric is exactly same as Shadowheart. So they didn't just change her, they gave different clerics different recommended. Life and Light are also not the same there.

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Hard no to this as I'm assuming the companions will all be roleplaying with their given stat spread in mind. . .

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Originally Posted by Zellin
Ok, I checked and now I can tell you for sure, that current recommended stats array in character creation for Trickery cleric is exactly same as Shadowheart. So they didn't just change her, they gave different clerics different recommended. Life and Light are also not the same there.


Fascinating... I wonder who builds their character statlines.

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Originally Posted by Harudus
Fascinating... I wonder who builds their character statlines.
You keep on acting as if her stats are bad. But they are good enough for Trickery cleric.

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Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by Harudus
Fascinating... I wonder who builds their character statlines.
You keep on acting as if her stats are bad. But they are good enough for Trickery cleric.

And they are god-awful on Wyll. No one in their right mind creates a character with that many odd-numbered stats. Yes, it' is clear that they simply took the standard array and applied the human +1s across the board but that doesn't make it any less gimpy. It turns the one advantage that non-variant humans get into a completely inconsequential "bonus".

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Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by Harudus
Fascinating... I wonder who builds their character statlines.
You keep on acting as if her stats are bad. But they are good enough for Trickery cleric.

You'd give a dex-based trickery cleric 12 strength?

Originally Posted by WebSpyder
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by Harudus
Fascinating... I wonder who builds their character statlines.
You keep on acting as if her stats are bad. But they are good enough for Trickery cleric.

And they are god-awful on Wyll. No one in their right mind creates a character with that many odd-numbered stats. Yes, it' is clear that they simply took the standard array and applied the human +1s across the board but that doesn't make it any less gimpy. It turns the one advantage that non-variant humans get into a completely inconsequential "bonus".

Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Harudus
Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by Harudus
Fascinating... I wonder who builds their character statlines.
You keep on acting as if her stats are bad. But they are good enough for Trickery cleric.

You'd give a dex-based trickery cleric 12 strength?
It gives her better jumping distance which is useful for stealth or reaching some values sometimes. So why not? Anyway there are not too many options where you can drop those points while building her. She already has 16 in Wis, she doesn't really need more than 14 in Dex...

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