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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Option to respec would be much appreciated ...
Option to change gender would be probably never even touched by me ... especialy concidering how awful male models lookalike. :-/

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
[quote=OneManArmy]
I would like to have option to retrain my character completely ... just as if i create new one. :-/

The only thing i would keep unchangeable is race, and class ...

Race, gender and class you mean?

I also think that it is necessary to give the opportunity to change everything except this


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That seems like something mods will implement in no time after the game launches. The ability of bringing you back to the character creation menu and then proceed with your adventure. I remember redesigning my character all the time in skyrim just to roleplay as different characters.

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Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Race, gender and class you mean?
No ... i mean race and class ... that is why i said race and class ...
If i mean to say race, gender and class ... i would have say race, gender and class. laugh

Reason is simple, while i would never personaly use it i can imagine people who will start to play character, just to find out that this gender have incredibly hideous model/animation ... and wanted to change that. :P
And while i can imagine someone talking about your character "forget", "dont mention", or simply "miss" your gender (especialy easy for Dwarves) ... i somehow cant quite imagine someone to miss Dragonborn for a Halfling. laugh


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Originally Posted by Argyle
Chromosomal determination of sex is absolute and there is no ambiguity there. Males have the XY pair of genes, and females have XX. Some males may have XYY, rarely, and there are even more rare cases of true hermaphrodites which are the third classification. Natural physical characteristics are derived from the individual's set of chromosomes

Just as absolute as it is ultimately irrelevant when we're talking about entire multicellular organisms. There are XY individuals who are phenotypically female and capable of giving birth, for example (Swyer syndrome and a few others), just as there are XX individuals who are phenotypically male for a variety of reasons, the most obvious being SRY translocation. These individuals would not be called "true hermaphrodites," since they don't have both ovarian and testicular tissue. The actual "true hermaphrodites"* are not their own classification, either; despite having both XX and XY germ cell populations and corresponding oocyte/sperm progenitors, they are not scientifically or medically categorized as a third sex, nor are they capable of reproducing as both males and females. They are, however, "intersex," and this term covers many different disorders, many if not most of which have nothing to do with chromosomal sex.

"Natural" (is this an appeal to nature or just an unfortunate choice of words?) physical characteristics are only derived from a "set of chromosomes" if you're going for a massive and, frankly, incorrect oversimplification. What they are actually derived from is protein activity, which is determined by many different factors (maternal transcript and hormones, exogenous endocrine signaling, and, yes, gene expression of the body itself subject to epigenetic modification, mutation, and epistasis). Even at its most basic level, embryonic masculinzation (i.e. Mullerian structure regression and testicular development) is not guided by the entire Y chromosome but solely by its SRY gene, which is a transcription factor upregulating SOX9; SOX9 is found on the autosomal (non-sex) chromosome 17, and an activating mutation will cause its expression and subsequent masculinization of a fetus without any involvement from SRY. Vice versa for NR0B1, whose overexpression will negate SRY presence in an XY fetus. And this is, of course, just the very tip of the pathway.

You can, of course, say that an XY lactating mother is chromosomally male, but outside of a few specific contexts it is a vastly pointless observation. For nearly all intents and purposes she is female, both socially and biologically and with corresponding medical risks.
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* - the term "hermaphrodite" is typically used only for species where it is a natural reproductive state, and using it to refer to people is only slightly less outdated than calling someone with an intellectual disability "retarded."

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By natural I mean "no medical interventions". Is it is accurate to say Swyer cases are infertile, but can give birth using donor eggs and related medical interventions?

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Originally Posted by Argyle
By natural I mean "no medical interventions". Is it is accurate to say Swyer cases are infertile, but can give birth using donor eggs and related medical interventions?

I know what you mean by "natural" (although, of course, human medicine is just as (un)natural as are foraging instruments made by the New Caledonian crows). I was merely hoping that you don't equate this "natural" with "good" or "real."

Yes, it is accurate to say so. I don't think that it invalidates my argument or supports yours, however, unless you have a very peculiar definition of what is and isn't female. Let's say we're talking about a woman with Swyer who is not receiving any medical help and is thus unable to get pregnant (patient A). Is it your position, then, that her natural physical characteristic of having a uterus is a male sexual characteristic, or perhaps not a sexual characteristic at all?

Let's also talk about an XX man with a particular instance of de la Chapelle syndrome (patient B). He is a normal male phenotypically, except his testes aren't capable of producing live sperm, since he doesn't have the required Y chromosome genes. Is he a male, in your opinion? Let's also consider an XY man who had a partial deletion within his Y chromosome (patient C), so he also doesn't have the exact same genes as patient B, and is likewise unable to produce live sperm. Is patient C a male?

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The ability to change gender is insignificant next to the power of The Force.

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"These are not the genes I was looking for ..."

Correct, I am not linking the term "natural" with any opinion of "good" or "right". I am a believer that all of us are both fortunate and meant to be here, with whatever characteristics and number of days we've been given. Variations in the genetic code seem to be part of a natural and probably very necessary process, and have been happening for quite some time.

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"natural" is a loaded term, when you think about it. A beaver's dam is natural, but a log cabin isn't? How about a brick house? A skyscraper of steel and glass? The latter three structures originate from a naturally occurring organism: homo sapiens.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
Does the Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity not qualify? It might not be golden pantaloons but Its still one of the more memorable magical items for me anyway.

Yeah, changing sex was already possible back in BG1, so it wouldn't even break anything with any lore. Just add the Girdle.


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Originally Posted by TomReneth
Originally Posted by Sozz
Does the Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity not qualify? It might not be golden pantaloons but Its still one of the more memorable magical items for me anyway.

Yeah, changing sex was already possible back in BG1, so it wouldn't even break anything with any lore. Just add the Girdle.

Will a gay character or a lesbian character become heterosexual if they wear this sex change belt?


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Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by TomReneth
Originally Posted by Sozz
Does the Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity not qualify? It might not be golden pantaloons but Its still one of the more memorable magical items for me anyway.

Yeah, changing sex was already possible back in BG1, so it wouldn't even break anything with any lore. Just add the Girdle.

Will a gay character or a lesbian character become heterosexual if they wear this sex change belt?

I don't know exactly what the belt would or wouldn't affect when it comes to sexuality, but I think a CHARNAME Wild Mage in BG2 EE will be treated as their new sex for romance triggers with companions. I don't remember seeing the belt in BG2, so Wild Surge is the only non-cheat to change sex IIRC.

That being said, I don't know if companions change their triggers if you change their sex. But I'd guess not, since the game usually checks against CHARNAME.

Edit: To clarify, I think they would remain attracted to the same people, regardless of their current sex.

Last edited by TomReneth; 30/01/22 07:16 PM.

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Originally Posted by TomReneth
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by TomReneth
Originally Posted by Sozz
Does the Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity not qualify? It might not be golden pantaloons but Its still one of the more memorable magical items for me anyway.

Yeah, changing sex was already possible back in BG1, so it wouldn't even break anything with any lore. Just add the Girdle.

Will a gay character or a lesbian character become heterosexual if they wear this sex change belt?

I don't know exactly what the belt would or wouldn't affect when it comes to sexuality, but I think a CHARNAME Wild Mage in BG2 EE will be treated as their new sex for romance triggers with companions. I don't remember seeing the belt in BG2, so Wild Surge is the only non-cheat to change sex IIRC.

That being said, I don't know if companions change their triggers if you change their sex. But I'd guess not, since the game usually checks against CHARNAME.

Edit: To clarify, I think they would remain attracted to the same people, regardless of their current sex.

+1, considering companions are player-sexual their sexual orientation as far as programming goes wouldn't change one bit. The short answer would be: "it is up to the player."

To elaborate: discussing orientation from a RP perspective, whenever companions would classify as gay, straight or bisexual would be primarily up to each player's fantasy/choice. I mean - since BG3 companions do not have any limited sexual orientation of their own being player-sexual and in some cases have potential other love interests and/or love history, then by default their sexual orientation is not going to be the same for every playthrough regardless of the player changing their gender or not.

To illustrate, in one player's playthrough Wyll and Gale would most likely be heterosexual because Tav is female, and so are Gale and Wyll's historical/potential other interests - however the player could still very much imagine them being bi- or pansexual even though all of their current interests within the game would be female - at the same time, for another character playthrough Wyll and Gale would most definitely be bi-/pansexual because Tav is male, but Gale and Wyll's historical/potential other interests are female.


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Originally Posted by Dez
bi-/pansexual
It feels almost embarasing to open this topic again in different threat concidering how many times it was allready discussed. :-/

But i just cant help the feeling that wheese therms are not sufficient enough ...
Note that uts not just matter of gender, our companions are totally willing to shag litteraly anything and anyone. :-/


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Dez
bi-/pansexual
It feels almost embarasing to open this topic again in different threat concidering how many times it was allready discussed. :-/

But i just cant help the feeling that wheese therms are not sufficient enough ...
Note that uts not just matter of gender, our companions are totally willing to shag litteraly anything and anyone. :-/

I think that's the pan- part. Kelly (?) from Mass Effect 2 had similarly no hard preference for gender or (humanoid) species.

Last edited by TomReneth; 31/01/22 08:16 AM.

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