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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Sigi98
To be immersed in a video game, the game needs to react to your decisions in a way that makes sense, and we know that this is ultimately Larian's goal with the game as they have stated similar things in multiple interviews. However, there are some things in the game right now that feel as if the DM is holding our hand and protecting us from any stupid decision we make.

Example. In a tabletop session, nobody in their right mind would go 'lol I attack the red dragon with my level 4 character' (unless their trolling ofc). It would most certainly lead to a TPK, and the DM may even tell you that this is a stupid idea - but if you end up doing it, the dragon would most certainly attack you (afterall it is a proud and powerful being that just got gravely insulted).
On the other side of the argument is the dragon: why in all nine hells would a literal red dragon decide to flee from such an insult, let alone the proud and arrogant githyanki dragon rider?

If we make a stupid decision in the game, then let us bear the consequences. Afterall, we can just reload if we die, which we could not do in a tabletop session.

Oh yeah, I am 100% behind this. There should be actions, obviously stupid actions, that lead to instant death - TPK.

Like with the dragon, a cutscene plays where the dragon takes off and then incinerates your entire party - No combat starts, you just die. There is precedent for this with Planescape Torment, certain actions lead to no-combat instant death.

That sounds like somekind of "hardcore" or higher difficult lvl to me. You guys dont want the game be too easy, but Im not sure what it has to do with consequences. Player who plays on easy or very difficult lvl, the consequences should be the same. Lots of people like to play game on easy mode.

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Originally Posted by GreatWarrioX
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Oh yeah, I am 100% behind this. There should be actions, obviously stupid actions, that lead to instant death - TPK.

Like with the dragon, a cutscene plays where the dragon takes off and then incinerates your entire party - No combat starts, you just die. There is precedent for this with Planescape Torment, certain actions lead to no-combat instant death.

That sounds like somekind of "hardcore" or higher difficult lvl to me. You guys dont want the game be too easy, but Im not sure what it has to do with consequences. Player who plays on easy or very difficult lvl, the consequences should be the same. Lots of people like to play game on easy mode.

I mean, I don't have any stake in what rules fall under Story Mode, which is the Easy difficulty for Larian games. Honestly I am just not going to play on that difficulty. No offense to anyone that does.

In regular difficulty I think instant death for doing something incredibly stupid seems fair.


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Originally Posted by Leucrotta
I'm all for stupid choices having consequences. I like seeing 'nonstandard game overs' in video games and I don't like it when games make it feel like your character can't fail. I don't like to see 'bad' choices result in a lesser experience with less content however.

As an example, In a book or tabletop game, a poor choice or outcome (like losing a fight) might result in the party being captured. That's just another exciting new chapter in your adventure/the hook for next week's D&D session! A frequent occurrence with video games I see however, is that failure or poor choices often just lock you out of content. quests fail, you don't get the reward, there's no follow-up, etc. A complaint I have voiced before in regards to evil choices in BGIII is that evil choices often feel like they are treated as 'wrong' choices and result in you being cut off from content without any equivalent experience to replace it with.

Absolutely agree with this.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
+1. Especially since you can reload in a video game.

In a tabletop session, yes it is dumb to attack an Adult Red Dragon at low levels. But - and I recognize this is a very polarizing topic - some people would argue that DMs should adjust situations to the party's decisions and not kill characters. Please don't focus on whether you agree with this statement. All I'm asking is that you acknowledge that some players will be very attached to their characters and not want them to die. In some heroic-fantasy games, player death is not expected and the DM will come up with other punishments/results of characters' actions (see @Leucrotta's post above).

In BG3, if the Red Dragon attacks me with its full might and TPK's my party, then that's a great! I get to experience the consequences of my actions - getting my ass handed to me - but then can reload and still have the characters I like playing with. Additionally, this opens up the possibility for challenges: I might try again and again and again to beat this dragon, feeling real triumph if I eventually figure out a way and win after countless grueling battles. This possibility is lost if the dragon just flies away when you attack it, or it every enemy we face is scaled to be at a level we can easily win against.

Phrased Differently: Video games can be more punishing than tabletop because it is much less effort to reload than to create new characters
.

Agreed. The reload function makes the experience much easier than a TT-session. Although I'd argue that, like Leucrotta said, death shouldn't be the only possible outcome of every "stupid" decisions, but certain death is certainly better than pretending nothing happened. In this particular case, a full player team wipe could be the answer. Downing the majority of the party while one got away with low health and thus can help the others up (and I definitely want to hear the party whine about the character decision back at camp later on :'] ), being captured could be another (although not sure that makes sense in this particular case), or perhaps one of the companions could butt in and try to disarm the situation by singing the dragon's praises. Imagine Gale jumping in trying to talk us out of the situation, perhaps bribing it with gold from our inventory (that our character can either refuse, support or ignore), and depending on the result the dragon either flies away with our gold or ... Burn the party down to the ground. :]

Also, I really want to mention that I'd even say that *most* players are really attached to their characters when it comes to TT and that *most* would rather attempt to metagame a bit rather than RP themselves into a certain death. In a TT-game, it can really put players in an awkward position if the DM often have high CR enemies that either forces the party to wipe or being rail roaded into a certain story path.

Don't get me wrong - if it happens once in a while then that is *mostly* fine with me as that is totally something that could happen - sometimes enemies are simply stronger than you are. BUT, only as long as the DM handles the situation well.... But seriously, forcing a party of ... Let's say low level, good alignment paladins to stand face to face with an adult red dragon might demand that the players either A) wipe, because dying heroically trying to stop it is what their characters would do despite certain death - or B) metagame, and try to figure out a RP-reason why afterwards. is kind of a douche move, imo.

Last edited by Dez; 29/01/22 03:36 AM.

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Originally Posted by Dez
But seriously, forcing a party of ... Let's say low level, good alignment paladins to stand face to face with an adult red dragon might demand that the players either A) wipe, because dying heroically trying to stop it is what their characters would do despite certain death - or B) metagame, and try to figure out a RP-reason why afterwards. is kind of a douche move, imo.
Yup. In this situation, imo it's acceptable and even expected that the DM will metagame a bit on the players' behalf. E.g., saying "are you suuuuuure you wish to do this?" or "Give me a perception check. [Perception] Okay (regardless of the result), before you release that arrow, you take a good look at the dragon and realize it's way too powerful for you. You may want to find a different way." It's perfectly fine, even good, to have your party come face-to-face with an overwhelming powerful enemy. That sets up a great contrast for when the party becomes that powerful. But players are dumb, so extra care must be taken with these situations lest the players charge in and die.

Of course, it's more difficult for a videogame to be as reactive to the players. But again, consequences like TPK are less punishing in a videogame because reloading.

...wait, actually it's not more difficult to do this! Enemies in BG3 have (I think still have?) level indicators, AND you can freely inspect enemy stats. I don't want BG3 to have either of these to be honest, at least not without a nature/arcana/int check, but I'd prefer deadly enemies and these indicators over the lack of either.

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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Like with the dragon, a cutscene plays where the dragon takes off and then incinerates your entire party - No combat starts, you just die. There is precedent for this with Planescape Torment, certain actions lead to no-combat instant death.
+1! +1! +1!

Just as it is with Mind Flayer on the beach. :3
There should be a LOT more dialogue traps.


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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Like with the dragon, a cutscene plays where the dragon takes off and then incinerates your entire party - No combat starts, you just die. There is precedent for this with Planescape Torment, certain actions lead to no-combat instant death.

I'm not sure about this. Yeah, stupid decisions should have consequences, but insta death is just frustrating, nothing else. You should at least get the chance to fight the dragon when it attacks you, even if your chances of survival are slim. In a tabletop session, players would be outraged if the DM said 'and you all die, no combat, the end.'

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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Like with the dragon, a cutscene plays where the dragon takes off and then incinerates your entire party - No combat starts, you just die. There is precedent for this with Planescape Torment, certain actions lead to no-combat instant death.

I cannot be the only one who instantly thought of the fire corpse-witch-thing on the north side of Cloisterwood (DoS2). I can't be the only one who accidentally stumbled upon her when I was exploring and just got wiped out... A lot. :<

EDIT: and that damned witch is one hella good argument/indication that Larian (just like Owlcats) do have a tendency to drop insta-death encounters in lower level places. ; _ ;

Last edited by Dez; 29/01/22 12:41 PM.

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Originally Posted by Sigi98
In a tabletop session, players would be outraged if the DM said 'and you all die, no combat, the end.'
I dunno ... it have exactly same outcome as attacking level 10 dragon ... on level 4. O_o
It just saves time like this. laugh

And since we are not on a tabletop session ... and we CAN reload (on contrary to them) ... i would certainly preffer saving time. O_o


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Originally Posted by Sigi98
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Like with the dragon, a cutscene plays where the dragon takes off and then incinerates your entire party - No combat starts, you just die. There is precedent for this with Planescape Torment, certain actions lead to no-combat instant death.

I'm not sure about this. Yeah, stupid decisions should have consequences, but insta death is just frustrating, nothing else. You should at least get the chance to fight the dragon when it attacks you, even if your chances of survival are slim. In a tabletop session, players would be outraged if the DM said 'and you all die, no combat, the end.'

Yes but attacking an Adult Red Dragon in a brightly lit outdoor area with no real cover at level 4 is about the dumbest thing you can do - in a TT session a good DM would give you several outs and warnings and ask a ton of questions before allowing the action to take place. If no one headed those warnings, hints and so forth then game over. Better luck next time.

That is a realistic encounter. If you allow combat to start you open the door for players to cheat and use black-magic fuckery to try to win an encounter they could never win.


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HEEEEELL YEAH!

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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Sigi98
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Like with the dragon, a cutscene plays where the dragon takes off and then incinerates your entire party - No combat starts, you just die. There is precedent for this with Planescape Torment, certain actions lead to no-combat instant death.

I'm not sure about this. Yeah, stupid decisions should have consequences, but insta death is just frustrating, nothing else. You should at least get the chance to fight the dragon when it attacks you, even if your chances of survival are slim. In a tabletop session, players would be outraged if the DM said 'and you all die, no combat, the end.'

Yes but attacking an Adult Red Dragon in a brightly lit outdoor area with no real cover at level 4 is about the dumbest thing you can do - in a TT session a good DM would give you several outs and warnings and ask a ton of questions before allowing the action to take place. If no one headed those warnings, hints and so forth then game over. Better luck next time.

That is a realistic encounter. If you allow combat to start you open the door for players to cheat and use black-magic fuckery to try to win an encounter they could never win.

One way or another, at least our stupid choices would have consequences. Anything that isn't just 'the dragon and the githyanki rider fly away' would be an improvement.

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Originally Posted by Sigi98
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Like with the dragon, a cutscene plays where the dragon takes off and then incinerates your entire party - No combat starts, you just die. There is precedent for this with Planescape Torment, certain actions lead to no-combat instant death.

I'm not sure about this. Yeah, stupid decisions should have consequences, but insta death is just frustrating, nothing else. You should at least get the chance to fight the dragon when it attacks you, even if your chances of survival are slim. In a tabletop session, players would be outraged if the DM said 'and you all die, no combat, the end.'
Imo it depends on how this is presented in the game. In PST the Lady killing TNO is one possible solution to his quest and becomes an ending to his story, if the player choses to. Whereas in BG2 there are some instances where an unkillable assassin will kill your character as a method of "protecting" the main plot. And to me that is the difference: is this "game over" a part of the story or something immersion breaking.

edit: Actually, there is one example involving mindflayers in NWN: HotU. Your character is trapped in an illusion caused by midnflayers, and there is a character who is very obviously trying to lure you to "give in". If you choose that option in dialogue, you get a "game over". laugh

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I wonder if the lack of non-standard game-overs has to do with the multiplayer aspect in some form. In pretty much any other game having your MC get drained by Asterion or have their brain sucked out and eaten by the injured mindflayer, would be a 'GAME OVER', but that isn't the case in BGIII. It's rather odd.

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Originally Posted by Leucrotta
I wonder if the lack of non-standard game-overs has to do with the multiplayer aspect in some form.
Yup, very much so. That, and cheap resurects.

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I just leave this here:
Just for the fun.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Yes, I agree with this. Also there has to be timing involved in how long the rider stays there by the bridge (maybe 8 sleeping sessions as an example - after that he leaves and only the raiding party is encountered), because if you avoid the scene and comeback after you are lvl 10 and can maybe manage to kill him that would just be bad. I do think he should use breath weapon and fly away if you poke him, likely killing lvl 4 characters if not the remaining party of githyanki can do the job.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I just leave this here:
Just for the fun.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I nearly died out of laughter reading this. X]


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but you have to admit, it's alarmingly accurate


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There are already examples of this in the game, the very first roll of the game is a mild one that I think, is supposed to teach you that just because you can, does not mean you always should.

A big stupid decision that follows with an easy tpk is the mind flayer you find after crashing, you can choose to peek into its thoughts after it gets distracted, and if you do so, you have a very high chance of having your brain gobbled up.

Now when it comes to the red dragon? I am betting if something can be killed, it will be, no matter how much higher level or stronger than the party is at the time, players would find a way, that is the only reason I can see why it should always fly away. But honestly I would be fine with it being killable. In general I agree though, dumb decisions should lead to dumb deaths!

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+1 for more dialogue traps and hilarious consequences. I felt during my plathroughs that there are some but i would prefer if Larian is more brave about it I think.

I was actually expecting "a teaching moment" during the tutorial (Disco Elysium did a great job introducing hilarious consequences during the first hours of the game and teaching you to be excited about every decision you make going forward) but I might have just missed it as others mentioned there is something like that already.

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