Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback SHOOOOOOOVE

I mean I don't know what to tell you. Even people who are complaining about it admit that when they actually take defensive action, they were somehow able to get passed these extremely difficult shoving matches with enemies who could push them all the way across the map. It seems to actually work.

I don't record my games as a habit. But I have had my characters pushed both once and by two separate enemies (one pushed most of the way and then the next turn another pushed Wyll into the lava. I've had Lae'zel OS into lava. Even after positioning them over by the camp or whatever you would call that area where most of the crates are located. That requires meta-knowledge to do that to even know, in the turn based system, that could have 2-4 of the dwarves go before you even get in a potion. Had a GNOME push my 18 dex ranger into the lava. I wish I could say my experience was your experience. I'd still be playing. It got so ridiculous I just uninstalled the game and will likely wait another year before returning to see if it is fixed. At least they fixed the game continually crashing at the end of the prologue.

Joe

I'm not sure how did you miss that other people "Pay attention to their surroundings" as well, which is how they go through fights.

The problem becomes precisely that more often than not the area you need to "pay attention to" covers a good portion of the current arena, with the AI being overly-enthusiastic about using that juicy bonus action shove at any give chance.

In a condition of normality a player SHOULD worry at most of not standing on a brink of a precipice/trap/lava pit. And in any other case a shove should just push them away or prone on the ground.
Not here. Here your "danger zone extends for meters around you. Being "shoved down a hole" is not something that could happen if you stand on its brink. It's something that can happen if you stand anywhere in its general proximity.

I mean, you could also provide a recording showing that characters aren't shoved as far as others are saying. E.g., go to that Nere fight put Lae'zel in the center of that platform, and reload until an enemy shoves them. Then you can measure exactly how far they're shoved. Actually you could do this test for any flat ground with a ledge nearish by, as you do say "the game gives you an extra boost to go over the ledge". Why are GM4Him, fylimar, and Tuco's claims less trustworthy than yours and Jandk's?

Also, Seems like you agree with what many people are saying here..? Shove should be an action and only shove 5 feet.
If shove-haters are actually exaggerating distances, then Larian "changing" shove to 5 feet won't change anything and the posters will look silly.
If shove distances are variable and/or you're understating the effects of shove, then you & them will be happy if Larian changes it to 5 feet.

Same here. My computer has enough issues running certain areas of BG3. I don't need it being taxed further recording videos just to prove to people that what I'm saying actually happens. Maybe consider the possibility that we ARE in fact having these issues, even if you have never had it happen to you. Instead of constantly saying we're comical and exaggerating and making a big deal out of nothing, it might be nice if you gave us some sort of benefit of the doubt.

I'm not out here to make crap up just because I think a certain mechanic is dumb. If I didn't care about the quality of this game, I wouldn't waste my time. I've spent my money on it. I've played it like 600 hours now. I've more than made up for the money I spent on it. I don't need to be out here arguing with people over this stuff. I'm doing it because I want this game to be awesome, not so I can cause fights with people or overexaggerate issues.

This stuff is happening to me, and it isn't ALL the time, but it's enough to make me waste my time to actually give the feedback out here to try to improve the game because when it happens, it sucks. It sucks big time. Lose initiative. Get shoved off ledge 30+ feet from the edge. Reload. Lose initiative. Get shoved AGAIN off ledge. Reload. It's dumb.

First time I ever played this game, I HATED the Hag. HATED the fight. I liked the concept of it, but she was a Shoving BRUTE. First time I played through, I had to redo that fight like a dozen times. Why? Because I couldn't hit her with ANYONE, and she pounded me with three versions of herself... oh... and she LOVED to teleport up behind my characters and shove my characters right down through the central pit to their deaths, even from 30+ feet away. And how did I originally beat her? My cleric got lucky with a 25% chance to shove her, and he succeeded, shoving her 20 feet into the hole and killing her. Everyone else in my party was dead, and only by sheer luck WITH A SHOVE did I beet her with a cleric who had 8 HP left. I didn't even care that I won like that. I just went with it because DANG she was a monster... all 3 of her.

Shove has always been an issue, but quite frankly, it's becoming even more of an issue than way back then, which is why I created the thread. Hah! Notice when I first made this post. It wasn't way back a year and a half ago. It's more recent. Why? Because I can't take the Shove mechanics anymore. Yes, we discussed fixing it previous to this thread, but the point was that I was so frustrated with getting killed with a 1-Hit KO Shove garbage that I wanted to express just how frustrating it is and how they absolutely need to fix this and hopefully soon. I don't like coming out here and going round and round and round and round again about the same exact stupid stuff just for my health.

The duergar in Grymforge make it SO much worse because they all like to shove you into lava on that platform outside the temple. Sounds like quite a few of us have had the same experience with Lae'zel, or whoever, getting tossed around like they weigh 5 pounds and can be shotput 300 feet through the air. And I'm even MORE frustrated with the mechanic because now they've added Throw which makes it 100 times worse. So far, thankfully, enemies haven't thrown me, but I can certainly go around throwing a good number of things so that Throwing makes combat with weapons, potions, spells practically useless. Why bother with any other mechanics when you can pick up a goblin or an invincible tiefling kid and throw them around endlessly dealing damage to not only the thing being thrown but whoever you're hitting, with incredible accuracy. Most throws are 75% chance of success or higher.

So sure, I could NOT throw. Sure, I could NOT shove, but enemies do shove and they will.

And as Maximuuus said, I'd LOVE to be able to use Shove for its original purpose and intent. I'd love it if I could just shove someone Prone or 5 feet and use that as a tactical advantage in combat instead of as an OP method of GGing just about every enemy in the game. I'd love to be able to Throw as well and use it as a tactical option in combat instead of being able to hit better by throwing enemies into each other than I could with a ranged weapon. Honestly, why ever use a bow or crossbow now when I can pick up a goblin and hit better, dealing damage to both the goblin I'm throwing and the goblin I'm throwing into?

I want to Shove. I want to Throw. I don't want them to be yeeting tools for memes, and I don't want enemies using these things to yeet my characters for 1-Hit KO's from halfway across a screen.

Balance! Geez, I sound like a druid or Harper, but DANG this game needs more balance. Classes need more balance. Throws and shoves. Resting and camping. Time! Item management. Potions and scrolls. Items. Invisibility - yes, too many things LOVE invisibility. Teleportation - like invisibility, there is just TOO much teleportation in the game like phase spiders, gith patrol... Jumping. Still haven't limited jumping so that it eats up appropriate movement points. I can still jump and gain extra distance. And by the Nine! A goblin shouldn't be able to jump from the ground level up to the top of a cliff like one of the archers did during my last Initial Grove Gate fight. I kid you not - no exaggeration - the goblin jumped from the ground up to the top of that hill opposite the gate. One jump - 30 feet up. Come on! It's a goblin. Distance you should be able to jump up is maybe five feet, and that's if you're really Athletic. Michael "Air" Jordan would be put to shame by the characters in this game. And minotaurs shouldn't hulk stomp from 60+ feet across the game map, which also happened to me the last fight I had with minotaurs in Patch 6. Ranged attacks. Can ANYTHING be just melee? I mean, some monsters were made for melee, like Phase Spiders, so that you can use different tactics for different monsters. There's no need to learn how to strategically kill anything in this game because almost all creatures have the same strats. High ground and shoot you or run up and shove you - or both. Get to high ground and if you try to join them they shove you back down and then shoot you with +2 to hit. (Also happened just recently with the archer who jumped 30 feet up to the top of the hill.)

You know, I gotta say, it's pretty insulting to have people come out here and demand video proof for something like this. How many pages is this thread? How many people on this thread have said pretty much the same thing that Shove and now Throw distances are too much? How many other threads have there been on this topic? How many other forums and such have similar threads with people saying the same thing?

But one or two people come out here saying, "I've never had this happen to me, so all of you are just exaggerating and being comical and ridiculous. Just get good, scrubs and stop standing less than 60 feet from ledges. And prove that it's happening. Prove it to me because I don't believe you. Show me video."

Insulting.

It does seem to be more than just us, too. The Steam discussions around Shove have been very similar. There was one thread I could find on Reddit that liked the comic nature of shove, but the other threads also mention it is OP and offered similar points on how to balance it out (and more DnD 5e) as have been discussed here (even by those who enjoy the comedic aspect). I don't frequent those boards enough to know anything remotely exhaustive of the discussions, but there does seem to be a large consensus of the problem.

Joe

I agree that shove should be a standard action but I'm not seeing examples of the distance being wildly exaggerated. In that fight with Nere, I repeatedly shoved those duerger five feet. If they had gone further, the battle would have ended even faster. You can fire up the game and get somebody to shove you or shove somebody else in five minutes. It's these wild exceptions that are hard to replicate. (I feel like I am more often frustrated that I can't quite get people to go over a cliff, and it feels very rewarding when I can make it happen, and this tactic is even more rewarding when shove is a standard action because you know you MADE it happen rather than just got it as a bonus.)

Here. Want video? Why shove is op.

Look how far that goblin flies.

Gale shoves bugbear, like I did, 15 feet to edge, then another 30 feet to next edge and all the way down to Orm.

There. Proof.

Look at that distance! Measure it out. How far is that? Can YOU shove that far? What? 18-20 meters maybe?

Anti-climactic Ethel fight. Dash and Shove. 1-Hit KO.

Bye Ethel.

Speaking of boss fights. This is an old version, please tell me it doesn't work anymore.

Clearly he's at fault since he was sitting right next to it and he didn't pAy AtTenTiOn to hIs SurRoundings!

In all seriousness, nobody here has ever said they want it changed permanently so that every player has to deal with Shove the way "we want it." All anybody has ever asked for is a game setting that allows those who do want to, to turn Shove into a more balanced (in our opinion) action in the game. Many of those who are arguing for that setting adjustment are doing so because they've had actual experiences in the game that made Shove as a bonus action seem like an unbalanced mechanic. Some are coming at it from the perspective that it doesn't adhere to the D&D 5e rules that we're familiar with. I have no problem with you enjoying Shove the way that it is. I have no problem with you saying that it creates the necessity of ingenuity in combat regarding positioning. I'm very happy that you enjoy that mechanic as it currently exists. I don't understand why you can't allow for the possibility that not everybody feels that way, and that our opinion about wanting it changed is just as valid as yours? That's not a difficult premise to intellectually accept, I don't think. Nobody is here saying, "Make sure JandK doesn't get to play with his shiny toys!" We're just saying, we don't like the shiny toys as they currently exist, and, please, if possible, oh Larian programmers, could we maybe get a setting that allows us to adjust it into something we'd find more fun?


See now, that's 100% tribal, and not at all helpful, and again, to be dismissive of other people's experience doesn't allow any room for the fact that other people who have played this game have had wildly different experience than you've had. Last time I checked, you're not logged into my Larian account or sitting at my PC playing the character I built in the playstyle that I've chosen to play in. To just assume everyone's experience can't actually be the way they've (consistently by the way) described, is dangerously close-minded and ego-centric. It also doesn't really offer anything productive to the discussion, unless you are asserting that, "you're wrong because I've never experienced that," is productive. If you just want us all to feel bad for having an opinion, then please just come in and say: "you're dumb and I hate you for existing in a world that doesn't mirror my own." I'm not mad at you because you've never experienced any playable character in the game being yeeted off a cliff to their death. It seems as though you might be mad at me because I have? As, obviously, others have as well. I understand that your opinion that Shove is fine as it is, is perfectly valid, and should be taken into account for any decision regarding the game. Please, by all means, continue to enjoy Shove as it is. At the same time, please also open your mind to accept the fact that not everyone likes it as is, and that too is okay.

I think we all need to stop thinking about this as a "you're wrong and I'm right" argument. Both sides of the argument are right. Shove is fun, for some. Shove is not fun for others. Nobody is wrong. Nobody here is saying, if they are trying to productively discuss the topic anyway, that anybody is wrong. Everyone is just trying to make sure that their valid opinions should be taken into account while this game is in early access. There is no "us," and there is no "them," in this argument. We're all here, or we should be at least, in a public forum to make sure that our right, as consumers of an early access game, to discuss features that we'd like to see adjusted, is taken into account. In the future, please refrain from belittling people who hold a different opinion, just because you have no basis for understanding that opinion is a valid one.

I have posted it during patch 6 but it's worth repeating. Oblitarated thanks to AI using shove on every opportunity. Red lines indicate archs I have been somehow shoved through, and green line indicated archer, who left his highground, jogged accross the screen and shoved on of the characters into the lava.....

#MeToo ...

On this exact spot.
I thought im far enough ... i wasnt.

What Shove SHOULD look like:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZXI3b_SFXX0RanDOVe88mN0e97DmWoZT/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WzLP0P-y1GfBeU7rbw7TnqHR39Yord1Q/view?usp=sharing

There. I actually took some video. Solasta, mind you, but it runs better with video on my PC than Baldur's does.

Anyway, these are two examples of how Shove SHOULD work in D&D which is far more strategic and way more realistic. Notice, I can still use Shove tactically in Solasta. VERY tactically. My Sorcerer was able to shove a skeleton off the edge to a lower level, and he took 4 falling damage. Then she later dropped down and helped finish him off with a few others.

Notice how the Barbarian Half-Orc used Shove. Knock prone. Then with his second attack, he got Advantage on his attack roll. Shove. Advantage with Greatsword.

THAT is how shove is supposed to work, and notice they didn't go flying 30+ feet through the air whenever they got shoved. Subtle, not extreme.

I was really lucky on my patch 7 playthrough because the ennemy tried to shove me a lot, but most often not to push me off a cliff or in lava... They did it sometimes but they mostly tried to do it to disengage and wake their sleeping allies up (ofc after a while I stopped using this useless spell)
In my patch 6 playthrough I had the exact same experience too. I even had a game over in the boat...

I had a character insta-killed on the boat by a knockback arrow before they got a turn. I mean... is nothing enough? If they can't get to you they are given ranged shoves. In an area where moving away from the edge is impossible. Falling in water being an instant death is another interesting issue.

I also had characters shoved into lava in the Nere fight even though they were seemingly placed far enough from it and then some.

Also goblins in the fort were given knockback arrows they can use to push you in the spider pit from range. I guess these goofy moves would be ok if the game also looked like a cartoon. But it looks realistic and plays like a cartoon which is a bit off-putting. And they could cut down the number of special magic arrows given to the first low level enemy you fight. There should be some logic in Faerûn who can craft and afford such things and how common they are in general.

When I played it in patch 6 I felt that fight got shove nerfer a lot (or maybe I got lucky with AI). But before the AoE shoving arrows were a nightmare.

I'm just very tired of it. The volatility of it makes the game not as much fun.

Goblin commands high ground, so he gets +2 to attack and AC. I climb up to be on even playing field. He runs up, shoves me down and then shoots me. So I took damage from falling and getting shot in one turn. Then another comes and shoots a thunder arrow and I go sailing even further.

Not strategic, and not fun.