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JandK Offline OP
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Is there any real benefit to playing a Rogue versus a Dex based Fighter with the Urchin background?

The Rogue can get an extra bonus action. That's strong. But I just don't see how that competes with the Fighter's combat styles and armor options.

The Rogue gets extra skills. Shrug. Does that compete?

What do you think? Is there any reason to choose a Rogue over a Dex based Fighter that can pick locks?

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Only reason I can think of why you would choose Rogue right now is sneak attack... That expertise is missing completely doesn't help of course.

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Sneak attack is quite powerful, if you’re strategic you can get it on almost every round.



Feel free to steal my profile pic if you feel the same way. Let's show some solidarity.
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You don't need sleight of hand or much dex to pick locks. Even a 10 dex can open all locks.

I usually just use whatever random char is currently selected, it's not like I'm short on lockpick kits and they weight a ton.

Shadowheart is all the "rogue" you will ever need, not like she is any use as a damage dealer or healer, but she is a decent rogue for traps/detection and the game even has a shield that make her better at detection.

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Rogues are masters of combat flexibility due to the extra Bonus Action and the open ended options on using that bonus action. The kind of builds you can put together will give you superior damage while also making you nearly impossible to kill.

See below for the strongest build you can have. Rogue is one of the few classes you can solo the entire game with simply because the extra bonus action lets you stealth and attack every single round with sneak attack damage (which is +2d6 at level 4, and will jump to 3d6 at level 5)

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=784086#Post784086

However, having said that Rogue also requires a higher base level of skill to play. You are a tactical-exploiter of opportunities. It will take some time to learn to assess a battlefield and see where the opportunities are. Some people just don't really enjoy that kind of play style and so the fighter in that case makes the better option.


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More coding problems, unfortunately.

They have not solved how to program Expertise, or related, Elvin Accuracy, Luck, and other core mechanics related to multiple dice roles. They need to get some outside consultant advice to see who comes up with the best solution. Their in-house experts have banged their heads against the wall for far too long.

This a D-20 game. The manipulation of dice roles is not even optional.

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Originally Posted by Van'tal
More coding problems, unfortunately.

They have not solved how to program Expertise, or related, Elvin Accuracy, Luck, and other core mechanics related to multiple dice roles. They need to get some outside consultant advice to see who comes up with the best solution. Their in-house experts have banged their heads against the wall for far too long.

This a D-20 game. The manipulation of dice roles is not even optional.

!!!

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Originally Posted by Van'tal
More coding problems, unfortunately.

They have not solved how to program Expertise, or related, Elvin Accuracy, Luck, and other core mechanics related to multiple dice roles. They need to get some outside consultant advice to see who comes up with the best solution. Their in-house experts have banged their heads against the wall for far too long.

This a D-20 game. The manipulation of dice roles is not even optional.

Yes, they have problems with adding expertise, but not with adding all other modifiers guidance, skill bonuses from equipment, guidance. Elven Accuracy shouldn't be in the game (it's not in PHB). Lucky seemed to work as described on my halfing run, but of course I can't know how it interacts with disadvantage/advantage. Combat Log just shows advantage. Unless, you are one willing to test it by rolling about 20000 times, so we could analyze the results.

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JandK Offline OP
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I'm not sure if that comment was meant to be sarcastic, but there's no way they can't figure out how to code expertise. It's basic math.

*

When I first made this post, I undervalued sneak attack. Now that I've fully played through the game with a rogue, I see the strength. Those sneak attacks are formidable, especially when combined with poison.

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Originally Posted by Elebhra
Lucky seemed to work as described on my halfing run, but of course I can't know how it interacts with disadvantage/advantage. Combat Log just shows advantage. Unless, you are one willing to test it by rolling about 20000 times, so we could analyze the results.

Halfling luck has not been implemented in the game as of yet, despite it being listed in game on the halfling race block - this was confirmed in bug report response emails some time ago.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by Elebhra
Lucky seemed to work as described on my halfing run, but of course I can't know how it interacts with disadvantage/advantage. Combat Log just shows advantage. Unless, you are one willing to test it by rolling about 20000 times, so we could analyze the results.

Halfling luck has not been implemented in the game as of yet, despite it being listed in game on the halfling race block - this was confirmed in bug report response emails some time ago.

Are you sure it wasn't implemented at some point?

I just tested a Halfling on Intellect Devourer on Nautiloid with 100 rolls I couldn't get him to roll 1. Of course it's not conclusive (0,59% chance of that happening), but it tracks with my experience on my previous playthrough. Average was a bit higher than expected (11.11 compared to 11 or 10.975), but all possible rolls except 1 were present. Whether they made it impossible to roll 1 or it is an actual reroll is impossible for me to tell. However, if someone showed me a roll 1 on halfling, I would probably be more inclined to see it as a proof of the latter being the case, rather than mechanic not being present at all.

Last edited by Elebhra; 28/06/22 11:28 AM.
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There is mod for expertise on Nexus ...
That should provide insight on how hard it would be to implement.


In the words of the senior NCO instructor at cadet battalion:
“If you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying. And if you got caught you didn’t try hard enough!”
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I've not submitted a fresh report as of the very latest patch, so I can't say I'm certain, no, but as of the immediately previous patch this was definitely the case and was confirmed in email as being so. I'd understand if they didn't list it in the patch notes as fixed though, since up until now it's been 'claiming' to be in game without having been implemented at all... and they might not want to shout about that, I guess?

When I did my rng testing a while ago (an exercise which involved recording over over 800 rolls), I did note that the halfling in question rolled no 1s in certain circumstances, but was still clearly capable of rolling them in others... my current suspicion is that they've got a 'stop-gap' measure in place until they've got the actual feature in.

Here's the chain:

Category || Baldurs Gate 3
Platform || PC
Type || Bug
Firstname || Erica
Email || *****
Topic || Halfling Luck
Body || "In ability checks, the new roll interface shows us more clearly what we roll for our advantage and disadvantage rolls, at least for ability checks - however this also highlights and illustrates the fact that Halfling's Lucky feature is not triggering or functioning - when we roll with advantage, as a halfling, and one of the rolls is a natural 1, it does not re-roll the one to see if it beats the other die; the game simply takes the higher number."

==

To: *****
Subject: Re: Halfling Luck - PC - [bug]

This feature has not been implemented yet.

==

To: BG3 Support <supportbg3@larian.com>
Subject: Re: Halfling Luck - PC - [bug]

As in, Halfling's Lucky feature hasn't been implemented at all yet, or just that it hasn't been worked into functioning with ability checks at least as of the new interface? (Just so I know for forestalling future bug reports)

Either way, no worries. thanks for the fast repsonse.

-Erica

==

To: *****
Subject: Re: Halfling Luck - PC - [bug]

It has not been implemented at all yet.
==

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Originally Posted by Niara
I've not submitted a fresh report as of the very latest patch, so I can't say I'm certain, no, but as of the immediately previous patch this was definitely the case and was confirmed in email as being so. I'd understand if they didn't list it in the patch notes as fixed though, since up until now it's been 'claiming' to be in game without having been implemented at all... and they might not want to shout about that, I guess?

When I did my rng testing a while ago (an exercise which involved recording over over 800 rolls), I did note that the halfling in question rolled no 1s in certain circumstances, but was still clearly capable of rolling them in others... my current suspicion is that they've got a 'stop-gap' measure in place until they've got the actual feature in.

Thanks, that's really interesting.

I might test it with attack rolls/saves later today (combat log export would help). I definitely remember seeing 'Attack Roll X (Reroll)' and 'Reroll triggered' in the combat log, however those might be dummies.

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Two points after some testing:

1. I rolled about 400 times including all purposes (skill checks, attacks, saves) I can say with some certainty that Lucky is working, however there are some problems with it (see 2.). I rolled a bit over 400 times and got 1 once. This is about what one could expect, since chance of rolling 1 on a reroll is 1 in 400. According to Lucky description in game (and RAW in 5e) if you decided to reroll your Nat 1 you must take new result, so if on reroll 1 is used you must take it.

The average roll was 11,29 which was bit above expected average with lucky (10,975), but within being very likely with limited number of rolls. I never seen act of rerolling in skill checks, but it's clear now that the reroll is happening in the background. Combat log while not showing the initial number rolled shows the 'Attack Roll N(Reroll)' message (where N is your new rolled number). In addition there is a message 'Reroll triggered' every time it happens.

2. With all that said, advantage/disadvantage has some problems. I suspect that in case of Nat 1 first the lucky reroll is considered and afterwards the advantage mechanic (which is not 5e RAW). That makes lucky marginally stronger for a player in case of advantage and worse in case of disadvantage. I don't find it a big issue and I personally wouldn't hold it against Larian if it stayed like that. A bigger problem right now (and maybe why the Lucky implementation wasn't in the patch-notes) is that if you have lucky and advantage/disadvantage on a dice roll combat log will always put Reroll Triggered message and Attack Roll N(Advantage, reroll). I guess that the number rolled still follows the way I described above, but I can't be sure.

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Originally Posted by JandK
Is there any real benefit to playing a Rogue versus a Dex based Fighter with the Urchin background?

The Rogue can get an extra bonus action. That's strong. But I just don't see how that competes with the Fighter's combat styles and armor options.

The Rogue gets extra skills. Shrug. Does that compete?

What do you think? Is there any reason to choose a Rogue over a Dex based Fighter that can pick locks?

I've been watching a streamer who breaks down all the classes. He said, now this may seem counterproductive, but apparently a strength based rogue/thief is actually way better than a dexterity based one. I think he pointed out that many of your skills actually benefit more from strength than they do from dexterity. And strength makes you super mobile on top of that. Imagine it. You can Sprint 3 times a turn and even save enough distance to mix a long jump in there as well. And that's without mobility buffs. Plus there's a set of boots in the game that when you're sprinting build up an electrical charge and do more damage for the longer you have sprinted. So if you put them on your rogue and do 3 long sprints. Your next attack is going to hit for a ridiculous amount of damage.

Last edited by PixieStix2; 03/07/22 05:12 PM.

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