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Sorry to be a worrier, but we have a studio that doesn't update it's own web page for months at a time, has been in early access/development for well over 2 years, is (optimistically speaking) at the 70% complete phase (Just off the top of my head still need Gnome and Half-orc character races, Paladin, Monk and possibly Bard classes, balancing, bug chasing, implementation of higher level functions which will definitely affect game play, crafting if the original description is to be believed, etc.) What is functioning here right now is appreciated, but how many times can people play thru the same material with a different character? How large will the final game be? I'm appreciative of the effort a major undertaking requires, however (pause) it was Larian's decision to place this out on the market in it's current state. People did pay for it, even with the caveat and knowledge that it was early access. Some may flame me for being somewhat skeptical that the willpower and resources necessary are still available to completing this project. I do not doubt that there are some on the development team who are dedicated to the completion of this project. I also do not doubt that there are executives and accountants who are saying X amount has gone into this project with an unknown budget requirement to complete. We need finished or finishable projects. It just appears that the project is entering the exhaustion phase with a too far completion goal. I hope I'm wrong because I have enjoyed playing what is available.

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It is a bit worrisome thinking about the possibility that the money we paid to play a game that is "in development" could end up yielding a poor, or no, final result. Perspective and Larian's past record of production are important here.

The way I see it I have paid to participate in the development of the game. I am, effectively, a tester. That's not all. I also don't have to pay for the game again when it is finished. But what if it doesn't get finished?

That is a risk that I have taken by purchasing the game while still in development. Based on Larian's past achievements I feel pretty safe with this gamble. But full price?

It is almost discouraging isn't it? From my perspective, I did not only pay full price for an unfinished game. I also paid to support the development and see the game evolve through its many iterations. Part of the fun right now is picking the game apart and getting a head start learning its underlying system (modders might appreciate this) - as apposed to simply enjoying the game.

It makes sense that a lot of the game's content is hidden from us because the game isn't ready. The developers also don't want to reveal everything as that would be a major spoiler. If it helps, if you're willing, try a change of perspective. Test the game's logic or learn to mod it. Development is like an infinite loop: first you make it, then you break it, repeat. Maybe this isn't really for you...

Your worries are valid; you know the game is "in dev" or "early access". I never pre-order games (except for Grim Fandango) but I took the risk this time because I get to play with the devels (in a way, kind of).

Have fun breaking stuff! grin

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I dunno man ...
Its only Early Acess ... and its allready my second "most played" game on steam. laugh
And in only few dozen hours it will jump to first place ...

It would be sad, if they cancel it ... but i doubt that will happen, this development is FAAAAAAAR beyond that point, when cancelation was a risk. smile
And even if (and that would have to include complete destruction of whole studio) i would not be disapointed with this investition. :-/


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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I think the success of early access will help ensure they do finish the game and get it to completion. Imagine how difficult it would be to spend all this money on years of development with no income. With the income from early access it takes a lot of the financial pressure off.

I think any big project like this runs the risk of getting rushed at the end and quality falling off, but given what we've seen so far, and Larian's track record, I think we'll get a good game. I also think there will be a lot of BG lovers who will not be happy with the final project no matter what.

I actually bought the game twice (I tried Stadia and didn't like the experience, not Larian's fault) and given the number of hours I've spent enjoying it, I'm already pretty happy with the investment.

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Initially, I was worried, but I'm not worried about it not coming out - I'm just wondering how much longer it's going to take. laugh

I admit, I get annoyed by the "radio silence" we get for weeks/months after a patch, but after seeing their panels, they're clearly doing a LOT of work..

I'm replaying again with a Drow character, and I'm seeing tweaks and differences from the last time I did play a Drow - namely, NPCS appear to finally be realizing "Hey, that's a DROW out there!" There have been tweaks to some encounters, and some general improvements in how things function that lead me to believe that they are definitely listening to their fans/players/bugf-hunters when it comes to improving the game and how it plays.

I'm enjoying it so far, although I'm not going to lie, I would *really* like to get access to Level 5 in EA. laugh

Later!

SKP

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Larian punched out there two previous games no problem, this one will be done when it gets done, that's it.

Edit*
If I remember correctly they actually didn't need to do EA at all but did it anyway cause they like community feedback on there games.

Last edited by fallenj; 22/02/22 08:34 PM.
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Level 5 plus give me bard class and rolling for stats the way D&D should be played

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Originally Posted by Dace Highlander
Sorry to be a worrier, but we have a studio that doesn't update it's own web page for months at a time, has been in early access/development for well over 2 years, is (optimistically speaking) at the 70% complete phase (Just off the top of my head still need Gnome and Half-orc character races, Paladin, Monk and possibly Bard classes, balancing, bug chasing, implementation of higher level functions which will definitely affect game play, crafting if the original description is to be believed, etc.) What is functioning here right now is appreciated, but how many times can people play thru the same material with a different character? How large will the final game be? I'm appreciative of the effort a major undertaking requires, however (pause) it was Larian's decision to place this out on the market in it's current state. People did pay for it, even with the caveat and knowledge that it was early access. Some may flame me for being somewhat skeptical that the willpower and resources necessary are still available to completing this project. I do not doubt that there are some on the development team who are dedicated to the completion of this project. I also do not doubt that there are executives and accountants who are saying X amount has gone into this project with an unknown budget requirement to complete. We need finished or finishable projects. It just appears that the project is entering the exhaustion phase with a too far completion goal. I hope I'm wrong because I have enjoyed playing what is available.

Hyperbolic.

Its been in EA since October 2020 - less than 2 years. Release is expected to be 2023 Q1 but maybe sooner.

My friend Crosswind is at 1500 hours played. I am at a little over 1000 hours. Multiplayer is amazing. How many hours are you rockin' Mr. Complainy? :P

The work Larian has done is astonishing. They have consistently shown that they prefer to go radio silent and then do an update every 3-4 months with as much new material and information as they feel comfortable providing.

Larian does not promise anything it cannot do and they have never failed to deliver a game. They won't be releasing a game that is a buggy mess. This is not my first rodeo with them. The game will be done when its fully cooked.

Finally, as you seem to be partially aware, the game isn't "on the market" - its in EA. EA is not for everyone.

The problem is you are used to game companies that overpromise, over communicate and then under deliver. Capitalism has ruined gaming. Larian's way is the healthy/normal way to do things.


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They have consistently shown that they prefer to go radio silent and then do an update every 3-4 months with as much new material and information as they feel comfortable providing.

Radio silence is *NEVER* a good or healthy practice.

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Larian does not promise anything it cannot do

*Muffles her laughter*

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They won't be releasing a game that is a buggy mess.

*Fails to contain it any longer*

D:OS2 is STILL, To This Day A buggy broken mess. It is PACKED with script failures, dialogue non-sequesters that don't line up, incomplete, inaccurate or unhelpful tooltips, conflicting information, quests that don't bestow, progress, or complete variously under a variety of different and often seemingly random conditions, NPCs that assume you have information you don't, because you didn't take a specific path to get to this point, but the game hasn't been programmed to keep track of that.. and the list goes on.

Don't get me wrong, it's a fun, silly game for what it's worth... but it is a MESS... and this game is looking to be delivered in exactly the same state, so far.

Larian has a reputation for Consistently over-selling what they're doing, and then under-delivering the reality. they reliably bite off more than they can chew, and then scramble to do what they said, only partially 'justifiably' manage it, and then work for make it up post-delivery. Now they DO work to make it up - which is better than a lot of game companies. They continued to put out the free gift bags for D:OS2 and drastically improved the QoL of that game with numerous free patches and updates... and that's great, really it is... but let's not pretend they don't always over-promise and under-deliver, or that they don't release buggy broken messes, because they do, and they will do so again this time, if the current course continues.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Larian has a reputation for Consistently over-selling what they're doing, and then under-delivering the reality. they reliably bite off more than they can chew, and then scramble to do what they said, only partially 'justifiably' manage it, and then work for make it up post-delivery.
And yet ...
Here you are. smile


Short coment on my English. smile

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Larian seems more than stable, and I think they interact with their audience well. Not every company puts on a Panel from Hell every time they offer an update.

Personally, I think it's obvious that Larian has a lot more done than what we're currently seeing.

I want to see more races and body types and such, but not because I want to offer feedback on those things. I just think they'd make the game more fun for me, and I'd rather see them sooner than later.

Which brings me to feedback. I think I have a different idea of feedback than some of the other posters here.

Feedback is not development.

The best feedback is saying what was fun and what was boring and what made the game crash and what looked funky or buggy.

As opposed to trying to armchair develop the game from home. By saying the UI should copy such and such game, as an example. Or, and maybe this is a better way of saying it: Larian has a vision. You have to let the artist pursue their vision instead of trying to superimpose your own.

If you want to play a game that isn't anywhere close to Larian's vision, maybe you just want to play a different game. There's nothing wrong with that.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that maybe Larian is putting out stuff it wants feedback on and holding back on things it doesn't want feedback on, especially if that feedback is going to be a lot of the same old commentary that's arguably predictable: stuff like, "It should be closer to pure 5e." <--I'm pretty sure Larian's already heard that, and it either fits their vision or it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
And yet ...
Here you are. smile

Yep, here I am - putting more work into constructively geared feedback than most and doing my best to do what I can - which I know, as a single pair of hands and eyes, is not much - to increase this game's odds of being something I'll enjoy, and that my friends will enjoy, and trying not to get bogged down in exhausting and ultimately pointless arguments.

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Sad ... but completely unrelated to the point. smile

You are either the most stubborn person i know ... and that would be a lot, since i allready know myself. laugh
Or that reputation you were talking about isnt even half as bad as it seemed from your previous coment. wink


Short coment on my English. smile

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No offense, but even with all that, DOS2 was still pretty damn good. And I like BG3 even more than DOS2 already.

On topic: It's been said before, whenever you buy something EA, you're taking a gamble. You're paying money to have the first experience of a game and ultimately contribute towards that game's development. Be it monetary or with feedback, ultimately resulting in higher quality (hopefully).
I personally like BG3 a lot, I can't remember a game I've liked playing as much as BG3 except for the real deal D&D experience.
So far I've got 150 hours into it. IMO well worth the money I've paid already. If the game doesn;t release I'll be sad, maybe a bit angry even. But ultimately I'm okay with it.

I'm not too worried about the game being canceled, I have nothing factual to back that statement up with though except that I feel Larian knows how to make games based on DOS 1 & 2.
But as long as they don't pull a Cyberpunk I'm okay with it.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Sad ... but completely unrelated to the point. smile

To criticize something is not the same as hating it. After all, we can not fix something if we don't know it's broken.

I think you might have misinterpreted the language in Niara's post.

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Originally Posted by heuron
I think you might have misinterpreted the language in Niara's post.
Its certainly possible ... would not be the first time either. laugh
But in this particular case i dont think i did.

Originally Posted by heuron
To criticize something is not the same as hating it. After all, we can not fix something if we don't know it's broken.
Since i dont speak against criticising, nor providing feedback in any form ... and concidering Niara own topics, she provide feedback in depth, we all other combined dont reach even closely.
I really like her work for the game, and despite we dont see eye to eye lately ... i honestly respect her for that dedication.

In this particular case tho, i was only reacting on her speaking about Larian reputation.
From those words it seemed to me like Larian would be one of worse companies in the world, lying and deceiving every time Swen opens his mouth ... and that is what i feel is overreacted ...

Since as i said, IF Niara would actualy believe that Larian is so horrible company, i dont think she would provide them such thorough feedback, since i cant imagine someone thinking about company to be so bad, expecting them to even bother to read it.
That is why i said she is either most stubbort person i know (well i actualy dont, but you understand me i hope) ... or she is at least a little overreacting. wink


Short coment on my English. smile

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Thanks Rag ^.^

I know we don't agree on a lot of stuff, and I do feel you often delight in getting weighted down in the mostly ancillary minutia that derails the point of many discussions... but you're also still here, and you also offer valuable comments about various things, and a good many of your suggestions over the time have been legitimately good ones that I support. I'll do this post in your style, mostly tongue-in cheek ^.^

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
You are either the most stubborn person i know ... and that would be a lot, since i allready know myself. laugh

I'm pretty stubborn when it comes to it... did you know, when my voice was taken, and I was found, I was called in ahead from the ambulance as a suspected doa, and between then and now I've been rushed to the er in an unresponsive state more times than I can count on my hands. My doctors don't have a solid answer to how or why I endured, except to jokingly comment that I'm too darn stubborn to let go. I am very stubborn, and very driven, when it's something important to me ^.^

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No offense, but even with all that, DOS2 was still pretty damn good.

It was! I had fun with it! But acknowledging that doesn't mean I have to pretend that it wasn't a buggy mess with badly written quest logic and internal story-telling conflicts, mis-firing quests, and a slew of various other issues that really should never have been allowed to remain at release date... but did, over a year after launch.

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and concidering Niara own topics, she provide feedback in depth, we all other combined dont reach even closely.

I wouldn't go that far. I do a lot, but so do many other folks here. ^.^

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I really like her work for the game, and despite we dont see eye to eye lately ... i honestly respect her for that dedication.

Thanks ^.^

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From those words it seemed to me like Larian would be one of worse companies in the world, lying and deceiving every time Swen opens his mouth ...

To say that they consistently over-promise and under-deliver doesn't make them the worst company in the world - it just makes them very similar to most other bigger names in the industry, sadly.

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Since as i said, IF Niara would actualy believe that Larian is so horrible company, i dont think she would provide them such thorough feedback, since i cant imagine someone thinking about company to be so bad, expecting them to even bother to read it.

Unless she has confirmation that the information is read and passed into the hands of the people that matter, and unless the game in question, regardless of the company making it, is important to her enough to want to put in the effort - perhaps even despite the company making it.


Whew... I'm sorry, Rag, that just feels so disjointed, doing it that way... I tried though ^.^

Last edited by Niara; 28/02/22 05:54 AM.
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Originally Posted by Niara
Unless she has confirmation that the information is read and passed into the hands of the people that matter, and unless the game in question, regardless of the company making it, is important to her enough to want to put in the effort - perhaps even despite the company making it.
Well i stand corected then.

Originally Posted by Niara
I tried though ^.^
Appreciating the effort. smile


Short coment on my English. smile

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I am not worried the slightest. There's always a radio silence between patches, but with every new patch you can tell they only release a little bit more of what they've been working on meanwhile. Plus their EA has sold really well, as well as DOS1 and 2. They have a lot of money and will not run out of it in a year, lol.


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