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Originally Posted by ash elemental
I don't use the tadpole (I did one run with an evil characte that was just spamming the powers), but I think it's supposed to be creepy, not seductive. I've the impression it is a hint as to what is going to happen if your character keeps using the tadpole too much. You won't be able to resist the absolute anymore at some point, just like Daisy gets more and more power as the dreams progress.
It has quite enough of creepy in it from the tone of conversations you have with it. Also just go in the character creation and read what the game asks you to create, when you're creating Daisy.

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It’s really interesting to see these different takes on the Daisy scenes, and I can’t resist one further response though I’m following Niara’s example and putting behind spoiler tags as it is tangential.


I agree the scenes are creepy, and also assumed they were meant to be. Personally that’s what I like most about them, though recognise mileage will vary. In fact, I also like the fact that the companions react very differently to their dreams, reflecting just that.

I don’t think the scenes are necessarily rape-y, though can see there’s a case to be made and there are certainly ways the interactions can go that very much lead in that direction. For that reason, it’s vital that we are able to roleplay what we see as an appropriate response to the dreams, and while most characters I’d personally play would probably go along with the seduction to a point out of curiosity to find out more and a (probably doomed) hope to be able to turn the tables, I agree there should also be a path that lets us effectively push back and avoid the “seduction” altogether.

And while in principle I can see how resisting Daisy might be related to strength of mind or other traits, in practice I am very uneasy about putting certain responses/ability to push back behind dice rolls as happened in at least one scene in an earlier patch at least. Given the sexual nature of the scenes, being able to fail a saving throw against what I agree could be a kind of rape seems deeply problematic and I can imagine might be very upsetting for some players.

From what Niara says about previous patches, I think Larian may have made some steps towards being able to opt out of the “seduction”, as in my latest playthrough the “too much in my head already” option did seem to shut things down pretty effectively. It was buggy, though, as my companions still talked as if I would know about the seduction even though I didn’t experience it and the dialog options were a bit odd. For example, when Gale asked me what I did, I think I only had options to 1 Lie and say I gave in, 2 Lie and say I relented, 3 Lie and say I did nothing, or 4 Ask him what he did, so it felt there was a missing part of the dialog tree for the option I really picked.

I do still hope that Larian implement an option to have the Daisy conversations without the sexual element so that players (and/or player characters) who would find that too disturbing can still experience this thread of the game. There are plenty of other ways of being ominous and creepy.


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My guess is that the choice to resist the lure or to give in is about using the tadpole. Any time your character gives into temptation, Daisy gets more and more control over them in the dreams. So resisting it is not how much willpower your character has, but whether they can resist taking advantage of these new powers. Daisy cannot even enter the dreams if you stay away from the tadpole powers.

I don't remember the exact wording, but I think it says something like "you lose something you will never get back" when using the tadpole. Could be perhaps whatever is protecting your character from ending up like a brainwashed cultist. Because they are all convinced that the absolute loves them.

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In order to stay on topic: I definitely agree that we should be able to add any features that the players have access to, to the Daisy - and this would include sorcerous marks, tattoos and piercings, etc., It's kinda silly that our 'dream attraction' is more limited than we are.

I'd also like to mention that currently, the halfling model, in the daisy creator, resets their stance in a very visible way - a lot of odd movement - every time you change any of their features, which results in them doing a strange, very overt and exaggerated step-jig as you move through, say, hairs. it's pretty odd, but it also makes comparing things just that little bit more annoying, on top of the really poor design for the creator to being with.

==

To Red,



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I don’t think the scenes are necessarily rape-y, though can see there’s a case to be made and there are certainly ways the interactions can go that very much lead in that direction. For that reason, it’s vital that we are able to roleplay what we see as an appropriate response to the dreams,

This is key; I've said this before myself, and I agree very much - Shadowheart identifies that, no matter what we *actually* say or do in... I think it's the second dream... that we slept with our lover. She asserts is as known fact, and we try to claim otherwise she informs us, in full certainty, that we are fibbing, and that she knows this because they all experienced it. We don't get any further opportunity to comment (because Larian's origin PCs always have to have the last word on us in these things).

You're also right that when it comes to questions of intimacy and sexual encounters, it either must be entirely the player's choice (or something resolved through simple dialogue), or it must be out of their hands; you *cannot* invoke dice rolls on this topic. "Roll to avoid getting raped" is a non-starter at any table, and in any game.

If the PC expresses unwillingness, and later intimacy is implied to have taken place anyway -> that's character rape. The game must be aware that that is what it is doing, and it cannot act as though it is not.
If the player is *not given a choice or option* to express unwillingness with their character and later intimacy is implied to have taken place anyway -> that's also character rape. The game must be aware that that is what it is doing, and it cannot act as though it is not.

That said: If they wish to do that, that's okay. These things shouldn't be blanket banned from media, in my opinion, as long as it's handled well and carefully... as a survivor myself, I'm actually quite okay with games dealing with rape and other situations of non-consent, but, if it happens, the most important thing about it is that we, as our characters, are given sufficient opportunity to show our companions, or otherwise express to the game, how our character feels about it, so that how we move forward from there can be handled in a way that fits.

There are a lot of different ways a character could react, or feel about the outcome, even within each major decision branch as presented - though the main issue is that the second dream doesn't provide any, which is why it feels like more of a character violation than the others.

Actually if you're interested, Red Queen (and anyone else), I wrote a bit about this when I was examining the dreams for the halfling thread - save me typing out similar things again: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=747874#Post747874

One of the main points to emphasise is that using the cover of "it's a dream" doesn't actually matter - imagine if you will, a character who, to this point, hasn't ever slept with anyone, and who is, let's say, courting someone in baldur's gate, whom they hope to one day do such things with; what happened here might be 'only' a dream, but they were still right there, with that other, very real, intelligence, sapient, other entity, and they still had that experience (unwillingly in this case, even if compelled to be agreeable at the time) put upon them; that event, and the memory of it cannot now be taken back, and any first experiences they may have been planning or hoping for with their special someone have been irrevocably stolen - it may not have been 'real' in their physical flesh and blood body, but it was still real in all of the ways that actually matter.

The fact that it was within a dream does not mitigate the actions taken (actions implied and then hard confirmed as having happened by shadowheart), any more than if they were taken by means of someone sneaking into our camp and using a dominate person spell to compel us - and the game must not pretend otherwise, and it must give us due chance to express how we feel about it.

Last edited by Niara; 24/02/22 06:21 PM.
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+1 to OP any new customization is a plus.

To the tadpole part, from what I read sounds messed up. Using the tadpole to violate peoples personal thoughts and controlling people, is messed up also. In general, you deserve whatever daisy does to you, why I never used it to begin with.

Last edited by fallenj; 24/02/22 05:35 PM.
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Just wanted to pop in here and say thanks for clarifying something for me. In my two different playthroughs I was very purposeful about NEVER using the tadpole for anything, as a roleplaying choice for my characters. In the second play through I was successful in getting Omeluum to give me his ring of mind shielding (psionic protection) to suppress the tadpole even further. It took me coming into this thread to realize that I never saw "the object of my attraction" because I never used the tadpole. Seems like, if I have another playthrough in the future (which would depend entirely on some things being added/changed in a new patch), I might use the tadpole powers just to see what all the fuss is about. Cheers!

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I have no issue with using the tadpole against evil creatures trying to kill you. It is sketchy to use it against good beings, and companions though, but I did try it out of curiosity, and the companions do react badly to this, so I think the lesson is learned.

For me, Daisy is too interesting to avoid entirely as a plot device.

Tav pretty much has a lot less free will from the moment the tadpole is implanted. I don't think they can be judged entirely for the actions that occur when they are sleep deprived, and tormented by an evil thing implanted in their brain and a remote handler who is bent on controlling them. Tav is basically being tortured, and manipulated.

Last edited by SereneNight; 24/02/22 06:25 PM.
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Kind of interesting, didn't think of being sleep deprived but if this is true that would cause fatigue for sure. A fatigue system would be interesting in that situation and mental trauma from the tadpole could cause impairment also, trying to think of a good one for that, maybe negative in wisdom saves...donno

All your companions are going through the same thing you are, they have a tadpole in there heads. So ya, you getting judged by them is pretty fair game.

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