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Not gonna continue to quote. Too long.

First, JandK, I did not bring up being a DM in this thread. YOU said, "We've all been DMs, you know. It's not an earned title. In my experience, the best DMs are usually the ones who think things through and come to interesting, out-of-the-box conclusions about things, as opposed to ones who jump on the bandwagon of the most obvious, arbitrary, and unbendable idea."

Then even at that point, never used it as a basis for my opinions. YOU are the one implying such things. I even said I've had plenty of good and bad sessions. I don't pretend to be some Supreme DM who knows everything. By Heavens, no. But I may bring up being a DM from time to time because I have experience with such things. I'm not just some RPG noob who knows nothing about how to run RPG sessions successfully. I'm not just making stuff up. I've tested things. I'm not doing what you have often accused me of, just whipping things out my butt.

I will quote this, however.

Quote
I'm not being rude to anyone. I'm being rational and supporting my points, which I believe may have caused you to react defensively. It's not rude to say I disagree with you or think the points you're making are bad. That's just part of a discussion. I honestly think the real problem you're having is that I'm winning the debate, consistently.

In fact, there's substantial evidence that others have been rude to me, outright mocking me in some posts.

I reacted defensively because you were being offensive. Equal but opposite reaction. If other people are also reacting that way and think you're being rude, maybe it's not just me. Maybe it might just be you. It is true that disagreeing is not rude, but you do not just disagree. You attack and wage war as if we are enemies. You accuse people of things they did not do, like accusing me of bringing some sort of imagined "I'm a DM" authority into this conversation. You call things we say irrational simply because you don't see our point of view even though we're all seeing the same point of view, and you are the only person against it,, and you keep thinking you are winning in a non-existent debate that only you are creating in your own mind.

We are not your enemies here. We are not out to destroy the game. We don't hate it. We're making SUGGESTIONS to make it better because we LIKE the game. We're not doing this for our health. Whether you agree with our suggestions or not, it doesn't actually matter one bit. You aren't Larian, and I don't need to win some debate with you because whether I win or lose it DOESN'T MATTER. You ain't making the decisions. We suggest. They decide. You fighting with people over this stuff doesn't determine whether they will or will not implement it. We're not debating some hot political topic where people's lives will be decided by the end result.

So please stop acting like we're trying to steal your greatest treasure away from you. I agree with the OP. You don't. No need to be so hostile and act all like it's you or us.

Last edited by GM4Him; 28/02/22 07:05 AM.
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Originally Posted by JandK
They show signs of not caring about the armor.
Yes, that is the thing OP suggested to change ...

I mean, i hoped there is no need to mention that, if you want to change something, there must be something different. :-/

Originally Posted by JandK
Again, Lae'zel makes it clear that her people will not come after her. If she fails, she deserved to fail.
Cool ...
How is that related to the topic?
Do you expect her to have that armor signed or something? laugh

Originally Posted by JandK
I have no idea why you keep projecting yourself into the Githyanki.
Seems to me that you do the same.

Originally Posted by JandK
is nothing more than made up speculation.
Nah, its called suggestion ... you know, the very reason this forum exists.

Originally Posted by JandK
My example of an astral market is also made up speculation. But I'm not shoving that idea down anyone's throat ...
[sarcasm]
No you dont ... you clearly just politely stated your opinion and certainly didnt argued, and you most defninietly didnt make the very thing you are complaining about, since you absolutely didnt take the position that your opinion is more right than any other ... not at all.
[/sarcasm]

---

Lets start over:
We would like them to adress the fact that our character wears their armor ...
If you would not like it, your opinion was noted ... thank you, move along.


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Lets start over:
We would like them to adress the fact that our character wears their armor ...
If you would not like it, your opinion was noted ... thank you, move along.

And yet your opinion was noted and you still continue? Neat.

Let me be simple: I'm only responding to comments directed at me. I initially put forward my opinion and supported it reasonably. I pointed out that I think...

"Grr! We Gith! That our armor! We mad! We smash!"

...is a basic idea that's weak and not as creative or interesting as other ideas.

I've supported my position, and I am only responding to comments directed at me. Specifically, comments aimed at the support I've offered for my opinion.

So. If you accept that your opinion has been noted, please do move on. I assure you that I will only respond to others who direct comments toward me.

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From what I know of Githyanki lore from playing D&D for a few years now, they should react in some way. They are an extremly xenophobic race and seeing someone, who is a lesser being in their eyes, wearing one of their armors should provoke a reaction.
Lae'zel makes pretty clear, how gith see other races: underlings and servants. Therefore it is not far fetched that they would be offended by servants wearing the masters armor.
It wouldn't Chanege the encounter much, since the gith hate us anyway, but it would show, that npcs react to stuff, which makes the world more alive.


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Originally Posted by JandK
Specifically, comments aimed at the support I've offered for my opinion.
Ok here is one:

Originally Posted by JandK
An astral marketplace is *entirely* within the realms of reason.
>>
Quote
RAIDS
The central aspect of githyanki society was its culture of plunder. Their ultimate goal, under Vlaakith, was to treat all worlds of the Material Plane as the githyanki's gardens, which they could loot at will and bring the spoils to their home in the Astral Plane, where they would never have to worry about food, water, and other concerns that were considered to be beneath them.
Source: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Githyanki

Now ... a question ...
Why would race that (CANONICALY) centralize their whole society around the idea that whatever they want, they simply take ... create marketplace to earn some kind of curency? laugh


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by JandK
Specifically, comments aimed at the support I've offered for my opinion.
Ok here is one:

Originally Posted by JandK
An astral marketplace is *entirely* within the realms of reason.
>>
Quote
RAIDS
The central aspect of githyanki society was its culture of plunder. Their ultimate goal, under Vlaakith, was to treat all worlds of the Material Plane as the githyanki's gardens, which they could loot at will and bring the spoils to their home in the Astral Plane, where they would never have to worry about food, water, and other concerns that were considered to be beneath them.
Source: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Githyanki

Now ... a question ...
Why would race that (CANONICALY) centralize their whole society around the idea that whatever they want, they simply take ... create marketplace to earn some kind of curency? laugh

Because, RagnarokCzD, CANONICALY is in the box. You need to think OUTSIDE the box. Canon is dumb and boring. We don't want anything that is established. We want Larian to do whatever they feel like doing with the entire Forgotten Realms. Isn't that what we've been fighting for the entire time since the game's EA was first released? Haven't we been fighting so that Larian can do whatever they want and NOT hold true to canon or lore or rules of any kind? We don't want Larian to change anything... anything at all. The game is perfect as is. No more suggestions, people. NO more. Leave the game as is.

Gith don't act like Gith.
Vampires aren't vampires.
Harpies aren't harpies.
Intellect Devourers are dumb thug brain dogs that can't Devour Intellect.
Wood Woads don't act like Wood Woads
Mud Mephits don't act like Mud Mephits.
Goblins are not evil necessarily.
Minotaurs hulk smash
Duergar can shove you 60 feet into lava.
Ogres can throw goblins in barrels more than 100 feet through the air
Phase Spiders Super Misty Step up to thousands of feet and spit poison at you instead of Ethereal Jaunting and attacking at point blank.

So, you know what? The Gith not caring about you wearing another Gith's armor just goes right along with everything else that doesn't fit into canon Forgotten Realms.

And you people wonder why I get a bit passionate about why I want more D&D 5e rules and stats and such. It's because of this kind of thing. Once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will! Like it did Obi-wan's apprentice.

Once you start tossing out canon and lore, everything can go. So, which side are you on? Are you on the "I want more canon Forgotten Realms and therefore I want the gith to get upset if they see a non-gith wearing gith armor" or are you on the side of "I don't want canon and I want Larian to chuck whatever they want so the gith wouldn't give a flip about someone wearing their armor?"

And regardless of which side you are on, will it REALLY matter? Will Larian REALLY care, or are they going to do their own thing regardless?

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Does anyone else want to psychically collapse, or can we return to the subject?


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Does anyone else want to psychically collapse, or can we return to the subject?

lol. That's EXACTLY what that was, Ragnarok. EXACTLY. Psycho collapse about this topic. It's silly to debate this. I swear. This forum can get downright crazy at times.

Seriously, either you like the idea or you don't. Do we even really need to continue the topic?

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Well ... i would ask you the same ... but you actualy dont continue "the topic". :-/


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Now ... a question ...
Why would race that (CANONICALY) centralize their whole society around the idea that whatever they want, they simply take ... create marketplace to earn some kind of curency? laugh

This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Taking a snippet of something and creating a monolithic unswaying culture out of it.

Just to be clear, this passage is *LITERALLY* taken from the same site you linked:

Quote
"The g'lathk were most closely associated with farmers, although their main ability was to induce food growth in the Astral Plane, where nothing grew. Some channeled their psionic abilities to grow a type of fungus that required no sunlight, while others harvested an edible substance that grew only on the bodies of the god-isles. A third group cultivated plants and animals in tanks of magically treated water."

Do you see?

The Githyanki have a class that make weapons. They also have a class that makes food. Neither of those classes are as revered as the military class, but they exist.

My point is simple. People have a tendency to put things in groups. To try to label things. And they often miss the individuals for the effort. The miss the subtle nuance of civilizations, and they go with the easiest interpretation they can find.

It's like this, I remember talking to a fellow years ago. We were talking about Japan circa WW2. This fella insisted that *every* Japanese person was willing to die in a kamikaze attack because it was a matter of cultural honor.

I suggested that obviously some were, but that other people in the same culture would not. The fellow I was talking to just couldn't accept that possibility. It was a monolithic culture to him. All people acted the same within it.

The Githyanki of the military cast don't have any built in respect for the Githyanki laborers who make the armor. Maybe some Githyanki do, but culturally, they don't as a whole. Excepting Silver Swords, which are uniquely special, I seriously doubt many of the Githyanki value the armorers work enough to care who's wearing it or whether it should be appropriated on sight.

*

Let's further consider differences between creches. Lae'zel mentions the Zaethisk (spelling?) which is capable of cleansing the Githyanki. Did you know, if you play a Githyanki, that your Githyanki character has never heard of this?

The reason why is obvious. Not all creches are the same.

I think it's a mistake to assume no Githyanki trade ever. I think it's a clear mistake to bunch them all together into one big cliche.

You're welcome to think what you want.

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Originally Posted by JandK
I think it's a mistake to assume no Githyanki trade ever.

>>>

Originally Posted by JandK
and I'm saying there's no evidence for that.

wink


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A world/atmosphere breaker for sure. Use to it in BG3 at that point. Why would Larian create more cinematics for such a <trivial> thing.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by JandK
I think it's a mistake to assume no Githyanki trade ever.

>>>

Originally Posted by JandK
and I'm saying there's no evidence for that.

wink

You're making my point. Which suggests to me that you might not actually even understand my point.

The only evidence we have is that the Githyanki don't care about the armor. Instead of assuming that's a mistake, we can instead consider reasons why that might be.

One possibility is that the Githyanki trade the armor. This is within the realm of reason. We have no evidence for it, but it does explain why the Githyanki don't comment on the armor. Because they don't care. Because plenty of people wear the armor.

Another possibility is that the Military Caste of the Githyanki don't respect the lesser Caste that makes the armor. Maybe they think: if someone got a hold of this armor, obviously the smith who made it did an inferior job because it didn't protect the Githyanki who originally wore it. Thus, why reclaim it?

Another possibility is that the military branch of the Githyanki think there's so much of that armor floating around that they don't care.

Yet another possibility is that the Githyanki are simply alien in thought and can't imagine why you would care what someone else is wearing.

The point is, there are possibilities. The idea that the Githyanki would comment on the armor or attack someone over the armor is not a foregone conclusion. It's nothing more than the first obvious thought that comes to anyone's mind.

If Larian decides to go that direction, I'll accept it. I just don't think it's a particularly good idea. I think there are better, more interesting possible explanations worth considering.

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Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
A world/atmosphere breaker for sure. Use to it in BG3 at that point. Why would Larian create more cinematics for such a <trivial> thing.

You never know, they might fix it.

They had the Narrator redo some lines. It wouldn't take but a few lines for the Gith encounter.

Probably a few thousand pounds, but hey, they were willing to redo the narrator, and that wasn't even world breaking.

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A few notes on Gith:

Their largest residences were massive, lavishly decorated castles that, owing to the xenophobic nature of githyanki, were usually avoided by other creatures in the Astral Plane.

As a people, githyanki were generally proud and xenophobic. They viewed all other races with contempt[27] and were generally unwilling to learn anything about other cultures, including other languages.[14] They viewed Material Plane–dwellers as ignorant and incompetent, or, in worse cases, as potential slaves. They could only bring themselves to use magic items not of githyanki design if they were extremely powerful, and even then by rationalizing that any such items must have been designed with githyanki knowledge to begin with.

Githyanki were typically cruel, arrogant, and aggressive.

After centuries, they developed a hollow culture of shallow and unfinished undertakings, never truly mastering any task or seeing any personal project to completion. This constant interest with novelty also reflected in their dressing style: githyanki were fond of collecting and wearing extremely ornate and elaborate tokens of their defeated foes. It was common for their armor and weapons to be overly decorated with gems, feathers, precious metals, and other ostentatious ornaments.

Although they were loyal to each other, they were also fiercely individualistic.

Sounds pretty straightforward to me.

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Originally Posted by JandK
You're making my point. Which suggests to me that you might not actually even understand my point.
Nah ...
That is just my way of showing people why i concider them being hypocrite ...

The way i see this whole debate is that people seen the situation, concidered it and come with head cannon.

You disliked that their head cannon isnt supported by anything from lore ...
Concidered different aspects of situation ... and instead come with your own head cannon, wich also isnt supported by anything from lore. :-/ And then we spend A LOT of time arguing about whos headcannon is better. laugh

So the best we can do in my eyes is concider both a suggestions.
And speaking for myslef, if i would suppose to support one, it would be expanding xenophobia and arogance of gith to all their gear ... over creating some kind of trader cast that would be selling Gith crafts to lower races to earn coin they could easily take instead. laugh

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 01/03/22 08:05 AM.

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Originally Posted by JandK
"Grr! We Gith! That our armor! We mad! We smash!"

Jesus fucking christ.

I must repeat myself:
Originally Posted by Dexai
Try to have single argument not be completely made in bad faith once or twice J, I think you would find it refreshing.


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by JandK
You're making my point. Which suggests to me that you might not actually even understand my point.
Nah ...
That is just my way of showing people why i concider them being hypocrite ...

The way i see this whole debate is that people seen the situation, concidered it and come with head cannon.

You disliked that their head cannon isnt supported by anything from lore ...
Concidered different aspects of situation ... and instead come with your own head cannon, wich also isnt supported by anything from lore. :-/ And then we spend A LOT of time arguing about whos headcannon is better. laugh

So the best we can do in my eyes is concider both a suggestions.
And speaking for myslef, if i would suppose to support one, it would be expanding xenophobia and arogance of gith to all their gear ... over creating some kind of trader cast that would be selling Gith crafts to lower races to earn coin they could easily take instead. laugh

I would be insulted by the hypocrite remark, but I'm convinced too much of this is lost in translation for you.

Simply put, I've said multiple times that I'm fine with Larian going that direction. I don't think it's a good idea, but it's not my decision.

That being said, I think it's important for folks to understand that this is made-up. It's not canon. And anyone who says the Githyanki would "naturally" act this way doesn't have a clue how the Githyanki would naturally act. They have nothing more than their own speculation.

Also, for some reason, you consistently fail to address the point I've made about how some ideas *support* what currently happens in the game whereas other ideas presume a *mistake* in the scene. Like I said in an earlier post, I don't play the game looking for an ax to grind. Meaning I don't assume the scene is a mistake because it doesn't satisfy the head canon I made up.

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Originally Posted by JandK
I think it's important for folks to understand that this is made-up. It's not canon.
As it was allready told ... its a suggestion ...
Nothing is canon until it is. laugh

Originally Posted by JandK
And anyone who says the Githyanki would "naturally" act this way doesn't have a clue how the Githyanki would naturally act. They have nothing more than their own speculation.
Aswell as anyone who says they would not ...


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Aswell as anyone who says they would not ...

As I've said countless times in this thread. This comment isn't bringing any new insight. You seem to think it's an eye-opening observation? :-/

This is why I think we're not communicating very well.

Last edited by JandK; 01/03/22 10:35 AM.
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