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Vortex138 #811648 15/03/22 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Vortex138
Well, the point I was trying to make and I kind of agree with GM4Him, is that with a little imagination, yes, you can have medium armors that are not made of metal. Perhaps they need to be specially made (hint, hint, HINT!!!! Crafting! :D)
Crafting, yes. Not sure if it's still allowed in 5e, but here are some examples from old games based on previous editions:

  • In BG2, you could craft an Ankheg Plate armour, which was an equivalent of Plate Mail +1. Good option for early game, when magical armours are still unavailable.
  • In IWD2, you could commission 3 different armour types made from Boring Beetle shells (I believe it was Boring Beetle, but I might be mistaken), 1 medium and 2 heavy ones.
  • In NWN2, which is a veritable crafting paradise of all DnD CRPGs I've seen, you had the following options, apart from basic Leather:
    - Salamander Hide: +1 AC, Fire Resist 10/-, 40% weight reduction. Suitable for Leather, Studded Leather and Hide armours;
    - Umber Hulk Hide: +2 AC, Mind spells immunity, Half Plate, Breastplate and Shields. This is technically a metal equivalent, so you craft any plate-based armour as you would normally do, but use shell pieces instead of metal;
    - Wyvern Hide: +2 AC, +4 Poison saves, 20% weight reduction, Scalemail, Breastplate, Half Plate, Full Plate;
    - Red Dragon Hide: +3 AC, Fire Resist 20/-, 20% weight reduction, Scalemail, Breastplate, Half Plate.


Some of these stats don't make sense in 5e anymore, but hey, considering how frivolous Larian has been with implementing 5e so far, nothing should be off the table. It's all up to them (or the modders, if we're lucky, but Lucky is still broken afaik).

Regarding using metals in general, I think it's reasonable for Druids to shun iron and steel, as products of civilisation. However, even Druids should recognise the potential of cold iron and alchemical silver (I don't know, do we still have them in 5e?). Especially considering the nature of some of our "allies"...

Vortex138 #811649 15/03/22 10:32 AM
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5e has crafting. It is Tool Proficiencies that manage them. Solasta implements crafting fairly well. If you have the proficiency, you can make various needed items: poisoned arrows, bolts, regular arrows and bolts 0 because you don't have unlimited - daggers + 1, swords + 1, frost sword, doom Greatsword, lightbringer Greatswordm etc.

Each day you rest, you make a proficiency roll. If successful, you get a certain number of crafting points accomplished towards the completion of the item. Once you finish acquiring the points, the item's crafted.

GM4Him #811650 15/03/22 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
So, why did I think Ragnarok was talking about Chain Mail? Because clerics shouldn't be starting with Chain Shirts. Their starting gear is either Chain Mail, Scale Mail or Leather depending on what fits your cleric best.
I see ...
So, in our debate about what armor Druid should, or could wear, you presumed i was talking about Chain Mail bcs some completely different class, in completely different settings starts with it ... even tho its still completely unrelated to druids both in material, that class and armor type. :-/

Certainly fascinating twist. O_o

But i think i ... well, not exactly "understand", but at least "know" the idea behind this.
Thanks for explaining your thoughts ...


Originally Posted by GM4Him
Why would druids wear Hide and not Studded? Because most Studded Leather has metal. Hide does not.
This sounds like really weak argument ...
Both armors have to stick together somehow ... and until tooltip litteraly says that "this armor contains metal studs" and "this armor does not contain metal studs" its all just up to your fantasy and headcanon. :-/

Also ... since you like public opinions so much ... here are some:
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/bt0os1/studded_leather_for_druids/
https://www.enworld.org/threads/raw-can-druids-wear-studded-leather.657569/
https://twitter.com/chrisperkinsdnd/status/607983229287604224
https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/700147767180562432?lang=cs

Hope you find them as interesting as i did. smile

Also if you remember your statement was litteraly:
Originally Posted by GM4Him
The point of Hide Armor IS that druids have an acceptable replacement for studded leather.
I think you simply turned those armors around ...
If you would say that point of Studded Leather is that druids have acceptable replacement for Hide Armor, in wich they usualy start ... that would make perfect sence!

But why and even how would any Druid "replace" Studded Leather with Hide Armor ... i still have no idea. :-/
And no, no talking about studs helps you here ... since if that druids "replaces it" (to use your own words) it means he was using it allready ... and therefore there clearly are not any metal studs, since druids do not wear metal armor ... ever. wink


Originally Posted by GM4Him
Why is cost important even if not buying? Because you can sell more expensive armor and keep stuff that isn't as expensive if it offers the same or almost the same protection.
Indeed ...
But we were not talking about items that offers the same protection, did we? smile


Originally Posted by GM4Him
But what about Githyanki and Dwarf Wizards? Why limit Druids to no metal but not limit Githyanki and Dwarf Wizards?
Dunno ... it was your argument that Druids should not have high AC bcs they are casters, not fighters ...
(Quote: "The point of limiting druids like this is that they are spellcasters, not fighters.")

Githyanki and Dwarf Wizards are also casters. laugh


Originally Posted by GM4Him
Last I checked, Dwarves don't get armor proficiency based on race
Check again. smile

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Originally Posted by GM4Him
, nor do they get Shield proficiency, so I'm not sure what you mean by this. Last I checked, Githyanki get Light and Medium Armor proficiencies, but also not Shields.
This is true ...
Even tho there allready ben some complains about "Shield" Dwarves who dont have Shield proficiency and (as you often say) "most people around here" agreed on that Shield proficiency should be included with Medium Armor. wink

So ... that may be just song of future. smile

I could (and probably should) have ben more clear about it tho, that much is true.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
So, unlimit druids so they can wear any armor and what do you get? A spellcaster with high damage spells who can heal, be a tank, turn into an animal and gain extra HP, and who can get up close and deal a lot of damage in close range combat. Limit their armor and suddenly druids are forced to support rather than be the have-all-be-all. If all they get is a max of 14 AC for armor because they won't wear anything with metal, suddenly, druids ain't so quick to run up close and be the focus of every enemy's attention. If they have a shield, sure, they might get to 16 AC, and that's pretty good, but it's still not something like 18-20 like you can get with fighters, clerics, paladins and the like. They might even be high dex druids wearing Leather instead, but it still limits their AC to roughly 16 or 17 at the most.

THAT is why they should be limited.
I really cant shake the feeling that you didnt actualy play the druid ...
You are talking about that they have "high damage spells, and heals" ... but you seem to forget that once you do one, you cant quite fully use the other, since you just used the resource that both option use. (Yup, spellslots.) :-/
You are talking about that they "can be a tank, and can turn into animal to gain extra HP" ... but you seem to forget that once you turn into animal, you get that animal AC no matter what YOU are wearing (shield included) so once again, you need to choose wich of those options you want to use.

Sure Druids are extremely versatile since they can basicaly do anything ... but anything is not everything. :-/

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 15/03/22 10:54 AM.

Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
Vortex138 #811651 15/03/22 11:17 AM
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I support these ideas, especially the 5 man party idea!
As someone who plans to play a Sorcerer at release, I'm very unhappy with 4 man party.
I share the balanced party approach posted by OP and would like to have:
- an arcane caster (Sorcerer is unfortunately too limited on spell selection to cover all arcane magic versatility that could be needed), so Gale.
- a tank / bruiser to hold the frontline, so Lae'zel or the currently unreleased supposedly Paladin companion
- a divine magic healer to cover buffs / healing / divine magic tools in general, so Shadowheart
- a single target dd who can quickly dispatch of key targets, so Wyll / Astarion. Even though Sorcerer himself can fill this role with his Metamagic boosts or being a Sorlock, what if I find a magic resistant key enemy who needs to be killed ASAP, what is then?
The problem is that I have only 3 free slots and need to drop one of these party members, which feels very unpleasant.
So, 5 man party would have been much better.

Last edited by Volsalex; 15/03/22 11:24 AM.
Vortex138 #811656 15/03/22 02:36 PM
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@RagnarokCzD

I even said I'm on the fence on the druid thing. I'd lean towards restricting so that Hide Armor actually has purpose. Otherwise, it's pretty much junk armor.

The entire purpose of Hide armor IS Druid. If you let Druids use Studded Leather or Chain or Scale, Hide is meaningless. It IS 100% Druid related. I didn't make this up. It's a D&D thing. No one who can use Studded Leather would pick Hide instead unless for some reason they couldn't acquire Studded Leather.

Look at the entire design of Hide armor. Made of animal skins and furs and such. No other class would care for such armor.

So, my point was that either restrict the class to certain armors or get rid of Hide. It's totally unnecessary in the game unless you restrict Druids.

And I'm not the one to restrict Studded Leather. Many people feel it is metal related, but again I said that some don't restrict it. But again, if you don't, and a Druid can have Studded Leather instead, why take Hide over Studded? So, again, I'm inclined to restrict so Hide at least has some purpose.

As for Shield Dwarves, yeah, I forgot they put a Homebrew subclass in BG3. Most common dwarf subraces are Hill and Mountain with Duergar next in line.

Shield Dwarves gaining Shield proficiency is supposed to replace the typical Dwarven Weapon Proficiency, if I recall. It's not supposed to be on top of everything else. I also don't remember seeing that Shield Dwarves are supposed to get Light or Medium Armor Proficiency. I believe that is another Larian Homebrew. So, I'm not talking homebrew because lots of Larian homebrew offsets the balance of D&D.

Last edited by GM4Him; 15/03/22 02:42 PM.
GM4Him #811663 15/03/22 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Look at the entire design of Hide armor. Made of animal skins and furs and such. No other class would care for such armor.
Barbarian?

Barbarians can wear Medium armor without any restriction ...
The only armor that strips them from their Class abilities is Heavy. wink

And they look quite well in it. :3

I hear quite often that Barbarians are "not suppose to wear armor" ... but i dont think its true.
They more like just "dont neeed to wear armor" and only if their stats will support such build. smile

Sure, once you reach level 20 and get +4 to your Str and Con ... while your cap also raise to 24 ...
That is some SERIOUS competition for Medium Armors (What would you need to wear anyway? 17AC? +2 Half-Plate? ... or even more if your Dex score is higher than 14, that sounds almost impossible to beat. laugh ) ... but thats something we both know (presume?) its not going to happen in this game. frown
(Even tho i still think that we should get some "max level" bonus for pure classes. :P So quite honestly i would not mind at all if they would simply take theese bonuses and move them from level 20 to whatever level will be max.)

Originally Posted by GM4Him
So, my point was that either restrict the class to certain armors or get rid of Hide. It's totally unnecessary in the game unless you restrict Druids.
Or they can simply boost its AC a little so it gets to same value as Scale Mail ...

That way Barbarians and Druids would get an alternative providing them the same protection as the armor they are wearing right now ... while fitting them much better both in immersion and style aspect. smile


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
Vortex138 #811729 16/03/22 02:44 AM
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Why would a barbarian wear Hide armor?

12 + Dex (max 2)

Versus Unarmored Defense of 10 + Dex + Con.

Let's say you're a Barbarian with Dex 2 and Con 0. Okay. Yeah. Sure. Makes sense to wear Hide... But you could wear Scale or Half Plate or whatever other Medium Armor that provides better protection.

No. Barbarians almost always have high Con. So, without armor, they're almost always going to have at least 12 AC even if their Dex is 0; usually 13 with Dex 0. So, right away, equal to or better than Hide.

As for boosting the AC. Sure. Why not? Everything else is out the window. Why not also include flying poodles in the game? Like in the movie UHF. "Today, we're going to teach poodles how to fly."

Hide is low on purpose, Ragnarok, and it's made for druids on purpose. That's D&D. Each class has it's quirks and limits to balance them. Give druids the ability to wear armor like scale and half plate and you make things like Hide worthless.

Am I gonna cry if they chuck Hide? Nope.

GM4Him #811733 16/03/22 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Right. Again, subject to interpretation. "Will not" could mean that if you do, you are not a druid anymore. Like it was said, if you eat meat, you aren't really a vegan anymore. So, if you are a druid and wear metal, you aren't a druid anymore.

I linked the interpretation of Wizards of the Coast on the issue. So RAI is clearly known.

GM4Him #811746 16/03/22 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Why would a barbarian wear Hide armor?
I told you ... bcs it looks good. wink
Have you seen Barbarian in any other armor? Ugh. :-/

Originally Posted by GM4Him
12 + Dex (max 2)

Versus Unarmored Defense of 10 + Dex + Con.
*13 + Dex
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/The+Oak+Father's+Embrace :P wink

Originally Posted by GM4Him
But you could wear Scale or Half Plate or whatever other Medium Armor that provides better protection.
If you have it. laugh
And that is exactly why i said they could adjust AC of Hide, to match Scale. >> Same protection, much better style. :P

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Barbarians almost always have high Con.
This may come as a surprise to you ...
But Barbarians have as much Con as you (as their player) give them ... meaning anything between 8 and 15. wink laugh

Sure they are "suppose to" ... but that is once again, different topic ...
There is nothing in the heaven, or hell, or anything in between forcing us to make effective characters. :P

Originally Posted by GM4Him
As for boosting the AC. Sure. Why not?
Exactly ...
Since you are aginst it, i would like to hear at least single reason except "its not suppose to be that way". laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Why not also include flying poodles in the game? Like in the movie UHF. "Today, we're going to teach poodles how to fly."
That is easy question. smile
Bcs its bullshit you just made up to dementate the argument ... cute effort, but its not going to work on me, so either react on asked question or spare yourself the awkwardness and simply ignore it. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Hide is low on purpose, Ragnarok, and it's made for druids on purpose.
Yes and that purpose is named "starting gear" ...
If you played DnD at least once i believe you heard about it ...

I also believe that you allready noticed that they "do not" start in Hide armor in this game ... so that purpose is void.
I also believe that you allready noticed that while hide armor "properly provides" 12AC ... several armors in this game provide exactly same protection while not limiting Dex bonus:
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Drowish+Studded+Leather+Armour
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Drow+Studded+Leather+Armour
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Leather+Armour++1
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Studded+Leather+Armour
+ Armor from Minthara wich for some reason still isnt on this side. -_-

And they all are very easily accesible for player ... so why exactly would any player wear Hide Armor "purposely created for his druid" instead of litteraly any other from this list? laugh
Note that except Leather Armour +1, wich is sold by FIRST VENDOR YOU MEET they all are obtained by simply picking container. laugh

So the question stands ... what purpose is left for Hide armor in THIS GAME (read again THIS GAME, meaning NOT TABLETOP DnD ... read again NOT TABLETOP DnD) ?

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Give druids the ability to wear armor like scale and half plate and you make things like Hide worthless.
Open your eyes, hide IS worthless right now. laugh

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Am I gonna cry if they chuck Hide? Nope.
But you will if they make it actualy usefull? laugh


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
Vortex138 #811761 16/03/22 08:42 AM
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OMG. Whatever Rags.

Last edited by GM4Him; 16/03/22 08:42 AM.
Vortex138 #811763 16/03/22 09:11 AM
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I see


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
GM4Him #811765 16/03/22 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Why would a barbarian wear Hide armor?

12 + Dex (max 2)

Versus Unarmored Defense of 10 + Dex + Con.

Let's say you're a Barbarian with Dex 2 and Con 0. Okay. Yeah. Sure. Makes sense to wear Hide... But you could wear Scale or Half Plate or whatever other Medium Armor that provides better protection.

No. Barbarians almost always have high Con. So, without armor, they're almost always going to have at least 12 AC even if their Dex is 0; usually 13 with Dex 0. So, right away, equal to or better than Hide.

As for boosting the AC. Sure. Why not? Everything else is out the window. Why not also include flying poodles in the game? Like in the movie UHF. "Today, we're going to teach poodles how to fly."

Hide is low on purpose, Ragnarok, and it's made for druids on purpose. That's D&D. Each class has it's quirks and limits to balance them. Give druids the ability to wear armor like scale and half plate and you make things like Hide worthless.

Am I gonna cry if they chuck Hide? Nope.
Most of my barbarians are always unarmoured, it just makes more sense but I am an avid 5e player so I always stat with con. Maybe they will start to add some cool unarmoured clothes options. In regards to the likes of hide armor, I agree that hide is pretty low on purpose in the game.


Now where's my pet Goblin?
Vortex138 #811817 16/03/22 08:28 PM
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Lol! I think we got off my original topic. :P My suggestion was for the gauntlets, boots, etc. I do believe different variants could be made that affect different stats or skill roles. What I found interesting is the "Metal Gauntlets" being light armor instead of medium or heavy.

I believe you can play the game as you wish. smile However, I don't want to be forced to use heavy armor on a druid simply because that would make the druid not viable in the game. (I.E. Oh, you can play a druid, but to be affective, you HAVE to have splint or scale mail, and of course, you HAVE to get heavy armor proficiency at lvl 4 or you will fail) That kind of things. I always like options. smile Again, perhaps have medium armors made specifically for a druid, but can only be found in certain places. Can you wear metal armor, sure and you will find that earlier, but if you don't then you can go "here" and get the non metal varieties. That kind of thing.

Vortex138 #811819 16/03/22 08:39 PM
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Personally I would prefer if Hide was the best armor for druids to begin with, and they might get magical hide or dragon scale or ankheg plate or whatever later. Let’s not forget WotC prefer if druids don’t use metal armor, even if it’s not a hard rule. Druids also have wild shape to help them tank with effectively temp hp, and they also have Barkskin - which is redundant if you’re running around in half plate.



Feel free to steal my profile pic if you feel the same way. Let's show some solidarity.
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Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Personally I would prefer if Hide was the best armor for druids to begin with, and they might get magical hide or dragon scale or ankheg plate or whatever later. Let’s not forget WotC prefer if druids don’t use metal armor, even if it’s not a hard rule. Druids also have wild shape to help them tank with effectively temp hp, and they also have Barkskin - which is redundant if you’re running around in half plate.

Exactly.

Vortex138 #811837 17/03/22 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Vortex138
Lol! I think we got off my original topic. :P My suggestion was for the gauntlets, boots, etc. I do believe different variants could be made that affect different stats or skill roles. What I found interesting is the "Metal Gauntlets" being light armor instead of medium or heavy.

I believe you can play the game as you wish. smile However, I don't want to be forced to use heavy armor on a druid simply because that would make the druid not viable in the game. (I.E. Oh, you can play a druid, but to be affective, you HAVE to have splint or scale mail, and of course, you HAVE to get heavy armor proficiency at lvl 4 or you will fail) That kind of things. I always like options. smile Again, perhaps have medium armors made specifically for a druid, but can only be found in certain places. Can you wear metal armor, sure and you will find that earlier, but if you don't then you can go "here" and get the non metal varieties. That kind of thing.

Gauntlets, boots, etc shouldn't be "armor" at all. They aren't in 5e. This is yet more homebrewing by Larian in the first place.

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Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Personally I would prefer if Hide was the best armor for druids to begin with, and they might get magical hide or dragon scale or ankheg plate or whatever later. Let’s not forget WotC prefer if druids don’t use metal armor, even if it’s not a hard rule. Druids also have wild shape to help them tank with effectively temp hp, and they also have Barkskin - which is redundant if you’re running around in half plate.

As long as you're not forgetting WotC's preference, they consider studded leather to be druid appropriate armor.

WebSpyder #811857 17/03/22 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by WebSpyder
Originally Posted by Vortex138
Lol! I think we got off my original topic. :P My suggestion was for the gauntlets, boots, etc. I do believe different variants could be made that affect different stats or skill roles. What I found interesting is the "Metal Gauntlets" being light armor instead of medium or heavy.

I believe you can play the game as you wish. smile However, I don't want to be forced to use heavy armor on a druid simply because that would make the druid not viable in the game. (I.E. Oh, you can play a druid, but to be affective, you HAVE to have splint or scale mail, and of course, you HAVE to get heavy armor proficiency at lvl 4 or you will fail) That kind of things. I always like options. smile Again, perhaps have medium armors made specifically for a druid, but can only be found in certain places. Can you wear metal armor, sure and you will find that earlier, but if you don't then you can go "here" and get the non metal varieties. That kind of thing.

Gauntlets, boots, etc shouldn't be "armor" at all. They aren't in 5e. This is yet more homebrewing by Larian in the first place.

Agreed with both ...
Larian if you want to give item any property then either do that properly and make it count (as forbiding Wizards to wear metaluc gauntlets and boots since they curentky ARE armor no matter if they shpuld or not) ... or dont do it at all!


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by WebSpyder
Originally Posted by Vortex138
Lol! I think we got off my original topic. :P My suggestion was for the gauntlets, boots, etc. I do believe different variants could be made that affect different stats or skill roles. What I found interesting is the "Metal Gauntlets" being light armor instead of medium or heavy.

I believe you can play the game as you wish. smile However, I don't want to be forced to use heavy armor on a druid simply because that would make the druid not viable in the game. (I.E. Oh, you can play a druid, but to be affective, you HAVE to have splint or scale mail, and of course, you HAVE to get heavy armor proficiency at lvl 4 or you will fail) That kind of things. I always like options. smile Again, perhaps have medium armors made specifically for a druid, but can only be found in certain places. Can you wear metal armor, sure and you will find that earlier, but if you don't then you can go "here" and get the non metal varieties. That kind of thing.

Gauntlets, boots, etc shouldn't be "armor" at all. They aren't in 5e. This is yet more homebrewing by Larian in the first place.

Agreed. Gauntlets, helmets, etc. should be a part of an armor set - not extras that even wizards can wear.

I was working on the mechanics for my own RPG, and I was dealing with this kind of thing. What I was doing was planning on having critical hit protection. You succeed in hitting by X number, you get a critical hit. Each piece of armor you add protects against this. Helmet adds 2 points of critical hit protection. Gauntlets 2. Boots 2. Breast and back are the main armor so no CHP there. Just the accessories. Have all the accessories and enemies can only score a Crit if they roll super high. So, need a 12 or higher to hit? Crit is 13-20. Wearing helmet? Crit is 15-20. Add gauntlets? 17-20. Add boots. 19-20. Something like that.

That'd be pretty darn hard to do, though, in a game like this where Nat 20 is the only way to Crit.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by WebSpyder
Gauntlets, boots, etc shouldn't be "armor" at all. They aren't in 5e. This is yet more homebrewing by Larian in the first place.

Agreed. Gauntlets, helmets, etc. should be a part of an armor set - not extras that even wizards can wear.
To be fair, there is precedent in D&D (3.5e) for body-specific gear, as well as in many crpgs. It's not necessarily a bad thing on it's own. Care just has to be taken to
a.) not overwhelm the player with constant managing of equipment slots as gear gets incrementally better throughout the game
b.) balance the helment/gauntlets/boots/rings/etc with the rest of the game mechanics/character abilities/enemy strength

...unfortunately I don't have much faith in Larian to do a or b, let alone both, so in that case they should stick to 5e RAW.

I agree with OP that, at the very least, metal gauntlets/boots/helmets should be Heavy Armor, with appropriate restrictions and bonuses. Light leather or cloth gear could be light armor with different bonuses, etc.

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