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It also creates opourtunity for great gaming experience:

*hit*
potion
*hit*
potion
*hit*
potion
*hit*
potion
*hit*
potion
*hit*
potion
*hit*
potion
...

Allready feeling the fun! ^_^

THAT is why you have other members in a party. It's TEAM-based. Your fighter is up close and personal, with high AC of 17 or 18. So, they're dealing damage here and there and getting hit here and there. Their HP gets reduced to 10 or less. Cleric casts Healing Word and heals them 8 HP. Back up to 18 so the fighter keeps going. That's RAW 5e. The team works together. The fighter isn't solo-ing the enemies. He's playing a role in a team working together to defeat them. The cleric's role is to do some damage, buff allies and heal them (speaking in generalities for clerics). Clerics make it so that fighters and other classes can keep attacking regularly, so they don't have to hit, potion, hit, potion. That's the point.

BG3. Fighter is up close and personal with high AC of 17 or 18. Gets hit. Second Wind. Attacks in return. Gets hit twice. Fighter needs some health. Potion and attacks. Fighter takes two more hits. Hmmm. HP is now roughly around 10. Superior Healing Potion and heals up to 20 HP and Attacks again. Gets hit 3 more times. Down to 5 HP. Superior Healing Potion back up to 15 and Attacks again. No cleric necessary. Just keep stocked on potions and Fighter wins without needing your healer.

So, is that somehow MORE fun? There's no strategy or thinking involved. Wash, rinse and repeat. Just run up as a fighter or barbarian and bash the crap out of your opponents without fear of getting hurt because you can Bonus action a Potion every round if you need to.

Again, that by itself, however, isn't that broken. It's adding that to everything else that's homebrewed that makes it extreme. I'm not opposed to something like Bonus Action Potions if that's the homebrew they decide makes the most sense for the game. It's the Bonus Action Potions + Cure Wounds from clerics + Healing Word as well from clerics + allies being able to throw potions all in the same round.

Whenever you make a homebrew, you have to be so careful. There are reasons for every rule. If you allow Bonus Action Potions, then fine. Fast Hands isn't great for rogues. They can live with that. Don't suddenly give rogues another Bonus Action so they can Dash as an Action, Dash as a Bonus action and Dash a third time as another Bonus action - or allow them to Attack once with Sneak Attack as a primary attack, Attack again with the off hand as a Bonus Action and then attack a third time as a Bonus Action, so that the Rogue is dealing 2d6+2 (shortsword) damage for their main attack, 1d6 for second attack (shortsword), and another 1d6 for a third attack for a potential total of 4d6+2 in a single round - while the fighter attacks once per turn with 2d6+3 damage only. Fighter doing half damage that a rogue can do? What? Come on now.

Now, now ... i never said that is single character, that is once again your own interpretation. :P
The situation could be just the same if you fight at least semi-inteligent creatures, who understands that keep attacking that armored dude in front, while the second dude keeps healing him will probably not work well ... and some of them, who posses the ranged attacks starts to attack rest of your "team". :P


The only difference i see is that in your model it works for Clerics like they have static role that dont change much ...

While in Larian version they have choices, you can use your cleric as a healer, buffer and tank (if he wants to) ... but you also can use your potions from time to time and unless its cruicial your Cleric can do that one sweet thing that usualy players enjoys the most: Massacring hordes of enemies.


Yup, he "can" thats the point.
Options ... so 1/4 of your party isnt necesarily reserved for dedicated healer ... yet he is usefull, since if that Fighter gets not "two hits" but "seven hits" potion is no longer enough.


Yes.

You want wait and heal > you can.
You want go and fight > you can.
You want support peoples effort > you can.
You want screw your party and go do something entirely different > you can.

That is charm of possibilibites.


Dont make me laugh.
(Oh, too late.)

Or you know what?
Please do ...
Tell me how "strategical" and "full of thinking" is your precious example ... where your Fighter or Barbarian runs up and bash the crap out of your oponents without fear of getting hurt ... because instead of lame, stupid, boring and nontactical possibility to sip single potion ... they have pro, brilliant, entertaining and totally tactical Cleric, that will heal them even better (bcs he have more spells, bcs some of those spells can on the contrary of the potion target them both, bcs those spells can heal them during the time between their turns when they are helpess)?

I litteraly beg you, elighten me ... what deep tactics are you talking about?


Have you even tryed it in practice?
At least once?

Yes, your character becomed imortal for litteraly single round ... and you also just wasted 3 potions and 2 spellslots to ensure you dont change anything.
What is the point of that?
What would be the outcome of such behaviour?
After the round is finished ... your enemies end up just as healthy as they were previous round and gues what? They WILL attack you again.
Will you just spend yout turns healing each other eternaly until you run out of potions and inevidibly die?

Then you can save some time and reload it right now.

See thats the reason some of us concider this argument to be so false ...
Honestly:
- i would welcome if throwed potions healing would be split in half, since half of the healing liquid has ben spiled instead of digested ... but lets say nat 20 would avoid this, so there is some fun ...
- i would welcome if throwed potions would also give their target damage, bcs the vial dont dissapear, it still throwed projectile ... i would not even mind if there would me small (nat 1 for example) chance to cause 1 turn long bleeding effect, for the obvious reasons ...
- i would totally welcome if "missed" potion would be just wasted without ANY healing effect ... leaving only small amount of damage ... so there is some risk involved
- and finaly i would totally welcome if our target would have to spend his reaction to catch the potion and drink it ... and if this would be allowed only after everything abowe would go well ...

But claiming that "throwing potions is incredibly OP and effective tactics that reduce meaning of any other healing class to zero"? Please ... even you cant believe that ... -_-

Agreed >> https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=809477#Post809477

Yes, come on now GM4Him. The actual combat cycle for a party in BG3 is:

Fighter attacks and drinks a potion
Enemy attacks the fighter
Druid throws a potion at the fighter then attempts to shove an enemy away from them
Barbarian automatically throws an enemy into another enemy
Cleric throws a potion at the fighter then attempts to shove an enemy off a cliff
Repeat

LMFAO that is so relatable mrfuji3... having said that, I did have a lot of fun last night killing the queen spider by throwing her babies at her

You are acting like AC doesn't exist. Attacks aren't automatic hits.

5e. Fighter and cleric, level 1, facing 4 goblins. Fighter has choice. Rush and attack at close range or attack at long. What is cleric's options? Rush and attack at close range or attack at long or buff them both with Bless. Hmmm. Cleric actually has more than I'm just a healer option.

Both rush forward. Both have AC 17. Fighter moves and attacks. Deals 1d8+2 damage. Goblin 1 has 3 HP left. Cleric moves and attacks Goblin 2. Misses. Goblins attack. Wow!. Let's say lucky round for goblins. 2 hit the fighter. They do 8 damage. DANG! Level 1 fighter is hurting. 2 HP left.

Round 2. Fighter has a choice. Potion or fight. He's got a good chance of not being hit again. 17 or higher is actually hard to do. He chances it. Fighter swings and hits, risking it. Goblin 1 dies. Cleric's turn. Should he use Cure Wounds or Healing Word to help the fighter. If Cure Wounds, more effective but no attack then. Uses Healing Word so he can still attack. Heals 6 HP. Ah. Now he has 8 HP. He swings and hits. 4 damage. Goblins attack, teaming up on fighter. They all miss.

Round 3. Both fighter and cleric attack. Miss. Goblins attack. Fighter is down. Cleric remains.

Round 4. Cleric uses Healing Word and heals 9 HP. Fighter has lost his turn. Goblins attack and miss.

Round 5. Fighter hits. Cleric swings and misses. Goblins attack and miss.

Round 6. Fighter hits. Goblin dies. Cleric hits. Goblin dies. Goblin hits cleric. Cleric has 1 HP.

Round 7. Fighter attacks. Misses. Cleric drinks potion. Heals 5 HP. Dang, that was close. No attack because potion is Action. Goblin swings and hits. Cleric down to 1 HP.

Round 8. Fighter hits. Cleric has choice. Heal or attack. Should he risk it? What strategy should he use? How many potions does he have? He goes for it and finishes off the goblin. Dang! That was close.

Excitement. Risk. Strategy. Near death.

Now. BG3 version.

Round 1. Same as above. Round 2. Fighter uses potion to heal as Bonus. 5 HP restored. Attacks. Hits. Kills Goblin 1. No brainer. Got like 6 potions. Why not? Cleric doesn't need to heal. Well, guess he'll attack. Bonus is free. Why not Shield of Faith it. He sees goblins are attacking fighter, so he casts in on Fighter. AC is now 19. He swings and hits goblin. 4 damage. Goblins attack, teaming up on fighter. They all miss.

Round 3. Both fighter and cleric attack. Miss. Goblins attack. Cleric is down. Fighter remains.

Round 4. Fighter throws potion and heals cleric 4 HP. He then uses his sword's pommel attack, which is a Bonus. Cleric uses potion as Bonus and is full health and then attacks. Goblin dies.

Round 5. Fighter hits. Cleric uses Bless. Goblins attack and miss.

Round 6. Fighter hits. Goblin dies. Cleric hits. Goblin dies. Thanks cleric for the buff. Battle ends.

In 5e, both cleric and the fighter had some rough choices at various times.

BG3, hardly a concerning fight. Not much risk involved.

I wonder why BG-3 Cleric is the only one who even tho its in "no brainer" group can use buff spell to incerase AC of his fighter, to ensure his survival. O_o

But no matter, you described us one possible scenario ...
We can continue in the topic, after you finish all those billions possible permutations.

Let's do another scenario to illustrate the difference between Level 1 and Level 6:

5e. Life Cleric, Fighter, Mage, Rogue versus 4 phase spiders.

Round 1 - Phase spider wins initiative. Ethereal Jaunt. Unseen in Ethereal Plane - Like invisible only more effective - it moves closer to party using Dash so it can go 60 feet. Mage is next. Geez. Phase spiders are 180 feet away. Out of range. Still, he casts Misty Step, moving 30 feet closer, and moves 30 more feet so he can get closer so next round he can cast Fireball - hopefully. Fighter is next. She moves 30 and uses longbow... because it has range of 150. She shoots and hits Phase Spider 2. Uses Menacing Attack. Does 8 damage (1d8 for longbow and 1d8 for Menacing Attack +2). Phase spider resists fear. Fires again and misses (gets 2nd attack because at level 5 fighters get another attack). Rogue is next. Moves 30 and drops into hiding behind a rock. Can't hit with shortbow (assuming since it's a video game that we'll stick with main ranged weapon ranges as opposed to extended Disadvantage applies ranges). He readies a Ranged Attack (hoping they add Readying actions like Solasta has so that if an enemy moves within range he gets to use his reaction to attack automatically. This isn't hard, guys. Xcom has Overwatch. It'd be not much different). Phase Spider 2 goes. Ethereal Jaunt. Phase 3 goes. Ethereal Jaunt. Cleric goes. Moves 30 and casts Bless on himself, Fighter and Rogue. Phase 4 Ethereal Jaunt. So, after 1 round, very minor damage done to spiders. No damage to party. Let's just stop combat there and compare to BG3.

BG3.
Round 1 - Phase spider wins initiative. Ethereal Jaunt across board to be right on top of characters. Spits on everyone in the party with poison and does 6 to Fighter, 10 to Cleric, 12 to Rogue and 11 to Mage. Mage is next. Misty Step 30 feet and moves another 30 to get into range. Casts Fireball on 3 remaining phase spiders. Ew. Only rolls 16. Kinda low damage for Fireball. Two phase spiders, however, fail the save. So 16 off each. Half dead in one hit. One succeeds and only loses 8. Quarter dead. Fighter is next. She just uses her Everburn Blade at close range with Phase spider 1 and Menacing Attack. First attack hits. Second misses. Deals 21 damage (2d6+1d4 fire+1d8 Menacing Attack). Reduces Phase 1 to 11 HP. Rogue is next. Moves up to Phase 1 and attacks with main hand. Misses. Attacks with off hand with Sneak Attack and hits with shortsword. 4d6+4 damage (he has 18 dex). 19 damage. Phase 1 is dead. Has Fast Hands. Moves into hiding because has another Bonus action. Phase Spider 2 goes. Ethereal Jaunt across board onto Mage. Attacks. Hits. 1d10+2+4d8 damage (resist with DC 11 Con). Rolls 8+17 poison. Mage resists and takes half, so 16 HP lost. Mage has 23 remaining. Phase 3 goes. Ethereal Jaunt onto Mage. Attacks. Hits. Mage fails to resist. 24 damage. Mage is down. ("Well, THAT sucks," says the Mage player. "I was 120 feet away and they ported right on me and took me down. At least I got a Fireball in.") Cleric goes. ("Don't worry, Mage. I'll get you back up.") Moves 30 feet. Throws Superior Potion. Heals 14 HP. Mage is back up. Casts Healing Word at Level 3. 3d4+5 healing. 11 more HP. Mage is back up to 25 HP. ("Kiss my butt, phase spiders.") Well, no Bless for you, Fighter and Rogue, Mr. Cleric. You spent your round boosting Mage's health to 25 HP. Phase 4 Ethereal Jaunt right on top of Mage. Hits. 12 HP off. Pshew. Mage got lucky. Phase 4 rolled low and he resisted the poison. 13 HP remaining.

So, after 1 round, major damage done to both sides. Very volatile. Mage was taken down and brought back up (which, by the way, negates one of the phase spiders' poison traits which states that once you reach 0 HP, you are poisoned but stable for 1 hour, even after regaining hit points, and would therefore be paralyzed while poisoned in this way. Meaning, the Cleric would not only have to run up and heal the Mage, but he'd also have to use Lesser Restoration to get him back into the action. Ah! What? A use for Lesser Restoration? No! Say it ain't so. Well, that would certainly make the cleric that much more vital, wouldn't it?) Anyway. All 4 phase spiders are more than half dead in a single round, and one IS dead. And what, exactly, were the strats used? Fighter. Move and attack twice with Menacing Attack. OK. Not exactly big strats, but neither is moving and shooting a bow twice. So, not much different. Rogue. Move and attack twice with melee. So, pretty much the same as fighter. No drop into hiding. No readying an attack in case a phase spider appears. Just move and attack twice. I suppose he could have done something different, but why would he? Phase Spider is right there. Run up and hit twice, at least hitting once with Sneak Attack. Mage. Misty Step and Fireball. Well, now that's major. Talk about an OP strat. Now 3 out of the 4 spiders are half dead. Cleric? Poor Cleric. The super volatile nature of the game allowed 2 phase spiders to pounce on the mage and take him down. Time to bring him back online. Hurl a potion and cast a spell and he's gone from 0 to 25 HP. This prevents him from being dropped when the 3rd phase spider pounces on him.

Now let's see how round 2 goes:

5e. Phase 1 is still alive in the Ethereal Plane. He moves another 60 feet towards party. Mage gets nervous. He knows that they are likely moving at 60 feet per round. So, he can calculate that Phase 1 has likely moved 120 feet. That means that he's still in an okay position for one more round, but the spiders will likely pounce on him next turn. No matter. Let them come. This gives him a round to cast Mirror Image. Now they'll have a MUCH harder time to hit him with DC 12. According to 5e rules, even if they hit, he gets to roll a d20. With 3 duplicates, he only needs a 6 or higher to transfer the attack onto one of his duplicates. That's a pretty significant chance. With 2 Duplicates, if he rolls an 8 or higher, the attack strikes a duplicate. With 1, the attack strikes a duplicate at 11 or higher. So, it's like he has minions that he can transfer the attack to, and each minion gets an AC of their own (10+Dex, so in this case 12). But even, let's say, we use Larian's simplified version. Each enemy gets a Disadvantage to hit him until all three of the duplicates are destroyed. Still a rather good chance that he will avoid getting hit. Mage is basically using himself as bait to lure out the spiders and buffing his defenses while doing so. ("Come to me, my pretties.") Fighter is next. Moves 30 feet and readies a ranged attack with the longbow. Rogue remains in hiding. Readies an attack with shortbow. Phase spiders move. Cleric moves 30 feet towards mage. Casts Spiritual Weapon and places it near the Mage. Makes it look like a hammer. Last phase spider moves. Quick round, actually. Most didn't do much, but they were preparing, strategically, for when the phase spiders will appear.

Round 3 - Phase 1 runs 60 feet up and is now in range. Waits. Mage casts Mage Armor, adding 3 to his AC, going from 12 to 15. Ah! Much harder to hit. Again, "Let them come." Fighter is next. Moves up to Mage. Switches to sword. Readies an attack. Rogue again readies an attack. Rest of the spiders move. Cleric joins Fighter and Mage. Readies an attack. Last phase spider moves.

Round 4 - Phase 1 Ethereal Jaunts and returns to the material plane. Fighter, Rogue and Cleric readied action triggered. Whoa! I just rolled it. 2 Nat 20s and a 19 total. 3 hits. Fighter deals 15 damage (2d8+2 with Crit). Rogue deals 13 (2d6+4 with Crit). Cleric deals 4 (1d6+2 without Crit). Total damage done to phase spider is 32. Killed Phase 1. Why? Strats. Reaction expended for all 3. Mage's turn. Hmmm. That was pretty effective. Should he change strat? Chances are, the spiders will come up to the Cleric and Fighter now if he falls back. However, he just buffed his defense pretty good. What if, instead of using Fireball, like he was planning, he uses Thunderwave Not as much damage, but the last 3 spiders would likely pop up on them right next to one another another, lining up with the Cleric, Fighter and Mage who are in a line. He could hit them all with one spell. Ah, but if he readies the Thunderwave, the first phase spider that appears will be the one to trigger it, so he would not hit them all, just the one who appeared. He might want to use a spell that would be more solo-enemy based. Well, he considers Fire Bolt because at level 6 it deals 2d10 damage. So, why not? Oh. Wait. When it appears, it will be in melee range. He'll get Disadvantage to hit because it's on top of him. Shocking Grasp it is. That's fine. It does 2d8 at level 6. That's pretty good. So, he is about to ready Shocking Grasp. Fighter readies attack. Rogue hides again with Expertise and succeeds. Readies an attack. (But, you might say, how can they do that? They already used their Reaction, right? Nope. They used LAST round's Reaction. As long as they use their Readied Action before their next turn, it is the previous round's Reaction that is used, not the current round's. Phase Spider 2 appears. Wizard uses Shocking Grasp, Fighter attacks with sword. Rogue fires bow. Mage hits with a 20 total. Fighter misses with a 9 total. Rogue hits with a 22 total. Mage does 8 damage. Rogue does 7. Good strats, but definitely not as lucky this time. Only 15 off because no one got a crit while previously 2 people got crits. So, phase spider is down to 17 HP. Phase 2 now attacks Mage. Rolls 15 total and hits. BUT, Mage rolls a 14 and transfers the attack onto one of his duplicates. Duplicate disappears. Phase 3 appears. All readied actions are finished. Phase 3 attacks mage. Hits. Mage rolls an 8 and transfers the attack to a second duplicate. Duplicate disappears. Cleric's turn. Hmmm. His most powerful attack is Guiding Bolt, but now he's at melee range. The most he can do with his mace is 1d6+2. He DOES have an area effect spell - Word of Radiance. Yes! That'll work. He casts Word of Radiance (a cantrip spell I'm hoping they add soon). Deals 2d6 damage to each creature of his choice that he can see within 5 feet. So before casting it, he dances around one of the spiders and lines himself up so both spiders are next to him. If they fail a Con roll, they receive damage. If they succeed, they don't get hurt at all. Dang! Both succeed. No damage. No matter, Spiritual Weapon can be moved and attack as a Bonus action. It swings and hits. 1d8+5 damage for a total of 7. Not bad. Now it's lost 22 HP in a single round thanks to what? STRATS! Phase 2 only has 10 HP left. Phase 4 finally gets to go. Rushes around and attacks Cleric because he's closest. Critical Miss. Better luck next time.

So, after 3 more rounds, 1 Phase Spider is dead. 1 is down to 10 HP, but the rest are full health. Various party members used various strats to get to this point, and not a single party member is hurt. Will they need a Long Rest after this fight? Probably not. They've used some spell slots, but nothing major. Short rest would probably do it. Shoot! The cleric probably didn't even need to use any. He just chose to because that was the strat he was using.

Let's see how BG3 would do.

Round 2. Phase 1 is dead. Mage Misty Step away from the 3 Phase Spiders. Fireball... because, why not? You can long rest after and get all your spell slots back. Rolls 30 damage from 8d6. DC is 14 for this wizard. Rolls are 14, 20 and 3. So, half damage to Phase 2 and 3, but 4 takes full. Half damage is 15. Full is 31. Wait. How many did they all have to begin with? 32 HP. So, Phase 2 and 3 only have 1 HP. Phase 4 is dead. Fighter's turn. Fires longbow. Hits. Phase 2 is dead. Fires using 2nd attack. Hits. Phase 3 is dead.

Great fight! [sarcasm] Lots of fun. Mage did most of the work, and all it took was Cleric to expend a single potion by throwing it. Then he used a single spell slot to cast Healing Word spell. Yeah sure. Mage expended a bunch of spell slots, but is that really a big deal with long rest spamability? No. Just long rest after the fight - wash, rinse and repeat.

Tell me that BG3 won't get boring once you get to level 5 and beyond.

Dunno ... didnt read it ...
I told you allready and in several occasions that i dont care about your fabricated scenarios. :-/

How should i say it ...
The problem that your scenarios create is that there is MANY (and i mean REALLY MANY) possible actions in every step ...
But since you are playing all characters, you are allways picking those that exactly suits your desired outcome ... you even get one step futher, since you are deciding who will hit, who will miss, how many damage they do ... everything.

What im trying to say is that everyone can be chessmaster who is giving Checkmate with 3rd move ... when playing against himself. :-/
But the value of such game is none.

First, how else shall I give you solid examples but to pull out some dice, and play out scenarios that, by the way, are similar to BG3 scenarios? I don't decide who hits. I roll for everything using the scenarios, and you'd know that if you read them. I try to be legit fair as much as possible because being not fair helps no one. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

And the scenarios are, naturally me deciding who will do what. How else should I do it? Are we going to get a D&D session going? I try to legit make the scenarios as intelligent as possible, making decisions that would make sense and be solid strategic decisions based on the different versions of D&D being used. I even tried to keep the scenarios as legit similar as possible, so it would be as unbiased as possible.

Interesting that you asked for an example, I gave you 2, and you didn't read them. Hmmm. Then you just write them off as me creating my own biased scenarios.

Let's talk Rogue next. I was going to discuss more of the cleric classes, but since they're not in the game presently, and since I really don't have the time, I've decided to move on to another class.

Rogues are one of the most destroyed classes in the game. For starters, there is no Expertise or Thieves' Tools Proficiency. This is huge because it sets them apart from other classes. Though anyone can pick a lock, not everyone is proficient with lockpicks. On top of that, rogues can take expertise with Thieves' Tools for an even bigger buff to picking locks.

Expertise allows a rogue to choose either two skills or one skill and Tool Proficiency to receive double proficiency. This is at level 1. At level 6, you're supposed to get two more.

What does that look like? Cleric has Dex +2 and no proficiency with Thieves'Tools. +2 to pick a lock. Ranger has +2 Dex and proficiency with Thieves'Tools, so +4. Rogue has +2 Dex and expertise with Thieves' Tools, so +6. Considerably better than everyone else and much better at picking locks. So, if I give my thief expertise in Stealth and Tools, with Dex +2, both of those abilities should be at +6. This makes for a more classic Rogue and gives the Rogue extra value on the team.

So, this means that a DC 15 lock, which is supposed to be a rather difficult lock, is only a 9 or higher for the Rogue, but a 11 or higher for the proficient Ranger, and 13 or higher for the unproficient Cleric. Even though they can all pick a lock, it is much easier for the Rogue with expertise.

Sneak attack. This is broken currently in the game. It is really not that hard. If I hit an enemy, I can increase the damage using sneak attack once per turn as long as either my character has advantage or there is an ally in melee range with the target. So, if I put Lae'zel up next to a goblin, Astarion should be able to use sneak attack. If the enemy does not know he is there because he is sneaking, he should get sneak attack. If he has advantage of any kind he should get sneak attack. It can be either for primary weapon attack or secondary, depending on what the Rogue decides.

Currently, I still can't get sneak attack on a lot of different attacks that I attempt to make with a rogue. I'm not sure what they did to it, but they have definitely messed it up.

One thing I will say though that I do like is that if you fail to pick a lock you can try again. I do not like how in Solasta, for example, if I fail the roll, that's it. You get one attempt per character, and if you fail you're done. There is no way to get it open after that unless you use the Knock spell. That said, I do wish they would give you less thieves tools, because it is too easy to just keep working at a lock until you succeed. There's hardly any consequence for failure, so why even bother?

My suggestion for picking locks would actually be that if you fail by five or more, then your lock pick breaks and you have to use a different thieves tools. If you fail by 1-4, you can try again with the same kit. Then don't allow players to find 10 plus Thieves'Tools lying around all over the place or have the ability to buy them like candy.

I also suggest that sneak attack must be fixed and made like the 5erules call for. And, for the love of God, give them expertise.

I don't even mind that there is no tool proficiencies. Using the sleight of hand skill is okay, as it combines two thief abilities into one. That does simplify it a little bit more and I don't think it is overly unbalancing.

I'll talk more about the two subclasses later.

Potions as an action make them useless.
What is the point of using the potion in combat in a situation where the next enemy blow will take more life than you managed to heal.
It is one of the most popular homebrews for a reason.
Healing in 5e was weakened to the ground then it is no longer 3e times where cleric was essential.
Cleric shouldn't be a mandatory character. I would not like to have one slot in the team permanently blocked.

Why do a lot of people forget Armor Class? The point is that unless you're really unlucky, your characters shouldn't be getting hit every round... Or unless you're a squishy mage who fails to cast defense spells to increase your survival chances. But, aside from that, I get that many people do Potion Bonus as opposed to Action. That one homebrew isn't breaking things. As I said, it's ALL the homebrew combined.

I do sometimes wonder just how many DM's ACTUALLY allow Bonus Potions. Maybe I should look it up since everyone is saying it.

I'll start adding links here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/k3vxw8/should_drinking_a_potion_require_an_action_or_a/
https://dmdavid.com/tag/rethinking-potions-as-a-bonus-action/
https://blackcitadelrpg.com/drinking-potion-5e/
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/du...only/76374-using-potions-while-in-battle

I remember the AC, but it doesn't make the potions better, but rather it makes them worse.
As a rule, it is better to try to kill the opponent to finish the fight faster and thus take less damage than to try to heal yourself, because if you take damage you will lose more than you gained.

Am I the only DM who gives players better than basic potions as they level up?

Potions of Healing

Potion of … Rarity HP Regained
Healing Common 2d4 + 2
Greater healing Uncommon 4d4 + 4
Superior healing Rare 8d4 + 8
Supreme healing Very rare 10d4 + 20

Basic are for level 1-3ish, Greater for 4-5ish, Superior for 6-8ish, Supreme for everyone higher. Something like that.

Generally speaking, standard healing potions are NOT intended to be a combat healing option. They can get someone on their feet again, and serve that end for non-healers and those without other magical or race/class related means of restoring hit points, but outside of that they are weak enough that in most situations, yes, they are a very inefficient action that is not supposed to be appealing or long-term viable.

Standard healing potions are intended to be emergency items for those without other means, and for topping up out of combat when you cannot afford the time to take an hour's rest.

For the record, in 5e, clerics are in no way essential; most classes have a small reserve of self-maintenance options that can help tide them over, and many classes have access to viable healing besides (At this stage, in fact, I believe that all caster classes have a means of accessing the healing sub set, with the possible exception of wizard, because theurgist wizard never passed the UA testing... which was a pity, because it was neat). Between what each class and character brings to the group, any class combination can fare well against challenges of appropriate magnitude regardless of their class make-up, as long as they play too their strengths (there are exceptions of course - you would not pit your all-caster group of level 11s against a rakshasa, for example)

Interesting. You know, it seems based on my research that there is a common misconception that DMs, in general, allow potions to be used as Bonus action. Sounds like the idea became popular largely because in Critical Role, they used this homebrew. The reasoning was that they had 7+ party members, and combat would take a long time. Having to wait 30 minutes to act only to drink a potion was not fun. So they adopted the bonus rule so people could at least do SOMETHING else on their turn.

Ultimately, however, seems there are MANY who use the true rules. That said, from what I've been seeing, it's really probably about even as far as how many allow Bonus versus how many do not. Many do not allow it because Jeremy Crawford said using a potion is like casting a healing spell. It's a spell in a bottle. Others agree it makes no sense to be fighting a monster, "Wait. Hold up. Gotta pause a sec to drink a potion. Thanks.". Battle resumes.

That said, many do find that players don't use potions much at all if it is an action. So they allow it as bonus. I must say, I don't use them hardly at all in Solasta, but that's because I have a Paladin and Druid who can heal. In a previous Solasta, I totally used them, even though they were actions. Hey, when your only healer is a Paladin, you buy and use potions, Action or Bonus. That's just the way it goes.

GM4Him

Okay, because you seem to be pretty much the only one that thinks the system that Larian set up with potion use renders healers unnecessary and like throwing out wild scenarios I want to issue you a challenge:

I want you to do a complete run of the Early Access content, but with a few rules:

1) The Character you create cannot have healing magic (So IF you make a Druid or Cleric you must prepare your spell list without the healing spells available)

2) You can choose any party make up you like, but if you keep Shadowheart in the party you must like wise prepare her spell list to exclude healing magics and cannot have Gayle learn healing magic. (You may however use the fighters second wind ability and the warlocks ability to regain health on a kill)

3) You MUST do ALL the fights... no using dialog to talk your way out of them or avoid any of the fights. Yes, you can use the dialog to turn the Gnoll against her own pack and you can recruit Gutt to help you kill the Duergar (if you are playing the "good" route) and recruit Brithvar to fight Nere, but when it comes to the oath breakers in the toll house you MUST side with Karlach (since slaying her would mean you are avoiding a fight... unless you choose the slay her and the Paladins...)

4) You may take as many long or short rests as you like.

5) you must record it.

The goal here is that you do all of the hardest fights available with only potions of healing, potions of greater healing and any scrolls of healing you find/buy and PROVE that the potions system implemented have rendered healers as useless as you say.

IF you can get through it all of that with just potions and scrolls, then you have proven your point and are absolutely right, BUT if I am correct... by the time you reach Nere you will be nearly out if not completely out of healing potions making that fight damn near impossible to do even with Brithvar's help. Honestly, I am guessing even with a good stock of healing potions and scrolls available to you even the Githyanki fight will prove to be a hell of a lot harder if not neigh impossible.

Honestly I don't really expect you to take this challenge, but I kind of want you to put your money where your mouth is...

I literally always need healing potions and a healer otherwise we all die because if they healer is hurt I need to heal them and also be aware of spell slots :P

Brilliant idea!