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Originally Posted by Sven_
(Mind you, I also don't understand how like three decades after the hype surrounding Interactive Movies cinematics are seen as such a hot thing again, especially in AAA gaming).
When was the last time games were sold on graphics? I can't recall many "gameplay looks limited" riddicule campaign, but show low quality model in a trailer and internet will loose their shit. With PS3/XBOX360 era gaming raised entire generation of gamers with high production value games and little interactivity. Larian is way, way above the ambition of your high budget project like that. As to why people spend money on PC/consoles and games only to watch a bad movie is beyond my understanding. I also just played Guardians of the Galaxy and fairly enjoyed it and it is just that, so... grin

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Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Originally Posted by etonbears
From the SoA credits I would (gu)estimate Bioware was about 100 headcount at the time

BG1 had about 30 people (90 man-years) per Ray Muzyka. I imagine BG2 was not that different.

https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/-i-baldur-s-gate-ii-i-the-anatomy-of-a-sequel

Sounds like there was even more sub-contracting than I was guessing, given that one site lists 350 game credits for BG1 smile

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Originally Posted by machinus
Originally Posted by etonbears
I feel Larian have been perfectly clear about BG3 development. Unfortunately, interpretation of the meaning of language can be slippery, and judging by a number of the comments in this thread (and others), some people on these forums think they have been misled.

Yes, the meaning of language is very slippery, like when you name your game "Baldur's Gate 3" but then decide not to create any more of its franchise-defining gameplay, or market your game off the official D&D license but then ignore critical class and mechanical features of D&D. Man, it's so weird that some people on these forums "feel misled" by a company that spends enormous amounts of development time on producing a 3D fantasy drama, but no time on including basic mechanical features that brought the actual fans of D&D and Baldur's Gate here in the first place.

I can't wait to watch 100 hours of carefully cinematographed 3D fantasy drama, and then not be able to choose when to cast Shield as a reaction during the game part of the game.

Do you mean that upon hearing the hallowed words "Baldur's Gate 3", any analytical or critical thinking skills you may have had were immediately wrapped in cotton wool and stuffed in a drawer somewhere?

Nothing about the way the original games were made, nor direct continuity of their story, would have survived the transition of 20 years of technical improvement, 100 years of world lore and 3 editions of game rules that were needed to meet the requirements of WotC, who appear totally comfortable with the game Larian are making.

Neither was there any hint from the numerous gameplay examples available before EA that the game was likely to resemble BG1/2 in any meaningful way, nor did Larian or WotC ever try to insinuate the game would resemble BG1/2.

The only place where language was an issue is the fact that Swen is not a native English speaker, and sometimes uses scentence construction that can be misinterpreted, particularly by those inclined to do so, often through wishful thinking.

The game/development has many flaws, and will struggle to please everyone, but this was all clear before EA, rather than the result of any concerted attempt by WotC and Larian to dissemble.

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Originally Posted by Sven_
One can only imagine the dream project if that man extra power for once weren't put into "cinematics" but actual core RPG stuff such as added choice, player agency, world reactivity/interactivity and all that stuff that actually does aim to emulate tabletop freedom as opposed to a hollywood movie / Netflix show experience. (Mind you, I also don't understand how like three decades after the hype surrounding Interactive Movies cinematics are seen as such a hot thing again, especially in AAA gaming).

Not gonna happen anytime soon though, people obviously like that stuff (and developers/publishers think it's a safe bet due to movie and Netflix shows being so popular). laugh

Unfortunately, since games and other media have converged, the cinematic aspect is a major selling point which justifies the development resources spent. If you cut the cinematics, you would have a reduced market and therefore a reduced budget.

But even if you had a large budget for worldbuilding, games would still not improve much, because the algorithms for decision-making in games don't come close to the imagination and creativity of a good DM.

This is mainly due to the fact that computers are actually stupid. Blazingly fast at being stupid, but still stupid. They will only do what developers tell them, meaning that everything that happens must be pre-defined to some degree or other. A paradigm shift in decision-making and several other areas of development will be needed before gameplay improves very much.

Maybe within the next decade, but I wouldn't hold your breath waiting. frown

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Originally Posted by etonbears
Do you mean that upon hearing the hallowed words "Baldur's Gate 3", any analytical or critical thinking skills you may have had were immediately wrapped in cotton wool and stuffed in a drawer somewhere?

Insulting people because you can't formulate a good argument does not make you sound convincing. It does the opposite, unfortunately smirk

My post stands.

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Originally Posted by machinus
Originally Posted by etonbears
Do you mean that upon hearing the hallowed words "Baldur's Gate 3", any analytical or critical thinking skills you may have had were immediately wrapped in cotton wool and stuffed in a drawer somewhere?

Insulting people because you can't formulate a good argument does not make you sound convincing. It does the opposite, unfortunately smirk

My post stands.

My apologies if you felt slighted, my sarcasm was unnecessary.

It has been said many times since the game was announced that a different name should have been chosen, but until all the story links are seen in the released game, that will be difficult to judge. Certainly the name is a marketing/branding tactic to generate interest, and you wouldn't expect Larian to be anything but positive about what they are developing, but that does not mean they are lying.

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Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Originally Posted by etonbears
From the SoA credits I would (gu)estimate Bioware was about 100 headcount at the time

BG1 had about 30 people (90 man-years) per Ray Muzyka. I imagine BG2 was not that different.

https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/-i-baldur-s-gate-ii-i-the-anatomy-of-a-sequel
Yup. No idea why some people seem to think BG1 and BG2 were "massive productions" in terms of development team.

I mean, they were heavy weights inside the (THEN) niche genre of CRPGs, but they've never been massive blockbusters with triple A budget.

I read somewhere that BG2 budget was around 5 millions or so. Make it 10 assuming that number was downplayed to an extent.
BG3 is still probably going to be in the ballpark of costing 7-10 times as much.

Which, to be clear, doesn't necessarily mean it will translate in a better game.
Especially not with that control scheme.

AH-HA! Did you guys really think I'd miss my chance to take another gratuitous jab at the toilet chain???

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Originally Posted by Tuco
AH-HA! Did you guys really think I'd miss my chance to take another gratuitous jab at the toilet chain???
aargh

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Originally Posted by etonbears
Unfortunately, since games and other media have converged, the cinematic aspect is a major selling point which justifies the development resources spent. If you cut the cinematics, you would have a reduced market and therefore a reduced budget.

Fewer cinematics? That would result in a game which is closer to a game or perhaps a novel (given the sheer amount of text); in other words, a game which is closer in tone to the actual series which it claims to respect. What a shocking idea in this day and age, huh?

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Which, to be clear, doesn't necessarily mean it will translate in a better game.
Especially not with that control scheme.

AH-HA! Did you guys really think I'd miss my chance to take another gratuitous jab at the toilet chain???

Not even slightly molified by the new grouping/stealth buttons, Tuco?

Adding shift-click selection and a "create group from selection" button on the portraits "panel" would probably be enough for me, then the chain would be just another way to do something that I can ignore. I can live without rubber-banding.

Last edited by etonbears; 27/03/22 08:44 PM. Reason: spelling
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Originally Posted by etonbears
It has been said many times since the game was announced that a different name should have been chosen, but until all the story links are seen in the released game, that will be difficult to judge. Certainly the name is a marketing/branding tactic to generate interest, and you wouldn't expect Larian to be anything but positive about what they are developing, but that does not mean they are lying.

But this is the name the game has. The name is part of the product. It defines the genre, sells the reputation of the previous games in the franchise, and sets high expectations for the product that customers will receive. No developer is entitled to traffic in other people's reputations without consequences. I don't think anyone expected another 2D-based late 90s game for "3." I did not, and I was actually hoping that they would update the engine and the interface to be more modern. There are plenty of ways this could have been a great, but different, "3." I did not expect it to look the same as the other two. But, the many types of fans who got excited about this game did expect an open-world, customizable RPG with mechanics faithfully adopted from the D&D system. There are some basic qualities to D&D games that Larian knows people are going to assume are in it. There is a reason why Swen worked so hard to earn WotC's blessing to use the intellectual property. Swen knows the enormous value of the brand on the product he is going to sell. Larian could have made DOS3, but they chose not to do that. They chose to develop a game under a different franchise specifically because of the value of its reputation. It doesn't matter what Larian has added to their expectations with press releases or magazine interviews. Calling your product "Baldur's Gate 3," and being licensed by WotC, gives every customer the reasonable expectation that the game will include the class and combat mechanics of some edition of D&D, character customization, an open-world quest system, and importantly, the class and item balancing from 50 years of iteration of that game system.

The reasonable expectations of fans, at all levels of familiarity with this product's development (remember, this game has not been released yet), are not being met, and not due to a lack of time. This is being done on purpose. The production quality of this game is very high, but the developer is clearly more interested in writing stories and creating dramatic moments than in producing deep gameplay. This is less of a game than it is an epic machinima soap opera. I couldn't be less interested in that, and a lot of people who are fans of "Baldur's Gate," "D&D," or just PC games also could not be less interested in that. The primary appeal of the D&D roleplaying system is the ability for players to utilize a deep, balanced, customizable character system to create their own unique player characters, and specifically not to replay tired archetypes and not to re-enact someone else's story. D&D is about gameplay, not drama. Gameplay is what matters in creating videogames, and the distraction of drama and cinematics is a trap that will sink the reputation of "Baldur's Gate" too. Larian is following in the footsteps of Squaresoft in making a pre-written, railroad, cinematic-heavy game which focuses on drama and visual effects, which inevitably all come at the expense of the parts of the game that actually matter. I'm very disappointed every time I read the updates from this game, and see the huge amount of man hours that are being put into the parts of the game that don't really matter, while basic components have still not been included years into the development process.

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I place the lion's share of the blame on Hideo Kojima wink.

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Originally Posted by etonbears
Originally Posted by Sven_
One can only imagine the dream project if that man extra power for once weren't put into "cinematics" but actual core RPG stuff such as added choice, player agency, world reactivity/interactivity and all that stuff that actually does aim to emulate tabletop freedom as opposed to a hollywood movie / Netflix show experience. (Mind you, I also don't understand how like three decades after the hype surrounding Interactive Movies cinematics are seen as such a hot thing again, especially in AAA gaming).

Not gonna happen anytime soon though, people obviously like that stuff (and developers/publishers think it's a safe bet due to movie and Netflix shows being so popular). laugh

Unfortunately, since games and other media have converged, the cinematic aspect is a major selling point which justifies the development resources spent. If you cut the cinematics, you would have a reduced market and therefore a reduced budget.

But even if you had a large budget for worldbuilding, games would still not improve much, because the algorithms for decision-making in games don't come close to the imagination and creativity of a good DM.


Bethesda seem to disagree (actually, them neglecting the trend of "games as movies" is the one thing I still give them credit for). laugh New Vegas also sold a couple millions, and that game's only cinematics were a bunch of intro videos. I would also cite Arkane, but their last few games kinda tanked sadly, so....

Even with limited computing power and AI, there's still a dozen things I'd rather much see that money spend, in particular for RPGs. Even stuff such as open-ended quest design takes a whole lot of ressources and time (which is why smaller projects such as Pillars Of Eternity typically have only a few truly branching questlines, e.g. Raedric's hold in PoE 1 https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=10231 ).

But this isn't my world, so there. This approach has clearly proven successful for others also, e.g. Bioware, CD Projekt et all who clearly see games as sort of movies themselves. In fact the one hope I have for BG3 is that it bridges the massive gap that's been opened up since, also in between audiences. It has the style of presentation of all those "blockbuster games" in that every tiny dialogue must be a movie sequence -- but unlike The Witcher 3, say, it doesn't blatantly play or witcher sense itself outside of the inevitable combat, still favoring player agency, imagination and even systems driven gameplay which far better suits a truly table-top gaming translation. smile

Last edited by Sven_; 27/03/22 09:50 PM.
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Originally Posted by etonbears
Not even slightly molified by the new grouping/stealth buttons, Tuco?

Adding shift-click selection and a "create group from selection" button on the portraits "panel" would probably be enough for me, then the chain would be just another way to do something that I can ignore. I can live without rubber-banding.
Well, I mean... It's at very least better than it used to be.
Which isn't enough to make it good.

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I dont even know if you guys are playing the same game. So many complainers ... wow. In my opinion, we are lucky to have larian develop this game, which other team would put this much effort and love into a game? Complaining about the process? This game is probably the most complex game that has been made in the history of games ... no other game has that many lines of text, options, and consequences to the game. Ask yourself where is your lack of satisfaction coming from? Are you trying to use the game as a means to find meaning in your own life ? Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Ange
which other team would put this much effort and love into a game?

Any other game company taking on a project of this magnitude would. Many would treat it with a great deal more respect than larian is doing. Many would not be simply looking at it (by their own admission in official interviews) as a chance to pimp their own brand and style. Many players and testers have, too date, voiced opinions that they would prefer a company who cares more about the franchise itself to be doing this, based on what we've seen thus far.

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This game is probably the most complex game that has been made in the history of games

No it's not. Empty hyperbole adds nothing of value to any conversation.

In terms of cause and effect, dialogue choices and consequences, the game is actually very simple, and remarkably straight forward; the individual set pieces are isolated from each other and exist in closed vacuums with the exception of individual specific vector references to specific other set pieces, and the whole kit is actually fairly easy to map out. You have surprisingly little impact on the flows of events, compared to what it tries to make it seem like you do - it's cleverly built in a way that makes it seem, over the course of two to three runs through, that you have major impact on lots of things. Do a few more, however, and the seams become very visible, and you realise that, actually, you don't. This game is not nearly as complexly interlaced in its choice mechanics as it pretends to be - but it does it cleverly enough to fool most players on one or two play throughs, which is all that matters in ~90% of cases. If you've not noticed that, then you're most likely within that ~90% of players, and that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that! You're the target audience, and you're welcome to enjoy the game in your own way - but EA may not be the place for you.

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... no other game has that many lines of text, options, and consequences to the game.

This is patently untrue as well.

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Ask yourself where is your lack of satisfaction coming from?

There are a great many threads on this forum that go into quite a lot of analytical depth and detail about the various elements of the game and its implementation, with honest and fair examinations of how things have been done, and what consequences those choices have on the rest of the game, as well as the various problems they cause. A great many people have devoted a great deal of effort compiling a large amount of very thoughtful feedback on why the game's current design iteration and direction is concerning and dissatisfying for different reasons. I'd strongly encourage you to look over them and read thoughtfully on the various topics that are discussed here, to help you understand where people's dissatisfaction is coming from - we're far from a united bunch, and even the most frequent and in-depth posters here don't agree on everything, but there are general trends of things that the greater majority of vocal testers have all reached the same or similar conclusions about.

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I dont even know if you guys are playing the same game.
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Are you trying to use the game as a means to find meaning in your own life ? Thanks.

Facetious rhetoric and ad hominem attacks add nothing to any conversation - we'll all have a much more positive discussion if you (and everyone else ^.^ ) could pleases refrain from this.

Last edited by Niara; 28/03/22 01:40 AM.
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Originally Posted by Ange
Are you trying to use the game as a means to find meaning in your own life ? Thanks.

...was that a not-so-subtle "Get a life."? We're all in the same boat and you're complaining about other people rowing the oars.

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To see Niara quoting like this somehow makes me happy. laugh


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
To see Niara quoting like this somehow makes me happy. laugh

I see Niara's and Saito's posts now compared to a year ago and it makes me sad. :-(

We all thought DnD had a chance back then. Criticism was not only constructive but presented intelligently with detailed DnD rules and explanations showing how small homebrews can affect wider things etc.

We were all less jaded back then. hehe

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