Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Nautiloid Complaint

I do not like being unable to access my party's spells/armor configurations in the introduction. I have yet been unable to defeat Zhalk + the 2 Cambions without cheesing (Edit: or building specifically for) the fight since the rework.

Previously, I would be able to give Shadowheart a crossbow and prepare Protection from Evil and Good, which turned out to be fundamental in completing the fight at the bridge.
Most of those fun toys you pick up while making your way to the bridge become hoarded goods when your party cannot use them at all appropriate times.
Disallowing the option to use items from party members cuts down the input players have with regard to spot healing (throwing potions), map control (void bulbs), constant minimum damage output (spiked bulbs), and maximum damage output potentials (scroll/thrown weapon usage).

Maybe someone made the case that a bunch of random people on a ship aren't about to start working together to survive, though I find that a pessimistic point of view especially given the circumstance. You wake up on a half-broken, flying ship and find other like-minded (tadpole reference) individuals (motivated to survive, potentially free-thinking). Everyone can read each other's mind. This would, in theory, mean that one visualization of a battlefield could be shared to everyone present, and collective thought would more than likely occur, sparking optimal usage of all available equipment to survive and achieve survival. If I could read your mind and found that you didn't want to help, I wouldn't bring you along - simple as that - your potential use is sub-optimal without the will to perform.

I see your point and I agree that being able to do these things probably should be allowed in the game, if only for player convenience. I think you're reading a bit too much into how much the tadpole can actually do though. So far we've only seen brief flashes of telepathy between the party, nothing as expansive as what you're suggesting. I don't think there needs to be that kind of in-depth explanation at play. It's enough tojust let it be allowed without needing an in-story justification. If you're talking about in-story justifications, then one could argue that everything going on is happening really fast, it's all chaotic and crazy and everyone is just trying to survive, so there just isn't time for anything more than surface level cooperation. In contrast after the Nautiloid, when there's less going on and characters can actually talk and figure things out ahead of time.

Also I would argue that players really shouldn't be able to defeat Zhalk and the Cambions without cheesing. The point of that part is to run to the control panel in a mad dash, with the demons there as big, imposing threats that our characters should want to avoid. I feel like making it too easy for players to beat them would defeat the point. At level one, I think we shouldn't even think about tackling that sort of fight without thorough mastery of the systems and abilities at our disposal.

I hear what you're saying, but I keep tripping over the fact that you're complaining over not being able to murder two half devils which a full grown mindflayer is struggling with who, by the way, has more than tne 7-9 paltry hit points my character has. That thing looks at me funny or sneezes in my direction and I'm toast. It makes perfect sense that you cant get your characters to work together to kill those things, because they realistically realize that they are severely outmatched and their best chance of survival is to do what the mindflayer said and use the transponder to gtfo of there.

It is not uncommon for DMs to make certain things impossibly difficult in order to steer the party in a different direction. Particularly a direction that better suits their level.

If Larian wants to force us to run ... there are other (and much better) means to achieve that ...

Personaly i would choose endless spawn ...
Since the event triggers ... every next round another two Cambions would show up ... i gues no party would stick around longer than two turns.

Using that (forcing us to take certain direction) as an argument for restricting us from accesing essential mechanics of our companions, during TUTORIAL seems a little miss. :-/

That's a fair point about reading too into the capabilities of the tadpole, though I do believe it possible to project a battlefield frame to your teammates as seen by the connections the player makes with story NPCS and the description of seeing a sequence of events from their perspective.

The only way I have been able to beat Zhalk and the Cambions, and subsequently, the surviving Mindflayer, in Patch 7 is by using Protection from Evil and Good and Shield of Faith on the MindFlayer while abusing highground/sneaking bonuses, consumable usage, and terrain. I have to make a wizard with Chill Touch (Cambions have no resistance to Necrotic damage in this fight) and Protection from Evil and Good. The Mindflayer is considered friendly and is preoccupied by Zhalk (and the bonus Cambions while present), so for all intents and purposes the Mind Flayer becomes a Guardian with the capability of severe damage throughput. Buff and support the guardian while blasting the Cambions with Necrotic damage (as suggested by the scroll you find on the table next to the helm) and the fight becomes possible. The "fight or flight" response is directly tied to the player knowing their limits. The fight is still possible in its current state, it just takes longer when you can't maximize potentials (looking at those miss/miss/miss/critical miss chains with no loaded dice). My very first encounter at the helm, my reaction was, "I want to beat this fight" and I've completed the fight in almost every playthrough since in my nearly 1000 hours in BG3 (multiplayer excluded) - DM guidance would need to be more direct if they did not want me to complete the helm fight, and a heavy hand is easily bitten.

The problem I see with the endless waves is the concept that I could sit there and hit level 3 at the Helm by abusing the mindflayer guardian. If I got super lucky, maybe even hit level 4.

All I'm really asking for is the option to customize and have greater agency during the helm fight.

The fight used to be much nastier, as Zhalk had a frontal cleave - Gustav took me by surprise. If balancing is an issue, Larian would be able to re-instate weapon abilities. I'd say that the encounter is pretty fair for a tutorial, I just want to be able to use all of my kit - maybe lock story character armor, while leaving weapons unlocked?

Presuming you would manage to kill more than one?
(Dont forget that right now you only get 2 more ... in this case you would get 2 more in EVERY turn ... and while curent situation is that they are focused on Illithid ... nobody said they would be. )
Yes ... possibly ... if there would still be XP reward.
I know it would make a lot of people agry that they just wasted another hour killing one more cambion for nothing ... but, lets be honest with each other ... every single thinking creature in that room is BEGING you to forget the fight and conect the transponder ... and if you (not you as you, you as random player who ignores them and keep fighting) just refused, you had it coming.

Also as i said, that is only "one of many possible solutions" ...
Another one would be that fires on Nautiloid would also start spreading (no biggy for cambions BTW) ...
Another one would be that Dragon we see fly to the helm would be actualy timed event (imagine it as: 10 more rounds to conect the transponder before the ship crash) ...
And there is many more ... but im too lazy to write them down.

The point stands ...
There are far better ways to foce players take the direction you want them to go, than striping thir companions off their basic mechanics ... especialy in TUTORIAL! You know, that part of the game where you are supposed to learn to use those mechanics rather than never ben even told about them.

OH we know, but you arent first (and probably not even last one) mentioning this problem ... so i believe its safe to presume Larian knows ...
Only time will tell what (if?) they are going to do with it.

BTW:
Since first scroll you ever find in this game is Fire bolt ... what else would you like to have?

I think the removal of experience would be the best way to solve the problem if the helm fight is indeed a problem - I have seen the Mind Flayer cast Mind Blast 6 times in a row, and the average slap has been ~20 damage. If two additional Cambions joined each wave;

Lock them into the tunnel by using chairs/unconscious bodies/chests, at the entrance

Maintain Cambion cluster density using Void Bulbs and explosive force from fire/Caustic Brine/jet fuel if they escape (they shouldn't be able to with a good barricade).

Create enough of a gap where the only option for the Mind Flayer AI to connect an attack is by using Mind Blast (forced spell cycle).

The total amount of usable space would quickly diminish with +2 Cambions per wave, and it would in fact be easier to contain within AoE parameters with knowledge of the AI. The total number of Cambions capable of surrounding the Mind Flayer looks like 7, which you can shrink to 1 by positioning the Mind Flayer against a wall behind a chair or table. The nooks underneath the raised platforms come to mind. If Cambions continued to rush while the PCs remained in hiding, the only other AI target would be the Mind Flayer.

Another option I could see is a scripted Mind Blast/Stun, after which the Mind Flayer runs to connect the transponder itself. Even that can be avoided if you destroy the Mind Flayer before it reaches the console. This one would be the most realistic option if EXP is not removed. After X amount of turns, no cutscenes, no additional models engaged, nothing out of bounds added, scripted Mind Blast and bolt.

I think Larian would have to remove EXP values completely to make the fight not worth it, and that's not a rewarding experience for those of us that want to revel in every encounter within our alignments. In this game where replayability is a massive part of full story completion, adding another dynamic allows for more variety in gameplay.
The climactic event at the helm should be GLORIOUS! by all means as a culmination of learned technics in the tutorial.


A physical damage PC - I have yet been capable of completing the fight with a barbarian PC - I just get smacked around like nobody's business and the survivability chances shrink

I do enjoy that aspect of wizard though, so many scrolls available to learn early so I don't feel confined to my limited starter spells. I tend to find just over 100 gold in the tutorial which is enough for 2 of the awesome scrolls in the tutorial! I generalized spell caster by reducing to Wizard class - I think the Warlocks and Sorcerers have the option to start Chill Touch/ Protection from Evil and Good too.

I believe we actually agree on this point, RagnarokCzD

For lore purposes, Lae'zel CLEARLY is not afraid of Mind Flayers or Cambions - I believe her advice to connect the transponder is her being prone to hivemind suggestion through the tadpole - why wouldn't she try to contact the dragon rider or stay on mission? As far as Shadowheart goes, her impetus is purely survival outside of the hivemind - if you've played the game you know why. I think she'd characteristically take advantage of a winning scenario if it served her purpose. I wasn't convinced connecting the transponder was our goal in the first place.